Missing friend in Mammoth Lakes area

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Messages 1961 - 1980 of total 2324 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
kenish

Gym climber
Orange County, CA
Sep 25, 2013 - 05:29pm PT
@jeg- It makes more sense that the pages Matt copied are intact in the book, not ones that were ripped out and re-inserted. Without jumping to conclusions, that still supports Mt. Lyell, which is intact. (Maybe I misunderstood the wording of your post).

I believe the timeline placed Matt at the library the afternoon before. Since he had easy access to a copier it would make sense that he would copy pages rather than tear them out....less paper to carry and less trauma to the book.
LAhiker

Social climber
Los Angeles
Sep 25, 2013 - 06:14pm PT
Kenish, I agree that the discovery that Matt seems to have photocopied pages of Secor as well as cutting them out gives a boost to Lyell and potentially to many other places.

However, if I recall correctly, 30 pages (those corresponding to the Ritter Range) were missing from his copy of Secor 3rd edition when it was retrieved. And assuming Arnold is right about the photocopied pages, those have been retrieved, either. So the question is why the pages were both cut out and photocopied. (Matt showed Arnold the photocopied pages on Friday, the 12th, so if he copied them at the library, it must have been on an earlier visit than on the 16th.) Who knows, Matt might have copied other things on the 16th...

Jill, I agree that that's weird. Did Matt ever show Arnold the book itself, or just photocopied pages? Was the picture of Lyell also among the photocopied pages he showed Arnold?

I can think of a few possible scenarios, none of which make complete sense:

1. Contrary to his previous practice, Matt didn't initially cut the 30 pages out of Secor (maybe he thought that was just too big a chunk? too many little pages? maybe he wanted bigger margins or backs on which to make notes?) but instead photocopied the pages -- and maybe others, such as the one on Lyell -- and then showed them to Arnold. At some point after that, the photocopies got messed up or lost so then he cut the same pages out of the book.

2. At some point before the 12th, Matt photocopied some of the 30 pages in Secor, as well as the one on Lyell, but didn't copy the whole shebang. Then he decided he needed some missing pages, so for consistency he just cut them all out of the book. (This doesn't seem that likely -- why not copy all of them to start with -- but might happen if he'd forgotten to take the book to the library or something.) Did Arnold say whether Matt appeared to have copied a big chunk of the book, or just a few pages?

3. Matt photocopied the pages from Secor, gave or shared them with someone else, and then cut out the pages for his own use.

4. Matt initially cut the pages out of Secor 3rd edition, lost them or they got messed up, and then (before the 12th) photocopied replacement pages from one of the the library's copies of Secor. (The library appears to have two copies of Secor 2nd edition. So then he would have had that rather than 3rd edition.)

4. Matt cut the pages out of Secor first and then arranged them on the copier to make a copy that consisted of fewer sheets of paper. (This doesn't make sense because what happened to the pages he cut out? He didn't put them back in the book. Also, that wouldn't really look the same as if you opened a book and pressed it down a copier. And unless you made back-to-back copies you'd end up with more total paper than you started with.)

5. ???

When you and John were climbing and hiking with Matt, what sorts of maps and guides did y'all use, besides Secor? Did Matt bring cut-out pages from Secor with him? Did he ever make copies or printouts of other things at the library?



kenish

Gym climber
Orange County, CA
Sep 25, 2013 - 06:37pm PT
@LA- Although Ritter Range pages are torn out, Mt. Lyell (not part of the Ritters) is intact in the book according to jeg . And it's what Arnold recalls could have been on the photocopied page(s) that Matt showed him.

On a tangent- why would Matt discuss the pages with a non-climber? Just being friendly, Matt as a teacher getting someone aware and enthused in the sport, etc? Was the nature of the conversation "Here's interesting places in the Sierras", "Here's where I plan to go next","Here's where I went last week"??
LAhiker

Social climber
Los Angeles
Sep 25, 2013 - 06:46pm PT
Kenish -- it's true that the Lyell page was in the photocopies, but so was at least one page with a picture from the Ritter Range -- the one of routes up Ritter and Banner with Clark and Half-Dome in the background that Tiffany just posted. And was Arnold and Matt's discussion of his dicey moments in the Minarets sparked by pages about the Minarets?

But yes, I think it's noteworthy that Matt had a photocopy of at least one page that was still intact in the book.
kenish

Gym climber
Orange County, CA
Sep 25, 2013 - 06:58pm PT
@LA- true....

Did Matt leave any photocopied pages at his campsite or in his car? I'm sure jeg would have mentioned it though. Random papers left at the campsite could have been discarded instead of being put into storage when the site was abandoned.
jeg

Social climber
center valley,Pa
Sep 25, 2013 - 08:36pm PT
He was invited to have dinner with arnold and his family at the camp site. July 12th was the second time they talked and that is when Matt started telling arnold about his climbs. Arnold seems like a very friendly guy who stirred up a conversation with matt.
Arnold did not recall a book just papers. We do not remember finding any loose papers of photo copied climbs.
Tiffany...did you see any in that brown paper bag???
My husband just remembers matt having the ripped out papers of climbs.
Arnold was really focused on that page 371 and not so much on Lyell.
He thinks he remembers page 395 but doesn't remeber that big glacier/snowfield on page 394 of Lyell Mountain.
He did show him some picturs of the Minarets when he spoke about them.
Supermama

Social climber
pa
Sep 25, 2013 - 08:59pm PT
Sorry I've been away. Work and grad school obligations have been mounting and needed attention. Interesting evidence gathered. I was hoping Arnold would have had more information. It makes sense that he photocopied either to share or lighten his load when climbing. Jill and John may remember his previous habits.

Tiffany...any luck with the Hotmail account? Since he spent the day before in the library, I still think there is a good chance there may be evidence in emails that may help to locate Matt.

Bethlehem, Matt's home town, is hosting the Nazareth/Freedom football game this weekend. The hosting high school is having a green out in honor of Matt. This was their idea and a very kind gesture. Two communities coming together as one to remember an incredible teacher and person. I thought you would all like to know how much Matt meant to his school and community. Stay strong and search on!

Supermama
LAhiker

Social climber
Los Angeles
Sep 26, 2013 - 01:03pm PT
Tioga, thanks for the insight. The second scenario, in which Matt might have taken both copies on purpose, makes more sense to me, because (unless you photocopy a different copy of the book) you have to make the copies first, otherwise you'd end up photocopying your worn cut-out pages...

But when considering where he might have gone, it's also interesting that he photocopied at least one page that wasn't cut out of the book.
LAhiker

Social climber
Los Angeles
Sep 26, 2013 - 02:01pm PT
Tioga -- makes sense. From Jill's description of what Arnold said, though, it sounds like for at least some of the pages, it looked like the book had been opened up and placed directly on the copier.

In any event, I'd say that (in conjunction with his conversation with Arnold) this would indicate that Matt had a fairly strong interest in the pages that were copied and possibly an even stronger interest in those that were both copied and cut out.

But that's still a lot of pages and a big area, so any additional evidence we can get, whether from Matt's conversation with Arnold, from his email accounts, from the library router, etc. -- would be helpful.
pacarockhound

Social climber
Escondido CA
Sep 26, 2013 - 04:08pm PT
But that's still a lot of pages and a big area, so any additional evidence we can get, whether from Matt's conversation with Arnold, from his email accounts, from the library router, etc. -- would be helpful.
-LA Hiker

Yes, that is what will be helpful:

1. Any more info from Arnold
2. Matt's Hotmail account (and another one?)
3. Library router
4. anything else?

Wondering if Paul Dostie has any insights, and if any hikers are going out this wkend, and where.....

I have posted Find Matt Greene flyer onto about 50 hiker/nature/etc. facebook pages....
Dan Watson

climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
Sep 26, 2013 - 05:07pm PT
The Mono County District Attorney's Office was queried about obtaining a search warrant or subpoena for the computer records from the Library in Mammoth Lakes that was used by Matt. Some believe that the sites he checked could provide some clues to where he was headed. Due to confidentiality laws, the Library could not release this information.

A representative of the DA's Office responded that there is no authority to issue a search warrant or subpoena for a missing person investigation.
Supermama

Social climber
pa
Sep 26, 2013 - 06:09pm PT
Dan...is this true for the Hotmail account on a home computer as well?

I had someone stalking me a few years ago and the chief of police was able to get a subpoena to release the phone and cell phone records. The man was caught and convicted thanks to the phone records.

Matt isn't able to do this himself, so shouldn't his next of kin be able to request this? This is an emergency, not someone who decided to go into hiding. Is there any way around this?

Supermama
Dan Watson

climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
Sep 26, 2013 - 06:37pm PT
If you were being stalked, Supermama, the circumstances were substantially different. That involved a criminal investigation and search warrants of phone records and e-mails accounts can be obtained. According to our District Attorney's Office, there is no legal authority for issuing a search warrant for a missing person investigation. I'm just going by what our DA communicated to our detective.
Supermama

Social climber
pa
Sep 26, 2013 - 06:51pm PT
Dan...Thanks...This is so sad...would Pa authorities have the same answer for a home computer? Is this consistent throughout the country? Should Tiffany and Ron try the Pa authorities? Other than physically searching this is the last hope for any clues as to where Matt went.

Supermama
LAhiker

Social climber
Los Angeles
Sep 26, 2013 - 06:57pm PT
Chief Watson, thanks for looking into this!

With respect to the library router records, sometimes states differ in their rules and approaches -- maybe a Pennsylvania DA would have a different take in relation to the missing person search that was opened there?

Regarding Matt's Hotmail account, if the Pennsylvania missing person search doesn't help there as well, QITNL posted a link here to Microsoft's "next of kin" process, which allows for the release of emails to the next of kin of someone who has died or is incapacitated. Though Microsoft has not been very helpful so far, perhaps at this point they could be convinced (by family members or media attention) to apply that process to Matt's account.

Edit: It looks like Supermama and I were thinking along similar lines.
pacarockhound

Social climber
Escondido CA
Sep 26, 2013 - 10:40pm PT
I am thinking if Bethlehem PA police filed the Missing Person report, and Matt is a member of their community, they might be more invested in making all this happen....?

If it comes down to media pressure, would the Bethlehem/Lehigh Valley newspapers have more influence than those in Mammoth Lakes...? (I have some connections at the Allentown Morning Call. I would be happy to contact them if that is what you decide to do.)

Or even better, national news.....such as Anderson Cooper or Rachel Maddow.
kenish

Gym climber
Orange County, CA
Sep 26, 2013 - 11:23pm PT
About a month ago I asked a paralegal friend here in CA how to obtain cell phone and email records.

Her advice matched Chief Watson's....also, she suggested the family get a Court Order. Recipient(s) must adhere to the Order regardless of any contracts, privacy policies, etc. She said the best bet is through a CA court. CA will honor Orders from another state due to reciprocal agreements. But it could take a lot of paperwork between states; she wasn't sure about PA. I posted her reply here, or sent a message to family or helpers in PA, don't recall which. That said, I'm not a legal expert but my friend is the "investigator" at her office and has a lot of "skip trace" experience.

Hope this helps.
tdg119

Social climber
Northampton, PA
Sep 27, 2013 - 09:08am PT
Last I talked to Detective Toronzi (PA Detective), he had gone through the case file and called me to follow up.

He issued a formal letter to the library asking them to detain the information on the server for the date in question until the necessary legal paperwork could be completed. That said, I do not know how far he's gotten with said legal paperwork.

When I spoke with him he was going to try some alternative avenues to get the other info (phone, email) prior to going through the process of search warrants. He was going to have one of the departments techies investigate the email further. Likewise, they were going to call Verizon and see where that got them.

This may work, it may not. They are doing what they can and no doubt have some sort of process they are adhering to.

I really do hope they don't run into the same issues w/ getting a warrant for the library info that CA did. If we run into the same issue in PA I will find a way to take it higher; it really sounds ridiculous to me.

I've heard many suggestions (namely on Facebook) about getting the story out there on Anderson or Nancy Grace. Believe me, I have tried to no avail. Media picks and chooses what it wants to display. We were lucky to even have gotten so far as national news for those few days.

In light of the snowfall in Mammoth Lakes, it's too dangerous for anyone to go out right now anyways so we can hope to obtain some info in time for the next "warm-up" that might allow some searches to more safety take a look.

~ Tiffany
Ikat

Social climber
Carson City
Sep 27, 2013 - 12:43pm PT
This is so distressing to hear the legal contortions the family has to go through to get any information about their missing son / brother.
Deekaid

climber
Sep 27, 2013 - 03:08pm PT
I agree... you can bet if they suspected Matt of committing a crime they would have access to those records like that
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