DanaB
climber
CT
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Feb 22, 2013 - 09:01am PT
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Jim Titt from Munich posts here once in a while, but for some reason, much more often on RC.Com. I couldn't find the posts/threads, but he presents some very convincing evidence a) against the sliding X, b) the impossibility of equalizing, and c) the dangers of extension shock loading. He has acccess to testing equipment and the knowledge and experience for using it sensibly, and he also has, I believe, access to the German Alpine Club's extensive data base on testing ropes and anchors. He did some very interesting tests on equalizing loads with the rope, slings, and cordolettes. He found that when using a cordolette with three legs, if there was even a tiny bit of difference in the length of legs - a difference no one could see or feel - then the loads to each leg were grossly disproportionate. So if you are using a three-leg cordolette, you are essentially anchoring from one piece. Which is fine, of course, it really is. All of this anchor discussion makes many people impatient, but it is just a way of learning to use the tools sensibly. I certainly don't spend a lot of time agonizing over the anchors I build. Good pieces and good rock - after that, in most cases what you do doesn't matter too much, e.g., I would never use the sliding X but I wouldn't go nuts if one of my partners did
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TheTye
Trad climber
Sacramento CA
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Feb 22, 2013 - 09:08am PT
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Wolf-
Yea. That is kinda what I was thinking but I thought mayhap there was something I was missing that made it clean and quick, like maybe clove hitching to additional biners or something like that... but yes, cordellete all the way... and maybe the occasional rope anchor at the last pitch...
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justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
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Feb 22, 2013 - 09:11am PT
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Tye, if you are not swapping leads it gets difficult to use only the rope. Someone may pipe in with a method that works that I'm not aware of, but most of the time that scenario is going involve a cordalette or equalized slings for her to clip into. At that point you are probably going to be clipped into it too negating the rope-only method.
Edit to add:
If there is a large enough ledge, the hubby and I sometimes just untie and swap rope-ends when there is only one leader (providing it can be done safely of course). That way the rope is already flaked correctly negating the rope clusterf*#k and a lot of time is saved.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Feb 22, 2013 - 09:12am PT
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rgolds setup is a lot easier to understand if you just do it. Go try it starting at step 1 and work your way through. You will find it very quick and simple to do and pretty obvious when building it.
It is automatically set up for swapping leads. If you don't plan to swap leads a cordallette or other non rope only anchor may be preferable but is still not absolutely necessary.
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Dave Kos
Social climber
Temecula
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Feb 22, 2013 - 09:20am PT
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John Long taught me many years ago (through one of his books) that my anchors should be able to handle an upward pull.
I don't see how that would work in rgold's diagram.
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Dave Kos
Social climber
Temecula
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Feb 22, 2013 - 09:21am PT
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If there is a large enough ledge, the hubby and I sometimes [...]
The second part of that sentence was not as interesting as it could have been.
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justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
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Feb 22, 2013 - 09:25am PT
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...Take a nap?
...swap..er.. something other than rope ends?
;)
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locker
Social climber
FukUville
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Feb 22, 2013 - 09:39am PT
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"the hubby and I sometimes just untie and swap rope-ends when there is only one leader"...
Dangerous!!!...
I actually did it one time and started leading having forgotten to tie back in...
LOL!!!...
TRUE!!!...
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Feb 22, 2013 - 09:41am PT
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Solid
Redundant
Equalized
and have No Extension if one of the redundant components fail
Does this apply to a boot axe belay too?
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justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
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Feb 22, 2013 - 09:52am PT
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Dangerous!
Well, I did ad that "providing it can be done safely" disclaimer. Obviously there's always ways to UN-safe any procedure.
I actually did it one time and started leading having forgotten to tie back in...
Yeah.. Let's get real.. I'd be willing to wager that's happened to many of us leaving flat ground. Look at the up- side.. At least if you forget to tie back in on multi-pitch you'll be dead instead of maimed for life if you fell off.
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scuffy b
climber
heading slowly NNW
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Feb 22, 2013 - 10:20am PT
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Bombproof gear tolerates just about any construction method.
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locker
Social climber
FukUville
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Feb 22, 2013 - 10:32am PT
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THREAD DRIFT:
IMHO untying during a multipitch climb is NOT a real GUD habit to get into...
And that's "Getting real", in my opinion...
;-)
EDITED:
If you're climbing with a partner unwilling or unable to swap leads...
IMO it's SAFER to just go ahead and deal with the cluster fuk rather than untying...
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labrat
Trad climber
Auburn, CA
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Feb 22, 2013 - 10:46am PT
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"IMHO untying during a multipitch climb is NOT a real GUD habit to get into..."
Agree locker. Always has made me nervous but admit I have done it plenty. I have often been the only leader or not done the leading at all. Using a separate cord for making the anchor works better for me in these situations. Follower comes up and clips to master point, flop or re flake the rope and go.
Erik
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johntp
Trad climber
socal
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Feb 22, 2013 - 10:54am PT
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Having only one size fits all is n00b ......
Priceless truth...
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ruppell
climber
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Feb 22, 2013 - 11:06am PT
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John Long taught me many years ago (through one of his books) that my anchors should be able to handle an upward pull.
I don't see how that would work in rgold's diagram.
Substitute one of those nuts for a cam. Problem solved.
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locker
Social climber
FukUville
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Feb 22, 2013 - 11:12am PT
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Multipitch climb and your partner UNTIES at every belay (and expects YOU to do the same???)???...
Is it SAFER to do on a TWO PITCH climb than on a 10, 12, 15 pitch job???...
FUK THAT!!!...
Get a new partner or stick with SINGLE pitching...
LMAO!!!...
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Dave Kos
Social climber
Temecula
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Feb 22, 2013 - 11:26am PT
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USE CAMS INSTEAD OF NUTS AND ALL ANCHORS ARE BOMBER!!!!1111
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John Butler
Social climber
SLC, Utah
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Feb 22, 2013 - 11:38am PT
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I like to keep it simple enough to be quick about it, but not so simple as to piss off my partner when he arrives at the station.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Feb 22, 2013 - 11:56am PT
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Kris,
There are things out there, on the internet.
People call them "trolls"
Sorry Dave. I thought the op might be a troll, but I though you were being serious. My bad.
...Going back in my hole now.
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SuperTopo on the Web
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if any piece blows, is it going to cause something else to blow and/or shift things enough to screw me?
Let us know!