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Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Jan 9, 2013 - 09:54am PT
i think your problem is likewise the scientific "we", healyje. there really isn't anything more out there than individual people with individual understandings. sometimes they coincide remarkably, sometimes not, but the shortcomings of "scientific" knowledge leaves a lot of solid information off your radar.

there's a lot more than "sightings" involved. as an example, looking at that salla link to the recent russian documentary, they report an identical experience to what our nuclear weapons handlers once had in north dakota: the presence of a ufo shutting them down completely, and then the immediate response of higher-ups to hush-hush everything.

logical people can't accept such reliable testimonies as "anomalies". there are only two logical scenarios to be induced. either there is a far superior, secret human technology and interest which is perversely being hidden from the public, or there are nonhuman entities and their cultures involved.
dirtbag

climber
Jan 9, 2013 - 09:57am PT
You do realize that the "X-files" was fiction?
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Jan 9, 2013 - 10:01am PT
what you don't realize, dirtbag, is that writers for the x-files got their material not from their vivid imaginations--you will find very little vivid imagination in hollywood--but from "abductee" and "contactee" reports such as you will find from MUFON and elsewhere in the ufological community you like to decry as tin hats and flakes. the writers merely "fictionalize" what many others consider real--and present it in a way where it can be considered "entertainment". they've got a good thing going.

i don't mind adding that stephen spielberg fits right in with healyje's "name reporters" in this department. while the david ickes and david wilcocks of the world tell you about dastardly reptoids living beneath the earth, spielberg puts out two movies--super 8 and cowboys and aliens--which deal with naughty subterranean aliens.

yea, norton is all over the einstein question. seems like we were talking about all that a year ago. einstein had many people writing to him for some sort of pronouncement on divine and religious matters. i think he very gracefully told them they were barking up the wrong tree.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jan 9, 2013 - 10:05am PT
TB: ...there are only two logical scenarios to be induced. either there is a far superior, secret human technology and interest which is perversely being hidden from the public, or there are nonhuman entities and their cultures involved.

My point exactly. Someone or something absolutely has to be in overarching control of our existence or you and yours just wouldn't be able to sleep at night otherwise.
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Jan 9, 2013 - 10:11am PT
so--how do you "scientifically" explain those things, healyje?
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jan 9, 2013 - 10:19am PT
You don't. And that's because there is insufficient evidentiary data to support any conclusions beyond unsupportable conjecture.

Look, if you had access to and expended the vast resources required to realize any of this conjecture and could do it with impunity over a sixty year span, why wouldn't you just do it at 6 pm in Times Square, the Mall of your choice, or at Disneyland? And why would you do it utilizing an absolutely mind boggling array of vehicle types all with vastly differing performance capabilities? And how would you even know we were here to begin with given humans have only existed for the blink of a geological, let alone cosmological, eye and light and radio only move so fast?

It's ridiculous in every respect.
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Jan 9, 2013 - 10:21am PT
i'm afraid i'm not following that.

but, adding here--the evidentiary part is solid, and remarkably identical for the russians and ourselves--an apparent ufo hovering over an important nuclear weapons silo facility, total loss of control by the personnel involved, then everything comes back on--reports are made to higher-ups, and hush-hush-hush. in the case of the incident in the u.s.a., the retired military involved came forward years later in a press conference. in spite of their orders to shut the hell up, they felt there is an overriding public interest.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jan 9, 2013 - 10:25am PT
Read it again then. Bottom line is you only have greater (Hynek) or lesser (Klimmer) fictional conjecture rather than data and something broaching a basic common sense intent for repeated alien visitations.

Edit: "the evidentiary part is solid" - not. It is so unsolid as to be non-existent. There is zero, zip, nada physical, verifiable recorded evidence for any such events. None whatsoever.
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Jan 9, 2013 - 10:30am PT
so--these guys are making it all up?

reading again what you wrote up there, healyje, you seem to be saying two different things. the first is the "white house lawn" argument, which is a common theme in ufology. why don't they just land on the white house lawn?--kinda like in that old movie, the day the earth stood still.

but i still can't make sense of the second thing you seem to be saying: "how would you know we were here to begin with".
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jan 9, 2013 - 10:38am PT
It isn't a matter of "making this stuff up" - it's a matter of people's conjecture for events they can't explain and the group / social dynamics when more than one person is involved. Having had to fact check as part of my work in the past and having volunteered on a crisis intervention team I can tell you that journalists, psych counselors and lawyers don't take what folks think they saw, heard, and experienced at face value. It gets down to the concept of 'reliable witness'.

TB: but i still can't make sense of the second thing you seem to be saying: "how would you know we were here to begin with".

Light and radio waves only travel so fast. Even if an 'advanced civilization' had the means of traveling here (really?), how would they know to come here as opposed to anywhere else? Remember, it's a big univers and galaxy and we're nothing, nowhere, and only been around for a blink in that context. We really haven't been here long enough to advertise or broadcast our presence to any real distances let alone attract so much attention from so many of these 'advanced civilizations' that we've turned into a veritable Union Station for alien visitations (if one was to take the rate and kinds of UFO 'sightings' at face value as bonafide alien craft).
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Jan 9, 2013 - 11:01am PT
your explanation might work for a unique episode, healyje, but when a repetitive pattern emerges, you fight the tide.

you have to remember that allen hynek wasn't a scientific nobody. he was a high profile scientist brought aboard to "debunk". within two years, the air force had to try to debunk him, and did a very poor job of it. what hynek recognized was patterns in evidence. when those emerge, a good scientist ought to know that he's on a trail.

you seem to be assuming certain parameters which have fallen by the wayside over the past 20 years in astronomy. we've already picked out a number of prime candidates among our galactic neighbors. you're also far behind on the--admitted--speculations of advanced physics about three- and four-dimensional shortcuts, as well as the recent suggestion that the speed of light itself is a relative thing.

another very dangerous assumption is that an alien culture would be friendly--poor stephen hawking seems to have lost a little sleep worrying that it might not be--and that they don't know about us. i think that archaeological evidence has become overwhelming that "they" have known damn well about us all along.
rectorsquid

climber
Lake Tahoe
Jan 9, 2013 - 11:10am PT
47% of Americans believe in creationism

ig·no·rant
/ˈignərənt/
Adjective
Lacking knowledge or awareness in general; uneducated or unsophisticated.
Lacking knowledge, information, or awareness about something in particular: "ignorant of astronomy".

They are only ignorant if they do not know and understand the theories of evolution. That is, if you are suggesting that is the area of their ignorance. If they know all about something and choose to not accept it then maybe "ignorant" is not the best word for it.

I would agree that large numbers of people that believe in creationism don't know much about science but then there are probably a lot of atheists that are also ignorant in that same regard.

If you want to insult creationists, just use words like dumba$$, which is what you are thinking anyhow. Making the insult sound enlightened doesn't hide the intent.

Dave
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jan 9, 2013 - 11:25am PT
TB: your explanation might work for a unique episode, healyje, but when a repetitive pattern emerges, you fight the tide.

There is no "tide", just human nature and that covers all tides just fine.

TB: hynek recognized was patterns in evidence.

No, Hynek recognized patterns in the material and testimonies presented him, none of which rose to the level of 'evidence' which was exactly his problem as a scientist.

TB: you seem to be assuming certain parameters which have fallen by the wayside over the past 20 years in astronomy. we've already picked out a number of prime candidates among our galactic neighbors. you're also far behind on the--admitted--speculations of advanced physics about three- and four-dimensional shortcuts, as well as the recent suggestion that the speed of light itself is a relative thing.

Not at all, and we haven't picked out any "prime candidates (drama)" - why would you even use such verbiage? We're just at the 'is it a rock?' stage of the Kepler mission as opposed to the 'is there life?' stage. And as far as "speculations of advanced physics" goes - nothing about it constitutes or suggests practical applications for inter- or intra-galactic [time] travel at the moment.

TB: another very dangerous assumption is that an alien culture would be friendly--poor stephen hawking seems to have lost a little sleep worrying that they may not be--and that they don't know about us. i think that archaeological evidence has become overwhelming that "they" have known damn well about us all along.

"dangerous? Again with the drama. But Stephen's point get's to the heart of the matter as far as common sense motivations and intents for visiting the Earth - if you had the means. Why would you go to all the trouble, find us, and then just whirl about in the shadows? It's ludicrous. It would be like Europeans coming to the Americas and three hundred years later we're still a native society with myths and continual 'sightings' of creepy white folks and strange floating cities. Get real. Good or evil - no one's going to the trouble and expense of getting here to play hide-and-seek for sixty or six thousand years.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Jan 9, 2013 - 11:46am PT
Tony, please answer why, in this day and age where nearly everyone carries a high resolution camera system with geolocation and instant web uploads, that more "UFO" sightings are not reported?

In fact, there seem to be much less these days.

Please refrain from using the "world government conspiracy" to suppress the information, it is a ludicrous concept, even the most repressive governments have a great deal of trouble doing so in their own countries.

"Anyway, I have to argue about flying saucers on the beach with people, you know. And I was interested in this: they keep arguing that it is possible. And that's true. It is possible. They do not appreciate that the problem is not to demonstrate whether it's possible or not but whether it's going on or not."
Richard Feynman, The Meaning of It All : Thoughts of a Citizen Scientist (1998)
moosedrool

Trad climber
lost, far away from Poland
Jan 9, 2013 - 11:52am PT
Healyje, it is absolutely amazing how fast the technology of gene therapy is advancing. A year ago we thought that the zinc finger protein and TALON based techniques were revolutionary. Now we have Cas9, which could be as revolutionary as a transistor was in electronics. I wouldn’t be surprised if within 10 years gene therapy goes mainstream. The technology is already here and several clinical trials are under way including HIV. There is also a significant progress in the stem cells based therapeutics. Those two will transform the medicine as we know it.

At Bayer we created a gene delivery system, which was just a first step in gene therapy. Cutting out a defective gene and inserting another one is something else entirely. Thank you for posting those links!
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Jan 9, 2013 - 12:28pm PT
thing is, ed, they are reported and recorded and are all over the internet on ufo pages, where they are promptly attacked by "debunkers".

personally, i don't brook much with photographic evidence, which for good reason is not admissible in a court of law. photographs are easily hoaxed and doctored, even more so these days than in the past. other evidence far outstrips what's available photographically. if you know the first thing about the "phoenix lights", that's solid evidence. if you know the first thing about the spin-doctoring afterwards, you might start to get savvy about how these things are being handled. please don't put your term--"world government conspiracy"--into my mouth. the pattern which you ought to be seeing is obvious, public experience of unusual phenomena, and then an authoritarian full-court press to downplay it which never deals with the experience realistically.

we have picked out "prime candidates", healyje, and there's no drama involved. it seems every new issue of the astronomy journals tells us about newly discovered planets around nearby stars and how great they'd be for having life forms.
moosedrool

Trad climber
lost, far away from Poland
Jan 9, 2013 - 12:56pm PT
Tony B, to suppress the evidence of extraterrestrials interacting with humans on the scale you implied would involve cooperation of various different organizations and governments of different countries. We can’t even agree on how to deal with the US debt!

When multiple explanations exist, the simplest one is usually the correct one. Consulted by William of Ockham.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jan 9, 2013 - 01:01pm PT
TB: obvious, public experience of unusual phenomena, and then an authoritarian full-court press to downplay it which never deals with the experience realistically.

Dude, the heavily dramatic verbiage just gives you away over and over. First, there are no "authoritarians", simply people attempting to explain phenomena. The "experience" in the case of the 'Phoenix Lights' is irrelevant and unreliable. The squadron commander saying they ejected their spare flares on the other hand is verifiable both by the squadron pilots and by a flare inventory.

TB: we have picked out "prime candidates", healyje, and there's no drama involved. it seems every new issue of the astronomy journals tells us about newly discovered planets around nearby stars and how great they'd be for having life forms.

Again, the dramatic language is just killing you again and again. Astronomy journals simply point out that a percentage of the Kepler mission planets are in the 'habitable' zone, of a size roughly comparable to Earth, with a year length in the ballpark - all of which suggests, SUGGESTS, such planets are where we might best direct our resources in our search for life on other planets. None of that counts as "picked out prime candidates", but rather just common sense criteria for the kinds of planets worth further investigation.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jan 9, 2013 - 01:08pm PT
Hell, with all the resources available to modern science, they know that there's some sort of life on SuperTopo, but haven't a clue as to whether it's intelligent or not. And believe me, there's no conspiracy to hide any evidence.

There's no truth to claims that ST has been taken over by aliens based in an ark on a grassy knoll in area 51 on the Moon, and that they're using us as a proving ground for their cover-up tactics. And pay no attention to that chemtrail slackliner.
selfish man

Gym climber
Austin, TX
Jan 9, 2013 - 01:12pm PT
Feynman's Cargo Cult Science provides an accurate description of some of the opinions expressed here



http://www.lhup.edu/~DSIMANEK/cargocul.htm
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