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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Trad waits until someone claims it then trad slashes down upon thee with hidden topos and a pic of the climb. Then trad yells, "DO YOUR HOMEWORK BEFORE CLAIMING AN FA!" Trad returns to lurking, awaiting it's next victim.
I've been guilty of not recording quite a few first ascents, particularly first climbs in new areas, but my main motive was a noble combination of procrastination and laziness. That, and inspiration from Tom Patey's "The Art of Climbing Down Gracefully" essay (e.g., "What did you climb today?""Don't know. Haven't named it yet.")
It did amuse me, though, when someone claimed a first ascent of one of my climbs where I placed a bolt (I think there were no more than four of these in 46 years), and the topo shows the bolt in its proper place. Just how did they think it got there?
And DmG (to differentiate you from DMT), I've always considered the greatest satire to be that where its reader can never be absolutely sure if the author meant it seriously or not. Since I'm not sure about your recent posts, does that mean they're satirical?
In truth, as I stated earlier, I'm not interested in rules for how to climb, because we'll never agree. I'm interested in definitions, so our words have meanings.
John
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Topic Author's Reply - May 2, 2013 - 02:16pm PT
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OK, Western Climber, but please let's be careful that we don't drift into something which is perceived as controlling or attempting to control what other people do.
Just because we are largely enjoying stimulating, respectful, and productive discussion doesn't mean it will stay that way.
Earlier you were asking: "How can we preserve the trad legacy within the pantheon of the pursuit as time moves on?" ... I believe I answered this question to some degree.
Now I believe you are asking "How can we preserve the opportunity to climb trad out in the real world?"
What you are proposing may best be served in another thread, what do you think?
Not to dismiss it out of hand. I am open to it of course, but I'm concerned about expanding the goal of the thread beyond the practical dimensions of its "container".
Maybe it's a darn good idea I don't know. I have to say I'm just not active enough in the modern climbing community such that I can draw an accurate analysis on the relevance of such an effort. There is so much happening out there now and so many protagonists. The access fund is very busy for instance and to a degree I'm sure they're addressing what you are talking about, at least in the most general terms, not in terms of trad specifically probably, but I can't even say that with any authority. There is a robust trad community, however defined by tactics and I can't say necessarily that they feel threatened by other climbing styles or that they feel any need to preserve their opportunity through a process such as Higgins defined.
Perhaps I'm simply asking you to describe your goal a little more clearly?
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Topic Author's Reply - May 2, 2013 - 02:28pm PT
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I'm with you there Kevin, but I think at this point we have to include ground-up establishment of routes using sparse aid, such as hooks to establish trad face routes. Rich Goldstone did a pretty good job of supporting this conclusion some ways back.
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wstmrnclmr
Trad climber
Bolinas, CA
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Tar,
Sorry to not be clearer. I'm on board as to a simple definition of what traditional climbing means. It's just that the success of the thread ( in terms of civil discussion, because it remains to be seen as to whether a consensus can be reached on a narrow definition) has me hopeful of the climbing community being able to work down the road on not just style issues but other issues as well. You've proven yourself to be a capable mediator and have kept the thread on track. And if no definition is reached and when the thread dies away, it will have shown that a meaningful and respectful discoarse is possible.
So on to the business at hand. It seems like area specific definitions of what trad is to those specific areas still needs to br addressed. Warbler?
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Topic Author's Reply - May 2, 2013 - 02:55pm PT
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Warbler: The difference is sparse aid. I know it's subjective but there it is.
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Laramie
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Tarbuster,
in Essence hooking is aiding, simple topological understanding to see this. Essence is about realizing the minimum necessary elements to yield what you seek.
But for now, by trad preservation do mean the necessity of requiring that we use trad style on all first assents nowdays forward or merely the preservation of routes though to be done in trad style.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Topic Author's Reply - May 2, 2013 - 03:19pm PT
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I don't know Dingus, I think this preservation thing was something I was interpreting from Western Marin Climber.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Topic Author's Reply - May 2, 2013 - 03:22pm PT
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And by the Way, Dingus, I don't know if you caught this but just because you did some cleaning and aiding on many of your first ascents doesn't disqualify them as trad routes. (At least in my opinion and interpretation). This was something you asked way way back in regards to your Tower Routes I believe.
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wstmrnclmr
Trad climber
Bolinas, CA
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And what of bolts? How to define? By far my my greatest adventures have been onsiting run slab routes put up by Higgins, Warbler, et al. and FA's.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Topic Author's Reply - May 2, 2013 - 03:40pm PT
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I share that sentiment West Marin Climber.
Though not exclusively by any means, but the fixed constraints of run out & sparsely bolted face climbing does yield a distinctive experience; an experience unto itself if you will.
(I googled Bolinas California and see that this is in fact West Marin, so I'm cleaning up my act in addressing you!)
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Topic Author's Reply - May 2, 2013 - 03:46pm PT
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Hey Dingus McGee,
At the risk of a little thread drift: you mentioned that you had some experience climbing with Mark Powell. Some of us were thinking that he was fairly instrumental in elevating free climbing standards and maybe face climbing in particular.
Got any anecdotes in support of this for us?
(Yes I remember your post about him using pitons when others were using nuts and the potential fisticuffs incident, I'm not asking after that specifically)
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Topic Author's Reply - May 2, 2013 - 04:12pm PT
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Well done Russ!
Please leave that post up!
[Edit] Listen to Russ, people.
With this I have to say we truly have come full circle.
He echoes pretty much what I suggested in the OP.
So there's a nice pair of bookends for the entire discussion.
Sure there is more detail; I suggest we let it rest squarely between these two posts: the OP and Russ's audio rant.
Thanks everyone for your measured input: it really has been stimulating and such a blast!
Dingus McGee, maybe we'll talk about Mark Powell some other time. I would like that to happen.
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Evel
Trad climber
Nedsterdam CO
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And it's Russ for the Win!
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nutjob
Sport climber
Almost to Hollywood, Baby!
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Grusspel make me laugh
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Norwegian
Trad climber
the tip of god's middle finger
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im sorry to point limp fingers
but you all are weigh too
absorbed in these emotional pursuits.
who the f*#k cares what trad is?
it's to each his or her own.
if someone crosses an ethical boundary
and dirty-cufks the mountain,
i chop their shite-show
and then, if need be
i fight the villian
who's really me, im not the hero
with the cape,
though i tread as lightly as
i can understand in them high places...
your hyper-analysis into this
topic suggests of your
anti-social regards,
which is exactly why i love you.
really.
this thread is so saturated it's
secreting the virgin's lust-lotion.
let it die, tarbuster.
i know, it feels good to have your
own warm-post, but
there always comes a time
when the tin-plated soldier
must lay down and just russt.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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What a load of f*#king bullshit!If you start from the bottom and climb to the top and it is not a sport climb your f*#king trad climbing. you guys and all your f*#king rules are so f*#king anal I am supprised they even let you out of the f*#king house!
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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That animal nickname guy roolz!
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Russ has a good summary:
What is Trad?
are you f*#king kidding me!?
there's no way I'm reading this 1000 posts of bullsh#t!
Trad is whatever Werner says it is.
"Oh mon you f*#kers are stack o pussy that what it is you f*#kin' pussy"
If he says it's trade it's f*#king trad.
Basically you're putting in nuts, you're climbing past them, you don't know f*#k all about the route, and your left to your own devices to get up the thing, you're not hanging, you're not pulling, you aren't cockin' around, your pants aren't too tight and if you're clipping any bolts they better be rusty.
That's what f*#king trad is.
All this other bullsh#t?
I don't know what the f*#k you guys are gurglin' about.
But you know what?
It doesn't f*#kin' matter.
©2013 Fish
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