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elcapfool
Big Wall climber
hiding in plain sight
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I think the problem is the second sentence of the first post.
"This story is true."
More accurately, it is based on a true story.
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John Vawter
Social climber
San Diego
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Although I'm pretty much in agreement with you Jody on this one, I would be in favor of giving this student the option to retake the course, or taking the F. The difference between your situation and hers is the difference in age, the danger to the public if you cheat, and the ideal of scrupulous honesty that we hold LEOs to.
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bringmedeath
climber
la la land
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Go in with guns blazing! That is as it sounds like he wants to be a maryter anyhow. Go out in style scandle storiers will follow and the school and father will fall far deeper than you friend fell.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
one pass away from the big ditch
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Give her the F.
Accept her apology.
Take the whole story to the papers.
Force the whole thing into the open.
Be sure to show the trail to the money.
I was a Grad Assistant for a philosophy course I was overseeing where two students were cheating in an examine. The funny thing was they were giving each other the answers to different questions. One had 21, the other had 22, etc. They were sharing their info to better each other's score. Collaborative.
When questioned about the incident during the exam, they both looked at me like I was the crazy one for stopping them and taking their exams away.
They were both recent immigrants from the same country. They were questioned further by the professor. The end result was that I learned that cultural mores really do play a part in ones perception. Individualism vs. collective assistance.
not sure where I'm going with this, but fascinating that perspectives can be so absolutely diverse.
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mark miller
Social climber
Reno
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I don't know what world some of you sheltered people live in, but Money talks and bullshite walks when your in the big leagues.
Unfortunately Pete's friend is stuck eating a shite sandwhich and he should Not jeopardize his career ( maybe to late) and lively hood of his family over this matter. It's obviously wrong, but throwing himself under the train isn't going to improve the situation.
The real world sucks and there are always going to be "privaleged individuals" who get away with a different set of rules. If her father is dumping 6 or 7 figures into the University don't you think he probably has his fingers in the Press and many other entites? If the professor gets black balled he's gonna end up pounding nails in Las Vegas to support his family. The university systems our so incestous and politcal, it's a shame he didn't have a better understanding of the game( or at least the cheating students connections) before this blew up and then he could have swallowed a smaller serving of dung on a cracker. There is no justice, only the illusion of it to help control the masses..
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 10, 2006 - 08:23am PT
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Thank you once again for your thoughtful responses. What you read above was Big Wall Theory. You now have the opportunity to read Big Wall Fact. You have read the lawsuit, so you have that side of the story. Richard has now posted his side of the story.
Please click her to read [url="http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=233144"]Richard's detailed account of exactly what happened.[/url]
I do not want you to answer on this post, but on the other post linked above because it contains Richard's account.
Now that you know both sides of the story, I repeat my question: "Would you lose your career to do what's right?"
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TradIsGood
Trad climber
Gunks end of country
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Aug 10, 2006 - 08:52am PT
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Both sides?! I count at least 9 major participants in this story.
And a minor cast of a score or so?
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Sep 25, 2009 - 02:59pm PT
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How is it I'm the first to think of this ? Is the girl HOT? Please reply urgent with pictures.
(nice thread revival) All those hypocrites will be rotting in hell, so payback is a bitch. To the question if I would have givin in....well, my boy is in school and he just went up to one of his teachers and asked if he could put off her class for later caused he'd dicked off and didn't get the work done, ....she said sure!
In this case, people often collaborate and ask others opinions at Universities, that end result often is put down on a paper that has a single persons name on it. Furthermore is very common and OK to give folks the benefit of the doubt, which means you tell the girl to never do it again and give her a 2nd chance to do the work. Would you not show some if this Christian compassion if the girl came from a poor family and was extremely apologetic?
That's probably what I'd have done.
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susu
Trad climber
East Bay, CA
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Sep 25, 2009 - 03:47pm PT
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At first I was going to say maybe let it slide. But after reading more about it, I'd say fight it. There are other options than continuing to work at this all too hypocritical a place. I mean, a little hypocrisy is kind a human... but this sounds like too much to stomach.
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Sep 25, 2009 - 07:11pm PT
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Are all you people oblivious the the fact that this is a thread from 2006?
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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Sep 25, 2009 - 08:18pm PT
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hey there matt, say, good note... :)
i suppose the "priciple" or points, etc, still live on, as to the applications in other-folks, lives... so, some good will overspill... ;)
say, though---i wonder how it all turned out though...
sure hope it was good for the man...
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Larry
Trad climber
Bisbee
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Sep 25, 2009 - 10:42pm PT
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So what was the rest of the story? Did he stand firm & get fired or cave in & profit?
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doktor_g
Social climber
Mt Shasta, CA
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Sep 26, 2009 - 11:56am PT
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Well, it's a tough choice. I know I've done things that I'm not proud of, but I think your friend is right for standing his ground.
Also, I think a big fat lawsuit against the school and the benefactor (the father) which would be costly both financially as well as publicity-wise. I think that if the PhD is tenured or no, he should stand his ground. I think he is certainly on the right side of University policy, morality, ethics and public opinion. Since that's the case he stands to gain a great deal by making the right decision. If he's fired... go to the press and hire a lawyer. It's a big easy win. Then the University (and the Dean) oh (and the benefactor) are F*#K3D.
Tell that rich dlck to go f himself too.
Dr G
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Leo Gokovski
climber
AZ
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Sep 26, 2009 - 02:29pm PT
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Pete,
Is your friends' academic honesty important enough for him to risk his career, or at the very least complicate his life for the short while? (financial difficulties, finding another job, moving to a different town, etc..) Would he like to be tenured and associated with an institute that is somewhat corrupt?
Remember, tenure is not automatic, and each professor is scrutinized before tenure is granted. in other words, even if he does comply with the deans' demands, he may still not become tenured. if that is the case, is it still worth to bend to the will of the corrupt and become corrupt yourself ?
Secondly, does he think that by standing his grounds he may cause more good that if he "let it slide" and educate scores of students in ethics, morality and provide them with the skills necessary to search for their truths?
I think that once your friend will answer those questions, he will have his course of action.
Your friend from Virginia/Trip
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Homer
Mountain climber
Santa Cruz, CA
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Sep 26, 2009 - 04:08pm PT
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"In theory there's no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is." Yogi Berra?
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rockermike
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Sep 30, 2009 - 11:17pm PT
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So PTPP, what happened anyway?
I say, choose your battles. This one isn't big enough to die over (or lose your job over). Ever work in a corporate setting? Have to make dirty decisions everyday. Can't be pure in this world unless you're a monk in a cave in the Himalayas.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Sep 30, 2009 - 11:23pm PT
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I'm sad to read this now. I know a law firm that may have taken this case pro bono...
What happened?
Look up the Thomas More Law Center. Good peeps who fight this kind of bullshit!!!!
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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isn't the story that Richard lost his job over this, sued and lost.
Not all endings are happy.
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sully
Trad climber
CA
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Your friend should stand his ground and in the future use turnitin.com for student essay submissions. I use it for my student essays and it nails frauds big time. My dad was a philosophy professor and his kind die on their swords. Good for your friend.
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