Anchor Building Question

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Messages 61 - 80 of total 92 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
Alexey

climber
San Jose, CA
Feb 22, 2013 - 12:04pm PT
no matter OP troll or not , it was very interesting and informational posts on the tread and analysis especially I like rgold answer..
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Feb 22, 2013 - 12:11pm PT
+1 for not untying from the rope. The idea gives me the creeps. Anyone ever drop anything while climbing? Maybe if you have to do this once in a while but if you make it part of your routine I think you're asking for trouble.
ruppell

climber
Feb 22, 2013 - 12:25pm PT
USE CAMS INSTEAD OF NUTS AND ALL ANCHORS ARE BOMBER!!!!1111

Trolling I will go. LOL

When did that ever get said? My answer to your question was using a cam makes it multi-directional. Bomber is another thing all together. You can have bomber anchors made from just about anything. You can also have totally bunk anchors made from just about anything. Ever see some one TR'ing off a dead tree? I have. That anchor was crap even though it was a 30ft tall tree with a 20 inch diameter. Hope this clears up the issue for you. lol
Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
Feb 22, 2013 - 12:31pm PT
Sorry Dave. I thought the op might be a troll, but I though you were being serious. My bad.

I actually don't think the OP is a troll, but I guess I've just read too many anchor threads over the past twenty years. Either way, he'll be fine with what he's doing.

Every anchor is a small engineering project. There are various requirements - it must hold in different scenarios, it most be simple enough, facilitate switching leads, whatever. Some requirements are contradictory (e.g. the equalized and no extension), some are subjective, and many involve actual physics and measurable quantities that most people are not good at assessing intuitively.

With any engineering design there are tradeoffs. You can have more of one characteristic, less of another - but no design gives 100% of everything. We all have our preference for what requirements are more important and often must balance these with our partner's preferences as well.

Very few anchors in the field are actually tested beyond body weight. My guess is that less than one in ten-thousand "trad" anchors are subjected to the extreme forces of a direct fall (fall factor two) or even a hard leader fall that pulleys the belayer upward.

So all of our anchors "work" because usually they are built well, but also because they've never really been subjected to the hard test.

The collective knowledge on these anchor threads is lots of anecdotal evidence, but little real-world scientific data.

It's the failures that are interesting and, fortunately, those are very rare.





Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Feb 22, 2013 - 12:40pm PT
Engineering project, or like rebuilding a muffler with duct tape and a coat hanger. Make the best of what's there. The clock is ticking, your parter is putting on his shoes, hurry up man, what the hell is he DOING up there? OK that should work OFF BELAY! Whoa this stopper is totally useless, what was I thinking. I should move it. UP ROPE! lol.

I know what you mean about upward directionals, the only serious fall I ever caught pulled me up off my feet and hard against the anchor, which was luckily made from cams in a horizontal crack. But then again, my partner outweighed me by about 2 to 1.
Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
Feb 22, 2013 - 12:44pm PT
Yup. Every engineering project also has a schedule.
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Feb 22, 2013 - 12:49pm PT
So all of our anchors "work," because usually they are built well but also because they've never really been subjected to the hard test.

Very true. I've been an active climber for 40+ years, except for a few breaks to mend up. I can't think of a single time I've been in a situation where a belay anchor really got tested, such as in a factor two fall.

I can think of one time when I thought that the entire system would likely fail were I to fall, and that was due to a route finding problem - a mistake on my part - which put my partner and I in a very grave situation. On that day it was not the anchor which was tested...
Manjusri

climber
Feb 22, 2013 - 01:37pm PT
To each his own but I find switching ends is faster than restacking esp. if the belay is awkward or climbing in a party of three, and safer than flipping the stack. Getting shorted by a tangled rope on a dicey runout is one of my least favorite things.

On the other hand, I always consider tying in to be serious business and the partner check is not optional. I guess I just don't see that big a difference between untying on multipitch or single-pitching. Either way you need to be confident in your team's ability to connect to the rope.
ruppell

climber
Feb 22, 2013 - 01:45pm PT
To each his own but I find switching ends is faster than restacking

Stack the rope through a two foot sling attached to the anchor. This has a few advantages. You don't have a mess of rope dangling over you tie in. If you are swapping leads stack long to short. If you will be leading the whole thing stack short to long. It's a great way to keep clutter to a minimum.
nutjob

Sport climber
Almost to Hollywood, Baby!
Feb 22, 2013 - 02:34pm PT
I like to keep it simple enough to be quick about it, but not so simple as to piss off my partner when he arrives at the station.

That gave me a good chuckle!
locker

Social climber
FukUville
Feb 22, 2013 - 03:28pm PT

"I guess I just don't see that big a difference between untying on multipitch or single-pitching."...


I'm missing something here and for some reason can't figure it out at the moment...
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Social climber
SLO, Ca
Feb 22, 2013 - 03:31pm PT
Maybe the difference between untying on the ground and untying seven pitches up??? :)
locker

Social climber
FukUville
Feb 22, 2013 - 03:33pm PT


Fuk!!!...

THAT'S IT!!!...

LOL!!!...

;-)

BlueWing

Boulder climber
SCV, Ca
Feb 22, 2013 - 04:10pm PT
Hey Frumy ... I saw your vid for tr w/ clovehitch and fig8 using one 30 ft cord ...
Used it at top of S-Crack, I felt ok w it ... plz ck these pix and let me know what u think ... I think my rig was ok but room to improve.
Anchor is very lg boulder ... the three web slings are 30 ft and just barely wrap the base of it to tie off.

Credit: BlueWing
[photoid=291
Credit: BlueWing
Credit: BlueWing
002]
Credit: BlueWing
Credit: BlueWing
Credit: BlueWing
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Feb 22, 2013 - 04:16pm PT
"I guess I just don't see that big a difference between untying on multipitch or single-pitching."...

Go do a 30 or 40 pitch climb, throw in freezing conditions and check back with us on that.
BlueWing

Boulder climber
SCV, Ca
Feb 22, 2013 - 04:57pm PT
first, allow me to disqualify my thoughts and opinions on the grounds of my relative lack of experience ...
that being said ...
For me, the most adrenaline I could handle was Monkey Face, Smith Rocks, Eastern Oregon ... so then, I would naturally disagree w stuff like highball bouldering ... and again, what do I know, proper gear and proper use of it is a higher priority than climbing ability and technique. Your ability and technique will improve much faster if you have the confidense that comes w solid protection.
FRUMY

Trad climber
SHERMAN OAKS,CA
Feb 22, 2013 - 05:04pm PT
It's Pyro's video. I've never set pro for S crack. Top roping you can take your time doing what ever you want. Can't see what you are anchored to except the root of the bush.

Leading multi pitch climbs it usually needs to be done fast & with as little gear as possible.

I have caught long hard leader falls, with a climber 60+ lbs. heaver than me. Never had a piece of gear come out.

Bob Kamps used to hip belay me with one piece in. Usually because he had run out of gear.
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Feb 22, 2013 - 06:04pm PT
A couple points...

The guy I started climbing with told me: "For the belay anchor, put in a bomber piece and back it up with a better one. There's not much point to a backup if it's weaker than your main anchor." All we had then were nuts, and of course the fixed pins. I don't think there was a single bolted belay or rap station anywhere at the Gunks back then (the only bolts I recall were lead pro on Arrow and Thin Slabs.) Two nuts with the load as evenly distributed as one could arrange was our practice then and there was often a pin which took care of upward pull. We always built the anchor with the rope as we were always swinging leads.

Cam placements are stronger when the cams are loaded, as opposed to being shock loaded. When I have a belay with cams in the setup I try to arrange it so I have some body weight on those pieces so they are already generating some outward force on the cam lobes should they become suddenly loaded.

When placing cams on the lead for pro, the further out you are on the rope, the more the load in a fall takes place on a curve as the rope stretches and absorbs impact. So make sure if you can that your first piece or two off the belay - when there is very little rope in the system to absorb impact - are really good. Think of them as part of the anchor system as much as lead pro.
rgold

Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
Feb 22, 2013 - 07:08pm PT
John Long taught me many years ago (through one of his books) that my anchors should be able to handle an upward pull.

I don't see how that would work in rgold's diagram.

The diagram illustrates one instance of a procedure. You can use the same system for any number of pieces, oriented in any possible way, assuming you have enough rope to do it with.

If you want to clip to an upward directional with what has already been rigged in the diagram, clove the strand marked "free strand" to the power point (at (3)), extend down and clove to the directional, tightening the cloves so that the directional is held snugly in place.

An anchor set up in a horizontal crack usually does not need a directional.

One thing suggested above that I don't like is assuming cams in a vertical crack will reorient and stay in for an upward pull. You've got a complicated moving system with some cams compressing and some cams extending, the coefficient of friction is probably reduced to the sliding rather than the static value, and the cam might move to a less opportune position. It might work, but I don't think its a good thing to bet the farm on.

At least one authority believes upward directionals are questionable: see the section Upward Pull Pieces and Their Necessity in http://www.chauvinguides.com/Anchoring.PDF. Unfortunately, the author has misunderstood the statics; the "bad angle" illustrated is not bad because it isn't relevant to the direction of the anticipated loads.
FRUMY

Trad climber
SHERMAN OAKS,CA
Feb 22, 2013 - 08:55pm PT
I only use clove hitches when I first get to a belay station, & I'm in trouble, to take myself off & start to set up an anchor system. From then on everything I tie into is with a figure eight on a bite --- & the clove hitch come out & a Figure 8 goes in, but that's just me.
If Ksolem says different I'd listen to Ksolem -- He is one of the most experienced climbers you are ever going to hear from.
I know he's right about your second piece needs to be better than your first, if your first fails.
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