America the Ignorant...on topic for this forum

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donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Topic Author's Original Post - Dec 29, 2012 - 06:41pm PT
Latest Gallup Poll shows that:
47% of Americans believe in creationism
32% believe in thiestic evolution.....now there is an interesting concept
and only 15% believe in evolution without divine intervention

Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Dec 29, 2012 - 06:43pm PT
huh? what about those that believe in both creation/evolution?

aint even represtin...
TrundleBum

Trad climber
Las Vegas
Dec 29, 2012 - 06:43pm PT

'N Jim:

Morbidly Obese = The new:
"I know I am somewhat over weight"
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Dec 29, 2012 - 06:44pm PT
That must be that 47% Romney was talking about!


prickle

Gym climber
globe,az
Dec 29, 2012 - 06:45pm PT
we are witnessing "devolution"
Ricky D

Trad climber
Sierra Westside
Dec 29, 2012 - 06:45pm PT
Talking monkeys with opposable thumbs.

Some are just dumber than others is all.

The real problem is that we as a species no longer kill the dumb ones off at birth.
John M

climber
Dec 29, 2012 - 06:46pm PT
My God.. this is suppose to be a climbers forum. You should be talking about climbing. Have you no respect?











just pulling your leg there Jim. :-)
TrundleBum

Trad climber
Las Vegas
Dec 29, 2012 - 06:48pm PT

Here let my man C. Smither explain 'The Origin of Species'...

Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Dec 29, 2012 - 06:49pm PT
My question is, if those believing in creation are ignorant, what do you call,, Budhists, Muslims, all those wonderfull peeps you speak of in your travels JD??
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 29, 2012 - 06:50pm PT
Tried the climbing stuff but it seemed off topic

80% of Europeans accept evolution
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Dec 29, 2012 - 06:51pm PT
Donini has finally snapped

FRUMY

Trad climber
SHERMAN OAKS,CA
Dec 29, 2012 - 06:53pm PT
It doesn't matter how many people think anything, Ignorance is Ignorance.
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Dec 29, 2012 - 06:54pm PT
It isn't like this stuff isn't taught in Universities.

There is ignorance and there is willful ignorance.

The former is understandable, but almost non-applicable to Americans.

The latter is unforgiveable, and applicable to most Americans. I bring this up on the religion vs. science thread, but it has become a Christian vs. Science thread since Largo got hurt.

Ignorance: Sadaam Hussein was harboring Al Qaida. Truth: This was totally false, as well as the yellowcake Uranium and every other lie that Colin Powell told the United Nations.

Ignorance: Mt. St. Helens released more CO2 than a hundred years worth of cars:

30 second google search will lead you to the United States Geological Survey which turns that statement to dirt. I'll even post it so the other willfully ignorant people will see it.

Truth:

Do the Earth’s volcanoes emit more CO2 than human activities? Research findings indicate that the answer to this frequently asked question is a clear and unequivocal, “No.” Human activities, responsible for a projected 35 billion metric tons (gigatons) of CO2 emissions in 2010 (Friedlingstein et al., 2010), release an amount of CO2 that dwarfs the annual CO2 emissions of all the world’s degassing subaerial and submarine volcanoes (Gerlach, 2011).

The published estimates of the global CO2 emission rate for all degassing subaerial (on land) and submarine volcanoes lie in a range from 0.13 gigaton to 0.44 gigaton per year (Gerlach, 1991; Varekamp et al., 1992; Allard, 1992; Sano and Williams, 1996; Marty and Tolstikhin, 1998). The preferred global estimates of the authors of these studies range from about 0.15 to 0.26 gigaton per year. The 35-gigaton projected anthropogenic CO2 emission for 2010 is about 80 to 270 times larger than the respective maximum and minimum annual global volcanic CO2 emission estimates. It is 135 times larger than the highest preferred global volcanic CO2 estimate of 0.26 gigaton per year (Marty and Tolstikhin, 1998).

In recent times, about 70 volcanoes are normally active each year on the Earth’s subaerial terrain. One of these is Kīlauea volcano in Hawaii, which has an annual baseline CO2 output of about 0.0031 gigatons per year [Gerlach et al., 2002]. It would take a huge addition of volcanoes to the subaerial landscape—the equivalent of an extra 11,200 Kīlauea volcanoes—to scale up the global volcanic CO2 emission rate to the anthropogenic CO2 emission rate. Similarly, scaling up the volcanic rate to the current anthropogenic rate by adding more submarine volcanoes would require an addition of about 360 more mid-ocean ridge systems to the sea floor, based on mid-ocean ridge CO2 estimates of Marty and Tolstikhin (1998).

There continues to be efforts to reduce uncertainties and improve estimates of present-day global volcanic CO2 emissions, but there is little doubt among volcanic gas scientists that the anthropogenic CO2 emissions dwarf global volcanic CO2 emissions.

Ten minutes from now this will be forgotten. Too many big words or something.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Dec 29, 2012 - 06:54pm PT
i certainly accept hard factual evidence of evolving. I also know even my ancient tribe members believed. Similar to Far Eastern beliefs actually in many ways. That and observance of things lets me know there is something beyond, that we cant see, or explain. So i simply made sense from the two. Simple really, and all are satisfied. Meeting in the middle as it were.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 29, 2012 - 06:54pm PT
Ron, 82% of Buddhists believe in evolution, along with 45% of Muslims
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Dec 29, 2012 - 06:59pm PT
There is ignorance and there is willful ignorance.


Base shoots ..... He scores!!!!!!!!!
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Dec 29, 2012 - 07:02pm PT
It's a really strange dichotomy. For much of twentieth century, the US led the world in science. Young people from everywhere else lined up to get into US universities because that was where the best science was.

And yet, somehow, at the same time, the US also led the first world in ignorance. It's almost as if there are two entirely separate USAs that have somehow become mixed up in this universe.

Most of you on this forum have lived your entire lives in the US, and can have no idea what it is like to come to your country from pretty much any other first-world country. How does someone who is surrounded by -- whose entire life is based on -- the wonders of science believe that a supernatural magic being created the world in seven days? Or any of the other crazy sh#t?

How can they turn on a light switch and still believe what they believe?
wilbeer

Mountain climber
honeoye falls,ny.greeneck alleghenys
Dec 29, 2012 - 07:04pm PT
two seperate usa's, .....wow this just in. bruce kay,you play hockey?
Ricky D

Trad climber
Sierra Westside
Dec 29, 2012 - 07:06pm PT
My God.. this is suppose to be a climbers forum. You should be talking about climbing. Have you no respect?


Hey bub - I f'ing mentioned monkeys and thumbs - if that ain't climbing related what is.
go-B

climber
Hebrews 1:3
Dec 29, 2012 - 07:09pm PT
Where do you stand Jim?
Malemute

Ice climber
the ghost
Dec 29, 2012 - 07:11pm PT
And yet, somehow, at the same time, the US also led the first world in ignorance. It's almost as if there are two entirely separate USAs that have somehow become mixed up in this universe.
kennyt

climber
Woodfords,California
Dec 29, 2012 - 07:15pm PT
I wonder if people will be as aggressive in defending their God as they are about their guns?
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Dec 29, 2012 - 07:17pm PT
i always DUG Farah Fawcett...
moosedrool

Trad climber
lost, far away from Poland
Dec 29, 2012 - 07:20pm PT
Almost all of may American friends are from coastal California. Maybe that's why I have met just a few questioning evolution. When I read those statistics showing that almost half of the US population is very poorly educated, it is just hard to believe. Even if those people have not been educated at schools, there is TV and internet. Who keeps those people in the dark? FOX news?
There are two different Americas in this country. They speak the same language but they can't understand each other. Very sad.

Edit: It took me too long to write it. It looks like others had the same observations.
The Warbler

climber
the edge of America
Dec 29, 2012 - 07:20pm PT
People who believe in creationism are perfectly gullible victims for republican lies.

American culture ridicules the intellectual with a mindset born of a combination of poor education and religious dogma.

This is why dubya got elected twice, and why the US is on the fast track to third world status
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Dec 29, 2012 - 07:24pm PT
bruce kay,you play hockey?


amazingly enough, no I don't. I can hardly skate but I played road hockey fanatically as a kid and was a Habs fan when the Habs were battling Don Cherry's Bruins -- its as thick in our culture as god is in some others.

I sure as hell don't think it makes the world go round though.

I really think what Base said needs repeating. Ignorance is a forgivable condition. Willful ignorance is damn near criminal.
toadgas

Trad climber
los angeles
Dec 29, 2012 - 07:29pm PT
-


why are you complaining about willfully ignorant Americans?


the Statue of Liberty invites the unwashed masses to immigrate here...



"unwashed masses" often translates to people with LOW IQs



a large population of dumb people is simply part of the AMERICAN experience


-




edit: vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv
Ricky D

Trad climber
Sierra Westside
Dec 29, 2012 - 07:36pm PT
Hey now - don't be dissing TV - bringing this pablum to the masses is what pays my bills these days.

I am amazed in how much TV fills the lives of the average Joe American these days. Rich or poor, one TV or 20 (including the bathroom) - my customers freak the f out if they are down for even 24 hours.

From the jock sniffing sports fanatics to the news junkies - all are plugged in but few if any have an original thought left in their shrunken heads.

Ignorance is not simply stupidity - it really involves the lack of the ability to construct your own logic in the face of falsity.

Spider Savage

Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
Dec 29, 2012 - 07:38pm PT
If we're so dumb how come we're all rich?
Timid TopRope

Social climber
'used to be Paradise, CA
Dec 29, 2012 - 07:39pm PT
Jim,

After spending way too much time reading this forum, nothing surprises me. There are people in this ST microcosm that believe in ghosts, bigfoot, imaginary friends, illiminati, WTC conspiracies, guns making us safer, space aliens, human pollution not affecting climate change, etc. I guess being rational and science-based in the USA is a lonely road to travel.

Seems unlikely for humans to change their beliefs from what I've experienced in life. An age of enlightenment in the USA is probably two or three generations away.
WBraun

climber
Dec 29, 2012 - 07:39pm PT
Americans are puffed up as#@&%es who all think they're smart because they have some rubber stamped degree from some school.

Then you hand them a screw driver or shovel and tell em to do something they stand there looking stupid.

Instead they have to tweet some fool about what some stupid celebrity is doing.

Nothing gets done since they spend all the money wasting time thinking and speculating about what to do for months and years never doing it.

WE are so smart they say and we do nothing.

Give the job to the uneducated they say since we are so smart.

Stupid Americans.
moosedrool

Trad climber
lost, far away from Poland
Dec 29, 2012 - 07:39pm PT
Toadgas, I don't know the statistics, but it looks to me like most legal immigrants are quite educated. What's your source?
Spider Savage

Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
Dec 29, 2012 - 07:41pm PT
Creationism? Evolution? Creation of evolution?


Come on everyone know its really....
BELIEVE!
BELIEVE!
Credit: Alien Workshop
kennyt

climber
Woodfords,California
Dec 29, 2012 - 07:41pm PT
Give the job to the uneducated they say since we are so smart.

I know that guy. lol
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Dec 29, 2012 - 07:42pm PT
Thats totally not true Toadgas, and it ilustrates the point anyway. Ignorance is something we all suffer from, some less or some more maybe and sure the lower you are in socio economic status the more ignorant but that is not a sin - it is simply an environmental condition.

Willful ignorance is something completely different. That is where you choose it, despite opportunity for knowledge. That is most certainly a sin.

blind allegience to ideology is the gateway drug to the heroin of willful ignorance.
toadgas

Trad climber
los angeles
Dec 29, 2012 - 07:44pm PT
Toadgas, I don't know the statistics, but it looks to me like most legal immigrants are quite educated. What's your source?


i was referring to immigrants more from the mid-to-late 1800s


should have specified




also...."unwashed masses"....if you cannot figure out how to wash, how smart can you be?


hehe


.
moosedrool

Trad climber
lost, far away from Poland
Dec 29, 2012 - 07:46pm PT
true, Toadgas
toadgas

Trad climber
los angeles
Dec 29, 2012 - 07:47pm PT
don't worry, I'm not picking on the liberals' precious illegal immigrants


but a LARGE nation of immigrants is gonna be a large grab bag ...including a fair amount of willfully ignorant types


why do europeans think Americans are so dumb?


simply because we have been brainwashed by the GOP?


-
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 29, 2012 - 07:49pm PT
Nearly all of the recent winners of the National Spelling Bee have been non caucasion second generation immigrants.
Donald Thompson

Trad climber
Los Angeles,CA
Dec 29, 2012 - 07:50pm PT
THis thread is worded to reflect the bigotry of the current crop of bloviating baby boomer leftists, who equate belief in God , or for that matter any belief counter to thier own, as de facto "ignorant". This is fully representative of the bigotry and arrogance of the radical left in their never ending project, on-going since the 60s, to transform this nation into their own self-image.

Folks, only they know what the ultimate truth consists of, and they will tolerate no other opinions. All assertions about the nature of the universe is secondary to their own, because they are so smart, so hip, so today, and so 'now'.









Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Dec 29, 2012 - 07:51pm PT
Not exactly surprising JD,, have you been behind a school bus lately?
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Dec 29, 2012 - 07:54pm PT
I will say that the higher one is up the ladder of socio-economic success, the greater the responsibility to avoid willful ignorance.

With that in mind I personally think that the entire lineup of Republican presidential candidates are going straight through the gates of Hell with no hesitation, with the possible exception of John Huntsman and we all know what happened to him here on earth.

ah Donald! Glad you could join us. We were just talking about you
toadgas

Trad climber
los angeles
Dec 29, 2012 - 07:54pm PT
Nearly all of the recent winners of the National Spelling Bee have been non caucasion second generation immigrants


like I said....I was referring to immigrants from the 1800s, not second gen. immigrants


but...let's be honest, what JD is referring to are DUMB WHITE TRASH, HEARTLAND OR SOUTHERN IGNORANT CAUCASIAN HICKS BIBLE THUMPIN YAHOOS



mostly, of irish/scots/german/french/scandinavian extraction who in recent decades have embraced fundamentalist christianity


-
wilbeer

Mountain climber
honeoye falls,ny.greeneck alleghenys
Dec 29, 2012 - 07:55pm PT
bruce ,cool,its thick where i live to,i went to don cherrys hockey school.40+ years of hockey .....and werner,some people have a piece of paper they worked for AND have been tradesmen for over 30 years.....
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 29, 2012 - 08:01pm PT
Bruce, Huntsman was the best candidate they had but the Tea Party nixed him.
Hey, I'm going to have my prostate cancer treated at the center his father established in SLC- wonderful place!
The Warbler

climber
the edge of America
Dec 29, 2012 - 08:01pm PT
The immigrants I know are often very intelligent and motivated. Leaving your homeland and finding your way to America calls for a certain level of drive and willingness to work hard and suffer that is sorely missing in modern American society.

AP

Trad climber
Calgary
Dec 29, 2012 - 08:01pm PT
You can't compare the top 1% (who understand science, win Nobel prizes, go to MIT, Stanford, Caltech, etc, or who are great tech innovators) with the 99% who have no clue. For every Steve Jobs there are a lot of Homer Simpsons. The best few % of anything in the US is the tops in the world but the rest of the country is mediocre at best.
Canada is not much better except we are not as religious.
harryhotdog

Social climber
north vancouver, B.C.
Dec 29, 2012 - 08:10pm PT
Get with the times, it's not creationism anymore it's
Intelligent Design . Creationism is certainly not based on science nor does it sound scientific but intelligent design sure does so it must be more credible now. Next they will probably call it I-design to convert all the apple users in America.
I'm curious how the christian universities deal with the intelligent design vs evolution conflict. I assume they just bury their head in the sand like they have for the last 800 years, ask Galileo.
The Warbler

climber
the edge of America
Dec 29, 2012 - 08:17pm PT
Spelling Bees don't involve reasoning.

Maybe not for the audience....
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Dec 29, 2012 - 08:20pm PT
next to the boobs thread, this one is one of the best yet and just getting started
Ricky D

Trad climber
Sierra Westside
Dec 29, 2012 - 08:22pm PT
I just wonder how the hell the generation that so embraced "enlightenment" ended up defining that concept as meaning 15,000 watts of custom lighting in their private vineyard estate home with built in sauna and 25 big screen TVs with integrated Internet access.

True - all of their construction workers were certified organic Vegans who drove Bio-diesel pickups - so I guess it's cool in the end.
Riley Wyna

Trad climber
A crack near you
Dec 29, 2012 - 08:30pm PT
. Spelling Bees don't involve reasoning. Can the same kids crank out an analytical essay without consulting wiki or spark notes? Riddle me that Batman.

I don't know what is worse - thinking that winning a national spelling bee doesn't involve reasoning abilities...or using the term " Riddle me that Batman"
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Dec 29, 2012 - 08:32pm PT
I just finished a contract with a really big oil company, in the geoscience division. About a quarter of them were foreign, and very smart.

Other countries really want to improve math and science education because that is where the future is headed. Even muslim countries put regular ads in the oil publications looking for good geoscientists. You are quite free to believe in the geologic time scale.

donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 29, 2012 - 08:36pm PT
I am a great fan of the geologic time scale, it doesn't make me feel quite so old.
Jim Clipper

climber
from: forests to tree farms
Dec 29, 2012 - 08:41pm PT
Cool thread! Just want to say thanks for a country that can incubate an original like Jim D. Maybe it's borders were a bit too confining considering the climbing to get done. Hope the treatments go well.

edit:

in case you feel old:

Credit: Jim Clipper

I posted this on another thread, but thought it deserved more coverage. It belongs on a climbing shirt, or on the cover of a training book.
TWP

Trad climber
Mancos, CO
Dec 29, 2012 - 08:41pm PT
American has no monopoly on ignorance. What nation is any less ignorant? How would we know?

On a personal level, who has any reason to be so proud of their own knowledge/lack of ignorance? I've never met a single person (myself included) who isn't pathetically inadequate/ignorant about entire spheres of human knowledge, experience and existence.

I suggest a lot of compassion and humility about human ignorance, including our own, is well in order. Smug confidence with one's own state of knowledge and state of grace, so rife amongst all humans, is just hubris and hot air.
Peter Haan

Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
Dec 29, 2012 - 08:44pm PT
A list of books in the last four years by Chris Mooney, the prolific and highly regarded science writer.

The Republican Brain: The Science of Why They Deny Science- and Reality

The Republican War on Science

Unscientific America: How Scientific Illiteracy Threatens our Future

Storm World: Hurricanes, Politics, and the Battle Over Global Warming

http://www.amazon.com/Chris-Mooney/e/B001IU4QGA

Amazon link: http://www.amazon.com/Chris-Mooney/e/B001IU4QGA


and while we are on the subject of USA population, don't miss this incredible dotmap of every person in the US:

http://bmander.com/dotmap/index.html
Jim Clipper

climber
from: forests to tree farms
Dec 29, 2012 - 09:18pm PT
"Once more unto the breach, dear friends, once more;
Or close the wall up with our English dead.
In peace there's nothing so becomes a man
As modest stillness and humility:
But when the blast of war blows in our ears,
Then imitate the action of the tiger;
Stiffen the sinews, summon up the blood,
Disguise fair nature with hard-favour'd rage;
Then lend the eye a terrible aspect;
Let pry through the portage of the head
Like the brass cannon; let the brow o'erwhelm it
As fearfully as doth a galled rock
O'erhang and jutty his confounded base,
Swill'd with the wild and wasteful ocean.
Now set the teeth and stretch the nostril wide,
Hold hard the breath and bend up every spirit
To his full height..."

Maybe a little hyperbole, but probably not quite that much. Best wishes...
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Dec 29, 2012 - 09:24pm PT
I think there is two things worthy of comment so far:


Sure America dosn't have a monopoly but for decades or more the whole world has been told that America is the leader of the free world and represents the hieght of all civilized advancement.
This has been very true but it has for the past decade or so become increasingly doubtful that this is deserved. This is very unfortunate as power vacumes will be filled with something else, maybe something much worse. There is a profound loss of moral faith in America right now and it has to do almost entirely with demonstrated willful ignorance. For al those who wonder why myself and other damn uppity foreigners express our opinions here it is for this reason.

.let's be honest, what JD is referring to are DUMB WHITE TRASH, HEARTLAND OR SOUTHERN IGNORANT CAUCASIAN HICKS BIBLE THUMPIN YAHOOS


I can't speak for JD but I can only restate my opinion on this - Generally speaking, the lower down the sh#t pile the less willful the ignorance, thus the less guilty of sin. Anybody in the middle class and up sure dosn't get a total pass however. Instead of flipping on hate thumping propagandists for your diet of knowledge there are many other options, and even a pea brain is still a brain. The most basic tool for sifting away garbage is logic. everything, including morality must pass logical analysis.

Ideally, blind dumb allegience to Dogma should be marched in front of a firing squad and shot.

Unfortunately that dosn't work too well for tribal hierarchy, where blind dumb allegiance to dogma is a virtue. Authoritarianism loves stupidity and I'm sure there is a link with how america has evolved recently, most notably in the republican party.
WBraun

climber
Dec 29, 2012 - 09:36pm PT
Ideally, blind dumb allegiance to Dogma should be marched in front of a firing squad and shot.

That would be 99 percent or even more of the world population ......

MH2

climber
Dec 29, 2012 - 09:43pm PT
Now that you mention it, he does seem to be watching TV.


Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Dec 29, 2012 - 09:49pm PT
Hey werner, you should work at Fox News - you'd fit right in.

Ya know, perhaps even you have a certain allegience to dogma huh? Well don't sweat it. We all do for the most part. Its the blind and dumb part that is the problem.

Anyway, you quoted me out of context, just like your buddies at fox. As I said, dogma becomes the tool of authority, again no huge problem unless us shmoes are either too ignorant or are actually willfuly ignorant of our duty to challenge it on terms of reason and morality. Authority is cool if its deserved and earned, and the only way to know that is challenge it.
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
Dec 29, 2012 - 10:07pm PT
This is like shooting kneecaps on a ski trip:

Are you insinuating someone's Karma ran over their dogma ?
zBrown

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Dec 29, 2012 - 10:09pm PT
Latest Gallup Poll shows that:

Sorry Mr. Donini (still can't bring myself to call you Jim), I do not believe in the Gallup Poll.

Michelle

Trad climber
Toshi's Station, picking up power converters.
Dec 29, 2012 - 10:09pm PT
I self learned myself.

(humorous interlude)





I suppose the older I get, the more interested I am in living in the moment. kinda zen. the rest, I really just don't know about. doesn't really seem to affect me either way in the long run.

Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Dec 29, 2012 - 10:10pm PT
I can only hope they gave you lots of lovely dogma at the hostpital.... er, I mean morphine!
mojede

Trad climber
Butte, America
Dec 29, 2012 - 10:11pm PT
Evolution works perfectly well--under the assumption of a few key "miracles" thrown into the biologic mix...





...should make BOTH sides content--but, usually doesn't
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
Dec 29, 2012 - 10:34pm PT
Canada's got ig'nance you can't touch:

toadgas

Trad climber
los angeles
Dec 29, 2012 - 10:43pm PT
-


america has always been defined by personal freedom, populism, and religion


so, unlike the Europeans...most Americans are not cowed by or are downright suspicious of or even defiant toward ...powerhouse intellectuals, the cultural elite, and those pesky scientific brainiacs


and so ...many, many Americans are not the least bit ashamed of their devotion toward outlandish nonsense: conspiracy theories, medical quackery, pseudo science, fringe politics, hippie utopianism, crass pop culture and mindless consumerism, xenophobia, fad diets, bizarre "lifestyles" that center around gun fanaticism, fundamentalist religion, etc etc etc



America--we rock!

.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Dec 29, 2012 - 11:15pm PT
Belief in evolution



Third world, baby, third world...
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Reno, Nuh VAAAA duh
Dec 30, 2012 - 12:19am PT
I don't get all the negative spins on this. Not believing in evolution is really quite the astute observation on the part of a citizenry whose country invented Walmart. Bravo, America, you have seen no evidence of evolution, and you're not afraid to say it.
Wayno

Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
Dec 30, 2012 - 12:22am PT
What a bunch of whiners. These are surely strange times, but does the bickering really matter? Get on with getting on. And along.
TrundleBum

Trad climber
Las Vegas
Dec 30, 2012 - 01:19am PT

'Ah Wayno...

Just 'ole 'Uncle Jimbo stirr'n up another shiite storm on the Taco.

Gott'a admit though whenever he lights a fire he's more than willing to stick around and stand in the heat ;)
cuvvy

Sport climber
arkansas
Dec 30, 2012 - 02:08am PT
80 % of Europeans believe in creationism? That seems darn high. Really, if you ask yourself did we come from an explosion of epic proportions(having started from a mass the size of a pin head) or with the help of some mighty intervention, they both tweak the brain. 30 seconds of serious pondering and my noodle starts twisting.
I still think there was an intervention, myself. But, maybe its the southern country backasswards in me.
Riley Wyna

Trad climber
A crack near you
Dec 30, 2012 - 02:17am PT
But, maybe its the southern country backasswards in me.

You have the graph backasswards also.
80 percent of Europeans believe in Evolution - not creationism
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Dec 30, 2012 - 02:19am PT
80 percent of Americans think Adam and Eve shopped at Walmart.
Riley Wyna

Trad climber
A crack near you
Dec 30, 2012 - 02:23am PT
http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/lets-just-say-it-the-republicans-are-the-problem/2012/04/27/gIQAxCVUlT_story.html


The GOP has become an insurgent outlier in American politics. It is ideologically extreme; scornful of compromise; unmoved by conventional understanding of facts, evidence and science; and dismissive of the legitimacy of its political opposition.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Dec 30, 2012 - 02:34am PT
Hey werner, you should work at Fox News - you'd fit right in.

Ya know, perhaps even you have a certain allegience to dogma huh? Well don't sweat it. We all do for the most part. Its the blind and dumb part that is the problem.

You said dogma people should be put to the firing squad. Werner said that would be about 99% of hmanity. You responded with the above, agreeing with him.

Any questions Mr Fox News?

DMT
QITNL

climber
Dec 30, 2012 - 04:14am PT
You guys are confusing America with Americans.

America is geography, it's just a whole bunch of land. America is fairly static, neither smart nor dumb.

Americans are changing faster than you think, all the time.
toadgas

Trad climber
los angeles
Dec 30, 2012 - 04:21am PT
^^^^^^^^

how can america be both fairly static and "changing" fast at the same time?




is donini one of these little green men you speak of?



-
hb81

climber
Dec 30, 2012 - 05:08am PT
I think the world population in general is getting dumber by the day, the main reason being that nothing but worthless thrash is being fed to them 24/7 by TV and Internet.
Mix that with religious nuts and you get people that believe that Jesus and AK-47s will save them from all that is bad.

Now the sad thing is that these people are always the one who scream the loudest and make their fkin retarded ideas heard while the smart and educated sit quietly in the back and bow their heads in shame.

I for myself have resigned caring about this stuff all that much because there is nothing that I could do about it anyway. I just try to have a positive effect on the people in my life, thats all I can do to improve this f*#ked up world.

Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Dec 30, 2012 - 05:31am PT
why, jim, an off-topic post. maybe the world is going to end soon.

oops--sorry--i forgot--dingus's tractors are on topic too.
toadgas

Trad climber
los angeles
Dec 30, 2012 - 05:40am PT
-


sweet, blissful ignorance...


introducing....The Wild Man of Borneo


vvv


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kSEY9WBDErI


-
Norwegian

Trad climber
Placerville, California
Dec 30, 2012 - 06:09am PT
i got a 'un o' those stupid f*#king rubber stamps, i do.
"when you find yourself on the side of the majority, <br/>
it is time to p...
"when you find yourself on the side of the majority,
it is time to pause and reflect" - mark twain
Credit: Norwegian

i can drive a screwdriver,
if hard pressed.

i don't deny that im a dumb c#&%.
this stance of anti-arrogance has served
well my aim to learn forever, and then re-learn never.

my suits are never pressed.
my socks rarely match.
thugh
i own whatever i want to own,
if im patient enough to await god's orgasm.
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Dec 30, 2012 - 06:40am PT
norsky, you're an engineer! that means you can drive a choo-choo! fun job!

oops, drifting the thread here.

back on topic to our off-topic. maybe there'll be a climbing angle somehow, there always seems to be. like--do you believe that climbers evolve, and does it involve divine intervention?
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Dec 30, 2012 - 07:57am PT
Dingus:

Dogma
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Dogma is the official system of belief or doctrine held by a religion, or a particular group or organization.[1] It serves as part of the primary basis of an ideology or belief system, and it cannot be changed or discarded without affecting the very system's paradigm, or the ideology itself. Although it generally refers to religious beliefs that are accepted regardless of evidence, they can refer to acceptable opinions of philosophers or philosophical schools, public decrees, or issued decisions of political authorities.[2]
The term derives from Greek δόγμα "that which seems to one, opinion or belief"[3] and that from δοκέω (dokeo), "to think, to suppose, to imagine".[4] Dogma came to signify laws or ordinances adjudged and imposed upon others by the First Century. The plural is either dogmas or dogmata, from Greek δόγματα. The term "dogmatics" is used as a synonym for systematic theology, as in Karl Barth's defining textbook of neo-orthodoxy, the 14-volume Church Dogmatics.


Like I said, dogma isn't the problem. Dogma makes our world go round. Look at it this way, us climbers subscribe to various dogmas -alpine style, ground up, etc.... it is the blind dumb part that needs to be shot in the head.

This is the single most significant beef i have with religions. Intransigent blind dumb dogma incapable of evolution without a gun held to its temple. If it wasn't for that I might even jump on board as for the most part religious types are A -OK and for all I know god really did invent the world. I merely request that they show me the money first. This faith stuff is for suckers.

edit: after rereading the above maybe you have apoint in that dogma is my its very definition is intransigent in the face of all opposition -blind, dumb faith.

Anyway, true much of the world is held spellbound by various dogmas, but I really think Werners assertion of 99% is a bit of an exageration. Perhaps I have a bit too much "faith" in humanity but I really think if people ever find themselves free of authoritarian oppression their minds are the first thing to expand . I think this goes for America as much as anywhere. Sometimes the oppression is nothing more than the physical need to fall in lock step with your neighbors if you really want to continue working in this town. Demanded conformity and uniformity are red flags.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Dec 30, 2012 - 08:17am PT
Religion and superstition have nothing to do with it.



YONHAP/EPA - Holding candles, South Korean parents queue to enter Bongeun Temple in the southern area of Seoul, South Korea, on Nov. 3, 2012, to ask for their children to achieve high results on the nationwide college entrance exam.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/in-s-korea-the-best-education-means-a-sacrifice-for-parents/2012/11/05/6adb0564-256f-11e2-9313-3c7f59038d93_story.html


Parent's attitudes, intransigent teachers unions and the idiocaracies that pass themselves off as departments of education at the college level are the problem.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Dec 30, 2012 - 08:38am PT
was up early this am,, went outside in the COLD fresh air- as the most gentle snow was falling..I looked around at the gorgeous white carpet of fresh snow- spotting tracks that came from a grey fox that had been cruising the hood last night. Those tiny lil footprints in the snow suggested to me, that there IS something beyond our knowledge. Who could invent such a little critter as that fox, with its dainty toes and heels tracking through the snow? He is my friend that fox. We exist in a symbiotic way- i have scraps and he likes scraps and together we go through life.

Surely on such a morning of tranquility there are better and bigger powers at work.. I simply cant point a finger to the actual.
TwistedCrank

climber
Dingleberry Gulch, Ideeho
Dec 30, 2012 - 08:43am PT
There's a god? WTF. Nobody said nuthin 'bout no god.
eeyonkee

Trad climber
Golden, CO
Dec 30, 2012 - 08:45am PT
I do wonder if anybody has ever changed their minds about belief in evolution/natural selection as a result of reading these threads. As someone who occasionally contributes to them, I've gone from thinking that with just a little additional evidence that the (wayward) reader might not be aware of, minds could be changed. Now, I don't think so. Having said that, 15% belief rate is darn right scary.
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Dec 30, 2012 - 08:54am PT
Front row seats at the freak show

climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Dec 30, 2012 - 08:58am PT
I don't see any conflict between my religious choices and my love of science. Both are an attempt at understanding the world each allows me to look at the world from a different viewpoint and think different ways. Science establishes facts with a near certainty, discovers patterns that can be relied on when venturing into the future. lays the foundation for technologies and tools.

My religion allows me to thrive more in the human condition and gives me an eternal outlook on life. Hope, Faith, optimism, compassion and truth. It is not threatened by any fact. It threatens no facts.

If there is a conflict between either viewpoint towards the other it is just an indicator that ones understanding is therefore wrong and there is something more to learn. As always.

To pretend to know that either of these two areas have no validity seems foolish from either side of the argument.

I find it incredibly frustrating that a significant portion of the population is still arguing about global warming and not working on what to do about it.

Clearly the greatest threat our species faces is population growth but NO-ONE is seriously tackling this issue except perhaps China.

Evolution? Pathetic to see this long settled fact still argued. Fortunately it is not a science with applications that most folks have to work with in any meaningful manner. However there are some fields where it has critical and very technical precise application.

Ignorance? I'd say the ratio of knowledge to lack of knowledge among the best would still be pathetic if rendered in decimal form.. Hmm how may zero's after that decimal point do you figure? Lots I'd say.
-------

EDIT
To the OP. A couple of times lately you have mentioned a serious issue you are facing. Best luck with it in SLC. There is a lot of love for you here on the Taco.
moosedrool

Trad climber
lost, far away from Poland
Dec 30, 2012 - 09:10am PT
Jingy, very good! Sometimes I feel that way too. Which is actually quite sad. Is there no hope? Just give up an enjoy the show? I am getting old and have much less desire to fight. Just enjoy the rest of my days. I feel guilty, though, that I haven't done enough to make this world better for my children...
jstan

climber
Dec 30, 2012 - 09:50am PT
Recently encountered an analysis suggesting americans tell their kids they are "smart" while asians ask their kids how hard they are working. There is a world of difference between the two. You have to wonder if this is not also the source of american worship of celebrity. Smart leads directly to asking who is the smartest, best or most famous. (Only a small step from there to talking about who has the biggest boobs.)

No one asks who is working the hardest. We think we can quantify the former but not the latter. So off we go trying to be the best.

Trying to be better today than you were yesterday, is however something one can in some sense get a feeling for. Trouble is that approach puts great value on "work".

"Smart" kids are a dime a dozen. Kids who are working their asses off, are harder to find.

We all have whatever it is we have. There is no expression of self in it. But there is satisfaction from knowing that you have done as much as you could with whatever it was you were given.

Then the self is coming into play.
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Dec 30, 2012 - 09:53am PT
Nobody here really knows whats going on.
moosedrool

Trad climber
lost, far away from Poland
Dec 30, 2012 - 09:56am PT
Jstan +1
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Dec 30, 2012 - 10:04am PT
Here...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ekc2Nn03IVM#!

.....

re: beliefs

Now tell me if this doesn't hit the nail on the head.

"A broader danger of unverifiable beliefs is the temptation to defend them by violent means. People become wedded to their beliefs, because the validity of those beliefs reflects on their competence, commends them as authorities, and rationalizes their mandate to lead. Challenge a person’s beliefs, and you challenge his dignity, standing, and power. And when those beliefs are based on nothing but faith, they are chronically fragile. No one gets upset about the belief that rocks fall down as opposed to up, because all sane people can see it with their own eyes. Not so for the belief that babies are born with original sin or that God exists in three persons.... When people organize their lives around these beliefs, and then learn of other people who seem to be doing just fine without them—or worse, who credibly rebut them—they are in danger of looking like fools. Since one cannot defend a belief based on faith by persuading skeptics it is true, the faithful are apt to react to unbelief with rage, and may try to eliminate that affront to everything that makes their lives meaningful."

Steven Pinker
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Dec 30, 2012 - 10:07am PT
Choosing my battles carefully, meaning the worthy ones...

Ron, 82% of Buddhists believe in evolution, along with 45% of Muslims

Citation?

Must be a highly select group, lol! Michigan USA Muslims, perhaps?

.....

As a person of faith, I am also a student of science. I have no problem with the concept of God or evolution. I do find it hard to understand and merge the two concepts...

Is this not something of a contradiction?

Regarding reality and truth: Either God (Jehovah) mated with a human virgin or He did not. Either the historical Jesus was God Jesus or he wasn't. Either he rose from the dead on the 3rd day or he did not.

These are the claims (the truth-claims) made 1,000 plus years ago. Knowing what you know about humans, human nature, human functioning; among all else, how they cheat, lie, thieve and wheedle, you really think in this day and age of science, education and the internet it is reasonable - repeat: reasonable - as an intellectually honest, civically responsible person to support these claims as historical truth? Maybe take this as a rhetorical question, and I'll just enjoy the show. ;)
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Dec 30, 2012 - 10:11am PT
Moose -
I feel guilty, though, that I haven't done enough to make this world better for my children...


 That whole "leave it better than you found it" idea….. It's a myth. In order for one to take responsibility for the world being better would require billions of much healthier, stronger, smarter 'mes' or 'yous'.. I'm afraid if it were the case that there were billions of Jingys out there this world would not be much better than it is now with the exception of there being less obstruction in congress.

High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Dec 30, 2012 - 10:29am PT
Look at this picture...

photo not found
Missing photo ID#281264

and tell me times aren't changing... that cultural evolution isn't advancing at a frenzy. (Taking into account that this scene takes place in thousands of college classrooms nowadays around the world; and year after year after year.)


It's just that a watched pot never boils.

Keep the trust (not a blind trust but an evidence based trust).

Thank goodness for young people who aren't afraid to consider things anew.

.....


45% of Muslims in Afghanistan and Pakistan are evolutionists.
45% of Muslims in Iran are evolutionists.
45% of Muslims in Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Oman are evolutionists.
45% of Muslims in Algeria, Tunisia, Lybia are evolutionists.

I don't think so.

Meanwhile, Islamic justice in Mali...
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/28/world/africa/islamists-harsh-justice-on-rise-in-northern-mali.html?hp&_r=1&

“He stole nine times,” he said of his brother. “He’s my own brother. God told us to do it. God created my brother. God created me. You must read the Koran to see that what I say is true. This is in the Koran. That’s why we do it.”

Parochial fundamentalists, in Islam, they are. Not evolutionists.
Cosmiccragsman

Trad climber
AKA Dwain, from Apple Valley, Ca. and Vegas!
Dec 30, 2012 - 10:37am PT

"Ideally, blind dumb allegience to Dogma should be marched in front of a firing squad and shot."










"Yep, another MASS shooting"


:-/

moosedrool

Trad climber
lost, far away from Poland
Dec 30, 2012 - 10:41am PT
In other words, it is hopeless to try to make the world a better place? I don't agree Jingy. The world is a better place to live in than it was a 100 years ago. Look at Europe. 2000 years of wars, and now at peace for the longest period of time. There is hope.
Education and unbiased information is key.
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Dec 30, 2012 - 10:54am PT
I find the following short collection of charts and maps to be somewhat fascinating.

A breakdown of leading religions in the U.S. by state & county.
A breakdown of leading religions in the U.S. by state & county.
Credit: Fritz

Please note the areas where Baptists are in the majority and compare those to the following maps.

Sedentary life-style map.
Sedentary life-style map.
Credit: Fritz

Obesity percents by state:  From the Center for Disease Control.
Obesity percents by state: From the Center for Disease Control.
Credit: Fritz

Heart disease in the U.S. by state & county.
Heart disease in the U.S. by state & county.
Credit: Fritz

Least healthy areas in red & brown.
Least healthy areas in red & brown.
Credit: Fritz



Credit: Fritz


Fascinating information to me.

Some people might conclude that the Baptist "bible-belt", is the most sedentary, least healthy, least educated, and most Republican part of the U.S.





moosedrool

Trad climber
lost, far away from Poland
Dec 30, 2012 - 11:04am PT
Who cares about facts, Fritz. Like 64% of Americans say that if they were presented with a scientific fact that would be in conflict with their religion, they would reject the truth and stay with their religion. Wow!
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Dec 30, 2012 - 11:10am PT
Those MRI images are pretty conclusive I'd say.

But is the cancer responding to chemotherapy and radiation?

What? You haven't even tried it yet?
Wayno

Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
Dec 30, 2012 - 11:13am PT
What if life was created to evolve? To fill the universe with ever-increasing levels of perfection that eventuate in the supreme expression of itself.

edit-- Who needs belief when you have really good questions and an open mind?
eeyonkee

Trad climber
Golden, CO
Dec 30, 2012 - 11:23am PT
Great posts jstan, HFCS, and Fritz! I think jstan is right on.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Dec 30, 2012 - 11:27am PT
I do wonder if anybody has ever changed their minds about belief in evolution/natural selection as a result of reading these threads.

As of course you know, they're only the threads of climbers. I learned a long time ago when confronted with (know-it-all) ignorance or (know-it-all) blind, dumb faith to take heart in this fact. It's worked.

That said, I appreciate the cross-section of views that I get from this climbing site (tempered of course by climbing reports and pics) that I don't get elsewhere. That's its on-going value to me.

.....

haha, I'm channeling you. :)
darkmagus

Mountain climber
San Diego, CA
Dec 30, 2012 - 11:30am PT
Thanks for the posts, HFCS. Psyched to watch that video in full!

Fritz: awesome charts. Do you think there is any connection between sedentary lifestyles and lack of education? Or between sedentary lifestyles and religious belief? We know that cognitive function is improved/enhanced by physical activity. I think there is some literature out there to support the connection: http://informahealthcare.com/doi/abs/10.1080/17518420801997007
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Dec 30, 2012 - 11:37am PT
Thanks to Fritz for the summary of the present situation.

Large parts of America seem to have no ability to see reality as it is.

People are drifting along in a sea of power, money and double-dealing, believing and praying to a god that has long been dead, a god that is still used as a means in the money-/powermakers double-dealing. The zeenyboppers are sitting on their cushions and every time they open their mouth they feed the beast.

Luckily America still has some of the best scientific minds on earth. But also proper science is under attack from money-makers as well as preasts and zeenyboppers, not to mention a juridical system that is cementing the idiocy.

My best wishes for America and president Obama to sort this out. It's extremely difficult to change the mindsets of people who believe in something that is a part of what destroys them. It is going to take a generation or two to sort this out.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Dec 30, 2012 - 11:37am PT
This one says a lot


The Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which unskilled individuals suffer from illusory superiority, mistakenly rating their ability much higher than average. This bias is attributed to a metacognitive inability of the unskilled to recognize their mistakes.[1]

Actual competence may weaken self-confidence, as competent individuals may falsely assume that others have an equivalent understanding. David Dunning and Justin Kruger conclude, "the miscalibration of the incompetent stems from an error about the self, whereas the miscalibration of the highly competent stems from an error about others".[2]
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Dec 30, 2012 - 11:38am PT
Moose -
In other words, it is hopeless to try to make the world a better place? I don't agree Jingy. The world is a better place to live in than it was a 100 years ago. Look at Europe. 2000 years of wars, and now at peace for the longest period of time. There is hope.
Education and unbiased information is key.

 No, its not hopeless. I just prefer to have a realistic view of as much as I can.
go-B

climber
Hebrews 1:3
Dec 30, 2012 - 11:58am PT
If you take a pie, (make it southern pecan, yummy!) and that represented ALL Knowledge!

How big a slice of the pie would you make to represent what mankind knows at this time?

Now of that slice, how much would you say that you know?


Ephesians 1:7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will
Riley Wyna

Trad climber
A crack near you
Dec 30, 2012 - 12:02pm PT
The Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which unskilled individuals suffer from illusory superiority, mistakenly rating their ability much higher than average. This bias is attributed to a metacognitive inability of the unskilled to recognize their mistakes.[1]

Actual competence may weaken self-confidence, as competent individuals may falsely assume that others have an equivalent understanding. David Dunning and Justin Kruger conclude, "the miscalibration of the incompetent stems from an error about the self, whereas the miscalibration of the highly competent stems from an error about others".[2]
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Dec 30, 2012 - 12:03pm PT
63% of Americans say that they absolutely believe in "Angels"

when questioned further, they say Angels are fairy type flying beings that are good and look after them personally

how cool is that?
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Dec 30, 2012 - 12:07pm PT
what about those that believe in both creation/evolution?

aint even represtin...

uh... isn't that the 32%? Or are you talking about something even more contrived?
moosedrool

Trad climber
lost, far away from Poland
Dec 30, 2012 - 12:09pm PT
Damn, my angel must be a bitch ;/
eeyonkee

Trad climber
Golden, CO
Dec 30, 2012 - 12:09pm PT
I've said a few times on this forum that whether evolution is true or not is the least interesting thing you can possibly discuss about the subject. Here's an interesting one. Any complex extraterrestrial life anywhere in the universe will almost certainly have also evolved by evolution by natural selection. The idea was first suggested by Richard Dawkins. There's simply no other process that we know of that could logically do the job.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Dec 30, 2012 - 12:27pm PT
Why is not perfectly acceptable to say and believe that:

1) There IS a "god" of whatever description

2) That god created the universe, which allowed the random creation of our planet

3) All life did indeed evolve over billions of years on earth, including humans

4) When we die we will have a better spiritual life under god's approving watch

everyone is happy?


"Yes, it's true honey, we were created in His image"
photo not found
Missing photo ID#281289
go-B

climber
Hebrews 1:3
Dec 30, 2012 - 12:28pm PT
(Ron Anderson) was up early this am,, went outside in the COLD fresh air- as the most gentle snow was falling..I looked around at the gorgeous white carpet of fresh snow- spotting tracks that came from a grey fox that had been cruising the hood last night. Those tiny lil footprints in the snow suggested to me, that there IS something beyond our knowledge. Who could invent such a little critter as that fox, with its dainty toes and heels tracking through the snow? He is my friend that fox. We exist in a symbiotic way- i have scraps and he likes scraps and together we go through life.

Surely on such a morning of tranquility there are better and bigger powers at work.. I simply cant point a finger to the actual.


An atheist and a Christian went camping and were sleeping in a tent, and the atheist said, if I can't see, hear, smell, touch, or taste something, I can't believe in it, then they went to bed.
The next morning, the Christian said there was a bear outside last night!
The atheist said, "did you see it", "nope" said the Christian,
"did you hear it", "nope" said the Christian,
"did you smell it", "nope" said the Christian,
"did you touch it", "nope" said the Christian,
"did you, you didn't taste it", "nope" said the Christian,
Than how do you know there was a bear here last night?
Because his footprints were just outside the tent!
That's how we see God, by His handiwork all around us!

Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Dec 30, 2012 - 12:28pm PT
ehh... don't worry about too much, Jim. The good news is they canceled Easter this year.





yeah....

















they found the body
moosedrool

Trad climber
lost, far away from Poland
Dec 30, 2012 - 12:43pm PT
Why is not perfectly acceptable to say and believe that:

1) There IS a "god" of whatever description

2) That god created the universe, which allowed the random creation of our planet

3) All life did indeed evolve over billions of years on earth, including humans

4) When we die we will have a better spiritual life under god's approving watch

everyone is happy?

You know why, Norton, because the scripture says otherwise. Individual believes are very different from religious dogma.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Dec 30, 2012 - 12:47pm PT
This is a complicated subject and certainly there are lots of ways to interpret the various polls, etc... but the national character of the United States (I'll leave the other Americans out of this) is one of practicality.

You can see that in de Tocqueville's writings, an interesting set of observations that ring true today written at that very early time of the US, certainly a work of someone interested in just how democracy was going to work out...

...the dominant ethic at that time was "hard work and money-making" (quoted from Wikipedia). There was the sense that equality was a driving force in the nation, with no deference to elites.

In that context one could ask what the science of Evolution has to provide to such a nation. First off, it is the product of a group of elites, those intellectuals and academics. The most effective affront to evolution is that idea that science is just as good a description as anything else. Interestingly, in the one place that evolution actually has an economic impact, the technologies of anti-microbal medicine and virus vaccines, we find even the staunchest opponents of "macro-Evolution" allowing for the "fact" of "micro-Evolution" that science which is accepted provides for "money making."

de Tocqueville addressed this in his Chapter X of Democracy in Amercia "Why The Americans Are More Addicted to Practical than to Theoretical Science". It is a wonderful chapter and bears reading (http://xroads.virginia.edu/~HYPER/DETOC/ch1_10.htm) and it captures the current conundrum excellently, in particular, most of the country wonders why we pursue research goals that do not have some practical outcome, and nearly all of the "pure science" research organizations go to great lengths to show the practical aspects of their programs.

One might protest that the United States has been a great scientific power, but actually that is an artifact of European politics in the 1930s, that is, the expulsion of intellectuals from Germany and allied countries, many of whom made their way to the United States, especially scientists. Previous to World War II all the best scientists in the United States trained in Europe, the US was, for the most part, a scientific backwater.

In part that was because of the practical bent of US science, you have Edison's exhortations that "genius is one percent inspiration and ninety-nine percent perspiration" which is a wonderful evocation of de Tocqueville's observed ethic of hard work (and the subsequent reward of "big bucks" made of Edison's work).

Can anyone of you name a prominent US scientist who worked before WWII?

The influx of the best of Europe's scientists had a profound positive effect on science in the United States. It was a major contribution to the development of technologies that contributed to winning the war. This was so evident that Roosevelt had asked Vannevar Bush to write outline for him the role of science in the United States following the war. Two weeks after the successful test of the atomic bomb Bush provided his reply in his report "The Endless Frontier" which is the blueprint of the US government's science enterprise, responsible for creating the National Research Board, the National Science Foundation, indirectly responsible for the national labs.

It's deepest insight was that no one had anticipated the utility of science for its role in aiding to the war effort as profoundly as it did. And no one could anticipate in the future what might be needed in the time of national crisis. Therefore, the only reasonable policy was for the government to support science in the broadest sense free from direction by application.

The government's role was important since this goal of having a robust scientific infrastructure was not something industry was interested in nor could fund.

Even given reasonable and noble cause, the program outlined in "The Endless Frontier" languished for a decade. The United States was in the mode of getting back to normal, and the practicality of spending on something that didn't really have a direct commercial or practical application seemed a bit frivolous and unnecessary. This changed with the perceived threat of the Soviet Union's success at launching a satellite. The "Sputnik" required a quick response, and the Eisenhower administration dusted off "The Endless Frontier" report and made it policy...

At the end of WWII, the United States was the only country that could support science at all, and science thrived here, it took until the 1970s before there was a glimmer of scientific competition from the world, the Soviet Union leading in that time, and the emergence of a robust, competitive European science enterprise emerged in the 1980s and 1990s. Now the playing field is quite flat.

Given that the US doesn't dominate in science, it is natural for the government to ask questions regarding the funding of this enterprise, especially where the research lack direct practical outcome.

Not only that, but the elite status of the science community has certainly been questioned more and more, and is at the center of many policy debates of current social importance.

The best example of this is the so called "climate change" debate, which is a debate largely about whether or not we should respond to a particular scientific finding. To recall briefly, atmospheric science is a discipline which emerged over the last 200 years, and waited for a practical computational technique to move it forward due to the complexity of the mechanics of fluids. The 1950s saw "super computing" capability (coming out of the war effort) and the first models computed provided results consistent with general observations. The practical goal was to aid in weather prediction, an obviously utilitarian outcome.

But this work also aided in the study of climate, which certainly was a "backwater" science until recently, addressing largely academic questions of things like the paleoclimate, certainly of no use to modern industry.

Bringing these studies forward in time, and coupling climate and weather models together, there emerged the long anticipated signs of human influence on the climate, out of the noisy natural variability of the weather. That signal grew, as predicted, and now the signs are quite obvious.

This scientific finding allows a varying degree of predictability, and that predictability allows some consequences to be fleshed out... and those consequences being rather disrupting, the natural question is what should the government response, in terms of policy, be to this scientific finding.

I'm not opening up the issues of the "climate change" debate here but rather to point out that 20 years ago nearly no one in the United States could explain just what the climate scientists were doing, let alone why. And it should surprise you all to know that all they were doing was pursuing their scientific questions, which at the time didn't seem to have much practical application, and very little notice on the national scale of important things to worry about.

That is a vindication of Vannevar Bush's instincts that we couldn't anticipate what science we would need to help rise to future national challenges. Somehow, climate science was supported not to anticipate the problems of "climate change" but to just do science.

The open-endedness of most science questions is not very appealing to the national desire that these things be relevant in some way to current problems. For the most part, the science that gets done is of little notice to the general public even though access to this work is the greatest it has ever been (thanks to another "spin-off," the internet and the World Wide Web, both inventions driven by scientific needs).

People in the United States don't care about the Big Bang, or Evolution, or any of that stuff because it is perceived to be, at best, irrelevant to their day-to-day activities and at worst the stuff foisted upon them by the "scientific elites."

The modern idea of having polished performances of the national lab director's utterances would certainly gloat at your visceral response to the answer Robert Wilson, then the director of an embattled Fermi National Laboratory, in congressional testimony, responding to the question "does your particle accelerator contribute to the defense of the country" [in other words, is it at all practical], he was reported to have said "It makes the country worth defending."

Almost every citizen of the United States would have essentially the de Tocquivillian predicted response that this was an elitist reply, and most national labs today would have so carefully scripted such testimony so as to avoid the possibility of such utterances, yet Bob Wilson actually felt that there were things the United States did that defined itself that were worth defending.

Bob Wilson, for what it's worth, grew up on a Wyoming ranch and was the first generation of a truly US grown science community who did much of his science in the spirit of that US.

But when the local populace of Batavia Illinois was informed that the government was taking that land for the new national laboratory observed that it was "a waste of good farming land." They didn't have much need for the work that lab would do over the next forty years.

Now we live in an era long past WWII, and it's my opinion that the science achievements of that period were an anomaly rather than a change in direction. We are getting back to the business of the US, and that is business.

It is questionable that the country has the interest or the will to pursue science, the simple razor being "what does it do for me today? how does it make me money?"

While I believe that the pursuit of science for its own sake is of great benefit, I cannot prophesize which research those benefits will come from, no one can. Just look at the net, Google, when first created, received the scorn of the business community because there was no viable "business plan" and now, today, Google is the subject of anti-trust investigations. The annual business revenue from the internet exceeds the total expenditures of the US government to support High Energy Physics since it began to do so over 50 years ago. That's not a bad return on investment.

Who now could make such an argument for science?
locker

Social climber
state of Kumbaya...
Dec 30, 2012 - 12:51pm PT

Death is final...



Our energy may float around a bit...

But it won't be, US...
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Dec 30, 2012 - 01:15pm PT
How the FBI coordinated the crackdown on Occupy

New documents prove what was once dismissed as paranoid fantasy: totally integrated corporate-state repression of dissent

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/dec/29/fbi-coordinated-crackdown-occupy

"The document shows a terrifying network of coordinated DHS, FBI, police, regional fusion center, and private-sector activity so completely merged into one another that the monstrous whole is, in fact, one entity: in some cases, bearing a single name, the Domestic Security Alliance Council. And it reveals this merged entity to have one centrally planned, locally executed mission. The documents, in short, show the cops and DHS working for and with banks to target, arrest, and politically disable peaceful American citizens."
eeyonkee

Trad climber
Golden, CO
Dec 30, 2012 - 01:22pm PT
Ed, could you summarize that in 10 words. This is football Sunday.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Dec 30, 2012 - 01:26pm PT
will evolution make me money?
no.
who cares about it?
go-B

climber
Hebrews 1:3
Dec 30, 2012 - 01:29pm PT
If Denver wins over KC, they will have a week off and homefield advantage throughout playoffs!
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Dec 30, 2012 - 01:29pm PT
A quick and oversimplified take on a short version of Ed's post:
America has always wanted applied science that generates money and not pure science without an immediate practical purpose. Excellent scientists came from Europe to the US during WW2 and gave the US a scientific advantage. The scientific advantages did not grow out of an American scientific mentality and now everything is returning back to normal - business as usual.

Ok, ok... that was nearly 60 words.
jogill

climber
Colorado
Dec 30, 2012 - 01:43pm PT
An excellent essay, Ed. Always a pleasure to read your posts!


;>)
eeyonkee

Trad climber
Golden, CO
Dec 30, 2012 - 01:44pm PT
Back from the Broncos game. Nice, Ed! Now that's the kind of sound bite that I can hold in my head at the same time as the football score.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Dec 30, 2012 - 01:55pm PT
one could ask what the science of Evolution has to provide

For those (relatively few?) who care beyond the monetizing....

It provides a unifying understanding that is a part of a larger more or less brand new system of thought that's serviceable as a basis or foundation... the latter in turn being a most excellent platform for other systems of thought - all of which taken together make for a modern, state of the art toolkit (Nice!) for considering new approaches to - if not making the best of - life and its challenges.

A house (in this case, a house of belief, perhaps) is only as good as its foundation.


In comparison, the traditional foundation of the Abrahamic religions (at odds with science) is seen as archaic (by those with the flashlights to look upon its truth-claims), more and more people everyday are coming around to this realization, and ever more are besides themselves, so to speak, caught up in all its implications, wondering what it all means for themselves in particular and humanity in general, for both today and tomorrow, in terms of, for instance, purpose.

Growing pains.

.....

Can anyone of you name a prominent US scientist who worked before WWII?

Interesting way to put it. But how about U.S. science efforts (in lieu of individual scientists, esp "prominent" ones)? Too many to count. From astronomy to zoology.

But then I will concede that my aunt and uncle couldn't.
crunch

Social climber
CO
Dec 30, 2012 - 01:58pm PT
Visited the Hoover Dam a few weeks ago. Got talking to this guy; we both were astounded by the standard of workmanship and vision that had created not only a thoroughly practical and enormous dam but a thing of beauty, way back in the 1930s in just three years or so (far more impressive and more pleasing to the eye than that cursed Glen Canyon Dam, built in the 1960s).

We walked around for a minute or two, pointing out cool features and highlights. Both of us were struck at the ambition of this project, seemingly a million miles from anything that anyone could pull off, or even dream of, today.

Finally, as a summing up of his thoughts, he remarked, shaking his head a bit, "It's God-given....that's what it is... God-given" and wandered off.

I said nothing. A few seconds too late I realized I should have replied, "No, it is not God-given! This was built by architects, engineers, form-setters, carpenters, laborers, people like you and me."

Ignorance in the sense of merely not knowing is one thing. Because you can always learn, try to understand, grasp new ideas, new concepts.

But to give up, to not even try to comprehend, as in the case with refusing to believe that the Hoover Dam intervention by a higher power, that's sad. It's willful ignorance, a refusal to even look at the obvious evidence in front of one's eyes.

As a climber, I love examining the rocks and formations we climb on, the fossils, crystals, strata, desert varnish; all these things so clearly point to an Earth that is of vast age. Baffling how so many people can willfully choose to believe that this Earth is a mere 6,000 years old.
WBraun

climber
Dec 30, 2012 - 01:58pm PT
Thousands of years ago science was very advanced.

Today in the so called modern age it's gone into the cave man cave.

Devolved, devolution.

Some day in 428,000 years they will wake up again from their slumber ......
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Dec 30, 2012 - 01:59pm PT
HFCS - "too many to count"
name a few, I can, perhaps you can, but I think the response to your list might be underwhelming...
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Dec 30, 2012 - 02:00pm PT
I edited my post with a final comment, perhaps you didn't see it.

I think the response to your list might be underwhelming

Underwhelming? Yeah, perhaps to my aunt and uncle. Perhaps even to a theoretical physicist?

Ouch!!

I'll start with the "effort" behind the whole of the American Museum of Natural History led by Barnum Brown and Henry Osborn. That would be Paleontology. Yeah, it is a science. Plus, it was an amazing AMERICAN effort.**

So, too we could also name the early work, obviously, of the Wright Brothers. That was straight up science at the time.

Rinse and repeat. 1,000 times over. Another amazing AMERICAN effort.

.....


** 20 years ago, I spent two weeks at this museum studying their late 19th, early 20th century efforts. Great hands-on science.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Dec 30, 2012 - 02:01pm PT
Werner, you pull this sh#t out of the air all the time...
please be more explicit... what, exactly, do you mean? I'm at a total loss sometime with your expositions that don't really say anything... say something more.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Dec 30, 2012 - 02:03pm PT
"No, it is not God-given! This was built by architects, engineers, form-setters, carpenters, laborers, people like you and me."

Many of whom died on the job and were hastily discarded because they were in the way of progress. Besides, no god would ever flood Glen Canyon to support the likes of Vegas and LA.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Dec 30, 2012 - 02:04pm PT
I saw it, still, name a few US scientific accomplishments pre WWII
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Dec 30, 2012 - 02:08pm PT
Already did. Take off your theoretical physics cap.

There is a great deal to science beyond subatomic particles.
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Dec 30, 2012 - 02:10pm PT
Thousands of years ago science was very advanced.

we still really can't figure out how the pyramids were built. ardently believing subjects straining to lift giant blocks without even wheels and pulleys so's their pharoah could live forever? haha--our industrial psychologists ought to be going to school on that kind of motivation.

they say we don't even have the technology now to lift some of the stones quarried then.

there is interesting speculation that the pyramids were built thousands of years before egypt's old kingdom, and contemporaneous with things like the nazca plain and tihuanaco.

interestingly as well, there are supposedly hundreds of pyramids around china, something we seem to be asleep about in the west.
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Dec 30, 2012 - 02:12pm PT
Long ago and far away: I was married to a rather liberal young-woman from Tennessee. Her family was Baptist. Both her parents had college degrees and my father in law was a MD.

When they visited us one time, my wife proudly showed her parents our collection of crystals and fossils. As she explained how many hundred- million years old a Trilobite fossil was, her father interjected that it simply wasn't possible, since the Bible-timeline didn't allow the earth to be anywhere close to that old.

Then he said:
"Don't you know? Fossils are just God's little joke to test our belief in him."

Sigh.
go-B

climber
Hebrews 1:3
Dec 30, 2012 - 02:15pm PT
Crusher, Hoover Dam is a man made marvel!
We could of had a job together as high scalers...

photo not found
Missing photo ID#281296

Note, the Bachar ladder!
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Dec 30, 2012 - 02:16pm PT
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egyptian_pyramid_construction_techniques

We may not know every single detail as to how the pyramids were built, but the overall picture is clear, and there's lots of evidence to substantiate it.
Mimi

climber
Dec 30, 2012 - 02:22pm PT
Ed, your essay just grilled my cheese sandwich. I'll be back later. LOL!

Who cares what it 'gives' us? How about enjoying the knowledge for its own sake?

Everyone should check out NASA and get their newsletters on a regular basis. What we're learning about the universe at such an amazing rate is mind blowing. There could be a major breakthrough on the whole evolution/divine intervention debate anytime, including on this planet. I hope I get to read about it in my lifetime.

http://www.nasa.gov/home/index.html


ROTFL edit: Ed, don't you have the Werner Translator algorithm installed? I'll help you out, he should have said that your essay cooked him, but he tried to communicate his thoughts. Be nice.
rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
Dec 30, 2012 - 02:24pm PT
"Can anyone of you name a prominent U.S. scientist who worked before world war II".
How about Alexander Graham Bell, Thomas Edison, The Wright Brothers,Edwin Hubble..... And all of them evolved from theory to observation to confirmation and onto practical application within the capitalist system.
eeyonkee

Trad climber
Golden, CO
Dec 30, 2012 - 02:26pm PT
I think I've found something to believe in more profoundly than evolution...Peyton Manning.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Dec 30, 2012 - 02:27pm PT
HFCS, you have a peculiarly practical bent to your scientific aesthetic, completely in line with your cultural heritage.

I wasn't demeaning these practical applied science efforts at all. But applied science rests on the foundation of pure science. (By the way, I'm not a theorist, I actually built stuff in my career as an experimentalist).

Perhaps the best in my opinion would be Willard Gibbs, who wrote only one book as a prof at Yale, Robert Millikan, Albert Michelson (an emigrant who grew up in Murphy's Camp, CA and Virgina City NV), Arthur Compton, Henry Rowland, ...

I'll come up with more, it wouldn't surprise me if no one knew who these were, let alone what their contributions were
Mimi

climber
Dec 30, 2012 - 02:30pm PT
I think we can all agree that alien intervention got the whole ball rolling. And that includes multidimensional travel.

You know, those weird beings that the Zulu medicine men get all fired up about.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Dec 30, 2012 - 02:37pm PT
Nobel Science Prize Winners from USA, 1901 - 45

Physics: Michelson (1907), Millikan (1923), Compton (1926), Anderson (1936), Lawrence (1939), Stern (1943), Rabi (1944).

Chemistry: Richards (1914), Langmuir (1932).

Medicine & Physiology: Morgan (1933), Whipple, Minot & Murphy (1934), Doisy (1943), Erlanger & Gasser (1944).

(I'll omit economics, as it's not a science.)

Germany and the United Kingdom won many pre-war awards.

Information easily found on the Nobel Prize website - http://www.nobelprize.org/

Alexander Graham Bell was Scottish/Canadian/American, but much more of an inventor and engineer.

Werner Translator algorithm: Where can I get it?
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Dec 30, 2012 - 02:46pm PT
Michelson

Isotropic speed of light guy, right?

None I've seen on the lists compare to Einstein, Schrodinger, Bohr, etc... as far as I know... none of whom were US scientists.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Dec 30, 2012 - 02:56pm PT
invented the Michelson interferometer which was used in the isotropic speed of light measurement, but had a wider application

The Nobel prize is recent, Gibbs' contributions were on par with European physics at that time.
Morgan

Trad climber
East Coast
Dec 30, 2012 - 02:57pm PT
Ben Franklin said:

"We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid."

I guess folks are putting in some overtime.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Dec 30, 2012 - 03:07pm PT
Ed,
I wasn't demeaning these practical applied science efforts at all. But applied science rests on the foundation of pure science.

(1) Take for example the Wright Brothers. When does the "science" of the Wright Brothers become the "applied science"? when the aeroplane makes it 100 yds, 100 miles? when it was first used to practical benefit?

(2) What of scientific discoveries? What of scientific achievements that don't entail much of any "scientific method" in their fruition? Are they not a part of science? In short, are they not science?

.....

HFCS, you have a peculiarly practical bent to your scientific aesthetic...

I would take that as a compliment. :)
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 30, 2012 - 03:07pm PT
Werner may have missed a decimal point.

I need to check the figures.
eeyonkee

Trad climber
Golden, CO
Dec 30, 2012 - 03:10pm PT
Ed, finally read that long post (it's halftime). I read it out loud to my wife, Elizabeth. My wife loves your brain (but my body).
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Dec 30, 2012 - 03:11pm PT
conference call!!!
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Dec 30, 2012 - 03:13pm PT
HFCS has some valid points. The Nobel prizes are somewhat abitrarily awarded, and focus very much on experimental science - scientists who create hypotheses, and then experiments to validate them. The latter sometimes tend toward actual inventions, but not always, although the prize in medicine and physiology seems to, to a greater extent. Also, certainly in the early part of the 20th century, there wasn't quite as defined a line between "science", "engineering" and "inventing", and there was an awful lot of room for all.

Still, over time the prizes tend to be awarded with reasonable justice, especially in the hard peer-reviewed sciences.

It's interesting that many of the leading mathematicians of the last century weren't from the western nations, although much of the physics was in turn based on that mathematics, and the difference between mathematics and physics isn't always clear.
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Dec 30, 2012 - 03:25pm PT
I may be the only one to watch the full one hour lecture that HFCS posted (and I will re-post again). Normally I won't waste a full hour of my day watching a video, but I clicked on it and am now about half way through it.

I truly encourage both those of religion and those without, to watch it. The lecturer addresses these issues very directly, and his point is pretty obvious if you want to get down to the nitty gritty:

Science and Religion cannot co-exist in any truthful way. I know that I try to appease Go-B, because I can tell that he is a good guy, but he is wrong and I know it. When I look at something such as evolution, a biological theory, and compare it to paleontology, a geological area of study, they fit together perfectly.

Not only did Darwin say that life evolves, but the entire fossil record of the Planet Earth agrees with it. It is a plain and simple fact, and nobody has ever found a nail in an Ordovician rock. Not only that, but nobody has ever found a land plant fossil in an Ordovician rock.

People, science has had the Universe strapped to a lie detector for a couple of hundred years now, and these things are not just a few scientists here and there. These ideas survive inquiry from many thousands of very curious people who devote their entire lives in the search for truth. This search requires you to cast away any prejudice, and the most ruthless (while still valid) form of scrutiny is the Scientific Method.

If you want to put science under questioning and scrutiny, by all means do. It is designed that way. Just realize that the obverse works just as well.

Prove that God exists. Have at it.

Here is the most excellent lecture. It distills this whole argument into a very simple matter. Science and religion cannot coexist:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ekc2Nn03IVM
Mimi

climber
Dec 30, 2012 - 03:30pm PT
BASE, of course they can co-exist. They are based on two totally different premises.

One, fact based.

The other, based on belief.

Why does belief not measure up as another valid reality? Just because it can't currently be empirically proven for most of us? Doesn't mean it lacks worth.
TWP

Trad climber
Mancos, CO
Dec 30, 2012 - 03:47pm PT
Great essay Ed.

Don't worry about Werner's pronouncement. WB believes in time lines from Hindu mythology.
The Warbler

climber
the edge of America
Dec 30, 2012 - 03:49pm PT
How can science and religion coexist when facts (science) prove basic, foundational religious beliefs about past events could never have happened, other than in the imagination of believers?

Science and the simple concept of an anonymous higher being, a Great Spirit if you will, could coexist, in my mind, but when particular religions make particular claims about things like how and when earth and man were created, the honeymoon's over - science and religion are hopelessly at odds.



10b4me

Boulder climber
Somewhere on 395
Dec 30, 2012 - 03:52pm PT
If we're so dumb how come we're all rich?

Chris, you must be speaking metaphorically



Mimi

climber
Dec 30, 2012 - 03:52pm PT
Yeah, for the uneducated who can't discern between the two.

An educated enlightened populace could have a dialogue without killing each other over it. We're not there yet. To say the least.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Dec 30, 2012 - 03:55pm PT
Extraordinary claims (religion) require extraordinary proofs.

Incantations to raise the dead and praying to imaginary friends require more than just belief to be plausible.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Dec 30, 2012 - 04:07pm PT
Well you know Jim, ignorance is bliss.
go-B

climber
Hebrews 1:3
Dec 30, 2012 - 04:09pm PT
Science and religion cannot coexist:

God is the Creator, the scientific genius!
10b4me

Boulder climber
Somewhere on 395
Dec 30, 2012 - 04:10pm PT
Well you know Jim, ignorance is bliss.


and it's folly to be wise
The Warbler

climber
the edge of America
Dec 30, 2012 - 04:13pm PT
Religion and "God" are two different things.

You can have God without religion.
Mimi

climber
Dec 30, 2012 - 04:16pm PT
We need to clarify that religion, by definition, doesn't belong in this conversation if we are to have a positive one. This is much bigger than conventional religion.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Dec 30, 2012 - 04:19pm PT
Why does belief not measure up as another valid reality?

Because we can't afford to spend time arming ourselves against the evils of Mordor when we have REAL issues like global warming, depletion of natural resources, terrorists who believe Uhmerikuh is inherently evil and should be destroyed.

Just because it can't currently be empirically proven for most of us?

Yep, someday they will empirically prove resurrection happens, virgin birth is biologically possible, and people can actually walk on water.
Mimi

climber
Dec 30, 2012 - 04:24pm PT
Leastly, your twisted mind is so clouded that you can't advance your higher thought processes to handle broad based concepts without overloading.

Wondering about a higher plane does not mean we abandon life's daily concerns. Sheesh!
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Dec 30, 2012 - 04:38pm PT
Mimi,

There is a very good reason that science cannot truthfully coexist with religion. Religion is founded entirely on faith. Faith is belief without evidence. If all knowledge of the natural Universe must be inferior to the laws of faith, then we are going nowhere.

If we are going to be that inclusive in our discussion, we can include any belief without evidence. Have at it.

I know that this sounds pretty strict, but it is the inevitable outcome of any serious thought on the matter.
WBraun

climber
Dec 30, 2012 - 04:46pm PT
God has to be based on evidence not faith .......
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Dec 30, 2012 - 04:47pm PT
Mimi, your projection of your own stupidity onto my posts is beyond belief.
Mimi

climber
Dec 30, 2012 - 04:49pm PT
I tried to diminish the role of conventional religion in this discussion. I specified evolution vs. divine intervention. There is a slight difference.

So many people are hung up bashing people/religions for believing in incidents that happened hundreds of years ago. I'm focusing on the current science of our existence and ancient concepts about these ideas.

Whatever you want to believe Leastly. Not my problem, tarbaby.
Riley Wyna

Trad climber
A crack near you
Dec 30, 2012 - 04:54pm PT
will evolution make me money?
no.
who cares about it

While this alone would be enough to doom any society and the environment in which it exists I believe there is more going on than selfishness, materialism, shallowness, greed and capitalism. I don't believe what is going on in America can be found in the historical precedent of America. It can however be found to some extent in the history of many other failed cultures.

The rise of fundamentalism in any society - modern evangelicals can be traced back to an origin about 130 years ago - is a death nail. Our modern hard right-wing Christians are analogous to the Taliban. The men the Republicans are putting in charge of congressional science committees think science is "The Satan' and think woman have the physiological ability to block legitimate rape. Just take a second to stop and think about that - we have complete lunatics in positions of power in our government. We were a few votes away from having one of the dumbest woman in the history of politics as our vice-president and very possibly the President. This is a remarkable occurrence than can not be found in historical precedent and to examine the deep causes of this is frightening.

Rising multinational corporate and media power in conjunction with political power is responsible for this and it has changed how we think and receive information; we have not had time to adapt to this new reality.
The power of the oligarchy and the plutocrat has invaded every democracy on earth.

America didnt get where it is today by glorifying stupidity and ignorance as it now does. There have been periods in America's past where knowledge, critical thinking, enlightenment, and thought were thought of in the highest regards. A country that produced Emerson, Thomas Jefferson, Theodore Roosevelt and Lincoln did so by valuing clear thought and education.

Now superstition, myth,ideology,cult,violence, war, destruction,celebrity,media, corporation, ignorance and a range of phobias rule the day for close to a majority of our society.

As fun as national sports can be it's actually pretty damn ridiculous for mobs of grown men to sit around cheering for corporate money making machines that they have nothing more than an imaginary connection too.

Certainly there are still plenty of smart people out there - but they are fewer than you would think - much of the hard left wing is just as programmed as the right wing and involved in superstitions just as ridiculous.

This is a battle for our politics -it's not something that is being manipulated in some grand plan by an all powerful man or group - at least not entirely anyway. It seems to be more a river or road people and cultures end up on historically. The need for authoritarian control, people will give up their freedom for the security of a god, dictator, false government, cult leader,Pope, King or anything that takes away the anxiety of existence.

The founding fathers spent a great deal of time trying to prevent this kind of thing from occurring and "right now" is the biggest test that their ideas and hard work has ever faced.
It's actually going on all over the world right now -a battle with corporate oligarchs - and it is being lost, there are many examples, so as to support our lazy and wasteful way of life.


balance, wisdom, enlightenment, courage,freedom, caring, conservation - vs - greed, ignorance, violence,control, fear and destruction

I believe that Jim's OP is reason to be horribly negative about our future.
We as a species are a plague of locusts, and like every society in man's history, America will consume all its resources while praying to imaginary gods and hoping to find some meaning to it all.
Nothing we are doing is sustainable - it's a big joke on us.



BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Dec 30, 2012 - 04:54pm PT
Sorry Mimi,

This thread just gave a new home to the other thread, which has been going on since Largo started it a couple of years ago. Reading it has actual been one of the highlights of my day if I'm feeling lazy.

It has been a really thoughtful discussion with a lot of mutual respect and not too much flaming.

So this must seem very abrupt and divisive. You don't know that we all have a lot of practice.
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Dec 30, 2012 - 04:58pm PT
Sh#t, Reilly,

I was thinking the exact same thing earlier today. The Taliban are a perfect example of a right wing theocracy gone wild.

The poster child for a diverse and tolerant society.
Mimi

climber
Dec 30, 2012 - 05:01pm PT
Roger that BASE.

Riley, the world is in the toilet. Will only get worse.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Dec 30, 2012 - 05:03pm PT
Base, Riley is my vegan canuckian liberal alter-ego.
Kindly direct your comments on evolution to him.

Yours,
Reilly The Old Testament Relic (because it is so much easier)
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Dec 30, 2012 - 05:12pm PT
Thanks for taking the time to type that Wyna.

While things may suck, I don't share Mimi's bleak view of the world. There is still much potential for turning things around. Humans can be pretty smart locusts... sometimes.
Dr. F.

Ice climber
SoCal
Dec 30, 2012 - 05:19pm PT
Right Wingers
They are against education
Rush Limbaugh rails against education all day long, they want Christian schools or home schooling to keep their cult in the dark, keep them stupid, traditional, ideological driven.

They hate it, not just because they know that smart people will reject their ideas, but because they don't like being part of the progressive, smart, cool crowd, like Hollywood and Universities.

They are rebels that want to go backwards as a culture.

Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Dec 30, 2012 - 05:20pm PT
BUWAAHAHAHAhahahahaaaaa^^^^^ GUD one Doc..!
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Dec 30, 2012 - 05:20pm PT
Below, I post a remarkable video. What makes it remarkable is the person being interviewed, Frank Schaeffer. He was an evangelical minister, who along with his father, Francis Schaeffer, was at the center of the coalition between evangelicals and the republicans. It happened at their dinnertable.

I've heard him in person, and he has a remarkable tale to tell.

What he has to say here gives a very candid viewpoint about what is happening with respect to the topic of this forum.

Dr. F.

Ice climber
SoCal
Dec 30, 2012 - 05:30pm PT
I read his book

He exposes how they are after one thing, control and money

well then, I must correct myself, two things
MH2

climber
Dec 30, 2012 - 05:31pm PT
I wonder why that donini guy didn't listen to this donini guy before starting this thread:

the operable word for postulating a spiritual world is "faith." It makes no sense to argue against it because faith is "belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence."
prickle

Gym climber
globe,az
Dec 30, 2012 - 05:33pm PT
Right Wingers
They are against education
Rush Limbaugh rails against education all day long, they want Christian schools or home schooling to keep their cult in the dark, keep them stupid, traditional, ideological driven.

They hate it, not just because they know that smart people will reject their ideas, but because they don't like being part of the progressive, smart, cool crowd, like Hollywood and Universities.

They are rebels that want to go backwards as a culture.

yeah all the schools in the liberal dem controlled cities are stellar!
moosedrool

Trad climber
lost, far away from Poland
Dec 30, 2012 - 05:40pm PT
I believe Donini’s argument here was that it is important that people believe in evolution. Let’s play a devil’s advocate and say that it is not true. What difference does it make what you believe in? Everybody on this world is looking for happiness and if your believes make you happy, what is the problem? There are hundreds of millions of people on this planet that have never heard about evolution and they are perfectly fine. Right?

Yes and no. In a society where there is only one religion and everyone is a believer, people can be happy and at the same time completely oblivious to the workings of this world (ignorance is bliss).

The problem arises when multiple believes have to coexist in one society (country). Welcome to democracy. Here we try to create a set of rules that would maximize the number of happy citizens. And that is why it is important that people are well informed. In democracy a vote of a genius has the same weight as the vote of a fool. People that don’t believe in evolution, lack critical thinking (and/or information) and can be easily manipulated by others. Religion is the easiest way to manipulate people, because it does not need any proof. That is how democracy is killed.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Dec 30, 2012 - 05:49pm PT
If your world view involves a superior being who designed and operates this world for your benefit, and deny the fact that most of the energy we use to sustain our food supply system (among other things) was formed millions of years ago and took millions of years to accumulate, you are incapable of making any decisions based on reality. You live in a delusional, fairy tale based world... which is fine, as long as your fairy tales don't influence policy that affects the rest of us.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Dec 30, 2012 - 05:52pm PT
the fact that most of the energy we use to sustain our food supply system (among other things) was formed millions of years ago and took millions of years to accumulate

Wes, nice to see you're on board with this!

.....

The problem arises when multiple believes have to coexist in one society (country). Welcome to democracy. Here we try to create a set of rules that would maximize the number of happy citizens. And that is why it is important that people are well informed. In democracy a vote of a genius has the same weight as the vote of a fool. People that don’t believe in evolution, lack critical thinking (and/or information) and can be easily manipulated by others. Religion is the easiest way to manipulate people, because it does not need any proof. That is how democracy is killed.


+1

Beliefs matter.

Why more Americans cannot connect these dots - which aren't that far apart - is a mystery to me. Seems to me they lie squarely in the purview of so-called common sense.

.....


Riley, just too many GOOD points to comment on. TFPU.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Dec 30, 2012 - 06:00pm PT
HFCS, pretty sure I got 28 students to wake up and realize that too... even the ones who were texting most of the time sat up and took notice. I'm happy to say that was the one topic everyone adequately addressed on the final.



Why more Americans cannot connect these dots - which aren't that far apart - is a mystery to me.

Their lives are ruled by fear and insecurity... repackaged and relabeled as benevolence. They pray endlessly to a "benevolent" god who allows a mentally ill person kill 26 people in a school (etc), and then hold vigils where they pray to the same god for the souls of those who were lost, and then pray it will never happen again... which of course it does. How could they not be constantly terrified and insecure? Most religions and religious people are far too immature to properly function in the modern world, which is partially why we are in the mess we are in. Religion is functioning exactly as intended... keeping people scared, insecure, and dependent.

But that's just like my opinion man.
Riley Wyna

Trad climber
A crack near you
Dec 30, 2012 - 06:06pm PT
If your world view involves a superior being who designed and operates this world for your benefit, and deny the fact that most of the energy we use to sustain our food supply system (among other things) was formed millions of years ago and took millions of years to accumulate, you are incapable of making any decisions based on reality. You live in a delusional, fairy tale based world... which is fine, as long as your fairy tales don't influence policy that affects the rest of us.

yup, it's not what your believe or your freedom to believe.
It is that your delusion can be manipulated by what are quite frankly forces of destruction and evil.
"Jesus and guns" is one ridiculous example.

Wes - There is a chapter in "The Brothers Karamazov" called "The Grand Inquisitor" - it's short but says a lot. You may of read it but it is hard to stumble upon by accident. It sort of sums up my opinion of man - I do maintain optimism but it is difficult at times.
Mimi

climber
Dec 30, 2012 - 06:14pm PT
It's not that my world view is that negative, it's just that by the time the world gets the picture and tries to fix the situation, a lot of damage will be done. Way too much ignorance and inertia regardless of the political position, it's human nature in the time of the Kali Yuga. What Werner mentioned earlier about 432,000 years...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kali_Yuga
Dr. F.

Ice climber
SoCal
Dec 30, 2012 - 06:20pm PT
You live in a delusional, fairy tale based world... which is fine, as long as your fairy tales don't influence policy that affects the rest of us.
These are the people cutting funding for education and science

They think that paying less in taxes is more important than a Informed Populous.
Mimi

climber
Dec 30, 2012 - 06:26pm PT
Dr. F, why are you so hung up on taxes? That won't solve the problem if we don't cut spending.

As I recall, Clinton did a pretty good number on science funding when he first got in.
Dr. F.

Ice climber
SoCal
Dec 30, 2012 - 06:30pm PT
Taxes could be raised high on enough everybody to pay the debt back in 10 years
That is a fact
But no wants to make the difficult decision to do what it takes
They instead want to pay less, and cut more jobs and services, which amounts to a race to the bottom

Spending cuts will NEVER PAY DOWN THE DEBT

That's why I keep bringing it up, because it's the Only solution

Why do you deny that tax cuts have created most of the debt?
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Dec 30, 2012 - 06:39pm PT
EH, I used "nuclear" (or is it nucular or nooclur these days, lol) or "theoretical" mostly as a contrast to engineering physics that deals with energy and forces also - mostly at the macro level. You know, the mechanical advantage we have in cams, the energies accumulated and dissipated in a falling climber, the developing stress waves, impulse profiles in a tightening rope, torque on a bolt, etc..

Language and labels what they are, not the best choice, I know. Tell me your favorite self-designation and I'll use it.

At times though, as you know, it is important to draw a distinction between the different branches of physics; it is not all entirely quantum or subatomic. Also as you know, engineering - mechanical, civil, electrical and more recently and excitedly bio- easily reduces to physics, too. Engineering isn't "just" an applied science; in many and various aspects it is straight-up science as any other.

Back to the thread subject elicited by your essayistic post (a worthy one) concerning "basic" science or "pure" science as you called it - as others too pointed out, much of late 19th century discoveries or inventions or improvements in AMERICA were clearly of, in and for science - which was the point I tried to emphasize, that's all.
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Dec 30, 2012 - 06:40pm PT
I'm with Mimi, and she ain't no dumby.

Did you finally get your doctorate, Mimi? It was population genetics or something really elite.

Yeah, the USA is indeed sort of imploding because of what has happened to the Republican Party. They are caught up in a game of making the other guy look bad and are willing to take the country down the toilet as a mild side effect. It is totally unlike anything that I've ever seen, or remember from any history class.

After LBJ passed the civil rights bills, the south went from solid Democrat to Republican. So all of the racists became Republicans.

With the advent of a truly powerful and wildly popular set of high school graduate, draft dodging, ex-disc jockies, and a ruthless Australian Tabloid publisher, the Republicans have been able to now create a fully independent reality for themselves, reassuring each other at every bend and turn. If it were just politics, this wouldn't be such a big deal, but it has turned into that thing I hate: willful ignorance. If you aren't with them, you are against them, and the gray area has dried up like rat sh#t in an old basement.

People, the Right now has their entire world caught up in this metastatic ass boil, something like Ebola of the frontal lobes, and their sole purpose is to do one of three things:

1) Make the left look bad, and the definition in this age would place Goldwater as Obama's basketball partner.

2) Purge the party of anyone who thinks that the good old USA has done anything but good deeds throughout history.

Limbaugh: the liberals want us to apologize to those raped and murdered nuns in El Salvador. They hate America!!!

3) Create a legislative model that is incapable of governing. They don't pass even the housekeeping legislation lest they get called out by one of their unelected masters like Grover Norquist or the NRA. Their clothing and haircuts are more important than taking care of business.

It is like the Republican Party got together and donated their brains to science. This would of course be impossible, since they don't believe in science, but you get my drift.

Not only is this unf*#kingbelievably weird, but when the Tea Party showed up with shanks to stick in their backs, they all started climbing over each other to see who could be the "most conservative."

I assume that involves something like poking a long stick in one ear. If it comes out of the other side without any goo on it, then they are fit to serve.

As for science, I just typed three words into Yahoo. YOU CAN DO IT, TOO! Republican Science Satan

The result is this guy, Rep Paul Broun of the Republican controlled House Science Committee: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/10/06/paul-broun-evolution-big-bang_n_1944808.html

There is also a cool page on some website called theageofblashemy.com and is an absolute must read:

http://theageofblasphemy.wordpress.com/2012/10/06/republican-taliban-satan-behind-big-bang-evolution-and-embryology/

Everyone knows that those heathens the Chinese are kicking our asses at science and technology now. They are building their own space station. We have the Westboro Baptist Church and Ted Nugent, and they damn sure ain't liberals.

Ahhhh. In 100 years there will be 100 billion people on the planet and no gas. I say party while you can.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Dec 30, 2012 - 06:43pm PT
I'm with Mimi, and she ain't no dumby.

In what respect, though?

On this thread, she seemed quite dismissive of beliefs (either the concept of a belief or the application of a belief) having any role in the difficulties our country and world are having in reaching consensus or coming together to get something done. Beliefs are behavioral drivers. Beliefs are not inconsequential.

It is a good thing to point this out. It is a good thing to debate citizens of a democracy that aspires to greatness who express themselves as though one belief is not any better or worse than another.

.....

Time to watch 60 Minutes now. Topic: Applied bioengineering!
Dr. F.

Ice climber
SoCal
Dec 30, 2012 - 06:43pm PT
It must have been sarcasm
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Dec 30, 2012 - 06:47pm PT
I saw a funny poll the other day.

Some poll asked conservatives if they thought that ACORN had stolen the election for Obama.

50% said yes.

Acorn went bankrupt in 2010.
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Dec 30, 2012 - 06:48pm PT
No. Mimi is smart, but taking the long view.
Mimi

climber
Dec 30, 2012 - 06:56pm PT
I got your long view.

I'm trying to kick Steve's ass in darts but I keep checking out the ST to remain engaged in the fray. That's okay, he's chowing on killer nachos fresh from the oven.

Anyway, Dr. F, BS on your tax proposal. And why is it fair to suck us all dry for our own government's gross mismanagement? Screw that! With proper governance and budget management with cuts in spending, we can do it without ruining our economy through unnecessary taxation.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Dec 30, 2012 - 06:59pm PT
And her part about beliefs? what is that about?

For 25 years, I've watched science illiteracy in its many forms of expression and I've watched antiquated theological beliefs (maintained by Abrahamic religious institutions) stand in the way of democratic progress.

As you know, I think we're about the same age, it's not just a recent development. Anyone who thinks so might be a citizen of the United States of Amnesia. Recall Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson. Others.

What you believe matters. (What you hold in your head matters.) It determines how you organize your life and lead your life. Maybe someday they'll have junior high and high school courses that cover this. As part of "Human Functioning." Maybe.

In the meantime, I am grateful for being born in America not Mali or Pakistan where beliefs REALLY matter too.
Captain...or Skully

climber
Dec 30, 2012 - 07:06pm PT
So, with ALL that postulating & sh#t, have you fuckers actually DONE anything?
Uh, no.




Here's the lesson...Shut the fuck up & DO SOMETHING!!!!!6!!
Talk is cheap. The Infernonets should demonstrate that, eminently...
Whisky costs money. You got any? No? Then shut the F*#k up.



As always...Fix it or Fuck it...Whining just paints you as a pussy loser(in nature...Lunch)What'll it be, bitch?
BTW, F*#k you, Wesspiss.
DIE!

































DIE!
































DIE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Dec 30, 2012 - 07:08pm PT
That won't solve the problem if we don't cut spending.

Yep! But what are we going to cut? Clearly cutting education spending will make the biggest difference... and be the best over the long term. Or we could get rid of the entitlement programs for old people. As long as we don't touch corporate welfare and military funding cuz, well, you know capitalism and safety from those who hate capitalism and all that.

Mimi

climber
Dec 30, 2012 - 07:11pm PT
High Sugar Load, of course beliefs matter. You're implying that I must declare my personal beliefs in order to have a valid opinion about certain ideas? May I remind you that we are engaged in a fully public yet somehow nameless, faceless, anonymous, duplicitous, obfuscative and weasley virtual environment. I will say this, without virtues and a code of morality, a society will not function in a healthy and efficient manner. This goes way back.
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Dec 30, 2012 - 07:12pm PT
Mimi,

We have to face the awful truth. We are the government. We are the special interests.

I heard Alan Simpson talking about this, and that guy is hilarious. He spoke that line I stole above. In the new Republican Party you have a guy with a shank in line behind you if you don't snap to.

He said that Bowles' was getting hammered on the Simpson/Bowles agreement from the AARP over changes in Medicare and Social Security, although anyone with a calculator could fix them.

Then Simpson said that all of the Republicans had sold their souls to Grover Norquist over taxes.

End result? Congress is kinda like a puppet show and the puppeteers are the lobbyists for the special interests, as kind as they may sound, such as the AARP.

We gotta raise taxes and cut spending. You can't do it with just one.

The most hysterical thing was Romney insisting on another tax cut. Geez. That song got old back in the disco days.
drljefe

climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
Dec 30, 2012 - 07:12pm PT
Dang.
I believe in ghosts and evolution.

Happy new year from Tucson you guys.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Dec 30, 2012 - 07:12pm PT
I believe Donini’s argument here was that it is important that people believe in evolution. Let’s play a devil’s advocate and say that it is not true. What difference does it make what you believe in? Everybody on this world is looking for happiness and if your believes make you happy, what is the problem? There are hundreds of millions of people on this planet that have never heard about evolution and they are perfectly fine. Right?


Several problems with this argument.

First, most of those hundreds of millions are actually billions, and they live in abject poverty, with a life expectency of under 25 years at birth, and most die horrible deaths, and live most of their lives in starvation. I don't call that fine.

What happens to them, and those that come after them, is somewhat dependent upon what we do.

The way out of the quagmire is through science and technology. Not through prayer. Not through working harder gathering rocks. technologic advancements.

It means successful accumulation of education in a culture-wide scale.

When there is wide-spread rejection of science....even the CONCEPT of science....that is, the method of developing a hypothesis, coming up with a way to test it, actually doing so, evaluating the results and validating the truth of the theory, then using it to predict future outcomes.....then those people have lost that power, and effectively have been reduced to a hunter-gatherer society, dependent upon their fellows for technology. Those Americans have become third world.

They are striving for the level of the mennonites.
Captain...or Skully

climber
Dec 30, 2012 - 07:14pm PT
Ain't worth it. F*#k you in the neck with a coarse spoon, WesCHRISTAsshole.
cheers?
Dr. F.

Ice climber
SoCal
Dec 30, 2012 - 07:16pm PT
Right Wingers solution..
Cut Education spending

and let the old die, screw them and their so called entitlements, we should pay less in taxes, that's all that matters!!!

But make sure that poor single mothers can't have access to birth control or abortions, because what could be better than more starving mouths to feed

Like I said, they have no answers, only hysterical reactionary knee jerks that make things worse
moosedrool

Trad climber
lost, far away from Poland
Dec 30, 2012 - 07:22pm PT
You got it, Ken M.
coz

Mountain climber
Northern surly
Dec 30, 2012 - 07:23pm PT
Who cares, what people choose to believe in.

Some guys believe in eight arm gods and call others stupid.

I still love them.

John M

climber
Dec 30, 2012 - 07:24pm PT
That jerry Coyne argument is so full of holes its almost ridiculous. He makes unsupported suppositions, such as the increase in books supporting the notion that science and religion are compatible is because of the rise of atheism. Most atheist are science based people, and so supposedly religions want to take charge of science so that atheism won't continue to rise. He completely fails to examine any other hypothesis, and just jumps to this conclusion.

He sounds smart, but he fails as a scientist. He fails to even discuss how polls can be so utterly screwed up because the questions are asked in a leading manner. We have a wonderful example of that from the recent election. Only one pollster got the outcome of the election nearly completely correct, and many many so called important pollsters completely missed the boat.

An example of how those polls could be screwed up is if you asked someone if they believed man evolved from an ape or if they believe that God created them. Most religious people I know would say they God created them. The pollster could then make the argument that these people did not believe in evolution, which would not be true. He makes supposition after supposition without actually supporting anything. He is basically "preaching to the choir", which is also one of the main problems of modern religion. His "God" is Science and he is intolerant of anything that can't be "proven" by means that he can understand. That intolerance is no different from the intolerance of many religious people.

What a sad state of affairs man has come to.

You are correct that man is still extremely ignorant. God save us from men like Jerry coyne.

Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Dec 30, 2012 - 07:26pm PT
And why is it fair to suck us all dry for our own government's gross mismanagement?

This reminds me of the time when we had the Savings and Loans crisis some years back, and they interviewed these people about how the bailout (which had to occur, or everyone would lose their savings) should be paid for.

I remember one person to this day:

"The taxpayers should NOT pay for this, the GOVT should pay for it".

???????????

Why is it fair? Because it is OUR GOVT, and OUR COUNTRY.

The same reason that the Greeks should pay for the debts their gov't ran up, the Spaniards should pay for the debts their gov't ran up, the Icelanders for the debts THEIR gov't ran up.

WHO do YOU think should pay for the Greeks, Spaniards, and Icelanders?

We voted for them, it was our Gov't who spent the money, it is OUR debt, and WE owe it.

It is the HIGHEST LEVEL of ENTITLEMENT to think that SOMEONE ELSE is responsible to take care of that debt!

WE owe that money. By the way, the number one source of those funds are American citizens and companies.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Dec 30, 2012 - 07:28pm PT
John M,

Just one question: Are you drunk?
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Dec 30, 2012 - 07:31pm PT
And why is it fair to suck us all dry for our own government's gross mismanagement?


good question, it is NOT fair

which brings us to the next question:

given that Republican Administrations are directly responsible for by FAR the most of the spending and increases in the national debt, why then would YOU vote Republican?

oh wait, I remember, factual denial, misinformation, no intellectual curiosity to find out

Over 2/3 of our national debt was added by Republicans

photo not found
Missing photo ID#281328
Captain...or Skully

climber
Dec 30, 2012 - 07:31pm PT
Drunk?
John M

climber
Dec 30, 2012 - 07:33pm PT
HfCS. I have no doubt that you would not ask that question to my face. You and I have gone round and round in the past. I believe you are a fool. You believe that I am a fool.

Why don't we leave it at that?
Captain...or Skully

climber
Dec 30, 2012 - 07:35pm PT
There are MANY FOOLS.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Dec 30, 2012 - 07:36pm PT
I don't know you. I don't recall even once going around with you.
Refresh my memory. As for asking you if you're drunk to your face,
believe you me, I'd have no problem whatsoever. Nada. Zilch.

Your post is a rambling nothing.

Refresh my memory. Any hands-on science in your background?
Is science just another ideology, is that it? What makes you tick?

I believe you are a fool. You believe that I am a fool.

Anyone know this man's politics? I don't know if he's a fool,
I don't know him, I just know his latest post was foolish.

.....

C'mon, Skully, knock that off - that page stretching sh!t. ;)
jstan

climber
Dec 30, 2012 - 07:36pm PT
This may be on topic.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7D3_eGaO5k
Mimi

climber
Dec 30, 2012 - 07:37pm PT
Norton, that graph can be challenged I'm sure. Stick to dialogue please.

The problem is if we shrunk government, aka, cut spending, there would be a lag before the private sector really got going again to absorb these unemployed people. And then you have the issue of dealing with government employees at all as they aren't always keen on working in a much more competitive private sector.
moosedrool

Trad climber
lost, far away from Poland
Dec 30, 2012 - 07:40pm PT
now we are back to name calling and the high school drama

bye, bye
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Dec 30, 2012 - 07:41pm PT
photo not found
Missing photo ID#281330
toadgas

Trad climber
los angeles
Dec 30, 2012 - 07:41pm PT
-


looky at Benny Hinn cast devils from these simple Black Folk--


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5GXFJL8NujQ




-


Captain...or Skully

climber
Dec 30, 2012 - 07:47pm PT
Hahaha!..........................I'm not 'Tardian...................Up yours.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Dec 30, 2012 - 07:49pm PT
I stand by the chart Mimi

go ahead, show your outstanding intellect by "challenging" the chart, facts, TRUTH

FACT: you have been conditioned, programmed, and media spoon fed to believe LIES

and the biggest single LIE you believe is that the people you vote for, Republicans are somehow NOT the big spenders, but that the Democrats are

You don't think for yourself, you don't bother to simple google or bing or yahoo search for
"government debt by president or political party" and then READ what you find

I PROVE my sh#t, mimi, from credible sources, unquestioned like CBO

this thread is about ignorance, and by your continued denial of facts and truth well then...
Captain...or Skully

climber
Dec 30, 2012 - 07:53pm PT
Our system is BASED on Ignorance, Duh?..................................................................Still stretchin'.
F*#k Donini's foray into 'Tardism. It'll end in tears.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Dec 30, 2012 - 07:54pm PT
I don't seriously think my good Comrade F desires ONLY tax increases as an approach to the fiscal problems.

I believe he understands a balanced approach is best.

I can't speak for him, but I believe that he is as frustrated as I am that Republicans have staked out a position where tax increases on people who will not feel it, are absolutely untouchable.....but taking money and resources from people who are barely getting by is totally ok. "squeezing blood from a turnip"

It is infuriating.

I would take square aim at defense.

The F22 doesn't work. It has no mission. The only people it has killed has been Americans. It can't be flown safely.

The F35 doesn't work, and doesn't appear to be able to be made to work. The Heritage Foundation has recommended buying the non-working aircraft, and working to fix them, later. You wonder who paid them off?
It will cost $1 TRILLION dollars just for this aircraft.

Why are we spending billions of dollars to pay engineers who can't build aircraft?

Let's spend ONE billion dollars building the next generation: stealth drone fighters. Cheaper, faster, expendable.
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Dec 30, 2012 - 07:56pm PT
HFCS,
John M is Moosie.

...routinely respectful, I suggest he's not deserving of biting remarks
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Dec 30, 2012 - 08:05pm PT
John M is Moosie.

Oh. Hi Moosie!

Sorry for the "biting" remark. But you have to admit worse things are said even on CNN than an "Are you drunk?" - that's pretty tame by many a standard.

P.S. I don't think you are a fool. For the record. :)

You are correct that man is still extremely ignorant. God save us from men like Jerry coyne.

But you are "wrong" about the aforequoted. There. How's that? :)

.....

Scully, go to bed now.

.....

jstan,

except for his opinion on free will, Michio Kaku gets the A grade. But, really, what do I know, just a fool here who occasionally proves it by climbing cliffs...

In return, you might like this one...

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-18560_162-57559345/breakthrough-robotic-limbs-moved-by-the-mind/
Dr. F.

Ice climber
SoCal
Dec 30, 2012 - 08:35pm PT
Ken
Yes, a balanced approach

Raising taxes, and cutting spending ON things like Corporate welfare, the military, military bases in foreign Countries that want us out, subsidies for big oil

There is so much we can cut, But the Republicans refuse to debate those things, they only go after social programs and services that Democrats support

Like Labor, the environmental, science, health care, education police, fire, social security, these are the Republican targets for cutting,
instead of things that should be cut

and why?? The Republicans have sold out to the lobbyists,
They are the party that caters to the Special Interests, and sells out the people, they don't care if you get sick or lose your job, too bad for you, now go away.

That's why we think you (any Republican) must have a problem, how can you support a party that works against YOU, and only strings you along by lies and propaganda
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Dec 30, 2012 - 08:41pm PT
Ken M. & Dr. F.

Your thoughts are worth repeating!

Ken
Yes, a balanced approach

Raising taxes, and cutting spending ON things like Corporate welfare, the military, military bases in foreign Countries that want us out, subsidies for big oil

There is so much we can cut, But the Republicans refuse to debate those things, they only go after social programs and services that Democrats support

Like Labor, the environmental, science, health care, education police, fire, social security, these are the Republican targets for cutting,
instead of things that should be cut

and why?? The Republicans have sold out to the lobbyists,
They are the party that caters to the Special Interests, and sells out the people, they don't care if you get sick or lose your job, too bad for you, now go away.

That's why we think you (any Republican) must have a problem, how can you support a party that works against YOU, and only strings you along by lies and propaganda
Malemute

Ice climber
the ghost
Dec 30, 2012 - 09:13pm PT
If 2/3 of the debt was caused by Republican governments, then 2/3 of it should be paid by Republican VOTERS !!!

Fair is Fair
Mimi

climber
Dec 30, 2012 - 09:27pm PT
Really sorry Jim that your thread was hijacked and most of the later posts should have been logged on the Republicans Suck thread.
bit'er ol' guy

climber
the past
Dec 30, 2012 - 09:36pm PT

LAME.
The Warbler

climber
the edge of America
Dec 30, 2012 - 09:36pm PT
I doubt JD disapproves, Mimi

But I'd appreciate a heartfelt apology in your next post
MisterE

Social climber
Dec 30, 2012 - 09:40pm PT
Who doesn't love a good troll - even if it is vapid by the JDF standard ?
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Dec 30, 2012 - 10:03pm PT
What, nobody caught the 60 Minutes piece tonight on mindbrain-controlled robotic arms? It was very impressive. Applied bioengineering rocks!

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-18560_162-57559345/breakthrough-robotic-limbs-moved-by-the-mind/

Just show me where the ghost in the machine is, I want to weigh it and take samples of its phlogiston. ;)
Riley Wyna

Trad climber
A crack near you
Dec 30, 2012 - 10:05pm PT
http://www.democraticunderground.com/101789134
MisterE

Social climber
Dec 30, 2012 - 10:09pm PT
What, nobody caught the 60 Minutes piece tonight on mindbrain-controlled robotic arms? It was very impressive. Applied bioengineering rocks!

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-18560_162-57559345/breakthrough-robotic-limbs-moved-by-the-mind/

Just tell me where the ghost in the machine is? ;)

This is SO book 7 of Edgar Rice Burroughs John Carter of Mars.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Dec 30, 2012 - 11:21pm PT
This is not off topic.

Also, who the heck posted something that causes me to have to scroll right to see other posts?

Stop it. I don't think it is funny. Be considerate. I do not have a 48" screen computer monitor.
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Dec 31, 2012 - 06:35am PT
if you study english, you'll learn about the royal "we" and the editorial "we". supertopo seems to be developing a new one, the scientific "we", as in "we know" this and "we know" that.

that seems to be the stance of the OP here and the off-topic groupies he has attracted. at least the real boobs of supertopo are sticking to the flypaper on that other thread.

mighty hiker's wikipedia reference dealing with the construction of the pyramids is a predictable piece of speciousness, based on the orthodox speculations of egyptology, which is perhaps the most inexact science on earth.

when it comes to the big pyramids, you have to understand a number of important parameters. huge blocks quarried way upriver at aswan. no watercraft other than elegant reed or plank boats, mostly reed, since planks had to come from lebanon or the atlas. no modern cutting tools. bronze was the hardest metal. the hittites were just beginning to mess with iron.

you also have to understand the precision, as well as the volume, of the rock work, especially in the khufu pyramid. have you guys ever worked rock? i mean worked it. the little work i've done requires diamond blades, diamond abrasives, and multi-horsepower motors, and cutting an inch or polishing a square inch seems to take forever.

and then, no wheels, baby. MH's wiki article talks about a depiction of the moving a monument block by sledge. that's pretty small potatoes compared to the work that had to be done at giza. multiply that wikipedia "explanation" by the hundreds of thousands, and you might be able to build the khufu or the khafre. but, sonofagun, there just isn't any ready archaeological evidence for this work having been done. all we have is the fait accompli.

a couple other interesting curiosities. the height of the khufu pyramid is 2 pi of the perimeter. likewise, in another anomalous giant pyramid, at teotihuacan, the height is 4 pi of the perimeter. coinkydink? or someone trying to tell us something? wiki will tell you that pi was cooked up by archimedes in 250 b.c.

please pick on werner here, since he brought this up:

Thousands of years ago science was very advanced.

Today in the so called modern age it's gone into the cave man cave.

Devolved, devolution.

Some day in 428,000 years they will wake up again from their slumber ......
eeyonkee

Trad climber
Golden, CO
Dec 31, 2012 - 07:14am PT
One thing that we know of based on how evolution works is that we humans have not evolved significantly since the time of the pyramid-building Egyptions. There is just not enough elapsed time. If you could somehow teleport a human from the third or fourth century B.C. and raise him/her from infancy in today's world (say, first world), that person would almost certainly fall within today's range of intelligence. So, it's not that they were unintelligent. It's just that they did not have background knowledge in all sorts of disciplines that we have today. So, it's not surprizing that they came up with some seemingly amazing solutions to problems that interested them. It's also not surprizing that they had no idea of things like the true age of the earth.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Dec 31, 2012 - 07:25am PT
So, it's not that they were unintelligent. It's just that they did not have background knowledge in all sorts of disciplines that we have today. So, it's not surprizing that they came up with some seemingly amazing solutions to problems that interested them. It's also not surprizing that they had no idea of things like the true age of the earth.

dave goodwin

climber
carson city, nv
Dec 31, 2012 - 07:28am PT
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ahlWufJqcSQ
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Dec 31, 2012 - 08:18am PT
Dave G, that video was AWESOME!!!
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Reno, Nuh VAAAA duh
Dec 31, 2012 - 08:30am PT
It's a troll!
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Dec 31, 2012 - 09:37am PT
Inside the pants, you say?

Brilliant!
zBrown

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Dec 31, 2012 - 09:41am PT
The bus doesn't stop here.

jstan

climber
Dec 31, 2012 - 09:58am PT
And why is it fair to suck us all dry for our own government's gross mismanagement?

Governmental debt should be paid by the populations who benefitted. In a government managed appropriately that population is the citizenry.

While this seems simple and implementable, who should pay for the Viet Nam War? The Iraq War?
And who decides?

A more specific question. Who should pay for the $21,000,000,000 it cost to save General Motors? Many people benefitted. Including a few individuals enjoying executive jets and bonuses rewarding them for their astute management. And how should they pay?

A modest proposal. When a corporation fails or even has their lobbyists involved in promoting a failing project, the corporation should lose some of its freedom. The freedom to make failing decisions. The simple prospect that freedom might be lost could entirely change corporate willingness to undertake clearly risky ventures.

Instead of selling its GM stock at a loss the US should have retained the stock and taken a position on GM's board. If nothing else this would have caused that board to cease being a creature existing solely at the pleasure of the CEO. A very desirable result.

When, in the view of the GM's National Board Member, the company has been able to reform its management personnel and processes, and the stock has regained its value, the US might liquidate its position.

Edit:

Wes: I was addressing Governmental Debt specifically. The environmental debt you discuss is just one part of the more general practice called "externalization". Getting someone else to pay for something that benefits you. Like not including the cost of radioactive waste management in the cost of nuclear power. Disposal is a term not applicable here. The waste will have to managed and maintained into the indefinite future. The carbon cycle is perhaps an even more important example.

(The term "disposal" might be used if we send our waste into intergalactic space. I rule out depositing them into the sun because of the, very remote, possibility of unintended consequences. The cost of this disposal would have to include remediation costs in the event of a launch failure.)
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Dec 31, 2012 - 10:26am PT
Governmental debt should be paid by the populations who benefitted.

Impossible. Since the industrial revolution (and the democratic revolution of the 18th and 19th century) western civilizations have extracted a debt from the natural world that cannot be repaid in many many lifetimes and encouraged the rest of the world to "progress" with us. For the last 300 years most of the human population has been racking up environmental debt that simply cannot be repaid. The monetary debt is an illusion designed to hide the truth.
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Dec 31, 2012 - 10:49am PT
America the Ignorant...on topic for this forum

(In more ways than one . . . .)


If only intelligence only mattered. What problems have been once-and-for-all solved by the legions of so-called "intelligent people?"

People of intelligence should see that:

(i) samsara / "the human condition" can't be fixed (i.e., the world of limited resources, people's attachments / aversions, the dysfunctional over-riding need for achievement, rampant self-aggrandizement . . . )

(ii) intelligence has not been found to be highly correlated to happiness or peace / serenity--but in fact the opposite*

(iii) intelligence causes just as many problems as it intends to fix (e.g., "unintended consequences" that have resulted in almost every large-scale social "solution")

(iv) the so-called smarts that come from traditional educational programs (e.g., college) seem most associated with (and help to create) bourgeoise materialism.



*Burroughs & Rindfleich, "Materialism and Well-Being: A conflicting values perspective", Journal of Consumer Research, Vol 29, December 2002. (A meta-study of 200+ empirical studies)

survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Dec 31, 2012 - 10:56am PT
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Dec 31, 2012 - 11:01am PT
intelligence has not been found to be highly correlated to happiness or peace / serenity--but in fact the opposite*

MikeL, I think you may have misread the Boroughs & Rindfleisch paper? I just flew through it... might have missed it... but it appears to be about material possessions and I don't think it mentions intelligence at all.





it's full of holes
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Dec 31, 2012 - 11:05am PT
"If we had more people like William Burroughs this country wouldn't be such a f*#ked pansy ass mess of a hell hole teetering on the edge of a take over by limp dick Liberal minded morons and or Dickless religious zealots..."
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Dec 31, 2012 - 11:20am PT
Can I respectfully take the opposite stance, MikeL?

If it was not for "intelligence", we would still be living in the trees

If it was not for intelligence we would not be living in climate controlled houses and driving reliable cars

we would not be able have our knees replaced, or be able to live past around 45

we would still be sawing off limbs without anesthesia and dying fast of heart attacks


I'll take intelligence for 10 Alex
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Dec 31, 2012 - 11:50am PT
Ed wrote, I assume flippantly,

will evolution make me money?
no.
who cares about it?

Paleontology is a big part of petroleum geology of some areas, particularly the gulf of mexico. So yeah...it helps make money. Without it, it is hard to tell what age of rocks you are in.

This isn't so difficult on the onshore Pennsylvanian or Cretaceous basins. Those basins are like a layer cake and the correlations are easier.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Dec 31, 2012 - 12:44pm PT
You don't have to believe in evolution or understand how it works to put the fossils in the right order. I went to school with an amazing mineralogist who had damn near every mineral formula you could imagine memorize, knew loads about mineral assemblages, and remembered the layout of buildings based on Miller indices... he still insisted the Earth was 6,000 years old, evolution was designed by god to test his faith, and all that stuff he knew about mineralogy was some kind of elaborate code from god.

Again, that paradigm is ENTIRELY unsustainable... at least until they reinterpret/rewrite their holy books (AGAIN) to include renunciation of material possessions, respect for life, and good will towards all mankind...
rectorsquid

climber
Lake Tahoe
Dec 31, 2012 - 01:09pm PT
Can I respectfully take the opposite stance, MikeL?

If it was not for "intelligence", we would still be living in the trees

If it was not for intelligence we would not be living in climate controlled houses and driving reliable cars

we would not be able have our knees replaced, or be able to live past around 45

we would still be sawing off limbs without anesthesia and dying fast of heart attacks


I'll take intelligence for 10 Alex

None of those things guarantee survival of our species. Plus, living in trees and not living to be old and crabby might be a good thing. Intelligence just makes us think that we are better than everything else, but are we? Are we better off being smart or will it be our downfall?

Dinosaurs were big. It was their downfall but I'm sure that they enjoyed ruling the world. They dominated much longer than we have.

Dave
Riley Wyna

Trad climber
A crack near you
Dec 31, 2012 - 01:11pm PT
Riley and Donini, about spelling bees. They require little critical thinking

Don't get me wrong - I am all about critical thinking and it is virtually gone in the ER's I now work in.
But here is my thinking - to win a national spelling bee requires a massive amount of knowledge and the ability to think on the fly concerning the origin of the word, etc - there is an incredible amount going on in the brain of very good speller. no?
I dunno - perhaps it is mostly memorization?
I'm a ridiculously poor speller - but an exceptionally good critical thinker.....
You give me something to think about - perhaps it is just learning rules and memorizing...hmmmm

I have always been impressed with the Spelling Bee movies - those kids seemed incredibly bright.
I would be curious to find out what top national spellers go on to for careers.
I know a few spelling bee champs who are actually pretty dumb - come to think of it..

hmm - perhaps it is analogous to memorizing the multiplication tables - and never developing a greater understanding of the relationship between numbers?

Laurence Fishburne - you lied to me!
toadgas

Trad climber
los angeles
Dec 31, 2012 - 01:12pm PT
-


benny hinn: let the bodies hit the floor SMACKDOWN

vvvvvvv


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iLH7LHrYpLs




:/









.
go-B

climber
Hebrews 1:3
Dec 31, 2012 - 01:19pm PT
The Nature of Intelligence

"As human beings, our deepest appreciation is for things that nurture our deepest qualities. And there is no deeper human quality than intelligence.

In our fast-paced, high-powered society, good-sense intelligence is being replaced by artificial intelligence. We are accomplishing more than ever before because we have to think less than ever before.

And yet this explosion of accomplishment is not creating a happier society, only a busier one."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rabbi-manis-friedman/the-nature-of-intelligence_b_2332606.html

http://www.rabbifriedman.org/learning-something-new

BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Dec 31, 2012 - 01:24pm PT
Base, Happy New Year!

, it is hard to tell what age of rocks you are in.

Hey Base didn't the Planet and all its elements arrive in this solar system
all at once? I mean is not the "dirt" of the world all the same age?

Maybe if you would describe to me in a 1000 words or less how you can tell
when a pile of dirt formed into a rock? Or did the Earth start out as all rock and erode into dirt?

And whats the theory of this "layer cake" way of predicting how old rock is? Does it go, the deeper it is the older it is?

Also, do you have any oppinion about all the continents once being joined
together?

Jus Ask'in For Some Educate'in
BB
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Dec 31, 2012 - 01:32pm PT
Perhaps not appreciated, is that in every other aspect of the natural world, what defines the relative order of species, are physical attributes.

Human progenitors were NOT the top of the food chain. Intelligence changed that, at least on our planet.
Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
Dec 31, 2012 - 01:35pm PT
When the rest of the world talks about "that country" with all of the religious fanatics and psychos, the're not talking about Iran or Afganistan or Pakistan.

They're talking about the United States of America.
Brian in SLC

Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
Dec 31, 2012 - 01:50pm PT
Ed: Robert Hutchings Goddard.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Dec 31, 2012 - 01:55pm PT
yes, some dinos were big, and our best guess is a big ass asteroid was their undoing

yes they were the top of earth's food chain for millions of years

and yes our human existence on this earth may not last anywhere near as long as theirs

they got this new thing called carbon dating that does indeed tell us how old stuff is

we can send an unmanned spacecraft traveling for months to Mars, land itself, take probes and insure it is operative for years doing scientific research, pretty good!

although we cannot "yet" create molecular life, but we are have a good idea of how life on our planet came into being and evolved to our present state

we no longer believe the earth is flat, we can split atoms, and we for sure know that the Grand Canyon and Half Dome are a hell of lot older than 6000 years

we can't raise the dead with incantations, but we can cure many diseases

our old and poor don't have to suffer in poverty and starvation anymore, we know how to mitigate human misery through our "intelligence"

Intelligence for 20 Alex


WBraun

climber
Dec 31, 2012 - 01:59pm PT
and our best guess is a big ass asteroid was their undoing

Just see the scientific process.

One big guess.

Just guess and pass it on as so called intelligent knowledge which all the fools lap up like stupid dogs ......
Brian in SLC

Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
Dec 31, 2012 - 02:06pm PT
I'll toss in a couple more scientists working before WWII:

Warren Lee McCabe
Ernest Thiele
John H. Perry

Nice essay, Ed.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Dec 31, 2012 - 02:10pm PT
One big guess.

Albeit a much more accurate guess than religion.....



Science disproves itself all the time and moves along to the next theory, and the most important part is that it's ok with that.

Religion depends on the same fairy tales FOREVER!
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Dec 31, 2012 - 02:12pm PT
That's right, Werner

It is ONLY 2012 and we don't know "everything" yet, and maybe we never will

so yes, some things science has to "guess" at

so what? you are a master at stating the obvious, rest up and try again

If you think your childish "criticism" of science is somehow valid, then stick to talking to your old man in the forest and all your vague and useless mental speculating

oh, and Werner?

I see you are starting up again on "stalking" my posts, when are you going to grow up?
WBraun

climber
Dec 31, 2012 - 02:18pm PT
Norton

I wasn't talking to you, you ignorant overgrown whiny cry baby.

Man are you stupid .....
10b4me

Boulder climber
Somewhere on 395
Dec 31, 2012 - 02:19pm PT
I guess my question is, do future generations want to be intelligent?

Look at the people around you. most are living day to day. as long as they
are doing their job, getting paid, and are happy. do you think they care if they're intelligent?

Look at the younger kids also. they are not seeing what's going on around them. they only see what's on a screen six inches in front of them.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Dec 31, 2012 - 02:25pm PT
lots of guessing on both sides isnt there...

Yup..

Do i believe MEN can relate a story accurately over such a length of time as to lend any point by point Factual reference of any religions book? No,, as stories cant even be related accurately over a week between 10 of em.

Not to say they al dont contain facts, but whimsy is an un-identifiable ting in the hearts of those that wrote them. So we get all manner of interpretations.


But even the natural people of this land , long ago, held dear their beliefs and their Gods before any Euro-or modern influence. Much of this was just acceptable societal rules. but they had those beliefs, and in many ways resemble some of the far eastern beliefs of a soul and its passage into the spirit world. Did my Choctaw relatives have contact with far eastern people LONG LONG ago?? Or did they come up with those similar conclusions exclusively ?

Theres as much mystery left in science as religion..

Personally, i just keep tailoring the factual evidence of evolution into a less strict interpretation of my own God..After all he is a personal choice..And i can live the best of both of those "worlds", while chucking the non sense and miss interpretation.


Fpr example: God created man in his image..Image being totally a self opinion right? What if God at that time thought of himself as a slug or some multi cell blob never yet identified? Who knows right?

The god of Nature is strong in the Choctaw- as it should be. Who knows right?


But as climbers, we get treated to views most of the rest of the world never see in person. Those moments of Alpen glow splash that make you stop in yur tracks - or that brush by from a wandering bobcat allowing you a quick picture are moments, where there has to be a BETTER thing going on than we can see/smell/touch or hear.
go-B

climber
Hebrews 1:3
Dec 31, 2012 - 02:48pm PT
Twilight Zone / A Nice Place To Visit
http://www.tubeplus.me/movie/1485560/The_Twilight_Zone/season_1/episode_28/A_Nice_Place_to_Visit/%22

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Nice_Place_to_Visit

Climbing is like learning, it's not just not just in reaching the summit or knowing all the answers, but in the journey!
Riley Wyna

Trad climber
A crack near you
Dec 31, 2012 - 04:46pm PT
I guess my question is, do future generations want to be intelligent?

Look at the people around you. most are living day to day. as long as they
are doing their job, getting paid, and are happy. do you think they care if they're intelligent?

Look at the younger kids also. they are not seeing what's going on around them. they only see what's on a screen six inches in front of them.

Yes, there are many incredibly boring, incurious and uninteresting dregs in the world - but there are still many, or at least some, who are not.
Nohea

Trad climber
Living Outside the Statist Quo
Dec 31, 2012 - 04:58pm PT
I have lost my faith in mankind, that's for sure but last year I started a debate club at my high school and now each month when I go to the tournaments, seeing, listening to these kids, well it's great and it gives me hope but what % of HS kids are into debate? <1?

Here's the current topics

Aloha and Hau'oli Makahiki Hou
Will


Policy Debate
2012-2013 Topic
Resolved: The United States federal government should substantially increase its transportation infrastructure investment in the United States.

Lincoln-Douglas Debate
November/December Topic
Resolved: The United States ought to guarantee universal health care for its citizens.

January/February Topic
Resolved: Rehabilitation ought to be valued above retribution in the United States criminal justice system.


Public Forum Debate
December Topic
Resolved: The United States should prioritize tax increases over spending cuts.
(480 schools voted for the December resolution.)

January Topic
Resolved: On balance, the Supreme Court decision in Citizens United v. Federal Election Commission harms the election process.
(418 schools voted for the January resolution.)

Dr. F.

Ice climber
SoCal
Dec 31, 2012 - 05:20pm PT
300 years ago

People thought that rats were spontaneously created from trash
Mice from rotten grain
Leave meat out, and flys will be created
If you freeze water hard enough, it becomes a quartz crystal
Lynx piss forms into tourmaline crystals

Only science was able to prove these tales wrong
We spent 1200 years in the Dark ages because of Christian (right wing) mind control, with the belief that knowledge is evil

The right wingers want to keep us ignorant.
The rest of us want to learn, progress and evolve into the future
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Dec 31, 2012 - 05:37pm PT
Worth reposting since it's one of the most liberal sounding things Ron has ever posted! Mexicans have feelings too!!!

lots of guessing on both sides isnt there...

Yup..

Do i believe MEN can relate a story accurately over such a length of time as to lend any point by point Factual reference of any religions book? No,, as stories cant even be related accurately over a week between 10 of em.

Not to say they al dont contain facts, but whimsy is an un-identifiable ting in the hearts of those that wrote them. So we get all manner of interpretations.


But even the natural people of this land , long ago, held dear their beliefs and their Gods before any Euro-or modern influence. Much of this was just acceptable societal rules. but they had those beliefs, and in many ways resemble some of the far eastern beliefs of a soul and its passage into the spirit world. Did my Choctaw relatives have contact with far eastern people LONG LONG ago?? Or did they come up with those similar conclusions exclusively ?

Theres as much mystery left in science as religion..

Personally, i just keep tailoring the factual evidence of evolution into a less strict interpretation of my own God..After all he is a personal choice..And i can live the best of both of those "worlds", while chucking the non sense and miss interpretation.


donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 31, 2012 - 05:42pm PT
Nohea....I never had any faith in mankind because I don't have "faith" period. I would rather have my beliefs formed by a logical interpretation of the evidence at hand.
Dr. F.

Ice climber
SoCal
Dec 31, 2012 - 05:47pm PT
I'm written off the Human race long ago

and only after giving up completely, have I been able to come back and try and do what ever I can do to try to at least change One person's mind to be on the right side of humanity.

Maybe I will be lucky, and help 2 people change course and steer away from being part of the problem, to not be the cancer that kills us all off
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Dec 31, 2012 - 05:56pm PT
I never had any faith in mankind because I don't have "faith" period.

Only one speaking or thinking from inside the religious framework defines "faith" in this manner.

Food for thought: Do you really want to surrender the basic word "faith" that is so ingrained in our culture and language (e.g., our music, our literature even outside supernaturalisms) to the religions and religionists which are falling out of favor anyways?

Change the conversation. Take a page from Frank Luntz or George Lakoff. Anytime you want you can change it up, and define "faith" in proactive, progressive secular terms (meaning trust, for better or worse, good or bad, blind or empirical, whatever). Easy to do if (a) you're not in church, (b) you don't buy into religious framing to begin with.

Outside religion, do I have "faith" - an empirical, evidence-based "faith" - in my rope and sit harness? Yes.

Did I let go-B or Jerry Falwell or any supernaturalist define my definition or employment of "faith" in crazy religious or theological terms? Hell no.

Faith, like belief, is just too good a word to let loose. Or to surrender to any ol time supernaturalist, ol time dogma, or ol' time institution. To do so, in terms of strategy, if that's your interest at all (and I think it is), either in regard to communications or to social movements - currently underway to push beyond religions and theologies of old - would be counterproductive.

The bogey here is "blind faith" or "religious faith" - not "faith" in general. There. I said my piece.

Just think about it.



And happy new year! :)
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Dec 31, 2012 - 06:43pm PT
All of the knowledge in the universe isn't going to help us if we keep breeding at current rates. Some of the natural resources such as oil are now so expensive that many third world countries totally missed the boat and will probably remain third world.

There are other things, such as copper. At one point, you could get a fairly close estimate of a country's GDP just by their copper consumption.

The U.S. has already gone through much of its natural resources. I can make a good argument that we became a dominating force in the world simply due to our abundant natural resources, such as oil. We have more oil than any other country on the planet other than Saudi Arabia. Unfortunately, we have already used 190 billion barrels, which is most of it. We won WWII simply because we had oil and the Germans and Japanese didn't. They tried to get it, but barely failed.

Many nations have exceeded the carrying capacity and live in endless poverty. The planet actually has an expiration date as far as resources go.

Taken in this context, population growth vs. carrying capacity is a far worse problem than ignorance.

The wiki page is fascinating. Population growth rate is slowing:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_growth
Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
Dec 31, 2012 - 06:49pm PT
I think these morons are skipping science classes to study ancient mythology (i.e., the bible).

Their idiocy is mind boggling. And these simpletons spew there religious propoganda to each other, and they all feed on the crap.

It's sad, because religion and science are not mutually exclusive. Though I take the bible with a monster grain of salt, it's amazing the similarity between the big bang theory and "let there be light."

The meek shall inherit the earth. What God means is the morons will breed like hampsters and the earth will become over-run with religious idiots. The second Dark Age is beginning.
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Dec 31, 2012 - 06:51pm PT
After actually watching some of the lectures that HFCS posted, I thought that religion and science could co-exist.

In reality, they can't.

I suppose that they could get along, though.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 31, 2012 - 06:54pm PT
That's what Galileo thought.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Dec 31, 2012 - 06:56pm PT
BASE, before watching or after watching?

If you enjoyed Jerry Coyne, cool.
In my view, where they are not compatible is simply in the truth-claims - which they both involve.

For fun, here's a hopeful sign: NYC Hits Record Low Murder Rate In 2012
http://gothamist.com/2012/12/28/nyc_hits_record_low_murder_rate_in.php


Good discourses and debates.
Happy New Years Everybody!
go-B

climber
Hebrews 1:3
Dec 31, 2012 - 07:02pm PT
photo not found
Missing photo ID#281542
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Dec 31, 2012 - 07:08pm PT
Jerry Coyne's argument is very clear. They can't get along.

I know Christian scientists who do good work in geosciences and from what I can tell, they take the whole Genesis thing as allegorical.

Belief without evidence doesn't work. End of story.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Dec 31, 2012 - 07:09pm PT
Wener, you are incredibly stupid

you QUOTED my post in YOUR reply post, go back and LOOK at it, idiot wind

and NOW you say you were not replying to me


did you get dropped on your head as an infant?

you really are childlike

and knock off your stalking sh#t or I will be all over your lost in the forest crap
WBraun

climber
Dec 31, 2012 - 07:40pm PT
you really are childlike

Thanks for the compliment.

You should become childlike too instead of an old worn out sourpuss that you've become ......
toadgas

Trad climber
los angeles
Dec 31, 2012 - 07:47pm PT
SCREW ALL U WEAK LIZARDS!!! ...AMERICA HAS THE CAN-DO ATTITUDE AND WILL ALWAYS FIGURE IT OUT ...USA!! USA!! USA IS NUMBER ONE!!!!!
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Dec 31, 2012 - 08:17pm PT
I find it frustrating that the anti-evolution tact has gained so much ground.

I was trained by three of the great evolutionists of the last century, and consider myself very lucky to have encountered them. I recently reviewed some of the words of one of them, Francisco Ayala, who was an ordained Catholic Priest.

I find it odd that people who have very superficial understanding of things, who have not studied them in great depth, discard words of people who've spent their lives in study, simply out of hand.

He says:

With Catholics, I take out the Pope's address to the Pontifical Academy of Sciences in October 1996 where he endorses evolutionary teachings.

http://www.ewtn.com/library/papaldoc/jp961022.htm

Pope John Paul II:

In his encyclical Humani Generis (1950), my predecessor Pius XII has already affirmed that there is no conflict between evolution and the doctrine of the faith regarding man and his vocation, provided that we do not lose sight of certain fixed points.......

.....It is important to set proper limits to the understanding of Scripture, excluding any unseasonable interpretations which would make it mean something which it is not intended to mean. In order to mark out the limits of their own proper fields, theologians and those working on the exegesis of the Scripture need to be well informed regarding the results of the latest scientific research.....

Today, more than a half-century after the appearance of that encyclical, some new findings lead us toward the recognition of evolution as more than an hypothesis.* In fact it is remarkable that this theory has had progressively greater influence on the spirit of researchers, following a series of discoveries in different scholarly disciplines. The convergence in the results of these independent studies—which was neither planned nor sought—constitutes in itself a significant argument in favor of the theory.

....The theory proves its validity by the measure to which it can be verified. It is constantly being tested against the facts; when it can no longer explain these facts, it shows its limits and its lack of usefulness, and it must be revised......................

From the Vatican, October 22, 1996, John Paul II

Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Dec 31, 2012 - 09:05pm PT
yeah that was Pope John Paul ll.

You sure as hell won't catch Ratshitslinger talking like that.


Toadgas - remember to put a little smily face or a ): or something to indicate you're just joshin' around. I got it - that was funny!
Jim Clipper

climber
from: forests to tree farms
Dec 31, 2012 - 09:05pm PT
Would the Bible be more believable if it had talked about Martians?
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Dec 31, 2012 - 09:10pm PT
They do. Thats what angels are. But no one would groove on it if they lookeed like this:

mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Dec 31, 2012 - 09:24pm PT
Gay martians are in it with the aliens.
PotatoHead

Trad climber
Nunya,ID
Dec 31, 2012 - 10:36pm PT
If 2/3 of the debt was caused by Republican governments, then 2/3 of it should be paid by Republican VOTERS

What a bunch of BS!! The country is basically 50%/50% Dem/Rep. Has been for some time.It takes more than a one vote majority to get something done in this country. That means someone on YOUR team punted to the Rep's...or vice-versa to get something they wanted(to get paid for). Quit crying about the Republicans and Fox news. 99% of the information we all get is fear-mongering BS meant to pay for commercials on TV or the internet. Fox, CNN, NBC, etc...take your pic. Where are you getting your facts people? The only truthful info you're going to get is how big Kim Kardashian's ass is getting. 50% Dem + 50% Rep = 100% Sucking Lobbyist/Corporate America Teet.

Happy New Year!!
Yer gonna die!!!

Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Dec 31, 2012 - 11:27pm PT
I am still astonished by the concept that the country goes to war, and people expect that there will be no personal financial sacrifice....none.

We can go about our business as though nothing is happening.

In fact, two wars.

Nobody has to pitch in, in any way.

<shaking my head>
Wayno

Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
Dec 31, 2012 - 11:54pm PT
Amerika the Intolerant. Ignorance is always relative and never absolute.
Degaine

climber
Jan 1, 2013 - 03:21am PT
Ken M wrote:
I am still astonished by the concept that the country goes to war, and people expect that there will be no personal financial sacrifice....none.

We can go about our business as though nothing is happening.

In fact, two wars.

Nobody has to pitch in, in any way.

I'm just a surprised as you, Ken. Especially given the Bush administration, Republican, and right-wing rhetoric and, well, dishonesty that got us in to each war. Not to mention their false criticisms of the left for not supporting the troops and not being patriotic all the while requiring no sacrifice from anyone and putting the wars on the credit card.

Republican lip-service to being fiscally responsible is truly Orwellian, and those individuals who gobble it up (many on this forum) are part of the ignorant to which donini is referring to.
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Jan 1, 2013 - 06:24am PT
for educated roman catholics, evolution and belief have never been at odds, thanks to the thinking of pierre teilhard de chardin, whom i reference rather habitually here, but who seems to stay off the mental radar for anyone raised protestant. i don't think ken is catholic, else he'd be referencing teilhard as well, rather than that charlatan JP2, the "w" of the catholic church.

um, getting back to the important aspects of egyptology, the case for, shall we call it, deeply ancient civilization was bolstered a few years ago when a geologist named robert schoch proved rather conclusively--at least to fellow geologists--that the sphinx at giza has been water-eroded bigtime. like back to the last ice age. needless to say, it was very upsetting to the egyptological community, such as it is, and its archaeo-anthropo-historio brethren.

something called the motorboat phenomenon occurs in such circumstances. at annual society confabs, the disturbing paper always gets on the agenda, you can count on that. it'll be the only interesting thing there. then, as from so many old evinrudes badly in need of overhaul, a great "but, but, but, but ..." arises. afterwards, back at their universities, they knuckle down to damning the upstart heresy and building puffy alliances with their fellow orthodox. if you think this resembles the evolution of religion, you're becoming less ignorant.

how many people think werner is a sourpuss himself? i can't decide.
Riley Wyna

Trad climber
A crack near you
Jan 1, 2013 - 06:31am PT


As usual we end up in the gutter talking about stupid superstitious gibberish - Santa claus etc..

From another great ST thread
But really any conversation on American ignorance should start with this video and move forward - not backwards to stories of Zeus and Beelzebub - if we are going to have any chance at all.


Here is my summation of this video.

three letters

W A R

Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Jan 1, 2013 - 06:33am PT
whatsamatter, riley, don't like war? generates lots of business for nurses.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Jan 1, 2013 - 08:24am PT
re: "faith", different species of "faith"

Overheard last night:
"Life rewards faith, hard work and honesty."

This particular use of "faith" wasn't said in any religious context, it certainly wasn't meant as any blind faith, any blind religious faith. It was meant in regard to trust or in regard to confidence.

But this is not to say that faith or trust itself can't be a tricky concept or thing. My niece was way too trusting at one point last year; she suffered the consequences. Today I think her trust (or faith) is not so easily given and of much higher quality.

The blind trust (or blind faith) that Christianity or Islam specializes in, and foists on its adherents, is of the worst case sort.
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Jan 1, 2013 - 08:39am PT
then, as from so many old evinrudes badly in need of overhaul,



poor old evinrude. Never quite made it up to the Merc or Johnston standard of reliability.


Today I think her trust (or faith) is not so easily given and of much higher quality.


Lucky her huh? I think its a fair trade - A little "lost innocence" in exchange for a truer understanding of trust. I've had mote than one conversation with my kids where i've had to endure their scorn and ridicule for suggesting that even with family trust is earned. They seemed to think that I was blood bound to trust them with all kinds of idiocy. At 17 and 19 they don't struggle with this concept as much thank god.

Organized religion reminds me of a six year old trying to pull a fast one on a 4 year old.





rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Jan 1, 2013 - 09:48am PT
Evolution vs. creationism doesn't bother me that much...it's the lunatics that interpret the bible literally and reproduce like rabbits while feeling smug and chummy about stripping the planet of it's natural resources...then to make matters worse , these folks vote against anything with common sense such as higher gas mileage , solar energy , avoiding global conflicts....The lunatics have a hand on the steering wheel and are driving the bus off the cliff ...This is a close description of ignorance i think...?
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Jan 1, 2013 - 10:48am PT
MikeL, I think you may have misread the Boroughs & Rindfleisch paper? I just flew through it... might have missed it... but it appears to be about material possessions and I don't think it mentions intelligence at all.

Exactly right, mechanist. My thought was invisible and implicit in the reference. My screw-up. Here is my thought: It seems to me that modern materialism is driven by higher levels of education, technology, and science. People have more access to materials (products, services, ego building "things") through modern materialism--all of which come about through what / how people think what intelligence is or how it is talked about. Verstehen Sie? Materialism seems very highly correlated to "intelligence" as it is typically talked about.

NO slander intended (really, guys!), but people like Ed, HFCS, MH2, Base, Survival, Norton, Dr. F., Bruce Kay, and most others here on ST seem to think that content (stuff, scientific facts, concepts) are the signs or artifacts of intelligence. That is how I read their posts. Intelligence generates "things that we know." Intelligence is, here in this form, discursive thinking (with a bow to Largo wherever he is), analytical thought, concepts, models, and abstractions.

But that's not how people have always thought about intelligence. There are also notions of wisdom, reason (not analytical thinking), and the importance of values. The contemplative sciences (including branches of mysticism), socratic greek thought (reason unencumbered by instinct or the passions), and even early postmodernists (Nietzsche) pointed to problems created by rationalism. For example, Nietzsche's idea of "the last man" (a man incapable of frustration) is a negative result of the Enlightenment's elevation of rationalism and egalitarianism (see also de Toqueville) over culture, aesthetics, and the passions. Nietzsche was most concerned with the poetic imagination of humanity: relying upon only science, man is groundless because science cannot provide the capacity to value. The use of God, Nature, and history have been exhausted in the modern state. As a result, Man is disenchanted, uprooted, and nihilistic. What's now needed, claimed Nietzsche, is the Ubermench, a being of moral superiority who creates values, cultures--not truths. What matters most to humanity is ever-increasing self-fulfillment into totally new levels of existence that Man can't readily see . . . least of all with science alone.

All decisions rely upon sets of values ordered into hierarchies: what's good or bad, right or wrong, appropriate or inappropriate? Science, analyses, models, and abstractions (tools) cannot establish those. Values come from cultures, communities, aesthetics, and imaginations--none of which are amenable, in the slightest, to analyses.

I deal with this kind of thing with organizations. The very determination of industry, mission, and corporate values only come from the heart or creative imagination. I have yet to see a single decision that anyone makes that does NOT rely upon values.

Does, would intelligence include values? It must. Indeed, science and democracy themselves are value systems; they are visions of worlds. What is rational is entombed or wrapped up in non-rational determinations. (People seem to overlook the arrangement.)

That very recognition, however, opens the door to discussions about what is good, bad, etc. Again, the content and approach of science and rationalism cannot help to guide us. What are we left with? We are left with creative imagination, which includes religion, mysticism, culturalisms, nationalism, nihilism, sophism, egoism, and means of direct apprehension.
yedi

Trad climber
Stanwood,wa
Jan 1, 2013 - 11:01am PT
"Live and let live" one of the simplest yet most difficult concepts to apply to living.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jan 1, 2013 - 11:05am PT
Did you mean comprehension?

(although apprehension works)
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Jan 1, 2013 - 11:13am PT
Here is my thought: It seems to me that modern materialism is driven by higher levels of education, technology, and science.

That's interesting because my consumption of material goods, especially petroleum based goods, has decreased dramatically as my level of education has increased.

People have more access to materials (products, services, ego building "things") through modern materialism--all of which come about through what / how people think what intelligence is or how it is talked about. Verstehen Sie? Materialism seems very highly correlated to "intelligence" as it is typically talked about.

I believe it to be more correlated with democracy and capitalism than intelligence. Easy access to more material goods by more people equals more consumption... which of course means more resource utilization, degradation, and destruction. Personally, I think education is the only way to turn that around.

Values come from cultures, communities, aesthetics, and imaginations--none of which are amenable, in the slightest, to analyses.

I'm not sure I agree. In Ecology there is much value placed on biodiversity and species richness within an ecosystem. There are different measures of biodiversity which require analysis to determine. The value has been determined by observations of ecosystem resilience, ecosystem services, and species interactions. There is nothing cultural about that, other than our lives/culture depends on functioning ecosystems. Without analysis those observations could not have been made. Without analysis, Ron's assertion that warm water invasive fish are not spreading through Lake Tahoe and out competing native fishes would have just as much validity as any other assertion. But with analysis we can see the impacts before the native fish populations are decimated and aim to reduce the impacts.
moosedrool

Trad climber
lost, far away from Poland
Jan 1, 2013 - 11:46am PT
I believe it to be more correlated with democracy and capitalism than intelligence. Easy access to more material goods by more people equals more consumption... which of course means more resource utilization, degradation, and destruction. Personally, I think education is the only way to turn that around.

100% agree.

It is true that intelligence alone doesn't have moral values. But that is also true about religions (cannibalism, human sacrifice, eye for an eye anyone?). You need BOTH, moral values and intelligence to create LAWS. Moral values can be enhanced by knowledge and intelligence.
WBraun

climber
Jan 1, 2013 - 12:01pm PT
It seems to me that modern materialism is driven by higher levels of education, technology, and science.

No

Modern materialism is driven purely by the false assumption that we are the material body which covers the real spiritual body of which the individual soul is the real person.

Everything in materialism is aimed to satisfy that material body.

Human material consciousness spends it's entire time only trying to mitigate pain.

The gross physical material body is the source of all misery .......
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Jan 1, 2013 - 12:24pm PT
Modern Braunyism is driven purely by the false assumption that the material body and the spiritual body are separate entities.

WBraun

climber
Jan 1, 2013 - 12:25pm PT
Thus you believe you are the coat you are wearing.

There's no separate entities.

Just coat (gross physical body) and the individual within the body ......
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Jan 1, 2013 - 12:26pm PT
The evolution-creationism debate has no relevance.

Below... is the dispute germane to the future of civilization.

(... hope the video is posted on Summitmushroom.com)

:-)



(Praise to Peter Haan's genius.)
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Jan 1, 2013 - 12:42pm PT
You should become childlike too instead of an old worn out sourpuss that you've become ......

That's the bomb!
eeyonkee

Trad climber
Golden, CO
Jan 2, 2013 - 08:42am PT
Tony B, I was raised Catholic (one of 11 children) and my dad was a big admirer of Teilhard de Chardin. I read a book or two, although it's been awhile. As I recall, in his attempt to reconcile the notion of the soul with evolution, he postulated that at some point the soul came about (I recall something along the lines of a tranformation like from water to steam) in humans. I've remembered the gist of that argument after all of these years. Now the current understanding of early hominids is there were up to severl different species living at around the same time, and all but homo sapiens have gone extinct. My question to Mr. de Chardin would be did souls exist in those hominids that died out? Maybe something just a little less than a soul? Seems pretty arbitrary that God would at some point pick a winner and imbue it with a soul.
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Reno, Nuh VAAAA duh
Jan 2, 2013 - 08:48am PT
Bold pronouncements upon the unknowable. Yech. You need an advanced degree in navel gazing to enjoy that ball of wax.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Jan 2, 2013 - 09:06am PT
I like this one:

from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_evolution
jstan

climber
Jan 2, 2013 - 09:13am PT
Ed's graphic says pretty clearly that Homo Sapiens was very different from the former specie.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jan 2, 2013 - 09:20am PT
There's evidence from mitocondrial DNA that Homo Sapiens went thru a near extinction event 50-100k years ago that reduced the total population / gene pool to probably down around 10,000 individuals.

We came really close to not making it as well.
eeyonkee

Trad climber
Golden, CO
Jan 2, 2013 - 09:22am PT
Still awaiting a response from the esteemed Mr. Bird.
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Jan 2, 2013 - 09:34am PT
if teilhard fretted about souls, he didn't let it detract from a much bigger picture. he took scientific concepts and worked them into an analysis of creation, biological evolution and human history, introducing a number of terms which we still use and which have garnered respect from atheists who take the trouble to get familiar with him.

teilhard's vision involved a number of geneses: cosmogenesis, biogenesis, noogenesis, christogenesis. evolution, he noted, thrives on tension. he envisioned a finale to it, which he named point omega.

teilhard died in the mid 50s, but a lot of people still subscribe to his vision. i don't, but the world i've gotten to know still involves inexorable tensions, and the development of electronic technology in our lifetimes reflects his own prediction about a future in which ideas and politics play out in extraordinary and unexpected ways. you have to remember that teilhard was a jesuit priest, and the catholic church did not allow publication of most of his books until after he died. he was quite controversial, but he seemed to toe a fine line.

ed's graphic clearly states a lot of fuddled and controversial data.
sullly

Trad climber
Jan 2, 2013 - 09:59am PT
Like Chardin as well. Add Kierkegaard.
jstan

climber
Jan 2, 2013 - 10:09am PT
The lowest population at Homo Sapiens' near extinction I have seen quoted is in the 600's. It is thought we survived that climatically induced extinction caused by warming and desertification by taking up residence on Africa's western seashore and adding sea food to our diet.

Perhaps there is a real reason we oldsters are told to add cod liver oil to our diet if we wish to delay mental deterioration.
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Jan 2, 2013 - 11:16am PT
Mechrist:

1. Your personal habits cannot provide the basis for a broad generalization. How has your consumption of materials and services changed over the last 30-40 years? Buying more? What are you buying more of? Any of it have to do with the results of the advancement of science or technology? Are science and technology the result of higher levels of education?

2. You can cite democracy or capitalism, if you want. Whether it is Karl Marx or Adam Smith or others, materialism appears to be the end goal of all political philosophies. The only difference lies in how goods get distributed. In the end, political philosophies have little to do with it.

In this regard, Werner is correct. Attachments and aversions lie at the heart of the matter. They are further exacerbated by the liberal view that samsara (the world of scarce resources) can be fixed through projects, especially that more education, technology, and science will get humanity out of its problems. It's a naive view. The education that truly needed is insight into the self. Nosce te ipsum. What people need is not more stuff (materialism) beyond the most basic needs.

The founders of the Enlightenment (French not Buddhist) argued that higher levels of education (university) would (theoretically at least) solve mankind's problems by breaking young people out of their provincialism (family, community, gender, political, national, race, instinct, passions, etc.) to see bigger yet messier pictures of the human condition. Unfortunately, that objective was problematized (many reasons). Today, the objectives of higher levels of education are those that serve the bourgeoise: careers to make more money to buy more and better things. (Oh, well.) The idea that societies study Nature simply because they are curious is a myth. People study things to get ahead (power, politics, money) and to solve technical problems that appear to be in their way.

What's most in people's way is themselves. The very stipulation of any value at all leads to unresolvable problems. Become a nihilist in-practice, and many problems simply disappear.

Whatever analyses you do, beneath it all is a set of values that you hold dear. There is no justification for any of those values other than you like them, you believe in them, and they serve your interests. Life (which ones?), ecology (ditto), biodiversity, richness, ecosystems are all good by your way of thinking. That things continue for the better or at all is a set of values that you hold dear. I could argue that things shouldn't continue "for the better" (according to whom?) or at all just as easily. It'a all so arbitrary.

The universe seems to be a never-ending cycle of boom and bust, good and bad, pain and pleasure, up and down, creation and destruction. That's its state. You believe that you and other smart people can somehow change that? There are just so many problems with that view. One cannot change anything without changing other things simultaneously. Anyone who takes a true and comprehensive systems approach to reality and its so-called problems, comes away humbled by the complexity, breadth, and depth of the undertaking.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Jan 2, 2013 - 12:24pm PT
Mechrist:

1. Your personal habits cannot provide the basis for a broad generalization.

But your invisible and implicit thoughts can?

How has your consumption of materials and services changed over the last 30-40 years? Buying more? What are you buying more of? Any of it have to do with the results of the advancement of science or technology? Are science and technology the result of higher levels of education?

That's pretty stacked. For starters, we have stopped buying much from large supermarket chains that rely on massive amounts of oil to ship their products all over the country/world. I get my meat from a local distributor who relies on (apparently) ecologically responsible ranchers. My next step is to start hunting. We get most of our produce from a CSA. I spend less than $500 a year on everything outside of rent, insurance, food, and travel. We produce about 3 gals of trash every 2 weeks and compost everything we can.

The only difference lies in how goods get distributed. In the end, political philosophies have little to do with it.

I think you are dead wrong. The difference in how goods get distributed is KEY. No way in hell a socialist country is going to support THIS many people having THIS level of access to goods produced and distributed around the world. Socialist countries would never have access Chilean blueberries from Chile in January... shipped over 5,000 miles in refrigerated compartments. Nor would they have access to cheap Brazilian beef made possible by the destruction of vast tracts of rainforest.

They are further exacerbated by the liberal view that samsara (the world of scarce resources) can be fixed through projects, especially that more education, technology, and science will get humanity out of its problems. It's a naive view. The education that truly needed is insight into the self. Nosce te ipsum.

You (and WB?) are dead wrong if you think education, technology, and science and insight into the self are mutually exclusive... THAT my friend is a pretty naive view. I have a shelf of "insight into the self" books (Alan Watts, Ken Wilber, Bhagavad Gita, Carl Jung, I Ching, Tao Te Ching, etc etc etc) that I have been reading since I was 13 years old. I have another shelf of "education, technology, science" books (differential equations, hydrogeology, geology, geophysics, ecology, psychology, geomorphology, biology, anthropology, statistics, etc etc etc) that I have been reading since I was 13. That's about the time I started meditating too. Pretty sad that a 13 year old dipshit like me realized they were not mutually exclusive but a grown man with all his experience and musing pretends they are.

What people need is not more stuff (materialism) beyond the most basic needs.

No argument there. That is EXACTLY the same conclusion my education and experience has led me to. Different paths up the same mountain?

The founders of the Enlightenment (French not Buddhist) argued that higher levels of education (university) would (theoretically at least) solve mankind's problems...

Well, many founders failed to see into the future. FWIW, the political aspects of the enlightenment are what led to Uhmerikuhn style democracy... which you dismiss in your point 2 above in favor of going on a witch hunt against science, another (but separate) aspect of the enlightenment.

Today, the objectives of higher levels of education are those that serve the bourgeoise: careers to make more money to buy more and better things.

That is CAPITALISM, not science or education or technology. Again, it would behoove you to distinguish between the two.


The idea that societies study Nature simply because they are curious is a myth. People study things to get ahead (power, politics, money) and to solve technical problems that appear to be in their way.

To quote you: "Your personal habits cannot provide the basis for a broad generalization." I've spent my life studying nature. I gave up $65,000+ a year to go back and study more. I have turned down $300/hr consulting jobs I could do in my sleep. I will never get ahead and I will never try. I am not the only one with this attitude who studies science.

Whatever analyses you do, beneath it all is a set of values that you hold dear.

Yep, namely that "reasonably intact ecosystems should be understood enough to prevent damage in the face of unbridled capitalism and access by the masses."

I could argue that things shouldn't continue "for the better" (according to whom?) or at all just as easily. It'a all so arbitrary.

Yep, I know your kind. You can argue about anything really and ignore the fact that what you argued against (point 2 above) is essentially what you argued for.

The universe seems to be a never-ending cycle of boom and bust, good and bad, pain and pleasure, up and down, creation and destruction.

Great. Hinduism 101... take me back to 1992!

You believe that you and other smart people can somehow change that?

You believe I have ever once said that? You are arguing with yourself... I will leave you to it. Let me know when you find your tail.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Jan 2, 2013 - 06:51pm PT
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Jan 2, 2013 - 07:05pm PT
Mech, I find myself in envy of the enthusiasm you showed in your last post. Do you recall when I had that level of energy a couple of years ago now on this site?, lol! What's the secret, a few months sabatical?

P.S.

Yep, I know your kind. You can argue about anything really...

As tired as I am, I loved this one.

.....

http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/the-riddle-of-the-gun
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Jan 2, 2013 - 08:26pm PT
HFCS, the sabbatical helped for sure. Nothing convinces you that the world needs help like teaching a undergrad core class! And nothing convinces you that it is beyond help like the stupidtaco. So many obstinate #$%@^#^'s around here unwilling to consider anything but what they already "know." And so many who take life soo seriously (the extra 'o' is a little piece of flair I like to throw in for smart people who know the difference between the twos). Typing a few paragraphs here between dissertation pages is actually kind of fun... I don't get to use "idiot" nearly enough in my dis. But fair warning, if my models don't start behaving I could have another total melt down and freak out and sh#t.
WBraun

climber
Jan 2, 2013 - 09:08pm PT
You're already losing it here wes.

You're projecting bullsh!t that was never said .....
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Jan 2, 2013 - 09:15pm PT
Forgive me honorable one, for whence have I projected? Certainly not in respect to anything you have said or done. As frustrating as your seemingly flippant and intentionally confounding retorts may be, I have grown to enjoy them.
jogill

climber
Colorado
Jan 2, 2013 - 09:31pm PT
People study things to get ahead (power, politics, money) and to solve technical problems that appear to be in their way

Sometimes your overly broad generalizations get in the way of your arguments. This is one.
WBraun

climber
Jan 2, 2013 - 09:32pm PT
I've never made any mutually exclusive claims.

The greatest rishis have all been very advanced scientists ,very advanced in mathematics and astronomy and knowledge among all the other needs of mankind to live in perfect harmony simultaneously both with material nature and the spiritual nature.

No real bonafide spiritual scholar would ever condemn science, education and technology.

Having only academic knowledge of the two will cause poor fund of understanding .....


mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Jan 3, 2013 - 08:13am PT
The phrase I was referring to was "In this regard, Werner is correct" and I was sure to include a "?" after your initials, as I did not see you write anything in particular and figured you knew better... but I couldn't be sure since "it is all so arbitrary" ya know.
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Jan 3, 2013 - 06:47pm PT
worth a mild bump here. it seems the esteemed eeyonk doesn't want to continue, although i'm heartened that sullly posted.

through supertopo, i was interested to learn that teilhard is considered a "process" philosopher--the same category as alfred north whitehead. this came out in a go-around with largo a couple years ago.

i could never understand all the fuss about "process". it was interesting that largo picked up on it in graduate school through the center for process studies at claremont school of theology, which kinda led me to wonder whether these process types actually believe in a standard, church-issue divinity. rather, it seems, they suggest that god is a process, or coming about through a process. goodbye big daddy in the sky, hello something i've got a personal investment in, and it may or may not bring a decent return.
Dr. F.

Ice climber
SoCal
Jan 3, 2013 - 07:16pm PT
I would continue
But Werner has given us the last word
The greatest rishis have all been very advanced scientists

we don't know sh#t, only those rishis and ancient yogies knew what's goin on
The farther in the past, the smarter they were,
we lost all our smarts for some reason, I'm sure Werner has told us many times why, but I'm too stupid to understand it.

They knew everything back then, and we can never approach their level of knowledge and wisdom with our modern science and our scientific tools.

They even knew about atoms and stars!!!
snicker
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Jan 3, 2013 - 07:37pm PT
i just finished a book i found quite interesting, craig, which had a lot to do with the critique of egyptology i was giving--fingerprints of the gods by graham hancock.

most people are familiar with chariots of the gods by erik von daniken, who easily attracts criticism. where von daniken is a bit of a lightweight, hancock is a heavyweight, bringing a knowledgeable education to the anomalies he tries to make sense of. he builds his case on some pretty solid facts, beginning with the piri reis map.

ever hear of that? how did a turkish admiral in the 1500s get reliable geographical information on antarctica? there are a number of other early maps as well, which show in uncanny detail features which are now under ice. these old maps have provenance. teachers of standard history/archaeology wish they didn't exist. this is what werner is talking about. the evidence is compelling.
Dr. F.

Ice climber
SoCal
Jan 3, 2013 - 07:41pm PT
Yes
I agree, they had great intelligence back then
But compared to today??
WBraun

climber
Jan 3, 2013 - 08:19pm PT
You are saying that it's way more important to know about the coat than the person.

Modern science has made great advancements in studying the coat and all it's attributes while completely neglecting the person (living entity).

Our materialistic science will make you happy in the future.

Meanwhile the whole fuking world is miserable.

Here ... have a nice coat, while the man in the coat is sick, from separation.

In the future.

The post dated check they've been handing out ......

Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Jan 3, 2013 - 08:32pm PT
hancock is proposing a timeline with an extraordinary leap backward. i'm not ready to buy everything he says, and, to his credit, he only suggests--he's not out to sweep everything away at once. but the pyramids are kind of a key element. their very immensity suggests that their builders employed forces over matter yet unknown to our modern time. there are supposedly only two cranes in the modern world capable of lifting the biggest stones.

werner's comment reminds me of things i'd always hear growing up in the boom times of the 1950s. so much progress, so many new inventions and conveniences. somehow this would translate to better living for everyone. somehow, it never did.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jan 3, 2013 - 08:40pm PT
Re Hancock's book...

Reception: Members of the scholarly and scientific community have described the proposals put forward in the book as pseudoscience and pseudoarchaeology.


And on cataclysmic pole shift hypothesis:

It is now established that true polar wander has occurred at various times in the past, but at rates of 1° per million years or less. Analysis of the evidence does not lend credence to Hapgood's hypothesized rapid displacement of layers of the Earth. Although Hapgood drastically overestimated the effects of changing mass distributions across the Earth, calculations show that changing mass distributions both on the surface and in the mantle can cause true polar wander.

All the discussion about a long-gone advanced civilization existing before the Egyptians and Mayans is interesting conjecture, but never makes it out of the realm of sci-fi and is not supported by any evidence.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Jan 3, 2013 - 08:54pm PT
some people here seem to think we (pick your flavor) have it all pretty much figured out


whereas my personal view is that we only have access to a little carefully selected collection of pieces and various flavors of opinions constructed from them



and with very little or no concept of the big picture



obviously it would be politically convenient to accept the current establishment view of the world

it makes for an interesting intellectual exercise to step back through time in 100 year steps and look at what was the politically acceptably view of reality at each of those steps

then, as suggested earlier by Base, try to imagine what might be the accepted world view 100 years in the future...and why?...

also try to imagine just how far we are from really understanding...

(given the tiny glimpses we have from our little blue bubble)

MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Jan 4, 2013 - 10:36am PT
MeChrist:


You seem angry. Sorry, if I offended you. Nothing I wrote really mattered. We were just talking, my friend. No need to take any of it personally.

My views are the results of being an old professor. The practice of teaching and research in my field of organization, institution, and strategy (along with a little cognitive science) demanded that I go outside my field to study their contexts and how contexts change. That work has encouraged me to see capitalism inextricably tied-up with education and technology. Along the way, I took the looking glass and started to look at the very practices I found myself involved in as an academic.

Congrats on your personal decisions. None of my comments were meant to question the integrity of your decisions.

Good luck on your dissertation. :-) It's a cultural rite of passage. The point of a Ph.D. is to institutionalize you into becoming a recognized member of the Academy. Supposedly then you'll be able to do what you want to do.

Be well.




P.S. Wanna make God laugh? Make plans.
jogill

climber
Colorado
Jan 4, 2013 - 11:59am PT
The point of a Ph.D. is to institutionalize you into becoming a recognized member of the Academy. Supposedly then you'll be able to do what you want to do

Yep. My dad (a professor) used to tell me to get my union card.

;>)
sullly

Trad climber
Jan 4, 2013 - 12:30pm PT
^^^ My father (a professor) pushed liberal arts and taught a course called Theories of the Good Life. I'm forever grateful my parents were of this mind. Much ado about science these days. The liberal arts man is nearly extinct. Finding a straight one without a paunch nearly impossible here in Silicon Valley.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jan 4, 2013 - 12:31pm PT
some people here seem to think we (pick your flavor) have it all pretty much figured out.

Quite to the contrary, most of the distance past is a complete unknown. And, while theorizing variously about how our cultures unfolded over the past 10,000 years is an interesting exercise, what isn't helpful is attempting to pass off unsupported conjecture as science. It's again a matter of having the discipline to resist a desperate urge and need to plug the voids in our knowledge with fantasy, however entertaining.
eeyonkee

Trad climber
Golden, CO
Jan 4, 2013 - 01:04pm PT
If you want an optimistic view on the future of the human race, read Steven Pinker's 'The Better Angels of Our Nature; Why Violence Has Declined'. The gist of the book is that you can take nearly any variable having to do with violence snd show that it has declined over our history. In the end, he offers 5 possible reasons for this trend.

The leviathan (development of the State),
gentle commerce,
feminization,
the expanding circle, and
the escalator of reason.

Ignorance of science, willful or not, may not be directly related to violence, but I'm betting on number 5 for the long view on that one as well.
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Jan 4, 2013 - 01:05pm PT
Has anyone seen the movie Zeitgeist?

I have a hard time looking at the world like I used to before I watched it.
sullly

Trad climber
Jan 4, 2013 - 01:20pm PT
eeokkee,
It's not an "ignorance of sciencs." Science is just one piece. Look back at Plato discussing the BALANCED human being. Enough with the science hard-on.
jghedge

climber
Jan 4, 2013 - 01:24pm PT
"I have a hard time looking at the world like I used to before I watched it."


So it changed you back to the way you used to see things?
eeyonkee

Trad climber
Golden, CO
Jan 4, 2013 - 01:52pm PT
Science is our attempt at understanding and describing nature. Substitute science with nature. The natural world is what the escalator of reason should help you to understand.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jan 4, 2013 - 02:05pm PT
What's with the bashing of the science anyway?

Everyone here benefits from science, from driving a car to refrigerated foods.

Why do those who do bash science assume that we would somehow be better off without it?

I don't think they really believe that, but they do seem to leap to the irrational conclusion that those who support the scientific process also mock the "spiritual".

Science by definition does not put down or mock religion or exploring higher consciousness or spirituality.

Go ahead, ponder all day, science will be waiting for you when you are done.

Maybe what pisses some people off the most is when "science" puts forth pretty darn strong fossil "proof" that humans evolved and were not created instantly a couple thousand years ago.

Because if evolution is really true, then the first big crack appears in many organized and ritualized religion, and that rightfully scares and angers some people.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jan 4, 2013 - 02:23pm PT
As someone with a strong microbiology bent, I am not optimistic.

Humans show no more 'intelligence' or restraint in their reproduction rates and resource use than bacteria in a petri dish. And if humans are simply an optimal expression, or 'fruiting body' of the global pool of DNA in response to a particular set of environmental and ecological conditions which exist on the planet, then our lifestyle will continue only so long as those conditions do. I say 'lifestyle' because our continued existence matters only to us - we are otherwise wholly irrelevant to the 'well-being' and survival of the planet and the global pool of DNA.

And we have basically turned ourselves into the most abundant, consumption-ready biomass on the planet and we deliver ourselves everywhere to boot. My own opinion is that, as we extinguish species, a percentage of mammalian and vertebrate pathogen loads are not going lay down and vanish with their hosts; no, they're going to jump ship instead. And under the right circumstances, I could easily see humanity diminished by a half or two thirds of today's population numbers almost overnight by some novel pathogen trying to climb aboard our boat.

Anyway, I think emerging disease threats are far more worrisome than any human-manufactured threat.

Spread of SARS in Taiwan and beyond:


Global Mobility Network:


I'm personally thankful these folks are on the job (clickable):
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Jan 5, 2013 - 07:29am PT
this thread could start to get interesting. don't go running off looking at boobies now.

healyje, if you had read carefully what i posted on graham hancock, you would know how admittedly controversial he is. you should also know that egyptology is perhaps the most vulnerable "science" to anyone who comes along and rocks its boat. it's easy to google up people who will dismiss hancock with a flick of their tenure-track bics, but what i defy you find is anyone who can explain, in any rational manner whatsoever, the very factual evidence which hancock tries to engage. no, they sit in their cubicles and "accept" a world full of "anomalies", leaving it for some future genius to make sense of it all. their world is so damn full of anomalies it hardly has any "noms" left. and when the geniuses come along, as they have so many times in the past, they generally get a reception just like hancock has gotten.

it's also interesting to note that a single, lonely "respectable" voice was raised in support of hapgood's work in the 1950s--that of albert einstein.

there's an old egyptian saying, which i believe might pertain here: time is the enemy of all things--but the pyramids are the enemy of time.

i hate to get cocky about infectious diseases, healyje, but what you never hear your CDC paranoids talk about is the strength, resilience and resourcefulness of the human immunity system, and how it can be cultivated and bolstered. that would detract from the paranoia. yvon chouinard has an interesting comment in his book, let my people go surfing. when he first started going to mexico to surf, he realized that he had to adapt to a different style of food, water and hygiene if he wanted to pursue his sport there. it was a rocky road at first, but he's gotten himself to the point where he can now boast that he drinks from most of the waters he fishes in and rarely gets sick. as any immunologist will tell us, it's those who only know the protected environments who are the most vulnerable. but "science" does not seem to concern itself with building immunity in new and better ways, only with insulation and paranoia.

michaeld, zeitgeist puts forth a lot of information long known in the field of mythology, but generally quite surprising to those used to the christian version of everything. it also suffers from a number of outrageous scientific inaccuracies, which made it very difficult for me to sit through the first part of it. i had so many new-age buddies that went wild when it came out, but they didn't like to be troubled with the details of science either. but i'm glad it changed your point of view.
Riley Wyna

Trad climber
A crack near you
Jan 5, 2013 - 07:31am PT
http://www.tampabay.com/incoming/2012-was-worst-year-for-whooping-cough-since-1955/1269053
moosedrool

Trad climber
lost, far away from Poland
Jan 5, 2013 - 08:37am PT
Healyje, if you kill all the animals, you would actualy decrease the number of potentially harmful viruses or bacteria. No birtds means no bird flu pandemic ;-/
Vaccination is the best way to prevent diseases.

Tony B, self vaccination is very dengerous. Don't drink contaminated water to prime your immune system...

because yer gunna die!
Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
Jan 5, 2013 - 08:40am PT
...and how it can be cultivated and bolstered...

If you survive the illness.

...it was a rocky road at first...


Meaning he was pucking and shitting at both ends at the same and wished over and over that he would die.

Sounds like a great way to live.

No, thanks. I'd rather do it the smart way.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Jan 5, 2013 - 05:00pm PT
Thought a few of you might enjoy this from a commenter following a review of Religulous (2008), requoted by Jerry Coyne, evolutionary advocate.

Speaking truth to...

“The irony of religion is that because of its power to divert man to destructive courses, the world could actually come to an end. The plain fact is, religion must die for mankind to live. The hour is getting very late to be able to indulge having key decisions made by religious people, by irrationalists, by those who would steer the ship of state not by a compass, but by the equivalent of reading the entrails of a chicken. George Bush prayed a lot about Iraq, but he didn’t learn a lot about it. Faith means making a virtue out of not thinking. It’s nothing to brag about. And those who preach faith, and enable and elevate it are intellectual slaveholders, keeping mankind in a bondage to fantasy and nonsense that has spawned and justified so much lunacy and destruction. Religion is dangerous because it allows human beings who don’t have all the answers to think that they do. Most people would think it’s wonderful when someone says, “I’m willing, Lord! I’ll do whatever you want me to do!” Except that since there are no gods actually talking to us, that void is filled in by people with their own corruptions and limitations and agendas. And anyone who tells you they know, they just know what happens when you die, I promise you, you don’t. How can I be so sure? Because I don’t know, and you do not possess mental powers that I do not. The only appropriate attitude for man to have about the big questions is not the arrogant certitude that is the hallmark of religion, but doubt. Doubt is humble, and that’s what man needs to be, considering that human history is just a litany of getting sh#t dead wrong. This is why rational people, anti-religionists, must end their timidity and come out of the closet and assert themselves. And those who consider themselves only moderately religious really need to look in the mirror and realize that the solace and comfort that religion brings you comes at a horrible price. If you belonged to a political party or a social club that was tied to as much bigotry, misogyny, homophobia, violence, and sheer ignorance as religion is, you’d resign in protest. To do otherwise is to be an enabler, a mafia wife, for the true devils of extremism that draw their legitimacy from the billions of their fellow travelers. If the world does come to an end here, or wherever, or if it limps into the future, decimated by the effects of religion-inspired nuclear terrorism, let’s remember what the real problem was. We learned how to precipitate mass death before we got past the neurological disorder of wishing for it. That’s it. Grow up or die.”

http://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Jan 5, 2013 - 06:48pm PT
worked for chouinard and works for me. it's an attitude thing. if you're prissy about giardiasis, read the research and published papers of a uc-davis doctor/backpacker on the subject. we've hashed that over on here.
Malemute

Ice climber
the ghost
Jan 5, 2013 - 07:02pm PT
climbers that brag that they never get sick in Mexico are really just bragging that they are acclimated to a wide variety of fecal bacteria ;-)
Fossil climber

Trad climber
Atlin, B. C.
Jan 5, 2013 - 08:12pm PT
Funny how a thread that started on the regrettable and possibly terminal human capacity for the irrational wandered off onto diarrhea.

But to get back to the topic, High Fructose Corn Spirit’s post nailed it.
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Jan 5, 2013 - 09:00pm PT
But to get back to the topic, High Fructose Corn Spirit’s post nailed it.

yes indeedy. uphill battle though.
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
Jan 5, 2013 - 09:12pm PT
Malemute - Yukkity yuk ! That was great for all the times I've had fun in Mexico. I guess It was just about excellently prepared poo in competition with what passes for food in Canada.

And Healy, even before we knew what it was, DNA has always been the life of the party.
Riley Wyna

Trad climber
A crack near you
Jan 5, 2013 - 11:25pm PT
climbers that brag that they never get sick in Mexico are really just bragging that they are acclimated to a wide variety of fecal bacteria ;-)

yup - congratulations - your body is used to eating sh#t - literally!
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Jan 6, 2013 - 08:20am PT
I like the brief conversation regarding optimism vs. pessimism--irrespective of having a scientific, religious, (both or neither) perspectives on life.

I'll take option #4--neither the optimistic nor the pessimistic view. The universe is perfect and it will stay perfect (although different).

"Yeah, . . . but the pain and suffering in the world!!!"

Can't help it. Comes with the rest of the package.

Pain can be a very useful thing. Leads to non-ignorance. (Trying to get back to theOP's topic here.)
Reeotch

Trad climber
4 Corners Area
Jan 6, 2013 - 10:49am PT
Pain can be a very useful thing. Leads to non-ignorance. (Trying to get back to theOP's topic here.)

I would hope that those climbers who were attacked in Peru have lost at least some of their ignorance. Classic example of ignorant americans. Even after the the fact they didn't seem to get it fully.

Oh, well, don't want to start a rant about that. Just that we make too many assumptions and often fail to view ourselves through the eyes of others.
moosedrool

Trad climber
lost, far away from Poland
Jan 6, 2013 - 11:41am PT
This is why rational people, anti-religionists, must end their timidity and come out of the closet and assert themselves.

Amen to that! hehehe

It is extremely difficult for a religious person to free himself from those shackles. I was raised as a catholic in Poland, which is about 90% catholic. In my teens I started having some doubts. But it took me a few years before I became an agnostic. I remember the fear of losing faith. And guilt. There were very difficult times for me. Now, I am an atheist. Although, I don't exclude the possibility of existence of very advanced aliens with "god" like abilities. At the same time I think they are completely irreverent to our actions.

Anyway, my children were never subjected to religious indoctrination. Now, my daughter is an atheist, but my son elected to get baptized in his late twenties. Go figure. Sometimes when we have a beer and play some pool I joke that the game is devil vs god. Devil is winning so far. My son's children's heads are being filled with this religious nonsense, like: "God created those beautiful mountains". It bothers me but I can't do anything about it. I voice my opinions to their parents, but they don't want to talk about it.

Like I stated in one of my previous posts, religion is in our genes, literally. It is thus against our nature not to be religious. That is why it is much easier to convert a born atheist to a religious person than other way around.
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Jan 6, 2013 - 12:25pm PT
don't exclude the possibility of existence of very advanced aliens with "god" like abilities. At the same time I think they are completely irreverent to our actions.

keerful, moosedrool, they're gonna be on yer case in no time. we don't have klimmer to kick around any more.
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Jan 6, 2013 - 12:30pm PT
...religion is in our genes, literally. It is thus against our nature not to be religious. That is why it is much easier to convert a born atheist to a religious person than other way around.

An interesting statement but entirely counter to my experience.

Religion is not in my genes (unless climbing is a religion..;-)

I was born to a family of church musicians, Anglican Episcopal, who believed deeply in their church and their god. From a very young age I saw it all as a bunch of hogwash.

Personally I have seen many more people abandon religion as they grow up than the other way 'round.

WBraun

climber
Jan 6, 2013 - 12:34pm PT
Meh ...

These pussy ignorant atheists don't know sh!t about God to begin with.

All they do is hurl empty impotent words with no power.

The proof to God is his transcendental sound vibrations chanted without offenses.

One can immediately feel the effect.

Only foolish rascals never make the experiments but only hurl useless impotent words that do nothing.
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Jan 6, 2013 - 12:42pm PT
religion is in yer genes


An interesting hypothesis but I think its a bit off the mark. Authoritarianism is actually genetic at least to a degree. No doubt authoritarianism (religion..?) is also acquired through environmental and cultural conditioning but certain personality traits that are required for authoritarianism often exist in a person right from birth.

Its why some who are born into religion / authoritarianism wind up first questioning its authority and ultimately rejecting it. They are likely strongly anti authoritarian / egalitarian in personality.

edit - thats not the whole story of course. There is the whole issue of logic.....
go-B

climber
Hebrews 1:3
Jan 6, 2013 - 12:43pm PT
Like I stated in one of my previous posts, religion is in our genes, literally. It is thus against our nature not to be religious.

Romans 8:1 Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. 3 For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

...even the Polish can be Ignorant!
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Jan 6, 2013 - 12:45pm PT
Go b for instance can only recite scripture, which is authority.
















































oh forget it
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Jan 6, 2013 - 12:48pm PT
I thought I felt the vibrations of foolish rascal WBraun's useless impotent words chanted. Was that God?

WBraun.

I simple wouldn't resist.

Marlow
Bruce Morris

Social climber
Belmont, California
Jan 6, 2013 - 01:12pm PT
Intellectual hierarchy and social democracy don't mix. Scientific "fact" is not determined in the voting booth.
moosedrool

Trad climber
lost, far away from Poland
Jan 6, 2013 - 01:23pm PT
Some info on “religion is in our genes”.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/15/weekinreview/12wade.html?_r=0

Religion has the hallmarks of an evolved behavior, meaning that it exists because it was favored by natural selection. It is universal because it was wired into our neural circuitry before the ancestral human population dispersed from its African homeland.

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn7147-genes-contribute-to-religious-inclination.html

The team gave questionnaires to 169 pairs of identical twins - 100% genetically identical - and 104 pairs of fraternal twins - 50% genetically identical - born in Minnesota.
The twins, all male and in their early 30s, were asked how often they currently went to religious services, prayed, and discussed religious teachings. This was compared with when they were growing up and living with their families. Then, each participant answered the same questions regarding their mother, father, and their twin.
The twins believed that when they were younger, all of their family members - including themselves - shared similar religious behaviour. But in adulthood, however, only the identical twins reported maintaining that similarity. In contrast, fraternal twins were about a third less similar than they were as children.
"That would suggest genetic factors are becoming more important and growing up together less important," says team member Matt McGue, a psychologist at the University of Minnesota.

There are many more studies like that and even attempts to isolate the genes that make us religious. Of course we are not 100% slaves to our genes. They just make as more susceptible to religious believes, that’s all.
WBraun

climber
Jan 6, 2013 - 01:30pm PT
It's impossible to ever be separated from God.

The only separation occurs due to losing ones constitutional consciousness due to contact with the inferior material energy, ie Material nature.

We are part parcel of God.

We have all qualities but not the quantity.

Atheists just plain are in absolute ignorance of their real constitutional position ......
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Jan 6, 2013 - 01:58pm PT
Werner -

God is one thing.

Religion is something else all together
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Jan 6, 2013 - 07:05pm PT
Werner -

God is one thing.

Religion is something else all together

Yes.

My earlier post was in reference to organized religion which I think is bs. But when I look at the world and life and beyond I am not an atheist, I am like an ant on a beach.
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Jan 6, 2013 - 07:19pm PT
let's get back to your very advanced aliens with godlike abilities, moosiedroolie. i find some compelling evidence for this myself. the possibility that this is the "reality" we must all ultimately deal with has given rise to some intense, far-out speculation in a "new" field dubbed exopolitics. here's a sampler of this crowd:

http://exopolitics.org/

http://projectcamelotportal.com/

http://www.exopolitics.org.uk/

http://exopolitics.blogspot.com/

before the predictable supertopo stoning begins, take a look at the first report on that first thread. michael salla, who came into exopolitics from a rather solid academic background, examines reports that dmitry medvedev, the current prime minister of russia and not exactly a political lightweight, is taking these ideas quite seriously too.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jan 6, 2013 - 07:21pm PT
I am like an ant on a beach

Or a bug on a wall?
go-B

climber
Hebrews 1:3
Jan 6, 2013 - 08:33pm PT
I am like an ant on a beach

Or a bug on a wall?

photo not found
Missing photo ID#282612

Hubble Captures a Collection of Ancient Stars
http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/hubble/science/ancient-stars.html

Psalm 39:4 “Lord, make me to know my end,
And what is the measure of my days,
That I may know how frail I am.
5 Indeed, You have made my days as handbreadths,
And my age is as nothing before You;
Certainly every man at his best state is but vapor. Selah
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jan 6, 2013 - 09:22pm PT
...let's get back to your very advanced aliens with godlike abilities, moosiedroolie. i find some compelling evidence for this myself.

You may want to think so, but in reality there is no scientific evidence even vaguely broaching 'probable', let alone"compelling".
moosedrool

Trad climber
lost, far away from Poland
Jan 6, 2013 - 09:52pm PT
Tony B, I was into those Daniken speculations when I was in my twenties. Not so much now. I think it was a withdrawal syndrom after I quit religion. Conspiracy theory is very close to religion. I blame our religious genes for that.

Miedwiediew has a good sense of humor.

Edit: Donini is probably thinking " what the heck have I started?". But he can't delete it. He is not a tosser!
Riley Wyna

Trad climber
A crack near you
Jan 7, 2013 - 03:23am PT
Edit: Donini is probably thinking " what the heck have I started?". But he can't delete it. He is not a tosser!


nah - it's show and tell
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Jan 7, 2013 - 06:22am PT
there has been much speculation about whether medvedev was joking. it's interesting that his reference to men in black seems to have nothing to do with the string of spielberg movies, but a serious russian documentary by that name which was released last month, which is linked on michael salla's report. you might take a look at that, moose--it's subtitled with english, but there's a lot more that's being said that wasn't translated.

if you're still back there with daniken, you have a lot of homework to do. i would recommend beginning with jacques vallee's books. incidentally, vallee has reported a conversation he had with spielberg during the time of producing close encounters of the third kind, a movie which inserts a character, a french scientist, as a tribute to vallee and his disciplined ufological investigations.

vallee has taken a differing view of what most of the world considers visitations, interference and harrassment of ETs from other star systems. he finds the material identical to what we have from folklore and mythology, and has speculated that it's some sort of built-in "discipline" to the human milieu. at the very least, it involves other dimensions and "spiritual" aspects which our modern science cannot engage.

"you're probably right," came spielberg's reply at the end of a very weighty conversation. "but this is hollywood, and people want to believe in ET, and i'm going to give them what they want."
dirtbag

climber
Jan 7, 2013 - 06:24am PT
Some people just naturally gravitate towards kookery.
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Jan 7, 2013 - 06:48am PT
you and healyje get on my case like flies on sh#t, dirtbag. remember, when it comes to flies and sh#t, that the attraction does not reflect well on the flies.
dirtbag

climber
Jan 7, 2013 - 07:05am PT
Chemtrails, aliens, and illuminati (oh my)!

Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Jan 7, 2013 - 07:24am PT
it's probably worth noting that this very thread was begun by jim donini, who loves to come onto chemtrail, illuminati and other off-topic "nonsense" and scold supertopoans for not posting enough about climbing. somehow, he couldn't live by his own rules. admit it, dirtbag, you're fascinated by the sh#t, like any self-respecting housefly out there.
moosedrool

Trad climber
lost, far away from Poland
Jan 7, 2013 - 07:50am PT
Posting that early, people? Well, I can't sleep either.

Tony B. I will read some more. Curiosity got the best of me, like always.
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Jan 7, 2013 - 08:01am PT
we call it an alpine start. i don't suppose you need those in the tatras. :-)
moosedrool

Trad climber
lost, far away from Poland
Jan 7, 2013 - 08:20am PT
Tony B. Since I am reading your material, It is fair you read some of mine. You said I didn't have original thoughts. You hurt my feelings. hehehe Would this be original enough for you:
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0003269708000729

Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Jan 7, 2013 - 09:02am PT
you must first interest me in your material, moosedrool, which you have thus far--how can i say this gently--failed to do.

how would you do that? by exhibiting knowledge of things i'm not aware of. but you're a little ahead of the stoning committee in that department.

apart from my interest in these subjects, i'd very much like to improve the nature of discussion itself on supertopo. the posting of photos, links, extended quotations and the like can become quite burdensome when it's done in lieu of a directed discussion. reference is one thing, but expecting everyone to click and read--so they can think exactly the way you do--is quite another.

the best way to melt through the mess is to put things in your own words. the more you understand the material, the better you're able to do that. yes, i've been an editorial professional, so i've honed those skills, but i think the convenience of computers makes people lazy.

i believe you've come lately to supertopo, so you may have missed the notorious ark-on-the-moon thread by klimmer, going on three years ago:

http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/1156814/The-Massive-Ark-on-the-Moon-very-OT-but-of-high-interest

this is something i paid no attention to for the longest time. i wasn't interested in ufology then, and the avalanche of links in that thread made it impossible for me to get a handle on what was going on. eventually i got interested in ufology for other reasons, and i came to respect klimmer for standing his ground, probably taking more heat than anyone has ever gotten on supertopo.

i assume you're the andrzej attached to that paper. i've done enough science reporting to know how to put such things in laypeople's language. if it's something significant, it ought to be even easier. pardon me if i'm not impressed by technical language.
moosedrool

Trad climber
lost, far away from Poland
Jan 7, 2013 - 11:11am PT
Tony B, questioning my sincerity?

OK. A little bit of a background info. In my own words:
Proteins in human bodies are made according to the instructions encoded in our genes (stretches of DNA). So called genetic defects are the damages to the cell's DNA that render the cell unable to make a key protein. If one could restore the DNA in that cell, the cell would be cured. The trick is to find a "vehicle" that would deliver the DNA into a specific cell.

When I was a scientist at Bayer in Richmond, CA, I joined the Gene Therapy group. Our project was to create a vehicle that would deliver a gene (DNA) into specific human cells. At the same time, the vehicle had to protect the DNA from enzymatic degradation (if you just inject DNA to your body, it would be degraded by the enzymes). To create the vehicle, we used a protein (called VP1) from the polyoma JC virus. This protein can create a ball-like structure (about 50 nm diameter) when 360 of them join together. Inside the ball there is enough space to put a piece of DNA encoding a small protein. My tasks in our group were to: find a way to purify the VP1 protein and assemble them around a piece of DNA. In addition, I created analytical methods that monitored that process and then showed that the vehicle was properly assembled. The project was successful. Using the vehicle, we delivered the green fluorescent protein to a target human cells (on a dish). After the cells expressed the gene, the cells turned green. Also, the gene was protected from the enzymes.
Shortly after that, the project was shelved. At least I could write an article about it :). My work draw enough interest to be cited in the Encyclopedia of Life Sciences.

Man, I love to brag!
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Jan 7, 2013 - 11:17am PT
sincerity? not at all, you are refreshingly sincere. my problem is with your statement, "I am reading your material, It is fair you read some of mine." that's a complete non-sequitur. if you're trying to impress me as an intelligent scientist working in the chemistry of dna, you don't have to do that. we're not talking about your research area here.
moosedrool

Trad climber
lost, far away from Poland
Jan 7, 2013 - 11:43am PT
Tony B, be a good sport. First you asked me to make it more clear for you:

you must first interest me in your material, moosedrool, which you have thus far--how can i say this gently--failed to do.

and then you scolded me for doing so?

we're not talking about your research area here.

High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Jan 7, 2013 - 12:18pm PT
I'm adding this here only because I wanted to further reinforce the idea in my own working vocabulary...

i came to respect klimmer for standing his ground, probably taking more heat than anyone has ever gotten on supertopo.

Standing your ground in bullshi't is nothing to be proud of.
selfish man

Gym climber
Austin, TX
Jan 7, 2013 - 01:04pm PT
you and healyje get on my case like flies on sh#t, dirtbag. remember, when it comes to flies and sh#t, that the attraction does not reflect well on the flies.

I didn't read the discussion but couldn't help laughing when I saw this. Neither does it reflect well on what attracts the flies, I'm afraid

moosedrool

Trad climber
lost, far away from Poland
Jan 7, 2013 - 02:46pm PT
Tony B, sorry but all those claims about extraterrestrials have not been confirmed by any respectable scientific journal. As a scientist I have to scrutinize the evidence before I make my conclusions. The evidence about extraterrestrials, illuminati, chemtrails, 9/11 cover-up, and such all fall into the category of BELIEFS. The same as religion, it asks you to believe without and in spite of evidence. It is fascinating for me to see how some atheists converted to conspiracists. Why do they want to believe in such nonsense? Because it is all in their genes!

mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Jan 7, 2013 - 02:59pm PT
OMG, it is so hard to believe... but someone said it on the internet, so you never know...

http://gawker.com/5969532/the-insane-sandy-hook-conspiracy-theories-that-are-already-flooding-facebook-and-twitter


Blonde girls...


Parents... or attourney...


Illuminati...

monolith

climber
albany,ca
Jan 7, 2013 - 03:11pm PT
^^Werner's been busy getting the Truth out.^^

Wake up Sheeple!
moosedrool

Trad climber
lost, far away from Poland
Jan 7, 2013 - 03:16pm PT
Mechrist. I am not sure whether I should laugh or cry. America the Ignorant, so true...
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Jan 7, 2013 - 03:21pm PT
But it is interesting how they all line up in a pentagram... with Columbine and Aurora in southern WY... which is the state where Cheney lives...

Eh, you never know...
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Jan 7, 2013 - 03:39pm PT
those whose careers are tied to "respectable scientific journals" will never think for themselves, drool. you have obviously never examined the evidence of ufology personally, else you would be addressing its worth or worthlessness in terms of the evidence itself, rather than "respectability". my advice is stick with your career, your great humility, and your comfy lab. it's dangerous out there. you'll find plenty of fellowship from the school of baby sharks we're attracting--they had a term for it a few years ago: dittoheads.

one of our respectable scientists on this forum recently reported going to a conference where most of the papers were not recognizable, to him, as science. what i recognized in terms of the general subject matter was an interest in areas rumored to involve back-engineering. yes, technology supposedly gained from alien contacts kept secret from the public. in certain circles, it would appear that respectability is being thrown to the wind.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jan 7, 2013 - 03:40pm PT
michael salla

Salla? Please, how can you buy that drivel? It's classic scifi hucksterism.

pardon me if i'm not impressed by technical language

Or facts. Why exactly is it that topics which sport a total lack of support by any documented facts seem to impress you far more than any others? Which brings us to:

you have obviously never examined the evidence of ufology personally, else you would be addressing its worth or worthlessness in terms of the evidence itself, rather than "respectability"

But then, of course, there is zip, zero, nada "evidence" of UFOs - as in none whatsoever.

yes, technology supposedly gained from alien contacts kept secret from the public.

It's always the same troop of crank inventors along with scifi jugglers, clowns, and folks hoping to turn a buck in retirement (and the suckers they attract).

mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Jan 7, 2013 - 03:42pm PT
I watched ET when I was young and I think it could happen.
WBraun

climber
Jan 7, 2013 - 03:42pm PT
I had nothing to do with mechrist's troll.

So fuk you Monolith ......
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Jan 7, 2013 - 03:44pm PT
Just when you thought it couldn't get any sillier...

those whose careers are tied to "respectable scientific journals" will never think for themselves,

Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Jan 7, 2013 - 03:54pm PT
i think salla is a little gullible, healyje, but he's someone who will delve into areas no one else will touch, and he comes up with very interesting information--sometimes. but the medvedev stuff has little to do with salla. salla just reported what got buzzed about all over the world when the PM made his supposed off-camera remarks.

i tend to agree with moosedrool's assessment: medvedev is a fox and knew perfectly well what he was doing and was testing the waters for a reaction. the link to the russian men in black is interesting too. it's just a basic documentary on ufology, portraying experiences which are almost identical to those which happen in the u.s. the difference between us and russia is our movie industry. the movies portray all the latest from ufology, fictionalizing it and keeping it in our tabloid mindset, where we won't take it too seriously. hollywood sci fi has no imagination as far as this stuff goes. it picks up stories and themes which a lot of people consider real, and which some claim really to have experienced.

salla made a couple reports last year about the real reasons for our current, outrageous trade imbalance with communist china. it has nothing to do with ufos, ET or sci fi. it begins with a lot of stolen money during world war 2. it's the closest thing to real investigative reporting on that very important issue that i've seen anywhere.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jan 7, 2013 - 04:31pm PT
salla made a couple reports last year about the real reasons for our current, outrageous trade imbalance with communist china. it has nothing to do with ufos, ET or sci fi. it begins with a lot of stolen money during world war 2. it's the closest thing to real investigative reporting on that very important issue that i've seen anywhere.

And of course you buy it hook, line and sinker with no critical thought whatsoever because, of course, the fed and their minion central banks are all an evil conspiracy. Sigh.
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Jan 7, 2013 - 06:00pm PT
moosedrool, my opinion on religion and evolution has always been that the idea of immortality of the soul, a divine protector, eternal paradise are so motivating that they give people a survival benefit compared to people who think their lives are insignificant and that death is the end. It doesnt matter if its true or not, believing it is beneficial. Sort of like believing that rp's and lowe-balls can protect you in a fall.

A second explanation could be that feelings of wonder and mystery about the world, which tend to ascribe everything to God, is a kind of scientific curiosity, and even if the conclusions arent right, its better than not thinking about the world at all. The most primitive spiritual thoughts, 50,000 years ago, led to progress, and we havent evolved much since then.

What did yo think about the Japanese researchers who claim to be able to program cells to go after cancer cells? It would be so amazing to see a cure for cancer in my lifetime.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Jan 7, 2013 - 06:44pm PT
dp, that's an insightful post, really.

Applicable to primitive man, but arguably less so for modern man. What's modern man esp with his science edu to do. Should he live with one foot in reality, the other in escapist fantasy - employing either (depending how one looks at it) cognitive dissonance or non-overlapping magisteria.

Perhaps one foot in and one foot out (toggling back n forth) is the best life strategy for going forward for the most nimble minds of the future. (??)

Moreover, insofar as "elements" of religion or theology are part of our makeup (having evolved together in symbiosis over thousands of generations) - in other words, insofar as they are part of our blood or our dna - does not this toggling strategy make the most sense? Would it not be the most "reasonable" to employ?

Just food for thought.

And then there's this: With all these new pressures set against modern man (due to his rapidly changing environment including rapidly changing awareness of his place in the cosmos) causing angst, depression, ennui - should he utilize pharmaceuticals (as umpteen millions have already begun to do esp in their later years) to deal with these pressures which would arguably screw with the scythe of natural selection (not unlike eyeglasses or hernia repair), and which would addict him (wed him) to this technology.

One argument could be: Why not just lean toward the traditional fantasy (thousands of generations in the making) to get yourself through your day and your life rather than the pills? What's the diff really?

On your last point, though such a cure (under the battle hymn: "Kill Cancer!") would be a great scientific achievement it would ultimately spell ecological disaster at unprecedented scales.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 7, 2013 - 06:46pm PT
On a climbing trip.....glad everyone is having so much fun!
dirtbag

climber
Jan 7, 2013 - 06:55pm PT
Just look at the mess you've started!
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Jan 8, 2013 - 06:25am PT
donini says he's gone climbing, but i'll bet he's lurking over on the boobs thread, where all the tits stay clear of the wringers.

hook-line-and-sinker, healyje, is your sloppy habit of thought, not mine. if you had spent a little time taking heat in real journalism instead of writing the worthless press releases reporters know to distrust, you would know that there's nothing to be "swallowed" at this stage of the china story.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Jan 8, 2013 - 11:06am PT

A vignette of the division in America...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=AtyKofFih8Y
dogtown

Trad climber
Cheyenne, Wyoming and Marshall Islands atoll.
Jan 8, 2013 - 11:09pm PT
Albert Einstein believed in god. This is well known, not exactly a Ignorant American.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Jan 8, 2013 - 11:29pm PT
one of our respectable scientists on this forum recently reported going to a conference where most of the papers were not recognizable, to him, as science. what i recognized in terms of the general subject matter was an interest in areas rumored to involve back-engineering. yes, technology supposedly gained from alien contacts kept secret from the public. in certain circles, it would appear that respectability is being thrown to the wind.

gee Tony, you love to use the conspiratorial tone to make your posts sound so sexy...

...the stuff being reported was not science, it was not "back-engineering" (is that different from "reverse engineering"?) it was pretty much bullshit that hadn't resulted in anything and while one could say it was "speculative" or "revolutionary" or "daringly unconventional" it doesn't amount to anything at all.

It was pseudo-science.

It's ok to say "Ed Hartouni recently reported..." instead of your all too coy "one of our respectable scientists" (I doubt I get much respect from you... actually, and probably don't deserve any anyway).

If you'd like to wager a bit on any of those ideas at that conference I'm sure we could work something out.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jan 9, 2013 - 03:11am PT
TB: if you had spent a little time taking heat in real journalism instead of writing the worthless press releases reporters know to distrust...

Brilliant! Just how is it you arrive at these gems? Hey, dude, my stuff - and that of other folks who actually got down in it and dirty - was the stuff name reporters, who by and large spent all their time in bars and whorehouses, were always trying to buy to pass off as their own (which I will admit was sometimes quite lucrative).

Look, Tony, this sort of thing is exactly the problem. You, and and all the other conspiracy and paranormal nodders, just make sh#t up as you go along and then believe each others' fantastical spews, rants, and conjectures. You've all clearly lost the ability to distinguish fact from fiction and so now dwell in an interconnected web of self-reinforcing fantasy where something either insanely great or horribly frightening lurks in every shadow and alley you pass. But check it out: 99.9999% of the time, they're just empty shadows and alleys. What's more, I suspect all you guys would walk right on by the real thing if ever you stumbled upon it in your illusory hazes.

The real world is not deterministic or controlled - it's random, chaotic, messy, and always lurching out of control. My take is you religious, conspiracy and paranormal folk just can't handle that fact and so desperately cling to a belief that someone - good or evil, human or alien, dead or alive, earthly or divine (it really makes no difference) - has a firm hand on the wheel when that's just not the case at all. And guess what? That's actually the best aspect of being alive, but you have to ease up on the fear and drama queen sliders a hair to enjoy it.

So overall I'm thinking Jim get's it half right with 'America the ignorant' - the other half is 'America the delusional'.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jan 9, 2013 - 04:29am PT
moosedrool: Our project was to create a vehicle that would deliver a gene (DNA) into specific human cells.

Hey, moose, did you catch this one from last week:

Cheap and easy technique to snip DNA could revolutionize gene therapy

Science Express: RNA-Guided Human Genome Engineering via Cas9
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Reno, Nuh VAAAA duh
Jan 9, 2013 - 04:35am PT
Ed Hartouni wrote:

It's ok to say "Ed Hartouni recently reported..." instead of your all too coy "one of our respectable scientists" (I doubt I get much respect from you... actually, and probably don't deserve any anyway).

At least you still have a modicum of his respect! I believe it was just last week that I officially lost his last bit for me. It has plagued me ever since ;).
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Jan 9, 2013 - 05:33am PT
^^^

When I first moved to California I ended up in Stockton. Don't ask. Anyway it was foggy season, this time of year in fact, 5 days ago, 1986 harhar. When it wasn't raining it was foggy. Sunny California, huh?

At first I had no job and no car (neither situation lasted all that long) so for something to do during the day I took to walking the streets of Stockton (!)

I had a thick Tennessee accent. I walked that whole city, end to end. All the neighborhoods :-) And I'd talk to anyone, banger, cop, hooker, priest, I didn't care.

No one ever messed with me, not once. Sometimes, when down in the neighborhoods along Charter Way, a small group would gather to talk to me, lol. They had to be thinking, WHO IS THIS GOMER PYLE DUDE!

Hahahah, know what? They all thought I was crazy, gone round the bend; unhinged. And I'm a biggun too, which helps. F*#king bangers would WAVE at me!

No one messes with the crazies. It becomes a form of self-defense. Just remember that... yall.

Crazy is a form of self-defense.

DMT
drljefe

climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
Jan 9, 2013 - 05:36am PT
Huell Howser. Patron saint of Dingus Milktoast.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Jan 9, 2013 - 05:42am PT
Yup!!!11111

DMT
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Jan 9, 2013 - 06:11am PT
haha, ed--was wondering if you'd be back. please don't call me sexy. you are an always cordial sparring partner, and you'd be surprised at the number of college graduate mathematics majors i've talked with who have never heard of david hilbert. likewise, i have spoken with one professor of physics (claremont) and a caltech/jpl materials scientist who don't know the first thing about the triple alpha process. alas, the scientific "we".

maybe you could link that conference agenda again for andrzej. he's the respect addict here.

healyje should know how little of it i have for "name reporters". they hang out in whorehouses mostly for like company.

the percentage is far worse than 99.9999 for your side, healyje. j. allen hynek discovered that right away when he got hired by the government to debunk it all for the public peanut gallery. and even if it's only 0.0001 for my side, such discrepancies, if they're solid, have been known to upset whole milieux in the fields of science. right, ed?

now if i could only get the OP re-involved. i wonder if he's done many routes on GPA. i wonder what bridwell would say.

a couple quotes for you, dingus:

"hates california
it's cold and it's damp
that's why the lady is a tramp."

and

"since i left plum tree
down in tennessee
it's the first time i've been warm."
dirtbag

climber
Jan 9, 2013 - 06:13am PT
Dingus, my Dad lived in Stockton in the 30s.

In the 70s, my dad went through a nostalgia trip/mid-life crisis, so naturally, we visited his old neighborhood.

If he was alive today, I can't imagine what he would think of what has become of that once sleepy little city.
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Jan 9, 2013 - 06:18am PT
geez you're up early, dirtbag. you must be one really old fart.

stockton is a tough town because of the maritime influence. that's what a good ship canal will do.
dirtbag

climber
Jan 9, 2013 - 06:21am PT
Been up for nearly 2 hours now.