Anchor Building Question

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Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Feb 22, 2013 - 12:41pm PT
Solid
Redundant
Equalized
and have No Extension if one of the redundant components fail

Does this apply to a boot axe belay too?
nutjob

Sport climber
Almost to Hollywood, Baby!
Feb 22, 2013 - 12:43pm PT
Unless you're on a pretty bolted anchor, mostly the solid anchor elements don't line up in a textbook way.

So I tend to custom make whatever the situation calls for, keeping basic principles in mind rather than a formulaic anchor strategy:
 if any piece blows, is it going to cause something else to blow and/or shift things enough to screw me?
 is the anchor solid enough and conveniently placed to redirect the belay? or do I need to supplement the anchor with my body position and belaying off my waist to absorb shock? if I don't need to do that, try to save arm strength by redirecting belay and using body weight to pull up rope slack.
 are we swapping leads or do I need to quickly re-rig to lead next pitch?
 do I have enough/right pieces left for robust anchor placements, enough biners, etc... is the next pitch a rope stretcher?
 are we running out of time, just need something fast even if it's not the most perfect possible solution (but still needs to keep us alive)


Every belay is like a minor variation on a basic freshman physics problem.
justthemaid

climber
Jim Henson's Basement
Feb 22, 2013 - 12:52pm PT
Dangerous!

Well, I did ad that "providing it can be done safely" disclaimer. Obviously there's always ways to UN-safe any procedure.

I actually did it one time and started leading having forgotten to tie back in...

Yeah.. Let's get real.. I'd be willing to wager that's happened to many of us leaving flat ground. Look at the up- side.. At least if you forget to tie back in on multi-pitch you'll be dead instead of maimed for life if you fell off.
scuffy b

climber
heading slowly NNW
Feb 22, 2013 - 01:20pm PT
Bombproof gear tolerates just about any construction method.
locker

Social climber
FukUville
Feb 22, 2013 - 01:32pm PT

THREAD DRIFT:


IMHO untying during a multipitch climb is NOT a real GUD habit to get into...

And that's "Getting real", in my opinion...

;-)




EDITED:

If you're climbing with a partner unwilling or unable to swap leads...

IMO it's SAFER to just go ahead and deal with the cluster fuk rather than untying...

labrat

Trad climber
Auburn, CA
Feb 22, 2013 - 01:46pm PT
"IMHO untying during a multipitch climb is NOT a real GUD habit to get into..."

Agree locker. Always has made me nervous but admit I have done it plenty. I have often been the only leader or not done the leading at all. Using a separate cord for making the anchor works better for me in these situations. Follower comes up and clips to master point, flop or re flake the rope and go.
Erik
johntp

Trad climber
socal
Feb 22, 2013 - 01:54pm PT
Having only one size fits all is n00b ......

Priceless truth...
ruppell

climber
Feb 22, 2013 - 02:06pm PT
John Long taught me many years ago (through one of his books) that my anchors should be able to handle an upward pull.

I don't see how that would work in rgold's diagram.

Substitute one of those nuts for a cam. Problem solved.
locker

Social climber
FukUville
Feb 22, 2013 - 02:12pm PT



Multipitch climb and your partner UNTIES at every belay (and expects YOU to do the same???)???...



Is it SAFER to do on a TWO PITCH climb than on a 10, 12, 15 pitch job???...



FUK THAT!!!...




Get a new partner or stick with SINGLE pitching...

LMAO!!!...

John Butler

Social climber
SLC, Utah
Feb 22, 2013 - 02:38pm PT
I like to keep it simple enough to be quick about it, but not so simple as to piss off my partner when he arrives at the station.
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Feb 22, 2013 - 02:56pm PT
Kris,

There are things out there, on the internet.

People call them "trolls"

Sorry Dave. I thought the op might be a troll, but I though you were being serious. My bad.

...Going back in my hole now.
Alexey

climber
San Jose, CA
Feb 22, 2013 - 03:04pm PT
no matter OP troll or not , it was very interesting and informational posts on the tread and analysis especially I like rgold answer..
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Feb 22, 2013 - 03:11pm PT
+1 for not untying from the rope. The idea gives me the creeps. Anyone ever drop anything while climbing? Maybe if you have to do this once in a while but if you make it part of your routine I think you're asking for trouble.
ruppell

climber
Feb 22, 2013 - 03:25pm PT
USE CAMS INSTEAD OF NUTS AND ALL ANCHORS ARE BOMBER!!!!1111

Trolling I will go. LOL

When did that ever get said? My answer to your question was using a cam makes it multi-directional. Bomber is another thing all together. You can have bomber anchors made from just about anything. You can also have totally bunk anchors made from just about anything. Ever see some one TR'ing off a dead tree? I have. That anchor was crap even though it was a 30ft tall tree with a 20 inch diameter. Hope this clears up the issue for you. lol
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Feb 22, 2013 - 03:40pm PT
Engineering project, or like rebuilding a muffler with duct tape and a coat hanger. Make the best of what's there. The clock is ticking, your parter is putting on his shoes, hurry up man, what the hell is he DOING up there? OK that should work OFF BELAY! Whoa this stopper is totally useless, what was I thinking. I should move it. UP ROPE! lol.

I know what you mean about upward directionals, the only serious fall I ever caught pulled me up off my feet and hard against the anchor, which was luckily made from cams in a horizontal crack. But then again, my partner outweighed me by about 2 to 1.
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Feb 22, 2013 - 03:49pm PT
So all of our anchors "work," because usually they are built well but also because they've never really been subjected to the hard test.

Very true. I've been an active climber for 40+ years, except for a few breaks to mend up. I can't think of a single time I've been in a situation where a belay anchor really got tested, such as in a factor two fall.

I can think of one time when I thought that the entire system would likely fail were I to fall, and that was due to a route finding problem - a mistake on my part - which put my partner and I in a very grave situation. On that day it was not the anchor which was tested...
Manjusri

climber
Feb 22, 2013 - 04:37pm PT
To each his own but I find switching ends is faster than restacking esp. if the belay is awkward or climbing in a party of three, and safer than flipping the stack. Getting shorted by a tangled rope on a dicey runout is one of my least favorite things.

On the other hand, I always consider tying in to be serious business and the partner check is not optional. I guess I just don't see that big a difference between untying on multipitch or single-pitching. Either way you need to be confident in your team's ability to connect to the rope.
ruppell

climber
Feb 22, 2013 - 04:45pm PT
To each his own but I find switching ends is faster than restacking

Stack the rope through a two foot sling attached to the anchor. This has a few advantages. You don't have a mess of rope dangling over you tie in. If you are swapping leads stack long to short. If you will be leading the whole thing stack short to long. It's a great way to keep clutter to a minimum.
nutjob

Sport climber
Almost to Hollywood, Baby!
Feb 22, 2013 - 05:34pm PT
I like to keep it simple enough to be quick about it, but not so simple as to piss off my partner when he arrives at the station.

That gave me a good chuckle!
locker

Social climber
FukUville
Feb 22, 2013 - 06:28pm PT

"I guess I just don't see that big a difference between untying on multipitch or single-pitching."...


I'm missing something here and for some reason can't figure it out at the moment...
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