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TeddyKGBee
Trad climber
Chester Springs
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Topic Author's Original Post - Aug 2, 2013 - 12:57pm PT
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Details of Matt's Disappearance
Overview:
Matt was hiking/climbing with some friends in the Mammoth Lakes region and staying at the Shady Rest campground. Prior to his disappearance he happened upon some car trouble (his Subaru blew a head gasket). Matt stayed behind while his car was repaired at the Norco Goodyear repair shop with plans to meet up with friends in CO down the line. His last known phone call was to the repair shop around 4:30 pm on July 16th, with some texts to said friend around 8-8:30 that same night. Additionally, his last use of credit cards was a purchase in mammoth lakes that same day.
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When Matt did not meet up with friends as planned, it was discovered that his car was waiting, fixed, for over a week and he had not returned to the campsite where his gear was and where he had been paying day-to-day in antipation of his car being ready on the 18th and moving on. Matt's friends called the MLPD, and Detective Hornbeck then called my parents. Matt's cell phone is dead and/or untraceable. It's also possible that it's damaged or he is just somewhere he can't get a signal; there is no way to tell. The last signal was traced to a cell phone tower on top of Mammoth Mountain that was pointing north towards the main ski area.
Anyone with information about the whereabouts of Matthew Greene is requested to contact the Mammoth Lakes Police Department at (760) 934-2011 or the Mono County Sheriff’s Office at (760) 932-7549 X17.
Description of Matt:
Matt is 39, approximately 5'11", 155 lb, with blondish/brown short hair and blue eyes. He had a blue hat, and was probably wearing a long sleeve shirt with a darker (green/black) short sleeve on top.
Gear:
He was carrying a large black/white backpack (pictured directly in back of his car in the picture), yellow LaSportiva Nepal Extremes boots, crampons, and one ice axe. He did not have his tent, bivvy, sleeping bag, stove, or green heavy jacket indicating he only expected to do a day hike.
Last known contacts:
His Father via phone: July 16th
Friend via text (no info): night of July 16th
Thinking of Matt's possible hikes/climbs:
According to his interest, proximity, and limited information and conversations that he had with others prior to his disappearance, the search has focused on the Mt Ritter and Banner area, Minaret's. OnJuly 11th, he climbed Clyde Minaret, the same day he talked to a local about Ritter, banner, and the cross country hike between Ediza, Iceberg, Cecile, and Minaret lake.
There was also reason to believe that he was interested in climbing Lyell, but that was put into question as to the feasibility of transportation to from Mammoth Lake at an early enough time to do it in one day.
Experience:
Matt was a very experienced climber, hiker, runner, and in very good shape. He'll get on 5.10 trad with a good partner he trusts, but would tone it down when climbing with someone new. He does not free solo as a habit, but is very comfortable on 4th and easy 5th class. He has climbed a few of the classic routes in Tuolumne (west crack, regular route) and a couple of routes in Yosemite around Bishop's Terrace. I believe he has been on tenaya, cathedral and conness in past years. Matt also has a lot of experience in the backcountry and on long hikes. A 30 mile day would be nothing for Matt to consider. He would feel comfortable doing most solo hikes/climbs in the park and surrounding areas.
Search efforts to date:
SAR was out on both Ritter and Banner last weekend as well as had a chopper that covered some of the snow fields for about 30 minutes. The registries for Ritter and Banner were not signed by Matt. Without more information, they couldn't proceed with further efforts. Additionally, to make things harder, the area that is suggested as a possibility is in another county jurisdiction, which makes organizing the search more challenging for allocating resources.
Right now, SAR has put together some flyers asking for anyone and everyone hiking and climbing in those areas to CHECK the registries. Please do so if you're out there and help spread the word. This will be posted at all major climber hangouts in the region, but please help to spread this via word of mouth. The focus areas is in the Minerats right now since the limited info suggests that more so than any other location. However, there is always the possibility of the wildcard and he jumped the YART and headed into the park.
All permit offices were checked and those with permits from the time frame before and after he was missing are being contacted. Matt was known to get an early start, so it's very possible that he could have been the 1st one on the trail.
In addition to the backcountry search, his credit cards, cell phone (which is dead) are being tracked.
Some of Matt's friends are heading out west this weekend to continue to search. If anyone is interested in helping, please let me know and I will get you the details as soon as I have them.
Other Resources:
1. Facebook page: www.facebook.com/findmattgreene
2. Flickr Page with lots of photos: http://www.flickr.com/groups/findmattgreene/
3. Flyer: http://socalcrisis.org/findmattgreene
4. Mono County Sheriff: http://www.monosheriff.org/
5. And tons of news stories (google Matthew Greene, Missing)
INFO MAP:
Here is a map that catalogues the suggestions and some search efforts from this and other forums. I will try to add it as new info becomes available. Please provide suggestions for info to add.
https://mapsengine.google.com/map/edit?mid=zn3r74pmynOE.kUAGPbbv8mwo
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Roots
Mountain climber
SoCal
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Bump! to keep at at the top, but not sure from what I read that he's actually "missing"....anyone have a date of when he was supposed to be back? Did the mechanic tell him how long it would take to fix his car?
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TeddyKGBee
Trad climber
Chester Springs
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 2, 2013 - 01:13pm PT
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After his car broke down, he was planning to stay behind and wait for it. It appears that he decided to do some climbing/hiking while waiting, but never met back up with friends as planned. The last anyone talked to him was on July 16th (his father). His credit card was last used on the 16th in Mammoth Lakes and his cell phone is coming back as a dead battery.
Latest thoughts are that he took a shuttle or got a ride to the meadows and may have attempted Mt. Lyell. MLPD released an official missing person alert and information is being posted throughout the area. Those of us who know Matt are very concerned that he has been out of contact for this long. Please share with anyone that may have been in an areas where they could have crossed paths with Matt.
Tom
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Stevee B
Mountain climber
Oakland, CA
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Not sure about the route from ML, but Lyell from Tuolumne wouldn't have required crampons at present. However crampons are generally recommended so he could conceivably have brought them if he didn't have a reliable current conditions report. The north face is pretty burnt out at present. Are you theorizing that he left out of Agnew Meadows?
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Stevee B
Mountain climber
Oakland, CA
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How tall is he? Ran into a solo thru-runner on the switchbacks from Lyell Meadow heading to (I think) Agnew meadow on 7/14.
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PAUL SOUZA
Trad climber
Central Valley, CA
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Wasn't Greg Stock up on the Lyell Glacier recently? Should contact him.
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TeddyKGBee
Trad climber
Chester Springs
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 2, 2013 - 01:21pm PT
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If there was a possibility of snow, Matt would have most likely taken crampons just in-case. As for starting location, I don't know the area very well, but if he did take public transportation, he may have taken the shuttle from ML to Tuolumne- which has service to the area.
Thanks for the info on the 14th- this would have been on the 17th or later
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Stevee B
Mountain climber
Oakland, CA
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Yeah sorry, just thought if you were trying to piece the puzzle and trying to understand his motivations, it might be helpful to know where he (maybe) had been the days prior if you didn't already know. Looks perhaps like the guy we saw.
Here's a photo of the North side of Lyell 7/14. Lyell/Maclure Col is on the right out of frame.
Good luck and hoping for the best.
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TeddyKGBee
Trad climber
Chester Springs
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 2, 2013 - 01:37pm PT
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Thanks, Stevee- I really appreciate the info and will share it with others. Thanks for taking the time to share.
Tom
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dirt claud
Social climber
san diego,ca
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Don't have much to add, just wishing that your friend will be found and be ok.
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TeddyKGBee
Trad climber
Chester Springs
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 2, 2013 - 03:29pm PT
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In talking with Matt's Friends who were last with him and are communicating with local authorities, they feel strongly that he either attempted Mt Lyell from Tuolumne or Mt. Banner/Ritter in Mammoth Lakes on July 17th. They went through his car and gear and based off of past conversations with Matt, agree that one of these areas were likely scenarios for him. They are leaning more toward Mt. Lyell.
Search and Rescue can't initiate a search without more concrete information on where he may have gone. Until that happens or until S&R makes the decision to go anyway, the hope is that some locals or others in the area could head out this weekend and search these two mountains. If anyone is able to do that, please let me know. I'm not sure if anything formal can get established between now and then (I and several of his friends are on the East coast), but just having people out there walking these areas would be extremely useful.
Thank you!
Tom
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Banquo
climber
Amerricka
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A reminder for us to tell somebody what our plans are or leave a note in the car.
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PAUL SOUZA
Trad climber
Central Valley, CA
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Post this as a BOLO on all other hiker/climber forums to get the word out.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Damn. That guy looks really familiar. His picture jumps off the page.
Ever look at mug shots down at the local police station? They tell you not to spend a lot of time, just go through the images. If you see the person you're looking for they will jump out at you. Matt's picture did this.
Unfortunately it's not a recent sighting. I'll be thinking positive stuff about this, hoping for the best of all possible outcomes.
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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hey there say, all, will keep this in mind, in my prayers...
just saw this... sure hope they find him...
but first, of course, the area where they think he is...
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PAUL SOUZA
Trad climber
Central Valley, CA
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Kris, I too, had the same reaction. Can't seem to place the face.
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Dr. Christ
Mountain climber
State of Mine
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Matthew Greene is a 39 year old male white, 5’11”, approximately 155 pounds, with brownish-blonde short hair and brown eyes.
hmmmm...
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TeddyKGBee
Trad climber
Chester Springs
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 2, 2013 - 08:20pm PT
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I'll mention to others about interviewing the shuttle drivers. It's been some time since he would have taken it, but perhaps they remember a conversation or reference to plans (or at least confirm that he was on it). For those of you that may recognize him, Matt has climbed for the past 5-6 summers out west at various locations. He is very personable and has a humble personality. He's the first to help out if someone needed something. I can't event count the number of times he helped to get someone out of a jam. Thanks for all of the help!
Update:
Yosemite rangers are going to check the logs on Lyett tomorrow. We are looking for someone to go to check Mt. Ritter. If anyone is or can go out there this weekend, that would be very much appreciated.
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ddsstyle
Sport climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Hi guys,
I am a maintenance worker at Devils Postpile NM. I ride the shuttle bus every day from Mammoth to work at the Postpile. My birthday is july 16th. I was on the first bus of the day at 7:15 that morning. I think there is a possibility that I saw Matthew that morning. There is also a possibility this interaction occurred on the 11 or 12 of july. The person I spoke with fits his description very well. He was wearing glasses on the bus and told me about how his subaru blew a head gasket. He said he had been in Mammoth for several days. He had a medium sized day pack. No gear was attached to the outside. I believe he said he was from the east coast. maybe PA or NY... We spoke about doing Ritter, Banner, Clyde, and the cross country hike between Ediza, Iceberg, Cecile, and Minaret lake. He was unclear of his itinerary for the day when he got of the bus at Devils Postpile. Can anyone confirm any info for me such as his hometown, if he wore glasses, and if he did indeed drive a subaru? There is also a possibility that this interaction occurred on the bus a few days prior, like on july 11 or 12. The reason that I feel the interaction may have happened a few days prior to the 16th is that I think I recall talking about how I was going to do Middle Palisade on the 14th...I just cant be sure when the interaction took place, which is killing me right now... I am leaning more towards prior to the 16th. Can anyone say if he had been day tripping into the reds meadow valley in the days prior to his disappearance? His photo and physical build jumped right out at me. The fact about the car also jumped out at me. My gut and the facts presented tells me Matthew is the person I had this interaction with, and that is occurred prior to the 16th. I just cant place the exact date. I have been in contact with the Mono County Sheriff... sending good vibes to all his family and friends...
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ddsstyle
Sport climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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I just saw the pic posted above. I am certain my interaction was with Matthew... again I just cant place the date...the more I think about it, the more I remember talking about DOING middle palisade on the 14th. The more I think, the more I feel our interaction happened prior to my bday on the 16th. I think I am just conflicted on dates because since it was my bday, it is jumping out at me for some weird reason. again I have contacted the Mono County Sheriff and hope to god this turns out good.
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TeddyKGBee
Trad climber
Chester Springs
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 2, 2013 - 08:39pm PT
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ddsstyle-
It sounds like you most certainly did talk with Matt. I am sharing this info with others involved. Thank you so much for this information and sharing as it helps to identify some possible plans. I can't thank you enough.
Tom
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ddsstyle
Sport climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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no problem. I am sharing this with everyone that I know in mammoth that hikes and with everyone that works at the Postpile. I am considering doing ritter or banner on my day off sunday so i'll check registers as well.
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TeddyKGBee
Trad climber
Chester Springs
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 2, 2013 - 08:59pm PT
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dd-
I just got confirmation that Matt was on the bus on the 11th and climbed Clyde Mineret that day. When you talked with him, was he looking for beta on clyde or did he talk about having done it. It's possible that he did another hike out that way on the 16th. The 17th is the day he went missing. Were you by chance on the bus that day?
Tom
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TeddyKGBee
Trad climber
Chester Springs
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 2, 2013 - 09:28pm PT
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SAR just rechecked the guidebook and Ritter and Banner were torn out. Matt always does this right before his trip. I feel confident that he was going there. We really need to check that log book. If anyone is going there or could go tomorrow, that would be extremely helpful.
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ruppell
climber
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Mono county SAR has a really good team. I know some of them check this site. I'd say that having those pages missing in all that is needed to at least mount a small search. If the pages from Lyell where still there that narrows it down for me. Best of luck in getting the search started. There's so many ways to go up there it will be a needle in a haystack type thing but at least make the effort I say.
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Leggs
Sport climber
Tucson, AZ
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Oh goodness...
positive energy... positive thoughts...
positive energy ... positive thoughts...
~peace
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Powder
Trad climber
the Flower Box
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^^^^^ x 10000
Wishing & hoping for a positive outcome...
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TeddyKGBee
Trad climber
Chester Springs
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 2, 2013 - 10:09pm PT
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Lyell pages were untouched. Ritter/Banner were only snow routes in the area of torn pages and Matt was geared for snow. All signs are pointing to Ritter right now. I'll post any other info that I get.
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le_bruce
climber
Oakland, CA
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Hey Teddy -
Hoping for the best. Reading this bit from the article linked above gives hope:
"It's not like I heard from him every week," she said, describing her son as a loner who loved being in the wild.
"He just kind of liked to do his own thing," she said, adding that he lives by himself in Bethlehem.
Hornbeck said Greene would often go off on a hike and not return phone or other messages until he emerged a week or so later.
Pulling for you, Matthew.
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ddsstyle
Sport climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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I am climbing up to the snowfield (possibly more) at Ritter tomorrow with two other SAR members. I will keep you posted
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TeddyKGBee
Trad climber
Chester Springs
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 3, 2013 - 12:17am PT
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Thank you, dd. That's great news. Best of luck and be safe. You're a really great person for doing this.
Tom
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Roxy
Trad climber
CA Central Coast
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))) sending positive energy (((
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ß Î Ø T Ç H
Boulder climber
extraordinaire
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I am climbing Ritter tomorrow with two other SAR members ... It goes without saying -- be careful out there.
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Fletcher
Trad climber
The great state of advaita
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All the best to you in your search and to Matt!
Eric
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Risk
Mountain climber
Olympia, WA
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For what it’s worth – three separate near-misses I have had in the area:
1) Ritter Pass, or maybe we were off-route – hard Class 3 traverse at the top; we backed off.
2) The bergschrund /calving snowfield on the south side of Lake Catherine. Nearly slipped into this one once on a solo trip.
3) The iced snowfield way, way above Upper Marie Lake; if up there, the shear cliff below is unseen when perilously crossing the slippery and icy snowfield.
There’s a lot of places up there prone to mishap. Best wishes for a happy conclusion to this story.
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TeddyKGBee
Trad climber
Chester Springs
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 3, 2013 - 09:35am PT
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Latest update-
There is a group going to Lyell today to check the summit register. dd and a group of SAR members are heading to Ritter. Also, the helicopter got the green light!!! All of you that have provided information here and in other forums, thank you! Please know that the support and and knowledge of the climbing community really helped to make all of this happen. Being back on the east coast makes this very hard for me and many of Matt's friends and family. Thanks to all of you, those 3000 miles don't seem quite as far. Thank you!
Tom
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FRUMY
Trad climber
Bishop,CA
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bump
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Leggs
Sport climber
Tucson, AZ
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bump
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TeddyKGBee
Trad climber
Chester Springs
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 3, 2013 - 03:08pm PT
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bump
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Anastasia
climber
Home
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Bump...
I hope you find him well.
AFS
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Capt.
climber
some eastside hovel
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More positive vibes sent from my direction.
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Ezra Ellis
Trad climber
North wet, and Da souf
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Wishing you and your friend well!!!
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Port
Trad climber
San Diego
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Positive vibes bump.
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rlf
Trad climber
Josh, CA
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bump
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TeddyKGBee
Trad climber
Chester Springs
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 4, 2013 - 09:26am PT
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Today's Update:
Crews went into Ritter yesterday and concentrated on the lower areas. They did not summit, but individuals are working to get a helicopter to transport a team to the summit team today to the base of the snowfield. Also, plan is to have the chopper do a aerial search a little after noon today if conditions with the fire cooperate.
Again, if anyone is going to Ritter or Lyell, please check the registers. Also, if anyone knows of individuals that have submitted these peaks in the last several weeks, please let us know. I will continue to post any additional info that I have.
Thank you-
Tom
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ninjah
Big Wall climber
a van down by the river
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Bump!!!
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pc
climber
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Very positive thoughts down that way. Gripping situation that hits close to home. I regularly head out on my own and rarely tell anyone where I'm going. Good reminder...
Hope he just walks out on his own.
pc
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SCseagoat
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Every time I see this thread my breathing stops for an instant knowing it could go either way. I'm leaning way towards my momentary breathlessness being replaced with an outrageous gasp of joy !!!! Yes yes yes. Vibes .. For everything to conclude with joyous dancing
Susan
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rlf
Trad climber
Josh, CA
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bump
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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hey there say, all... just checking in...
he is not forgotten... prayers for all that are
looking, as well..
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micronut
Trad climber
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I don't know matt, but he's a member of the tribe. Just spent a quiet few minutes in prayer for Matt and his friends and family. For God to grant him stamina and strength and bravery if he's out there hurt. For wisdom and direction for those looking for him and for peace beyond understanding for those close to him who are at home waiting for news. I hope he's just on a longer than planned walkabout and that we get good news soon.
Scott
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ruppell
climber
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Micronut,
Well put. I think where all here hoping against hope. Sometimes that's all you can do. I do think Teddy putting it here made the whole thing go a lot faster than had the normal channels been taken. That in and of itself is enough for me. The search teams are in place and the bird has the go ahead. If any of you pray for anything, pray for a wind shift once that bird leaves the ground. With the aspen fire going it's super thick right now. A clear line of sight from the air would make the operation so much easier.
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ElCapPirate
Big Wall climber
Reno, Nevada
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Hoping for the best...
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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This stays on top in hopes that someone with information catches it.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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up again
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mdavid
Big Wall climber
High Springs, FL
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I hope they find him
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PAUL SOUZA
Trad climber
Central Valley, CA
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Bumpity Bump
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Leggs
Sport climber
Tucson, AZ
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I truly believe if we continue to put out into the universe great vibes for a positive outcome, it shall happen.
~positive vibes... positive images..... positive thoughts... positive energy
~Peace
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Edge
Trad climber
New Durham, NH
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Miracles happen every day if you allow them to, so I am holding onto the best possible outcome and sending my thoughts and prayers that it be so.
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Powder
Trad climber
the Flower Box
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^^^^^^^^^
upthread
2 x 20000
Truly hoping for the positive outcome
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ß Î Ø T Ç H
Boulder climber
extraordinaire
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Saw a chopper headed out there at about 5 pm.
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Ezra Ellis
Trad climber
North wet, and Da souf
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Hoping for a good outcome !!!!!
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Port
Trad climber
San Diego
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The sound of a heli will give him hope, even if it doesn't find him initally. It can be enough to keep fighting.
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avid
Trad climber
Colorado Springs
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Bump
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LilaBiene
Trad climber
Technically...the spawning grounds of Yosemite
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Thoughts & heart & hope & strength beyond measure to Matt, and everyone anxiously awaiting his return.
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Capt.
climber
some eastside hovel
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Here's another for Matt! This is definitely in the forefront of my mind.More positive vibes.
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TeddyKGBee
Trad climber
Chester Springs
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 5, 2013 - 06:48pm PT
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Here is the latest (posted from his family):
I received updates through Bill w/ SAR and ran through everything with Matts friend Tony as well. Unfortunately, the search did not yield anything. The helicopter was able to do an aerial while the ground crews were out but they did not uncover any evidence of Matt. They did take a bunch of pictures while they were out that they will be reviewing and zooming in on to make sure nothing was missed. He did not sign the registers at the top of Banner or Ritter. Yosemite is still suppose to check the one at Lyell, though SAR does not think it's probable he would be there. SAR took pictures of the registers and are also pulling what info they can from permits issued to try and call/email those individuals to see if anyone might have any info on Matt. The fellow from the repair station is not of any circumstance; he was back a few days now and was actually part of SAR; the only thing Matt spoke to him about was his car repair. They went through Matt's gear again and established that he was not equipped for overnight; tent/bivvy/sleeping bag/stove/heavy jacket were all still with gear. Additionally, no rope or technical equipment was missing so they don't believe he was attempting any climbs. That about sums it up; I'll be editing the notes too with all this. I really think at this point that we need nationwide media coverage to get new leads and get them quick. I've contacted the major ones (Fox, NBC, CNN) but need to hound them more to get some attention brought to this story ASAP.
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highcamp
Trad climber
Bay Area, CA
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Still sending good vibes.
Tom, any possibility of passing along those high-res images and 'crowdsourcing' the search to a degree. I remember the friends of Gil Weiss and Ben Horne did that when the two went missing in Peru, and a ton of folks (me included) poured over those photos for hours trying to help. It's a long shot, and I'm sure getting the pics from the government would be hard, but it's something, and I know we'd all pitch in to help.
Erik
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PAUL SOUZA
Trad climber
Central Valley, CA
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Contact TomNod, the company that provided the sat photos when Ben and Gil went missing in Peru. The crowd-sourcing efforts proved to be highly beneficial to SAR.
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TeddyKGBee
Trad climber
Chester Springs
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 5, 2013 - 09:46pm PT
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Thanks for the suggestion. I contacted TomNod and also created a Flickr page for Matt. I have my photos uploaded and hopefully more will be added soon.
Please take a moment and take a look at the Flickr Page that was created for Matt. There are photos on there and a few videos of Matt. Please share with anyone that may have been in the area in the past couple of weeks. If more people see his face, maybe somebody will remember something.
http://www.flickr.com/groups/findmattgreene/
Thanks-
Tom
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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That's not really necessary, crank.
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James Wilcox
Boulder climber
The Coast
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Assuming Matt is the Sierras. It would seem the scope is expanding, rather than narrowing.
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murcy
Gym climber
sanfrancisco
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No, look above; it seems he had very little stuff, and no bivvy gear.
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TeddyKGBee
Trad climber
Chester Springs
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 5, 2013 - 10:34pm PT
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We all know the odds, but more than that, we know Matt and he is a strong and smart person. Right now, we need information more than anything else, so as usual, please keep sharing with individuals that may have been in the area over the past couple of weeks. Thank you to everyone who has been helping to get this out to the community.
Tom
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PAUL SOUZA
Trad climber
Central Valley, CA
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Last year, a buddy of mine from San Diego posted a suicide FB status, shut off his phone, and hit the road. One of his friends created a FB page where all of his friends and strangers could post up ideas, including his habits, interests, skills, etc. We had half of Cali on a BOLO. I mentioned that he would probably be in Yosemite, and later I would be correct.
So, if Matt is on FB, create a page and start spreading the word. Post it up on Twitter and you will shet yourself when you see the word spread like wildfire.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Odds are odd. There isn't much in life more important than doing everything possible for the ones you love.
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nita
Social climber
chica de chico, I don't claim to be a daisy.
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Odds are odd. There isn't much in life more important than doing everything possible for the ones you love.
+++++
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ß Î Ø T Ç H
Boulder climber
extraordinaire
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We spoke about doing Ritter, Banner, Clyde, and the cross country hike between Ediza, Iceberg, Cecile, and Minaret lake. He was unclear of his itinerary for the day when he got of the bus at Devils Postpile. Was Clyde Minaret (area) searched?
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TeddyKGBee
Trad climber
Chester Springs
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 5, 2013 - 11:48pm PT
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Matt was at Clyde on the 11th. It was one place that we know he went. All permits were searched and SAR is contacting those who had permits in the area to talk with them. Thanks!
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Dr. Christ
Mountain climber
State of Mine
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I had a friend disappear a few years ago from Sacramento. Four days later he turned up in Reno and did not remember how he got there. A bartender in Sac remembered him having drinks and leaving "wasted" with a shady looking guy. He didn't talk about the incident and withdrew from most of his friends.
Clearly an accident in the mountains is not the only (or worst) scenario, especially if he caught a ride with someone. All you can do is hope for the best.
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Dr. Christ
Mountain climber
State of Mine
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I assumed that is what happened... and I fail to see any humor in it.
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R and Y
Trad climber
CA
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Hey Tom Sorry to hear about your friend. If I were in your shoes I would I would talk to the folks at Tom Brown's tracker school and ask for help. I've taken a few classes from Tom and his instructors and they are a pretty impressive group of people. There is a search and forensic tracking team associated with the school and they will come out and lend you a hand if you ask. You can get ahold of them through Tom Brown's school website at www.trackerschool.com.
best of luck
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michaeld
Sport climber
Sacramento
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Could he have gotten a ride? His car broke down, hitch hiking...
But that's not a good route to let your mind wander down.
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Guernica
climber
right there, right then
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Great idea R & Y.
Warmest thoughts for your friend, and the very best of luck in your search.
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Roots
Mountain climber
SoCal
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bump!
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rlf
Trad climber
Josh, CA
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I hate bringing things like this up, and it's never a pleasant subject. Is there a chance that maybe he had some issues in his life he may have been hiding from those close to him?
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Stevee B
Mountain climber
Oakland, CA
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Sending more good vibes. Hoping for the best possible outcome.
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Crazy Bat
Sport climber
Birmingham, AL & Seweanee, TN
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Took this photo on the 17th. These guys had just topped out on Zodiac.
Probably not him.
Just curious, why are his eyes listed as brown, but they look blue in the photo posted of him?
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PAUL SOUZA
Trad climber
Central Valley, CA
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Doesn't look like Matt.
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Dr. Christ
Mountain climber
State of Mine
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dats dodds
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PeteC
climber
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That pic is Mammoth Locals Brett Dodds and cousin Cameron.
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Port
Trad climber
San Diego
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I hate bringing things like this up, and it's never a pleasant subject. Is there a chance that maybe he had some issues in his life he may have been hiding from those close to him?
I think it's always something to ask. I cant remember exactley but I recall an incident in supertopo history where it actaully happend. Some kid had traveled off to Bishop without informing his family, purposefully. This situation just doesnt feel the same to me.
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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hey there all, say, ... just stopped in, hoping...
i did not realize it had been this long, :(
since he was missing, ...
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
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Not to worry Cragman, those are aid ladders. And clean to boot!
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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That guys eyes are amazingly blue. It should make him easier to pick out of a crowd.
I hope he comes hiking out tomorrow.
I've done a bunch of really psycho hikes in my life. One time I carried an old EPIRB, but I always tell people that if a quick search doesn't find me, don't bother. I'm always changing my mind and heading through a different pass or river valley.
If anyone gets lost or injured, the way to signal searchers is to grab whatever you can and make the biggest "X" on the ground that you can. Put it in an open spot and make it as easy to see as possible. They will find that X in no time simply by flying over the different drainages.
Also carry a couple of basics.
My number one basic that I always carry is an extra large lawn garbage bag. They make great little shelters to crawl inside. Just poke a hole for breathing. I heard about that trick from a story of Bridwell using a garbage bag or a light bivy sack on the Moose's Tooth. They work great.
You can carry a PLB, but few do. They are expensive. The difference between a PLB and the old EPIRB's is that a PLB transmits your precise GPS coordinates to the SAR/SAT system. I'm not sure if they still do this, but you used to have to register them to yourself. When they got your signal, they instantly know who and where you are.
An EPIRB is just a beacon, and needs directional receivers to precisely find you.
The giant X is the most important thing. Way better than a signal mirror.
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crankster
Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
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Ritter & Banner beckon from Mammoth. Lyell does not.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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crankster spewed Not interested in the opinion of an extremist right-winger, DJ.
I hope I'm wrong. Matt looks like a gentle, wonderful person. But 17/18 days missing in the High Sierra makes for long odds.
Holy jumping to conclusions on all counts, Batman.
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TeddyKGBee
Trad climber
Chester Springs
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 7, 2013 - 12:15am PT
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Hi everyone-
Again, thanks for all of the help, ideas, leads, etc. As all of you can probably guess, this is extremely hard for those of us that know Matt. It's almost impossible to describe every last detail that we know, but I will try to provide the latest update and thinking by those involved in the search efforts.
Matt went missing on July 17th. His last contact with someone was on the evening of the 16th.
Matt's car broke down and he was in Mammoth Lakes staying at the Shady Rest Campground. His car was being fixed in town and was scheduled to be finished on the 18th. Matt was in town, from what we know, on the 16th. He was on a computer (we suspect the library) as indicated by a summit post forum post about water intoxication around 2:45 on the 16th. He talked with his father that day and texted a friend that night (around 9:00PM). He gave no indication to anyone that we know of that day what his plans were. His last cell phone ping came from Mammoth Mt., which would have been the tower from Mammoth Lakes
We suspect that on the 17th, Matt decided to do a day climb/hike as he took no overnight gear with him. He had a large pack and gear for snow, which indicates that he was thinking that snow was a possibility (crampons, Mountaineering axe, and boots). He had no bivy gear and it clearly seems like he had every intention of coming back that same day.
Matt was happy and loved life. He was a quiet guy, but happy to have a conversation with anyone that wanted to talk. He met a lot of people on his trips, so it's likely that he talked to someone that we weren't in contact with yet. As for questions about depression, while valid ones to ask, they do not make sense in this case or for Matt.
Matt had no transportation, so would have used his own two feet, hitched a ride, or more likely taken the shuttle. He was used to riding the shuttle as he did another hike on the 11th to do Clyde Minerat. I understand that he may have done another one in the Minerats as well. He talked about this with a fellow climber on what we believe was the 11th, but gave no indication of definitive plans and the info he was given covers a fairly large area. This person was also participating with SAR.
Matt had pages torn out of his guide book for the entire Minerat area, which covers approximately a 5 mile by 20 mile area, which included both Ritter and Banner (hence the search of the summit registers). Neither register was signed by Matt as reported by search teams. Other speculated that he may have attempted Lyell, but that would have required an early start that the shuttle service wouldn't provide. There are a lot of options in the Minerats, which would have been likely choices for Matt.
SEARCH
SAR was out on both Ritter and Banner last weekend as well as had a chopper that covered some of the snow fields for about 30 minutes. Without more information, they couldn't proceed with further efforts. Additionally, to make things harder, the area that is suggested as a possibility is in another county jurisdiction, which makes organizing the search more challenging for allocating resources.
Right now, SAR has put together some flyers asking for anyone and everyone hiking and climbing in those areas to CHECK the registries. Please do so if you're out there and help spread the word. This will be posted at all major climber hangouts in the region, but please help to spread this via word of mouth. The focus areas is in the Minerats right now since the limited info suggests that more so than any other location. However, there is always the possibility of the wildcard and he jumped the YART and headed into the park.
All permit offices were checked and those with permits from the time frame before and after he was missing are being contacted. Matt was known to get an early start, so it's very possible that he could have been the 1st one on the trail.
Right now, the missing piece to the puzzle is information. We need something, however small, to help hone in on his location or possible plans. If there is anything that you wish you could do, it's spread the word. Some resources are available for this including:
1. Facebook page: www.facebook.com/findmattgreene
2. Flickr Page with lots of photos: http://www.flickr.com/groups/findmattgreene/
3. Flyer: http://socalcrisis.org/findmattgreene
4. Mono County Sheriff: http://www.monosheriff.org/
5. And tons of news stories (google Matthew Greene, Missing)
I will try to provide any additional info that I get or clarify something that is missing. It is challenging to get everything out, but I and his other friends and family will do our best. Please continue to share. Miss you, Matt.
Tom
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crankster
Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
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It has to be Ritter. It can be done in a long day, so no need for overnight gear. No evidence he had previously climbed it, from what I've read, so would have been an obvious goal. He likely took his big pack to carry his bulky mountaineering boots. There's little snow in the Sierra this summer which points to the Southeast Glacier route.
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Wolfie
Trad climber
Mammoth Lakes
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Staying positive that Matt will return. There was a statement that resonated from his mother; that he likes to be alone in the wilderness, and often does not contact her for weeks after an adventure.
Has anyone checked Wilderness permits in Tuolumne and Mammoth Lakes. I live in the area, and the areas mentioned Mt.Lyell and Ritter/Banner are well traveled zones; someone has seen him if he is in these areas. Stay hopeful the climbing community is very small. My eyes are open.
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Wolfie
Trad climber
Mammoth Lakes
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Another bit of information..If Matt decided to climb Ritter/Banner he would need to travel to Agnew Meadows via the Tram from Main Lodge @ Mammoth Mountain (unless he went in prior to 6am),then he would have to go in with someone and a car. When one pays for a ticket a form is filled out for your intentions for the day(s). Has anyone checked the Tram logs(private company,not run by forest service)?
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ß Î Ø T Ç H
Boulder climber
extraordinaire
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I appreciate the OP's effort and dilligence, but this seems a story that will have to be solved in time.
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Anastasia
climber
Home
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Bump...
Keep posting up on every site.
If I ever lost Bill or my son out there, I would do everything and anything to find them.
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mattyj
Mountain climber
Truckee
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Tom, one thing that I haven't seen mentioned here is a description of the gear Matt brought with him. It sounds like you may know this, or at least be able to take a reasonable guess, since you know what was missing from his campsite.
Sometimes I recognize gear as much as or more than faces. I've passed people on the trail where 2 minutes later I couldn't tell you what their face looked like, but I can remember what color pack they had or what shoes they were wearing, because that triggered something in my brain - whether it's a piece of gear I want, or I momentarily went "that's the same helmet so-and-so has".
Could be enough to jog someone's memory.
I just want to say this: In the limited number of SARs like this that I've been involved with, active involvement by friends/family makes a huge difference in the outcome. There are so many possibilities, and one person seeing a flier or a report on the news and having an "aha!" moment can totally change the direction of the search. Keep up the good work, keep people informed, and keep trying to get the story carried as far and wide as possible.
In this recent case, it took two months for someone to connect the dots and bring forward a vital piece of information. You never know where that next lead might come from.
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ß Î Ø T Ç H
Boulder climber
extraordinaire
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From my experience with Ritter/Banner/Minarets the foremost hazard is loose rock.
I assume the snowfields ice-up even in summer 'til mid morning(?), depending on direct sun. I once took a ride down one I'll never forget.
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Sheik aka JD
Trad climber
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Bad month to be named Matthew Green. First my best bud from childhood (different Matt Green) is in a critical car crash. Now this. Been following this via the Mammoth newspaper...ugh
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mdavid
Big Wall climber
High Springs, FL
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Hoping for the best, however the window is closing fast. Hopefully he found a young college gal with tons of party favors and is enjoying himself hiking around the area...there's always hope.
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Dave Johnson
Mountain climber
Sacramento, CA
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Sad & distressing story. I can't imagine what his family is going through. Without being too critical, I'd like to suggest that anyone thinking of solo adventuring in the High Sierra take pause. It takes only a minute to let someone know where you are going, by what route and when you plan to return.
The Sierra is a wild mountain range, despite it's relative friendliness in terms of summer weather. It would be easy to disappear. Last fall a hiker, Larry Conn, went on a solo backpacking trip over Taboose Pass and never returned. He had only vaguely mentioned his itinerary. A massive search was conducted by air & ground despite an early season snow storm. Not a trace. Sadly, his remains were recently found near the Taboose Pass trail. His tent had been set up, however, none of the searchers had spotted it the previous fall.
I hope Matt's story has a happier ending and he learns a valuable lesson.
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micronut
Trad climber
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Checking this thread a couple times a day makes me feel strangely engaged. I have never me Matt...the first I've heard of him was this thread, but I feel oddly connected and concerned. Its a funny thing about climbing, how we all share in eachother's stories. Its different than any other "group"....ie; my church, my fellow physicians, fellow swimmers....I'm very connected in many other life spheres to many other people. Being a professional swimmer for much of my life, I'm very connected to all swimmers, from age groupers, to past Olympians, to US team members. When twenty something year old US member Fan Crippen died during an open water race a few years back, our whole sport mourned. But climbing for some reason transcends that. I'm just musing a bit about why the connection is so strong, and why I'm truly concerned and hopeful for a safe return for Matt, a guy I've never met. I'm sure most of you share my sentiments. What a strange thing, this climbing tribe. I'm often humbled by its breadth and strength. If you're out there Matt, stay strong. To his family, I pray for peace and steadfast hope and endurance in the days to come.
Scott
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splitclimber
climber
Sonoma County
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hoping for a good outcome
any searches along the mammoth crest near hammill lakes. probably still a little snow in those couloirs that would be an easy day trip and a fun snow climb.
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Leggs
Sport climber
Tucson, AZ
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bump
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crusher
climber
Santa Monica, CA
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Perhaps this is being done but are the local authorities putting the missing flier up at all the Mammoth, Reds Meadows and local area trailheads? They all have map/bear info boards, toilets, etc. at their parking areas and the more people see it the better. Maybe someone coming out from a backpacking trip has seen Matthew back in there - who knows?
So at this point was the last known sighting of or conversation with Matthew aboard the Reds Meadows Shuttle (or was it a town shuttle that drops at Main Lodge)? And that was mid-July? Or has a later sighting been confirmed (sorry I haven't been able to read all the posts yet).
Sending good vibes out there to all.
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franky
Trad climber
Bishop, CA
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i apologize for my roommate's ill-informed and insensitive comment. I deleted it.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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He owes you some beer! Definate party foul.
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10b4me
Ice climber
Wishes-He-Was-In-Arizona
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Has the flyer been passed out to YARTS?
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needledick
climber
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Hello Super Topo, I am Needledick, Franky's roomate. Silence is golden, my first error was participating in an internet forum. Moving on... I am not any more ill informed than anyone else. I am a former S&R professional. I also happen to be insensitive at times although I did not intend to hurt any feelings. I just don't understand the gesture of saying that you are hoping for "a good outcome" when clearly things aren't good. Your realization that things aren't good is likely what compelled you to comment that you hoped things "turn out good". I'm not sure how my statement makes things worse although I acknowledge that it certainly doesn't help, but neither do 90% of the other comments in this thread. Lay aside your emotional bias. I don't plan on responding to anymore comments concerning my post so if you really care about the conversation and the family members reading the thread, you will quickly forget it. If you feel like it, flame on, just understand that your target audience wont be listening.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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I'm not sure how my statement makes things worse
You are on a forum full of SAR pro's Somehow you think we don't know the score?
Suggest you consider that you are not a vulcan. Human factors matter.
Fact. Worse cases have come out positive.
Demotivating folks does not help.
You have a lot to learn about how the world works.
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Make sure to help spread the word on Facebook etc.
If it was my buddy missing you'd bet your ASS I wouldn't stop looking.
I've been at north lake out of bishop (SE face Emerson), rock creek bouldering and cathedral/tenaya. No sign of anything, for what it's worth. Not really info that's useful but why not.
Now....back on topic.
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johntp
Trad climber
socal
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franky- your roommate lives up to his moniker. "insensitive dumbass" would work as well. you live with that person?
edit: I'm assuming needledick is your roomie, but could be wrong since the post was deleted and I missed it.
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WBraun
climber
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climbski2
"Demotivating folks does not help.
You have a lot to learn about how the world works."
100% spot on.
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franky
Trad climber
Bishop, CA
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Needle dick is a very good roommate. Just not very experienced in the ways of the internet. He fails to realize that there are real people reading this forum who treat it like a normal conversation. I see what he's saying, I just don't think he's right to say it in the manner he did to whoever is reading this. People who have seen and done enough searches know that less likely scenarios are still pretty common.
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SCseagoat
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Needle dick is a very good roommate
I guess he pays his rent portion on time.
Susan
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, CA
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Agony throws everything off-center. And we are agonizing here. It will be messy.
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strangeday
Trad climber
Brea ca.
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Needle dick is a very good roommate. Just not very experienced in the ways of the internet. He fails to realize that there are real people reading this forum who treat it like a normal conversation. I see what he's saying, I just don't think he's right to say it in the manner he did to whoever is reading this.
There are plenty of other forums/threads on the web to practice trolling that are much more appropriate than this thread. Hope is a very powerful emotion, and sometimes in life, it's all one has to lean on.
Best wishes to the friends and family of the missing.
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SCseagoat
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Agony throws everything off-center. And we are agonizing here. It will be messy.
Thank you, Peter. What a beautiful capture of some complex stuff.
Susan
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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hey there say, franky and needledick and all...
i sure missed something, it seems, here, as to a post that somehow was
out of order?...
but i have learned by meeting so many folks in the world, that the words may not come out right, or to fit the situations at hand, properly, at times, as compared to the majority, but there can still be care in the heart... i will see this, in this way...
we are all different, i know that... we all have hopes, and yet, fears, as to folks that are lost... :(
i reckon it is coming out in a variety of ways...
but say--we all DO care... we ARE connected to the climber-field in some way or other, and doing the best to post hope, worries, or whatever, in the light of a very bad situation for someone dear to someone's heart...
prayers offered, again, tonight...
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Maybe it's just a simple case of penis envy...? Here's hoping Matthew is found so that we can stop worrying about him...
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PITA
Social climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Tom,
I can't even imagine the frustration and helplessness you must be feeling at this point. My heart goes out to you, your friends and family.
I have never posted on Supertopo before, but have been following your story. Ok, so this might be really lame, but a thought.
This last weekend I was working the PM shift as an RN. During the day, I wake and sleep. When awake, I cruise the TV channels. I clicked on to the "Nancy Grace" show. She has been broadcasting about two missing persons:
1) an amber alert
2) a kidnapped women.
I have no idea how her show works, I am sure there are a lot of cases nationally, but maybe she would televise Matt? Maybe worth a shot.
Anyway Tom, I do wish you good luck in your search.
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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If he was a baby in Florida... But no, I can't see Nancy Grace giving this story press - but hey I could be wrong and bad press is good press if it gets attention...
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, CA
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Crank, yes. But no matter what, we just do not know a thing at this point. Our young man may be fine, he may not. We couldn't possibly know and we have to wait and work.
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crankster
Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
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I hope you're right, Peter. I'd just like someone to present a scenario where he's all right. Other than the one alternative I suggested; that he's missing because he wants to be. I don't see any evidence he would do that.
If I had the slightest clue what area he went to I'd head to Mammoth tonight and look for him. Just because I'm being honest doesn't mean I'm not touched by this story.
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johntp
Trad climber
socal
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Please; can't we keep this on topic and let go of the slander?
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Seamstress
Trad climber
Yacolt, WA
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We have found people missing for a couple of weeks. Hope is always in order until evidence to the contrary is found.
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ß Î Ø T Ç H
Boulder climber
extraordinaire
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In a perfect world there would be enough personel to do a tight grid-search of everything in a 25 mile radius, but that is too costly and dangerous. The west is still wild, and Caveat emptor to anybody entering these mountains.
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RyanD
climber
Squamish
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Needledick, I didn't see your original post but you sound reasonable to me. All the people posting "good vibes" bs are saps. Get real, folks. Matt's been missing over 20 days and dimwits like Cragman and Werner, et al, are criticizing you for telling it like it is?
Throw out all the spiritual universe crap you want; it ain't gonna find him any sooner. There's only 2 outcomes at this point likely: he fell on a climb and is dead or is alive and missing because he wants to be. He's not going to be found with a broken ankle by a stream eating berries.
Wow crankster, u r kind of a cynical as#@&%e eh?
Posting negative BS to a hopeful thread & then trying to take it back & saying ur touched, then picking on Tami, then Canada??
Pretty sure nobody will be looking for u when u go missing. I'd recommend that you & needledick start using the buddy system.
Best of luck to all touched by this.
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Anastasia
climber
Home
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There is always a chance. Maybe he met some beautiful European and he joined her on an out of the blue trip. Stranger things have happened. I am hoping he is alive and well because the alternative sucks. There is always a chance and it's worth fighting for.
------
Tami,
Your post has the most brilliant spelling. (FuhQ) Yes, I am sitting here and admiring your sharp wit again.
Hugs,
AFS
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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20 days out....ugh.
If he took a trip with a blond...you won't find him in the mountains.
When I deal with people involving tragedy....and that is a frequent part of the job.....what I find that they really appreciate is HONESTY. They really hate the deception of smiley faces and absurd positive scenarios.
One always hopes for the best, but should also be realistic and not put other lives at risk or not allow family/friends to prepare.
Pretty sure nobody will be looking for u when u go missing. I'd recommend that you & needledick start using the buddy system.
Wow, an actual threat on someone's life. That's sure positive energy. I'm sure it will be reflected in positive energy spent on your search, as well.
I remember the half-year search for the guy up Taboose. They knew he was dead, but wanted closure. They found him, and now the friends post speculation, because they don't have closure.
What can we learn? The only good thing about such things. We need to learn.
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RyanD
climber
Squamish
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Hey Ken, I didn't mean for my post to come off as a threat on someone's life. That is absolutely ridiculous. You are definitely taking it way out of context. My apologies if anyone interpreted it this way. The post I quoted pissed me off because threads like these are meant to provide hope & positive vibes in a potentially tragic situation, not negate it. I thought that crankster & needledick were being as#@&%es towards the missing hiker & anyone who is close to him- so I stated it. Probably could have been more eloquent but too late now. The buddy system comment was my way of saying they are peas in a pod. Anyways, I really hope that Mathew is ok, wherever he is. Happy trails to this thread.
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Guernica
climber
right there, right then
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Good lord Ken, get a grip. Ryan's post was a good-natured jab at team crankdick's poor style. They are indeed two peas in a pod, and would probably be good roommates as well.
Obviously in your line of work, as an MD, people appreciate honesty. This isn't a hospital, it's a thread on an internet forum- a place for well-wishes and helpful feedback from those with ideas or possible intel.
You always seem to have a bad forum-side manner, doc.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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crank whined Ugh. People are being rudely criticized for daring to suggest that it's unlikely Matt is alive at this point, when all reason suggest this is the unfortunate truth.
No, crank. What you are your self-described "insensitive" friend needledick are failing to realize is that how you say something in a sensitive situation is probably twice as important as what you say. It's been 20 days. Perhaps you need things spelled out in black and white but everybody here knows what that means and are lending what moral support they can to the family/friends/searchers by saying that they "hope for a good outcome." That does not mean that outcome is likely.
There is a huge difference between saying "man, it's been 20 days. I hate to say it but things are looking pretty grim here" and "put a fork in this guy already stop being morons hoping for the best, you saps."
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Anastasia
climber
Home
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Doctors have scientific minds and with the use of reasoning facts and statistics is how they come up with their conclusions. Bill is like that... It's a very cut and dry. It's actually not meant as rude, just based on data without emotional context.
The rest of us "including me" work with strong emotions and reasoning last. I can appreciate reasoning, but it's not what comes easy for me. I usually am investing into my desired outcome, I am not staring at the data and purely working from there.
That is why doctors sometimes appear insensitive and... Why we can appear naive. Why it's also so much fun proving doctors wrong. Why Captain Kirk always befuddled Spock. The human element does change the whole equation.
The point is... I WANT him to be alright and there is a chance!!!! That chance is everything. Now back to praying...
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Norwegian
Trad climber
dancin on the tip of god's middle finger
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for perspective i offer
a recent tale and two,
unfolding nearby,
a friends 6 year old boy drowned in 5' of water at the local resevoir;
another friend's 7 month old took the brunt of daddy's stumble,
with a fractured skull, she faces a heady surgery, not likely to ever be the same.
this boy in our scopes, 39 years old,
living out one mountain drama after another,
comes up missing, maybe perished,
and it is all ok.
it has to be
the 6 year old's journey.
the 7 month old's journey.
the 39 year old's journey.
and each of our's journey.
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michaeld
Sport climber
Sacramento
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Any luck getting a helicopter up again?
What about those satellite images that they got for looking for Ben and Gil, any chance we can get something like that for Matt?
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Wolfie
Trad climber
Mammoth Lakes
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"One of our Sar guys did talk to him on the bus and they discussed Ritter/banner. That's why we went out there.Bus to reds/ agnew". I received this information from a friend that works for SAR...not sure if it is correct (via Facebook private message), but a SAR group did go up to Ritter area b/c of this information. I was out of town..I wanted to share in hopes that it helps.
Does anyone know if he planned to stay several days "took a large pack". When I do day peak bags, I go fast and light. Minaret traverse?
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michaeld
Sport climber
Sacramento
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Threw this together while at work.
Can we use this and update it to keep current?
Compressed:
Matthew Greene
Last Contact:
July 16th (Mammoth Lakes) (Texted a friend around 9pm)
Went Missing on the 17th.
Gear:
Large Backpack (may have stashed somewhere)
Small summit pack
Technical tools
Details:
Almost always signs logs at trail heads
Possible he did a day hike, brought snow gear (No overnight gear)
Made a post on summitpost about water intoxication at 2:45 on the 16th
No car, may have hitchhiked, or taken transit, or hiked.
Locations checked:
Lower areas of Ritter (Nothing)
Registers of Banner and Ritter (No Signature)
Matt was at Clyde on the 11th.
Possible locations:
Mt Lyell from Tuolumne
Mt Banner/Ritter from Mammoth (pages of guidebook torn out)
Minaret Traverse
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Lori Fairchild
Social climber
Lehighton
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I am not familiar with the area so what is the likelihood of this gentleman's story:
I may have seen him in Minden Nevada yesterday Tues Aug 6th? While putting gas in my car this guy that looked to be homeless was walking by with a backpack. I didn't pay much attention to him until I read the story in the Record Courier (our local paper). He was walking north about 10:45 and we are about 120 miles north of Mammoth. I am a retired Police Sergeant and currently volunteer with the Douglas Co. Search & Rescue. I have called and left a message for the Det. working the case.
Gary Marshall
This was posted on FINDMATTHEWGREENE on facebook. Could he have gotten this far? If so maybe he doesn't know he is missing yet! Have they searched NV areas???
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Lori Fairchild
Social climber
Lehighton
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Find Gary Marshall and ask him the address of the gas station.
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PAUL SOUZA
Trad climber
Central Valley, CA
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Perhaps dissociative fugue?
Although there was a person who road the bus with him talking about peak bagging. Wasn't that the Devil's Postpile bus?
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Wolfie
Trad climber
Mammoth Lakes
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http://www.highsierratopix.com/community/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=9790&start=24
Please check out this forum. There is statement from manoftoomanysports:
"For what it's worth, ~10 days ago we did TM over Donahue to Island, then xc to Lake Catherine then xc to the San Joaquin and Bench Canyon. We didn't see your friend or evidence of him. Really, a total lack of footprints after Lake Catherine. The only odd thing was a tent about 2/3 up North Glacier Pass, but I think you said he had no overnight gear."
Also, earlier in the thread someone stated if a one-person Big Agnes tent is seen in the area to please contact MLPD. Wondering if there is a connection....I told people at SAR to check these areas stated above days ago...
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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Duly noted, my advice is now up my ass.
I'm just recommending a little compassion.
Is that so hard?
Edit; this was in response to a now deleted thread.
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Inner City
Trad climber
East Bay
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Crankster,
Ease off the throttle dude, you are gonna get bounced from here for not playing nicely. Issues?
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PAUL SOUZA
Trad climber
Central Valley, CA
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What evidence is there that Matt would choose to disappear? You are an idiot.
Ever heard of dissociative fugue? Not saying that is the answer here, but a possibility and could have been in Werner's story.
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crankster
Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
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Inner, Brandon..this is not a thread about offering compassion to a grieving family. I want them to find their loved one. It is about a search for a person missing for 21 days without overnight gear in the High Sierra. Rather than analyzing me, why not offer some theories on Matt's whereabouts instead?
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Nutria
Trad climber
BishopCA
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If you summit any peak located in the general area between Tom's Place and Lee Vining, please carefully examine the summit register for Matt Greene's name on the dates of 15-19 July 2013. Remember that summit registers can be disorganized, and several log books may be present. Note that we want to hear from you whether or not you see his name; the absence of his name on a given peak is useful also.
Please report your results to Mono County Sheriff Search and Rescue Team at MosarOps@gmail.com. If you don't have email access, then please leave a phone message at: 760-566-6727.
Please print this page and take it with you as a reference for the dates and email address.
Thank you for your assistance,
Mono County Sheriff Search and Rescue Team
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John M
climber
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this is not a thread about offering compassion to a grieving family.
you have a poor understanding of what a family goes through when someone they love goes missing. Everything and anything is read and they don't separate out. which thread is which. Oh.. this is the thread for grieving family members. I will stay here. I wont read that other thread. Bull.. It doesn't work that way.
I agree that most people with a friend or family member missing want the truth. They thing is, that the truth can be delivered compassionately, or it can be delivered heartlessly. And even when they ask for the truth, that doesn't always mean they want it bluntly or even at that moment. I have had to deliver bad news about a young man who died in an auto accident. If you have any imagination at all or experience with these kinds of situations, then you know that there are facts that you give, and facts that you don't give, even when the family says they want all of the facts. There are just things people don't need to know. Things that I wish I didn't know.
There are plenty of stories of people surviving long periods with very little. If he injured himself and could get to water, then he could last a very long time.
So your defense of your attitude as being one of giving the family the truth is only part of the story.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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This is now a thread about searching for crankster's lost humanity instead of this poor Matt fellow. Throw your ego tantrums elsewhere, dude.
TeddyKGBee- Keep posting up. We are eager to hear about any progress and still hopeful for your buddy. Seems like a lot of helpful information has been posted already. Makes me feel lucky thinking of the sketchy things I did in Tuolumne without telling anyone where I was going.
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crankster
Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
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More analysis, no information. You have a poor understanding of the point of this thread, John.
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John M
climber
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More analysis, no information. You have a poor understanding of the point of this thread, John.
The point is to find this young man. Your posts take away hope. Hope is an important tool in motivating people to try. So my disagreeing with you is exactly to the point, whereas yours are not.
Plus you also fail again to understand that just because the thread has one title, doesn't mean that family members are able to separate the various issues.
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Wolfie
Trad climber
Mammoth Lakes
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Lori Fairchild said something interesting....
"I am not familiar with the area so what is the likelihood of this gentleman's story:
I may have seen him in Minden Nevada yesterday Tues Aug 6th? While putting gas in my car this guy that looked to be homeless was walking by with a backpack. I didn't pay much attention to him until I read the story in the Record Courier (our local paper). He was walking north about 10:45 and we are about 120 miles north of Mammoth. I am a retired Police Sergeant and currently volunteer with the Douglas Co. Search & Rescue. I have called and left a message for the Det. working the case.
Gary Marshall"
**Minden is not out of the question...someone should look into this.
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dave goodwin
climber
carson city, nv
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Crankster- you should READ what John M had to say about what family members go through when someone goes missing.
My father disapeared when I was only 5 months old in a plane incident. He was a bush pilot in Alaska so this was not uncommon. Friends of the family and fellow pilots kept looking for a very long time.
I am now 45 years old and I still think that maybe ther is a chance he is out there on a remote island somewhere livin off the land. It has had me wondering all these years and it is very emotional at times. My hands shake just typing this.
So you may think you are delivering the family some hard truth, but the fact is that they have already started to accept the truth, but the hope will still be there for a lot longer than you realize. You are adding nothing of value for the ones involved at this time.
JUst some feedback from someone who has lived with this their entire life.
Hoping for the best in this situation and to all the family and friends of Matt's.
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Wolfie
Trad climber
Mammoth Lakes
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Has anyone been checking bank statements...ATM use etc. Did he take his wallet?
Did he use the Mammoth Lakes library computers...or his own? Has anyone checked the "History" of searches Google maps/Earth,topos, climbing/mountaineering forums to gather info of potential objectives?
I keep hoping for the best outcome...I think of the time I went climbing/mountaineering in the Himalayas in '94 (19 yrs old). Prior to internet, cell phones etc. I contacted friends prior to going in...but I decided to stay longer in the mountains than my previous objective, due to many factors (stayed over a month with no communication to outside world). I came back to Kathmandu with pictures, flyers, phone calls from Embassies. I did not realize I was "Missing". I keep this in mind as I hope for the best outcome.
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Nutria
Trad climber
BishopCA
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Ron Anderson: Nutria, have you contacted the Douglas county Sheriffs office about the possible sighting in Minden NV? That could be advisable.
Although we posted the summit register request, SAR volunteers are not permitted to discuss ongoing missions in any public fashion. We are instead required to direct inquiries to the Mono County Sheriffs Office, as we work under their direction.
760-932-7549 x7 (ask for SAR coordinator or secondarily the Watch Commander)
sar@monosheriff.org
Sorry that we cannot provide a direct answer to these sorts of questions. We understand that this is frustrating.
Mono County SAR
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Let's hope for the best.
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Alexey
climber
San Jose, CA
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crankster you should stop to post on this tread....
you already said everything
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TeddyKGBee
Trad climber
Chester Springs
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 8, 2013 - 03:44pm PT
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Again- thank you all.
First, let me address the long chain of discussion about the delivery of information or "hard truths" that are being discussed. As a friend, yes, the emotional side of this is a reality and there is nothing that I haven't thought about or been concerned with from the moment I got the first call from the Sheriff's Department. If you post something that is upsetting, the reality is that I have already thought about it, so I just scroll down and move on.
Also, as a friend, I have hope and I know that if odds are to be challenged, I would put all of my chips on Matt. That's just the way it is. As a fellow climber, I know the dangers and hazards out there. I also know that at this point, what we need more than anything else is information. That information may or may not exist, but without looking for it, we will never know.
I understand that this is a climbing forum, but hundreds of Matt's friends and family members looking for information on Matt are looking everywhere they can, which may lead them to this forum. I am not suggesting that information be non-factual, but I will say that the dozens of posts embodying hope do not go unread and serve a very important role for me and many others. Hope is what keeps news stories get out there. Hope is what keeps people talking about this. Hope is what gives others the strength to not give up no matter what the odds may be. Hope is what we have when so much other information is missing.
I realize that it's impossible to fill all of you in on the details of this search, but please know that every possible lead on here and posted elsewhere is being investigated. Aside from the backcountry search, Matt's credit cards and other links to his whereabouts are constantly being monitored. Every person that may have seen Matt, that we know about, has been or is being contacted (wilderness permit holders, shuttle drivers, etc). This is all happening while we continue to search for more info.
A group is heading out from the east to search in person. All of the potential leads, ideas, or possible locations have been compiled from this and other forums and is in their hands. Further search of his gear, guide book, car, etc will all be done when they get there. This is in addition to the massive amount of work that the Sheriff's Dept and SAR already did. If individuals are interested in tagging along and helping out, please let me know and I'll connect you with these efforts.
Each night, friends and family of Matt have been placing candles in their west facing windows lighting the way home for Matt. That is an example of hope in action. The power of this stretches far beyond people sitting around and wanting to hear a positive outcome. It has created the momentum to create national media attention, raise necessary funds, fill empty seats on planes heading out west to look for Matt, continue the sharing of information, and show that the good in humanity is not lost. Matt would be the first one to be hopeful for me and keep pushing against the odds, so I and many others have no choice but to do the same for him.
Thank you,
Tom
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crusher
climber
Santa Monica, CA
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Ron, good and thanks. I was just going to see if one of us should forward that info to them.
You've all heard the saying "still waters run deep". Although Matthew may not have seemed depressed or otherwise likely to "disappear" or do something rash he is described as the quiet type. No one really knows what is/was going on with his mindset and the possibility is still there that he purposefully "dissappeared". It's one of several things that could have happened. Smart to be pragmatic and to look at all options, the negative and the positive in order to find him.
We post and we offer suggestions (vs. facts we unfortunately don't have) because we all have different perspectives and experiences and ideas, all or none of which could help. I wish this thread and the news of his going missing had come to our community sooner. Teddy please keep us up to date.
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TeddyKGBee
Trad climber
Chester Springs
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 8, 2013 - 03:56pm PT
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Thank you, Ron. I was told that it was reported to Mono County, but glad to hear that it has been pushed to the local authorities. Very much appreciated.
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michaeld
Sport climber
Sacramento
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When I read earlier in the forum about Matt making a post the night before he went missing, about "Water intoxication"
Endurance sports
Marathon runners are susceptible to water intoxication if they drink too much while running. This is caused when sodium levels drop below 135 mmol/L when athletes consume large amounts of fluid. This has been noted to be the result of the encouragement of excessive fluid replacement by various guidelines. This is largely been identified in marathon runners as a dilutional hyponatremia.[5] Medical personnel at marathon events are trained to suspect water intoxication immediately when runners collapse or show signs of confusion.
Dose anyone know if people are out for a long time and just let their body be depleted of water, if they can just, run away without even knowing why?
Maybe possible heat stroke?
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crankster
Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
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John M., Alexey, Cragman, Ryan D, etc. you obviously can't read. I've spent 95% of my time on this thread posting about why I think Matt went to Mt. Ritter. I offered a few sentences about long odds of survival.
Ryan, I'm sorry you think I'm arrogant for suggesting the focus of the search be on Mt. Ritter. You obviously know more about the area from your perch north of the border.
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michaeld
Sport climber
Sacramento
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This is no place for argument. Let it go Crankster, or take it to PM....
Mods, can you please delete any irrelevant / negative posts?
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Wolfie
Trad climber
Mammoth Lakes
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Tom,
Let me know if I can help. I am a local and spend a lot of time in the surrounding mountains/terrain...willing to help in the search.
Cheers
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RyanD
climber
Squamish
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Yes crankster, everyone on ST is an idiot but you. Maybe there's a few of us you haven't insulted but we get the idea. Thank you for enlightening us all. We are blessed to be in the presence of such a great genius. Please talk more, it sounds like everyone really likes what you have to say.
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Wolfie
Trad climber
Mammoth Lakes
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I partake in endurance running...and often train in the Lyell Canyon area and Volgesang areas. Long flat with little elevation gain until Donahue Pass. Maybe Matt went out with several objectives. Does he have a pack for running that is missing from car?
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michaeld
Sport climber
Sacramento
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Wolfie-
I believe it said he took a LARGE pack, that he possible stashed and took a smaller pack for peaks.
Page 1, Post 1
I think he would have left his larger backpack behind and took a day/summit pack with him.
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two0nine
Mountain climber
Far Away, CA
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Anyone know the forum in which he posted about water intoxication or simply the context of his post? Was he questioning about symptoms?
Also, anyone have knowledge of the what was said in the last text he made? Was it coherent, etc.?
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michaeld
Sport climber
Sacramento
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I believe summitpost at 2:45 July 16th.
I'll search for a link: No luck finding. Don't have a SP account. Can't access threads.
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PAUL SOUZA
Trad climber
Central Valley, CA
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Hey Teddy, can you please keep all updates in post #1?
Makes it much easier for everyone instead of re-reading the thread.
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crankster
Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
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Thanks for the insight, alli. I've cleaned up some of my posts where I was responding in anger to other's critcism. I'm mindful that Matt's friends & family are monitoring the forum and I'm sorry if they were offended.
I keep zeroing in on Mt. Ritter primarily because it is the most prominent peak in The Mammoth area. I understand he climbed Clyde Minaret sometime aroung July 11th. This would have been his enticing view from the summit:
He could have headed to Banner Peak, too. These climbs are long day-trips from the Agnew Meadow trailhead, but something that is commonly done by strong individuals like Matt.
I hope he is found soon.
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han
climber
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It will be really helpful to have the complete yet concise information in one place - gears, topos he took with him, people whom he was last in contact with, date and time summit registries checked, areas that have been searched etc.
Seems only the "lower areas" of Ritter/Banner has been searched? I am confused.
PAUL SOUZA
Aug 8, 2013 - 01:43pm PT
Hey Teddy, can you please keep all updates in post #1?
Makes it much easier for everyone instead of re-reading the thread.
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TeddyKGBee
Trad climber
Chester Springs
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 8, 2013 - 08:51pm PT
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Thanks for the suggestion. I updated the 1st post with the most current info and details. If there is something else that would be helpful to have on there, please let me know and I'll add it.
Tom
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TeddyKGBee
Trad climber
Chester Springs
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 8, 2013 - 08:58pm PT
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Cragman, Thank you. Can you please PM me when you firm up you plans and I can try to connect you with the group heading out. Your selflessness is truly amazing. Please be safe and best of luck. THANK YOU!!!!
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Wolfie
Trad climber
Mammoth Lakes
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In regards to the "water intoxication"...It was found in a computer "History"! I am not sure if it was a personal or library computer...that is why I asked if anyone has looked deeper in to the history of the computer. Did Matt print anything at library?? Did he go to Mammoth Mountaineering Supply and purchase any topos for trip...food etc? They have cameras there that they could see if he was there during certain days, if staff does not remember. It is a local hang out for climbers to get beta. Someone had to have spoken to him.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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I'm trying to arrange my schedule to head in to the area on Saturday, with plans to spend a week scouring the entire Ritter/Banner area. Anyone wishing to join me is welcome.
Go get him, Dean! You are the MAN for that area!
Be safe, bro.
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tdg119
Social climber
Northampton, PA
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This is Matt's little sister, Tiffany. Thank you everyone for your ideas and thoughts. IMO, You hold a better point of view regarding the situation thanks to your knowledge of the area and the hobby. Every little bit helps and I appreciate your time and effort in helping wade through what evidence we do have.
I've read every post here and feel no contempt towards anyone; it is what it is and as someone said - I realize the various outcomes and just want the closure of finding Matt, though admittedly I won't be entirely satisfied unless I also find out what happened, what went wrong. I find it hard to believe someone as smart and fit as my brother could get himself into trouble so easily.
As to the last couple questions:
Matt was using library computers and detectives told us when they inquired about history, that it was deleted every night for security purposes. From an IT standpoint, it may still be recoverable.
In regards to the water intoxication post, he was cautioning people as he experienced it during a 40 mile hike during his stint in the Peace Corps.
His last purchase was on the 16th and was about $16. I honestly don't know what he bought but have to imagine it was investigated and was not of significance.
Thank you all again for everything.
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Risk
Mountain climber
Olympia, WA
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Western flank of Ritter has a lot going on except other people. Very remote, but close to the road.
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Wolfie
Trad climber
Mammoth Lakes
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Thanks for placing these. I have been on the western flank of Ritter, and discussed with a SAR individual the potential that Matt may have ended up n this area...especially if a 30 mile day is nothing to him.
"In regards to the water intoxication post, he was cautioning people as he experienced it during a 40 mile hike during his stint in the Peace Corps." Posted by his sister...may be significant in his objective for a longer day.
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Nudge Nudge
Trad climber
|
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Meeting a friend at Ediza tomorrow, attempting Ritter/Banner from saddle. Will keep my eyes out. My thoughts go out to Matt's friends and family.
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Risk
Mountain climber
Olympia, WA
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The NF of the San Joaquin River trail (in foreground) and canyon are enticing and rugged. The NF crossing was especially challenging. Just another consideration. If possible, maybe someone should check Roper's Sierra High Route in the area above the NF.
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Matthew Gelber
Social climber
Tahoe
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One other possibility might be Red Slate Couloir. Might he have seen it from the Minarets and decided to check it out? Just a thought.
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Wolfie
Trad climber
Mammoth Lakes
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Headwaters Country: Devil's Postpile to Tuolumne Meadows, crossing the Ritter Range and the Cathedral Range. Roper calls this "Headwaters Country" because the route crosses headwaters of the San Joaquin River. This is a section of the High Sierra Route aka Roper's Route. I believe it is approximately 47 miles.
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JOEY.F
Gym climber
It's not rocket surgery
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Been about 10 years, but, the High Route from Lake Catherine to TM via Bench Canyon was very challenging route finding. Remote as can be considering the proximity to roads. Some of the moves across the the terrain were scary (for me). I did it North to South.
In any case, and having following the thread, hoping for the best for Matt.
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Lori Fairchild
Social climber
Lehighton
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Ron Anderson I sent you a private message. Please look into the possible sighting if you can. Thanks.
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crankster
Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
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Cragman is familiar with the area, but here's a photo for those who aren't. There would be less snow , but the SE Glacier would still be there. Good luck, all.
I had a positive vision last night. If he left in the early am, equipped with a large pack (could be used as a bivy, at least for his lower body), probably a light down jacket & rain shell, some food & water for a long day - if he fell & was injured, but was close to some water, he could still be alive.
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micronut
Trad climber
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Nice photo and input Crankster. Much appreciated by his friends and family for sure.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Perhaps the cliff bands below the Southeast Glacier (in cranksters photo) should be checked out. That high crossing from Cecile Lk to Ritter is trickier and more exposed than first appears. Although I'm sure there is much less snow than when I did it so I can't speak for current conditions.
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Lori Fairchild
Social climber
Lehighton
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Hopefully something will happen now that you contacted local authorities.Maybe Gary will start looking into it further too. Thanks for the info.
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Lori Fairchild
Social climber
Lehighton
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At least they are spreading the word. Is there anyone local that can distribute flyers?
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Lori Fairchild
Social climber
Lehighton
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I just thought it was odd that a retired police sergeant would take interest...something stuck out to him that made him think it was Matt. He lives in the area and sees hikers all the time. Why did this particular person catch his attention to make him post on Matt's facebook page? I am trying to keep the faith...
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tdg119
Social climber
Northampton, PA
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BUMP
Favor - Does anyone have the 3rd edition Secor book that would be willing to scan the maps from those missing pages (entire mineret area) for me to see? As I can't be there myself I'd like an idea of the routes and such that his friends might be checking out.
I'm not sure if it was mentioned but 6 of Matt's friends are heading out to CA today/tomorrow to poke around - including the two he was out there with prior to his disappearance. So keep up the thoughts and speculation - it's something for them to consider while they're able to look.
Thanks.
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TeddyKGBee
Trad climber
Chester Springs
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 9, 2013 - 03:40pm PT
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Map:
I compiled a map of the area using the comments and feedback from this and other forums. I do not know the area too well, so I may have some locations slightly off. If there are any changes or additions that you would like to suggest, please let me know.
If you have been in an area and checked a summit register, please let me know and I will add it. If you have been hiking or searching in an area, please let me know and I will add it.
https://mapsengine.google.com/map/edit?mid=zn3r74pmynOE.kUAGPbbv8mwo
Thanks,
Tom
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10b4me
Ice climber
Wishes-He-Was-In-Arizona
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Secor, 3rd edition
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tdg119
Social climber
Northampton, PA
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The maps are great - thank you so much!
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mattyj
Mountain climber
Truckee
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Tom, I hope you don't mind that I took the liberty of copying your map onto caltopo so that people who aren't familiar with the area can see the places you've marked on a USGS map: http://caltopo.com/map?id=4J3A.
I will PM you a password so that you can make changes or delete it, if you want.
Edit: I also overlaid the page scan from Secor. Scroll down to the bottom on the left under 'Geospatial Images' and click 'Secor'.
Edit 2: HighTraverse, the locations were pulled from Tom's map using a script (so his map will still have it in the old location). I moved the Clyde marker to 3738.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Some rambling thoughts
I'm referring to Teddy's excellent map, particularly the "empty" areas.
The environs around Cecile Lake should be thoroughly searched if hasn't been done already. The saddle is largely covered by krumholz which as we all know can be a great bivvy site or can obscure whatever is there on the ground. To my mind, a likely spot for Matt to bivvy after the Clyde and if he's there, pretty hard to see him without a thorough bushwhack search. Being sheltered, with water from the lake he could hole up in there for a while even if injured.
I don't see any reference in this thread to Amphitheater Lake. If Matt went over the top of the Clyde Minaret he would most likely (but not necessarily) have descended past or above this rockbound lake. It's deep and cold.
The back (West) side of Adams Minaret offers easy access to the N Fork San Joaquin (Schallenbarger Lake). Would be a good way for Matt to access that area if he caught the notion after the Clyde. Not mentioned in Secor, it's possible to climb directly to the Adams Minaret central ridge and then summit (700 ft higher than Clyde) from the NW corner of Amphitheater Lake (not from Amphitheater Col which is 3d class). Steep 4th to low 5th class climbing, (I might have made the FA 1978 or 9). I don't think anyone goes under the extremely rugged East face of Adams for years at a time since the regular Clyde descent is along the other side of Amphitheater Lake.
What's the chance he went to NW face of Michael Minaret to look for Peter Starr's resting place?
mattyj
I think you've mis marked the Clyde Minaret. You've got it on Eichorn. Clyde is the high point on the ridge running East from there, 3738m.
3736m is Michael Minaret.
EDIT: great work with the overlay
Earlier I mentioned the glacier/snowfield between Cecile Lake and Ritter. It runs along the slope roughly between the 3200 and 3300 meter contours all the way to the SE Glacier of Ritter.
EDIT: on the far left of Cragman's pic below
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Potemkin Village
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Cragman, are you heading in tomorrow? If so, do you have your itinerary planned already?
Those are great maps above.
Since last week, any more helicopter flybys anyone know?
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crankster
Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
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Best of luck, Cragman. Be safe out there.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Potemkin Village
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Cragman, thanks for the update.
And your insight.
.....
Did Matt climb Clyde with a buddy, or buddies? If so, have they been debriefed? Among the questions I'd have on my short list is whether Matt had any propensity as a serious climber-mountaineer to go off-trail enroute as many do.
As you know, confident serious climber-mountaineers - some more than others - will frequently cut trails, esp switch-backs, if not for expediency then for added adventure.
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ruppell
climber
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Among the questions I'd have on my short list is whether Matt had any propensity as a serious climber-mountaineer to go off-trail enroute as many do
Good question which leads me to another that I haven't seen asked. What was his comfort zone for solo adventures? Maybe his climbing partners can chime in and answer this one. If he was just looking to peak bag than he would most likely avoid the lower cliff bands. If he was comfortable soloing technical rock then the lower cliff bands can draw you in pretty quick. Also no one has mentioned Crystal Crag at all. It's close to town and a super enticing solo. It does get done quite a bit so I'd imagine it has been climbed in the past three weeks but maybe not. No reason to bring snow gear to that one but if you're not that familiar with the Sierras you might.
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Going solo, no matter what level of skill one has....one MUST have someone who knows the details, and is willing to make the call when you don't show up.
Sage advice. On my solo trips out I tell at least two, usually who know the area. I'm sure Matt was confident in his abilities, and there were plenty of times when I told no one - those times are gone.
Been checking in on this thread with a heavy heart.
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ruppell
climber
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Crag
I know, just throwing it out there.
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kstarr
climber
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Still hoping for a positive outcome to this and thankful for all the SAR members who put time and energy into these situations.
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Vegasclimber
Trad climber
Las Vegas, NV.
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Crag, be safe out there Sunday. I wish I could go, but with the combined travel and altitude all I would be doing is slowing you guys down, I'm not in the best shape right now. I wish I could make it happen, this is a bad deal for sure.
Just so that his friends know, the call for help or assistance has gone out a lot. The team I am on, Red Rock SAR, was contacted by a local Vegas climber to see if there was anything we could do. Unfortunately it's a little out of our capabilities at the moment.
Hoping for the best, regardless of the odds.
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ß Î Ø T Ç H
Boulder climber
extraordinaire
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This evening ...
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granite_girl
Trad climber
Oakland
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We climbed Crystal Crag and Laurel Mountain a few weekends ago. No sign of him in either place. Crystal Crag is climbed frequently. It's unlikely that he'd get overlooked if he were there.
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, CA
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Aug 10, 2013 - 12:02am PT
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Great image, Bio. Thanks
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Delhi Dog
climber
Good Question...
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Aug 10, 2013 - 03:52am PT
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bump for hope
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Aug 10, 2013 - 04:23am PT
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EDIT
I think the posters to this thread, including Crankster (who I had doubts at first, judgmental me, but now I think different, after following this thread), we all have Matt's safety in concern.
Let's just hope he decided to let his passions loose, so to speak.
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Anastasia
climber
Home
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Aug 10, 2013 - 04:44am PT
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+1 to Riley.
I don't know about anyone else, but planning isn't in my genes. Now going into the unknown and taking risks is. This could easily have been me.
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tdg119
Social climber
Northampton, PA
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Aug 10, 2013 - 07:39am PT
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To answer the question regarding Matt's comfort level - I heard one of Matt's friends say straight hand that it's very possible Matt would see something enticing and go off trail to check it out.
They also said he's not the type to race to the peak to bag it; that he would time things out to be back and if that meant turning around before reaching summit, so be it.
4 of his friends are on a flight as I post this, 2 more following, so many offers from other that will be in the area. Trying to keep my chin up that they'll bring him home and at peace that they're looking.
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crankster
Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
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Aug 10, 2013 - 10:16am PT
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Some random thoughts after re-studying the flikr photos:
Taking the big pack white pack instead of the medium blue pack...I can't figure that out. Maybe he had packed his climbing or other gear in the blue pack and the white one was empty. The La Sportiva's are bulky and he thought they'd carry more comfortable in the big pack. Or he had overnight gear that we are unaware of.
Is his helmet missing? Sorry if this has already been covered.
Has the Bloody Couloir on Bloody Mountain been check? Classic line, seen from Mammoth. This would require him getting a ride, however. Someone he met up with would either be missing, too (unlikely) or maybe dropped him off and is not aware he is missing. Probably a long shot.
The weather has been mild. Still a chance!
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tdg119
Social climber
Northampton, PA
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Aug 10, 2013 - 10:43am PT
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The group going are the friends that climb with him all the time; they are not novices and will be in groups and have solar powered cell chargers & rugged Communication devices. Still, I will share your post on the Facebook page (I run it) in hopes of keeping those who don't have the necessary experience from pushing towards the mountains. Hell that's why I'm not part of he search party; I'd need rescued too.
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tdg119
Social climber
Northampton, PA
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Aug 10, 2013 - 10:44am PT
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Cranks ther - helmet was not missing, nor any climbing gear.
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10b4me
Ice climber
Wishes-He-Was-In-Arizona
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Aug 10, 2013 - 10:59am PT
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After retreading the first post, it says his last credit card purchase was on the 16th. Where? Maybe Matt discussed his plans with someone there. A long shot, I know.
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crankster
Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
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Aug 10, 2013 - 11:12am PT
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In almost every climbing photo he's wearing his blue Black Diamond helmet. Curious he didn't take it if he was headed to climb Ritter or Banner, or any other climb for that matter.
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tdg119
Social climber
Northampton, PA
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Aug 10, 2013 - 11:19am PT
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We don't think he'd attempt a climb alone. Plus his rope, caribiners, etc were all at campsite.
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Deekaid
climber
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Aug 10, 2013 - 11:20am PT
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I think Cragman has a good theory going.
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WBraun
climber
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Aug 10, 2013 - 11:22am PT
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10b4me -- ".... it says his last credit card purchase was on the 16th. Where? Maybe Matt discussed his plans with someone there. A long shot, I know.
This is good investigative thinking.
Better than full speed ahead out of the coral in any ole random direction .......
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Aug 10, 2013 - 11:36am PT
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We don't think he'd attempt a climb alone.
Please do not make decisions based on this thought. Lots of experienced climbers, who would never "free solo" (do technical climbs without ropes/gear), could easily view things that non-climbers think of as "climbs" as nothing more than a steep hike.
Class 3-4 terrain is so easy compared to the technical climbing we commonly do, and is so often encountered on approaches to technical climbs and done ropeless and carrying a pack, without a second thought. People with Matt's level of experience have different views of what constitutes risk, or even what constitutes climbing vs scrambling or steep hiking.
Best of luck to the search parties. I hope all his loved ones find closure soon.
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Aug 10, 2013 - 03:11pm PT
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Good luck Dean, be safe.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Aug 10, 2013 - 05:24pm PT
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Ron
Also as Crag has mentioned the gullys have been melted out entirely. More moving rock exposed and possibly harder to negotiate Excellent point. I ran directly into this problem last week in the Tetons. Loose rock and gravel was a major obstacle on normally steep but otherwise straightforward snow approaches. Requiring significant extra caution and effort.
I'm also leaning towards the Cecile Lake - SE Ritter traverse. Looks deceptively easy.
Good luck to the searchers and stay safe out there.
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this just in
climber
north fork
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Aug 10, 2013 - 05:36pm PT
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I summited Ritter on Wednesday, August 7th from the westside. We came in from hemlock crossing, stayed close to Stevenson meadow, and approached through Ritter lakes. The snow was minimal on the western slope, but all the north facing slopes were packed with steep, wind blown snow. Unfortunately I didn't pay too much attention to the register, two parties summited on Aug 5th but neither were Matt. Wish I had taken a better look and hope he is found soon.
Regards,
Justin
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Aug 10, 2013 - 06:50pm PT
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after re-reading the entire thread
and considering Matt's decision to take
axe
crampons
mountain boots
Also, Matt climbed Clyde Minaret on July 11, 6 days before he went missing so he had some familiarity with conditions in the region.
Yet he specifically took tools for climbing steep hard snow or ice.
Therefore he was very likely intent on a snow/ice climb.
Matt also has a lot of experience in the backcountry and on long hikes. A 30 mile day would be nothing for Matt to consider. He would feel comfortable doing most solo hikes/climbs in the park and surrounding areas. This would put him within a day's round trip reach of any of the Minarets, Ritter and Banner.
But given what he carried, the rock routes would be unlikely.
From Cragman's photo yesterday, I would think that the three routes on the North face of the Clyde Minaret would still require a snow/ice approach.
I have traversed the ice field below them, it's a spectacular and exposed location.
They are all 4th class and I believe they are seldom done. Left to right they are
Starr's Route (historical significance)
Rock Route (still requires ice field approach)
Glacier Route (Norma Clyde), only 1 4th class move.
(Secor, 3d edition, page 380 with excellent photo on P381)
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Aug 10, 2013 - 07:00pm PT
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I know it sounds crazy, but could he have gotten a ride/shuttle/hitched to north peak/Dana?
With his car in a garage, how long was the work going to take to fix it? I would be gone as many days as it would take, 3-day job etc. just ideas.
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John Mac
Trad climber
Littleton, CO
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Aug 10, 2013 - 07:09pm PT
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When i had my head gasket done it took three days. Yes, it was a subi.
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TeddyKGBee
Trad climber
Chester Springs
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 10, 2013 - 08:52pm PT
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Hi-
Local search group is out there now. Got a question about Michael Minaret. Has anyone been out there recently or is planning to go? Also, any beta on a likely route that would require snow tools?
Thanks,
Tom
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Aug 10, 2013 - 08:58pm PT
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Tom,
See my note above ^^^^
Three routes on N Side of Clyde would require ice tools.
If you meant on the Michael Minaret, I don't know.
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TeddyKGBee
Trad climber
Chester Springs
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 10, 2013 - 09:05pm PT
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Thank you Cragman- I will let the team know. Did you talk with Jill?
Thanks,
Tom
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TeddyKGBee
Trad climber
Chester Springs
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 10, 2013 - 09:07pm PT
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Yes, sorry. I was referring to Michael Minaret. I passed along your suggestions to the team.
Tom
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TeddyKGBee
Trad climber
Chester Springs
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 10, 2013 - 09:08pm PT
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Details on Guidebook:
Secor 3 rd edition pages 369 to 398
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mtnyoung
Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
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Aug 10, 2013 - 10:49pm PT
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Good luck Dean and all of you who are giving so much time and effort to a fellow climber.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Aug 10, 2013 - 10:54pm PT
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Good luck Dean and Doug!
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10b4me
Ice climber
Wishes-He-Was-In-Arizona
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Aug 10, 2013 - 10:56pm PT
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Good luck Dean
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TeddyKGBee
Trad climber
Chester Springs
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 10, 2013 - 11:04pm PT
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Dean- Thank you so much. Just heard from Jill and she mentioned that you talked. Best of luck, but most importantly, please be safe. You're (and Doug)truly a great person for doing this.
Tom
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Norwegian
Trad climber
dancin on the tip of god's middle finger
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Aug 10, 2013 - 11:21pm PT
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cragman you've much high and dramatic country
within your kind sights.
may your spirits soar,
and your lungs fill readily.
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Mtnmun
Trad climber
Top of the Mountain Mun
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Aug 10, 2013 - 11:28pm PT
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Best of luck men.
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han
climber
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Aug 11, 2013 - 12:56am PT
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Good luck Dean and Doug. Please be safe!
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
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Aug 11, 2013 - 01:00am PT
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Cragman,
May HaShem keep you and guide you.
May the family and friends of Matt find Shalom.
(Post 333, its a good sign.)
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JOEY.F
Gym climber
It's not rocket surgery
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Aug 11, 2013 - 01:09am PT
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Hoping for the best outcome and admiration for team crag and Doug.
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crankster
Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
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Aug 11, 2013 - 11:14am PT
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I noticed the Facebook page mentions that the group from PA is in Mammoth and headed out to search. They are voicing some frustration with the search effort from authorities and want people to contact Governor Brown.
Some confusion lies with the joint county area that surround Ritter & Banner; Mono & Madera Counties. I assume Madera Sheriiff's SAR has been contacted repeatedly to launch a search?
The problem stems from the lack of specific clues as to Matt's possible destination. Seems pretty clear from the torn guidebook pages he was headed towards the zone between Mt. Ritter in the south to Mt. Lyell to the north in YNP.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Potemkin Village
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Aug 11, 2013 - 12:00pm PT
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Aerial photo from Secor...
High Traverse wrote
"I would think that the three routes on the North face of the Clyde Minaret would still require a snow/ice approach.
I have traversed the ice field below them, it's a spectacular and exposed location.
They are all 4th class and I believe they are seldom done. Left to right they are
Starr's Route (historical significance)
Rock Route (still requires ice field approach)
Glacier Route (Norma Clyde), only 1 4th class move."
Thinking along the same lines as HT, the Minarets would be my #1 area to search, taking into account other info on the thread and the fact that he was up there on the 11th - seeing all that additional extra opportunity.
So if I had one day to search the area the Minarets would be my pick.
.....
Wish I could be there right now, at the base of the east and north face routes of Clyde. To scope it out. Older written descriptions say they're 4th class ascents (one even "easy") but the aforementioned aerial picture suggests harder.
With one day, I'd certainly try to circle about Michael and circle about Amphitheater Lake. If anyone has already, they should post up.
Nice going, Cragman.
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ddsstyle
Sport climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Aug 11, 2013 - 12:11pm PT
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Although I understand frustrations of the friends and family as well as outsiders with this search effort, especially some inter county overlap/politics, they have got to understand how rugged, dangerous, and large this search area is. SAR members are volunteers. Not all of them are capable of climbing in the areas Matt is probably at. The risk to searchers vs the probability of a find must be considered. Given the evidence, SAR just cant throw people at every peak. And even if personnel went out to every single peak in the area, it is the small and detailed areas like the moats where he is likely to be found. Matt seems to wear earth tones frequently (like most of us do now) and it is like looking for a rock in a pile of rocks. You could be 50 feet away and with the wrong angle, totally miss a person. This search is going to depend on climbers like Cragman in my opinion. The prospect of Michael Minaret seems possible. I know I have thought about climbing to Starr's grave site so im sure others have entertained the idea as well. Although I have never done Michael, it seems it can be done in a day and the gear he took would be sufficient. Iron Mountain also seems possible. I believe it still has a large snowfield.... hopes and thoughts....
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Sredni Vashtar
Social climber
The coastal redwoods
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Aug 11, 2013 - 01:22pm PT
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Folks I know from a more specialized alpine SAR unit have been up there for a few days, I don't know exactly where they are searching but they were called in for their mountaineering experience last weds I think
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
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Aug 11, 2013 - 03:45pm PT
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I'm putting my money on Dean & Doug. Two former YOSAR (rescue) professionals who know and love the area.
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ß Î Ø T Ç H
Boulder climber
extraordinaire
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Aug 11, 2013 - 04:08pm PT
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Search and Rescue can't initiate a search without more concrete information on where he may have gone. Until that happens or until S&R makes the decision to go ... Seems like in the initial days sar didn't want to go out - like the were hoping it would just resolve itself. Now almost a month later people are coming out of the woodwork, making grand gestures to search, but for what? Seems a bit bass ackwards.
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10b4me
Ice climber
Wishes-He-Was-In-Arizona
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Aug 11, 2013 - 04:57pm PT
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I think Dean mentioned that a couple of YOSAR peeps went in a couple of days ago.
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oakgirl
Trad climber
Oakland
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Aug 11, 2013 - 08:36pm PT
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I know that most people have assumed that because he climbed Clyde on 7/11, he would be somewhere else. But, I've seen his friends say that he is very methodical and careful. Is it possible that since he was alone, he went back to Clyde because he was already familiar with it so it seemed safer? Maybe explored a different part of it? Maybe wasn't even focused on summitting, but just exploring?
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SalNichols
Big Wall climber
Richmond, CA
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Aug 11, 2013 - 09:11pm PT
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Occam's Razor.
Lacking any specific evidence to the contrary, the simplest/most likely solution is your best bet, and based upon what you all know, which isn't much, cragman is more than likely on the scent.
Which brings me to say to those of us that go wandering about: if you don't want to be rescued, then by all means, leave a note to that effect when you leave your car or trailhead. What this kids family, friends, and all of you out looking for him are going through is ridiculous.
It took us over a year to find Fosset, and he disappeared with a plane. I'm just praying that no one gets hurt in this search, because the "needle in a haystack" aspects of it are so unnecessary.
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Sredni Vashtar
Social climber
The coastal redwoods
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Aug 11, 2013 - 09:24pm PT
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It wasn't a challenge Chaz, just relaying what I know. Couple of the folks I mentioned are former YOSAR too. Many thanks to all the volunteers and the pros, my limited SAR experience tells me how much effort goes into this. Prayers for a happy outcome.
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Rankin
Social climber
Greensboro, North Carolina
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Aug 12, 2013 - 10:10am PT
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Bump.
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TeddyKGBee
Trad climber
Chester Springs
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 12, 2013 - 10:43am PT
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SEARCH UPDATE:
Hi everyone- the Group is out in the back country as I type. there was no information from yesterday, but they do have the ability to communicate directly with SAR, so any information that they get can get radioed in.
I also heard that SAR had been EXTREMELY helpful and accommodating to this group- Thank you so much!!!
One team went out to Michael's Minaret yesterday, but couldn't get on top. They may try again today. There was also a report that the Clyde Minaret log was signed by Matt on July 11th, which indicates that he signing the logs, as he normally does.
I was also asked to post a request:
Is anyone planning to climb Michael's Minaret or others within the next few days? Also, any other beta is always welcomed. The feedback that everyone has provided thus far has definitely aided in the search.
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mooch
Trad climber
Old Climbers' Home (Adopted)
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Aug 12, 2013 - 02:08pm PT
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Wish I could be part of the ground search. Did time with Sequoia Mountain Rescue (Tulare Co.) A huge suggestion, if no one has considered it....not only check Michael's Chute on the way to Michael Minaret's summit but ALSO Ampitheater Chute on the opposite side. Both chutes are VERY loose, especially Ampitheater. Also cover the traverse from Clyde Minaret to Michael. Lots of mini-chutes and steep nooks...
I will apologize ahead of time to those who feel this is bit "leaning" but this trip report Bob Burd did for our party when we went out to place a memorial plaque on Michael Minaret in 2003 has many valuble photo refereces of specific features such as Ampitheater and Michael Chute. Ran into our seperate issues on that outing too. Again, I am not trying to offend anyone. The title of the TR is called 'Missing In The Minarets', dedicated to the memory of climber/mountaineer Walter "Pete" Starr Jr.
http://www.snwburd.com/bob/trip_reports/michael_minaret_1.html
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Gene
climber
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Aug 12, 2013 - 08:18pm PT
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Below the notch between Ritter and banner.
Message from Dean at 10:45 this morning.
Wishing the best for all involved.
g
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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Aug 12, 2013 - 08:18pm PT
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hey there say, TeddyKGBee...
as to this:
Is anyone planning to climb Michael's Minaret or others within the next few days?e
perhaps, TOO, you could post this as a THREAD TITLE...
there MAY be folks that are not checking into this thread, that just
might be thinking about this climb, you never know...
or shorten it: 8-12-2013,any planning a climb Michael's Minare?
worth a shot...
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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Aug 12, 2013 - 08:50pm PT
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hey there say, i will be a bit 'outreach' and do that now...
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Delhi Dog
climber
Good Question...
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Aug 13, 2013 - 01:48am PT
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Bump to keep this on the front page.
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Fletcher
Trad climber
The great state of advaita
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Aug 13, 2013 - 01:53am PT
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Praying for the best possible outcome!
Peace,
Eric
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Lori Fairchild
Social climber
Lehighton
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Aug 13, 2013 - 09:23am PT
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From https://www.facebook.com/findmattgreene
I'm sure you're all wondering what's going on and looking for updates. I'm in communication with various people throughout the day and basically we're just trekking forward in our search.
Jill & Andrea put up posters anywhere and everywhere and spoke to the car repair shop, library, detective, and the Rite Aid where Matt's last purchase was made, to name a few.
Our teams are still out in the back country looking.
I've gone through Matt's items at home; everything he typically leaves at my parents during these treks as well as all of his records and important files. I gained access to his cell phone account and confirmed what we were already told. Working on access to his hotmail account. We have records of his CC and bank. Nothing "new" - though I saw where he'd written out a very general overview of where he'd be with whom and he'd planned to be home on 8/18 at the very latest.
I wanted to share a few other messages from those looking.
"The guides at SWS have been guiding and climbing the Ritter Range for the last 7 days. All the guides are back at home with no reports of any evidence of Matthew. They and their clients have climbed Clyde Minaret, the glacier route on Ritter, the northface of Ritter, the Ritter/Banner Saddle, the Northridge, and the south face of Banner.
Best of luck in your search and we advise extreme caution and safety in your efforts. Many of the lesser traveled regions in this area are very dangerous."
We've also contacted Ed at SkyTime Helicopter Tours (www.skytime.com - thanks to the person who posted their link on this site!) and he went out looking for us; nearly 2 hours yesterday with plans to take another in-depth look this morning when it's not so windy. Per Ed, "I'm going to take a good hard look and I'll let you know how it goes when I return. Say a prayer to St. Anthony, we are going to try very very hard to find him. May we have good Karma and Mojo, may the FORCE be with us".
Lastly, I know not everyone sees every post on here, but there was a post quite a bit ago with follow up just yesterday that I want to make sure is seen because anything is possible and we need to keep eyes out not just in Mammoth Lakes but all around -
"The more I think about it, the more I'm convinced I saw him in MInden, NV on 8/6/13 at 10:42, walking north on 395. I am a retired cop and new member of Douglas Co. SAR, but did not pay that much attention to the guy at first. He had a backpack with what I thought was a burnt orange sleeping bag stuffed in the top. I saw that he had a burnt orange tent, and that could have been it. I saw the article the next day and reported it to Douglas Co, Carson City, and NHP. His options would have been to take hwy 50 to Lake Tahoe or continue on 395 through Reno and into Calif. heading to Susanville. If that was him I saw that is. He looked homeless, like he had just woken up and his hair was sticking up. He also had a several week growth of beard."
Side note - hospitals were notified of Matt's disappearance, as well as homeless shelters and hostels in the area - not sure how far that notification stretches though.
The efforts mentioned are but a few of all that are going on to help find Matt. There are many people helping in various ways including those who are risking their lives to physically look. I want each and every person to know how much I appreciate everything being done.
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michaeld
Sport climber
Sacramento
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Aug 13, 2013 - 05:59pm PT
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To the top.
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deanalynn
Social climber
Huntington Beach-June Lake
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Aug 13, 2013 - 06:53pm PT
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bump
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Ezra Ellis
Trad climber
North wet, and Da souf
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Aug 13, 2013 - 06:54pm PT
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Any news????
Hoping for a good outcome!!!!!!!
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carmenlong
Trad climber
Mexico
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Aug 13, 2013 - 07:57pm PT
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Hi,
There is a Facebook page set up for gathering information and keeping people informed about searching for Matthew. I had contacted the admin for this page stating that I would like to volunteer this coming weekend to search for Matt. However, nobody had replied to my email and/or comments in that page.
I will be available to help searching Saturday 8/17 and Sunday 8/18 so it would be great if someone in this forum can share a contact person or group I could reach out to and coordinate helping out. Thanks!
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Deekaid
climber
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Aug 13, 2013 - 08:51pm PT
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hope it doesn't turn out to be a 180 degrees opposite situation and he got a ride from the wrong person...i am sure this has already been considered.
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tdg119
Social climber
Northampton, PA
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Aug 13, 2013 - 08:54pm PT
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Carmen - I'm the admin of the FB page and Matts sister. Unfortunately I know nothing of climbing. First I'll need to see if any of the team will still be out this weekend and if not the area they'd suggest. Not ignoring you; sometimes I just need to 'research' for the answer. Thanks for the offer of help.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Aug 13, 2013 - 09:16pm PT
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Carmen
Try sending Cragman a message on this forum. He's out there right now with another Supertopian.
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
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Aug 13, 2013 - 09:55pm PT
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Chelsea Wagner and I could contribute an aerial search technique we developed last year while flying Jeff Lowe and Connie Self around the western mountains for their Metanoia Movie, in the Tetons, Wind Rivers, Idaho Sawtooths, Wasatch, Zion, Cedar Breaks, etc
We have a fast Piper Comanche with oxygen based in the Monterey Bay area that is rigged for HD Video
We could fly to Mammoth or Bishop Airports tomorrow or the next day, if we can meet an aerial observer familiar with the area of concern
Since the airplane is fast, it is not ideal for real time aerial observation
However with HD Video capture, we can view the flight path on someones high definition display in front of knowledgeable observers as soon as we land
This method allows a detailed search of a large amount of terrain
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fluffy
Trad climber
Colorado
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Aug 13, 2013 - 10:37pm PT
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man what a great community. I'm really impressed.
to Matt's family: you are in our thoughts. stay strong...can't imagine what you're going through. somehow, some way, someday it will be ok.
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
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Aug 13, 2013 - 10:38pm PT
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Dean, I agree, having participated in many aerial searches
You are missing the point, we are talking about viewing HD video on a big screen with stop/start/zoom capabilities
Perhaps you could be our observer/navigator
This method of searching the HD video viewed under controlled conditions indoors allows a much more detailed search of a wide area than you can otherwise make while up in the air
(having also done many ground searches as an officer of Inyo County SAR and an original YOSAR and MRA member and also done a lot of remote sensing analysis)
We know how to stay safe in this sort of terrain and have overflown the Sierras many times...
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Aug 13, 2013 - 10:42pm PT
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You might spot 2 knuckleheads if you fly thru the Banner Ritter notch....?
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
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Aug 13, 2013 - 10:44pm PT
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i'm thinking of the successful search for Dan Hunt, the British speed flying pilot missing in the Alps following a flight from the Jungfraujoch in September
not to promote an argument, but you are thinking aerial search and i am thinking high definition remote sensing analysis
if you are not familiar with the detail that can be picked up by a RED camera, you are in for an eye opening treat...
(Coz IMs me to go ahead with this plan and do the search...)
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TeddyKGBee
Trad climber
Chester Springs
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 13, 2013 - 11:09pm PT
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Hi Carmenlong-
Thanks for the offer! If you can, please PM me and I'll send you the contact info for the person coordinating local efforts in Mammoth. Her name is Jill, and she will be able to tell you what has been searched and what areas still need boots on the ground. Thank you so much for offering to help. It goes without saying, but please be extra safe when your're out there.
Thanks,
Tom
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ruppell
climber
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Aug 13, 2013 - 11:23pm PT
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Tom if you can do it then do it. I can see Crags point and tend to agree with it but having that footage to analyze wouldn't be a bad thing. How many gigs of data are we talking to shoot that area in HD? What programs are you using to do the analysis? Worse case you guys have a rad fly over of the Ritter area. Best case it produces something.
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TeddyKGBee
Trad climber
Chester Springs
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 13, 2013 - 11:31pm PT
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Cragman-
Thank you for your efforts- more than words can say!!! We have a team creating a GIS map right now to help track search efforts. As soon as that is ready (maybe a day or two), I will let you know so we can get your details on there.
I can't express how happy I am to hear that you and Doug are both safe. There isn't a minute that goes by that I'm not thinking about everyone out there putting themselves at risk to help find Matt. Thank you, thank you, thank you. The more that I'm involved in this, the more faith I have in humanity- from people like you.
Tom
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Mark Rodell
Trad climber
Bangkok
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Aug 14, 2013 - 03:22am PT
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bump with hope
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Norwegian
Trad climber
dancin on the tip of god's middle finger
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Aug 14, 2013 - 07:47am PT
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not to make light,
but life is theatre,
and this has been a dramatic production.
a wonderful stage is up there,
for whatever the encore might present.
a good place to get lost,
a good place to search for clues,
a good place to surrender,
a good place at which we cast our hope.
even a good place to die.
the human spirit is on proud display, here.
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crankster
Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
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Aug 14, 2013 - 09:12am PT
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I'm eager to hear Cragman's report. Those two, as are all searchers, are to be commended for their bravery.
In July, 2012, Michael LeMaitre was participating in the Mount Marathon race in Seward, AK, along with hundreds of others. He was the last runner. He was near the turnaround point as race organizers were headed back to town, a short distance. He was never seen again. A massive search ensued and failed to find him. His daughter searched for weeks. Nothing has ever been found. http://www.runnersworld.com/runners-stories/last-man?page=single
I'm not mentioning this to throw water on the search. Rather, to point out how easy the wilderness can swallow a person. LeMaitre was in a known location yet not a trace. Granted, Alaska wilderness is wilder than the Sierra, but the search area was a fraction of the area where Matt could be located.
The same questions were asked in the Alaska case as are here. Would he have gone missing intentionally? What was his state of mind? The last picture of him shows him smiling, headed up. I imagine this when I think of Matt. Strong, happy, headed into the wilderness.
Hoping this ends with a better outcome for family & friends sake. I believe he will eventually be found.
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patrick compton
Trad climber
van
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Aug 14, 2013 - 09:58am PT
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Apoligies if this has been covered, but do we know if he had a smart phone on him and could it be tracked through law enforcement?
I know smart phones can be tracked, even when off, through the chip. Thousands of low-level drug dealers are convicted every year through cell tracking.
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10b4me
Ice climber
Wishes-He-Was-In-Arizona
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Aug 14, 2013 - 10:15am PT
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Patrick, his phone was not on.
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patrick compton
Trad climber
van
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Aug 14, 2013 - 10:19am PT
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I wouldn't assume it would be, but the chip can be tracked.
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patrick compton
Trad climber
van
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Aug 14, 2013 - 10:34am PT
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I'm not sure how to explain this any clearer:
A smart phone can be tracked through the chip. The phone does not need to be on or the battery have juice at all.
A google search turns up many examples, this is one:
http://www.slate.com/blogs/future_tense/2013/07/22/nsa_can_reportedly_track_cellphones_even_when_they_re_turned_off.html
There would probably need to be court order to release phone records. Local law enfocement probably does not have the technology or legality to do it themselves, but the Feds certainly do.
It would be great to see this NSA technology used for something good, not tracking low-level drug users and dealers by the DEA.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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Aug 14, 2013 - 10:43am PT
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Just claim he had calves the size of cantaloupes and I'm sure the DEA will lend a hand tracking his cell phone.
I keep clicking on this thread every couple of days hoping to hear some sort of news and am disappointed each time. I can't imagine how the family/friends must feel right now. The sense of incompleteness must be overwhelming. Thanks to you all who are close enough to actually help out with this effort and I only wish that was in the position to do the same.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Potemkin Village
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Aug 14, 2013 - 10:48am PT
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I'm not sure how to explain this any clearer... Ah, c'mon, try.
How could one track a cell phone thru the chip if it doesn't have any "juice" at all.
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PeteC
climber
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Aug 14, 2013 - 10:48am PT
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Just something I thought I'd throw out, not to widen the net but:
One concrete fact that we know is the he brought his snow gear.
Probably the best known, most aesthetic snow climb is in condition in the Mammoth Lakes area is Red Slate couloir.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Aug 14, 2013 - 10:59am PT
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Regarding Red Slate being melted out
Well that would make it a perfect spot to get in trouble. That unfortunately is true of anywhere out there though. Doesn't take much to be in real trouble when solo.
This kind of thing is so frustrating for those who wish to help. So many possibilities and all that can be done is to go take a look if you feel up to it and have the time and resources to donate. If folks do plan to search I'd suggest coordinating with the main search effort so you are not duplicating efforts unnecessarily.
For those close to the lost it is so much more than frustrating. May all of you find some peace in your hearts.
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SalNichols
Big Wall climber
Richmond, CA
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Aug 14, 2013 - 11:04am PT
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Re tracking unpowered cellphones: you just can't do it. If its off, so is the GPS. It's easy enough to prove to yourself if you doubt me. NSA has some interesting capabilities, tracking an unpowered cell phone isn't one of them.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Aug 14, 2013 - 11:18am PT
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I agree from a organized SAR point of view. This is the worst type of search scenario. No definite area. A few vague conversations indicating interest. Vast Rugged fairly hazardous terrain even for experienced mountaineers. A person could disappear and be 10 feet from a main trail and never be found.
Yet a private individual who regularly travels in these types of areas. Who climbs and loves doing it. That person like yourself will wish to be of assistance. If they are going out there anyway it can't hurt to offer a hand and perhaps coordinate.
SO frustrating.
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crankster
Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
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Aug 14, 2013 - 11:20am PT
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Cragman, you're a pro. Analysis so far is spot on. It's time to minimize the risk to others, while still honoring Matt and his family.
Without getting too explicit - but recognizing Cragman's opinion that the search is for a body at this point - nature has a way of scattering remains to a wider area than the incident point. Randy Morgenson disappeared in the Sierra and his remains were found 5 years later by hikers.
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WBraun
climber
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Aug 14, 2013 - 11:24am PT
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HFCS -- "How could one track a cell phone thru the chip if it doesn't have any "juice" at all."
Same here as we know this is bullsh!t.
Smartphones when they are so called turned off may actually have the Tx pings still on at intervals between sleep with very little current current drain between those cycles.
This is how you can "wake up" the phone from the tower if it has the firmware capabilities within the phones hardware.
Take the battery completely out and nothing will work .....
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i'm gumby dammit
Sport climber
da ow
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Aug 14, 2013 - 11:29am PT
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PeteC....I had a stellar view of Red Slate Couloir from the top of the Ritter Glacier two days ago....the lower half of the route is melted out. true, but remember when he would have seen it would have been almost a month ago. might have looked appealing then.
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mooch
Trad climber
Old Climbers' Home (Adopted)
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Aug 14, 2013 - 11:34am PT
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Crag -
Clyde, Eichorn, Dawson, Robinson and a handful of Inyo boys found Walter Starr's final resting place on the NE Face of Micael Minaret, a month after he left his camp at Ediza with limited clues. It can be daunting but search areas can be minimized and narrowed down. i have a feeling Matt is out in the Minarets.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Aug 14, 2013 - 11:39am PT
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I think Crag is talking about organized SAR operations. Not groups of exceptionally qualified mountaineers.
I think it's hard for folks who havn't worked in a SAR organization to realize how varied your memberships abilities are. How few truly excellent competent mountaineers tend to be available.
Just because good climbers can do something fairly safely does not mean a SAR group can. Very few SAR organizations have the talent of YOSAR at hand. Even YOSAR has to slow down and be careful based on their less capable members I'd suspect. Just the need for clear communication can slow things down when enough folks are involved.
Reminds me of a question Honnold was asking Tom this summer...What would be easy for him.. not so easy for an organization.
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Deekaid
climber
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Aug 14, 2013 - 11:46am PT
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there has to be something to searching/ being found by air or it wouldn't be in every survival manual known to man especially what Tom Cochrane is talking about
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two0nine
Mountain climber
Far Away, CA
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Aug 14, 2013 - 12:07pm PT
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Don't let egos get in the way- "If I didn't find him no one else will be able to" is the tone I'm picking up.
HD aerial search should absolutely be supported.
Flying over the mountains can be dangerous, but with this technology the pilot will not be buzzing canyons. How one can say this is much more dangerous that having groups of climbers in treacherous terrain is beyond me.
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crankster
Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
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Aug 14, 2013 - 01:18pm PT
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No amount of discussion on ST is going to get a formal air SAR initiated. Not for someone missing as long as Matt. Cragman spent 3 hard days on the ground searching. I' m trusting his advice.
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crankster
Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
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Aug 14, 2013 - 01:40pm PT
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From Facebook today:
"For those that saw the post by Tom Cochrane regarding doing professional HD Video capture in-flight for later review - I believe this is happening today with Tony (one of the team out in CA) tagging along to advise where to go. Very good news!
Ed from SkyTime also went all over the place yesterday w/ the doors off his helicopter and some expert eyes for another 2 hours, however did not uncover anything.
Lastly, I know some people have asked how to submit donations "offline". Donations can be mailed to PO Box 315, Northampton, PA 18067. I will try to thank everyone on the regular fundraiser page so please specify if you wish to remain anonymous."
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Brian
climber
California
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Aug 14, 2013 - 06:58pm PT
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I just got back into town from a month on the road, and I've not been on Supertopo for weeks before that for a variety of reasons. But felt compelled to comment here given the amount of time I spend in the Sierra:
Many thanks to Dean, Doug, and all the other people who regularly put aside their time, money, energy (physical and emotional), and often safety to try and help others through work on SAR and similar efforts.
Brian
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Aug 14, 2013 - 09:26pm PT
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Ron...Owning SOE makes you biased towards flight..Good luck Cragman...RJ
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WBraun
climber
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Aug 14, 2013 - 09:52pm PT
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From my experience with aerial search flights they are generally not very productive for cases such as this one with Matt.
It's extremely difficult to see bodies that have been exposed to the elements for long periods of time.
In a matter of days bodies blend in to the surrounding landscape.
A subject that is covered in florescent material or bright colors maybe much better?
We had an aerial search weeks ago looking for a day old body and the chopper never saw anything even though it flew right over the top of the body several times.
I couldn't even see the body until I was within 20 feet of it.
We missed it the first sweep as we were only 50 feet away what to speak of seeing it from the air.
Maybe Tom Cochrane's "RED camera" may work?
Best wishes for all to finding Matt ......
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mattyj
Mountain climber
Truckee
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Aug 15, 2013 - 02:10am PT
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Cragman -
I'm heading in on Sat to do Ritter / Banner as a 3-day trip. Longstanding plans from before Matt went missing, but we're going to fit some searching in. Was hoping to send you a PM with a few basic questions that might help focus our efforts. You have PMs turned off, I'd appreciate it if you'd drop me a line.
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ß Î Ø T Ç H
Boulder climber
extraordinaire
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Aug 15, 2013 - 02:44am PT
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If we get a heavy (upcoming) winter this story may never be solved. Kudos to those putting in the effort now, while conditions are most favorable.
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Lori Fairchild
Social climber
Lehighton
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Aug 15, 2013 - 09:34am PT
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FROM MATT"S SISTER ON FACEBOOK:
I've gone through Matt's items at home; everything he typically leaves at my parents during these treks as well as all of his records and important files. I gained access to his cell phone account and confirmed what we were already told. Working on access to his hotmail account. We have records of his CC and bank. Nothing "new" - though I saw where he'd written out a very general overview of where he'd be with whom and he'd planned to be home on 8/18 at the very latest.
I wanted to share a few other messages from those looking.
"The guides at SWS have been guiding and climbing the Ritter Range for the last 7 days. All the guides are back at home with no reports of any evidence of Matthew. They and their clients have climbed Clyde Minaret, the glacier route on Ritter, the northface of Ritter, the Ritter/Banner Saddle, the Northridge, and the south face of Banner.
Lastly, I know not everyone sees every post on here, but there was a post quite a bit ago with follow up just yesterday that I want to make sure is seen because anything is possible and we need to keep eyes out not just in Mammoth Lakes but all around -
"The more I think about it, the more I'm convinced I saw him in MInden, NV on 8/6/13 at 10:42, walking north on 395. I am a retired cop and new member of Douglas Co. SAR, but did not pay that much attention to the guy at first. He had a backpack with what I thought was a burnt orange sleeping bag stuffed in the top. I saw that he had a burnt orange tent, and that could have been it. I saw the article the next day and reported it to Douglas Co, Carson City, and NHP. His options would have been to take hwy 50 to Lake Tahoe or continue on 395 through Reno and into Calif. heading to Susanville. If that was him I saw that is. He looked homeless, like he had just woken up and his hair was sticking up. He also had a several week growth of beard."
Side note - hospitals were notified of Matt's disappearance, as well as homeless shelters and hostels in the area - not sure how far that notification stretches though.
The efforts mentioned are but a few of all that are going on to help find Matt. There are many people helping in various ways including those who are risking their lives to physically look. I want each and every person to know how much I appreciate everything being done. Thank you. ~ Tiffany
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Aug 15, 2013 - 11:03am PT
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We're all thinking of Matt, you and Matt's other friends and family.
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tdg119
Social climber
Northampton, PA
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Aug 15, 2013 - 11:15am PT
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I wanted to say thank you again for all that is being done to look for my brother.
I feel better knowing that a search was done; even if he is not found.
I wanted to share something that I also shared via email w/ Tom.
Matt's last calls were with my parents (3:20 PST) and the repair shop (4:29 & 4:35pm PST) on the 16th. Texting began at 6pm PST and ended at 11:34pm PST. The last text he received but did not answer was at 5:33 am PST on the 17th. I mention this because the phone records seem to indicate he was turning his phone off when not in use; which would mean he'd have to be up and turning his phone on at that time on the 17th. I am trying to confirm with Detective Hornbeck if the last ping traced was from his last call or that last text.
FWIW, we traced who sent that last txt message and made contact but unfortunately the individual does not remember what he'd said and it's no longer on his phone; we were kind of wondering if it's something that would have warranted a reply.
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geo_nutt
Gym climber
the big bang
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Aug 15, 2013 - 11:49am PT
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To matt's sister, family and friends-
Some time ago I briefly lived in the lehigh valley and while I can't say I ever remember meeting Matt my thoughts and prayers are with you all during this difficult time.
Brian
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Aug 15, 2013 - 12:09pm PT
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FWIW, we traced who sent that last txt message and made contact but unfortunately the individual does not remember what he'd said and it's no longer on his phone; we were kind of wondering if it's something that would have warranted a reply.
You might ask the detctive to request that info from the texters telephone company. They may have the text in their system.
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tdg119
Social climber
Northampton, PA
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Aug 15, 2013 - 01:23pm PT
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Hi this is Ron , Matt's brother in law. I keep going back to what the retired cop said about seeing Matt in Minden. We know he for a fact he went to devils postpile, so he was traveling up there. Is there any where near Tahoe (crystal range) in desolation wilderness with snow this time of year? Pyramid peak?
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tdg119
Social climber
Northampton, PA
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Aug 15, 2013 - 01:48pm PT
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Ahh, that makes more sense. Thanks!
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crankster
Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
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Aug 15, 2013 - 02:30pm PT
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No snow/ice climbing in Tahoe in Aug. The Sierra south of Mammoth has numerous couloirs that attract climbers; Mt. Mendel, N. Palisade & others.
Hard to imagine he'd head there without bivy gear.
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han
climber
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Aug 15, 2013 - 02:59pm PT
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Where is that individual located? Is he close to Matt?
Does he not know that Matt is missing until contacted by you?
Does Matt text him regularly or just that night?
How many text were sent and received from 6pm to 11:34pm?
(I don't need the answers), but if I were that individual, I'd go out of my way to contact family and remembering what the conversation is about. Find it strange that he can't recall anything.
Matt's last calls were with my parents (3:20 PST) and the repair shop (4:29 & 4:35pm PST) on the 16th. Texting began at 6pm PST and ended at 11:34pm PST. The last text he received but did not answer was at 5:33 am PST on the 17th. I mention this because the phone records seem to indicate he was turning his phone off when not in use; which would mean he'd have to be up and turning his phone on at that time on the 17th. I am trying to confirm with Detective Hornbeck if the last ping traced was from his last call or that last text.
FWIW, we traced who sent that last txt message and made contact but unfortunately the individual does not remember what he'd said and it's no longer on his phone; we were kind of wondering if it's something that would have warranted a reply.
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Aug 15, 2013 - 03:23pm PT
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I am no detective, but that does seem strange. I am sure there are logs of the text if you can get permission from the recipient.
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
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Aug 15, 2013 - 07:05pm PT
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processing 100 gigs of video capture now
we were able to see searchers on the ground
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Potemkin Village
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Aug 15, 2013 - 07:26pm PT
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Tom, very impressive!
Please share your HR photos here if you think we can help look through them.
It's a gift living in this age.
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Gal
Trad climber
going big air to fakie
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Aug 15, 2013 - 07:51pm PT
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Been following this thread. How difficult. Sending good thoughts, hopeful thoughts, wishful thoughts to all friends, family, and searchers.
TomC ~ Very awesome ~ love what technology can do for us!
Crag ~ that's cool you went out on a ground search, look forward to your TR.
@ R.Anderson, I thought the same thing about the textee, that just seems weird (maybe not, but right away, my first thoughts were how odd).
Hoping for you all. It's a tough situation in all aspects.
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Ezra Ellis
Trad climber
North wet, and Da souf
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Aug 15, 2013 - 07:58pm PT
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My thoughts too Ron, investigate that last text, police should have NO problem gettin ahold of it!!!
Good on you Tom Chochrine.
Hoping for the best!
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tdg119
Social climber
Northampton, PA
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Aug 15, 2013 - 08:02pm PT
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For those wondering about the texts; discovered this is actually EST time. Texts night of 16th all w friends; everything AOK. Text @ 2:53 am most likely one from previous night but Matt's phone was off so when he turned it on he rec'd it. Best guess is he'd complained about ppl packing early am (4am) and it waking him up; maybe the case?! The last text was from an older fellow from a climbing gym here in PA; he can't remember what it was but probably insignificant and not warranting a response. Not sure if able to trace the text location wise; trying to get answer from detective = trying to pull teeth. Not real happy about what I've heard about Detective. I'd like to see how he'd react to his own family member in same situation...
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tdg119
Social climber
Northampton, PA
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Aug 15, 2013 - 08:48pm PT
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Thank you so much Tom; I cannot thank you enough for the effort you've put forth with your flights.
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ElCapPirate
Big Wall climber
Reno, Nevada
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Aug 15, 2013 - 09:08pm PT
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Pretty awesome Tom! Huge Props to you.
he last text was from an older fellow from a climbing gym here in PA; he can't remember what it was but probably insignificant and not warranting a response.
Maybe a drunken text? If so, he should just say so.
Keeping my eyes peeled around Reno, just in case the Minden tip was accurate.
Hoping for the best.
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
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Aug 15, 2013 - 09:36pm PT
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please recognize that a lot of thanks is due to the expertise and dedication of Chelsea Wagner
i did get her interested in climbing and flying and filming
she has become a competent climber, a professional video editor, and an excellent pilot; and she did the flying today while i wrestled the heavy RED camera
Tony Rogerson, with help from his friends Chris and Sean, also helped guide us in the air, so we are doing this as a team
video capture is just the start of the image processing and analysis
Chelsea is now putting in the long hours required using Final Cut Pro for image processing the video, optimizing image stabilization, color balance, saturation, and exposure levels; and rendering to enhance detail display
we plan to pull out high resolution single frame images that can be examined at length, especially by those of you who are intimately familiar with this terrain (unlike me who has never set foot in the area)
to my knowledge this technique has not been used within the SAR community and this is my first attempt in this context, but if it works, we could be on to something
remote sensing analysis has been used in many other areas...i have myself used these techniques for supporting wild fire teams and for environmental analysis by DOI and EPA and DOE...so i have direct experience that these methods require a lot of tedious work once images have been captured
Also, Tony did a great job of keeping his stomach intact with little forewarning as to what he was getting into... while acting as second cameraman, assistant cameraman, flight navigator, and aerial search coordinator!
we are planning to share Blue Ray disks to people who want to help study the images
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Gal
Trad climber
going big air to fakie
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Aug 15, 2013 - 09:50pm PT
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Chelsea rocks too!!!
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
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Aug 15, 2013 - 10:02pm PT
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Wow, Tom et al that is really incredible work!
GOOD JOB!!!
I hope the effort really helps to solve this mystery. THAT is a lot of RED HD camera footage to look through very carefully.
I wondered what RED camera imagery was ...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Digital_Cinema_Camera_Company
Now I know. ;-)
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Aug 15, 2013 - 10:03pm PT
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we plan to pull out high resolution single frame images that can be examined at length, especially by those of you who are intimately familiar with this terrain (unlike me who has never set foot in the area)
to my knowledge this technique has not been used within the SAR community and this is my first attempt in this context, but if it works, we could be on to something
This sort of single image, crowd-sourced image analysis/search has been and is used in a number of applications. If you can use your experience to make it easier to setup and manage I'm sure there are no shortage of folks who would be grateful.
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Fluoride
Trad climber
West Los Angeles, CA
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Aug 15, 2013 - 10:32pm PT
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Been following this thread but haven't posted yet
Just gotta say a huge thanks to Dean, Tom and everyone else looking for Matt. I'm sure his friends and family are so grateful for your efforts.
Threads like this one...and the one on Blitzo...make me so proud to be a member of the climbing family. When times get tough we look out for each other so well.
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kunlun_shan
Mountain climber
SF, CA
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Aug 15, 2013 - 10:50pm PT
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we are planning to share Blue Ray disks to people who want to help study the images
Tom, its been mentioned before in this thread - you might want to contact tomnod.com, which is a crowd-sourced platform that lets volunteers look through and tag large numbers of images. This was used in the search for Ben and Gil last year in Peru. They might be willing to host your HD images. Nate Ricklin, part of the tomnod team used to post on the Taco.... Do a search, or use his email mentioned at http://tomnod.com/team/
What do you usually use the Red camera for? That's a very high end piece of equipment! What resolution are the video frames you are producing for the search?
Great that you are taking the time to do this!!! It's an impressive effort.
edit - watching Blue Ray video does not fit with tomnod and still frames....
need a crowd sourced HD vdo tomnod style platform..
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TeddyKGBee
Trad climber
Chester Springs
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 15, 2013 - 10:54pm PT
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I contacted Tomnod and they put in a request for imagery, but haven't heard back from them in over a week. I have an email and contact for the person that responded to my request. PM me and I will share if you think this video could be of some use to them. They were quick to respond to my email.
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splitter
Trad climber
SoCal Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
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Aug 15, 2013 - 11:07pm PT
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not to make light,
but life is theatre,
and this is a dramatic production.
a wonderful stage is up there,
for whatever the encore might present.
a good place to get lost,
a good place to search for clues,
a good place to surrender,
a good place at which we cast our hope.
even a good place to die.
the human spirit is on proud display, here.
~ Norwegian ~ WURD!!!
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Aug 16, 2013 - 01:11am PT
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GUD to hear from you again Splitter!
Seems appropriate!!
Wish I could be up there look'in!
GUD luck Friends!!
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
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Aug 16, 2013 - 02:07am PT
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We have used the Final Cut Pro editing program to compile a 23-minute HD video of scenes captured during several hours of rotating around the Minarets. This will take most of tonight to render.
Rendering is generally required any time Final Cut Pro must perform more calculations than the computer can handle in real time. It is usually needed for high-quality final output produced from files created by the RED camera. The editing is performed on lower res proxy files prior to rendering. The proxy files don't display anywhere near the quality of the rendered version.
The next challenge is how to view final output material that is designed to be projected on a full-sized theatrical movie screen. We have been studying a proxy version on a four-foot wide video display and are looking forward to examining it in greater detail when the rendering is complete in the morning.
We plan to share Blue Ray copies of this for people who have a way to view them to contribute to the search for Matt. We could share the video on something like YouTube, which would provide a nice aerial tour of the Minarets, but without providing the level-of-detail required for SAR purposes.
We also plan to create single frame captures at high res that can be shared more easily than HD video running at 30 frames per second. However this is not something we have done before.
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i'm gumby dammit
Sport climber
da ow
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Aug 16, 2013 - 03:44am PT
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^^ that is awesome. if nothing else, perhaps this will help to bring to light more streamlined and effective ways to meld technology and a userbase into the searches of the future
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SalNichols
Big Wall climber
Richmond, CA
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Aug 16, 2013 - 04:29am PT
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Is there an easy way to annotate the images to show the areas that have been searched?
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
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Aug 16, 2013 - 11:22am PT
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The following photos are NOT high resolution, but are simply JPEG screen captures that show the frame outline of some of the RED images we captured.
As I am not intimate with this area the way many of you are, it will be a helpful contribution if you recognize their location and help tag whether they are a priority to examine in high resolution.
We snatched these out of a fast moving video stream that would no doubt help you identify the location. I am not trying to increase your challenge of identifying these locations...just that we are not there yet with sharing video clips or high res images.
We have tagged the preliminary edited video stream with arbitrary time code numbers in the upper left of each frame, to help keep track of what we are looking at.
We are producing a 23-minute video that is about 20 gigabytes and could be viewed from Blue Ray, Quicktime, DVD, or Vimeo account. We may place it on the Vimeo account of our little company, Liquid Light Inc.
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Norwegian
Trad climber
dancin on the tip of god's middle finger
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Aug 16, 2013 - 11:24am PT
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round top mountain in mokelumne wilderness
(tahoe area)
has three attactive snow / mixed couloirs
this time of year.
i'll see about getting over there in the next week.
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WBraun
climber
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Aug 16, 2013 - 11:51am PT
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Isn't Banner Ritter and the Minarets area under jurisdiction of Madera County?
So that would be under Madera County Sheriffs office for any official searches in that region?
In 1971 we flew to the notch between Banner and Ritter.
One of the people we were looking for mistakenly walked out the wrong way and ended up coming out the west side at Mineral King.
There's many times the person will end up some where way out in left field outside the "assumed" search area.
These kinds of missing people searches are "Needle in the Haystack" affairs .....
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
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Aug 16, 2013 - 12:39pm PT
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a little intro into the arcane subject of HD Video:
High-definition video is video of higher resolution than is standard. While there is no specific meaning for high-definition, generally any video image with more than 480 horizontal lines (North America) or 570 lines (Europe) is considered high-definition. 720 scan lines is generally the minimum even though many systems greatly exceed that. Images of standard resolution captured at rates faster than normal (60 frames/second North America, 50 fps Europe), by a high-speed camera may be considered high-definition in some contexts.
Most computers are capable of HD or higher resolutions over VGA, DVI, and/or HDMI.
The optical disc standard Blu-ray Disc can provide enough digital storage to store hours of HD video content.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-definition_video
High-definition television (HDTV) resolution is 1,080 or 720 lines. In contrast, regular digital television (DTV) is 480 lines (upon which NTSC is based, 480 visible scanlines
We are shooting 30 frames per second at 4K (4096 x 2048 which is 8.4 mega pixels per frame). This can currently only be displayed directly with a special projector in a major movie theater. However the advantage for this project is that we can crop out a 25% section of the picture and still have 1280x720 to look at on a Blue Ray disk.
We also shot some passes at 60 frames per second at 3K, to help stabilize shots taken from the airplane.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Potemkin Village
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Aug 16, 2013 - 01:03pm PT
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No doubt this will evolve in the future.
RC hand-launched drones would be a game changer - flying slow and low over all those nooks and crannies, ledges and moats, already mentioned. At a micro-fraction of the cost, too.
It's a shame this ability doesn't already exist. Imagine a company based somewhere off the east side with a dozen of these ready to go out of somebody's garage when in need.
It could even be set up such that these drones could be controlled by sleepy-ass couch climbers like us. Wouldn't that be something!
Of course Rosnau Rescue would have to be licensed to fly and then only at approved SAR times. We couldn't have its squadron of drones flying over the Minarets just whenever.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Potemkin Village
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Aug 16, 2013 - 01:12pm PT
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rc set ups still need visual contact with the pilot
They would have on-board cams, cellular transmission-internet capabilities, the works. It's all quite cheap, too, think about it.
With today's technology, this could be done from the comfort of your lazy boy in Carson City. Indeed just like today's military does out of Las Vegas-Afghanistan. On a slow day like today, you could do the Ritter Glacier and I could do the Michael Minaret ledges. Even Jennie and Sully could take part - buzzing the shrunds. By day's end, a lot of ground would be covered. Indeed, as much a game changer as Wiki's been regarding retrieval of info. Wow.
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MelissaSimock
climber
Los Angeles
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Aug 16, 2013 - 01:54pm PT
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http://youtu.be/nPUhbYR1W6M
Here is a video to help get the information regarding Matt's disappearance out to as many people as possible. PLEASE SHARE!!!
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mattyj
Mountain climber
Truckee
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Aug 16, 2013 - 02:03pm PT
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check out mt ritter or banner peak while I wait?
It's very unclear whether the monologue in the video, especially the statement above, are direct quotes from messages Matt wrote or if they were made up to provide context to his disappearance.
I bring this up because while I've heard about guidebook pages ripped out, conversations with others etc I don't think there's been anything posted on this thread or facebook that so directly indicates plans to do Ritter / Banner.
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ß Î Ø T Ç H
Boulder climber
extraordinaire
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Aug 16, 2013 - 02:10pm PT
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Erie, but very effective video. Thanks.
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TwistedCrank
climber
Bungwater Hollow, Ida-ho
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Aug 16, 2013 - 02:45pm PT
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Tear the page out, put it in a zip lock.
Better than carrying the whole book or having to find a Xerox machine.
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mattyj
Mountain climber
Truckee
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Aug 16, 2013 - 03:04pm PT
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Ron, I don't get it either but plenty of people seem to do it. Especially if you're not local to the area and won't be pulling the guidebook off your shelf every weekend for years to come.
I wouldn't read too much into that bit of information.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Potemkin Village
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Aug 16, 2013 - 03:12pm PT
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re: hand-launched local drones in SAR
it doesnt cost too much and goes .5 miles and is ultra light weight.
Your video shows the incredile progress of the field.
In addition to the drones, the lazyboys, the internet, it is obvious we would need in situ an attendant to attend a fueling station. But this too could be quickly worked out.
Amazing concept, though. I wish it were available today for you and Matt.
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ionlyski
Trad climber
Kalispell, Montana
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Aug 16, 2013 - 03:12pm PT
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I've done it several times in the alpine. Big giant book, route too complicated to jot it all down and out come the pages. I usually use a blade to make a nice cut then my wife takes it to a lady at her school to tape it back in and you hardly notice it.
Haven't bothered in years though, I suppose only if I were worried about the route.
Arne
edit-that's one of my beefs with the big "best of" guide books that are so popular now. They're not meant to be carried into the mountains, just for cragging.
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Aug 16, 2013 - 03:23pm PT
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I took off for a few weeks and did nothing but climb 14'ers in Colorado to get my butt into shape. I'm a stickler for weight, so I always just cut out the map with my knife.
So yeah, I've done this a LOT.
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SalNichols
Big Wall climber
Richmond, CA
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Aug 16, 2013 - 05:22pm PT
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For what it's worth:
IMHO the odds that Matthew went off the grid are pretty low. Even for someone accustomed to being alone, his family appears to be used to hearing from him regularly. If there was nothing "off" in his last conversation with his dad, taking a powder is unlikely.
Has anyone obtained the campground registers for the Mammoth campgrounds for the period that Matthew was known to be in residence? Somewhere in that list of people may be the one person that Matthew may have spoken with about his plans.
Did Matthew make any large withdrawals from his bank account to pay for his car repairs? I'm sorry to bring this up, but If he had a bit of cash on him, someone might have wanted it.
I was trying to put myself in Matthews shoes this morning, particularly after reading Cragmans TR. if I'm unfamiliar with an area, and I'm not carrying a topo, I tend to follow the road MOST traveled. That might not be the same approach taken by someone intimately familiar with the area. If I am carrying a topo, I'd probably trend towards the most direct route, which has in the past led me into dead end dangerous stream crossings.
If he signed the register of Michael Minaret, then its safe to assume that hes in the habit of signing registers. Thus, we do know that he never made the summits of either Banner or Ritter, given that he didn't sign the registers.
It's pretty clear that he was planning a day hike/climb. He didn't have wheels, and you have no evidence of him being on public transportation on the 17th. What if he left from Mammoth instead of June Lake? Where could he get into trouble along that route?
Ask yourself: what route would someone unfamiliar with the area take? Consider especially that he was confident in his ability to operate at ultra marathon like distances.
Get those campground registers and start interviewing people. Begin with the campsites closest to him. Just in case, I'd run a criminal data base check on every name in the register. You never know.
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
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Aug 16, 2013 - 06:50pm PT
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...staring at images of rocks and ice...
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Aug 16, 2013 - 07:18pm PT
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Back in the 80's, hitching 395 was pretty safe. I could hitch from Bishop to Lee Vining, over the pass and into the valley faster than I could drive my constantly ailing VW van.
I got picked up by some weird characters, and we now all know that hitch hiking is a way to get nabbed by a freak.
Was he hitching around?
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ß Î Ø T Ç H
Boulder climber
extraordinaire
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Aug 16, 2013 - 08:30pm PT
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I tend to follow the road MOST traveled. The most obvious approach to the Ritter/ Banner area is Agnew Meadows trailhead to Shadow Lake, Ediza etc.
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SalNichols
Big Wall climber
Richmond, CA
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Aug 16, 2013 - 08:38pm PT
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If he went into the Minarets via the Shadow Lake drainage, he may have returned to it to access Ritter, the trail being familiar to him.
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
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Aug 16, 2013 - 08:56pm PT
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We now have available a 23-minute Blue Ray disk (about 20 gig) for people who can display this on a large monitor. The image quality is not generally quite high enough to spot people, but it has time codes on each frame and we are extracting high res still frames that are more detailed. If you review this video and send us the time code for an area of special interest, we can respond with a higher res image of that specific area. People in the Santa Cruz area could stop by the house and pick up a copy, or perhaps sit and look at it with us. I left a copy at Pacific Edge.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Potemkin Village
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Aug 16, 2013 - 09:05pm PT
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Tom, perhaps this has already been mentioned.
Could you break your video up into 2G files or so and then upload them to the internet to some file sharing site? Dropbox, eg, even Pirate Bay. Start with a sample, maybe, so we can get some idea of it.
I'd be happy to look through some pieces of it and report back promising areas for high resolution scrutiny.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Aug 16, 2013 - 09:50pm PT
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Those June Lake guys are elitist...Next time start from Agnew Meadows instead of June Lake...
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Lori Fairchild
Social climber
Lehighton
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Aug 16, 2013 - 10:09pm PT
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Has anyone checked the Agnews Meadow area? ---Posted on facebook
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10b4me
Ice climber
Wishes-He-Was-In-Arizona
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Aug 16, 2013 - 10:15pm PT
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Lori, Agnew Meadows is a very popular area. Unless he had a pre existing medical condition,
It would be hard to get injured at that location.
btw, did he have any previously reported medical
conditions?
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tdg119
Social climber
Northampton, PA
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Aug 16, 2013 - 10:18pm PT
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No medical issues...
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crankster
Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
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Aug 16, 2013 - 10:41pm PT
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I'm uncertain of some facts. In particular:
He had been with friends in the area, climbing & hiking. Are there details about what they climbed? That might help eliminate search areas; if he had climbed a particular peak, for instance, he would likely seek new terrain. I know he went to Clyde Minaret solo.
Did the friends he had been climbing/hiking with prior return to Mammoth to help determine exactly what gear of his was missing?
What happened to the group from PA who came to search? Their info could help others who might want to search.
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
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Aug 16, 2013 - 10:55pm PT
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looking at something in the center lower section of the glacier at the center of the image
Note that Cragman passed below this area in his recent TR and scanned with binoculars from their camp site. However it is not clear whether he had a clear view of this point due to the shape of intervening terrain.
I just re-read his TR (interesting how he mentions sensing presence up there...). It appears to me that the point we are looking at may not have been visible from their line of travel, based upon his posted picture looking in the direction of the glacier on Banner.
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crankster
Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
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Aug 16, 2013 - 11:49pm PT
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N. Face. . Banner Peak. Can't make out anything.
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
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Aug 17, 2013 - 12:11am PT
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What we are looking at is higher res than can be posted here. However we were not able to get close enough to get photos comparable to Tom Evans, due to our speed and turbulent air where we were sometimes gaining or losing hundreds of feet of elevation in moments, so had to leave ourselves some breathing space.
Edit: Just got off the phone with mattyj, who is now in Mammoth and planning a trip up Banner and Ritter starting tomorrow morning in a party of four. He thinks there may be a clear view of this point using good binoculars from the summit of Banner.
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Delhi Dog
climber
Good Question...
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Aug 17, 2013 - 12:24am PT
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I tend to follow the road MOST traveled.
The most obvious approach to the Ritter/ Banner area is Agnew Meadows trailhead to Shadow Lake, Ediza etc.
I went in that way on July 22 and while there is nothing technical or even difficult about that route it has occurred to me that the drainage below Shadow Lake as it drops into the San Joaquin is extremely steep and out of sight from the trail. There are several places where one is tempted to wander out onto the slabs and take a look. What went through my head when I did this was 'Geez if I was to fall here no one would find me for quite awhile'.
Just a thought. Anyone scour that area yet?
And yes tons of people along the way both in and out. I hiked into Ediza and fished my way back...except from the drop off down to the bridge where it crosses the San Joaquin.
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ß Î Ø T Ç H
Boulder climber
extraordinaire
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Aug 17, 2013 - 12:32am PT
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Might as well throw Volcanic Ridge into the hat too - there is seasonal snow/ ice(?) chutes facing north above Shadow Creek.
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10b4me
Ice climber
Wishes-He-Was-In-Arizona
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Aug 17, 2013 - 01:10am PT
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Tom, that last photo.. that orange thing looks out of place.
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
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Aug 17, 2013 - 01:13am PT
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the orange thing does seem out of place, but it does seem to cast a large shadow as does the rock above it...
there are other rocks in the range with a similar color, but not apparently in that area of Mt Banner
we understand that Matt left his burnt orange tent behind in Mammoth, but I wonder if he might have taken the rain fly with him and perhaps spread it out over a rock, realizing it would be more visible on the snow field??? I'll ask Tony... [Edit: i see from a photo, the rain fly is grey, not orange]
our RED CineX editing program let's us zoom in and out and all around as if we were there in a helicopter with a cart blanch fuel card...wish we could show it to you...
we have been endlessly browsing all around the images of range, and this has been the main thing that jumped out at us so far...
we do seem to have spotted another party on a snow field, three people wearing red, yellow, and green respectively
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mattyj
Mountain climber
Truckee
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Aug 17, 2013 - 02:16am PT
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I'm (note: not climbski2) going in to Ritter / Banner via Ediza tomorrow morning as a 3 day trip. I'm going to try to scope the orange object out through binoculars from the summit of Banner, but I'm not sure I'll be able to make out much more than the photo. If anything looks promising from that perspective, I'll hike out via Garnet in order to take a closer pass.
At this point I feel like there's enough reason for skepticism that it's not worth rerouting the trip to get up close and personal unless I can actually spot something interesting from afar. It's an unlikely location and Cragman passed close by; my instinct, for whatever that's worth, is that I'm better off re-searching the face of Ritter and the cliffs below the SE glacier, even though the odds of a find there are remote. If some last minute info proves otherwise and aerial resurveillance of the area isn't possible, I'll try to monitor the Mammoth HAM repeater when possible and can still make an exit via that route. KJ6LZA.
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
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Aug 17, 2013 - 02:38am PT
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i hope Cragman will chime in here, but it appears from his TR and posted photo of the area that he passed out of sight of the point we are looking at, which is quite a bit out of the way of his path, as well as that of mattyj
someone looking for a snow playground rather than a peak ascent might have been attracted to that NE glacier on Banner
so i agree the image on the glacier looks odd, but is unconfirmed unless perhaps a SAR team or Ed Roski and his SkyTime helo were there
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ß Î Ø T Ç H
Boulder climber
extraordinaire
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Aug 17, 2013 - 02:55am PT
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Let the dead bury their own dead.
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splitter
Trad climber
SoCal Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
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Aug 17, 2013 - 03:15am PT
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I've been wondering if he had his ID with him, or was it left at his camp site in town (Shady Rest)?
Reason being, I had a concussion in which I suffered short term (but full) amnesia around twenty or so years ago. It came to mind rather early on (been following the thread from day one) but its such a long shot that it may actually have anything to do with this, so I have been hesitating to say anything and wouldn't want to instill any false hope. But, it is one of the scenarios that has risen, and certainly possible. So, fwiw...
During the 89/90 ski season I took a job at Snow Summit (SS). For background info (relating to the situation) I had, previous to that, spent 8/9 seasons at Mammoth and later a couple at Tahoe (n & s shore).
So, when I regained conscience, after taking a fall one afternoon, at SS (which has clear views of Big Bear Lake) I suppose its not that unusual (like i said, i awoke with total amnesia) that the one and only question that I asked the patrolman that had kindly retrieved one of my skis (it was above me, the other one was below) was, "Is that Lake Tahoe?" Since I had spent more time skiing with views of that lake than at SS/BBL.
He simply gave me a disgusted look, shook his head and skied off. I suppose he thought I was being either incredibly obnoxious, or stupid. I thought it was a particularly appropriate question (didn't dawn on me until later that it could be misconstrued, for whatever reasons).
I mean, I awoke and it was as if I had just dropped out of the sky as a full grown human being with no past. I saw snow, a lake, and then very suddenly I was being handed a ski. I new what all these things were, but had absolutely no idea of, 1) where I was (pretty soon figured I was on a ski slope overlooking a lake). First it was a snow covered hill overlooking a lake, then (not until he handed me the ski) a ski hill. I had absolutely no idea what I was doing there, who I was, and whether or not I new how to ski, like i said, i had skied for close to 15 seasons (also a few in Utah resorts). I thought long and hard as to whether or not just walk down the hill, or step into the bindings and point them downhill. I did the latter and recall coming to the conclusion (after I had linked a few turns) "Well, I guess I know how to ski."
I recall getting to the bottom of the run just to find a lift line, and realizing that I would have to find my way back to the lodge and parking lot since it was not there. I had just checked all my pockets and found nothing (no money, ID - employee or otherwise/not that I was looking for anything in particular) except a Ford car key. I recall thinking, "Well I guess I have a Ford automobile".
My plan was to wait until closing (which I had figured would be at dark, but actually it wasn't, since they had night skiing) and that the parking lot would clear out and I would then check whatever Fords were left to see which one the key worked in.
When I went to get onto the lift I paused to ask the lift operator a question that seemed perfectly logical to me (it was just as off the wall as the "Tahoe question", but I have forgotten it). I recall the same reaction from him, plus he got pissed about me holding up the line on top of the dumb question (was pretty odd, but apropos for someone in my situation trying to piece the situation together, wish I could still remember it). Anyway, I recall coming to the conclusion that I was totally on my own and wasn't going to ask anymore questions from that point on.
The other thing that did suddenly come to me, when I was trying to think of who I was, was my fathers full name, 1st, middle, and last, but nothing else about him (what he looked like, etc), so I guess I didn't have total amnesia. But that was absolutely it for the next two or so hours. I also recall seeing my reflection in a mirror (went in the lodge very briefly) and didn't have a clue who I was looking at.
My only plan (or as far as I was thinking ahead) was find out what car was mine. The thing is, the key wouldn't had worked in any of the cars, Ford or otherwise. I also had a chevie van (that was the key to my Ford truck). I had taken the van and had left that key hidden on it.
Fortunately, my memory came back in a rush around 4pm (fell around 2pm)! I realized where I was, and that I had a job there (prep cook). And the name I had remembered wasn't only my fathers, but also mine (i'm a jr.)!
Not sure, but once I had figured I couldn't find my car (or didn't have one there) I would probably taken the next step and figured out that I couldn't get far in a pair of ski boots (i had no interest in skiing any longer, even if I had stayed in the area, it is pretty much just survival mode). It would have probably seemed perfectly logical to trade the boots for a pair of tennies or shoes with someone there and perhaps the skis for enough money to buy a few meals (they were both top of the line) or if they were burdensome, just ditch them. You are just thinking, "I am at A, I need to get to B." Your not even thinking about C!
Going to the ski patrol (they had already struck out once anyway) or the sheriff, etc, didn't even cross my mind. I didn't think of it as "amnesia". I wasn't fearful or whatever, just simply moving forward. I do think you retain certain aspects of your personality. For instance, i tend to be very independent, and avoid crowds. Fairly comfortable around one or two people though (strangers even), and prefer to hang out/interact with people I know rather than not. But if I didn't know anyone, I would be very aloof , even avoid contact with anyone. I recall listening to people in the lodge talking about everyday things and that seemed very abstract, or of little interest or necesscity. I also remember thinking that I didn't even have a name to tell them, let alone anything to discuss. I think that Matt may have a few similar traits (independent, etc).
Anyway, in that type of scenario, I could very easily picture myself (or Matt, perhaps) passing through Minden, looking a little scruffy & disheleved, and taking life at one hurdle and one day at a time.
As far as an ID with a name and address, 1) i would just have a name that I could tell people if they happened to ask me. It wouldn't have meant anything else. Ditto with the address. I would have simply thought, "Well, I guess I lived there at one time." Perhaps I would have headed in that direction, but could have easily reasoned that it would be of more immediate concern to go or do something else. You just do not think the same. You certainly don't have anything pulling you back or to something you once had or new, because there is nothing.
As far as a cell phone, I would most likely thought. "Oh, I guess I have a phone." And like the car key, perhaps I would have been curious enough to try and get it to work and maybe redial, or whatever (dunno, we didn't have cell phones then). But, it could have been easily discarded or perhaps traded for whatever. You would be talking to someone that you had no clue who they were. You wouldn't even know who to tell them you were, so what difference would it make? Or that was my frame of mind anyway (very difficult to explain). Pass relationships wouldn't have meant anything. They wouldn't have been worth pursuing anymore than someone I had just met on the street (of course they would, I just didn't relate to it that way).
Oh well, this probably isn't much of a help (kind of a lame story, lol)...but it is all I have to offer. It really breaks my heart to look at Matts pic, think of how he had simply awoken to another beautiful eastern sierra morning (in a town where i have done the same thing, again and again, once upon a time) think of his predicament, how something took an abrupt turn in his life (for better or worse), think of all that has been said and done, and think of all those close to him. I hope he is found soon, he will remain in my prayers until then.
edit: much respect for all involved. and hey, it cud be anyone of us, or one of our loved ones.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Aug 17, 2013 - 03:32am PT
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Freaking cool story splitter. Reminds me of a concussion I once got in the backcountry.. had a bit more memory than you did. recognized where I was.. but had no freaking idea how I got there or what happened before I knocked the crap out of my chin with either my knee or skipole.
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
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Aug 17, 2013 - 03:48am PT
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doing some further research on the imagery of the Mt Banner glacier
in one pass there appears to be a person standing and waving at us
in several other passes, there is clearly no one standing there
whoever it is, probably not Matt...
i am not ready to give up on Matt...
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oakgirl
Trad climber
Oakland
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Aug 17, 2013 - 05:43am PT
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I think we should keep in mind that just because he ripped out 30 pgs, it doesn't mean that he had all of them with him. I regularly x-acto pgs out before trips, and I end up with series' of pgs neatly folded in plastic ziplocks, not all of which are with me on a given trip. I'm a 5'2" 110 lb. woman, and I don't want to carry a single extra ounce! I even use thin ziplocks:) I also never go into backcountry without a map, even if I've been there a bunch of times; you never know when you might need to get out a different way than you've gone before.
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tdg119
Social climber
Northampton, PA
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Aug 17, 2013 - 08:09am PT
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To answer the few questions I actually can...
Two of the group from home that went back to CA to search were the couple that'd been there w him the first week of June. Thy knew his ger and helped authorities on th front; including pointing out gear in Matt's spare tire well of Matts car (the more $$ stuff). So, gear list is accurate: yellow La Sportiva Nepal mountaineering boots, step-in crampons, an ice axe, and his Mountin Hardware South Col Backpack. He had his wallet, cell phone (NOT a smart phone), and digital camera as well.
I rec'd n update from Tony but it's a bit generalized...
"Hi Tiffany,
Finally had a few minutes to give you an update.......I just sent this to the Channel 69 reporter.
...........We spent 3 days searching the Minarets. It is a line of sharp peaks up to about 12,300 ft. They have steep snowfields on both sides and besides Mts Ritter and Banner (searched by SAR) are logical objectives for Matt within this area outside of Mammoth. At this time of year most of the lesser snowfields are gone, but there are still some steep extensive ones. A couple of us worked our way around the west side and climbed a couple of them to check summit registers and get a birds eye view. Others scoured the lower areas and edges of the snowfields.
We had an offer from a group from Pal Alto to do do some high definition video of the area that we can analyze on the ground.
Jill and Andrea did a great job of canvasing town, the forestry office and trailheads talking to people and putting up more posters.
It is clear that Matt's story has spread widely out here and we have had tremendous support here. I was even approached in Denver airport by a well wisher who recognized the significance of my 'Help find Matt' t-shirt.
This is a massive area and the high terrain is very challenging and the rock very uneven with many gullies and areas that are hard to search from any distance.
I am just finishing this email as we wrap things up for now in Mammoth. I spent 2 hours guiding a pilot and cameraman this morning. We got a lot of high definition video that will be processed quickly and then can be reviewed. The search continues.
I will be leaving tomorrow morning to head back to PA with Matt's car and gear.
Bill Green the SAR leader here in Mammoth has continued to be a tremendous help. If the video or anything else gives us a new lead he will pursue it immediately!!!!!
I expect to be home by late Sunday. I will be in touch.
Tony"
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Delhi Dog
climber
Good Question...
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Aug 17, 2013 - 09:33am PT
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"Delhi Dog, interesting that you would mention the drainage of Shadow and that steep drop into the chasm....as we passed it, Doug and I mentioned the same thing. I believe it would be worthy to set up a belay and look into the various spots along that stretch."
Wish I could head back in there to do that but I'm not even close anymore.
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mattyj
Mountain climber
Truckee
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Aug 17, 2013 - 10:50am PT
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Others scoured the lower areas and edges of the snowfields.
I took that to mean the east side glaciers, but it's ambiguously worded.
TheMaster, even if no explicit searching took place, my impression is that people access the saddle from Lake Catherine on a semi-regular basis. Could be wrong about that. A body floating at the surface would hopefully have a reasonable chance of getting seen even if people weren't looking for him.
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tdg119
Social climber
Northampton, PA
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Aug 17, 2013 - 12:29pm PT
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Per Jill: If Cragman means the glacier below the north notch, they did search that area.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Aug 17, 2013 - 01:00pm PT
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TomC
can you post a wide angle pic with the location of the orange object circled? From your written description I can't guess at the locale.
Cragman
Isn't that Clyde Minaret on the far left of your pic?
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
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Aug 17, 2013 - 01:15pm PT
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the general area of the orange object (rock?) is the image i posted just above it...NE glacier below Banner Peak
it is roughly half way along the lower margin of the glacier in a darker area where water is draining from the glacier into a gully
we made multiple passes around the range
there are lots of people in the area
our current thinking is that someone was there during one of our passes, but not others
as cragman mentions, it is much easier to spot people on snowfields than on talus rock slopes
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
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Aug 17, 2013 - 01:32pm PT
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i am sending an edited compilation of our search videos on Blue Ray disks to some of you
these are interesting to provide perspective on the search area and evaluate areas that have been searched, but are not sufficiently high res to spot people
we have about 100 gigs of RED RAW video which can be burned onto 5 Blue Ray disks
people who can edit/view these in Final Cut Pro and/or RED CineX Pro or Avid, etc. can request a copy for search analysis purposes
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fluffy
Trad climber
Colorado
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Aug 17, 2013 - 01:33pm PT
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is thermal imaging available for your platform Tom?
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Aug 17, 2013 - 02:02pm PT
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TeddyKGeeBee (Tom)
I'm glad you posted that list!
However some of the nomenclature is ambiguous. For instance, "North notch from Cecile lake" could mean 2 different routes that I know of, high and low, both steep.
Can you post a sketch or map link showing the locations/areas of the known searches?
Has anyone searched IN the creeks? Shadow Creek, Minaret Creek are both substantial in places. Under fallen logs and overhanging snags?
Checked Volcanic Ridge? More complex that it first appears.
Might he have taken a detour to explore Minaret Mine?
Even if an ice route in the Minarets/Ritter/Banner were his objective, the hike in has its own off route appeals and dangers.
I know you and Matt's other friends are doing all you can to find him. The more detail the rest of us have the more we can help.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Aug 17, 2013 - 02:18pm PT
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Cragman
I might be able to get out late this coming week for 3 or 4 days. Need to get into the high peaks anyway. Will keep you posted.
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10b4me
Ice climber
Wishes-He-Was-In-Arizona
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Aug 17, 2013 - 04:02pm PT
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seems strange that if Matt wanted to get on some snow, he would choose the glacier below that aspect of Banner.
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mattyj
Mountain climber
Truckee
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Aug 17, 2013 - 04:27pm PT
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Checking in from the trail via sketchy cell coverage. Was able to search the base of the slabs immediately downstream from the waterfall below shadow; likely no benefit in going back out there with ropes.
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tdg119
Social climber
Northampton, PA
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Aug 17, 2013 - 04:38pm PT
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FWIW, I was told the crampons were borrowed; he had strap-on crampons in his own gear & borrowed his friends strep-in crampons. i Believe they belonged to the guy out there with the first week of July.
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10b4me
Ice climber
Wishes-He-Was-In-Arizona
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Aug 17, 2013 - 04:51pm PT
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FWIW, I was told the crampons were borrowed; he had strap-on crampons in his own gear & borrowed his friends step-ins. Believe they belonged to the guy out there with the first week of July.
I hope they fit properly
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
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Aug 17, 2013 - 04:55pm PT
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Thank you, mattyj!
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10b4me
Ice climber
Wishes-He-Was-In-Arizona
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Aug 17, 2013 - 05:45pm PT
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he borrowed the strap-on crampons.
fwiw, I've found that strap on crampons to be problematic at times. On the other hand, step-in crampons, properly fitted, are pretty bomber.
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cyberdee
Trad climber
Lynwood, CA
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Aug 17, 2013 - 06:24pm PT
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Just wondering, but has anyone tried a search/ scent dog? Even though it has been almost a month, trained dogs have had good results.
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tdg119
Social climber
Northampton, PA
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Aug 17, 2013 - 07:48pm PT
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I asked about search dogs and was told between length of time passed, smoke from wildfire overriding scent, and difficulty of terrain they just wouldn't bring dogs in.
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WBraun
climber
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Aug 17, 2013 - 08:12pm PT
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You need medicine man now.
Medicine man sits at point last seen and tries to connect with Matt's spirit soul.
Then will lead to his mortal body.
But only if allowed .......
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
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Aug 17, 2013 - 08:15pm PT
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what WB said
meanwhile we are burning sets of five Blue Ray disks with 100 GB of RED RAW data for those who can work with it
we are also extracting still images for each of the major snowfields in the area of interest to post here and on Facebook as JPEGs for search coordination purposes
those with Aperture running on a Mac will be able to zoom into search detailed views of these still images if i send them to you as TIF files
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tdg119
Social climber
Northampton, PA
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Aug 17, 2013 - 11:24pm PT
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Jill sent me the following msg - guess I'd been right the first time.
For cragman... John can't tell what that picture is to confirm if it was searched.
His crampons missing were john's step in, his strap ins were with his year. They fit fine, he climbed 3000 ft of ice with them this summer.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Aug 17, 2013 - 11:27pm PT
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meanwhile we are burning sets of five Blue Ray disks with 100 GB of RED RAW data for those who can work with it
Glad to hear it. Resolution is gonna be key. Even if it takes longer to work with.
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phylp
Trad climber
Millbrae, CA
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Aug 17, 2013 - 11:31pm PT
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the top couple inches is soft....down below that, bulletproof. A two-fold danger....balling up in the crampons which could EASILY cause a fall
A report with exactly this scenario in last year's Accidents in NAM. Very experienced climber...
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Delhi Dog
climber
Good Question...
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Aug 18, 2013 - 12:35am PT
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Good work mattyj.
That's been bugging me for awhile now.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
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Aug 18, 2013 - 01:59am PT
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Tom,
You can make Hi-Res 3D stereopairs ... it would really help. Nothing like seeing depth of field to determine what you're looking at.
Zoom in and view with a pokescope or similar viewer:
http://www.pokescope.com/pokescopeinfo.html
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
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Aug 18, 2013 - 02:20am PT
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
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Aug 18, 2013 - 02:49am PT
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SalNichols
Big Wall climber
Richmond, CA
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Aug 18, 2013 - 04:56am PT
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Klimmer, you do know that two copies of the same image DO NOT make a stereo image...right? Unless Tom was shooting with two side by side cameras, you're not going to get the parallax needed for depth perception. Great idea though.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
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Aug 18, 2013 - 09:45am PT
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Aug 18, 2013 - 01:56am PT
Klimmer, you do know that two copies of the same image DO NOT make a stereo image...right? Unless Tom was shooting with two side by side cameras, you're not going to get the parallax needed for depth perception. Great idea though.
Wrong. Aerial remote sensing to make 3D images only requires a certain percent % overlap in sequential imagery of a flight line. The above images posted from Tom's work are in 3D for everything overlapping. They were a perfect example.
Grab a textbook on photogrammetry. A whole science is developed around this technique. NASA and all the Earth Sciences use this technique for mapping, making topo maps, looking at the surface of the Moon, Mars. etc etc.
A lot of Hi-Res up-close 3D images can be made from Tom's original imagery with sequential frames of overlap.
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monolith
climber
SF bay area
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Aug 18, 2013 - 10:25am PT
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Klimmer can make bad images that fool him, like believing there is an Ark on the moon or his claim that the plane going east over LA was actually a missile going the opposite direction.
[unnecessary link deleted]
Klimmer has had very poor results with his 3D obsession, so I wouldn't put any hope in his work.
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
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Aug 18, 2013 - 11:17am PT
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early this morning finished the task taking many hours to download the RED RAW files to sets of five Blue Ray disks
be sure that i know who has the facilities to view these...i.e. Final Cut Pro, RED CineX, Avid, or Aperture...
seconding Cragman, please lay off on the discrimination against Klimmer, he makes some valuable contributions that i appreciate
i agree that two subsequent frames taken in flight past the same area can be aligned to a center point and processed into 3D pairs, providing a valuable search technique that i would like to learn to do
this is a technique that was used extensively by a photo analysis team in England during WWII using Spitfire fighters modified with large format cameras flying some of the most challenging sorties of the war to identify the V1 and V2 launch sites and target them for the bombers just before D-day
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tdg119
Social climber
Northampton, PA
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Aug 18, 2013 - 11:24am PT
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For Cragman:
"I think that is the glacier we visited. We traversed the northwest shore of Cecile lake about 100 ft above the lake. At the end of the lake went slightly left up rock rib and gully . Some class 4 climbing to get up to snow/ glacier. Then diagonally traversed the glacier from climbers left to climbers right up to north notch from notch we could look directly down to iceberg lake. Then went down notch on west side and searched gully system to the left as we were descending. West side of notch was very loose and dangerous but no signs of recent passage. Generally retraced our steps back up and thru notch and down to Cecile an then minaret lake . If he wants to talk PM out phone number.
Thank you
Jill"
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Aug 18, 2013 - 11:34am PT
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monolith makes some important points regarding the difficulties of reconstructing a 3D representation from a series of 2D shots...
I have read photogrammetry texts, and have worked extensively in understanding this sort of reconstruction.
What is important to remember is that the reconstructions are NOT unique, and especially where the attributes of the camera are unknown and/or uncalibrated, and the positions and times and attitudes of the camera are not known precisely and accurately.
To perform the reconstructions and eliminate these unknowns with the data is a very complex process which would take more time then we have, and skills and computer power which we also do not have (collectively).
The subsequent 3D reconstructions may provide clues which are questionable, and lead searchers into harms way. As such, it is irresponsible to advocate that the simple minded 3D reconstructions be acted upon in a SAR setting. The last thing anyone wants is to have any more tragedy heaped onto this event.
It is important to remember that we can get an apparent 3D reconstruction easily, but when we are using it to provide this sort of information, those easy reconstructions may not correspond to ground truth.
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
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Aug 18, 2013 - 11:51am PT
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i have moved the aerial imagery to a separate thread 'Ritter Range Aerial Search Imagery'
my hope is these may prove useful for area familiarization and coordinating searches
these seem to be the highest res accepted by SuperTopo, but are not adequate to spot a person
we are able to zoom in substantially on the original images using tools such as RED CineX or Aperture
we ave a few copies for people who are set up with Aperture or another similar program of your choice
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10b4me
Ice climber
Wishes-He-Was-In-Arizona
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Aug 18, 2013 - 11:53am PT
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Tom, can you refresh my memory? Where was the photo taken that looked like someone was waving at you?
Thanks
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
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Aug 18, 2013 - 11:57am PT
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that is the northeast glacier on Banner Peak, near the lower margin of the glacier
that glacier might be interesting for snow/ice climbing, but does not provide a summit route unless you are looking for a challenging rock climb
we made multiple passes of that area, and the interesting anomaly only appears in one pass (there are normally lots of people wandering around up there)
however this is typical of why we have been thinking about going up for another run
we would also like to try a faster frame rate and shutter speed
on a calm day we can also approach terrain more closely...and/or we could handhold the RED camera from a helicopter
it is actually easier and more economical on fuel for us to go to the range directly from our home airport so we don't have to add in the 9000' descent and climb back out of Mammoth Airport in the Owens Valley
we have been spending many hours looking at images that you could only see at a glance while up in the air
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10b4me
Ice climber
Wishes-He-Was-In-Arizona
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Aug 18, 2013 - 12:07pm PT
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Ok. Yeah, that's the one I mentioned up thread about an improbable place to go.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Aug 18, 2013 - 12:10pm PT
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you didn't need 3D to do that, Ron... just high resolution 2D...
and if the camera is set up to be a stereoscopic camera, taking two simultaneous images with well defined separation and well calibrated cameras... you're way ahead of the game.
In this case, there is one uncalibrated camera, pointed by hand on a moving platform of unknown position and velocity...
...how is that "easy"?
and on the basis of that information, you're going to claim enough "truth" to send people into some of those places?
You may be comfortable doing that, I am very much not. Let's be responsible here, you haven't the faintest idea of what it takes to provide the sort of information from 3D reconstructions that would justify the risks.
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
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Aug 18, 2013 - 12:38pm PT
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the WWII photo analysts were using a single camera out of the belly of a Spitfire
i have to go offline for a while to shuffle equipment, you can still contact me by email
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Aug 18, 2013 - 12:48pm PT
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I do know something about USFS aerial photography, enough to know that it is a process, not just a random set of images shot by an unknown camera... please Ron.
the speed of a plane being, say 120 miles per hour is 176 feet per second
I don't know the framing rate of the camera, I believe this camera has a variable frame rate from 1 to 120 frames per second...
then the minimum interframe displacement is: 176/120 = 1.47 feet
If the distance to the object is say, 1000 feet then the angular separation of those two frames is:
1.47/1000 = 1.47 milliradians
with 4000 pixel resolution each pixel has a 1.47 mrad/4000 = 36 microradian angular resolution.
Note that such a close spacing of images of adjacent frames will give a poor distance to object reconstruction, you would like the frames to be much more separated (you need parallax).
In addition, the angular velocity of the aircraft is something like 176/1000 = 0.176 radians per second...
This camera may also have a "rolling shutter" which means that the rows of pixels are read out at different times, which means the image is composed of rows taken at different angles, further complicating the reconstruction of even the 2D images...
It depends on the details of the camera...
finally, the aircraft position and attitude may be known for its trajectory, this has to be cross calibrated with the cameras position and attitude for its trajectory (mostly an issue of getting the two time bases calibrated). This is not inconsequential, and much of the information is missing (I don't believe the camera records its position and attitude internally).
If you had the intention of doing a 3D reconstruction you'd take care of these issues before you shot the images... and made sure that the required information exists and that the necessary calibrations are performed, and that the flight trajectory planned to obtain the optimal images for the reconstruction you are attempting.
If you all want to claim that the 3D information is sufficient to send SAR into the areas based on that information you should think more carefully than giving irrelevant anecdotal justification.
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crankster
Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
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Aug 18, 2013 - 12:52pm PT
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I'm sure some have interesting backgrounds in aerial SAR, but can we refocus this to the search for Matt?
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10b4me
Ice climber
Wishes-He-Was-In-Arizona
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Aug 18, 2013 - 12:55pm PT
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Has anyone asked at Mammoth Mountaineering if they saw, or talked to Matt?
One of the first things I do, if i am in a new area, is to hit up the local climbing shop for beta.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Aug 18, 2013 - 01:02pm PT
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the 2D images may be useful (though see Werner's post up above) the 3D reconstructions wouldn't be a good use of time,
much better to have someone who really knows the area look at the images
we have a lot of experience with these sorts of events, and we know with high confidence that they resolve over a long time
I'm not going to comment anymore on this
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Aug 18, 2013 - 01:18pm PT
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Regarding Tom Cochranes Blu-ray Disks and RAW footage.
RED CineX pro and RED player are free downloads from the company. Seem to be full versions not trials and no need for a registration key.
My copies seems to be working.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
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Aug 18, 2013 - 03:39pm PT
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I'm not going to comment anymore on this
And you shouldn't.
I've had university course work in Aerial photogrammetry and remote sensing and worked in environmental consulting for 5 years looking at 9" x 9" 80% overlapping high resolution b&w aerials for surveying work day after day after day.
It can be done with one camera, sequential shots, separated by large distances. The greater the horizontal distance between sequential images the greater the parallax effect. Which can be a hyper effect but very, very useful.
It isn't hard to do and we've been doing it since the time photography was invented and we could get up in the air above the landscape ...
Aerial Stereo Photography:
http://www.stereoscopy.com/faq/aerial.html
http://www.stereoscopy.com/faq/photogrammetry.html
Aerial photography:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aerial_photography
DIY Aerial photography with drones …
Automatically turn your 2D aerial imagery into 3D
Posted by Chris Anderson on May 20, 2011 at 9:48am
http://diydrones.com/profiles/blog/show?id=705844%3ABlogPost%3A380711
http://www.sensefly.com/operations/overview.html
3D Aerial Photography + Join Group
Photographs taken from the air, from kites, balloons, planes or rockets that have two overlapping images allowing real 3D viewing by...
http://www.flickr.com/groups/aerial3d/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stereoscopy
Longer base line for distant objects "Hyper Stereo"
"For making stereo images featuring only a distant object (e.g., a mountain with foothills), the camera positions can be separated by a larger distance (called the "interaxial" or stereo base, often mistakenly called "interocular") than the adult human norm of 62–65mm. This will effectively render the captured image as though it was seen by a giant, and thus will enhance the depth perception of these distant objects, and reduce the apparent scale of the scene proportionately.[32] However, in this case care must be taken not to bring objects in the close foreground too close to the viewer, as they will show excessive parallax and can complicate stereo window adjustment.
There are two main ways to accomplish this. One is to use two cameras separated by the required distance, the other is to shift a single camera the required distance between shots.
The shift method has been used with cameras such as the Stereo Realist to take hypers, either by taking two pairs and selecting the best frames, or by alternately capping each lens and recocking the shutter.[28][33]
It is also possible to take hyperstereo pictures using an ordinary single lens camera aiming out an airplane. One must be careful, however, about movement of clouds between shots.[34]
It has even been suggested that a version of hyperstereo could be used to help pilots fly planes.[35]
In such situations, where an ortho stereo viewing method is used, a common rule of thumb is the 1:30 rule.[36] This means that the baseline will be equal to 1/30 of the distance to the nearest object included in the photograph.
The results of hyperstereo can be quite impressive,[37][38][39] and examples of hyperstereo can be found in vintage views.[40]
This technique can be applied to 3D imaging of the Moon: one picture is taken at moonrise, the other at moonset, as the face of the Moon is centered towards the center of the Earth and the diurnal rotation carries the photographer around the perimeter, though the results are rather poor,[41] and much better results can be obtained using alternative techniques.[41]
This is why high quality published stereos of the moon are done using libration,[42][43] [44][45] the slight "wobbling" of the moon on its axis relative to the earth.[46] Similar techniques were used late in the 19th century to take stereo views of Mars and other astronomical subjects.[46] “
Edit:
3D from aerial photography video can be a great application for searching for lost people that might be exposed in the aerial imagery ...
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Aug 18, 2013 - 04:11pm PT
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Norman Clyde succeeded in finding Walter Starr Jr by:
Thinking out what equipment Starr had with him;
Working from his last known location (camp at Upper Iceberg Lake, I believe now known as Cecile Lake);
Knowing he had climbed Michael Minaret previously on the trip (summit register and photograph)
Exhaustively pursuing all likely routes;
Re-searching routes that Eichorn/Dawson et. al had already searched;
Looking very closely around him;
Luck;
Known facts:
We know what Matt had with him. Principally ice axe, crampons, no significant camping gear.
The last peak he climbed was Clyde Minaret just prior to his last excursion.
He would have been well aware of the local snow and ice conditions at that time (Clyde has a 360 degree view).
Tom Cochrane's photos show very little ice and snow in the range right now.
Given these facts, I would presume he was deliberately bound for an objective requiring firm snow/ice travel at least on the approach or descent.
This should narrow the search area of most probable success to the regions above, on and beneath the snow/ice in Tom's photos.
Also any likely bivvy sites, primarily the lake shores.
There may be something to gain by re-searching previously searched locations with a different pair of eyes.
Matt COULD be anywhere out there.
Searching moats/bergschrunds should not be taken lightly. They are highly unpredictable and can be very difficult to escape even with assistance.
(a climber died in the Tetons in mid-July after falling into a moat at an opening in a snowfield. He was seen by a nearby guide (with radio), was retrieved alive in less than an hour, helo'ed to a hospital and still failed to revive).
Be careful out there.
<putting away my Nanny hat>
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Aug 18, 2013 - 04:14pm PT
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Tom
your photo with the orange blob.
Is that a true color image or enhanced? Or false color from a converted IR image?
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
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Aug 19, 2013 - 01:29am PT
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we did minor color, ASA and exposure corrections only to improve resolution...pretty close to true (human eye perception) color
as Cragman points out, there are lots of rocks in that area with that color
it is an odd chance that this color is similar to Matt Greene's tent...which he did not carry with him...and his rain fly is grey...
the RED camera is rather sensitive to IR, which is why we use an IR filter, to prevent washing out the human sensitive color spectrum
i haven't looked into using this IR sensitivity to detect warm bodies i.e. using a visible light filter that passes only the IR...i don't have one of these in my big collection of Hoya or Tiffin filters
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aguacaliente
climber
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Aug 19, 2013 - 03:28am PT
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Tom, the IR sensitivity in a typical digital camera detector, like a CCD or CMOS, would not be good for detecting people or animals. Its sensitivity probably only goes out to about 1 micron or less. You would need a thermal IR camera (~10 microns) to detect heat from a person. Thermal IR cameras exist, but the detector technology is different and typically much lower pixel count than cameras designed for the optical.
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Matt J.
Trad climber
Castro Valley, CA
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Aug 19, 2013 - 03:41pm PT
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This may not be much help, but just in case, I climbed Amelia Earhart Peak from Lyell Canyon on Aug. 16. No sign of Matt on east or west sides of Potter Point, nor in the register.
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crusher
climber
Santa Monica, CA
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Aug 19, 2013 - 06:00pm PT
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//Upthread post by "Tioga":
//Aug 15, 2013 - 07:16pm PT
I've looked at the videos--he does look a lot like the person I've seen in Luther Pass/Big Meadow... but then, again, there can be a lot of people who look alike. I've seen that person wearing ball cap/hat mostly, and only once without a hat--he had receding hairline, so very high forehead, and his height appeared to be about 5'10-5'11ish.. The video doesn't show a lot, of course, and the helmet is on.
I didn't notice many details--whatever I noticed back then I forgot by now, like the tent and the car, if there was one (backpackers like to stay in this camp sometimes, it's a primitive camp near Tahoe Rim trail). That person was in site #1 or 2 (these are back to back sites), and the tents in one of these sites tend to be way back where you can't see them. No facial hair. Sites #1 and 2 share one parking spot there, so you can't tell whose cars are parked, actually.
Ok something is bothering me. Tioga - did you see this picture of Matt?
Check the hairline (a little bit of "recession") - just wanted to revisit this because it was sort of nagging at the back of my mind.
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crusher
climber
Santa Monica, CA
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Aug 19, 2013 - 07:59pm PT
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Thanks Tioga.
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tdg119
Social climber
Northampton, PA
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Aug 19, 2013 - 08:01pm PT
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I am not a hiker but I am athletic and have played organized sports. When I was out with Matt, it was clear he is a professional. Like a baseball player, or anyone in the game, he gets in the zone when he's out there. He doesn't stop to look around, he is focused. His every step is precise, calculated, and intuitive. He would not appear to wonder aimlessly, or look around at the views. Unless of course he wants to stop and take in all in (usually for about 10 minutes while he eats, then it's back up and moving again). -Ron Minto
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crankster
Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
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Aug 19, 2013 - 08:27pm PT
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Tiffany,
I saw this on High Sierra Topix. Is it accurate?
"Climbs he did in prior days:
Unicorn peak
mammoth crest
Clyde minaret (verified with reg signature)
Dana couloir
north peak
palasades v notch-
reigeluth minaret"
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tdg119
Social climber
Northampton, PA
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Aug 19, 2013 - 08:38pm PT
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Crankster,
This info came from Tom Davidcock and Matt's friends - I can't say but I'm sure they will confirm.
Saw on the visit Mammoth FB page it's raining and storming...hoping it will uncover some clues. I know nothing of hiking (to those extremes)...just been trying to bug the ol' detective to trace the loction of those last calls/texts. Frustrated by lack of response.
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crankster
Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
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Aug 19, 2013 - 09:36pm PT
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Thanks, Tiffany, we are all thinking of you and your family and hope Matt is found soon.
Knowing what Matt climbed helps paint a better picture. He'd obviously been picking off classics of the Sierra from Mammoth north to Tuolumne Meadows in Yosemite NP. The Dana Couloir and North Peak (he probably climbed one of the couloirs on the north side) are moderate snow & ice climbs. The one exception is the V-Notch Couloir in the Palisade's. This is south of Mammoth and is a more serious climb than the others. Presumably, he had a partner.
Given the lack of overnight gear, I'd agree the probability is he headed to the Ritter/Banner/Minarets area. And, of course, the lack of a car.
However, he could have gotten a ride to another trailhead from someone not following the news, someone from a foreign country perhaps.
His gear list is the result of his friends going through his gear and eliminating items from memory. It's possible he might have had a sleeping bag liner or bivy sack they were not aware of. This would expand his climbing objectives.
He will be found. Hang in there.
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mattyj
Mountain climber
Truckee
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Aug 19, 2013 - 11:29pm PT
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I'll try to limit my speculation and keep this to facts as much as possible. I'm including photos for context; if they're too distracting from the thread let me know and I'll turn them into links instead.
The basic itinerary was: hike in on Sat, climb Banner and Ritter via the saddle and descend the SE glacier on Sun, hike out Monday. This was a previously scheduled training with my bay area SAR team, and although the primary goal for these kinds of trainings is to build mountaineering experience and learn to work in small teams in an alpine environment, we kept our eyes open as much as possible. Besides, absent any further information about Matt's plans, summiting the peaks seemed like as good a search plan as anything else.
On the way in, I tried accessing the cliffs above shadow creek from the trail only to discover that Cragman and Delhi Dog ain't no fools, it really would be dangerous to try and peek over the edge. I crossed upstream near the outlet of the lake and backtracked to the far side, which gave me a good view of the cliffs. There are two main pools; I was able to get right up to the lower one but the upper one would probably require rope access. Regardless, looking down from both sides gave me pretty good coverage. I didn't check further downstream; if the river were strong enough to flush Matt out of that area I wouldn't have seen him. The bases of the waterfalls were also impossible to check due to turbulent water and would be dangerous to enter now; perhaps worth a visit in late fall when the water levels have receded further.
After setting up camp at Ediza, we headed up to the pond at 10k and spent an hour and change glassing the cliff band below the Ritter glacier. We were right near the pond's exit; I'm by no means implying that our search was exhaustive, but if anyone wants to put in more binocular time it might be most productive to pick a different perspective.
We got an early start the next morning and mostly hauled butt up to the saddle and then the summit of Banner. Given the thunderstorm risk, the plan was to get up Ritter as quickly as possible and then take our time on the descent. The snow chute is starting to develop a gap and may be pretty tricky in another month or so.
It's hard to see from the photo, but at this point it looks like the glacier stops well short of Lake Catherine. I say looks because I wasn't able to get a perfect view. Given the rock deposition on it I wouldn't necessarily expect a falling climber to slide all the way to the lake, but a month ago, who knows.
The summit didn't have a good view of Banner's SE glacier, but by moving right a bit I was able to get a decent view of the base. I think I eliminated Tom Cochrane's orange object as a rock; I'm certain that I saw an orange rock but not 100% clear whether it was in the same location as his pic. I also glassed the glacier for a bit and didn't see anything out of place. The white parts were easy, but a body on the dirty/black areas could have escaped my notice - I had limited time as we were in a hurry to get up Ritter. For what it's worth the glacier is also seriously crevassed - it looks like it belongs in the Cascades not the Sierra - and hopefully if Matt realized this he would have stayed off of it. Most/all of the seasonal snow has melted off, but if anyone does want to search that area on foot I would still strongly suggest being roped and rigged for crevasse rescue.
The snow chute to the saddle doesn't have significant moats. We didn't search the moats at the top of the catherine glacier, but: 1) the moat at the base of the route is very narrow and shallow. If it stays like that along its entire length - a big if - it's unlikely that a body would land in it. We practically had to squeeze into it when taking our crampons off, and a bouncing object would probably have sailed right over the top. And 2) the top of the snowfield was getting very icy. We brought soft soled boots and lightweight crampons; in order to safely search the the moats I would have wanted stiff soled boots and nice step-in crampons, at a minimum.
I'd hoped to spend more time in the talus fields up top, but the t-storm system was really starting to brew when we hit the summit so we booked it down to the base of the Ritter glacier. My climbing partners headed back to camp while I spent about two and a half hours searching the bench/slab area immediately below the glacier and glassing some of the heavy rockfall areas on the glacier itself. Only find was a blue non-collapsible trekking pole, which is likely unrelated to Matt.
As a note, there is a tremendous amount of rockfall on the glacier itself. In the photo below, the circled area looks like talus but is really rockfall on top of ice. I probably counted 4 rockfalls in the hour I was up near the base. Even if you moved quickly through the area it would be possible for your number to simply come up short. Matt could have been struck by rockfall up there, but hanging out searching every dip and crevice on the glacier would have an unfathomably high risk/reward ratio.
The top of the SE glacier is serious terrain. Even ignoring the risk of searching the bergschrund, access would be difficult and the glacier itself leads nowhere; it's hard to imagine a set of circumstances that would make Matt (or anyone) decide to climb to the top of the thing.
The only places where I thought I had a decent chance of finding Matt, and am therefore reasonably certain he isn't there, were shadow creek and the banner glacier - and then, only in the white parts.
The one bit of speculation I'll engage in is that most people I know who would do Ritter and/or Banner in a day - and granted, that's not many - would never dream of carrying mountaineering boots in their backpack. Gore trex trail runners or light hikers, mini gaiters and some aluminum strap-ons. Obviously I'm hesitant to project that onto Matt's mindset, but every time I looked up at the glacier below Minarets, I found myself thinking "now that looks like the sort of serious terrain I'd want real boots for".
On the way out we bumped into a pair from Mono SAR that was hiking in from Agnew on yet another search. You guys stay busy - I'm sure it's overwhelming at times but I know some bay area folk who would appreciate having that kind of callout volume. They gave us directions to the CP and asked us to fill the guys there in on our efforts, which we did, whatever benefit that will bring.
It's easy to get caught up in a thread like this and start to think it's some sort of official last word, that arguments and decisions made here somehow have bearing outside of ST. Obviously that's not the case, but sometimes it feels that way emotionally. Keep that in mind when arguing about particular tools, the benefits of aerial photography, etc.
Edit: I forgot to add that the reason I mentioned this was a SAR training is that we were wearing our team t-shirts, and all manner of people asked us if we were out there searching for Matt. We tried to explain that we weren't doing so in any official capacity - easy for rumors to start flying - but the point is that everyone out there knew he was missing. Kudos to his friends and family for keeping the awareness up, people have gone missing with only a fraction as much attention.
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WBraun
climber
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Aug 19, 2013 - 11:51pm PT
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Very well written mattyj along with with the photos.
Thanks ......
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
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Aug 20, 2013 - 12:20am PT
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thank you so much, mattyj, for such thorough work in challenging terrain
you did indeed indicate the right orange rock that we spotted
i wouldn't have guessed that you would have such a good view of the glacier from the summit
are you able to judge the size of that rock for a sense of scale?
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mattyj
Mountain climber
Truckee
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Aug 20, 2013 - 12:26am PT
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Sorry, no idea. Without some kind of reference object it's really hard to judge scale through the binoculars. Sometimes when looking at nearby terrain I'd see something that looked interesting until I panned a little and realized it was only the size of a small bush.
My wild guess would be 6' diameter or so, but I'm probably way off.
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10b4me
Ice climber
Wishes-He-Was-In-Arizona
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Aug 20, 2013 - 12:31am PT
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thanks MattyJ. excellent report.
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TeddyKGBee
Trad climber
Chester Springs
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 20, 2013 - 09:30am PT
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Tiffany,
I saw this on High Sierra Topix. Is it accurate?
"Climbs he did in prior days:
Unicorn peak
mammoth crest
Clyde minaret (verified with reg signature)
Dana couloir
north peak
palasades v notch-
reigeluth minaret"
Hi everyone-
[Edit] I just got confirmation from Jill that he either climbed these peaks with a friend or sent a text that he climbed them. This was all before July 13th. Tom
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crankster
Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
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Aug 20, 2013 - 10:23am PT
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The one bit of speculation I'll engage in is that most people I know who would do Ritter and/or Banner in a day - and granted, that's not many - would never dream of carrying mountaineering boots in their backpack. Gore trex trail runners or light hikers, mini gaiters and some aluminum strap-ons. Obviously I'm hesitant to project that onto Matt's mindset, but every time I looked up at the glacier below Minarets, I found myself thinking "now that looks like the sort of serious terrain I'd want real boots for".
Totally agree. By the list of climbs he'd done, I'd assume he had a good feel for what gear would be necessary for a particular climb in the Sierra. That logic leads towards an objective with steep snow/ice, not the medium angle type on Ritter/Banner. Unless that's the only boot/crampon combo he had.
I'll admit I'm grasping at straws at this point. Most Sierra snow/ice couloirs are getting climbed regularly this time of year - hopefully, someone will spot him.
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10b4me
Ice climber
Wishes-He-Was-In-Arizona
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Aug 20, 2013 - 10:33am PT
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He seemed to be drawn to the Minarets. Maybe he climbed one of the less popular ones. Leonard Minaret has a 5.3 route on it.
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10b4me
Ice climber
Wishes-He-Was-In-Arizona
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Aug 20, 2013 - 10:47am PT
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You know, when I was younger, I didn't mind the Sierra talus, but as I have gotten older, I have really come to dislike it.
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Delhi Dog
climber
Good Question...
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Aug 20, 2013 - 11:33am PT
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Great job mattyj on the work and write up.
I feel better about that particular drainage now as well.
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this just in
climber
north fork
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Aug 20, 2013 - 12:11pm PT
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http://www.supertopo.com/tr/Mt-Ritter/t12084n.html
At the time of my trip I had no idea Matt was missing. This TR is not a search trip, but if any of the info is helpful, feel free to use it. That talus is some of the craziest I've encountered in the Sierra, several blocks were dislodged on our class 2 scramble. The biggest was a meter by meter big. I agree the more tired you are the more dangerous it is.
To Matt's family, no words can comfort you, but I send my best thoughts your way.
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Seamstress
Trad climber
Yacolt, WA
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Aug 20, 2013 - 12:57pm PT
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Hell - an endless talus slope. Extraordinarily difficult to search.
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tdg119
Social climber
Northampton, PA
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Aug 20, 2013 - 02:09pm PT
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In the picture with the dog from "ritter from kieser peal' what is that the dog looking at? Crazy long shot but looks like a person in tan pants, with a blue shirt, raising both hands who is having trouble standing upright. -Ron
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tdg119
Social climber
Northampton, PA
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Aug 20, 2013 - 02:22pm PT
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on the master photo the object is in the shadows, so maybe they could not see. also maybe any calls for help were bounced off the mountains and the dog heard it. i havent been out there so i cant judge distance at all...
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this just in
climber
north fork
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Aug 20, 2013 - 02:28pm PT
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Ron that photo was taken last year. The first few were from different ranges looking at Ritter from previous years.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Aug 20, 2013 - 02:31pm PT
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I see that pic posted is 1024 x 740. The original must be larger and a lot more detail could be pulled out of it. PM me with the original.
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tdg119
Social climber
Northampton, PA
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Aug 20, 2013 - 02:49pm PT
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thanks for the follow up. nice pics by the way. I never understood why matt or anyone for that matter would enjoy hiking but after all of this, now I understand. thanks everyone, you guys are truly amazing.
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this just in
climber
north fork
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Aug 20, 2013 - 03:40pm PT
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When I get home from work, I'll post any talus and Glacier pics to this thread that aren't in my TR.
Regards,
Justin Ross
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Aug 20, 2013 - 04:19pm PT
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dean, i hate to say this, but that struck me as the likeliest of destinations, given the day pack/heavy boots scenario and his previous minaret experience. it was probably fairly dicey a month ago. gonna be worse now.
it was pretty sobering to see all that rockfall debris in mattyj's ritter/banner pix.
be careful.
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ß Î Ø T Ç H
Boulder climber
extraordinaire
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Aug 20, 2013 - 04:30pm PT
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... he gets in the zone when he's out there. He doesn't stop to look around, he is focused. His every step is precise, calculated, and intuitive. He would not appear to wonder aimlessly, or look around at the views. Unless of course he wants to stop and take in all in (usually for about 10 minutes while he eats, then it's back up and moving again). -Ron Minto
This sounds fine for relatively safe terrain, but in a technical setting, such as ice, it could get you in trouble if you are focused on going up and up, but not looking also at the consequences of a fall, or options for reversing moves etc.
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michaeld
Sport climber
Sacramento
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Aug 20, 2013 - 04:52pm PT
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Ron-
Any follow up from the possible sighting up in Reno?
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PAUL SOUZA
Trad climber
Central Valley, CA
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Aug 20, 2013 - 04:55pm PT
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Dean, I'd love to join you, but you know my situation currently. When do you plan on heading in?
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dirt claud
Social climber
san diego,ca
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Aug 20, 2013 - 05:22pm PT
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"I went through Matt's house"
Man that must be tough gong through your brothers stuff, sorry for your loss once again, hope you and family are doing ok.
I would be down to go and help Dean, but besides time issues someone like me would be more of a crutch than anything. I have no experience in that terrain and would only hold you back or worse. Hope one of the many competent climbers on here will have time and can help you. Would be nice to find him and at least have some closure for family and friends.
Never really though about what family/friends must feel like when they have no explanation for their loss. This thread is an eye opener and hope it has taught us all a little about things we should think about before soloing.
All the best of luck to you, stay safe out there.
Edit: sorry Tdg119, should have known you were his sister. Corrected, thanks Dean.
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this just in
climber
north fork
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Aug 20, 2013 - 08:34pm PT
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Here's some more pics from my trip in which many aren't on the TR. The talus fields make it so hard to see any object, but feel free to use any of these pictures. All pics were taken on 8/7/13.
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Kalimon
Social climber
Ridgway, CO
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Aug 20, 2013 - 09:30pm PT
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Damb . . . looks like San Juan choss.
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Todd Quinn
Trad climber
Oceanside, CA
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Aug 21, 2013 - 03:29am PT
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Cragman, thank you for the weather update. I Would like to offer any assistance I can. I have experience with different search teams in California. Finding Matt going to take some time if you ever need a partner please let me know. I appreciate what you are doing for the Greene Family and I hope to give some time to the search. Aloha, Todd
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tdg119
Social climber
Northampton, PA
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Aug 21, 2013 - 02:26pm PT
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bump
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Mtnmun
Trad climber
Top of the Mountain Mun
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Aug 21, 2013 - 03:11pm PT
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Are any search dogs going in?
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jstan
climber
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Aug 21, 2013 - 11:13pm PT
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Back out there again soon.....
Alpinism at its most meritorious. Whether on the Eiger, or the Sierra.
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alli0103
Social climber
Lehighton
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Aug 21, 2013 - 11:49pm PT
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You guys might be the most amazing people I've ever witnessed that have come together to help out someone you don't even know. As Matt's long time friend (we met when we were 12 or 13), it has been absolutely unbelievable to watch you all do whatever you possibly can to help.
The photos I'm seeing are absolutely breathtaking. What a beautiful, humbling, amazing area you are in. And I now "get" WHY Matt was drawn to it.
A heartfelt thank you to all of you. Seriously.
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alli0103
Social climber
Lehighton
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Aug 22, 2013 - 12:06am PT
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Also, Cragman, a heartfelt THANK YOU to you. I just tried to send you a PM, but you have them disabled, so I'll just put it all out here for everyone to see. I don't know what special "mold" you come from... or what in your life made you become so intent on helping other people, but it has been amazing to "watch". I check in here several times a day, waiting to see what you've posted... Your TR was absolutely amazing and I, not being a hiker/climber at all, FINALLY got a feel for what anyone searching for someone out there is dealing with (you're an unbelievable writer and photographer by the way)... I am absolutely humbled by the fact that you plan on going out AGAIN to look for him. I can't even wrap my brain around what is driving you, but I won't question it, because I am so grateful for it, that to question it would be insane.
Please know that Matt's friends and family are extremely grateful for all that you (and many others) are doing. It's very hard to explain to someone else (who doesn't know Matt or someone else that has gone missing) what it would mean to gain ANY sort of closure. *I* didn't realize it until this all happened.
So thank you. Sincerely.
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Delhi Dog
climber
Good Question...
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Aug 22, 2013 - 07:23am PT
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For family and friends know that this area is incredibly beautiful and very very special to all of us.
I can think of no better place on this planet to spend my last days and though we all hope and pray Matt will miraculously appear somewhere somehow, the fact is the Sierras are heaven on earth.
He couldn't have picked a finer spot to wander and explore himself and the world around him.
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10b4me
Ice climber
Wishes-He-Was-In-Arizona
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Aug 22, 2013 - 10:43am PT
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Once again, good luck Dean. Be safe. When are you going up?
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Aug 22, 2013 - 10:54am PT
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Dean, I'm behind on a big project right now. Won't be able to get away this weekend.
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crusher
climber
Santa Monica, CA
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Aug 22, 2013 - 01:08pm PT
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This might be a screwy question (and forgive me because I haven't personally been back there other than the Ediza area) but could Matt have possibly gone out of the Devil's Postpile trailhead (if perhaps he wanted to go to a peak or glacier south of Ritter/Banner)? I'm not sure if any of the searches (besides Cragman and Doug's) were in this more southerly area...we are assuming, with the limited info we have, that he was going for Ritter/Banner. Besides Agnew Meadows trailhead there is Devil's Postpile...is there another trailhead in near Red's Meadows resort?
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crusher
climber
Santa Monica, CA
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Aug 22, 2013 - 02:46pm PT
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Thanks for the map. I'm sure most of those trails are still highly traveled right now - but maybe only to lakes below the Minarets.
This is so frustrating. Thanks, Cragman, for going back out there and be safe yourself. I don't know Matt but his disappearance has really bothered me as it has many of you.
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Delhi Dog
climber
Good Question...
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Aug 22, 2013 - 09:29pm PT
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Another long shot I know, but have all the bear boxes been checked at these trailheads?
I have often left food, brew, etc in them as I'm sure others do before heading in even for a day.
I most often will leave a note with the contents letting anyone know roughly when I'll be back so that I they won't think it has been there forever and may discourage them from eating and drinking it...dam those PCTers :-)
Knowing he probably didn't drive himself to a trailhead but caught a ride ( if indeed he did e head into the backcountry) he probably didn't have extras to put into a box, but I'd think in was SOP for any SAR to check at the trailhead boxes where it is speculated he might have entered.
Just a thought I woke up with this morning that I couldn't get out of my head.
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10b4me
Ice climber
Wishes-He-Was-In-Arizona
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Aug 22, 2013 - 09:40pm PT
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Delhi Dog, good question.
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Finn2302
Trad climber
Easton, pa
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Aug 22, 2013 - 11:34pm PT
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I am one of Matts many, many friends from PA, a climber and active reader of Supertopo. I've spent a fair amount of time in Yosemite, but never in the area Matt was suspected to be in.
Wanted to say thanks to all the wonderful people who care so much about Matt and helping out another person in need - you are inspiring!!
It's just so tough when we have so darn little information to go on, but maybe there is something about the power of social media and some of the group think that is going on here.
Not sure if this information has any value, but thought I'd pass it along to the group.
Matt and I went to the Gunks the weekend before he departed this summer for his Westward bound trip. He, I and another friend climbed several climbs that day including Doubleissima - which he followed easily. During the drive, one of the areas we spoke about was the Cathedral peak area in Tuolumne. Matt has been in that area in past years. I told him that we followed the Budd Creek north on our way out and how nice it was.. When I first heard he was missing, and that he was camping in the Mammoth Lakes area - I wondered back about our conversation and if he could have been back checking out Matthes Crest.. Once I learned that he had his big boots and crampons - I just thought ok that area seems unlikely. I did see that he climbed Unicorn peak - I wonder if from that vantage point, if there are interesting snow/gully climbs that maybe he spied and decided to do and would have needed his big boots and crampons for.
I know how big that country is and really appriciate everything you all are doing!
Please contact me with any questions - thanks again!
 Greg
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crankster
Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
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Aug 22, 2013 - 11:54pm PT
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Not really any couloirs visible from Unicorn, Greg. The Dana Couloir is close to that area - it appears he had already climbed it.
It sounds like he was climbing classic routes from the guidebook.
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Delhi Dog
climber
Good Question...
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Aug 23, 2013 - 12:00am PT
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Also, I was back in the Mathes Crest area July 20th. Did not see any snow worth lugging boots and an ax into. Of course that's just me though I doubt he would either.
Doesn't hurt to mention it though Greg, thanks.
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ß Î Ø T Ç H
Boulder climber
extraordinaire
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Aug 23, 2013 - 12:24am PT
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I think I asked this early on - did the Red's Meadow (or YARTS) shuttle drivers ever get interviewed about the specific date(s) when he went missing? I know they may have had full buses/ distractions etc, but that seems very basic to the investigation.
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Fluoride
Trad climber
West Los Angeles, CA
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Aug 23, 2013 - 02:44am PT
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QITNL don't worry about the length of the post. You bring up a lot of worthy questions. Very well thought out. Thanks for posting this. A lot of us are questioning a lot of things. His family and friends are looking for closure and his climbing family is stepping up. Very inspiring.
Is there surveillance video from where his last purchase was? Was he alone? Was he with anyone? What was his mood? What was he wearing?
The village has a ton of security cameras cause there's so many businesses in the area. Someone had to have a last pic of him before he went missing after being there. There are so many businesses there. Stores, bars/restaurants and bars tapes like this and looked through them and either he wasn't there or wasn't visible...are authorities going through those?
Been following this thread. Just a big mystery in so many senses.
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tdg119
Social climber
Northampton, PA
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Aug 23, 2013 - 07:08am PT
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Pretty sure Head gasket blew around July 4th; had to wait for holiday to pass to get car into shop. Confirming w my parents. Can you say longest repair ever?
It was so much time, I think he did anything and everything to pass the time. His friends did say all his clohes were clean, folded, organized like he'd just done laundry. No doubt preparing to leave town.
Ok, going to go off on a tangent here. Not sure if none believes in psychics. I don't usually bother with them but when there are no other clues, well, several of us did touch base with them. About the only interesting one was the following:
-She feels to look within a mile radius of where his car is. (That would have been the garage where it was being fixed.) She sees a walkway/road with a rail of some sort, from there if you look over it, there is water. She feels he fell, didn't get severely injured from the fall but needed help and didn't have reception. Feels he was bit by a snake in his calf and he may be in a ravine. She said she had seen this over and over. If she sees anything additional she will call me.-
The other thing that has been bugging Matt's friends is that all the evidence seems to indicate that Matt spent the day of the 16th in town. We saw that he “liked” and commented on an article on Summitpost on a topic that indicated he was just killing time. His laundry was clean and folded. He went to Rite Aid. His campsite was paid for that night. So we assume that he went off for a day hike on the morning of the 17th. His phone records show that he spoke to the garage on the 16th and was told the car would be done on the 18th. The confusing thing is that Detective Hornbeck and Bill Green said that his calls at 8:12 and 3:09 on the 16th were from town (according to the ping off the tower) and the 4:30-4:35 calls to/from the garage were pinging from on top of mammoth or north of there. Which makes no sense. Why would he be in town all day and then go up to mountain.
So, Andrea (one of Matt's friends that went back out), has been keeping in touch w Donna (driver out there who was super helpful) and they've been relaying back and forth.
One of the possibilities discussed was Earthquake Vault: in a MSG from Donna: "Just got back from a hike up at the Earthquake Fault with a friend. Spent a hour and a half there. Mile from town, ravine, railing, no water, no snakes. You can get cell phone reception there just a bit North, East of the mountain. Hiked along the rim. Did not go into the bottom. Parts of it are very steep and cant get into it, at least someone my age cant but someone younger could go down in there and check it out. Might be a bit dangerous. Funny thing is that there is a trail my friend said that goes from Shady Rest Campground directly to the Earthquake Fault. Don't believe much in psychics, but I'm thinking I may change my mind here. "
One of Donna's friends also said, "If he did stay in town and the first psychic is accurate, then he could have walked up the bike path on Lake Mary Rd. Once you get up toward Tamarack, there is a rushing creek that is a big drop down into a ravine and I think a railing. Maybe the cell phone ping from the mountain would occur if he were up there?"
So everyone, take that for what you will. Wanted to share; might be easy quick places to search and prove psychic right or wrong.
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tdg119
Social climber
Northampton, PA
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Aug 23, 2013 - 09:33am PT
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The strangest thing for me is when I look at Matts phone records. On the morning of the 17th he turned is phone on at 2.53am PT. No other time during the month/entire trip was his phone on this early.
It was clock work, he always turned it off by 9 or 10pm and the earliest he ever turned on was 6am. I am guessing to save the battery....
Why on the day that he goes missing is the phone turned on so early? To call for help, maybe, foul play - who knows?
We know for a fact the night before (on the 16th) everything was fine, he was texting back and forth to friends until 9.30pm, joking, etc... No mention of a big hike the next day.
Even when he did go on big hikes, when he did get up early, he never turned his phone on that early. Only on the 17th, the day he disappeared his phone goes on the middle of the night???
To me this indicates something happened at 2.53am, which means he did not get far from camp.
-Ron
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tdg119
Social climber
Northampton, PA
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Aug 23, 2013 - 09:50am PT
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good point cragman, but why only this day....it doesnt fit his pattern. BTW, this is Ron (Tiffany's Husband). I user her logon and try to always sign "-Ron" when its me. :)
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Leggs
Sport climber
Tucson, AZ
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Aug 23, 2013 - 09:52am PT
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This thread is incredible, in every way.
I find myself in awe, once again, how our community comes together in times of need, rallies, and supports one another.
I will admit my heart skips a beat when I see it bumped, then relief at the fact so many of you are offering up your expertise and time to search for Matthew.
~Blessings to all of you... and positive vibes for all involved, esp family and friends missing their loved one.
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tdg119
Social climber
Northampton, PA
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Aug 23, 2013 - 10:07am PT
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He had a really old flip phone. No internet access, etc..The thing was a dinosaur.
-Ron
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10b4me
Ice climber
Wishes-He-Was-In-Arizona
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Aug 23, 2013 - 10:22am PT
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He was paying for his spot day to day. He must have paid for the night of July 16. Did he pay for the 17th? It's not a busy camp, but how long would they leave his tent standing until the campground host noticed? Was he paying for his site on his own or sharing it with someone?
excellent questions
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tdg119
Social climber
Northampton, PA
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Aug 23, 2013 - 10:35am PT
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Agree with Riley.~Ron
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patrick compton
Trad climber
van
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Aug 23, 2013 - 10:47am PT
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So if there is to be a search locally, can dogs be used?
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Aug 23, 2013 - 10:49am PT
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Other things to consider.
Where would the missing gear be if it was not on him? Sold? Perhaps but my guess is he had it with him.
How much traffic does ritter/banner see? I'm guessing fairly regular traffic.
Traffic seems a key point. I would suggest that he is not in a highly traveled position. I would suggest he is within 4 to 7 miles of a trailhead with a shuttle. I would suggest that his objective was a summit via a route that had or was expected to have snow or ice.
Of course it's quite possible that he did something else completely. But I still think he went somewhere very lightly or rarely traveled.
I think the area Cragman is planning to search fits the bill perfectly. Good luck.
Lots of good thinking going in the above posts.
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10b4me
Ice climber
Wishes-He-Was-In-Arizona
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Aug 23, 2013 - 10:56am PT
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Any bouldering near Shady Rest
The Geothermal boulders just east of 395. An easy walk down 203. A couple of miles from the cg.
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east side underground
climber
Hilton crk,ca
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Aug 23, 2013 - 10:58am PT
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anyone check the blue couliar under blue crag? close to town , still has snow, cell reception would bounce off the mountian. closet spot to town to play with ice gear. ????
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Aug 23, 2013 - 11:00am PT
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I was thinking about the warm weather and what it does after a few days .. to phrase delicately. How that would likely (but not absolutely) be noticed in heavy traffic areas.
But there really are not any good ways to rule out much at all in this case. Frustrating for sure.
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10b4me
Ice climber
Wishes-He-Was-In-Arizona
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Aug 23, 2013 - 11:00am PT
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QITNL brought up some excellent questions
The guy who picked up Matt's car, did he check Matt's site at Shady Rest?
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splitter
Trad climber
SoCal Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
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Aug 23, 2013 - 11:12am PT
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Also...the whole missing gear thing...why would have he taken that particular gear if not going to a spot he could use it. just thinkin'...perhaps he decided to take his expensive boots etc, with him rather than leave them in camp and risk having them stolen...or maybe he wanted to weigh down his pack to get in better shape on a day hike...or maybe someone made him an $$ offer on it he couldn't refuse...or maybe he wanted to take a pic of the stuff in the foreground and with Minarets a long way off in the background...or perhaps ...!
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crankster
Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
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Aug 23, 2013 - 11:13am PT
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Like a lot of you, Matt's mysterious disappearance has been foremost in my thoughts since I learned about it. Since I live a few hours away, I'm familiar with the area around Mammoth and have climbed and hiked in the area a lot over the last 30+ years. I've tried to learn as much about Matt as I can to try to figure out what he was most likely to do on July 17th. Like Cragman, I keep coming back to the Ritter Range as the most likely scenario (not the only scenario); primarily for 2 reasons: 1) the gear that was missing from his car and presumably with him, 2) Ritter is the highest peak around, a major climbing goal and one that he could have done in a long day. There's been no indication he had already climbed it. There are snowfields/glaciers in the Ritter Range.
Others, QITNL, etc. have brought up some good points. I'll throw my hat in on those subjects:
La Sportiva Nepal Extreme's. In the Sierra, useful only for steep snow/ice climbs. Nobody would carry them in a pack unless the objective involved the same. Overkill in the Sierra, but if it was his only heavy boot I could see him taking them. Could he have sold them (and the big pack) to raise $$ for car repair? It's always bugged me that he didn't take a mid-sized pack. Who would he have sold them to? Is there a used gear store in Mammoth?
2:53 am cell phone goes on. If he was doing a long day trip like Ritter, 3 am would be a good time to get up. Maybe he woke up and checked for messages. Still don't know how he got to the trailhead before the shuttle...
Foul play. Always a possibility, but I haven't heard anything to suggest signs of a struggle, etc.
With apologies to the family, I think everyone has also considered a couple of other possibilities: this is all a hoax or he staged his disappearance. Please don't take offense; we all hear a news story and give it the smell test, don't we? Is there anything that just doesn't sound right, etc.? That said, there's nothing at all to suggest a hoax. The family's agony is so real we can all feel it, even though they are on the other side of the country. We look at his picture and thing, wow, that could be me or my brother or son. It's heartbreaking. I've also heard nothing about Matt's life to indicate he would have chosen to disappear. He sounds grounded and full of life - with things to live for. I do wonder if he was in a relationship, however.
If I had to come up with something that was bugging me, it would be this: the other climbers he spent time with in Mammoth - why haven't we heard from them directly? We are getting messages relayed back though Tiffany & Ron, yes, but I'd like to hear a detailed first-hand report of the weeks leading up to July 17th. The list of climbs he apparently had done - especially the V-Notch couloir & North Peak - it would be useful to hear from his partners. Things like "we hiked into the base of the Palisade's, Matt was carrying his large MHW pack and carrying his Nepal Extreme's, complaining about bringing these huge boots to the Sierra"...this kind of information or anything like it that would give us more insight.
To QITNL point about Sierra choss - I agree. I've done Clyde by the SE Face and regular route, also, Ritter & Banner and I didn't leave feeling like "wow, I have to get back and do those again!"
Matt was obviously ready to get out of town but with one last day he might have looked to Ritter and decided he needed to knock it off. Cragman is headed out again to risk his life searching that area and I think it's still the strongest possibility.
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tdg119
Social climber
Northampton, PA
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Aug 23, 2013 - 11:38am PT
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how do we do a differential?
What do we know?
-July 16th @10pm everything is AOK. Car will be ready and Matt is planning on leaving town on July 18th
-Day = July 17th
-Starting point is Shady Rest.
-Phone on at 2.53am
-There is very strong evidence he was going to do some dangerous stuff.
Ice, climbing, glacier. Did have crampons, mountain boots and ice axe
-No sleeping bag, bivy, tent, ropes or helmet.
-He would not have sold his gear (he borrowed the crampons from a friend, they were not his to sell) Matt has money in his bank account.
-Mats credit cards, or debit cards were not used after July 16th.
-Everything was neatly folded at the Camp Site for return on the 17th. He paid for that Night in advance.
Differential:
-Option 1 = He took a bus or hitched a ride. If so, area is too large to search. Therefore, we cannot focus on Option 1, just would not make sense for us (by us I mean the team in the immediate area) agreed?
-Option 2 = Left early (based on phone time) and walked. It is more likely he did not hitch a ride, someone would have come forward, there are not many cars running this early, busses not running yet, etc.
-Heading = to snow, ice area
-Did not expect falling rock (no helmet)- he is just too careful.
-Max walking radius from Shady Rest based on Matts ability = 10 miles (20 miles round trip)
-Planned to be back before dark, 1 day hike, in and out
-He would have stuck to the trails at the start and end (his goal is to ice, snow climb, not hike)
Open Items:
-What areas are snowy & icy within 10 miles walking distance from Shady Rest on July 17th?
-Can we draw a radius on a map, assume trailheads as starts, etc?
~Ron
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Aug 23, 2013 - 11:42am PT
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And if I were getting my car out of the shop in the next few days I think I would be more inclined to stay closer to town as the completion date neared I'd say it's just as likely he went for a day long outing.
He'd spent a long time in Mammoth and may have planned to get out of town as soon as his car was fixed. I'd go on a long walkabout.
4:30-4:35 calls to/from the garage were pinging from on top of mammoth or north of there. Which makes no sense. Why would he be in town all day and then go up to mountain. Makes sense to me. Got bored, finished all the chores (clean laundry folded), nice afternoon. You can't see the spectacular sunset over the Minarets from down in Mammoth. Hike up to Minarets Summit and north along the ridge for the stunning late afternoon views.
Do we know which cell tower his 2:53 AM ping was from?
Why just a ping? What if he was making an EARLY start, meant to call and tell someone about it? Decided not to wake up his friends at 06:00 EDT? Didn't think he'd gotten a good connection? Battery went dead?
Did anyone find out if he'd ridden the shuttle bus on the 17th?
I, for one, have been assuming Matt took his big pack, boots and crampons with him.
That's actually a big assumption.
Another possibility is Matt was the victim of foul play at 02:53.
It's possible a thief came for these items and not the rest of his gear and Matt got entangled with said thief.
It's possible Matt didn't go on a hike with the missing equipment.
I only raise this as a different rational explanation for his missing gear.
My "gut" feeling says he went on a long hike with intent to climb steep snow/ice and met with a mishap. If so there's about equal probability that he's on a commonly traveled area or not.
On Page 1 TMJesse had some good observations about surprise hazards in the Minaret/Ritter region.
Perhaps TeddyKGeeBee can write up a complete list of what we KNOW and what is supposition?
EDIT: HAH tdg has done just that.
One other rather sordid thought. Might Matt have gone partying the night of Jan 16, had too much to drink/smoke, and fallen in with bad company? Is that in his character?
The big assumption most of us have made is that Matt's a straight up guy and would never have gotten into that sort of trouble.
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10b4me
Ice climber
Wishes-He-Was-In-Arizona
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Aug 23, 2013 - 11:53am PT
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This whole thing intrigues me.
It's a bit of walk from Shady Rest cg to Ritter
Did the camp host talk to Matt?
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tdg119
Social climber
Northampton, PA
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Aug 23, 2013 - 12:04pm PT
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Camp host did not talk to matt on or near that day. - The only strange thing here is the host did not report Matt missing when he never returned, even though he paid for that night in advance. He just threw his tent into storage when Matt never came back and went on like nothing happened, never called the police. Nothing, the police actually had to call him a week or so later.
Matt does not smoke, drink a lot, or party. He is a teacher subject to random drug tests but more importantly its def. not his style. The guy ran the Boston marathon (drug test again, top shape, etc.)
He was in his tent at shady rest by 8pm PT the night before (July 16th) texting to friends and signed off saying he was going to bed around 9.30pm PT.
~ Ron
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crankster
Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
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Aug 23, 2013 - 12:14pm PT
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Wow, I was unaware the camp host put his stuff in storage. Not a bright person. A missing person's report earlier would have been helpful.
If he was in his tent at 8 pm texting friends that he was specifically going to sleep at 9:30 pm I'd think he would have mentioned something if he was getting up at 3 am to go on a big day-climb the next day. Leads me to believe he might not have made plans for the 17th until he woke up.
What about his climbing friend's trip report?
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Aug 23, 2013 - 12:19pm PT
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The only strange thing here is the host did not report Matt missing when he never returned, even though he paid for that night in advance. He just threw his tent into storage when Matt never came back and went on like nothing happened, never called the police. Nothing, the police actually had to call him a week or so later.
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tdg119
Social climber
Northampton, PA
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Aug 23, 2013 - 12:20pm PT
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Exactly Crank, that has not made sense to us either.
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east side underground
climber
Hilton crk,ca
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Aug 23, 2013 - 12:22pm PT
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tdg119, in answer to your question, closest is Blue couliar probally under 10 mi from shady and a relatively easy approach.
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cyberdee
Trad climber
Lynwood, CA
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Aug 23, 2013 - 12:27pm PT
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Just a thought...Could he have taken the Gondola up to the top to sight see and play on some snow and ice? This type of outing would not "require" all the usual gear one would take on a solo all day hike. If he did go up the mountain, would he think it would be not much of a challenge to hike back to the camp ground from there? The cell phone ping at 2:53, from the top tower,??????
Maybe somebody could look at the video records from the gondola security cameras. If he did go up there that would give you a little more targeted search area.
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SplitPants
Social climber
LA
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Aug 23, 2013 - 12:37pm PT
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I confess that I have been "lurking" for the past couple of weeks reading the posts on this forum and on the facebook page. This story makes me very very sad. Matt's family, friends and students love and miss him a lot!
I also want to say that I am impressed with the local community and everyone that is trying to help (especially Cragman, just WOW!). Me and my husband call Mammoth and June our second home. No place like it on earth and full of such wonderful people:)
I joined the forum this morning and decided to post because I want to communicate a couple of things and there is something bugging me really bad. First, we just got back from spending a few days in Mammoth and June. We saw Matt's Missing flyers at every single place in town and a few places in Bishop. Everyone knows!
Without going into too much detail (it pains me to talk much about it) a few years ago I had a roomate that went missing. Long story short it is VERY difficult when an adult goes missing and there are little clues. It makes the job much more difficult for law enforcement. In the case I was involved in we (family and friends) ended up having to do a lot of the "footwork/research." The outcome of what happened was horrific and the case is not over. It resulted in an arrest and a pending death penalty trial:(
So you ask how does this relate to Matt's missing case? One of the things that I experienced in my situation was STRONG instincts (no I am not a psychic). I have read through the posts more than once and maybe I have missed some facts, but something is really bugging me. Here is a list of my comments & questions (please accept my apologies if I have missed the answers within previous posts):
1. The last phone registration at 2:53 am on 7/16.
2. In reading the posts this seems to be out of character for Matt?
3. I know from experience that usually when law enforcement cell records are obtained under warrants they can have fairly detailed information. From my personal experience I learned that the records can tell a) what tower was pinged b) triangulation c) length of time (in our case they were able to tell us that the phone registered for 17 seconds and was then shut off) d) phone and text messages. The only information I am seeing posted is the date/time and tower. Is that all of the information that is available? When was Matts phone turned on? When was the phone turned off? Can the police help more accurately pinpoint that last location point of phone registration (this would be when the phone was turned on at 2:53 am)?
4. Does anyone know what Matt purchased from Rite Aid?
5. Did anyone look at the security cameras at Rite Aid to see what clothes Matt was wearing?
6. What about computer usage at the library? There are forensic tools that can examine a computer even if the browser search history has been deleted.
7. Has anyone examied the last email and/or forum posts to obtain the IP address(s)?
8. Has anyone checked with the coffee shop called Looney Bean that is next to Rite Aid? I belive they have a computer there that is used by customers (fyi there is a laundry place next door to the coffee shop as well).
And lastly did the police department obtain a complete listing of other camping customers that were staying at the Shady Rest Campground at the same time as Matt? Were any of these customers interviewed? Were any backgrounds of the campers checked?
Has there been any search in places close to town? Perhaps a local search effort planned to start from Shady Rest? If not this might be a good idea to do in addition to Cragmans effort.
In the case I was involved in it all came down to the last phone registration and e-mail.
My heart and prayers go out to Matt's family, friends and the locals putting their personal safety on the line in their search for Matt.
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jeg
Social climber
center valley,Pa
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Aug 23, 2013 - 12:37pm PT
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Hi all,
My name is Jill. My husband John and I were with Matt in Mammoth up until July 7.I know we spoke with Cragman on the phone but here are some answers to some of your other questions.
QITNL...The one ice axe missing is from a set of technical tools. If they were sold or stolen I think this would be done as a set. Matt climbed a total of 3000ft of ice this summer. This is why he had his Nepal Extremes. They were the only boots he had with him for his step in crampons.
Splitter....He just bought those boots this Spring, don't think he would sell them. He doesn't hike/climb with "extra stuff". He would drop it off at his car at the shop up the street if he didn't want to leave it at the camp site.
Crankster...We have been up dating Tiffany with our information and then she would post any useful information. We gave her the list of climbs he climbed in prior days and she posted them for us.
We have been following these threads daily and added and necessary information via Tiffany as needed. His car was in and out of the shop since we met him there on June 28th. He knew driving to mammoth something was wrong with his car and dropped it off at the shop the first day. They tried changing the thermostat twice but when Matt would test drive it, he knew it wasn't fixed. He finally took it in for the 3rd time on July 5 and was told it was the head gasget. He was told they couldn't start working on it until July 9. He would text my husband every few days up until July 13 and would give him an update on his car and what climbs he did. This is how we were able to composite a list of climbs he climbed with my husband and climbs he soloed.
I can't Thank you all enough for trying to find our friend. There are some truly great people out there and Matt is one of those "great people"
Be safe Cragman and Thank You so much.
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mattyj
Mountain climber
Truckee
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Aug 23, 2013 - 12:44pm PT
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Cragman, thanks for going back out. I'm probably reading too much into it, but given the boots Matt had with him I kept feeling like that glacier was an obvious spot. Wanted to go search it on our day out but there just wasn't enough time. I'm not familiar with the Minarets, but the part that gives me doubt is that I haven't been able to find any nontechnical routes that go through the center of the glacier.
his calls at 8:12 and 3:09 on the 16th were from town (according to the ping off the tower) and the 4:30-4:35 calls to/from the garage were pinging from on top of mammoth or north of there. Which makes no sense. Why would he be in town all day and then go up to mountain.
Keep in mind that cell phone pings are notoriously unreliable, and past location data gleaned from tower logs probably even more so. It would hardly be unprecedented for the cell company to place him near the summit when he was actually in civilization - say, at the base of the gondola.
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tdg119
Social climber
Northampton, PA
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Aug 23, 2013 - 12:46pm PT
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The MLPD told us they only requested cell tower pings for calls not text messages.
The last ping they said was a call at 4.30pm PT on July 16th received off the Mammoth Mt. Cell Tower. Direction was pointing North West. – Not really too relevant because we know he was back at shady rest at 8pm. We also know this was the call to the repair shop when they told him his car would be ready on the 18th.
The MLPD said they did not request text pings, we asked them to get these ASAP! No word yet, that was 2 weeks ago. Unfortunately, the MLPD has not been very responsive.
We really really really need the ping location of the 2.53am text on the morning of July 17th. – The PD is not providing this to us. We called Verizon; they will not give it to us.
I will post the phone logs.
~Ron
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crankster
Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
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Aug 23, 2013 - 12:57pm PT
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Jill, thanks, that answers a lot of questions. Makes sense to me that he headed out for the day with the gear list described. Cragman is searching the most likely spot - the Ritter/Minaret's area.
Another unfortunate accident shows how easily things can go wrong: http://www.sierrawave.net/26125/man-falls-to-death/
Be careful, Cragman - throw on a helmet!
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jeg
Social climber
center valley,Pa
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Aug 23, 2013 - 12:58pm PT
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The 2:53am on the 17th was a text received not a call. Detective stated, Verizon can not ping a text just calls or if your phone is currently on.
Here is the info on the phone call on the 16th. Everything else after that were texts.
8:12 am to 3:06 pm, July 16, 2013 - Lat 37.638167 Lon -118.961611, 1601 Meridian Blvd, Mammoth Lakes, Ca. Directly south of the library. Directly north a mile or two is where Greene was camping.
4:29 pm to 4:35 pm, July 16, 2103 – Lat 37.630528 Log -119-033078, 5920 Minaret Rd, Mammoth Lakes, Ca, top of Mammoth Mountain.
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jeg
Social climber
center valley,Pa
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Aug 23, 2013 - 01:09pm PT
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Mguzzy...My husband was in the storage area to collect all of matt's belongings, so he would of had a good look to make sure nothing was left behind.
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jeg
Social climber
center valley,Pa
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Aug 23, 2013 - 01:32pm PT
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We can not get any more info. from the detective via verizon about the texts. No ping info for texts and the text was from one of Matt's friends. He no longer has the text and can not remeber what it was about.
East side underground.... Anyone know about Blue Coular? I know it sounds corney but someone had a dream about Matt and "blue diamond"
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crankster
Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
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Aug 23, 2013 - 02:04pm PT
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Blue Couloir is a popular backcountry ski (see pic from web) on the Mammoth Crest. Doesn't seem like a place for an ice climber.
Cragman, any snow/ice in Blue Couloir?
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east side underground
climber
Hilton crk,ca
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Aug 23, 2013 - 02:06pm PT
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Blue couliar is where I would go if I wanted to test out ice gear/ boots. Very easy approach, not to far out there and one could round trip from shady without shuttle. decievingly steep and definately will find neve/ice, certianly alot closer than the Ritter range which would be a huge day from shady imo. Just an idea, who knows? Good luck
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tdg119
Social climber
Northampton, PA
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Aug 23, 2013 - 02:28pm PT
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@ Jeg - that is weird about the dream with the blue diamond. I had a dream 3 weeks ago where Matt was holding a blue diamond shaped crystal. I told Tiffany about at the time but just chalked it up to nonsense ~ Ron
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Aug 23, 2013 - 02:35pm PT
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Do you have the location of Blue Couloir? At least descriptively?
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SplitPants
Social climber
LA
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Aug 23, 2013 - 02:42pm PT
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Mguzzy you are correct.
1. Application for Search Warrant (approved by local judge or magistrate)
2. This document in general contains:
-Property/Evidence to be Seized (in this case it would read something like "Detailed records of both incoming and outgoing calls and text messages for phone number XXX-XXX-XXXX for time period XX/XX/XXXX to XX/XX/XXXX")
-Premises, Person, Vehicle, or other item(s) to be searched (in this case it would read something like "a complete database search or all records in the custody and/or control of Verizon for the above listed accounts")
-Probable Cause Affidavit this section contains a narrative of the event(s)/circumstance(s) that justifies the issuing of the warrant. This is generally a sworn statement of the investigating officer/applicant and is counter signed when authorized by the court/judge. Basically it contains the legal grounds for issuance of the warrant.
In general there is a statement to the party of which the warrant is issued that gives them a directive that they are to execute the search warrant within a specified period of time (typically 48 hours).
Does anyone know if formal search warrants were issued for phone, e-mail, banking, credit card(s), video footage from Rite Aid and/or campground records?
Also has anyone checked Bishop Gear Exchange to see if any of Matts gear is there (long shot, but they have a lot of used gear on consignment there).
Sending prayers to family and friends........
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east side underground
climber
Hilton crk,ca
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Aug 23, 2013 - 02:45pm PT
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Blue couliar is located on the south -east end of the mammoth creast . easily viewed from the lakes basin. out of cold water trail head take the trail to emeral lake up towards Hamil . Blue crag is the prominate feature you see on the crest looking SE. from Mammoth Mt. If Mattew was a solid ice climber blue couliar probably would not hold any interest to him, it's just the closest ice to town that I can think of, Bloody is bone dry, after a couple of poor winters only the most north facing are holding snow /ice. Sorry I don't have any photos on my computer. Cheers
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SplitPants
Social climber
LA
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Aug 23, 2013 - 03:11pm PT
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MGuzzy
Mammoth Lakes falls within Mono County. I would think the family knows if MLPD went through a formal search warrant process. If MLPD did I would think under FOIA they could obtain copies, though it varies for active investigations.
One of the problems we encountered in the past is that missing adult cases without firm probable cause can be a problem in obtaining search warrants. I am no lawyer, just speaking from what we went through (I ended up finding the probable cause that enabled issuing the search warrants). In Matts case I would think that the abandoned car and campsite along with length of time would be sufficient, though recommend asking the detective. I can say that unfortunately due to drastic town budget cuts the MLPD was hit hard (they are down to 9 paid officers). There has been a lot of "activity" in the town lately and honestly I think the department is stretched very thin (heard from a friend that most officers end up having to work most all of their days off).
I am curious about forensics on the computer at the library, IP address(s) from e-mails, video from Rite Aid and REALLY curious as to the guest registrations at the campground.
I have had nothing but good dealings with the staff at the Gear Exchange (fyi it is the same company as Mammoth Mountaineering in town). If anyone has pictures or solid descriptions of missing/unaccounted for gear I recommend contacting them directly. I would be happy to (have time on my hands), but I am lacking information. I recommend someone call them just to mark it off a list of places/things checked (process of elimination). They are very helpful, especially at the Bishop Gear Exchange. [Edit] Also if any of Matts gear is found there the store keeps contact information such as phone number and name for each person that has consigned gear
If taking all of the information from these posts and putting it together in a detailed timeline document would help anyone let me know and I would be happy to do this (it is the least I can do to help).
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LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
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Aug 23, 2013 - 03:12pm PT
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Regarding the missing gear, people here have argued convincingly that it points to the Ritter Range or some other place with snow/ice as a destination and that unfortunately Matt could easily have ran into trouble there. It’s wonderful that Cragman, Martyj, and their colleagues have been searching these very dangerous places.
But even if one of those places was his intended destination, we don’t whether he might not have met with trouble before he got to the trailhead, or even before leaving town. We don’t know his mode of transportation (walking? hitching? shuttle?) and whether something might have happened en route.
It would be weird if psychics and dreams play a role in finding Matt, but stranger things have happened. I do hope that places near town that are similar to those the psychic described can be searched, even if it seems as if Matt could not have been overlooked if he’d had an accident in such a place. Are any of the ravines with water or other places similar to the ones she thought of on the way to one of the possible big hikes that Matt might have been going on??
Regarding people’s dreams about blue diamonds/crystals, could it be relevant that ski trials in the area (including one to the Earthquake Fault that people mentioned) are marked with blue diamonds? (There's also Crystal Lake and Crag...)
http://www.cityconcierge.com/mammoth-lakes/winter/blue-diamond-trail
To Matt’s family and friends, I’m so sorry you’re going through this. To those who are trying to solve this and especially those who are putting your lives on the line searching, you have my appreciation and admiration.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Aug 23, 2013 - 03:15pm PT
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We're all starting to hypothesize so I'll add another unlikely scenario.
Someone (a climber) might have only wanted his lovely big pack, crampons and new boots and nothing else. Is his ice axe also missing?
There's a major (and likely) assumption that Matt took this gear with him. The negative is also a (unlikely) possibility.
My best hunch is Matt went out in the Minarets/Ritter/Banner area with an ice-climbing objective and meant to be back the same day.
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tdg119
Social climber
Northampton, PA
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Aug 23, 2013 - 03:23pm PT
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Muzzy - Verizon has his phone showing as a Verizon Wireless Blitz model (this is what shows when I log in to his acct).
Text Messages (times listed in Eastern Time - this is just what I grabbed of most recent - there were others from earlier in month)
Date Time To From Direction
07/17/2013 5:53 AM Received
07/16/2013 11:34 PM Received
07/16/2013 11:09 PM Sent
07/16/2013 10:52 PM Received
07/16/2013 10:38 PM Received
07/16/2013 9:13 PM Sent
07/16/2013 8:57 PM Received
07/16/2013 7:40 PM Sent
07/16/2013 6:00 PM Sent
07/15/2013 10:38 PM Received
07/15/2013 10:36 PM Sent
07/15/2013 10:34 PM Received
07/15/2013 7:44 PM Sent
07/15/2013 3:21 PM Received
07/14/2013 5:50 PM Received
07/14/2013 5:24 PM Sent
07/14/2013 5:13 PM Received
07/13/2013 7:41 PM Sent
07/13/2013 7:21 PM Received
07/13/2013 7:15 PM Sent
Call log (shown in Pacific Time):
Date Time Minutes Rate
7/10 1:59 PM 15 Peak -- (parents)
7/10 2:26 PM 3 Peak --
7/12 5:10 PM 2 Peak -- (repair shop)
7/12 5:13 PM 1 Peak -- (repair shop)
7/14 8:03 PM 1 Off-Peak -- (voicemail)
7/15 5:04 AM 2 Off-Peak --
7/15 6:01 AM 2 Peak --
7/15 4:46 PM 1 Peak -- (voicemail)
7/15 5:49 PM 2 Peak --
7/15 6:34 PM 1 Peak -- (voicemail)
7/15 6:35 PM 7 Peak --
7/15 6:46 PM 1 Peak -- (voicemail)
7/16 8:12 AM 1 Peak -- (voicemail)
7/16 3:06 PM 24 Peak -- (parents)
7/16 4:29 PM 1 Peak -- (repair shop)
7/16 4:35 PM 2 Peak -- (repair shop)
Email from detective regarding phone trace (this is part of a String of communication, breaks are where we asked clarification/more info - tried to pull pertinent info but this is verbatim from the emails):
"Nothing has changed as far as the info I told you re: the telephone calls made/received on the 16th of July, last call made was at 4:35 pm. There are no other telephones calls made/received after that specific date and time. As far as any text messages, please ask the subject you mentioned what was the text message between him and Greene about. He should have some knowledge what they texted each other about.
Your answer to pinging “when you receive or send a text.”
Pinging a cell phone is finding out what cell tower their phone is in. This can be used to locate a person that you know has the cell phone. This is used by law enforcement on a regular basis. If a bad guy is carrying a cell phone the phone is constantly sending signals to the closest cell tower, even if the phone isn't in use. The location of the cell tower will tell you that the person is within a certain range. When the person moves they can be tracked by which cell towers the signal is bouncing to.
There were no more pings after the 16th of July at 4:35 pm.
I contacted Verizon re: text message retrieval. Verizon only holds that information for about 3 to 4 days. Per Verizon too much time has passed by.
I asked Bill Greene (SAR member) to come by the station this morning to review the Verizon information I had requested. We could not find any other information that would assist us in his exact last location.
I talked to the campers who camped on each side of Greene’s camp site 164. It was a family that paid for camp site 163 & 165. They left a few days prior to the 16th of July, and didn’t relay converse with Greene. They had no information.
I am sorry. I wish there was more that I could do to find Greene.
8:12 am to 3:06 pm, July 16, 2013 - Lat 37.638167 Lon -118.961611, 1601 Meridian Blvd, Mammoth Lakes, Ca. Directly south of the library. Directly north a mile or two is where Greene was camping.
4:29 pm to 4:35 pm, July 16, 2103 – Lat 37.630528 Log -119-033078, 5920 Minaret Rd, Mammoth Lakes, Ca, top of Mammoth Mountain.
2:48 pm, July 17, 2013, 39 Pinecrest, Mammoth Lakes, Ca, Verizon building and tower.
From July 17, 2013 to July 30, 2013, 39 Pinecrest, Mammoth Lakes, Ca
The only ping is what I indicated above.
That’s all I have and all I can retrieve from Verizon.
Verizon nor any other cellular service provider ping text, it pings the telephone when the telephone is on, not turned off.
2:48 pm, this address is the main Verizon building/tower in Mammoth Lakes. There is no activity after the 16th of July, as indicated on my Verizon emergency request re: Greene’s cell phone, his phone was turned off/powered off. The 2:48 pm is not a ping, because there is no Lat & Lon indicated. "
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tdg119
Social climber
Northampton, PA
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Aug 23, 2013 - 03:32pm PT
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We were told the library deletes browsing history nightly for security purposes. From an IT standpoint it should still be there, but when friends double-checked (unsure of process) but conclusion was that it was unattainable.
Rite-Aid is going through video but apparently a slow process as undoubtedly there are lmited resources and each register is filmed separately. Plus we're unsure of time, just know that his CC reflects purchase on 16th.
I put the detective's note about neighboring campers in last post.
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SplitPants
Social climber
LA
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Aug 23, 2013 - 03:50pm PT
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tdg119
Thanks for the clarifications.
You are correct, from an IT standpoint there is a way to get the browser history even if it is automatically deleted on a nightly basis, however, this would take an law enforcement IT forensics unit with the proper "tools." Has anyone asked MLPD if they have the tools or perhaps can contact Mono County for assistance? Also if you can check Matts debit/credit card statements to see if there is a charge for a place called the Looney Bean. It is a coffee shop 2 doors down from the Rite Aid and they have free wifi/computer access. If he went there perhaps he used their computer.
Rite-Aid video-Maybe you can help them expedite the process. Perhaps if you can provide them with the last 4-6 digits of Matts debit/credit card they can search the cash register database and back into the register and timestamp of the transaction. I know for a fact that a database admin can back into a time, transaction number and register number if they have the last 4-6 digits of the cc/debit number. The database encrypts the cc/debit number for security, but usually unmasks the last 4 digits (make a credit/debit purchase and look at the receipt...usually you will see a bunch of X's followed by the last 4 digits of the card number).
Campers-thanks for the clarification, but did they speak to any other campers? Did they obtain a guest registry? Speaking to the sites on opposite sides is good, but if there happened to be any campers of "suspect" characters it would be an unknown so this is why I asked if the MLPD requested a list of registered campers from the site manager. The fact that they just put Matts stuff in storage when he didnt return and take any action is a bummer:(
Hope this helps somehow.......
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SplitPants
Social climber
LA
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Aug 23, 2013 - 04:29pm PT
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tiffany/ron
In a thread up above you mentioned
There were no more pings after the 16th of July at 4:35 pm.
Do you or any of Matts friends know his early morning/pre-climb habits? If Matt shut his phone off the evening of the 16th, woke up early the morning of the 17th to hike would he have likely powered up his phone to check messages and/or cell battery level before heading out?
I am asking because if this was his normal routine and the last ping was on the afternoon of the 16th then this is something that happened that is NOT his normal routine and is something that should be taken into consideration.
Also as MGuzzy asked is any friends/family representing Matt still in town?
Hope this makes sense...just thinking/writing out loud.......
MGuzzy
The first step to doing this is get a clone of the hard drives for later analysis. You my find a local IT person with the know how to at least get the drives cloned. The longer time that passes the harder it is to extract the information.
Exactly!
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SplitPants
Social climber
LA
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Aug 23, 2013 - 04:34pm PT
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If anyone knows specific gear details to search for I recommend a classified search engine.
This is an excellent search engine I use to find things on most classifieds including Craigslist and it includes eBay and Amazon as well. Input the Mammoth zip code of 93546 and the search radius/miles. It is a lot faster than searching each city within Craigslist.
http://www.searchtempest.com
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tdg119
Social climber
Northampton, PA
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Aug 23, 2013 - 04:48pm PT
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Go with what is on the Verizon statement "Verizon Wireless Blitz"
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tdg119
Social climber
Northampton, PA
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Aug 23, 2013 - 04:50pm PT
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The phone in the picture is what shows on his account. I am guessing the other comment came from correlating a non smartphone to the old flip phones.
Thanks for the easy search link. I searched his pack (Mountain Hardware South Col) a few different ways with no luck. Phone shows on 2 posts; 1 looks like reseller, other a deleted post from 7/18 but @ Inland Empire area 175 miles away. Boots spark here and there but only remaining post is wrong size.
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jeg
Social climber
center valley,Pa
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Aug 23, 2013 - 04:58pm PT
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some answers to some questions...
I think that was his phone but black. He could only call and text. No internet.
I spoke to rite aid myself when we went back out there. The person who can look at the video to see which register he was on is on vacation. In the mean time the manager is looking through each register(4 of them) to find the exact amount purchased. It is very time consuming and she is spending as much time as possible on it.
SAR searched Bloody Mt
Went to library myself, they insisted there is NO way to retrieve any information previously reserched on there 20 computers????
Detective stated he questioned the people in the campsites around Matt's campsite during that time.
No other items were missing. His full rack of gear were there.
He had 2 sets of crampons. His strap ons were with his stuff. The step in crampons he borrowed from my husband for the summer are missing.
When we were with him those 10 days, he only mentioned going to the library for research(which he did often). He never mentioned going to looney beans.
The question about "normal Routine" is hard. He was out of his normal routine without transportation and car charging capabilities for his phone.
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Crazy Bat
Sport climber
Birmingham, AL & Seweanee, TN
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Aug 23, 2013 - 05:03pm PT
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This may have been covered up link, but did he have a way to charge his phone other than his car charger? If he did and was not in the habit of turning his phone off at night I would be looking at the roads around Mammoth. He may have been walking and involved in an accident that disabled his phone, such as a hit and run.
If he didn't the odd time (who goes to bed that early) makes me think the battery ran down.
Wish there was something I could do to help.
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jeg
Social climber
center valley,Pa
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Aug 23, 2013 - 05:15pm PT
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He also had a electric charger which he would of charged his phone in the library on the 16th.
The Rite aid says they can find the transaction, they just need the time to look. We know the exact date and amount of the transaction and that is what they are looking for. When the guy returns from vacation that can look through the video they will be able to narrow it down to which register he was on and what time.
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jeg
Social climber
center valley,Pa
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Aug 23, 2013 - 05:17pm PT
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Anyone climbing/hiking this weekend, please check the summit registries. We know he signed the one on Clyde Minaret. If we could just come across a signing on the 17th!!!
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LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
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Aug 23, 2013 - 05:23pm PT
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@jeg -- For the most likely peaks, it also might be good to know who else signed the registers on July 17th. If they could be contacted, they might have seen Matt at the trailhead or on the trail or on a particular shuttle, or they might be certain they did not see him.
(I admit this is a long shot, especially if most climbers sign the registers illegibly...)
ETA: if you're on a likely summit and have a smartphone or camera, it might be good to take a picture of any register pages for the time around July 17th in addition to jotting down some notes.
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tdg119
Social climber
Northampton, PA
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Aug 23, 2013 - 05:36pm PT
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As Cragman pointed out. It is also important to know which peaks he did not sign. So as Jill said, anyone headed out this weekend let the forum know. -Ron
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Aug 23, 2013 - 06:05pm PT
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photographing the most recent page or two of the summit registers is an excellent idea
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mattyj
Mountain climber
Truckee
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Aug 23, 2013 - 06:13pm PT
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Went to library myself, they insisted there is NO way to retrieve any information previously reserched on there 20 computers????
I don't want to sidetrack things with an argument over this, but I think that you got some technically true but misleading information upthread. When a file gets deleted the data on the disk doesn't disappear, and it's still possible to recover the contents up until something new gets stored in the same spot. A month later, there will have been so much disk activity that the odds of successfully reconstructing the browser history are slim. It's technically possible, but trying to do this across 20 computers is a staggering amount of work for a very low chance of success.
If this is an avenue you want to explore, you may have better luck trying to get server logs from sites like Summitpost. It's reasonably possible to determine the library computer's IP from Matt's known post about water intoxication and then use that to determine what if any peak/route pages he looked at on the afternoon of the 16th. I'd be willing to help with this, however I don't want to oversell the odds of anything useful coming of it. It's likely that nothing will, even if they still have the logs.
Edit: Banner had no entries for +/- 2 days, but I did photograph the relevant pages of the Ritter register. Didn't add it to the trip report as Mono SAR had already followed up on it and I didn't want a well-meaning mob trying to track down the signees.
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x1n54n3x
Boulder climber
mammoth lakes
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Aug 23, 2013 - 07:22pm PT
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Tiffany, my name is Alex. First, I am very sorry for your family and loved ones, this must be extremely difficult for all involved.
I live in town and have been following this thread closely. I have one question after reading your post about the psychic. What kind of glasses did Matt have?
I read that post and only ONE area came to mind. I've been there several times and while a longshot, and I can't say I 100% believe in psychics, the correlation between the description and my knowledge of the area had me quite literally shaking.
The Inyo Craters is a short self-guided tour of two volcanic craters very slightly north of town off of the Scenic Loop road. This is very much within 1 mile of the village, easily walkable. The trail itself is easy and opens up to the two water-filled craters, one of which is surrounded partly by a railing. There are rattle snakes in the area (I've witnessed them myself) and the crater that is railed has some tempting rock features (I am not an experienced climber, but could imagine they wouldn't be hard to solo). Having been to the bottom of this crater, I know that it is extremely difficult to get out without rope, especially if a fall rendered any sort of injury.
I went to the crater about an hour ago and found these at the trailhead. I've been looking at photos on facebook to try and analyze for similarities and the shape and frame look similar to me, though the resolution of the facebook photo once downloaded, combined with the angle of the shot, make this process difficult.
Once inside the crater, I noticed what I would believe to be fairly recent rockfall- though I am not an expert. I am currently analyzing photos of the area I took this past spring, with the ones I took today.
I realize this is a long shot and I don't mean to blow any whistles, but the feeling I got when I read your post this morning was very distinct- the glasses at the trailhead solidified that feeling.
I hope with all my heart that I am wrong and evidence points to a Matt who has been surviving in the wilderness, but I CANNOT ignore my trip to the craters this morning.
If there are any other shots of Matt with his glasses, or information that would identify his glasses, this could be a serious lead.
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tdg119
Social climber
Northampton, PA
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Aug 23, 2013 - 08:03pm PT
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Did you take the glasses with you or leave them there? Can you get more photos?
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x1n54n3x
Boulder climber
mammoth lakes
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Aug 23, 2013 - 08:14pm PT
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They are at the trailhead in case they were not Matts. I can grab them in a 25 minute round trip if need be though. Hikers around here are careful not to disturb "lost and found" items as we've all lost something and had it waiting for us at the trailhead at some point or another.
Here are all the pictures I took of the glasses:
I was unable to identify a brand other than the markings in white in the photos. The model appears to be identified by the markings "CC0912 FERRIX BLK".
Attached to the glasses is a set of Chums eyewear retainers that looked much newer than the glasses themselves. Perhaps those who were with him can verify if he owned/bought them while here in town? Maybe a rite-aid purchase?
[EDIT] I've identified the brand as "Personal Optics" after searching real quick.
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crankster
Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
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Aug 23, 2013 - 08:27pm PT
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From facebook.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
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Aug 23, 2013 - 08:31pm PT
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Seems identical in many ways zoomed-in up-close comparing both.
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tdg119
Social climber
Northampton, PA
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Aug 23, 2013 - 08:34pm PT
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there is a blue diamond in the upper left, and its crystal like lenses - just like my dream. Also something I did not share, in my dream matt was holding a crystal in his hand - look at the hiker holding the stick.
I blew these up on my bog screen, they look EXACTLY like matts - WHERE IS CRAGMAN!
~ Ron
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crankster
Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
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Aug 23, 2013 - 08:37pm PT
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Wouldn't his friend, Jill, know if he wore Chums on his glasses?
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tdg119
Social climber
Northampton, PA
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Aug 23, 2013 - 08:38pm PT
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I just called Jill - went to VM ~ Ron
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
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Aug 23, 2013 - 08:39pm PT
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x1n54n3x,
I'd go retrieve those glasses ASAP I think you found Matt's glasses.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Aug 23, 2013 - 08:45pm PT
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Fair enough chance they may be. At least enough chance that it is worth getting them into the investigation properly. Call 911 go guard them and wait for sheriff. Don't handle them any more please.
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SplitPants
Social climber
LA
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Aug 23, 2013 - 08:46pm PT
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x1n54n3x
EXCELLENT!!!!!!! [edit] By chance did you happen to notice if the chums looked relatively new?
All,
I took the photo of Matt from Facebook and opened it in Photoshop. I zoomed into about 300% (until the image got too blurry). Had a couple of folks look at the image with me and honestly we are on the fence. The image when zoomed....the frame at the top of the glasses and metal for the bridge of the nose looks a little different.
I went to the flicker page to see if there were other photos with Matts glasses (http://www.flickr.com/groups/findmattgreene/); I found this image:
https://secure.flickr.com/photos/tdavidock/9446013683/sizes/k/in/pool-2303817@N22/ I could not pull the image into photoshop because it is protected, but I zoomed in. This image is better....looks very similar to the pictures posted above. Does any of Matts climbing friends know if he uses chums?
(FYI) The glasses should be left where they were found as they may be potential evidence or belong to another hiker. If the family believes those are Matts glasses the MLPD needs to be called ASAP.
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SalNichols
Big Wall climber
Richmond, CA
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Aug 23, 2013 - 08:48pm PT
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If you get those glasses to an optician, they can tell you what the prescription is for comparison to Matt's. I'd also avoid touching them, put them in a paper bag in case there are fingerprints or DNA tone gathered. Get them to the cop shed.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
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Aug 23, 2013 - 08:49pm PT
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Note the blue diamond above the glasses on the tree as a marker.
I think you're right. Matt was telling you where to look.
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tdg119
Social climber
Northampton, PA
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Aug 23, 2013 - 08:53pm PT
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I spoke with Alex, he is bringing them to detective Hornbeck now. We will look for fingerprints, secure them, etc...~ Ron
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
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Aug 23, 2013 - 08:54pm PT
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i am sure there are other local resources...i founded the Inyo County SCUBA SAR team years ago...but we can volunteer a team of professional divers, including surface supplied air for long searches with AquaMask communications and dry suits for very cold water
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tdg119
Social climber
Northampton, PA
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Aug 23, 2013 - 08:57pm PT
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@ TOM - I spoke with Alex, the person who found them. Probability is very high they are Matts. All things fit. When do we go? ~ Ron
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RM217
climber
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Aug 23, 2013 - 08:59pm PT
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I had PM Tiffany earlier RE: My dream...
I am not a psychic, nor have I ever pretended to be nor have I ever wanted to be. I don't even read horoscopes. I have had some strange dreams in the past, that have come to pass... and it has really freaked me out. A couple of weeks ago, I had a dream about Matthew (although he was never in the dream, but I knew it was about him - just the overwhelming feeling I had about the dream). And I'm not a "crazy" person and I live a normal (not paranormal) life.
Anyway - my dream was this:
I was looking through a window (glass) and I saw a tree of many leaves. It appeared as though it was one tree with a variety of leaves/needles. It was very vivid. To the upper left, there was a shiny blue diamond (as in diamond shape, not diamond ring). It was light blue - like the color of the sky, not a dark blue. The tree was large in my view and the diamond was very small in comparison to the tree.
I discounted the dream and told myself I was absolutely nuts and my imagination was just running away with itself. Then I got another confirmation, that gave me goosebumps. Which was a blue diamond that shown through an unsettled sky. It was for an instant and gone.
Today, I learned the family had used a psychic and felt very compelled to PM Tiffany, which I did. And then I found out that her husband also dreamed of a blue crystal/diamond-shaped.
And then I logged on here and saw all photo of the "glasses" and every element of my dream was in the picture. It was eerie to say the least. Looking through the glass and seeing the reflection of the trees and the small blue diamond in the picture... Really strange.
And... then a little while later, I found out a former student of Matthew Greene (at Nazareth) also dreamed of Matt - sliding down a hill, on his rear, feet first, and coming to rest by a blue crystal.
I don't know what this my all means - I don't want to send anyone on any wild goose chases. Is it a coincidence? I'd prefer to think of it as Divine Intervention... but, I just don't know....???
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SplitPants
Social climber
LA
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Aug 23, 2013 - 09:01pm PT
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Wow this is amazing! Any chance in contacting Matts local eye doctor to pull his records (prescription, brand etc...) so local optometrist can match? Arg...didn't realize how late it is back in PA.
Sending positive vibes and prayers!
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mattyj
Mountain climber
Truckee
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Aug 23, 2013 - 09:03pm PT
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Deep breath, everyone.
While it's a promising lead that deserves further investigation, my (albeit, limited) experience is that anyone who expects law enforcement to roll in code 3 and immediately start swabbing those things for DNA is probably going to be disappointed.
Among the basic questions that need to be answered before getting too excited:
- Are there higher resolution versions of the photos posted to Facebook? I agree that it looks like there are some differences, but it's impossible to tell with the resolution / compression of the FB images.
- Can Matt's glasses be accounted for among his belongings?
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
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Aug 23, 2013 - 09:21pm PT
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I don't know what this my all means - I don't want to send anyone on any wild goose chases. Is it a coincidence? I'd prefer to think of it as Divine Intervention... but, I just don't know....???
RM217,
Thanks for posting that. I've had experiences like this from dreams myself, and it is G-d's intervention to solve this mystery and to help Matt's loved ones and his friends. Thank you for sharing that. Baruch HaShem.
HaShem does indeed send us dreams with specific purposes and meaning ...
http://www.gotquestions.org/Christian-dream-interpretation.html
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x1n54n3x
Boulder climber
mammoth lakes
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Aug 23, 2013 - 09:29pm PT
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Just got back. The glasses are with the MLPD. Hornbeck wasn't in the office, but they were left with officer Hugelman. He, as well as the other officer present, agreed that they looked strikingly similar to the ones pictured on facebook. I'm not sure if SAR will be notified right away, but if anyone in the Mammoth/June/Eastern Sierra would like to go out first thing in the morning, I'm more than willing to show everything I've seen today.
The water is a fairly opaque blue, so any evidence that is submerged will need diving assistance/personel. I can't imagine the water is too cold as the elevation is relatively low for the area. I'm also unsure as to how deep the water is. I do know the level has only fluctuated about 1-2.5 ft since the spring.
This trail is less than a mile long and VERY easy to locate. Getting to the crater is not a risk to search efforts whatsoever. The inside of the crater is slightly more dangerous, as I cannot determine the stability of the rock walls on my own. I would not touch anything steeper than the easiest slope I used to enter the crater. The rocks, from experience in the winter time, are not secure and tend to break away from the mountainside.
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nah000
climber
canuckistan
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Aug 23, 2013 - 09:30pm PT
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while this doesn't add much to what's already been said, there's no question the proportions of the glasses are very similar to those on the facebook photo even if the resolution and difference in angles means it's impossible to be 100% certain.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
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Aug 23, 2013 - 09:31pm PT
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Aug 23, 2013 - 06:23pm PT
the glasses seem different- the cross bar between the eyes looks Gold on Matts,, black on the pair found..??
Ron,
I would disagree. The glasses Matt is wearing, they seem black to me with slight light hi-light. Look at the black frames. There is light hi-light also yet they are black.
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SplitPants
Social climber
LA
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Aug 23, 2013 - 09:31pm PT
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I am working with the FB image to see if I can increase the image without losing the resolution. I have Photoshop and some other tools. If I am successful I will post the results.
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
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Aug 23, 2013 - 09:33pm PT
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we're checking out the altitude tables (decompression requirements are very different than sea level)
anybody know the lake depth and surface altitude?
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monolith
climber
SF bay area
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Aug 23, 2013 - 09:35pm PT
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Compression artifacts, sun angles, camera lenses, can make the pics look a little different. Finger prints and/or prescription should tell the story sooner than dna.
Maybe a fingerprint could lead to the person that found them, who could then say where they were found originally.
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x1n54n3x
Boulder climber
mammoth lakes
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Aug 23, 2013 - 09:39pm PT
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I don't have my topo on me right now (headed home in a few) but it looks to be about 8k is the surface, perhaps a little bit lower.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Aug 23, 2013 - 09:44pm PT
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Google earth shows lake at 8100 feet.
USGS shows about 2440 meters or approx 8000ft
37.691461
-119.011726
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LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
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Aug 23, 2013 - 09:54pm PT
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To me, the the outside bottom corners of the glasses that Alex found at the trailhead look a little squarer than the corners of Matt's glasses in the Facebook picture, which seem a little more rounded. The glasses Matt is wearing seem a bit more angled and rounded. But it's hard to tell from that angle.
And the dreams and the images from the psychic are spooky! I hope this is the big break we've been hoping for.
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tdg119
Social climber
Northampton, PA
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Aug 23, 2013 - 10:01pm PT
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Tony texted me say there was a pair of glasses in Matt's car. That's not to say it wasn't a spare. Asked him to get me info on the ones in car for comparison. We'll see if it's yay or nay...
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Aug 23, 2013 - 10:03pm PT
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Any optician can compare two pairs of glasses. They may have different prescriptions but the differences between the two eyes should be similar for the same person.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
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Aug 23, 2013 - 10:07pm PT
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x1n54n3x,
Where did you exactly find the glasses again? At the trail-head on the ground? Did someone else already find them and place them there? You were the one to hang them so others could see them and possibly claim them?
Just wondering? If you weren't the original one to find them who was and where?
Thanks for what you have done for helping to solve this mystery.
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tdg119
Social climber
Northampton, PA
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Aug 23, 2013 - 10:07pm PT
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In looking at other pictures of Matt wearing glasses, he had others. HOWEVER, they were all in the same style. It appears that throughout the years he got new glasses (as we all do) but stuck to the same basic style as shown in these pics.
How common are these glasses?
He could have some in his car that were his back-up for driving only.
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maverick01
climber
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Aug 23, 2013 - 10:15pm PT
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Just got off the phone with Tom, Matthew's friend, who will be
checking out the photo's and hopefully be able to identify them
as being Matthew's or not. The facebook photo and the recovered
glasses are different (there is a black frame visible on the upper
and side portion of the glasses, but the facebook shot has no
frame visible), hope I am wrong and this facebook photo was taken
a while back and he has had new prescriptions made since.
Dave should be on his way to the Minarets.
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SplitPants
Social climber
LA
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Aug 23, 2013 - 10:21pm PT
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Hi,
I tried to zoom in on the glasses a bit. Because this is not a vector file when you increase the resolution etc you lose some quality. I used photoshop in conjunction with a program called ben vista and blow up 3.
I would be interested in the opinion of others (my eyes are tired). To me (and my eye sight isnt great) the top of the glasses (meaning the frame over the top of each eye) looks non-existent and the frame over the bridge of the nose looks different.
Hope this helps in some small way. Ultimately Matts optometrist in PA would know for certain I would think.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
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Aug 23, 2013 - 10:21pm PT
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The frame at the top and inside by the nose is visible. There is no frame at the bottom, just like the ones found at the trailhead.
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tdg119
Social climber
Northampton, PA
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Aug 23, 2013 - 10:23pm PT
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The ones in his car are the ones from the picture w/ cap. They're Nike brand. Doesn't mean he didn't have a spare. Will be doing some hunting to find his optometrist and/or RX tomorrow.
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monolith
climber
SF bay area
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Aug 23, 2013 - 10:26pm PT
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That settles that, they are not the same. But, the overall style is the same. Still very promising.
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jeg
Social climber
center valley,Pa
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Aug 23, 2013 - 10:29pm PT
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I went through our pictures this year and I don't have one of Matt in his glasses this summer. He wore the strap with his sunglasses but I didn't see him ever where the strap with his perscription glasses.
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x1n54n3x
Boulder climber
mammoth lakes
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Aug 23, 2013 - 10:30pm PT
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x1n54n3x,
Where did you exactly find the glasses again? At the trail-head on the ground? Did someone else already find them and place them there? You were the one to hang them so others could see them and possibly claim them?
Just wondering? If you weren't the original one to find them who was and where?
Thanks for what you have done for helping to solve this mystery.
When I arrived at the trailhead, they were already hanging. I am unsure as to who found them or when they were found.
The post they were on is the further of the two trails (they both parallel eachother, but one goes directly to the lower crater, the other to the upper crater). It is perfectly believable that the majority of people who visit this spot venture off out on the first trail because they simply do not know the second trail exists. When I arrived there were maybe 3 or 4 cars parked at the first trail, whereas there was only one other besides my own at the second. They are only separated by a couple hundred feet.
Regarding the frames, when I blew up the facebook photo, it appeared that the black frames surrounded only the top of the glasses, just like the ones I found. The shape of the lenses, width of the arms and proportion of the location of the bridge all seem to match, but again, the facebook photo becomes distorted at 300%.
The rockfall: I realize we've had some serious rains in the past month, but I believe the debris I pointed out look less weathered than the rest. The rest of the surrounding rock and dirt having experienced several years or seasons of settling. It just looked different to me- but I am not an expert. The wall above the debris looked especially unstable as well.
I will be going back out with a couple people as well as our dogs tomorrow morning around 8 a.m. If anyone in the area would like to join, shoot me a pm.
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monolith
climber
SF bay area
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Aug 23, 2013 - 10:31pm PT
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Possibly, the person who found the glasses used their strap to hold them in a very visible and secure spot on the sign.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
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Aug 23, 2013 - 10:36pm PT
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x1n54n3x,
Thank you for the detail.
Wow, obviously trying to track down the person/people who first found the glasses and where is vital. I hope word gets out and they come forward.
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x1n54n3x
Boulder climber
mammoth lakes
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Aug 23, 2013 - 10:39pm PT
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I realize typing"x1n54n3x" can be a pain, feel free to call me Alex.
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crankster
Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
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Aug 23, 2013 - 10:39pm PT
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He'd likely get the glasses near his home. Shouldn't take too long to get the info and compare prescriptions.
Still doesn't account for the missing gear.
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x1n54n3x
Boulder climber
mammoth lakes
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Aug 23, 2013 - 10:43pm PT
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The temples on the ones I found contain different colors, the centers are gunmetalish. We have determined though that Matt had Nike glasses though, maybe he picked these up because his were left in the car?
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tdg119
Social climber
Northampton, PA
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Aug 23, 2013 - 10:48pm PT
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By the time Matt's friends got his stuff, everything was thrown in the car so until w clarify with the detective, no way of knowing whether pair in car came from car or campsite.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Aug 23, 2013 - 10:54pm PT
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I've been following this thread every day when I'm home. I have not posted, except for an early "best wishes" because I am not local up there and have had nothing to contribute.
Now as I look at all these images of the glasses however, I think it is safe to conclude that the found glasses are a good match to Matt's. The differences, one image to the next, are likely to be artifacts of digital imaging, sensors, cameras, resolution, angle of view, lighting etc. The similarities are remarkable, the apparent differences minute.
A comparison of the lens prescription must be made ASAP. And every effort must be made to find out who first found the glasses and when and where. The fact that someone was cool enough to hang them on the trail sign to be found by their owner tends to indicate a certain type, perhaps a local. Can local businesses use their email lists to put the word out regarding these glasses? Such an effort could contact a huge number of people with minimum effort.
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MisterE
climber
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Aug 23, 2013 - 11:02pm PT
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I agree with the other posters that a specific prescription for similar looking glasses could speak volumes.
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SalNichols
Big Wall climber
Richmond, CA
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Aug 23, 2013 - 11:06pm PT
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I'd caution everyone to PLEASE stick to evidential facts. Dreams, and psychics are interesting, but you can't go running after "visions". People are out searching treacherous terrain, at no small risk to themselves, based upon the collective experience of the community...because Matt didn't leave us much to go on. I know that people are desperately grasping at straws; and I do understand that, but we have to focus on what we know, and failing that, what is or was most likely. We have an incredibly difficult task here, lets not go off on tangents that lack supporting evidence. That's just too many degrees of freedom.
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
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Aug 23, 2013 - 11:13pm PT
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just a note from someone who has worn glasses all my life
i have several pairs of glasses, they tend to be similar style, based on personal taste, but not all the same
also, having acquired them over time, they don't all have exactly the same prescription
good luck finding 'my optometrist', there have been quite a few over the years...
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
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Aug 23, 2013 - 11:48pm PT
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Aug 23, 2013 - 08:06pm PT
I'd caution everyone to PLEASE stick to evidential facts. Dreams, and psychics are interesting, but you can't go running after "visions". People are out searching treacherous terrain, at no small risk to themselves, based upon the collective experience of the community...because Matt didn't leave us much to go on. I know that people are desperately grasping at straws; and I do understand that, but we have to focus on what we know, and failing that, what is or was most likely. We have an incredibly difficult task here, lets not go off on tangents that lack supporting evidence. That's just too many degrees of freedom.
Please don't dismiss what people, loved ones, friends of Matt's have witnessed in their dreams. This is very real for them. They've had the guts to share it all with us too. Not an easy thing to do, especially here on ST. Different people, close friends of his, some unrelated yet having similar dreams. Powerful stuff. And then the family went to a psychic, and detailed info was given. Again difficult to share, yet they did. And this then has led others to follow they're own understandings of these perceptions, these dreams, psychic detail, and then go after it. Thank you Alex.
I have a good feeling this mystery is going to get solved as a result of these private disclosures. People are really pulling together on this :-)
Powerful, powerful stuff.
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
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Aug 24, 2013 - 12:02am PT
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diving this lake presents its own special challenges, with steep and loose approach slopes at the angle of repose
the diver/climbers can rappel down and use jumars as hand holds for re-ascent (three of our divers have done El Cap ascents)
this is complicated by the need to dive in very cold water, while going down and up the approach slope in relatively warm conditions...
we always try to minimize the divers exertion prior to the actual dive to prevent overheating and premature exhaustion
we will use dry suits with rock boots for the cold water and rugged approach
a dive tender on a parallel rope in normal clothes can help stage and retrieve air tanks and weights closer to the waters edge
the lake doesn't look very deep, perhaps no more than 50 feet...this is helpful, because the Navy dive tables don't give you much time at depth, when the surface is at this high an altitude
looks like glacier milk colored water i.e. poor visibility (we are used to working with no vis)
a standard SAR technical team should be available with a three-to-one rig and slippery litter for dragging heavy loads up over loose talus
we also need help moving heavy gear from our equipment van to the dive site, i.e. large air bottles, heavy air-control/comm box, dive weights, etc.
it is preferable to use surface supplied air with an umbilical to the diver, supplying air, comm, and a belay; as contrasted with heavy SCUBA tanks with limited breathing time
this allows the diver to carry a relatively light-weight bailout bottle (SCUBA tanks are more challenging to maneuver on this sort of cliff approach)
our umbilicals are 180 feet long, so this has to be taken into account in choosing a staging area
we normally dive with a standby backup diver who has rigged up and tested his rig in the water before the primary diver ever gets wet
we obviously need to do our best protecting people down-slope from rock fall
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LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
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Aug 24, 2013 - 12:04am PT
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Crankster, you’re right that a small local outing would not explain the missing gear. The missing gear points to a coherent story, which appears to be the main hypothesis to date: That Matt went on a big hike to somewhere with snow and ice, such as Ritter/Banner/the Minarets and had an accident.
If he had a huge day hike planned, while he could still have had trouble before reaching the mountain in question (for instance, if he had hitchhiked), presumably he would not have wasted time visiting scenic local places or doing ad hoc rock climbing at them. And if he just wanted to visit scenic local places, he probably would not have brought that gear.
On the other hand, if there is some medium-sized nearby objective with snow he could have gone to, he might have both brought the gear and also visited scenic local places on the way. And it’s certainly possible that he did do an easier local hike and that there's some other explanation for the missing gear. (In my opinion, if some people’s hunches and dreams point to possibilities closer to town, and others are able and willing to check those places out, those may actually be safer and easier places to search, if done carefully.)
One thing I’m wondering about, which people close to Matt might know: would he have mentioned a really big hike to family and friends, or would he have not talked about it to avoid alarming them? Also, is he likely to have planned a big hike in advance, or might he have planned such a hike the day before (when he heard that his car would be another two days), or even on the morning of the hike?
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SalNichols
Big Wall climber
Richmond, CA
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Aug 24, 2013 - 12:05am PT
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I lost 5 friends at once a year ago. Two of them without a trace. I'm not dismissing their experiences, I'm saying that we can't react to anything but tangible evidence. There are too many degrees of freedom to spin off after dreams and visions, no matter how real they may seem.
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LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
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Aug 24, 2013 - 12:07am PT
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Tom, that sounds very daunting. Am I correct in assuming that y'all would wait before the glasses and any related evidence (such as the nature of the possible rockfall seen by Alex) are checked out before doing anything?
SalNichols, I'm sorry for your loss. I think that it is precisely because there are so many degrees of freedom that it may make sense to pay a little more attention to possible psychic phenomena than usual.
But I can understand how you might think otherwise, and agree that it's important to continue to seek more tangible evidence -- to work on that timeline, to try to wrest more info from any computers Matt may have used or internet searches he may have done and from people who might have seen him such as others at the campground, to consider the possibility of foul play, and most dauntingly, to continue to search the mountains as Cragman, mattyj, and others been doing.
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Crazy Bat
Sport climber
Birmingham, AL & Seweanee, TN
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Aug 24, 2013 - 12:30am PT
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Almost all cave divers can climb rope and are used to limited visibility. Several Mexican caves are at altitude so those guys have experience with depth at altitude. Google Sistema Huatla,
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
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Aug 24, 2013 - 12:46am PT
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If it were me, I'd take the new clues and evidence given in this case:
*Dreams by separate people and friends yet common themes ... Blue diamonds, trees, hiking staff with clear crystal on top etc. etc. These experiences were finally shared publicly.
*Detailed description by a psychic the family went to. These details were finally shared publicly. Falling, ravine, snake bite, couldn't get help etc.
*Phone receives a text at an unusual hour in the early morning when his cell phone was normally off. Indicates trouble.
*Alex puts these things together with strong conviction and realizes its leading him to a close-by area that Alex is familiar with.
*He finds glasses found and left at the trail-head that seem incredibly similar, almost identical to the ones Matt wore. And this area is not far from the place his car was getting fixed. Within easy hiking distance.
*Alex's detailed images with clues within them are immediately recognized by those who had the dreams.
*Obviously, who ever first found and hung the glasses needs to be found. Where did they find the glasses? How did they find them? When did they find them? If that can all be determined, excellent starting point.
*From there I would SAR the entire region of the craters, with qualified volunteers and professionals obviously starting where it makes the most sense where he probably would go hiking visiting the area. Yes, that would include diving the craters if need be.
I think its gonna be figured out. There is hope of that happening. Too many different powerful evidences (that aren't commonly accepted) are adding up.
I've been to those craters and looked down into them with my dad, but that was way back in the 70s.
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Srbphoto
climber
Kennewick wa
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Aug 24, 2013 - 12:47am PT
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the Rite Aid thing bugs me. In my store I could have found his transaction if I knew the date and either the dollar amount or credit card # in less time than it took me to write this.
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x1n54n3x
Boulder climber
mammoth lakes
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Aug 24, 2013 - 12:51am PT
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From what I have heard, one SAR member went out after I dropped off the glasses, early evening today. Still waiting on the results of that. ML Police Chief Dan Watson commented on the facebook post that SAR was notified. Because of the nature of the area( easily accessible), I would assume that SAR will be out there tomorrow morning. Like I said, it is not hard to get to, the descent requires being careful, but is also easy. I will update this thread tomorrow morning when I hear more.
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
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Aug 24, 2013 - 01:05am PT
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yes, this is daunting and requires significant support resources, including a SAR team (and/or helicopter?) for heavy lifting/extraction at the lake surface
there is significant planning required...right now we are doing a table-top planning exercise on it, assessing required team and resources
we will go ahead if/when we feel assured of a reasonable likelihood and have assembled the necessary team
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SalNichols
Big Wall climber
Richmond, CA
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Aug 24, 2013 - 01:09am PT
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Start with what you know.
You know that Matt stayed over the 16 th and paid for the 17 th. you know that he was without wheels and dependent upon public transport or hitching.
You know, if you've read his blog, that he's picked up hitchikers...so hitching is an option to him.
Get the campground register and talk to everyone on it. Focus on the days disappearance -5 to + 5. Do background checks.
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murcy
Gym climber
sanfrancisco
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Aug 24, 2013 - 02:07am PT
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yeah, i'd go ahead and dismiss the dreams.
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ß Î Ø T Ç H
Boulder climber
extraordinaire
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Aug 24, 2013 - 02:19am PT
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Dreams (psychics) or cadaver dogs/ blood-hounds, lets get on with it (due respect to the family and friends).
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Jilli
Trad climber
Livermore, California/ Dunedin NZ
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Aug 24, 2013 - 08:36am PT
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Hey guys, I have been following this thread for the past many weeks. I don't know Matt but I do have a family friend who's husband went missing in pretty much the same area, same month, massive SAR effort, 10years ago. I can only imagine how hard it must be for the family/friends at this time. I too, would be trying anything to find him even if it means having faith in dreams/psychics/crystals... So that is why I find it disrespectful for some commenters to advise to dismiss the dreams... those dreams are exactly how the glasses have been found in the first place! They are very real and anyone who has had similar experience would attest to the same.
ALso, Losing a pair of prescription eye glasses while hiking in the wilderness cannot happen all that often... it would be a huge coincidence if these were not Matt's. One does not just leave something like that behind, especially if they are as blind as a bat without them...
That being said, may the search continue for Mr.Greene!
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Jilli
Trad climber
Livermore, California/ Dunedin NZ
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Aug 24, 2013 - 08:50am PT
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Btw, is there any info out there as to what extent he uses eye glasses? In some of the climbing pics on his flickr site he is without- so either doesn't need them all the time or wears contacts.
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tdg119
Social climber
Northampton, PA
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Aug 24, 2013 - 09:36am PT
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The optometrist here in pa just opened. Tiffany is on her way there now to get the scripts. - Ron
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fluffy
Trad climber
Colorado
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Aug 24, 2013 - 09:36am PT
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glasses like those show up at my local trailheads quite frequently...right up there with keys and baby/kids items. on a semi-weekly basis.
perhaps folks take them off to hike after driving to the trails and fail to secure them properly.
hope you're on the right track, this thread is gettin pretty wild.
nice detective work y'all.
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splitter
Trad climber
SoCal Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
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Aug 24, 2013 - 09:40am PT
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jeg - He just bought those boots this Spring...He doesn't hike/climb with "extra stuff". He would drop it off at his car up the street if he didn't want to leave it at the camp site. It appears as though he left camp rather early on the morning of the 17th. I was speculating that his car was locked inside the shop and not accessible until later in the morning. It's not unusual for someone to make last moment adjustments to there normal practices for whatever reasons. For example; didn't trust some fellow camper[s], or whatever, and at the last moment simply decided to take certain valuable items with him. Highly unlikely perhaps, but not out of the question. Someone asked why would he bring his ice gear with him if he didn't intend to use it, I just threw that out there. Like most others, I suspect that he simply decided to get in one last day in on rock, snow & ice somewhere and, unfortunately, didn't make it back to camp. Also, during the lapse of time (since he left camp & was reported missing/his campsite investigated) perhaps someone rifled through his tent and nabbed the pack and anything that looked valuable that they could fit in it including the boots, etc!
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LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
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Aug 24, 2013 - 09:46am PT
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I think one of Matt’s relatives said that he always wore either contacts or glasses, which to me implies nearsightedness. A friend of his over on Facebook says that Matt “never wore his glasses for outdoor activities. But he was having more and more trouble with his contacts and always switching back and forth. So maybe he did start wearing his glasses and therefore, purchased the Chums to wear with them.” (hope it's okay to quote)
Because the glasses in the Facebook photo aren’t the same as the ones that Alex found, though they look similar, the question in my mind is whether he would BRING a pair of glasses with him on a hike/climb. If so, and assuming he went on a hike/climb, he had to have more than one pair, because the ones in the Facebook photo were found in his camping gear. The ones that Alex found could be that other pair.
On the other hand, if he would have gone hiking/climbing without bringing any glasses as backup, those could be someone else’s glasses. (If that’s the case, the glasses either don’t have a strong prescription or the person has a backup. I couldn’t get 50 yards without my glasses…)
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tdg119
Social climber
Northampton, PA
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Aug 24, 2013 - 09:57am PT
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Here's Matt's eye RXs from 2-1-13
Glasses:
OD - 2.75 - 0.75 x 175
OS - 2.75 - 1.00 x 005
Contacts:
OD - 8.6 / 14.5 - 2.50 - 0.75 x 180
OS - 8.6 / 14.5 - 2.50 - 1.25 x 180
Acuvue Oasys for Astigmatism
Hope that means something; my eyes are good so it's Greek to me.
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SplitPants
Social climber
LA
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Aug 24, 2013 - 10:20am PT
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Seems great progress is being made!
Cragman,
EXCELLENT point about Rite-Aid
srbphoto -can you help (see MGuzzy comments)
Wish I could have done more with the picture of the glasses.
On another note I took a field trip last night to Rite-Aid around the corner. I lucked out as there was a district manager in the store. Without giving the person any details (as I didn't want to get anyone in trouble) about this situation I asked them how difficult it was to obtain purchase detail and corresponding video. Basically she said not too difficult to obtain the purchase information (my original assumption was correct, they need the date of the transaction, amount and last 4 digits of the card). However, she did say that in store they can't go back more than 30 days. Next I asked her how hard it would be to obtain the video once a date/time/register is knows and she said not too difficult, BUT she did state that the video gets overwritten after a certain amount of time:( She said the overwrite time varies and she didn't know the specific duration.
She indicated that since it has been more than 30 days it may be an issue getting the information directly from the store (especially if the store has resource shortages). She recommended calling the store again and if you cannot get results from the store manager ask for the district manager name and phone number AND she also recommended the following:
-Contact Rite-Aid corporate at 1-800-748-3243 explain the situation and ask them for the name of a corporate contact and get that persons phone AND fax number (likely not in until Monday)
-She said due to Privacy laws they might not release the information (again go back to the local store with a sense of urgency).
-She recommended a family member write a letter summarizing what happened, attach a news article as proof, a copy of Matts ID if available AND most important have the letter notarized (this helps provide proof of family member). She also stated that the letter should firmly request that Rite-Aid retain the data and video from the store (provide the store information in the letter) as it is part of a law enforcement investigation
Then she said what I have thought all along. If Rite-Aid were to receive a warrant they would be forced to comply within a very short period of time (usually 48 hours). Has MLPD sent out any warrants for anything related to information on this case?
I have felt for a while that important information from Rite-Aid, Library and campground registry has been missing. I think the Rite-Aid purchase detail is very important and the video may be useful as well. Someone stated Matts clothes were washed and folded. If we knew what he was wearing at Rite-Aid, plus the clothes that were picked up perhaps his family and close friends from those 2 pieces of information could come to a firm understanding of what exactly Matt would have been wearing on the 17th. Also, the video might show what glasses Matt was wearing (if any).
If possible can the family appoint a Mammoth local to represent the family and Matts interest in Mammoth?
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SplitPants
Social climber
LA
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Aug 24, 2013 - 10:32am PT
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On another note if anyone feels that putting together a detailed timeline and fact sheet would be helpful let me know. I have the time to do this. I could put it in google docs so that it can be updated/edited by family and friends.
Thanks and I hope for the best!
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tdg119
Social climber
Northampton, PA
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Aug 24, 2013 - 10:33am PT
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+1 to Klimmer and Cragmans posts
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tdg119
Social climber
Northampton, PA
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Aug 24, 2013 - 10:35am PT
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Split pants if you do that and manage it THAT WOULD BE AWESOME.
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SplitPants
Social climber
LA
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Aug 24, 2013 - 10:36am PT
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tdg119
Can do. Gonna grab coffee and the start on it. I will use all of the information from these 800+ posts. If there are other places that may have additional information let me know and I will be sure to pull that in as well.
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KellyDoesntClimb
Social climber
Dunwoody, GA
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Aug 24, 2013 - 10:51am PT
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Hey I am an online friend of Tiffany's and fought sleep last night reading all the posts about the eyeglasses, until about 3AM when I gave up. I am pinning places mentioned on a google map and will post a screen shot for all to see. It may already be done but it helps ME being a non-climber and across the USA... Praying for his safe return!
I think my in law's were possibly in the area in July. I will ask.
The area is so beautiful, from what I can see on google!
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LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
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Aug 24, 2013 - 10:53am PT
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The prescription for Matt's glasses indicates serious nearsightedness -- I don't think it's for a pair of reading glasses. Is there a way to find out or approximate the prescription for the glasses that Alex found? I think someone posted that Mammoth Hospital might have equipment for this. Or an optician in Mammoth might be able to do this.
One way short of that to get a little more info about the glasses would be for someone with a known and similar prescription to look through them. I mean, someone who's seriously nearsighted might be able to tell whether glasses that Alex found are a pair of reading glasses, which might imply that they have a very different prescription from the one Tiffany got from the optician.
(The glasses that Alex found don't look super-thick, but you can't really tell from that, because these days they can make glasses fairly thin even if the prescription is strong.)
ETA: Alex says they were thick.
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KellyDoesntClimb
Social climber
Dunwoody, GA
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Aug 24, 2013 - 10:56am PT
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Tiffany I have a lower prescription (as in his eyesight is worse) and would feel LOST without being able to see. He _needed_ contacts or glasses or would have been really disoriented IMHO. I really hope the Rx matches the eyeglasses found.
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SplitPants
Social climber
LA
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Aug 24, 2013 - 11:01am PT
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SplitPants....good on ya!!!!
Cragman> Thanks, but GOOD on you! You are an amazing individual and next time we are an June if I see you in the Tiger Bar we are buying you drinks:)
Tiffany/Ron
Can you tell me what date Matt arrived in Mammoth and what date his car broke down? Thanks
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tdg119
Social climber
Northampton, PA
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Aug 24, 2013 - 11:02am PT
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I called the optometrist to get a feel for hat the RX means in latent terms.
Basically, he said that with glasses he could view an object from 200 feet away. Without glasses, he'd have to be within 20 feet of that same object to see it. And that's in perfect daylight.
Edit: he said he could see arms length, less depending on light.
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Jilli
Trad climber
Livermore, California/ Dunedin NZ
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Aug 24, 2013 - 11:07am PT
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One more thing...
SplitPants-Also has anyone checked Bishop Gear Exchange to see if any of Matts gear is there (long shot, but they have a lot of used gear on consignment there).
La Sportiva Nepal Extreme's. In the Sierra, useful only for steep snow/ice climbs. Nobody would carry them in a pack unless the objective involved the same. Overkill in the Sierra, but if it was his only heavy boot I could see him taking them. Could he have sold them (and the big pack) to raise $$ for car repair? It's always bugged me that he didn't take a mid-sized pack. Who would he have sold them to? Is there a used gear store in Mammoth?
If anyone wants me to get info on what has been sold/consigned at Mammoth Mountaineering Supply & Gear Exchange in Bishop or in Mammoth I can have my bestie look into that since she works there most days a week and can certainly get access to that kind of info in a flash if the exact items are known....
Is this worth a check? (especially since it seems slightly suspicious that tent + stuff was not reported as relating to missing person for an entire week and thats certainly enough time for someone to get a hold of it to make some cash... among other scenarios... it can be a shady place around those parts, no pun intended)
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tdg119
Social climber
Northampton, PA
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Aug 24, 2013 - 11:12am PT
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@Split- his first credit card purchase in mammoth lakes was June 28. User "jeg" is Jill, she was out there and posted most of the info with specific times in her posts. checkout her posts, she has the most accurat info. - Ron
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SplitPants
Social climber
LA
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Aug 24, 2013 - 11:15am PT
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Jilli,
If there is anyway to check the Bishop Gear Exchange to see if any of the "missing" items turned up there it would be helpful. We could cross it off the list of things checked. The consigment book is arranged by name, not by date so in theory they would have to check every page and look at item descriptions by date which would be time consuming. If we could supply them with a detailed list and perhaps pictures it might be helpful IMHO.
FYI to the best of my knowledge used gear is only sold at the exchange in Bishop (not in their Mammoth stores). My husband is a gear ho and if there was a used gear place in Mammoth we would know. There is a disabled sports donation center near the Chart House. We were just in there last Saturday and Sunday and did not see any equipment and/or packs of this nature so I think we can cross that place off the list.
We will be back up next weekend so if need be we can go in their in person and physically check the gear if that would be helpful.
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SplitPants
Social climber
LA
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Aug 24, 2013 - 11:16am PT
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Thanks so much Ron!
Will include this in the document I am creating.
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crankster
Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
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Aug 24, 2013 - 11:22am PT
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REALLY hoping this lead pans out. Once the search area narrows, I'm planning to head down to Mammoth to add a pair of eyes to the effort.
A couple of other things I was thinking about....
THE CAR: Matt had been without his car from July 5th to the day he went missing, about 12 days. For any traveler, this would be a real drag. For someone camping, a REAl drag, with all your possessions in a tent or in the trunk of your car at a repair shop. If you aren't familiar with Mammoth Lakes, it's not really a town in the sense of the word; more a ski resort that grew into a town. It's charm is in it's surroundings, there's no main square to hang out in and it's spread out. Walking from Shady Rest Campground to a trailhead would get old fast. My point is that by the 16th, I think he'd be really happy to get the heck out of there. Jill, John, et al, left on the 7th and he'd be eager to join them - I think that was his plan. It makes sense he'd be staying close to Mammoth Lakes in cell phone range so he could talk to the repair shop. I know I would.
I've been advocating the Ritter/Banner area as his likely destination mainly due to the missing gear. That's still is a mystery that needs to be solved to fit the Inyo Craters scenario. Could the gear have been stolen while he was missing and he didn't really have it with him?
BIKE: If I was stranded in Mammoth Lakes for almost 2 weeks, I'd rent a bike to get around. It's a huge biking community. Bike shops would have records of rentals. Have they been checked?
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x1n54n3x
Boulder climber
mammoth lakes
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Aug 24, 2013 - 11:23am PT
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LAhiker-The prescription for Matt's glasses indicates serious nearsightedness -- I don't think it's for a pair of reading glasses. Is there a way to find out or approximate the prescription for the glasses that Alex found? I think someone posted that Mammoth Hospital might have equipment for this. Or an optician in Mammoth might be able to do this.
One way short of that to get a little more info about the glasses would be for someone with a known and similar prescription to look through them. I mean, someone who's seriously nearsighted might be able to tell whether glasses that Alex found are a pair of reading glasses, which might imply that they have a very different prescription from the one Tiffany got from the optician.
(The glasses that Alex found don't look super-thick, but you can't really tell from that, because these days they can make glasses fairly thin even if the prescription is strong.)
As I've already turned the glasses in, I cannot verify 100% that they matched Matt's prescription, however, they were thick. I looked through the lenses and was completely disoriented- I have 20-20 vision and that leads me to believe that the person who lost these could not see very efficiently, if at all, without them. It wouldn't surprise me that the person missing those glasses became very disoriented out at the crater and became lost or worse, injured in a fall, etc. Also, like I mentioned, there are two trails that lead back to the parking lot- it can get confusing if you take the wrong one and try to compensate by bushwhacking in the direction you think may be necessary- I've had to do this before as well, though I have two perfectly good eyes. Other than the two hiking trials to the craters, there are probably several hundreds of miles of ORV trails that lead anywhere from back to the scenic loop, to June Lake or even the San Joaquin drainage behind both Mammoth and June Mountain.
All I'm saying- those glasses seemed integral to the owners ability to see, and that there is a maze of trails out there, that all look alike and curve every which way for miles and miles.
I once found a man out of shady rest (east, past the pay-camp sites) while driving my Jeep around after work, who was completely disoriented with his dog, and could not for the life of him find his camp site. Temperatures were dropping below freezing and night was closing in so I offered to drive him around for about half hour to 45 minutes until we found his site. He was a local camping for the spring/summer to save rent money up and he was not intoxicated. A local, about 3-4 miles north of shady rest park, could not find his camp site and was panicking enough to take me up on the offer to help him find his site.
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tdg119
Social climber
Northampton, PA
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Aug 24, 2013 - 11:28am PT
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Matt's credit card statement.
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Jilli
Trad climber
Livermore, California/ Dunedin NZ
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Aug 24, 2013 - 11:32am PT
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@SplitPants,
Definitely a fine task for ALexandra since it's a pretty slow place to work at times! She works at the gear exchange in Bishop and I think also at the shop in the village (Mammoth) lately... she merges between the two. Super friendly dreadhead climber, happy disposition, you probably know her if you frequent the place. Also Trevor could be a great source since he is a big part of that shop (Bishop).
Yes, detailed list and pics would be needed... i'll search for it but this could take some time. Let ya know after i get some sleeps (wayyyy late here, good on' Saturday night on the Taco). I will call my contact tomorrow and see about the boots at least. Then like you say, checked off the list, peace of mind. -Jillli
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x1n54n3x
Boulder climber
mammoth lakes
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Aug 24, 2013 - 11:34am PT
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$152 from Norco Service Center- I KNOW a blown head gasket is more expensive than that to have a shop fix- did they just not charge the rest?
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LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
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Aug 24, 2013 - 11:34am PT
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Alex, thanks for the clarification!
Yes, if the glasses were in fact thick, and if you with your 20-20 vision looked through them and went "Whoa!" then that would definitely imply that they are for someone seriously nearsighted such as Matt.
Of course, if Matt had his contacts on he wouldn't have needed his glasses and would not have become disoriented if they were lost. But if, as Adam Faller says, Matt was having problems with his contacts, he could have been wearing the glasses instead, and then losing them would have put him in a bad situation.
I hope the police or someone else can quickly get the Rx on the glasses you found!
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monolith
climber
SF bay area
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Aug 24, 2013 - 11:37am PT
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Alex, the shop first tried changing the thermistat, twice possibly. That would account for the $152.
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tdg119
Social climber
Northampton, PA
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Aug 24, 2013 - 11:38am PT
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+1 Alex, "they were thick" we need the police to get the glasses checked.
For the head gasket, we paid for that. It was 2700$, Matt was gone by the time the car was totally fixed. he had multiple problems with it and was back and forth into the shop for different repairs. -Ron
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x1n54n3x
Boulder climber
mammoth lakes
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Aug 24, 2013 - 11:42am PT
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Monolith, Ron, Cragman
Alex, the shop first tried changing the thermistat, twice possibly. That would account for the $152. Thanks for the clarification on that charge.
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LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
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Aug 24, 2013 - 11:42am PT
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Randisi, Matt also had contacts and apparently that's what he usually wore, especially when hiking/climbing. But people close to him say that he'd been having problems with the contacts and hence might have been wearing his glasses more than usual.
Yes, the glasses that Alex found are different from the ones in the Facebook photo. But apparently Matt had more than one pair of glasses and always got ones in a similar style.
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tdg119
Social climber
Northampton, PA
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Aug 24, 2013 - 11:47am PT
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@rand- Matt had many glasses over the years. They change over the years when looking at his pictures but the basic style remains the same. These may not be the exact glasses in that photo. The was an older photo, could be new glasses, back up pair, lighting, camera angle play a part in photos, age, worn out, who knows....the question is how common is this style? How likely is it a similar style is found that matches Matt style? Are the scripts the same or close? Are the scripts a 100% match to Matt's- if so, it's a no brainier. His script is not common. Won't address the dream, psychic stuff. - Ron
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SplitPants
Social climber
LA
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Aug 24, 2013 - 11:54am PT
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Jilli,
My husband just realized his counsins are enroute to Mammoth right now. He has texted them asking if they would be willing to stop at the gear exchange and look through the used items. If they agree is there anyway you or someone can post a list of "missing" items along with pictures? If so I can coordinate passing this along and getting them to stop at the exchange. We are waiting to hear back from them now (they are on the 395 with spotty cell reception in Mojave now).
Would be nice to check this and knock it off our list of things researched!
[EDIT] His counsin(s) have not left yet! They are leaving at 11:30. If anyone can get me a list of missing gear along with pictures they would be willing to stop at the gear exchange in Bishop. It closes at 7PM.
I would need the list and pictures by 11am Pacific Time. Let me know if this is possible. Thanks
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LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
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Aug 24, 2013 - 11:58am PT
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Tioga, from what I see online it sounds like contact lens prescriptions are different from eyeglass prescriptions:
http://www.aclens.com/prescriptionhelp.asp
Though the prescription that Tiffany got from Matt's optician is organized a bit differently from the examples in the link, which start with a smaller number Power/SPH.
In any event, the big question as far as I can tell is whether the Rx for the glasses Alex found matches Matt's.
Ron, do you know whether the police are checking into that, or whether due to their short-handedness they would want/permit a private citizen to do so. (I noticed that Mammoth Police Chief Watson posted on FB late last night that you guys should call him about the glasses.)
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tdg119
Social climber
Northampton, PA
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Aug 24, 2013 - 11:59am PT
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Also, Matt was a teacher which means his finger prints need to be on file for background checks. I wonder if the MLPD can pull prints after this long? - Ron
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monolith
climber
SF bay area
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Aug 24, 2013 - 12:04pm PT
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As for thickness of lens, it's hard to tell. My rx is nearly twice as bad as Matt's glasses, but my lenses are thin. I paid extra for 'high index' lenses which means they can be made much thinner and lighter.
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Jilli
Trad climber
Livermore, California/ Dunedin NZ
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Aug 24, 2013 - 12:07pm PT
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@SplitPants, i will PM
but it would probably be easier to just get an employee friend (aka my friend Alexandra or Trevor) to look through the stock since those are easy items to search for... and more importantly look through records. i am contacting her soon, CHeers.
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LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
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Aug 24, 2013 - 12:12pm PT
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Tioga, good points, but consider the following:
1. Alex subsequently said the glasses he found were actually thick.
2. Here's Matt's prescription again, as posted by Ron:
Glasses:
OD - 2.75 - 0.75 x 175
OS - 2.75 - 1.00 x 005
Contacts:
OD - 8.6 / 14.5 - 2.50 - 0.75 x 180
OS - 8.6 / 14.5 - 2.50 - 1.25 x 180
Acuvue Oasys for Astigmatism
For the contacts, could the 8.6 indicate the base curve and the -2.50 indicate the power, as in the link below? That would fit with the glasses prescription -- the organization of the numbers might be different.
http://www.aclens.com/prescriptionhelp.asp
Even if the glasses prescription correctly represents Matt's vision, that still makes him quite nearsighted.
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LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
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Aug 24, 2013 - 12:21pm PT
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Tioga, true, unless some of those minus signs are actually hyphens, which admittedly makes things very confusing.
I understand that you mean that using the usual conventions, the prescription for Matt's contacts implies extreme nearsightedness and that the glasses with the -2.75 power would only be for wearing around the house or looking at a computer screen or something. (Um, unless he was using them to read all those pages he took out of the guidebook...)
In any event, it would be great to know whether the prescription for the glasses Alex found matches the one for Matt's glasses...
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Jilli
Trad climber
Livermore, California/ Dunedin NZ
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Aug 24, 2013 - 12:24pm PT
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tdg119 or jeg,
What about the rest of the gear which he supposedly had with him on this day mission?
Mountain Hardwear South Col 70liter
La Sportiva Nepal Extreme's - yellow? size?
axes?
crampons?
I will call my friend and have her check it out as soon as I have the specifics (scouring the page as we speak... there are many posts)
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michelle0607
climber
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Aug 24, 2013 - 12:36pm PT
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Hi, I have been following this for a while. Matt teaches in an area of PA near my home town. For all of those searching, please be safe and THANK YOU.
Prior to my Lasik surgery, I was about the same prescription as Matt. I felt comfortable going from about the bed to the shower without my glasses so I feel He would surely need them to navigate.
At the time of my surgery, I owned 5 pairs of glasses. One high quality pair that I wore to work every day, an older backup prescription pair in my car just in case, a really old one that was barely passable for the sandy beach, one pair of prescription sunglasses, and one pair of regular sunglasses (for when I used my contacts). So, I don't think it is unreasonable that he may have had two or possibly many more pairs. Anything + or - 0.25 (and possibly up to 0.5) from his -2.5/-2.75 should be considered something he could have wore. I also had a slightly different prescription (off by 0.25) for my contacts.
Question 1 - Someone up thread mentioned that he used a strap with his sunglasses. Do you know if they were prescription or worn over his contacts? Were they in his personal belongings? I ask for two reasons 1) if he wore prescription sunglasses he may not have known immediately that the regular ones were missing if it was during the daylight hours. This would make backtracking and finding them almost impossible. and 2) Taking sunglasses with implies an intent to travel in the day light hours. In an emergency, I would absolutely leave them behind and grab my cell/wallet.
Question 2 (for Tiff/Ron) - do you have access to past bank statements or health insurance paperwork in his house? Possibly a search of them would reveal any purchases at other eye stores. I know my prescription in that range was always several hundred dollars that my insurance explanation of benefits includes the specific brand/model of glasses for other members of my household. Also, the $16 could have been partly a prescription co-pay which would likely show up on the insurance paperwork as well.
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kenish
climber
Orange County, CA
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Aug 24, 2013 - 12:51pm PT
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There's a CC charge at Chevron a few days after the $152 charge at Norco. That implies the Subaru had work done and was running well enough to fill up the tank. It's about 11 gallons based on local gas prices. Notice other charges in previous weeks that look like gas..most are in the $45 range so the Chevron charge seems to fit his fill-up pattern and habit.
Sales tax in Mammoth Lakes is 8%; the last Rite-Aid charge works back to an odd price. Probably a mix of taxable and non-taxable items. The last 2 Rite-Aid charges are roughly the price of non-Rx glasses; of course it could be a zillion other items too.
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this just in
climber
north fork
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Aug 24, 2013 - 01:12pm PT
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Everytime I've found lost gear on a trail, I leave it in an easily noticeable spot right by where I find it. So good chance those glasses were found in the immediate vicinity of that sign. The chums imply they were around the owners neck when not on his/her face, it would be valuable to know how they were found, if the chums were secure or if one was on and one off. I guess confirming the glasses are Matt's is the best starting point. Some interesting dreams and coincidences.
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michelle0607
climber
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Aug 24, 2013 - 01:20pm PT
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First, I want to say that I do not know the area or the shuttles or any possibility of public transportation.
But when I saw the picture of the pack he was carrying as his gear, my first instinct was "wow that's a big pack if he's going around town". I live in the southeast so I am obviously not used to carrying boots, crampons, etc. With a full day of food and water plus the gear for a day of climbing, I can see the need for a larger pack, I guess.
And then I remembered a time when I found myself in a large city suddenly without a car. It was challenging to get food a few miles back to your house when you are a temporary resident on foot. I didn't have one of those grocery carts to push home, so I carried my pack to the grocery store (with my laptop inside because the neighborhood wasn't so awesome). I added the groceries to the pack and walked back.
IF he did take his pack and IF he did not go to an area of snow, perhaps he planned to have extra space in the pack to carry a purchase that he made using cash. If he had a long road trip coming up on the 18th, that may have been some food supplies.
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
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Aug 24, 2013 - 01:21pm PT
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a couple of points to add:
my glasses prescription is similar to Matt's, and i use several pairs of glasses
he wouldn't normally be not wearing them, unless a spare pair
i lost a pair of high index titanium frame glasses on the summit of El Cap a year ago...a minor disaster...didn't stop me from making it back to the car for a spare pair
i also wore contacts for years, particularly for convenience while climbing...eventually gave up on them...
i also have several pair of plastic double boots for ice climbing and randonee climbing/skiing
it is not unusual to go for a little day hike with those big boots, just to tune up fit and comfort and sock combinations and get used to climbing in them...they are generally very poor for rock climbing...
not unusual to also be playing around with ice axe and crampons for the same reason (even far from snow and ice)
(which is why i wear La Sportiva Trangos most of the time in the mountains...the only boots i've found to hold a crampon well and yet still be pretty good for rock climbing...)
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fluffy
Trad climber
Colorado
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Aug 24, 2013 - 01:21pm PT
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sometimes I'll carry a lost item back to the trailhead especially if it looks like it would be hard for someone else to find, or if it's valuable, fragile (e.g. glasses), or showing signs of being out there awhile. seems like a lot of other people around here do that as well, so the kiosks at trailheads end up being a de facto lost and found.
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Heyzeus
climber
Hollywood,Ca
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Aug 24, 2013 - 01:23pm PT
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KellyDoesntClimb- I think your map is wrong. The craters in question are close to the towm of Mammoth, on the scenic loop road. The craters that you have marked on the map are different craters I think. But the locals on here should know for sure.
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kenish
climber
Orange County, CA
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Aug 24, 2013 - 01:37pm PT
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Due to the car repairs, it sounds like Matt had not used or needed the large pack, crampons, etc. in awhile. Since his car was almost ready and he was catching up to friends in CO, would he need that equipment? Could he have gone on a "shakedown" hike to make sure everything packed OK, check the equipment, and to stay in a good physical and mental state? (I go stir crazy if I don't get on the mountain bike every few days).
@kelly- Thanks for the maps. The cell phone traces posted in the past few days show that Matt uses Verizon. It shows a cell site (which I've seen)on the peak of Mammoth Mountain, but isn't on the map. Another tower is in town, according to the trace.
I noticed the map doesn't have Verizon selected. A specific cell site (or tower) may be used by only one carrier, or by several. "Footprints" for each carrier are different. An update to the map may be good...apologies if you're aware of all this and the map is accurate to VZW. General FYI, VZW coverage around town and the mountain is quite good.
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crusher
climber
Santa Monica, CA
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Aug 24, 2013 - 01:59pm PT
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Wow, a lot of stuff going on since I was last able to check in.
First and foremost the found glasses have to get to an optician to see what the prescription is and if it's close to Matt's. It doesn't look like Matt's glasses prescription was for progressive lenses (correct me if I'm wrong), so they need to see what these "found" lenses are. Progressives today don't have the lines in them anymore like older bi or trifocals.
A bit more on glasses/contacts. I don't think Matt's contact prescription is -8.6, that number should refer to his astigmatism (diopter number, etc.). Looks like his refraction (nearsightedness) is -2.5 which is not severe. For example, my refraction number is -6.75 in one eye and -7.5 in the other. I am literally blind as a bat. Also, I have glasses for when my contacts are bothering me and yes, they're expensive so one does wind up with many pair - extras, you keep the old ones as back ups and so on. Point being that he could have in his possession various pairs with a range of powers - up or down by half or a whole point (or more) - Matt is still young and his eyes are probably still changing. Just blathering here but if these found glasses are within a half a point or point of Matt's last prescription they could be an extra pair of his. I'm not sure how that can be confirmed unless his optician has record of him ordering that particular make and model. And there might be no record with is optician - you can buy prescription glasses off internet sites.
Tiffany - does Matt have VSP or other insurance for vision/glasses? Cross checking what glasses has gotten through his vision insurance could help here too.
Another question - where does the shuttle bus down to Devil's Postpile (this is the shuttle Matt would have taken to go down to the trailheads for the Minarets, for those of you unfamiliar with the area) pick up and drop off at the entrance booth - is it right at the booth near Minaret lookout? Are there ANY security cameras or webcams that capture this area and may show people getting on or off the shuttles?
The Rite Aid lag sounds like BS to me. Retail stores are computerized - I find it really hard to believe that they couldn't pull up Matt's receipt immediately with the date of purchase and his cc number. I also find it hard to believe that someone in the store didn't immediately call their District Manager to get in there and look at the store video - the police should have done this right away - who cares of the store manager is on vacation - retailers have a line of management from local store manager to DM to Regional Manager and on up the ranks. Seems like a real lack of urgency there. Sorry, I'm sounding pissed off now, but I guess I am!
Edit - re. contact prescriptions - The "8" numbers usually refer to the Base Curve. The "13/14" numbers usually refer to the Diameter.
I sort of doubt the Fumaroles or gas, this time of the year, are an issue unless there are some enclosed, deep chasm type vents around in the ground (are there?) that someone could fall into - ex. the ski patrollers who died fell into a fumarole chasm in the snow with no oxygen on a big (deep) snow year.
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SplitPants
Social climber
LA
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Aug 24, 2013 - 02:34pm PT
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Cragman
You are simply FABULOUS!
Is anyone working with management at Rite-Aid to obtain the purchase detail and video?
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Aug 24, 2013 - 02:39pm PT
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I want to correct a slightly misleading earlier statement.
The distance from Mammoth Town (the T at the West end of Town) to Inyo Crater Lakes is nearly 5 miles by road and the direct trail from road to lakes.
It's 3 1/4 miles as the crow flies.
I don't know if there's a shortcut trail but it would have to be at least 4 miles.
The distance from the loop road to the Lakes is nearly a mile.
(Google Earth distances)
Therefore it's at least an hour's walk from town to the lakes.
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tdg119
Social climber
Northampton, PA
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Aug 24, 2013 - 03:17pm PT
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We just got back from Matts house and went through his stuff again. I found a recent picture of him wearing different glasses.
They appear to have have a bronzish/black gap between the lenses and black around the glass on the top.
~ Ron
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tdg119
Social climber
Northampton, PA
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Aug 24, 2013 - 03:27pm PT
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PS, checked shoe sizes while there. His other hiking shoes were all size 11.5-12.
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LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
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Aug 24, 2013 - 04:24pm PT
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I’m glad Cragman is feeling better now. Is there any way that the prescription for the glasses Alex found can be tested TODAY, before Cragman and a partner go on a possibly dangerous search tomorrow? I realize that those glasses are now with the Mammoth police, who are busy and overstretched...
While the glasses that Alex found don't exactly match either the ones on the Facebook page or the ones in the picture that Ron just posted, I agree with the Tioga that they look like they could be part of the same family of styles that one person might get. In fact, aside from the difference in the earpieces, to me they look more similar in shape to the ones in the spiffy picture from December than to the ones in the Facebook picture.
They could indeed be an older pair, used as backups for contacts for camping/climbing. I find it odd that the glasses themselves appeared to be more scuffed up than the Chums holding them. I mean, maybe they got scuffed in whatever incident caused them to get lost -- Cragman had some interesting speculations.
But they also could have already been a bit old and battered before the newer Chums were used to keep them on. Or whoever picked them up could have brushed the dust out of the Chums before hanging the glasses on the sign. I wonder -- might any of Matt's climbing partners remember those particular glasses?
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kenish
climber
Orange County, CA
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Aug 24, 2013 - 04:41pm PT
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@kelly- great map! As someone mentioned you had the wrong Inyo Crater, so I put in the right one, added Vons, and moved Rite-Aid about a block.
Someone should add the location of the trail sign where the glasses were hanging.
The hospital is a block from the police station and can probably "read" the glasses prescription. The glasses are evidence but important to confirm whether they're relevant or a red herring.
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tdg119
Social climber
Northampton, PA
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Aug 24, 2013 - 04:46pm PT
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Can you guys call the local pd and see what they are doing with the glasses? I think we all agree this a strong lead. If the rx matches Matt's or is 90% close, is that enough to start a formal search? Is it enough evidence to drag the lake? Should we focus our search on these trails. You guys know the area, what do you suggest? - Ron
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kenish
Gym climber
Orange County, CA
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Aug 24, 2013 - 05:10pm PT
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The police station is a block from the hospital, where the glasses prescription can probably be "read". Since they're evidence and the PD is probably running on a skeleton staff (Saturday and the city is in bankrupcy), could someone at the hospital or a local optometrist do it at the police station? Not sure what's required....
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x1n54n3x
Boulder climber
mammoth lakes
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Aug 24, 2013 - 05:10pm PT
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Cragman, where did they find the belt? Which sketchy location? I was out with two others and 2 dogs- we checked all three craters, found a some trash (gatorade bottle, water bottle, some old beer cans and a single child's shoe)- nothing that seemed like it would pertain to Matt. We were out from about 8:40 until 12:30. The two I was with agreed on the rockfall that I had pointed out in that it looked more recent that the rest of the crater.
Note: The craters themselves are only 550-650 years old. This is VERY young in terms of a geologic time scale- it is tough to determine what is old and what is new rockfall.
We could not figure out how a slide would be propagated to a degree that someone may have been buried, though we agreed that recent storms could have contributed to later erosion, crumbling/breakage and subsequent burial had a serious injury or partial burial taken place before.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Aug 24, 2013 - 05:12pm PT
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A couple of days ago there was discussion about why Verizon can't give you the location of Matt's cellphone when he sent a text message.
I was skeptical that this couldn't be done so asked a friend of mine who's a top level engineer at the company that makes most of the cell phone communications chips.
He had to ask a colleague and here is the response:
Hmm – Difficult to say. Verizon are a very savvy company, so I have to assume that this limitation is real Basically, at the technical implementation level, it's an optional part of the standard. e.g. Verizon could optionally implement this feature in their hardware/software, but likely haven't.
He followed this up with a good technical explanation of why this is so.
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LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
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Aug 24, 2013 - 05:17pm PT
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Ron, I'm not local so I don't know the answers to your questions. Nor do I know which of you is “Find Matthew Greene” on FB (you and Tiffany?) or who in your core group is in Mammoth.
But I notice that last night, at the end of the top FB thread under the “Texas Roadhouse” flyer post, Police Chief Dan Watson said that “Find Matthew Greene” should call him about the glasses -- he gave his phone number and everything. Was that done?
It does seem to me that "reading" that prescription is a first step, and if y'all haven't called him yet, his asking you to do so would provide a perfect opening to ask him whether (assuming the police haven't had the prescription read already), people in the area can help get that done.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Aug 24, 2013 - 05:22pm PT
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As someone who wears them, I can say no one wants to part with Rx glasses, ever. You lose a pair occasionally switching to sunglasses, but in those instances you usually lose them in a case. Losing Rx glasses out of the case? Highly unusual I should think.
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x1n54n3x
Boulder climber
mammoth lakes
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Aug 24, 2013 - 05:25pm PT
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Officer Hugelman requested that I send him the images I took upon discovering the glasses- here is a copy of the email I just sent him:
"
Hello- I was the individual who found what many believe are the potential glasses belonging to missing person, Matthew Greene. I've attached the photos I took upon discovery, as requested.
I would like to direct you, as well as Detective Hornbeck to a page in the SuperTopo Climbing forum- here you can find Matt's prescription details, and perhaps see if the glasses I found are similar or match.
Here is a copy/paste of the post from Ron, Matt's brother in law:
Aug 24, 2013 - 06:57am PT
Here's Matt's eye RXs from 2-1-13
Glasses:
OD - 2.75 - 0.75 x 175
OS - 2.75 - 1.00 x 005
Contacts:
OD - 8.6 / 14.5 - 2.50 - 0.75 x 180
OS - 8.6 / 14.5 - 2.50 - 1.25 x 180
Acuvue Oasys for Astigmatism
Hope that means something; my eyes are good so it's Greek to me.
Let me know if there is anything else you need from me.
Thanks,
Alex Xxxxxx
xxx-xxx-xxxx
"
Essentially I've relayed Matt's Rx info, hoping to expedite that process. We'll see what comes of it.
@Cragman, thanks, I'm interested to know.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
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Aug 24, 2013 - 05:47pm PT
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Is the Google map ^above^ with location pins and the blue pin for found (Matt's?) glasses located by Alex?
If not could Alex put a pin on the map exactly where he came upon the glasses? You can use the satellite view button and zoom in up-close to pin-point the location. I think that would help a great deal.
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x1n54n3x
Boulder climber
mammoth lakes
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Aug 24, 2013 - 05:58pm PT
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I added the EXACT location of where I found the glasses.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
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Aug 24, 2013 - 06:12pm PT
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Alex thanks :-)
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tdg119
Social climber
Northampton, PA
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Aug 24, 2013 - 06:30pm PT
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Ok, so we have a belt and a very high probability of Matt's glasses found. Clearly, we are on to something. If we are going to find our " needle, " this is the best we got. You guys have come so far, done so much, lets finish this and the beers are on me! -Ron
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LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
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Aug 24, 2013 - 06:43pm PT
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Ron, not to be a nudge, but have you or others in your core group been able to get back to Chief Watson or to ask others in the police station about testing the prescription of the glasses that Alex found? I know Alex sent the prescription to Officer Hugelman, but some follow-up might help move things along.
Regarding the belt, does such a belt strike you or others as something Matt might have? I gather that climbers wear racks -- not sure what they're made of but they don't look like regular belts. And in any event most of Matt's climbing stuff was back with the camping gear. Not sure what sort of belt people wear when they're going hiking in snow/ice. (ETA, I'm told a climber's rack isn't like a belt at all...)
As for hikers, when we wear belts at all, we tend to favor nylon belts with plastic buckles, so as not to weigh us down or interfere with our packs. A thick belt + a pack can be very irritating. So maybe the belt belongs to someone else?
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
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Aug 24, 2013 - 06:52pm PT
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Alex,
Are the glasses just really dusty/dirty? Are they heavily scratched up?
I don't know, but if they are Matt's, and they just fell out of a pack or accidentally dropped to the ground without him noticing, why are they so messy looking? I know its been more than a month since he went missing.
If someone found them close to the time he went missing, then they've been hanging on the trail sign for a month or more? Or did the glasses just recently show up? Doesn't the FS Rangers drive the roads and occasionally check the trail-heads? How long have those glasses been hanging there? Has someone recently hiked the same trail within the last few days besides Alex? A week ago? 2 weeks ago? And so on. Were the glasses still hanging there then at the trail-head?
Maybe talking to the FS office/visitor center there in Mammoth might help. Maybe people have noticed that the glasses have been hanging there a while or not?
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tdg119
Social climber
Northampton, PA
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Aug 24, 2013 - 06:53pm PT
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I tried calling and left a vm. It says their office hours are Monday to Friday. My only option is to call 911 and I don't want to do that - Ron
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LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
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Aug 24, 2013 - 06:59pm PT
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Ron, that makes sense. Did you call the number that Chief Watson left in the Facebook post -- was that where you left the VM?
10b4me, thanks for the clarification. Are climbers also not usually into regular belts, or is that just us hikers?
Cragman -- your son has sharp eyes...
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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Aug 24, 2013 - 07:07pm PT
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Good instincts on your sons part Dean, but judging by the age/ style of belt, it seems unlikely to be relevant.
Strong work, and sharp eyes though!
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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Aug 24, 2013 - 07:17pm PT
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If that were the case CC's would most likely have been used by now, IMO. He had a wallet with him, right?
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
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Aug 24, 2013 - 07:28pm PT
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this lake doesn't appear so large and deep as in the earlier photo...searching it should not require the sort of resources i mentioned above
we can still provide help on this if needed
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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Aug 24, 2013 - 07:33pm PT
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I understand that there are bad people everywhere, and a lot of sketch balls fall off the face of the earth on the eastside. I remember that you've had firsthand experience with sketchy people who you trusted.
That said, the criminal element seems highly unlikely to me. It doesn't hurt to cover all the bases though.
I'm hoping for a timely resolution. People need closure, and it breaks my heart that they don't have that yet.
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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Aug 24, 2013 - 07:41pm PT
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If I weren't on the east coast I'd be there to join you in a heartbeat. Good luck.
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Dan Watson
climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Aug 24, 2013 - 08:16pm PT
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I've compared the glasses to the close up of the photo of Matt wearing the glasses. They are similar, but do not look the same. But as others have commented, he may have had more than one similar pair. The glasses are dirty and one lense is scratched. We have not located the person who found them and placed them on the trail marker at Inyo Craters. Now that we have the prescription, we will work on getting the glasses inspected to see if they are the same or similar. This might take until Monday if or local hospital doesn't have the ability to do so. Once that information is known, we'll have a better idea whether these were his glasses. Mono SAR is current on all the latest information and is monitoring this thread regularly.
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LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
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Aug 24, 2013 - 08:20pm PT
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Thanks for the update, Chief Watson!
And thanks to Cragman for going out again. I hope you're not going alone. Please stay safe!
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tdg119
Social climber
Northampton, PA
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Aug 24, 2013 - 08:29pm PT
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Thank you Chief Dan! @ Cragman, I don't know what to say. I have a herniated disk in my c7, I know the pain it causes and for you to go out there with an injured c5 speaks so much to your strength and character. "If I have seen bigger men, it was only because I was standing on the shoulders of giants" -Ron
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SplitPants
Social climber
LA
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Aug 24, 2013 - 08:37pm PT
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I will have the compiled document done in about 2 more hours. The first draft is in MS Word (google doc is not user friendly). Once I get feedback/corrections I can convert over to google docs.
If anyone wants this document feel free to send me a PM. I will post to the forum when the first draft is ready.
Thx
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x1n54n3x
Boulder climber
mammoth lakes
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Aug 24, 2013 - 09:46pm PT
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Well, I was going to say I haven't heard back from that email yet, but Dan has just confirmed that they have the info I sent and are working on it. I'm headed out of town tomorrow afternoon, but I'll be on here pretty regularly.
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tdg119
Social climber
Northampton, PA
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Aug 24, 2013 - 09:51pm PT
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Side note: finally managed some national news coverage (AP, ABC, MSN, FOX, with others on the horizon). Hopefully someone will come forward that talked to Matt and can help provide more leads.
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tdg119
Social climber
Northampton, PA
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Aug 24, 2013 - 10:02pm PT
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I debated posting this, worried it'd be construed wrong, but decided to. When searching Matt's house, there was a notebook. Amongst it were some half scribbled notes that were started but not finished (with the exception of one I found regarding a guide book exchange; found both draft and full letter on that one.)
This one is straightforward. What I don't know is his habits with this note. Still, in my mind, it seems important he's thought it out if nothing else. I see it as something he'd leave on/in his car or campsite if planning something long and/or dangerous.
Just more speculation, I know, but I felt compelled to share.
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Crazy Bat
Sport climber
Birmingham, AL & Seweanee, TN
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Aug 24, 2013 - 11:11pm PT
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I am nearsighted in one eye and farsighted in the other. Because of that I now know that correction of nearsightedness causes items seen through the lens to appear smaller. I sure looks like those glasses are for nearsightedness. Look at the thumb on the left.
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SplitPants
Social climber
LA
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Aug 24, 2013 - 11:32pm PT
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All,
I have completed a document that contains the following:
-PICTURES
-PHYSICAL DESCRIPTION & GEAR/EQUIPMENT
-MATTS KNOWN HABITS & PERSONAL CHARACTERISTICS
-EXPERIENCE
-CHRONOLOGICAL TIMELINE
-ADDITIONAL FACTS/INFORMATION
-OPEN ISSUES / ITEMS THAT NEED IMMEDIATE ATTENTION
I culled the information for this document from the 800+ posts on this forum. I did my best to correct items when Matt's family/friends provided clarifications.
I am working on the second portion of the document. This portion will contain a listing of local points of interest (trails etc..) and the peaks, passes and trails from the pages Matt took out of the secor book. Then within this information if we know certain areas were searched, registers signed or not signed etc...I will put that information in as well (and also list areas Matt previously visited). This part of the document is going to take me a little bit of time as I am struggling with the best way to organize the information so it is easy to read, understand and update.
I currently have the document in MS Word 2007. I can also create it in a PDF. IF you would like a copy of this document please send me a PM. Once I have completed the document I am going to try to convert it to a google doc so we can crowd source the updates (google docs is not as user friendly as MS Word). Until then you can PM me any changes/clarifications/ommissions etc.... Also feel free to suggest changes (I have thick skin and wont be offended).
Tx and godspeed to cragman and his companion tomorrow
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SplitPants
Social climber
LA
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Aug 24, 2013 - 11:52pm PT
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Question to Matt's Family/Friends:
Do you know the model and brand of the ice axe and crampons he had (assumed using based on the fact that the items were missing from his car and campsite)?
Please let me know so I can add the information to the timeline document.
Thx
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Srbphoto
climber
Kennewick wa
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Aug 24, 2013 - 11:54pm PT
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Splitpants - Definitely save as a PDF (keep a copy as Word for you so you can edit and update easily). Pretty much anyone will be able to view it. No worries about compatibility with the document program or OS.
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Todd Quinn
Trad climber
Oceanside, CA
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Aug 24, 2013 - 11:58pm PT
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Great find on the belt, Looking at the details is what it's all about. I try to look for details in the pages Matt ripped out of his guide book, The High Sierra third edition by R.J. Secor. I understand he took out chapter 12 right out of the book. Please correct me if am wrong if any one has better facts my intention is not to mislead. But we all climb here and we all have to put together the information before we start a climb. R.J. Secor wrote about Mount Ritter with excitement and the sequences of trails start and end in the pages taken. Ice axes and crampons are mention as required gear. Furthermore, the gear he selected suggest he was out for day. The Mountain Hardware pack SoCo model 70 litter is completely interchangeable you can take off the top and hip belt. The side has the best compression straps. The pack has no reflective qualities to it. So Matt loaded the bag for speed he had room to bring other gear. All suggest his destination was a day hike away.
I keep profiling Matt as a climber from PA not someone who knows everything about the area. What would help me is to determine where he started? Match the start location to the pages taken out of the book, only assume day hike no further. Matt would have had to factor the walk back into town. The area leading back from where he started interest me. Mainly because it would have been dark. Keep charging everyone!
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SplitPants
Social climber
LA
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Aug 24, 2013 - 11:59pm PT
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Srbphoto
Thanks will do!
Definitely save as a PDF (keep a copy as Word for you so you can edit and update easily). Pretty much anyone will be able to view it. No worries about compatibility with the document program or OS.
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Srbphoto
climber
Kennewick wa
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Aug 25, 2013 - 12:11am PT
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WOW, I just went over to Yahoo and the first thing that pops up is Matt's picture and it's the first story on their list. I know someone mentioned this up thread but it kind of shocked me looking into his eyes (and I have never met him).
This will really help bring attention to people who were in the area but are not climbers.
To everyone in the field searching - stay safe and good luck.
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ß Î Ø T Ç H
Boulder climber
extraordinaire
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Aug 25, 2013 - 12:20am PT
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R.J. Secor wrote about Mount Ritter with excitement and the sequences of trails start and end in the pages taken. Ice axes and crampons are mention as required gear. Furthermore, the gear he selected suggest he was out for day. Someone not relying on the shuttlebus could drive thier car into the area pre-dawn or whatever (not in his case) to do Ritter etc in a day, but even that is fairly rare. Most ascents include a convenient bivy @ Ediza or Catherine Lakes.
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KellyDoesntClimb
Social climber
Dunwoody, GA
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Aug 25, 2013 - 12:39am PT
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Looking forward to the document. Feel free to use my map if you want! I can change it to be fully public but then you'd potentially get people screwing around with edits. Control issues anyone?
Wouldn't he have started the day of July 17 at the campground? Perhaps at 3am when his phone was turned on for a moment?
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Srbphoto
climber
Kennewick wa
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Aug 25, 2013 - 12:49am PT
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MGuzzy - I do not work for Rite Aid. I apologize if my post mislead you. I do work for a major retailer so I was voicing frustration over looking up a transaction. I cannot believe it takes this long. Unfortunately, the only person I knew who worked for them no longer does. I have put out the word to my retail connections to see if anyone knows someone who works for them and can help.
Trust me, if I did work for them I would have been on the phone to the GM, DM or anyone else to get any info possible.
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ß Î Ø T Ç H
Boulder climber
extraordinaire
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Aug 25, 2013 - 12:53am PT
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Wouldn't he have started the day of July 17 at the campground? Perhaps at 3am when his phone was turned on for a moment? No way he hiked up and in from Shady Rest (rediculous amount of miles/ elevation gain and loss to even get close to the approach).
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
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Aug 25, 2013 - 01:08am PT
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That doesn't sound good having found the glasses (if they are indeed Matt's) where they are. An isolated location but very near town.
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crankster
Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
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Aug 25, 2013 - 01:20am PT
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I think the police have been saying this for some time. So, not necessarily made after the discovery of the glasses. Still, I haven't heard much substantiating evidence to support this, except the mention of Mt. Lyell as a climbing goal. Mt. Lyell is normally approached from Tuolumne Meadows.
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SalNichols
Big Wall climber
Richmond, CA
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Aug 25, 2013 - 01:31am PT
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If you read Matt's blog, this kid was in incredible shape. He'd knock off 15 miles like most of us knock off a walk to Starbucks, but with less bitching. The problem is, his ability to roam doesn't make the problem easier...except that I noticed that when he was alone, he tended to stay well within his abilities. His writings don't depict him as careless, or an unusual risk taker.
He wasn't on familiar ground, and he historically didn't extend himself. Maybe that's something to consider when trying to narrow the search area.
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SplitPants
Social climber
LA
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Aug 25, 2013 - 01:50am PT
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SalNichols
Can you please tell me where Matt's blog is located? I would love to read:)
Tx
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
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Aug 25, 2013 - 02:01am PT
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Simple physics ...
How to tell if glasses are nearsighted or farsighted
by STEPHANIE CHASTEEN on AUGUST 21, 2008
http://blog.sciencegeekgirl.com/2008/08/21/how-to-tell-if-glasses-are-nearsighted-or-farsighted/
Farsighted vision, convex lense, the image moves out.
Nearsighted vision, concave lense, the image moves in.
Note that the black frame of the eye-glass near the very bottom edge of the lense splits significantly and moves in to the left.
Note also the washer behind the bolt (zoom way in), the outer edge of the washer moves in from a perfect circle.
These eye glasses are for nearsighted vision.
The bottom of my personal progressive lense glasses for reading (bottom portion only) are for nearsighted vision which is slight and they don't move the eye-glass frame in toward the left as much as these found glasses do.
I would say the glasses found are for strong nearsighted vision.
tdg119 said ...
Aug 24, 2013 - 06:57am PT
Here's Matt's eye RXs from 2-1-13
Glasses:
OD - 2.75 - 0.75 x 175
OS - 2.75 - 1.00 x 005
Contacts:
OD - 8.6 / 14.5 - 2.50 - 0.75 x 180
OS - 8.6 / 14.5 - 2.50 - 1.25 x 180
Acuvue Oasys for Astigmatism
Hope that means something; my eyes are good so it's Greek to me.
LAHiker said ...
Aug 24, 2013 - 07:53am PT
The prescription for Matt's glasses indicates serious nearsightedness -- I don't think it's for a pair of reading glasses. Is there a way to find out or approximate the prescription for the glasses that Alex found? I think someone posted that Mammoth Hospital might have equipment for this. Or an optician in Mammoth might be able to do this.
One way short of that to get a little more info about the glasses would be for someone with a known and similar prescription to look through them. I mean, someone who's seriously nearsighted might be able to tell whether glasses that Alex found are a pair of reading glasses, which might imply that they have a very different prescription from the one Tiffany got from the optician.
(The glasses that Alex found don't look super-thick, but you can't really tell from that, because these days they can make glasses fairly thin even if the prescription is strong.)
ETA: Alex says they were thick.
tdg119 said ...
Aug 24, 2013 - 08:02am PT
I called the optometrist to get a feel for hat the RX means in latent terms.
Basically, he said that with glasses he could view an object from 200 feet away. Without glasses, he'd have to be within 20 feet of that same object to see it. And that's in perfect daylight.
Edit: he said he could see arms length, less depending on light.
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SalNichols
Big Wall climber
Richmond, CA
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Aug 25, 2013 - 02:05am PT
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Split pants, apologies s. there's a link to it somewhere in the past 1000 posts, or in crags search TR thread.
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SplitPants
Social climber
LA
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Aug 25, 2013 - 02:14am PT
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All,
If anyone wants/needs a scanned copy of secor chapter 12 (the pages Matt tore out) send me a PM. I scanned a copy.
Thanks
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SplitPants
Social climber
LA
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Aug 25, 2013 - 02:19am PT
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KellyDoesntClimb and/or Teddy and/or mattyj
Is there anyway we can consolidate to one working map? Looks like there are 3 maps going. I only have links to 2 of them:
https://mapsengine.google.com/map/edit?mid=zn3r74pmynOE.kUAGPbbv8mwo
http://caltopo.com/map?id=4J3A
My apologies if this is a stupid question, but my eyes are shot after going through 900 posts today:( I love all of the maps, just think it might be easier if we have one map with a single point of contact that updates the map as new information comes in.
Please let me know your thoughts/ideas. Any help you can supply would be great:)
Tx
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SplitPants
Social climber
LA
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Aug 25, 2013 - 04:03am PT
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Good Morning (actually goodnight for me ha!)
I finished the first draft version of the consolidated document with chronological timeline. One thing that needs to be done that I can't do is to consolidate to a single map. If someone can help with that....well it would be great.
I have the document in MS Word 2007 (can save to a lower version if needed) and a PDF.
If you would like a copy of this document for review please send me a PM and let me know what format(s) you need. I will continue to update the document based on relevant/important posts to the forum. Please feel free to review the document and let me know of any changes and/or omissions or perhaps other ideas for organizing all of the information:)
I also copied and scanned chapter 12 from secor if anyone needs.
[EDIT] Also scanned chapter 11 that covers Mammoth area.
Nite
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Delhi Dog
climber
Good Question...
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Aug 25, 2013 - 11:38am PT
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Me too.
Good luck
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KellyDoesntClimb
Social climber
Dunwoody, GA
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Aug 25, 2013 - 11:51am PT
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My map is public. Anyone can add to it or edit it. I may clean it up due to having control issues, but anything added or edited should stay roughly the same.
EDITED TO ADD: Actually, please email me kellyecastleberry@gmail.com with any edits or suggestions. I may change my mind here in a sec.
I will open those two links and add places that aren't on mine. It may not be finished today though.
https://www.google.com/maps/ms?msid=201100958982639302825.0004e4b67d382d4f35fd4&msa=0
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tdg119
Social climber
Northampton, PA
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Aug 25, 2013 - 12:05pm PT
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Kelly this great, do you think we should at it to the Facebook page?
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OutdoorGal
Social climber
Lehigh Valley, PA
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Aug 25, 2013 - 12:31pm PT
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Like countless others, I have been following along on this thread and the FB page with interest and have sincere hope that Matthew's family and friends find him ASAP. I live in PA near Matt and his family but do not know them personally. I am amazed at the number of people who are invested in this search for answers and for Matt himself.
I just wanted to throw out a few thoughts (after reading the posts here and having never been in the area myself). A couple people have mentioned Blue Couloir as the nearest spot someone might go to hike on snow/ice. It was mentioned as about 10 miles from Shady Rest and easily accessible. Can this be added to the map so we can see where it is in relation to where the glasses were found? Is Inyo Crater on the way to or from Blue Couloir? Could Matt have perhaps set out from his campground on a day hike to explore Blue Couloir (with his boots, crampons, ice axe, etc.) and stopped off at Inyo Crater on the way to or from, when something happened (a fall, encounter with a bear, etc.)? Perhaps he got lost or disoriented in the dark in his way back to the campground in that Inyo area?
Regarding the glasses: If he set out very early in the morning or was going to be hiking still into the evening, I don't think it would be out of the ordinary to have had glasses and contact lenses with him. He could have started off in glasses, say, and changed to contacts once his eyes woke up fully. The glasses could have fallen out of the bag (or pocket or wherever they were stashed) when he reached in to get something else out at any point? Or he could have been wearing the contacts and switched to glasses later in the evening if his eyes got fatigued? In this scenario, maybe the glasses were knocked off his face somehow (a fall, bear, human attacker/foul play)?
I am not sure why the found-glasses prescription hasn't been analyzed yet to see if a match with Matt's. Could be done in a matter of seconds, right?
Good luck to Cragman and his climbing partner, who are heading out on another dangerous search, and to everyone following the other leads closer to the campground. The free flow of ideas on this thread is awesome and will hopefully lead to Matt's being found. Thanks for letting me add my ramblings.
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x1n54n3x
Boulder climber
mammoth lakes
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Aug 25, 2013 - 01:06pm PT
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Best of luck Cragman- stay safe.
I have also wondered whether Matt may have ventured through shady rest, through the scenic loop, through the craters to the Owens Headwater Wilderness. Like I said, plenty of trails out there, it's not tough, relatively close and it leads to some amazing scenery if you put in the work. It is however, very confusing. Just a thought. If these glasses pan out, I would put more emphasis on this area if there is nothing else found near or in the craters. He very well could have lost the glasses en route to somewhere else. This is a guy who knocks out tens of miles in a day, but a location or lead would send this forum a long way in terms of search efforts.
While Matt strikes me as adventurous and in impeccable shape, he does not strike me as careless. Playing around the crater or on its walls, given the amount of rockfall and visibly unstable features, seems like a rookie move that he would be careful to avoid. Not saying that something out of the ordinary couldn't have happened, but his experience would probably tell him not to take those sorts of senseless risks.
I really hope the glasses turn out to be a clue as to what direction he may have gone. Sending a search crew out in 4x4's to comb the ORV trails and surrounding wilderness area would not be hard to coordinate, IMO.
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tdg119
Social climber
Northampton, PA
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Aug 25, 2013 - 01:14pm PT
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Does the word Turtle mean anything out there?
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SplitPants
Social climber
LA
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Aug 25, 2013 - 02:19pm PT
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MGuzzy
Added to document and my husband is researching the crampons (fyi).
Tiffany/Ron
Does the word Turtle mean anything out there?
This does not ring a bell to me. I pulled the scanned chapters 11 & 12 from secor and did an automated search for the word "turtle" and the program did not find this word in either of the 2 chapters. Computers programs not always perfect so let us know if you hear back from anyone.
Thx
[EDIT] SalNichols -Excellent point:) There is Tuttle Creek, Tuttle Pass, Obelisk etc..(Whitney area right?)
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SalNichols
Big Wall climber
Richmond, CA
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Aug 25, 2013 - 02:23pm PT
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Are you sure it's Turtle and not Tuttle?
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Aug 25, 2013 - 02:44pm PT
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Tuttle Pass, Tuttle Creek, I think all things Tuttle are down by Lone Pine, a town about 100 miles south from Mammoth.
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Jeremy B.
climber
Northern California
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Aug 25, 2013 - 02:45pm PT
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I hate to say it, but I think the found glasses are correcting for farsightedness. For comparison, I've included a photo what the image shift looks like for a lens prescription of -5 (i.e. even stronger than Matt's). Note that the distortion is stronger at the edges (left arrow) than closer to the center (right arrow); at the midpoint of the lens, there will be no distortion.
This is the opposite of the found lenses, where it appears the image is being shifted to the outside of the lens. This seems especially visible on the right, where the brown sign background is pushed out. We will know for sure when an optometrist can check out the lenses.
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kenish
Gym climber
Orange County, CA
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Aug 25, 2013 - 02:50pm PT
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One way to resolve Jeremy's comment is to see if the Mammoth PD is willing to a farsighted volunteer or PD empoyee try them on. It will make their uncorrected vision either better or a lot worse...an unscientific but quick check before an exact Rx can be determined on Monday.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Aug 25, 2013 - 02:58pm PT
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from Jill's posting of Matt's 2006 trip report.
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=2207307&msg=2207307#msg2207307
I figured I put in 18 miles on the day, so I hit the sack early Likes long days
Always walk away with a plan for next time. When he's in a beautiful area he makes a plan for a return trip.
Ran the Beartooth 8.2, which rose 2000 ft (7000-9000) up the pass. It was tough – nearly 71 min. Managed to finish 20th out of ~ 120. The competition was stiff, but I could’ve pulled off a top 10 finish if I was in marathon shape. Tried to hike the Sylvan Plateau in the afternoon, but a T-storm turned me back a mile shy. Ran an 8.2 mile mountain race, placed in top 20 and started a long hike in the afternoon.
WE set a blistering pace climbing 5600 vertical over about 10 miles that took us up to Mystic Lake, on the Phantom Trail, then XC across. Froze-to-Death Plateau to the base of Tempest. I climbed Tempest at dusk. This was with a pack for an overnight bivvy, so sleeping bag, bivvy sack, food, etc.
so I decided to stick with the rock ridge rising from the saddle rather than the enormous snowfield below the ridge. I eventually ran out of rock anyways and had to get the axe and crampons anyways, I nearly made a fatal mistake by stepping on a cornice . Luckily an alarm went off in my head. Has glacier and snowfield experience and some savvy. (you learn something when you realize you've nearly stepped on a cornice)
We joined forces again for the final assault. Route finding was key due to the numerous chimneys and ledges. There were definitely some 4+ pitches. We passed about ½ dozen rappel stations, so I was confident we’d get back down. Eventually we hit the summit – no cairn or register, just a Geological Survey Marker. After a snack, we headed back down. Down climbing wasn’t so bad, but you definitely had to pay extra attention to the route and your hand and foot placements. Enjoys 3d-4th class climbing.
As I traversed back up to the base of Tempest, I saw him running/sliding down the 2000 ft snowfield to Avalanche. He reminds me of myself at 23/24 – too risky! I told him the snowfield covered the Granite Glacier, so there were sure to be some crevasses and such. Luckily he made it OK and covered the 2000 ft in just a few minutes. More glacier/snowfield savvy
Put in an awesome 10 hour hike. The rock was surprisingly solid. Yet, some big pieces moved. Returned to find that rodents had tore into my engine – plug wires, vacuum hose, mostly wire sheathing. Coasted into town and set up camp at the Alpine Motel. Been through the car breakdown before.
Same as yesterday – no car yet. Hitched a ride out to the BearTrack and hiked up the Silver Plateau (8 mi roundtrip, 2900 vertical) Doesn't sit still when his car is laid up. Hitched a ride out to the Bear Track
Coming up with a plan. Yellowstone, climb Teevinot (? Teewinot is a big day, 4th class, not trivial.
Hypothetically: (I hate guessing but we don't have a lot of facts to go on.
Fact: car STILL not ready on the 16th.
Facts: Matt had taken an easy day on the 16th..did his laundry, bought some stuff. Went to the library. Called friends about 9 PM
Fact: Matt had climbed the Clyde Minaret on the 11th. I don't think we know if he soloed or teamed up with someone (as he had in Montana in 2006). The Clyde is exposed 4th class by the easiest route. And the 4th class routes require ascending the Clyde glacier unless traversing from Eichorn.
Fact: Matt had also climbed Riegelhuth, and Michael Minarets. Riegelhuth has an easy route. All Michael routes are difficult 4th and 5th class.
Fact: Walter A Starr Jr died and was entombed on the NW Face of the Michael Minaret.
Fact: Matt had hitched a ride to get to the back country once before when his car was down.
Fact: Matt enjoyed long days in the mountains and didn't sit around when his car was out of commission.
Fact?? I think Matt had climbed the V (U) Notch Couloir earlier this summer. The U Notch is probably harder than anything in the Minarets, it's certainly much longer. Somewhat less dangerous as it doesn't end in cliffs at the bottom. The V Notch is harder than the U Notch a "notch" or two.
Questions: Did Matt know that Starr had died on the Michael Minaret and is entombed there?
Did he also know that a team had put up a plaque on the ledge a couple of years ago?
Did mountaineering history have an allure?
http://www.snwburd.com/bob/trip_reports/michael_minaret_1
http://www.snwburd.com/bob/trip_photos/michael_minaret_1/DSC00056.html
Assumption: Matt took his boots, crampons, pack and ice axe with him.
Assumption: Matt made a "plan" to return to the Minarets when he climbed the Clyde. They really are a magnetic attraction once you've been there. And just the kind of snow/ice/rock he had enjoyed in 2006.
Assumption: Matt had continued his mountaineering since 2006 and honed his skills. (see U Notch and Clyde Minaret ascents).
Hypothesis: Matt found a ride early AM of the 17th to Minaret Summit, at the far west end of the ski area parking lot. Possibly pre-arranged with someone he'd met on the 16th. Or maybe just hitched a ride, possibly with ski area worker.
Then proceeded into the Minarets/Ritter/Banner massif. All reachable with a long day round trip from Minaret Summit.
Alternate Hypothesis: Matt's "ride" to Minaret Summit ended badly.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
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Aug 25, 2013 - 03:14pm PT
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Simple physics ...
How to tell if glasses are nearsighted or farsighted
by STEPHANIE CHASTEEN on AUGUST 21, 2008
http://blog.sciencegeekgirl.com/2008/08/21/how-to-tell-if-glasses-are-nearsighted-or-farsighted/
Farsighted vision, convex lense, the image moves out.
Nearsighted vision, concave lense, the image moves in.
Note that the black frame of the eye-glass near the very bottom edge of the lense splits significantly and moves in to the left.
Note also the washer behind the bolt (zoom way in), the outer edge of the washer moves in from a perfect circle.
These eye glasses are for nearsighted vision.
The bottom of my personal progressive lense glasses for reading (bottom portion only) are for nearsighted vision which is slight and they don't move the eye-glass frame in toward the left as much as these found glasses do.
I would say the glasses found are for strong nearsighted vision.
Jeremy,
You maybe right. Applying the simple rule as stated in the article, and imagining them on someones face, it could move the face outward. I may have screwed up there. What I imagined as moving in could be infact outward.
This can be determined quickly shooting at a computer screen as you did even through dirty glasses that were found. Are they nearsighted or farsighted would be very easy to determine.
Still an optometrist has to verify them. They could be variable across the lense as mine are for reading, and they looking at far-distance.
Did Matt wear glasses that were variable across the lenses? Perhaps some of his friends and family know the answer to this easy question.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
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Aug 25, 2013 - 03:24pm PT
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Any quality images of Matt wearing glasses where we can see the side of his cheekbone through the lenses and apply the rule?
We know he's strongly nearsighted. How do the glasses look on his face considering the rule.
How to tell if glasses are nearsighted or farsighted
by STEPHANIE CHASTEEN on AUGUST 21, 2008
http://blog.sciencegeekgirl.com/2008/08/21/how-to-tell-if-glasses-are-nearsighted-or-farsighted/
Farsighted vision, convex lense, the image moves out.
Nearsighted vision, concave lense, the image moves in.
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LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
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Aug 25, 2013 - 03:41pm PT
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I agree with Klimmer that Jeremy may be right that the glasses that were found look like they're for far-sightedness. I did want to note that according to his prescription, in addition to being nearsighted, Matt had mild astigmatism in his right eye (-.75) and mild to moderate astigmatism in his left eye (-1.00). Based on a quick web search about astigmatism, the other numbers in the glasses prescription indicate that the axes around which the astigmatism was to be corrected were very different -- almost horizontal in the right eye (175) and almost vertical in the left eye (005).
I don't know how the astigmatism would affect how things look when you place the glasses in front of them the way we're looking at the sign through the glasses. (I'm quite nearsighted but don't have much astigmatism, hence cannot tell from doing this with my own glasses.)
I think Klimmer's suggestion re looking at pictures of Matt makes sense, but I'm not sure whether the "image moves in" thing would be visible given that Matt's prescription isn't as strong as Jeremy's or mine.
I'm making the assumption that Matt's various pairs of glasses are similar to the prescription that Tiffany got from the optician, and thus were meant as alternatives to contacts and not as reading glasses. (The prescription from that optician didn't seem to be for progressive lenses, but that's not to say Matt had no such glasses.)
I gather that the Mammoth police department will get the glasses tested as soon as possible -- I hope that's today or tomorrow.
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SplitPants
Social climber
LA
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Aug 25, 2013 - 03:46pm PT
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HighTraverse
Fact?? I think Matt had climbed the V (U) Notch Couloir earlier this summer. The U Notch is probably harder than anything in the Minarets, it's certainly much longer. Somewhat less dangerous as it doesn't end in cliffs at the bottom. The V Notch is harder than the U Notch a "notch" or two.
When I compiled the timeline yesterday I came across this information in previous posts:
Climbs in the area done prior to 7/13 [per Tom Davidcock and Matt's friends]
− Unicorn peak
− Mammoth Crest
− Clyde minaret on 7/11 (verified with registry signature)
− Dana Couloir
− North peak
− Palisades v notch
− Reigeluth minaret
There is also a post by Teddy that states "Checked register at Star plaque and no signature"
Really think your analysis/insight is great! Hope this helps. Tx
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Aug 25, 2013 - 03:46pm PT
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MGuzzy
It's common practice to just take boots/crampons and one axe on a moderate alpine (rock, snow, ice) climb. Especially if solo where a rope/harness are of no help unless you plan to rappel.
Apparently Matt was pretty experienced and skilled in their use.
SplitPants
Thanks for clarifying the facts.
FYI Dana Couloir is frequently a first snow/ice route in the Sierra right at Tioga Pass, the Yosemite East entrance. It's long, not particularly difficult and in spectacular surroundings. And a quick approach from the car; for Matt, likely about 2 hours. Easy warm up day trip at altitude.
V (or U) Notch couloirs are in the Palisades and a much larger undertaking. U Notch is definitely a step up from Dana and V Notch is harder still.
Point is, Matt had been ticking off the classic Sierra summer snow/ice climbs.
Which leads to the question: was Ritter SE Glacier next? (that's the area Cragman and Flanders explored on their last trip). Although Ritter SE Glacier is a walk in the park compared to Matt's earlier climbs it STILL has the objective hazards of moats, bergschrunds and cliffs.
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SplitPants
Social climber
LA
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Aug 25, 2013 - 04:02pm PT
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thanks for the clarification HighTraverse
DITTO! I really like the factual, yet simple and straightforward way HighTraverse spells things out. I am blonde after all:)
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SplitPants
Social climber
LA
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Aug 25, 2013 - 04:23pm PT
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All,
A 2 min segment on Matthew Greene just aired on CNN here in California. I checked CNN's site, but the segment has not posted. I recorded the video on my camera, but don't have a way to load here (I don't do youtube). If anyone wants the video to upload I would be willing to zip and send over.
Thanks
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Aug 25, 2013 - 04:30pm PT
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Ron, I think the Clyde glacier is a very likely spot. I've traversed below it from Cecile Lake to Ritter in early summer, with lots of snow, and it was very scary. Big cliffs below it and at least two of those chasms split that section all the way from the toe of the glacier to Iceberg lake. The route I took is all bare rock now, we came back the long way via Ediza and Iceberg to Cecile so we wouldn't have to go back on that traverse.
The three 4th class routes on the N Side of Clyde can only be approached via that glacier.
Cragman and Flanders didn't have time to go over that way.
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tdg119
Social climber
Northampton, PA
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Aug 25, 2013 - 04:53pm PT
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Visited my parents today and they had a bunch of pictures Matt had put on their PC from his 09-10' trips. We have no idea what terrain; other than some of it being the Gunks - all those mountains just look the same to us.
Just sharing in case it helps with anything. 90% of the pictures are scenic with a few pictures of Matt himself - in fact the "missing" photo in the news is from this set.
Side note: one of the items believed to be with Matt is his digital camera. I found the disc for one at his house - disc is for Sony Cybershot DSC S-750/S-780 so if either of those models is found...
https://findmattgreene.shutterfly.com/
~Tiffany
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Dropline
Mountain climber
Somewhere Up There
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Aug 25, 2013 - 05:08pm PT
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Why wouldn't one want to take two ice tools instead of one?
If on a technical climb, meaning terrain is steep enough that one is placing ice tools to actually climb, two tools are necessary. If the terrain is more moderate, the terrain less steep, you're not climbing on ice tools but rather moving up with just your feet. One ice tool is sufficient for balance and one is much better in the event you trip and need to self arrest. On moderate terrain a second tool just gets in the way, and is generally stowed or left behind.
I don't know the terrain out there at all but that he took just one ice tool and not two, to me means that he didn't anticipate anything very steep.
I don't know Matt but someone up thread mentioned he was at the Gunks recently and climbed Doubleissima. I'll be running by Doubleissima in the next hour or so.
Good luck to all of you doing so much to help. This thread is the very best of Supertopo and the climbing community.
Best wishes to Matt, his family, and friends.
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Dropline
Mountain climber
Somewhere Up There
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Aug 25, 2013 - 05:45pm PT
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Ron, it's hard to know who knows what here, and certainly some of Matt's friends and family who are following this thread aren't alpinists, so I thought I'd elaborate in a way I wouldn't normally here. If I had just one ice tool I'd be avoiding bergshrunds. My guess is that was his plan, but of course I'm just guessing.
Personally, I don't put much stock in dreams, but last night I dreamed that Matt turned up and posted a dramatic and lengthy TR here. If only.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Aug 25, 2013 - 05:49pm PT
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whoop man, those pics give me mixed emotions.
What do I take away that's "useful"?
1: mostly solo travel in the mountains.
2: did at least one difficult ice climb. It think it's in upper New York State
3: 2 solo trips into the Wind Rivers (early and mid summer)
4: Plenty of time on mountain snowfields. Maybe not so much on steep ice fields like in the Sierra in summer.
5: I didn't see many summit pics. Apparently none from steep climbs.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Aug 25, 2013 - 06:09pm PT
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Climbing the V Notch (or U Notch) couloir in mid summer, this year especially, involves negotiating a significant bergschrund so Matt had some experience with that. Possibly less so with moats/schrunds at the top of a much larger snow/ice field. Cragman's pic on his TR showed a major schrund at the top of a snowfield on Ritter.
For non glacier climbers: a bergschrund is a usually horizontal space that forms at the top or bottom of a slowly moving ice mass. Its a deep "crevasse" between the steep ice and the steep rock behind it. They can be many feet deep even on a small ice field. In warm weather, the lip of the 'schrund can be soft enough for a man's weight to collapse it. Or, if fallen into from above, extremely difficult to get out of. Moats are similar gaps that appear along the sides of snow/ice fields where they are melting away from the rock. Or sometimes within the boundaries of snow/ice field, often around big rocks.
Both bergschrunds and moats are likely to have ice cold running water between them and the rock.
At this time of year, in the Sierra, the melt / freeze cycles cause the snow/ice to soften in afternoon and often to freeze again at night. Through the season this slowly turns the top several inches into ice at night which may or may not melt in the daytime.
For instance the Dana couloir (which I've climbed in mid summer and late October) is firm snow in late June, softening to slush by mid afternoon and freezing again at night. On a good day, with one axe, you can "hike" up it in the morning before it gets too soft, crampons optional depending on conditions. It was likely in this condition when Matt climbed it.
By late September (possibly earlier this year) it will turn to hard blue ice requiring crampons, one or two ice axes and great care not to fall.
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tdg119
Social climber
Northampton, PA
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Aug 25, 2013 - 06:30pm PT
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FWIW, not all those pics were solo; I took out a handful of others since I don't know whether they'd want their faces out there. These pics I reference are mainly the ones with climbs involved (rope, caribiners, helmet, gloves, etc)
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SplitPants
Social climber
LA
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Aug 25, 2013 - 06:36pm PT
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Attached a snapshot of clothing and gear. If anything is incorrect and/or I missed anything please let me know. Thx
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Big Breasted Woman
Trad climber
The Brown Crack
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Aug 25, 2013 - 06:42pm PT
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Great job, Splitpants! Really clarifies things for those unfamiliar with climbing and/or outdoor gear etc..
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SplitPants
Social climber
LA
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Aug 25, 2013 - 06:56pm PT
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MGuzzy & Tiffany
I did some research on the camera models. The sony site indicates the models are no longer available. I was curious about GPS and wifi capabilities as well.
S750 model - this model does not have capabilities
http://www.amazon.com/Sony-Cyber-shot-DSCS750-Digital-Optical/dp/B0011E67AG
HOWEVER.....
S780 model-SUPPORTS AN OPTIONAL GPS UNIT!
"Picture Motion Browser software Supplied software makes it easier to upload, organize, and search photos on your PC. When shooting photos using your camera and an optional GPS unit, the software even provides a convenient map view function that lets you sort photos by location and display their origin on a world map. "
http://www.amazon.com/Sony-Cybershot-DSCS780-Digital-Optical/dp/B0011E67AQ
Is there anyway to find out if Matt purchased this? Perhaps product registration information? I was not able to find a picture of the GPS unit. If this is a lead I would be wlling to go to the Sony store. If I recall we have a large sony store at a mall nearby.
[EDIT] One alternate way to perhaps determine this....Tiffany if you have access to the pictures you found today. Take one of the pictures on the hard drive that say have a mountain/peak. Right click on the picture, select property and then look at the details. IF there is GPS Lat/Long meta data then I would say we just may be in luck. If you dont know how to check all of this PM me and I can have you send me a couple of pics and I can take a look at the meta data. I will also go to the link you posted and see what I can get off the meta data.
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SplitPants
Social climber
LA
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Aug 25, 2013 - 07:15pm PT
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Tiffany/MGuzzy
Ok, I did some research and in Adobe Photoshop (which I have) there is a function to view image properties. If the image has GPS metadata this information would show up. I took 2 pics from the link you provided today and the GPS data shows as empty:( See screen capture I uploaded below...
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SplitPants
Social climber
LA
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Aug 25, 2013 - 07:37pm PT
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MGuzzy/Jeg
Can someone re-confirm the model? Jeg's comments indicate he just purchased. Looks like the models are from 08/09 and are no longer on the sony website as active models being sold. Just want to make certain we have the correct model. Would be a nice find to find out different model number and that it has built in GPS and wifi. If only............(sigh)
[EDIT]LAHiker has good idea. If we can find a picture Matt took with his camera say in the last few months that would be even better. I could check the meta data. If pic is found please PM me so I can respond and have picture sent direct. Thx
[EDIT] Thanks LAHiker
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LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
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Aug 25, 2013 - 07:37pm PT
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Thanks, SplitPants for compiling all that info and for your digital wizardry! I think it's an great idea to use metadata to get at the camera model and possible GPS capabilities. If the Sony Cybershot DSC S-750/S-780 models are no longer made, and Matt just got a new digital camera, it could be another type of camera.
Would Jill, Ron, or Tiffany have any pictures Matt made with the new camera? Might he have uploaded them somewhere? Sometimes even pictures that have been uploaded (if they haven't been manipulated in a program such as Photoshop) retain their metadata. Then, using the Adobe Photoshop function Splitpants used, or even just "Get Info" function on a Mac, one can find out what kind of camera it is and can see whether it has GPS, as she did with the other pictures.
BTW, I also want to thank HighTraverse and others for your logic, and for explaining things to us non-climbing folks.
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jeg
Social climber
center valley,Pa
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Aug 25, 2013 - 08:03pm PT
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The camera was red. We are asking his friend who has the charging devices for the camera, if he can determine manufactor/model. He did not download any pictures while in Ca as he did not have a computer. He was planning to download the pictures when he returned to Pa and then send my husband the pictures he had taken during there climbs.
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tdg119
Social climber
Northampton, PA
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Aug 25, 2013 - 08:27pm PT
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I did not see any camera boxes at Matt's place. Drawer full of old cameras, but the disc was in a different location which led me to believe it was for the most recent one. Sorry for misleading anyone.
I did also look at the image properties for the pictures - they were taken with a different camera yet (Cybershot S950) but no GPS info.
My parents have all his CC bills; if necessary we can go through them to look for purchase.
No account existing with Sony using his Hotmail address.
PS. Unfortunately, I have not been able to figure a way into his Hotmail account - can't get past the seemingly easy security question for the life of me - and I'd have to jump through legal hoops to get anything from Microsoft. Makes these simple tasks that much more difficult.
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SplitPants
Social climber
LA
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Aug 25, 2013 - 09:41pm PT
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I updated the 1 page gear summary based on new picture of Axe and removed digital camera model and image. Once we have model confirmed I will add new image. We do know the camera is red.
Tx
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Finn2302
Trad climber
Easton, pa
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Aug 25, 2013 - 10:17pm PT
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Again, I can't say enough about the amazing folks helping out here!!!
Here is a bit more information and my observations on Matt regarding his glasses, climbing experience and climbing partners.
On our last trip to the Gunks, Matt wore his glasses up in the car, then changed into his contacts just before we got there for climbing. He then switched back to glasses on the way home. I believe he had done this before as well on other trips. On this last trip, he and I spoke about contacts a little - I asked why he changed his, as I just leave mine in for a few weeks then change them out. I can't remember the why, but he was telling me that it didn't or wouldn't work for him - maybe the type he had?
Regarding Matt's experience on Hard Ice, his friend John can certainly give better information than me, but I do know that he has had a reasonable amount of experience on moderately difficult north east ice climbs (multi-pitch at Poke O..) I don't believe Matt led hard ice, but has followed many routes. Taking one axe it seems he planned on an alpine day.
Matt has significant trad climbing experience. He lead trad up to gunks 5.9 and sport to 5.11. I was recently using his guide book from the City of Rocks where he noted many sends in the 5.10 and 5.11 range.
I also believe that Matt has done several of the 50 classic climbs of North America - some of his other climbing pals might be able to give better details / specifics than me.
Matt is a strong energetic climber - always ready to go, but never reckless or even remotely reckless on the rope. He is always careful and calculated - high level focus.
Here is some other information that I haven't read much about - so I'll offer it up to the group think/effort in the hope that it helps find answers. Matt has from time to time picked up climbing partners on-line from places like Mountain Project. If he was in an area and wanted to do a bigger / more technical route - he would find a partner on-line and climb for the day with that person. He told me about a few epics / minor epics he'd had because of the lack of skill of some of these partners - despite what they claimed. It would not have suprised me at all if he had met someone on or off line to climb with during that period of time - particularly since he had no wheels. So it would have been a good deal for him to find someone on-line and maybe they picked him up on the 17th for an early alpine start.
I also believe that Matt certainly would have hitchhiked to get to a trail head if needed (in this lack of car situation he was in) or just asked someone in town he had been talking with for a ride - or another person at his camp site area.
As you can see by Matt's blog that was posted - he was always going. He was the kind of guy that would get up and do a 6 mile cross-country ski (solo) before everyone else had finished their morning coffee. He'd then go off and do something for the day with the group.. More skiing or climbing.
I would just like to say thanks again for everyone's help - the caring and energy is amazing!!
Greg
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SplitPants
Social climber
LA
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Aug 25, 2013 - 10:29pm PT
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Finn2301 +10!!!
Thank you so much for the information. Very insightful. Do you think it might be of any value to comb through the forum posts on the mountain project site? If so we can do that!
Tx again.
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Jilli
Trad climber
Livermore, California/ Dunedin NZ
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Aug 25, 2013 - 10:37pm PT
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Matt has from time to time picked up climbing partners on-line from places like Mountain Project.
Wasn't it shared by someone else (Ron/Tiffany) that Matt had made a comment on a thread on Mountain Project on July 16th about water/dehydration (?) OR was that Summit Post?
EDIT: because if so that would be easy to search for other users that day i would think
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Jilli
Trad climber
Livermore, California/ Dunedin NZ
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Aug 25, 2013 - 10:45pm PT
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Btw, I am working on finding out about the missing gear - possibility of it being sold at nearby shop (Mammoth Mtneering Gear Exchange, Bishop CA) where my friend works. Although it is highly unlikely to find any record of this gear (since someone smart would sell it quick online IF this was the case), it is worth to tick off the list in the case this was foul play. (or in the case where the gear was stolen from campsite during the week after 17th after Matt went missing- which would show he in fact was only going on a local day hike...)
Here's what I've got so far then (thanks to SplitPants/MGuzzy/jeg/(Tony):
Mountain Hardwear South Col 70liter
La Sportiva Nepal Extreme's - size 11.5/12 - yellow (purchased Spring 2013)
Petzl Quark Ice Axe (one of his two), no leash, silver with a bit of orange
PIC: http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=2195321&tn=1060
Black Diamond crampons - horizontal front points, Step in, black & yellow strap. Approx.10years old, quite used.
Any other details to add?
Cheers.
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Finn2302
Trad climber
Easton, pa
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Aug 25, 2013 - 10:49pm PT
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Certainly worth pulling the partner forum threads! It was the first thing I did when I got the call from the police officer reporting him missing - I checked mountain project and I think some others like summit post and rock climbing.com. I didn't have as much information as is available now, so maybe we should recheck everything. In fact, at the time, I didn't even know the information about Lyell or Ritter - just that Matt had been getting his car fixed in the Mammoth area.
One challenge is that some of the posts offer the need for a partner, but then you can call them - so there might not be a good clear email string.
Greg
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Jilli
Trad climber
Livermore, California/ Dunedin NZ
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Aug 25, 2013 - 10:49pm PT
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REPOSTING THIS as I noticed no one else picked up on this crucial piece of information Ron/Tiffany shared........ (I don't know what this means but I believe it says a lot):
tdg119
"
Aug 24, 2013 - 07:02pm PT
I debated posting this, worried it'd be construed wrong, but decided to. When searching Matt's house, there was a notebook. Amongst it were some half scribbled notes that were started but not finished (with the exception of one I found regarding a guide book exchange; found both draft and full letter on that one.)
This one is straightforward. What I don't know is his habits with this note. Still, in my mind, it seems important he's thought it out if nothing else. I see it as something he'd leave on/in his car or campsite if planning something long and/or dangerous.
Just more speculation, I know, but I felt compelled to share.
http://www.supertopo.com/photos/19/62/317745_24500_L.jpg
Credit: tdg119
"
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
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Aug 25, 2013 - 10:54pm PT
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On our last trip to the Gunks, Matt wore his glasses up in the car, then changed into his contacts just before we got there for climbing. He then switched back to glasses on the way home. I believe he had done this before as well on other trips. On this last trip, he and I spoke about contacts a little - I asked why he changed his, as I just leave mine in for a few weeks then change them out. I can't remember the why, but he was telling me that it didn't or wouldn't work for him - maybe the type he had?
Greg Thanks.
Concerning the glasses. We don't have them the PD does. So we aren't gonna touch them. No worries there.
I know it's only been since Friday that the eye-glasses were found and now its Sunday, but I have mild ADHD. I hate waiting to know. Seems we could know quickly. Sometimes waiting sucks. It's kinda like watching Silly Putty change shape. Have you ever done that? Man that's slow going and cruel punishment. Sometimes thinking out-loud helps pass the time. At least for me. That's one of the things I like about ST, the ability to think things through together and also independently too.
Anyway, it's a good time to learn about eye-sight and eye-glasses I figure. With nearsighted vision (Myopia -- Nearsightedness) and Astigmatism both together, and each eye a little different than the other, and in the right eye astigmatism going horizontal, and in the left eye astigmatism going vertical, lenses can take on their own peculiar shapes and traits. And obviously each lense is gonna be different from the other.
Found some good articles with embedded short videos:
Myopia (Nearsightedness)
By Gretchyn Bailey
http://www.allaboutvision.com/conditions/myopia.htm
Hyperopia (Farsightedness)
By Gretchyn Bailey; reviewed by Vance Thompson, MD;
Flash illustration by Stephen Bagi
http://www.allaboutvision.com/conditions/hyperopia.htm
Astigmatism
By Gary Heiting, OD
http://www.allaboutvision.com/conditions/astigmatism.htm
I learned a lot.
Edit:
How to read eyeglass prescriptions:
http://www.allaboutvision.com/eyeglasses/eyeglass-prescription.htm
tdg119 ...
Aug 24, 2013 - 06:57am PT
Here's Matt's eye RXs from 2-1-13
Glasses:
OD - 2.75 - 0.75 x 175
OS - 2.75 - 1.00 x 005
Contacts:
OD - 8.6 / 14.5 - 2.50 - 0.75 x 180
OS - 8.6 / 14.5 - 2.50 - 1.25 x 180
Acuvue Oasys for Astigmatism
Hope that means something; my eyes are good so it's Greek to me.
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kenish
Gym climber
Orange County, CA
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Aug 25, 2013 - 11:34pm PT
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The GPS location of a photo is called a "geotag". When previewing photo files in Windows 7 (and possibly earlier Windows), File Explorer shows all the metadata including the lat/lon (if present). Windows Photo Viewer does the same.
A geotag unit *records* the position but there's no trail of the camera's location without the images. Either the memory card has to be available or the photos have to be uploaded to cloud storage. (Some geotag units connect via WiFi to upload photos but not on a continuing basis). Most smartphones provide geotag info "on the fly", but they are in constant 2-way communication with the cell network. That's very different than a stand-alone digital camera.
I may not be "getting" something here, but I don't see any benefit in geotags from photos that were uploaded before Matt disappeared. Just trying to save digging around for camera details that may not be beneficial. Apologies if I'm missing the point.
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SplitPants
Social climber
LA
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Aug 25, 2013 - 11:35pm PT
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Tiffany/Jilli
REPOSTING THIS as I noticed no one else picked up on this crucial piece of information Ron/Tiffany shared........ (I don't know what this means but I believe it says a lot)
Do you think it possible Matt left a note on his tent/campsite and it was missed somehow?
Is it a safe assumption that Matt leaves notes on his car/tent when he goes out alone?
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SplitPants
Social climber
LA
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Aug 25, 2013 - 11:37pm PT
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kenish
Thanks for the information. We were actually trying to get a recent picture because we found out that Matt has a newer camera (different than the model mentioned inearlier posts). We figured if we got a recent picture from him/his camera from that we could figure out from the metadata the camera model and if it had GPS capability.
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kenish
Gym climber
Orange County, CA
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Aug 25, 2013 - 11:41pm PT
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split- Very clever of you...Using a geotag camera as a device to get "un-lost" is something I didn't consider.
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LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
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Aug 25, 2013 - 11:43pm PT
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In the "is someone trying to sell Matt's gear online thus possibly indicating foul play" department, I did a search for yellow La Sportiva Nepal Extreme's on eBay.
I did come up with one lightly used size 11.5 pair for sale:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/La-Sportiva-nepal-top-extreme-Climbing-Boots-/221264165364?pt=US_Men_s_Athletic_Footwear&hash=item33845f39f4
The insoles are missing -- the seller says he misplaced them -- maybe he discarded them when he put something like Superfeet in? (That's what I'd do as a hiker.)
I don't know when the boots were placed on sale. The seller has sold other things, gets good reviews, and is far from Mammoth, in Canada. He is NOT selling other items associated with Matt. So I suspect these boots have nothing to do with Matt. But I offer this up for what it's worth.
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SplitPants
Social climber
LA
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Aug 25, 2013 - 11:45pm PT
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Kenish
I think it is a long shot, but we lose nothing by trying right?
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Jilli
Trad climber
Livermore, California/ Dunedin NZ
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Aug 25, 2013 - 11:53pm PT
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LAhiker,
I did a search for yellow La Sportiva Nepal Extreme's on eBay
I think unrelated to Matt since in Canada and user gets good ratings, looks like normal joe shmo selling his boots. They are very popular boots. Good idea though, too bad it's too late to check craigslist. :-/
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Jilli
Trad climber
Livermore, California/ Dunedin NZ
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Aug 26, 2013 - 12:30am PT
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MGuzzy,
Yep I think it's probably as simple as that.
Only Q I have is regarding what Ron/Tiffany wrote in the description of where the note was found:
"When searching Matt's house" - that left me thinking the note was written while Matt was back home before trip which would have been strange, BUT if found in the car your explanaton makes perfect sense. Cheers.
So... where was the note found? That's the answer needed to be sure about this.
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Delhi Dog
climber
Good Question...
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Aug 26, 2013 - 12:54am PT
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Riley, folks are on it. Thanks though
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Todd Quinn
Trad climber
Oceanside, CA
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Aug 26, 2013 - 01:56am PT
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Chapter 12, I keep going back to the book. Matt and I have similar climbing skills and I try to look at the information with his perspective. I singled out trails that either looks to easy or to hard for Matt. First part of chapter 12 describes sixteen trails. The second part of the chapter is summits and passes. Mount Ritter stand out because the pages refer to the trails leading to summit. Mount Ritter requires ice axes and crampons.
The missing link for me is where did Matt start his hike?? If it was Ritter where would Matt want to get dropped off? The book refers Devil Postpile as the starting point.
Personal I don't think Matt had enough time to summit and he had to turn around before it got to dark.
All this information is similar to a big math problem.
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kenish
Gym climber
Orange County, CA
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Aug 26, 2013 - 02:34am PT
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Todd- I'm not a climber but am familiar with the area. Agree w/ you...one of the last "pings" from Matt's cell phone was directly north of Mammoth Mtn, possibly the main lodge area. IIRC it was around 545am. Cars can continue west past the main lodge in the early morning and he's used to teaming up with others and/or hitching rides. All this suggests he got a ride down to Red's Meadow, the Postpile, etc. Before the phone records were retrieved, people felt he probably took YARTs.
Maybe this connects dots that shouldn't be, but the rather sparse facts strongly suggest it.
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LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
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Aug 26, 2013 - 02:47am PT
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Kenish, I believe that it was later determined that the time given for that ping was in Eastern Time. When that is corrected for, it looks like Matt turned on his phone at 2:53am Pacific Daylight Time and received a text that had been sent the night before. (I think the text was from someone at a PA climbing gym.)
Apparently it was unusual for Matt to turn on his phone so early in the morning. People have said that he sometimes complained about early-morning campground noise. So it isn't known why he turned on the phone at that hour. (He had apparently been turning the phone off when it wasn't in use, presumably to preserve battery power.)
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Signal_Hill
Mountain climber
Signal Hill
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Aug 26, 2013 - 04:05am PT
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I do not have anything to add other than my best wishes. Everyone who has spent time in the Sierras has had a close call. I just want to wish his family and friends the best.
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Fig's Lady
Social climber
Bishop, CA and Tucson Arizona
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Aug 26, 2013 - 05:17am PT
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Watching CNN. Remaining hopeful and sending best wishes to his family and friends.
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tdg119
Social climber
Northampton, PA
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Aug 26, 2013 - 06:26am PT
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So... where was the note found? That's the answer needed to be sure about
In a notebook on the same shelf as several of his guidebooks. It was on a piece of paper that had been cut/torn out as if he was going to take it with him. Not from his car.
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crankster
Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
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Aug 26, 2013 - 09:29am PT
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Tiffany, Ron, et al - Can you determine from the gear at home whether Matt took a water filter and a headlamp with him? This would be standard gear for someone planning a long day out in the Sierra.
A personal first-aid kit, warm hat & a light pair of gloves would be in my pack, too.
I'm assuming he didn't solo the V-Notch Couloir - right, he did that with Jill's husband, John?
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SplitPants
Social climber
LA
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Aug 26, 2013 - 10:36am PT
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crankster
I have added your questions to the document I am maintaining.
I'm assuming he didn't solo the V-Notch Couloir - right, he did that with Jill's husband, John?
The following has been "confirmed"
Climbs in the area done prior to 7/13 [per Tom Davidcock and Matt's friends]
− Unicorn peak
− Mammoth Crest
− Clyde minaret on 7/11 (verified with registry signature)
− Dana Couloir
− North peak
− Palisades v notch
− Reigeluth minaret
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synesthesiac
Trad climber
Davis, CA
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Aug 26, 2013 - 11:08am PT
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Hi, all,
I've been following this thread for a while now and like many of you, I'm sure, feel a connection to Matt because of our shared love of the Sierra and alpine climbing. I've also done similar spur-of-the-moment solo outings of a similar nature, and had a few close calls along the way, so Matt's particular case really resonates with me.
When that is corrected for, it looks like Matt turned on his phone at 2:53am Pacific Daylight Time and received a text that had been sent the night before. (I think the text was from someone at a PA climbing gym.)
Given what I've read in this thread, I believe that Cragman (and others) have likely been looking in the correct general area (Ritter/Banner/Minarets), or at least that was where Matt intended to go. The reason I'm chiming in now is that in the discussion of his probable timeline and the cell tower records, I don't believe that I've heard anyone mention that he may have caught a ride down to the trailhead at Agnew Meadows on the evening of the 16th in preparation for a pre-dawn start. Is there any evidence that he spent that night at Shady Rest? Even for someone who is extremely fit, starting out from Shady Rest for such a big day just doesn't make any sense to me, and expecting to hitch a timely ride that early in the morning also doesn't sound right.
What makes more sense to me was that he was already at or near the trailhead when he turned his phone on, and getting up at 3 AM to start that hike actually sounds about right to me if he intended to climb the glacier before it got too soft. I noticed in one of the photos of his pack, it looks like the framesheet may be a reusable bivy pad. I have a alpine pack with a similar feature, and I've used it in the past for a quick bivy for just a few hours before an "alpine start." Maybe he did something similar.
Even if this is the case, I don't know that it changes anything in regards to where people should be looking, but I thought I'd mention it in case it sparks a fresh idea or helps to fit a couple of the puzzle pieces together.
Hoping for a miracle here. Matt sounds like a great guy!
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Aug 26, 2013 - 11:27am PT
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The Agnew Meadows route follows the Pacific Crest Trail north and then splits left up Shadow Creek past Shadow Lake to Lake Ediza. A common base camp for Ritter/Banner. This is also a good way to approach the northern Minarets.
However, there is a saddle between the Lake Ediza and Minaret Lake drainages which is directly below the east ridge of the Clyde Minaret. That is better approached from Devil's Postpile via Minarets Creek trail and past Minaret Lake up some short 2nd/3rd class cliffs to the saddle. Cecile Lake is a beautiful small lake right on the saddle, with spectacular views of Clyde and the southern Minarets. It's frequently used as a high camp or bivouac site. Cecile is surrounded by krumholz, short alpine firs spreading low to the ground which offer shelter for open bivvy's.
There is no official trail from Minaret Lake to Cecile and then back down to Iceberg. There is a trail from Iceberg on to Ediza. The climber's track is easy to follow in good weather and has no real difficulties. Minaret and Iceberg lakes are the same elevation, about 9900 ft. Cecile is 10,300.
For Matt to walk either distance from the town of Mammoth would be unlikely. I think that's something like a 40 mile round trip.
From Devil's Postpile, the southern Minarets are a long day, but within Matt's range.
From Agnews Meadows trailhead, Ritter and Banner are also within Matt's range (not my range for sure)
Since he had already climbed in the Minarets, he likely knew about both routes. He could have taken either route depending on his objective. It's even possible he intended to do the complete circuit with some snow/ice climbing in the middle.
You can traverse all the way from Cecile Lake to the SE (glacier) side of Ritter at about 11000 ft. This traverse avoids dropping 400 hundred feet down to Iceberg lake to climb back up to Ritter/Banner. The route goes directly beneath the prominent glacier on the NE aspect of Clyde and Eichorn and above steep cliffs. It is a wild and beautiful route. Really up there. Very seldom done. (I haven't spoken with any other climbers who've done it)
There is much loose rock on this traverse. It's also split in two places by deep chasms which can only be crossed by climbing up onto the glacier. These are easily seen in Tom Cochrane's and Cragmans' photos on the other threads.
Upper left of this photo
Doug Nidever, the Chief Knucklehead, at Ediza Lake http://www.supertopo.com/tr/A-search-for-Matthew-Greene/t12089n.html#comments
And the edited photo by climb2ski on page 2 of Tom C's thread
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=2205815&tn=20
Has anyone checked back to know what the weather was for the 4 or 5 days after the 17th?
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crankster
Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
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Aug 26, 2013 - 11:42am PT
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What makes more sense to me was that he was already at or near the trailhead when he turned his phone on, and getting up at 3 AM to start that hike actually sounds about right to me if he intended to climb the glacier before it got too soft.
I've been musing about this up thread. The missing link to this scenario is any evidence he had any bivy gear with him, at least a sleeping bag liner or simiar. The High Sierra evenings were fairly mild on July 16th - I'm guessing lows in the mid-high 40's. However, I'm pretty sure anyone catching a ride to the Agnew Meadow trailhead the night before would at least have a light sleeping bag with him, probably a light pad, too.
Another mystery is that he was apparently in his tent texting on the 16th, around 6 pm as I recall, and he mentioned he was going to bed at 9 pm. Seems like he would have mentioned something about leaving pre-dawn to whomever he was in contact with.
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jeg
Social climber
center valley,Pa
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Aug 26, 2013 - 11:58am PT
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He did not take his bivy sac.
He didn't filter the water, just drank it.
Checking on headlight...
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kenish
Gym climber
Orange County, CA
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Aug 26, 2013 - 12:09pm PT
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Has anyone checked back to know what the weather was for the 4 or 5 days after the 17th?
July 17-31st, approximate highs were 80-95 and lows were 40-55. There was trace precipitation 3 of the days. But that was in town; in the summer one spot can be dry while an area a few miles away gets soaked. The moon was quarter around the 17th and full on the 22nd.
Apparently it was unusual for Matt to turn on his phone so early in the morning. People have said that he sometimes complained about early-morning campground noise. So it isn't known why he turned on the phone at that hour.
Thanks for clarifying the actual time. I recall the ping was north of Mammoth Mountain. If that's correct, the phone was most likely in the Main Lodge area or Inyo Crater. The campground and the town are *east* of the peak and the cell records show pings from other cell site(s) in town.
There probably isn't cell coverage at Agnew, Reds, or Postpile. Someone can clarify this. In the Rainbow Falls area farther south there is line-of-sight to Mammoth Mountain. All these areas and the Minarets are to the west or SW of the peak, not north.
If the ping was at 253am and to the north, the phone was not turned on at the campground or west of the crest. Some possibilities:
Matt went up to Main Lodge in the evening for an early start. There's lodging there...maybe he crashed out on a sofa in the room of a person he met and got a ride to the trailhead. Cars are allowed to drive down there in the early morning before shuttle service begins. Or, he camped on the grounds of the Main Lodge complex...not sure how tolerant security would be.
Went to Inyo Crater on an evening or night hike. Got injured and tried to get a call out. I don't think the Inyo Crater area is heavily traveled.
Foul play or theft. The person who had the phone turned it on briefly.
If Matt spent the night at Main Lodge, he may have brought items from the campground that he wouldn't take climbing (e.g. toiletries), planning to retrieve them when he returned. Has anyone checked with Mammoth Mountain lost and found to see if they have items that could be his? It's a long shot since the room wouldn't be in his name, nobody knows what the items are, they would be discarded if they had little value or went unclaimed, and the turn-in date could be any time after the 17th. FYI, many people check out on Sunday mornings to head home to LA or SF.
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SplitPants
Social climber
LA
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Aug 26, 2013 - 12:12pm PT
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Great point about the weather. I checked from 7/16-7/21 and nothing unusual except some rain on 7/21. http://www.wunderground.com/history/airport/KMMH/2013/7/21/DailyHistory.html
If anyone knows of a better research method let me know.
I think the question as to if any MM employees gave a ride to Matt is a good question to ask. I updated the timeline asking that question.
Tx
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Alpineholydog
Trad climber
Spring Tx
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Aug 26, 2013 - 12:13pm PT
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The missing link for me is where did Matt start his hike?? If it was Ritter where would Matt want to get dropped off? The book refers Devil Postpile as the starting point.
Personal I don't think Matt had enough time to summit and he had to turn around before it got to dark.
I agree. If it was me I would want to cap off an epic trip by doing one last hike after resting the previous day. I feel that given what he took he headed out toward Ritter and the Minerets. Logiclly if he went for Ritter he started at Agnew Meadows. He would have gone to Red's Meadow for The Minerets or Iron Mountain.
How did he get there?
Either walked, Caught a ride, or took public transportation which does not go up mountain till 7 ish. Anyone checked with Mammoth Taxi? They go up to trailheads early.
Have his friends expressed how he went about his hiking after they left. He climbed Clyde Mineret. How did he get there?
Inyo Craters seem so anticlimactic as a capper to a great trip. I think either foul play or a true illogical wildcard if those are his glasses.
I think Cragman is looking in a great spot. Has Iron Mountain been checked? Ritter and Banner Saddle make sense out of Agnew given his conditioning but River trail/Shadow lake area is highly trafficked. Sounds like the Ritter Banner notch has been searched well and I was in area last year. Even with a fall there are only a few places to search as its a small snowfield.
Again I think a victory lap near the Minerets for him would also be very likely. How would he get there though?
I will be up in Garnet/Nydiver area next week and glass/ search the notch again.
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tdg119
Social climber
Northampton, PA
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Aug 26, 2013 - 12:25pm PT
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+1 to alpine. Matt would be looking for an epic cap to his trip after sitting still for a day. Agree, if the glasses, big if, are his, it ups the foul play scenario. Cragman is in the right area based on the facts we know. - Ron
Question: would a person with no hiking experience, in average shape, be of any help out there or not? I feel like I should be out there. - Ron
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Aug 26, 2013 - 12:35pm PT
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Likely left later than 3 AM. My hunch is he got up early, checked his cell for messages at 2:50 and turned it off. Had a bite to eat, packed for the day and left camp. Whether or not to a pre-arranged ride I can't guess.
So he's ready to go by 4 AM?
I also guess that's about the time Mammoth Mt maintenance personnel head up to work. He'd been there long enough to figure out the early morning traffic patterns.
This hypothesis fits a reasonable time line.
If you haven't read Matt's journal from 2006 it's illuminating.
Matt didn't ever stop taking big hikes and climbs. Day after day, car in the shop or not.
He took big hikes or runs (or both) every day but one from 6/18 to 6/30 2006. And drove a fair distance as well.
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=2207307&tn=0#msg2211327
Ron, I've mentioned it a couple of times. I think inquiries at Mammoth Mt about employees arriving early on the 17th would be useful. Which of course can be done by phone. It might require approval from Mammoth Police.
I don't know if it would ease your mind but the hikes up Minarets trail or Lake Ediza trail are on good trails and beautiful. With an early start, either is reasonable to do from the trailhead in a moderate to long day. IF you're fit. Ediza is the easier goal. Another pair of eyes looking along the trails can't hurt.
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Alpineholydog
Trad climber
Spring Tx
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Aug 26, 2013 - 12:36pm PT
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I would not have walked to those trailheads from Shady Rest. There would be no point as walking there or taking later trasportation would get you there at the same time.
If he walked the road from the Mountain Resort to Agnew is narrow. Dicey when 2 busses pass at same time. Would make sense to check the downhill side of that road. If he did walk at night could be hit and thrown. Some steep fall offs on that road.
All searchers and Family in our thoughts and prayers.
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crankster
Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
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Aug 26, 2013 - 12:36pm PT
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Ron,
I would wait for Cragman's TR and the glasses outcome before making a move. With a seach area so wide and no experience I think you'd be better off manning the computer and working clues from that angle.
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mattyj
Mountain climber
Truckee
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Aug 26, 2013 - 12:41pm PT
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getting up at 3 AM to start that hike actually sounds about right to me if he intended to climb the glacier before it got too soft.
I'd need more time, but it's certainly doable to start (for Ritter/Banner) on the 7AM shuttle. The saddle snowfield in particular doesn't get much sun - and unlike winter mountaineering, I've personally never been concerned about getting off the summer snowpack before it softens in midday.
I still have no idea how to piece together 1) heavy boots and step-in crampons 2) technical tool as opposed to a mountaineering axe 3) 3AM phone activation 4) lack of bivvy gear and 5) reliance on hitching and public transit into a coherent story. But I doubt he'd need to get underway at 3AM for the popular objectives out of Mammoth.
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tdg119
Social climber
Northampton, PA
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Aug 26, 2013 - 12:47pm PT
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@alpine - I dont believe in psychics but supposedly the one who has found people before said we was on a narrow road and either hit by a car or fell over a guard rail into a ravine.
Ron
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Dropline
Mountain climber
Somewhere Up There
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Aug 26, 2013 - 12:48pm PT
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Question: would a person with no hiking experience, in average shape, be of any help out there or not? I feel like I should be out there. - Ron
Second what Crankster said. Let those with solid mountaineering skills and who also know the terrain look.
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crankster
Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
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Aug 26, 2013 - 12:52pm PT
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1) heavy boots and step-in crampons 2) technical tool as opposed to a mountaineering axe
Matty, remember, Matt was using the gear he had, not necessarily the most ideal gear on any particular day. He had 2 technical axes and took one, which indicates he'd headed to a climb where he might encounter moderate snow/ice, otherwise, he'd have taken both his tools. The big boots were the only boots he had with him that accepted crampons, apparently.
I think Cragman has been searching the area with the highest probability, based on everything I have been reading for the last month - assuming the glasses turn out not to be Matt's. Personally, I would have been staying closer to Mammoth with my car about to be ready, however, Matt sounds like someone who was ready for a big adventure on any given day.
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mattyj
Mountain climber
Truckee
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Aug 26, 2013 - 12:53pm PT
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Question: would a person with no hiking experience, in average shape, be of any help out there or not? I feel like I should be out there. - Ron
In the area where the glasses were found, probably - but if they are proven to be Matt's, the most productive thing at that point is to try (through online forums, media, etc) to locate the person who found them. Whether they were lying on the ground near the craters or found way out in the owens river headwaters wilderness has a huge impact on the search area.
Up near Ritter, Banner and the Minarets - definitively not. I have some stories from when my friends and I were first starting to get into class 3 / 4 terrain - even as someone who grew up backpacking, there were, shall we say, some learning experiences. For someone with zero outdoors experience, heading into an area with rockfall, steep snow/ice and routefinding challenges, all while focused on searching as well as simply navigating the terrain, it's just not worth the risk.
Edit: Crankster, I know that, although it sounds like he had strap-on crampons with him as well. My point was that the individual pieces of evidence keep pulling us in directions that don't mesh with the rest of the story, and we can't get too hung up any one of them - whether that's the 3AM phone check or the technical boots.
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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Aug 26, 2013 - 12:53pm PT
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Wait a second, you don't 'believe' in physics?
Really?
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tdg119
Social climber
Northampton, PA
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Aug 26, 2013 - 12:58pm PT
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No mumbo jumbo hocus pocus for me. You can read in what ever you want to these so called visions, where were these guys on sept 10th 2001 if they are psychic.
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tdg119
Social climber
Northampton, PA
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Aug 26, 2013 - 12:59pm PT
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Ohh, lol. Just got it... Stupid iPad spell check
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synesthesiac
Trad climber
Davis, CA
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Aug 26, 2013 - 01:02pm PT
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The missing link to this scenario is any evidence he had any bivy gear with him, at least a sleeping bag liner or simiar. The High Sierra evenings were fairly mild on July 16th - I'm guessing lows in the mid-high 40's. However, I'm pretty sure anyone catching a ride to the Agnew Meadow trailhead the night before would at least have a light sleeping bag with him, probably a light pad, too.
Yeah, I was wondering about this too, but when I saw the photo of the pack with what appeared to be the removable pad it occurred to me that he might have just planned on using his pack as a half-length bivy bag along with the pad. Not exactly the most comfortable way to bed down, but if he only wanted a few hours of shut-eye then maybe it would make sense (also if he wanted to try it out in a mild setting before counting on it in more serious alpine setting).
Checking on headlight...
If he didn't bring a headlamp, I would question whether he ever left the campground aiming to do a big day. He seems too experienced to make a mistake like that. Of course, I'll bet most of us have more than one LED headlamp floating around in our gear so this might be hard to determine with any certainty.
What about a lightweight down puffy? I doubt he'd do the trailhead bivy that I'm imagining unless he had something like that with him.
On a different line of inquiry, has anyone inquired of the sysadmin(s) at summitpost to try to determine what pages he browsed on the 16th. Since he posted with his username, the web server logs probably contain his IP address for that post. Looking at what other pages were browsed, or search queries made from the same IP at about the same time might shed some light on local peaks that he may have been focused on.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Aug 26, 2013 - 01:02pm PT
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reliance on hitching and public transit into a coherent story. But I doubt he'd need to get underway at 3AM for the popular objectives out of Mammoth. Matt had hitched rides to climbs in the past when he had car trouble. See my link above.
He might leave at 4 AM if he had a pre-arranged ride or had allowed extra time to thumb a ride.
It's clear that Matt's phone was in the vicinity of Mammoth Mt at 3AM
But where was his phone??
If only one tower caught the signal, there is no directional information. Triangulation requires at least two towers.
It was within range of the beam pattern of the tower on top of Mammoth Mt. Consider that Verizon would have more interest in providing coverage from that tower down into Mammoth town than into the uninhabited and roadless wilderness to the north and west of the peak. (coverage area costs $$)
He might have still been at camp or anywhere along the 3 miles from Shady Rest to Minarets Summit (just west of the ski area western parking lot).
Verizon COULD provide a detailed map of the beam pattern. They DEFINITELY have this essential technical information. Has this been sought?
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Dropline
Mountain climber
Somewhere Up There
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Aug 26, 2013 - 01:09pm PT
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Checking on headlight...
I wouldn't read too much into finding a headlamp among Matt's camping gear that he left behind. As Synesthesiac says, most of us have more than one. Car camping, where weight is not an issue, I'd for sure have two with me and that seems to be a common practice.
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crankster
Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
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Aug 26, 2013 - 01:12pm PT
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it sounds like he had strap-on crampons with him as well.
Matty, I agree there is so much that doesn't make sense. If he had strap-on crampons (see pic), which are able go over a light hiking shoe, and didn't take them it leads me to believe he'd headed for steeper terrain.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Aug 26, 2013 - 01:12pm PT
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Inyo Crater is about a mile from the paved scenic loop road and a tourist area accessible by car with the main feature being a small but deep crater surrounded by forest...The craters are an ATV use area that share logging roads with Mt. Bikers and wood cutters...I can't imagine a climber or hiker venturing out there as the terrain is relatively flat , boring , and several miles hiking distance from Shady Rest...? The glasses may just be lost tourist swag...?
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crusher
climber
Santa Monica, CA
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Aug 26, 2013 - 01:17pm PT
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I asked this upthread but no one answered or knew (and Ron maybe you can do this from home) - does the Main Lodge (Mammoth Mountain Ski area, which is near/across from Minaret Summit and entrance booth to the road down to Red's Meadows) have outside security cameras? If so, do any point towards the booth and/or potentially where the shuttle down to Red's is boarded?
I think it's worth checking - if there is footage of that area the police should be looking at it from overnight 16th into 17th. Esp. if it's possible that Matt got up really early, somehow got himself to the road down, turned on his phone to check time or check messages, then traveled down to the trailhead. Could be he walked down the road himself if it was in the middle of the night - I don't suppose there's much car traffic going down or up. People leave to go fishing really early too...
Has anyone in Mammoth been able to get a copy of the receipt yet from Rite Aid? Or have someone review their security camera footage? Still lagging on that...wish I could do something from here.
I hope Cragman and Cupcake are doing well...
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Aug 26, 2013 - 01:18pm PT
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Inyo Crater …..and several miles hiking distance from Shady Rest...? By road and official trail: Google Earth says 4.9 miles. 3.3 as the crow flies.
A long way in the wrong direction of the high peaks to lug your boots and crampons.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Aug 26, 2013 - 01:20pm PT
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crusher...The booths are about a mile up the road from the main lodge..I don't think there are any cameras at the booths..?
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mattyj
Mountain climber
Truckee
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Aug 26, 2013 - 01:28pm PT
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On a different line of inquiry, has anyone inquired of the sysadmin(s) at summitpost to try to determine what pages he browsed on the 16th.
I mentioned this a while back, but then the glasses thing happened and I think it got lost in the shuffle. Since no one has said anything, I'll contact them and find out.
Verizon COULD provide a detailed map of the beam pattern. They DEFINITELY have this essential technical information.
I don't pretend to be a guru on this stuff, and technical information is sadly hard to come by. But from what I've seen, even E911 locations can be off in mountainous terrain, and locations derived from tower data need to be taken with a very heavy grain of salt. Here's a map that shows everything with line of sight to a 100' tower atop Mammoth: http://bit.ly/14y9lm3. Cell signals aren't just line of sight, but it's a starting point.
Edit: link fixed.
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kenish
Gym climber
Orange County, CA
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Aug 26, 2013 - 01:34pm PT
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If only one tower caught the signal, there is no directional information. Triangulation requires at least two towers
A full cell site is 9-12 antennas in a triangle. (The antennas are not always on an actual tower, and all 3 sides of the triangle won't have antennas if 360 coverage isn't needed). The individual antennas have a pretty narrow pattern of 20-40 degrees. Direction from the cell site can be narrowed down since the antenna(s) that received the "ping" is recorded. The 3am ping, if accurate, was north of the site (and not east or west). That narrows it down to Main Lodge or Inyo Crater.
Distance from the cell site is calculated by the "time of flight" of the radio signal and/or the GPS info returned from the phone to the cell network. An "e911" feature is required on all phones made in the past 5 years or so. You're correct that 2 sites are required to pinpoint a phone that has older or no e911 technology.
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crusher
climber
Santa Monica, CA
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Aug 26, 2013 - 01:36pm PT
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RJ, thanks, I couldn't visualize how far it was.
I sort of doubt the booth would have cameras but maybe someone can ask. Imagine if there was footage and Matt was spotted on it?
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SplitPants
Social climber
LA
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Aug 26, 2013 - 01:36pm PT
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FIELD UPDATE FROM CRAGMAN/DEAN**
All,
I just received the following text message and pictures from cragman/dean:
"Just reached Minaret glacier. Brutal winds for two days now adding to the challenging terrain. Nothing so far." He has also been in radio contact with a SAR member to double check on glasses. Since no word "We continue on......."
I have attached the pics cragman/dean sent.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Aug 26, 2013 - 01:36pm PT
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mattyj
unfortunately your link doesn't work for me.
All the cell tower (in fact all commercial transmitters) beam patterns are on file with the FCC and public record. The TV/radio stations are easy to find. That doesn't make the cell tower patterns easy to get.
kenish, good info.
Unfortunately Matt had a pretty old phone.
Good pic from Cragman (Dean).
The first pic is taken from the traverse I mentioned up thread. Closer to the Ritter (north) end. Cecile Lake in center, Iceberg lake on left, Volcanic Ridge in center distance, the glacier out of view up and right. Climber is approaching the first (and largest) of the deep chasms that drain the glacier down to Iceberg.
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SplitPants
Social climber
LA
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Aug 26, 2013 - 01:37pm PT
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Second photo received
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SplitPants
Social climber
LA
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Aug 26, 2013 - 01:43pm PT
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HighTraverse see below
Cell information provided to the family summarized:
>From 8:12 AM to 3:06 PM cell phone registered:
Lat 37.638167 Lon -118.961611, 1601 Meridian Blvd, Mammoth Lakes, Ca.
Directly south of the library. Directly north a mile or two from where Matt was camping.
> From 4:29 PM to 4:35 PM cell phone registered:
Lat 37.630528 Log -119-033078, 5920 Minaret Rd, Mammoth Lakes, Ca, top of Mammoth Mountain.
This is the last phone call from Matt’s phone (per MLPD no more pings after the 16th of July at 4:35 pm)
> 07/17 5:53 AM ET / 2:53 AM PT Text Received
> Per MLPD: 2:48 pm, July 17, 2013, 39 Pinecrest, Mammoth Lakes, Ca, Verizon building and tower. This address is the main Verizon building/tower in Mammoth Lakes. There is no activity after the 16th of July, as indicated on my Verizon emergency request re: Greene’s cell phone, his phone was turned off/powered off. The 2:48 pm is not a ping, because there is no Lat & Lon indicated.
[EDIT: Added] Per MLPD: Verizon nor any other cellular service provider ping text, it pings the telephone when the telephone is on, not turned off.
[EDIT Added:] Per MLPD: From July 17, 2013 to July 30, 2013, 39 Pinecrest, Mammoth Lakes, Ca
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SplitPants
Social climber
LA
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Aug 26, 2013 - 01:45pm PT
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MCGuzzy/MattyJ
I don't think he had strap on crampons. Double check with posts by SplitPants. She is trying to keep an up to date inventory of the items Matt had with him, as well as a verifiable timeline. We have been corroborating it with Jeg (Jill and John)the people Matt was climbing with when his car broke down and whom retrieved his belongings when he went missing.
My notes indicate the following in regards to crampons:
Black diamond step-ins, horizontal front points with black and yellow strap. Approximately 10 years old and heavily used. The model name is not known.
o Step-ins that were borrowed from a friend/John
o If there was a possibility of snow, Matt would have most likely taken crampons just in-case.
The crampons were old. Jill is trying to research the model.
Tx
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Aug 26, 2013 - 01:45pm PT
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Great info. So Matt's phone was definitely "in town" at 2:53 AM.
Black diamond step-ins, horizontal front points with black and yellow strap. Approximately 10 years old and heavily used. I've got a pair of these. Perfectly suitable for anything in the region. That's what I would take.
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LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
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Aug 26, 2013 - 01:49pm PT
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Based on Matt’s accounts of earlier trips and their own experience, HighTraverse and others have argued convincingly that after taking an easy day in town it’s likely that Matt sought some big objective, such as something in the Banner/Ritter area or Iron Mountain. But we don’t know for sure. Here are some questions:
-People refer to that as a possible victory lap. Is it known what Matt planned to do after the car was fixed? Was he planning to join friends elsewhere?
-Is it likely that Matt would have mentioned a really big climb to family or friends? Or did he not talk about such things with them – to avoid alarming them, or because for him climbing big objectives was routine?
-Is he likely to have planned such a big day in advance, or might he have made a spur of the moment decision that morning? (I think him being up at 2:53am makes that very unlikely, as he apparently wasn’t usually up at that hour. Also, mightn’t he have needed extra supplies for a big hike/climb? What did he usually bring to eat on such hikes/climbs?)
-Some planning was definitely needed if he was going to get a ride -- hard to hitch at 4 am. I do hope people can talk with the Mammoth employees. Are there some objectives such that he could have hitched a ride partway and then walked to a trailhead?
-I’m not familiar with the area – which road is it that goes out to Agnew Meadows? I hope someone can check the drop-offs next to it, in case Matt was walking there and was hit by a car or bus. (If he was hit by a bus, you’d think someone on the bus would have noticed. Also, as someone pointed out, assuming it was a public bus, he could have waited and simply taken the bus.)
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Dan Watson
climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Aug 26, 2013 - 01:52pm PT
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I just got the results of the inspection of the glasses found on Friday at the trail head to Inyo Craters. The glasses are store bought "cheaters" and not prescription lenses similar to Matt's prescription. So the glasses appear to be a dead end.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Aug 26, 2013 - 01:56pm PT
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Thanks...Chief...!
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SplitPants
Social climber
LA
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Aug 26, 2013 - 01:56pm PT
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Thanks for the update Chief!
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
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Aug 26, 2013 - 01:58pm PT
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Well I just posted my impatient rant as the chief responded. OOOOooooopppsss!
I don't know. Gut feeling. I would still search the area. Too many strange coincidences from multiple people. How common are those store bought glasses that look nearly exactly like Matt's even if they aren't prescription but only cheap reading glasses or "cheaters"? Really weird.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Aug 26, 2013 - 02:09pm PT
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LAHiker
Are there some objectives such that he could have hitched a ride partway and then walked to a trailhead? Yes. Starting from the top of the road a mile west of Mammoth Mt ski area adds about 5miles downhill to either Agnew Meadow trailhead. For Matt that's a little over an hour. Another 30 minutes to Reds Meadow TH. Someone giving him a lift would likely drive the extra 30 - 45 minutes round trip and deliver him to the TH (I would).
To get to the possible climbs indicated by taking his boots/crampons/axe, he would almost certainly plan on a pre-dawn start.
-I’m not familiar with the area – which road is it that goes out to Agnew Meadows? This is the road that runs past Shady Rest campground, through town and then passes the ski area. Google Earth will show it.
I hope someone can check the drop-offs next to it, in case Matt was walking there and was hit by a car or bus. (If he was hit by a bus, you’d think someone on the bus would have noticed. Also, as someone pointed out, assuming it was a public bus, that he would have waited and simply taken the bus.) The only public transportation is a shuttle bus from the ski resort to both trailheads. This bus only runs during "busy" hours. I don't know the exact hours but I'm sure someone here does. There would likely be a few private cars going down the road early in the morning. Matt wouldn't have waited for the bus, he'd have just kept walking the extra 30 or 45 minutes, all downhill. He may well have planned to get back early enough to catch the last bus back. Or to walk/thumb it if he missed it.
It's clear that Matt thought nothing of big days in the mountains….even relished them.
July 17, just past the longest day of the year, good weather. Could easily have planned to be out 14 hours or more. That reasonably gets him out to the Minarets/Ritter/Banner, do some "messing about" on the glaciers or even a medium climb (Ritter SE Glacier etc) and back.
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mattyj
Mountain climber
Truckee
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Aug 26, 2013 - 02:11pm PT
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A quick note on crampons. from jeg upthread:
He had 2 sets of crampons. His strap ons were with his stuff. The step in crampons he borrowed from my husband for the summer are missing.
Point being that he chose an especially burly configuration for the 17th, one that's (IMO) unnecessary for the popular summits we've been focused on. Again, I don't want to focus on that one decision to the exclusion of all other evidence.
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crusher
climber
Santa Monica, CA
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Aug 26, 2013 - 02:28pm PT
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Ok so we have results on the glasses. I have to say I did think it was strange that Matt would have gone to the craters. Maybe on a rest day to just check them out and they are "on the way", located on Scenic Route which itself is just off the road to Main Lodge and the road down to Red's Meadows (trailheads location Matt would use for Minarets). But the craters just didn't seem a likely place for Matt to go other than to just futz around on a rest day.
Still would like to know if Main Lodge has any cameras out facing Minarets Rd. - to see if any cars went by late on the 16th and into the 17th.
The shuttles to Red's Meadows, I believe begin at 7:00 am and end at 7:00 pm.
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mattyj
Mountain climber
Truckee
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Aug 26, 2013 - 02:40pm PT
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Unfortunately the SummitPost access logs are a dead end, their log files were autodeleted by the time anyone knew Matt was missing.
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SplitPants
Social climber
LA
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Aug 26, 2013 - 02:41pm PT
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NEW UPDATE FROM CRAGMAN/DEAN
"Heading slightly down to the toe of the steepest part of the glacier. Wind here in the lee not so bad."
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
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Aug 26, 2013 - 02:42pm PT
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The glasses are commonly sold:
Personal Optics:
http://higcapital.com/portfolio/company/71
Personal Optics is one of the leading marketers and distributors of eyewear in the United States. Based in Fullerton, California, the Company is a major distributor of non-prescription reading glasses and popular-priced sunglasses to grocery and drug store chains and mass merchants. Through its Lantis Eyewear division, Personal Optics also designs and supplies sunglasses, optical frames and related eyewear accessories to multiple retail channels, ranging from value-oriented chains to premium retailers. The Company has a diverse portfolio of licenses including Dockers, ESPN, Caribbean Joe, X-Games, and Mary-Kate and Ashley.
MG ...
All the more reason to find out what that purchase at was RiteAid! My wife wears contacts.. and has a bad astigmatism, then uses cheaters with them when she is reading up close.
Yes, what did he exactly buy at RiteAid?
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SplitPants
Social climber
LA
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Aug 26, 2013 - 02:43pm PT
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NEW UPDATE FROM CRAGMAN/DEAN
"Looking down into the throat of the main gully below the glacier.....a treacherous place!!!!"
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SplitPants
Social climber
LA
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Aug 26, 2013 - 02:45pm PT
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NEW UPDATE FROM CRAGMAN/DEAN
In spite of the tragic nature of all of this......I believe this is my calling....I'm having the time of my life. So....dang....spectacular!"
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Aug 26, 2013 - 02:49pm PT
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Here are two Google Earth images I annotated.
Shady Rest CG to Minaret Summit.
Minaret Summit: Road from summit to Agnew Mdw TH and Reds Meadow TH
Trails from TrailHeads to Minaret Lake and Cecile
and to Ediza, Iceberg and Cecile
BLUE: Minarets Road
YELLOW: Official trails
RED: cross country or rough tracks.
My traverse from Cecile to Ritter in red. I did it with significantly more snow than this.
Image is Sept 2008. From Cragman's photos there is currently much less snow than in this pic.
Corrections welcomed
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LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
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Aug 26, 2013 - 02:50pm PT
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Thanks for the clarifications, HighTraverse! ETA: and thanks for the very helpful annotated satellite images!
I take your point that someone giving Matt a ride is likely to have driven him to the trailhead, though could they have been a ski resort employee who was late to an early shift? I have no idea when such a workday begins. Is the narrow part with the drop-offs the part west of the ski resort?
What I'm getting from people's comments is that there's a good chance that Matt might have planned a big day but not mentioned it to family and friends. Based on his earlier trip report, it sounds like he did strike up a lot of conversations with people on his trips, but that he also may sometimes have just gone off on his own without telling anyone.
Does anyone know whether Mat would ever leave a note about his plans when he was going on a big climb? If one drives somewhere, it's logical to leave a note on or in one's car, but given that Matt didn't have his car, not as clear where to put a note -- pin it to the tent? Put it just inside? Clearly such a note wasn't found, but because his belongings were placed in storage by the campground host before his friends knew he was missing, it could have gotten lost in the shuffle, as people have noted.
I wish more info could be gotten from the campground. I think the police interviewed the people at the neighboring campsites, but those campers had left before the 17th anyway, right? If Matt hated campground noise, he would have tried to leave quietly, so it would be telling if there had been some sort of commotion. Or an innocent commotion might have woken him up and thus confused our timeline.
Ideally, it would be good if more people in the campground could be interviewed, especially those who were there on days between the 15th and the 18th and who were near Matt's campsite or in sites between it and the bathroom and it and the way he might have gone on the morning of the 17th.
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phylp
Trad climber
Millbrae, CA
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Aug 26, 2013 - 03:00pm PT
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I have refrained from comment up to this point.
When you get up at 3 am and turn your phone on, it's most likely because you have set your wrist watch alarm to get an alpine start on a big day. When you're camping, without your car, and you're going to the library for your internet and phone charging, you most likely turn your phone completely off to save the battery when you don't need it. It's common for many people to check their phones for messages in the AM. Turn it on, check for messages, turn it off.
From Shady Rest to the ski area is 5.5 miles. From there down Minaret Rd to the Agnews Meadow Trailhead is another 4.3 miles. I tend to agree with all the reasoning that makes Ritter/Banner/Minarets a likely day trip destination, but you don't start a day like that by walking 9.8 miles. You try to hitch-hike. If he had had a rental bike the security deposit would have showed up on his credit card account(s).
Non-climber friends who want to search in the area could find out which of the local business on the strip between the campground and the ski area might have staff coming to work at that time of day. The only kind I can think of might be restaurant personnel at places where they have breakfast service, or on site baking.
The road from the ski area down to Agnew is narrow, windy and with steep, treacherous, steep dropoffs. If Matt was walking down that road when it was still dark, he could have been hit by a car. It would be dangerous to walk the road to search with binocs from the side. I don't even know if it would be allowed. But it could be done.
From Shady Rest to route 395 is only 2.8 miles. There is always traffic on 395 even in the middle of the night. But given that going with this hitchhiking scenario to parts unknown opens the search up to an impossibly wide number of scenarios for locations and criminal and accidental mishaps, it doesn't add an value to pursue anything concrete.
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phylp
Trad climber
Millbrae, CA
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Aug 26, 2013 - 03:01pm PT
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Fred and LA hiker posted as I was typing... similar ideas.
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LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
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Aug 26, 2013 - 03:07pm PT
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Klimmer, while I increasingly think the glasses are likely to have been a red herring, I do think it's worth finding out whether Matt ever wore reading glasses (e.g., whether in addition to being nearsighted, he was beginning to have presbyopia -- a decreased ability to see things close up).
I looked on Rite Aid's website but didn't see any Personal Optics reading glasses. In any event, it will be good when we know what Matt purchased at Rite Aid on the 16th!
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jeg
Social climber
center valley,Pa
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Aug 26, 2013 - 03:13pm PT
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The people at his camp site were interviewed.
Summit post was contacted early on, no leads, he had no PM,emails,etc..
Crampons are definitely Step in...
No cameras at booth or shuttles, or shuttle pick up area
2:53am was a text received, can not be determined where(texts are not pinged), also does not mean he was awake, just that his phone reeived a text.
High Traverse...Thanks for all the comments, they are always right on!!
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jeg
Social climber
center valley,Pa
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Aug 26, 2013 - 03:21pm PT
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Still working in Rite Aid purchase.
Matt did not need or use reading glasses.
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LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
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Aug 26, 2013 - 03:26pm PT
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MGuzzy -- As far as I can tell, Rite Aid doesn't sell those reading glasses online, but I don't know whether they have other things in-store.
Jill -- thanks for clarifying that Matt didn't use reading glasses. Sounds to me as if the glasses are a red herring.:(
Regarding the people at the campground, I thought that (in addition to presumably the campground host), only the people in the adjacent campsites had been interviewed, and that they had not been there on the 17th. (I thought that was in some communication from the police.)
I'm also confused re the text. I thought the phone had to be on for the tower to know a text had been received. If the text really was received at 2:53am PDT, is that when it was sent? That would be 5:53 EDT and 2:53am PDT -- neither seem that likely. Also, I had thought it was a text from the PA climbing gym guy the night before... Maybe I missed something here.
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synesthesiac
Trad climber
Davis, CA
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Aug 26, 2013 - 03:29pm PT
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Unfortunately the SummitPost access logs are a dead end, their log files were autodeleted by the time anyone knew Matt was missing.
Dang. It was a long shot anyway, but thanks for following up on that!!
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SplitPants
Social climber
LA
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Aug 26, 2013 - 03:29pm PT
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HighTravers as always +2!
All,
Thinking/typing out loud here. Does anyone think it would be of value to have some boots on the ground in town to help research some of this stuff? Perhaps a group of people that can at least check the alternate approaches into the Ritter/Banner area (since cragman approaches from different area). A part of me thinks that if we have some folks that can work/research leads in town, canvass MM employees (obviously with permission/help from MLPD). What I am getting at is covering the town and other possible "easy" entry points (e.g. road from Mammoth to Agnew).
Also, the Rite-Aid transaction, campground registry and the family access to Matts Hotmail account is bugging me a bit, especially after his friend just yesterday mentioned Matt often gets partners from forums. If he located a potential partner on one of those forums I would think the conversation went through PMs which in turn went to Matts email.
If they don't find Matt soon one window of opportunity might be the weekend of Sept 6 perhaps. MM is having the Kamikaze games so most all staff will be working. Wouldn't hurt to float pics and do a bit of canvassing.
Anyone have any thoughts??????
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SplitPants
Social climber
LA
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Aug 26, 2013 - 03:41pm PT
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UPDATE FROM CRAGMAN/DEAN
"Beginning our decent. Feel we've achieved high POS......at least 70 percent. Wind is coming up again......completely brutal."
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LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
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Aug 26, 2013 - 03:42pm PT
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Regarding the Hotmail account, I gather it's the security questions that are the obstacle. (I'm assuming that this implies the password is known. It's possible that several tries at the password are what made the account start coughing up security questions.)
Two thoughts: might a slightly wider circle of friends of Matt be able to come up with the answers to those questions? Or can the family get some kind of injunction to get into the account?
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Aug 26, 2013 - 03:47pm PT
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Updated Google Earth map. Closeup of my traverse from Cecile to Ritter.
Cragman is right on it. Added Red pin for the location of his pic "Looking down into the throat of the main gully below the glacier.....a treacherous place!!!!"
The gully is just to the right of the pin
EDIT: I hesitated adding my traverse route. I rate it a dangerous place even for experienced climbers. I'm sure Cragman will have more to post about it soon.
Awesome view from Cragman looking down the gully to Iceberg Lake. Chasm still full of snow/ice at its root. This didn't show in Tom Cochrane's aerial pics.
The steepness and height of the cliffs and the loose rubble all along that traverse are evident.
Note that there's another cliff band up and to the left, just past the long ridge coming down towards Iceberg.
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tdg119
Social climber
Northampton, PA
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Aug 26, 2013 - 03:53pm PT
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Per Matts hotmail. the security question answer is an obvious one that anyone in the family would know. but for some strange reason its not working. we tried caps, etc...No way Microsoft will give us access without a subpoena. i have some friends that went to MIT, lets just say looked into it and came up empty. ~Ron
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SplitPants
Social climber
LA
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Aug 26, 2013 - 03:54pm PT
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MGuzzy
Good thoughts 'Pants. I've wondered more than once if there is anyone local in MM that could be used to chase down leads. It seems they are mostly in the coulairs and pinnacles where I'd rather be.
Thanks. We are not "local" (though we used to live there.......LOL actually about 50 feet from the verizon center/tower on pinecrest. I often parked my truck there because the snow plows create large berms on that street in the winter blocking me from getting to the mountain lol).
We usually go up every other weekend for 3 days during the summer and every weekend in the winter. Sucks not living up there anymore. Part of me thinks that we need some representation for Matt in town that can research stuff and work with MLPD and also do some basic hiking on the trails leading up to the big stuff that cragman/dean and crew. Basically a small army of regular people that can handle the basics and hiking and checking trail heads. Really the best weather window is between now and mid Sept...been an unusually mild summer and in talking to my friends up there it is turning to an early fall.
Dunno. thoughts?
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Aug 26, 2013 - 03:55pm PT
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The agnew road has plenty of places for a pedestrian to dodge cars and Matt would have seen headlights and heard any approaching car with time to sidestep..IMHO
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SplitPants
Social climber
LA
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Aug 26, 2013 - 03:56pm PT
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Ron
Per Matts hotmail. the security question answer is an obvious one that anyone in the family would know. but for some strange reason its not working. we tried caps, etc...No way Microsoft will give us access without a subpoena. i have some friends that went to MIT, lets just say looked into it and came up empty. ~Ron
Have you tried accessing the email account from Matt's computer at home or his work? The reason I am asking as browsers give users options to save their passwords. It is a long shot. There are other "alternatives" you could try. Also, have you asked MLPD if they can issue a search warrant to Microsoft (who owns Hotmail I believe)? With a valid search warrant I think you can get the information in about 48 hours or so.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Aug 26, 2013 - 04:01pm PT
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Minarets area should be open into mid October. Storms before that might bring some snow but not likely too much for travel. Mid to late October is often the very best time in the High Sierra. IF you don't let a storm catch you. Then you could be in real trouble.
I might be able to get up there the weekend of 6 Sept to have a look around.
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tdg119
Social climber
Northampton, PA
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Aug 26, 2013 - 04:05pm PT
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That is another thing, Matt did not have a computer. At least we did not find one in his house. We fould a wireless router (boxed up, old and looked like it has not been used in a long time), but no computer, no disks, no flash drives, nothing pc related.
We checked his office at school, no personal computer there either (which makes sense it was summer break). But how in this day and age does someone not have a computer? Thats why he would go to the library to use the computer. He was not really a 'Techy' more of a book worm. He had tons of books in his house - most were either math books (for his job) or climbing and hiking books. ~Ron
EDIT - I am also guessing it is why he used hotmail. one of those that work anwhere accounts.
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SplitPants
Social climber
LA
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Aug 26, 2013 - 04:06pm PT
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UPDATE FROM CRAGMAN/DEAN
"Starting to get lower and will lose signal soon. Will likely come out of the BC tonight. Found a glove......WAY too old to be his:( "
[EDIT] Cragman/Dean said he would text me as they come out of the BC tonight.
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Alpineholydog
Trad climber
Spring Tx
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Aug 26, 2013 - 04:08pm PT
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I may have projected the term "victory lap" onto Matt. I was just thinking that I would be very satisfied with all the climbs he did and relieved to be getting the back on the road. I would however wanted to get one last taste my last day if able. Especially after to tending to little tasks and resting the day before.
As far as the clip in crampons vs lace up... He might have had trouble with the laces or just felt more secure in the clipons and took them for comfort or perceived security even on a climb that was not too technical regarding ice and snow. Speculation I know.
What makes sense is that he left camp well prepared for a day hike that at least had one snow field. Axe might have been for security as well.
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SplitPants
Social climber
LA
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Aug 26, 2013 - 04:08pm PT
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Ron,
Thanks for the explanation. Your update also gives us great insight into Matt:)
I have some "thoughts" if you like feel free to send me a PM so we can take offline.
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LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
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Aug 26, 2013 - 04:22pm PT
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MGuzzy, that's interesting, but is a low-tech person likely to have used such substitutions?
Could Matt have simply gotten his wires crossed in an answer to one of the security questions? I sometimes need to answer security questions for an account associated with a relative (with their permission, of course!) The relative made an understandable mistake in their answer to one of the questions -- a question whose answer they know perfectly well. It's always hard for me to remember that the wrong answer is the one I need to give...
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tdg119
Social climber
Northampton, PA
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Aug 26, 2013 - 04:25pm PT
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We tried the usual (numbers etc.) the account was actually set up by his sister when he got back from the peacecorps. Most likely, it looks like he changed his password but did not change his forgotten password question. ~ron
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tdg119
Social climber
Northampton, PA
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Aug 26, 2013 - 04:32pm PT
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its not a 'locked out' thing but prompting us for a password. trying to use the forgotten password to reset or bypass doesnt work.
Edit to clarify: we do not know the password. Hotmail gives you the option to answer 'security questions' in case you forget your password. like what is your favorite food. We type in 'Pizza','pizza','Pizza1, 'Pizz@1" etc...and all say incorrect (this is just an example not his real question)
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powderdan
Social climber
mammoth lakes
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Aug 26, 2013 - 04:33pm PT
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cragman or doug please contact me. im thinking of heading that way fri-sun.
530 207 9012
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SplitPants
Social climber
LA
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Aug 26, 2013 - 04:35pm PT
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Ron,
A few questions:
1. Are all of your attempts to get into the hotmail account from the same computer?
2. What computer operating system (OS) are you using?
3. What browser and browser version are you using (if you are not sure look on the menu up top and where it says Help select that and then go to about).
4. From your previous posts it sounds like you know the answer to the security question, but not the most current password he was using am I right?
5. Microsoft change some of the functionality for hotmail (they have been trying to get users to convert to outlook mail). I am doing some research, but I think after 3 failed attempts within 24 hours it may automatically lock you out of the account.
6. Can you try from a different computer? If not dump all of your temporary internet files, cache and cookies.....
If you could type out step by step what you are doing and what the return messages are displayed it might be helpful....
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SplitPants
Social climber
LA
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Aug 26, 2013 - 04:47pm PT
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MGuzzy +1
We are on the same page. As usual! The OS & Browser information along with screen captures would DEFINITELY help troubleshoot.
Ron/Tiffany
You can download a trial of a screen capture tool called snagit at
http://www.techsmith.com/snagit.html
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tdg119
Social climber
Northampton, PA
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Aug 26, 2013 - 04:52pm PT
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Ron,
A few questions:
1. Are all of your attempts to get into the hotmail account from the same computer? = No
2. What computer operating system (OS) are you using? = Tried 7 and Vista
3. What browser and browser version are you using (if you are not sure look on the menu up top and where it says Help select that and then go to about). = IE 8 & 9, Safari, Chrome and FireFox
4. From your previous posts it sounds like you know the answer to the security question, but not the most current password he was using am I right? = Correct
5. Microsoft change some of the functionality for hotmail (they have been trying to get users to convert to outlook mail). I am doing some research, but I think after 3 failed attempts within 24 hours it may automatically lock you out of the account. = we are not locked out.
6. Can you try from a different computer? If not dump all of your temporary internet files, cache and cookies.....
If you could type out step by step what you are doing and what the return messages are displayed it might be helpful....
1. We log on and enter his password, it says incorrect.
2. We select reset password, by answering his forgotten password question
3. The question is easy
4. We enter the answer, says incorrect
Called Microsoft a few times, they are a PITA. Like trying to answers from the CIA or something.
Also - me and tiffany are work in IT for a living so sometimes we tend to generalize about this stuff but we are following you 100% :)
LOL
EDIT- guess it didnt matter to red out the question..... ;|
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LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
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Aug 26, 2013 - 05:00pm PT
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Ron -- Sounds very frustrating! Have you guys tried filling out the "I can't use any of these options" questionnaire?
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SplitPants
Social climber
LA
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Aug 26, 2013 - 05:05pm PT
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Tiffany/Ron,
Sorry about the IT stuff, I wasn't sure of your background(s).
I have been doing some research and it looks like this happens sometimes when an account has been hacked (still reading through threads). And users had to fill out an ungodly long set of questions and submit to MS to get account back. Geesh...........
Still going to research.
Where is the NSA when you really need them:)
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SplitPants
Social climber
LA
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Aug 26, 2013 - 05:06pm PT
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QINTL +10!
Bingo
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jeg
Social climber
center valley,Pa
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Aug 26, 2013 - 05:08pm PT
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Not sure if this helps..
John never contacted him via hotmail only his work email. He didn't even know he had a hotmail account. He did not have a computer. John would only try and reach him via email during the school year. Otherwise it was texts and phone calls. During the school year they would email each other about the up coming weekend, so some where in the school he used a computer frequently.
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tdg119
Social climber
Northampton, PA
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Aug 26, 2013 - 05:08pm PT
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We tried that too, they want us to mail a notarized copy of the death certificate.
EDIT - we are still working them to get in, just a PITA and takes so long.
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Crazy Bat
Sport climber
Birmingham, AL & Seweanee, TN
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Aug 26, 2013 - 05:11pm PT
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Regarding the Hotmail account. It is obviously well known in his home town that he is missing. I would think the family could find a local judge who would be willing to issue a subpoena.
I sure hope so anyway.
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SplitPants
Social climber
LA
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Aug 26, 2013 - 05:18pm PT
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Tiffany/Ron,
Do you know if Matt's work email could be accessed when he was not in school say via webmail? If so based on the last comments I saw that might be something else to check as well.
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ß Î Ø T Ç H
Boulder climber
extraordinaire
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Aug 26, 2013 - 05:30pm PT
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eastside underground's comments about the Blue Crag area has merit. Years ago I almost bought the farm there on the lower snowfield. The fact that Matt had already been climbing/ hiking Mammoth Crest - he may have been attracted back for a closer look at the interesting rock, and ice over there. It seems to me that it would be a fairly easy outing for a search party to head up the Duck Pass trail, and then back NW toward several good vantage points on the ridge overlooking the Blue Crag area, to have a look with binocs etc.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
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Aug 26, 2013 - 05:38pm PT
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Is it possible for someone to walk over to RiteAid in Mammoth and see if they carry the brand, model, of "Personal Optics" reading glasses that were found at the Inyo Crater trailhead? And maybe the chums too?
Worth a shot. Maybe someone is already on it?
Edit:
You know in this day and age with the NSA sweeping everything up you would think it would be a no brainer to get all the info needed and then some ;-}
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SplitPants
Social climber
LA
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Aug 26, 2013 - 06:00pm PT
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MGuzzy
Makes sense. Wonder if he used his school account during the summer months?
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tdg119
Social climber
Northampton, PA
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Aug 26, 2013 - 06:09pm PT
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Just a thought..I know cragman wanted to see if Matt bought specific things at Rite-Aid. Glasses, First Aid stuff, other gear to help us get some direction.
What if we make a list of the things we think are relevant and then just go see what they cost? We know Matt is a 'simple' shopper, he would only buy 1 or 2 things at a time. We know what he spent there, so all we have to do is go there with a list of items and his credit card reciept and see what cost that much..its not 100% but if the glasses at ride cost 16.53 with tax, and we know he spent 16.53, then we may be able to say ok he bought these. Same for anything you guys think would be relevant.
I mean if he bought a candy bar and toothpaste its not going to help us anyway right?
lets just go look around and see what item costs what he spent. he is not the type to buy a bunch of little things, he is non-material, only buys essentials.
his house is a minimalist paradise. i mean the guy really has nothing but the basics. his kitchen was empty, he had salt and pepper in it - literally nothing else. his bathroom had 1 roll of TP. this is not just becasue he was traveling, this is how he always is. To save the environment, he doent even take a plastic or paper bag. My guess is he bought 1 thing that day. ~ Ron
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SplitPants
Social climber
LA
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Aug 26, 2013 - 06:16pm PT
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Ron,
I think many of us were wanting to know what Matt purchased there, but also the video from the purchase could have held clues as well (e.g. was he alone, what clothes was he wearing etc..).
Out of curiosity have you or Tiffany requested that MLPD issue any search warrants to help in finding Matt (e.g. search warrant for Rite Aid, Email, camp registry etc....)
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RM217
climber
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Aug 26, 2013 - 06:44pm PT
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I was looking at the summitpost.org link and searched his name in forums. Found a forum he responded to and then found another. Links below. Maybe you have already seen these? It does show that Matt posted 85 times (I think in forums only). I was able to find a couple more, but older ones, from 2010. I wonder if access can be gained to his account there...maybe in the "member area" it would show all the posts he made...and maybe there is a forum he posted on that would indicate where he was planning to go? Just a thought...??? I did do a forum search for Ritter/Banner. I didn't turn anything up.
Posted on June 28th
http://www.summitpost.org/phpBB3/post927240.html#p927240
Posted on July 8th
http://www.summitpost.org/phpBB3/palisades-conditions-t65093-30.html
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kenish
Gym climber
Orange County, CA
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Aug 26, 2013 - 06:55pm PT
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We know what he spent there, so all we have to do is go there with a list of items and his credit card reciept and see what cost that much..its not 100% but if the glasses at ride cost 16.53 with tax, and we know he spent 16.53, then we may be able to say ok he bought these. Same for anything you guys think would be relevant.
Suggested that a few days ago when his CC activity was posted. Sales tax in Mammoth Lakes is 8% so the $16.53 works backwards to an odd retail price ($15.30 in this case) He probably bought 2 or more items, and if some were non-taxable that makes it even harder to figure out.
The Chevron purchase after the first car repair is about 11 gallons and fits the previous fillups on the statement.
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KellyDoesntClimb
Social climber
Dunwoody, GA
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Aug 26, 2013 - 07:28pm PT
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Wait. The posts on the SP forum can't possibly be PT. He posted on 7/6/2013 at 0155AM? From whose computer or smartphone? What library is open at 2AM? And if it was ET, which is where *I* am and it could be correcting for, what library is open at 10 or 11PM? Not sure if it's 3 or 4 hours...
http://www.summitpost.org/phpBB3/palisades-conditions-t65093-30.html
and this, from http://www.summitpost.org/phpBB3/post927240.html#p927240: "I'd expect that you'll find mostly dry trails, and will be able to deal with any snow just by taking an ice axe and crampons and crossing snowfields early in the morning."
Ah, and *this* forum thinks I posted at 430, when it's *clearly* 730 where I am.
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Jeremy B.
climber
Northern California
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Aug 26, 2013 - 07:52pm PT
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Wait. The posts on the SP forum can't possibly be PT. He posted on 7/6/2013 at 0155AM? From whose computer or smartphone? What library is open at 2AM? And if it was ET, which is where *I* am and it could be correcting for, what library is open at 10 or 11PM? Not sure if it's 3 or 4 hours...
SummitPost, as far as I can tell displays UTC+1 times (8 hours ahead of Pacific Time) unless you are logged in, in which case it displays posts in your local time.
Edit: Matt's post on 7 July was at 5:55pm PDT, and his post on 28 Jun was at 10:27am PDT.
Edit 2: Sorry, the server is 8 hours ahead of PDT, not 7. I suspect someone else also made an error due to daylight saving, as the server appears 1 hour ahead of GMT.
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SplitPants
Social climber
LA
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Aug 26, 2013 - 08:02pm PT
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Kelly +10
Will update the timeline with your findings.
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Guest123
climber
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Aug 26, 2013 - 08:17pm PT
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I am not familiar with hotmail, but your screen shot shows outlook. I know they are both MS, but do they login through the same screen?
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tdg119
Social climber
Northampton, PA
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Aug 26, 2013 - 08:25pm PT
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NOTE FROM SUMMITPOST ADMIN: We have checked Matt's account to check PMs to see in any info might be found to aid in the search. Unfortunately no information of any kind was found. The correct last login date for Matt is July 16
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RM217
climber
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Aug 26, 2013 - 08:25pm PT
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@tdg119 Do you think SummitPost would allow you access to his member area. The "forum" posts do not show up under his profile, but may be in the member area. I did searches in certain forums and turned up those few (A few more...but way older). I searched for areas around Mammoth Lakes and also for various pcs of equipment. Under his name in the forum area, it shows that he made 85 posts, but they are not viewable to public, however, there must be more out there...just not sure what else to search for...
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LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
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Aug 26, 2013 - 09:18pm PT
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I agree that it would be good to get access to Matt's SummitPost account.
But, if (rather than searching within SummitPost), you Google the words mattgreene and summitpost (and resist Google's suggestion to turn it into "Matt Greene"), you can see a bunch of posts by Matt from various SummitPost forums, though they're organized by "relevance" rather than chronologically. Many are short posts in the "climber's log" section. Some pages don't contain posts by Matt but rather pages of threads from a forum that might also contain posts by Matt that also come up separately in the search.
If you add 2013 to your search, you get some posts by Matt from this year, but you also get a lot of posts from earlier years on climber's logs and other discussions that have also received posts this year.
If to the basic Google search mattgreene summitpost you add Ritter, or Banner, or Lyell, or Agnew, or Minarets you get nothing.
ETA: Looks like mattyj's list of Matt's topics on Summitpost gets at much of the same info and is better organized...
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RM217
climber
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Aug 26, 2013 - 09:26pm PT
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@LA Hiker...did that also in all the major search engines. (using summitt post and mattgreene...no space between words). It returned all the climbing log posts that are available through his profile on Summit. His forum posts are not available on his profile. I did a pretty exhaustive search of the California forums, and also general forums...I didn't turn anything else up. But, if the 85 posts is accurate, there's a bunch more there. I found posts dating back to 2007, but nothing more recent than the first two I posted earlier. Wonder if he was on any other hiking blogs???
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Jilli
Trad climber
Livermore, California/ Dunedin NZ
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Aug 26, 2013 - 09:30pm PT
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***UPDATE regarding Mammoth Mountaineering Supply & Gear Exchange:
As you might have read above, a few of us on here have thought it would be good to run a thorough search at the gear exchange for possibility that Matt's gear was sold there in the past ~6weeks. It is *highly* unlikely, yes, BUT it is worth to check out the records and tick off that possibility (and no need to comment on how unlikely it is please- don't want to hog up the forum with that speculation).
I have talked to my bestie who works there off & on but since she is posted up in their Mammoth shops lately, she is unbable to do the search herself at this time. Instead, a guy named Greg will check it out (an active Taco reader/user) and report back about it in the next few days I hope. The Gear Exchange keeps very detailed records of this stuff so not too daunting of a task to search for the below items in question. CHeers to Greg for making that happen. (and btw, this is not just perusing the shelves- this is checking all the paperwork)
Once again, yes it is a long shot and doesn't make any sense for a thief to sell gear there- but stranger things have happened.
ANd in case you missed the above conversation about this- the possibly spoken of is that Matt's gear was stolen from:
a. Matt himself (which wold indicate foul play)
b. His campsite on the 16th/17th (which could also indicate foul play)
c. His campsite during the week after the 16th (since tent was up for unknown amount of time before being stashed in storage at campground AND he was not reported missing for an entire week. (WHICH WOULD INDICATE HE DID NOT TAKE THOSE ITEMS AFTER ALL- meaning, not a big day, rather a "rest day" or something else.
So as you can see, it would help to know answers about this gear.
Here's the most updated list:
-Mountain Hardwear South Col 70liter
-La Sportiva Nepal Extreme's - size 11.5/12 - yellow (purchased Spring 2013)
-Petzl Quark Ice Axe (one of his two), no leash, silver with a bit of orange
PIC: http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=2195321&tn=1060
-Black Diamond crampons - horizontal front points, Step in, black & yellow strap. Approx.10years old, quite used.
Jilli
P.S. - I have found some pretty sweet deals at the Exchange over the years and find the YELP reviews a bit ridiculous!! It's a great shop offering an amazing service in the Eastside. If you want new gear and great one-on-one service, stick to Wilson's :)
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SplitPants
Social climber
LA
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Aug 26, 2013 - 09:35pm PT
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Jilli +10
Thanks so much for getting in contact with the gear exchange! Yes you are right they have some great deals in there (it is like a wonderful treasure hunt in that store!)
Will update my document accordingly. Thanks again.
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Jilli
Trad climber
Livermore, California/ Dunedin NZ
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Aug 26, 2013 - 09:37pm PT
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Oh and here are the pics of what is being searched for, thanks to SplitPants:
(this was already posted above, just posting again)
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LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
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Aug 26, 2013 - 09:38pm PT
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RM217 - I'm curious (and not used to searching SummitPost) -- which exact search on SummitPost led the search engine to say there were 85 posts? Does that maybe include the climber's log entries? I'm wondering if it's hits rather than posts, and if some are duplicates -- on Google one gets hits on a post as well as on a forum containing the post...
I do think that if Google doesn't come up with other SummitPost entries from 2013 besides the ones that have been found, they're probably not there. But I agree, it would be good to search other climber's forums.
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Jeremy B.
climber
Northern California
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Aug 26, 2013 - 09:58pm PT
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If Matt posted multiple times in a thread, that would help explain the difference in counts. Putting 'site:summitpost.org inurl:phpBB3 "by mattgreene"' into Google gives 61 hits, and only 37 if I include the year (2013).
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Jilli
Trad climber
Livermore, California/ Dunedin NZ
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Aug 26, 2013 - 10:02pm PT
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I just got the results of the inspection of the glasses found on Friday at the trail head to Inyo Craters. The glasses are store bought "cheaters" and not prescription lenses similar to Matt's prescription. So the glasses appear to be a dead end.
So that's it? Chief says it's a no go and everyone just calls it a dead end? Keep in mind that MLPD is swamped at the moment and not much time to look into this unfortunately. HOW "not similar" are they? Why is it not a possibility that Matt bought "cheaters" like other people have mentioned here...?
Best way to check further? RITE AID. The purchase records for 16th need to be found- i know everyone has already said this over and over again but WHAT is happening with it?? (urgency in my voice is out of desire for Matt to be FOUND dead or alive- not trying to be difficult here) :-/
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SalNichols
Big Wall climber
Richmond, CA
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Aug 26, 2013 - 10:04pm PT
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Here's a young that teaches math in the 21st century, has an email account, posts on SP periodically and looks for climbing partners through climbing forums and he doesn't own a laptop of any kind? He's taking digital images with that camera of his, What does he do with them?
Regarding the hotmail questions: try answering them incorrectly, but with correct data. E.g., if asked for his fathers middle name, use his first name, or his mothers middle name. If the questions have answers that anyone in his family would know, then he would make sure that he wouldn't forget it. It'll be obvious to you.
Any chance you can get a shot at his school CPU? I'll wager that his hotmail pw is stuffed under user accounts/manage stored passwords.
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SalNichols
Big Wall climber
Richmond, CA
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Aug 26, 2013 - 10:10pm PT
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Jilli, from what I gather, he didn't need glasses to read, and the found glasses were readers. Someone pls correct me if I'm wrong.
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RM217
climber
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Aug 26, 2013 - 10:13pm PT
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@LAhiker...
This is a screenshot from summitpost.org that shows 85 Posts by Matt.
Can't be 100% sure that this is just forum posts, but it appears that way because all posts seem to be individually categorized, such as Climbing Logs, Messages, Reviews, TR's, etc.
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mattyj
Mountain climber
Truckee
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Aug 26, 2013 - 10:13pm PT
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I don't want to drag the SummitPost issue out, but since there have been multiple posts asking the same question:
* Find any SummitPost post by MattGreene (edit: as shown above). It will list his post count as 85; this is a standard PHPBB3 feature that many forums have.
* The link I supplied earlier is PHPBB3 running a DB query and listing every thread that MattGreene posted to. It will be more reliable / comprehensive than a Google search.
* On SP, the forum is a distinct entity from the rest of the site - in fact, the internal user ID numbers don't even match. So the forum software knows nothing about other SP objects like route pages, trip reports and plans & partners. All of that (except PMs) should show up on MattGreene's user profile page.
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LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
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Aug 26, 2013 - 10:15pm PT
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Jilli, I also want Matt to be found, so I think I understand your frustration! While I don't think this should completely close the books on the glasses, I'm coming to think that they are a red herring because:
1. The police department went to the trouble of having the glasses tested by an optician in Bishop, so I trust the verdict on what they are.
2. The verdict is that they're store-bought reading glasses. Matt's friends and close friends say he didn't need or use reading glasses. The person who posted here saying they'd bought "cheaters" was someone who used reading glasses. If someone were to bring forth evidence that Matt did actually use reading glasses, I'd change my mind because of the similar style..
3. Based on their online site, Rite Aid doesn't appear to carry that brand of reading glasses.
4. While it's certainly possible that Matt was at the Inyo Craters for some reason, a variety of people have suggested that based on his personality and patterns when his car was getting fixed in the past, it's likely that he did a big climb.
I also hope the Rite Aid purchases become known soon. Nor am I inclined to dismiss out of hand the intuitions from dreams and psychics. But there are many places near town, for instance, that are near "blue diamond" trails; there are many guardrails, steep slopes, and ravines with water nearby. Maybe a bunch of them could be searched, especially if they fit into larger narratives such as a route Matt might have taken on the way to a big climb.
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Jilli
Trad climber
Livermore, California/ Dunedin NZ
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Aug 26, 2013 - 10:15pm PT
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Sal, thanks i'll look back a few pages to check it out again (the glasses).
Yep, no computer, that has been confirmed. I'm not surprised- i have a best friend with no computer yet takes a lot of photos- you just take em in an print them. :) Sounds old fashioned but I gather that's how Matt lives his life...
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Jilli
Trad climber
Livermore, California/ Dunedin NZ
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Aug 26, 2013 - 10:31pm PT
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Matty, good points. You should PM the family with that so it doesn't get lost in here. :)
LAhiker, Thanks for confirming- I was unaware the verdict was that they were reading glasses, so i guess that's that. :-/
"3. Based on their online site, Rite Aid doesn't appear to carry that brand of reading glasses."
I'm going to call the shop and find out. Online site will be nothing like what each branch sells.
"...the intuitions from dreams and psychics. But there are many places near town, for instance, that are near "blue diamond" trails; there are many guardrails, steep slopes, and ravines with water nearby. Maybe a bunch of them could be searched, especially if they fit into larger narratives such as a route Matt might have taken on the way to a big climb."
Very good idea. I hope the family can get back out to ML and search for these places since the info from psychics/family & friends dreams/ intuitions has now been pointing to that theory, which I just can't shake. I am a believer in that stuff to a certain degree. It's pretty insane that they all had similarities in their dreams... including the one who found the glasses (Alex) who is not associated with the family.
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Supermama
Social climber
pa
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Aug 26, 2013 - 10:33pm PT
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Our town has been following all that you have been doing to help find Matt. Your selflessness, bravery and persistence are remarkable. Thank you for your time and efforts!
The teachers had to report to work by August 22nd at the latest. Staff development began on the 19th. The school year began today, without Matt. The staff wore green to send a message of hope and the town's people have lit a candle in their west windows to guide him home.
As for the computer, the teachers have a desk or lap top computer and have their own account through the district. I would think if you went to the authorities they could get a subpoena to release the emails as part of the investigation. I had to do this once with cell phone calls when someone was stalking me. The police get the report, but the victim/family will never see it. Confidentiality...the criminal has more rights than the victim. Fortunately, in my case, they did find and convict the stalker with the records!
For Matt, the police could put the pieces of the puzzle together leading up to his trip. You should be able to do the same with his Hotmail account. The subpoena doesn't take long to process.
I hope this helps. Be safe!
Supermama
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
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Aug 26, 2013 - 10:35pm PT
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I keep going back to the found reading glasses. Too many coincidences to ignore. RiteAid here in San Diego only sells Foster Grants and I couldn't find any that looked exactly like the ones found.
He liked that style of prescription glasses and that look, we know that.
They are kinda unique.
Is it possible that he also had reading glasses the same style or similar to wear over his contacts for his astigmatism so he could see close-up so he wouldn't have to take out his contacts? Is this possible? As was mentioned before? Seems it would be a hassle to have to go back and forth, why not slip on a pair of glasses when needed to solve this?
The found reading glasses are an older style. I can't find them on-line at this time. I'm not sure how old the style is. Maybe someone else can find them, I couldn't.
Make: Personal Optics (Reading Glasses)
Model: 000912 Ferrix Black
Company: Personal Optics
http://higcapital.com/portfolio/company/71
Too many coincidences:
*The fact that they look so similar to his prescription glasses. He likes this look.
*This make and the model is now not easily found.
*The reading glasses are found near where we know he was within a few miles of being, for the purposes of camping, hanging out, climbing, waiting for his car.
*The visions in dreams being the same/similar from different people that he is close to. You can't deny this.
*The reaction that the found eye-glass images first received. People said that's what they saw in their dreams. We all experienced this together on ST.
*Ok, and a psychic whatever.
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SplitPants
Social climber
LA
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Aug 26, 2013 - 10:41pm PT
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UPDATE FROM CRAGMAN/DEAN
"Safely at the car. Will post up before bed. Sore but content"
And that my friends ends my live cragman updates:)
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SalNichols
Big Wall climber
Richmond, CA
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Aug 26, 2013 - 10:46pm PT
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He doesn't need reading glasses, ok?
There were 30 pages missing from his guidebook. Specifically which pages, comprising which routes on which peaks? If we can put this down on a spreadsheet, we can block out the routes that he had done, and yellow out those routes that were either way above his technical ability, and those routes he would be unlikely to attempt solo and unroped. This should leave us with a set of candidates that we can further eliminate due to distance from the trailhead. Basically, the rest are what we can guess are his bucket list. If the guys ave searched some of them, we can discount them too.
Other than looking everywhere, this is the best I can figure for trying to outguess Matt.
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Jilli
Trad climber
Livermore, California/ Dunedin NZ
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Aug 26, 2013 - 11:02pm PT
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The school year began today, without Matt.
:-(
Supermama, Thanks for your updates from back east, and tips about the email. I too feel the subpoena should not be drastically hard to get considering the dire circumstances, perhaps you can share w/the family your experience personally so it helps the process to kick forward? There could be drastically important clues in his email account(s).
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
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Aug 26, 2013 - 11:06pm PT
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Sal said ...
Aug 26, 2013 - 07:46pm PT
He doesn't need reading glasses, ok?
Aug 26, 2013 - 11:31am PT
Thanks for the update Chief!
Klimmer-I don't know. Gut feeling. I would still search the area. Too many strange coincidences from multiple people. How common are those store bought glasses that look nearly exactly like Matt's even if they aren't prescription but only cheap reading glasses or "cheaters"? Really weird.
MG said ...
All the more reason to find out what that purchase at was RiteAid! My wife wears contacts.. and has a bad astigmatism, then uses cheaters with them when she is reading up close.
I think I undertand that problem:
*He has nearsighted vision and astigmatism which means unaided he could see well up to am arms length away.
*So he wears contacts that correct his vision so he can see further away. Contacts are a hassle to take in and out. Big hassle.
*So he has a cheap pair of reading glasses that he can quickly put on over his contacts or while wearing his contacts that look very similar to his prescription glasses, to see up close. Quick and easy. Problem solved. He can leave his contacts in no hassle. Take off the reading glasses and he's ready to go for distance viewing.
Is it possible he did this? Upstream someone said, someone who was directly with him that he had several glasses he would bring and wear. He needed all of them. Is it possible that one of them were cheap reading glasses for the above said scenario?
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RM217
climber
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Aug 26, 2013 - 11:09pm PT
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@Klimmer...
First...I want to say thanks for that link you posted (about dreams) a few pages ago. Haven't been able to get back on here till today. I appreciated the link. And I want to clarify something. I will restate I am not a psychic, have never wished to be one, etc. I have, in my life, had some weird dreams that have come to pass. Also want to say...I have never met Matt Greene in my whole life. I don't know Matt's sister, brother-in-law or any of his family or friends. My children attended the school Matt teaches at. And that is the extent of the knowledge I have of Matt and his family. I have a busy, very busy life and while I prayed for Matt and his family each night, I never dreamed that I would have a strange dream...about him. My head usually spins right before bed about all the things I will have to do tomorrow...but, my prayers were heartfelt and maybe that is why I dreamed it. I felt overwhelmed with that dream and it weighed heavy on my shoulders for a couple of weeks. When Matt's sister Tiffany went to a psychic, this is why I felt compelled to PM her and tell her of my dream. That is when I learned her husband also had a similar dream, probably earlier than I had mine. And later that evening, I learned of a former student of Matt's also having a very similar dream, after I had mine. I learned this through my son, who was told about the dream. So, this dream of the blue diamond/crystal (which is what was the common denominator) came from three different people who do not know each other, yet we all learned of the other's dreams. That is strange, and I still don't know what to make of it. All I know is that I held it inside for a while and feared that if it ever came out that he was near something I may have seen in my dream, well, I couldn't live with myself if I never divuldged that information. I don't want to cause a change in search plans. Whatever the blue diamond/crystal is... could be anything. Sometimes snow looks blue, could be a rock, water, something he was wearing, or something as simple as a blue diamond. Or perhaps, just a small clue that will lead to the next clue... I just don't know. But, where it seems to have led is to a pair of glasses that we can pretty much rule out as being Matt's. But the glasses have seem to have led to some National coverage, also. And they may not be his, but, maybe it's just the next clue... a silent voice, a picture of a pair of glasses hanging on a "hiking" sign... Maybe the glasses are just to tell us to "keep looking" and we will "see."
I tried to PM this to you Klimmer...but your PM is disabled. You are very passionate...and supportive and I felt like I needed to tell you these things.
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SplitPants
Social climber
LA
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Aug 26, 2013 - 11:09pm PT
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SalNichols
Matt took out of secor 3rd edition all of chapter 12. I have an action item on our list to go through chapter 11 & 12 to eliminate areas based on:
1. Matts previous climbs in the area (which we have a list of)
2. Ones that are too far
3. Not interesting/ not his style
4. Ones that are too difficult
Based on comments from Matts climbing friends and other information the Ritter/Banner area was targeted hence the current search that just concluded about an hour ago.
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SplitPants
Social climber
LA
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Aug 26, 2013 - 11:20pm PT
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Cragman/Dean & Friend
A note of thanks!!!! Came across this right after last post..........how appropriate!
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
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Aug 26, 2013 - 11:20pm PT
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RM217,
Thanks for sharing all of that. It's important. Too many coincidences as you have experienced to ignore.
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RM217
climber
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Aug 26, 2013 - 11:23pm PT
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@mattj - thanks. Just saw your post with link. Your way of searching SP was so much better...! Guess those last two I found were the most recent after all. (Was hoping...)
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ß Î Ø T Ç H
Boulder climber
extraordinaire
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Aug 26, 2013 - 11:45pm PT
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Not to alarm the family members etc, but in years past, the body of a murder victim was dug up right across the street from Shady Rest, and going back a little further - another body was found near the present-day library. Personally, I don't buy the foul-play angle in this case, but I was reminded of those (news) stories when I went bouldering on the hill near the library today.
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Jilli
Trad climber
Livermore, California/ Dunedin NZ
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Aug 26, 2013 - 11:46pm PT
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Klimmer, I'm with you... very intriguing points. Same with others.
QUESTION:
Where is this info sourced? :
Make: Personal Optics (Reading Glasses)
Model: 000912 Ferrix Black
I cannot find it in the million pages above.... need to know for sure- been talking with an employee at Rite Aid.
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LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
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Aug 26, 2013 - 11:53pm PT
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Jilli,
The words "Personal Optics"and "Ferrix" (and I think the number) were on the temples of the glasses themselves. The police chief called the glasses "cheaters," which is a slang term for store-bought reading glasses.
I think Klimmer said that Personal Optics model wasn't currently available. Unfortunately, that might imply that what was found was someone's old reading glasses...
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LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
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Aug 27, 2013 - 12:15am PT
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A heartfelt thanks to Cragman and Cupcake for your courageous search! I'm very glad you're both back safe.
Cragman, I hope you get a good night's sleep and that your neck and shoulder feel better soon.
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crankster
Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
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Aug 27, 2013 - 12:16am PT
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Good job, crag, can't do much more than you've done.
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SplitPants
Social climber
LA
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Aug 27, 2013 - 12:31am PT
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Thanks cragman and cup!
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crusher
climber
Santa Monica, CA
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Aug 27, 2013 - 12:34am PT
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Welcome back C & C...glad you're both safe and sound.
Klimmer, et al, I wear contacts for extreme nearsightedness. I am now in my, ahem, 40s and need to wear "cheater" reading glasses over my contacts in certain light and if print is really small.
I've learned a lot about eyesight being so nearsighted myself and having explored Lasik (not done yet but that's another thread). Matt's family already said he didn't wear readers and I'm really inclined to think he's still too young to need them.
I also don't think that style found at the Craters is uncommon - it's just a modern, popular style that you see from every eyeglass manufacturer, expensive or inexpensive. While I wish it were a concrete clue I just don't think they're Matt's.
Any news out of Rite Aid re. receipt and video? If Mammoth PD is still monitoring this site maybe they can fill us in.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
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Aug 27, 2013 - 01:32am PT
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Finn said ...
Aug 25, 2013 - 07:17pm PT
Again, I can't say enough about the amazing folks helping out here!!!
Here is a bit more information and my observations on Matt regarding his glasses, climbing experience and climbing partners.
On our last trip to the Gunks, Matt wore his glasses up in the car, then changed into his contacts just before we got there for climbing. He then switched back to glasses on the way home. I believe he had done this before as well on other trips. On this last trip, he and I spoke about contacts a little - I asked why he changed his, as I just leave mine in for a few weeks then change them out. I can't remember the why, but he was telling me that it didn't or wouldn't work for him - maybe the type he had?
Regarding Matt's experience on Hard Ice, his friend John can certainly give better information than me, but I do know that he has had a reasonable amount of experience on moderately difficult north east ice climbs (multi-pitch at Poke O..) I don't believe Matt led hard ice, but has followed many routes. Taking one axe it seems he planned on an alpine day.
Matt has significant trad climbing experience. He lead trad up to gunks 5.9 and sport to 5.11. I was recently using his guide book from the City of Rocks where he noted many sends in the 5.10 and 5.11 range.
I also believe that Matt has done several of the 50 classic climbs of North America - some of his other climbing pals might be able to give better details / specifics than me.
Matt is a strong energetic climber - always ready to go, but never reckless or even remotely reckless on the rope. He is always careful and calculated - high level focus.
Here is some other information that I haven't read much about - so I'll offer it up to the group think/effort in the hope that it helps find answers. Matt has from time to time picked up climbing partners on-line from places like Mountain Project. If he was in an area and wanted to do a bigger / more technical route - he would find a partner on-line and climb for the day with that person. He told me about a few epics / minor epics he'd had because of the lack of skill of some of these partners - despite what they claimed. It would not have suprised me at all if he had met someone on or off line to climb with during that period of time - particularly since he had no wheels. So it would have been a good deal for him to find someone on-line and maybe they picked him up on the 17th for an early alpine start.
I also believe that Matt certainly would have hitchhiked to get to a trail head if needed (in this lack of car situation he was in) or just asked someone in town he had been talking with for a ride - or another person at his camp site area.
As you can see by Matt's blog that was posted - he was always going. He was the kind of guy that would get up and do a 6 mile cross-country ski (solo) before everyone else had finished their morning coffee. He'd then go off and do something for the day with the group.. More skiing or climbing.
I would just like to say thanks again for everyone's help - the caring and energy is amazing!!
Greg
----------------------------------
Note he says that Matt was in the habit of going from glasses to contacts and back to glasses again.
What did he do to read up close when he had his contacts in?
Is it possible he had a pair of reading glasses to wear over his contacts for a moment while he was trying to read up-close like others have admitted they have had to do?
If all his glasses looked similar, then who would know if he ever did this, unless he told them? You wouldn't really know through casual observance.
On our last trip to the Gunks, Matt wore his glasses up in the car, then changed into his contacts just before we got there for climbing. He then switched back to glasses on the way home. I believe he had done this before as well on other trips. On this last trip, he and I spoke about contacts a little - I asked why he changed his, as I just leave mine in for a few weeks then change them out. I can't remember the why, but he was telling me that it didn't or wouldn't work for him - maybe the type he had?
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LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
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Aug 27, 2013 - 03:14am PT
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Klimmer, while this is certainly possible, Matt was 39. Most nearsighted 39-year-olds can see perfectly well close up with their glasses or contacts. (I know I could. Not any more…)
And even if Matt was one of those rare 39-year-olds with presbyopia (in which the eyes lose their ability to adjust to close-up vision), I don’t think that would have been nearly as seamless or invisible as you think. People who need reading glasses spend time hunting for them, walk around with them dangling around their neck, and squint at things and hold them at arm’s length when they can’t find the reading glasses. We know he had regular glasses and used them as alternatives to his contacts, but we have no reports of him juggling two pairs of glasses along with the contacts.
Also, if he had very recently realized, oh crap, I can’t see things close up any more, then I think he would have had a pair of new reading glasses, not a pair that’s apparently no longer available. Just my opinion.
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KellyDoesntClimb
Social climber
Dunwoody, GA
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Aug 27, 2013 - 03:14am PT
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So the post on SP on 7/16, was it truly at 246PM PDT?
I'd love to see the document. I am still updating the map on google for anyone and everyone to see.
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mattyj
Mountain climber
Truckee
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Aug 27, 2013 - 05:17am PT
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QITNL, I largely agree with you. I've tried to limit my posting as I feel like this thread is starting to run a little out of control, it's getting harder to keep up with the facts, and I don't want to aggravate that. Even simple information like whether he only brought one pair of crampons out to CA or intentionally chose step-ins over strap-ons that day - it's impossible to keep track with all the chatter.
That said, at this point we're all just dopes on the internet. As much as I might disagree with some of the things being discussed here, I certainly can't crown myself king of the forum and start demanding that those conversations be dispatched to PM land.
Why isn't foul play near the top of the list? I think that's more plausible than him falling into some stupid little crater lake. There is no snow here this summer. You couldn't fall into a cravasse if you jumped into it.
I wouldn't have responded except for this. Over the last two weeks (edit: 1 week), two people have died on the east side in terrain that Matt probably wouldn't have though twice about doing solo. I don't see how you can so cavalierly dismiss the chance of him encountering a backcountry accident.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Aug 27, 2013 - 08:15am PT
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Compton...Interesting about the blue diamonds..? The blue diamond trails are mostly 2-wheel drive logging roads that see lots of multi-use traffic....They are not something that a hiker would choose to hike on due to lack of asthetics..I could see Matt going for a run on one of these trails but they aren't single track or something that is marketed as a hiking trail...
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
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Aug 27, 2013 - 08:23am PT
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Aug 27, 2013 - 05:01am PT
RM217's post about blue diamonds/crystals in dreams from 3 seperate people that knew Matt in PA is intriguing. Perhaps I missed it, but has the Blue Diamond xcountry ski trail that begins in Shady Rest been walked?
http://www.cityconcierge.com/mammoth-lakes/community/blue-diamond-trail-map
Compton,
Yes I agree thanks for that. Helpful and thinking outside of the box but considering what people have been experiencing.
Cragman,
Way to show your horns my Christian brother and so publicly. Nice.
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tdg119
Social climber
Northampton, PA
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Aug 27, 2013 - 08:33am PT
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Cragman has the full support of the family. He has traveled to the edge of the world for us, put himself in danger, if anyone is our 'leader' he is!
If anyone is the most knowledgeable he is. He has been on over 700 SAR’s. He knows the land, he knows what he is doing. I can go on and on but I all I can say is THANK YOU DEAN!
Ron
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michelle0607
climber
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Aug 27, 2013 - 09:11am PT
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And back to some facts.........
Did anyone mention a list of items that were left in the tent/car? I know the group has asked about specific items, but I was wondering if there was a full list.
1) Matt appears to be a runner. Were his running shoes in the items he left behind?
2) Would he have worn the yellow boots from the campground to the trailhead (however he might have traveled to get there)? If not, what should did he wear (if known)? Note: I am obviously showing my ignorance here. I frequent 3 trailheads, but it's flat, hot, and marshy where I live. Completely different equipment.
3) It was mentioned that he switches from glasses to contacts to glasses on hikes. Was there a contact case is his belongings? I know I used to travel with 1 and sometimes two cases when I used contacts. If there isn't a contact case in his belongings, it indicates that he meant to hike or leave for a long day.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
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Aug 27, 2013 - 09:12am PT
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It is though Matt went missing from the evening of July 16 to early morning July 17th, 2013. Vanished. No trace.
No one has come forward that has seen him that last period of time. No one has come forward that gave him a ride to the trail-head or that saw him in the back-country. People hike, climb, and get around, even when you're out there, there are chance meetings before you get out into the thick of things at trail-heads, parking lots, etc. People would know that they've seen him or bumped into him. They would remember.
Seems to me foul play. He probably got a ride or hitched or maybe even met someone in camp to help do so, and that person knows what happened.
Someone said upstream gather the usual suspects? Who? Premonitions. Look close-by.
I keep saying pay attention to the dreams, premonitions, glasses etc. Maybe the glasses are a red-herring, but I still say pay attention. Too many very interesting coincidences and premonitions from unrelated people who knew Matt. Things are being said but not in a direct way.
PAY ATTENTION.
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Delhi Dog
climber
Good Question...
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Aug 27, 2013 - 09:32am PT
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"It is though Matt went missing from the evening of July 16 to early morning July 17th, 2013. Vanished. No trace."
Congratulation dude. What took you so long?
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Aug 27, 2013 - 09:33am PT
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does it seem odd to anyone else that his stuff was thrown in storage and the cops were never called? do people routinely abandon their fully set up camps? Campground staff long term locals with clean backgrounds? Who made the decision to break down his camp.rifle through his stuff and throw it in storage without a word to anyone else? SOP?
Edit:..wow. pretty ugly...
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SplitPants
Social climber
LA
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Aug 27, 2013 - 09:49am PT
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Wow quite some reading this morning with my coffee.
Ron +100 for cragman comments
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PAUL SOUZA
Trad climber
Central Valley, CA
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Aug 27, 2013 - 10:19am PT
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What about rock shoes or approach shoes?
Could indicate if he was planning to do some scrambling or soloing.
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OutdoorGal
Social climber
Lehigh Valley, PA
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Aug 27, 2013 - 10:22am PT
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Is anyone following up on interviewing these folks, who posted on one of the threads on the Facebook page (the thread with Matt's photos in the dress shirt and diamond-pattern tie) that they had stayed at the campground with Matt in the days leading up to the disappearance and actually interacted with him? There is even indication that he might have shown them his hiking guide and where he was planning to go. What this case needs is a more concrete lead on where to search. Could this be it?
Connie Silva: We saw him on Saturday my other son said he saw him Sunday night [They are talking about the weekend before Matt disappeared]
Connie Silva: Yes Sunday before he disappeared he talked to my son Arnold and showed him in the book where he planned on going . He was waiting for his car to b fixed he said they were giving him the run around
Arnold Morales: I saw him on friday night 13th. My brother stayed until Monday and is trying to remember.
Arnold Morales: Me and my family spent the last days before he went missing. We might be able to help. Contact me.
Arnold Morales posted this on his own FB page: I met him during my camping trip to mammoth. He loved to climb he loved to teach he loved his life. I can't believe how life is I am truly sad tonight. [Posted with a link to an article about Matt on gma.yahoo.com]
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crankster
Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
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Aug 27, 2013 - 10:29am PT
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It's a frustrating case, so not surprised we'd be getting frustrating posts.
What I know:
Matt went missing late July 16. Had been waiting around Mammoth 10 days or so for car repair. Had been climbing classic routes from Secor, most with snow/ice. Did some with friends, most solo since friends left. Must have used public transportation or hitched to travel to Tuolumne in YNP. No photos seem to exist or they are on Matt's red camera that is with him. Items he is thought to have with him are from friends & family's recollection after going through remaining gear. Obviously, he had light hikers in addition to big, yellow La Sportiva's. It is quite possible he had more personal gear than what is listed, but friends seem to have a good fix on his inventory from camping with him for long periods. + he is a simple guy. No indication he was planning an overnight climb.
He was in his tent at 6pm on July 16, going to sleep at 9pm, according to last text. No further word - no note, no other clue except missing torn pages from Secor Sierra book. Cell phone received text close to 3 am on the 17th. No verified sighting by shuttle driver, YARTS driver, nobody has reported picking him up as a hitchhiker. Camp host, neighboring campers, no help. No sightings on trails. Nothing. Possible sighting in Minden dead end. Found reading glasses at Inyo Craters dead end. Search by SAR with helicopter dead end. Noble searches by Cragman, et al, dead end, no trace.
If we rule out the possibility that he staged his disappearance - and I have - everything I know leads me to believe Matt had a climbing accident in the mountains near Mammoth, likely the Ritter/Banner Minaret's Range. He was outfitted with gear for moderate snow & ice, not steeper terrain that required 2 tools. He wasn't the type to go "mess around" or go glissading, he was a climber that headed for established routes and summits.
I'll monitor the thread in hopes of further clues. Otherwise, a final offer of condolences to family and friends. A school in PA is missing a great person and teacher.
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SplitPants
Social climber
LA
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Aug 27, 2013 - 10:32am PT
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All,
I have read through the posts from last night and this morning. I am currently researching an easier method to compile and organize the most pertinent information that has been shared to this forum thread. The document that I created and have been maintaining has gone out to a few people for review/feedback.
Things get lost when a thread grows to over 1,000k posts and I would like for us to have a dedicated space for organizing and updating facts etc.....
If anyone has ideas let me know. Right now I am looking at creating a free google site. The solution needs to be FREE, userfriendly and we need to control person(s) that have the ability to add/change/delete FACTS.
Tx
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Aug 27, 2013 - 10:48am PT
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Only four quick morning comments.
Regarding eliminating places Matt may have gone:
1. Matts previous climbs in the area (which we have a list of) "climbs" is too broad a category.
We know he climbed the Clyde and Michael Minarets. Which routes? We don't know. There are 4 that Matt could have climbed or attempted solo on Clyde and possibly 2 on Michael. He would not have attempted the SE Face solo, it would have been a tough climb for him with a partner. Most of those peaks have more than one possible route for Matt.
Crevasses and bergschrunds and other places a full grown man can vanish into.
We have photos from Tom Cochrane and Dean that show bergschrunds big enough to capture a man. Without a skilled and equipped team they cannot be explored safely. One could argue they can't be explored safely by any means. Looking into them from the top might be possible.
I was taken by Dean's photo down the deep gully above Iceberg lake (there are at least two gullies)
Until yesterday, I had assumed they were not snow filled. Now we see they are, at least at the top. This is important new information.
If Matt slipped into one of them, he might have gone all the way down to Iceberg Lake.
Based on what we now know, it is extremely unlikely the glasses are Matts.
Dean: well done….again.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
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Aug 27, 2013 - 11:13am PT
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Ignore the psychic if you want fine.
Don't ignore all the dreams from people closely connected to Matt in some way. (And some very strong believers also who care a great deal and have shared their experiences bravely to a hostile ST crowd at times. Pretty brave of all of them to do so.) All overlapping and too coincidental. Too powerful. All experiencing something very similar.
I suspect foul play at this time very strongly. He would have been seen by a driver, at the parking lot for the trail, at the trail-head, on the trail, in the BC climbing. No one has come forward that has seen him. Nobody has seen him. In the night of July 16 or early morning of July 17 near his camp its seems he just vanished. No trace.
There's a lot of strong intuition going on by many. Listen to it. Pay attention. I suspect the one who knows what happened to Matt is close-by.
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
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Aug 27, 2013 - 11:41am PT
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it would well to maintain a more Timid attitude...there are other threads on supertopo that are more appropriate to discuss philosophical levels of awareness
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fluffy
Trad climber
Colorado
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Aug 27, 2013 - 11:48am PT
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I don't think this is helpful.
May be time to give it a rest Klimmer.
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PAUL SOUZA
Trad climber
Central Valley, CA
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Aug 27, 2013 - 11:53am PT
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One of the most important things I have learned in recent years is to trust and stick with my initial instincts.
In the case of Matt, he took off to bag something and had an accident. Just because nothing is turning up, doesn't mean that he was the victim of foul play. Like Werner and Dean have stated as two highly experienced SAR guys, sometimes you won't find a person in the mountains until you step on them.
We should focus on the backcountry to maximize time before the winter storms come in.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Aug 27, 2013 - 11:57am PT
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Isn't it time for a big collective breathe-into-a-paper-bag? To reprise
QITNL's logical and cogent post - ya got nothing so it is just gonna come
down to a lucky break. If it was foul play MLPD is really gonna need a
lucky break; they've all they can handle keeping tabs on Rottingjohnny.
If he fell into a crevasse then he was far from the best climber to do so.
Some of my scariest experiences have been getting from the lip of a
bergschrund onto the rock, with a rope. As Werner noted weeks ago at this
point you could walk within 20' of his remains and never notice them.
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SplitPants
Social climber
LA
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Aug 27, 2013 - 11:58am PT
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Ron/Tiffany/Matt's climbing friends
Can anyone answer the following:
1. What type of trail or hiking shoes Matt was wearing (same as those in the picture with his car?
2. Were his trek poles missing or with the gear picked up from his car or campsite?
I am asking as the more I look at the picture of him with his car it appears we have items unaccounted for.
Any insight would be great.
Thanks.
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tdg119
Social climber
Northampton, PA
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Aug 27, 2013 - 01:09pm PT
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same shoes as in the picture. trek poles are accounted for.
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SplitPants
Social climber
LA
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Aug 27, 2013 - 01:11pm PT
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Tiffany/Ron,
Thanks for the response. Will update accordingly. Thanks
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PAUL SOUZA
Trad climber
Central Valley, CA
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Aug 27, 2013 - 01:25pm PT
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I haven't been keeping up with the details of this thread in depth, but the idea that I have observed is that Matt fell while climbing a route. Well, what about the DESCENT route for various objectives??
Often it is the approach and the descent where most accidents occur because we are complacent since the terrain is usually easier than our anticipated objective. 95% of the time when I have been sketched out the most was on the descent. We are often tired and complacent and are likely to get off route, especially at night.
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Alpineholydog
Trad climber
Spring Tx
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Aug 27, 2013 - 01:52pm PT
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Matt is out there. We will not forget about him. We will find him. Great work and effort Cragman!
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Ihateplastic
Trad climber
It ain't El Cap, Oregon
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Aug 27, 2013 - 02:04pm PT
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While these efforts are indeed noble and deserved I wonder (as a result of this situation and others similar over the years) how long until Forest Service and Park Service departments start dictating that location beacons are mandatory once you leave the parking lot.
A lot of worry, dismay, and effort could have been saved for $299
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fluffy
Trad climber
Colorado
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Aug 27, 2013 - 02:24pm PT
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just more thread drift. do we really need a discussion about mandatory beacons here?
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Ihateplastic
Trad climber
It ain't El Cap, Oregon
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Aug 27, 2013 - 02:26pm PT
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^ ^ ^ YEP ^ ^ ^
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i'm gumby dammit
Sport climber
da ow
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Aug 27, 2013 - 02:31pm PT
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Ya know they're mostly plastic.
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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Aug 27, 2013 - 02:33pm PT
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Nope.
Simon, this is about an incident that has happened. Hindsight regarding PLB's does nothing to help find Matt.
PLB's are a worthy topic, but they don't pertain to this particular conversation.
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SplitPants
Social climber
LA
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Aug 27, 2013 - 03:03pm PT
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Fluffy & Brandon +2
Ihateplastic
While these efforts are indeed noble and deserved I wonder (as a result of this situation and others similar over the years) how long until Forest Service and Park Service departments start dictating that location beacons are mandatory once you leave the parking lot.
A lot of worry, dismay, and effort could have been saved for $299
I am not sure if you are aware (then again you probably are)that Matt's family and friends (those he climbed with) are participating in this thread. This thread is to deal "in the now" not the could have.... should have.... would haves.......
I beg of you to have some decency as a human being. I realize this is a public forum, but this is a thread TO.HELP.FIND.MATTHEW.
Please either contribute in a positive fashion (we welcome assistance) or delete your comment.
Thanks
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nita
Social climber
chica de chico, I don't claim to be a daisy.
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Aug 27, 2013 - 03:30pm PT
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I am not sure if you are aware (then again you probably are)that Matt's family and friends (those he climbed with) are participating in this thread. This thread is to deal "in the now" not the could have.... should have.... would haves.......
I beg of you to have some decency as a human being. I realize this is a public forum, but this is a thread TO.HELP.FIND.MATTHEW.
+1000
Thanks Splitpants...and Cragman, Doug, Cupcake dude, SARS..and ...
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jeg
Social climber
center valley,Pa
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Aug 27, 2013 - 06:09pm PT
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High traverse...
I looked back at my husband's text from Matt and he said he did" a fun and absolutely classic scramble up the 5.5 direct variation of the rock route on the Clyde minaret"
Also said" the reigelhuth minaret took less that 6.5 hrs r/t to hike and climb but was scary and the Dana couloir was easy but fun and had the best ice of the trip."
As far as we know he didn't climb Michael minaret.
Maybe this can help those people who know the area and can get into his head on what else he would have wanted to climb.
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Supermama
Social climber
pa
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Aug 27, 2013 - 07:32pm PT
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I will try to contact the family via Facebook about the subpoena.
Also, after reading all of the posts on here, Facebook, news articles, and other forums one things resonates...maybe Matt is right under our noses. It would be ironic if all of that wilderness was searched and he was found near the campsite. Someone posted earlier that he could have been hit by a car and fell down the steep embankment off of the side of the road. Have the authorities even looked there? It could have even been a hit-and-run.
When does this case become an all out search and rescue? He didn't show up for work, which isn't like him. This doesn't even include many other obvious clues, like leaving everything behind at the camp site and not picking up his car or meeting up with friends. Isn't all of this proof enough that he is missing? We do not want this to become a search-and-recover. At this point, time is the enemy and authorities need to step-up their efforts or call in reinforcements. The climbing community and Matt's friends have been wonderful in helping, but what have the authorities really done? Does anyone have contact with them?
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kenish
Gym climber
Orange County, CA
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Aug 27, 2013 - 08:21pm PT
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@supermama- Understand that the Sierras are one of the most rugged and isolated areas in the Lower 48. The most rugged areas of PA don't come anywhere close to the vastness of the Sierras. Several volunteers on this board are spending a lot of their time and money at significant personal risk to get their boots on the ground. They truly feel a sense of duty to find missing persons. Authorities and SAR feel the same way from what I've experienced (a high school friend was in SAR).
A few people go missing every year in the Sierras and are found months or even decades later. That's the reality that authorities and SAR face, with limited resources to pursue situations where leads and evidence are scarce. Did you know almost all SAR are unpaid volunteers and aren't even reimbursed for their time, meals, or gas?
The Minarets area is where Steve Fossett was found. His fame, deep pockets, and political clout resulted in an intensive, but unsuccessful search. (He was found by random chance 2 years later).
I hesitated to post this...the thread is long already, my comments are pragmatic but not encouraging (we can never lose hope, can we?), and although I hike and mountain bike in the area I'm not a climber or expert. I don't want to come off as "scoldy" but hope this puts your comments and concerns into perspective. The best help we can offer from afar is any specific expertise or experience we have that helps sort though facts as they unfold, or by contributing to the search fund on Facebook.
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Jilli
Trad climber
Livermore, California/ Dunedin NZ
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Aug 27, 2013 - 08:27pm PT
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Supermama,
I will try to contact the family via Facebook about the subpoena. GREAT! That needs to be done IMO because his email account(s) could contain VALUABLE info about his whereabouts/Plans since we know he met people online to climb with. Someone mentioned above about how the email is a waste of time (QITNL), but actually, it is very much not a waste of time because we are not thinking here that Matt would have emailed his fam/friends; it would have been a new person to climb with PERHAPS. Or maybe not. But at least worth to check. I sure as hell would want to if it was my family member- would give piece of mind.
Please post on here when you find out more info.
When does this case become an all out search and rescue?
"At this point, time is the enemy and authorities need to step-up their efforts or call in reinforcements. The climbing community and Matt's friends have been wonderful in helping, but what have the authorities really done? Does anyone have contact with them? "
You are treading on very dangerous waters here... just saying. The police read this thread and SAR reads this thread.... Cragman reads this thread... they have put in SO MUCH effort on the very little facts that are known.
We do not want this to become a search-and-recover.
Not a good topic to bring up on this thread at this time. Just drop it for all our sake..... (meant in a kind way)
[EDIT] : Kenish put it much better..... thankyou.
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Jilli
Trad climber
Livermore, California/ Dunedin NZ
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Aug 27, 2013 - 08:48pm PT
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I think the problem that a few people have been expressing here in the last 24hrs (rightfully so) is that things seem to be going in circles on this thread. Lots of people give (great) ideas and insight, theories of Matt's disappearance, etc.... but the important stuff gets lost amongst the rest of the chatter. And so many ideas are brought up again & again which had already been answered upthread (my own self included in terms of hope for glasses lead). We all just need to do that breath-in-the-bag thing someone mentioned above and
*HOLD TIGHT.... because SplitPants is creating a website (to take place of the amazing Document she created) with all of the facts in one place. This will help for those who are still after a search.
PS: the whole butt imprint seat thing..... haha that's funny :) My chair has gotten far too much use this winter. No skiing, no ice... DOC's orders. At least we have beer.....
So hey everyone? Lighten up ok?
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Aug 27, 2013 - 09:01pm PT
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re-thinking what I infer from reading Matt's 2006 trip report, from what I know of the Minarets first hand, and what facts we have high certainty of:
I think the perimeter of the base of the cliffs (above the talus, below the glacier edges) from Iceberg Lake, going right to left, past Clyde and Ken, through South Notch, around Amphitheater Lake (base of Ken, Clyde, Eichorn, Michael and Adams minarets) and continuing around the west side of Adams and Michael to the west base of Eichhorn should be searched.
This it the region Cragman hasn't been to yet. To my reading of Matt's mind, a likely region for him to explore/climb.
A lot of it, especially the west and north sides of Amphiteater lake, is 3d class and much of it is loose rock.
Counting the return, that would be a full day from Cecile Lake.
I'll see if I can get out there the weekend of Sept 6.
PS: anyone going over South Col should carry an ice axe (and know how to use it) just in case. Yes, I know many people don't need one but that's largely dependent upon weather and time of day. I've been over it and found it in both conditions.
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SplitPants
Social climber
LA
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Aug 27, 2013 - 09:26pm PT
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Jill & All
*HOLD TIGHT.... because SplitPants is creating a website (to take place of the amazing Document she created) with all of the facts in one place. This will help for those who are still after a search.
I have been working on this today. It is going to take me another 1-2 days (hopefully I can finish late tomorrow).
I will be sending to the family first for review/approval and a couple of other people (you know who you are lol) :)
Right now I gotta take a break for a bit.
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Supermama
Social climber
pa
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Aug 27, 2013 - 09:30pm PT
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Jilli and Kenish,
Please do not take my post the wrong way. Everyone is extremely grateful for everything all of the volunteers have done to help find Matt. I have praised many volunteers on many occasions. It is frustrating to be on the other side of the country and unable to help. We know very little about what is going on behind the scenes and are grasping at any clues that turn up. What you here in my voice is frustration, not anger. The community wants to know what we can do to help.
I will bow out and leave you to what you do best. Please know that all of the volunteers are appreciated from the east. We cannot thank you enough! Sorry if anyone took offense. It was not meant to come across that way. You all are an amazing group of people! We light a candle in our west windows every night to help guide Matt home. Be safe out there! God bless.
Supermama
Supermama
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Dan Watson
climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Aug 27, 2013 - 09:32pm PT
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I'd like to respond to the recent comments of Jilli and Supermama. First, Jilli, don't be concerned about treading on dangerous waters. MLPD and SAR members have thick skins and we all understand this is a very difficult and emotional issue for Matt's family and friends. But it is good advice for posters to be reminded that Matt's family also reads these comments.
Matt has been reported as a missing person since late July, Supermama. He remains an open case and will continue to do so until he is found. As reported several times in this thread, Mono County Search and Rescue is very aware of the situation and is following this thread. They have conducted some searches in the most likely areas he'd have gone to. But, as Kenish says, they are an all volunteer unit and without having a departure point of where to start their search, they cannot do more. There are thousands of square miles over several adjacent counties, each with their own SAR. I know that they would jump at the opportunity to initiate a search if they knew where. This is a group that does about 50 missions a year and they are among the best.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Aug 27, 2013 - 09:48pm PT
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has anyone gone out and started from his last known location and attempted any of the suggested itineraries?
it might provide additional insight, and cover ground that he could have covered.
seems the timeline up until the loss of communication is well known. starting out from where he did, "a big day in the mountain" would be very much better defined.
just an idea...
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Jilli
Trad climber
Livermore, California/ Dunedin NZ
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Aug 27, 2013 - 09:51pm PT
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Thanks for the words Supermama/ Chief Watson. Sorry I overstepped my boundaries there. Was just thinking of all the effort put in by SAR over the years on various searches in the backcountry, own friends included... got a bit too defensive. I understand your frustration Supermama... Peace be with you. :-/
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Supermama
Social climber
pa
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Aug 27, 2013 - 09:57pm PT
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Thanks Dan...the whole process is unfamiliar to the general public. This clarifies some of the questions. I am just trying to understand what has been done and what still needs to be done. If there is anything that we can do from a distance, please let me know. I will spread the word.
Thank you for understanding.
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Alpineholydog
Trad climber
Spring Tx
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Aug 27, 2013 - 10:09pm PT
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If someone could do a slow drive down Reds Meadow Road and look carefully to the downhill side it might be a good area to search and just rule out the hit and run aspect of things. particularly to Agnew trailhead as I doubt he would walk the road to Reds or Devils Postpile. As buses are the only way in except early and late in the day this might not have been done effectively. Bus service ends after Labor Day. Access with good light will be easier.
A buddy and I will be all around Garnet and Nydiver next week and bring along binoculars and really look around that area for where a simple accident may have occurred just off beaten paths and up in Ritter Banner Notch.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Aug 27, 2013 - 10:15pm PT
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Matt climbed the Clyde Minaret via …..a fun and absolutely classic scramble up the 5.5 direct variation of the rock route on the Clyde minaret Very interesting
There are four routes rated 4th class on the north side of the Clyde and are approached from the left side of the Clyde or the glacier.
There's a 5.5 "direct" variation to the classic Rock Route. This is likely the climb Matt made. This variation is approached from the Clyde/Eichorn glacier. (The "standard" route is approached via a ledge from the left)
So he either climbed or skirted the left side of the Clyde-Eichorn glacier to make this ascent. He most likely then took the standard descent off the backside to Amphitheater lake and back over South Notch.
To the right of the Rock Route is the famous Norman Clyde "Glacier Route". 4th class, 1928.
Secor specifically mentions crossing the bergschrund to get to the base of the Glacier/Clyde route. Matt would certainly know of this route, it's quite well known.
(see The High Sierra, Peaks - Passes - Trails; Secor; Third Edition, page 380, photo on 381)
Pretty stout to make any of those climbs solo.
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SplitPants
Social climber
LA
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Aug 27, 2013 - 10:25pm PT
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@Dan Watson +10 (hey it's past your work time:)
Thank you very much for monitoring this thread and jumping in to explain things. Out of sheer curiosity has MLPD issued any search warrants for the data from rite-aid and/or matt's e-mail accounts? See also my comment below to supermama as to why I am asking this question.
@supermama
It is all good and we all know you mean well and only want to help find Matt:) Just like 99% of us do:) If you have time and would like........I have a task I was going to try and work on, but am busy collecting/organizing information (and I am exhausted right now).
If you want to help you can review some of the websites I give you below (go to the forum sections) and see if there are any posts from between say 6/15/13 and 7/16/13 by someone looking for a hike/climb/alpine partner for any activity in the mammoth/sierra/yosemite region. Sometimes the user name may be something like MattGreene or it could be generic. You will have to read through all posts between the time period.
On 8/27 a climbing partner/friend of Matt's named greg posted some VERY interesting information. Basically he stated that sometimes Matt seeks climbing partners (which is quite common)via meeting people in town or on forums. The posts might not be so obvious because in general someone will post, then a person responding often times sends what is called a PM (personal message). This PM goes to the users email account they used when they registered on the forum. The problem we are running into is we don't have access to Matt's two email accounts to see if he was corresponding with any potential climbing partners which in turn could potentially provide us with much needed information:( So my intention was to scour posts on the sites at the end of this post AND to do some googling to see if perhaps there are other forums out there we need to check.
The link to Matt's friends comments: http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=2195321&tn=1060); that caught our attention.
Quote: "Here is some other information that I haven't read much about - so I'll offer it up to the group think/effort in the hope that it helps find answers. Matt has from time to time picked up climbing partners on-line from places like Mountain Project. If he was in an area and wanted to do a bigger / more technical route - he would find a partner on-line and climb for the day with that person. He told me about a few epics / minor epics he'd had because of the lack of skill of some of these partners - despite what they claimed. It would not have suprised me at all if he had met someone on or off line to climb with during that period of time - particularly since he had no wheels. So it would have been a good deal for him to find someone on-line and maybe they picked him up on the 17th for an early alpine start."
Some sites (there could be others we dont know about) are:
-Mountainproject.com
-Rockclimbing.com
-Summitpost.com>we already researched this site
And you may want to google for others. If you find anything send me a PM and I will work with you directly:) Also, if you don't have time don't worry:)
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Supermama
Social climber
pa
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Aug 27, 2013 - 10:37pm PT
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Splitpants...thank you for giving me something to do to help. I will go through them and let you know what I come up with. If you need anything else, please let me know.
Supermama
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SplitPants
Social climber
LA
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Aug 27, 2013 - 10:43pm PT
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@supermama
You are most welcome and we thank you for any help you can provide. We all want to find Matt and every contribution counts:)
Nite
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SplitPants
Social climber
LA
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Aug 27, 2013 - 10:44pm PT
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HighTraverse +10
Dang you and cragman............it is almost eerie.........like you are inside Matt's brain (I mean that in a good way).
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Dan Watson
climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Aug 27, 2013 - 10:54pm PT
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We have not sought any search warrants, Splitpants. I asked my only part-time detective (I told you we're small!) to follow up with Rite-Aid. Frankly, I don't expect it would result in anything more than Matt purchasing routine items. But Detective Hornbeck and all of us has been pretty busy. We've had two bank robberies in 3 weeks, after 15 years without one. We captured one yesterday four hours after the robbery. There is a ton of follow-up work to do in addition to it being a very busy summer for us. I'd like someone to contact me off-line and provide a summary of details about the Rite-Aid purchase and e-mail account. I don't have time to go through over 1300 comments here.
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SplitPants
Social climber
LA
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Aug 27, 2013 - 10:58pm PT
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@ Dan Watson
10-4 will do. Sending you a PM
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Aug 27, 2013 - 11:06pm PT
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Dan
Thanks for all your assistance!
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kenish
Gym climber
Orange County, CA
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Aug 28, 2013 - 01:36am PT
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@supermama- No worries and no offense taken. It's great you're able to use your savvy and time to help. I read your post as frustration, and it sounded like you've never visited the slice of paradise that attracted Matt. So it's understandable to not realize the enormity of the search task...the volunteers, residents, SAR, and authorities sound just as frustrated they can't do more.
Cragman's report (link is in the post directly above) is a fascinating and poignant "must read".
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ß Î Ø T Ç H
Boulder climber
extraordinaire
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Aug 28, 2013 - 02:20am PT
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With all the searches that's been done so far, I'm leaning more toward a head injury scenario like the recent Round Valley peak death (only fell 30 feet) - I'm assuming it's cuz he hit his head(?) Guessing that our "missing friend" fell on the approach to whatever he was going after(?). His long range abilities, and technical skills makes for a virtual crapshoot of posibilities - the perfect storm, if you will.
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SalNichols
Big Wall climber
Richmond, CA
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Aug 28, 2013 - 02:44am PT
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Just out of curiousity, what would the round trip from Mammoth or the Postpile to Iron Mtn entail?
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tdg119
Social climber
Northampton, PA
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Aug 28, 2013 - 10:34am PT
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In my case? 3 people - 2 to carry me and 1 to carry my drink...- Ron :)
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kenish
Gym climber
Orange County, CA
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Aug 28, 2013 - 12:12pm PT
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Do I recall correctly that Matt knew his car would be ready soon, just beofre he went missing? If so, he would know he was doing his last Sierra climb for the year before catching up with friends. It also sounds like he was a bit stir crazy and frustrated at being stuck in the area.
In the text that Jeg reported, a challenging/scary climb and several fun ones were mentioned. In Matt's situation and frame of mind would he be most likely to try something new? Or would he be likely to repeat the challenging climb to improve skills/technique, or redo a fun one as a celebratory sort of thing? I'm the last person who should try to get into Matt's head, but know his family and climbing friends are trying to do that. If a repeat climb is likely, maybe the text contains areas of interest. Apologies if I'm rehashing a closed issue, but I haven't seen the possibility of a repeat climb...maybe not in his nature or thought process.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Aug 28, 2013 - 12:17pm PT
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thought it was already established he had partners then, for that one. I think we don't know.
Although a good question, I'm not sure it's of significance at this time.
SplitPants has become keeper of the non-official record.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Aug 28, 2013 - 12:27pm PT
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kenish
all good questions. My guess (hunch) is that on his Clyde Minaret climb a week earlier he saw a lot of other routes to climb and he went back to climb one.
The possible routes go from The Watchtower all the way north to Banner. See Tom Cochrane's aerial survey.
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/2205815/Ritter-Range-Aerial-Search-Imagery
Surprising to me is there was still a LOT of snow on the West faces of Ritter and Banner the first week in August.
See Just In Time's excellent TR and photos
http://www.supertopo.com/tr/Mt-Ritter/t12084n.html
I don't believe there's been a search of the "backsides" of the Minarets-Ritter-Banner but that would have been a real stretch for a day trip from the east side of the range.
Of course Matt could have fallen west from one of the saddles after coming from the east.
The west sides should not be ignored.
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schilds
Trad climber
eastside
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Aug 28, 2013 - 12:41pm PT
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Is it possible he would have found a partner from the bulletin board outside Mammoth Mountaineering? There are often notes there looking for partners, and just maybe there would be one still up from July. Might be worth looking and calling whoever has a note up to make sure they never hooked up with Matt. Even if it wasn't to climb on the 17th, possibly they could shed some light on his plans if he ever contacted them? Just a thought:)
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jeg
Social climber
center valley,Pa
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Aug 28, 2013 - 12:43pm PT
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After we left Matt on The 7th, all his climbs listed were solo. He climbed Clyde on July 11th. I was just stating the route for High Traverse who had questioned which Clyde route he did ALONE on the 11th. We new he climbed Clyde as posted 100's of threads ago.
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jeg
Social climber
center valley,Pa
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Aug 28, 2013 - 12:47pm PT
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We know he climbed alone from 7/8-7/13 and 7/15. I would be surprised if he sought out a partner for his last day. Plus he thought his last day in Mammoth were many days. The car place kept promising different days the car would be done. Matt was not known to do the same climb twice!!!
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jeg
Social climber
center valley,Pa
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Aug 28, 2013 - 12:50pm PT
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High Fructose...
Wow what?? There what is??? We posted threads ago what he climbed after we left him on July 7!!!
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jeg
Social climber
center valley,Pa
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Aug 28, 2013 - 01:01pm PT
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High Traverse... Posted may threads ago, not sure if you sw it..
Here is what my husband and friends search when they went to Mammoth...
North notch from Cecile lake
North east snow field up to notch
West side of notch and surrounding gullies
Climbed to south notch from Cecile lake
Traversed to amphitheater lake over Michael Adams saddle
Climbed amphitheater gully
Checked upper reaches of the 3 west shoots of micheal
Checked register at Star plaque
Cecile lake west shore and slopes
Slopes to the nw of iceberg lake
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LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
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Aug 28, 2013 - 01:17pm PT
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Jill, is that the search that was done on August 11th through 15th by Shawn, Adam, Chris, and Frank?
If so, do you know whether SplitPants has the trip report from that search, so she can incorporate it into her document and the website she's working on?
Thanks!
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Aug 28, 2013 - 01:18pm PT
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Likely Scenario Hypothesis
Matt left early in the AM for a long day climbing trip to the Minarets/Ritter/Banner.
The objective was on the East side of the range, or possibly over South Notch to Adams/Michael/Eichorn. (equal likelihoods)
Matt planned to return July 17th night. Possibly late that night.
Matt was solo
He anticipated snow/ice travel (South Notch) or climbing.
He had a pre-arranged ride or hitchhiked to Minarets Summit (just west of ski area parking lot) or all the way to TH at Agnews Meadow/Devils Postpile. (all equal likelihoods)
He made it to one of the trailheads and set out.
He made it to the base of his climbing objective.
Matt fell sometime during his climb.
=
There are other possible scenarios which I consider less likely.
in order of my estimated decreasing likelihood
1 - Fell on descent from the climb (tired)
2 - Fell on approach to the climb
3 - Fell down west side from one of the saddles/passes/notches/peaks (tired, careless)
4 - Fell into either Minarets or Shadow creek.
5 - Was struck walking along Minarets road between ski area and TH
6 - Intended climb was on the west side
7 - Was abducted by his ride
8 - Never connected with a ride- but then what?
For clarity, I've left out the supporting facts.
We can make guesses of his intended climb but that doesn't narrow the search area much as there are big east facing snowfields/glaciers from The Watchtower at the south, all the way to Banner at the north end of the range, and on the west side of at least Banner/Ritter
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Alpineholydog
Trad climber
Spring Tx
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Aug 28, 2013 - 01:43pm PT
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+10 high Traverse
My thoughts exactly.
Bothers me he did not take his helmet. Just seems weird given the fickle rock on climbs.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Aug 28, 2013 - 01:44pm PT
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jeg
thanks for repeating that information.
It was originally posted so far upthread it was fuzzy in my mind.
North notch from Cecile lake
North east snow field up to notch
West side of notch and surrounding gullies The east snow field up to notch - Cragman has been over the lower right hand end of that area as well.
Climbed to south notch from Cecile lake We can assume that area has been well traveled since Matt's disappearance.
Traversed to amphitheater lake over Michael Adams saddle
Climbed amphitheater gully There is a lot of steep ground on the Adams side (climbers left from Amphitheater Lake) of the Michael Adams saddle from Cecile Lake, including chimneys and ledges (I've climbed that left side, the route is not in any guidebooks)
He almost certainly couldn't have been missed in Amphitheater gully.
Checked upper reaches of the 3 west shoots of micheal
Checked register at Star plaque Walter A Starr Jr fell from near the top of Michael and landed on a ledge well above and right of the plaque. Clyde found his resting place high on the NW Face below the summit. Jules Eichorn and Norman Clyde climbed from the Eichorn/Michael notch up and right to reach his body. Eichorn had previously passed within about 100 feet of Starr without seeing him. That NW face remains a possible area.
Cecile lake west shore and slopes Very unlikely Matt is under the krumholz that's around Cecile Lake.
Slopes to the nw of iceberg lake The exit region of the big gullies/chasms coming down from Clyde Glacier.
This helps focus future search areas.
historical note: the Eichorn and Clyde minarets were named before they found Starr. The Starr minaret afterwards. These three young men knew the Minarets intimately and achieved some of the first major climbs in the region.
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phylp
Trad climber
Millbrae, CA
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Aug 28, 2013 - 01:48pm PT
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5 - Was struck walking along Minarets road between ski area and TH
@Supermama - I was the person who suggested this as place to look (as did one other person beside High Traverse), but not because I think it is likely. Like High Traverse and Rotting Johnny, I think it is an extremely low % scenario. Like less than 0.5% IMO.
But it is about the only thing non-climbers or non-professional personnel could do that hasn't been done. If done, it should be done in cooperation with the forest service personnel, to avoid putting oneself in danger as a pedestrian on a non-pedestrian road or creating a hazard on the road for others. Currently that road is closed to private vehicles, except for workers and campers from 7AM - 7PM daily.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Aug 28, 2013 - 02:02pm PT
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One new thought.
The back (SW) side of Adams is class 2 - 3 and easily reachable from South Notch. Has magnificent views. For Matt, a moderate day from the TH. He would want crampons and axe for South Notch if he was early in the morning.
A fall from Adams' south summit or the ridge to the Adams/Michael saddle would be down the precipitous, rugged (and unclimbed) east or NE face, far above Amphitheater Lake and very remote. That face could be scanned with binoculars from the summits of Clyde or Ken minarets. South Notch might be to low (12,000ft vs 11280 ft)
Secor 3d edition page 385 has aerial picture with NE face of Adams at upper left with big snowfield above Amphitheater Lake (not visible).
Tom Cochrane has a photo of the lower Adams E face, directly above (left of) Amph lake. Photo 23-00-26
Base of Amphitheater chute is the big talus slope falling to snowfield above Amph. lake in 23-00-15
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crusher
climber
Santa Monica, CA
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Aug 28, 2013 - 02:13pm PT
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Phylp and High Traverse, +++++ Ref. the side of the road down to THs, there is also a trail down the slope from the entrance booth that connects to the road below. It looks to be about 1.5 miles of trail and ends down below at Starkweather Lake. I've hiked out on this trail and it runs downslope from the road (west side of the road) from the booth. Not sure if the local authorities have checked down there (or off the side of the road) - but just for process of elimination someone should. I can't paste the picture in but here's a link to a map that includes where the entrance booth is and the trail to the (left) on the map. So you guys back east can see what we're talking about.
http://www.nps.gov/depo/planyourvisit/loader.cfm?csModule=security/getfile&PageID=142763
Sorry if this is redundant but perhaps it should be added to the "where to look" list if it hasn't been searched already.
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SplitPants
Social climber
LA
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Aug 28, 2013 - 02:15pm PT
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LaHiker & Jeg
Jill, is that the search that was done on August 11th through 15th by Shawn, Adam, Chris, and Frank?
If so, do you know whether SplitPants has the trip report from that search, so she can incorporate it into her document and the website she's working on?
I am pretty sure I captured this information (belive it was posted by Teddy (though I dont know who that is). There were not really "details" per say of the trip, but mainly the bullet points Jeg/Jill posted above.
LaHiker,
Not sure of the names you mentioned. If you like PM me with more details so we dont clog the thread. Tx
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Aug 28, 2013 - 02:17pm PT
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I've made a Google Earth "map" of the Amphitheater Lake area showing E/NE faces of Adams highpoint(left) and lower North (right) Minaret
crusher a trail down the slope from the entrance booth that connects to the road below. I had wondered about that. Good info! Matt would certainly take that route if he were dropped off at Minaret Summit or the ski area lot. Would save him it least 3 miles.
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RM217
climber
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Aug 28, 2013 - 02:24pm PT
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Bothers me he did not take his helmet. Just seems weird given the fickle rock on climbs.
Is it unusual for Matt to hike without his helmet?
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kenish
Gym climber
Orange County, CA
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Aug 28, 2013 - 02:25pm PT
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High Traverse- Your scenario is great! My job includes failure analysis (an accident or missing person is the result of a chain of failures). You're instinctively or consciously applying "Occam's Razor"....when there's multiple theories and scenarios, pursue the one that has the fewest and the simplest assumptions. That doesn't rule out others but guides investigation down a path with the biggest chance of success.
Also, it's human nature to find patterns and create theories from facts that have no pattern or connection. Something to keep in mind as everyone helps in the search.
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SplitPants
Social climber
LA
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Aug 28, 2013 - 02:26pm PT
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phylp/crusher/hightraverse
Good points/questions. I had on my to do list to send something out concerning "easier" areas to search. If someone can come up with a list of basic trails that some of us less skilled folks can handle that would be great. I already have on my list to check the campground site #164, plus the actual campground (who knows maybe matt put a note on his tent or board in the campground that just blew up into a tree or something) and surrounding area of the campground (including roadway in/out).
We are going to be up on the 6th for the race so we have some time over the weekend to check the campground and take a couple hikes. My husband and cousin are very experienced (husband used to climb, but no longer does so due to surgery in his neck and injury to hands and shoulder). He also reads topos etc....so he can take me with (lol dont depend on me for directions...else you may wind up in Alaska ha)
Thoughts on easier/intermediate area searches useful:)
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Aug 28, 2013 - 02:45pm PT
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Another Google Earth markup
The NE Face of the Clyde Minaret, the Clyde Glacier.
The 5.5 variation of the Rock Route that Matt climbed.
And the Clyde route from the top of the Clyde glacier
Also another perspective on Clyde/Eichorn/Michael minarets
The Red pin for Cragman is approximate and for his first trip. His recent trip took him at least to the top of that gully when is the one he looked down.
Remember, this summer's snow/ice coverage is significantly less than than in these images. See Cragman and Tom Cochrane.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Aug 28, 2013 - 02:52pm PT
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Kelly, Jill
I'm going to have to take a break now for the rest of the day and get on with work. Will come back this evening.
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maverick01
climber
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Aug 28, 2013 - 03:00pm PT
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Lot of emphasis is being placed on the South Notch area and
areas north of it.
Has Kehrlein-Starr Notch been checked? It requires crampons and
a ice axe, and Starr Minaret can be climbed on the way to the
Amphitheater Lake. Also the area above Deadhorse Lake could
be an area of interest if there was a fall, it seems to be an
area that hasn't attracted anyone's interest as of yet. He climbed
Riegelhuth Minaret earlier which shows he had interest in this
part of the Minarets too.
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canyoncat
Social climber
SoCal
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Aug 28, 2013 - 03:05pm PT
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I may have missed this in the thread somewhere, but has anyone tried tracker dogs yet? It seems as though there is no shortage of clothing that Matt has worn.
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whatmeworry2
Mountain climber
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Aug 28, 2013 - 03:39pm PT
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I apologize in advance if this has been mentioned up thread or if someone is already doing this, but...
If folks could use their GPS units on their trips into the backcountry it may be possible to begin building a more comprehensive and detailed map of areas that have been searched.
By turning on your track log (or similar) feature on your GPS you can log your travel. Saving track logs into discrete "trips" will facilitate keeping multiple logs and/or allow you to exclude segments at your discretion. Once downloaded onto a computer the logs can be shared and a composite search map created. This would provide a more detailed view to what Kelly has been compiling (edited post to add this).
Many of us don't always travel with a GPS unit, but in this instance it may make some sense and help contribute to the information being compiled on the search for Matt.
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Aug 28, 2013 - 03:44pm PT
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Forgive me if this has already been addressed, I'm not reading 1000some posts to find out:
Any mtn lion activity in the area around those trails/trailheads?
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KellyDoesntClimb
Social climber
Dunwoody, GA
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Aug 28, 2013 - 03:45pm PT
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Freaky, y'all
Check this area on google maps. There is a RAINBOW over the Minarets.
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tdg119
Social climber
Northampton, PA
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Aug 28, 2013 - 03:48pm PT
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about him not taking his helmet - it was found in his car, if he left early in the morning, the garage was closed. im sure they had his keys and he could not get into his car at 3am. - Ron
EDIT: for tracker dogs - they are super expensive, there was a fire in the area, and we were told its been too long, the terrain is too difficult for dogs, etc...
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canyoncat
Social climber
SoCal
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Aug 28, 2013 - 04:01pm PT
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I thought occasionally trackers "volunteered" their dogs? As to it being too long, I'm constanting seeing stuff on TV where they try to track people months after they've been long gone. WTH?
If I were a relative, I'd sure be reaching out to see if I could find a volunteer, likelyhood of success or not.
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LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
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Aug 28, 2013 - 04:09pm PT
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Ron, thanks for the info that the helmet was in the car!
The big question is, would not having the helmet have limited what Matt decided to do? If so, that might help narrow down the excellent list of possibilities that HighTraverse and others have been generating.
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tdg119
Social climber
Northampton, PA
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Aug 28, 2013 - 04:22pm PT
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in reading Matts past TR's. Yes, not having a helmet would have limited him.
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James Wilcox
Boulder climber
The Coast
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Aug 28, 2013 - 04:45pm PT
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Contact CARDA, give them the scenario, and ask if they know a trained team nearby that could help. Many are volunteers who donate their time and dogs to the cause.
My wife is scent training a dog right now(literally) and if she was further along with her dog I know she'd do it without expectation of being paid. They just love the search.
But searching crevices does pose an obstacle
Edit: @Ron. My apologies. I have read this thread on a regular basis, but I must confess, after so many posts I have forgotten some of the content covered. Carry on.
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tdg119
Social climber
Northampton, PA
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Aug 28, 2013 - 04:54pm PT
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We have tried contacting CARDA, and many others.
"CARDA cannot deploy on search missions at the request of family or friends of the missing person. If you are in need of search and rescue services, contact the appropriate local law enforcement agency.
Please read the prior post before posting, a lot of people are getting frustrated becasue we are going in circles. The dog question has been covered many times. SAR, MONO County, MLPD, YOSAR, INYO NFS will not issue/start a formal request without a known starting location.
Thank you, Ron
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LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
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Aug 28, 2013 - 05:03pm PT
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in reading Matts past TR's. Yes, not having a helmet would have limited him.
Thanks, Ron and Tiffany! I really hope that can help Cragman, HighTraverse, and other climbers familiar with the area narrow things down.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Aug 28, 2013 - 05:10pm PT
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I think the conclusion that he went without his helmet because the car was locked away in the garage is invalid when you consider that he got the gear he chose for his objective (i.e. one tool, boot, crampons, pack) when he could. It's a safe bet he chose the gear he had with a particular objective in mind.
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LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
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Aug 28, 2013 - 05:19pm PT
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I think the conclusion that he went without his helmet because the car was locked away in the garage is invalid when you consider that he got the gear he chose for his objective (i.e. one tool, boot, crampons, pack) when he could. It's a safe bet he chose the gear he had with a particular objective in mind.
Ksolem, I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. I agree that Matt probably chose his gear with a particular objective in mind. If he had planned ahead to do a climb that required his helmet, presumably he would have gotten it from his car at the mechanics on the 16th.
(And yes, I'm also saying that if for some reason he was unable to get the helmet on the 16th, he might have modified his objective accordingly.)
As far as I know, Matt's helmet was found in his car; therefore he didn't have it with him (unless he had a second helmet, which no one has suggested).
All I'm saying is that his not having his helmet can help people figure out what his objective was.
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Paul S
Mountain climber
Portland, Or
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Aug 28, 2013 - 05:20pm PT
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I'm still unclear as to whether his lightweight trail shoes were found or are missing.
If all of his footwear was found in the campsite except his boots, he intended to climb. If the lightweight hikers are missing, he could have worn them to the start of the route and then switched into boots. Have the partners provided any input on his footwear choices for the climbs they did in the weeks prior? Did he complain about wearing boots on approaches? What about the helmet? Did he usually wear his helmet on these Sierra climbs? Would he have even attempted Ritter/Banner/Minarets sans helmet?
My theory is that Matt stashed his pack/boots/axe/crampons in an area around the campground and went for a run or hike. He may not wanted to leave those valuables in his vehicle or in the tent unattended. The perimeter of the campground should be checked - maybe his gear is stashed under a fallen log or something?
Is there any video surveillance from the laundry mat where he washed his clothes? Did he meet someone there?
Just trying to put myself in his predicament. Being in an unfamiliar town without transportation. Having all your stuff in your tent or in the trunk of your car. Doing laundry and visiting the library sounds like he was killing some time.
EDIT - helmet questions addressed above
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Aug 28, 2013 - 05:22pm PT
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All I'm saying is that his not having his helmet can help people figure out what his objective was.
Exactly my point. Upthread someone speculated that he didn't have his helmet because it was locked away in his car in the garage at 3 AM when he left to climb.
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tdg119
Social climber
Northampton, PA
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Aug 28, 2013 - 05:40pm PT
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@paul, his shoes are missing. It's as good as theory as any and a possibility. We don't want to rule anything out. Thanks for brainstorming this and your support - Ron
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MisterE
climber
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Aug 28, 2013 - 07:15pm PT
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It just struck me how oddly familiar this is to when John Rosholt went missing...
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
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Aug 28, 2013 - 07:29pm PT
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Aug 26, 2013 - 08:09pm PT
@Klimmer...
First...I want to say thanks for that link you posted (about dreams) a few pages ago. Haven't been able to get back on here till today. I appreciated the link. And I want to clarify something. I will restate I am not a psychic, have never wished to be one, etc. I have, in my life, had some weird dreams that have come to pass. Also want to say...I have never met Matt Greene in my whole life. I don't know Matt's sister, brother-in-law or any of his family or friends. My children attended the school Matt teaches at. And that is the extent of the knowledge I have of Matt and his family. I have a busy, very busy life and while I prayed for Matt and his family each night, I never dreamed that I would have a strange dream...about him. My head usually spins right before bed about all the things I will have to do tomorrow...but, my prayers were heartfelt and maybe that is why I dreamed it. I felt overwhelmed with that dream and it weighed heavy on my shoulders for a couple of weeks. When Matt's sister Tiffany went to a psychic, this is why I felt compelled to PM her and tell her of my dream. That is when I learned her husband also had a similar dream, probably earlier than I had mine. And later that evening, I learned of a former student of Matt's also having a very similar dream, after I had mine. I learned this through my son, who was told about the dream. So, this dream of the blue diamond/crystal (which is what was the common denominator) came from three different people who do not know each other, yet we all learned of the other's dreams. That is strange, and I still don't know what to make of it. All I know is that I held it inside for a while and feared that if it ever came out that he was near something I may have seen in my dream, well, I couldn't live with myself if I never divuldged that information. I don't want to cause a change in search plans. Whatever the blue diamond/crystal is... could be anything. Sometimes snow looks blue, could be a rock, water, something he was wearing, or something as simple as a blue diamond. Or perhaps, just a small clue that will lead to the next clue... I just don't know. But, where it seems to have led is to a pair of glasses that we can pretty much rule out as being Matt's. But the glasses have seem to have led to some National coverage, also. And they may not be his, but, maybe it's just the next clue... a silent voice, a picture of a pair of glasses hanging on a "hiking" sign... Maybe the glasses are just to tell us to "keep looking" and we will "see."
I tried to PM this to you Klimmer...but your PM is disabled. You are very passionate...and supportive and I felt like I needed to tell you these things.
Can another thread be started?:
Is it possible that all 3 people can separately write down their dreams in fine detail: RM217, Ron, and Student. Would the 3 of them be willing to do so and share them? Including what they first thought/experienced when they saw the images of the found glasses for the first time? Can another thread be started where the dreams are shared in detail including what the psychic had to say?
Without judgement or ridicule from anyone on ST, can this be done and shared?
I really think there is an answer there. I sincerely believe it was foul play.
Genesis 4:9-10
Proverbs 3:5-6
http://www.gotquestions.org/Christian-dream-interpretation.html
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Alpineholydog
Trad climber
Spring Tx
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Aug 28, 2013 - 07:57pm PT
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I wish I had the ability to search it properly but given his equipment (cramons,axe,boots, no Helmet) and his ability.... I would have gone for Ritter doing Muir's route via the Ritter Banner Notch then Descending the SE glacier. Class 3 mostly. I think he would have felt comfortable with his gear and the hike. Plus it would be a great capper given he climbed Clyde. Kind of the Alpha and Omega of the area. Just thoughts.....
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KellyDoesntClimb
Social climber
Dunwoody, GA
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Aug 28, 2013 - 07:58pm PT
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https://mapsengine.google.com/map/edit?mid=zH95mGu2yK0M.k0POTplcpetE
I keep updating my map, going back and forth to Bing, Google Earth, National Parks maps, Chapter 12 maps and descriptions, etc.
RED shows places/trails I believe have been covered. Please let me know if locations or anything else is wrong and I will work on it.
I have some ideas/questions; on my map they are YELLOW. If any have been completed, let me know.
Trails:
Trail from Agnew Meadows TH to Starkweather Lake
Duck Pass
Trail from Ashley Lake to Iron Mt (check register/summit as well)
Trail to Superior Lake
Areas:
Grounds of Shadow Lake
Grounds of Olaine Lake
Agnew Meadows - was the whole meadow checked? Just the trail? Lower trail or Higher?
Grounds of Lake Ediza
Grounds of Superior Lake
Crystal Lake/Crystal Crag
...What about town? Baseball fields to the NE of his camp? The resort area? Have all Minaret summits been checked?
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Mtnmun
Trad climber
Top of the Mountain Mun
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Aug 28, 2013 - 08:01pm PT
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Chrystal Mountain comes to mind for the blue crystal dream. perhaps he went through there. Has anyone contacted Tom Browns Tracker Team? They know their shizzle.
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Alpineholydog
Trad climber
Spring Tx
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Aug 28, 2013 - 08:28pm PT
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Mammoth taxi says they had no contact with him for early ride from town up to trailhead. FYI
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LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
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Aug 28, 2013 - 08:41pm PT
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Klimmer, if you want to make a separate thread, why not do so?
I do think you will have better results if you leave the sectarian material out of it.
ETA: Looks like Tiffany has started a thread for dreams and visions -- link is a couple of posts down.
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jeg
Social climber
center valley,Pa
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Aug 28, 2013 - 08:46pm PT
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High Traverse...
"I think the perimeter of the base of the cliffs (above the talus, below the glacier edges) from Iceberg Lake, going right to left, past Clyde and Ken, through South Notch, around Amphitheater Lake (base of Ken, Clyde, Eichorn, Michael and Adams minarets) and continuing around the west side of Adams and Michael to the west base of Eichhorn should be searched."
On 8/12 Matt's friends clibed from Cecile lake up through south notch and traversed to amphitheater lake. Searched both shores, climbed up to saddle between adams and michael and descended gully on other side of saddle. Then climbed back over saddle and climbed amph. gully, searched upper reaches of the 3 west gullies on michael. They did not search lower halves of the western gullies. not sure if that has been checked. If not good place to check.
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jeg
Social climber
center valley,Pa
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Aug 28, 2013 - 08:51pm PT
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High Traverse...
"I don't believe there's been a search of the "backsides" of the Minarets-Ritter-Banner but that would have been a real stretch for a day trip from the east side of the range.
Of course Matt could have fallen west from one of the saddles after coming from the east.
The west sides should not be ignored."
On 8/11 friends searched ...climbed from cecile lake up to Minaret glacier to north notch over north notch and down gully on west side. searched a bit around base of gully and gully behing dyer and dawson. That coupled with the search over the south notch was the extent of the search on the west side that we know has been done.
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jeg
Social climber
center valley,Pa
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Aug 28, 2013 - 09:03pm PT
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High Traverse...
The day amphitheater gully was searched another climber scrambled to the top of adams from the adams michael saddle. Did not find Matt's name in register.
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SalNichols
Big Wall climber
Richmond, CA
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Aug 28, 2013 - 09:11pm PT
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There is a way to narrow the search volume that uses what little evidence we have and weights it based upon Matt's historical behavior.
For example, right now everyone, and I mean everyone is considering EVERY small piece of evidence to be equal in value. What this causes is a search in every direction. It's bloody pointless. Matt didn't go EVERYWHERE.
What I'm proposing to the family is that we develop a target list of search areas (i.e. climbs and or hikes) that Matt would be MOST LIKELY to attempt, based upon what he has attempted in the past, how he attempted them, and whether or not he moderated the difficulty of his ascents based upon whether or not he had a partner.
Basically, this is a probability matrix based upon WHAT WE KNOW. In particular, it requires everyone to be really honest about Matthew and how he "did things". What do I mean? Matthew is a mathematician. I don't know a single one of them, and I've had theoretical mathematicians working for me for 30 years, that thrived on chaos. If you were to tell me that his apartment, minimalist as it was, was VERY NEAT and ORDERLY, it would not only not shock me, it helps us develop a behavioral profile of him. I read every word of the blog that was linked to his FB search page. IMHO, this was a man that measured personal risk carefully. He was fit, had great endurance, and likely had skills in 2013 that exceeded those that he described in his blog...yet he wasn't a risk taker.
So, what am I saying? Based upon the descriptions of the terrain that Dean has searched, IMHO we've been looking in the wrong places. Dean's mountaineering skills likely exceeded Matt's, and there were places Dean wouldn't go. Nowhere in Matt's writings did he ever put himself in a situation where he faced a death fall. This was no dumbassed tourist. This is a very bright man who performed risk analysis on his efforts.
The key to this, and Matt would like it probably, is his own past behavior. We don't have much to go on beyond what he did in the past. Based upon his blog, if he was alone he most likely didn't set out for anything 4th class or above. While he had marathon legs, he wasn't doing a marathon day. Unless someone in his family were to tell me that he'd blow off picking up his car when it was ready, he fully intended this being a day trip. Mathematicians need order, hell, their entire purpose for being is to create order. Whatever he did, it wouldn't deviate from this basic behavioral trait.
Sometime yesterday, I asked if anyone was building a matrix/spreadsheet of the climbs available to Matt in the missing 30 pages of the Secor guide. I don't want to step on anyone's toes here, but I have a basic structure for how to build the evidence matrix in mind. If you'd like, I'll take it on. I can build the basic structure, but it will require his family and climbing partners to make it worthwhile. We don't need to be looking everywhere, we need to be looking where Matt would be most likely to go.
Re: aerial imagery. At this point we need resolution of less than 1m2 to find him. God bless Tom Cochrane, but he's just not going to get there with his RED camera. I can't get there with a Predator lacking a heat signature, and I can't do it with overhead sources. It's not worth the risk to Tom and Chelsea to be flying another mission unless they can deliver that kind of resolution in a greatly reduced search volume.
Gang, I can tell you EXACTLY how hard it is to find something as large as a SCUD missile launcher. Finding Matt is orders of magnitude more difficult.
If you want me to help, PM me. Otherwise, I'll butt out.
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tdg119
Social climber
Northampton, PA
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Aug 28, 2013 - 09:13pm PT
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My dream was Matt holding a long crystal, almost clear whitish blue, about 2.5 feet long. it was less about a diamond, but had A Gem like quality, like a big solid icicle. He was standing up, no hat or helmet, he looked good, like he was not injured or anything, just standing there. Like he was trying to hand me the crystal but was too far away and just could not reach me. Then i woke up, it was intense, it woke me up with a sense of panic. I quickly went back to sleep. No backpack, that I remember, a tee shirt on, with bare arms.
I have never been to or even heard of mammoth lakes before this. The next day I just put the 3 things into google ( crystal, gem and Mammoth lakes). I was surprised to see so many places pop up, gem lake, crystal mountain, crystal lake, etc.. My immediate reaction was this is it, it's crystal lake, but everyone said there is no snow there, it's well traveled, etc. and it just did not fit the facts. So I dismissed it.
When I first saw the glasses, I did not really feel this was what I dreamed or that it was related. but I was surprised by the similarities and hard time dismissing it. I did get excited that we had a strong potential lead. I was the first person to call Alex when he found them, and I said "dude, I have to ask, did you plant these?" The similarities seemed too perfect. he said no way man I'm not like that, and I believe him.
Last week I had another weird dream, it was like I was half awake, half asleep. I felt possessed, I was on my back but could not move my arms or legs. I remember saying "tiff","tiff".
Also last week, I went to Matt's house to go through all his stuff, nothing seemed unusual. Except I found a bag of arrow heads (like old Indian ones) they seemed to pull on me. A few days later while looking at the maps I noticed crystal lake was shaped like an arrow head and I thought wow that's weird. I dismissed it as a coincidence, again it did not fit the facts.
First off, I don't believe in this psychic mumbo jumbo. Secondly, I am only reporting this because we really have nothing to go on and we are grasping at straws, so what the hell...
-Ron
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monolith
climber
SF bay area
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Aug 28, 2013 - 09:15pm PT
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Matt did solo a 5.4 route on Clyde Minaret, so I would include all low 5th class routes as well. It would be nice to make a list of possible routes and start ticking them off.
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10b4me
Ice climber
Wishes-He-Was-In-Arizona
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Aug 28, 2013 - 09:17pm PT
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"Is it possible that all 3 people can separately write down their dreams in fine detail..."
Klimmer, you are truly batshit crazy.
It had to be said.
+1
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SalNichols
Big Wall climber
Richmond, CA
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Aug 28, 2013 - 09:30pm PT
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Re: psychics...if they were actually psychic, they wouldn't need to interview the interested party to "prime the psychic pump". You either know or you don't. You could input tha psychic into a probability matrix, but it would be rated somewhere below hearsay, ("Matt talked about climbing Ritter").
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SalNichols
Big Wall climber
Richmond, CA
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Aug 28, 2013 - 09:36pm PT
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What you think is outlandish, spur of the moment behavior...likely isn't. That being said, you haven't offered anything, and it's no skin off my ass either way. Strap on your pack, pick a random trail and peak and go searching. I offered to help, not to argue.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
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Aug 28, 2013 - 09:37pm PT
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Ron,
Thank you very much. You have said a great deal.
(I have to wear an armored suit of Teflon and asbestos around here just to survive.)
Sharing the dreams in detail, that is what I hope RM217 can do also. And perhaps the student who had Matt as a teacher.
My fellow teachers/colleagues we went back to school today.
I think about Matt often, though i dont know him. We're both teachers and climbers.
I'm sad for everyone.
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tdg119
Social climber
Northampton, PA
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Aug 28, 2013 - 09:43pm PT
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Everything sal said is spot on about Matt. Remember some of the things in his diary were from 15 ago when he 25. He even mentions at one point "that risks he saw others taking reminded him of when he was 25, young and stupid. He is 39 now, more mature, etc...he is more conservative, experienced, etc...I would love to help you sal but I'm not a climber, I don't know routes, trailhead or that stuff. One of the reasons we are on supertopo is to understand and ask for the climbing communities help. I can tell you about Matt but not about climbing. Let me know what you need. - its a logical well thought approach and makes sense. - Ron
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LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
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Aug 28, 2013 - 09:46pm PT
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@Monolith -- but would Matt have done solo low class 5 climbs without his helmet?
From what people say about him, it doesn't sound that way. Especially now that we hear that his helmet may have been at the campsite after all -- it would have been very easy for him to take it if he had intended to do something where he needed it.
@Ron -- interesting dream and details. Maybe, to keep that stuff together, you could repost it in Tiffany's new "Mammoth topography in regard to visions (FindMattGreene)" thread?
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=2213600&tn=0#msg2213630
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SalNichols
Big Wall climber
Richmond, CA
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Aug 28, 2013 - 09:54pm PT
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Ron,
I'll start working on it. Give me a couple of days.
Nick
I'm going to need to pick some local area experts brains. Crag or anyone INTIMATELY familiar with he area that is willing to endure a few phone calls, pls PM me with a number. Phone charges are on me.
Nick
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monolith
climber
SF bay area
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Aug 28, 2013 - 09:56pm PT
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Good point. I did not consider the helmet. He might if he got an early start and would be on a route that gets little traffic so no one above him. Or, he just might have forgotten his helmet, like a lot of us have.
I guess the most likely possibility is he left the helmet behind on purpose.
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LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
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Aug 28, 2013 - 10:03pm PT
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Monolith -- it's a point that Matt might have forgotten his helmet, though it surprises me that someone would go to the trouble to bring ice axe, crampons, and Sportivas and but would forget their helmet.
If he did intend to bring his helmet and then had forgotten it, I wonder if he would have changed his plan once he realized he didn't have it...
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monolith
climber
SF bay area
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Aug 28, 2013 - 10:12pm PT
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Ron is old-school, just like me. I didn't start wearing a helmet regularly till about 10 years ago, after they became light and more comfortable.
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crankster
Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
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Aug 28, 2013 - 10:16pm PT
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If every picture of Matt climbing anything remotely serious shows him climbing with a helmet, then the fact he did not take his helmet IS significant.
Did he take it with him when he went solo? Some climbers only wear them to protect from a partners potential rock fall.
Look for patterns. He was climbing Sierra classics: V-Notch Couloir, Dana Couloir, North Peak Couloir, Clyde Minaret....
Ritter is the biggest peak in the area, a beacon for miles. No evidence he had climbed it previously.
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SalNichols
Big Wall climber
Richmond, CA
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Aug 28, 2013 - 10:18pm PT
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Hell, if someone wants an old school MSR that has been worn exactly one frigging uncomfortable time, let me know and I'll bequeath it to you in my will.
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LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
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Aug 28, 2013 - 10:19pm PT
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Ron Anderson and Monolith,
You guys sound like a bunch of bikers -- "repeal helmet laws"! ;-)
Of course, the question is whether Matt would have taken a helmet if he had intended to do climbs above a certain level. Ron or Tiffany said:
in reading Matts past TR's. Yes, not having a helmet would have limited him.
Perhaps we could double-check this by looking at some of past TRs and by getting the input of people who climbed with him.
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SalNichols
Big Wall climber
Richmond, CA
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Aug 28, 2013 - 10:20pm PT
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Hey, I gave my copy of 50 Classics to Chicken Skinner. Which Minarets Routes were in it?
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crankster
Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
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Aug 28, 2013 - 10:22pm PT
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SE Face Clyde Minaret, 5.8. That's been ruled out as a climb he would solo. He was using Secor's guidebook, not Roper's.
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SalNichols
Big Wall climber
Richmond, CA
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Aug 28, 2013 - 10:29pm PT
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CrAnkster,
That's exactly the kind of input I need. Thanks.
Nick
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SplitPants
Social climber
LA
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Aug 28, 2013 - 10:31pm PT
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SalNichols
(FYI) I sent you a PM
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crankster
Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
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Aug 28, 2013 - 10:50pm PT
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Suggestion:
I've been following this thread for almost a month. I still don't have a clear timeline of Matt's activities while he was in Mammoth (could be just me), what he did with his friends and what he did on his own. I know the basics, but it seems like all pertinent information is being given to the MLPD, SAR & some others via phone calls, etc. I'm not sure all that is known has been given here. If it has, I'd suggest it be condensed into a list.
The reason is, again, to establish any possible patterns and try to predict as much as possible what he might have done on July 17th. I'm aware climbers can be totally spontaneous, too.
Can we get a daily accounting of his activities, calls, texts, climbs? I know his laundry was clean and he had apparently been in town on the 16th. Seeing everything in chronological order would be helpful, I think. I'm not suggesting the family is not sharing information.
Like this (example, not actual facts):
July 6: took car to shop. Hiked to XYZ Lake with friends
July 7/8: V-Notch with John
July 9: rest day, library
Etc...
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SplitPants
Social climber
LA
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Aug 28, 2013 - 11:08pm PT
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Crankster & All,
We have been working on this behind the scenes so as to not cloud up this thread. I am going to attach what we have so far, but please understand it is still a work in progress(draft) and it is being validated by several people behind the scenes. Which means subject to change. I will follow with separate posts because it won't let me load all of this under a single post.
CHARACTERISTICS
GEAR
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SplitPants
Social climber
LA
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Aug 28, 2013 - 11:09pm PT
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Timeline (sorry about the copy/paste format, I dont have time to tweak right now)
The following is a chronological timeline from when Matt arrived in Mammoth Lakes until he went missing on July 17, 2013. This page also contains important facts not tied to specific dates.
Notes:
1. For phone and text message information: text message times posted as ET and PT conversion has been added. For phone calls the times posted to the forum are PT and ET conversions have been added. Phone and text information posted by Tiffany.
2. Posts to summitpost.com -The server is 8 hours ahead of PDT, not 7. Suspect someone else also made an error due to daylight saving as the server appears 1 hour ahead of GMT. Be advised to confirm post time directly with summitpost.com
3. Items shaded in yellow is to draw attention to the comment/fact.
4. Items in red font are those that require confirmation/unknown
5. Historical weather reports were checked for dates 7/14 through 7/21. Nothing of significance was found except some precipitation on 7/21.
Climbs done in the area prior to 7/13 [as reported by Tom Davidcock, Jill & John]
(6/29) Rock climbing Crystal Crag with Jill & John
(6/30) Rock climbing Clark Canyon with Jill & John
(7/1) Rock climbing Iris Slabs with Jill & John
(7/2) North Peak via North Coulior with Jill & John
(7/3) Rock climbing Gong Show Crag with Jill & John
(7/4) Rock Climbing Benton Crags with Jill & John
(7/5 & 7/6) V notch route on polemonium and peak Palisades v Notch with Jill & John
Hiked in 7/5 in the evening, camped and got an early start on 7/6
Per summitpost on 7/8 by Matt "Did the V-Notch on Saturday, July 6th. We easily crossed the schrund via a snow bridge at the far left side. We studied the route well for signs of rockfall before committing, and only had one baseball sized rock rocket down during our ascent. Tons of rocks were falling down the U-Notch, though." See detailed timeline below for link and screen capture of post.
(7/7) Hiked to Emerald Lake to Mammoth Crest with Jill & John
(7/8) Reigeluth Minaret (solo)
Per Jeg/Jill on 8/27 from when she checked her husbands text from Matt "the reigelhuth minaret took less that 6.5 hrs r/t to hike and climb but was scary and the Dana couloir was easy but fun and had the best ice of the trip." As far as we know he didn't climb Michael minaret.
Forum comment/observation from [High Fructose Corn Spirit] on 8/28 regarding this new information "So apparently Matt did not climb the SE Face on the 11th or 12 but some variation on the East."
(7/9) Dana Coulior (solo)
See comment under Reigeluth Minaret
(7/11) Clyde Minaret-verified with registry signature (solo)
Per Jeg/Jill on 8/27 "I looked back at my husband's text from Matt and he said he did" a fun and absolutely classic scramble up the 5.5 direct variation of the rock route on the Clyde minaret"
(7/12) Mammoth Crest (solo)
(7/13) Unicorn Peak (solo)
JUNE 28TH TO JULY 17TH TIMELINE DETAILS
June 28th (Friday)
Matt arrived in Mammoth and met up with friends (Jill and John who were with him up until July 7th)
Friends indicate Matt’s car was in and out of the shop since he arrived in Mammoth (thermostat replacement etc…). He knew driving to mammoth something was wrong with his car and dropped it off at the shop the first day. They tried changing the thermostat twice but when Matt would test drive it, he knew it wasn't fixed. He finally took it in for the 3rd time on July 5 and was told it was the head gasket. He was told they couldn't start working on it until July 9.
Matt was staying at the Shady Rest Campground
Campground payment was made day-to-day and in advance
Credit card charge Norco Service Center in the amount of $152.92
Post to summitpost.com http://www.summitpost.org/phpBB3/post927240.html#p927240
Matthew Greene summitpost
June 29th (Saturday)
Rock climbing Crystal Crag with Jill & John
June 30th (Sunday)
Rock climbing Clark Canyon with Jill & John
Credit card charge for Vons in the amount of $37.37
July 1st (Monday)
Rock climbing Iris Slabs with Jill & John
Credit card charge for Chevron in the amount of $46.47
July 2nd (Tuesday)
North peak via north coulior with Jill & John
July 3rd (Wednesday)
Rock climbing Gong Show Crag with Jill & John
July 4th (Thursday)
7/4-Rock Climbing Benton Crags with Jill & John
Matt’s car (Subaru) broke down (head gasket issues) around the 4th. Matt had to wait for the holiday to pass to get the car into the shop. Car left with Norco Goodyear repair shop with plans to stay behind and wait for the repair. Plans to meet up with friends in CO down the line. Was planning on being back home in PA on 8/18 at the latest.
Car repair was due to be completed on July 18th at which point Matt was planning on leaving town
July 5th and 6th (Friday and Saturday)
V notch route on polemonium and peak Palisades v Notch with Jill & John
Hiked in 7/5 in the evening, camped and got an early start on 7/6
Per Matt's post to summitpost.com on July 8th (see 7/8 for screen capture) "Did the V-Notch on Saturday, July 6th. We easily crossed the schrund via a snow bridge at the far left side. We studied the route well for signs of rockfall before committing, and only had one baseball sized rock rocket down during our ascent. Tons of rocks were falling down the U-Notch, though"
July 7th (Sunday)
Hiked to emerald lake to mammoth crest with Jill & John
Hiking companions/friends Jill and John left the Mammoth Lakes area
Credit card charge for Rite-Aid in the amount of $12.18
July 8th (Monday)
Reigeluth Minaret (solo)
Per Jeg/Jill on 8/27 from when she checked her husbands text from Matt "the reigelhuth minaret took less that 6.5 hrs r/t to hike and climb but was scary and the Dana couloir was easy but fun and had the best ice of the trip." As far as we know he didn't climb Michael minaret.
Forum comment/observation from [High Fructose Corn Spirit] on 8/28 regarding this new information "So apparently Matt did not climb the SE Face on the 11th or 12 but some variation on the East."
Credit card charge for Vons in the amount of $14.48
Posted to summitpost.com http://www.summitpost.org/phpBB3/palisades-conditions-t65093-30.html
Matthew Greene summitpost
July 9th (Tuesday)
Dana Coulior (solo)
July 10th (Wednesday)
Rested (per Jill)
7/10 4:59 PM ET / 1:59 PM PT 15 Peak -- (parents)
7/10 5:26 PM ET / 2:26 PM PT 3 Peak
Credit card charge for Vons in the amount of $23.53
July 11th (Thursday)
Log does not show any voice or text messages
Took the shuttle and climbed Clyde Minaret (confirmed) -solo
[ddsstyle] "I am a maintenance worker at Devils Postpile NM. I ride the shuttle bus every day from Mammoth to work at the Postpile. My birthday is july 16th. I was on the first bus of the day at 7:15 that morning. I think there is a possibility that I saw Matthew that morning. There is also a possibility this interaction occurred on the 11 or 12 of july. The person I spoke with fits his description very well. He was wearing glasses on the bus and told me about how his subaru blew a head gasket. He said he had been in Mammoth for several days. He had a medium sized day pack. No gear was attached to the outside. I believe he said he was from the east coast. maybe PA or NY... We spoke about doing Ritter, Banner, Clyde, and the cross country hike between Ediza, Iceberg, Cecile, and Minaret lake. He was unclear of his itinerary for the day when he got of the bus at Devils Postpile. Can anyone confirm any info for me such as his hometown, if he wore glasses, and if he did indeed drive a subaru? There is also a possibility that this interaction occurred on the bus a few days prior, like on july 11 or 12. The reason that I feel the interaction may have happened a few days prior to the 16th is that I think I recall talking about how I was going to do Middle Palisade on the 14th...I just cant be sure when the interaction took place, which is killing me right now... I am leaning more towards prior to the 16th. Can anyone say if he had been day tripping into the reds meadow valley in the days prior to his disappearance? His photo and physical build jumped right out at me. The fact about the car also jumped out at me. My gut and the facts presented tells me Matthew is the person I had this interaction with, and that is occurred prior to the 16th. I just cant place the exact date. I have been in contact with the Mono County Sheriff... sending good vibes to all his family and friends..."
[ddsstyle] "I just saw the pic posted above. I am certain my interaction was with Matthew... again I just cant place the date...the more I think about it, the more I remember talking about DOING middle palisade on the 14th. The more I think, the more I feel our interaction happened prior to my bday on the 16th. I think I am just conflicted on dates because since it was my bday, it is jumping out at me for some weird reason. again I have contacted the Mono County Sheriff and hope to god this turns out good."
[TeddyKGBee/Tom] Later confirmed it was 7/11 that Matt took the shuttle.
This same day he talked to a local maintenance worker at Devils Postpile NM (via shuttle ride) about Ritter, banner, and the cross country hike between Ediza, Iceberg, Cecile, and Minaret Lake.
July 12th (Friday)
Mammoth Crest (solo)
7/12 8:10 PM ET / 5:10 PM PT 2 Peak -- (repair shop)
7/12 8:13 PM ET / 5:13 PM PT 1 Peak -- (repair shop)
Credit card charge for Rite-Aid in the amount of $15.19
July 13th (Saturday)
Unicorn Peak (solo)
7/13 7:15 PM ET / 4:15 PM PT Text Sent
7/13 7:21 PM ET / 4:21 PM PT Text Received
7/13 7:41 PM ET / 4:41 PM PT Text Sent
Credit card charge for Vons in the amount of $39.22
July 14th (Sunday)
Hiking/climbing/rest activity is unknown for this day per Jill
7/14 5:13 PM ET / 2:13 PM PT Text Received
7/14 5:24 PM ET / 2:24 PM PT Text Sent
7/14 5:50 PM ET / 2:50 PM PT Text Received
7/14 11:03 PM ET / 8:03 PM PT 1 Off-Peak -- (voicemail)
July 15th (Monday)
Was seen on Yarts bus going to Toulomne to climb some domes??? per Jill [unconfirmed]
7/15 8:04 AM ET / 5:04 AM PT 2 Off-Peak
7/15 9:01 AM ET / 6:01 AM PT 2 Peak
7/15 3:21 PM ET / 12:21 PM PT Text Received
7/15 7:44 PM ET / 4:44 PM PT Text Sent
7/15 7:46 PM ET / 4:46 PM PT 1 Peak -- (voicemail)
7/15 8:49 PM ET / 5:49 PM PT 2 Peak
7/15 9:34 PM ET / 6:34 PM PT 1 Peak -- (voicemail)
7/15 9:35 PM ET / 6:35 PM PT 7 Peak
7/15 9:46 PM ET / 6:46 PM PT 1 Peak -- (voicemail)
7/15 10:34 PM ET / 7:34 PM PT Text Received
7/15 10:36 PM ET / 7:36 PM PT Text Sent
7/15 10:38 PM ET / 7:38 PM PT Text Received
July 16th (Tuesday)
7/16 11:12 AM ET / 8:12 AM PT 1 Peak -- (voicemail)
At about 2:45 PM (Pacific Time?) Matt posted to summitpost.com via the local library
http://www.summitpost.org/view_object.php?object_id=408661&type=vote_comments&discussion_id=473067#473067
7/16 6:00 PM ET / 3:00 PM PT Text Sent
7/16 6:06 PM ET / 3:06 PM PT 24 Peak -- (parents)
From 8:12 AM to 3:06 PM cell phone registered:
Lat 37.638167 Lon -118.961611, 1601 Meridian Blvd, Mammoth Lakes, Ca.
Directly south of the library. Directly north a mile or two from where Matt was camping.
7/16 7:29 PM ET / 4:29 PM PT 1 Peak -- (repair shop)
7/16 7:35 PM ET / 4:35 PM PT 2 Peak -- (repair shop)
From 4:29 PM to 4:35 PM cell phone registered:
Lat 37.630528 Log -119-033078, 5920 Minaret Rd, Mammoth Lakes, Ca, top of Mammoth Mountain.
This is the last phone call from Matt’s phone (per MLPD no more pings after the 16th of July at 4:35 pm)
7/16 7:40 PM ET / 4:40 PM PT Text Sent
7/16 8:57 PM ET / 5:57 PM PT Text Received
7/16 9:13 PM ET / 6:13 PM PT Text Sent
7/16 10:38 PM ET / 7:38 PM PT Text Received
7/16 10:52 PM ET / 7:52 PM PT Text Received
7/16 11:09 PM ET / 8:09 PM PT Text Sent
7/16 11:34 PM ET / 8:34 PM PT Text Received
Stayed at the campsite and also paid for next day’s stay (the 17th)
Credit card charge for Rite-Aid in the amount of $16.13 [needs follow up]
Purchase detail could provide valuable clue(s). Video may show glasses and/or clothing and/or someone with Matt.
From the clothing Matt was wearing taking into the clothing he left behind close friends may be able to determine what he may have been wearing when he went missing.
Per MLPD Verizon re: text message retrieval. Verizon only holds that information for about 3 to 4 days. Per Verizon too much time has passed by.
Credit and debit card(s) were NOT used after 7/16/13
Earthquake activity: http://volcanodiscovery.com/mammoth_mountain-earthquakes/archive/2013-jul.html
July 17th (Wednesday)
07/17 5:53 AM ET / 2:53 AM PT Text Received
Family traced who sent that last txt message and made contact but unfortunately the individual does not remember what he'd said and it's no longer on his phone.
Per MLPD: 2:48 pm, July 17, 2013, 39 Pinecrest, Mammoth Lakes, Ca, Verizon building and tower. This address is the main Verizon building/tower in Mammoth Lakes. There is no activity after the 16th of July, as indicated on my Verizon emergency request re: Greene’s cell phone, his phone was turned off/powered off. The 2:48 pm is not a ping, because there is no Lat & Lon indicated.
Per MLPD: Verizon nor any other cellular service provider ping text, it pings the telephone when the telephone is on, not turned off.
Per MLPD: From July 17, 2013 to July 30, 2013, 39 Pinecrest, Mammoth Lakes, Ca
Earthquake activity http://volcanodiscovery.com/mammoth_mountain-earthquakes/archive/2013-jul.html
ADDITIONAL FACTS (WITHOUT SPECIFIC DATES) & INFORMATION
Matt removed pages 369 to 398 (Chapter 12) from a book he had called The Hugh Sierra by R.J. Secor Third Edition
The Lyell pages were untouched. Ritter/Banner were the only snow routes in the area of torn pages and Matt was geared for snow.
Matt would text his friend John every few days up until July 13 and would give him an update on his car and what climbs he did (this is how the list of previous visits was compiled).
Matt was staying at the Shady Rest Campground site #164.
Upon inspection of Matt’s camp site everything was laundered, neatly folded and organized like he'd just done laundry. No doubt preparing to leave town.
Camp host did not speak to Matt on or near date he went missing.
Matt paid for his camp site daily and a day in advance. He had paid for the site through the 17th since his car was supposed to be ready on the 18th upon which time he was planning on leaving.
The camp host did not report Matt missing when he never returned, even though he paid for that night in advance.
The camp host placed Matt’s his tent into storage when Matt never came back and failed to call the police.
MLPD talked to the campers who camped on each side of Greene’s camp site 164. It was a family that paid for camp site 163 & 165. They left a few days prior to the 16th of July, and didn’t relay converse with Greene. They had no information.
MLPD indicated they only requested cell tower pings for calls not text messages. Per MLPD Verizon can’t ping a text just calls or if your phone is currently on.
Hospitals were notified of Matt's disappearance, as well as homeless shelters and hostels in the area - not sure how far that notification stretches though [dates of notifications unknown].
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SplitPants
Social climber
LA
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Aug 28, 2013 - 11:13pm PT
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Matts climbs (confirmed)
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Mtnmun
Trad climber
Top of the Mountain Mun
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Aug 28, 2013 - 11:32pm PT
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//The Muir route on Ritter or the 4th class now 5.8 on Banner, would have made for an easy day trip. Easy for Matts accomplishments but crazy exposed if he slipped.
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crankster
Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
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Aug 28, 2013 - 11:34pm PT
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Wow, wow, wow, SplitPants, the treasure trove of information! I'll need to read it a dozen times (and will) to absorb it.
First impressions:
Matt flat got after it. Didn't take rest days and go to the hot springs, etc. He was maximizing his climbing time there. No way he just went for a little hike on the 17th. I think he was going big on his last full day in Mammoth; a classic he'd had his eye on.
He knew public transportation and used it at least twice to go to Tuolumne to climb Dana and Unicorn, I speculate. These would not be fun hitch's, I'm thinking he took YARTS. No CC receipts of trips, so he paid cash. Might have gone farther afield on the 17th than I had thought. He liked Tuolumne.
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Crazy Bat
Sport climber
Birmingham, AL & Seweanee, TN
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Aug 28, 2013 - 11:36pm PT
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I was told about a cave rescue a couple of years ago. A group, who had never been in the cave, was trying to go from one entrance to another. They had a map of the cave.
The first rescue group to go in had along a guy who had never been in the cave before. He took the map and tried to follow it. He led them straight to the lost party.
Could someone, who has never been to the area, take the guidebook missing pages and try to retrace his route to the most likely destination?
Folks who know the area wouldn't make the same route finding mistakes, unless they were very common mistakes that SAR deals with all the time.
Just my thoughts after following this post.
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LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
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Aug 28, 2013 - 11:37pm PT
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@SplitPants, your latest compilation of information and especially those timelines in tabular form are great!
Are you still thinking of up putting it all on a separate website, or will you simply post updated versions here?
@Crankster and Alli, I don't know whether you know that SplitPants has put an earlier version of all this info in PDF and Word format. But it sounds like she's almost ready with the updated version...
@Crazy Bat -- interesting idea. The problem is that Matt cut out 30 pages of Secor -- I think they included the whole Banner/Ritter range -- not sure what else!
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SplitPants
Social climber
LA
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Aug 28, 2013 - 11:38pm PT
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Ok.............question everyone.
After you all read the draft information I posted. Think............If I was Matt and had one last day in Mammoth where would I go that I could do in a day?
Look at the facts (e.g. no helmet, yet in every climbing pic he is wearing one), known to go off course (so means he might climb without a helmet)......etc.....
Post your "thoughts" and they will be captured for further analysis/questioning.
Thanks
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SalNichols
Big Wall climber
Richmond, CA
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Aug 28, 2013 - 11:39pm PT
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He bought Power Bars or something like that at CVS. I'd bet $1k on it.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Aug 28, 2013 - 11:44pm PT
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Crystal Crag...?
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SplitPants
Social climber
LA
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Aug 28, 2013 - 11:51pm PT
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MGuzzy
LOL Not all the cat is out just yet.........now I am working on the other stuff......that is a little more difficult (sigh)
Hopefully this gives folks something to "chew" on for a bit.
-DRAFT-DRAFT-DRAFT-DRAFT
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granite_girl
Trad climber
Oakland
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Aug 29, 2013 - 01:47am PT
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In terms of potential routes, I would think the obvious route for Matt on his last day would have been the Southeast Glacier up Ritter, maybe via the Clyde variation, down Ritter's North Face on the opposite side, up Banner, then descent via the notch in the saddle between Banner and Ritter. Or the same trip in the opposite direction. A classic trip, and within Matt's capability. Though perhaps a bit long, particularly if he was taking the shuttle. But, Matt might have been okay with a late descent, and intended to hitch-hike back to his campsite that evening. Matt might have forgotten his helmet, or just felt that it was unnecessary on such an easy route (class 3/4). However, though the climbing is easy, a slip in many of those areas could be a disaster. Heck, just getting to the climb could be a disaster, if a boulder rolls the wrong way under your feet.
I'm not particularly familiar with this area. I assume that these are the areas that Cragman has been checking? Since Matt didn't sign either summit register, he probably never made it to the top of either peak.
Best wishes to Matt and his family.
EDIT: This is exactly the same route that GraniteHolyDog described. Backwards or forwards. I've heard of people doing it both ways.
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jeg
Social climber
center valley,Pa
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Aug 29, 2013 - 06:12am PT
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Also, group, keep in mind...
John and matt did more rock/crag climbing together that week b/c there were alot of potential thunderstorms, so they stayed away from the mountains.
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arickrock
climber
Charlotte, NC
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Aug 29, 2013 - 09:27am PT
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This forum and story although tragic has been an inspiration to follow.
In regards to the visions/dreams.....one common factor seems to be this blue diamond/crystal figure.
Just my observation from viewing the Flickr page and the discussion around the helmet.
All his climbing pictures show a Blue(in color) Black Diamond(brand) helmet.
I often try and read into my dreams but most of the time realize that its just my mind taking my experiences and distorting them in sometimes good and sometimes bad ways. The act of analyzing the dreams in itself I think is the beneficial process. It produces different angles of thought to look at the same problem through.
Just my 2 cents.....keep fighting the good fight folks! We have one awesome community to be proud of here.
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crankster
Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
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Aug 29, 2013 - 09:57am PT
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Jeg, the missing big boots, crampons, ice axe are leading everyone towards a climb involving snow/ice.
Was Matt commenting about the loose rock in the Minaret's? Cragman's TR's reiterate how dangerous the climbing is there. The Ritter Range is mostly volcanic rock, whereas Tuolumne is comparatively clean granite. With apologies to the Mammoth climbers on the post, I'd think a climber - after 2 ascents in the Minaret's- might be looking for more solid rock. He'd been to Tuolumne at least twice before.
Likely goals - Mt. Lyell or a repeat of the Dana Couloir. He mentioned it was great climbing.
He might have forgotten or not used his helmet when solo. The missing guidebook pages might have been in his pack from prior climbs.
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SplitPants
Social climber
LA
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Aug 29, 2013 - 10:10am PT
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Crankster +1
The only thing I have to add is it is my understanding (Jill/John can confirm) is the pages for Mt Lyell were left in the book and untouched.
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OutdoorGal
Social climber
Lehigh Valley, PA
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Aug 29, 2013 - 10:55am PT
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My apologies if this info is already out there, but would it be helpful (and doable) to the group here to post a list of the peaks in the pages that had been torn out by Matt? Do all the missing pages correspond only to the Ritter/Banner/Minarets areas?
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Aug 29, 2013 - 11:28am PT
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Secor 3d edition
Pages 369 - 398
From Iron Mt to the Watchtower: 3 miles
Watchtower to Banner: 3 miles
Banner to Dana Plateau 16 miles:
22 straight miles
In other words from south of the Minarets all the way to the Tioga Rd in Yosemite
That is a huge area. At least 20 major peaks (I'm not going to count them)
Known facts and my overnight hunches.
Riegelhuth solo in 6.5 hours. Assumed from TH. Decent time, not really fast. There are two 4th class routes. Lots of time for Matt to explore the region as far as Clyde and Cecile Lake.
Pre 3:00 am phone on and off but no sustained connection - accidentally flipped it open or meant to send a text/make a call and changed his mind?
Axe, crampons, boots and no helmet - always wore his helmet.
Why did he leave his helmet behind?
Possible scenario:
I'm guessing 3AM fog of mind (he didn't go to bed till after 9 PM) and a pre-arranged ride to catch.
Got in the car: later had the "oh shit" moment and decided to carry on. Possibly didn't find out till he got out of the car and shouldered his pack.
I might change my objective but would carry on.
Had climbed Clyde by the 5.5 Rock Route variation, Riegelhuth 4th class. Skilled enough for any of the Minarets to Banner 4th class routes.
His last day and had not climbed Ritter. By at least 300 feet, the highest peak in the region. SE Glacier is 3d class.
I'm guessing Ritter was his goal.
If Ritter: via Shadow Creek and Lake Ediza
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tdg119
Social climber
Northampton, PA
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Aug 29, 2013 - 11:50am PT
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no bus at 3am. if he hitched a ride, most likely someone would have come forward. if he was planning an 'epic' climb, he would have mentioned it the night before.
we are also assuming he took his gear with an objective in mind - maybe the 'objective' was so that it was not stolen. the stuff is expensive right? the crampons were not his.
no helmet (matt does not forget, he is borderline OCD)= no epic climb
no mention of it the night before while texting = no epic climb
solo = no epic climb
day trip = no epic climb
car is going to be ready tomorrow and he is planning leaving early and driving a huge distance = no epic climb
We are just assuming an epic climb becase it was his last day there. If Matt want to do something he would have already done it.
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LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
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Aug 29, 2013 - 11:52am PT
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HighTraverse,
Thanks for your clear and concise analysis. I have one question for you and one for Ron and Tiffany, both about climbing gear.
For you:
-If Matt had intended to do class 4 or 5 climbing, is there other gear he would have brought with him besides the helmet?
-Would he have also tended to bring the helmet for certain types of travel on ice and snow?
Ron and Tiffany:
Previously, one of you said
in reading Matts past TR's. Yes, not having a helmet would have limited him.
Do you happen to remember which trip reports these might have been and what he said?
It would be useful to know whether he said things like "I forgot my helmet so I couldn't do such-and-such," or "I wish I could have done such-and-such but I didn't have my helmet," OR "I didn't have my helmet, but decided to risk such-and-such anyway, and it worked out fine."
ETA: I see that in the post before, Ron/Tiffany have already addressed the evidence about whether Matt would have done an epic climb under these circumstances, though it would still be useful to what he says in trip reports about being without a helmet.
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tdg119
Social climber
Northampton, PA
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Aug 29, 2013 - 12:12pm PT
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Notes from Matt:
-As I traversed back up to the base of Tempest, I saw him running/sliding down the 2000 ft snowfield to Avalanche. He reminds me of myself at 23/24 –too risky! I told him the snowfield covered the Granite Glacier, so there were sure to be some crevasses and such. Luckily he made it OK.
-Coming up with a plan. Yellowstone, climb Teevinot (?)
-Got an early start. Had to put on crampons for 2 snowfields on the way down to the Granite/Tempest Saddle. The fields were really narrow (20-30ft) but the snow was bomber hard and a slide could’ve run me a couple hundred years down the mountain into boulders
-another nightmare drive!
-Tried to stop at a rest area in WI to sleep, but it was too loud and buggy
-Every tough pitch has an easy way out
These tell me he plans, hates driving, awakes easy, awakes early, plans a way out/escape route, is careful (not 25 anymore) and knows his limitations.
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tdg119
Social climber
Northampton, PA
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Aug 29, 2013 - 12:23pm PT
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I don't think Matt would forget his helmet. I think it had to be left intentionally. ~ Tiffany
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T_Rex
climber
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Aug 29, 2013 - 12:33pm PT
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Was Matt anxious to move on from Mammoth Lakes? Perhaps his phone call with his family/texts would indicate his state of mind with respect to feeling trapped there, or just inconvenienced by his lack of transportation.
The reason I point out: it sounds like the car situation was day-to-day. Is it possible that the mechanic told him that his car MAY be done on 7/17? If I was anxious to get out of town, I probably would have held on to the hope that the car would be done in the afternoon and stayed close to town, hoping to get the call that the car was ready.
I would be interested in hearing what the mechanic exactly told Matt about when his car would be ready. If he said MAYBE by the 18th, then it makes sense that Matt wouldn't wait around on the 17th for the car. However, if the mechanic indicated in any way that the car could be ready the 17th, would he have stayed close to town on that hope and try to catch up with his friends sooner than later?
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PAUL SOUZA
Trad climber
Central Valley, CA
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Aug 29, 2013 - 12:36pm PT
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Perhaps he took the boots, crampons, and axe for the approach to a rock route or just in case he encountered such conditions that would require said gear.
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LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
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Aug 29, 2013 - 12:37pm PT
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MGuzzy, interesting theory that Matt might have cached some gear. One piece of evidence that would weigh against it, however, would be if he left other, equally valuable, items in the tent.
So another question for Ron and Tiffany: where was the other ice axe? Was it with the tent or the car? And were other valuable items found with the tent? (If so, that might also rule out theft from the campground storage as a factor.)
Assuming for now that Matt didn't cache the items, what coherent narrative do they fit into? What tempting climbs/hikes in the area involve ice and snow, but not a helmet or other rock climbing equipment?
(These climbs might be a bit less epic than those that have mostly been focused on, of course...)
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tdg119
Social climber
Northampton, PA
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Aug 29, 2013 - 12:46pm PT
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The car was day to day, lots of back and forth. They told Matt looks like the car will be ready on the 18th. But they told him many dates up to this point. he was pissed, he told his dad he was ready to move on and wanted to get going. (again no epic hike)
My opinion, Either Matt stashed his stuff and went for a short hike, carried his stuff on a short hike (maybe to train with extra weight, doesn't matter why). By short I mean for Matt a 10 mile radius. even if he was looking for snow, it had to be close to SR. hitching a ride, epic hike, not probable.
We should get a map, draw a 10 mile radius on it from SR. Highlight area with snow, danger, 3 class,etc.. Grey out the areas we are 100 % he did not go to ( I would guess this to mean to the areas to the east ) I bet in narrows us down to 3 square miles, then more...
If it was foul play, forget it . All bets are off and no point wasting our time anyway.
Ron
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patrick compton
Trad climber
van
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Aug 29, 2013 - 12:53pm PT
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^ This. It doesn't make sense that he took heavy boots, crampons, and a single ax, but left his helmet and another ax in the car.
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Heyzeus
climber
Hollywood,Ca
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Aug 29, 2013 - 12:53pm PT
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When without a watch, I often turn my phone on in the middle of the night to see what time it is.
Did he have a watch?
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OutdoorGal
Social climber
Lehigh Valley, PA
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Aug 29, 2013 - 01:00pm PT
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Question from LAhiker:
"What tempting climbs/hikes in the area involve ice and snow, but not a helmet or other rock climbing equipment?"
I posted these comments made by forum members earlier in this thread on the "dreams" thread, but will post them here as well in case anyone wants to revisit them. I don't know whether Blue Couloir would have tempted Matt, but these comments make it sound like the hike there from Shady Rest would be about 10 miles and that Blue Couloir might have had ice/snow for Matt to explore.
POSTS FROM EASTSIDE UNDERGROUND
Blue couliar is where I would go if I wanted to test out ice gear/ boots. Very easy approach, not to far out there and one could round trip from shady without shuttle. decievingly steep and definately will find neve/ice, certianly alot closer than the Ritter range which would be a huge day from shady imo. Just an idea, who knows? Good luck
tdg119, in answer to your question, closest is Blue couliar probally under 10 mi from shady and a relatively easy approach.
Blue couliar is located on the south -east end of the mammoth creast . easily viewed from the lakes basin. out of cold water trail head take the trail to emeral lake up towards Hamil . Blue crag is the prominate feature you see on the crest looking SE. from Mammoth Mt. If Mattew was a solid ice climber blue couliar probably would not hold any interest to him, it's just the closest ice to town that I can think of, Bloody is bone dry, after a couple of poor winters only the most north facing are holding snow /ice. Sorry I don't have any photos on my computer. Cheers
POST FROM ß Î Ø T Ç H:
eastside underground's comments about the Blue Crag area has merit. Years ago I almost bought the farm there on the lower snowfield. The fact that Matt had already been climbing/ hiking Mammoth Crest - he may have been attracted back for a closer look at the interesting rock, and ice over there. It seems to me that it would be a fairly easy outing for a search party to head up the Duck Pass trail, and then back NW toward several good vantage points on the ridge overlooking the Blue Crag area, to have a look with binocs etc.
One question from me: Are "Blue Crag" and "Blue Couloir" one and the same?
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LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
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Aug 29, 2013 - 01:06pm PT
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OutdoorGal, a couloir is like a high steep valley or gully -- according to Wikipedia, a couloir is "is a narrow gully with a steep gradient in a mountainous terrain." I'm not familiar with the area, but think that Blue Couloir is next to Blue Crag.
Here's someone's report about a hike to Blue Couloir in August of 2006, with pictures:
http://highwire.stanford.edu/~galic/hiking/mammoth2006/crest.html
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tdg119
Social climber
Northampton, PA
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Aug 29, 2013 - 01:09pm PT
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Here is are Search Area. Note, Ritter and all that are out of range. Question - What is snowy, icey in this circle? ~ Ron
EDIT: this is tool i am using, just zoom and go to Mammoth Lakes: http://obeattie.github.io/gmaps-radius/
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PAUL SOUZA
Trad climber
Central Valley, CA
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Aug 29, 2013 - 01:11pm PT
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With a single axe he would have been heading for snow, not ice. Even if he was heading for ice, later realizing he had forgotten the second tool, he would have chosen an alternative route.
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tdg119
Social climber
Northampton, PA
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Aug 29, 2013 - 01:14pm PT
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ok, what area in the circle has only snow?
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OutdoorGal
Social climber
Lehigh Valley, PA
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Aug 29, 2013 - 01:18pm PT
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LAhiker: Thanks. I posted back to you in other thread too.
Wow, beautiful views (including Mammoth Mountain) from the Blue Couloir in that trip report. Thanks for posting your reply and that link. One sentence stood out to me from it (and this was August, albeit 2006):
"Plenty of soft snow in the midday. Ice axe and crampons are convenient on the steepest part."
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T_Rex
climber
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Aug 29, 2013 - 01:29pm PT
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Yes, there are lockers in the main lodge at Mammoth Mountain.
Ok,so Matt was anxious to bug out of ML. Was he calling the mechanic for updates or was the mechanic calling him? ie, would he have turned his phone on sometime on the 17th to receive a call from the mechanic? If he was AWAITING a call from the mechanic notifying him that the car was ready, he would have turned the phone on sometime later in the day, right?
If he was in the habit of keeping the phone off (to conserve battery) and only turning on to make - not to receive - calls, then it wouldn't matter. But if he was awaiting the call from the mechanic to clear out of there, maybe he would have turned it on and stayed where the phone would have received signal. That the phone never went back on after 3am could be indicative of where he went that day. (Not sure if this makes sense to anyone but me right now!)
I would just be very interested in how things were left with the mechanic.
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tdg119
Social climber
Northampton, PA
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Aug 29, 2013 - 01:33pm PT
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Areas of Interest. What can we resonably eliminate, highlight? - Ron
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kenish
Gym climber
Orange County, CA
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Aug 29, 2013 - 01:37pm PT
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Maybe I missed something but why would the contents of Matt's car be unavailable to him when Norco Goodyear was closed? Did they really keep the car inside the locked-up shop when it wasn't being "wrenched"? Is there a fenced-off secured storage area outside? They would know Matt was trustworthy and might give him a combo or key to access his car at odd hours. Or Matt may have asked the garage to keep his car in an unsecured area.
Someone at the repair shop will probably recall the parking arrangements at night. Sorry if this has been covered, and recommend adding it to Split's documents.
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LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
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Aug 29, 2013 - 01:41pm PT
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I think that we determined, after some back-and-forth, that his helmet was in the tent. Was his other ice axe also in the tent?
Ron or Tiffany, do you happen to remember this? Who retrieved his gear from the campground, or do the police have it? Is there an inventory of what was with the tent and what was in the car?
If the other ice axe and helmet were in the tent, that would argue against the idea that he cached his gear for safety while going for a brief run. (And as I said above, it might argue against the notion that there had been theft from the campground storage.)
Why cache one ice axe and leave the other one and the helmet in the tent? If he was that concerned about theft, did he cache his gear (or bring it with him) every time he went into town??
Of course, that's possible. Or maybe he had a locker somewhere. But I kind of think Matt would have mentioned that.
ETA: clarification of last sentence
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Aug 29, 2013 - 01:59pm PT
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tdg asked me two questions
-If Matt had intended to do class 4 or 5 climbing, is there other gear he would have brought with him besides the helmet?
-Would he have also tended to bring the helmet for certain types of travel on ice and snow?
--We know Matt climbed the 5.5 variation on Clyde. So he was capable of just about any 4th class. He need not have taken any climbing gear besides boots, crampons and axe. Most of the peaks can be descended without a rope - even the Clyde Minaret by down climbing to the Clyde glacier. If he didn't take a rope, this indicates he didn't plan to rappel from his objective. But that doesn't much limit his objectives (there are only 3 or 4 Minarets pinnacles that one would rapp off)
--Plenty of people have and some still do, climb easy snow and easy (not too hard or steep) ice without a helmet. If he accidentally left it behind, he may not have felt the need to go back to get it. Especially if he had caught a ride.
For clarity:
Late summer Sierra snow fields and couloirs can become icy or even solid ice. This is not to be confused with "ice climbing" which generally means steep winter ice such as Matt climbed in New York.
I've been using the term "ice" in this thread to remind us that even moderate snowfields can become icy, especially in the morning. Then often slush by mid afternoon. Matt had enough Sierra experience to know this (Clyde Minaret NE face, V notch and Dana couloirs)
We had a very dry and warm winter so July conditions were more like September (as shown in Tom C's aerials)
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LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
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Aug 29, 2013 - 02:11pm PT
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@MGuzzy -- I agree that it would be very helpful to determine whether the other ice axe was found in the camping gear or in the car. If it was in the camping gear, I think that puts the kibosh on the "caching" scenario.
But I was also saying that if Matt was concerned about the safety of his gear, wouldn't he have had to cache or bring any valuable gear every time he left the campsite for more than a few minutes? That's why I think that if he had a locker, he would have mentioned it. (I'm guessing he was in effect using the car as a locker.)
@HighTraverse, thanks for your answers to those question -- it was I who asked them. Thanks for clarifying that a rope and other climbing stuff would not have been needed. I still think that from what others have said about Matt, that he would have been unlikely to do dangerous rock climbing without a helmet. But I take your point that he could have gone on icy snow without one.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Aug 29, 2013 - 02:22pm PT
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would have been unlikely to do dangerous rock climbing without a helmet. unlikely indeed. But sometimes one man's "dangerous" is another man's "adventure"
From what I've read of Matt he would not have made a big climb in the Minarets without helmet. He might try Ritter via SE saddle where there's not a great rockfall danger.
Without helmet he would most likely also be willing to take South Notch (to Amphitheater Lake and the "back" side of the Minarets. Easy scramble with almost no rockfall hazard from there to top of Adams Minaret. Which has a precipitous northeast face above Amphitheater Lake.
In my opinion, not taking his helmet doesn't narrow the search area a lot. It does narrow places within that search area.
PS: see Just In Time's TR on Ritter/Banner from the west. No helmets taken, none really needed.
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LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
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Aug 29, 2013 - 02:42pm PT
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Thanks, HighTraverse! As long as it narrows something down, that's good...
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patrick compton
Trad climber
van
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Aug 29, 2013 - 02:59pm PT
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I must be missing something, but why would one take heavy boots and crampons but not a helmet... to do any kind of climb? A helmet is so light in comparison.
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PAUL SOUZA
Trad climber
Central Valley, CA
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Aug 29, 2013 - 03:08pm PT
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Perhaps he just forgot it...
I have
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jeg
Social climber
center valley,Pa
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Aug 29, 2013 - 04:50pm PT
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Crankster....He only text my husband to tell him that he climbed 5.5 direct etc of Clyde and it was scary, he never mentioned loose rock. They only text back and forth after we left. They never had a conversation.
We found his Yarts bus schedule which was very worn. Obviously he used it in prior days but didn't have it with him on the 17th. So that led us to believe he didn't go to Toulomne?????
We doubt he would do Dana twice, it's not like him to repeat climbs.
I asked my husband "Would Matt climb easy 5 class rock without a helmet? ' This was his response...Possibly. But the decision to wear the helmet would be more a function of the nature of the terrain he planned to visit, the potential for rock or ice fall, the potential of other people climbing above, etc. He might wear a helmet on a less technical climb with poor rock quality and choose not wear a helmet on a harder climb with clean rock. From what I saw in the Minarets, there aren't too many places I would be comfortable without a helmet. That's one of the things that's never made sense to me with this whole thing; why he wouldn't have a helmet in that area.
Mt. Lyell pages are in his book untouched.
Just spoke to Norco car place...They would have placed his car outside in lot during the night. So Matt would have had full access to it 24/7.
He would have never needed his second tool after we left(only climbed steep technical ice with John)He just started climbing steep technical ice in the last couple years, still did not lead it. Can't recall if the second tool was in car or tent but I think irrevelant due to the fact he could of put the other tool in the car at any time. When we were with him, he was in the habit of storing stuff in his car instead of the tent. He was worried about theft.
Anyone know anything about Blue Couloir? High Traverse/cragman thinks its worth checking???
From what i observed from matt if he needed a helmet for a climb and forgot it. he wouldn't do the climb!!! I don't see him forgetting his helmet.
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jeg
Social climber
center valley,Pa
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Aug 29, 2013 - 05:03pm PT
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Just spoke with SAR, he confirmed that his second tool was at the campsite.
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LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
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Aug 29, 2013 - 05:48pm PT
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Tiffany said
we are also assuming he took his gear with an objective in mind - maybe the 'objective' was so that it was not stolen. the stuff is expensive right? the crampons were not his.
Jill said:
Just spoke with SAR, he confirmed that his second tool was at the campsite.
Thanks, Jill! I think we can rule out a scenario in which (say) Matt went for a run and stashed the items for safe-keeping. We can also rule out the faint possibility that the missing items were stolen from his campsite or from the campground storage.
I am left thinking that he intended to take that gear, for some objective. Tiffany went on:
no helmet (matt does not forget, he is borderline OCD)= no epic climb
no mention of it the night before while texting = no epic climb
solo = no epic climb
day trip = no epic climb
car is going to be ready tomorrow and he is planning leaving early and driving a huge distance = no epic climb
Jill also said:
I asked my husband "Would Matt climb easy 5 class rock without a helmet? ' This was his response...Possibly. But the decision to wear the helmet would be more a function of the nature of the terrain he planned to visit, the potential for rock or ice fall, the potential of other people climbing above, etc. He might wear a helmet on a less technical climb with poor rock quality and choose not wear a helmet on a harder climb with clean rock. From what I saw in the Minarets, there aren't too many places I would be comfortable without a helmet. That's one of the things that's never made sense to me with this whole thing; why he wouldn't have a helmet in that area.
From these quotes I get the impression that Matt would have probably brought a helmet if he had intended to do 5th class rock in areas with the potential of falling rock or whatever. (Climbers can interpret John's statement better than I.) It sounds unlikely that Matt would have forgotten his helmet, and if for some reason he had done so, that he would have modified his objective. I also wonder if he would have been more cautious about what he was climbing without a helmet if he was climbing alone.
Also, from Tiffany's comments, it sounds as if Matt was in the habit of telling people if he had an epic climb planned.
Though this may not narrow things down a lot -- Matt might still have ranged beyond Ron's 10-mile perimeter, especially if he had a ride -- it does imply that certain epic days and dangerous climbs are less likely.
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crankster
Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
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Aug 29, 2013 - 07:20pm PT
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^^^
I agree. Every scenario has some of part of it that doesn't make sense.
Jill and John were his climbing partners, so hard to disagree with any of their observations and conclusions. So frustrating.
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kenish
Gym climber
Orange County, CA
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Aug 29, 2013 - 08:26pm PT
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Any possibility Matt had another helmet? If the helmet recovered with the car is the blue one in the photos, but has a broken part or is just plain old, he may have bought a new one (but it should show up in his CC record). If something broke (as minor as a bad strap or pad) he may have used an older backup helmet or rented one. If he forgot his, maybe he borrowed one. Anything in a pinch.
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Kalimon
Social climber
Ridgway, CO
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Aug 29, 2013 - 08:57pm PT
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No offense folks, but this thread is bizarre.
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jeg
Social climber
center valley,Pa
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Aug 29, 2013 - 09:03pm PT
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Kalimon....Than don't read it and PLEASE don't post on it
Kenish...Yes, that is the one he used with us. We also checked CC statement and there weren't any Mammoth mountaineering charges.
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SplitPants
Social climber
LA
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Aug 29, 2013 - 09:18pm PT
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Jeg +100
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Maestra
Social climber
Philadelphia, PA
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Aug 29, 2013 - 09:46pm PT
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Big up all of you searching on land and those searching with hearts and head. What ever happened with searching history on computers at the library? I know library erases searches overnight, but is anyone willing to check on that data? Lots of time has passed, but that seems like it would give us a real window into where Matt was that evening, some ideas in his head for the next day, etc. What would it take to get that kind of search done? I am not an IT person, anyone, anyone?
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SplitPants
Social climber
LA
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Aug 29, 2013 - 09:57pm PT
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Maestra
It would take a search warrant (which only law enforcement with a judges approval) can execute. Next it would also require a law enforcement IT person/team (which I don't think is available) and finally there are 20 computers in the library.
This has already been asked. Also a lot of time has passed.
Thanks for asking though.
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SplitPants
Social climber
LA
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Aug 30, 2013 - 12:52am PT
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Kellydosentclimb
Thanks I will add this to our docs/stuff.
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ß Î Ø T Ç H
Boulder climber
extraordinaire
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Aug 30, 2013 - 01:31am PT
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Matt was hitting up very established stuff from the guidebooks/ internet, and this was his hoped last day here, cuz his car was nearly fixed(?) BTW: Norco has a bad reputation for locals, or former customers - the last place you'd take your car (but I digress). Looking at the list of all the climbs he did on this trip (he's on mainstream summits etc seen in print and internet). Seems to me that Ritter would be the one he most wanted to finally tick.
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lazydays
climber
Nazareth, PA
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Aug 30, 2013 - 10:25am PT
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Matt was hitting up very established stuff from the guidebooks/ internet, and this was his hoped last day here, cuz his car was nearly fixed
I've been following thread, but first time jumping in. No expert by any means of anything that has to do with hiking/climbing. Not at all familiar with the area. But, something just kind of struck me. There does seem to be a lot of evidence that Matt may have wanted to do Ritter/Banner and that fits with missing pages from guide book, etc. And it is assumed he was saving the best for last BUT didn't I read on here that Matt was told his car would be ready several times and wasn't? So, let's say he thought his car would have been ready days earlier (because he was told that repeatedly), hypothetically on the 14th (just picking a random date - I don't know how many times his car was promised or dates, maybe someone else knows this?) Wouldn't he have planned and done that saving the best for last moment before the 14th? If his car was promised earlier, he wouldn't have anticipated still being there on the 17th. Just seems if he really wanted to do this, it would have been done earlier than the 17th because I don't think he believed he would still be there on the 17th earlier in the month.
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LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
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Aug 30, 2013 - 11:03am PT
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Lazydays, I think that's a good point. Here's an edited version of the timeline that SplitPants posted upthread -- I've bolded some things:
July 11th (Thursday)
Log does not show any voice or text messages
Took the shuttle and climbed Clyde Minaret (confirmed) -solo
[TeddyKGBee/Tom] Later confirmed it was 7/11 that Matt took the shuttle.
This same day he talked to a local maintenance worker at Devils Postpile NM (via shuttle ride) about Ritter, banner, and the cross country hike between Ediza, Iceberg, Cecile, and Minaret Lake. ((emphasis added -- LAhiker))
July 12th (Friday)
Mammoth Crest (solo)
7/12 8:10 PM ET / 5:10 PM PT 2 Peak -- (repair shop)
7/12 8:13 PM ET / 5:13 PM PT 1 Peak -- (repair shop)
Credit card charge for Rite-Aid in the amount of $15.19
July 13th (Saturday)
Unicorn Peak (solo)
7/13 7:15 PM ET / 4:15 PM PT Text Sent
7/13 7:21 PM ET / 4:21 PM PT Text Received
7/13 7:41 PM ET / 4:41 PM PT Text Sent
Credit card charge for Vons in the amount of $39.22
July 14th (Sunday)
Hiking/climbing/rest activity is unknown for this day per Jill
7/14 5:13 PM ET / 2:13 PM PT Text Received
7/14 5:24 PM ET / 2:24 PM PT Text Sent
7/14 5:50 PM ET / 2:50 PM PT Text Received
7/14 11:03 PM ET / 8:03 PM PT 1 Off-Peak -- (voicemail)
July 15th (Monday)
Was seen on Yarts bus going to Toulomne to climb some domes??? per Jill [unconfirmed]
7/15 8:04 AM ET / 5:04 AM PT 2 Off-Peak
7/15 9:01 AM ET / 6:01 AM PT 2 Peak
7/15 3:21 PM ET / 12:21 PM PT Text Received
7/15 7:44 PM ET / 4:44 PM PT Text Sent
7/15 7:46 PM ET / 4:46 PM PT 1 Peak -- (voicemail)
7/15 8:49 PM ET / 5:49 PM PT 2 Peak
7/15 9:34 PM ET / 6:34 PM PT 1 Peak -- (voicemail)
7/15 9:35 PM ET / 6:35 PM PT 7 Peak
7/15 9:46 PM ET / 6:46 PM PT 1 Peak -- (voicemail)
7/15 10:34 PM ET / 7:34 PM PT Text Received
7/15 10:36 PM ET / 7:36 PM PT Text Sent
7/15 10:38 PM ET / 7:38 PM PT Text Received
July 16th (Tuesday) summary: he spent the day in town -- lots of texting
So we don't know what he did on the 14th or 15th, though he might have gone to Tuolomne on the 15th. Matt didn't sign registers at Banner or Ritter, so as people have been saying, he might have attempted those peaks. Cragman and colleagues, and Mattyj, have done searches in that area.
But I'm also wondering about the "cross-country hike between Ediza, Iceberg, Cecile, and Minaret Lake." I know that some of that area was searched by Chris Zavecz and Frank Martin during their trip to the area on August 10th through 15th, and that other people in that search team may also have searched some of those areas.
I'm just wondering -- how big is that cross-country hike? Does any of it involve snow, such that Matt would take his ice-axe, crampons, and Sportivas? If he hadn't done it already, could he have started out on that on the 17th? Forgive me if this has already been discussed and I missed it.
(Another possibility -- he saw something interesting in the Mammoth Crest area on the 12th and went back...)
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lazydays
climber
Nazareth, PA
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Aug 30, 2013 - 11:38am PT
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Thanks LAhiker. Speculating here - I went up thread and read the details and maintenance worker conversation. On 7/11, according to that conversation, Matt hadn't decided what he would do that day. I'm assuming any one of those areas would have been a big/epic climb/hike (pardon my ignorance here). He chose Clyde. As per text with friend, as I recall, Clyde was fun, but scary. Next day he calls shop twice after Mammoth Crest. (Is Mammoth Crest particularly challenging or more on the easy side?) It almost seems to me that 7/11 would have been the saving best for last day because he may have thought his car would be ready at end of business day on the 12th (based on calls to them). So, if Mammoth Crest is on the easier side, maybe he just planned to do something easier, closer, as to be readily available when his car was. It almost seems that maybe the 17th would have been that way. He took limited equipment, but enough to cover any snowy/icy spots, no helmet, which would be unusual for him. I don't know what areas that leaves, but maybe it's an indication that he decided to rule out ritter/banner? But, then again, maybe not. Just seems odd that if he thought he would be out of there by the 17th, why wouldn't he have done it already?
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Mtnmun
Trad climber
Top of the Mountain Mun
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Aug 30, 2013 - 11:47am PT
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I contacted a well known Medium who I truly believe in as I have seen him at work. This is harsh and I know it may disturb many of you but this is what he says happened.
"Mathew was mauled by a large animal who dragged his body off of a pathway and into a ravine-esq area. It has been picked over by other predators. As to where I can't pinpoint it but he actually appears to have bled to death. Fortunately he appears to have gone into immediate shock after the attack followed by unconsciousness."
In my opinion, looking off of wooded trails rather than the high peaks could produce results.
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LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
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Aug 30, 2013 - 11:57am PT
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@Lazydays,
I don't know. Maybe Jill or Ron/Tiffany know more about what the repair shop said. I think they told him on the 16th that it would be done on the 18th, so maybe they'd said it would be done on the 15th or 16th and then extended it?
Now that I come to think about it more closely, I do think that if he had strongly believed that his car would be done on the 12th, he might not have have talked about Ritter, Banner, and the cross-country hike when speaking with the maintenance worker. Though who knows -- the repair shop kept putting him off.
I also think that based on what Tiffany said, if he'd planned an epic climb for the 14th or 15th, he would have mentioned it to someone. And if he'd done something he really wanted to do, such as Ritter or Banner, wouldn't he have mentioned that? But then, it appears that he didn't mention any such epic climb for the 17th, either.
I still think you're right that because he kept thinking the car would be ready, he may have done many of the big things he wanted to do there. And the converse may hold -- he might not have felt 100% sure that the car would indeed be ready on the 18th. So though he may have deliberately done something non-epic before his hoped-for departure for Colorado on the 18th, he still may not have regarded the 17th as a clearly-defined "last day in town."
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Aug 30, 2013 - 11:58am PT
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But I'm also wondering about the "cross-country hike between Ediza, Iceberg, Cecile, and Minaret Lake." I'm just wondering -- how big is that cross-country hike? Does any of it involve snow, such that Matt would take his ice-axe, crampons, and Sportivas? If he hadn't done it already, could he have started out on that on the 17th? Forgive me if this has already been discussed and I missed it. There are 2 considerably different "cross country" "hikes".
I'll start from the southern end at Minaret Lake.
There's short class 2 "cliff" to climb at the N end of Minaret Lake. It is commonly crossed by backpackers and climbers with loads. At the top of the short "cliff" you come to Cecile Lake which is directly below the east prow of Clyde Minaret and also directly below South Notch.
This bit of cross country hiking is traveled frequently, especially by climbers.
I'm pretty sure Matt is not between Minaret and Cecile lakes, he'd have been found by now.
Note that Cecile Lake is the usual approach to South Notch and to the "back side" of the southern Minarest, also the 5.8 rock route on the SE side of Clyde. It is frequently used as a camp/bivvy site.
From Cecile Lake things get interesting.
The "standard" cross country trail is in fact a well traveled track. It's rough but never dangerous. It goes from the north side of Cecile Lake down to Iceberg Lake and then Ediza. This trail isn't on the maps but might as well be.
so far, no need for mountain boots, axe or crampons in late July.
The high route (definitely NOT a trail), dangerous in several places, from Cecile Lake to Ritter/Banner (you wouldn't take it to Ediza) goes up steeply on scree and rock to the base of the Clyde glacier.
Then depending on snow/ice conditions follows the top of a steep and rugged cliff band (above Iceberg Lake) across to the SE Glacier on Ritter (passing above the steep cliffs above Iceberg and Ediza). In mid July there would be some patches of snow between the toe of the glacier and the cliff tops.
This could NOT ever be called a trail. Every time across it requires a different route across barren rock, ledges covered with loose rock, icy gullies and heaps of talus. A slip or fall in the wrong place could be disastrous.
Cragman has twice traveled from Ritter SE Glacier south (towards Cecile Lake) across the northern section of this route. His second trip brought them to the deepest of the two big gullies. Directly below Eichorn Minaret. See his trip reports.
This route must be traveled to get to any of the Minarets' east faces from either Cecile Lake or Ritter. Matt certainly traveled it to get to the base of the 5.5 variation to the Rock Route on the NE face of Clyde.
Whether he came from Cecile Lake or Ritter is unknowable.
I don't believe the southern section from Cecile to the deep gully has been searched.
This route is definitely dangerous, especially AFTER the snow has cleared (which it certainly had by 17 July) and the loose rock and talus are exposed.
I've used the "high" route from Cecile to Ritter in spring snow conditions. We really didn't want to recross it so after a lot of discussion we returned the long way, down to Ediza and back to Cecile via Iceberg Lake.
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kenish
Gym climber
Orange County, CA
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Aug 30, 2013 - 12:04pm PT
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Matt's somewhat sparse credit card activity suggests he usually paid cash for everyday needs. I assume Matt's family looked at his bank account(s)...debit card, ATM activity, deposits/withdrawals, etc.? What were his personal banking habits in the weeks before Mammoth? Did the pattern change or were there unusual amounts in or out of any accounts...including secondary or dormant accounts most people have? It might suggest or rule out an unexpected problem he was handling, as well as foul play. Was he the type to carry large amounts of cash? Would he be likely to pay the big car repair bill by credit, debit, or cash?
Sorry if this has been done...I only recall discussion of CC activity.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Aug 30, 2013 - 12:10pm PT
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kenish
all that's been covered. Some facts and clues have been gleaned.
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lazydays
climber
Nazareth, PA
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Aug 30, 2013 - 12:12pm PT
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Now that I come to think about it more closely, I do think that if he had strongly believed that his car would be done on the 12th, he might not have have talked about Ritter, Banner, and the cross-country hike when speaking with the maintenance worker. Though who knows -- the repair shop kept putting him off.
According to the conversation, they talked about Clyde as well and that he didn't have a definitive plan for the day but we know he ultimately chose Clyde. Almost like that would have been the epic day.
But, then again - since he was obviously there longer than anticipated, Ritter/Banner could have and probably did cross his mind again.
Just thinking out loud... And sincerely hoping that he is found.
It is really amazing how everyone has come together to try to help find Matt. It restores faith in humanity. You are all a tremendously awesome bunch of people. A lof of hearts hurting in and around the school district. You have all given Nazareth a reason to hope. Thank you all.
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Mtnmun
Trad climber
Top of the Mountain Mun
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Aug 30, 2013 - 12:24pm PT
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Not true Timid Rope. A psychic found a missing girl who was murdered off of hwy 17 in Santa Cruz several years back. I contacted Tom Browns Tracker School Today to see if his team can get involved.
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LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
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Aug 30, 2013 - 12:43pm PT
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Timid, Mtnmun, and Paul,
Could you please knock it off or take your argument private?
We all want to find Matt; we each have our own methods and bring something to this forum. I personally think that both logic and psychic intuitions can play a role, along with interviewing people ("humint"), other aspects of detective work, aerial photography, and the brave and difficult work of searching done by Cragman, Mattyj, Matt's climbing friends, and others.
While I understand that each of you feels that your methods are crucial, they are not mutually exclusive. Debating something that cannot be resolved, however, takes the thread off-track.
It takes a village to find a man. Let's have peace in the village, and focus on finding Matt.
Thanks!
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kenish
Gym climber
Orange County, CA
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Aug 30, 2013 - 12:45pm PT
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@Timid- I don't want to turn this into a tangential debate..there are credible people out there with a history of finding clues and missing people. But there are far more quacks, whackos, and con artists. Here in SoCal a kid went missing about 50 miles from here and a woman in my city was instrumental in finding him (unfortunately killed by his half brother). The police chief said she was instrumental after they had given up...she led them to a spot which had been combed several times. The woman came forward voluntarily and doesn't call herself a psychic. She feels she simply has deeper intuition into the facts reported on the news.
Bottom line, there are people out there whose leads shouldn't be dismissed offhand. Vetting their credibility is a problem.
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mattyj
Mountain climber
Truckee
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Aug 30, 2013 - 12:47pm PT
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TTR, I agree with you 100%, and as someone who's gone in and looked for Matt and is thinking of doing so again in Sept, those posts make it that much harder to keep up with what I think the relevant info is. Obviously they can't all be right as we now have a difference of psychic opinions.
I know you were responding to mtnmun and I have no idea what his/her relation to the Greenes is, but I hope you also realize that most of the psychic-related posts on this thread come directly from Matt's family. I certainly think they have the right to pursue whatever avenues they want in their search for Matt.
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Supermama
Social climber
pa
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Aug 30, 2013 - 02:37pm PT
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Hi all,
I am sending Split Pants a list of all possible people who had contact with Matt prior to his disappearance who mentioned it on Facebook along with their links. I am also sending a few names of people who are climbers and have volunteered to help. Please let me know if there is anything else I can do.
Tonight we are having our first football game. The entire school and staff are wearing green to support all of the efforts to find Matt and to bring him home safely.
Thank you for all that you are doing. Be safe.
Supermama
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Supermama
Social climber
pa
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Aug 30, 2013 - 04:19pm PT
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I can do that....:)
Supermama
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WBraun
climber
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Aug 30, 2013 - 08:37pm PT
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Timid TopRope -- " ... you will find that mediums /psychics have NEVER, I repeat, NEVER found a missing person or body."
Timid TopRope, not very intelligent statement.
They have pretty accurately described the location of missing person bodies at times.
unfortunately searchers have misinterpreted their descriptions at times.
But once subject had been found the location description proved accurate.
I have actual real world experience with this .....
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
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Aug 30, 2013 - 08:42pm PT
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Aug 24, 2013 - 02:25pm PT
Officer Hugelman requested that I send him the images I took upon discovering the glasses- here is a copy of the email I just sent him:
"
Hello- I was the individual who found what many believe are the potential glasses belonging to missing person, Matthew Greene. I've attached the photos I took upon discovery, as requested.
I would like to direct you, as well as Detective Hornbeck to a page in the SuperTopo Climbing forum- here you can find Matt's prescription details, and perhaps see if the glasses I found are similar or match.
Here is a copy/paste of the post from Ron, Matt's brother in law:
Aug 24, 2013 - 06:57am PT
Here's Matt's eye RXs from 2-1-13
Glasses:
OD - 2.75 - 0.75 x 175
OS - 2.75 - 1.00 x 005
Contacts:
OD - 8.6 / 14.5 - 2.50 - 0.75 x 180
OS - 8.6 / 14.5 - 2.50 - 1.25 x 180
Acuvue Oasys for Astigmatism
Hope that means something; my eyes are good so it's Greek to me.
Let me know if there is anything else you need from me.
Thanks,
Alex Xxxxxx
xxx-xxx-xxxx
"
Essentially I've relayed Matt's Rx info, hoping to expedite that process. We'll see what comes of it.
@Cragman, thanks, I'm interested to know.
Alex (x1n54n3x),
Just wondering. Did you give officer Hugelman of the MLPD original copies of all the in-camera images you took of the glasses with all the in-camera metadata along with them? Thanks.
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SplitPants
Social climber
LA
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Aug 30, 2013 - 09:06pm PT
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WBraun
Tiffany (tdg119) created a thread more suited for encompassing this kind of discussion. Mammoth topography in regards to Visions (FindMattGreene)
Lets keep this thread on evidence that can be physically confirmed and verified; Conjectures based on physical evidence; and the consideration of SAR attempts and reports.
I'm not discounting anything.. I just want to help make it easier to find stuff of a certain category.
Thanks
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lazydays
climber
Nazareth, PA
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Aug 30, 2013 - 09:08pm PT
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@ Kelly and Split Pants
Not sure if you had this info for map/documentation. This is from an email I rec'd from someone who was in the area after Matt's disappearance:
I am aware of Matt's disappearance, although I learned of it only
after my return from the Minarets area (July 30-Aug 2). I climbed two
of the Minarets (Pridham and Starr), but his name was not in the
register on Pridham, and there was no register on Starr. I did not see
anything unusual during my wandering in the area that would shed light
on Matt's whereabouts.
Was just looking at the map Kelly made and didn't see any notations on Pridham. Matt wasn't searched for in the area, but his name was not seen in register.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
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Aug 30, 2013 - 10:02pm PT
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https://www.google.com/maps/ms?msid=201100958982639302825.0004e4b67d382d4f35fd4&msa=0&ll=37.548933,-118.322754&spn=2.364716,5.410767&iwloc=0004e50ae34c9f274c26d
Reading Glasses Found
Last Updated by Kelly Castleberry 2 days ago
THEY ARE NOT MATT'S
The eyeglasses were found at this exact location. They were sitting on the trailhead post; this is the trailhead to the second (northern) Inyo Crater.
I would disagree with this statement. It really should be stated that the reading glasses can't proved to be Matt's. Can't be disproved either. That is a dead-end as the officer described it.
Several people who are near-sighted have stepped forward to admit that they use reading glasses over their contacts so they don't have to take out their contacts to see close-up. Is it possible that Matt did this also?
The reading eye-glasses make and model are known. They aren't available any more as far as I can tell. Someone had them that likes to hold onto things for a long time and get full use out of them. Seems to be Matt's habit. Just look at his older cell phone and lack of personal pc etc. Admirable traits in my opinion. I'm kinda like that.
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SplitPants
Social climber
LA
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Aug 30, 2013 - 10:09pm PT
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Lazydays
Thanks for the information. Can you please PM me so I can reply and then you can forward the email to me? I am a tad hesitant to update something as searched or checked without knowing the source of he information.
Thanks so much for your help it is really appreciated:)
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monolith
climber
SF bay area
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Aug 30, 2013 - 10:15pm PT
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The glasses were at a trail head used by many people. They were reading glasses, exactly what one would expect people to use while checking out material like maps at a trail head. The simplest explanation is someone lost them at the trail head which would include a lot of people besides Matt. If you hear hoofbeats in North America, think horses, although there is a possibility they could be zebras, because they have been brought and raised here.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
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Aug 30, 2013 - 10:24pm PT
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Like I said, its a dead-end as the officer described it, but it isn't an absolute "NO THEY ARE NOT MATT'S GLASSES."
It is very uncertain.
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lazydays
climber
Nazareth, PA
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Aug 30, 2013 - 10:28pm PT
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Can you please PM me
Just sent email SplitPants w/forwarded email. (Had your email when we talked about the website earlier this week).
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Supermama
Social climber
pa
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Aug 30, 2013 - 10:58pm PT
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Nazareth Blue Eagles fans turned out to the first football game of the season in green, in memory of missing teaching Matthew Greene. The community wants to thank all who are helping to find Matt. We just want him to come home.
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Charlie D.
Trad climber
Western Slope, Tahoe Sierra
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Aug 30, 2013 - 11:03pm PT
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lazydays and supermama, thanks for sharing this small piece of a communities voice. Matt obviously is one of those gifted individuals who everyday made a difference in someones life. Best to you and all for giving me who has followed this epic the chance to have him touch my heart as well.
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SplitPants
Social climber
LA
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Aug 30, 2013 - 11:12pm PT
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Super mama and lazy days thanks for sharing!!
Charlie D
Ditto! +10
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Supermama
Social climber
pa
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Aug 30, 2013 - 11:20pm PT
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Hi all,
I just found the conversation below on Mountain Project Forum: Here is the link: http://www.mountainproject.com/v/yosemite-area-partner-july-1-9/108170299
He calls himself the brass monkey if it is him. See what you think.
"Im driving out west from PA for 2 months of climbing this summer and I'll be in or around Yosemite from June 22-July 14 and my partner from the July 1-9 just bailed on me due to work issues. Why cant everyone be a teacher, right?
So I'll be looking for partners from the 1-9. I'll have a car, rack, ropes, ledge, and some aid gear with me. I'm game to go anywhere within a 3-4 hour drive from Yosemite during that time. Needles, High Sierras, Valley, Tuolumne.
PM me and we can chat about more specifics and what not and see if we can work something out. I know there are some great climbers out there looking for partners from time to time, but I'm also not looking for the "I've never climbed aid or trad before but I'm a fast learner!" guy, sorry, I'm sure you are a fast learner, but...yeah, I'm sure you understand :).
Hit me up and let me know; if you are just in the area and see a silver Subaru wrx wagon with PA plates feel free to harass me! "
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LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
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Aug 30, 2013 - 11:35pm PT
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Supermama, thanks for looking into this.
While that initial post sounds like it could be Matt, if you click on his profile, it turns out that brassmonkey is still posting!
Also, Matt had climbing partners for early July -- Jill and John. Brassmonke posts his phone number in another post -- a reverse phone lookup says it's a Dover, PA, number.
It's a weird coincidence, but this must be another PA teacher with a Subaru who climbs.
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lazydays
climber
Nazareth, PA
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Aug 30, 2013 - 11:37pm PT
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lazydays and supermama, thanks for sharing this small piece of a communities voice. Matt obviously is one of those gifted individuals who everyday made a difference in someones life. Best to you and all for giving me who has followed this epic the chance to have him touch my heart as well.
Charlie D, that was really sweet. I know so many I have talked to really appreciate all that is being done from and on the west coast to try to help find Matt. And as you can see from the video and pics, "Mr. Greene" was respected and loved by his students. He is missed by people of all ages.
Great pics Supermama!
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LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
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Aug 30, 2013 - 11:46pm PT
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HighTraverse,
Thanks for your explanation that the "cross-country hike between Ediza, Iceberg, Cecile, and Minaret Lake," which Matt mentioned to a maintenance guy on July 11t, could actually refer to two hikes, both going by Minaret Lake but then diverging into a much safer "standard route" and a much more dangerous "high route."
You also made the point that if he had had an accident between Minaret and Cecile Lakes he probably would've been found by now because that part is more well-traveled.
Regarding the high route vs. the standard route, it sounds like the confusing thing about the possibility that Matt attempted this hike on the 17th is that if he had done the standard route, he wouldn't have needed the ice axe and crampons.
On the the other hand, the "high route" sounds so dangerous (especially with all those waterfalls coming down from the glaciers that Cragman and Cupcake saw) that (based on what Jill and Tiffany have said) it might have been out of character for Matt to attempt it alone. This seems especially unlikely because he probably thought he was finally going to be able to retrieve the car and drive to Colorado the next day.
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Supermama
Social climber
pa
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Aug 30, 2013 - 11:51pm PT
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LA Hiker...Sorry about that...false alarm....what a coincidence! I am still learning how to navigate all of the sites.
Lazydays...thanks! Were you there?
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
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Aug 30, 2013 - 11:56pm PT
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Aug 30, 2013 - 05:42pm PT
Aug 24, 2013 - 02:25pm PT
Officer Hugelman requested that I send him the images I took upon discovering the glasses- here is a copy of the email I just sent him:
"
Hello- I was the individual who found what many believe are the potential glasses belonging to missing person, Matthew Greene. I've attached the photos I took upon discovery, as requested.
I would like to direct you, as well as Detective Hornbeck to a page in the SuperTopo Climbing forum- here you can find Matt's prescription details, and perhaps see if the glasses I found are similar or match.
Here is a copy/paste of the post from Ron, Matt's brother in law:
Aug 24, 2013 - 06:57am PT
Here's Matt's eye RXs from 2-1-13
Glasses:
OD - 2.75 - 0.75 x 175
OS - 2.75 - 1.00 x 005
Contacts:
OD - 8.6 / 14.5 - 2.50 - 0.75 x 180
OS - 8.6 / 14.5 - 2.50 - 1.25 x 180
Acuvue Oasys for Astigmatism
Hope that means something; my eyes are good so it's Greek to me.
Let me know if there is anything else you need from me.
Thanks,
Alex Xxxxxx
xxx-xxx-xxxx
"
Essentially I've relayed Matt's Rx info, hoping to expedite that process. We'll see what comes of it.
@Cragman, thanks, I'm interested to know.
Alex (x1n54n3x),
Just wondering. Did you give officer Hugelman of the MLPD original copies of all the in-camera images you took of the glasses with all the in-camera metadata along with them? Thanks.
Officer Dan Watson (MLPD),
Is it possible can you confirm whether or not Alex (x1n54n3x) provided you with original copies of all the in-camera images he took of the reading glasses with all the in-camera metadata along with those images? Thanks.
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SplitPants
Social climber
LA
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Aug 30, 2013 - 11:57pm PT
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Super mama
Great catch.....love your attention to detail.
LAhiker
Valid point......however......what if this guy just happened to connect with Matt? We do know:
1. Matt often sought partners on that forum
2. Per his family all phone numbers on his phone bill are PA except car repair center. Perhaps there is a PA number on his cell bill that might match this guy?
3. We don't have access to Matt's email accounts so we don't know if they corresponded
Let me sit and think on this tonight. Please don't contact this person yet. I have my reasons for holding off.......if we decide to make contact with him it needs to be done in a proper manner so as not to jeopardize a potential lead.
Hang tight.....:)
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SplitPants
Social climber
LA
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Aug 31, 2013 - 12:18am PT
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Supermama,
I am way behind in my emails:(((( I hope to get caught up tomorrow morning.
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SplitPants
Social climber
LA
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Aug 31, 2013 - 12:24am PT
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All/Supermama/LAHiker etc....
Concerning the post on mountainproject. It is not possible that it is Matt (the account is active).
However, we need to rule out that Matt did not see his post and send him a PM. We don't know Matt's habits about partnering up. Would he reply in the forum or would he send a PM?
I don't want to scare the person away in case he did have contact with Matt. It is possible Matt PM'd him and he may not want to talk to anyone. Meaning if we contact him and he did have communications with Matt, well he could decide to delete his account and then...........well we would need a warrant to find out who he is.
I want to turn this information over to the family and the detective. I honestly think it is a long shot this person talked to Matt.........but just in case he did I want to make sure things are handled in the proper manner.
I will send an email to the family and detective before I go to bed.
Thanks again for everyone's help:) Keep up the great work and keep the faith:))))))))
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Supermama
Social climber
pa
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Aug 31, 2013 - 12:24am PT
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Split Pants...no worries...just want to make sure it went through. I'll check in tomorrow.
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LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
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Aug 31, 2013 - 12:28am PT
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Supermama,
Thanks for your question. I'm not a climber, but several of those items seem to be intended for a different kind of climbing than the type I think Matt did. For instance, there's a ledge that's used when climbing big walls like the ones at Yosemite.
Others can chime in, but I don't see any smoking guns such as an ice axe, crampons, etc.
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LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
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Aug 31, 2013 - 12:39am PT
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Two things that might help narrow down this search (not new, but I want to emphasize them):
Matt’s hotmail account – I’m one of those who think that this might contain useful info, whether about Matt’s plans for July 17th or about what he did on the 14th or 15th.
Tiffany and Ron discussed here earlier how they tried to get access to the account. Apparently Matt had changed the password, and when Tiffany and Ron tried to change the password, Hotmail kept rejecting the correct answer to a simple security question, perhaps because of caps or something; it probably would reject anything if there were a certain number of incorrect tries.
I remember there was one other method short of getting a search warrant or subpoena. On the bottom of the screen with the security questions, there was a box that said something like “these options don’t work for me.” The screen said you could fill out a questionnaire and that you might gain access to the account in 24 hours. I assume this was tried but just wanted to double check.
If that doesn’t work, I hope a search warrant or subpoena can be gotten...
People who had contact with Matt: Supermama has sent Split Pants the names of some people who posted on Facebook that they spoke with Matt in the days before July 17th. Thanks, Supermama! I think a woman and her son spoke with him at the library about a climbing book, and there may have been others. I think someone (Todd Quinn, maybe?) was talking with them. I hope someone can follow up with these people soon.
Just as the conversation with the maintenance worker on July 11 told us that Matt was thinking about doing Banner, Ritter, and the cross-country hike I mentioned earlier (in addition to Clyde Minaret, which he did later in the day on the 11th), these conversations might give us some insight to where he went on the 14th, 15th, and of course on the 17th.
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SplitPants
Social climber
LA
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Aug 31, 2013 - 12:50am PT
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LAHiker
You are correct concerning the emails. We are "working on it." Thanks for your help.
All,
I am going silent tomorrow so I can finish organizing this stuff and turning it over so it is just updates of new leads etc....If I missed your email I promise to get to it tomorrow:)
When it comes down to it I agree with Cragman/Dean...........Ritter.
The mountains are so vast as we have seen in his stunning pictures.....it is a big, beautiful and dangerous place.
Nite.............
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fluffy
Trad climber
Colorado
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Aug 31, 2013 - 01:36am PT
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Out of any and all the mistakes Greene may have made, Rosnau said his biggest one was not telling anyone where he was going that day. A mistake Rosnau said he used to make all the time.
“It may not have saved his life, but it would have given his family closure,” Rosnau, a father himself, said. “My sole intent on finding Matthew was to help the family find peace. As I told them, you hope with every tragedy that something good can come from it. Perhaps the good from this could be the affect Matthew’s story has on others. Maybe they’ll think twice.”
thanks Dean. I know I will.
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Todd Quinn
Trad climber
Oceanside, CA
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Aug 31, 2013 - 02:46am PT
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Bugs me not knowing where Matt started his hike. If he walked from his the camp site, Ritter would be too far for a day hike. Everyone assumed he got a ride to the trail. But no driver has come forward. I feel it is important to keep thinking Matt attended to finish a day hike no more.
That has me thinking outside the book and gear. Mammoth Crest Trail has been talked about more than once. Matt could have changed his mind after walking across town to get to the trail head for Ritter? I don't mean to speculate sorry. But Crystal Crag is a beautiful climbing wall. Matt's climb style is represented well there. Matt knew he was solo so maybe he left his helmet behind on purpose and made the decision not to climb but would rather study the wall for his return trip, next year?
We have a caring community here. Wonderful leadership don't ever give up! Seeing Matt's students celebrating his life by wearing green reminds us all he matters! Let's start organizing the next search by matching experience friends together to look for Matt. We can do this!!!
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Jeremy B.
climber
Northern California
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Aug 31, 2013 - 04:09am PT
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I think Cragman et al are on the right track with the Ritter/Banner hypothesis. Matt had been around the area and would have had a good idea of where crampons and axe would be needed. Going with the simplest interpretation of the evidence would suggest a destination with permanent snowfields, but nothing too vertical. Limiting the field to areas a reasonable hike from Agnew or Reds Meadows leaves Iron Mountain and the Ritter Range. Lack of helmet to me suggests Ritter/Banner or Iron Mt, but I am not really familiar with the area.
Now, looking back over the posts, I see TeddyKGBee mentioned that Iron Mountain was searched but other posts suggest it wasn't; the upper portions are marked on Kelly's map as not searched. From what I can tell this wouldn't have been a difficult hike for Matt, but might have worked if he wanted something lighter before his drive out. (He might have also done it on one of the unaccounted-for days.)
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Jim Clipper
climber
from: forests to tree farms
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Aug 31, 2013 - 11:10am PT
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Klimmer,
I Rx glasses for a living. Went to school for way too long. It makes no sense that Matthew would be wearing over the counter readers. He could take off his glasses, and he would essentially have vision that is equivalent to looking through the readers.
If people are making an effort searching the area where the glasses were found, purely on the basis of the glasses, they are likely off base. It would be more sense to look for someone over 45 or 50 who was hiking in the area who lost their glasses, and might have seen Matthew.
Best wishes all.
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SplitPants
Social climber
LA
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Aug 31, 2013 - 11:15am PT
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Jim Clipper +100
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SplitPants
Social climber
LA
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Aug 31, 2013 - 11:37am PT
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cragman/dean + MILLION [EDIT] ZILLION
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
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Aug 31, 2013 - 11:42am PT
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Aug 31, 2013 - 08:10am PT
Klimmer,
I Rx glasses for a living. Went to school for way too long. It makes no sense that Matthew would be wearing over the counter readers. He could take off his glasses, and he would essentially have vision that is equivalent to looking through the readers.
If people are making an effort searching the area where the glasses were found, purely on the basis of the glasses, they are likely off base. It would be more sense to look for someone over 45 or 50 who was hiking in the area who lost their glasses, and might have seen Matthew.
Best wishes all.
Jim Clipper,
With respect that is Not what I said or meant.
Others have mentioned already (who have actually climbed with him) that he would go from glasses to contacts to glasses during a climbing trip. Then they asked him why? He had to. The system worked for him for unstated reasons.
When he has his contacts in to help his nearsighted vision, so he can see distance, could he then use readers over his contacts to help him see up- close so he wouldn't have to take out his contacts? For convenience.
Several people have said that is exactly what they do. So therefore, is it possible that Matt would do this too at times? I think so.
There is far more to the glasses that I'm alluding to.
Where the images by Alex to the MLPD provided as original copies from the original digital camera with all the original attached metadata? Seems that should be an easy question to answer. Officer Dan or somebody, ... Alex what is the answer?
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SplitPants
Social climber
LA
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Aug 31, 2013 - 11:51am PT
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Klimmer
Thank you for your contributions to this thread. By chance have you read some of the most recent posts this morning? Just curious.
The purpose of my post is not to upset you, but we are trying to get this thread back on track and honestly the issue with the glasses I believe is resolved (via people who knew Matt, family and MLPD). Personally having read through every single post on this forum 3 times in the process of compiling information I honestly don't think Matt would have been at the craters IMHO
We need to focus our energy on other items in this thread. I don't want to offend you, but can we please drop the bit on the glasses (of course unless the family thinks otherwise)? I have captured the relevant points concerning the glasses in case we need to reference the information.
Again Klimmer, my intention is not to upset you, but just get this thread back on course. I hope you can understand that and not take offense to my comments. Tx
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crankster
Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
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Aug 31, 2013 - 11:51am PT
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Cragman feels the Ritter area is the most logical and has been willing to search there. I'd agree that Ritter is the highest probability area, too.
If a capable, experienced team has another idea, then head out and have a look. Taking all precautions, of course.
Matt's climbing partners, Jill & John, posted that Matt would not just forget his helmet if he was headed to a climb where it was possible he would need one.
From what i observed from matt if he needed a helmet for a climb and forgot it. he wouldn't do the climb!!! I don't see him forgetting his helmet.
Powerful opinion from someone who lived and climbed with Matt.
I'd be willing to get to the area to search. Hoping to uncover a clue to narrow an area to focus on. Cragman has done enough, it's time for others to look.
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SplitPants
Social climber
LA
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Aug 31, 2013 - 11:55am PT
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Crankster +10
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SplitPants
Social climber
LA
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Aug 31, 2013 - 12:18pm PT
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Cragman has done a lot:) He just needs to rest for a while so his body can heal:)
I think it is the Ritter area. I keep coming back to the needle in a haystack. It truly is a vast vast place. The fact that one could be so close to someone that has passed out there and not see them just boggles my mind when I think about it.....(sigh)
I envy those with the ability to go into such a beautiful place. People like me can only view the beauty through the trip reports, pictures or of course from the top of Mammoth Mountain (sigh).
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tdg119
Social climber
Northampton, PA
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Aug 31, 2013 - 12:34pm PT
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Hi everyone, we would like to ask that we all take a moment of silence and not post anything today in Matt's honor...log off, spend time with our family's and loved ones, reflect, get outside! enjoy the holiday and last few days of summer. This is what Matt would want.
Thank you everyone again for everything, Ron and Tiffany.
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PAUL SOUZA
Trad climber
Central Valley, CA
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Aug 31, 2013 - 03:30pm PT
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I wouldn't get too hung up on the helmet.
From what I've read about Matt, I feel that I identify well with him. As I mentioned previously, I too have forgotten my helmet on a few occasions. I am usually pretty anal about wearing one, especially if I'm leading or going into the High Sierra where rockfall is pretty much a usual occurrence. All of my friends know how much of a "safety Nazi" I am. However, if I was several miles in on an approach or at the start of the climb and have a short window of time to bang out one last objective, I would probably go for it despite the lack of a helmet.
Just imagine the day when they do find him and people wonder, "why didn't we find him sooner? This should have been so obvious!" "...remember the whole issue of the helmet? Well..."
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onyourleft
climber
Smog Angeles
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Aug 31, 2013 - 11:32pm PT
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Way back upthread, someone suggested that the road to Agnew Meadows be thoroughly checked. The suggestion was that Matt might have been the victim of a hit and run collision while walking the road from Minaret Summit to Agnew Meadows in the dark.
I rode my road bike from Mammoth to Reds Meadow and back today. I rode both directions very carefully and slowly, scanning the downhill slopes below the road cut. I saw no trace of Matt.
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Delhi Dog
climber
Good Question...
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Onyerleft!
Good job checking, I'd been wondering about that too since someone posted the possibility.
Thanks
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ß Î Ø T Ç H
Boulder climber
extraordinaire
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Foul play (is) a possible here ... Why bother foul playing a mountaineer, they are experts at it themselves.
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onyourleft
climber
Smog Angeles
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I stopped at the kiosk at Minaret Vista and spoke with the Rangers.
They have a picture of Matt on the outside of the kiosk and hand out a slip of paper with Matt's name on it with a number to call with any information. They stated they had no new news to share. I asked about various routes to the valley floor. If Matt had come this way on foot and had intended to climb in the Northern Ritter Range , they assured me that the shortest path to Agnew Meadows was indeed the paved road. If Matt's intended objective had been more southerly, like say the southern Minarets, then he might have taken the Starkweather foot trail which meets the paved road at Starkweather Lake.
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SplitPants
Social climber
LA
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onyourleft
First, thank you VERY much for taking the time to contribute in the search for Matt. It is much appreciated especially by Matt's family and his friends and all of us here on this thread. I also thank you for posting your search activity and results here on the forum. I have also captured this information behind the scenes in a place we use to document the activities.
If you have additional details of your search that you would like to communicate please feel free to send me a PM.
Again, thank you very much:)
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Supermama
Social climber
pa
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Onyourleft...
Thank you! I was one of the people who suggested the possibility of a hit-and-run since evidence indicated that he left in the dark. Thanks for looking!
Another thought that has been eating at me, and I apologize if this has already been discussed earlier, is the man who was arrested on Monday morning after Matt's disappearance. He had just been released from jail and was found with a gun, harassing people in the area. Was this man questioned about Matt?
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LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
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@Supermama, Good question. I don't know whether Johnny Pulido (I think his full name is Pulido-Gonzalez) was questioned about Matt, but I believe that Mammoth Lakes Police Chief Dan Watson posted on the "Find Matthew Greene" Facebook page that Pulido committed his alleged crimes and was arrested ~200 miles from Mammoth Lakes. (I hadn't heard anything about Pulido having been recently released from prison, however.)
ETA: I took Supermama to be saying that she'd heard Pulido had been released from prison just prior to his recent alleged crimes.
@Onyourleft -- thanks for searching the area next to that road!!!
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SplitPants
Social climber
LA
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Supermama/LAHiker
Chief Watson looked into this. I believe a while back he posted a response to this on the Facebook page. I can also tell you when I spoke to him on the phone last week he mentioned he did follow up with this item by calling the authorities for those two areas.
As a note both of the areas referenced are quite a distance south of Mammoth. The Pearsonville Shell (first major gas station past Mojave when enroute to Mammoth) is about 150 miles from Mammoth. It is not a good place to stop we usually try to avoid it if possible (something is just off about the place).
The second area mentioned in the articles Kennedy Meadows is over 200 miles from Mammoth.
So in effect I believe any association to this incident has been ruled out.
[EDIT] If you have additional questions please feel free to send me a PM
Thanks.
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kenish
Gym climber
Orange County, CA
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The last few posts above are correct on location. There are several "Kennedy Meadows" in the Sierras; an online search often leads to areas closer to Mammoth but not relevant to Matt.
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onyourleft
climber
Smog Angeles
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Has anyone considered further the possibility that Matt may have stayed closer to town?
For someone walking from Shady Rest, in the dark, in the middle of the night, the Minarets and the Ritter Range are quite the trek just to get to a trailhead.
Earlier in Matt's climbing tick list, he had climbed on Crystal Crag. He would have seen the Mammoth Crest from that airy summit, and nearly two months ago, there might have appeared enticing snow routes.
A pre-dawn start from Shady Rest, one could walk up Old Mammoth Road into the Lakes Basin to access several trailheads leading up to the "then" snow line. I know the obvious snow lines near Ritter and the Minarets have been admirably and heroically searched by Cragman and his partners, but I just keep wondering if there's something to be found nearer to town?
Respectfully, to friends and family.
Like so many others, I wish terribly for your closure.
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Todd Quinn
Trad climber
Oceanside, CA
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Onyourleft
Thank you for searching the road. Good chance Matt was walking back in the dark. I believe we all can agree on that?
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ß Î Ø T Ç H
Boulder climber
extraordinaire
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I just keep wondering if there's something to be found nearer to town?
There is alot of people in town for the holiday (more eyes around), but they don't venture too much farther than the parking lots of_ stores as far as I can see. I look for Matt in the obscure areas I go bouldering pretty close by, to no avail.
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SplitPants
Social climber
LA
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Onyourleft +100
Thank you VERY much for taking the time to help search:). It means a lot!
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pacarockhound
Social climber
Escondido CA
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Yes, onyourleft thank you for searching.
Someone on Find Matthew Greene FB page just suggested that the mechanics could be a clue. Have they been thoroughly checked? It seems strange that they kept changing the date and postponing.....how long does it take to get a part these days? Were all the people who worked there interviewed?
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James Wilcox
Boulder climber
The Coast
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Keep in mind that the repair shop is a Goodyear tire store that is also doing engine repair, in a rural community. Basic repairs like replacing brake pads/shoes is probably the type of work they'd rather perform.
There's a lot of factors that lend itself to delays. Parts availability, size of staff(and skill) etc.
Foul play, while a possibility, seems rather unlikely. Matt has seemed to have disappeared without a trace. And I have to think that if some moron had done this there would be some sort of evidence left behind.
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tdg119
Social climber
Northampton, PA
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FWIW, in regards to the head gasket, they had to order one part, then when it came in they realized another part had to be machined. Just didn't have their stuff together. I can't tell you how many times I say 'if only they'd have just fixed his car in a decent time, he'd have been on and gone and this never would have happened". But in the same respect, Matt could have taken his car elsewhere, rented a car, etc. It sucks, but it is what it is.
What I don't understand is why he wasn't reported missing earlier by the repair shop (considering he was obviously eager for his car to be done; surely it's a red flag that once it's done you don't hear back from Matt).
Likewise, he paid an additional night at the campground, all his gear still there but they didn't report him missing either. Threw his stuff in storage and when my parents called asking about retrieving Matt's stuff (after the story was common knowledge)? The first words they heard from the campground was that Matt owed them $100. Really? Despicable.
~ Tiffany
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Supermama
Social climber
pa
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Cragman,
Thank you for all that you have done. Being on the other side of the country and a non-climber the only help I can offer is to support the family and community with my computer and research skills. I have been passing what I have found on to Split Pants. After reading through older threads I came across the post below. Were you able to search this area or is this an area to put on the to be checked list?
"Spoke to a Veteran Mono SAR Team Mbr yesterday who works next door to my office in Bishop that was up in the area searching this past weekend. Asked him if they checked the moat along both sides of the Ritter/Banner snowfield. This time of the year they can separate wide enough to allow a human to fall into and then continue down pretty damn far. Up to 30 maybe even 50 feet. Seen em that wide on just that location some 14 years ago. I also personally know how deep they can get. I fell into one on a descent from Black Bear Lake coming over Granite Park Spire Col two years ago. I caught myself before plunging into a black abyss. It was deeper than shet I tell ya. Had I fallen in and got knocked out, (I was solo), I would have NEVER been found."
Please let us know if this should be added or crossed off the list of places to search.
Supermama
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LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
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Cragman, thank you for your bravery, your hard work, your experience with SAR, and your insights. I agree that the Ritter Range is a very likely location. As you say, his gear, his interests, his fitness, would all be consistent with a big hike there. Your trip reports give one a good sense of the vastness and extremely rugged nature of the area. As you note, just because Matt hasn’t been found there yet doesn’t mean he won’t be.
That said, I’m glad that you acknowledge that he might have gone elsewhere. Whether in the Ritter Range or elsewhere, I’m trying to factor in what Tiffany said:
no helmet (matt does not forget, he is borderline OCD)= no epic climb
no mention of it the night before while texting = no epic climb
solo = no epic climb
day trip = no epic climb
car is going to be ready tomorrow and he is planning leaving early and driving a huge distance = no epic climb
Now, of course, Matt may have planned to do something that most of us would regard as epic and he did not. He may have been tempted to do something bigger than usual. He may not have been as certain he was leaving the next day as we think. Maybe family members tend to overestimate a relative’s caution – I don’t know. But, though clearly something went wrong, everyone says Matt was relatively cautious and methodical.
So, what are some non-epic, or slightly less epic, things Matt might have done? In the Ritter Range, climbing Ritter would be regarded as epic, right? I gather that the standard cross-country route involving Ediza, Cecile, and Minaret Lakes is less epic, but then we have the question of why Matt brought the ice axe and crampons. Are there other objectives in the Ritter Range that are “slightly less epic” but which would require ice axe and crampons (but no helmet, even for someone who usually wore one if needing protection from falling ice or rock)? In any event, if he went somewhere in the Ritter Range, there’s the issue of getting to the trailhead. But maybe he had a ride – maybe that’s why he was up before 3am.
In terms of other areas, Matt had gone to the Mammoth Crest area at least three times before on the trip. On 6/29, he did rock climbing at Crystal Crag with Jill and John. On 7/7 he hiked from Emerald Lake to Mammoth Crest. On 7/12, he went to Mammoth Crest by himself. Do we have any more details on the last two trips? Maybe he said something to Jill or John that might indicate other promising objectives in the area? We don’t know whether Matt had had his fill of that area or whether he still had places he wanted to go there. As Onyourleft notes, however, it’s more accessible from town.
Other, probably less likely possibilities have been mentioned. At one point, MGuzzy suggested that Matt might have gotten up early to watch the sun rise from the top of Mammoth Mountain, though I don’t think he would have needed ice axe and crampons up there, unless he was going elsewhere afterward.(Also, isn't it likely he'd have been found already?)
Maybe there will be more clarity when the family gets access to Matt’s email accounts. In the meantime, my question to those of you who know the area – what are some slightly less epic (or even non-epic) things Matt could have done, whether in the Ritter Range or elsewhere?
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Unless things have changed the nearest machine shop is bishop and that place usually is backed up because it's a one man operation...Did anyone hike stark weather trail...? It can be ridden by mt. bike so i'm guessing it would be hard to get hurt hiking it...? Ritter for some reason sounds like a good call...Maybe because of the sketchy move near the top of the north col..? Mammoth Crest would be another place to look with so many possible spots to hike and scramble...? How frustrating..
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kenish
Gym climber
Orange County, CA
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Several friends here in the LA area own Subarus. Since it's not Toyota or Chevy, parts can take awhile to get. The engine is an unusual configuration and independent shops don't see one everyday, especially since they're a reliable car. For those reasons my friends tend to stick with the dealer.
An indie shop with no part inventory and 5 hours from LA or SF will wait at least 2 days for parts. A head gasket is a major repair and they no doubt discovered additional parts that had to be ordered as they worked on the car.
IMHO the serial delays in completing repairs aren't surprising and it's a stretch to read anything sinister into it.
Taking many days to report the car unclaimed is curious, though. It could be as simple as the person who works with customers and payments was on vacation and the backup person overlooked Matt's car since it had been around for a long time. Was it confirmed Matt was told his car would be ready within a day and that he said he'd pick it up ASAP?
If Matt was on what he felt was his last Sierra adventure for the year, that's a caution flag. I don't climb, but in "risky" activities I've been involved in, many accidents happen on the "last" run....mountain biking, flying, MX, skiing, etc. And the cause of the mishap is usually something very simple.
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onyourleft
climber
Smog Angeles
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I suspect Matthew did not die in some cataclysmic fall. I'm more inclined to believe that while attempting to move quickly over treacherous terrain, he likely suffered an debilitating injury that stopped his progress. Without help, and protection from the environment, he was up against odds that were inevitable.
Cragman, your analysis and speculation are very likely (and tragically) accurate.
At least by bumping this thread back to the front page, people who are affected by this story will continue to think about it and perhaps continue searching while the backcountry is still snow-free. With Labor Day weekend now behind us, the days are getting shorter and colder, and the first snows of the fall are only weeks away. My days of serious mountaineering are years behind me, but maybe there are still some motivated individuals that will get out to the Mammoth backcountry and keep searching.
I didn't get the pleasure of meeting or sharing a campfire with Matt, but his drive and passion resonates deeply within the fond memories of a much younger me...
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Good stuff, Dean. If I was down in the field, I'd want you looking for me.
God bless ya, bro! Good luck.
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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What I don't understand is why he wasn't reported missing earlier by the repair shop (considering he was obviously eager for his car to be done; surely it's a red flag that once it's done you don't hear back from Matt).
Likewise, he paid an additional night at the campground, all his gear still there but they didn't report him missing either. Threw his stuff in storage and when my parents called asking about retrieving Matt's stuff (after the story was common knowledge)? The first words they heard from the campground was that Matt owed them $100. Really? Despicable.
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tdg119
Social climber
Northampton, PA
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My only thought to some of what's been posted is Matt times everything and would turn around, regardless of his place at the time, in order to return before dark fall. He does not climb to "bag" a mountain; if he didn't accomplish a summit he'd just make a point for his next trip round. Having said that, I agree with the theory that he probably experienced a debilitating injury. If it was anything less he'd have crawled out by now. Just want to make it clear that I do not believe any such injury was caused by rushing or carelessness. That's not Matt. I believe it's just a case of Mother Nature besting him; accidents can happen to even the most careful of people.
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Todd Quinn
Trad climber
Oceanside, CA
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Cragman thanks for sharing the information about the deep crevasse close to the glacier. No evidence of Matthew's body suggest he can't be seen from our perspective. After studying the area by photo and people like yourself searching. I can't imagine not checking the difficult crevasses?
My last recover search involved a family member who lowered a video camera in a cave. She found her brothers body after many SAR teams searched and cleared the cave. Guillermo Pino Jr. body fell and took unbelievable angles before resting at the bottom. The camera was a low tech idea but the family produced results without putting anyone in danger.
The danger is all around Ritter and only experience teams should navigate in and around the area. But if they did, have the ability to lower a camera in areas we can't see.
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crankster
Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
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Tiffany, Matt would likely have practiced the general rule of mountaineering, "speed is safety". That is, move fast and deliberate to limit the chances of being caught out at night or in weather, but staying within ones's abilities. Sometimes it's a very fine line.
Hard to argue with Cragman's assessment. Matt's climbing partner's opinion that he would have turned around from a climb if he forgot his helmet puzzles me, however.
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WBraun
climber
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Or .... he was never even in this search area.
No one really knows ......
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LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
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Cragman, thanks for your comments. I stand corrected in my characterization of Ritter as “epic,” though it does sound like it could have involved a big day in the mountains, which of course may have been precisely what Matt had planned.
I realize there are different routes up these mountains, but what is a ballpark sense of how long it would take to go from Agnew Meadows and climb Ritter, Banner, or both? Of course, he still had to get to the trailhead.
Thanks also for your clarification of what might be ruled in or out for Matt by his not having his helmet. Given his practice of signing summit registers and the absence of his name at Banner or Ritter, it sounds to me that if he did go climbing to Banner or Ritter, his accident or injury probably occurred on the approach or the ascent. I take your point that speed might have both seemed necessary and proved his undoing.
I realize from your reports that it’s very hard to see people – whether alive or deceased – in these vast and jumbled areas. Are any of the approaches and climbs more well-traveled, or do they involve fewer more clearly defined routes, so it might have been likely someone would have seen an injured person?
Or maybe Riley is right that even if he went to that area, Matt might not have planned to summit, but rather took some other route? The dangerous “high route" between Ediza and Cecile (or the other way round) described by HighTraverse comes to mind, though if Matt knew how dangerous that was, I don’t think he would’ve done it…
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OutdoorGal
Social climber
Lehigh Valley, PA
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Has anyone considered further the possibility that Matt may have stayed closer to town?
For someone walking from Shady Rest, in the dark, in the middle of the night, the Minarets and the Ritter Range are quite the trek just to get to a trailhead.
Earlier in Matt's climbing tick list, he had climbed on Crystal Crag. He would have seen the Mammoth Crest from that airy summit, and nearly two months ago, there might have appeared enticing snow routes.
A pre-dawn start from Shady Rest, one could walk up Old Mammoth Road into the Lakes Basin to access several trailheads leading up to the "then" snow line. I know the obvious snow lines near Ritter and the Minarets have been admirably and heroically searched by Cragman and his partners, but I just keep wondering if there's something to be found nearer to town?
Others on here have considered and posted the possibility that Matt may have hiked from Shady Rest back to the Mammoth Crest area and surrounds to explore snow fields closer to camp than the Ritter Range is. Blue Couloir was one example given, and I believe I remember seeing a post from one of Matt's friends that said Cragman and High Traverse thought that area might deserve a look. I have not seen them mention it themselves, though, presumably because they are intently zeroed in on the theory that Matt's target was Ritter on the 17th. I would be curious to hear their opinion on whether a search in the Mammoth Crest area (Blue Couloir, for example) might be warranted in addition to the ongoing investigation of Ritter--or if it would at least be prudent to get the word out to other hikers already planning on exploring the trails in this region (I think I saw that Duck Pass Trail was among them?), so as many boots as possible can be on the ground and looking for Matt before the weather changes for the season, making searching more difficult.
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SplitPants
Social climber
LA
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All,
Not sure if this helps but I did a little resarch as I wanted to know the sunrise and sunset for 7/17 and here is the information based on the Mammoth Lakes general lat/long:
Sunrise: 5:48am
Solar noon: 1:02pm
Sunset: 8:16pm
Moonrise: 3:12pm
Moonset: 12:57am
Day length: 14h 29m
[EDIT] Matt's phone was on @ 2:53 AM so that is almost 3 hours prior to sunrise. So that gives him about a 17.5 hour day +/-
Concerning Mammoth Crest he went there on 7/7 via Emerald Lake with Jill and John and then again on 7/12 (solo). Would Matt go there a third time?
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LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
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Thanks, SplitPants!
That's important info re the sun and moon times. (Looks like the moon didn't come up until late that afternoon, and thus would not have been helpful during the first part of Matt's day. Not that moonlight is always that helpful.)
Regarding the Mammoth Crest, would you count Crystal Crag (on 6/29, with Jill and John) as part of it? If so, Matt went there three times and the question is, would he have gone there a fourth time?
ETA: He went there 3 times...
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SplitPants
Social climber
LA
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LAHiker
Yes. So in theory Matt went to that area 3 times (good point). Would he go a 4th?
Cragman/All --feel free to chime in
These are pretty heavily traveled areas. I also stumbled upon information that indicates there was a big trail clean up project this summer for Mammoth Crest (fyi).
I defer to Jill/Cragman/Matts friends for an opinion on this as to whether Matt would go back to the same area a 4th time.
[EDIT: went to area 3 times, not 4-LAHiker]
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Supermama
Social climber
pa
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Hi everyone,
I have reposted Split Pants' links to the lists of facts we do know about Matt's disappearance. We also have a better idea of how Matt thinks now based on previous posts of journal entries. If anything new was found since Split Pants posted this, please add to it. I thought if we consolidated everything and looked at it all together, it might help us to see something we might have missed. Thanks to everyone who has been helping!
Supermama
http://www.supertopo.com/inc/photo_zoom.php?dpid=Oj49Pz4kISslLA,,
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=2195321&tn=1400
http://www.supertopo.com/inc/photo_view.php?dpid=Oj49PDcgIyQlJQ,,
http://www.supertopo.com/inc/photo_view.php?dpid=Oj49PDgoJiQmIw,,
http://www.supertopo.com/inc/photo_view.php?dpid=Oj49PDgoIisjIg,,
http://www.supertopo.com/inc/photo_view.php?dpid=Oj49PDgoISMmIQ,,
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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I agree with Cragman that Matt would continue without helmet. Particularly for the SE Glacier which is rated 3d class.
Regarding the exposed traverse.
Matt had climbed the Rock Route on the Clyde Minaret less than a week previously. The approach had taken him above the south end of this traverse (to the north of Cecile Lake) so he knew what it looked like from above.
He may not have appreciated its full danger unless he actually was on the traverse. It gets worse as you go North.
Would taking that traverse to Ritter have been his plan? Quite possibly; until you get engaged in the hazards, it looks appealing (I got "suckered" into it once). Would he have turned back? I don't think any of us can say.
I haven't been to the Blue Diamond couloir or Crystal Crag so I can't have any opinion.
I DO think that without his helmet, Matt would have not gone onto steep snow/ice anywhere in the Ritter range.
14 1/2 hours from sunrise to sunset, plus at least 30 minutes of dawn/dusk at either end is plenty of time from Minarets summit to Ritter and return. (for Matt who almost relished long days on foot)
I will re-iterate: I don't think Matt would walk to the Ritter range from Shady Rest. That turns a long but reasonable day (for Matt) in the mountains into an epic. We know he didn't mind hitchhiking to get to a climb when his car was broken (his 2006 diary). He would have planned to get back in time for the shuttle bus return, or hitchhike back from the trailhead, or at last resort to even to walk back. I strongly suspect he either hitchhiked or had a pre-planned ride from Mammoth to at least Minarets Summit. If so, that person hasn't come forward. If that person were another traveler, on their way out of the Mammoth area any time before Matt was reported missing they likely haven't heard of his disappearance. (there are far more reasons such a person would NOT hear of Matt's plight than that they would).
My guess is Matt had one of two objectives, either of which required an ice axe and preferably crampons as well but didn't necessarily require a helmet.
1 - Ritter SE Glacier. We can be pretty sure Matt didn't reach the Ritter summit. He would most likely approach via Agnew Meadows trailhead and Lake Ediza. Moats and bergschrunds to capture the careless or unlucky.
2- South Notch (above Cecile Lake) into the Amphitheater Lake arena and possibly around the back side of Adams and possibly climb the 2nd class south slope. Very few people go back there and that may have appealed to Matt for his last day. This would be an easy day over new ground to a new peak. He would approach from the Minarets Creek/Devil's Postpile trailhead. Many climbers down climb from the Clyde summit and then descend South Notch (Matt may have done this when he previously climbed the Clyde Rock Route). An axe and crampons make the reverse ascent from Cecile Lake quite easy. The back (west side) of South Notch is a boulder field, pretty nasty in places. A bad place to break a leg or get jammed in a crevice.
EDIT: D'oh
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Vegasclimber
Trad climber
Las Vegas, NV.
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Cragman,
Thanks for your clear and thoughtful summation. I too have gone away from this thread due to the wild theories, ideas, arguments and other esoteric nonsense that have occurred here. I'd like to remind you all that friends and family of Matt's are reading this thread, and may take some wildy inaccurate guessing and theories as shreds of hope, and it's unfair to them to post these ideas and especially arguments,
Our SAR team had a case regarding a deceased individual that took us over a year to close. We searched over 200 square miles of desert, before finding the individual in an area that had already been searched and cleared by another team.
Keep in mind that this wasn't a person or two, but teams of 30 or more trained individuals that made closure for the family possible.
The SAR environment in an episode like this, as Cragman has said, is about the toughest possible, and I am really glad there are people like Crag that have the knowledge and the heart to do what has to be done. Let's stick to the known facts, and the known facts alone. That is the greatest help that anyone who is not on the ground, or that have no experience with what is going on here, can do to help.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Cragman, Sorry, I read your post three times and my quote twice and just now realized we are in complete agreement.
I'm going to edit my earlier post.
And I believe he likely had a pre-arranged ride to the trailhead I concur
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SplitPants
Social climber
LA
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Cragman & HighTraverse
"Great minds think alike" :)
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phylp
Trad climber
Millbrae, CA
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Mammoth Crest/Lakes Basin area does not add up with him taking his boots, crampons and axe...those areas are melted out this year
This includes Crystal Crag, which people have been asking about - no snow or ice of any kind there. Only well- travelled rock routes...Dozens of people a day this time of year. It's only an hour hike in...
There have been a number of comments along the lines of "Matt couldn't have hitch-hiked because someone would have come forward by now". This strikes me as an unwarranted assumption. Besides HT's reasoning above, Any worker who doesn't speak English (and we have a lot here in CA), might have no idea Matt is missing. Any worker who is an undocumented alien (and we have a lot here in CA), might not come forward. And anyone with a criminal record of any kind, even if not serious, and completely innocent of any activity involving Matt, might not want to come forward and expose themselves to the scrutiny of being the last person to see Matt.
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crankster
Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
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And I believe he likely had a pre-arranged ride to the trailhead, as opposed to hitchhiking.
Is this your thinking because the shuttle driver doesn't recall Matt on the 17th? Or because he would not likely try to summit Ritter starting after the shuttle was running?
I've often wondered if a foreign climber/tourist might have given Matt a ride and returned home, unaware he is missing. The Eastern Sierra corridor is very popular with Europeans. Is there a ST European version?
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LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
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Has there been an attempt to specifically target Mammoth employees and encourage whoever might have given Matt a ride to come forward? Perhaps a small reward would loosen tongues, though it would have to be carefully framed so as not to lead people to make things up.
If a Mammoth employee did drop Matt off at Agnew Meadows or some other place, that would at least confirm that y'all are looking in the right haystack...
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Cragman...There goes your free June Mt. pass...oops..!
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pacarockhound
Social climber
Escondido CA
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1. A question for anyone about why there was not a formal search and rescue when Matt was reported missing, starting from his campsite? I can't get clear on why that wasn't a definite enough starting point.
2. A thought regarding "wild ideas and posts not based on facts". I think it is wonderful that Matt's family has asked for and is open to intuitive guidance re finding Matt. Maybe a couple out there ideas, but I don't think intuition should be discounted.
Ten years ago my family and I moved from one area to another in Riverside County, CA. Several days after we moved into new home my little cat Lya, (a stray originally from Phila.) disappeared. I was distraught and contacted a pet psychic. She said Lya is not dead, is not hurt and that I needed to keep walking the area (10 acres) and leave my scent and sound of my voice, etc. I checked in with her daily and she reported what she saw: a fence, cows, stream, etc. Each time she got an image, I walked to that area and called and called. Most of my friends thought I was crazy. After about three weeks I began to give up hope, but kept up the routine. After 4 weeks, one evening Lya nonchalantly walked in the front door.
Several years later another cat disappeared. Our horse, formally a wild mustang, communicated to me telepathically that she was killed by coyotes, looked in the direction, and then said it was instant. I contacted the same pet psychic and she said she got a clear sense of an aerial view and that Tara was peacefully experiencing things from a spirit body.
I believe we need to accept help in whatever form it comes.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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It's hard for those that haven't been there to comprehend the vastness and complex nature of the terrain.
A large talus slope is literally a "sea of holes" large enough to swallow an adult. You cold be standing on top of someone and never see them.
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SplitPants
Social climber
LA
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[HighTraverse]
I will re-iterate: I don't think Matt would walk to the Ritter range from Shady Rest. That turns a long but reasonable day (for Matt) in the mountains into an epic. We know he didn't mind hitchhiking to get to a climb when his car was broken (his 2006 diary). He would have planned to get back in time for the shuttle bus return, or hitchhike back from the trailhead, or at last resort to even to walk back. I strongly suspect he either hitchhiked or had a pre-planned ride from Mammoth to at least Minarets Summit. If so, that person hasn't come forward. If that person were another traveler, on their way out of the Mammoth area any time before Matt was reported missing they likely haven't heard of his disappearance. (there are far more reasons such a person would NOT hear of Matt's plight than that they would).
[Phylp]
There have been a number of comments along the lines of "Matt couldn't have hitch-hiked because someone would have come forward by now". This strikes me as an unwarranted assumption. Besides HT's reasoning above, Any worker who doesn't speak English (and we have a lot here in CA), might have no idea Matt is missing. Any worker who is an undocumented alien (and we have a lot here in CA), might not come forward. And anyone with a criminal record of any kind, even if not serious, and completely innocent of any activity involving Matt, might not want to come forward and expose themselves to the scrutiny of being the last person to see Matt.
[Crankster]
I've often wondered if a foreign climber/tourist might have given Matt a ride and returned home, unaware he is missing. Is there a ST European version?
And of course cragman:)
Seems a majority of us agree on 1 key thing:
Matt got a ride to a trailhead either via a pre-planned ride or hitch hiking.
I agree with all of the thoughts expressed in the quotes above. Now I want to add some more thoughts.... There are a LOT of people in Mammoth that do not have internet and/or cable. Not sure if anyone is aware but up until about a week ago people were unable to open new internet accounts (for historical reference see local news articles about the 395 project). Companies were at capacity and my understanding is there was/is a long wait (not sure if this is still the case). The other issue is cost. Some people up there choose not to have those types of services due to cost (Most EVERYTHING cost an arm and a leg up there) and/or their lifestyle. If they need to use the internet they go to the library or places like the Looney Bean where this is free computer access.
I did run into people when in Mammoth the weekend of the 18th that are climbers/hikers that have been living in town for years. They did not know Matthew was missing. Again, these people don't surf the internet as they are either doing something in the outdoors or are eeeking out a living trying to work and they watch very little television.
We might want to think about alternative ways to get the word out around town. I saw lots of flyers when we were there, but not every place was covered and am not sure how many flyers are still around.
I think the odds of a mountain employee having given Matt a ride are right up there as well as a tourist from out of town/country.
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LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
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Pacarockhound,
Others may answer this better, but I think the police did start their investigation with the campsite. I think the reason there wasn't a search starting from there was that whereas Matt went missing on July 17th, it wasn't realized that he was missing until considerably later -- I don't know exactly when. At that point, the trail had in effect gone cold, so that tracker dogs, for instance, were deemed unhelpful. He could also have gone in many directions and could have gotten a ride that morning.
Mentioning intuitive aspects on this thread has unfortunately triggered so much contention that most people are trying to only discuss those things in the thread that Tiffany started, of which you are aware. Thus each thread can focus on what it does best.
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/2213600/Mammoth-topography-in-regards-to-Visions-FindMattGreene
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OutdoorGal
Social climber
Lehigh Valley, PA
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Cragman, FYI. This trip report posted below by another forum member is from 2006, but someone did mention in it that there was plenty of snow in Blue Couloir in August, and that axe and crampons were helpful in navigating the steep sections.
http://highwire.stanford.edu/~galic/hiking/mammoth2006/crest.html
Was the climate different this year to alter the terrain so no snow would have been evident at the time of Matt's disappearance?
Know that I am not trying to be argumentative at all. Just trying to help. Some folks on here early on mentioned that Blue Couloir was the closest place to Shady Rest to have some fun on snow/ice, and that struck me as an important point considering the gear that Matt had set out with on the 17th and that he had no car.
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pacarockhound
Social climber
Escondido CA
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I believe I have read every post and every link and site regarding the search for Matt. I have not found a good answer to why a large scale search could not have simply begun at his campsite. I appreciate what has been done on the ground and in the air, and the vast amounts of energy and time and courage.
I think more flyers is an excellent idea, and working on leads for rides he got is also excellent.
True, I don't know the area. But I keep wondering about mines and caves. Are they being searched by anyone?
btw, my father(also from Bethlehem PA) was an Appalachian Mountain climber and suffered a stroke and fell off his bike when he was 50, hiking alone in White Mountains. Someone was driving by and a young boy was looking out the back window so just happened to see him. I understand there are many possible scenarios.
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kenish
Gym climber
Orange County, CA
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A group of us from the LA area were in Mammoth around Aug. 16 All of us mountain bike, hike, fish, etc. "Missing" posters were posted in shops and restaurants but not conspicuously. One evening, I brought up Matt's case. None in the group had heard, or noticed any posters. Other neighbors and colleagues who visit Mammoth 1-4x a year had heard about Matt. Posters ought to be "refreshed" and posted in more conspicuous spots.
My point is that regular, repeat visitors aren't aware of the situation. As others said, it's very likely some nice family or person gave Matt a ride and is completely unaware. Very frustrating, but that's the unfortunate reality. This board is an isolated microcosm.
I was thinking that the search is like a small handful of dedicated people looking for someone hidden in a room in Manhattan. And it's not 100% certain they're even in the city.
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pacarockhound
Social climber
Escondido CA
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LA Hiker,
Okay, will keep intuitive hunches to the other Visions thread. Just had to say something in defense of that approach!:)
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SplitPants
Social climber
LA
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I was thinking that the search is like a small handful of dedicated people looking for someone hidden in a room in Manhattan. And it's not 100% certain they're even in the city.
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CyDuke
climber
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I have followed this thread and wow it's all over the place. And maybe that's why I see so much close-mindedness now. I know the search has to be started somewhere but what I am beginning to see as an outsider looking in, with no vested interest in either side (family or search) is like a horse with blinders. Had to chime in after this:
Let's stick to the known facts, and the known facts alone.
Here are the facts:
Matt Greene is missing.
His backpack, crampons, boots, ice ax, 30 pages of guide book is missing.
He was last seen on July 16th, last heard from on July 16.
He got a text at approx 3am on the 17th from PA.
He did not take his helmet.
And some areas checked showed no trace of him.
So by this statement of going by facts and facts alone, everyone may as well shut down their computers and put away their hiking gear.
And since that is not a viable option if anyone has any hopes to find Matt, a little speculation has to take place. Problem is a lot of speculation is taking place. Lots of thoughts, ideas and some things that make sense are being discounted.
Cragman dude, props to you for all you have done. Man you have stepped up and seriously you are like my hero. And I mean no disrespect if I question some of your thoughts. They are your thoughts and I respect them as much as I respect you. You are a one in a million and I'd go to war with you any day. I'm just trying to make sense of one of the theories.
And I believe he likely had a pre-arranged ride to the trailhead, as opposed to hitchhiking.
This just makes no sense. It is not out of his character to hitch, we know that. Hitching at 3am either wouldn't be a good idea or very little traffic and wouldn't get a ride anyway. But, just the getting up at 3am seems like it didn't fit in with anything that Matt did before anyway. (out of character = clue). Also you said he may have gotten a prearranged ride with a Mammoth employee that doesn't speak English. If Matt only spoke English, how would this have been communicated? How could he have prearranged a ride? And would a Mammoth employee get up early just to give Matt a ride? And wouldn't there have been a text/call saying "on my way?" And seems to me if he prearranged a ride with another camper, he and his ride would have more than likely hiked together. And as far as we know no one else is missing. This just makes me question the whole pre-dawn ride. So, it leaves two other options. He got up early and walked somewhere or he got up early, checked his phone, went back to sleep and took the bus (but no witnesses, so impossible to know). He took the bus before to that area, so I would think if Matt was going to head back to that area, he probably would have waited and taken the bus. He did it before and seemed to work out for him okay. Why fix it if it ain't broke?
Another post I can't seem to ignore is the car being promised earlier.
If his car was promised earlier, he wouldn't have anticipated still being there on the 17th. Just seems if he really wanted to do this, it would have been done earlier than the 17th because I don't think he believed he would still be there on the 17th earlier in the month.
This makes a lot of sense. Do we know for sure if his car was promised earlier? If Ritter was on his things to do list, he had 5 days to get it done before the 17th. But, instead he went on to other places. Maybe Ritter was scratched off his bucket list.
And on to the crampons, boots, ax.
This trip report posted below by another forum member is from 2006, but someone did mention in it that there was plenty of snow in Blue Couloir in August, and that axe and crampons were helpful in navigating the steep sections.
http://highwire.stanford.edu/~galic/hiking/mammoth2006/crest.html
Not directing anyone to Blue Couloir, but this is just an example of other places his equipment could have been used. Ritter can't be the only place to use the missing equipment. Maybe going by the theory that he was up and out early, there was a place closer to camp that would have suited his use of crampons and such.
Helmet
Got in the car: later had the "oh shit" momentand decided to carry on. Possibly didn't find out till he got out of the car and shouldered his pack. I might change my objective but would carry on.
From Family: I don't think Matt would forget his helmet. I think it had to be left intentionally.
Would he have left it behind to do Ritter? I know some people would, but would Matt, being in uncharterted territory (for him) and also solo?
Guide book, thoughts here are that those pages were ripped out on the 11th when he ultimately hiked Clyde. According to maintenance dude he was considering areas in the guide book. He could have had it in his backpack all along and could lend no assistance to his possible direction that day.
There area few more things I see as an outsider, but I think these are big enough to consider. Facts cannot be manipulated to fit the theory. If it seems far-fetched, then it probably is.
What is needed is the one thing that is missing. Man power. And any hope of finding direction by use of dogs and/or investigation was taken away the day the campground owners/employees decided to pack up his stuff and put it in storage without calling authorities. hiker didn't come back for gear? And that wasn't a huge red flag? It is really unfortunate.
That's my two cents and not intended to insult anyone. Maybe some will agree, others will disagree. So little to go on and I just hope for a good and conclusive outcome.
Again, Cragman, props man. If anyone finds him, I hope it is you because you have put your heart and soul into this.
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phylp
Trad climber
Millbrae, CA
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Just want to add... it's no info that adds value, but I stayed this weekend at the Mammoth RV park, which is directly across the street from Shady Rest. It is the closest place to get a paid shower, and the closest place to do laundry. When I used to stay at Shady Rest, I would walk over there to buy a shower. The same 3 people are always at work in the office (I stay there at least once a year now). I asked them if they had heard about Matt. They said yes and knew about the search. I asked if anybody had asked about him and they said yes. Which speaks to the question being asked of why hasn't anybody done a search from the campground. The police may have done a lot of things that are not appearing on this thread.
Anyway they just shrugged and said "If he came in to buy a shower or to get the code for the laundry..." Meaning, they wouldn't remember, tourists come in all the time, many a day in the summer, and they didn't remember anything.
I have stayed at this RV park a number of times without a car, and my circuit... walking to the library for real internet (before my smart phone), the Von's, the Rite-Aid. The same as Matt's circuit. So many of us travel the same paths. We feel his presence. Even if they haven't posted to this thread, his friends and family should know that many people, on their travels and climbs in the area, long after this thread has fallen from the front page, will keep looking.
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Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
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very frustrating for all involved,
one comment would be that a solo climber would tend to be much more conservative in what they did, knowing that if something happened, they could not depend on finding help,
also, have there ever been people stalked by big cats up there at that area?
in not then that is something else than can be crossed off the list,
good luck and prayers
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2 l l
Sport climber
Rancho Verga, CA
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He was probably carrying his wallet with ID. May be one day, if that is found, it will indicate what/ where everything happened more or less - like with Fossett.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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I know someone who was stalked in the knolls above mammoth by a mt. lion at night....Not sure about the back country though..?
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OutdoorGal
Social climber
Lehigh Valley, PA
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Does anyone--Dan Watson--know whether the witnesses who came forward on Facebook and claimed to have talked to Matt at Shady Rest in the days before his disappearance had any significant clues to offer?
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SplitPants
Social climber
LA
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OutdoorGal
Does anyone--Dan Watson--know whether the witnesses who came forward on Facebook and claimed to have talked to Matt at Shady Rest in the days before his disappearance had any significant clues to offer?
I sent this information along with other information located by Supermama to the detective handling the case yesterday. Detective Hornbeck will review and determine next steps.
Thanks for asking.....
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kenish
Gym climber
Orange County, CA
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@crsgman. Hope you have a speedy recovery! !
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SplitPants
Social climber
LA
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Cragman +100
Yes, so not possible and really.................inappropriate. Arggggg
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OutdoorGal
Social climber
Lehigh Valley, PA
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SplitPants, thanks. I had actually PM'd the names of the Facebook folks to Dan Watson on Wednesday 8/28 (at the request of another Supertopo member) and heard back from him on 8/29 that he was going to forward that info to Detective Hornbeck. I was hoping that the witnesses would have been reached by now and questioned. Days have gone by at this point. These people allegedly talked to Matt in the days before he disappeared and he even apparently showed them his guidebook and discussed his plans. People are speculating ad nauseum about where Matt might have gone. These people might have a concrete lead to narrow the search area. If I were a family member, I would be asking today where this questioning stands.
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
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i live in an area with mountain lions around all the time
my neighbors never allow their dogs and young children to roam free
if mountain lions liked people, you would read about it in the news every day until they were hunted to extinction like California grizzlies
we smell bad and taste bad from all the poisons in our diet
they watch us all the time
some young and uneducated ones are more curious about us
if you ever see one, that's because it's just curious to gauge your reaction
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WBraun
climber
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we smell bad and taste bad from all the poisons in our diet
So true ......
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SplitPants
Social climber
LA
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Outdoor Gal
SplitPants, thanks. I had actually PM'd the names of the Facebook folks to Dan Watson on Wednesday 8/28 (at the request of another Supertopo member) and heard back from him on 8/29 that he was going to forward that info to Detective Hornbeck. I was hoping that the witnesses would have been reached by now and questioned. Days have gone by at this point. These people allegedly talked to Matt in the days before he disappeared and he even apparently showed them his guidebook and discussed his plans. People are speculating ad nauseum about where Matt might have gone. These people might have a concrete lead to narrow the search area. If I were a family member, I would be asking today where this questioning stands.
I spoke to the detective handling the case this morning. He indicated he will take a look at the posts to facebook and get back to me. He already spoke to folks out at the campground and likely needs to cross check that information against the names of the individuals that posted to facebook (is my guess).
Thanks
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tdg119
Social climber
Northampton, PA
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Split - I will email you the details on the person. ` Ron
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LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
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SplitPants and Outdoor Gal – Thanks for moving things forward with Detective Hornbeck regarding interviewing those people who had contact with Matt! Because it looks like the search window for this fall will close soon, I’m with you in hoping that those interviews can be conducted ASAP. Along with gaining access to Matt's email accounts, that could help narrow things down.
Cragman – my regards to your big toe! The surgery sounds painful and unpleasant. Most of one of my own big toe toenails recently fell off (long story), and so far I don’t miss it. Wishing you a speedy recovery, and thanks for all you do!
Regarding mountain lions, down here in Southern California, despite occasional incidents, mountain lions are largely reclusive and avoid people. (Knock on wood.) For a long time, the one that currently lives in Los Angeles’s Griffith Park wasn’t even seen by wildlife researchers until they trapped him (to put a radio collar on him). But more recently, he’s been seen a couple of times by hikers. I think that due to the very dry conditions, he’s recently been drawn to human made water sources in the park such as horse troughs – maybe drought contributes to changes in mountain lion behavior elsewhere as well. But I agree, mountain lion attack is extremely unlikely.
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SplitPants
Social climber
LA
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All,
If there is anyone that has plans or is willing to refresh the flyers in town this weekend please send me a PM. We really could use help doing this and one other task if time permits.
If interested please send me a PM. Thanks
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crankster
Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
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Historically, the mountains around Mammoth get a decent snowfall in early November. It could be sooner, of course, but I'd estimate there's 2 more months until the hiking trails are covered.
A lot of people, me included, are monitoring this thread hoping a clue is unearthed to help locate Matt before winter. A person who gave him a ride coming forward, a recollection of a conversation; tangible information - anything that would focus the search area.
Any and all ideas towards that end are helpful. Speculation about mountain lions is not helpful.
I think Matt went to an area where he could find a classic climb, one in the Secor guidebook. This had been his pattern. Those areas are fairly well-traveled and I'm hoping someone finds a trace soon.
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kenish
Gym climber
Orange County, CA
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Matt's disappearance has many parallels to the search for a missing veteran backcountry ranger in Sequoia about 15 years ago. "The Last Season" is a good book about it; the search for Matt reminded me of the book. Google "Randy Morgenson" for many online articles. A good one is: http://www.backpacker.com/survival_guide_skills_how_to_stay_safe_in_the_wilderness/skills/12226 (Hope it's OK to post a link, if not it's on the Backpacker website).
The search areas were based on their knowledge of the terrain and habits. Seems like that's exactly what people who have searched for Matt are doing, except for not being able to assemble enough experts for a vote as explained on p10 of the article.
The article and book discuss many theories that made the rounds. It came down to Occam's Razor...the simplest explanation with the fewest assumptions turned out to be true. The article is sparse on details at the end and doesn't mention Morgenson wasn't found for 5 years, in spite of the intensive search effort that included several sweeps just a few feet from his final resting place. I'm bringing all this up because it helps to understand the difficulty of searches in the Sierras.
I hope Matt is located very soon.
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SplitPants
Social climber
LA
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Kenish
Thanks for the article. I read that several years ago don't know why I didn't think of posting the link oh about a few hundred links ago so +10 for you Kenish! Gonna read it again. We happen to know the author Eric Blehm from back in the day. Little bit of Trivia for fun, first Eric has published a few books that are really good so look him up on Amazon. Second, back in the 90's Eric was the southern california sales Rep for Burton Snowboards.
Now back to our regularly scheduled program..........
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silentone
Mountain climber
wisconsin
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Hello all great work by all.
I have been following this thread and I have read every post and I have not seen anything to do with what matt ate.
Are there any clues to be gleened from what kind of a food suply he had on hand or might have purchased recently? Rite aid purchase seems important in this respect.(AND OTHER RESPECTS) Was he buying food there regularly? Eating out? Did he have food stashed at his car or a bear box at the campground? Did he snack or was he in the habit of having a large meal?
Anyone?
Thanks
S.O.
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scooter
climber
fist clamp
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I have seen Mtn lions up in that area as well as a lot of bears. I wonder if he had a bear canister? I have seen and treated people who have had there food swiped out from under their heads by bears. Nasty facial lacerations and the bear hardly touched them. One of the guys was cut to the bone on his head and face, if it swiped his neck instead....
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PAUL SOUZA
Trad climber
Central Valley, CA
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Matt wasn't going overnight. No need for a bear can.
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tdg119
Social climber
Northampton, PA
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A hiker in the area sent me this note:
Kelly will add to the map.
Hi - I am not sure if this is very helpful but wanted to report that we were family camping overnight over the labor day weekend hiking from Agnew Meadow to Thousand Islands Lake near the cross of the JMT & the PCT- My husband climbed the eastern side of Banner on Monday am to get a couple of skiing turns in and saw no evidence of Matthew. My husband made his own trail and was looking closely for anything that seemed unusual.
~Ron
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Ron
Good data update
a couple of skiing turns in Evidence of moderate snow conditions that might have appealed to Matt.
Like Tom Cochrane, I live in Mt Lion country. We live on opposite sides of the same stretch of wilderness. I saw one late at night at the top of my driveway almost exactly a year ago about 100 feet away. He looked at me and just kept going….away from me.
Puma Concolor is wary of people. Chance that a healthy adult was attacked by one is almost nil. Black bears in California ditto.
Millions of people live in or travel into Mt Lion and Black Bear country in CA every year without trouble. In 26 years there have been 13 verified attacks on people by Mt Lions in Ca. with 3 fatalities.
http://www.dfg.ca.gov/wildlife/lion/attacks.html
There are far more likely possibilities.
Dean, take care of that durned toe! Must really hurt.
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James Wilcox
Boulder climber
The Coast
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And the thought that an animal could be responsible, an leave absolutely no trace of an attack, is pretty inconceivable.
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SplitPants
Social climber
LA
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Hi,
I asked a similar question to Jill the other day as far as restaurants they visited while they were in town, any food likes/dislikes. She mentioned he likes ZPizza (it's near Rite-aid) and they went to a lot of different places when there. I plan to stop by ZPizza when I get there.
Jill, do you know what Matt's habits were as far as breakfast? Did he usually eat at camp, eat it on the run en rote to or when hiking (power bars and stuff), did he like a breakfast such as eggs, pancakes, or things like cereal? Helps to know breakfast habit because if he sometimes at it at a restaurant there are a couple places very close to his camp. Any other thoughts would help. Any restaurants besides ZPizza you went to that he liked or you think he might have gone back to?
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tdg119
Social climber
Northampton, PA
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Sharing a msg from Matt's friend Chris rec'd thru Facebook:
"T/R
Working through some technical issues on the Iron Mountain photos..I have to find the Nikon CD to load the pictures to my computer. Once I have them up, I will get them to Kelly...and refine the area searched range. But again, no evidence.
Also on the timeline, you can tag the 7 minute phone call on 7/15 9:35pm/6:35pm to me.
Also I scored this find:
http://www.firstchurchofthemasochist.com/2013/07/iron-mountain-from-devils-postpile-for.html
from a group that was out there on 7/20-7/21. I will follow up with them to see if any of them got a photo of the summit register."
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Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
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a map that shows a trail with dates from his last known position to his first known position and the search locations done as well as the possible areas he could have reached might generate some more ideas,
any factual clues could also be written on the map,
as far as a big cat being involved, the vote seems to indicate we can eliminate that as a possible explanation, some areas in California are getting to be heavily populated by lions, Henry Coe Park, Santa Cruz Mountains, I was just wondering if these mountains in the Eastern Sierra had seen the same growth in numbers,
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Dan Watson
climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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We finally got a response from Rite-Aid about getting a copy of the sales receipt for the purchases made by Matthew on July 16. That information is only kept for 14 days and it is no longer available.
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JNCalif
Social climber
Hoboken, NJ by way of Orange County, CA
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Another thought, and my apologies if it's already been suggested (I read through the thread but it's entirely possible I missed this.) So many here, especially SplitPants, have compiled such comprehensive information about everything that is known about Matt's disappearance.
I came across a missing person's report on
https://www.findthemissing.org/en/cases/show/21261
this website, and I thought it might make sense to update Matthew's profile with all of the data so that all of these details are available to people who might not make their way to SuperTopo.
Just a thought and I continue to hope and pray with you all that Matt will be found soon.
[url="http://https://www.findthemissing.org/en/cases/show/21261"]http://https://www.findthemissing.org/en/cases/show/21261[/url]
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Has anyone checked with the staff at Red's Meadow hot springs? (near Devil's Postpile)
EDIT: It's hard to see why Matt would have gone there on his last trip (with ice axe and crampons) but perhaps he had gone earlier, or perhaps he caught a ride with staff.
Checking there is rather a long shot but easily done.
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Todd Quinn
Trad climber
Oceanside, CA
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I have the next few days off, so I'm leaving for Mammoth in the morning. Not sure what the availability is on Shady Rest Campground? but I would like to stay there and hike from the campground to Agnew Meadows trailhead. I can also refresh the flyers and post more. I'll have my crash pad and bike. If you want to join me, please message me.
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SplitPants
Social climber
LA
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Todd,
Would be great if you can post flyers. Do you have the initial one that was posted? I also have another one Ron sent me that also has Spanish. Please PM me.....thx
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LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
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Cragman,
Ouch -- hope you can get more antibiotics soon! If you can't, in addition to elevation, icing or moist heat (i.e., hot compresses) can help your body fight the infection. (Also, according to Euell Gibbons, a hot poultice of the skins of overripe bananas, which have antiseptic, antibiotic, and emollient properties. But it's hard to make such a poultice if you're out of town...)
I had a question for you and others familiar with the area. Not trying to argue, just trying to narrow things down.
Cragman:
Matt going to Blue Couloir or any objective in the Mammoth Crest/Lakes Basin area does not add up with him taking his boots, crampons and axe...those areas are melted out this year.
We are on two years of drought winters....the snow has been gone for quite some time.
So, just to confirm, in mid-July this summer there would have been no appreciable snow anywhere on the Mammoth Crest? Is Matt likely to have known this? For instance, would he have seen large swathes of the Mammoth Crest when he climbed Crystal Crag on 6/29 and when he hiked from Emerald Lake to Mammoth Crest on 7/7? I suspect that a lot of the Mammoth Crest is visible from that climb and hike, but I'm not familiar with the area so I don't know.
(The climb and the hike were both with Jill and John. Matt also went to the Mammoth Crest area on 7/12 but he was alone and we don't know where he went.)
Conversely, are there any tempting places with snow -- whether in the Mammoth Crest or elsewhere -- that he might have seen on the 6/29 climb or the 7/7 hike? (Jill and John would probably also know about this...)
Thanks!
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Hiked up toward blue crag yesterday...very little if any snow up there..Not even worth taking ice ax , crampons like Cragman mentioned earlier....
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kenish
Gym climber
Orange County, CA
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@LA Hiker- I was at Lake Mary and Lake George on Aug. 17 I walked around and took lots of photos by pure coincidence. I've reviewed the ones of Mammoth Crest and the area was snow-free.
mammothtrails.org reported Mammoth Crest trail was "clear and in great shape" on July 25. Since the trail is popular with casual hikers, I'd assume they meant completely clear of snow.
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LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
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Thanks, RJ and Kenish!
I was just trying to figure out (1) whether there had been snow on the Mammoth Crest in mid-July and (2) if not, whether Matt would have known there wasn't.
Based on what your reports, it sounds like there wouldn't have been appreciable snow in the Mammoth Crest area at that point, and that Matt probably would have known that, from his 6/29 Crystal Crag climb and his 7/7 hike to Mammoth Crest (if not from other sources).
More generally, I'm wondering whether there were any objectives with snow on July 17th that would have been within a reasonable day hike from Shady Rest...
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2 l l
Sport climber
Rancho Verga, CA
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I can confirm Bloody Coulior is dry. No snow or ice in there. I saw from a good angle today.
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ß Î Ø T Ç H
Boulder climber
extraordinaire
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Taken this evening >>
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tdg119
Social climber
Northampton, PA
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Hi - I recieved another offline PM from a person in the area:
I know this comes a little late in the search, but as someone who sees travels to and from the town of Mammoth a lot, I recall seeing a younger man wearing a hat and glasses hitchhiking out of Mammoth sometime in July. It has bothered me that I didn't say anything but I was worried that this person was probably not Matthew and would have diverted your searches. I don't recall anything else about him (pack, hat color, eye color, etc...) but I thought I would share.
Also, it seems to me like the search is focused primarily in the Ritter/Banner and Minerets area, which is where the clues seem to lead. If he was ice climbing/mountaineering, should you expand the search to other prominent summer ice areas (North Peak, Dana Couloir, Conness Glacier)
When we hiked Conness the other day we watched a small rockfall come down and across the glacier there. It got me thinking that even if the terrain weren't particularly challenging, with glaciers receding it would causes new potential rock falls. Wherever you search, be safe out there and good luck. Will continue to keep my eyes out.
~Ron
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crankster
Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
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We found his Yarts bus schedule which was very worn. Obviously he used it in prior days but didn't have it with him on the 17th. So that led us to believe he didn't go to Toulomne?????
We doubt he would do Dana twice, it's not like him to repeat climbs.
^^^^ From his climbing partners Jill & John. It's certainly possible he had a pre-arranged ride to Tuolumne, however. I don't see him hitchhiking in the pre-dawn hours.
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tdg119
Social climber
Northampton, PA
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agree. A prearranged ride fits. He wakes up…turns his phone on to see if the ride called/calls him. ~ron
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WBraun
climber
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Have you people subpoena all his wireless phone records yet?
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crankster
Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
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He would not solo the North Peak Couloir, from what Jill said. Even though she doesn't think he'd climb the Dana Couloir again, he did mention it had the best snow/ice he'd seen and it is something he would solo (pretty sure he already had) and might not bring a helmet.
It's a well-traveled area, however. I would rate this scenario 2nd to the Ritter Range scenario in likelihood.
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scooter
climber
fist clamp
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Red Slate is the July ice climbing target in that area, more so than anything else. I don't think I have read anyone mentioning that spot.
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Stimbo
Trad climber
Crowley Lake
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How about this scenario:
Matt went into the backcountry to retrieve his mountaineering boots and ice axe that he had previously cached from one of his earlier climbs. When he first arrived, after his car broke down, he could have taken his ice climbing equipment into an area not knowing the current conditions. Once he was back there and saw the lack of snow and ice, he may have hidden his boots and axe, then bagged a summit in his tennis shoes (or whatever) and then with the lateness of day, sprinted back to Mammoth to avoid a bivy. When word came that his Subaru was ready for pickup, he wanted to return to the base of the route to retrieve his stashed gear. This would explain his leaving his helmet behind.
To test this hypothesis, and I apologize if something like this has been posted already, all of his recent ascents would need to be revisited. In particular, the base of snow/ice routes where he might have stashed his gear.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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I've been re-thinking the possibility that Matt headed for the Tioga Pass area.
Unfortunately the ONLY connections between YARTS and the Yosemite Tioga Road shuttle bus are at Tuolumne Meadows store and lodge and these are the only YARTS' stops west of the Mobile station on 395.
Public transit doesn't get Matt within reasonable walking distance of any Yosemite summer snow/ice climbs which are all in the Tioga Pass area.
Rant:
What ARE YARTS (private bus) and Yosemite thinking to not have any stops at Tioga Pass?
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LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
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WBraun -- the family has Matt's cell phone records -- he received no calls on the morning of July 17th, but when he turned on the phone at 2:53am (which apparently was very uncharacteristic of him) he received a text from the night before from someone in Pennsylvania.
It's possible that he was checking his phone for the absence of a call -- that he had an early-morning ride lined up and that things were left that his ride would call him during the night if there was a problem.
It's also conceivable, though much less likely, that the driver was going to call him to confirm the ride and that -- not having received a confirmation -- he got ready and started walking...
Finally, of course Matt's turning on his phone at that hour could have had nothing to do with a ride -- he could even have gone back to sleep when he turned it off.
What I don't think the family has been able to gain access to yet is Matt's email accounts.
Stimbo -- interesting, but I think unlikely. For one thing, even if Matt had stashed his snow-related equipment temporarily, why wouldn't he have picked it up on the way back to town? Also, he had been in the area since June 28th and had had days on rock and days on snow, so he probably had an good idea of what areas had snow or not. For future reference, here's a timeline of his climbs, assembled by SplitPants:
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=2195321&msg=2213723#msg2213723
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SplitPants
Social climber
LA
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he received no calls on the morning of July 17th, but when he turned on the phone at 2:53am (which apparently was very uncharacteristic of him) he received a text from the night before from someone in Pennsylvania.
It's possible that he was checking his phone for the absence of a call -- that he had an early-morning ride lined up and that things were left that his ride would call him during the night if there was a problem.
(Of course it's also conceivable, though much less likely, that the driver was going to call him to confirm the ride and that -- not having received a confirmation -- he got ready and started walking somewhere...) -------
The 2:53 AM text message has been mentioned a lot. So I will add some of my thoughts to this:
-If someone sends a text message to a person and their cell phone happens to be turned off then the text message goes into what I call limbo/pending status.
-When the intended recipient turns their cell phone on, the system then recognizes the pending text recipient's cell phone is on and sends along the text message. So in summary I could send my husband a text message at 10am, his phone is turned off, he turns on the phone at 1pm and the text message appears. Records will show text message received at 1:00.
-So the person from PA could have sent the text much earlier in the evening when Matt's phone was off after 8pm.
-I looked at all of Matt's pictures multiple times and I did not see him wearing a watch. I don't wear a watch and use my cell phone to tell the time.
-The campground was noisy (I believe Matt complained about this)
-Late night noise woke Matt up, he rolled over to power on his phone to see what time it was
-Text message shows up (the text that could have been sent hours earlier-after Matt had shut his phone off to go to sleep) and now shows as a text received at 2:53)
In looking back at Matt's climbs and the timing of previous calls/messages I am not seeing where Matt got up super early. He had been in town since the 28th of June and to the best of my understanding he was a heavy user of the public transportation options available (perhaps Jill can chime in).
Then again, he could have had a pre-planned ride, hitch hiked etc....
I am just looking at the most simple explanation based on his previous days, noisy campground and no watch (at least not that I am aware of).
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Split
Your explanation of the text message at 2:53 is cogent.
It gives us the last data point for Matt: awake and within reach of the cell tower.
(not necessarily in his tent at Shady Rest)
I don't believe we can extrapolate beyond that.
It does eliminate the possibility of his presence outside the immediate Mammoth area at that time. This exclusion is very important.
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tdg119
Social climber
Northampton, PA
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Split is 100% correct...
the thing about the phone that makes me Nuts...I have looked at Matts Cell phone bill for the prior 2 months...NEVER, NOT ONCE was his phone on this early. Remember he was there for a month, he arranged rides, called people, got up in the middle of the night to pee pee, did everything he normally does....
People have suggested he got up to use it as an alarm clock, go to the restroom, maybe needed a light, or do whatever.... (NO!!! The phone being on at 2.53am PT is the biggest, most obvious, undisputable Red Flag we have).
His phone bill is clockwork....Everyday the Phone comes on around 6am and goes off everyday around 9pm..FOR 2 MONTHS, CLOCKWORK!, NOT A SINGLE EXCEPTION...
WHY ON THE DAY HE GOES MISSING DOES IT BREAK THE PATTERN? Everyone says to look for things "out of the ordinary" in SAR, look for what does not belong, etc...
The phone being on at 2.53am PT is the biggest, most obvious, undisputable Giant Red Flag slapping us in the face we have.
It can only mean 3 things:
1. He was in trouble and tried to call for help.
2. He was expecting a pre-arranged ride from somone he did not know
(expecting they would call him for example, if they did not see him at
the discussed meeting spot)
3. Someone else had it and turned it on.
If we ever figure out why his phone came on, we will have all the answers.
~Ron
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LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
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SplitPants and HighTraverse,
Excellent points. I do find it a bit odd that (based on his cell phone records) Matt turned on his cell phone at such an early hour only on the 17th, not on any other day that he was in Mammoth Lakes. That might imply that it had something to do with what he was doing rather than just because he was awakened by noise. (And this was mid-week -- aren't campgrounds usually rowdier on weekends??) But as HighTraverse points out, we just don't know.
I do notice that Matt's phone was on at 5am on July 15th, when the timeline says he might have taken YARTS to Tuolomne (but that was unconfirmed). But 5am and 2:53am are rather different, in my opinion.
I hope that Matt's family can gain access to his email accounts soon, and also that Detective Hornbeck (or someone) can also quickly interview the people who came forward to say that they had had contact with Matt in the days before he went missing.
ETA: Ron, we were posting at the same time... I agree it's weird though maybe he could've had a special concern about the time if he'd lined up an early ride with someone he didn't know...
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tdg119
Social climber
Northampton, PA
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@ Dave, yes we can tell when it goes off as Split describes the timestamps
EDIT: I should say goes off between 9 and 10 +/- at the latest. Comes on at 5am +/- at the earliest over the course of the time.
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tdg119
Social climber
Northampton, PA
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So...If he was expecting a pre-arranged ride from somone he did not know.....
possible but again....he did this before and did not turn his phone on this early..it still breaks the pattern.
I am leaning to #1 - he was in trouble and tried to call for help...
put yourself there...Its 3am, its mid-week (quite), the people to the left and right of you are gone. No one is nearby. Someone attacks him, grabs his body and gear, tring to dispose of the evidence or make it look like a hiking accident or grabing the easist thing of value.
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KellyDoesntClimb
Social climber
Dunwoody, GA
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Checking in, my map at maps.google.com is now empty but has a link to one that is better for me to edit. I can't figure out how to edit it while in earth mode, which would make the trails/highlighted areas more accurate, but the fact that it has layers makes it easier to view. You should be able to check or un-check the timeline (green) and see the red (searched) and yellow (not searched).
https://mapsengine.google.com/map/edit?mid=zH95mGu2yK0M.k0POTplcpetE
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James Wilcox
Boulder climber
The Coast
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regarding an attack in a campground. While anything is possible, in all my time spent in Eastside Sierra campgrounds(considerable) I've never heard of this type of random attack or violence. Arguments and fights have broken out from time to time, but usually among people that know each other, and typically alcohol-infused. But if Matt was attacked at 3:00 am I gotta think someone heard something who was nearby. Noise in a campground that early in the morning is not appreciated and usually gets attention.
Now, if he had been woken up by noisey neighbors, and turned on his phone to check the time, you'd think he would quickly turn it back off. Leaving it on does seem to indicate an objective.
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PAUL SOUZA
Trad climber
Central Valley, CA
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^^Agreed.
I had two guys attempt to break into my truck at 0420 in January of 2012 while I was sleeping in the back out at the hotsprings just 10 mins south of Mammoth. Yelling some expletives at the top of my lungs was all it took to scare the shet out of them and run away. Thugs just aren't that bold to stick around, especially in a campground with other people around.
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LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
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James Wilcox said:
Now, if he had been woken up by noisey neighbors, and turned on his phone to check the time, you'd think he would quickly turn it back off. Leaving it on does seem to indicate an objective.
James, I don't think we know that Matt left the phone on. (Unless you meant he left it on for it to receive that text, which sometimes takes a minute or so.) In fact, we may have some evidence that his phone was either off or out of range after he received that text at 2:53am. Namely, it says on the timeline that the phone was called three times later that day -- only one time is given, 2:48pm -- but that no longitude/latitude are given for those calls -- the only address given is that of the main cell tower in Mammoth Lakes -- and the police said that was because the phone was off or had no signal.
(Ron, when you said you could see from the phone bill when the phone was turned on or off, did you mean you could actually see that info? I thought you meant that you could infer the approximate times the phone was turned on and off by noting the time-stamps of calls and texts that were sent or received.)
I gather that Matt's campsite was near the edge of the campground -- maybe on purpose, because it would be quieter there? But I think an attack would be noticeable even there. Also, if an attacker's motive was theft, why would they take only one of the ice axes and not the helmet? Though I have no idea why Matt turned on his phone so early, the items that were missing point to a coherent and reasonable objective: a climb involving possible snow.
As SplitPants pointed out, after turning the phone on for whatever reason, Matt might have gone back to sleep. If he did so, and then turned the phone on again briefly when he got up again, I don't think that would be on the bill unless he got calls or texts during that time later in the morning...
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tdg119
Social climber
Northampton, PA
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Corret LA - "infer the approximate times the phone was turned on and off by noting the time-stamps of calls and texts that were sent or received"
LA you said "an attack would be noticeable even there" Do you mean someone would hear screams for help etc?
My suspicion IF it was an attack it was not random, but deliberate. Like 99% of all murders. - by someone he knows, with a motive.
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kenish
Gym climber
Orange County, CA
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The phone being on at 2.53am PT is the biggest, most obvious, undisputable Giant Red Flag slapping us in the face we have.
AFAIK there's been no further effort to localize the 0253 text. Somehow, misinformation is out that phone location is only available from calls and not texts. Calls and text use the same wireless "container" and location info is no different in either case. (There may different legal processes involved to obtain the info).
Early on I commented that the Verizon logs show the 0253 text location as north of the cell site atop Mammoth Mountain; the town and campground are east. Maybe I misinterpreted the log. If not, important info is being set aside.(Not trying to be right...but based on the posts that followed, it's been puzzling that it hasn't been pursued any further). Since time and expense are required for a search warrant and for Verizon to retrieve the information, the family ought to use an alternate process such as a court order.
IMO an abduction followed by elaborate evidence-hiding is very unlikely (of course not impossible). Targets of a well-rehearsed crime have an item or knowledge of great value to the attacker(s). If foul play happened in the campground it would be someone looking for booze, drug, or gas money at random, and a scuffle would get lots of attention in the crowded campground. The campground is in ML city limits and the MLPD are actively investigating, I would assume they have ruled out foul play at the campground.
My understanding of SAR is no clue is ever ruled out...but with limited resources, the most likely scenarios require and receive the most attention.
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LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
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Tiffany or Ron said:
LA you said "an attack would be noticeable even there" Do you mean someone would hear screams for help etc?
Yes, I mean someone would probably have heard screams for help. And even if they didn't, an attacker would have to have removed the body, which generally leaves evidence (blood, drag marks). But there was no blood found in or on the tent, right? Matt's clothes were still neatly folded, which is unlikely after a fight (unless the attacker folded them, which would have taken time and isn't usually characteristic of an attack).
My suspicion IF it was an attack it was not random, but deliberate. Like 99% of all murders. - by someone he knows, with a motive.
Well, maybe, but did Matt have any enemies? It sure doesn't sound that way.
In the unlikely circumstance that foul play was involved, robbery might have been a motive. But it's unlikely that a robber would know enough to take the big pack, Sportivas, ice axe, and crampons while leaving one ice axe and the helmet (and maybe some other climbing stuff) to make it look like Matt was going for an objective involving snow but not rock climbing. It's unlikely a thief would have left such a coherent collection of items by accident -- only a fellow climber would know to do that. A fellow climber who was a thief wouldn't be able to use the gear because others would recognize it. I guess such a climber/thief could sell it, but what climber would murder someone for a few pieces of gear??
While in general I think foul play is unlikely, I think it might become a bit more likely during a ride with someone Matt didn't know (whether a prearranged ride or someone Matt might have hitched a ride with a little later in the morning). At least then the gear would have been selected by Matt for a reasonable objective. Or Matt could have been hit by a car when walking along a road in the pr-dawn hours. (Onyourleft has checked the most likely road for that, but of course that doesn't rule it out.) But it still seems to me that a climbing accident is more likely.
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tdg119
Social climber
Northampton, PA
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Early on I commented that the Verizon logs show the 0253 text location as north of the cell site atop Mammoth Mountain; the town and campground are east.
- Kernish where are you getting these logs. The info I have doesnt show text locations
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pacarockhound
Social climber
Escondido CA
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Ron, Tiffany, etc. Would it be possible to post as an attachment the original or a revision of flyer that is posted in Mammoth Lakes so that readers can forward it on to their friends who may be going to Mammoth Lakes area?
My heart and prayers are with you.
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tdg119
Social climber
Northampton, PA
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SplitPants
Social climber
LA
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All,
This is the call/text detail I have for the 16th and 17th (Tiffany let me know if I copy/pasted something wrong).
7/16 11:12 AM EDT / 8:12 AM PDT 1 Peak -- (voicemail)
7/16 6:00 PM EDT / 3:00 PM PDT Text Sent
7/16 6:06 PM EDT / 3:06 PM PDT 24 Peak -- (parents)
From 8:12 AM to 3:06 PM cell phone registered:
Lat 37.638167 Lon -118.961611, 1601 Meridian Blvd, Mammoth Lakes, Ca.
Directly south of the library. Directly north a mile or two from where Matt was camping.
7/16 7:29 PM EDT / 4:29 PM PDT 1 Peak -- (repair shop)
7/16 7:35 PM EDT / 4:35 PM DPT 2 Peak -- (repair shop)
From 4:29 PM to 4:35 PM cell phone registered:
Lat 37.630528 Lon -119.033078, 5920 Minaret Rd, Mammoth Lakes, Ca, top of Mammoth Mtn. After examination/discussing with SAR and looking at the Azimuth (deg) per the ping, it was determined Matt "possibly" called from the Main Lodge or anywhere in that direction.
This is the last phone call from Matt’s phone (per MLPD no more pings after the 16th of July at 4:35 pm)
7/16 7:40 PM EDT / 4:40 PM PDT Text Sent
7/16 8:57 PM EDT / 5:57 PM PDT Text Received
7/16 9:13 PM EDT / 6:13 PM PDT Text Sent
7/16 10:38 PM EDT / 7:38 PM PDT Text Received
7/16 10:52 PM EDT / 7:52 PM PDT Text Received
7/16 11:09 PM EDT / 8:09 PM PDT Text Sent
7/16 11:34 PM EDT / 8:34 PM PDT Text Received
Per MLPD Verizon re: text message retrieval. Verizon only holds that information for about 3 to 4 days.
Per Verizon too much time has passed by.
July 17th (Wednesday)
07/17 5:53 AM EDT / 2:53 AM PDT Text Received
Family traced who sent that last txt message and made contact but unfortunately the individual does not remember what he'd said and it's no longer on his phone.
Per MLPD: 2:48 pm, July 17, 2013, 39 Pinecrest, Mammoth Lakes, Ca, Verizon building and tower.This address is the main Verizon building/tower in Mammoth Lakes. There is no outbound phone call activity after the 16th of July, as indicated on my Verizon emergency request re: Greene’s cell phone, his phone was turned off/powered off.
The 2:48 pm is not a ping, because there is no Lat & Lon indicated.
Per MLPD: Verizon nor any other cellular service provider ping text, it pings the telephone when the telephone is on, not turned off.
Per MLPD: There were 3 phone calls to Matt's number on this day and they reverted back to the main Verizon tower on Pinecrest.
Per MLPD: From July 17, 2013 to July 30, 2013, 39 Pinecrest, Mammoth Lakes, Ca
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letterfromthesky
climber
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put yourself there...Its 3am, its mid-week (quite), the people to the left and right of you are gone. No one is nearby. Someone attacks him, grabs his body and gear, tring to dispose of the evidence or make it look like a hiking accident or grabing the easist thing of value.
I am going to preface this as a non-climber/non-hiker/major indoor girl, so I am well aware that anything I contribute should be taken with a salt lick. However, I've been following this thread for the better part of two weeks now, and the discussions today really hit me.
If it was a robbery, why would they even bother with Matt's phone? I have a similar, low tech phone, and there is no value to it. I don't even think it retails for 30 dollars. I wouldn't see anyone bothering with it. It is essentially worthless, and not being a smartphone, there would be no personal data (charge card numbers, bank numbers, email, ect) to steal and set up an identity fraud. This to me would rule out that it was anyone but Matt turning on the phone. I would think that a thief would leave it alone.
The same thing for the equipment. If it was a random attack, how would they know what to take to get the most value? If you put a whole bunch of hiking and camping equipment in front of me, I'd be hard pressed to pick the most valuable. I could guess what would be the most expensive, but in terms of what would be easiest to sell off for a quick buck... no clue. Between that and none of his equipment showing up any pawn/resell stores, I would rule out a random foul play situation. If it someone who knew what they were doing and was trying to set a scene, then I have no clue.
As far as the early morning text goes, if he was looking for the person who was going to be giving him a ride, wouldn't there be another text/phone call? Something along the line "Hey, I am here." or "Running late" or "See you soon." from either of the parties? Or was that not Matt's style? I am an over communicator, so it would be characteristic for me do something like that, but I don't know if it would be in line with Matt.
(Do we know who sent that last text and at what time? For instance was it really sent at 3a, or was it sent sometime the previous evening and was received when the phone was turned on? My apologies if this has been gone over a million times... I've read and read this thread, but the one time I post I'm drawing a blank!)
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tdg119
Social climber
Northampton, PA
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Fact. More people have been murdered in Yosemite then killed by mt lions, bears, snakes combined.
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SplitPants
Social climber
LA
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Thought the family/friends would like to know that Todd went up to Mammoth. He just checked into the same campsite, space #161.
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LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
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SplitPants,
That's great -- Todd can get a feel for the campground, and I think he said he might hike to Agnew Meadows so he could search on the way.
(BTW, I thought Matt was in campsite #164. But even if that's so, it's right next door...)
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WBraun
climber
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You folks are doing some great detective work.
"The phone was turned off"
In order for a phone to be really turned off it has to be actually powered off or battery removed not just the lid closed or wait for the screen to go off.
You'll know when your phone is really actually off by having to power it back up manually and you'll see it reboot into it's operating system.
Normally a phone just goes to sleep and wakes every so many milliseconds without the screen turning on to check for a a call.
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tdg119
Social climber
Northampton, PA
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Wb, read the previous posts or call Verizon.
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SplitPants
Social climber
LA
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WBraun
"The phone was turned off"
In order for a phone to be really turned off it has to be actually powered off or battery removed not just the lid closed or wait for the screen to go off.
I believe we are all saying the same thing............the phone was off as in completely off short of taking the battery out.
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WBraun
climber
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I don't need Verizon and I read the posts.
I was explaining how a phone actually works.
Some do not actually understand the difference between actual off and on regarding a digital phone.
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WBraun
climber
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OK ..... so you are 100% sure he powered it completely off?
Thanks ......
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tdg119
Social climber
Northampton, PA
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WB, considering he was camping, with no way to charge his phone, to conserve battery...yes we are 100% sure. We also compared texts sent from his friends to when he received them as explained in previous post and again confirm, text sent to him show up later ( once his phone is on). -Ron
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WBraun
climber
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Yes .... I assumed the same.
Thanks again.
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tdg119
Social climber
Northampton, PA
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Just curious Is the fire currently effecting air quality in the area? - Ron
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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The wind is blowing and it seems like the smoke is thinking about moving back down to mammoth sorta like the local forecaster predicted....
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SplitPants
Social climber
LA
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The wind is blowing and it seems like the smoke is thinking about moving back down to mammoth sorta like the local forecaster predicted....
Oh joy:( We are leaving to head up shortly. Guess I better bring an extra inhaler:(
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tdg119
Social climber
Northampton, PA
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I ask because if I remember correctly there was a fire when Matt when missing. The conditions were similar where smoke filled the area. -Ron
Be safe split.
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SplitPants
Social climber
LA
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Ron,
Yes I remember that fire. I heard the smoke was really bad in Mammoth.
Thanks we will :)
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CyDuke
climber
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Have to side with Cragman here about assault/murder scenario. Seems unlikely a random attack would occur in a campground in the middle of the night without motive. Yes, there are psychos in this world and it could happen, but what's the motive? Doesn't seem like Matt carried a whole lot of cash since he used his credit card for most purchases. Nothing but backpack with boots, crampons, ice ax is missing. His credit card was not used elsewhere. Unless he made an enemy out there, which seems very unlikely, I don't think he was the victim of assault in the campground. A ride with someone shady, now this is more possible. Still I think unlikely.
Phone coming on at that hour is definitely out of character and could be quite significant. But, I think if he turned on his phone because he was in some sort of trouble, why would he have shut the phone back off? Any calls later in the day of the 17th (and subsequent calls) were not "delivered," indicating his phone was off. Possible phone went dead, but if he was at the library that day, he probably put a pretty good charge on the phone and was careful about turning it on and off to save battery. So, if he were in trouble, why turn the phone back off?
Something I haven't seen on here (and I may have missed it) is did Matt use an alarm to wake up? Being a teacher, having to get up early, he may have maintained his school schedule and woke up each day on his own accord, by his own internal clock. But, if an alarm clock of some sort was with his belongings, wonder if the last alarm time was set just before 3am?
Seems to me finding a ride at that hour of the morning is unlikely unless the ride was going to also be his hiking partner for the day, which seems obviously unlikely since no one has came forward and reported either being with him or an accident on the hike. I believe where ever Matt went, he went alone, on foot.
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tdg119
Social climber
Northampton, PA
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need your opinion - would it be of any value to send up ed in the helo with a pair of immage stabalizing binoculars?
`Ron
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tdg119
Social climber
Northampton, PA
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Thanks thats what i thought.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Cragman
Well said. ^^^^^
I've been re-thinking (again) Matt's likely objectives.
Consider what we know:
---Matt had boots, crampons and ice axe.
Ergo he clearly intended some at least moderately difficult snow travel.
---Matt had climbed the Rock Route on one of the North ribs on Clyde. We don't know which route he descended.
---Matt had climbed Riegelhuth Minaret.
ergo: Matt had very good views down on the terrain of all the southern Minarets.
---Matt planned to pick up his car and leave the next day.
I (and many others) have been guessing Matt would have had a major objective, for Matt a big day.
Let's suppose a moment Matt had a lesser objective in mind.
From South Notch (axe and crampons recommended), Matt could have the following moderate 4th class objectives:
Southwest side of Ken Minaret (on north side of South Notch)
NW side of Kehrlein Minaret (on south side of South Notch)
Or a short distance further south the NW slopes of Starr Minaret.
All of these routes are 4th class
Another, more difficult but reasonable objective:
Ken/Clyde Couloir, between Clyde on the north and Ken Minarets. 4th class. This narrow east facing couloir almost certainly contained snow and ice and is directly above Cecile Lake.
There's a 4th class rib from near the top of this couloir to the summit of Ken Minaret
Or from the top of the couloir, the west ridge of Clyde can be reached and followed to the summits of EITHER Eichorn or Clyde.
The Ken/Clyde couloir is sometimes used for descent from Clyde/Eichorn
Matt could have seen all these objectives and routes from the summit of Clyde.
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granite_girl
Trad climber
Oakland
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Re: The Ken/Clyde couloir.
We used that as our descent route from Clyde on Labor Day weekend. The couloir had no snow or ice at all. We saw no signs of Matt. We did descend in the dark, so we didn't have the best visibility, but it's not a very wide couloir, so I'd say it's unlikely that we would have missed him completely. Without snow or ice, and with at least one mandatory rap, the couloir would be an unlikely choice to climb up. It's definitely more of a descent route, and really only useful for someone topping out on Clyde and camping at Lake Cecile.
I'd say it's unlikely that Matt would have brought ice axe and boots for an attempt on the Ken/Clyde couloir.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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granite_girl
great up to date report on the Ken/Clyde couloir conditions. Thanks!
We should add Ken/Clyde couloir to list of searched routes.
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tdg119
Social climber
Northampton, PA
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Mguzzy - here is a summary Tiffany put together. she is working on adding more detail. ~ron
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Alpineholydog
Trad climber
Spring Tx
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Just Returned from Trip through Mammoth. We took Mammoth Taxi up to Agnew Meadows and again noticed how very narrow the road from Mineret Summit to Agnew Meadows is. It would be best searched by hiking and examining the downhill side closely. Lots of brush that could easily obscure things. I think if he hiked to Agnew he had to take this road. If he hiked to Reds Meadow he would have taken the trail.
We hiked up River Trail to Garnet Lake (north side) through Whitebark Pass and explored all approaches up to the East Banner/Ritter Notch from Nydiver.(went to the bottom of the east snowfield) We tried to look as closely as we could with binoculars all the fall lines that could be seen from Nydiver area. We also searched all around the 3 Nydiver lakes and all of the little area benches around Nydiver. Also searched approach to Nydiver from Shadow Lake trail. Also looked at 2 unnamed approaches to Nydiver slightly to east of Whitebark Pass. It was doubtful he would have gone there but wanted to look a bit off the beaten path.
Wish we could have searched further. Matt was on our minds the whole trip and every hiker we passed knew to keep an eye out for any sign of Matt.
Most of all Matt's family was in our thoughts.
Just a peaceful moment from 9/4 (just wind/water not any thunder)
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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Alpineholydog
Trad climber
Spring Tx
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Does anyone know what Satellite views Apple uses for their maps? They are more helpful in that they show the area in summer conditions not the winter conditions that google shows.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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With Google Earth you can scroll back to any images they've got. I'm using an Oct 2008 that has the least snow cover I can find. Similar to what Tom Cochrane's images show.
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Sonoma Jack
Social climber
Sonoma, ca
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Does anyone else here find it in the slightest bit peculiar that a person is up before 6am and texting a person who is 2000 miles away, yet has no recalection on what was said or why he was texting Matt at 3:30 in the morning PST? Was there a texting history between these two, that is were they randomly texting each other back and forth? Did he butt dial/text him on accident? Does anyone know the actual time the person sent the text, vs. the time Matt received the text when he turned the phone on.
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LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
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SplitPants, thanks for your hard work and your progress report...
Kelly, thanks for your work on the map!
Alpineholydog, thanks for your searching and the cool video!
Cragman and HighTraverse, thanks for your thoughts!
HighTraverse said:
From South Notch (axe and crampons recommended), Matt could have the following moderate 4th class objectives:
Southwest side of Ken Minaret (on north side of South Notch)
NW side of Kehrlein Minaret (on south side of South Notch)
Or a short distance further south the NW slopes of Starr Minaret.
HighTraverse, these sound like interesting possibilities which I gather haven't had a search yet.
-Just to confirm, are you saying that for a careful person climbing alone, these routes would be fine without a helmet? (I remember y’all saying something about falling rock t the Minarets but I think you said easier routes were okay.)
-Also, is the most likely trailhead for these routes Agnew Meadows, or would Red’s Meadow or other traiheads be possible/likely?
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LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
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Sonoma Jack, I don’t think the 7/17 2:53am text (I think it was from someone associated with a climbing gym in Pennsylvania) had to have been sent at the time it appears on the bill. As you suggest, if it was sent the night before, I think it would show up on the phone bill as received whenever the phone was turned on.
While it is a little odd the person doesn’t remember sending the text, if that person texts a lot, it might not be that strange. Also, if Matt had been texting back and forth with the person the night before, this could just be the last text in the conversation – something like “Thanks!” or “Okay, good,” sent after Matt turned off the phone and not received until he turned it on at 2:53am.
MGuzzy, as was briefly mentioned upthread and as implied in Ron and Tiffany's handy summary, the phone bill doesn’t show when the phone was turned on or off, but one can tell some times it was on from the timestamps of calls or texts sent or received.
So, I think the unusual thing is that Mat turned the phone on at that hour, not that he received the text. But note that if he hadn’t received the text, we wouldn’t know that he turned on the phone. So while we don’t have evidence for Matt turning on the phone in the middle of the night, he might actually also have done so on other days. As long as he didn’t receive or send a text, check voicemail, or make a call, we would not know he had turned on the phone. On the days that Tiffany’s summary shows no phone activity before the evening, Matt could have turned the phone on several times and we wouldn’t know it.
I still think it's an important question why he turned the phone on so early that particular morning.
I did notice from the phone log that Split Pants posted that on the previous day (7/16), that whereas Matt made some mid-afternoon calls from near the library, his 4:29pm and 4:35pm calls to the repair shop were made from the direction of Mammoth Mountain, perhaps near the Main Lodge. This is very speculative, but I wonder if he was arranging with a Mammoth Mountain employee or someone else at the lodge for a ride somewhere the following morning...
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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are you saying that for a careful person climbing alone, these routes would be fine without a helmet? Two purposes of a climbing helmet:
Keep your head off the rocks in case of a fall and keep the falling rocks off your head.
From what I've read of Matt, he likely would have meant to take a helmet regardless of his climbing objective. I am assuming (reasonable assumption) that he forgot his helmet and by the time he discovered it decided to carry on regardless (see the discussion a couple of days ago). I would carry on and several other experienced climbers have said the same.
But more to your question:
South Notch itself, Kehrlein and Starr can all be done "safely" sans helmet. With axe and crampons, chance of taking a big fall on South Notch is very small. There are "walkup" class 3-4 routes with no snow on Starr, Adams and Kehrlein that also wouldn't turn Matt back if he had no helmet.
In short, I think the lack of helmet should NOT be used to limit likely areas for Matt to go. That would be counter productive. Whereas that equipment list fits the "I'm going to do an easy snow/ice/rock climb" scenario.
What should bound likely search areas?
Areas beyond Matt's one day range. Known to be substantial.
Routes he'd already climbed (not necessarily the peaks themselves).
Routes not requiring ice axe and crampons, at least for the approach. He wouldn't take them if he didn't intend to use them.
The remaining area encompasses most of the eastern escarpment of the Minarets and Ritter and above Deadhorse, Beck Lakes, Minaret, Cecile, Iceberg and Ediza lakes.
Also a small section of the south and west sides of the Minarets accessed by South Notch; as far west as the southwest slopes of Adams.
When considering use of crampons, you should be aware that the hardness (danger) of ice and snow vary greatly with time of day and sun exposure. What is firm ice/snow at 6 AM and requiring axe and crampons would likely be soft gooey snow in the afternoon where you still don't want to take your crampons off (see Cragman's cogent explanation next post). The snow turns to ice again soon after the sun has dropped behind the peaks. Which would be early afternoon in most snowy places in the Minarets.
Matt had enough experience to know all this.
One other possibility I mentioned early on is that Matt ascended from the east, via snow/ice, to one of the many saddles/cols on the spine from Banner to Kehrlein and then toppled and fell down the West (far side).
(I personally know of two highly competent climbers who lost their climbing pack down the back side of a 6500 meter elevation ridge in China. They were very lucky to survive.) It happens.
EDIT to correct proper crampon usage in soft snow.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Cragman
Yes, that's what I meant. Sorry I didn't make it clear. Or put another way, just because the snow would be soft midday for the descent from South Notch to Cecile Lake, you would likely still experience firm snow or ice in the morning for the ascent.
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LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
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HighTraverse and Cragman,
Thanks for the clarifications!
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monolith
climber
SF bay area
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The text could have been sent shortly after Matt turned off his phone the night before, then finally delivered when the phone went back on.
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CyDuke
climber
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Has it ever been determined what time the sender of the 2:53am text sent the text? I know he cannot remember what he said, but does he recall what time he sent it? Or can he check his phone records. On his end, it may show when he sent it, not when Matt received it.
It could be important - because maybe the message was sent at 5:53am PA time which is not unreasonable for someone that might be up getting ready for work. He may have assumed Matt's phone would be off but would get the message when he turned the phone on. If this is the case, then maybe Matt fell asleep prior to turning his phone off and got the message in real time. He could have shut the phone off at that point. And that could make a difference in the assumption that he got up early either for a ride or a long day somewhere on foot.
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CyDuke
climber
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If he still got his account he can see the time he sent that message.
He could probably even call his provider and get the info. They probably won't have the content of text, but they should be able to give the time it was sent. Might be important to know.
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LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
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Cyduke and Tioga,
Interesting speculations. Earlier in the thread, Tiffany said:
Text @ 2:53 am most likely one from previous night but Matt's phone was off so when he turned it on he rec'd it. Best guess is he'd complained about ppl packing early am (4am) and it waking him up; maybe the case?! The last text was from an older fellow from a climbing gym here in PA; he can't remember what it was but probably insignificant and not warranting a response.
Jill, John, Tiffany, Ron:
Do you happen to know whether Matt wore a watch and/or used an alarm when on climbing trips?
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kenish
Gym climber
Orange County, CA
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tdg119- Kenish where are you getting these logs. The info I have doesnt show text locations
The 253am text was north of a tower on Mammoth Mtn. This info is stated in the very original post...I also recall some Verizon info posted to a different website before this thread started, and it showed the north direction.
If that is indeed true, it indicates the Main Lodge area. (The campground is east of Mammoth Mtn.) FYI, I have a smartphone on Verizon. Coverage in town and anywhere on the front side of the ski area (north of the peak) is "3 bars" or better. (Texts are transmitted with cellular voice data, and not on the 3G/4G signal).
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onyourleft
climber
Smog Angeles
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Alpineholydog wrote:
Just Returned from Trip through Mammoth. We took Mammoth Taxi up to Agnew Meadows and again noticed how very narrow the road from Mineret Summit to Agnew Meadows is. It would be best searched by hiking and examining the downhill side closely. Lots of brush that could easily obscure things. I think if he hiked to Agnew he had to take this road.
The following are some cell phone pictures taken on my (slow) road bike ride from Mammoth to Red's Meadow and back on Saturday, 8/31:
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LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
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Kenish, as far as I know, no location was provided for the text message, or for any text message. The "top of Mammoth Mountain" location -- later determined by SAR to be more like in the direction of Mammoth Mountain, perhaps at the Main Lodge -- was for when Matt called the repair shop at 4:29pm and 4:35pm the previous afternoon (7/16). I think there was some initial confusion about this here...
Split Pants posted:
This is the call/text detail I have for the 16th and 17th (Tiffany let me know if I copy/pasted something wrong).
7/16 11:12 AM EDT / 8:12 AM PDT 1 Peak -- (voicemail)
7/16 6:00 PM EDT / 3:00 PM PDT Text Sent
7/16 6:06 PM EDT / 3:06 PM PDT 24 Peak -- (parents)
From 8:12 AM to 3:06 PM cell phone registered:
Lat 37.638167 Lon -118.961611, 1601 Meridian Blvd, Mammoth Lakes, Ca.
Directly south of the library. Directly north a mile or two from where Matt was camping.
7/16 7:29 PM EDT / 4:29 PM PDT 1 Peak -- (repair shop)
7/16 7:35 PM EDT / 4:35 PM DPT 2 Peak -- (repair shop)
From 4:29 PM to 4:35 PM cell phone registered:
Lat 37.630528 Lon -119.033078, 5920 Minaret Rd, Mammoth Lakes, Ca, top of Mammoth Mtn. After examination/discussing with SAR and looking at the Azimuth (deg) per the ping, it was determined Matt "possibly" called from the Main Lodge or anywhere in that direction.
This is the last phone call from Matt’s phone (per MLPD no more pings after the 16th of July at 4:35 pm)
7/16 7:40 PM EDT / 4:40 PM PDT Text Sent
7/16 8:57 PM EDT / 5:57 PM PDT Text Received
7/16 9:13 PM EDT / 6:13 PM PDT Text Sent
7/16 10:38 PM EDT / 7:38 PM PDT Text Received
7/16 10:52 PM EDT / 7:52 PM PDT Text Received
7/16 11:09 PM EDT / 8:09 PM PDT Text Sent
7/16 11:34 PM EDT / 8:34 PM PDT Text Received
Per MLPD Verizon re: text message retrieval. Verizon only holds that information for about 3 to 4 days.
Per Verizon too much time has passed by.
July 17th (Wednesday)
07/17 5:53 AM EDT / 2:53 AM PDT Text Received
Family traced who sent that last txt message and made contact but unfortunately the individual does not remember what he'd said and it's no longer on his phone.
Per MLPD: 2:48 pm, July 17, 2013, 39 Pinecrest, Mammoth Lakes, Ca, Verizon building and tower.This address is the main Verizon building/tower in Mammoth Lakes. There is no outbound phone call activity after the 16th of July, as indicated on my Verizon emergency request re: Greene’s cell phone, his phone was turned off/powered off.
The 2:48 pm is not a ping, because there is no Lat & Lon indicated.
Per MLPD: Verizon nor any other cellular service provider ping text, it pings the telephone when the telephone is on, not turned off.
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Sonoma Jack
Social climber
Sonoma, ca
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"When camping, I often find myself awak in the middle of the night, and out of boredom or curiosity turn the phone on to check email, check the weather forecast, or whatever. A lot of spots on the East Side have cellular data reception."
Yes, true, but as duly stated, Matt had no history, whatsoever, of doing anything like this. You pull a month of records, you would think you would see some kind of pattern. His pattern was, apparently that of being sound asleep at 3am. The cell call here is peculiar, and I'm in no way implying some sort of foul play, as that just doesn't seem likely.
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LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
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Per MLPD: 2:48 pm, July 17, 2013, 39 Pinecrest, Mammoth Lakes, Ca, Verizon building and tower.This address is the main Verizon building/tower in Mammoth Lakes. There is no outbound phone call activity after the 16th of July, as indicated on my Verizon emergency request re: Greene’s cell phone, his phone was turned off/powered off.
The 2:48 pm is not a ping, because there is no Lat & Lon indicated.
So, what does piece of data mean, since it's not a ping?
Tioga, forgive me if I'm just rehashing stuff you know, but as I understand it, a ping means a cell tower sends a signal to a phone and the phone responds. I gather that a cell phone provider can find the location of a cell phone in two ways. If the phone has GPS capability, it uses that to determine where the phone is. If the phone doesn't have GPS, the location of the phone can sometimes be determined by triangulation -- by measuring the relative strength of the cell phone's response to several cell phone towers. (I think we figured out that Matt's phone didn't have GPS but am not sure. Also, the police say that texts don't involve pings, so the exact location of the phone when it received the 2:53am text can't be determined.)
So I think this piece of data just means that someone tried to call Matt on the 17th at 2:48pm, but his phone was either turned off or out of range. So the "location" was given as the location of the cell phone tower that tried to reach the phone, which was the main Verizon tower in Mammoth Lakes. (Given that Matt often turned of his phone to save battery power and probably also was out of range, I don't regard this as very informative.)
The phone bill also says that that was one of three calls that were made to Matt's phone on the 17th, that all reverted to the main cell phone tower. I'm a little curious about the timing of the other two calls, but they wouldn't provide us with much info -- just other moments at which Matt's phone was off or was out of range.
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Sonoma Jack
Social climber
Sonoma, ca
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I'll ad just a couple of observations. My son and brother were hiking the JMT, and were taking a two day break in Mammoth on July 16-17, so this story peaked our curiosity, and I've been following it. Based upon the information collected so far, I believe that the 3am phone Check indicates that Matt was indeed set to travel to a far off destination, which could have lasted more than one day. It seems he knew his car would not be ready until later in the day, or even possibly the following day. He had no job of obligations that put him on a tight schedule. If memory serves, he didn't give his friends an exact ETA on when he'd meet up, but an approximation.
When I picked my son up in Merced after his hike, at the Amtrak Depot, he was with a group of foreign hikers from Chili he befriended in Mammoth. We had a brief conversation in Spanish after my son introduced them. I found it interesting that the highlight of their trip, and their main objective was to summit Mt. Whitney. I'm not saying that this was Matt's plan, but I would think Whitney would be high on the list of foreigner, or East Coast visitor to the high Sierras. It is a destination of many an outside visitor. He could have received a ride to Lone Pine from one of these foreign tourist who were picking up a partner hiking Whitney. the following day, they leave the country, have no clue that he's missing. One other question you might need to ask: Was Matt first and foremost a backpacker/hiker, who also enjoyed climbing, of was he a climber who hiked as a means to achieve his climbing endeavors? The answer to this may help determine his destination. If I were involved in searching for Matt, I would certainly make the drive to Lone Pine and ask around.
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LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
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Tioga, interesting thought, but the log posted by SplitPants says that the MLPD said that Verizon said that Matt's phone was "turned off/powered off" when the 2:48pm call came in and that there hadn't been a ping. :-(
There are good hypotheses here about Matt's possible objective. But I wish there was something -- some technical info, access to Matt's email accounts, a conversation someone had -- that could narrow things down!
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WBraun
climber
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Yes you need something concrete.
Unfortunately mounds of speculations remain just that ......
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LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
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Tioga, you may be right that the phone could have been out of range rather than off. I do think they determined that that the early-morning text was the last actual contact with the phone. (The MLPD summary of the log says that all later incoming calls from July 17th to July 30th reverted to that central Verizon tower in Mammoth Lakes.)
Sonoma Jack, I agree that Matt could have gone further afield if he'd had a ride. From all I've read, he was mostly a climber, though he also did some hiking/running. On the 17th, he didn't have a tent or even a bivvy sack with him, implying he intended to do a day hike. He did have crampons, one ice axe, and Sportiva boots as well as approach shoes, implying that his objective involved snow. (As far as I know, Whitney doesn't have snow in July.)
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Back to possible snow/ice climbing within a day's walk of the trailheads.
We should add the East face of The Watchtower.
See Tom Cochrane's aerial photo and climb2ski's 21 August post 7th down on this page
Just seems like a good smaller day objective for a guy in Mammoth with crampons who is waiting for his car to be fixed.
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=2205815&tn=20
Matt may have intended to just mess around on The Watchtower's large snowfield without making a summit attempt. We know from his activities and 2006 notes that he was attracted to snow and ice.
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CyDuke
climber
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The phone information we have really doesn't provide much in the way of any information on where Matt may have went or where he may be.
I do however believe it is important to find out if the last text message sent to him was at 5:53 am (Eastern time) or if it was sent the night before. This could determine if his phone was already on and he received it in real time or if he did infact turn his phone on at 2:53 am (Pacific time). Either way, it still doesn't indicate where he may have went, but it could indicate that he did get up earlier than usual for a long day somewhere.
There is also alot of assumption being made that he may have gotten a ride. While it's possible, is it really likely at 3am or even up to 4am? And it seems that if had a prearranged ride that early, it also may have been to hike together. No one has come forward as of yet and there is no evidence that he did have a prearranged ride. (No unusual phone numbers on phone bill, no activity on his summitpost message board, no bulletin board notes that we know of). So, based on the lack of evidence of a ride, I think leaving on foot has to be thoroughly examined. Starting at the last known location, which is the campground, is where Matt's steps should be retraced. And based on the assumptions that he went to Banner/Ritter/Minarets, which would be the best route? And would it make sense for him to leave that early and not wait for bus? By this I mean, would leaving on foot put him at the trailhead earlier than the bus? Or was it more important for Matt to just have a "scenic" look on the way to the trailhead so he'd rather leave on foot than wait for the bus? And again, this would be pure speculation (like most everything is), but since there was a lot of concentration, it seems, from the google map, that Matt already spent alot of time hiking/climbing in that direction (west of campground), would he have preferred to go in an opposite direction for a new perspective, perhaps somewhere else that he would get good use of his boots/crampons?
Again, I think the campground has to be the starting point. There are trails that lead off right from the campground that intersect with other ones. Seems those are all easy to hike trails, but there must be some off the well-beaten path trails that would lead to the Ritter/Banner/Minaret area.
I read this on the ST site:
High Sierra Non-Climbing Skills
Technical climbing skills are only a small requirement for High Sierra routes. Routefinding skills, hiking fitness, and general "mountain sense" are just as important. Approaches typically involve at least a few miles of hiking off a main trail. Our High Sierra Climbing guidebook features the most detailed info ever provided for these approaches.
Maybe there is something in the 30 pages of Matt's guide book that could provide insight as to what would be the most likely pathway he used if he headed toward Ritter/Banner. He could be somewhere in between. We don't even know if he ever made it to his destination.
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pacarockhound
Social climber
Escondido CA
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On Your Left ------ I appreciated your photos and your road trip in search of Matt. I wonder if there could be a list of current people searching for Matt today, and where they are, and photos as you did. I have no idea how many people are currently on the ground looking. It was great to see his poster also.
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crankster
Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
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Again, I think the campground has to be the starting point. There are trails that lead off right from the campground that intersect with other ones. Seems those are all easy to hike trails, but there must be some off the well-beaten path trails that would lead to the Ritter/Banner/Minaret area.
It is 10 miles from Shady Rest Campground to the Agnew Meadow trailhead. I don't think anybody would willingly walk this road, especially if they were trying to tag Ritter, Banner or one of the Minaret's in a day. Totally implausible. Even from the trailhead these peaks are a long day, most parties taking 2 days. He either waited for the bus or caught a ride, in my opinion, if he headed to the Ritter Range. Maybe he woke up when his phone went on, spent some time having breakfast and organizing, then headed out closer to 5 am when there might be some early hikers on the road.
There is a very good chance there's someone out there who gave Matt a ride and discussed his objective.
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kenish
Gym climber
Orange County, CA
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Re: the cell phone, LA Hiker's question and Tioga's explanation of location are both good. It would be good to find out whether the call or text to Matt's phone on the afternoon of the 17th was not received, or if the phone was actually on. (Most likely the first one...if a phone is off, incoming calls are routed to the last known site the phone "handshaked" with.
FYI, cell sites constantly send a list of phones in that site back through the cell network. The data is collected at central locations. When a phone is called, the network knows the cell site and call/text data are routed there.
Tioga's explanation of location is good without getting into irrelevant technical detail. Additionally, phone location can be figured out with only one tower but not too precisely. Bearing from the tower is known to about 20 degrees...distance is vague with only 1 tower. There should be a record of the cell tower and direction to Matt's phone at 0253 on the 17th. Also, the person at the PA climbing gym should have a record of when he sent the text. It should show up on his Verizon bill, or Verizon can retrieve it. Either he sent it at 0553 ET, or it was sent a long time before (then Matt turned on his phone at 0253).
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Supermama
Social climber
pa
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Hi all,
Split Pants...thank you for all you are doing!
Cragman...get your toe up and ice it! It will keep the swelling and throbbing down. Feel better!
Everyone...
I've been looking over all that I found on here and Facebook. The chart Tiffany made up of where he was on each day made the dates of July 13, 14 and 15 caught my attention. The last known person to talk to Matt that we know of is Arnold Morales and his family. Here's what was on Facebook:
"I saw him on Friday night 13th. My brother stayed until Monday and is trying to remember." Arnold Morales.
"Me and my family spent the last days before he went missing. We might be able to help. Contact me." Arnold Morales
"I met him during my camping trip to mammoth. He loved to climb he loved to teach he loved his life. I can't believe how life is I am truly sad tonight." Arnold Morales (on his wall)
"Yes Sunday before he disappeared he talked to my son Arnold and showed him in the book where he planned on going . He was waiting for his car to be fixed he said they were giving him the run around." Connie Silva (mother)
"Connie help me! I study chapter 12. If Matt talked to your son about where he was hiking that be a big help. Does your son climb, hike, know the area? Why did Matt talk with him? The missing link for me is the pages Matt took. Very important to determine where Matt started his hike. The memory if what Matt said word for word can help is determine his goals that day." Todd Quinn told Connie. They must have been in communication with each other.
"My sons and family met in(him) at the campgrounds in July he is a very nice fun guy our prayers go out to his family." Connie Silva.
"Connie, let's do this right. I would like to empower you to help find Matt. Both you and your son can sit down in a quiet room early hour. Focus on what made camping fun for the time spent in Mammoth. I would like to send you the names to all the peaks and trails. First read off the names of the peaks to your son, then the trail names. Finally, if your son is visual please let me send you a book or copy of chapter 12. Have your son read it more then once. Thank you, I know it sounds like homework. Thank you," Todd Quinn
"We saw him on Saturday my other son said he saw him Sunday night," Connie Silva.
Then Ethan Culver joins in, "Connie, hopefully your son can say where he told him he was going. Would be nice to know a specific area..."
"Connie...the Sunday before he disappeared? I wonder if Matt's car had broken down at that point or not until after. If so, I wonder if he told anyone where he planned to hike while he waited for his car. Either way, you think his friends who continued on would have been told where he might go. You know, a "Ok, I'm going to wait back for my car and hike [this area] in the meantime, and I'll meet up with you later." I am surprised that I haven't heard anything from those friends he was traveling with." Ethan Culver.
"We are all related to Arnold keep us updated! Please..." Connie Silva.
My interpretation:
They met at the camp ground on Friday, July 13th based on what he said. They said his brother stayed until Monday, July 16th and he was trying to get him to remember. (Doesn't make sense) I am trying to figure out who is brother is or if the mother was referring to her son.
Did anyone get in touch with them other than Facebook? The police would need to know of any other conversations that took place. This could be a critical piece to the investigation since it was his last known location.
Split Pants, I will pm you the more detailed information I was able to find. Please read...it's interesting. Be safe out there!
Supermama
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ß Î Ø T Ç H
Boulder climber
extraordinaire
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Yes, Sunday before he disappeared he talked to my son Arnold and showed him in the book where he planned on going.
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OutdoorGal
Social climber
Lehigh Valley, PA
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That whole Facebook thread Supermama posted better have been read by police before now. They were alerted about it back on August 27th or thereabouts? I have asked multiple times if anything has come of interviews with these witnesses and haven't heard a thing.
Ron/Tiffany, if you are reading this, have you heard whether they were able to be interviewed yet, and if so whether they could provide any clues to guide the investigation?
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tdg119
Social climber
Northampton, PA
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I saw those postings by Arnold and Connie and tried reaching out to them but they haven't replied to anything; possibly because my msgs went to their 'other' folder (a FB thing for msgs from those not on friends list). Also tried reaching out in the thread itself. I have no other contact info so I forwarded the info to Dan Watson who in turn said he'd forward it to the detective. Nothing back yet.
I agree that these two could be crucial to the investigation and their info should be easily attainable from campsite registration records. The 17th when Matt went missing was a Wednesday so if they saw him Monday and he stayed in town Tuesday...any plans he discussed are VITAL to this case.
Also have inquired about who tried calling Matt after the 17th; all we received was a picture of dates/times.
Asked about getting into Matt's other bank accounts to see if there is anything strange or at least nail down times of transactions (considering receipts are gone). No response on that yet. No disrespect intended, but if I could only do all this myself...
I am working to find out if the individual who sent that last text message remembers when he sent it. Hoping he remembers. I know we all think he should remember what he texted and all that but I think I'd be equally guilty of forgetting. Difference is I'm a Techie so my phone would have it.
I'll go back to the thread and make sure I answered all the questions hanging.
I can't thank all of you enough for hanging around trying o solve the mystery.
PS...Matt would be 40 today
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OutdoorGal
Social climber
Lehigh Valley, PA
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Ron and Tiffany,
Thanks for posting your update. Your hearts must be so heavy today, on Matt's 40th birthday. I have a brother who turned 40 in August, and he lives out west (Colorado) and loves mountain pursuits like biking, skiing, and snowboarding. I cannot imagine how distraught I would feel if I were in your shoes. I want so much for there to be a break in the case that can help solve this mystery.
Which is why it is so maddening that Connie Silva and Arnold Morales have not been reached yet. It had not occurred to me that Facebook messages to them might have ended up in that "other" mail folder. I just found out recently that that existed. Another thing is, in looking at their timelines, that they don't seem to be frequent Facebook posters. Maybe they aren't on there too much. I did look today and noticed that Arnold posted something September 6 (a message to his wife, Jeannie Morales). And Connie had posted this message on your map update thread on September 3: "Did they have any news ? Or find Matt this weekend?" I saw that you had replied to that, but there was no response. She may not have seen it.
Do you know for a fact that the detectives have not yet been able to reach them? Here's what we can tell from the Facebook pages: Both Connie and Arnold live in Bakersfield California. Connie's page says she "worked at Walmart." Arnold's says "worked at Nabors Industries." Even with that past-tense wording, they may still work at those companies. The campground should have their contact info. There seem to be multiple ways to track them down.
Regarding the Facebook contact: In case Connie and Arnold have missed your private messages, I might suggest posting a public message on the Find Matthew Greene page that you are trying to reach them. It will go out to everyone who "liked" the page. It appears that Connie has the page "liked," and so does Arnold's wife, Jeannie. (Arnold does not.) Hopefully they would see your plea in their news feeds and try to contact you.
Good luck on this front, and continued well wishes and positive thoughts to all of Matt's family and loved ones....
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SplitPants
Social climber
LA
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Tiffany and Ron
Our thoughts are with you and the rest of the family today.
I sent you a PM call me when you get a chance. I am around for the next 30 min then we are heading out for the day.
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tdg119
Social climber
Northampton, PA
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I tried to "friend"Arnold and sent him a message from my regular account. I reached out to Connie and asked if she could put us in contact with Arnold. He has not responded. He also deleted all of his posts and messages from the facebook page, so it seems he does not want to be involved. -Ron
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OutdoorGal
Social climber
Lehigh Valley, PA
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I was still able to see Arnold's posts on that thread. For some reason, FB has some new system of ordering posts that I can't quite figure out. They are not always in date order anymore, and it's really confusing. I see Arnold's posts in a group with the August 25 date. His messages appear right under a rather lengthy one by Viola Krouse:
Arnold Morales I saw him on friday night 13th. My brother stayed until Monday and is trying to remember.
Like · Reply · 8 · August 25 at 12:30pm via mobile
Arnold Morales Me and my family spent the last days before he went missing. We might be able to help. Contact me.
Like · Reply · 6 · August 25 at 12:23pm via mobile
I would continue to try to reach him and his family in any way possible. Good luck.
ETA: And a big YES to what Cragman said. I cannot believe the police haven't reached these people yet.
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crankster
Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
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Happy birthday, Matt.
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PAUL SOUZA
Trad climber
Central Valley, CA
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OutdoorGal,
You can sort posts by "most recent" or "top comments." It's annoying because it defaults to "top comments."
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SplitPants
Social climber
LA
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FYI. The smoke has moved into Mammoth this morning.(
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Supermama
Social climber
pa
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Hi all,
Outdoorgirl...I have been working on putting together the "Arnold" information for Split Pants for some time. It is crucial that if he does know something that the police handle this in the right manner and we do not try to contact them. His folder is public, so getting into it is not the issue. The mother has deleted all of her posts. We don't want to scare them off.
Ron and Tiffany...I can help you with the subpoena on tech info if you need it...please pm me. As far as contact with Arnold...I would push the issue with the police since they are not responding to you. You are family, so you will have the most impact.
Cragman...I agree...it is crucial that the police move on this with the window of time closing. In fact...this should have been the push since Arnold's first message appeared. I thought the police were looking into this the last time I sent the info to Split Pants and she forwarded it to the police. Time is of the essence.
Split Pants...let me know if you need more than what I sent you. I can keep digging. Ron and Tiffany if you want a copy let me know, I can forward it to you via pm.
Matt...school isn't the same without you. Your colleagues and friends are missing you like crazy. We are all praying for your return. Happy Birthday...
Supermama
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JNCalif
Social climber
Hoboken, NJ by way of Orange County, CA
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If the Mammoth Lakes PD isn't following up on leads in a timely manner, what about going to the Mono County Sheriff? (Apologies if this has already been suggested elsewhere.) Technically, if Matt disappeared outside of city limits, wouldn't it be the Sheriff's jurisdiction? Perhaps they'd be a little faster in following up on the Arnold/Connie Facebook posts.
Cragman, not sure if you've come across a SAR member and police officer (not for MLPD!) in the area named Joe Vetter - he's a straight-up guy and my brother's best friend since elementary school.
Hoping for a birthday miracle and that Matt is found TODAY. Happy birthday, Matt. And to Tiffany, Ron and the rest of Matt's family and friends, keeping you all in my thoughts and prayers.
edited I was unclear above - I mean asking Mono County to be the primary agency, not Mammoth Lakes PD.
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Ikat
Social climber
Carson City
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Thinking of Matthew on his 40th birthday, and thinking about all his family, friends, colleagues, pupils, climbing partners and such.
From my reading here, he comes across as a capable, responsible, considerate, deliberate, and reliable athlete as well as an all around great guy to know.
I wish this bit with the Morales's could be dealt with so they would feel their privacy was not being infringed upon, yet the family, searchers, and LEO could get all information possible from them.
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FRUMY
Trad climber
Bishop,CA
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^^^^
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LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
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Tiffany and Ron,
I’m sorry it's been so hard to contact Arnold and his mother Connie! While Supermama is right that it’s important not to scare them away, OutdoorGal says that she can still see Arnold’s posts – apparently he didn’t delete them after all, but Facebook changed their order. (Which “Find Matthew Greene” post did Morales post under, again?) By the way, I sent you two PMs -- the second more useful than the first -- looks like yet another member of the Morales family also posted on the FB site a couple of weeks ago.
So maybe they aren’t so skittish after all? Hard to tell. I do know it’s easy to overlook messages in your Facebook “other” folder, or even in your regular folder. (For a while you could get to someone’s regular folder by paying $1, but it looks like FB has discontinued that.) The Mammoth Lakes police are very understaffed – I wonder when their part-time detective will get to this.
OutdoorGal points out that because Jeannie Morales and Connie Silva both “liked” the site, a message posted there might appear in their feeds. But that’s only if they left “notifications” on.
On another front, I’m also wondering whether things have moved forward regarding getting into Matt’s email accounts. I know that your attempts to change his password resulted in your getting locked out of his account. (Did you try filling out the questionnaire under “I can’t use any of these options"?) If that didn't work, would it be possible to quickly get a search warrant or subpoena to get into his accounts? (I'm not sure how this works.)
Thinking about Matt, his family, friends, and community on this day...
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pacarockhound
Social climber
Escondido CA
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Rock Mandala Meditation
Saturday, Sept 14th, around 7pm I will be leading a rock mandala creation/meditation in the Heritage Park, across from the Escondido (CA) Art Partnership Gallery at Juniper and Grand. All are welcome to participate and bring a favorite stone, rock, feather, flower, etc. to send healing energy to loved ones or lost ones. I will be focusing on Matt, as well as my dog of 15 years. This is part of the Art & Science Exhibit at the gallery, so there will be visual and spatial exploration, as well as meditation.
Matt, I never met you but feel that I know you. The stones I will be bringing will combine the beauty of Lehigh Valley, PA where we are both from, and California. Happy Birthday!
https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/s403x403/1003389_10201393038642130_2123865993_n.jpg///photo of mini rock mandala
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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This fellow's flicker account has some excellent photos of east sides of Minarets, Ritter and Banner. Especially Ritter and Banner. The end of his journey shows Rim Fire smoke in Tuolumne so we know his trip is after Aug 17. At that time there were still very large snowfields beneath Clyde/Eichorn and on Ritter and Banner.
Pertinent photos are on days 2 and 3. Their camp 2 was below Ediza. Many of the photos are with a very good telephoto.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/dpe4/sets/72157635426781801/
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tdg119
Social climber
Northampton, PA
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Thanks again for everyone's efforts.
I am going to write a formal letter tomorrow requesting search warrants for a few things (Phone, email, etc). I am going to try and even research & draft something to save work for the understaffed PD.
Just an FYI, we Rec'd a statement from Matt's bank that showed his ATM transactions. Not sure which ATM he used in Mammoth Lakes (think the bank could easily answer that; his bank has no branch out there; my mom has access to this account but don't think tracking down video of 2 days prior would do any good). In any case, he withdrew $200 every 6 days like clockwork. His last withdrawal was on the 15th, so at most he'd probably have $150-175 on him; maybe less considering he stayed in town on the 16th.
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LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
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Tiffany,
I'm really glad you're going to request search warrants! One more thought re the Morales family, which probably has occurred to you already:
Could they have been interviewed by the police already? The police said they interviewed a family that was staying in the sites next to Matt's, who I think left on Monday. I think that at least two Morales brothers and their families were staying at the campground and apparently interacted with Matt, and that some left earlier and others left on Monday. So maybe they were the ones who were interviewed? If so, they may feel that they've said it all and not realize they can help a lot by answering a few more questions.
While I'm sure the police found out useful things from whoever they interviewed, they may have focused on other issues than those that now concern us. Whether members of the Morales family were interviewed before or not, it would be great if they could be interviewed now by someone who was very concerned about finding Matt, a good detective, tactful, good at drawing people out, and familiar with Mammoth Lakes, Secor, and climbs in the area -- sort of like you, Sherlock Holmes, SplitPants, Todd, and HighTraverse or Cragman (or others here) all blended into one.
Perhaps some climbers can assist the detective, or maybe the police can encourage Morales family members to talk with private citizens such as yourself, Jill or John, and some other climbers familiar with the area?
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jeg
Social climber
center valley,Pa
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I tried to contact Connie/Arnold three times via PM on facebook. I have asked them to call me but have not heard from them. Jill
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Cragman...The irony...Last i heard the Mono County Sheriff's were patrolling Mammoth Lakes on the night shift because of the austerity measures incurred by the Mammoth bankruptcy...? Whatever..!
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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It's a coin toss Cragman...I don't care who throws the cuffs on me as long as i can spend more time in bridgeport with 3 square meals...RJ
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CyDuke
climber
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Not sure if this link will work. May have to be copied and pasted into browser. It's a .pdf document.
lib.post.ca.gov/Publications/missing.pdf
Interesting stuff about "jurisdiction" in state of California. According to this document, jurisdiction would be assigned both to police/sheriff at Matt's last known location and also to the police/sheriff of Matt's residential address. Possible you can get some help with the warrants, etc through Bethlehem, PA.
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OutdoorGal
Social climber
Lehigh Valley, PA
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I just went on FB and was able to see every one of the original posts from Arnold and Connie. They have not been deleted. As I mentioned earlier, they are ordered in a screwy way. The posts appear to be out of date order, even if you sort by "recent activity" rather than "top comments." I can't figure it out. So it's hard to follow, but all the posts appear to be there. Here is just one example from Connie that I cut and pasted just now:
Connie Silva Yes Sunday before he disappeared he talked to my son Arnold and showed him in the book where he planned on going . He was waiting for his car to b fixed he said they were giving him the run around
Like · Reply · 4 · August 26 at 10:12am via mobile
LAHiker, you asked which thread: It is the one from August 24, where Matt is pictured wearing the white dress shirt, diamond-pattern tie, and glasses.
Supermama, I agree the police (and/or immediate family) should be handling contact with the witnesses, which is why I forwarded all the info I noticed on FB to Chief Watson back around Aug. 27 at the request of another forum member. He had said he was going to forward it to Detective Hornbeck.
I think SplitPants said recently that she asked Det. Hornbeck about the status of reaching Connie and Arnold, and he was going to get back to her. I think her guess was that he wanted to cross-check his notes to see if they were among the people he had already questioned from the campground. Split, did he ever get back to you on this?
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Supermama
Social climber
pa
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Thanks Outdoorgirl...
With it being an ongoing investigation I'm not sure what we are aloud to do or not, so I was just erring on the side of caution. That had been suggested early on in the thread. It is very frustrating to not be able to jump in and help. When I referred to the deleted messages, I meant on Connie's wall. When you go to her wall, they are not there, yet you can see some of the messages Arnold sent on his wall. It could just be a setting. I'm not sure.
The main thing we have to focus on is getting the police to investigate. One of the brothers could have been Carmelo Morales. He is on her friends list on Facebook. Another Morales on Carmelo's friends list is Anthony Morales. They are all friends with Connie and Arnold and all live in Bakersfield, Ca. Definitely worth looking into. Here is Arnold Morale's link to a picture of his camper:
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=473980482668646&set=pb.100001700940476.-2207520000.1378689963.&type=3&theater
Someone in the area may remember them if they see a picture of the camper. They had just purchased it this past winter, according to Arnold's info on Facebook.
CyDuke...thanks for the info. Ron and Tiffany should look into this and see if Bethlehem can help. It can't hurt. They have a much larger police force.
Supermama
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OutdoorGal
Social climber
Lehigh Valley, PA
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Supermama, not sure what you mean about the wall on facebook...do you mean timeline? I post comments all the time on people's threads, and they do not appear on my own timeline as far as I know.
Good work on uncovering the names on the other potential Morales family members via the friends' lists.
And yes, so important to get the police investigating the Silva/Morales family if they haven't already. Time is wasting...
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Dan Watson
climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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This is the first time I've been on in a few days and I will be leaving town tomorrow afternoon for a week. Will someone please PM me with a summary of what is being asked about Morales/Silva so I don't have to filter through all the comments to get the history. I'll see about getting that started before I leave.
As for jurisdiction, what Cragman says is correct. This is technically a MLPD missing because that's the last place he was known to be. He's also correct that the areas identified are in Madera County. Mono County Sheriff's Office overseas the Mono County SAR.
The Sheriffs are not patrolling Mammoth Lakes. The reality is both agencies are short staffed. We only operate 20 hours a day and the Sheriff's Office is dark 6 hours a day. We work cooperatively, but they are not going to take over our investigation. We have followed up on reasonable leads and requests, including interviewing people in the campground, at the auto repair shop, Rite-Aid, Verizon, the found glasses, and others. When I have a summary of what is believed can be learned from Morales/Silva, we'll determine if that's possible.
I know this is frustrating for all. There have been many theories posted on here including recommendations to bring in psychics, analyze dreams, and theories of where he went from well meaning people. We can't search, but will continue to do what we can for appropriate requests.
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ß Î Ø T Ç H
Boulder climber
extraordinaire
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@ tradmanclimbs - That is so rad.
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LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
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Chief Watson,
Thanks for your explanation. I assume that someone in the family or in the core group here will get you that summary of what can be learned from the Silva/Morales family so you can evaluate it tomorrow and act on it if that's what you decide.
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kenish
Gym climber
Orange County, CA
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This is CDMA network phone registration (his older VZ phone was likely on CDMA?)
@Tioga- Verizon is totally CDMA, and their coverage in the Mammoth area is excellent. There would no reason for Matt to roam on a GSM network. As you point out his phone is older so it wouldn't have GSM capability anyway. (FYI for others, there are 2 incompatible cell phone communication standards in the US. CDMA is older, while GSM is newer and in wider use internationally. Verizon is CDMA; AT&T is GSM. Generally, if a phone has a SIM card it's GSM). Also, if Matt's phone was made in 2000 or later it will have location features for e911.
A cell site has 9-12 antennas arranged in a triangle. Each antenna covers a narrow "sector", like panels in an umbrella. There is a record of which antenna(s) received the signal- the phone's bearing from the cell site can be reckoned from the info.
I believe MLPD provided all the phone "breadcrumbs" they could without a search warrant. A paralegal friend (assistant to a PI) recommended the family obtain a court order to force VZW to investigate and disclose more detailed logs, and I forwarded her suggestion last week. Was a court order pursued, or was it deemed too costly or not relevant?
Frustrating as it is, the recommendations to assist and work with MLPD, and not "freelance" are wise. Don't track down and communicate directly with others without MLPD or family consent. People have their reasons to not come forward (that's why anonymous tip lines exist). Questions posed or worded incorrectly can guide people to provide misleading or incorrect info. Worst-case, unofficial contact could interfere with criminal investigations and trials (of course we hope that doesn't come into play). The family and MLPD should decide how to proceed before we post names, dissect their family tree, (admittedly on public webpages) or worse yet, directly contact potential witnesses. My $.02 worth.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Chief Watson..Whatever you do...Don't accept any Persons of the Year awards...RJ
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Todd Quinn
Trad climber
Oceanside, CA
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I camped at Shady Rest Campsite #161 next to Matt’s spot #164. This is what I learned.
The campground is the least respected site in all of Mammoth.
It was clean, good bathrooms no shower.
The noise and light makes it difficult to sleep.
Camp host is on point in making sure you pay. Camp host is up early.
Matt’s Site #164 had a water faucet in front of his campsite. Many visitors would have met Matt because of this.
No information board, only rules and where to pay.
Best showers are across the street at RV Park. Matt would have showered there. Worker believed they recognized Matt.
Where I went to post new flyers
Shell Gas
Subway
Coffee Shop (forgot name)
Ski lodge Main and Canyon
Starbucks, In the Village
Red Meadows Resort
Agnew Meadow trailhead
Devils Postpile
Where I Searched and learned.
Distance from Shady Rest Campsite to Agnew Trail is too far for Matt to do that morning. Hitch hiking before seven o’clock shuttle bus makes little sense. Everything is suggesting Matt left that night to Agnew Trail head to get the early start he needed for (possable) Mount Ritter. I met some solid climbers at the climb shop. One climber Scott told me he free solo Mount Banner in one day. We open the Sierra Book and the same pages where torn free from the book. Scott told me it was a 5.7ish route North Face the book was unhelpful for climbers because it is not a guide book. The book Matt was using is compiled information the author put together. It is a poor example for any climber to use. I felt embarrass not knowing that. Scott stated, "Matt only hope for Ritter was to leave the night before and start early at Agnew Trail. Any gear Matt may have had would have been hung in a tree."
Searched: Shady Rest Campground. Entire area has been searched.
Searched: The start of Agnew Trail head for any hung gear or anything left on the ground. Talked with many hikers entering the area to look for any evidence of Matt and gear.
Searched: the road leading to Agnew Trail steep embankment along road. Trail looks beautiful many people walk solo to the lakes to meet up with other groups. Met no climbers.
Learned: Agnew Trail has no message board. People leave notes on rocks.
Learned: Cell phone works at start of trail. (only) no cell range at Devils Postpile.
Learned: Water creak is at the beginning of the trail.
In conclusion, I’m glad I went to Mammoth my soul feels rested. It was weird to stay at Shady Rest. I was uncomfortable for many reasons that is why I bailed to Twin Lakes. But I did meet an Alpine team from Prescott Arizona. They where training with some students. By chance they where deciding to head to Mount Ritter. I suggested if they did decide Ritter to please report back Supertopo or Facebook. My point is the power of asking goes far. Hikers entering at Agnew trail all gathered around me to listen about Matt’s story. Climbing community is experiencing difficult climbing accidents this year and it hard to process the details. Matt is no different we need details!
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crankster
Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
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I also agree with Cragman about the start time, especially since no bivy gear is missing. This assumes his climbing partners & family are certain on his gear inventory. I personally think he took the shuttle. He would likely have been headed to a 3rd class route, not a more technical line that would have needed a pre-dawn start & would not solo without a helmet.
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Any gear Matt may have had would have been hung in a tree."
???
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Todd:
Nicely done!
Matt doing Ritter from the Agnew Meadows trailhead would have taken him 12 to 13 hours round trip. Even if he took the first shuttle down, he would have been out with daylight to spare I independently came up with similar numbers.
As for the southern Minarets round trip about 10-12 hours from Devil's Postpile to the easier summits.
Cragman: do you have a round trip estimate from Agnew's Meadow to East North Banner slopes? I haven't been up that way so won't make a guess. There were still impressive ice fields up there in late August (per the flickr photos I referenced yesterday).
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LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
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Todd, thanks for everything you did on your trip to Mammoth Lakes -- searching, putting up flyers -- and thanks for your helpful report.
Even if Secor isn't everything, it appears to have been Matt's starting point, so I'm glad you've familiarized yourself with it!
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pacarockhound
Social climber
Escondido CA
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Todd, Ditto!
Thank you for your searching, speaking with people, putting up posters, and for sharing what you learned!
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MelissaSimock
climber
Los Angeles
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Does anyone know if Matt happens to have rescue insurance. There are a few places to purchase it from, such as American Alpine Club membership, Global Rescue Inc., or GEOS Alliance. It would be used to cover SAR costs. Considering how much he climbed, I thought it might be a possibility.
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mattyj
Mountain climber
Truckee
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At this point, there's nothing that rescue insurance would do. The agencies officially responsible for searching for Matt do not bill for their efforts. Rescue insurance isn't going to pay unofficial 3rd parties to ground pound the wilderness in an open-ended search for Matt, as 1) this isn't what it's intended for and 2) an open-ended, paid search would likely spell financial ruin for such funds. Even if there were money available to pay searchers, anyone doing so would have to go through much of the same red tape that guiding companies do, since they'd also be running a high-liability commercial enterprise on public land.
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MelissaSimock
Social climber
Los Angeles
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Ok, good to know. Thanks!
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Todd...did you attend self high...?
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Todd Quinn
Trad climber
Oceanside, CA
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Thank you everyone. Cragman the testimony Scott gave me was helpful because that’s what local climbers do. They get there the night before. As long as you agree it is Agnew trail as the start? For all to agree?
crankster, the gear has bothered me from day one. Every climber has secondary gear I would rather not debate this, because it goes no where with non climbers. One example is the Black Diamond Alpine harness Matt is wearing in a picture. He had two harnesses.
10b4me, sorry let me explain. At the start at Agnew trail there is no bulletin board. Hikers leave paper notes on top of bigger rocks to notify where they went or if they took the shuttle back.
Wade Icey, Once again sorry. Local climbers hang their gear in the trees to keep squirrels from destroying gear. I wasn’t thinking this way until I heard a local talk about it.
HighTraverse thank you, AAC Jeff Deikis got back to me. He has put the call out to members to be on the lookout Matt. Very cool, he further explained AAC member benefits do not cover missing hikers. Even if Matt was a Member they would be limited on what they could do?
Mattyj, I fly under The Good Samaritan Law. Volunteers, industry, community, Alpine schools, anyone willing to help should be encouraged to. But I do get your point. Anyone is free to PM me.
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tdg119
Social climber
Northampton, PA
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Thanks Todd!
I've posted a Plea to Facebook for locals and/or hikers/climbers to help us look before snow falls. I've gotten a few responses but I could use some help directing them WHERE to search.
So far, people that could do a couple miles in and that's it. Hey, I'll take it. Please help me determine some easier routes to cross off our map.
If possible, establishing maybe some easy, middle, and tougher/longer routes would help as volunteers come forward.
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Supermama
Social climber
pa
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Todd...
Thank you from the east coast! You have no idea how much it means to everyone here who can not get to Yosemite to help.
Everyone...
Our school has suffered another tragic loss today. A 46 year old middle school teacher died yesterday, leaving behind 3 children and her husband. Our community is in a state of shock. The students are still hopeful Matt will return and are mourning the loss of one of their favorite middle school teachers.
Anything anyone can do means so much:) All of you are our only hope in finding Matt.
Supermama
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tdg119
Social climber
Northampton, PA
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So sorry Supermama; had not seen nothing on the news. So sad; will say a prayer for the family.
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pacarockhound
Social climber
Escondido CA
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Does the Appalachian Mountain Club have any connections or people in Mammoth Lakes? Have they been contacted? Maybe because Matt grew up in the shadows of the Appalachians....(Blue Mountains my father used to call them) they would help.
Also - was Anderson Cooper ever contacted?
Can the Bethlehem PA police help expedite the search process?
And, my last idea of the day, has Robert Redford been contacted??
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SplitPants
Social climber
LA
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Tiffany/Ron,
Perhaps some of the groups that can help search are those listed on page 34 of the Secor book. I "think" I may have emailed you these pages, if not let me know and I can scan and send.
HighTraverse/Cragman/All
Anyway to come up with a list and label by effort?
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tdg119
Social climber
Northampton, PA
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Did not reach out o Applalachian club. can certainly give it a go.
Don't think we tried Anderson Cooper; hounded Nancy Grace to no avail.
I'm in process of opening the official missing persons case in PA; should know hotly what they can/cannot do for us.
No on Robert Redford.
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mattyj
Mountain climber
Truckee
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Todd, I'm sorry and don't want to sound argumentative but your post is full of misleading information that feels like it's presented more as fact than "this is what some dude shopping at Mammoth Mountaineering told me".
that’s what local climbers do. They get there the night before.
It's a 20 minute drive from town; the only point of bivvying would be if someone needed an alpine start and couldn't bum a ride. Starting at 7AM and making it back before nightfall isn't something most people could do, but it's hardly unheard of. Also while June Lake is up the road a little from Mammoth, people like Cragman probably still have a good idea what "local" climbers are up to.
Hikers leave paper notes on top of bigger rocks to notify where they went or if they took the shuttle back.
For a friend, maybe, but not as a generic heads-up on their trip itinerary in case they don't return.
Local climbers hang their gear in the trees to keep squirrels from destroying gear.
At the base of a multipitch route? Sure. At a trailhead like Agnew it makes no sense.
I fly under The Good Samaritan Law
Which would be relevant if you provided medical care to someone and they later tried to sue you, but doesn't really apply in this context.
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Supermama
Social climber
pa
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Tiffany and Ron,
Thank you for your words of sympathy. It's been really hard on all of us, but especially the students. Here is the link:
http://nazareth.patch.com/groups/schools/p/nazareth-area-middle-school-teacher-dies
I forwarded all of the information to Dan about the last people that we know of to speak with Matt. Also told him about the problem you were having getting into Matt's web mail at home and school. He said he was turning it all over to his detective to handle and will be away for the week. Just wanted to let you know in case you were not informed. I hope this helps in some way!
Supermama
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Scragman...Scott is Dave's brother...Doh....!
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10b4me
Ice climber
Soon 2B in Arizona
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Anyway...time for me to take a deep breath and say this.....
This thread, in my opinion, has become a cluster of hypotheticals and opinions by unqualified sources that only lead to diversion from reality.
One cannot walk into a retail store and assume they are going to get the gospel truth from some pinheaded sales person.....and chasing every damn hypothetical that gets posited here is really getting annoying.
Since NO other information is coming forward regarding the information we would all LOVE..i.e. where, when, and from what trailhead did Matt go, we need to do one thing.....STOP all the friggin wordfest and re-hashing ad nauseum.... and get BOOTS on the TALUS where the evidence likely lies!!!
Too many hypothetical Chiefs.....not enough trail pounding warriors.....and time is running out....
I agree one hundred percent.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Split
welcome back
If you look back you see I've added a few more possibilities to the South Notch area.
You should also note that someone posted they had descended the Ken-Clyde couloir so this can be marked as searched.
Yes. I can re-work the word doc I sent you but not till tomorrow night at the earliest
Leaving town 0-dark00 tomorrow
I'll see if I can do it on the return flight tomorrow night.
Cragman.
I'm doing my best to get my client satisfied for a few days running and make time to get out this weekend.
Now back to my regularly scheduled byte bashing
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SplitPants
Social climber
LA
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Hightraverse
Thanks and will do....first I have to get caught up from the past two weeks:). Have lots of posts I need to read through.
Safe travels and lets catch up when we both have time......
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Todd Quinn
Trad climber
Oceanside, CA
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Sep 10, 2013 - 12:04am PT
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Well taken everyone. Respectfully I did not misquote anybody. I make friends in retail stores because I work in a climbing retail store. You have a way in bashing people that have put in the time searching for Matt. Simple I reported on what I experienced and the people I talked with. I believe Scott can be a tremendous value because of his endurance and knowledge. So yeah Cragman go buy him a beer.
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ß Î Ø T Ç H
Boulder climber
extraordinaire
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Sep 10, 2013 - 12:38am PT
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I was sittin' in McDonalds looking across the street (203) at Shady Rest, trying to put myself in his shoes. If you had to start your outing from there with no car - hitching a ride seems a little over-the-top/ desperate. There is a regular shuttle to the lakes basin's trails and Mammoth Pass etc, but nothing that alluring up there name-wise which he seemed to be after. From Shady Rest Campground you'd be looking to get up the hill (free shuttle via 203/ Main St), then transfer to another (pay) shuttle down into the middle fork of the San Joaquin, caught at Mammoth Mountain Inn. As far as physically searching, I only cruised the base of Horseshoe Slabs yesterday (high traffic area) and saw nothing unusual.
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Psilocyborg
climber
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Sep 10, 2013 - 06:06am PT
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Larry Conn, a member of the forum High Sierra Topix disappeared last year in the Taboose Pass area. SAR did their thing and came up with nothing. A few of us at HST got together to search areas we felt were likely. The situation was different, as there was a permit pulled, but like many of us Larry didn't stick to itineraries.
Anyway, we thrashed up and down Goodale Creek, some others check Armstrong canyon and Red Lake....his body turned up....very close to Taboose Pass proper.
Point is the most likely scenario is just that. And just because some areas have been gone over doesn't mean they are clear. I couldn't even begin to guess how many professional searchers walked right by Larrys body and gear, or at least within spitting distance.
Just don't give up!
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KellyDoesntClimb
Social climber
Dunwoody, GA
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Sep 10, 2013 - 09:14am PT
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HighTraverse, thanks for the heads up on the new possibilities and reminder that someone upthread had gone down the Ken-Clyde Couloir. It took me a couple of days to get it all into the map.
Ron/Tiff, I think it will let me export to a spreadsheet. Cragman wanted experienced climbers to focus on the Ritter range, and High Traverse made suggestions for places in the Minarets. Both are for experienced climbers. There are some trails that may not be as hard on the map. Some of the trails have been traveled, but not all.
Map:https://mapsengine.google.com/map/edit?mid=zH95mGu2yK0M.k0POTplcpetE
I really wish I was closer.
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KellyDoesntClimb
Social climber
Dunwoody, GA
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Sep 10, 2013 - 09:18am PT
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Thanks cragman! I figured the Ritter range was just Ritter/Banner, and the Minarets were separate.
Thanks I will make a note on all the trails if they are on the JMT or PCT.
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Supermama
Social climber
pa
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Sep 10, 2013 - 07:00pm PT
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Spoke to the Detective today. He is all over getting releases for emails. Yeah! I'm so glad that ball is rolling. I agree, there could be pertinent information in the emails. I reminded him of how small our window of time is getting with the changing of the seasons.
Supermama
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LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
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Sep 10, 2013 - 07:32pm PT
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Thanks, Supermama! That's encouraging.
I appreciate your boldness and determination.
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tdg119
Social climber
Northampton, PA
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Sep 10, 2013 - 09:06pm PT
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Thanks Supermama!
I have not got much to add tonight, though we did follow up w the individual who sent that last text to Matt and he's certain he sent it the night before which confirms Matt turned his phone on at 2:53am. Doesn't help with much - maybe he checked the time, got up to use the bathroom, went back to bed, got a Start on the day...who knows. The only other thing it does tell us is that it confirms a break in his normal pattern.
We did also get confirmation that the individuals on FB were registered at the campground as stated and the detective has reached out to them. Fingers crossed.
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SplitPants
Social climber
LA
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Sep 10, 2013 - 09:26pm PT
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Tiffany/Ron
That is somewhat good news. You have established a fact......Matt's phone was off and for some unknown reason he turned it on at 2:53 am. Hope they can find something out from the campers at Shadyrest.
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Supermama
Social climber
pa
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Sep 10, 2013 - 10:12pm PT
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Tiffany/Ron...
Anything to help. Let's pray the detective follows through and comes up with some kind of lead.
Split Pants....welcome back!
Supermama
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kenish
Gym climber
Orange County, CA
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Sep 10, 2013 - 11:38pm PT
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Did the garage tell Matt his car would be ready on the 17th, and what time? If they told him the 17th, would Matt be likely to hurry back and get his car before closing time, or the next morning? That might give insight to Matt's mental "timeline" for a last climb, and rule areas in or out. Apologies if this has already been asked or answered.
FYI, I read that Mammoth Lakes' city manager left, and Chief Watson is filling in....so he's got his plate full. No doubt he appreciates the search efforts. Let's hope Matt's emails provide new leads.
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tdg119
Social climber
Northampton, PA
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Sep 11, 2013 - 06:18am PT
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When he spoke to my parents on 16th, it was supposed to be ready on 18th but the Impression he gave my parents was that he expected them to string it out longer since that'd been his experience with them (keep in mind his car was in shop since June 28).
Keep in mind he spoke to the garage AFTER that discussion too so that date could have changed. I honestly don't know what they told him that last time.
FWIW, I think the invoice for the car repair was created the following week.
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Supermama
Social climber
pa
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Sep 11, 2013 - 07:13am PT
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Then there was no hurry to get back to the car until at least the 18th or later and his options were open...
Supermama
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Chief Dan Watson
climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Sep 11, 2013 - 11:13am PT
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Detective Hornbeck previously spoke to the people camping on each side of Matthew. They did not converse with him. He has located contact information for Arnold Morales in Bakersfield and has left a message for him to call.
He also has checked with the Library. During July, there was only one wireless client who accessed summitpost.com. Other sites accessed include mountain project.com, climbing arc.com, and super topo.com. Unfortunately, the Library cannot determine who accessed the sites. They don't check the ID of computer users and have no way of knowing who is online at any given time.
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kenish
Gym climber
Orange County, CA
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Sep 11, 2013 - 12:33pm PT
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Since Matt didn't expect his car to be ready until the 18th, his "timeline" would be dusk on the 17th since the gear inventory doesn't suggest an overnight. On the 17th, sunrise was 0548, sunset was 816pm, and twilight ended at 847p. There was a quarter moon so a flashlight would be required after that. Matt seems like the type who took all that into account in his plans, along with transportation back to the campground.
Something that didn't occur to me is posting to mountain biking forums. Mammoth is crawling with MTB riders during the summer (me included). MTBR.com has a national audience, and the other is So Cal Trailriders. Terrain and laws exclude MTB from the wilderness areas, but a rider may have met Matt in town, on a shuttle bus, or at the campground. I will post a link to the "find Matt" Facebook page on both. There's similar forums for the Bay Area but I don't know the MTB "scene" there...does someone subscribe to one up there or have a friend who can post?
I don't fish, but a post on the appropriate fishing forum(s) might be good...there's quite a bit more presence in the back country compared to mountain bikers.
Hoping that retrieval of Matt's emails provide clues that increase or decrease the probability of different search areas or scenarios.
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LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
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Sep 11, 2013 - 12:44pm PT
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Thanks, Chief Watson, for the update. Looks like I was wrong -- sounds like the Morales family has not been previously interviewed. So I hope they provide lots of useful information!
Thanks for the library information. I did have one question (maybe I or someone else here can contact Detective Hornbeck directly). You say that “there was only one wireless client who accessed summitpost.com.” Do you mean that the library has WiFi and there was only one person who accessed that site using a wireless device such as an iPhone? As far as I know, Matt’s phone did not have internet capability, (please correct me if I'm wrong) so he would have accessed the internet using the library's PCs, not through WiFi. Or do you mean that the PCs in the library connect to the internet through the library’s WiFi and that there was only one person who contacted that site, whether on a PC or through WiFi?
Edit: Apparently though the library also has WiFi, the library's workstations are connected through a wireless network, so that might have been all that was meant.
Also, is it possible to tell what dates people accessed those sites using the PCs at the library? (I had thought that info was lost, but if it's possible to tell which sites were accessed, maybe not...) We know Matt was in the library on the 16th. I think that climbing sites that were accessed in the last days before Matt disappeared, and especially on the 16th, would be of special interest. We know Matt posted something on Summitpost on the 16th, but we don’t know what other sites he looked at, which he might have used to plan his activities on the 17th. Knowing that might help narrow things down.
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LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
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Sep 11, 2013 - 01:33pm PT
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MGuzzy, I agree that it’s important to know that Matt (or someone) turned his phone on at 2:53am on the 17th, and it would be great to know exactly when the text was sent so we know when Matt's phone was off or unreachable.
Looking at Matt's movements on the 16th: According to the phone records, Matt was in town during mid-afternoon (spoke for 24 minutes with his parents, apparently saying the car would be ready on the 18th but that the garage might string it out later).
Then his last communication for which we have a location was on the afternoon of the 16th, when he called the repair shop at 4:29pm (1 minute) and 4:35pm (2 minutes), from the direction of Mammoth Mountain (perhaps from near the main lodge). I wonder what they told him in those brief calls, and whether the person who answered the call could even answer his question. (Maybe to confirm it would be ready on the 18th, or to see if it might actually be done sooner?)
After those calls on the 16th, Matt sent and received texts intermittently between 4:40pm and 8:34pm, apparently with friends in Pennsylvania, and according to Tiffany, everything seemed fine. I had assumed that the final couple of texts sent/received were from his tent, but you’re right that he could have been elsewhere. (Doesn’t seem the type to be into night life, however.)
Finally, while it looks like Matt turned his phone off within a certain range of times each night, our evidence on when he typically turned it on is less clear. As I’ve said before, the only reason we know his phone was on at 2:53am that morning is because it received a text from the night before, which registered at that time. On many other days, the only evidence we have of the phone being on is from late afternoon, yet Matt may well have turned on the phone earlier in the day, or even in the wee hours of the morning. Unless he made or received a call or text, we can’t tell whether his phone was on or off. (Maybe Verizon has more info about this, but we can't tell it from the log we have.)
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LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
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Sep 11, 2013 - 01:58pm PT
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Tioga,
Thanks. Yes, I'd feared that the phone's on/off info would no longer be available.
I have a question regarding the library records. Chief Watson says that Detective Hornbeck checked with the library and found the following:
During July, there was only one wireless client who accessed summitpost.com. Other sites accessed include mountain project.com, climbing arc.com, and super topo.com. Unfortunately, the Library cannot determine who accessed the sites. They don't check the ID of computer users and have no way of knowing who is online at any given time.
What do you think is meant by "wireless client"? Would this mean a library patron using a wireless device such as an iPhone, or do you think it would include access to the internet using the PCs in the library as well as WiFi? Or is it not clear what was meant?
The reason I ask is that as far as I know, Matt's phone didn't have internet access and he was in the library to use the PCs...
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LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
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Sep 11, 2013 - 02:14pm PT
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Thanks, MGuzzy! I just called the library to confirm (and also to find out whether the library has WiFi, for my own info if I go to Mammoth Lakes).
The patient, overworked woman said that the library does have WiFi and confirmed that the PCs are connected by some kind of non-commercially available wireless network, though she implied that wasn't her area.
Because I'd explained why I was calling, she also volunteered that someone had called to try to see if Matt might have printed anything out, but that thousands of people print things out there, so that info would not be easy to find.
She wished us luck.
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kenish
Gym climber
Orange County, CA
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Sep 11, 2013 - 02:25pm PT
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@mguzzy- By "his timeline", I meant the amount of time he had consciously and subconsciously planned for his activity on the 17th. Matt seemed like the type to plan and coordinate around all the variables (daylight, transportation, weather, etc), just like a flight plan when I go flying. Combined with his car not being ready the evening of the 17th means he probably wasn't in a hurry or rush. It also sounds from other people's comments that if his progress was falling short of his plan or nightfall, he'd turn around before rushing ahead to his goal (nicknamed "get-there-itis" in aviation...cause of many accidents). But I'm second guessing someone I don't know, and could be way off-base.
BTW, is your screen name short for Motoguzzi? Cool if it is!
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kenish
Gym climber
Orange County, CA
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Sep 11, 2013 - 02:42pm PT
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@mguzzy- Cool on your screen name. Mine is just a mashup of my first/last names. BTW, I edited my previous post after you responded.
Also, I'm working on posting to the best spot on MTBR.
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kenish
Gym climber
Orange County, CA
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Sep 11, 2013 - 04:27pm PT
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Posted to mtbr.com forums- General, Socal, and Norcal with a link to the FB page, and asked anyone with info to respond on FB. But I will check MTBR for replies, too.
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tdg119
Social climber
Northampton, PA
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Sep 11, 2013 - 05:07pm PT
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@mguzzy & LA – “During July, there was only one wireless client who accessed summitpost.com. Other sites accessed include mountain project.com, climbing arc.com, and super topo.com”.
-so we know Matt accessed summitpost in july from the library, therefore we can confidently say this 1 person was Matt. Correct?
“Unfortunately, the Library cannot determine who accessed the sites. They don't check the ID of computer users and have no way of knowing who is online at any given time.”
This does not matter – because we know that 1 person was Matt.
Therefore, if we cross check that IP address from the library with climbing arc.com, ST, and mountain project we will know what he looked at and may have responded to. Split and me should be able to do this. ~ron
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kenish
Gym climber
Orange County, CA
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Sep 11, 2013 - 05:57pm PT
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^^^ @tdg-
That is probably not a good assumption. The library computers seem to have a hardwired connection; if true, wireless accesses are through personal devices (iPad, smartphone, laptop, etc). Matt didn't own a laptop, and his phone was not a smartphone, correct?
Mammoth Lakes is a hiking, fishing, climbing, running, and cycling destination. Access to outdoor/wilderness websites by the general public is much more likely than at a typical library. Many visitors don't have WiFi access where they are staying, so it's likely they would go to the library for access...Matt being one example.
The accesses to the websites very well could have been Matt...but far from certain.
The idea to ask the website owners to look through their access records is good. There are several complications...most websites have a service "host" their sites. The websites should be contacted first, but may not have easy access to the logs. (Contact them through "about us" or "Contact us"...you can also do a "whois" inquiry to find out the registered owner of any URL). The other issue is the IP address of the library and computers in the library. Depending on how the library and ISP configure and secure their network, the ISP may change every time a new browsing session opens.
Definitely worth pursuing but pointing out some hurdles in the pursuit.
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Supermama
Social climber
pa
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Sep 11, 2013 - 06:06pm PT
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Hi all,
Just got in from work and read posts to get caught up. Couple of things stood out...I agree with Kennish, I don't think he was in a hurry because the car place was not in a hurry to fix his car. He was always on the go like I am, so I would be bored and want to do something....
Tiffany and Ron... aside from climbing and running, did Matt have any other hobbies?
I did check some of the other forums earlier on, but no Matt Greene in any form in the search engine. Did he use a code name? Maybe if we each took a web site to research, it wouldn't be so overwhelming. I spent hours one day looking. One of the sites you couldn't view without a password.
The detective is looking into the emails, however the phone could be subpoenaed as well. That's how they caught my stalker a few years ago. Ron and Tiffany would have to do request that from the police.
Just a thought...if my phone is out of a reception area or off, I do not receive emails until I turn it on or am back in an area of reception. I have a data phone, though.
Let's hope the Morales come through with some information as well. I don't know that we will be privy to the info though.
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Ikat
Social climber
Carson City
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Sep 11, 2013 - 06:47pm PT
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Thanks ex-stzzzo
I had been looking at that Summitpost profile, too.
His post on July 16 is sort of odd. It isn't really pertinent to the geographic area, and it was an old article from 2008. I get the impression of a guy in the library trying to burn off time, not having too much to do.
If I read his profile correctly, he is listing 93 places in the Summit Register list, but none of these appear to be associated with this summer's trip.
There has got to be away to search the Library PC files to see what was being searched for that afternoon. There won't be a hundred people searching. It would take some sort of access priviledge and time. Shoeleather time in the LE world. Unfortunately I'm not currently in the area and have other distant committments, but I'd be willing to search the computer a couple of hours if I could. I'm doing it here at work already.
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kenish
Gym climber
Orange County, CA
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Sep 11, 2013 - 06:50pm PT
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^^^ Stzzo- Sorry, you're correct. I misread the library employee's comments to LA Hiker. So, it may have been from an internal library computer or a personal device brought into the library. It's still uncertain whether it was Matt or someone else.
Usually public access computers log off automatically after just a few minutes of inactivity. That protects against a new user hitting the "back" button to snoop on previous user(s) activity. My local library has signs emphasizing the need to log out. I'd expect the IP addresses to change often..especially if the library uses software to block ads and cookies.
@ikat- I recall a few weeks ago that the library clears out browsing history every evening. That would be expected SOP for public access computers. The drives could be forensically searched because files aren't completely erased, but requires legal intervention and the library allowing removal of the hard drives. 7 weeks have gone by and the chance of latent data still being there diminishes with time. The "erased" data is free disk space available to overwrite new data, and eventually that will happen.
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LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
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Sep 11, 2013 - 07:38pm PT
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Thanks to everyone for your thoughts and expertise. If there's any way we can find out what Matt accessed on the 16th, that would be great. I gather from what people are saying that that may be difficult, so I hope that there's progress in getting access to Matt's email and in interviewing the Morales family.
One caution re my conversation with the library employee. Her response did seem to confirm MGuzzy's interpretation that the library's computers were connected by a wireless network and thus that the "wireless carrier" referred to by Detective Hornbeck could have involved Matt's activity on a PC and not wasn't just someone else coming in there with a laptop or smartphone.
But because I know very little about this area, I didn't know how to confirm it by asking for details or how to probe further about it. The employee was kind of busy and it might not have been her area either. So if further info is needed maybe someone who is more knowlegeable can talk with library people (and especially whoever handles the computers and internet there) under more relaxed conditions. Maybe SplitPants has already done just that.
And maybe Detective Hornbeck can clarify what he thought was meant. Because he's presumably very busy, I wanted to get see if the library could answer my fairly basic question.
I do have a question about this. How did the library tell that someone had accessed those sites? Presumably not by looking at "history" on their PCs, because apparently that's deleted at the end of each day.
Would they looked at or searched a log of all internet connections made by the library? If so, and assuming that the log includes connections made on the PCs and not just by Wifi, could they search it by date and time? If so, maybe they could see if a bunch of mountaineering sites were accessed on July 16th, at around the time Matt was there. Also, if they know that the sites were accessed, would the library's log also have info about which pages were accessed??
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SplitPants
Social climber
LA
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Sep 11, 2013 - 07:56pm PT
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All,
Thanks for all of the info and ideas. We are working on obtaining information from the library network admin. We will know more regarding the follow up/results late Friday. So perhaps we can change the topic to something else like areas to search or something along those lines?
Thanks and keep your fingers crossed:)
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CyDuke
climber
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Sep 11, 2013 - 10:43pm PT
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Don't know if this will be of any benefit, but here is a link to quite a few high res images of the Ritter Range area. Some pics are very close up, other are area scenic shots. There are also a handful of videos. (There are 5 pages of images, the videos are on page 5). These pics were taken a week or two after Matt was last seen, but I am not sure of exact date. Image names say July, but the blog post says August. It was after the fire had started because there are some pictures of the distant smoke.
Anyway, I looked at pictures for any kind of clue, but didn't see anything. But, this may show what the conditions were like at the time. I don't know how much of a difference a week or two could make, maybe not much, maybe a lot. And it also might eliminate some areas that have to be searched on foot??? Not sure, I know there is also a lot in the area that is not captured digitally.
The pics are captivating. Really something. I did not try to make contact with owner of these pictures to see he came across anything unusual (hat, crampons, backpack, etc).
http://hikenhi.smugmug.com/Davids-Hiking-and/Mount-Ritter-July-2013
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kenish
Gym climber
Orange County, CA
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Sep 11, 2013 - 11:22pm PT
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FYI the library has 24 internal computers and public access WiFi. As posted before, presumably Matt would have used their computer since he didn't have his own device. On July 16, a Tuesday, the library was open until 9pm.
http://www.monocolibraries.org/branches/mammoth-lakes
I agree that mining the individual library computers for browsing history is a dead end that's been discussed several times. If the library has a consolidated log of internet traffic or if the various websites make their logs available to family or MLPD, it could contain clues....but "boots on the ground" searches by back country expert volunteers shouldn't wait on that.
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LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
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Sep 12, 2013 - 12:09am PT
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SplitPants, thanks for the update re the library -- sounds promising, knock on wood.
Kenish and MGuzzy, thanks for the info and explanation. It would be great if the router log contains useful info for us...
Cyduke, thanks for the link to the pictures and videos, and thanks for checking them over carefully. Even if there weren't any noticeable clues, the pictures give a good sense of the area and conditions. Some are so detailed, it's almost like being there.
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pacarockhound
Social climber
Escondido CA
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Sep 12, 2013 - 12:57am PT
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Stzzo ---
Couple of odd things about summitpost...
The MattGreene profile page says "Last Active: Sep 11, 2013".
There's a user "MG13" who joined on Jul 16 and has posted only one post: http://www.summitpost.org/users/mg13/107266, http://www.summitpost.org/phpBB3/post929627.html#p929627
re:
I looked at post by MG13 (could be mountain goat or matt greene?)
Could this be helpful info for the search?
Re: Wind River Conditions? ~ Fremont Peak
Postby MG13 » Tue Jul 16, 2013 7:40 pm
Just wondering how your Gannett attempt went and what the snow looked like through the Titcomb/Booney Pass/Gannett area.
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pacarockhound
Social climber
Escondido CA
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Sep 12, 2013 - 01:14am PT
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Emailed Matt's poster to every place in my area I could think of including
Dear Wendy,
We shared it with our 10k+ members. We hope it helps.
Sincerely,
Escondido Downtown Business Association
Is there a similar group in Mammoth Lakes to send Matt's poster to?
Could someone send Matt's poster to horse riding groups who may have seen something or may in the near future?
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LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
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Sep 12, 2013 - 03:06am PT
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Pacarockhound,
Thanks for asking. I think the mattgreene Summitpost account continues to be active because the Summitpost admin people keep poking around in it looking for clues. That's why the Summitpost Admin put a note on Matt's user page saying that his last real login was on July 16th.
Regarding the MG13 account, I bet it does stand for mountain goat, as you suggest, because that's what's in the picture. The MG13 account continues to be active and hence could not have been Matt (though I guess admin people could have been poking around in that account too). Also, Matt already had a Summitpost account -- why would he have created another one? In any event, because the post refers to areas in Wyoming, I suspect it's a coincidence and not relevant to the current search.
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pacarockhound
Social climber
Escondido CA
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Sep 12, 2013 - 03:12am PT
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LA Hiker - it looks like there is Gannett Peak and Wind River at Mammoth, no? Or am I reading the link I posted wrong?
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LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
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Sep 12, 2013 - 03:13am PT
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Pacarockhound,
I think we posted at the same time. It looks like there's a Mammoth Glacier on Gannett Peak, but Gannett Peak is part of the Wind River Range, which is in Wyoming. :(
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pacarockhound
Social climber
Escondido CA
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Sep 12, 2013 - 03:20am PT
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Joe Kelsey, in Climbing and Hiking in the Wind River Mountains (2nd ed., 1994, Chockstone Press, p. 124), mentions the "West Face/South Ridge" as follows: "From Mammoth Glacier several routes have been used to reach the South Ridge near its junction with Gooseneck Ridge. Apparently both prominent couloirs have been ascended. One climb was by 17-year-old Yvon Chouinard, on his first mountain."
This is from the bottom of link I have attached 3 posts earlier. Isn't Mammoth Glacier in Mammoth Lake?
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LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
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Sep 12, 2013 - 03:22am PT
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Pacarockhound,
No, oddly enough. While there are many glaciers in the Ritter Range near Mammoth Lakes, the only U.S. glacier called "Mammoth Glacier" is in Wyoming, as are all the other places mentioned in MG13's post. Try Googling "Mammoth glacier" -- you'll see what I mean. :)
And now I must turn in for the evening.
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pacarockhound
Social climber
Escondido CA
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Sep 12, 2013 - 03:29am PT
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Okay LA Hiker, I stand corrected.....:)
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pacarockhound
Social climber
Escondido CA
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Sep 12, 2013 - 03:59am PT
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Last thought for the night
On the summit.org forum if you go to Matt's profile there is a list of "people who hike the same trails". There are 100 people listed. Make any sense to reach out to them?
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KellyDoesntClimb
Social climber
Dunwoody, GA
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Sep 12, 2013 - 09:45am PT
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CyDuke, thanks for the link to the photos! Stunning! It helps me in my quest to perfect the maps...
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Ikat
Social climber
Carson City
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Sep 12, 2013 - 12:13pm PT
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CYDude
Extremely gorgeous and comprehensive photos. Should be of use to potential searchers.
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CyDuke
climber
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Sep 12, 2013 - 12:19pm PT
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Kelly: Glad it will help out with the maps.
Ikat: Agree. Gorgeous and Comprehensive.
LAHiker: I almost felt like I was there too. Made me wish I was.
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WBraun
climber
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Sep 12, 2013 - 02:13pm PT
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To sum up almost 2000 posts in a nutshell.
You have nothing.
Except a complete mystery and tons of speculations .....
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zBrown
Ice climber
Brujo de La Playa
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Sep 12, 2013 - 02:20pm PT
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I haven't read all the posts, but to be fair, I believe there is the outline of a good (proper?) strategy presented by Cragman.
Many theories are being presented here regarding the various details regarding the phone being turned on early....the missing gear....assaults in campgrounds....LOTS and LOTS of speculation.
My concern with these ideas, many of which seem incredibly outlandish to me, is that they draw focus away from the few things we do know....things that point to the Ritter Range.
Endless speculating about scenarios that seem more like a CSI episode can go on and on ad nauseum, and every time someone hears one that they kinda buy into....they then add some more of THEIR ideas about that scenario....perhaps making it sound even MORE compelling.
In SAR, it's dangerous to take simply what we THINK may have happened, and try to shape it into a fact....instead of taking even the thinnest facts, and pursuing them until they are completely played out.
The search area in the Ritter Range, as I have stated on all the search threads, is VAST and COMPLICATED. Also....time is running extremely short to do more searching of that area.
My recommendation would be for experienced climbers to do ALL within their power to get together and get out in the Ritter Range while we can, rather than post theories based on extremely wild scenarios that are virtually unheard of in this area, or frankly, even impossible.
Peace,
DR
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pacarockhound
Social climber
Escondido CA
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Sep 12, 2013 - 04:08pm PT
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Tioga,
thank you for clarification. I think your list is invaluable, especially at this juncture.
I agree that brainstorming - and this is the beauty of social media - with so many people is what ultimately gets results.
Is there any way to post this thread at the top of forum???
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LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
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Sep 12, 2013 - 04:28pm PT
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Tioga +100
Pacarockhound, the thread naturally rises in the forum when we comment. But I don't think we should comment just to bump it up. The more useful people's posts are, the more others will have the patience to wade through this very long thread, get up to speed, and make a contribution either here or by searching.
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Ikat
Social climber
Carson City
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Sep 12, 2013 - 04:29pm PT
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If they make this a sticky, are you going to include the psychic vision thread, too?
Sorry, but today's visions there were just unrealistic.
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tdg119
Social climber
Northampton, PA
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Sep 12, 2013 - 04:32pm PT
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Sorry to cut in here but is there anyone familiar with the area that can humor me and read the psychic thread to see if they know the geography referenced in what I shared there?
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=2213600&tn=60
For what it's worth, I did talk to the Bethlehem police and I need to head into the station to sign a declaration making Matt's disappearance official in his hometown; something we've yet to do. They told me over the phone they should be able to help in obtaining some of the records we're after.
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Ikat
Social climber
Carson City
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Sep 12, 2013 - 04:35pm PT
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East of the campground puts him 40 miles away on White Mountain. Which isn't white in summer. No need for crampons or ice ax there. This doesn't seem credible to me.
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pacarockhound
Social climber
Escondido CA
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Sep 12, 2013 - 04:48pm PT
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In the vision post it states close to the campground, that he was on his way and hadn't gotten that far. I am also curious about location, and reference to 3 peaks.
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pacarockhound
Social climber
Escondido CA
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Sep 12, 2013 - 06:16pm PT
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Many have mentioned search dogs, but the response is usually trail gone cold, too many places to search, too treacherous for dogs......but I still think dogs are the ultimate searchers....
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WBraun
climber
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Sep 12, 2013 - 06:28pm PT
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but I still think dogs are the ultimate searchers
Without their handlers first they can do nothing for you.
So your "ultimate" is not true at all ......
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pacarockhound
Social climber
Escondido CA
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Sep 12, 2013 - 06:40pm PT
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of course their handlers are included in that statement!
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Supermama
Social climber
pa
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Sep 12, 2013 - 06:53pm PT
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Tioga...well said. A++++
I am just getting home from a long day of work and read the posts to catch up. We need to work together if we want to get anywhere.
Investigations do involve a great deal of problem solving and psychology. We have to get into Matt's train of thinking. Looking at old logs, as some have been posted, speaking to people who are close to him, reading emails, and checking phone messages are just a few ways. Investigators do this all the time when profiling people. Now we have to wait for results from the detective. This I why I posted yesterday and asked if Matt had any other hobbies. Ron and Tiffany would know him best as family, but any close friends would know what he likes to do in his free time.
"Getting boots to the ground" is another way to search for Matt. Can anyone head to Mammoth this weekend?
Perhaps a list of questions to ask family and friends, if they haven't already been answered, would be a another avenue to try. Sometimes just one question will trigger a memory of something Matt said or did that may have been overlooked. I experience that frequently in my line of work. Just a thought...I don't mind helping to make up questions. Split Pants has been keeping track of what has been asked and facts documented. We need to get inside of Matt's head and think outside of the box.
Through technology...
By foot...
Through psychology...
we can figure this out! We can't give up!
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lazydays
climber
Nazareth, PA
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Sep 12, 2013 - 07:54pm PT
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Without their handlers first they can do nothing for you.
So your "ultimate" is not true at all ......
While a dog needs his/her handler to get the search started (gearing up, scenting the article, etc), he/she does not need the handler after that. Their searches would be far superior to just a sight search done by a human.
With that said - dogs would not be beneficial at this point, especially man-trailing dogs (such as a bloodhound). Humans shed around a million dead skin cells every day and a bloodhound could get started on a SINGLE cell, but too much time has passed now, with wind, rain, foot traffic. Dead skin cells blow away, decompose. At this point, there is no viable trail that any man-trailer can follow.
Air scent dogs - They don't follow a trail, but rather can detect the odor of the skin cells through the air. Again, even for air-scent dogs, too much time has elapsed. An air-scent dog would have to be in very close proximity to Matt to possibly pick up a scent. An air-scent dog would be no better than a visual search by a human at this point. Plus, air-scenters work off-lead and would absolutely have to have experience in this type of terrain. All areas may not be accessible for a dog. Air-scent dogs are not all cadaver dogs either. Cadavers require cadaver training, different from rescue. (I hate the thought of thinking of or mentioning cadaver dogs - but it seems it's a part of reality at the moment)...
Cadaver dogs could be of use and could detect a body for a substantial period of time. But, the problem here again is "a starting point." No one really has one, in addition to the dangerous terrain.
In order for dogs to have been used (successfully) in Matt's case, they would have needed to be brought in BEFORE the campground packed up Matt's belongings and put them in a locker. Keep in mind, twelve days passed before anyone knew he was "missing." That in itself was a lot of time that passed by, already making a potential K9 SAR situation difficult.
It will be up to the feet on the ground now...
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kenish
Gym climber
Orange County, CA
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Sep 12, 2013 - 08:28pm PT
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Adding to lazydays (and rehashing), there was very dense smoke in the Mammoth area from a fire near Yosemite in early August. The smoke was thick enough to shut down Mammoth Airport on some days. Dogs would not have been effective according to the K9 handlers.
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lazydays
climber
Nazareth, PA
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Sep 12, 2013 - 08:43pm PT
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I wonder what's was the distance they expected the dog to pick up the scent from at that point.
It's been a number of years since I was involved with K9 SAR and I worked with a man-trailer, but I believe the longest distance on record was 2 miles for air-scent dog (that was years ago, could have changed). And that was in the best possible conditions. But, more realistically, it would be between 100 and 300 yards.
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LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
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Sep 12, 2013 - 09:03pm PT
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Tioga and Lazydays,
Could the dogs used in looking for the plane crash have been air-scent dogs trained to search for the smell of burnt fuel? That might hang around longer and travel further than the scent of a person. :-(
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lazydays
climber
Nazareth, PA
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Sep 12, 2013 - 09:32pm PT
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So, basically, if a person is slightly off trail and the trail is known the dog will likely pick up the scent. I was really surprised to see the dog used almost 8 months after the incident.
Air-Scent dogs do not use/need a trail. They do not sniff out a path; they sniff the (air in the) area. Air-scent dogs will normally take the quickest path to the subject, where as a man-trailer usually follow (or closely follows) a trail. So, if a "victim" travels a curvy mile, usually a man-trailer will follow the twists and turns for that mile, but if an air-scent dog picks up the scent, it will eliminate the twist and turns and cut through to the shortest path. So, in the case of the plane, if they were in a close proximity of the plane, it is possible the GSD would have found the plane, but without proper training (in this case, after 6 months, cadaver training), the dog would not have known that it had to "search" for something. All dogs have tremendous scenting ability,but in order to be a search and rescue/recovery dog, he or she has to be trained or to them, it's just a long walk...taking in the sights and the smells.
Could the dogs used in looking for the plane crash have been air-scent dogs trained to search for the smell of burnt fuel? That might hang around longer and travel further than the scent of a person. :-(
It seems unlikely to me that the dog would have been trained to smell burnt fuel. I would think that it would have been a cadaver-trained dog. Bodies that have been missing for years and even those in shallow graves can be found by cadaver dogs.
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lazydays
climber
Nazareth, PA
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Sep 12, 2013 - 10:15pm PT
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Lazydays, what I meant by "the trail is known" is if the trail (actual hiking trail/route that was taken) was determined, taking the search dog along the trail would help to locate, in case the person went off trail and fell (as soon as they, say, within 100-300 yards off trail)
Sorry... misunderstood...
Yes... if the trail a missing person took was known, an air-scent dog could be brought down that trail and would have a very good chance of finding the missing person, keeping in mind, with any K9 search and rescue effort, time is of the essence.
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Sonoma Jack
Social climber
Sonoma, ca
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Sep 12, 2013 - 11:16pm PT
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Not so sure what would precipitate your hostilities of idle brainstorming of topics that have already been discussed. The fact is, there really isn't anything else to discuss in this matter. Winter sets in, other endeavors take hold, and the Matt Green thread gets buried 20 pages deep into the Forum. I guess that's fine, if that's what you advocate. I, however, would think that any discussion on the topic is better than dead air. Keeping Matt Green's name on the front page of any publication, including Super Topo would surly be what feiends and family would prefer. not sure why you are advocating the opposite.
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pacarockhound
Social climber
Escondido CA
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Sep 12, 2013 - 11:35pm PT
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Perhaps it is my Quaker upbringing (in Nazareth/Bethlehem)in which all decisions for the group were based on consensus....but I believe there is room for all----brainstorming, expert and seasoned hikers searching on the ground, technical savvy, intuitive dreams and visions, dogs and other animals (who seem to be the masters of intuition at times), posters and pr, etc.
Also, look at how much we are all learning, in spite of the tragedy of Matt's disappearance.
Matt is not my family, and yet I get hope (and comfort) from hearing from so many people with diverse talents and backgrounds.
I say keep the energy flowing!
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James Wilcox
Boulder climber
The Coast
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Sep 12, 2013 - 11:44pm PT
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Brainstorming, followed by inaction, is pointless.
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ß Î Ø T Ç H
Boulder climber
extraordinaire
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Sep 12, 2013 - 11:52pm PT
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the search for the December 2012 plane (crash) ... in Yosemite I was wondering about that. Did they ever find anything? It went off the radar at North Dome or something.
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Crazy Bat
Sport climber
Birmingham, AL & Seweanee, TN
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Sep 12, 2013 - 11:52pm PT
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I have friends who run cadaver dogs. While on vacation their dogs alerted to a mass grave from the civil war.
These dogs have to be trained to recognize the difference between human and animal decay.
The handlers must be able to handle the same terrain as the dogs and vice versa. The dogs are even trained to ride a partners rappel. Cadaver dogs are all air scent dogs. They are trained to alert by sitting down so they don't ruin crime scenes.
I doubt they would be of use without knowing exactly where and what route he planned to take.
Asking bird watchers who where in the area if they saw flights of vultures might be a good idea.
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pacarockhound
Social climber
Escondido CA
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Sep 12, 2013 - 11:55pm PT
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BTW Tioga, that article about Yodogs was fascinating. Thank you!
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SplitPants
Social climber
LA
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Sep 13, 2013 - 12:06am PT
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Tiffany & Ron & Boots on the Ground Climbers
What are your thoughts on creating a separate thread that is strictly for:
-Areas previously searched
-Areas that need to be searched
-link to the updated map that is being maintained
This way people (boots on the ground folks) that are actually going out into the field will have a centralized place to find out areas that need to be searched, have a place to report where they searched and their findings (example, registers checked etc...) and discussion related to boots on the ground activities and coordination for people looking to partner up to go out into the field.
The thread could start with a general background (facts such as gear with pics etc...) then a list with links tags needed (eg previous trip reports). Basically a thread for the people that are physically searching and those that wish to help search.
This thread in its current state is helpful, but to someone that just wants to help search out in the field having to go through hundreds of posts to figure out where they can search could be a bit challenging.
Would like to hear thoughts.........
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JNCalif
Social climber
Hoboken, NJ by way of Orange County, CA
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Sep 13, 2013 - 01:13am PT
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SplitPants - IMHO, that's an excellent suggestion. I can understand why the boots-on-the-ground people are getting impatient with the lack of solid information. I can also understand that many, many people care deeply for Matthew, although they've never met him — and want somehow to help, even if they aren't experienced climbers.
Speaking for myself, I'm wishing that I spent the years I often skied at Mammoth and June - beginning in 1975 — would have given me the skills to help find Matt.
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JNCalif
Social climber
Hoboken, NJ by way of Orange County, CA
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Sep 13, 2013 - 01:16am PT
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And Cragman - deeply touched by the passion and extraordinary commitment you have for this case and hoping all these efforts will lead to finding Matt sooner rather than later.
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LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
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Sep 13, 2013 - 01:32am PT
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Tiffany said:
For what it's worth, I did talk to the Bethlehem police and I need to head into the station to sign a declaration making Matt's disappearance official in his hometown; something we've yet to do. They told me over the phone they should be able to help in obtaining some of the records we're after.
I believe that least three sources of info (maybe more) are being pursued that may help us figure out where Matt went on July 17th:
-Attempts by Detective Hornbeck (and maybe potentially by the Bethlehem police to get access to Matt's email accounts.
-Attempts by Detective Hornbeck to interview the Morales family.
-Attempts by SplitPants (and Ron or Tiffany?) to get info from the Mammoth Library network Admin person regarding what websites and pages Matt might have accessed, especially on July 16th.
I hope that at least some of these attempts will get some useful info soon, to help narrow things down so those boots have a better chance to be on the right piece of ground...
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Psilocyborg
climber
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Sep 13, 2013 - 05:49am PT
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There is NO beauty in social media
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KellyDoesntClimb
Social climber
Dunwoody, GA
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Sep 13, 2013 - 08:24am PT
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Love the ideas about the map. I can easily change those things now that I'm using mapsengine.
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Ikat
Social climber
Carson City
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Sep 13, 2013 - 11:06am PT
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As Cragman says, let's get back to the facts and work from there.
The summitpost activity is consistent with administrative activity. I don't see the need to pursue that issue.
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tdg119
Social climber
Northampton, PA
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Sep 13, 2013 - 11:20am PT
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I logged on to Matts SuperTopo account on the 11th. The admins reset his password for me and I was checking something. ~ Ron
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James Wilcox
Trad climber
Goleta/Virginia Lakes
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Sep 13, 2013 - 01:05pm PT
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Getting three, four, five different threads going, and keep bumping to the front page will not win you friends.
Here's the reality of the situation. You have very few known facts. Matt was staying at Shady Rest, his car was getting fixed, and he bought something at Rite Aid.
The logical assumptions based on Matt's missing gear is a day hike with snow/ice on the agenda. Most likely out of Agnew since he had no transportation(that we know of).
You window of opportunity in accessing the most likely areas he may have ventured to is closing fast. And once it closes your done for the next eight months. If we get a decent winter getting 15-20 feet of snow is not uncommon. We've had two sub par winters in a row, so areas that typically hold snow are free. For now. But if we start having regular snow levels some spots, spots that may hold evidence of Matt could stay buried, even during the summer.
I'm not sure of all the pros and cons, if Cragman decides to respond to this, great. But offering a decent reward may get people who live on the Eastside willing to venture back there. Even that's a long shot. Fossett crashed a plane, started a small fire, and had a $10,000 reward and it still took a year and luck to come across him.
I'm in the process of getting our cabin ready for winter here at VGL. That'll consume the next few weeks, than I'll head in myself for a few days.
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zBrown
Ice climber
Brujo de La Playa
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Sep 13, 2013 - 05:16pm PT
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I would make the assumption that Mr. Greene was not wandering aimlessly through 350 sq. miles of wilderness (though it is a possibility, e.g. if he had a stroke - BTW what is his medical history and that of his family?).
He most likely had a destination in mind. My suggestion is that 3-4 likely ones be chosen and the trails heading there be carefully searched. At this point I'd be looking for a backpack (frame at least) or ice axe, crampons which it was indicated above he was likely carrying.
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kenish
Gym climber
Orange County, CA
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Sep 13, 2013 - 05:34pm PT
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^Z Brown....exactly what Cragman and other volunteers have been doing, based on their expertise of the backcountry, climbing, and asking "What would Matt do?". It's been detailed several times in this thread, but I understand why you didn't read through it.
The past several posts bring up several good points...Fossett's very deep pockets and political clout weren't enough to get results. A hiker came across the scene by random chance. The search for Randy Morgenson also used SAR experts searching high-probability areas. They were within a few hundred feet of him several times and he wasn't spotted. In both those cases, plus Larry Conn's, the "first find" was an item (gear, aircraft parts) and it sometimes took a surprising amount of additional searching to find the person. A formidable task even when the itinerary and "place last seen" are more definite than Matt's.
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zBrown
Ice climber
Brujo de La Playa
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Sep 13, 2013 - 05:55pm PT
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This seems a little strange even to me, but if somebody is looking for metal could a longer range metal detector be of any use?
Such a beast exists, though I can't look into it right now.
http://www.rangertell.com/
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tdg119
Social climber
Northampton, PA
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Sep 13, 2013 - 06:40pm PT
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Lol...that thing is nothing more than a calculator glued to a radio. It's the biggest scam on the Internet. -Ron.
Real metal detectors will "detect" everything in the ground, except what we need in this case.
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pacarockhound
Social climber
Escondido CA
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Sep 13, 2013 - 07:58pm PT
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Sep 13, 2013 - 09:13pm PT
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Hey rockhound, are you perhaps Lisa from Escondido?
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pacarockhound
Social climber
Escondido CA
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Sep 13, 2013 - 09:23pm PT
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Nope, Wendy Hammarstrom.
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ctadlock
climber
Mammoth Lakes
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Sep 13, 2013 - 09:31pm PT
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Ive been watching this thread for a while. I live here in Mammoth. Im heading out for a day hike on Sunday to explore the Reds Meadow - Iron Mt path...
http://highwire.stanford.edu/~galic/hiking/ironmountain/
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Supermama
Social climber
pa
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Sep 13, 2013 - 09:46pm PT
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Boots on the ground team: I am waiting to hear from the Detective about Morales' and email accounts. If he is able to find information and we are all scattered over many threads, it may take longer to get the information you need to you...information that could steer you in the right direction.
Could we each head our posts with a heading: Boots on Ground, Email Enthusiast, and Problem Solvers so you can breeze over the topics that do not interest you? Some of us want to read it all to try to fit the pieces of the puzzle together.
Also, could the title to this thread say read all before you post? That would cut down on the repetition. That part is frustrating especially when new people chime in. (Like I did many pages ago)
There has to be a way to keep us all connected, yet make it tolerable for all. We all have the same goal, finding Matt.
Just a thought...
Supermama
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jeg
Social climber
center valley,Pa
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Sep 13, 2013 - 11:40pm PT
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CTADLOCK.....
If you run into anyone climbing Iron Mountain, could you please ask them to check the summit registry(if there is one) to see if Matt signed it July 17. Thanks!
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tdg119
Social climber
Northampton, PA
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Sep 14, 2013 - 09:56am PT
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There is a registry on iron but it was not checked. A church hiking group summited iron on 7/20, 7/21. At the time, they were not aware Matt was missing and did not take notice of the names. They also did not see anything strange on iron. -Ron
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pacarockhound
Social climber
Escondido CA
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Sep 15, 2013 - 06:55pm PT
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Zbrown
That link to the lifesaving drone is amazing. Thanks for sharing.
Wish something like that could find Matt.
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pacarockhound
Social climber
Escondido CA
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Sep 15, 2013 - 06:58pm PT
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ctadlock,
Did you learn of anything on your hike in Red Meadows, Iron Mountain?
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tdg119
Social climber
Northampton, PA
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Sep 15, 2013 - 08:05pm PT
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Funny, we contacted a drone company (www.avinc.com) and not sure what interaction there was but they were ultimately told there was nothing they could do to help.
Not much new here. Really hoping they manage to track down Morales. Last I spoke to the detective he said they'd get a local officer in his hometon to pay a visit. After speaking to my parents today I got the impression Matt got to know them and spoke of them once or twice.
Aside from that I opened the missing persons in Matt's hometown. Don't know why I didn't do this 2 months ago but hadn't thought of it. PA detective to contact me Monday. Won't get into that mor until I know what they're able to do for us.
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pacarockhound
Social climber
Escondido CA
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Sep 15, 2013 - 09:11pm PT
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maybe the drone company thought the area was too vast, or too many unknowns.....?
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zBrown
Ice climber
Brujo de La Playa
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Sep 15, 2013 - 09:53pm PT
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Funny, we contacted a drone company (www.avinc.com) and not sure what interaction there was but they were ultimately told there was nothing they could do to help.
Definitely a "future" for the general public. In addition to a couple of mentions on this thread, there was a thread somewhere a while back where the technology was discussed. My memory is that it is not as expensive as one would think. I'll look around.
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crankster
Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
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Sep 15, 2013 - 11:08pm PT
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Aside from that I opened the missing persons in Matt's hometown. Don't know why I didn't do this 2 months ago but hadn't thought of it. PA detective to contact me Monday. Won't get into that mor until I know what they're able to do for us.
Smart move. Time to try anything. At this point in time, I think the odds of Matt's presumed remains being found in the Sierra before winter = the odds of him turning up alive in PA or elsewhere, gone missing for whatever reason.
I'm really hoping the family receives closure soon. They have done so much, pursued every avenue; such an admirable, loving group of people.
One solid clue. It's what we've all hoped for.
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ß Î Ø T Ç H
Boulder climber
extraordinaire
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Sep 15, 2013 - 11:52pm PT
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looking forward to ctadlock's tr.
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kenish
Gym climber
Orange County, CA
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Sep 16, 2013 - 12:04am PT
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++ to crankster!! ^^^^
A thought about Matt's nighttime phone pattern. Where would Matt charge his phone? He probably left it somewhere to charge since I assume there were no outlets in a secure place at the campground. He may have asked neighboring campers to charge it in their car or RV. Did Matt's belongings include an AC charger, a car charger (cigarette lighter), or both? The other thought is he charged it in his car at the garage.
His nighttime pattern may have been different on the 16/17th simply because he had no place to charge the phone...no neighboring campers, or his car was locked up in the service bay for final repairs. So he kept it with him in the tent.
I know this is low-value conjecture but it could be a very simple answer to "what was different on the last night?"
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LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
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Sep 16, 2013 - 02:51am PT
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Tiffany,
I hope the Morales family provides some useful info. It's good that you opened that missing person case in Bethlehem. I hope that either the Bethlehem police or Detective Hornbeck can help get access to Matt's email accounts. I also hope that SplitPants has some luck with the Mammoth Lakes library network admin.
Maybe one or more of these avenues will provide a break in the case or at least help narrow things down.
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pacarockhound
Social climber
Escondido CA
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Sep 16, 2013 - 02:59am PT
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Agreed!
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ctadlock
Mountain climber
Mammoth Lakes
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Sep 16, 2013 - 10:40am PT
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Trip Report: Red's Meadow - Iron Mt
Summary: We did not find any sign of Matt. We searched the area from Reds Meadow to Fern Lake, then up to the crest via the main ridge, up to the first major peak, then down the crest, then down the chute back to Fern Lake. We were unable to summit; not enough time. We did not see any other hikers on the trail. From the crest we used binoculars to scan a very large area. Our group included myself, my girlfriend and my golden lab (Odie); we are acclimated to the altitude (we live here), experienced in the mountains and moved fairly quickly. I paid special attention to Odie sniffing things, but all he found was animal tracks.
Notes: This is an extremely rugged hike. While there is a trail up to Fern Lake, beyond that there is not a defined trail nor is there an obvious route that you would take up. I'd say there are 4-5 main routes up spanning a 2 mile wide area of the crest; we only checked 3. Any snow on the mountain at that time might totally change the route up. This makes it very difficult to know which area to search. The terrain is very, very loose granite chunks. It would be very easy to slip due to a rock sliding out or cause a rock slide; we had both happen several times. Beyond the crest, to the summit which we did not reach looked hazardous as well due to the rocks and the often high-wind gusts. Winds in that area can be very severe. We left Reds at 7am and returned at 5:30pm. From the crest I guesstimate it would have taken another 2 hours to the summit; that would put the total trip time at 14-15 hrs for an out and back. To go down the other side, and do the full loop would add some time as well. This area has a lot of animal activity; lots of deer, bear, ground rodents, birds and possible coyote (not sure how high they go up).
Opinion: I do not think that any hiker acting in a responsible manner would attempt this hike in one day while alone; doing so would be very risky. Even if Matt was a very fast hiker this is still a 20 mile, 14 hr hike on difficult terrain. One thing to note, he would have needed alternate transportation to Reds Meadow. The public buses and shuttle do not run until 8-9AM (depending on which one). If he took that it would delay the start ~2 hrs to about 9am. At that point an expected return time would be very late at night, and again there wouldn't be public transportation back to Shady. There is no chance he walked from Shady to Reds. Due to the animal activity, any remains would be scattered over a large area quickly. To get to the summit register, would require either an overnight hike or a small group of very fast hikers singularly focused on getting to the summit, and they would need an alpine start.
UPDATE 1:
Here is a map of the area we had good visibility to search for.
UPDATE 2:
This has probably been done.. but the trail to Fern Lake is a regular mule pack trail (lots of manure on the trail). The pack outfits should be contacted.
We did find a small button on the south shore of Fern lake.
UPDATE 3:
Here are some photos of the terrain, to give you an idea.
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kenish
Gym climber
Orange County, CA
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Sep 16, 2013 - 01:55pm PT
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@ctadlock- Great search effort which everyone appreciates...everything helps but physical searches are the most valuable since they're ultimately how Matt will be found. Note the button you found uses British/Canadian/Aussie spelling, not the American spelling.
@zBrown- Discussed before, the Verizon logs included 3 sites in the Mammoth area...by the library, near Norco (auto service center), and by the top chalet on top of the mountain. The exact lat/lon provided were confirmed on Google satellite and street views and incidental photos of the top chalet. The "antenna finder" site is the wrong context for your investigation and the map only shows 1 of the 3 Verizon sites (it shows tower structures only and not the many different "tenants" on a typical tower). Hope this helps, send me a message if you need the exact lat/lon.
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zBrown
Ice climber
Brujo de La Playa
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Sep 16, 2013 - 02:04pm PT
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On the same site, the antennas map shows 90 within 4 miles of 96 Beaver Ct., while 5 towers are shown on the tower map. It even breaks down antennas as to single or multiple. It's an interesting site. Trying to see if the 4 mile range can be expanded.
http://www.antennasearch.com/sitestart.asp?sourcepagename=reportviewer2&prevsessionidnum=525400415&prevordernum=
1&previtemnum=1§ionname=txreview&pagename=txreview&pagenum=
1&cmdrequest=pagehandler
EDIT: URL's have had carriage returns inserted to stop stretching the page.
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kenish
Gym climber
Orange County, CA
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Sep 16, 2013 - 03:24pm PT
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^^zBrown- That's way better! On the map and list, #1, #12, and #52 are the 3 locations of Verizon sites. FYI, anything in the 450 or 800MHz band is CDMA to/from phone handsets. Other Verizon frequencies are for their internal infrastructure.
A cell site is 9-15 antennas arranged in a triangle; each one covers a 20-40 degree slice. The approximate direction from the cell site can be figured out by knowing which antenna(s) a phone "hit". I seem to recall that Verizon won't research it without law enforcement involvement.
From personal experience, Verizon coverage west of Minaret Summit is spotty at best and usually zero. There may be coverage higher up the east slope of Ritter and the Minarets (cell signals are mostly line-of-sight) if the site on Mammoth Mtn is set up for a 360 degree signal. Coverage at Lake Mary is good...terrain is the big thing.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Sep 16, 2013 - 03:41pm PT
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I've been away for several days. Had my head buried in work including a trip to Seattle.
CyDuke posted a very good link a few days ago.
http://hikenhi.smugmug.com/Davids-Hiking-and/Mount-Ritter-July-2013
"David" spent several days in the Minarets/Ritter/Banner area alone and with a friend in mid August this year
The 2nd photo on the site is his topo map.
His base camp was at the site above Ediza.
Besides the excellent high definition photos of several aspects of the range there is useful information.
Routes he/they covered
First: Solo Ediza->Iceberg->Cecile
then ascended South Notch. Climbed NW ridge of Kehrlein Minaret. He has many photos of Amphitheater Lake (which he thinks is un-named and calls "alpine" lake) and East face of Adams, back side of Ken and return via South Notch. The ruggedness of the area, especially the E Face of Adams is clear (Secor has no routes listed for E Face of Adams)
We can consider South Notch east side and NW route on Kerhlein covered. Note that he needed his crampons on the South Notch glacier.
His second outing was with friend and they climbed Ritter via SE Glacier. He also has a photo of another climber descending the glacier.
We can consider Ritter SE glacier covered.
Third trip, also with friend, was a round trip around Nydiver lakes towards NE side of Banner. A lot of XC travel but no climbing.
His fourth, also solo: Attempted the Central Chute on Clyde Minaret. Approached via Cecile Lake and climbed about 4 pitches before retreating from a 5th class section.
We can consider the traverse from Cecile Lake to beneath the N Face of Clyde Minaret covered. There's still a considerable distance from there to Cragman's furthest south excursion along the same giant ledge system.
This helps us eliminate (at least for the first pass) a lot of difficult ground. His notes contain a lot of detail and we can assume they didn't come across anything suspicious.
These are excellent reference photos, especially for the snow/ice conditions a month after Matt's disappearance.
He might be contacted to see if he can be of any help with information about Matt
F
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pacarockhound
Social climber
Escondido CA
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Sep 16, 2013 - 08:32pm PT
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CTadlock --- thank you!!!
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pacarockhound
Social climber
Escondido CA
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Sep 16, 2013 - 08:34pm PT
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High Traverse - thank you for reposting that link to photos. What a great reference they are!
Cyduke - thank you for posting that link.
Will someone be contacting the photographer to see if he noticed anything unusual?
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Dan Watson
climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Sep 17, 2013 - 03:33pm PT
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Here's an update on the Mammoth Lakes missing person investigation. I just got back after being out of town for over one week. Detective Hornbeck finally located Morales. He didn't have any valuable information, but believed that if he reviewed the missing pages, that could trigger his memory. This information has been provided to Jill and Tiffany who will follow-up with Morales.
Detective Hornbeck has been in contact with the Bethlehem Sergeant who is handling their missing person investigation. All of our reports and files have been sent to him. They will be exchanging any information they discover.
Hornbeck was also able to access Matt's work e-mails. Nothing of value was there. It was all work related.
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LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
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Sep 17, 2013 - 04:06pm PT
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Thanks for the update, Chief Watson! I'm glad Tiffany and Jill will be able to follow up with Morales.
It's great that your department and the Bethlehem police department will be sharing all info in their respective missing persons cases.
Regarding Matt's email accounts, I hope his Hotmail account proves more fruitful.
I also hope that details of Matt's work emails can be provided to the family. Because Matt didn't have a smartphone and apparently send all email from the Mammoth library, even the timing of the emails he sent can contribute to a detailed picture of his habits while in Mammoth and especially to an understanding of what he did in the last few days before July 17th.
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Supermama
Social climber
pa
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Sep 17, 2013 - 07:32pm PT
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ctadlock....Thank you for all of your efforts and report! This will definitely close in the search area.
High Traverse...Thank you for the photos and deductive reasoning. I agree the family should try to contact the photographer.
Dan Watson...thank you for your follow through! Knowing that every rock has been turned over and every effort to find Matt has been made will bring peace to those who are missing him.
The community is holding a fund raiser to help in the search efforts. We haven't given up hope. Please know that all of the searchers' time, energy and knowledge of climbing and teamwork have not gone unnoticed. You all are an amazing group of people. Thank you for trying!
Supermama
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kenish
Gym climber
Orange County, CA
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Sep 18, 2013 - 03:02pm PT
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Matt is very likely in the backcountry and that's where the physical search is focused. There's a collection of scenarios in this thread that place Matt elsewhere. All are agreed to be very unlikely, but added together there's a greater (but still very small) probability that Matt isn't in the backcountry.
Has family formally entered Matt onto various US and Canadian databases in case law enforcement, a hospital, or the public recognizes him? I think some are run by law enforcement and others as private websites. Now that Bethlehem PD and MLPD have missing person reports, it may be easier to obtain a database entry. Just a thought...
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Supermama
Social climber
pa
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Sep 18, 2013 - 06:07pm PT
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Split Pants...great form! At least something good can come of Matt's disappearance.
Kenish...if we only had more of a clue as to where he was heading. It's a shame Morales' couldn't remember anything.
The school email didn't have any information, so lets hope authorities are trying to get into the Hotmail account. That is all we have left from the technology point of view.
There is a t-shirt fund raiser, along with others, to help with search and rescue efforts. Since SAR is all volunteer work, maybe the family could contact a group that would work for pay to search for Matt. Does one even exist? Time is of the essence. (Sorry if this was already discussed)
Supermama
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maverick01
climber
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Sep 18, 2013 - 06:38pm PT
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Hi SplitPants,
This forum was the first place I posted it after finishing it
but unfortunately no one noticed it and went down the list every fast.
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/2228290/ReConn-Form
I am hoping a Supertopo Moderator would place it somewhere on
this site so folks can access it, we have it pinned for the
moment on HST but it will be in our "Announcements" section
permanently for all members and non members to download it.
Hopefully we will be able to avoid situations like Larry's and
Matthew's in the future or at the least bring a quicker resolution
to all involved.
Please take advantage of it!
Maverick
PS I am aware of my misspelling and that the number 2 is
missing off the Yosemite Dispatches Phone Number, but we
are having some technical difficulties which makes correcting
these not possible at this moment.
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pacarockhound
Social climber
Escondido CA
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Sep 19, 2013 - 12:02am PT
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Supermama,
How about using some of t-shirt fundraiser money to hire the retired detective from Mammoth who works with his dog, Paul Dostie......mentioned in visions and dreams thread.....
Also - I sent Find Matt Greene poster to 3 Chambers of Commerce and got this reply today:
**
**//Mammoth Lakes Chamber of Commerce
Yes, I will include it in our weekly email blast which reaches 1,000 people.//
I haven't received a reply from Mariposa Chamber (Yosemite) or Minden, NV.
Any other suggestions of places to send it? I mentioned that we (you) are looking for someone who may have spoken to Matt close to July 16th that might have an idea where he went on the 17th.
-------------------------------------------------------
I contacted Harv Galic from Stanford who wrote about the Rettenbachers, a couple who died climbing Banner Mtn in the 1930s, and who were buried near by.....part of his response as follows:
Wendy, I am painfully aware of Matt's disappearance. I came back from
the Sierra yesterday, and I can tell you that the 'missing' posters
are everywhere: at trailheads, national park's enter/exit stations,
forest service ranger station, etc. Actually, I was climbing in the
Minarets (which would be an area of high interest to Matt, and close
to his last known location) in the last week of July. At that time
Matt's disappearance was not yet known, but I didn't see anything
suspicious. However, that means nothing. Even if hundreds of people
were to comb the Minarets, they could still easily miss finding any
clues.
For the sake of family and friends, I wish there is a closure to
Matthew's case, and soon. However, the first snow may come to the
Ritter Range and nearby high mountains as soon as this weekend.
-Harv
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Supermama
Social climber
pa
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Sep 19, 2013 - 08:39pm PT
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Pacarockhound...Thank you for your suggestions. Matt's family, who checks in with this forum, would need to decide how they want to spend the money. I'm sure they will see this, so thank you.
Great job sending out the flyers to everyone! The more people who know, the better! Perhaps someone else from the area could suggest other places to send the flyer. I am not from the area.
Please send Harv a big thank you for his report and words of wisdom. I realize the odds are against Matt. All we can do is pray for a miracle!
If anyone else has any other suggestions, please chime in.
Will anyone be hiking in the area this weekend?
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WBraun
climber
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Sep 19, 2013 - 10:02pm PT
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So far ...
Still nothing. Nada, zero.
The guy vanished into thin air.
No one has a clue where he really went ultimately.
Still, .... just tons of guesses .......
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ß Î Ø T Ç H
Boulder climber
extraordinaire
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Sep 20, 2013 - 12:01am PT
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I never tell anybody where I'm going, but I figure my car being parked in a certain place would tip them off, if I was dead or whatever nearby.
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pacarockhound
Social climber
Escondido CA
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Sep 20, 2013 - 01:53am PT
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Kenish and ZBrown
You now have me thinking about missing persons data bases....I hope Matt is on all of them.
Found the info about number of Missing Persons and details about searches interesting. Thanks for sharing that ZBrown.
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Todd Quinn
Trad climber
Oceanside, CA
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Sep 20, 2013 - 02:34am PT
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Morales information/
Harv you rock, ctadlock thank you. Thank you for putting in the time on the ground. The information from the Morales suggests he is a non climber. I don’t believe Matt would have gone into detail with a non climber about his route
Rather, Matt may have just shared a picture from the book of where he was going? Chapter twelve can be broken down to full page or half page photography. It is a shame the Morales didn’t come forward sooner. Memories fade but in this example it was borderline criminal not to come forward sooner. Maybe they can make up time and try to further help the Greene Family.
Don’t beat me up, but hypnosis can help people remember the past. It’s legit sh#t.
Hope everyone on this site is doing well.
Book: The High Sierra Peaks, Passes, Trails 3rd Edition By Secor
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LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
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Sep 20, 2013 - 03:01am PT
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Ctadlock, thanks to you and yours for searching and reporting.
HighTraverse, thanks for your thoughts -- I'm glad we can consider those areas searched.
Pacarockhound, thanks for sending the flyer to those Chambers of Commerce and for contacting Harv Galic.
SplitPants, welcome back! I appreciate all the work, skill, and good sense you've brought to this search.
Supermama, thanks for your efforts -- good to hear about the fundraiser.
And thanks to everyone else for your effort and ideas! I hope we have a break in this case soon, or at least can get a little more info from the emails, Morales family, etc....
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tdg119
Social climber
Northampton, PA
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Sep 20, 2013 - 06:20am PT
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Interesting missing persons info.
Morales has access to the scanned missing chaper of the books hanks o SplitPants and jeg and her husband have been working with him over the phone to see what he remembers.
I need to touch base with the PA detective to see if he received case files and is willing to start pulling the records requested.
I'm not opposed to some of the SAR methods proposed. I will gladly look into Paul Dostie more if someone can scrounge up a way to get a hold of him. I've found little, though admittedly haven't tried social media because I access a lot from my work PC.
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Dan Watson
climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Sep 20, 2013 - 10:57am PT
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Paul Dostie has been retired for several years and his dog, Buster, is a cadaver dog. He will have the same problem as SAR. Without a specific location to search, he won't know where to go. But, I will try to get hold of him today and refer him to this site to see if he can help.
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kenish
Gym climber
Orange County, CA
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Sep 20, 2013 - 11:55am PT
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It is a shame the Morales didn’t come forward sooner. Memories fade but in this example it was borderline criminal not to come forward sooner. Maybe they can make up time and try to further help the Greene Family.
With all due respect, that's a pretty harsh judgment of Morales. They are probably not climbers as you commented. He learned of Matt's disappearance via a relative (Silva) who saw the FB page. FYI, I didn't hear about Matt until mid-August, via the Mammoth Times website in preparation for a trip to the area. Nobody else in our group of 8 were aware of it. A few LA news stations carried the story in late August as a 30-second blurb. It was lucky that Morales knew about it at all.
Morales voluntarily came forward in late August. Factually, the first 3-4 weeks of the delay were caused by Matt not being missed, then SAR and law enforcement being unable to mobilize due to lack of information. It is a shame Morales couldn't come forward sooner but it wasn't an unwillingness.
My $.02 worth.
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LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
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Sep 20, 2013 - 01:25pm PT
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Tiffany, I’m glad Jill and John are working with Arnold Morales, his family, and the book!
Jill and John -- you probably know about this, but I have a few suggestions based on cognitive psychology (my field). Caveat: I'm not a professional interviewer or investigator;the police may also have suggestions. Here goes anyway...
Of course, it's helpful to establish a rapport -- you probably have already done so. Discussing Mr. Morales's camping trip, what family members were present, and how he met Matt can help both establish rapport and provide retrieval cues for the information we're trying to get. Your caring for Matt can help you connect.
Maybe it will all come back to him when he sees the pages -- maybe it already has. If not, it may help memory to recreate as much as possible the conditions under which Matt showed Arnold the book and to bring to mind what was going on then. If you could be there in person, for instance, and if Matt showed Arnold the book while they were sitting at a picnic table, one could sit at a table with Arnold and as many as possible of any family members who were present that day in July. One could ask Arnold where Matt’s campsite was in relation to the table, and about when he showed Matt the book – what day was it, what time, where did Matt sit, etc. Then you could ask him what Matt did when he presented the book (or the pages? were the pages already removed from the book?) and ask him to remember the conversation and actions in detail.
In all of us, memory isn’t just playback – it involves reconstruction and can be influenced by suggestion. So to get accurate info it’s important to avoid asking "leading" questions that imply a particular answer -- open-ended questions are good, especially at first.
Given that you’re doing this over the phone (and depending on how much time Arnold has, of course), you could ask him to talk about how he met Matt, where were their campsites, who in the family spoke with him, did they hang out together and what did they do (did they share any food, etc.). And then you could do what I suggested above, except through verbal descriptions on the phone instead of in person. In doing so, if you notice that Mr. Morales tends to think of things in a particular way -- for instance, visually, spatially, or verbally -- it might be good to go with that. (This last point is no big deal -- most people think of things in a variety of ways -- it's just that he might happen to focus on different things than you do.)
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LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
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Sep 20, 2013 - 01:48pm PT
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I agree with Kenish that one shouldn’t judge the Morales family, as they appear to have learned of Matt’s disappearance much later than it occurred. Todd may be frustrated because, like Tiffany, he tried to contact them via Facebook, with no response. (Thank you, Todd for your efforts in that regard, and for familiarizing yourself with the Secor pages.)
A number of things were against those attempts: The two family members who “liked” the Find Matthew Greene page may have turned off notifications. Facebook doesn’t inform you of other comments people make in reply to the same post, only of replies to your own comment. Whether in your own feed or on another page, it's very hard to find comments on posts long ago. Emails sent through FB to someone who isn't a FB friend go to their "other” email box, which many people don’t even know exists. So it can be very frustrating trying to reach people through FB.
Also, there was some caution in contacting family members directly (for instance, by tracking them down in Bakersfield) because one didn’t want to scare them away and because they might have been witnesses in a criminal investigation.
Now that the police have said it’s okay for Tiffany, Jill, and John to contact them directly, maybe they can make some headway...
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Dan Watson
climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Sep 20, 2013 - 06:08pm PT
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I just spoke with Paul Dostie who responded to an e-mail I sent this morning. Buster, his cadaver dog, is now 10 years old and only has 3 legs. So his ability to search is limited as to distance. He can't go miles and miles anymore, but if he can get somewhere with a reasonably high likelihood of catching a scent, he can help. I explained to Paul the many possible areas Matthew could be. He has not had to look at this website, but will later today and then decide if he believes he can be of assistance to the search.
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SplitPants
Social climber
LA
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Sep 20, 2013 - 06:36pm PT
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Chief Watson,
Thanks a bunch for reaching out to Paul Dostie! Would be great if Buster could help out:)
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LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
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Sep 20, 2013 - 06:51pm PT
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Chief Watson,
I also want to thank you for following up with Paul Dostie. Even if Buster can’t help at this point, Dostie sounds like an excellent detective. Maybe he has some insights or could help in some other way.
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pacarockhound
Social climber
Escondido CA
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Sep 21, 2013 - 02:29am PT
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I was looking at photos by David Husted whose beautiful photos cyduke posted a week or so ago and contacted him though facebook climbing groups. He responded:
I'm headed up the North Fork of the San Joaquin River for a shot at Rodgers Peak here next week. I'll keep an eye out for the blue hat and/or Nepal Extreme Mtn Boots.
I'm kind of curious how well this area just west of the Clyde Minarets has been searched, especially towards the back of the lake by the glacier. http://hikenhi.smugmug.com/.../i-FRkvp84/A
The Alpine Lake
hikenhi.smugmug.com
This is a small un-named alpine Lake that's west of the Clyde Minaret. This smal... |
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pacarockhound
Social climber
Escondido CA
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Sep 21, 2013 - 02:43am PT
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from David Husted also-----just posted this 9/20 on find mattgreene facebook page under post about Dean:
I ran into this guy on August 28th along the Shadow Creek Trail at Ediza Lake. He's got the right idea searching the glaciers along the Minarets. I'm pretty sure that there's a glacier up there that has clues about Mathew.
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Supermama
Social climber
pa
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Sep 21, 2013 - 11:43am PT
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Tiffany and Ron...Any luck with the Hotmail account? Sorry the school account didn't turn up any information. I tried.
Dan...thanks for all you are doing!
Everyone...We have a whole school full of children and staff as well as his friends and family who are missing him greatly. I realize the odds are not in his favor, however, think of how you would feel if this was your son, brother, teacher, coworker or friend who went missing. Would you give up?
Keep the faith and let's carry on with the search...
Split Pants...any word from the boots to ground team?
supermama
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zBrown
Ice climber
Brujo de La Playa
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Sep 21, 2013 - 11:53am PT
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From the link above, with U.S. population of 312 million, it appears that each of us has a one in about 135,000 chance of being reported missing today.
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James Wilcox
Trad climber
Goleta/Virginia Lakes
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Sep 21, 2013 - 01:48pm PT
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At this point, I'd think that offering a decent reward, as opposed to hiring a search team, would make more financial sense. With so little known facts the odds of a hired team producing ne leads isn't all that high, whereas with a reward you only have to pay if there's results. And a decent reward could get a lot of local people motivated to hike into the suspect areas.
Nice of Dan to contact Mr. Dotsie. Eastside rock just tears up a dog's paws quickly(vet wrap and booties are standard equipment in our packs), and with the limitations on his dog I just don't see him making it to Ritter Range. But usually SAR dog people know other ones, so maybe he knows other trained teams who could help.
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tdg119
Social climber
Northampton, PA
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Sep 21, 2013 - 07:48pm PT
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James - my fear in posting a reward is that people who are not qualified to be in the mountains will try to look and be another liability or loss. Last thing I want is someone getting injured, lost, or worse.
PA detective wants to talk Tuesday.
Jill/John still going over what Morales has shared. When we have a good handle on it, we'll share for the whole group.
Matt is still very much on the forefront of my thoughts. I've heard I should let it go but I just can't yet. Too many raw emotions at the moment to say much more, but please all accept my heartfelt gratitude for sticking with me through this.
PS, just saw on a webcam it's snowing on Mammoth Mountain. :(
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Dan Watson
climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Sep 21, 2013 - 09:43pm PT
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There's been mostly rain in town with a minor dusting of snow, at least at my house which is at 8100 feet. It's snowing at the higher elevations, but accumulations are minor. It's supposed to be clear and sunny through Tuesay with a chance of rain on Wednesday and Thursday. The small amount of snow at higher elevations should not impact access.
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pacarockhound
Social climber
Escondido CA
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Sep 21, 2013 - 11:56pm PT
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Thank you Dan Watson for contacting Paul Dostie.
What did Paul Dostie say about helping with the search?
I, as LA Hiker, am curious to know if he has any suggestions, insights....even if not able to search difficult areas with his dog.
I facebooked about 20 hiking and nature groups yesterday, in the west coast, east coast , international.....with the Matt Greene missing poster. I will let you know if I get any responses, besides David who is on his way up there.
Tiffany, Supermama,
I haven't given up hope.
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ß Î Ø T Ç H
Boulder climber
extraordinaire
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Sep 22, 2013 - 12:06am PT
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Matt is still very much on the forefront of my thoughts. I've heard I should let it go, but I just can't yet. Too many raw emotions at the moment to say much more, but please all accept my heartfelt gratitude for sticking with me through this.
PS, just saw on a webcam it's snowing on Mammoth Mountain. :( (excellent post ^^) I was coming back from a drive north on 395 this evening, and saw the snow level while going by June lake Loop around 6:30 PM. The storm was plenty potent. No doubt there's some epics being dealt with up in the high country as we speak.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Sep 22, 2013 - 12:13am PT
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The lake on the back side of South Notch and the Clyde/Ken/Kerhlein Minarets is properly called Amphitheater Lake.
yes, it should be searched.
I'm still swamped with my project, hope to have some time tomorrow to help Split Pants update the list of places looked at / and to be looked at.
This weekend's snow is minor and I would expect it to melt within a few days even in the Minarets. No sense in taking a hike just for the purpose of looking until it melts. A lot of the likely spots such as clefts between boulders and bases of couloirs will be partially obscured (and easy enough to fall into). We SHOULD have several more weeks of decent weather although the past two years' weather has definitely been out of the normal. New Years' Ice skating on the High Sierra lakes and streams with not a snow patch on the ground?
Odd history bits: When Walter Starr Jr died on the Michael Minaret in 1933 there were Lower and Upper Iceberg Lakes. Now the upper Iceberg is Cecile Lake. However Amphitheater Lake was called Amphitheater Lake in '33. Amphitheater Chute was named by the first ascenders in the '60s.
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pacarockhound
Social climber
Escondido CA
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Sep 22, 2013 - 02:33am PT
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HighTraverse - from David Husted:
11:23pm
that Amphitheater lake is very remote and a good place to look. I didn't have the time to explore it. The glacier at the north end of the lake would be a good starting point. There are very few clues of the few people that visit this lake from the south notch.
11:27pm
David will not be doing this hike - he says: Something tells me in my gut that his goal was to get to the top of some minaret peak by means of glacier travel. Those boots he had are some serious mountaineering footwear.
11:37pm
This week: Twin Island Lakes, Rodgers peak, and Electra Peak. Western approach via the Isberg Pass Trail.
Here's the map: http://hikenhi.smugmug.com/Davids-Hiking-and/Rodgers-Peak-the-North-fork-of
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Dan Watson
climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Sep 22, 2013 - 05:31pm PT
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I forwarded an e-mail from Split Pants that contains a summary of the areas searched and other relevant information to Dostie. He was going to review it last night and then determine what assistance he could possibly provide.
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kenish
Gym climber
Orange County, CA
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Sep 22, 2013 - 08:00pm PT
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A climber suggested that Matt or his equipment could have fallen and come to rest down the west side of a crest or peak. Several climbers agreed it's plausible. The search map looks like the western slopes are unsearched for the most part. Has the area been searched? Or is glassing unlikely to get results and a ground search impractical and too risky? I'm sure there's a good reason...I know very little about the "other side of the mountain". Thought I'd bring it up since the weather window is starting to close.
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pacarockhound
Social climber
Escondido CA
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Sep 23, 2013 - 09:19pm PT
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Is this(Discovery Pinnacle) anywhere near discussed and agreed upon possible destinations of Matt's?
Could he have hooked up with another hiker and this gear belong to the other person?
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10b4me
Ice climber
Soon 2B Flagstaff
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Sep 23, 2013 - 11:21pm PT
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Discovery Pinnacle is in the Whitney area.
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pacarockhound
Social climber
Escondido CA
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Sep 23, 2013 - 11:23pm PT
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Yes, I see that now.....about 50? 100 miles away?
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kenish
Gym climber
Orange County, CA
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Sep 23, 2013 - 11:34pm PT
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Discovery Pinnacle is 80-100 miles south of Mammoth, very near Mt. Whitney. I'd urge the person who found the abandoned camp to report it to SAR or the sheriff. It's either in Inyo or Tulare County...but might get more attention thru Inyo County. It may be connected to a known rescue/recovery where the camp was abandoned or never found, or less likely to a still-missing person or even the subject of an active search (like Matt). No matter what, that much gear isn't simply lost or casually left behind. The owner wouldn't be able to continue much longer without it.
I'd reply on Summitpost myself, but I'm not registered. Best to err on the side of the worst-case...and hopefully free stuff to the finder if SAR or LEO can't connect it to anyone (I'd personally feel creeped out or ghoulish getting gear found under that circumstance).
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pacarockhound
Social climber
Escondido CA
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Sep 24, 2013 - 03:43am PT
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I look forward to hearing what HighTransverse and Split Pants have come up with re a list of what still needs to be searched.
I also am looking forward to hearing Paul Dostie's thoughts.
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jeg
Social climber
center valley,Pa
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Sep 25, 2013 - 01:00pm PT
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We spoke with the gentleman(Arnold), who spoke with Matt the Friday before he went missing. We had 2 separate conversation with him.
1st conversation....He remembers Matt showing him pictures
of climbs he had done and climbs he wanted to do. He thought there were 2 climbs Matt wanted to do before leaving Mammoth, one being in Yosemite. I asked him if Ritter, Banner, iron mountain rang a bell and he said no but he thought one did start with a B. He also said Mt Lyell did ring a bell. He did recall matt talking about climbing in the minarets and getting into some dicey situations. He said he would look through some pages on line from the Secor book before our next conversation.
2nd conversation.... He was looking through the pages in Secor's SECOND edition online. Matt had the 3rd edition.
He is 100 percent sure Matt showed him the pages 395 and 371 and that Banner and Laurel rang a bell.
He also showed him page 404(cathedral peak).
Matt spoke to him about climbs he did and climbs he wanted to do but Arnold isn't sure which were the 2 he wanted to do. We did inform him that he may have showed him cathedral because he climbed it the previous year.
Arnold truly tried his best to remember that night. We need to remember that it was 2 months ago and Arnold is a NON climber.
He really kept talking about page 371 in the second edition. He was 100% sure matt showed him this page.
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tdg119
Social climber
Northampton, PA
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Sep 25, 2013 - 02:55pm PT
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This is the photo that Amazon is showing me in the preview for Page 371 of the Secor THIRD edition book. Based on your description it sounds like a match.
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LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
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Sep 25, 2013 - 03:07pm PT
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Tiffany,
As far as I know, if you "look inside this book" for the THIRD edition of Secor, Amazon shows you pages from the SECOND edition. Look for a notice along the top of the page for the Amazon "search inside this book" results.
So that's why it's an exact match. I'm pretty sure the pagination for the 3rd edition is different (at some point managed to pull up an index for the 3rd edition somewhere).
But I assume Jill is saying that Arnold Morales said that Matt showed him the pictures that were on page 371 (Mts. Banner, Ritter, Halfdome and Clark in distance) and on page 395 (Mts. Lyell and McClure) in the second edition, not that Matt showed him pages with those numbers.
So we haven't confirmed yet that pages with those pictures are in the 3rd edition. But I bet they are -- they look kind of classic...
Bruce -- Interesting, though I assumed Jill meant Lyell when she wrote Laurel. Edit: Apparently he did mention Laurel (among other things).
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jeg
Social climber
center valley,Pa
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Sep 25, 2013 - 03:11pm PT
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Yes, LA HIKER, Pag 371 in the second edition is the same picture as page 390 in the third edition. Tiffany your picture is correct. This is the picture Arnold remembers Matt showing him. He was 100 percent positive.
He remebered the name Laurel but he also remebered the pictures on those pages.
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ß Î Ø T Ç H
Boulder climber
extraordinaire
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Sep 25, 2013 - 03:25pm PT
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Sounds like Laurel Mountain would be a good one-day solo destination from Mammoth Lakes:
Except how would Matt get to Convict Lake without wheels? There is regular bus service southbound 395, and the bus stop is right across the street from shady rest. The route would seem to have seen traffic in the last couple months tho, and noone has reported anything unusual.
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LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
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Sep 25, 2013 - 03:35pm PT
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Jill, thanks for the update on your conversations with Arnold!
Do you happen to know whether Matt showed Arnold these pictures in the book or as cut-out pages or some in the book and some as cut-out pages?
I'm guessing it was at last partly in the book because from what people have said in this thread, the Lyell pages/picture were not in the pages he cut out of the third edition of Secor.
The answer to that question might tell us whether Matt cut the pages out of the book before or after talking with Arnold. Does Arnold remember what day/days they spoke? Also, do you happen to know whether the book (with its missing pages) was found at the campground or in the car?
When you and John were climbing with him, was Matt carrying around any pages from Secor? Did he have any other maps or guidebooks? Did he tend to print info about climbs out from the library?
The answers to some of these things might help us determine how strongly Lyell not being in the pages cut from Secor implies that Lyell was not Matt's objective, and maybe how strongly the pages cut from Secor imply that his objective was the Ritter Range. (Of course, he could have gone to one of these places on Monday July 15th or something, but he didn't sign summit registers on Banner, Ritter, or Lyell.)
For instance, if Matt spoke with Arnold the weekend of the 13th/14th but all the pages were in the book, then he cut out the pages later which might more strongly imply the Ritter Range and not Lyell. On the other hand, if he'd been carrying those pages from Secor for a long time and tended to print out guides from the library, maybe the content of the pages was less crucial and his objective could have been somewhere else.
While waiting for his car to be fixed, in addition to going places within those pages, I think Matt also went other places, without apparently cutting our their Secor pages. If he had other maps or guides or was in the habit of printing climbing/hiking guides out at the library, he might have used those other sources to go various places besides those in the Secor pages.
Biotch -- Do you happen to know -- would the Laurel Mountain area have had snow in mid-July?
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kenish
Gym climber
Orange County, CA
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Sep 25, 2013 - 03:55pm PT
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It's less than a mile from Hwy 395 to the Convict Lake Resort and the TH for Mt. Laurel. Matt could take the bus as mentioned or hitch a ride with someone leaving Mammoth in the morning for LA, Bishop, etc. (We try to be on the road by 7am to miss LA traffic and have the afternoon to unpack). They could have dropped Matt off at the roadside, or detoured 10 minutes and taken him to the resort and TH.
That said, there's a trip report posted today on Mt. Laurel http://www.supertopo.com/tr/Mount-Laurel-in-an-Afternoon/t12141n.html. It doesn't look very challenging and isn't consistent with the gear that Matt presumably took with him. There's no snow in the photos or text. Laurel isn't consistent with other facts.
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10b4me
Ice climber
Soon 2B Flagstaff
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Sep 25, 2013 - 04:15pm PT
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any gully on Laurel Mtn. was melted out in July, plus is was a low snow winter.
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LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
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Sep 25, 2013 - 04:22pm PT
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Kenish and 10b4me -- thanks for clarifying re Laurel Mountain.
Jill -- It sounds like Arnold did his best to remember. But if he had scanned pages from Secor and still went to the trouble of looking at other pages online, maybe that means that he'd be willing to talk more if other questions happen to come up? It's just a thought -- I'm guessing you have a sense of how he'd feel about that.
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jeg
Social climber
center valley,Pa
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Sep 25, 2013 - 05:05pm PT
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This is the wierd thing...
Arnold said the pages were bigger than the pages that would have been ripped out of the book(book being about 5x7). He said they were photocopied(like when you flip a book over on a copy machine and you can see the binder)and they were on bigger sheets than 5X7. Why would he rip out the same pages that were photocopied???
Mt. lyell is still intact in matt's book.
He spoke to him on Friday 7/12. his brother saw him Sunday night at the camp site with his headlight on but did not talk to him.
Other pages were ripped out of his book but placed back in(Palisades area, cathedral, unicorn),climbs he did in the previous days/year.
I believe the detective found the book at the campsite.
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kenish
Gym climber
Orange County, CA
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Sep 25, 2013 - 05:29pm PT
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@jeg- It makes more sense that the pages Matt copied are intact in the book, not ones that were ripped out and re-inserted. Without jumping to conclusions, that still supports Mt. Lyell, which is intact. (Maybe I misunderstood the wording of your post).
I believe the timeline placed Matt at the library the afternoon before. Since he had easy access to a copier it would make sense that he would copy pages rather than tear them out....less paper to carry and less trauma to the book.
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LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
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Sep 25, 2013 - 06:14pm PT
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Kenish, I agree that the discovery that Matt seems to have photocopied pages of Secor as well as cutting them out gives a boost to Lyell and potentially to many other places.
However, if I recall correctly, 30 pages (those corresponding to the Ritter Range) were missing from his copy of Secor 3rd edition when it was retrieved. And assuming Arnold is right about the photocopied pages, those have been retrieved, either. So the question is why the pages were both cut out and photocopied. (Matt showed Arnold the photocopied pages on Friday, the 12th, so if he copied them at the library, it must have been on an earlier visit than on the 16th.) Who knows, Matt might have copied other things on the 16th...
Jill, I agree that that's weird. Did Matt ever show Arnold the book itself, or just photocopied pages? Was the picture of Lyell also among the photocopied pages he showed Arnold?
I can think of a few possible scenarios, none of which make complete sense:
1. Contrary to his previous practice, Matt didn't initially cut the 30 pages out of Secor (maybe he thought that was just too big a chunk? too many little pages? maybe he wanted bigger margins or backs on which to make notes?) but instead photocopied the pages -- and maybe others, such as the one on Lyell -- and then showed them to Arnold. At some point after that, the photocopies got messed up or lost so then he cut the same pages out of the book.
2. At some point before the 12th, Matt photocopied some of the 30 pages in Secor, as well as the one on Lyell, but didn't copy the whole shebang. Then he decided he needed some missing pages, so for consistency he just cut them all out of the book. (This doesn't seem that likely -- why not copy all of them to start with -- but might happen if he'd forgotten to take the book to the library or something.) Did Arnold say whether Matt appeared to have copied a big chunk of the book, or just a few pages?
3. Matt photocopied the pages from Secor, gave or shared them with someone else, and then cut out the pages for his own use.
4. Matt initially cut the pages out of Secor 3rd edition, lost them or they got messed up, and then (before the 12th) photocopied replacement pages from one of the the library's copies of Secor. (The library appears to have two copies of Secor 2nd edition. So then he would have had that rather than 3rd edition.)
4. Matt cut the pages out of Secor first and then arranged them on the copier to make a copy that consisted of fewer sheets of paper. (This doesn't make sense because what happened to the pages he cut out? He didn't put them back in the book. Also, that wouldn't really look the same as if you opened a book and pressed it down a copier. And unless you made back-to-back copies you'd end up with more total paper than you started with.)
5. ???
When you and John were climbing and hiking with Matt, what sorts of maps and guides did y'all use, besides Secor? Did Matt bring cut-out pages from Secor with him? Did he ever make copies or printouts of other things at the library?
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kenish
Gym climber
Orange County, CA
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Sep 25, 2013 - 06:37pm PT
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@LA- Although Ritter Range pages are torn out, Mt. Lyell (not part of the Ritters) is intact in the book according to jeg . And it's what Arnold recalls could have been on the photocopied page(s) that Matt showed him.
On a tangent- why would Matt discuss the pages with a non-climber? Just being friendly, Matt as a teacher getting someone aware and enthused in the sport, etc? Was the nature of the conversation "Here's interesting places in the Sierras", "Here's where I plan to go next","Here's where I went last week"??
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LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
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Sep 25, 2013 - 06:46pm PT
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Kenish -- it's true that the Lyell page was in the photocopies, but so was at least one page with a picture from the Ritter Range -- the one of routes up Ritter and Banner with Clark and Half-Dome in the background that Tiffany just posted. And was Arnold and Matt's discussion of his dicey moments in the Minarets sparked by pages about the Minarets?
But yes, I think it's noteworthy that Matt had a photocopy of at least one page that was still intact in the book.
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kenish
Gym climber
Orange County, CA
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Sep 25, 2013 - 06:58pm PT
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@LA- true....
Did Matt leave any photocopied pages at his campsite or in his car? I'm sure jeg would have mentioned it though. Random papers left at the campsite could have been discarded instead of being put into storage when the site was abandoned.
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jeg
Social climber
center valley,Pa
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Sep 25, 2013 - 08:36pm PT
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He was invited to have dinner with arnold and his family at the camp site. July 12th was the second time they talked and that is when Matt started telling arnold about his climbs. Arnold seems like a very friendly guy who stirred up a conversation with matt.
Arnold did not recall a book just papers. We do not remember finding any loose papers of photo copied climbs.
Tiffany...did you see any in that brown paper bag???
My husband just remembers matt having the ripped out papers of climbs.
Arnold was really focused on that page 371 and not so much on Lyell.
He thinks he remembers page 395 but doesn't remeber that big glacier/snowfield on page 394 of Lyell Mountain.
He did show him some picturs of the Minarets when he spoke about them.
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Supermama
Social climber
pa
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Sep 25, 2013 - 08:59pm PT
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Sorry I've been away. Work and grad school obligations have been mounting and needed attention. Interesting evidence gathered. I was hoping Arnold would have had more information. It makes sense that he photocopied either to share or lighten his load when climbing. Jill and John may remember his previous habits.
Tiffany...any luck with the Hotmail account? Since he spent the day before in the library, I still think there is a good chance there may be evidence in emails that may help to locate Matt.
Bethlehem, Matt's home town, is hosting the Nazareth/Freedom football game this weekend. The hosting high school is having a green out in honor of Matt. This was their idea and a very kind gesture. Two communities coming together as one to remember an incredible teacher and person. I thought you would all like to know how much Matt meant to his school and community. Stay strong and search on!
Supermama
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LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
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Sep 26, 2013 - 01:03pm PT
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Tioga, thanks for the insight. The second scenario, in which Matt might have taken both copies on purpose, makes more sense to me, because (unless you photocopy a different copy of the book) you have to make the copies first, otherwise you'd end up photocopying your worn cut-out pages...
But when considering where he might have gone, it's also interesting that he photocopied at least one page that wasn't cut out of the book.
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LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
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Sep 26, 2013 - 02:01pm PT
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Tioga -- makes sense. From Jill's description of what Arnold said, though, it sounds like for at least some of the pages, it looked like the book had been opened up and placed directly on the copier.
In any event, I'd say that (in conjunction with his conversation with Arnold) this would indicate that Matt had a fairly strong interest in the pages that were copied and possibly an even stronger interest in those that were both copied and cut out.
But that's still a lot of pages and a big area, so any additional evidence we can get, whether from Matt's conversation with Arnold, from his email accounts, from the library router, etc. -- would be helpful.
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pacarockhound
Social climber
Escondido CA
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Sep 26, 2013 - 04:08pm PT
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But that's still a lot of pages and a big area, so any additional evidence we can get, whether from Matt's conversation with Arnold, from his email accounts, from the library router, etc. -- would be helpful. -LA Hiker
Yes, that is what will be helpful:
1. Any more info from Arnold
2. Matt's Hotmail account (and another one?)
3. Library router
4. anything else?
Wondering if Paul Dostie has any insights, and if any hikers are going out this wkend, and where.....
I have posted Find Matt Greene flyer onto about 50 hiker/nature/etc. facebook pages....
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Dan Watson
climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Sep 26, 2013 - 05:07pm PT
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The Mono County District Attorney's Office was queried about obtaining a search warrant or subpoena for the computer records from the Library in Mammoth Lakes that was used by Matt. Some believe that the sites he checked could provide some clues to where he was headed. Due to confidentiality laws, the Library could not release this information.
A representative of the DA's Office responded that there is no authority to issue a search warrant or subpoena for a missing person investigation.
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Supermama
Social climber
pa
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Sep 26, 2013 - 06:09pm PT
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Dan...is this true for the Hotmail account on a home computer as well?
I had someone stalking me a few years ago and the chief of police was able to get a subpoena to release the phone and cell phone records. The man was caught and convicted thanks to the phone records.
Matt isn't able to do this himself, so shouldn't his next of kin be able to request this? This is an emergency, not someone who decided to go into hiding. Is there any way around this?
Supermama
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Dan Watson
climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Sep 26, 2013 - 06:37pm PT
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If you were being stalked, Supermama, the circumstances were substantially different. That involved a criminal investigation and search warrants of phone records and e-mails accounts can be obtained. According to our District Attorney's Office, there is no legal authority for issuing a search warrant for a missing person investigation. I'm just going by what our DA communicated to our detective.
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Supermama
Social climber
pa
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Sep 26, 2013 - 06:51pm PT
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Dan...Thanks...This is so sad...would Pa authorities have the same answer for a home computer? Is this consistent throughout the country? Should Tiffany and Ron try the Pa authorities? Other than physically searching this is the last hope for any clues as to where Matt went.
Supermama
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LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
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Sep 26, 2013 - 06:57pm PT
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Chief Watson, thanks for looking into this!
With respect to the library router records, sometimes states differ in their rules and approaches -- maybe a Pennsylvania DA would have a different take in relation to the missing person search that was opened there?
Regarding Matt's Hotmail account, if the Pennsylvania missing person search doesn't help there as well, QITNL posted a link here to Microsoft's "next of kin" process, which allows for the release of emails to the next of kin of someone who has died or is incapacitated. Though Microsoft has not been very helpful so far, perhaps at this point they could be convinced (by family members or media attention) to apply that process to Matt's account.
Edit: It looks like Supermama and I were thinking along similar lines.
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pacarockhound
Social climber
Escondido CA
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Sep 26, 2013 - 10:40pm PT
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I am thinking if Bethlehem PA police filed the Missing Person report, and Matt is a member of their community, they might be more invested in making all this happen....?
If it comes down to media pressure, would the Bethlehem/Lehigh Valley newspapers have more influence than those in Mammoth Lakes...? (I have some connections at the Allentown Morning Call. I would be happy to contact them if that is what you decide to do.)
Or even better, national news.....such as Anderson Cooper or Rachel Maddow.
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kenish
Gym climber
Orange County, CA
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Sep 26, 2013 - 11:23pm PT
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About a month ago I asked a paralegal friend here in CA how to obtain cell phone and email records.
Her advice matched Chief Watson's....also, she suggested the family get a Court Order. Recipient(s) must adhere to the Order regardless of any contracts, privacy policies, etc. She said the best bet is through a CA court. CA will honor Orders from another state due to reciprocal agreements. But it could take a lot of paperwork between states; she wasn't sure about PA. I posted her reply here, or sent a message to family or helpers in PA, don't recall which. That said, I'm not a legal expert but my friend is the "investigator" at her office and has a lot of "skip trace" experience.
Hope this helps.
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tdg119
Social climber
Northampton, PA
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Sep 27, 2013 - 09:08am PT
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Last I talked to Detective Toronzi (PA Detective), he had gone through the case file and called me to follow up.
He issued a formal letter to the library asking them to detain the information on the server for the date in question until the necessary legal paperwork could be completed. That said, I do not know how far he's gotten with said legal paperwork.
When I spoke with him he was going to try some alternative avenues to get the other info (phone, email) prior to going through the process of search warrants. He was going to have one of the departments techies investigate the email further. Likewise, they were going to call Verizon and see where that got them.
This may work, it may not. They are doing what they can and no doubt have some sort of process they are adhering to.
I really do hope they don't run into the same issues w/ getting a warrant for the library info that CA did. If we run into the same issue in PA I will find a way to take it higher; it really sounds ridiculous to me.
I've heard many suggestions (namely on Facebook) about getting the story out there on Anderson or Nancy Grace. Believe me, I have tried to no avail. Media picks and chooses what it wants to display. We were lucky to even have gotten so far as national news for those few days.
In light of the snowfall in Mammoth Lakes, it's too dangerous for anyone to go out right now anyways so we can hope to obtain some info in time for the next "warm-up" that might allow some searches to more safety take a look.
~ Tiffany
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Ikat
Social climber
Carson City
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Sep 27, 2013 - 12:43pm PT
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This is so distressing to hear the legal contortions the family has to go through to get any information about their missing son / brother.
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Deekaid
climber
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Sep 27, 2013 - 03:08pm PT
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I agree... you can bet if they suspected Matt of committing a crime they would have access to those records like that
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pacarockhound
Social climber
Escondido CA
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Sep 27, 2013 - 04:58pm PT
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Tiffany et al,
If the Bethlehem police can't make progress fast, I wonder if National Public Radio (NPR) based in ? Philadelphia? would take this on. Or Rachel Maddow.....
I am thinking a show that thinks outside the box....
Cragman, that is a beautiful photo. Can you predict when it might be safe to search?
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Supermama
Social climber
pa
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Sep 27, 2013 - 08:57pm PT
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Hi Everyone...Green out at the football game tonight! The hosting team is in Bethlehem, Matt's home town, and wanted to show their support to Matt's family, students and colleagues. Hopefully the news will cover it.
Cragman...great photo...how could something so beautiful be so treacherous? Is that what attracts climbers? Looking at this picture reminds me of looking up into the night sky on a crisp autumn night and wondering how we survive in such a vast universe. It's amazing...
Tiffany...more money was raised today at our school for the search relief. Also, the t-shirt fundraiser ended today as well. If there is anything else we can do, please let me know. We are all thinking of you and your family.
Supermama
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Bad Climber
climber
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Sep 27, 2013 - 11:48pm PT
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Nice to see a little Henry D. Matthew went too soon, but likely he went the way must of us would like to go, in the mountains, that is. I suppose we may never know what happened, which has gotta be hard for his family and friends. Last year I read The Last Season about a back country ranger who disappeared. Even with a massive search, it took a long, long time to find him.
RIP Mr. Green
BAd
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Supermama
Social climber
pa
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Sep 28, 2013 - 08:41am PT
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Cragman...if only everyone could learn how to sing. Beautiful...
stzzo...thanks for the offer. If you do any searching, please let split pants know so she can mark the map of places searched. Please be careful and let someone know where you are climbing.
Supermama
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pacarockhound
Social climber
Escondido CA
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Sep 28, 2013 - 06:15pm PT
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Tioga, thanks for sharing your thoughts and experience.
My father used to go to the White Mtns. of NH every summer for a week by himself to decompress and rejuvenate.
I have been thinking about the difference between Mammoth mountains and the Lehigh Valley mountains where Matt (and I) grew up....I may find a photo...
It is comforting to know that an injured person (and animal I suppose) often goes into shock....
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LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
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Sep 28, 2013 - 07:10pm PT
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Tiffany, thanks for the update about the Pennsylvania detective. Though it’s frustrating that this is taking so long, I find it encouraging that they’re continuing to pursue the Hotmail account and library router records by various means. I hope that they realize that the fall search window is very limited and that their efforts bear fruit quickly.
(My suggestion of media pressure was meant only if no headway could be made going through the authorities first.)
Cragman, thanks for the photo and the update about the weather around Mammoth. Brrr!
I hope that at least at lower elevations the snow has pretty much melted. A Meetup group from southern California was doing a long dayhike there today, going from Agnew Meadows to Thousand Island Lake, down to Garnet Lake, and back to Agnew. I posted some info about Matt on their event page, though it sounds like their route was more northerly than Matt’s would have been if he’d been making a beeline to Ediza Lake and the Ritter/Banner area.
Tioga, thanks for your thoughts on being injured in the wilderness – they’re reassuring. I appreciate everyone’s reflections on why we go out into nature...
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pacarockhound
Social climber
Escondido CA
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Sep 28, 2013 - 07:29pm PT
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Supermama
Social climber
pa
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Sep 29, 2013 - 11:22am PT
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Thanks Cragman...stunning pictures.
Hopefully the weather will stay mild now.
Pacarockhound...a very familiar sight. Simple yet beautiful. The fall foliage is just beginning to show its color. A few more weeks and it will be a spectacular display.
Stzzo...Please let us know if you were able to get in any hiking this weekend. Thank you!
Supermama
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pacarockhound
Social climber
Escondido CA
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Sep 30, 2013 - 02:31am PT
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Beautiful!
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OutdoorGal
Social climber
Lehigh Valley, PA
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Sep 30, 2013 - 02:31pm PT
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So was there a consensus opinion on areas to search based on the Morales info? Or was it determined he couldn't provide enough to go on? From his comment that he remembered a "B" place and that Banner rang a bell and was on the page he identifed in the Secor book, I wondered about Banner peak. Has that been focused on at all in the searches so far?
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crankster
Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
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Sep 30, 2013 - 03:17pm PT
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I am not aware of any searches currently being conducted. Cragman searched near Banner in early Sept.
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pacarockhound
Social climber
Escondido CA
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Sep 30, 2013 - 04:19pm PT
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I haven't been able to get a clear picture/response re that:
Cragman just hiked somewhere up Ritter Range two days ago. David Husted hiked farther west this past week but I haven't heard anything from him. Several people have said they were in Mammoth and how could they help...but at least from my end, I don't know where things stand.....
Some people are indicating that the search is too dangerous at this time of year with snow, etc. Others seem to say that it is possible.
Perhaps on the google search map it is current....it took me awhile to understand how to use this, but now that I can I am so impressed. However, I can't get clear on west side or east side of Banner, whether they were searched....
Banner sounds right to me.......
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OutdoorGal
Social climber
Lehigh Valley, PA
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Sep 30, 2013 - 08:59pm PT
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Thanks, Cragman. I had read your reports but hadn't remembered whether you had searched Banner. In your opinion is there more ground on that peak that should be covered?
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Hikesfortheview
Social climber
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I have been following but haven't seen that link before? I hope he or his photos can help.
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tdg119
Social climber
Northampton, PA
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Good find pradiata - would be nice if that person recalls seeing Matt somewhere.
I'm going to share two pictures of notebook paper with some areas Matt appears to have considered - this could be something he wrote up before even going out west and without being familiar with the area, I am unsure how much hiking versus climbing these areas offer. BUT I still wanted to share as he lists pros and cons for each one so yet another chance to get inside his head a bit.
There is also a tourist map where he'd circled right around Sherwin Plaza. I could not find much in the way of what businesses are there. I highly, highly doubt it's anything, but again, figured I'd share.
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Dan Watson
climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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The place circled on the map is where the Bristle Cone apartments are located. Just to the left of the circle is a small shopping center with a couple of restaurants and other businesses.
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kenish
Gym climber
Orange County, CA
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Also note on the map there is a pen mark in the intersection of Main and Old Mammoth over the traffic light icon. You would turn in that direction to go between Sherman Plaza and the car repair shop (or a lot of other businesses).
We don't know how exact the circle was drawn, but it marks a Thai restaurant, and also Skadi Restaurant, which doesn't seem like Matt's style: http://skadirestaurant.com/ Ironically, the MLPD station is nearby too. There's a ski shop and used bookstore across Chateau from the circle.
Tip: If you use Google Maps and the Street View feature, you can do a "virtual walk" of most streets in Mammoth.
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jeg
Social climber
center valley,Pa
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Our first night in Mammoth , we met Matt at that Thai restaurant and it was his choice to go there.
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kenish
Gym climber
Orange County, CA
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we met Matt at that Thai restaurant and it was his choice to go there.
My post 2 above was poorly worded. I meant that Skadi seemed to not fit Matt's style (but you know him best, and me not at all).
It sounds like the circle was for the Thai place: http://www.thaidup.net/ Do you know if he was a "regular"? I wonder if any of the staff recall Matt, or if a customer struck up a conversation with him? You'd think they would see and respond to the flyers, though.
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Hikesfortheview
Social climber
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Well, that answers THAT mystery. As a side note, I saw climbers are looking for alternate plans since Yosemite is closed. That may mean more hikers/climbers in Mammoth?
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10b4me
Ice climber
Soon 2B Flagstaff
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^^^national forests are closed also.
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LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
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While national forests are closed, one can still get into the Inyo National Forest, at least according to the person who answered the phone at the Mammoth Lakes Welcome Center this morning. The guy said that the Welcome Center was already closed and that facilities such as bathrooms in the National Forest would be closed, but that the road from Mammoth towards Devil's Postpile would still be open.
(One of the worst things about this shutdown is that it's hard to get info about its extent because those who would know are no longer there!)
But I've heard that though entrances to national parks and such have been closed, if a regular road goes into or through a national park or forest, one can apparently use it. The Inyo National Forest seems quite porous.
Edit: Fixed typo.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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National Forest are closed...
Which ones? Sequoia Nat Forest is wide open. All FS employees except fire and LEOs are on furlough, But at least for now you can drive on up to The Needles etc. and go climbing.
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LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
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Perhaps I should have said "officially closed" = no services, maybe no bathrooms, etc. I didn't necessarily mean "can't get into it" closed.
There may be some places, however, where some access roads are closed. For instance, it wouldn't surprise me if down here, in the nearby Angeles National Forest, the road to Chantry Flats had a bar across it -- it often does. But I don't know for sure, and short of going there it's hard to find out.
But the guy at the now-closed Mammoth Lakes Welcome Center specifically said that Minaret Summit road to Red's Meadow was open.
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jeg
Social climber
center valley,Pa
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The list of climbs was a list Matt had with him that he and John were considering doing during there trip.
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LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
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Tiffany,
Thanks for posting the pages of notes. Makes sense that the list of climbs was made before the trip – they make the assumption that one has a car. I’m sure they will mean much more to the climbers here, who will be able to tell, for instance, whether most of these climbs are usually done with a partner. Here are some observations from a non-climber.
-Very methodical guy, listing advantages and disadvantages of each climb!
-These appear to be for rock climbing routes in or around the Sierras – travel on snow or glaciers doesn’t appear to be mentioned. But as you say, they may help us figure out his thinking…
-Did Matt climb Fairview Dome and Bear Creek Spire on a previous trip? For those two, “done it before” is listed as a drawback.
-Advantages mentioned include classic climb, fun and easy for the grade, easy approach, the presence of other route options.
-Disadvantages mentioned include crowding, not being more than a scramble, done it before, long or difficult approach.
Were Matt’s notes in any sort of order, so one could tell which came first and which came later?
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Dan Watson
climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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As of now, due to the government shutdown, the road to Devil's Postpile and Red's meadow is open to the public. The booth at the top of Minaret Vista is closed so you can drive through. The USFS campgrounds and rest rooms are all locked up. All employees except Forest Service fire and law enforcement are furloughed. Access to the back country is still good, pending weather conditions which are forecast to be clear for the next 10 days.
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kenish
Gym climber
Orange County, CA
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Using combined knowledge of the terrain and Matt, can the list be sorted from most to least probable? (On the premise that some places may have a very small probability, but never zero).
Based on evidence, any place that's impractical to do in a single day without a car is very unlikely. "Done it before" are a less likely than new climbs, etc. What climbs on the list become the most likely?
Also, which of these climbs (unlikely or not) match up with torn out pages in his book, or photocopies?
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pacarockhound
Social climber
Escondido CA
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Re Thai restaurant being circled on the map Matt had -
can someone in Mammoth make sure there is a flyer there, or speak to the people who work there to see if anyone spoke to Matt?
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pacarockhound
Social climber
Escondido CA
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from Helga Walther, Oct 1st :
Someone posted on Supertopo that a hiker had written a trip report to the Minarets during the days Matt was there. I looked it up and "Anonymous" had already asked that hiker Andy (bottom of trip report) if he could contact the search team on Supertopo about possibly having met Matt on the trail. I added a post saying saying it would be great if this person did. He replied to my post and to Anonymous saying the following: Hi Anonymous. Thanks for your comment. I have been following the search for Matt on highsierratopix.com. Maverick, one of the moderators at HST, did an extensive search of the area and he posted details online. I didn't see anything while I was out there. I sincerely hope that he is found. Thanks
Replies
Andy DOctober 1, 2013 at 2:29 PM
Hello Helga. I have been following the search on highsierratopix.com. I didn't see anything while I was there. I sincerely hope that he is found. Thanks, Andy.
COULD SOMEONE PASS THIS INFO ON TO THE SUPERTOPO GROUP SINCE I AM NOT SIGNED UP THERE. Thanks. Helga
Sorry if I missed this, but where did Maverick search and has it been included on google map of areas searched?
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LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
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Hi Pacarockhound,
I think Andy D, the author of the trip report to the Minarets on "Sea to summit ultralight" (not here; his report was mentioned upthread) may have been mistaken about Maverick doing an extensive search in the area.
A search of HighSierraTopix shows that Maverick did participate in that site's long thread on Matt, in which various searches were described -- maybe that's what Andy D was thinking about? Here's the thread -- I think most of the same searches are reported here and that we have them on the map:
http://www.highsierratopix.com/community/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=9790
But Maverick is also on here, you could ask him. :)
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pacarockhound
Social climber
Escondido CA
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Hello Maverick,
Where have you searched and has it been included on the google map of places search and not searched?
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maverick01
climber
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Have not gone up, had planned to but haven't been able
to get time off from work. (2 jobs, very hard to get time off)
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pacarockhound
Social climber
Escondido CA
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maverick01 - understood!
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Vegasclimber
Trad climber
Las Vegas, NV.
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Sorry to come home and see there still hasn't been any resolution...was hoping something would turn up while I was away.
Though I didn't know Matt, I have been really bummed about this. On Friday 9/27/13, I left a note for Matt on the summit of Kilimanjaro. Berg heil, adventurer.
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maverick01
climber
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Finally getting a few days off and am in the process of
putting together a search team of HST members for the
16-20th, if weather cooperates.
If any Supertopo members are interested in joining please
contact me via PM. This may be one of the last chances of
pulling off a larger search before some major system comes
in and closes everything down for the season.
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tdg119
Social climber
Northampton, PA
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Detective Toronzi managed to get the library records. I don't know how he managed it; he did say it was difficult and he had to go through hoops.
They are very tedious to go through - every ad, picture, element of a page is all listed. Hard to find the actual content. Plus it's 25,000 pages of data for one day.
In any case, it was still very easy to find Matt's session. It started around 10:50 am PST - he logged on and started looking at the school district website where he teaches.
I followed that entire one hour session and think I was pretty thorough - I'm at about page 10,000 of the 25,000 trying to find if he bought another session (every PC is listed separate so it could be much further down depending what machine...and that's IF he bought another session)
Anyways, here are some of the links he visited besides the water intoxication post - that post was actually at the end of his session.
http://www.summitpost.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=65684
http://www.mountainproject.com/v/best-improvised-rope-solo-setup/108243432
http://www.mountainproject.com/v/is-philly-a-climbers-city/108185033__2
http://www.mountainproject.com/v/lost-gear-on-madame-g/108236942
http://www.mountainproject.com/v/what-to-climb-at-lovers-leap/108244290
http://www.summitpost.org/phpBB3/recent-u-and-v-notch-conditions-end-of-july-t65668.html **
**I am fairly certain he sent and/or received an email through Summitpost to someone at this point - relative tags are there indicating he did.
In addition, there was a search on medical issues - most likely minor irritations - there was one search on Plantar Warts and another on Hammer Toe. In conjunction with the one one Hammer Toe (possibly), there was an unsuccessful search on one of the climbing sites on "Boot lacing Techniques".
Aside from the above, he researched his trip to Colorado. He was obviously anxious to move on. He got driving directions from Mammoth Lakes to Sand Dunes National Park, Mosca Colorado. He also looked up a handful of climbs to do out there. I didn't write down all those.
Last but not least, he looked up the NewBelgium brewing company in CO. He appears to have placed an order for something in the online shop. Could have just been a gift certificate or something. There was also a relative search to find local joints that serve the beer: http://www.newbelgium.com/beer/locator.aspx
You'll see if you pop in Mammoth Lakes there's only about 3 places that serve it in house, and then a few more where you can carry it out.
Unfortunately that's all I've come across at this point. Wanted to keep everyone in the loop though. My thoughts after looking through is that he was just killing time at the library. He didn't seem to be focused on a local destination.
Detective Toronzi has also submitted a court order for the phone records but that may take longer to get.
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kenish
Gym climber
Orange County, CA
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Great new info, though it calls into question the library's early comments about the unavailability of the info. Even if the web browsing doesn't have any revelations, it will put that uncertainty to rest.
BTW the brewery website comes up with 23 locations in town that serve or sell the brand...even the Shell station and Rite-Aid are listed! The brewery website says that tour tickets have to be reserved in advance. http://www.newbelgium.com/brewery/tasting-room/visit-us.aspx Could that be what Matt "ordered"? They are in Ft. Collins (north of Denver)
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Supermama
Social climber
pa
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tdg119...Wow Tiffany! Great job! You have been very busy. I'll take a look at what you have posted. If you need help, please pm me. I am writing a lit review for my thesis, but should be finished tomorrow.
maverick01
Awesome offer to help organize a search party! October 16th-20th...can anyone else join in? Do you want this posted on other climbing forums? I can help with that. Just give me the word.
Supermama
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kenish
Gym climber
Orange County, CA
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FYI Supermama, there's a chance of snow this Wed. and more likely rain. Hope the weather holds for a physical search.
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Supermama
Social climber
pa
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Kenish...let's hope the weather cooperates. Keep me posted.
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maverick01
climber
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Yes, please do post Supermama, I have posted on Whitneyzone and Rockcreek Forum.
I am aware of the weather, if there is significant snow on the ground or a system
within 2 days of our exit, I will call this search off, safety of our group is my number
one concern. Mav
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pacarockhound
Social climber
Escondido CA
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maverick 01 Is there any point in inviting people to search from facebook pages of hiking groups? I sent out MattGreenemissing poster several weeks ago to many places. Perhaps you know the best places/people to invite....
Do you plan to go anywhere near the Rettenbacher's grave site? I think that is the west side of Banner...
Vegasclimber, that is wonderful that you left a note for Matt on Mt Kilimanjaro (sp?). Do you have a photo of that you could post here?
Tiffany, glad you got some info re internet searches Matt did at library. Perhaps there will be info soon re his Hotmail account....
Tiffany and family, I know how hard it must be to keep up the energy to move forward with gathering information, at the same time that you are missing Matt. My thoughts are with you.
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maverick01
climber
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We need to get the word out every way possible and not limit ourselves to any
particular forums, many folks cancel at the last moment. We also need local folks
to transport us from the Mammoth Lodge to the trailhead, and pick us up Sunday
afternoon because of the goverment shutdown.
Need folks to please answer the following questions and include the answers when
sending requests to come on board.
Level of experience:
1- Backpacking on trail
2- Backpacking with some xcountry experience class 1-2)
3- Backpacking with xcountry experience (class 2-3), good, navigational skills
4- Backpacking with xcountry experience (class 3), peakbagging, snow travel
(climbing), glacier travel
Do you have any emergency signal devices: SPOT, SatPhone, PLB
Do you have a GPS?
Are you familiar with the Minarets? If yes, what areas have you been to, camped or climbed?
How many days can you come for?
List any medical (doctor, nurse, EMT, wilderness first aid course), SAR, law enforcement, or
military background?
We need all levels of people, the Shadow to Ediza corridor needs to be combed too.
Thanks,
Peter
PS Contact info pagoston@prioryca.org
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pacarockhound
Social climber
Escondido CA
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Maverick01 - This is a partial list of facebook pages I sent mattgreene missing poster to. I will include your above list of questions re hiking experience, etc. and tell them to contact you ----- where?
Mountainesque
Appalachian Trail (4 or 5 sites)
San Gorgonio Wilderness Assoc
Hundred Peaks assoc
The High Sierra
MLA
John Muir Trail
San Diego Hiking Group
Pacific Crest Trail
Backpacking
Mt Whitney
Calif Mountaineering Group
West Coast Mountains
Sierra Mountains Group
a bunch of nature groups
How about Mammoth newspaper?
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tdg119
Social climber
Northampton, PA
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Peter - should we ask for volunteers on Facebook? Do you need any gear?
1. Water purification tablets, water filter straws, micro filters, etc.
2. Compass, GPS (Inyo wilderness)
3. Trail tape, marker
4. Powerbars, MREs, Beverage pkgs, emergency food, etc.
5. Hex heater, stoves, etc.
6. Fire starters (wp matches, mag, etc.)
7. Binoculars
8. Tent, Bivy, Ponchos, etc.
9. Bear Cans
10. Water Bottles, camelbacks, etc.
11. Radios
12. Backpacks, dry sacks, etc.
13. Survival knifes
14. Medical/first aid kits
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crankster
Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
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A view of the Ritter Range from Minaret Summit Oct. 5, 2013
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granite_girl
Trad climber
Oakland
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Probably not relevant to anything, but since tdg mentioned that it was part of the search history, it might be useful to know that New Belgium Brewing Company is a sponsor of the Dirtbag Diaries, a podcast available through iTunes. This is a podcast that someone like Matt is likely to have been familiar with.
Matt may have been googling New Belgium because he recently heard a reference to it through the podcast, or maybe they were sponsoring a deal.
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maverick01
climber
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Peter - should we ask for volunteers on Facebook? Do you need any gear?
1. Water purification tablets, water filter straws, micro filters, etc.
2. Compass, GPS (Inyo wilderness)
3. Trail tape, marker
4. Powerbars, MREs, Beverage pkgs, emergency food, etc.
5. Hex heater, stoves, etc.
6. Fire starters (wp matches, mag, etc.)
7. Binoculars
8. Tent, Bivy, Ponchos, etc.
9. Bear Cans
10. Water Bottles, camelbacks, etc.
11. Radios
12. Backpacks, dry sacks, etc.
13. Survival knifes
14. Medical/first aid kits
Yes, use any media you can, forums have slowed down for the season. Anyone
volunteering needs to have backpacking experience, and they should already
have a lot of those basic items, thanks for you offer.
My main concern besides getting plenty of searchers is this system moving in later
this week, not the strength of it, but it may lay enough snow for the NFS and NPS to
close roads which they would usually do not do this early, but because of the gov
shutdown there will be no one to plough the roads if needed. Without the NF and NPS
sites being up it will be hard to get an update of the road conditions unless locals
check on the roads for us.
Let's hope for a warming trend starting this coming weekend and lasting through the
following one.
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maverick01
climber
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For those who have inquired about the search, and those who
may be considering it, please let me stress that if there is
a weather system due in before, during, or within 2 days of
our planned exit, the search will be called off. Let me strongly
emphasis again that safety here is my top priority, and I do
not intend to expose folks to any additional risks beyond the
ones already associated with this endeavor.
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Supermama
Social climber
pa
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Maverick01...I will post the information...Please let me know if anything changes so I can repost changes if necessary.
Tiffany...do you want his on facebook?
Please be careful!
Supermama
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Supermama
Social climber
pa
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Maverick01 and Tiffany...I think we should make a flyer for search party volunteers. I have taken the information I have from Maverick, but need more details:
When: time of arrival
Where: Physical meeting place
Do you want to have a brief meeting with all of the volunteers first? Did you contact Dan Watson to let him know? He may have a few suggestions. I can type something up and send it to both of you to see what you think.
May I add Cragman's climbing criteria as well? People need to know what they are up against.
Please let me know if you want me to work on this.
Supermama
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maverick01
climber
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Cragman wrote:
The areas that need to be searched are beyond just "backpacker
experience." Technical climbing experience should be there too,
as the terrain is treacherous.
Maverick01, be careful with what you are doing....this kind of
terrain is not for MOST people.
Yes, understand your concern Cragman, which is why I am requesting
for searchers to include their experience levels. If all we get is
folks in the level 2-3 range, then they will search in such areas
accordingly, and not be placed or asked to do anything above their
experience levels.
Thanks,
Mav
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Kalimon
Social climber
Ridgway, CO
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What is the level 2-3 range? Never heard of that one unless you are referring to 2nd-3rd class terrain.
Thank you Cragman for trying to talk some sense into these folks.
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pacarockhound
Social climber
Escondido CA
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While it is true that I have never been to Mammoth Lakes, there are scenarios (that have been discussed) in which Matt had an accident in more low laying areas, before he ever reached mountain heights. It seems like a hundred volunteers covering meadows etc wouldn't be enough to cover possible areas.
Since Maverick is requiring volunteers to inform him of their experience and abilities beforehand, he can assign them to the appropriate area based on that.
That sounds safe enough to me.
I think it is admirable that Maverick is gathering volunteers, granted at different levels, and that they will conduct a last search before the winter (assuming the weather cooperates.)
It would be wonderful to get closure on the mystery of Matt's disappearance.
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Kalimon
Social climber
Ridgway, CO
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Leave your "trail tape" at home . . . the last thing the Sierra need is more human impact.
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Gene
climber
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That sounds safe enough to me.
My respectful advice is to be careful. Be very careful in the Ritter Range and even its approaches this time of year. The mountains can be unforgiving. We all know that.
Wishing all touched by Matt the best,
g
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crankster
Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
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I follow High Sierra Topix and it seems to me Peter, aka, Maverick, has a good handle on SAR and Ritter Range environs. His posts on the search for Matt make a lot of sense. Obviously, the #1 priority is not contributing to a situation that adds additional victims.
The fact is, there's not one solid clue as to Matt's specific destination, or whether he even reached it. Matt may have experienced an accident/incident on low/moderate terrain on the approach or descent. People with cross-country experience could be just as useful as experienced climbers.
This assumes everyone is using SAR protocol of communication, etc,.
Cragman, I understand your points. I'm only suggesting people with strong backcountry skills who are not technical climbers could search off-trail/approach/descent areas.
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kenish
Gym climber
Orange County, CA
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I will butt in, huge apologies in advance but I have to speak up.
Organizing people by their self-assessed ability, compiling equipment lists, etc. is futile at best and sets the stage for grim consequences at worst. Anyone needing to answer those questions for an "organizer" or for themselves is not qualified by default. (I've done a lot of backpacking, a little climbing, and know the Sierras well. I also know that I'm completely unqualified for the task). Posting to other websites is great. Once aware of the situation, anyone with the ability and heart to volunteer (like Cragman and everyone else who's put in effort) will come forward without being asked.
Maverick and Supermama, be aware that you assume legal liability by merely organizing this activity. It sounds borderline ridiculous but sadly, it's the times we all live in. Anyone involved is exposed; well-meaning people have been sued after a "volunteer" effort ended badly. Piles of waivers won't help. Cragman's comment may be due to feeling a legal and an ethical burden would be forced on him.
A search team of climbers trusts their lives to other team members- in the most literal sense. That trust is built over months and years...and not with total strangers who self-assessed their abilities online.
There also seems to a lack of understanding of how truly rugged and unforgiving the terrain is. Totally understandable from 2500 miles away if you've never been to the Sierras, and presumably some of what appealed to Matt. Even though he's probably within 15 miles of a major ski resort, it's not like a missing hiker in a state park on the East Coast.
Everyone's doing a great job keeping the search going, through their heart and skills. But in my humble opinion, it's best to focus our energies on our individual expertise. If anyone needs manpower, ideas, or information they will surely request it.
Edit: I live in the suburban fringe of LA and go mountain biking on the local trails. Every few weeks, I come across people with high-end equipment who are totally lost. The Sierras aren't the place to send anyone lacking basic orienteering skills. Who's going to assess their abilities before sending them into the back country?
@Crankster- Good comments above...will there be a test of "SAR protocol"? I would fail the test.
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pacarockhound
Social climber
Escondido CA
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Cragman, I understand your points. I'm only suggesting people with strong backcountry skills who are not technical climbers could search off-trail/approach/descent areas.
Crankster, This was my thinking also.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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off-trail/approach/descent areas. The Minarets area is rather different than many Sierra Nevada peak groups. It's true that in the Minarets you can get into very dangerous terrain almost before you know it (voice of experience). I believe this is what happened to Matt. Most of the approaches and descents require experience and a good deal of caution.
Dean's earlier reconnaissance and excellent photos show how quickly "wandering about" could lead to trouble.
However, Steve Fossett's air crash was found in relatively easy terrain in the Minarets region (Northeast side of Volcanic Ridge) after 13 months.
There is a lot of easy to moderate ground in the Minarets / Ritter area that could be checked.
I hesitate to use the term "search" as that entails organization rather than ad hoc looking around. Much of that ground does get significant travel in the summer months, some of those areas not so much.
Unfortunately, as has been pointed out, unofficial "organized" searching is fraught with personal and legal risk and is best not done. There is nothing to be gained by anyone putting themselves in physical or legal jeopardy.
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Supermama
Social climber
pa
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Kenish, Cragman et al.
Point taken...I will stick to what I know best and butt out. Not trying to micromanage from Pa, just a colleague offering to help. Just to remind you, I did recommend Dan Watson and SAR be contacted. I have not posted or promoted this search in any way.
Hopefully, Matt's family will understand. This has to be difficult for them to read. My deepest sympathy goes out to them. Matt will be greatly missed by his family at NASD.
Supermama
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zBrown
Ice climber
Brujo de La Playa
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I always liked the commercial with the eTrade baby saying, that's like "the odds of getting attacked by a polar bear and regular bear on the same day".
Much as I would like traces of Matt to be found, it's going to happen by chance at some completely unknown time in the future.
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Kalimon
Social climber
Ridgway, CO
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zB = wise one.
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pacarockhound
Social climber
Escondido CA
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Much as I would like traces of Matt to be found, it's going to happen by chance at some completely unknown time in the future.
Perhaps... but who knows...
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kenish
Gym climber
Orange County, CA
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I will stick to what I know best and butt out. Not trying to micromanage from Pa, just a colleague offering to help. Just to remind you, I did recommend Dan Watson and SAR be contacted. I have not posted or promoted this search in any way.
You're definitely invaluable by diligently following leads and organizing facts and information. That's your core expertise that many others don't have, and your presence in PA is another huge benefit that gets results that can't happen in CA. I think the post about scraping together a search effort is what concerned some of the seasoned experts in the area.
As others said, we all want results and closure, and you're no doubt near the top of that list. You're also one of the key people in this effort. Everyone continuing to apply their heart, efforts, and talents will get results...but we all must be careful about becoming overzealous. No harm, no foul- my $0.02 worth!
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pacarockhound
Social climber
Escondido CA
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Huh, if you got internet access for an hour or so wouldn't you be checking out more info on your tomorrow's big climb/trip you get up for at 3am, and checking the weather forecast as well, especially you're basically killing time? If there's nothing found in his pages, wouldn't it speak against a big climb with long approach to a new, not previously visited destination.. I dunno, I might be wrong, but just kind of odd.
Tioga, this is an interesting point. What do others think about this?
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LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
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Pacarockhound quoted Tioga:
Huh, if you got internet access for an hour or so wouldn't you be checking out more info on your tomorrow's big climb/trip you get up for at 3am, and checking the weather forecast as well, especially you're basically killing time? If there's nothing found in his pages, wouldn't it speak against a big climb with long approach to a new, not previously visited destination.. I dunno, I might be wrong, but just kind of odd. Tioga, this is an interesting point. What do others think about this?
I think this may mean that at the time of that first library computer session that Matt either (a) had a specific climbing/hiking plan for the next day that was so well-developed that he didn’t need to research it further, (b) had no specific plan but had some well-researched possibilities or (c) had no particular plans for Wednesday.
Though (a) is possible, I think the evidence points toward (b) or (c). As Tioga implies, even if Matt had had a previously decided well-developed plan at that point, wouldn’t he have done searches regarding his destination, just to see if there was something new? From Tiffany’s report about that first internet session, it sounds like Matt was more focused on heading on to Colorado.
(I don’t know whether Tiffany has had the chance to wade through more of the huge number of library records for the 16th to see whether Matt signed up for any more internet sessions after that. It’s free to use the PCs but you have to sign up for hour-long sessions and then if the library is busy may have to wait until you can sign up again.)
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LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
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I’ve been thinking about the timeline in relation to the new info re the conversation with Arnold and the library records.
Thursday, July 11 -- Matt took the shuttle and climbed Clyde Minaret (solo).
Friday – he did solo climbs in the Mammoth Crest area, called the repair shop, and had dinner with the Morales family. According to Jill, Matt told Arnold about past and future climbs and showed him photocopied pages from Secor including the page with Ritter and Banner as well as a page with Lyell. He said there were two climbs he wanted to do before leaving Mammoth, one being in Yosemite. He mentioned difficult moments in the Minarets and appeared very interested in the Ritter/Banner page.
Saturday -- he climbed Unicorn peak (solo; Yosemite).
Sunday – we don’t know.
Monday –got up early; unconfirmed report that he went to Tuolumne to climb some domes.
On Tuesday the 16th, he went to the library, went online, and did texting and calling.
At least in his web session from ~10:50am to 11:50am PST (we don’t know yet if there were other sessions), though he appears to be looking at sites of interest to him, it doesn’t look like he was researching a particular climb.
At 3:00pm he sent a text and at 3:06pm called his parents and spoke for 24 minutes; he was just south of the library. Then at 4:29 and 4:35pm, apparently from the vicinity of Mammoth Mountain (perhaps near the lodge), he made 2 brief calls to the repair shop. From 4:40pm to 8:34pm, he intermittently sent and received texts that apparently indicated no problem. Then on the morning of July 17, at 2:53am, he turned the phone back on and received a text apparently sent the night before. And that’s all we know.
Now I’ll speculate. Could it be that when Matt called the repair shop late Tuesday afternoon, he had no firm plan for the next day, but still hoped the car was done already or would be done in the morning? (Do we know what they told him? Do we know whether any of his texts that evening indicated when he thought the car would be ready?)
If they said it would be done on the 18th, maybe it was only then that he made a plan for the 17th. If he was near the Mammoth Lodge, could he have then made an arrangement with someone such as a Mammoth employee to get an early ride to a trailhead? I wonder where he had dinner on the 16th – whether he cooked it for himself or went out to eat, and whether he might have spoken with anyone about his plans.
Then, I’m guessing he finished texting and went to sleep. We don’t know whether he got up at 2:53am to start going somewhere, or if he just turned on his phone for some reason and then went back to sleep for a while before taking a shuttle. (His turning the phone on at that hour was unusual for him, but as I’ve argued, maybe not quite as unusual as it seems. He could have turned the phone on in the middle of the night on lots of days, and unless he received a text or voicemail, we’d never know.)
In terms of destinations, maybe the climb Matt wanted to do in Yosemite was Unicorn peak or some dome in Tuolumne, and therefore he had already done it by the 16th. (Or maybe Lyell, which he apparently did not do before the 16th.) As for the other climb, maybe it was Banner or Ritter, but based on summit registers, it doesn’t look like he did either on Sunday or Monday. Maybe, because the car place kept putting him off, he didn’t know how long he’d be in Mammoth so climbing Banner/Ritter on a particular day was less urgent? After talking with the repair shop on Tuesday, maybe Matt decided to do Banner or Ritter on Wednesday. Or he could have made some other plan. But whatever plan he had, his gear indicates that it involved snow, which would be compatible with Banner/Ritter as well as with a few other places.
It would be interesting to know if Matt had any more computer sessions on the 16th and what he looked at -- that might change the above scenario. It would also be great if the detective can get access to Matt’s Hotmail account and more details from his phone records.
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zBrown
Ice climber
Brujo de La Playa
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Perhaps... but who knows...
Correcto.
I should have said in my opinion. Nobody knows this stuff, but reading about all the searching that's been done and looking at history of similar events, I'll stay with my opinion.
I'm in no way attempting to discourage folks from continuing to look.
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jeg
Social climber
center valley,Pa
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La Hiker....
I spoke to the guy who was talking with Matt in the bus on the way to Tuolomne on the 15th. Matt told him he was planning on climbing some domes but didn't say which one. The guy also asked Matt if he wanted to climb something bigger things together one day and Matt said no he didn't have time, he was waiting on his car and was planning on leaving.
Also, I believe I recall the car shop saying they told Matt the car would be done on the 17th but then called him back after the machanic said it would take another day.
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Supermama
Social climber
pa
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Kensih...thank you...the last thing I want to happen is for someone to get hurt.
La Hiker...Yes...we definitely need the Hotmail account to be checked. Tiffany is working on this with the Pa detective. Without it we are just speculating. Thanks for the summary of events. It keeps us all thinking...
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pacarockhound
Social climber
Escondido CA
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Oct 10, 2013 - 02:36am PT
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Thanks LA Hiker for summarizing and updating. This jumped out at me:
I wonder where he had dinner on the 16th – whether he cooked it for himself or went out to eat, and whether he might have spoken with anyone about his plans.
I am wondering if he ate at Thai restaurant he had circled on his map? Could someone who lives in Mammoth check with workers there to see if someone remembers serving him on the 16th and if they had a conversation?
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LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 10, 2013 - 08:32pm PT
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Jill said:
I spoke to the guy who was talking with Matt in the bus on the way to Tuolomne on the 15th. Matt told him he was planning on climbing some domes but didn't say which one. The guy also asked Matt if he wanted to climb something bigger things together one day and Matt said no he didn't have time, he was waiting on his car and was planning on leaving.
Also, I believe I recall the car shop saying they told Matt the car would be done on the 17th but then called him back after the machanic said it would take another day.
Thanks for the info. It’s starting to sound like Matt was completely ready to leave Mammoth, and that his plans for Wednesday the 17th may have been decided at the last minute (after his call to the repair shop late Tuesday afternoon), though they may have involved an objective that he had wanted to go to for a while.
For me, this puts a little more emphasis on what Matt did on Tuesday the 16th after that call, on places where he might have spoken to people, and even on his texts that evening, though what he did earlier in the day is still relevant. Pacarockhound, while I agree that the Thai restaurant is definitely one place where we might want to talk with the staff and see if Matt had become a regular, if I were planning a big hike/climb, I’d probably eat lightly and turn in at a reasonable hour. Also, note that though Matt ate there early in his visit to Mammoth, he had had two weeks to find other favorite places. Jill, do you happen to know whether Matt cooked most of his meals on a camp stove, or whether he tended to eat out? If he ate out, do you have any sense of whether he had some favorite places?
Because Matt apparently used the NewBelgium beer locator search in his late-morning computer session on the 16th, one possible clue to where he went later that day might be places that serve NewBelgium beer. (Caveats: It was unclear to me whether he used the locator Tiffany mentions to look in Mammoth Lakes or Colorado. Also, unless he had just been turned on to the beer, he probably had figured out the Mammoth Lakes outlets already.)
Of the places that serve the beer on tap, there’s a cluster in the center of town, including one right near the library at Giovanni’s Pizzaria. The Good Life Café serves Mexican food and appears to be closest to the campground. Others include Rafters Restaurant and Lounge, CJ’s Grill, Country Liquor and Deli, and Grumpy’s, Then there's one more towards Mammoth Mountain, which is the area we think Matt was in when he called the repair shop (Clocktower Cellar Pub, which is mostly a whiskey bar, located in basement of the Alpenhof Lodge hotel. Worth stopping by, but doesn’t sound like Matt’s style to me). Then there are also a lot of places that sell the beer to go, in bottles. Jill, do you happen to know whether Matt liked to sit in pubs or restaurants sipping beer, or whether he preferred to buy the beer in bottles and keep it on hand to celebrate after climbs?
Of course, this assumes he even looked up places serving or selling the beer in Mammoth, but maybe it's one clue to figuring out where he might have spoken to people on the evening of the 16th...
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kenish
Gym climber
Orange County, CA
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Oct 10, 2013 - 09:07pm PT
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It was unclear to me whether he used the locator Tiffany mentions to look in Mammoth Lakes or Colorado.
The library history appeared that Matt made a "purchase" through NewBelgium's website. I mentioned earlier NB does brewery tours via advance reservation online. Maybe he was planning to do the tour when he got to Colorado. I browsed NB's website. The reservation page requires entering name, email address, etc. NB may have record of Matt's tour reservation even though he was a no-show. They're in Ft. Collins- one of Matt's friends can probably project the date he planned to be in that area.
If Matt purchased something, it should show up in his credit card records. A purchase requires setting up an account, so NB should have record of that, too.
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tdg119
Social climber
Northampton, PA
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Oct 10, 2013 - 09:19pm PT
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I haven't found a second library session and doubt I will.
I'll be quite honest - out of the logs it bothers me that he checked on the Palisades (I thought it and brushed it off but SplitPants caught it too). The difficult thing about the logs is it's hard, for me anyways, to tell what was actually searched for vs what just lies on a page and caught his eye.
So, checking on Palisades conditions and then the corresponding posts could be something. He had Palisades maps and such in his stuff; but again it's something he did with John.
I double checked for weather to no avail. Some things I hadn't originally mentioned, I think, was him checking out the Gunks site, possible stock he owns, and Australian and Papua New Guinea sites (where he was in Peace Corps).
In relation to the hammertoe stuff, I *think* his search term was actually yellow toe joints. Jeg said in an email that Matt had cut this knee on a climb the previous week too, but I don't know that it was bothering him.
That's all I got. Touched base w detective Toronzi and still awaiting phone records. He thinks email would be a dead end and since Matt appeared to be using his school email, I'm inclined to agree at this point.
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Gene
climber
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Oct 10, 2013 - 10:03pm PT
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… and Papua New Guinea sites (where he was in Peace Corps).
Matt’s death is now even more poignant to me because I am also a former PCV, a life-long lover of the Ritter Range, and have spent time in New Guinea. Where did he serve? What did he do?
The fact that Matt was a PCV in New Guinea tells me one thing. If Matt was like any of the PCVs I have known, the probability that he was duped by someone with evil intent approaches nil. One thing you develop in the PC is a finely tuned BS filter. By necessity you become a good and quick judge of the intent of others. You get post-PhD level, real-time experience in situational awareness regarding people and situations. It’s part of the job.
I pray that Matt’s remains in the Sierra will be found. Given the date on the calendar, it won’t be this year. It’s time to search for peace and acceptance of what has happened.
God bless you all.
g
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zBrown
Ice climber
Brujo de La Playa
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Oct 10, 2013 - 11:15pm PT
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Where, in the possible routes Matt might have been on, are the areas where a rock slide could have completely covered him?
http://www.traditionalmountaineering.org/News_PeterStarr.htm
http://climber.org/reports/2003/1150.html
http://www.climber.org/reports/2003/1205.html
Dave Daly, who learned about Starr while reading Missing in the Minarets, conceived the idea for the memorial and led the climb. Waczairg persuaded the Stanford Alumni Association to pay for the plaque. It is located about 300 feet below the summit, in direct view of the ledge where Norman Clyde discovered Starr’s body in 1933. Although the climbers visited Starr’s gravesite, Waczairg says they chose a different, more visible spot to place the plaque—at a junction partway up the mountain, where several routes to the top diverge. “Most people who climb the mountain will go directly past the plaque,” he explains.
Waczairg says the climbing was strenuous, dangerous and unthinkable without a safety rope. It gave him new respect for Starr’s ability. “I’ve done a lot of climbing—I’ve never seen a mountain that was so sheer on all four sides. If you fall, you die,” he says. “I would have rated it about a 5.7.” Anything over 5.0 is considered technical climbing, virtually always performed with a rope and another climber. Recalling that Starr had not only climbed with no rope but in tennis shoes, Waczairg says reverently, “The guy was out of his mind.
“He almost made it,” he adds. “It would have been an amazing climb—to this day, nobody has finished it.”
http://www.stanfordalumni.org/news/magazine/2003/novdec/features/plaque.html
Quote Here
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kenish
Gym climber
Orange County, CA
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Oct 10, 2013 - 11:22pm PT
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He thinks email would be a dead end and since Matt appeared to be using his school email, I'm inclined to agree at this point.
The school district should have all of Matt's emails...still on their email server, in Matt's inbox, or archived. Given the school's closeness to you, Matt, and the situation, I would think they'd be pretty willing to provide access to his account. True, it probably won't directly find Matt but may have clues. It also may lead to friends, business relationships, bank accounts you didn't know about. If nothing else, some of the email could be "digital mementos" of Matt. I've saved some emails from a friend who passed tragically as a reminder of who he was.
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LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 11, 2013 - 02:27am PT
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Tiffany said:
I'll be quite honest - out of the logs it bothers me that he checked on the Palisades (I thought it and brushed it off but SplitPants caught it too). The difficult thing about the logs is it's hard, for me anyways, to tell what was actually searched for vs what just lies on a page and caught his eye.
So, checking on Palisades conditions and then the corresponding posts could be something. He had Palisades maps and such in his stuff; but again it's something he did with John.
Hi Tiffany, did Matt check on the Palisades beyond checking that U Notch/V Notch thread?
If Matt went onto SummitPost’s California forum on July 16th, the “Recent U and V notch conditions – end of July” post would have been at or near the top. Since Matt had recently been to V notch (on July 6th) and had posted about conditions there on July 8th, mightn’t he have clicked on the post in case he had something to contribute?
I remember that you said it looked like Matt emailed someone on that thread. It looks like three people posted on the thread; the posts of one of them, 3Deserts, have apparently been removed because he’s been banned for trolling or something like that. The other two are subhrojyoti and naren, who sound like they’re climbing partners but I’m not sure. Subhrojyoti asks for info re conditions and Naren asks for pictures from 3Deserts’ trip. I doubt that Matt emailed 3Deserts, though of course it's possible because 3D's posts were still there at the time.
Maybe Matt emailed Subhrojyoti with more info? He couldn’t have planned to go there again on the 17th with Subhrojyoti, because Subhrojyoti wasn’t going there until late July. Maybe you could contact Subhrojyoti, explain the situation, and ask whether Matt contacted him??
While there was snow at V and U notch, and it’s not impossible that Matt went there on the 17th, this seems very unlikely to me because (a) Matt tended not to repeat climbs, (b) he would have had to get a long ride -- the Palisades are ~70 miles from Mammoth and (c) it looks like he might not have decided what to do on the 17th until after his late-afternoon calls to the repair shop, which would mean he would have had to lined up that long ride really fast.
Or am I missing something here – did Matt check conditions in the Palisades more extensively than this, or is something else making you uneasy about this?
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 11, 2013 - 11:12am PT
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Gives a good pictorial of what searchers are up against.
Doesn't look rough at all, like walking around in a corn field in Kansas.
Meh ....
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tdg119
Social climber
Northampton, PA
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Oct 11, 2013 - 01:06pm PT
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Gene - Matt was teaching at Bema in Papua New Guinea in the Peace Corps. He had to fly in and out of Kaintiba to get to any real towns, I believe. There are some pictures from back in the day here: https://findmattgreene.shutterfly.com/301
----
I don't know why Palisades bugs me...just does. He may have very well been checking up on a thread he'd already posted to on the 8th since he'd done it with John. I emailed the two people on the thread to see if Matt may have emailed them.
Detective Toronzi got the court ordered phone logs to me today. Not much new to report, however it does tell us that the 2:53 am PST text message was actually sent and received at the same time, so Matt's phone was already on. That in itself is strange to me. It really seems as though he turned his phone off every night. I don't see on/off records or any better lat/long info then we had before.
Repair shop tried calling him once each on July 17th, 20th & 22nd; nothing after. The call they made on the 17th was at 2:48 pm PST. No strange numbers. Everything's from PA except for the repair shop and then Det. Hornbeck on the 29th.
~ Tiffany
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Supermama
Social climber
pa
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Oct 11, 2013 - 05:23pm PT
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Kenesh...
All of Matt's school email was checked by the detective and nothing was found. I covered that at this end since we were colleagues. The only web account left is his Hotmail.
Supermama
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Supermama
Social climber
pa
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Oct 11, 2013 - 07:11pm PT
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I was searching the net for the clues we had about Matt's disappearance and this is what came up. The last web address is the link to the sight. It is from a hiking group from Reno. They hiked right after Matt disappeared. I thought the gear required matched that of Matt's. See what you all think.
Clyde Variation route description:
http://www.summitpost.org/clyde-variation/155876
At the end of the day, it was a great, if not epic trip! I recommend it. Yes, you do need helmet, ice axe, and crampons – the glacier is ice (no amount of wishful thinking will get your boots that you bought at REI to grip the high angle ice/snow – if you slip you are taking a long, fast ride into a boulder, or over a cliff) and there is rock falling all over the place up there all of the time.
http://www.everytrail.com/view_trip.php?trip_id=2263769
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Oct 11, 2013 - 09:42pm PT
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From the Ritter climb report linked by Supermama above
This is a strange year – we are in a drought now (second year), which has melted a lot of snow away from a large boulder in the SE col creating a steep and dangerous culvert. I am guessing that such a berghschrund/crevasse/moat could have caught Matt.
Cragman found a big one somewhat to the south and much lower, I believe at the base of the route this group climbed.
There are plenty of them up there. Approaching any of them to look for Matt without a well trained and equipped team is a Very Bad Idea.
Regarding the idea that Matt would have gone to the Palisades.
The Palisades are certainly a spectacular mountaineering destination and very appealing.
However, it is extremely unlikely that Matt went there.
The trailhead is at least 2 hours south of Mammoth, the hike in to any serious snow/ice is at least 2 more hours, even for Matt. Then at least 2 hours to climb anything worth the trip.
And then reverse the process.
He would have to find a partner and/or ride. No public transit would get him there
It's a 12 hour day MINIMUM even if he were walking Really Fast.
And he most certainly planned on picking up his car the next morning.
There was a tragic death in the Tetons early this summer. A client was some distance from his guide, took a slide down a moderate slope and slid into a moat at the bottom of the snowfield. The moat fed a significant stream beneath the snowfield. Even though he was extricated alive and flown out by helicopter, he died (presumably of hypothermia) in the hospital.
The report by Grand Teton Search and Rescue is here.
http://tetonclimbingsar.blogspot.com/2013_06_01_archive.html
See the "Garnet Canyon Fatality" 1/2 way down the page. Photos 2, 3 & 4 show the moat and the SAR team.
This route is traveled by dozens of people daily. I climbed this snowfield last summer and ascended/descended within a few feet of the moat.
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crankster
Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
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Oct 11, 2013 - 10:08pm PT
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I'm repeating myself, but what the heck....Matt had been to the Palisades to climb the V-Notch Couloir, so he new the logistics. Really no chance he went there solo without a car when he's anxious to get his car and head to Colorado.
Mammoth has beautiful surroundings, but the "town" isn't really a town, there's no center, it's a place you need a car or at least a bike. Shady Rest Campground would get old REALLY fast. Getting to the Agnew Meadow trailhead for approaches to the Minarets and Mt. Ritter isn't that easy without a car, but it is the main traffic path & would be relatively easy to hitch a ride. That's the most likely place Matt headed. He had not previously climbed Mt Ritter, the highest peak in the area. Hard to argue he went elsewhere.
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ß Î Ø T Ç H
Boulder climber
extraordinaire
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Oct 12, 2013 - 01:31am PT
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"Mathew was mauled by a large animal who dragged his body off of a pathway and into a ravine-esq area. I had some time to hike/ look at some remote boulders today, and I remembered that post. The local bears would not qualify IMO, but Mountain Lions have been seen/ videoed in and around town, and seem to have the moxie to just outright attack humans.
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LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 12, 2013 - 02:10am PT
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Maverick01/Peter, I’ve been meaning to tell you that I appreciate that you’re considering searching some more, weather permitting. If you do end up searching, I hope you’ll be careful. I realize that the search window for this fall is rapidly closing.
I do agree with Kenish’s and others' concerns that organizing search parties among people who don’t know each other can expose the searchers to danger and the organizer to liability. But perhaps if preexisting teams of technically skilled people are searching in the area, they can coordinate with each other.
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sharperblue
Mountain climber
San Francisco, California
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Oct 22, 2013 - 12:43am PT
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Just a throw-away comment: we ran up Ritter on Saturday and came down the SE Glacier (as has been mentioned, extremely icy and unusual conditions) - found a green ball cap 2/3 way down in a bit of an unusual location, with a stone very intentionally placed on it to keep it from blowing away. 'Canyonlands Half Marathon' logo. Likely from SAR crew, but the weathering on it seemed just about perfect to have been sitting in the open for a few three months. Took a GPS spot and left it.
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tdg119
Social climber
Northampton, PA
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Oct 22, 2013 - 08:53am PT
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sharperblue - I just checked out the website for the Half Marathon listed on that cap. Unfortunately, it's a race held in March - Matt would be home in PA in March. Just to confirm, I searched all the race results and found his name. Hat must belong to someone else.
http://www.lehighvalleylive.com/nazareth/index.ssf/2013/10/post_34.html
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OutdoorGal
Social climber
Lehigh Valley, PA
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Oct 22, 2013 - 10:27am PT
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Tiffany/Ron, I saw the photo on FB, and there is no year shown on the hat. Could Matt have run this in a previous year--say, during a school spring break? Or has he never traveled out west during that time of year?
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LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 22, 2013 - 11:04am PT
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Sharperblue, thanks for reporting this. Though it sounds like it's probably not Matt's hat, it might set people's minds at ease if we knew whose hat it is.
For this reason, have you thought of posting a picture of the hat on the SummitPost California board or similar place? I mean, people usually do that when they find a whole abandoned campsite, but here there would be a particular reason.
It sounds like conditions up near the glacier were nasty. Just out of curiosity, how were conditions further down, near the trailhead?
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kenish
Gym climber
Orange County, CA
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Oct 22, 2013 - 12:59pm PT
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Just to confirm, I searched all the race results and found his name. Hat must belong to someone else.
@tdg- Did you mean you could *not* find Matt's name?
Annual events often change color of apparel each year. If the marathon does that, an organizer should know the year they did green caps. Or, you may already know that Matt never went to that event.
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LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 22, 2013 - 01:38pm PT
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Kenish, it looks like the Moab Half Marathon people sell a more recent version of the cap in their online store -- the cap that was found is similar to the yellow one but is constructed somewhat differently:
http://www.moabhalfmarathon.com/product.cfm?id=DFA57217-3048-7A03-3935CD71997C5D7E
If the marathon has been selling such gear for years, the owner of the cap need not even have run in the half marathon. But I doubt that a runner would wear the cap of a marathon they hadn't run in (unless they had some other reason, such as supporting the Boston Marathon). And I've never seen pictures of Matt in that cap. So I doubt it was his.
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tdg119
Social climber
Northampton, PA
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Oct 22, 2013 - 01:54pm PT
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Sorry, yes I meant I did NOT find Matt's name in any of the race results and I searched all the years they had available on the website which goes quite a few years back.
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sharperblue
Mountain climber
San Francisco, California
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Oct 22, 2013 - 04:43pm PT
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Well, I wouldn't call the glacier nasty - just icy - as far as Sierra goes, it was rather fun! Even the North face route above the saddle is solid water ice though, and quite broad - pretty dangerous without a technical tool, but still great fun. (There is a spectacular mixed climb formed up lower down, too; a miniature Canadian climb)
Approach is perfectly clear all the way up, no snow. A scattered remnant in the shade on the northern aspects around the lakes, otherwise ideal Autumn conditions
And yes: teh hat is on the FaceBook page, but i'll post it over on Summitpost as well
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pacarockhound
Social climber
Escondido CA
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Oct 22, 2013 - 10:03pm PT
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I suppose there is the possibility that Matt wore a hat that someone gave him. He might have lost his, blown away, etc. If not, it would be good to know who it does belong to.
Sharperblue - thanks for sharing your thoughts on hiking conditions.
Any news about Matt's eating habits and possible places he ate around July 16th? and possible people he spoke to about his plans....?
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Oct 24, 2013 - 07:58pm PT
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sharperblue
Can you be more specific about your actual route on approach, climbing, and your return route after the SE Glacier?
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maverick01
climber
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Oct 24, 2013 - 08:23pm PT
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Just to update everyone involved,
Would like to say that I am sorry to the family, but I decided
to call off our search due to the weather and transportation
issues to and from the trailhead. With the snow and icy conditions
it would have made the search much riskier, also locating any
evidence would have been much more difficult to see/find.
Appreciated everyone's input for and against our search.
Our group of approx 10, and possibly more by next year will
conduct a search in the Minarets if nothing is found by then.
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tdg119
Social climber
Northampton, PA
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Oct 28, 2013 - 10:16am PT
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Thank you for the update Maverick - we were wondering.
I'm glad you decided to play it safe.
I think it's safe to say that all efforts will just need to wait until spring.
I'm going to put forth some effort to go through Matt's gear that was brought back from Mammoth if my parents are OK with that. It's as much for my own peace of mind than out of expectation of finding anything.
Thank you again to everyone who's stuck by us throughout everything.
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ß Î Ø T Ç H
Boulder climber
extraordinaire
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Oct 29, 2013 - 12:27am PT
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Thank you again to everyone who's stuck by us throughout everything. ^^Class act, but I will always wonder why an official search was not initiated sooner (with the info they had at the time). Why let the the trail go cold in those critical first days? Interviews of hikers, and shuttle drivers better early etc.
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tdg119
Social climber
Northampton, PA
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Oct 30, 2013 - 11:49am PT
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What Cragman said.
I'll mention too that Matt was not even reported missing until 7/29. Neither the car repair shop nor the campground reported him missing (despite that they had his car & gear) and though family was worried that he was not returning calls, we didn't want to jump the gun.
By the time the MLPD found out, the campground had already packed up Matt's stuff and put it in storage. Kind of makes for a difficult trail to follow...
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pacarockhound
Social climber
Escondido CA
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Oct 31, 2013 - 04:34pm PT
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I am still confused by this...seems like the given in search and rescue is that a person is missing. By missing, we mean we don't know where he/she is. Don't most searches start where a person was last seen?
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michaeld
Sport climber
Sacramento
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Oct 31, 2013 - 05:07pm PT
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By the time the MLPD found out, the campground had already packed up Matt's stuff and put it in storage. Kind of makes for a difficult trail to follow...
That sounds like Negligence to me. "Hey a single backpacker is overdue and his gear is here."
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LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 31, 2013 - 06:48pm PT
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Pacarockhound said:
I am still confused by this...seems like the given in search and rescue is that a person is missing. By missing, we mean we don't know where he/she is. Don't most searches start where a person was last seen?
I’m sure more knowledgeable people will correct me, but this is how I understand it. I think there’s a difference between not knowing where someone is within a specified area and not having any idea of where they are. If, for instance, we knew that Matt taken the shuttle to Agnew Meadows and had planned to climb Mt. Ritter, then search teams could have been deployed to those routes. It’s a big area and they might not have found him, but they could have tried.
But we have no idea of where Matt went. The missing gear implies that he planned a day hike involving snow, but that doesn’t narrow things down very much, given that there are several large objectives involving snow nearby, and more further away if he had gotten a ride.
Regarding starting a search where a person was last seen/detected, I think that depends on the terrain and abilities of the missing person, which determine how likely it is that the person is near where they started out. If a toddler was last seen wandering away from a remote campground, you would start there and work outwards because the toddler would not have had the intention or the ability to go far. When college student Bryce Laspisa crashed the car he was driving on a freeway ramp near Castaic, and then disappeared without taking his wallet or cell phone, a search started nearby because it was assumed he was injured and disoriented.
If, on the other hand, an extremely fit, healthy, and motivated adult is last seen/detected in an area accessible to trails, roads, and public transportation, that creates a problem in terms of search. Matt’s cell phone records put him in Mammoth on the 16th, but he could have gone in any direction on the 17th. There was no sign in his gear of struggle or injury that could have limited where he went. As noted above, his gear implied that he planned a day hike to somewhere with snow. So we're back to not knowing nearly enough about where he went to start an official search.
That said, I wish more searching had been done near the campground, and hope to do some myself if I get up there. (The thinking might have been that if Matt had had an accident in such a well-traveled area, someone would have noticed.)
Finally, my hat is off to Cragman, Mattyj, Matt's friends, and others, who despite this troubling lack of info, and sometimes at great risk to themselves, have done unofficial searches for Matt in the back country.
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Off White
climber
Tenino, WA
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Oct 31, 2013 - 06:55pm PT
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Ron, I think missing adults constitute less than a tenth of that total, which of course is still a lot of people.
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kenish
Gym climber
Orange County, CA
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Oct 31, 2013 - 07:16pm PT
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Matt took off solo without informing anyone of his itinerary or timeline. So, nobody realized he was missing and it didn't raise concern at first. By the time friends inquired with the police, almost 2 weeks (IIRC) had passed. At that point, the trail was going cold along with physical evidence and other clues. As it stands today, the timeline is clear up to the evening before his disappearance. The "place last seen" was in town that evening. Family, police in CA and PA, friends, informal searches, etc. have not come up with any substantial clues after that.
From the campground's perspective, they simply had an abandoned campsite. I'm sure it's a regular occurrence which happens for a lot of reasons. True, Matt had paid reliably and wasn't a deadbeat, but they had no reason to conclude "person in trouble in the back country".
SAR couldn't launch a formal search without more information, but would keep an eye out. SAR is a volunteer effort using their own gas, meals, equipment, and time. As dedicated and interested as they are to help, they can't be expected to search a vast area. Even with an educated guess at areas to search, it's still vast and considerable risk is involved. Several with SAR experience have done their own (risky) searches with frustratingly few results.
That's the broad summary (I've been on this thread since it started)...no action was taken in the important initial days because nobody realized Matt was missing.
<edited to add>: +1 to LA Hiker's post above
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pacarockhound
Social climber
Escondido CA
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Oct 31, 2013 - 07:36pm PT
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Thanks LA Hiker and Kenish for the clarification.
I certainly appreciate all the searching that has taken place.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Oct 31, 2013 - 07:54pm PT
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Those missing persons stats, like so many, are highly suspect in that agencies
that stand to benefit from increased funding are not likely to correct
those numbers when the person shows up later.
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rlf
Trad climber
Josh, CA
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Oct 31, 2013 - 09:29pm PT
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Those missing persons stats, like so many, are highly suspect in that agencies
that stand to benefit from increased funding are not likely to correct
those numbers when the person shows up later.
I don't think it is really appropriate to introduce this element into this thread. I would suggest that this type of material be brought up in your own thread.
I will not respond to any other posts of this nature. Let's keep this thread on track.
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Dan Watson
climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Oct 31, 2013 - 10:05pm PT
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I can say categorically that agencies don't get funding for missing persons. They take a lot of time and resources, with no reimbursement.
Mono County SAR is a very professional, committed, and experienced team. They were advised of the circumstances when Matt was first reported missing. They are all volunteers. There is nothing they want to do more than search and find missing persons or rescue those in trouble. But Mono County is 3300 square miles, all of it rural and remote. The possible areas Matt could have gone to encompass several other counties, all with their own SAR teams. Without knowing which trailhead he went to, there is virtually no way to begin a search over such a widespread area. The campground he was staying in is located in the Town of Mammoth Lakes. It is not a remote location with trailheads nearby. Shortly after Matt was reported missing, it it was determined that a possible location would have been in the Ritter or Banner areas, which are outside of Mono County, the SAR team conducted a training exercise in those areas in the hopes they would get fortunate and find clues.
With the lack of information of where Matt may have gone, coupled with the delay in learning he was missing, Mono County SAR should not be criticized for doing enough.
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FRUMY
Trad climber
Bishop,CA
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Oct 31, 2013 - 10:08pm PT
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^^^^^^
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rlf
Trad climber
Josh, CA
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Oct 31, 2013 - 10:43pm PT
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Mono County SAR should not be criticized for doing enough.
Having run a SAR team for the NPS myself, I could not agree enough.
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Dan Watson
climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Oops, I meant to say that the Mono County SAR should not be criticized for NOT doing enough.
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LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
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Kenish, thanks for your excellent summary. Dan, thanks for your good points re Mono SAR.
Assuming Matt is in some location that can be searched, I think what we need now are (a) more evidence, for instance, regarding his destination, (b) more luck than we've been having, and (c) what may be hardest, the patience to wait until after the snow season...
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ß Î Ø T Ç H
Boulder climber
extraordinaire
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I can say categorically that agencies don't get funding for missing persons. Mono County SAR is ... all volunteers. Who had the Blackhawk out there then, some good samaritan that happens to own a helicopter?
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Who had the Blackhawk out there then, some good samaritan that happens to own a helicopter?
That almost exactly describes it. That was Sam.
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SplitPants
Social climber
LA
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Given the circumstances I think EVERYONE has done a wonderful job in the search for Matt. Hats off to SAR, everyone that went boots on the ground like Cragman (I am sure I am missing some names so my apologies) and everyone on this thread that has poured their heart and soul into finding Matt.
I think this thread should focus on the positive and a strategy for next spring/summer search along with new updated flyers etc.........
I think the collective minds and hearts on this thread have been of much value to Matt's family and friends.
Keep the faith! Matt will be found.
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Alpineholydog
Trad climber
Spring Tx
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Nov 10, 2013 - 09:04pm PT
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How many days passed before Matt's gear was stored?
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ß Î Ø T Ç H
Boulder climber
extraordinaire
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Nov 28, 2013 - 10:04pm PT
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(not my photo)
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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Nov 28, 2013 - 11:05pm PT
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hey there say, all...
just remember, as, i saw this thread... :(
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ß Î Ø T Ç H
Boulder climber
extraordinaire
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Dec 30, 2013 - 01:40am PT
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Had these (late summer) when I went up to McCloud Lake hoping to find anything - random, but a bump if nothin else.
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pacarockhound
Social climber
Escondido CA
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Feb 15, 2014 - 07:47pm PT
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Matt is on my mind today.
Is Mammoth Lakes still covered in snow, or is there any thaw due to drought and heat in southern California?
Beautiful photos above!
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Feb 18, 2014 - 04:20pm PT
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I think of Matt often. I believe he is at rest among these magnificent peaks.
There's now just enough snow in the Sierra to make the Minarets really dangerous. Moats/crevasses may be hidden but not safe to travel over.
All of California is still very short of precipitation for the winter.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Feb 18, 2014 - 05:26pm PT
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pacarockhound...Mammoth is around 38% of normal snowfall...Unless we get some major snow storms , summer access to the back country will come early...
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ClimberDave
Trad climber
The LBC, CA
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Feb 18, 2014 - 05:37pm PT
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Was also just thinking of him, saw one of the "missing" signs in Mammoth over the weekend.
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ß Î Ø T Ç H
Boulder climber
extraordinaire
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Feb 19, 2014 - 01:25am PT
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PAUL SOUZA
Trad climber
Central Valley, CA
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Feb 19, 2014 - 10:22am PT
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Hey Dean, I'm in.
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ß Î Ø T Ç H
Boulder climber
extraordinaire
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Mar 21, 2014 - 04:51pm PT
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Can anybody tell me what site number he was at in Shady Rest?
I was gonna look around in there while the campground is still closed. Thanks.
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LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
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Mar 22, 2014 - 01:07pm PT
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Biotch said,
Can anybody tell me what site number he was at in Shady Rest?
I was gonna look around in there while the campground is still closed. Thanks.
Hi Biotch, I believe Matt was staying at site #164 in New Shady Rest.
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Psilocyborg
climber
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Mar 22, 2014 - 04:37pm PT
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cragman: pm me please. I tried to pm you, but I don't see the button?
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maverick01
climber
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Mar 26, 2014 - 10:23pm PT
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Craigman wrote:
Anyone wishing to join me.....leave a note here and I will PM you.
What happened to your earlier advice:
What I suggested to maverick01 was that if he and his personal
friends that he knows and can vouche for their capabilites want
to go in and search...great. To try and enlist volunteers who
are complete strangers is to cross a line into very dodgy
territory.....a place where you do not belong.
Kenish wrote:
be aware that you assume legal liability by merely organizing
this activity. It sounds borderline ridiculous but sadly, it's
the times we all live in. Anyone involved is exposed; well-meaning
people have been sued after a "volunteer" effort ended badly.
Piles of waivers won't help. Cragman's comment may be due to
feeling a legal and an ethical burden would be forced on him.
Does this not apply now?
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TYeary
Social climber
State of decay
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Mar 27, 2014 - 01:00am PT
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I'd be happy to lend a hand when the time comes. Keep me in the loop, Dean.
TY
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Mar 27, 2014 - 11:23pm PT
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I'm also IN
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Zenro
Social climber
New Jersey
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Cragman, how do I get in touch with you?
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Floorabove
climber
The Gunks y'all
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I always cringe when I see this thread at the top of the page, fearing that someone has made, in my opinion, an unfortunate discovery of Matts remains.
His disappearance has changed my operations. I no longer head out alone without letting someone know where I'll be. Before this, I would do so without a second thought.
Thank you Matt for making my life safer.
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tdg119
Social climber
Northampton, PA
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Is it possible? Trying hard not to get hopes up. I only heard about the story because I have Mono County Sheriff's page in my Facebook feed.
This post refers to the Casa Diablo range, which I am unfamiliar with. However when I searched for the story on Google, I found one of the articles mentioned Crowley Lake which would only be 15 miles from Mammoth.
http://monosheriff.org/sheriff/page/possible-human-bones-found-near-casa-diablo-range-area
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Chief Dan Watson
climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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I am checking with the Mono County Sheriff to determine if the age of the remains are consistent with the time Matt went missing and whether the location is likely. I will post when I get a response later today.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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testing to prove if they are human bones Indeed, that sounds as if the bones have been around for quite a while. Pretty easy to distinguish human bones from any of the native mammals if there's much structure to compare.
Where is the Casa Diablo Range?
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TLP
climber
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Casa Diablo Range is one to several miles east of Owens River Gorge. It's a minor range parallel to and west of the White Mtns. Would be a long-ish walk to access without a car or mountain bike. Even if you snagged a ride to the Gorge from someone, you'd have to get around it and walk another few miles each way. The highest point is <8,000 feet. Really great area with remote aura, but doesn't superficially seem to be the kind of objective that fits with Matt's known pattern for his trip.
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Chief Dan Watson
climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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According to the Office of the Mono County Sheriff/Coroner, the remains appear to be at least five years old.
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PAUL SOUZA
Trad climber
Central Valley, CA
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Well that's sad to hear. :(
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labrat
Trad climber
Auburn, CA
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Thanks for the quick update Chief Dan W.
Erik
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ß Î Ø T Ç H
Boulder climber
extraordinaire
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Jun 15, 2014 - 08:42pm PT
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Alpineholydog
Trad climber
Spring Tx
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Jun 28, 2014 - 07:09am PT
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Could someone summarize the facts we know again.
Maybe organized as to what matt climbed in prior days and his activities based on date.
Then list issues about the day he set out.( what he took with him,cell phone signals,)
Then issues after his disappearance such as details about his gear getting put into storage at campsite and areas searched on a map. (when did the gear go into storage?)
Maybe even a dedicated page for all this info. This thread is pretty long to sift through.
Seems there was an actively updated map last year… is that sill around?
I know Cragman and others are keeping an eye out and I'm headed back that way in August w a descent sized group toward Banner and Ritter.
I just wanted to refresh the details in my head.
Also helpful on the page would be examples or pics of his gear to see colors and styles.
Also link trip reports from crag man and others done last year in area.
Thanks all!
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Alpineholydog
Trad climber
Spring Tx
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Jun 28, 2014 - 12:58pm PT
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thanks again…Much simpler.
Logical areas of focus would be different approaches to each minaret given the gear he took and his boots. The not taking the helmut still bugs me…
Are there any accounts of how the campground manager found his stuff? Was it well put together like he was away or was there any haphazardness to it such as he left in a hurry?
Any new or unpublished or (buried on internet) accounts from people at the campground?
Still firm on the cell signals? (location and times)
Not meaning to dredge up bad vibes but just want to think about it logically again.
Thanks!
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pacarockhound
Social climber
Escondido CA
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Jun 28, 2014 - 01:14pm PT
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My thoughts continue to be with Matt and his family and I hope there is closure soon. Thank you to all who are continuing to search.
A thought, not really pertinent to Matt's search but regarding firefighter Mike Herdman. In some of his photos I see a startling resemblance to Matt. (Is it just me?)
Also, wondering if any of you hikers have any thoughts on Mike's disappearance/death...I guess pending autopsy results.......
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phylp
Trad climber
Millbrae, CA
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Jun 28, 2014 - 09:45pm PT
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Let Matt's family know that a lot of us in the climbing community, who didn't know Matt before he went missing, still think of him. I was just over at the Shady Rest campground a couple of weeks ago, still seeing the signs up about Matt around town.
Best Wishes to all searchers, Phyl
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SplitPants
Social climber
LA
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Jun 29, 2014 - 12:10pm PT
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Dean,
Glad to hear you and all the others are still searching. We will be up later in July.
We wish you and everyone success and safety out there.
Brooke
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JNCalif
Social climber
Hoboken, NJ by way of Orange County, CA
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Jun 29, 2014 - 02:24pm PT
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Hoping and praying that answers will be found and Matt's family will have closure. Continually inspired by the climbing community coming together to find Matt. Will be watching for updates.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Jun 29, 2014 - 07:29pm PT
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Cragman...Theater...? that does look like IMAX..? rj
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Jun 29, 2014 - 07:41pm PT
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Cragman
I believe the caption on the pic is misleading. Isn't that a shot you took last summer on your first search foray?
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Footloose
Trad climber
Lake Tahoe
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Jun 29, 2014 - 07:52pm PT
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Hey is anyone recording gps tracks on this search and area? I'm recalling all my many sets of tracks in my areas of climbing, running, mountaineering and such and imagine such systematic record-keeping might be useful. Also, I'll be heading down probably in July to check out Clyde Minaret, etc.. Early intentions are likely to include one of the 4th class approaches to summit and then other interesting stuff. Does anyone know if these have been systematically checked yet? I'm sure to have my GPS "My Tracks" app with me and I could post up my tracks if useful to anyone. Good luck.
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pacarockhound
Social climber
Escondido CA
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Jun 29, 2014 - 10:44pm PT
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Dean, re your comment about keeping Mike Herdman info off of this thread. I understand entirely, and will leave it at that.
I could not, however, find any forums/threads relating to Mike Herdman.
Are there any? I am wanting to know what the supertopo hikers' thoughts are.
My best to Tiffany and family!
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tdg119
Social climber
Northampton, PA
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Jun 30, 2014 - 11:21am PT
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Good afternoon everyone.
My dad has been keeping a trail journal and yes, we've been recording his GPS coords as well. I'm not so sure he'd want his real-time GPS coords out there, but I'm happy to share his previous coords to date. In addition, you can view them on this SPOT Adventure Map.
Lastly, one of the volunteers from last year had put together this Google Site with basically all of the information.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Jun 30, 2014 - 01:02pm PT
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That's an excellent website. I've just reviewed some of it to refresh my memory:
Left car at camp
No helmet
Mountaineering boots
One ice axe
Crampons, 10 years old. "Modern" crampons left behind.
Tent, sleeping bag, heavy jacket etc left behind.
Matt "always" wore his helmet when rock climbing or in dangerously loose terrain.
He often did "big days" in trail shoes.
Matt had already been into the Minarets and done at least one climb recently. A non-trivial but not technically difficult route on the Clyde Minaret.
Other info:
The shuttle bus from the Mammoth Ski resort to the Minarets trailheads doesn't start until 7:00 AM
It's a 5 mile walk from the CG to the shuttle bus. Over an hour in mountain boots.
My current observations from that info:
-To get to any technical snow and ice in July would be a very long hike from the campground, at least 10 miles. Then the climb and return. Matt knew this.
-To get 5 miles from Shady Rest CG to the shuttle bus would require a dawn start and would consume a lot of energy with a pack.
-He could walk the 5 miles to the 7:00 shuttle.
-He could have used "dial a ride" which starts at 8:00AM to get to the shuttle. That plus the Reds Meadow shuttle would get him to the trailhead not earlier than 9:30. A late start for a big day.
-It seems to me most likely he would catch a ride to the Agnew or Reds Meadow trailhead, possibly arranged in advance. He could easily catch the last shuttle back from the trailhead at 7:55 PM.
-From the end of the shuttle bus to Cecile Lake at the base of South Notch is 6 miles.
-To go to Lake Ediza (base of Ritter) he could go via Cecile Lake and Iceberg Lake or via Agnew Meadow and Lake Ediza. From Agnew Meadows is easier and about the same trail distance.
-Matt would likely not have taken his mountain boots or his ice axe if he had only planned to hike on the east side of the Minarets. There was minimal snow along that route. By midday it would have been easy travel in trail shoes.
-There are few 5th class routes in the main section of the Minarets where Matt would be likely to venture without helmet. They are steep peaks with much loose rock.
-Last summer was a low snow year (not nearly as low as this year is turning out).
-There are several excellent 2d/3d/4th class routes on Ritter, Adams Minaret, and others south of South Notch.
Many of them have low rockfall potential. (SW shoulder of Adams for example).
-He would likely have taken crampons and ice axe for the South Notch crossing from the east to west side. It can be icy and contemporaneous photos show some moats. He would have seen or crossed this area when he climbed the Clyde earlier.
-Mountaineering boots and ice axe imply he intended something like South Notch. I haven't used any other crossings so I can't speak for that.
-With just ice axe and crampons Matt would have been comfortable on the SE Gully of Ritter.
Possibly also the exposed traverse between Clyde and Ritter but see my next note.
-Cragman and Flanders had a look at that traverse about a month after Matt vanished. It had significant and very dangerous moats and crevasses. They reached a point traveling South from the slopes above Iceberg where they didn't want to continue. This is the region I believe they're going into again today.
-I crossed that traverse in early season on deep snow which obscured most of the danger. About half way, above Iceberg Lake I was sorry I was out there. Frightened even. Even with deep, firm snow it's dangerous. On ice......
-If Matt fell into one of those moats he may not be found for many years.
-if Matt fell on the traverse and didn't land in a moat, he could have slid and bounced all the way to Iceberg Lake. If so, there would likely be some of his clothing or gear left in the path. (sorry to be so graphic)
-Amphitheater Lake, in the rockbound basin between Clyde and Adams Minarets, Iceberg and Cecile lakes are all steep sided, cold and deep. With pack, crampons and boots Matt would have little chance to survive a fall or slide into one of them. It's unlikely they can ever be searched.
I'll go back over what we already know and try to put some more thoughts together in the next day or two.
question: What is the chance Matt rented a bicycle for the day to get to the trailhead?
EDIT:
I didn't mean to imply Matt would have trouble on South Notch. I was pointing out the extensive presence of moats at the time. He almost certainly would have cruised South Notch if he'd gone that way to satisfying objectives.
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crankster
Trad climber
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Jun 30, 2014 - 03:29pm PT
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His climbing partners, Jill & John, should be able to confirm if he was using this in the week prior to his disappearance.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Jun 30, 2014 - 04:50pm PT
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That knife looks like it has been out there for more than a year, a lot more.
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CA.Timothy
climber
California
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Jun 30, 2014 - 05:53pm PT
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"The shuttle bus from the Mammoth Ski resort to the Minarets trailheads doesn't start until 7:00 AM
It's a 5 mile walk from the CG to the shuttle bus. Over an hour in mountain boots.
My current observations from that info:
-To get to any technical snow and ice in July would be a very long hike from the campground, at least 10 miles. Then the climb and return. Matt knew this.
-To get 5 miles from Shady Rest CG to the shuttle bus would require a dawn start and would consume a lot of energy with a pack.
-He could walk the 5 miles to the 7:00 shuttle.
-He could have used "dial a ride" which starts at 8:00AM to get to the shuttle. That plus the Reds Meadow shuttle would get him to the trailhead not earlier than 9:30. A late start for a big day."
High Traverse, I can clarify some confusion with the shuttle. The first Reds Meadow bus of the day starts off at the Village at about 7:15. It picks up mountain employees and sometimes a random NPS or FS person at the Village. It gets to main lodge about 7:30. It is at Agnew by 7:50, the Postpile by 8:00, and Reds Meadow by 8:10.
I met Matthew on that first bus of the day at the Village at 7:15 AM about 4 days prior to his disappearance. He knew that he could catch the first bus at the village at that time.
It is only 1.3 miles from Shady Rest to the Village. Not that the time difference is huge, but if Matthew took the bus that day, he was almost certainly on the trail by 8 AM.
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ß Î Ø T Ç H
Boulder climber
extraordinaire
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Jun 30, 2014 - 10:34pm PT
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(taken today)
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overwatch
climber
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Knife? Looks like a chalk brush
Edit:
I see it now...that thing looks fairly old
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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CA Timothy.
Thank you very much for the important clarification. I found it quite difficult to sort out the timetables that are posted online. It was also not clear to me where the Mammoth Shuttle starts.
I met Matthew on that first bus of the day at the Village at 7:15 AM about 4 days prior to his disappearance. He knew that he could catch the first bus at the village at that time. This is new information to me. I must have missed it in my review of known facts.
BIOTCH
thanks for the current photo. That shows very sparse snow cover for the East side of the Minarets at this time of year.
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Ron Minto
Social climber
Bethlehem PA
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That bottle is a type of item that Matt would use (prob a million others as well). He did have a lot of 'OR' Outdoor Research items from clothes to hats, so im assuming he liked the brand.
He would hold on to things if they worked and wouldn’t spend a lot of money on gear just for the sake of having the latest and greatest, so a 90's water bottle fits his MO.
Here is a picture of his bike. He rode this old POS thousands of miles even though he could easily afford to get a new one. This worked for him…. We did not find a water bottle with it, even though it has a holder and he would have carried one.
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Ron Minto
Social climber
Bethlehem PA
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great TR. Someday I hope to take my kids (Bob’s granddaughters/Matts nieces) out there to experience the beauty and awe of such a wonderful place.
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jeg
Social climber
center valley,Pa
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Cragman.....Thank You!
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Big Daddy
climber
mammoth
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What kind of crampons did Matt have? I found one on Morrison yesterday.
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Big Daddy
climber
mammoth
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Not Black Diamond. Sorry
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Psilocyborg
climber
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Cragman, you've got mail. Could you get back to me ASAP so I can plan accordingly? Thanks!
Oh left out important info....looks like there is an 80% probablility I will be heading out thursday after work (7-10), and heading home monday evening (7-14)
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Psilocyborg
climber
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so to drive into devils postpile before 7am or after 7pm one must have a campsite, a boat, handicap plates, weapons(?!?), staying at the resort....anyone know of any loopholes? any locals that could get me in there before 7am?
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Psilocyborg
climber
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EKat, the way I read that is the only way you are driving in there during shuttle season is before 7, after 7, AND ONLY if you fall under one of those listed exceptions. Correct me if I am wrong though
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Psilocyborg
climber
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Jul 10, 2014 - 02:44pm PT
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Cragman, youve got mail
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Jul 10, 2014 - 09:00pm PT
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pacarockhound,
That link to the Rettenbachers is a good read. I have walked right by there without noticing.
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pacarockhound
Social climber
Escondido CA
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Jul 11, 2014 - 07:23pm PT
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I meant to include this: the definitive (and much longer)story of the Rettenbachers!
http://highwire.stanford.edu/~galic/stanford/rettenbacher/intro.html
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kenish
Gym climber
Orange County, CA
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Jul 14, 2014 - 10:16pm PT
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I am in complete awe of Cragman, friends and family of Matt, and everyone else who is unrelenting in their search even at risk and expense to their safety and spirit.
On a pragmatic note (with apologies if this dredges any bad stuff up or I'm being "keyboard quarterback")....last summer a retired police officer noted a person in the Minden area who loosely fit Matt's description. But like every other frustrating lead, it evaporated into thin air like Matt has. Several weeks ago, a road crew found remains off the highway at Spooner Summit in the Tahoe area. That's not far from Minden, and 2 hours' drive from Mammoth. A recent post mentioned this. Has anyone followed up with the Medical Examiner's office up there? Since family is in the area right now it could expedite or assist in the ME's investigation.
The backcountry search is focusing on Cragman and others' keen instinct on where Matt was most likely to hike and climb, much like Clyde's instincts 80 years ago. Certainly that should continue but what if he's not in the Mammoth area at all? I recall some scenarios were explored and ruled out, but it's a big world......
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LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
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Jul 14, 2014 - 11:25pm PT
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Kenish said:
On a pragmatic note (with apologies if this dredges any bad stuff up or I'm being "keyboard quarterback")....last summer a retired police officer noted a person in the Minden area who loosely fit Matt's description. But like every other frustrating lead, it evaporated into thin air like Matt has. Several weeks ago, a road crew found remains off the highway at Spooner Summit in the Tahoe area. That's not far from Minden, and 2 hours' drive from Mammoth. A recent post mentioned this. Has anyone followed up with the Medical Examiner's office up there? Since family is in the area right now it could expedite or assist in the ME's investigation.
Kenish, I agree with your general point that though an accident in the Ritter Range is likely, other scenarios are possible. However, with respect to the remains found at Spooner Summit, Tiffany has told me that they did follow up with the Medical Examiner, and the remains were not Matt's. I think she found out just before leaving for Mammoth.
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crankster
Trad climber
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Jul 15, 2014 - 06:50am PT
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Wow, that's a great lead. Are there any more details of the conversation you can provide?
That narrows the search area considerably,
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crankster
Trad climber
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Jul 15, 2014 - 09:09am PT
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I'm eager to hear. "The Minaret's"; very specific, as opposed to saying Mt. Ritter or Banner...
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tdg119
Social climber
Northampton, PA
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Jul 15, 2014 - 09:13am PT
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Supposedly there are other campers expected who will be following up as well. Any bit of extra info helps. Nice to know our perseverance with posters and Facebook are not in vain.
Fingers crossed for more leads ...
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crankster
Trad climber
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Jul 15, 2014 - 09:29am PT
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Yes, fingers crossed. The climbing community is fairly small and it's easy for us to think that every climber or back-country hiker would tune into this forum, but that's obviously not the case.
Again, I hope for closure soon for Matthew's family's sake.
And not to get too far ahead here, but I would be curious if these new developments might initiate a formal search. I'm sure Chief Watson has/is being updated.
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Psilocyborg
climber
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Jul 15, 2014 - 10:31am PT
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South notch=crampons
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kenish
Gym climber
Orange County, CA
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Jul 15, 2014 - 11:38am PT
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Thank you for the update/follow up on Spooner Summit.
It doesn't surprise me that many are unaware of Matt's disappearance. Myself for example; I visit Mammoth 1-2x every summer to go mountain biking and hiking. Although I'm very net-savvy and spend way too much time online, I was only aware of Matt's disappearance through the Mammoth Times website. That piqued my interest and led to the FB page and then to this forum. So most visitors to Mammoth who sightsee, fish, bike, tailgate camp, etc. are presumably unaware of the search and may have interacted with Matt since he seemed to make an impression upon everyone he met. So the effort to refresh posters in the area is spot on!
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Jul 15, 2014 - 12:15pm PT
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The term "Minarets" is often extended to include Ritter and Banner.
Ritter gets a lot of traffic by the SE glacier/gully. Banner not so much.
I believe the high bowl/snowfield and Ritter - Banner Saddle between them is not often visited.
From Mountain Project
lots of snow/ice leading up to Ritter/Banner saddle and lots of loose rock in the chute Sounds like Matthew's idea of a grand day out.
2008 (a big snow year) photos here:
http://www.mountainproject.com/v/north-face/105810186
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crusher
climber
Santa Monica, CA
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Jul 15, 2014 - 12:35pm PT
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Wow...just goes to show you can't put up enough posters in enough places or spread the word far enough. Or let up for that matter. Amazing luck that these same folks came back this year and to Shady Rest again.
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CCT
Trad climber
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Jul 15, 2014 - 02:24pm PT
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This is not to say that it's not worth looking again, but the saddle between Ritter and Banner does get climbed frequently. We were up there a few weeks after Matt's disappearance last year, and climbed Banner from the saddle. Crampons and ice-axe were needed only for a few hundred feet, and maybe not even that for a sure-footed person. We saw no sign of Matt. We also met a man who "skied" the short snowfield that same weekend; to give you a sense of how small it was, at most he got 3-4 turns.
Of course, there is a large talus field at the base of the snow hike, and we did not look behind every boulder. Nor did we peer into every part of the moat between the snow and the rock.
Best of luck to any searchers!
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ß Î Ø T Ç H
Boulder climber
extraordinaire
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Jul 15, 2014 - 11:10pm PT
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... there is a large talus field at the base of the snow hike, and we did not look behind every boulder. Nor did we peer into every part of the moat between the snow and the rock.
Could be a good area for Cragman et al to work.
Otherwise, it seems most likely the remains will ultimately be discovered by a random person who gets off route, or retreats from something, on a path almost never trodden.
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crankster
Trad climber
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Jul 16, 2014 - 07:03am PT
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Wow, that's huge. If it's a Petzl Quark he can't be far away from the find.
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dit
Mountain climber
eastside
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Jul 16, 2014 - 09:06am PT
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"I'm working on tracking down a subject who came out of the backcountry and reported that he and his partner found a broken ice axe shaft with the head missing.......in the Minarets.
Just saying; if it's an old Chounard northwall hammer (wood shaft) in the vicinity of Michael Minaret, it's mine.
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Seamstress
Trad climber
Yacolt, WA
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Jul 16, 2014 - 01:48pm PT
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Good to say that he is not forgotten.
We have our own missing climber to find from one year ago. As soon as the snow retreats a bit more, we are planning a multi-agnecy search-a-thon. I have been out officially for this person several days, and have kept my eyes open on all my training days on the mountain thus far this year. FOr clarity's sake, I was not "misplaced" but merely expanding my serach paraeters during my bushwahacking espeditions this season.
Every year we do at least one "cold case" as a good exercise and occasionally with some success.
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LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
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Jul 16, 2014 - 03:20pm PT
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I'm glad there have been some leads! While we're waiting for more info re the ice axe handle, here's a compilation of info and some questions re the Minarets.*
According to SplitPants's very helpful timeline, Matt climbed Riegelhuth Minaret on 7/8/13 and Clyde Minaret on 7/11/13 (this one confirmed by his signature in the summit register). Given that Matt tended not to repeat climbs, I suspect that neither of those Minarets was his objective on 7/17/13.
There has been some discussion on this thread about what Minarets might fit with Matt's gear -- the ice axe/crampons and the absence of his helmet. In this post, HighTraverse says the following:
South Notch itself, Kehrlein and Starr can all be done "safely" sans helmet. With axe and crampons, chance of taking a big fall on South Notch is very small. There are "walkup" class 3-4 routes with no snow on Starr, Adams and Kehrlein that also wouldn't turn Matt back if he had no helmet.
HighTraverse also comments on a report by someone climbed the NW route on Kehrlein (among many other things) in mid-August of last summer, though the guy wasn't looking for Matt.
Harv Galic posted this slightly alarming account of climbing to Starr Minaret a little later in the summer, on July 31, 2013 -- he found the South Notch difficult to negotiate and reports a little flood on the snowfield. (Fits with what Ron Anderson said about the Minarets being dicey.)
I don't think it's known whether Matt climbed Michael Minaret, but the summary site reports that Teddy found that his signature was not in the register at the plaque honoring Walter "Pete" Starr. I gather that the plaque is some ways from Starr's gravesite, leading HighTraverse to ask
What's the chance he went to NW face of Michael Minaret to look for Peter Starr's resting place?
Would Matt's lack of a helmet (coupled with his tendency to wear one when appropriate) have made it unlikely that he attempted to look for Pete Starr's grave on 7/17/13, or is that still a possibility?
Harv Galic's report mentions that there was no summit register on Starr Minaret. Does anyone happen to know whether there are registers on Kehrlein or Adams Minaret, and whether those were checked last year? Are there other Minarets or routes up them that might fit with Matt's gear?
I gather that the two main routes to the Minarets are from Agnew Meadows and from Devil's Postpile. (So would a person going to the Minarets and taking the shuttle get out at one of those two stops?) If Matt's destination was the South Notch, is one of these routes more likely than the other? (Are there other areas within the Minarets besides the South Notch that would require an ice axe and crampons?)
*I'm focusing on the Minarets proper despite HighTraverse's interesting point that people sometimes refer to the Minarets, Ritter, & Banner as "the Minarets." At least in Matt's conversations with the Morales family, it sounds to me as if he referred to these locations separately; maybe Jill and John can clarify whether he was likely to lump them.
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John Duffield
Mountain climber
New York
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Jul 16, 2014 - 03:42pm PT
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If it's this one, it's not a petzle quark
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John Duffield
Mountain climber
New York
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Jul 16, 2014 - 04:30pm PT
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My friends took the pic on Rock Route last summer, about a week or so after Matthew Greene went missing, and the handle looked like it had been there for much longer.
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crankster
Trad climber
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Jul 16, 2014 - 05:54pm PT
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Nice points, LAhiker. I've been looking through Secor trying to put myself in Matt's place. I'm leaning towards Ken or Michael Minaret.
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CA.Timothy
climber
California
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Jul 16, 2014 - 07:10pm PT
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The missing helmet detail is so weird. Is Matt the kind of cautious where he would decide not to do a climb if he realized he had forgotten his helmet? Why would he head into that loose stuff on Michael if wearing a helmet was his MO?
EDIT
I looked at one of the sites made for matt and answered my own question I guess.
Quote from climbing friends Jill & John "I asked my husband "Would Matt climb easy 5 class rock without a helmet? ' This was his response...Possibly. But the decision to wear the helmet would be more a function of the nature of the terrain he planned to visit, the potential for rock or ice fall, the potential of other people climbing above, etc. He might wear a helmet on a less technical climb with poor rock quality and choose not wear a helmet on a harder climb with clean rock. From what I saw in the Minarets, there aren't too many places I would be comfortable without a helmet. That's one of the things that's never made sense to me with this whole thing; why he wouldn't have a helmet in that area."
Per Jill "From what i observed from Matt if he needed a helmet for a climb and forgot it. he wouldn't do the climb!!! I don't see him forgetting his helmet."
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Ron Minto
Social climber
Bethlehem PA
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Jul 16, 2014 - 08:24pm PT
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When Matt said "I'm going to the minarets tomorrow, " to me, means he meant exactly that. He would not mix words. instead, he would have said I am going to Clyde or a specific peak. I know nothing about the area or hiking, so if this a stupid question, please let me know. I have thick skin.
Is it possible to traverse the minarets without attempting a peak? For example, can a person move along the area, in a relatively safe way (3rd class), and say "I hiked the minarets"?
If so, what is the size of the area? Just curious, I understand the terrain and that regardless of the square miles/km the size is not relatively significant.
Also- seamstress...thanks and keep a weather eye on the horizon.
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Kalimon
Social climber
Ridgway, CO
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Jul 16, 2014 - 08:26pm PT
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If it is your time . . . no helmet will be required.
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Ron Minto
Social climber
Bethlehem PA
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Jul 16, 2014 - 08:32pm PT
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Kalimon - if you can please only add insight of value that would be highly appreciated.
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Kalimon
Social climber
Ridgway, CO
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Jul 16, 2014 - 08:34pm PT
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Whatever Ron.
Carry on bro.
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crankster
Trad climber
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Jul 16, 2014 - 08:40pm PT
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Ron, good question. Answer: a climber would not "hike" the Minarets. It wouldn't make sense. It's all broken talus & scree, difficult to navigate. You endure it to get to a summit, but you wouldn't traverse it for any logical reason.
I agree on your point about him specifically heading to the Minaret's, not an adjacent peak like Mt. Ritter. My only hesitation on giving that a 100% is if he was talking to a group of hikers new to the area, not climbers, he might have mentioned a landmark they would easily recognize.
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ß Î Ø T Ç H
Boulder climber
extraordinaire
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Jul 16, 2014 - 09:21pm PT
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... you wouldn't traverse it for any logical reason. Apparently Croft didn't get the memo.
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crankster
Trad climber
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Jul 17, 2014 - 06:39am PT
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Croft did summits. The question was about hiking around the base. Let's don't sweat the small stuff...
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Ron Minto
Social climber
Bethlehem PA
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Jul 17, 2014 - 02:46pm PT
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crankster, thanks for answering my question. It's clear now.
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LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
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Jul 20, 2014 - 11:19pm PT
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With Tiffany’s blessing, I’m trying to generate more leads by getting photos of pages from summit registers in the Minarets from the time around and after Matt disappeared on Wednesday, July 17, 2013 – say, from ~7/12/13 to ~7/31/13.
This is not to see whether Matt signed the registers (for most likely Minarets we know this), but rather to find the names of people who may have seen or interacted with him or who could provide other useful information. People who signed the registers before or on that Wednesday might have spoken with Matt, might have still been camping/climbing in the area, or might have been hiking out when he was hiking in. People signing registers later in the month might have seen some of his gear or noticed something amiss.
SAR has already done this with Ritter and Banner, taking pictures of the relevant pages and trying to reach people who might have seen Matt.
I think the most frequently climbed Minaret is Clyde, so it might be especially helpful to get pictures of the relevant pages from that register, but other registers may also be helpful. So, if you have pictures of pages of Minaret registers within this time period, please send me a message.
Some Minarets don’t have registers. Here’s a list of the more southerly Minarets, with comments about their summit registers:
And here are the more northerly Minarets:
Some of the info about the registers isn't very recent, so please let me know if there are any errors or things to add. Thanks!
BTW, it’s great that we have the “Minarets” lead from the campers -- I hope we get more leads through people seeing the flyers...
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crankster
Trad climber
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Jul 21, 2014 - 07:03am PT
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Excellent work, LAhiker.
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ß Î Ø T Ç H
Boulder climber
extraordinaire
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Jul 21, 2014 - 09:49pm PT
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Was hoping for (usually good) view of Ritter Range from above McCloud Lake today, but cloudy/ bad light (I blame mother nature).
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Jul 22, 2014 - 03:46pm PT
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Ron posted the following very useful info and I want to make some observations:
When Matt said "I'm going to the minarets tomorrow, " to me, means he meant exactly that. In casual talk this could include Ritter and Banner. I've sometimes meant to include R&B when I've said "Minarets"
Is it possible to traverse the minarets without attempting a peak? For example, can a person move along the area, in a relatively safe way (3rd class), and say "I hiked the minarets"? unlike crankster I would say yes, depending on how you define traverse and hike. For me, 3d class is "hiking". I'd guess Matt might make the same simplification.
Let's take a loose meaning.
Then with mountain boots and axe one can hike easily from Ediza to Iceberg Lake to Cecile then, over South Notch, all around Amphitheater Lake, around the Southwest side of Adams and even climb Adams, 2d class.
One could continue along the scenic and not so often visited western base all the way to Ritter Pass (not officially named), then back to Ediza. You might want an axe on South Notch and Ritter Pass. I'd carry one.
From what we know of Matt, this would be a big day but not impossible. A fine, moderate finish to an excellent climbing trip. Obviously the entire circuit isn't necessary, one could go outbound till reasonably tired, or watching the clock, and return the same way.
If so, what is the size of the area? Just curious, I understand the terrain and that regardless of the square miles/km the size is not relatively significant.
Better to think in terms of travel hours than miles. See my note above.
For Matt's day out we have to include from one of the trailheads in Devil's Postpile. Most likely the northern Agnew Meadow TH. Two - three hours from TH to Iceberg (northern route) or Cecile (southern route) lakes. More like 2 hours for Matt with a light pack.
Minarets / Ritter-Banner routes that Secor lists as 3d class are candidates for Matt without helmet. I'll make a complete list this week and post it here. (I won't have time tonight or tomorrow)
Another note. We've recently learned of a good climber (can't remember his name just now) falling and breaking his leg descending Goddard. Not a difficult route. A misstep in big talus or above a moat can quickly become a serious problem when alone. We don't need to be even on 3d class terrain to come to grief.
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crankster
Trad climber
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Jul 22, 2014 - 05:27pm PT
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I don't think that's an unreasonable scenario, HT. Certainly in the realm of possibility given all that is known. It doesn't change the potential search area much, which is basically the entire Ritter/Banner/Minarets region.
Sure wish I could ask him, "Hey, Matt, why'd you leave your helmet behind?" (Among some other very obvious questions)
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Capt.
climber
some eastside hovel
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Jul 22, 2014 - 05:35pm PT
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Not to be a stickler Biotch, but it's Mcleod Lake.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Jul 22, 2014 - 09:59pm PT
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Capt...it's McLoud when it's overcast...rj
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Capt.
climber
some eastside hovel
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Jul 22, 2014 - 10:10pm PT
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RJ-Yeah,looks like BIOTCHs pic is in Mcloud conditions. :-)
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ß Î Ø T Ç H
Boulder climber
extraordinaire
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Jul 22, 2014 - 10:52pm PT
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Thanks Capt. It's been so long since I refer to maps, or signage I plum forgot.
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tdg119
Social climber
Northampton, PA
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Jul 23, 2014 - 08:55am PT
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Here's a panorama I took of the mountain range on the anniversary of Matt's disappearance; hiked with my dad up to Ediza.
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Climberdude
Trad climber
Fresno, CA
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Jul 23, 2014 - 11:54am PT
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I frequently climb at Shuteye and The Balls areas to the west of the Minarets. Has anyone tried looking on the west side of the Minarets for signs of Matt? I realize that it is highly unlikely the he could have been climbing on that side since he would have had to climb over to the west side, but if he was on a ridge when something happened, there may be evidence on the west side. Would someone be able to easily approach the west side from the east where he was staying?
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LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
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Just a reminder -- if you happen to be climbing any Minarets during this brief break from the thunderstorms/smoke/whatever, in addition to being on the lookout for signs of Matt, please photograph any summit register pages with entries from between ~7/12/13 and 7/31/13. That will help us try to reach people who might have seen or spoken with Matt before he disappeared on 7/17/13 or who might have noticed some of his gear or something else amiss afterward.
Note that Matt climbed Clyde Minaret and signed its summit register on 7/11/13 and that he climbed Riegelhuth Minaret on 7/8/13 (no register). Even though he probably didn't climb Clyde again, we're very interested in the pages from that Minaret, because more people climb it than the other Minarets.
Not all of the Minarets have summit registers -- here's my earlier post with details about the summit registers of various Minarets.
In addition to Clyde, I'd be most interested in pages from registers on Kehrlein, Ken (if it still has a register which is questionable), and Starr (if it has a register which is doubtful -- at one point it had a plastic tub under a rock). But if it's safe/convenient, please photograph those pages of the register of any Minaret you climb.
If you take any such pictures, please let me know.
Thanks!
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maverick01
climber
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Sep 15, 2014 - 04:22pm PT
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Put together a search team consisting of fellow HST members
from 9/10-9/14, lots of ground covered, and still barely touched
the surface.
Areas checked: Kehrlein-Pridham Notch, South Notch, North Notch,
Southeast Glacier, also Clyde Variation, Ritter/Banner Saddle,
The Gap, Ritter Pass, Col between Ritter and Gap, Upper Dyke
Lakes area on the eastern side, area around Minaret Lake/Cecile/
Iceberg Lakes, Glacier on the northern side of Banner, Catherine
Lake/Glacier, and Ritter Lakes, including western side of Ritter.
Glaciers were horrendous, blue ice, crampons barely make a dent.
Lots of loose rock from Ritter on down, class 2, 3, and 4, with
rock that crumbled in your hand, very loose, and very steep talus.
Did not find any evidence, but everyone in our group (6) came
out safely.
Definitely not recommended for anyone without solid route finding,
and climbing(glacier/ice included in some areas)experience, really
easy to get over your head quickly.
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LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
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Sep 15, 2014 - 11:40pm PT
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Maverick, thank you to you and your intrepid group for searching for signs of Matt in all those areas! Though no search can be definitive, you covered a whole lot of ground.
It sounds like conditions were daunting -- I'm so glad you came back safe.
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crankster
Trad climber
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Sep 16, 2014 - 06:53am PT
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Great work, maverick.
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tdg119
Social climber
Northampton, PA
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Sep 16, 2014 - 08:13am PT
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Maverick - Thank you and the group for searching for Matt; sounds like you covered a lot of ground. Every bit helps.
Thanks for the condition report too - glad you all came out safe & sound - that's the most important part of all this. I hope everyone takes your advice and stays within their abilities, whether searching for Matt or just out on an adventure.
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Jimr
climber
Redondo Beach, CA
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Sep 17, 2014 - 11:28am PT
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I was with Maverick and have come here to ask for help. Please read my request posted on another forum.
I need some help please
Postby Jimr on Tue Sep 16, 2014 10:09 pm
I saw something up on the wall of the Ritter Banner saddle. I tried to point it out to Maverick and Oleander and I think they saw what I saw, but I can't be entirely sure. It looked eerily like a black backpack with a white strip to me. I know it stood out against the surrounding rock in that the rock was very angular, rectangular, but this was oblong with no sharp angles. And the appearance of a white stripe. It was sitting on one of a series of golden colored rock slabs.
This is really bothering me and I need to research further. If anyone has a high quality image of the east side of the Ritter Banner saddle taken clear of snow before July 16th, 2013 and/or after July 20th, 2013. Please PM me. The best would be either a raw file or a 16 bit .tif file. I can process most raw formats.
If I can locate the object in place before July 16th, then it is of no interest. If I can identify the absence of the object before that time, it immediately becomes a potential item of interest and perhaps worth somebody hiking a long lens, 800mm or greater, or a powerful set of binoculars. A shot after July 20th that shows the object there would be ideal for others to possibly locate the object.
I thought that it was in a place that could be seen from the ridge, but what the hell do I know, I've been on too many ridges and saddles where you had no idea what was beneath you until you went down and this seemed too steep to safely wander down from the ridge to investigate.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Sep 17, 2014 - 01:00pm PT
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on the wall of the Ritter Banner saddle Can you be more specific in describing the location?
Make a quick sketch, take a pic and post it here?
Point out the location in one of your photos?
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maverick01
climber
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Sep 17, 2014 - 01:31pm PT
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Also there were 2 climbers we saw descend from the summit of
Leonard Minaret on 9/12 while we were at Dyke Lakes under the
western side of The Gap.
It would be great to find out whether they checked the register
for Matthew's signature.
We did not see them descend from the eastern side of The Gap after
we climbed over Ritter pass, so they may have spent the night up
near The Gap to climb Waller the next day.
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Jimr
climber
Redondo Beach, CA
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Sep 17, 2014 - 02:02pm PT
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Thank you Maverick for posting that. Yes, they stood at the ridge for some time, right where the loose talus leads to the final approach along the top. It very much appeared that one was intently searching the steep western side from peak down to the catch basin below.
If you are looking at the Ritter-Banner saddle from above Nydiver Lk., the prominent low section of the saddle and surrounding area a few hundred feet below.
Maverick, anything else you can add would be good. I need to keep my facts straight as the memories seem to be melding into one long day.
I've replaced the photo with a better one.
If anyone local to Mammoth can get out there with longer glass before the first snow of the year, it may prove fruitful to either confirm or eliminate the item of interest.
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LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
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Sep 18, 2014 - 10:09am PT
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Jimr, thanks for pursuing this. Can you say where you were when you saw the possible item of interest? From where would it be visible?
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Seamstress
Trad climber
Yacolt, WA
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Sep 18, 2014 - 10:23am PT
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We are 1 for 2 on our cold cases here this year. That 1 win, finding someone lost for months or years, sustains you.
Years ago, a family of a missing person asked the sherrif to search for their family member again. A multi-agency drill was pulled together, and the family made soup and sandwiches for the 100 volunteers that spent the weekend in the field. That case was over 10 years old. Teams often have multi-agency drills. Keep putting this infront of them, and you may get more resources.
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Jimr
climber
Redondo Beach, CA
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Sep 18, 2014 - 01:07pm PT
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What Maverick said. There was a third person with us as well. I've asked her if she has a picture taken from that spot. I may be able to get GPS coordinates.
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Jimr
climber
Redondo Beach, CA
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Sep 19, 2014 - 09:49am PT
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No go on GPS, but where Maverick has us and transposing it to the obvious high spot there using Google Earth, wgs 84 datum, we were at:
37.6895 -119.1826
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kenish
Gym climber
Orange County, CA
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Sep 19, 2014 - 07:40pm PT
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My hat is off to Maverick, Jim R and the many others who have freely given their energy, spirit, time, resources, expertise, and safety to help Matt and his loved ones reunite.
Jim- You're probably well aware that Matt's missing backpack fits your description? https://www.dropbox.com/s/mdolc54o81pu7qc/FMG%20Spring%20Flyer.pdf?n=273786315 (and look on the Facebook main photo).
What date and time did you sight the suspected item? What were sky conditions (cloudy, clear, etc)? Sun and shadow can highlight or hide items and play visual tricks. The info will help glass the area with sun angles and intensity as close as possible to your sighting. Autumnal Equinox (end of summer, boo!) is next week and the change from day to day of the sun position is at the max.
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Jimr
climber
Redondo Beach, CA
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Sep 20, 2014 - 07:32pm PT
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Sept. 13th, absolutely sunny. Saddle was in full sun, perhaps around the 11am hour. In full sun, the 2 or 3 slabs were more amber than the surrounding black rock.
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crankster
Trad climber
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Oct 13, 2014 - 07:13am PT
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Excellent work, Cragman. Be careful out there.
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Jimr
climber
Redondo Beach, CA
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Oct 24, 2014 - 05:22pm PT
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Thank you Cragman for identifying it. I wished I had had longer glass in the first place.
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ß Î Ø T Ç H
Boulder climber
extraordinaire
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Oct 24, 2014 - 11:05pm PT
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... indicating he only expected to do a day hike. Understood that he was in good shape etc, but to do Ritter or Minarets IAD using public transpo/ hitch-hiking from town is pretty ambitious.
You can make up a scenario for doing it, (topping out - getting back to the road late in the PM - hitch a ride back to Mammoth) but nobody has even come forward as to giving him a ride that morning in the first place.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Oct 24, 2014 - 11:17pm PT
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For once Biotch you and I agree. I have never thought his objective was that far out.
I have always thought his goal was one of the southern Minarets with a coulior.
Why because that is what he had time for and gear for.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Oct 25, 2014 - 07:18am PT
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You certainly would know better than anyone Dean.
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zBrown
Ice climber
Brujò de la Playa
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Oct 25, 2014 - 08:43pm PT
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U r persistent Mr. Cragman. Hope u hav a good result.
Too late now, but what if a cache of items similar to his had been dropped in the locale at a known spot, then the attempt made to track them nine months or so later later to see how the items get dispersed.
EDIT:
Then again, maybe not.
If I recall, aside from the subsequently discovered plane wreckage, some cash, ID cards and two bones (even later) were all the remained of Steve Fosset
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Jimr
climber
Redondo Beach, CA
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Oct 27, 2014 - 10:48am PT
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Cragman, you are obviously very in-tune with your gut instincts. The gateway to the soul. Most poor decisions are made when ignoring what's going on deep down inside and letting the intellect do all of the navigating.
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east side underground
climber
Hilton crk,ca
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Oct 27, 2014 - 08:35pm PT
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you guys know better than me , but i thought sar missions were based on facts and systematic proccesses of elimination not on feelings. determine all possible secnarios, , rate the locations among the search perimeter, then search these localtions , anyone check deer lakes, ram lakes , pyrimid peak, valentine canyon, iron mt, mammoth crest, pica peak? all locations accessed from mammoth? i think it's one thing to trust your gut, but isn't that why there are sar protcols?
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Vegasclimber
Trad climber
Las Vegas, NV.
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Oct 27, 2014 - 11:20pm PT
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East side, in most cases you are right. But so much time has passed now and there is so little verifiable information, that sometimes all you have to go on is feelings.
We had a subject a couple years ago that had been missing for a year when we finally found him. It was a homicide victim and we had damned little to go on - a cell ping covering most of a national recreation area. When out scouting an area, I KNEW - beyond a shadow of a doubt - we would find him there. Once we went into that area, we found him in less then 2 hours. Feelings do come into this game when there is nothing else to go on. Add to that, in cases like these long time SAR guys like Dean are into the subjects head at this point, many times surprisingly well.
Even with a verifiable last point of known location, so many factors are in play now due to the time elapsed. I salute Dean for what he's done, and admire it greatly.
Dean, when spring hits, I'm open to go out - just let me know.
Edit to add: East, sorry if it seemed like I was negating your suggestions - they are certainly viable ideas. I should have touched on that in my original post as well. Cheers!
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east side underground
climber
Hilton crk,ca
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Oct 28, 2014 - 07:44am PT
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i have the utmost respect for dean and others who have put in so much effort in the search for mattew. i was thinking since so much time has passsed, maybe it's time to start over. shady rest as ground zero, where could i walk in a day with ice gear to test out gear and have a good hike. if i head south east, valentine to parachute couliar would be doable, up duck pass, to pica and ram lakes ( a nice x-country loop dropping into valentine ) would have some snow in protected gullies. southwest over blue crag (there was snow at the time of mattew's diapearance) to deer lakes ,also snow filled gullies- great skiing by the way- to the pct and back to the lakes basin another cool loop, and west to the ritter range. north leads to san juaquin ridge, not alot of snow , maybe a very low prability area. also hadn't mattew already spent time in the ritter range? would he expend that much effort to return to a area he had alredy been to? maybe yes since he would be familar with the area or wuold he chose to check out some new terrian? dean probaby knows better than anyone but mattew was fit and bold, so maybe he tried somewhere new. just throwing it out there. i just read the account of the sar for randy morgesen, he was found in a low probility area that had been searched twice before, the interestig thing is that his wife had feelings about water and he turned up in a creek, so i guess feelings are a important part of searches. just some thoughts ,stuck on the couch after surgery with too much time on my hands. good luck and be safe
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CCT
Trad climber
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Oct 28, 2014 - 09:55am PT
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I can't make any guesses as to where Matt might have climbed, but I can speak to the conditions on the Ritter/Banner saddle last year. Our party of 4 climbed Banner not long after Matt disappeared, at the end of August. We had planned to do Ritter too, but got a late start and ran out of time.
The snowfield below the saddle was hard and scalloped. Like Cragman, we brought minimal snow gear, and found the transitions from the snow onto the unstable scree field at the top of the gully rather exciting. However, if Matt had slipped there, he would have been easily visible, given the low snow level at the time.
In several places, where the snowfield abutted the rock walls, there was a large moat, several feet wide. I don't know how deep it was, because we did not look. There is no reason that a climber attempting the saddle would have been close enough to the moats to fall in, unless they approached deliberately.
The west side of the saddle, down to Lake Catherine, was a normal-looking hard snow field interspersed with open patches of scree. Definitely not something you would want to fall down, but likely you would be able to stop yourself if you did. Very wide open, with few places to "hide."
If a person were to climb Ritter and Banner via the saddle, likely they would summit Banner first since it is much closer. The hike up Banner from the saddle is an easy class 2 or 3 scramble. The trail is used frequently, and well-marked with cairns. However, there are many small variations possible, and it would be possible to take a minor fall and end up hidden behind a block. At the time, the summit register had a lot of recent entries (sorry, no photo), which means that the route is climbed regularly by lots of different parties.
We did not climb Ritter from the saddle. The snow patch leading up to 3rd class north flank of Ritter looked hard and icy. A fall there could have been dangerous and self-arrest more tricky. A falling person could slide down the wide open snow field on the west side of the saddle towards Lake Catherine, or take a smaller ride towards the east. In both cases, the snowfield is wide open, so not an easy place to "hide."
Here are some photos from September 1, 2013. Hope this helps.
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
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Oct 28, 2014 - 11:08am PT
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you guys know better than me , but i thought sar missions were based on facts and systematic proccesses of elimination not on feelings. determine all possible secnarios, , rate the locations among the search perimeter, then search these localtions , anyone check deer lakes, ram lakes , pyrimid peak, valentine canyon, iron mt, mammoth crest, pica peak? all locations accessed from mammoth? i think it's one thing to trust your gut, but isn't that why there are sar protcols?
Some SAR cases are more fun than others. When you have done a lot of SAR cases, the ones that stay with you and haunt you are where you had the feeling to go one place and then were talked into doing something else...when if you had gone with your feelings, the person's life could have been saved...
I am burdened with three such cases where such a deep feeling proved correct. In two of those cases I let someone talk me out of doing the right thing. The first time as a teenager with the Idaho SAR team, I was tracking someone through a blizzard in the Owyhee Mountains and adults talked me into stopping for the night, fatigued from 24 hours of tracking, even though I knew the trail was fresh. Another time with the Inyo County SAR team, the person had actually managed to signal me at dusk by dropping a stuff sack into the wind off a cliff into Schober lake, but the IC ordered me by radio that I was on the wrong lake, and sent me on an all night fruitless search that nearly claimed my partner from hypothermia. The helicopter coming in for us the next morning accidentally spotted the lost person within a few yards of where I had been ordered to abandon the tracks in the blizzard. The third case in the high Sierras on a high school field trip, my son risked his life to bring two drowning classmates from the middle of Granite Lake at 9000', barely making it to a small rocky island. While he was using the last of his strength to drag the smaller kid up onto the rock, the larger kid disappeared. I was running and swimming towards him and had a choice to either climb up out of the water over the rock in warm sunshine or continue swimming around the rock in icy water, where I would probably have come face to face with his drowning classmate. I talked myself out of the right choice, climbing over the rock to reach my son. We didn't find his classmate until it was too late....right where I would have been swimming...
I can't count the number of cases where gut feelings helped save someone.
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, CA
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Oct 28, 2014 - 11:45am PT
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Thanks for the gruesome but useful accounts serving your point, Tom.
I agree too, and it's not news at all that there is more than one form of logic. Certainly more than one form when trying to hypothesize a victim's location. Fuzzy Logic---we have all heard about it--- is one such form, quite a bit more complex than mundane deduction or induction, where many values and probabilistic functions are used to form smart guesses. I would think that an army approach might get to the target no matter what if enough time, personnel, and materiel are applied, but then how blunt can we get? Meanwhile more complex approaches are to be respected, to wit, Chuck's experiences he relates.
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east side underground
climber
Hilton crk,ca
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Oct 28, 2014 - 12:06pm PT
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you experinced sar pros know better than me.........cheers
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crusher
climber
Santa Monica, CA
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Oct 28, 2014 - 01:15pm PT
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Dean has also spent a lot of time with Matthew's Dad, learning about Matthew - his past, his personality, his patterns. If anyone has any kind of gut feeling as to what Matthew may have been thinking or wanting to do that day, it's probably Dean.
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east side underground
climber
Hilton crk,ca
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Oct 28, 2014 - 01:34pm PT
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if you read my post above , i said just that, just putting out some other secnarios for discussion, that all. cheers
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, CA
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Oct 28, 2014 - 02:14pm PT
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east side, no one is debating you. What you contributed it important.
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SplitPants
Social climber
LA
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Oct 30, 2014 - 06:48pm PT
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Thanks for the update Dean. Hopefully next summer you can find Matthew and write a nice Epilogue when your book goes to print. Good on ya as always. I am sure Matthew's family and friends greatly appreciate all you have done.
Instincts are so important I know mine have saved myself a couple of times. Sometimes the "feelings" one gets.......one just knows........
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crankster
Trad climber
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I image Matthew heading out on the last day of his life thinking it was a day in the mountains, like so many other days before. No cause for alarm, just a day in search of adventure in the high alpine. He gave little thought, I suspect, as do most of us, to what an accident would do to others, much less himself.
What went wrong, we will know someday, I trust. That will help.
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Psilocyborg
climber
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You are wrong cragman.....its worth it. You know why? It couldn't possibly be any other way. Whatever happened is the only way it could have happened.
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Alpineholydog
Trad climber
Spring Tx
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Dec 12, 2014 - 02:51pm PT
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Has there been any information as to how Matthew's Camp was found by the caretaker of the campground? Was it disrupted or pretty well "tucked in" like he left it to go on his hike?
He stays in our thoughts...
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Alpineholydog
Trad climber
Spring Tx
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Dec 13, 2014 - 06:32am PT
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Thanks Cragman. I think he went for Ritter Banner as well. It just makes sense given his equipment.We have been up to Nydiver and the whole area leading up to the east facing chute the last 2 years always w him in mind. Glad you made it out ok after searching that chute and east part of the saddle. Very dangerous area for sure.
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ß Î Ø T Ç H
Boulder climber
extraordinaire
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May 23, 2015 - 09:35pm PT
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I had a distant goal of ascending Blue Crag Coulior this season to have look.
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crankster
Trad climber
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May 24, 2015 - 06:52am PT
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You'd be the one to ask, cragman...any information in the last year that would steer you away from the Ritter/Banner area? I have a climb of Ritter planned this summer. It's always seemed liked the most likely choice to me. What a gift to the family it would be to bring closure.
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crankster
Trad climber
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May 24, 2015 - 07:06am PT
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SE Glacier. I've always thought that he was looking to tag Ritter and get back, get his car and head to CO.
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canyoncat
Social climber
SoCal
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May 24, 2015 - 09:26am PT
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Safe journeys, and best wishes for bringing him home.
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Gene
climber
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May 24, 2015 - 01:22pm PT
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Dean,
There is something so alluring about the Catherine Lake side of Ritter and Banner. It's a good place to search. Wish I could join you. Be safe.
Gene
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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May 25, 2015 - 02:34pm PT
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Hello there Dean.
I expect to be sufficiently rehabilitated by late June/early July for a Minarets trip to look for Matthew. I still think of him often and would like to help his family and friends. Keep in touch.
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Alpineholydog
Trad climber
Spring Tx
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Jun 10, 2015 - 08:37pm PT
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Cragman.
Matthew signed summit logs I believe I read. If so he should have signed Ritter or Banner if he bagged them. The east approach to saddle is well traveled these 2 yrs without sign. The proper chute to ascend Ritter can be confused either on way up or down. Scanning the northwest slope of Ritter seems reasonable. The glacier down to Lake Catherine is only occasionally hiked but not devoid of traffic. It would seem that someone would have spotted some gear over there. Matthew is either up on that slope of Ritter or in a similar area over on Minirets. Pretty hard to mess up Banner as there is a mildly difficult route find but correctable and not treacherous. Weather clear that day. Might have gotten turned around a bit on decsent but why no summit log signed. Have summit loggers from that day all been contacted fro Ritter and Banner? Just feels like a slight wrong turn w a fall.
Sorry if this all so obvious.
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ß Î Ø T Ç H
Boulder climber
extraordinaire
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Jun 30, 2015 - 11:54pm PT
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Heard about some incident at Minaret Falls today on my scanner, but no details.
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SplitPants
Social climber
LA
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Jul 17, 2015 - 06:07am PT
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Bump
Thinking of Matt. It has been 2 years now:(
Hugs to his family and friends
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pacarockhound
Social climber
Escondido CA
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Jul 17, 2015 - 05:48pm PT
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Maverick 101,
That September outing sounds good, as does all the other searches.
Thank you all for continuting the search. I hope to make it to Mammoth myself this autumn at some point and will do what I can.
My heart goes out to Tiffany, family and friends.
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DataJunkie
climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Jul 23, 2015 - 12:22am PT
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@Cragman
I am still sticking with this region, and in particular, the notch between Ritter and Banner...and more specifically, the gully on the west side that leads down to Catherine Lakes.
I remember earlier in the thread you thought Matt may have tried Michael Minaret. Out of curiosity, what changed your mind?
Today I "hiked" to the end of the Agnew Meadows Campground road while looking for the Wildflower Loop (which I finally found). I was happy to see new posters in this area near PCT and the one below, which was at the beginning of an unmarked trail that I think leads to Ediza or Shadow. These posters seem to be new, which is good considering the wind, rain, snow. I also saw some at Red's Meadow, and I think a few in town.
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tdg119
Social climber
Northampton, PA
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Jul 24, 2015 - 10:04am PT
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Ahh, that poster gave us particular issues putting it up - about a year ago on the dot. Was the tape holding better on the others, I hope? I don't want them becoming litter in landscape.
Thanks everyone who continues to think of us. We do follow along, we're just the quiet type.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Jul 25, 2015 - 06:15pm PT
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Thanks Cragman and everyone else involved.
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DataJunkie
climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Jul 28, 2015 - 12:33am PT
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Was the tape holding better on the others, I hope?
Yeah, the others look great. Someone must have put up new ones, I am imagining around the 17th, because they did not look weathered at all. The poster in the pic I showed looked like it was in a plastic protector sleeve that fell apart. I didn't notice any litter from tape or anything.
On a side note, this forest is a nice place for solitude for me, but I always can't help but feel the secrets that it holds. Matt's case being the most recent and the one that I am interested in seeing resolved, but also Steve Fosset's plane crash (found), and the slew of skiers and boarders that have gone missing in the Red's Meadow Valley (most lived to tell their story, one didn't).
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DataJunkie
climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Has anyone seen this?
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crankster
Trad climber
No. Tahoe
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"hobnails" makes in unlikely to be connected to this case.
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Seamstress
Trad climber
Yacolt, WA
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It is a good time of the year, especially with low snow last year, to find clues in the back country. I hoped to participate on a couple of those this fall. Unfortunately, I fell and won't be healed enough in the bear future. Good luck. I hope some information is discovered.
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10b4me
Social climber
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Has anyone seen this?
Interesting, though. Wonder how long they have been buried?
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maverick01
climber
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Yes, heard of this report several days ago, but have not gotten confirmation on whether they were the same La Sportiva Nepal Extreme boots Matthew had on 7/17/13, but from the description, it sound like they are from a earlier time.
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maverick01
climber
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All the ice I've encountered is bulletproof.
Great, blue ice like last year, will make things interesting during our search next week.
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maverick01
climber
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Confirmed: They are not Matthews, unfortunately.
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LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
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Cragman, thanks for searching despite the smoky, windy, and dangerous conditions. I hope you recover quickly from surgery. Please take care.
Maverick, thanks for working to get more information about Matt's likely route and for organizing the upcoming search. I hope it goes well and that y'all stay safe.
(Though I've been lurking lately, I think of Matt often and hope some sign of him is found soon.)
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WBraun
climber
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Spring ... 1971?
We pulled 4 bodies off Banner the fifth guy (leader) walked the wrong way west and lived .....
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Heal up, Dean! No doubt you'll be hand jammin' in a few weeks.
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The Chief
climber
Lurkerville east of Goldenville
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Go get to it Dean.... Suppose to clear up on Friday, maybe.
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Sierra Ledge Rat
Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
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Heal fast and well, Cragman
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ß Î Ø T Ç H
Boulder climber
ne'er–do–well
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Spring ... 1971?
We pulled 4 bodies off Banner the fifth guy (leader) walked the wrong way west and lived ..... Dill did a slideshow at the clinic one time, and had an image of that recovery - a boot sticking vertically out of the snow (person still attached) made an impression on me.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Goldenville west of Lurkerville
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Dean...That's nasty looking...Noticed the bandage when i saw you a few weeks ago and noticed Cups slung arm ...Thought maybe you 2 traded blows but decided not to pry..rj
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maverick01
climber
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Sep 16, 2015 - 04:56pm PT
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Unfortunately we were unsuccessful in finding any evidence.:(
We spent hours searching the fall zones, and the base of the glaciers, on the Southeast Glacier, including the Clyde variation, and the Ritter-Banner Saddle routes, each on separate days, to allow a good combing of the areas, but to be honest, a large group could spend weeks in just one of these areas, and still easily miss something.
We also checked the route between Ediza-Minaret Lakes, a couple of times, since Matt mentioned it being one of his objectives while in Mammoth.
Also climbed up beyond Deadhorse Lake to the check the falls zones right underneath Kehrlein Minaret, rough country.
All these areas are very steep, unstable terrain, which no one without at least a solid class 3 background should attempt.
These results will not deter us from continuing our efforts to bring closure for the Greene Family, a fellow mountain brother. As long as their are folks, who have the experience, the more importantly the willingness, to continue to search, we shall do what can to bring a successful closure for all.
So our search continues.....
PS Wishing you a quick and full recovery D.
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crankster
Trad climber
No. Tahoe
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Sep 16, 2015 - 05:19pm PT
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Great effort, maverick. Have you posted a more detailed report of your search w/maps?
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maverick01
climber
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Sep 16, 2015 - 05:36pm PT
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How many were you in your search party?
Not nearly enough, the majority unfortunately cancelled as we got closer to the start, some had life, family or work issues, some just lost interest, which is why I have the utmost admiration for those who were willing to take time off from work, be away from family, and tackle such dangerous terrain, without even knowing Matt. Truly great and inspiring souls, that enforces my belief, that their is hope for humanity.
Smoke was bad on some days, especially Sat, visibility was very low, but did not impact search, some days had ash on, and in our tents.
Monday it rained non stop from around 10:30 on, got back to tents soaked from Minaret Lake, found the meadow where we were set-up flooding, so we packed up and headed out, which was the right decision, because it rained the rest of the day, and into the night, also their was a dusting of snow on Ritter, and some of the Minarets, as we headed out, temps dropped quickly, 39F at 8 am the next morning in Mammoth.
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maverick01
climber
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Sep 16, 2015 - 06:00pm PT
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12.5% of the 40 who said they were interested in helping. :)
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kief
Trad climber
east side
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Sep 17, 2015 - 10:50am PT
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Would this be the same "maverick" who posted this rant when members of another forum failed to step up for an amateur SAR when a hiker was missing in the Taboose Pass area?
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crankster
Trad climber
No. Tahoe
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Sep 17, 2015 - 11:57am PT
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Who the hell cares? I believe he apologized for that...not a big deal. He puts himself out there looking for lost souls. Good for him.
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ron gomez
Trad climber
fallbrook,ca
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Be safe Dean!
Peace
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Best Wishes!
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TYeary
Social climber
State of decay
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be safe Dean, good luck.
TY
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Alpineholydog
Trad climber
Spring Tx
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Good travels Cragman. Thinking about all you guys still out there. Upon more reflection it still stands out that he took the crampons without the helmet. Ritter/Banner still seems right.
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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Looks kinda snowey down here DEAN. Got the white stuff around 7K behind and above my house.
Looking across the valley, looks whiter at around the same alt.
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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Suppose to warm up by Tuesday throgh Friday.
Be safe... prayers will be guarding ya! ;]
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ß Î Ø T Ç H
Boulder climber
ne'er–do–well
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Forecast looks good.
Have a nice trip.
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crankster
Trad climber
No. Tahoe
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Good luck, cragman. Be safe. Looks like a good forecast, after today.
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overwatch
climber
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You are a committed individual. All respect to you.
Edit;
2300 posts... some believe that the number 23 heralds life changing events. Maybe this is the trip? stay safe out there
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scooter
climber
fist clamp
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I have run around the NF of RItter since this guy has been gone. I didn't see any cloth ball piles, shards of equipment or birds picking. Quite few people climb those peaks from the North side.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
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Looking forward to it !
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John M
climber
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and It seemed odd to me how dressed out, and meticulously the original post is constructed.
this was an ongoing thing. A number of threads had been started as various friends and family didn't know who was doing what, and so the information was confusing and spread out. It was then suggested that someone put together a cogent post and start a new thread which would contain all of the information in one place. This is the result.
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LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
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Dean, I'm glad you returned safely from your last trip and that despite the weather, you had the sense you were doing the right thing.
I hope your dose of clarity guides you on this next trip and that in any event you stay safe. Take care and thanks for doing this.
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PAUL SOUZA
Trad climber
Central Valley, CA
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Be safe Dean!
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Jimr
climber
Redondo Beach, CA
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In that order :-)
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LilaBiene
Trad climber
Technically...the spawning grounds of Yosemite
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Thoughts and prayers are with you!
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Dave Faus
climber
Mammoth
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Oct 10, 2015 - 09:04pm PT
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Good luck searching out there Dean. My name is Dave and I met you today (Saturday) below Ritter/banner and you mentioned your search for Matthew. I'm looking forward to hearing how your search on Banner went.
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Jimr
climber
Redondo Beach, CA
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Oct 12, 2015 - 07:51pm PT
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I'm going to throw out a possibility that has been gnawing at me since a week before I last went out to search with Maverick and crew last month. It falls right in line with Dean's epiphany that his main goal was mountain climbing, not ice climbing, but ice crossings needed to be geared for.
Has anyone check the register on Kehrlein Minaret? Although the gut feelings of several is that he is somewhere in the Ritter/Banner area, it doesn't mean he is, in fact, there. A bang-up day could be had going up the South Notch, climbing Kehrlein, traversing over to Starr, then back to the Starr/Kehrlein chute and down toward the tarn above Deadhorse lk, then over the saddle between Kehrlein and Pridham, bag Pridham if time permits, then across over to Cecile and back down to Agnew Meadow. Since he bagged both Rielgelhuth and Clyde, this trifecta would have covered a good portion of the southern Minarets and well withing his comfort zone (I think) considering the gear he brought with him and the fact that he was solo. I think most of this is in the class 3 range with a bit of class 4 going up Kehrlein. This traverse would also put the more difficult stuff earlier with an easy peasy peak at the finish (Pridham) and no big deal if time did not permit. If he signed the register on the 17th , would that be considered actual, actionable evidence? I think so.
If he signed the register on that day, then perhaps he ran into trouble moving South down to the crest heading to Starr. If he didn't sign the register, there's a possibility he ran into a mishap at the summit before he could sign it, but now there is no evidence to be found in the register. I strongly believe that if this was his goal for the day, then there is evidence on the S/E side of Kehrlein. Either he fell down the nasty S/E slope of K (if so, pray he signed the register because that is some nasty looking stuff) or he fell from the ridge separating K & S. Either way, if this scenario is true then there is a high probability of evidence somewhere in the bowl/ridge/ledges between Starr & Kehrlein.
He said he was going to the Minarets. While there are valid arguments to take that both literally and generally, both are equally valid and cannot be ignored. If someone was so inclined, and it has not been done (I haven't seen any reports), I really think the register at Kehrlein should be checked.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Oct 12, 2015 - 10:18pm PT
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here is a TR a few weeks after he disappeared for Pridham Minaret, and this party was the first to sign in, in 2013.
http://highwire.org/~galic/hiking/minarets/pridham/
here is a 2015 climb of kehrlein:
http://www.ianmceleney.com/2015/09/the-minaret-traverse.html
"Now a bunch of talus walking led to Starr Minaret. We cached the climbing gear somewhere on the way and climbed Starr as the light faded. Our route to the summit was not the easiest way up and the descent even less so, but eventually we found our way back to the gear and hiked up Kehrlein Minaret. I had been on Kehrlein before, on a previous attempt traveling the other direction with my friend Dale Apgar. It's east ridge is the most complicated terrain feature connecting two minarets that we would travel on. I felt confident that we wouldn't get lost and would take a generally efficient route. Little did I know that our time getting from Kehrlein to Pridham Minaret would be well over 4 times the average time it took us to get between all the other summits. Though morale was still high and we were both still functioning well mentally the 17 summits before this one were making themselves felt. We moved more slowly in the dark, and made five rappels as we ground our way east. I don't know if I speak for Scott on this but I hope to never climb Kehrlein Minaret again. "
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Jimr
climber
Redondo Beach, CA
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Oct 13, 2015 - 09:13am PT
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The first post and Bob Burd's 2006 TR is what got me thinking about a trifecta. Regarding the second post, I e-mailed Ian to find out if he has a picture of the Kehrlein peak register with interest in Matthew's possible signature. Yes, the east ridge he speaks of Roper rates class 5+ with a few repels. From the South Notch, a fun class 3 - 4.
In no way do I want to imply that Ritter/Banner should be scrapped. It is just as valid as any other logical possibility.
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Jimr
climber
Redondo Beach, CA
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Oct 13, 2015 - 09:54am PT
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Here's Ian's reply
Jim,
I don't have any photos of summit registers. Scott and I only looked at them occasionally and didn't sign in. We definitely didn't stop for the one on Kehrlein. The first time I was on Kehrlein, a few weeks earlier and with a different partner, we found the register really hard to open. It's made of PVC pipe and the cap is hard to remove. I didn't take any photos of it on that first visit, but I just sent a message to my partner on that day to find out if he did. I'll let you know what he says.
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JB Jr
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Oct 13, 2015 - 12:02pm PT
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Hi Dean,
We met this Saturday after my friend Ben & my's summit of Mt. Ritter. Will continue to check in here and send all the positive vibes your way. Cheers!
Jay
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Jimr
climber
Redondo Beach, CA
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Oct 13, 2015 - 10:30pm PT
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Ian's partner did not take any photos of the register either.
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Dave Faus
climber
Mammoth
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Oct 14, 2015 - 02:22pm PT
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Sounds good Dean. What's the best way to get in touch with you?
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Jimr
climber
Redondo Beach, CA
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Oct 14, 2015 - 05:42pm PT
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Come on up, Jimr.....you and I can bomb it on out there and check that thing.
Wish I could Dean, but I'm done for the season and Mammoth may be done for the season as well, except for the locals who could blast in and out from their back door given a window of opportunity. I guess the next couple of weeks will tell.
Fortunately, even if we get a heavy snow season, the register could still be checked much earlier than would be feasible for an area search.
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LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 14, 2015 - 11:06pm PT
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In September, Maverick and his group searched fall zones beneath Kehrlein Minaret, in the direction of Deadhorse Lake, but I don't think they climbed Kehrlein and checked the summit register. They also searched in some other places -- here's an excerpt from Maverick's post earlier in this thread:
We spent hours searching the fall zones, and the base of the glaciers, on the Southeast Glacier, including the Clyde variation, and the Ritter-Banner Saddle routes, each on separate days, to allow a good combing of the areas, but to be honest, a large group could spend weeks in just one of these areas, and still easily miss something.
We also checked the route between Ediza-Minaret Lakes, a couple of times, since Matt mentioned it being one of his objectives while in Mammoth.
Also climbed up beyond Deadhorse Lake to the check the falls zones right underneath Kehrlein Minaret, rough country.
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Jimr
climber
Redondo Beach, CA
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Oct 15, 2015 - 09:29am PT
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I'm part of that group. Maverick checked out the area solo and confirmed it is rough country, but it has not been searched by any means. He and I did a search of the South Notch last year, but stopped short of the top due to time.
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maverick01
climber
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Oct 15, 2015 - 01:29pm PT
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There is a chute leading to a ravine between the main mass of Kehrlein's
southern side, and an outer seperate complex, an area if someone fell
in-between would never be seen, unless someone climbed into it with the
intention to search, which I could not do because of a thunderstorm moving
in at the time. The ledge system west of this concealed ravine, on the
southern face of Kehrlein, would also be an area of interest, but would
require climbing and rappelling gear to reach and conduct a thorough search.
Located someone, who is willing to attending next years search, and is an
expert drone pilot, he does aerial searches for SAR, and has a drone
that can fly at these altitude, this will hopefully eliminate the need for
anyone having to search those class 5 ledges, and put themselves in danger.
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LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 15, 2015 - 04:06pm PT
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Jim, thanks for clarifying and more important for searching. I thought your name looked familiar. (I think I read the reports on HST about last year's search that mentioned "Jimerick"... :-)
Maverick, that's interesting about the hidden gully next to Kehrlein. It’s great that you’ve found a drone pilot willing to help check out that ledge system.
I'm glad that (in addition to other places such as Ritter and Banner) you and your group have been considering and searching the area above Deadhorse Lake and below Kehrlein & Starr. I've been wondering about that area for a while -- few people go there and little searching has been done…
Regarding the scenario that Jim posted on Oct 12th
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=2195321&msg=2701418#msg2701418
A bang-up day could be had going up the South Notch, climbing Kehrlein, traversing over to Starr, then back to the Starr/Kehrlein chute and down toward the tarn above Deadhorse lk, then over the saddle between Kehrlein and Pridham, bag Pridham if time permits, then across over to Cecile and back down to Agnew Meadow. Since he bagged both Rielgelhuth and Clyde, this trifecta would have covered a good portion of the southern Minarets and well withing his comfort zone (I think) considering the gear he brought with him and the fact that he was solo. I think most of this is in the class 3 range with a bit of class 4 going up Kehrlein. This traverse would also put the more difficult stuff earlier with an easy peasy peak at the finish (Pridham) and no big deal if time did not permit.
I’ve long wondered about a similar possible scenario involving Kehrlein and Starr, though it didn’t occur to me that Matt might have intended Pridham as well. I imagined him intending to climb Kehrlein and Starr and then to make a beeline down the Starr/Kehrlein chute, down to Deadhorse Lake, and back along the Minaret Lake Trail to catch the shuttle near Devil’s Postpile. I wondered whether Matt might have fallen from one of those Minarets or whether he might have run into trouble descending the Starr/Kehrlein chute.
In Jim’s scenario, Matt might have run into trouble on Kehrlein itself, or on the traverse over to Starr.
I agree with Jim that it would be great to know if Matt signed the register on Kehrlein (assuming he could get it open). There probably isn't a register on Starr, though there’s some confusion about that – see my round-up of info on various registers in the Minarets:
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=2195321&msg=2452330#msg2452330
BTW, as you probably are aware, when searching last year for the remains of his son, Matt’s father climbed Pridham and left a note in the summit register. He also climbed up to the little tarn above Deadhorse Lake but wasn’t able to explore higher up in the bowl.
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maverick01
climber
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Oct 15, 2015 - 05:19pm PT
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Jim, thanks for clarifying and more important for searching. I thought your name looked familiar. (I think I read the reports on HST about last year's search that mentioned "Jimerick"... :-)
Yeah, that was Lisa's play on the names. :)
There is a TR in the works for this recent search, hopefully it will be posted in a week or two on HST.
In the mean time, here are some articles in the Mammoth Times about our search, which hopefully will keep this in the public's eye. There is also an on-going series in the Mammoth Times by Jennifer Crittenden, about Matthew and Starr, comparing the two's stories, and searches for them (including Dean's).
http://www.highsierratopix.com/community/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=13568
I’ve long wondered about a similar possible scenario involving Kehrlein and Starr, though it didn’t occur to me that Matt might have intended Pridham as well. I imagined him intending to climb Kehrlein and Starr and then to make a beeline down the Starr/Kehrlein chute, down to Deadhorse Lake, and back along the Minaret Lake Trail to catch the shuttle near Devil’s Postpile. I wondered whether Matt might have fallen from one of those Minarets or whether he might have run into trouble descending the Starr/Kehrlein chute.
Seeing a photo recently of the glacier/snow conditions on South Notch (2013), it seems there was enough on it, to have made it an area of interest for Matthew, especially since he took an ice axe and crampons, and knowing his enjoyment of climbing ice. He would have been familiar with the conditions of this area from his earlier climb of Clyde Minaret.
BTW, as you probably are aware, when searching last year for the remains of his son, Matt’s father climbed Pridham and left a note in the summit register. He also climbed up to the little tarn above Deadhorse Lake but wasn’t able to explore higher up in the bowl.
Pridham was taken off the list because of what you wrote above, and because the route from Pridham to Kehrlein involves some class 5 sections, which includes repelling, which Matthew did not take the gear to do.
Have mentioned to Matt's sister in our conversations, that initially the Deadhorse area was of interest to me, call it intuition, but the lack of snow/ice, and that his name was not in either the Ritter or Banner registers, had drawn my attention away from this area, but it now has my undivided attention.
There are a lot of things going on behind the scenes, our 6 month investigation has uncovered evidence that was over-looked because of "lack of resources", a familiar reason given by PD's all around the US. We hope that we will be able to make some positive changes by working with the Mayor, and the MLPD.
Most importantly, in no way has the search for Matthew concluded, or will he be forgotten, Matthew's spirit continues to shine, his love for these mountains is a beacon for all others, who also love the Sierra, and wish to bring closure for his family.
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Jimr
climber
Redondo Beach, CA
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Oct 15, 2015 - 06:43pm PT
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I read Matthew's father's last trail post. It broke my heart. Any idea of a Pridham to Kehrlein or vice versa is out of the question. Roper clearly describes this, including two repels, BUT, my research has indicated that the saddle between the two is fairly straight forward class 2 that has been used by a few to easily traverse the watersheds. That's why I think the trifecta idea becomes so appealing.
I've also played around with the idea as to why he may have chosen this over Ritter/Banner even though both areas have similar potential for a bang up day. He was a high school math teacher. The discipline deals with logical and absolute ideas. Perhaps, and this is a stretch I admit, a logical, absolute and meticulous mind, when given 6 of one and half a dozen of the other, may just desire to fill-in the section. I know, kind of out there, but.....maybe.
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kief
Trad climber
east side
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Oct 15, 2015 - 08:12pm PT
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Located someone, who is willing to attending next years search, and is an
expert drone pilot, he does aerial searches for SAR, and has a drone
that can fly at these altitude, this will hopefully eliminate the need for
anyone having to search those class 5 ledges, and put themselves in danger.
Drones are mechanized equipment and are prohibited in designated wilderness areas.
Forest Service Manual, 5713.7
I can't think of any reason an exception would be made in this case.
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 15, 2015 - 08:23pm PT
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Aerial searches for SAR are for public service should be exempt with permission and coordination from/with the local authorities.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Shetville , North of Los Angeles
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Oct 15, 2015 - 09:04pm PT
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There is no such thing as the Forest Service..They are a figma of our gross materilaistic subconsciousness..Puppets of Honda motors and other carbon producing corporations..The real Forest Service employees are entombed in small cubicles attending endless meetings while speaking in tongues...Release the drones...!
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 15, 2015 - 09:11pm PT
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Are you sure?
You been reading too much bullsh!t from the stooopid duck .....
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Jimr
climber
Redondo Beach, CA
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Oct 17, 2015 - 12:28pm PT
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Looking at maps this morning and realized my scenario makes more sense launched from Devil's Postpile/Minaret Lk. as LAhiker noted. Doesn't change anything as far as the potential search area goes. in DPP and out AM would have added the cross country he mentioned wanting to do as well.
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Oct 17, 2015 - 12:47pm PT
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Are you sure?
You been reading too much bullsh!t from the stooopid duck .....
again with the gold.
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DataJunkie
climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Oct 25, 2015 - 02:16pm PT
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It has gotten very cold very quickly this season. After the most recent rainstorm it has remained cold, but still somewhat nice for hiking. The road is closed for the season after the 31st though.
I hiked up to Shadow Lake the other day, it was about 35 out when I started. The majority of signs had posters on them, starting at Agnew Meadows to the junction with JMT (I didn't go beyond that). Even the bridge over the San Joaquin Middle Fork right before to climb to Shadow.
I spent a lot of time down at Reds Meadow and Devils Postpile this summer. There were very few posters in this area, or they were removed. I remember after Steve Fosset's remains were found near Minaret Mine, some campers came forward that said they saw his plane flying in the area. Hopefully there are posters further up the trail. The report from the campers seems to be an example of something important being ignored by the witness as unimportant.
I was hoping to get to Minaret Lake this summer, but with the days getting so short it isn't practical.
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Alpineholydog
Trad climber
Spring Tx
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I know the season of searching is passed. An idea hit me that I'm sure that occurred to others here but I have not seen in this forum or on the Find Matthew Greene site. Have the logs from the summits of all the likely mountains Matthew would have climbed been pulled and the names recorded. One might try to track down those that left their non trail names on the registers. Someone is out there that saw Matthew on the 17th of July. Perhaps showing them the info on Matthew might jog their memory. I cannot remember everyone on my hikes and I know that to put it together is intricate work. Special circumstances stand out however. Are the summit registers gathered somewhere in California? Since it's been a few years one could hope that they might be in a central location. If some are still out there a coordinated effort within the climbing community to photograph the registers in that time frame might be possible in the future. Just a thought...
Anything to narrow down the possibilities.
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Alpineholydog
Trad climber
Spring Tx
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Nov 26, 2015 - 07:01pm PT
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Looks like Sierra club stores summit logs at the Bancroft Library in Berkley. Questions for those in the know...
1. Are all the minarets/Ritter/Banner covered by the Sierra club and gathered and stored.
2. Has anyone reviewed the stored summit loges to get the names of those who climbed on July 17th of that year?
3. If the logs are on the mountains still what about sponsoring a climbing event to photograph the logs for the dates that Matthew went missing. Again the goal would be to contact those climbers to see if anyone saw Matthew in an area to LIMIT the search area.
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ß Î Ø T Ç H
Boulder climber
ne'er–do–well
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Nov 26, 2015 - 11:26pm PT
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^^ In this day and age it seems pretty silly to still be recording anything that matters so much with pencils and paper.
It should all be done online, and just remove the (eyesore) registers from the summits altogether.
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LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
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Nov 27, 2015 - 08:11am PT
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Alpineholydog said:
Have the logs from the summits of all the likely mountains Matthew would have climbed been pulled and the names recorded. One might try to track down those that left their non trail names on the registers. Someone is out there that saw Matthew on the 17th of July. Perhaps showing them the info on Matthew might jog their memory.
Good point. As far as I know, some of this has been done, but more is possible.
Banner and Ritter: Registers were checked after it was realized that Matt was missing. He hadn't signed either, but hear the relevant pages were photographed and attempts were made to contact people who did. I also hear that SAR tried to contact people with overnight permits for the area. It's possible that now that we have the unfortunate luxury of time, a bit more sleuthing into names that might have been hard to track down might turn up someone who might have seen Matt. Others such as Maverick, Cragman, or members of Matt's family may know more about this. I'm not sure who has the photos of those pages but could ask around.
Minarets: some registers have been checked and others not. In July 2014, I collected info on which registers in the Minarets had been checked and posted an appeal for photos of pages of Minarets summit registers from around when Matt disappeared, in an effort to find more people who might have seen him or who might have noticed some other evidence:
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=2195321&msg=2452330#msg2452330
The appeal, initially posted in this thread, was later posted separately on Supertopo, Summitpost, and Mountain Project. Harry Langenbacher, who maintains the Sierra Nevada Summit Registers page for the Sierra Club, posted an appeal on that page and renewed it this fall.
Unfortunately, no one has replied to my request for pictures of register pages in the Minarets; don't know whether anyone contacted Harry Langenbacher. I can certainly repost the appeal (with any updates) this spring.
As can be seen from the list linked to, not all Minarets have registers. Some of them have been checked for Matt's signature, but I don't think people have yet photographed register pages to find someone who might have seen Matt.
Two caveats: some who might have been climbing the Minarets that day might already have been contacted when the overnight permits were pulled. Also, some Minarets get very little traffic. I think Clyde gets the most -- not sure whether it's log from that summer would still be there but the others probably would be.
Looks like Sierra club stores summit logs at the Bancroft Library in Berkley. Questions for those in the know...
1. Are all the minarets/Ritter/Banner covered by the Sierra club and gathered and stored.
2. Has anyone reviewed the stored summit loges to get the names of those who climbed on July 17th of that year?
As noted above, I think the Banner & Ritter logs have already been photographed and most of the Minaret logs are probably still in the mountains, but it does make sense to double-check the library before heading up a peak for info that may no longer be there!
3. If the logs are on the mountains still what about sponsoring a climbing event to photograph the logs for the dates that Matthew went missing. Again the goal would be to contact those climbers to see if anyone saw Matthew in an area to LIMIT the search area.
Makes sense for any logs on the mountains that haven't already been checked. I'd also recommend photographing pages just before and for a couple of weeks after July 17, 2013, in case anyone spoke with Matt before that day, was still there then, or noticed something amiss in the next couple of weeks.
One could also prioritize certain Minarets, such as Kehrlein (Maverick's group and Cragman have been wondering whether Matt might have climbed it) and Clyde (because it gets more climbers, though that might mean that the relevant log is no longer on the mountain).
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Nov 27, 2015 - 10:36am PT
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In this day and age it seems pretty silly to still be recording anything that matters so much with pencils and paper.
It should all be done online, and just remove the (eyesore) registers from the summits altogether.
I don't think the summit registers I get to are eyesores in the least. Recording your summits on line is stupid.
Mathew is at home in the Mountains now. If this happened to me, I would wish to never have my body found and removed.
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kief
Trad climber
east side
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Nov 27, 2015 - 12:30pm PT
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Going into the third year of this saga I have utmost respect for Dean and his efforts but the "Citizen Search for Matthew Greene" as chronicled over on High Sierra Topix sounds like an accident waiting to happen:
"There wasn’t time enough remaining in the day to do any searching, so today was about getting settled in and acclimatizing. I took the opportunity to ask for another lesson in negotiating Class 3 rock. The boys took me up to a rockface over a nice pool they had discovered the year prior. There I practiced proper handholds and descents facing the rock."
Another one of the (five) "searchers" on that outing was the object of a SAR and heli-extraction himself a couple of years ago in Tehipite Valley after a backpacking partner cancelled out and he decided to make the trip anyway with his 14 year old son. The kid freaked out on the steep switchbacks descending from Hay Meadow and after screeing down to the Middle Fork of the Kings they decided to fish and lounge around for several days waiting to be reported overdue rather than repeat the trauma.
It's one thing for experienced people with demonstrated good judgment to be out in sketchy terrain like the Minarets trying to help bring closure to Matt's family. Other folks maybe need reminding that good intentions are the prime paving material on the road to the hot place.
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Alpineholydog
Trad climber
Spring Tx
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Nov 28, 2015 - 09:57am PT
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Perhaps I misspoke in my earlier post.
Knowing that all the potential peaks are climbed each year it might be possible to have a coordinated effort though the climbing shops in the area to pool the data from the peaks in question. No "Event" is necessary.
I agree that climbing in the area is really serious business and not at all for the new climber. Especially if the snowpack ends up high this year.
It just seems that if the area to search could be narrowed down to a particular trail then finding Matthew would be more possible.
It has occurred to me that there are likely lots of climbers out there that did not have backcountry permits for those dates. Matthew did not as far as I know.
Personally I would like to remain where I was if I was in Matthew's place but acknowledge that it is not a decision for me to make. If finding him brings his family solace then may the search by those interested proceed and hopefully bring them closure.
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LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
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Nov 28, 2015 - 10:45am PT
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Alpineholydog,
That makes sense. The point of my detailed post and link was that some of the info, including photos of some of the summit registers, may already be available without any further climbing. And as you note, some registers may be at Bancroft Library, though I doubt that any recent registers from the Minarets besides maybe Clyde would be there.
For the remaining summit registers, it would be great if some person or climbing shop or whatever encouraged people who were climbing the Minarets anyway to take photos of the relevant pages. So far my appeals have not had that effect.
Because some of the Minarets are rarely climbed, they may be less fruitful sources of people who might have seen Matt.
I certainly wasn't suggesting that non-climbers attempt any Minarets! I mentioned Kehrlein because it looks like no one has checked its register to see whether Matt might have climbed it that day. When around a month ago Jimr of Maverick's group floated the theory that Matt might have intended to climb Kehrlein and Starr, Dean said he'd go check the Kehrlein register if he could. But then the snows came in.
I completely agree that the main use of the registers at this point is as a source of names of people who might have seen Matt or who might have other relevant info. For that reason I think we need to encourage climbers to photograph pages for some time around July 17th, 2013 as well as for that day.
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Alpineholydog
Trad climber
Spring Tx
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Nov 28, 2015 - 11:34am PT
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Lahiker,
We are on same page. While not as exciting as searching the back country some of this busy work might bear fruit for next year. Being in Texas I probably won't be of much help. Based on Matt's climbing history it would be possible to make a list of Summits he would have pursued and then based on those mountains attempt to find the registers and names of climbers in the area. If we could narrow the search for Matt to Ritter/Banner such as Cragman's intuition has led him, then a more thorough search of that area might be possible.
It underlines how incredible it was for Norman Clyde to find Pete Starr on Michaels Minaret in 1933. Now much harder for us with the passage of time.
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DataJunkie
climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Dec 14, 2015 - 02:04am PT
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Just a note... something just occurred to me.
I've hiked the Agnew->Shadow trail that Matthew may have taken that day (but not the Minaret Lake trail, which is another possibility). I did this very late in the season, yet I still came across about 10 people on the trail. I was the only one that was by myself, so even had I not stopped to talk to some people along the way, I think I would have stood out.
I find it strange that nobody came forward to say that they saw him on the trail that day. I feel like hikers are pretty cognizant when in the wilderness (touristy trails like Rainbow Falls are another story... nobody says hi or anything). I suppose perhaps too much time had passed maybe, but I'd imagine I'd at least remember seeing a solo hiker and their gender at the least.
The most likely outcome is that he is up in the mountains, but part of me still thinks never made it to the trail.
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ß Î Ø T Ç H
Boulder climber
ne'er–do–well
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May 30, 2016 - 09:57pm PT
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Pea-dub
Ice climber
sun diego
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Jul 16, 2016 - 10:50pm PT
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God's speed Dean
Stay off the sketchy stuff if you
are buy your self. Long time to be missing.
Don't really know what else to say.
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Batrock
Trad climber
Burbank
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Jul 17, 2016 - 03:55am PT
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I recently saw picture in a post either here or on Mountain Project of a pair of mountaineering boots someone found stashed and were covered in snow. They seemed to be similar to the ones pictured in the missing person poster. About a week after seeing the picture I saw the missing person poster with the boots on it and immediately thought of the picture in the thread of the stashed boots. I thought the thread or TR was on about a trip to the Palisades or Mount Humphrys but I have been unable to find that picture since then. I'll keep looking.
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Jimr
climber
Redondo Beach, CA
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Jul 22, 2016 - 07:26pm PT
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Hi Cragman,
Any more thought about checking out Kehrlen summit register?
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Jul 22, 2016 - 07:55pm PT
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Wondering what happened is such a frustrating experience.
Kudos to Cragman for his continuing efforts and the relationship he developed with Matt's family...
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Jimr
climber
Redondo Beach, CA
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Jul 22, 2016 - 09:57pm PT
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We're going in and base camping at Deadhorse Lk. for a week and searching that whole area in Sept. I was hoping if he did bag Kehrlen and signed the register on the day he disappeared, then that would be actual, actionable evidence to start a Search and Recovery effort on an official basis.
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grover
climber
Castlegar BC
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Jul 23, 2016 - 06:51pm PT
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Anyone out there using drones for these type of searches?
Just askin.
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grover
climber
Castlegar BC
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Jul 23, 2016 - 07:45pm PT
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Point taken Dean, thanks.
What about for initial searches? Couldn't a drone expedite some searches?
Anyone out there using em?
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 23, 2016 - 08:24pm PT
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Drones will likely become more and more useful as technology gets even better.
The technology is already there and the drones are really good.
Nobody can afford the good ones.
The one good one I wanted to get for here starts at $100,000 ......
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Jul 23, 2016 - 08:46pm PT
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Damn. That's good money if you can get it.
No competitors read this page, so here's my prototype.
Much cheaper and way more effective than [can I say it?] stoopid mechancal versions.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Shetville , North of Los Angeles
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Jul 23, 2016 - 09:34pm PT
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Cragman...Rin Tin Tin...? The lead child actor from the series Rin Tin Tin was working at Vons for a while...
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Jimr
climber
Redondo Beach, CA
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Jul 25, 2016 - 03:00pm PT
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Cragman,
I often have an appropriate tune in my head that pushes me forward.
"Keep pushin' on"
"Been through the desert on a horse with no name" (Mexican border to Warner Springs)
What earks me is when I end up singing a Michael Jackson tune and can't get rid of it. Makes the day seem to never end.
Often, I'll run a chord progression through my head and visualize playing it on the guitar.
It's interesting that as long as the time signature is close to my pace, I can speed it up or slow it down to "fit".
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Alpineholydog
Trad climber
Spring Tx
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Jul 25, 2016 - 03:02pm PT
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What are the summits in the area that have registers that Matthew would have climbed?
Have all the registers been checked for the dates he was missing?
If not have those that signed the registers on those dates been contacted to see if they remember Matthew? Maybe an effort worth organizing through a local climbing shop to photograph the registers?
I know these are old and records certainly incomplete but leads if there possibly worth tracking down.
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Batrock
Trad climber
Burbank
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Jul 25, 2016 - 04:17pm PT
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Dean,
I spent a few hours this morning looking for that picture of the stashed boots covered in snow but could not locate it. I thought for sure it was from a TR on ST but it could have been a TR on someones blog also. I want to say it was from a write up on a climb of Humphrys or Emerson.
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Jul 25, 2016 - 04:20pm PT
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Mt. Whitney hiker found dead.
John Lee, 68. More later.
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johntp
Trad climber
socal
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Jul 25, 2016 - 04:35pm PT
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^
John Lee left his pack north of the mountaineers route and his body was found on the SW side of Whitney. Very curious. Seems like he got disoriented.
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johntp
Trad climber
socal
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Jul 25, 2016 - 06:07pm PT
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Can't trust the news too much. At least he was found.
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Psilocyborg
climber
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Jul 25, 2016 - 07:06pm PT
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hmmmm. I am wondering if falcons can be trained to locate human remains...
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Jul 25, 2016 - 07:08pm PT
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^Good thought dude. They can.
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couchmaster
climber
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Jul 25, 2016 - 08:58pm PT
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I had a dog like Dean once. Never gave up once it committed. Best. Damned. Dog. Ever. Bless you Dean and may you yet find the missing puzzle piece and also most importantly to you the peace for Matthews family which they are no doubt still searching for. What a gift that would be to the family.
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couchmaster
climber
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Jul 28, 2016 - 05:52am PT
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May success and happiness follow you this weekend and forever sir. It's a pleasure to have you around to remind folks about what is truly important, in between a political or religious disagreement or 2 of course:-)
I'm not a praying man, but I will call out in the quiet tonight and meditate deeply on this "finding Matthew" issue and give it a try. It can't hurt.
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couchmaster
climber
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Jul 29, 2016 - 10:53am PT
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Thanks Ekat. I took a shot at it last night. My focus drifted and sadly eventually wound up with a mostly brown vision of masses of WW1 soldiers buried under dirt. Missing and forgotten. Couldn't shake out of that view either, it was very difficult. Will try again tonight, hopefully better able to stay praying to the good Lord about Matthew and not whatever the heck just happened.
If everyone else could stop for a few moments and do the same it would be appreciated.
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Jimr
climber
Redondo Beach, CA
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Jul 29, 2016 - 11:58am PT
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Meditation need not be this hour long silent mind thing that many think it should be. Most find their head running around for 55 of those minutes anyway. I do about 20 very short meditations every day, less than a minute each time. When the head starts going, I'm done. Sometimes and epiphany comes to me, most times, it just gives me several moments to center in "now". It is especially calming during stressful moments.
Whenever you think of Matthew and/or those who are out there looking and want to send out some good vibes, just stop for a moment, close your eyes and listen until the mind starts talking again, then go about your business.
It does not matter whether it works "out there" or not. If so, great. If not, but it brings you moments of peace and presence in now, then you win either way. Put it out and have no thought of results.
give or take a quart
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LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
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Jul 29, 2016 - 11:28pm PT
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Cragman, thanks for continuing to search. I hope your next outing is safe and fruitful.
Jimr, I'm glad you're planning to go out there too later this year!
Alpineholydog, I agree that it would be good to double-check which registers have been checked, not just for Matt's name but also for people who might have seen him or noticed something. While this was done for the Banner and Ritter registers, it hasn't been done for all the Minarets that have registers. I think most of the info in my earlier post is still valid... Maybe we can figure out a way to encourage people to do this...
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=2195321&msg=2452330#msg2452330
Batrock, have you had any more thoughts on where you might have seen the picture of mountaineering boots found stashed in the snow?
The only thing I found similar to that was a snow boot (containing a foot) and other human remains that were found earlier this summer at Eldora Mountain Resort in Colorado. But that was far away, and involved a different type of boot.
http://denver.cbslocal.com/2016/06/08/boot-found-with-human-remains-at-eldora-stumps-investigators/
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crankster
Trad climber
No. Tahoe
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Excellent article and graphics. It's hard to argue the likely scenario that he went out on one last climb and had a tragic accident.
Someday, I trust, a climber descending into a notch, climbing a chimney, or similar, will chance upon a clue and the mystery of Matt's disappearance will come to an end. I hope it's soon, for the sake of his family and friends.
Kudos to cragman for his efforts.
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ß Î Ø T Ç H
Boulder climber
ne'er–do–well
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The article says on his trip to Mammoth, he had continued up from Emerald Lake (to Sky Meadows on N side of Mammoth Crest).
Then it says that later on he returned to Hike Mammoth Crest (maybe Deer Lakes trail) which are both very close to Blue Crag Coulior, before he went missing. I saw on TV that the coulior was skied by a party this last winter, but any potential evidence covered by alot of snow at that time.
(Winter 2013 conditions)
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phylp
Trad climber
Upland, CA
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Thanks for the link to the article. It was an excellent summary.
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crankster
Trad climber
No. Tahoe
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Aug 20, 2016 - 10:16pm PT
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Such a great picture of Matthew. So alive and full of promise.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Outside the Asylum
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Thanks, Dean. Good luck, and safe travels!
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LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
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Thanks for searching, Dean! Please stay safe and take good care of yourself.
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Jimr
climber
Redondo Beach, CA
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Oct 20, 2016 - 04:21pm PT
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In early September, 4 of us convened at Deadhorse lake with the intent of searching the bowl between Starr and Kehrlein. Here are some excerpts of my original report:
I’ve spent a lot of time staring at a blank screen, looking for the words, but they just don’t come. I don’t know why I have so much emotion tied up with Matthew. People go missing in the Sierra quite often, yet I don’t find myself drawn to them. So, while my emotions flip flop around like a fish out of water, at least, there are words on a page.
I had never hiked the Minarets before our Sept. 2014 search. I’d seen the peaks many times while skiing Mammoth many years ago, but never stepped foot there. I have now taken many steps and seen many beautiful scenes of these lofty and sublime peaks. Our hike to Deadhorse Lake was no exception. For some reason, I had the vision of it being a rather mundane area. I have no idea why I envisioned that. In 35 years, I’ve never met a Sierra lake I didn’t like.
.........
The next morning, we fueled up and headed up the terminal moraine to the outlet of the upper tarn that filled the bottom of the cirque we were to search. We topped out at the outlet and were pleasantly greeted by Kehrlein and Starr Minaret surrounding a small bowl of talus and tarn. Sounds almost like an Irish salad. We all sat down, snacked and began glassing the place. You could almost search the whole cirque on your butt, but, but,,but….the eyes grew weary and the legs wanted to move. David started searching the far side immediately. After a bit of time behind binoculars, the rest of us were getting antsy to physically search. You can go cross eyed behind glass for too long.
We basically carpet bombed the bowl, leaving no stone unturned except for the loose, steep stuff just below Starr. The rest of the bowl was surprisingly stable. We were able to get right up to the face of Kehrlein, then pattern search our way down to the tarn. We checked the base of the three chutes that were in our search area as well.
We finally reconvened and concluded that we hit the place so hard that there really wasn’t any reason to come back up the next day just to retread the area, so we made alternate plans. The next morning, David hiked on toward Ediza as he was geared for several more days in the backcountry. Oleander and ghost had already been in a week, so the three of us decided to hike out and play tourist in Bishop. That turned out to be a wise decision. The next afternoon, the Ritter range was hammered with rain and snow. David saw the weather eroding and hauled out as well. We decided to cross country it down stream to the main trail, then beat feet it from there. We got to Bishop with plenty of daylight left, so we went to a new brewery there that just happened to serve wonderful meals as well. For me, the trip was short on time in the wilderness, but long on scenery and friendship.
And then, back to the emotion. I feel great success that we covered the search area with a fine toothed comb. I’m disappointed and sad that we found no evidence, but we are looking for the proverbial needle in the haystack. If Matthew is there, he is near the peaks somewhere. There are so many places near the top to get wedged, but nearly nothing to stop a fall along the walls. They are sheer and slick with no visible places to get caught up. I have my doubts that even a seasoned climber would dare search the high places on Kehrlein. Too dangerous to tool around up there. The register has never been checked. I only hope that eventually, it is checked for an entry made by Matt Greene.
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phylp
Trad climber
Upland, CA
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Oct 20, 2016 - 05:02pm PT
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Thank you for the report.
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ß Î Ø T Ç H
Boulder climber
ne'er–do–well
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Dec 14, 2016 - 11:20pm PT
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A bit too early to say, but looks like another light snow-fall Winter so far.
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Charlie B
Social climber
Santa Rosa, Ca
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Jul 20, 2017 - 02:52am PT
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I found something. The bishop pd and sar are aware. I just need my own closure. 707-490-2181. Please do not disrespect that I put my number here. This may or may not be related to this thread.
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Ezra Ellis
Trad climber
North wet, and Da souf
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Jul 20, 2017 - 09:41am PT
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Bump for closure,
Rest In Peace
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BigB
Trad climber
Red Rock
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Jul 20, 2017 - 10:12am PT
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Charlie,
Please update if it does end up being relevant...
Thanks B
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ß Î Ø T Ç H
Boulder climber
ne'er–do–well
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Jul 22, 2017 - 11:48pm PT
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... not to be morbid, but what was found?
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maverick01
climber
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Jan 10, 2019 - 02:35pm PT
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Hello Everyone,
We are making a 4th effort to locate some evidence in the Matthew Greene case. Our plans are to set-up basecamp at Deadhorse Lake in the Minarets, search dates are 9/4-9/8/19.
We hope some of you will consider joining are group to finally bring closure for the Greene Family, while spending time with some fellow Sierra loving people in one of the most beautiful parts of the Sierra.
Please contact me at: pagoston@prioryca.org
Thank you,
Maverick
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Jan 10, 2019 - 02:43pm PT
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whatever happened to Charlie B? was whatever he found relevant??
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Jan 10, 2019 - 07:04pm PT
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I cannot believe that this was in 2013
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G_Gnome
Trad climber
Cali
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Jan 11, 2019 - 09:38am PT
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^^^^ This would be my prefered way to go too. I love your sentiment - leave me be.
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FRUMY
Trad climber
Bishop,CA
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Jan 11, 2019 - 12:42pm PT
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+1 here
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jan 11, 2019 - 02:14pm PT
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+1 He belongs to the mountains now...
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 11, 2019 - 02:43pm PT
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so f*#king hope nobody find my body
It's NOT always all about YOU and what you want.
You live in a society and if you don't want things to go a certain way in that society than move to Siberia where no one lives period ....
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Jan 11, 2019 - 06:16pm PT
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Sorry Werner, I guess I am just one of the stoopid one's, but maybe you can help me out.
If I were to go up into the mountains and disappear, an accident or perhaps by intention, and things were in such a manner that no one finds me despite many highly qualified individuals best efforts over a period of years, what about leaving me alone would violate some social constructs?
Is it still about closure for the family? Maybe they should broaden their thinking. Instead of depending on an exact location, the finding of a body part or an identifiable piece of gear, maybe they should look up at those mountains in their glory. The closure they seek could come from seeing the beauty of the place and knowing that he is up there. Somewhere.
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Jan 11, 2019 - 06:23pm PT
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If it was my brother
I'd say
It's none of your fukkin business
It isn't
But it's still none of your
Fukkin business
TCB
Edit
Not aimed at you K
Speaking generally
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Jan 11, 2019 - 06:33pm PT
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It was a comment, an idea, not a criticism.
My opinion is that at some point this search for closure becomes an obsession, and the underlying intent is lost. If it were me up there I know my family would have found their peace with it a long time ago.
But if his family feels that they need a different solution, then you're right. It's none of my fukkin business. But is asking a question really trying to make it my business? Touchy world if it is.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Jan 11, 2019 - 07:25pm PT
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If I were to go up into the mountains and disappear, an accident or perhaps by intention, and things were in such a manner that no one finds me despite many highly qualified individuals best efforts over a period of years, what about leaving me alone would violate some social constructs?
I guess the scenario where someone wishes to not be found, but creates a circumstance that huge resources and people's time gets expended, that bothers me.
Write a note, with your desires, then go where no one would expect, and leave no clues.
But if you don't do that, and you simply disappear, then the default has to be to search for you, for a trivial but incapacitating injury that should not be fatal....and you are in so far, you cannot crawl out.
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Jan 11, 2019 - 08:09pm PT
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The closure they seek could come from seeing the beauty of the place and knowing that he is up there. Somewhere.
An admirable sentiment to be sure. If it works for you then" even better.
My somewhat cynical younger brother who died way too young wanted his ashes spread near the ocean at a beach we frequented. That was it. I satisfied the two of us.
But you never close out your family IMO. We're in it for the long haul.
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 11, 2019 - 08:25pm PT
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Ksolem
Most of the time the local authorities need some type of closure for their investigation.
A search is required as part of it.
Otherwise, it remains open case .....
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Aeriq
Sport climber
100-year Visitor
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Jan 11, 2019 - 08:29pm PT
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Interesting that they never revealed the identity of the body found in the cave? I went down the rabbit hole a little - anyone else?
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