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Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Jan 7, 2013 - 09:00pm PT
moosedrool, my opinion on religion and evolution has always been that the idea of immortality of the soul, a divine protector, eternal paradise are so motivating that they give people a survival benefit compared to people who think their lives are insignificant and that death is the end. It doesnt matter if its true or not, believing it is beneficial. Sort of like believing that rp's and lowe-balls can protect you in a fall.

A second explanation could be that feelings of wonder and mystery about the world, which tend to ascribe everything to God, is a kind of scientific curiosity, and even if the conclusions arent right, its better than not thinking about the world at all. The most primitive spiritual thoughts, 50,000 years ago, led to progress, and we havent evolved much since then.

What did yo think about the Japanese researchers who claim to be able to program cells to go after cancer cells? It would be so amazing to see a cure for cancer in my lifetime.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Jan 7, 2013 - 09:44pm PT
dp, that's an insightful post, really.

Applicable to primitive man, but arguably less so for modern man. What's modern man esp with his science edu to do. Should he live with one foot in reality, the other in escapist fantasy - employing either (depending how one looks at it) cognitive dissonance or non-overlapping magisteria.

Perhaps one foot in and one foot out (toggling back n forth) is the best life strategy for going forward for the most nimble minds of the future. (??)

Moreover, insofar as "elements" of religion or theology are part of our makeup (having evolved together in symbiosis over thousands of generations) - in other words, insofar as they are part of our blood or our dna - does not this toggling strategy make the most sense? Would it not be the most "reasonable" to employ?

Just food for thought.

And then there's this: With all these new pressures set against modern man (due to his rapidly changing environment including rapidly changing awareness of his place in the cosmos) causing angst, depression, ennui - should he utilize pharmaceuticals (as umpteen millions have already begun to do esp in their later years) to deal with these pressures which would arguably screw with the scythe of natural selection (not unlike eyeglasses or hernia repair), and which would addict him (wed him) to this technology.

One argument could be: Why not just lean toward the traditional fantasy (thousands of generations in the making) to get yourself through your day and your life rather than the pills? What's the diff really?

On your last point, though such a cure (under the battle hymn: "Kill Cancer!") would be a great scientific achievement it would ultimately spell ecological disaster at unprecedented scales.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 7, 2013 - 09:46pm PT
On a climbing trip.....glad everyone is having so much fun!
dirtbag

climber
Jan 7, 2013 - 09:55pm PT
Just look at the mess you've started!
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Jan 8, 2013 - 09:25am PT
donini says he's gone climbing, but i'll bet he's lurking over on the boobs thread, where all the tits stay clear of the wringers.

hook-line-and-sinker, healyje, is your sloppy habit of thought, not mine. if you had spent a little time taking heat in real journalism instead of writing the worthless press releases reporters know to distrust, you would know that there's nothing to be "swallowed" at this stage of the china story.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Jan 8, 2013 - 02:06pm PT

A vignette of the division in America...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=AtyKofFih8Y
dogtown

Trad climber
Cheyenne, Wyoming and Marshall Islands atoll.
Jan 9, 2013 - 02:09am PT
Albert Einstein believed in god. This is well known, not exactly a Ignorant American.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Jan 9, 2013 - 02:29am PT
one of our respectable scientists on this forum recently reported going to a conference where most of the papers were not recognizable, to him, as science. what i recognized in terms of the general subject matter was an interest in areas rumored to involve back-engineering. yes, technology supposedly gained from alien contacts kept secret from the public. in certain circles, it would appear that respectability is being thrown to the wind.

gee Tony, you love to use the conspiratorial tone to make your posts sound so sexy...

...the stuff being reported was not science, it was not "back-engineering" (is that different from "reverse engineering"?) it was pretty much bullshit that hadn't resulted in anything and while one could say it was "speculative" or "revolutionary" or "daringly unconventional" it doesn't amount to anything at all.

It was pseudo-science.

It's ok to say "Ed Hartouni recently reported..." instead of your all too coy "one of our respectable scientists" (I doubt I get much respect from you... actually, and probably don't deserve any anyway).

If you'd like to wager a bit on any of those ideas at that conference I'm sure we could work something out.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jan 9, 2013 - 06:11am PT
TB: if you had spent a little time taking heat in real journalism instead of writing the worthless press releases reporters know to distrust...

Brilliant! Just how is it you arrive at these gems? Hey, dude, my stuff - and that of other folks who actually got down in it and dirty - was the stuff name reporters, who by and large spent all their time in bars and whorehouses, were always trying to buy to pass off as their own (which I will admit was sometimes quite lucrative).

Look, Tony, this sort of thing is exactly the problem. You, and and all the other conspiracy and paranormal nodders, just make sh#t up as you go along and then believe each others' fantastical spews, rants, and conjectures. You've all clearly lost the ability to distinguish fact from fiction and so now dwell in an interconnected web of self-reinforcing fantasy where something either insanely great or horribly frightening lurks in every shadow and alley you pass. But check it out: 99.9999% of the time, they're just empty shadows and alleys. What's more, I suspect all you guys would walk right on by the real thing if ever you stumbled upon it in your illusory hazes.

The real world is not deterministic or controlled - it's random, chaotic, messy, and always lurching out of control. My take is you religious, conspiracy and paranormal folk just can't handle that fact and so desperately cling to a belief that someone - good or evil, human or alien, dead or alive, earthly or divine (it really makes no difference) - has a firm hand on the wheel when that's just not the case at all. And guess what? That's actually the best aspect of being alive, but you have to ease up on the fear and drama queen sliders a hair to enjoy it.

So overall I'm thinking Jim get's it half right with 'America the ignorant' - the other half is 'America the delusional'.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jan 9, 2013 - 07:29am PT
moosedrool: Our project was to create a vehicle that would deliver a gene (DNA) into specific human cells.

Hey, moose, did you catch this one from last week:

Cheap and easy technique to snip DNA could revolutionize gene therapy

Science Express: RNA-Guided Human Genome Engineering via Cas9
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Reno, Nuh VAAAA duh
Jan 9, 2013 - 07:35am PT
Ed Hartouni wrote:

It's ok to say "Ed Hartouni recently reported..." instead of your all too coy "one of our respectable scientists" (I doubt I get much respect from you... actually, and probably don't deserve any anyway).

At least you still have a modicum of his respect! I believe it was just last week that I officially lost his last bit for me. It has plagued me ever since ;).
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Jan 9, 2013 - 08:33am PT
^^^

When I first moved to California I ended up in Stockton. Don't ask. Anyway it was foggy season, this time of year in fact, 5 days ago, 1986 harhar. When it wasn't raining it was foggy. Sunny California, huh?

At first I had no job and no car (neither situation lasted all that long) so for something to do during the day I took to walking the streets of Stockton (!)

I had a thick Tennessee accent. I walked that whole city, end to end. All the neighborhoods :-) And I'd talk to anyone, banger, cop, hooker, priest, I didn't care.

No one ever messed with me, not once. Sometimes, when down in the neighborhoods along Charter Way, a small group would gather to talk to me, lol. They had to be thinking, WHO IS THIS GOMER PYLE DUDE!

Hahahah, know what? They all thought I was crazy, gone round the bend; unhinged. And I'm a biggun too, which helps. F*#king bangers would WAVE at me!

No one messes with the crazies. It becomes a form of self-defense. Just remember that... yall.

Crazy is a form of self-defense.

DMT
drljefe

climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
Jan 9, 2013 - 08:36am PT
Huell Howser. Patron saint of Dingus Milktoast.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Jan 9, 2013 - 08:42am PT
Yup!!!11111

DMT
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Jan 9, 2013 - 09:11am PT
haha, ed--was wondering if you'd be back. please don't call me sexy. you are an always cordial sparring partner, and you'd be surprised at the number of college graduate mathematics majors i've talked with who have never heard of david hilbert. likewise, i have spoken with one professor of physics (claremont) and a caltech/jpl materials scientist who don't know the first thing about the triple alpha process. alas, the scientific "we".

maybe you could link that conference agenda again for andrzej. he's the respect addict here.

healyje should know how little of it i have for "name reporters". they hang out in whorehouses mostly for like company.

the percentage is far worse than 99.9999 for your side, healyje. j. allen hynek discovered that right away when he got hired by the government to debunk it all for the public peanut gallery. and even if it's only 0.0001 for my side, such discrepancies, if they're solid, have been known to upset whole milieux in the fields of science. right, ed?

now if i could only get the OP re-involved. i wonder if he's done many routes on GPA. i wonder what bridwell would say.

a couple quotes for you, dingus:

"hates california
it's cold and it's damp
that's why the lady is a tramp."

and

"since i left plum tree
down in tennessee
it's the first time i've been warm."
dirtbag

climber
Jan 9, 2013 - 09:13am PT
Dingus, my Dad lived in Stockton in the 30s.

In the 70s, my dad went through a nostalgia trip/mid-life crisis, so naturally, we visited his old neighborhood.

If he was alive today, I can't imagine what he would think of what has become of that once sleepy little city.
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Jan 9, 2013 - 09:18am PT
geez you're up early, dirtbag. you must be one really old fart.

stockton is a tough town because of the maritime influence. that's what a good ship canal will do.
dirtbag

climber
Jan 9, 2013 - 09:21am PT
Been up for nearly 2 hours now.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jan 9, 2013 - 09:39am PT
Look, no one is saying there aren't perceived aerial visual or radar 'sightings' we can't explain. But the 99.9999% thing comes into play here again, but in this case as the amount of evidence we don't have in all these cases. That no doubt frustrated Hynek to the point of bother and, in conjunction with dealing with Air Force culture over time, set his conjectural wheels spinning out of control to produce such gems as:

Hynek: I hypothesize an 'M&M' technology encompassing the mental and material realms. The psychic realms, so mysterious to us today, may be an ordinary part of an advanced technology.

He had to come up with that because he understood the astronomical distances involved are otherwise insurmountable in explaining any alien visitation at all. But that, however, is the very definition of a conjecture and a clear indicator that he had long since abandoned science for the realm of pseudo-science to explain the explainable. Unfortunately, it's no more or less than unprovable sci-fi.

My dad was an early radar specialist and military test pilot turned commercial pilot who retired from United 747's after a forty year career in the air. He and his friends and acquaintances in the pilot community saw lots of things they couldn't explain, but neither he nor any of his friends ever put the slightest stock in UFO's as anything more than just that - or, as he puts it: "it's all a crock."
TWP

Trad climber
Mancos, CO
Jan 9, 2013 - 09:50am PT
By the content and "quality" of the discourse on this thread, the posters have collectively proven Mr. Donini's thesis: "America the ignorant." Congratulations Mr. Donini: sheer genius.
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