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Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Jan 11, 2013 - 09:06am PT
i can only speak for myself, don paul, but i assure you that i don't rely solely on websites for information. i have a couple shelves of books at home, about 30 books in all, which deal with these difficult subjects. i don't rely on one book--i try to get related books and compare how they approach different controversies. often i will read a book from the "other side". books are better than websites, youtube links, newspapers, magazines, radio and television, although these other sources have their place. a lot more thought and care goes into a book. being a former newspaper reporter, i also seek out key people and try to meet them and question them personally. this is relatively easy to do if you live in los angeles and pay attention to who comes to town.

you're raising the "mental illness" card here. let me tell you a little story about that, which others on supertopo might remember, because i got into a tangle with our great largo on the subject of 9/11 truth here about three years ago.

as it happens, largo attended the claremont graduate school of theology. i don't think he was ambitious to become a protestant pastor, which is the thrust of their program, but rather was pursuing an abiding interest in academic philosophy. CST is known for its center for process studies, founded by john cobb and david ray griffin. it deals with the "process" philosophy of alfred north whitehead, which kinda goes over my head, although in the (haha) process of our discussions, i found i was quite familiar with another process philosopher, pierre teilhard de chardin, who coincidentally has come up on this very thread.

the discussion with largo took place on the "why do so many people believe in god (serious question)" thread. largo's approach to that seemed to resemble what i knew about griffin from another area, and i mentioned that, and eventually the predictable 9/11 sword fight took place. largo suggested then that i might be mentally ill, but he doesn't do so any more.

griffin's book, the new pearl harbor, published in 2004, is one of the books in my special collection. it was the seminal book of the 9/11 truth movement, a very careful review and vetting of evidence and arguments at the time. he has since written several other books on the subject, including one entitled debunking the debunking. his wife has remarked, "you used to write books that put people to sleep. now you write books that keep them awake."

largo conceded that griffin was a respectable and challenging professor, but "he went south" on the 9/11 issue. largo's personal advisor at CST was cobb, who hadn't gone south ... yet. about a year after our little fur-fly, griffin finally persuaded cobb to join him on the dais at local 9/11 truth presentations, where cobb will admit to "being a truther" and let griffin do most of the talking. cobb came reluctantly. the truth party isn't a love party.

largo and i seem to have an unspoken truce. i stay away from the dr. F threads and he hasn't since joined in a tin hat stoning. but, if you're interested in psychoanalyzing the mentally ill, you might begin with dr. F, who told me personally, and then admitted on supertopo, that he's what we call a LIHOP in the 9/11 truth movement. that stands for "let it happen on purpose". there are LIHOPs and MIHOPs, the latter believing that they--whoever "they" made be--"made it happen on purpose". it doesn't take much to go from one to the other.
dirtbag

climber
Jan 11, 2013 - 10:26am PT
mmmm...IHOP...
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jan 11, 2013 - 10:41am PT
Griffin has no 'special' qualifications which sets him apart as any form of expert in policing, fire safety, aviation, engineering, construction, facilities management, communications, politics, intelligence, military, or anything else germane to the events. As Largo said, 'he went south' and in this regard, is just another truther attempting to make fantasy real.
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Jan 11, 2013 - 12:07pm PT
and what special qualifications do you have, healyje, other than the extraordinary ability to throw information out before taking a close look at it?
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jan 11, 2013 - 12:16pm PT
I have architecture, government, military, intelligence, construction, facilities, GIS, and communications experience and access to my father and brothers who now have about a hundred years in military jets and commercial airliners between them - more than enough to call bullshit on all the 911 conspiracies.
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Jan 11, 2013 - 12:54pm PT
my, my. dad and brothers. i can't argue with family, healyje, but i notice all you do is argue qualifications. you never argue facts. i think largo learned to do better than that from professors cobb and griffin.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Jan 11, 2013 - 01:32pm PT
Until then, it's fun to speculate, but it is probably a waste of time to get too involved in it also.

Indeed, and not just fun but I would argue important too. Tony doesn't strike me as a nutcase. And I've known plenty of real nutcases.

I sure don't personally agree with most of the grander conspiracy scenarios but in a way I'm glad somebody is taking a skewed look at things in ways my brain just can't.

I'll look at anything. I can appreciate all of the "conspiracy" data on 9/11 and chemtrail stuff. It's interesting to me how other people think. I can see some clear mental illness in some of those people rabidly supporting those ideas but not all of them. I suspect a lot of the times there's a grain or two of truth in those 'wacky' theories. I can't conceive of organized religion. I rank it with Santa. But I've learned a lot by studying religions too.

I would suspect some kind of mental dysfunction (or shall we say... diminished function) lies on both ends of the spectrum.

On one side there are people who are unable to think for themselves and cling forever to "experts" testimony and endless published stats without recognizing their are human motivations behind all of that 'hard science'.

On the other side there are those who can't accept facts even when they've proven it to themselves. And there certainly are clinically paranoid/psychotic people too.

Each extreme is easily recognized as resolute certainty in one's beliefs. Something we're all guilty of from time to time. As humans we find some solace in the 'certain' no matter how unrealistic that may be.

Believe whatever you want, but true ignorance comes from not listening or being open to new ideas. At the very least we owe each other respect.
moosedrool

Trad climber
lost, far away from Poland
Jan 11, 2013 - 01:45pm PT
Good points, Fear!
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Jan 11, 2013 - 02:25pm PT
As some of you are Al Bartlett fans, you might enjoy this denver post commentary:

http://blogs.denverpost.com/opinion/2013/01/08/dust-bowl-global-warming-sustainability/31901/

The physicist Freeman Dyson is said to have observed that, “Sanity is the ability to live within the laws of nature.” Tragically, insanity abounds, especially among the “well educated” leaders of Colorado.

Really, it's well educated leaders everywhere.
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Jan 12, 2013 - 10:32am PT
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Jan 12, 2013 - 10:36am PT
nice to see you up early too, monolith. whatever happened to your good friend graniteclimber? can it be that he's actually off on a road trip?
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Jan 12, 2013 - 10:43am PT
You sound a little whiny, Tony. Nice to see you starring in the 'ignorant' thread and resuming to your Tinfoil Tony role.
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Jan 12, 2013 - 10:46am PT
i guess you don't have an answer to my question. kinda makes you sound a little evasive.
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Jan 12, 2013 - 10:49am PT
I'm trying to drive you deeper into your paranoid delusions.

WBraun

climber
Jan 12, 2013 - 11:01am PT
Sanity is the ability to live within the laws of nature.

If you're insane then material nature forces you to live within it's eternal laws.

No one can escape her mortal laws, whether theist, atheist or any other definition or consciousness one wants to bond themselves to.

As we see the whole planet in general has veered far away from being in harmony with material nature and she is forcing us in so many myriad ways to come back.

The whole world has become insane in general .......


can't say

Social climber
Pasadena CA
Jan 12, 2013 - 11:11am PT
HFC you should be a wee bit more specific when it comes to names.
"As some of you are Al Bartlett fans" I had a senior moment there

that's Albert Bartlett, not Big Al (Alan) Bartlett;)
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Jan 12, 2013 - 11:13am PT
you have to give monolith credit for one thing--he's not suffering from the stalking paranoia that seemed to afflict graniteclimber. he actually posts his hometown on here, a place known for decent restaurants. however, i've noticed that the platzgeist of berkeley readily spills over the city limits, and people who basically are not happy keep insisting that they are.
WTF

climber
Jan 12, 2013 - 11:15am PT
The whole world has become insane in general .......



The words you speak are wise.
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Jan 12, 2013 - 11:16am PT
Hum, but is it really my home town.

Tony, I'll let you know where GC is, when he's a couple blocks from you. Vectoring in now.
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Jan 12, 2013 - 11:17am PT
looking forward to meeting the guy. he'll be tangling with my wife, who still has not forgiven him for posting her salary on here.
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