Lance is a Saint !

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Kalimon

Trad climber
Ridgway, CO
Jan 21, 2013 - 10:29pm PT
people need to stop being jealous.

If there was some underhand way to rise to the top, any one of you scumbags would take it in a heartbeat.

holding people up to some standard of honesty and integrity and justice is unrealistic and frankly, not an accurate reflection of human nature.

No doubt! Get a grip folks . . . we are lied to everyday, our very nation is founded on lies and deceit. What are we to make of this reality?

Lance is just another pawn in the game . . . why don't you all ride the Tour de France and place, let alone drag your sorry asses across the finish line in Paris, then get back to me with your blaring self righteousness.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Jan 22, 2013 - 12:18am PT
The peak of absurdity was Sean Kelly getting popped after using his team mechanic's urine...The mechanic was using a stimulant to stay ahead of the repairs...stupid irish...Ooops....sorry patrick...RJ
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jan 22, 2013 - 12:21am PT
RJ, Patrick? Be afraid. Be very afraid. There could be tiny footsteps about.

Edit: Because I like you I'll just say that if you hear the Little Ones giggling it's already too late.
part-time communist

Mountain climber
Jan 22, 2013 - 12:47am PT
No doubt! Get a grip folks . . . we are lied to everyday, our very nation is founded on lies and deceit. What are we to make of this reality?

yea. I think even Steve Jobs was known as a liar to get what he wants even to the point of believing his own lies with fervor. People need to stop viewing "lying" as a "bad" thing.
part-time communist

Mountain climber
Jan 22, 2013 - 12:50am PT
That's the most retarded, self exposing mumble jumble I've heard in a long time.

the most retarded mumble jumble I've heard is the words and concepts and guiding principles that stem from the umbrella known as morality.
Degaine

climber
Jan 22, 2013 - 03:44am PT
Patrick Sawyer wrote:
Aren't we flogging a dead horse.

What don't some of you get it, he deliberately ruined people's careers and reputations for fortune and fame. He hurt people.

Why in the world would you idolize this guy.

Leave it be. He's a cheat and a creep. And a user.

Hi Patrick,

There aren't very many posters (if any) in this thread and the other Lance Armstrong thread idolizing the guy. And those who do have a few positive things to write certainly aren't idolizing him.

What most of us are writing (or at least me in any case) is that it's odd and disingenuous to crucify Lance but to give other riders and the system a pass. It's not one bad apple, it's the whole sport at a professional level.

This is a witch hunt in order to sweep everything else under the rug, and as usual the UCI and all the sponsors are hoping that the general public will look left (read pay attention to Lance) while they continue to doing what they've always been doing on the right.

Singling out Lance is like singling out Lt. Calley at My Lai, or Lynndie England at Abu Ghraib instead of going to the source much higher up. Plenty of people (including Landis and Hamilton), especially in the US, were plenty happy to make money off Lance when there was the appearance of him being clean, and now they're pointing fingers as if they never knew and had nothing to do with encouraging and condoning the us of PEDs.

Pointing the finger only at Lance is the flip side of the hero worship and idolizing that you are criticizing.
Degaine

climber
Jan 22, 2013 - 03:53am PT
PTC wrote:
people need to stop being jealous.

Where on earth did you get the idea that anyone posting on the Lance Armstrong thread's was jealous?

PTC wrote:
If there was some underhand way to rise to the top, any one of you scumbags would take it in a heartbeat.

Wow, you don't even know me and you're referring to me as a scumbag. You sure you're not just projecting?

I had the opportunity to "rise to the top" so to speak in the pharmaceutical industry, when they started asking me to lie, I quit.

PTC wrote:
holding people up to some standard of honesty and integrity and justice is unrealistic and frankly, not an accurate reflection of human nature.

I half agree, at least with the first part of your sentence. It is indeed unrealistic to, on the one hand, hold cyclists (I use cyclists as an example since this is a Lance Armstrong thread) to a high standard of honesty and integrity on the one hand, and then on the other hand, tell them that their livelihood depends on them accomplishing feats of strength and endurance that require them to cheat.

The accurate reflection of human nature, in my humble experience, is to "do the right thing" in general, but when backed into a corner, the fight or flight instinct for survival will take precedence over the notion of doing the right thing. To be a bit redundant, in the case of cycling, "survival" (read livelihood) was threatened if they did not take drugs.

I don't think it's unrealistic to hold modern society to such high standards. But it's a Maslow's pyramid sort of situation.
slayton

Trad climber
Here and There
Jan 22, 2013 - 05:50am PT
For the sake of clarity, I don't give a sh#t about professional cycling or any other professional sport. Don't much watch em and don't really care. Except inasmuch as I know that many, many others do watch and care, in particular younger, impressionable minds who might be looking up to individuals in these sports as heroes and role models.

I find it truly amazing that professional athletes make incomes as large as they do while providing society with nothing more than entertainment to the masses or perhaps hope to individuals that maybe they can do the same. Incomes of magnitudes higher than teachers, firemen, policemen, or any other profession that is actually contributing to society in a tangible way. Any number of "entertainment" professions could be lumped into the same bucket. It seems that these are our gladiatorial games to keep us pacified but I assign no higher ups or conspiracy to do so. It's all us. I think maybe it's because of human nature that we look outside of ourselves and mundane existence to find some kind of common ground with others, some kind of excitement beyond our daily lives. Thus professional sports, movies, music, and celebrity that so many seem to obsess about. Are they really worth that much?

Lance Armstrong, with all the hoopla and the Oprah interview is the name of the day. Most of the general public now following all of this, myself included, probably don't know much about the inter workings of the professional cycling industry. Reading this thread and reading much elsewhere it's obvious that particular sport has some serious issues to be worked out with regards to performance enhancement drugs. What's new? Same can be said of many, if not most, professional (and collegiate?) sports.

Lance Armstrong f*#ked up by doping, as so many others did in the cycling circuit and the overall culture of that sport needs to be examined and rectified by those involved. My major beef in all of this is that knowing that he had doped in the first place he not only went on to lie about it he went on to pursue, vilify, attack, and sue those that knew the truth and called him out on it. He might be a scapegoat for the cycling world but that's not mutually exclusive from being an as#@&%e.

And no, I'm not jealous. It's sad enough that, for whatever reason, our society places more value on entertainers than those who actually contribute. Society isn't and shouldn't be a race to the bottom. Not everyone sees the world and human nature as Part Time Communist does. We're not all out to step on each other for personal gain no matter what. The ends sometimes don't justify the means.
apinguat

Trad climber
kingfield, me
Jan 22, 2013 - 06:25am PT
wow
consider yourself deleted and blocked on facebook.

my best friends wouldn't step on a spider to get ahead -. whatever "ahead" means in the second place..

this country really is producing some POS's - you can be proud of yourself America

While we would all like to think we would be better, chances are very few of us have what it takes to make the most difficult and/or self sacrificing decisions. While you and the chief will scoff at this, tell me why so few involved in cycling stepped up to stop this? And cycling is one, mean nothing, simple example of human weakness.

I feel like a good number of dramatic posts about character are either naive youth feeling assured you "have it" or some old fart on the couch looking back thinking "I had it". Neither truly tested.

Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Jan 22, 2013 - 06:42am PT
Degaine, I hear what you are saying.

But did those other cheats go out of their way to hurt the reputation and pocketbooks of people like Armstrong did?

My point is this, perhaps through Lifestrong, LA did people some good, but he also stepped on people. Question: when does the bad negate the good?

And PTC, I have had in my career the opportunity to step on people to advance and I NEVER have. My mom taught me values.

I am no angel or saint. Just a human trying to take care of my partner, and when she (dementia) throws a wobbly at times, she sometimes calls me a scumbag, like you called a lot of us in your post.

Back in 2003, I was doing shift work on the news desk at the then Ireland on Sunday. The editor told me to interview a certain political activist (now an independent TD). He told me to "stitch" this guy up. I have never ever stitched anybody up.

I interviewed the guy and submitted my article, which was as objective as can be. The editor changed my copy to his liking, stitching the guy up, and well, stitching me up since my byline was on the article.

Lance Armstrong stitched people up. Now PTC, you tell me that is right.
thirsty

climber
Jan 22, 2013 - 10:03am PT
The arguments over how to eliminate cheating from sports or wether to just allow people to use whatever supplements they like seem way off the mark in terms of where the actual illness lies. THe perversion is professionalism and the idea that paying to watch someone play a game is a good idea. Even in amateur competition you will have some cheating, but because there is no money involved, its just a matter of honor and who you want to play with.

part-time communist

Mountain climber
Jan 22, 2013 - 10:40am PT
I had the opportunity to "rise to the top" so to speak in the pharmaceutical industry,

there is a big difference between taking the next "stepping stone" in career advancement and mandatory day to day life and $75 million.

LOL
nutjob

Sport climber
Almost to Hollywood, Baby!
Jan 22, 2013 - 12:53pm PT

PTC ascribes deception and dishonesty as basic elements of human nature, that we are disingenuous if we expect more.

I see deception and dishonesty as a form of moral entropy... Things tend in that direction in the absence of constructive thought and directed intention to create a world in which we want to live. It is ongoing work to fight the impulses of momentary satisfaction to shape a world we are proud to live in and be an active part of.

In the face of so many people who have given up the fight, it takes a lot courage and strength and clarity to keep up the good fight. That to me is what being human, having free will, is all about.

P.S. Don't need Jesus to think that way, but if that floats your boat and gives you a good framework for living, more power to you.


I think where things get really tricky is when doing the "right" thing hurts people who depend on us (hurts according to their own value system which may not match ours/yours/mine/etc). The morality becomes gray when you think about helping ones you love versus "doing what is right for humanity."
crunch

Social climber
CO
Jan 22, 2013 - 01:38pm PT
slayton said it best:

For the sake of clarity, I don't give a sh#t about professional cycling or any other professional sport. Don't much watch em and don't really care. Except inasmuch as I know that many, many others do watch and care, in particular younger, impressionable minds who might be looking up to individuals in these sports as heroes and role models.

I find it truly amazing that professional athletes make incomes as large as they do while providing society with nothing more than entertainment to the masses or perhaps hope to individuals that maybe they can do the same. Incomes of magnitudes higher than teachers, firemen, policemen, or any other profession that is actually contributing to society in a tangible way. Any number of "entertainment" professions could be lumped into the same bucket. It seems that these are our gladiatorial games to keep us pacified but I assign no higher ups or conspiracy to do so. It's all us. I think maybe it's because of human nature that we look outside of ourselves and mundane existence to find some kind of common ground with others, some kind of excitement beyond our daily lives. Thus professional sports, movies, music, and celebrity that so many seem to obsess about. Are they really worth that much?

Lance Armstrong, with all the hoopla and the Oprah interview is the name of the day. Most of the general public now following all of this, myself included, probably don't know much about the inter workings of the professional cycling industry. Reading this thread and reading much elsewhere it's obvious that particular sport has some serious issues to be worked out with regards to performance enhancement drugs. What's new? Same can be said of many, if not most, professional (and collegiate?) sports.

Lance Armstrong f*#ked up by doping, as so many others did in the cycling circuit and the overall culture of that sport needs to be examined and rectified by those involved. My major beef in all of this is that knowing that he had doped in the first place he not only went on to lie about it he went on to pursue, vilify, attack, and sue those that knew the truth and called him out on it. He might be a scapegoat for the cycling world but that's not mutually exclusive from being an as#@&%e.

And no, I'm not jealous. It's sad enough that, for whatever reason, our society places more value on entertainers than those who actually contribute.

Excellent.
Mike Friedrichs

Sport climber
City of Salt
Jan 22, 2013 - 01:47pm PT
Sometimes I think you people have no empathy at all. Sure LA lied, cheated, and really hurt a lot of people. But he has to live with that. And he has to live with that whether he is sincere or not, whether he has shame or not, whether he has regrets or not. Why is it so important to jump on him when he's down? Seems cowardly to me. Why can't you step back and see what he does with the rest of his life, not the past?

And the hypocrisy! I've known many climbers that don't have the courage to lead a difficult route without dope. You even have a "hippy lettuce appreciation" thread. Why not a EPO appreciation thread?

I'm not defending Lance Armstrong. I am pretty fascinated at how vindictive, self-righteous, and cruel some of you are. I hope you never have your past examined or exposed.
Degaine

climber
Jan 22, 2013 - 01:59pm PT
PTC wrote:
there is a big difference between taking the next "stepping stone" in career advancement and mandatory day to day life and $75 million.

LOL

My apologies, PTC, I didn't realize you were just trolling, so my fault for actually responding to you seriously.

Have a great day!
apinguat

Trad climber
kingfield, me
Jan 22, 2013 - 09:35pm PT
RW seems you have a lot of anger. I am sort of sorry you've written off so many people.
deuce4

climber
Hobart, Australia
Jan 23, 2013 - 05:01am PT
The most toxic aspect of the Lance saga is not that he cheated (he didn't escape its consequences, so nothing more needs to be said), but more the vengeance and abuse of his power as a public figure towards those who were critical of him.

That vengeance in fact helped convince people of his innocence, because it was impossible to believe that anyone could be so heartless in shredding other people's credibility so completely (and legally) unless he was in fact innocent. It was above and beyond what he had to do to maintain his reputation, and in retrospect, quite senseless and insane.

In Oprah's interview, he seemed to downplay the significance of his extreme bullying.

Bad karma for Lance, and only getting worse.
part-time communist

Mountain climber
Jan 26, 2013 - 01:30pm PT
Bad karma for Lance, and only getting worse.


It's amazing people's need to employ moral terms to make sense of the situation. Or we start projecting the problem into the transcendental and global realm.

When all that is needed is taking a closer look into the psychology of it all. When you end up beating cancer, do you think you are going to let anything else get in the way? You are thrust into a rather skewed mentality of what is possible. If anyone has read Nietzsche, you will see that "will to power" is the driving force behind human intention and action, not concerns of what I "should" do.

Jebus H Bomz

climber
Reno, Nuh VAAAA duh
Jan 26, 2013 - 02:01pm PT
I find it truly amazing that professional athletes make incomes as large as they do while providing society with nothing more than entertainment to the masses or perhaps hope to individuals that maybe they can do the same.


Yeah, I don't pay much attention to any of that sh#t. Not watching the stupor bowl, I don't care how your college team is doing, and you can f*#k off with your jerseys proclaiming allegiance to a life spent watching TV. All the people here attributing any lesson of worth to this story are just more suckers taken in by the ad machine. Congrats, idiots, you sold a magazine, you supported coca cola, you sniffed the glue.
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