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Chicken Skinner
Trad climber
Yosemite
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 5, 2008 - 04:29pm PT
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Found another photo. This one is on the fourth pitch (pitch #9) of the endless diagonal dike, when the angle starts to subside.
Ken
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Ken,
I know you're holding out on the "secret" photos......
It's good for this to get a fresh look now. If it weren't for that edge and "Too Much Sideways!!" some of it looks downright climbable. Deceiving, I'm sure. I know how some TM routes that looked casual to me from below ended up bein' diaper changers.
Getting Jim's contact info will be cool, I'm moving to Albuquerque....
Buggs, yeah it's got some SSSS on it. Too much for us sufferers.
It would make us gag....
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Excellent thread Ken!
It should get somebody fired up once we replace the steel. Sweet looking climbing!
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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This should give you some idea of the amount of work. I spent lots of time studying this one from the 93 Reid guide.
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marky
climber
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what CS had to say about the falcon might be the most beautiful thing I've ever seen on the taco
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Bump..
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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bumpity bump.....
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Jello
Social climber
No Ut
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Incredible photos of an absolutely amazing line. The thing to do for the second ascent is to lead it ground-up, replacing the bolts as you go, with the second removing the old bolts and filling the holes with ground granite and epoxy. Also, the leader should have cable runners prepared to lower the protection points below the sharp edge of the dike, as has been suggested That would be a second ascent we could all celebrate. A true homage to the pioneers of a few decades ago. A little safer than the original climb, but safer through ingenuity and cunning, rather than accepting a step-down in style.
-JelloMouthsOff
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Jello,
Nice to see you posting on this.
"Cables as was suggested"...ahh you've been keeping an eye on the other thread. Too much of a statesman to leave a mark?...
Thanks Jello
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Right you are Warbler.
Do you see Chapman?
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adventurewagen
Trad climber
Seattle
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Instead of replacing the bolts I think the FFA party should go with about 20 screamers and just do the line as is. Then if it goes replace the bolts on the climb if they feel the need. If it doesn't leave it for the next guy to decide what to do with it.
Once I get my 5.13 slab climbing dialed I'm on this one. I need about 2 more years though ;) (of dreaming...)
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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The bolts can be replaced from above, in their original holes, by hiking to the top with enough ropes. This is how Roger Brown replaced the bolts on the top section of the Harding route a couple of years ago. I probably don't have to mention that it is a lot of work to carry that many ropes up there and back down, plus all the rapping, jugging, pulling and drilling!
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wildone
climber
Where you want to be
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I've already talked a bit with Ken about it. I'd love to put in some work on it!
I remember talking with Roger when I was working in the wilderness permit station in the valley and he came in to get a permit for his trip up there.
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adventurewagen
Trad climber
Seattle
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Like I said... Just bring a full set of screamers with you. No need to replace the bolts. Maybe just one per belay on the way up to be safe...
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wildone
climber
Where you want to be
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With the Ginsu dike below, salivating at the thought of munching your rope, I kinda don't think that the quality of the bolt or presence of a screamer, has a lot to do with the danger.
Maybe we could get tom frost to make us some five foot long power draws.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Ken, since you were on the FA, what do you think of the bolts on the climb? Think they need replacing before (or during) a 2nd? Do you remember the type of hardware on the climb (SS hangers?, button heads, yadda yadda).
TIA
PS. Nice running into you at P&J's yesterday...
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adventurewagen
Trad climber
Seattle
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I think the point really is... Don't fall.
How about just lead on double lines AND use screamers.
But don't rebolt or fix some permanent crazy 5ft draws on the climb just so a bold line with no repeats may see another one sooner.
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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The least invasive style of retrofitting doesn't seem that awful. "Don't fall" is a good place to start, being ballsy and having some long fall hazard is one thing, but an actual person getting the chop is worse than fixing it up a bit.
Edit: Wow, thanks Kevin. Your post surprised me. I know the difficulty of getting back into it. I've struggled a bit myself. As long as his hitching is going well, I guess that's a starting point. I hope to see him sometime.
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Chicken Skinner
Trad climber
Yosemite
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 7, 2008 - 11:39pm PT
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Someone asked about the bolts on Karma and it has been asked several times before. It has been a long time and my memory might not be completely accurate but, this is what I remember.
We used three types of ¼” bolts. We had compression bolts (buttonhead and or screwtops), taper locks, and machine bolts. We were poor and collected whatever we could find at the time. All of the pitches, except for the first two and the 4th and 10th, have three bolts at the anchors (usually one of each type because we had a limited supply and we figured one of them would hold). If you go the left hand variation which has the best chance of going totally free I think there are 67 bolts total counting anchors and 17 bolts for aid (not 180). 15 aid bolts and 25 bolts for anchors leaving 25 bolts for protecting the free climbing in 13 pitches. There is an occasional cam placement in a pocket once in a while though pretty rare and there are a few short crack sections. For the most part it is very exposed face climbing and terrifying to me because of the traversing nature.
I imagine the bolts are not in great shape after 22 years and probably need to be replaced. In fact they probably should have been replaced after we did the route. I talked with Dave and Jim last year and we all hope someone will repeat it and fix the route up. None of us appears to have the time and energy or desire to go back and do this. I think once was enough for us. I can still close my eyes and feel the fear, maybe it was terror.
The route is protected for the leader and not the follower. Dave and I think that should change and I bet Jim does too. I would like to see a few added and maybe a few removed keeping the count about the same. Talk to Dave, myself and Jim if you are interested in going up there and maybe it could be made better so that it gets done. The route has a very good chance of going totally free.
It is by far the wildest and most beautiful climb I have ever been on and is an experience I will cherish forever. Schultz really laid it on the line on this one. My only regret is that others haven’t been able to enjoy this climb yet. I hope that changes.
Ken
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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It sounds like it would be a formidable job for a public spirited person to replace all the bolts from above - unless you had a lot of friends willing to help with the project. But perhaps very worthwhile - the knowledge that the fixed anchors were reliable might attract more climbers. Even though there still aren't many bolts, and the falls, even with extenders and other razor-avoidance tactics, would still be terrifying.
I suppose it wouldn't be 'ethical' for someone to first replace the bolts on rappel, then climb the route. Whether they could be replaced on lead (by anyone) without making a mess is another question.
Would modern protection gadgetry and tricks help at all?
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