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micronut
Trad climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 25, 2013 - 11:49pm PT
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Kennyt
Two points.
1. Anybody who values their children and wants to homeschool can, regardless of income. We have three close friends who are strapped financially but choose to homeschool (3-6 kids each family) Dad is a PE teacher at a small country school. Mom stays home. The other is a youth pastor. Mom stays home. TOTAL family income in the 30-50Krange. They do not eat out. They go out to a movie rarely. They have old phones and no cable. But they have great kids who are growing up healthy, smart, and well rounded. And these moms have college degrees. Could be out makin' that cash. But they choose to put their time talent and energy into something other than themselves.
2. I dig a good public school. Two of my four went to public school for some time and had good experiences. We had some good teachers and some not so good. Many of their friends are public schoolers. They just like homeschool more and we dig it and the fruit we see in their lives is our barometer.
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micronut
Trad climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 25, 2013 - 11:54pm PT
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Also,
You're hosed if you try to homeschool to "keep your kids away from the world" or to "protect them from it".
They're gonna live in it for the rest of their lives. They need to know how to navigate it and be in it but not "of" it, if that makes sense. Homeschooling lets us prepare their hearts and minds and logic and creativity to to grow up healthy, with a strong, confident identity so they can grow up to be amazing plumbers, physicians, lawyers, starving artists, dirtbag climbers or whatever they want to be.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Jan 25, 2013 - 11:56pm PT
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I'm glad that your children are doing great in a homeschooling setting.
A dumbed down Calif. Curriculum vs. Teaching how and what we deem important
-Bullies and school shootings vs. A caring and safe environment
-A worldview shaped by lusty, lazy classmates with home issues vs. A solid identity based in love and respect
These are all strawman arguments. If you live in a bad area with bad schools, bad teachers, bads peers, then this is true. But there are lots of good schools that teach challenging curriculums in caring and save environments and with classmates that are every bit as smart and inquisitive as your own, and who add to the experience and whose ideas help your children develop their own worldview based not just on what you the parent is teaching.
Just sayin.
Go ahead. Pat yourself on the back. But not too hard.
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micronut
Trad climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 26, 2013 - 12:05am PT
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Rgold. My take on your points.
1. I don't really worry about bullies and shootings. I was kinda exaggerating. sorry.
2. I DO believe in the generalization that today's youth are basically lusty and lazy. My oldest daughter teaches freshman high school math. Day in, day out in a middle america high school. I see teenage patients daily and spend time getting to know them. That's my general characteristic of what I see and hear about personally and I'm stickin' to it as a basic generalization. But there are still plenty of great kids out there.
3. Sadly, the Calif. school systems are dumbing down in many ways. Everybody loses. From kids who struggle to mid level learners to high achievers. The new "common core" stuff has promise across the board, but is going to take a while to implement.
4. We are college minded, both my wife and I are pretty educated. SO we're gonna be on that track with what we teach and know that they need big SAT scores, since homeschool grades are arbitrary pretty much. And college admissions depts know that. My kids are testing super high in STAR and PSAT tests right now, so I'm not worried about the core of their curriculum. We play a ton as a family. And we teach about gardening, wilderness first aid, masonry, engines, bouldering, bridge building with legos, etc...AFTER they have the required stuff in the bag.
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Kalimon
Trad climber
Ridgway, CO
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Jan 26, 2013 - 12:08am PT
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Cragman now quotes Ghandi . . . priceless!
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Snowmassguy
Trad climber
Calirado
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Jan 26, 2013 - 12:15am PT
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One of my children plays competitive sports at a very high level. Probably half of the kids on her team are home schooled. These are kids that you very well might see at the Olympics or at least competing on the international stage. They started training 2 X per day ( AM and PM). Out of state travel 2-3x per month, some traveling internationally for weeks at a time. No way you could do it to the fullest level and attend regular school. Seems most of the home schooling is done on line these days ( at least in my kids circle). These kids are all getting athletic scholarships to top universities but their primary focus is on the sport. Seems to work well for them or at least that is my impression.
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Kalimon
Trad climber
Ridgway, CO
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Jan 26, 2013 - 12:20am PT
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Snowmassguy . . . you are part of the exception to the rule . . . you yuppies do not understand your privileged position in the new world order. Poor kids don't get to play your silly games.
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micronut
Trad climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 26, 2013 - 12:25am PT
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Kalimon.
You are wrong bro. My daughter has two homeschooled kids on her club swim team. Both are getting full rides to UC systems. (one educationally one athletically) Both have parents who are struggling financially. Mom stays home. Dad has a low end job, just gettin by.
Its a pretty good gig for kids if parents value their future.
Parents income is not an issue. We have 200 kids in our homeschool group. Most of the families are very humble financially. Very.
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micronut
Trad climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 26, 2013 - 12:26am PT
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But, its not for everybody. You can really mess up a kid if you are a lame parent or a lame teacher or both.
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Snowmassguy
Trad climber
Calirado
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Jan 26, 2013 - 12:27am PT
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Kalimon I would have to disagree with you on that one. If a kid has enough talent in modern youth sports, it is pretty much fully subsidized to the point where the expense for the parents is minimal. It also involves parents working multiple jobs and making great sacrifices so their kids can have these experiences. You should see my rack....still using the gear I bought 20+ years ago. Just sprung for new harness last year as I was beginning to think mine was going to fail one of these days.
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Kalimon
Trad climber
Ridgway, CO
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Jan 26, 2013 - 12:30am PT
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Parents income is not an issue.
I guess you are correct . . . financial aid is readily available for those living slightly above and below the poverty line. Whatever bro, carry on with your warm and fuzzy world view.
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Snowmassguy
Trad climber
Calirado
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Jan 26, 2013 - 12:31am PT
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Grumpymon^^^^
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Kalimon
Trad climber
Ridgway, CO
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Jan 26, 2013 - 12:35am PT
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More pissed off than grumpy.
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Jan 26, 2013 - 12:41am PT
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micronut...I think it's not good to paint the Calif. public education system w/ the same broad brush that you hope Californians won't use when looking at home schooling. Some kids do better in each model. There are good and bad educators in both places, and students who are better off in one or the other.
Sincerely,
A public educator who has a few great home-schooled students too...
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Gunks Guy
Trad climber
Woodstock, NY
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Jan 26, 2013 - 12:43am PT
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If you are not homeschooling your kids, why would you even waste the effort to type out your opinion on this??? Does this somehow rate up there with the top social issues of the day? If so, I am truly curious as to why.
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micronut
Trad climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 26, 2013 - 01:16am PT
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I think its a good conversation and I appreciate yall's views.
Melissa,
I do think California's school systems are heading in an ugly direction though. Despite some great teachers and some great districts doing really good things. It's a broad brushstroke but fully aware of the excellent exceptions out there. Thanks for your hard work.
Its like the medical system. I see where it's headed but I choose to practice medicine differently based on my ethic and my training, my worldview and my day to day experience. Like I said, I have a daughter who is a hardworking teacher in the public school system and she's doing a great job out there.
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limpingcrab
Trad climber
the middle of CA
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Jan 26, 2013 - 01:17am PT
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My siblings and I homeschooled when we were young and started public school in 4th grade and we're all perfect! Kidding, but it seemed like a good combo. We all entered school way ahead of our grade level, then made lots of friends right as we started getting weird.
I must say that homeschooling is not a rich people activity. My mom stayed at home, while my dad taught at a private high school making $19,000 per year (in the 80s/90s). All my homeschool friends were broke and our moms made our clothes, but it worked.
Also, the VAST majority of public school kids are super lazy. It's actually impressive. If you disagree, go teach at a few schools and you'll secede.
SUMMARY: It's all on the parents. i.e. I'm awesome (my parents are awesome), but one of my homeschool friends (strange parents) is in the hospital from eloping and trying to walk across the state barefooted on drugs with her husband.
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skywalker
climber
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Jan 26, 2013 - 01:59am PT
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Hey if it works for you go for it. Lets not attack public education however. As a high school science teacher in a very high achieving school I have some classes where basics are taught (keeping a binder organized, planning things out, etc). I also teach A.P. classes for college credit.
What really counts is having great teachers with great parents. And the two can be combined as one and IS one way or the other. I've seen kids do great in a home schooled situation and have felt I was home schooling someone else's kid in others.
S...
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Jan 26, 2013 - 02:46am PT
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I think all parents ought to be involved in home-schooling, but not necessarily to the extent of keeping their children at home and away from school. The attitudes towards education, the respect for curiosity, the rewards of discovery, the work habits, the time-management skills, the tolerance for frustration, and the ability to work for long-term goals are things that, I think, you get from home. I think everyone involved in education wishes that all parents cared as much as those who choose to home-school.
I don't know much about the California schools, other than the fact that they used to be among the best in the nation and were degraded by "taxpayer" initiatives. But my own and my family's experiences make me wonder about the potential narrowing of perspective inherent in giving over the entire educational enterprise to one or two people, no matter how dedicated.
I may be biased, because I had wonderful teachers in high-school, people who not only undid the often dreary view of academics I had in elementary and middle school, but opened windows on the world of the intellect that I could never have imagined. My parents were loving and educated, but there is no way, had they decided on home-schooling, that they could ever have exposed me to what I encountered in high school. I imagine I would have turned out just fine, but, for example, I'm quite sure I wouldn't be a mathematician, because there is simply no way my parents could have shown me the wonders of that subject, which were simply beyond their knowledge and experience, even if they could have taught me the routines and algorithms necessary to do well on my SAT's. I could go on to write many paragraphs about formative experiences in high school that simply could not have happened at home.
Parents, at least most parents, want the very best for their children and are willing to go to great lengths and make considerable personal sacrifices to set their kids on a good path. I think the home-schooling instinct comes from this natural and admirable instinct. And as I've said, the involvement in parents in their children's education is in any case critical. But the variety and richness of the world of knowledge and experience is more than one or two people can possibly span, unless they are very exceptional indeed, and doors that are unseen can never be opened. Schools can do this. School do, in fact, do this all the time. Not for everyone, of course, but there is little reason to believe home-schooling works for everyone either.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Jan 26, 2013 - 02:53am PT
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This has been an illuminating discussion.
I admit to having come to the table with some prejudice against homeschooling. I suppose that comes from contact with people who'd gone through it in the distant past, and had significant life problems.
I'd not really thought about it, but the online revolution must have made incredible resources available, including the ability to organize among other like-minded.
I have thought that the unskippable issue is the parent/teacher. It can be hard to wear two hats. It can also be difficult to assess, when one is not a professional educator. But I think this has probably changed. I would still think it a struggle, if one were not college educated, but perhaps not.
I think GOOD options are a good thing.
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