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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Laramie
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Mr. Mark,
on several occasions I have interacted with Henry and these meetings were for being something other than his belay slave. Were you out of your diapers by this time? I know something of what the real life Henry was like on turf new to him. The comments I made were to concur with tadesmanclimbs.
BTW a libertarian believes that whatever he does is okay but apparently they do not feel that what others do deserves equal sovereignty. to wit your post asking me to refrain.
I never accused you of being a pussy but I did a SNAG = sensitive new age male not= pussy
Style does not go out of style. Yes, that declaration is like patching one hole in a cannon riddled ship and saying were good to go. Only a fool would believe he had a monopoly on what style is. Ask any actor? We sport doggers have our style but few of us would ever accost one to say he had poor style. So style is not in style with us too much.
If it is okay to bolt on hooks style does go out of style or is style just whatever you are currently doing. Pure Relativism.
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patrick compton
Trad climber
van
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Gold,
I posted nothing re rap bolting yet somehow the logical extension to my argument that a single bolt in 40' or more climbing is a selfish show of egotism is a slippery slope to rap bolting, with high 5s all around.
Nice job trying to squash discussion with hyperbole.
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Laramie
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rgold,
I suppose Dingus might know better, , I presume "otherwise" might have been a better word choice. We mostly concur.
Re: The Black Hills Needles. Kertzman informs me that climbing there is down from the heyday. But a new hooked 5.13 was just put up in the Spires. The area could yield many steep small grit hold climbs. I don't see this turf as being greatly coveted by your average sport climber, even if rap bolting were "permitted".
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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All this bullshit about no hangdogging is just that. Bullshit! If you are never takeing [sic] a hang you simply are not climbing hard enough. If no hangdogging is as hard and fast of a rule for trad as you guys seem to make it out to be then trad is some wimpy ass under achieveing [sic] BS. Too many f*#king rules and way too inflated of an opinion about how cool you are for climbing in a certain way..
Where's Tarbuster when we need him? As discussed repeatedly above, my question about "what is trad?" is one of communication, not one of how to climb. Not having instant access to Werner (or to Russ to interpret him), I'd like to know what to expect if someone describes a "trad" ascent. The "rules" are rules of construction, not rules of climbing.
Further, if I can glean anything from the posts here, most of the posters don't care in what style most others climb, but they care what those doing their same style of climbing do and say. No one cares (or, at least, should care) in what style this 62-ish guy recovering from a torn Achilles tendon climbed what, because my achievements threaten no one's ego. They also don't care what I consider trad, because they aren't keeping score with me. They do, however, care what their peers think about what they climb. As long as their peer group understands what it means by "trad," they don't worry about how anyone else defines it.
That said, how can anyone else decide whether I'm "climbing hard enough?" Making that statement is telling me how to climb, and bears no relation to how I define trad.
It also amazes me that people can claim that adding bolts to existing routes doesn't change the experience for everyone climbing a route. For those who think I'm wrong, I offer a simple thought experiment. Imagine rap-bolting the B-Y to provide sport-quality protection. Even if I only clip bolts placed at the original locations, the commitment changed because I can bail much more easily. For those of us who consider commitment and risk management essential elements of the sport, the extra bolts just eliminated both.
John
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Cave Creek, AZ
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__BTW a libertarian believes that whatever he does is okay but apparently they do not feel that what others do deserves equal sovereignty. to wit your post asking me to refrain.
I never accused you of being a pussy but I did a SNAG = sensitive new age male not= pussy
Mr. McGee,
You have made some interesting assumptions about me. Actually, I am quite libertarian by nature and quite comfortable that anyone can say and do whatever they want as long as they do no physical harm to another person or their property or legally slander them.
You and I both have the right to make complete asses of ourselves. Thank god that right is protected by law, otherwise I'd be serving a life sentence!
I'm not that sensitive; you are certainly free to think or say anything you please about me. My feelings won't be hurt.
There are some questions that come up in this thread about common, or public, properties and their use and the ethical, rather than stylistic, issues concerning them, but this thread is not really the forum for that, if we want to honor Tarbuster's intentions from the original post.
You and I could probably benefit from less time on the computer and more time climbing!
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Laramie
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Mark,
my posts show authorship on the left side of the page. Sick of 'em, then don't read 'em. Where is Tarbuster?? begs one to ask, "and where are your skills??
"Original intent", must mean no hurting of Mark Boy's feelings? You brought a lot of baggage to this forum.
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Laramie
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JEleazarian,
it was Todd Skinner that while giving a slideshow back east told a crowd,"if you are not falling you are not climbing hard enough." For me his saying has some meaning yet it does not tell me what to do.
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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I posted nothing re rap bolting yet somehow the logical extension to my argument that a bolt in 40' or more climbing is a selfish show of egotism is a slippery slope to rap bolting, with high 5s allaround . Nice job trying squash discussion with hyperbole.
Patrick, three points:
1. I purposely chose my words very carefully. I said the "museum climb" argument can (and certainly is) used to justify adding bolts to trad climbs. I didn't say that you were taking that position, just that the argument you used is one often advanced in support of that position.
2. You did post about rap bolting, and there is no "slippery slope to rap bolting" in my response. The bolt you mentioned was placed by a climber who wasn't up to the route, freaked out, had to be rescued, and while secured by the rescuers placed the bolt. If that isn't technically rap bolting, it is surely a functional equivalent. Since you posted a link to a thread in which this was mentioned, it was is reasonable to assume you knew the circumstances.
3. Even if you had chosen a different example that wasn't effectively about rap bolting, since when is the exploration of logical extensions of positions "trying to squash a discussion?" I'd have thought that was part of the process of having a discussion.
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Cave Creek, AZ
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Mr. McGee,
You have hardly hurt my feelings. You will have to try much harder. That's not really the point here, though, is it? It's worthy of all of us to ask why we write what we write and if it's useful to anyone besides ourselves.
I believe the ideal here, and for most contributing to the forum, is to have the chance to "sit around the campfire" and to tell stories (including fish stories and lies in good fun), to crow some about our exploits (past, present, and, hopefully, future), trash talk a bit (as long as it's in good humor), to tease and prod, to share ideas, feelings, and beliefs, and, yes, to have good natured and respectful arguments (hopefully, reasoned, even if passionate). In other words, fun, gratifying, and lively conversation (craic, if you're Irish).
You and I aren't satisfying these things and it's taking away from everyone else involved in the conversation. I welcome conversation; I'm not interested in confrontation; it's boring.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Topic Author's Reply - May 3, 2013 - 03:25pm PT
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Mark Force submitted:
And, as for what is trad? Roy built the framing, Kevin sawed the board and laid it down and lined it up, and Russ nailed it down! The definition is done. This is how I see it and I effectively said so directly following Russ Walling's audio rant.
I also made an edit in that post suggesting that the details which inevitably need to be addressed between those two simple statements, (namely the simplistic statements made in my OP and also echoed in Russ Walling's rant), have been sufficiently addressed and answered in the 1000+ post space bracketed by those two posts. (Examples of these details are things like: cleaning of cracks, FFAs of aid routes, drilling sparsely placed bolts from hooks and so forth).
I used the phrase "book ended" to describe how those two posts nicely bracket the sum total of what I believe to be our most useful collective effort here. If I'd had the power to cap the thread I would've perhaps done so after the half-dozen or so flurries responding to Russ’s blunt synopsis. But in the end I'm more egalitarian than this action would imply.
Wstmrnclmr suggested:
And I don't think the intent of the OP was meant to enforce anything but meerly a good natured excersise to try and define a style of climbing that existed in the past and is echoed by what remains of that style on rock. I don't think anyone is telling someone else how they have to climb.
Yes thank you: for my part this is spot on.
JELeazarian asked:
Where's Tarbuster when we need him? It's time for me to cut loose of this thing. I have long-standing arm problems, (typing and mousing are painful), and I must use voice control software exclusively, but it is still incumbent upon me to use my hands from time to time to make up for gaps in the software's shortcomings and this hurts.
I need to give my arms a rest and besides, some notions are getting covered in duplicate and triplicate by now in this thread, so I believe we have crested the hill and now are investing our efforts for the sake of diminishing returns. In my opinion we've pretty much tagged the salient features of history and requisite observations which help to answer the question at hand in so much as we have distinguished classical trad from modern trad, and I believe the thread will just get thicker without our conclusions being advanced any more clearly.
It would be nice if this thread stood as a resource and I believe if we keep arguing much beyond these the 1000+ posts, that our efforts will be even more buried than they already are. Will continuance serve clarity? It won't for me.
This is where I'm at with it personally. If you all feel there is more to be said then by all means, enjoy yourselves.
Thank you all for your passion, your measured input, and your inestimable contributions to the effort!
It's been an honor to serve the process and I mean that sincerely.
I'll see you around on the forum,
Cheers,
Roy
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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I think Roy is right. We've been there and done that and repetition in a thread this long only dilutes the content. Let's shut it down.
But not without, again, thanks to Roy for piloting the ship.
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patrick compton
Trad climber
van
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rgold,
Fair enough. I misread a particular bolt placed on rappel as rap bolting in the context of the particular sentence, but this assumption was out of context with the larger context. My mistake.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Well done, Roy! I rarely get to read a thread with such a high signal-to-noise ratio, and you deserve much of the credit.
My mind is working overtime to think up another verse to your lyrics, Kevin.
Thanks to all.
Over and out.
John
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hooblie
climber
from out where the anecdotes roam
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yes, thankyou! roy. you managed to ably shepard what you spawned ... exemplary
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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can we all hug now?
it's the rule in California...
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Cave Creek, AZ
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Nice one, Ed!
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Yeah thanks Roy!
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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I read the first hundred or so posts and then went climbing, Even trad climbing unless free soloing is not trad enough for you guys.... i clicked again yesterday and the first thing i see is a set of rules that says you can not work a route. If you do not get it on the first try you must hang your head in shame and be called a hang dogger and therfore your climb can not be considered a trad climb. The next rule I see is that all bolts must be placed free from stances. Well that pretty much eliminates all hard face climbing that is not a slab. So you are trying to tell me that climbs like the Last Unicorn are not trad climbs because Ed Webster drilled some of the bolts on aid? heck by your definition most of the Desert towers that are free climbs are not trad climbs simply because aid was used on the FA. Heck Recompence is not a trad climb because they hung while cleaning the dirt out of the crack on the FA. Now you want to lock the thread because folks are pointing out how stupid your rigid rules are. what a bunch of
Kind of funny how the gunks keep coming up as an example of pure trad climbing when in fact they are riddled with convience bolts...
I really would like to change my screen name. I do not like being pigon holed with such a narrow minded dogma.
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Evel
Trad climber
Nedsterdam CO
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um Gunks "riddled with convenience bolts..." yeah.. musta missed 'em
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Must have either not had your eyes open or you did not climb there before they added all the bolts.
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