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drewsky
climber
Seattle
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Dec 29, 2012 - 03:33pm PT
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One thing that seems to have been mentioned here but not given proper air time is that the considerable environmental damage of today is not going to magically cease if pot is legalized. In fact, if the legalization bill is something to the effect of big indoor grow-ops getting the green light, then what's to stop a Philip Morris or an RJ Reynolds (with Monsanto providing seeds) stepping in to dominate the industry? I doubt whether those companies could care less about the environment.
Growing pot indoors in CA makes no sense whatsoever given the amount of sun available; I've seen one energy equivalence estimate of 55 gallons of diesel fuel per pound grown indoors (I will admit that I can't verify the source other than to say that it was from an informational pamphlet). I suppose in a municipal grid (as opposed to giant diesel generators helicoptered into the woods) the electricity isn't all from such a filthy source, but still represents significant power usage in a place where the sun shines for free much of the year. Indoor obviously doesn't eliminate the environmental impact of water usage or chemical runoff, although it may concentrate the impact in less wild areas than do the asshats who grow on public land, be they cartel-related or other assorted criminals. Growing it sustainably and organically, outdoors, if more widely practiced, would be a great solution but it probably requires more effort and no one out for a quick buck is going to care enough to invest their time.
The industry obviously has to change and I'm pretty sure that the old guard of cottage industry growers will be disenfranchised regardless. With the market flooded it seems, unfortunately, the perfect time for large-scale state (or federal, eventually? yeesh) run operations to centralize the production and I really don't think this is a viable solution either (and many of those operations are indoor as well, which is even more wasteful). Would it be better to have everyone grow their own and dissolve the industry? I have no idea relative to the impact on power and water usage not to mention the use of fertilizer. Would there be fewer 10-ton stashes of garbage in sensitive forest and river lands? Maybe. Would it be better to have centralized production for the dispensaries and allow people to grow their own, like with ordinary produce?
I think someone said it upstream, but unfortunately (for those whose livelihoods depend on it) the only way to curtail some of the insanity in Northern CA is to remove the financial incentive somehow. I think it would probably be for the better, ultimately, but it might really screw everything up in that region. Tough call, but obviously something is going to change in the next decade, maybe sooner.
PS: I just read Base104's post a little more carefully and wholeheartedly agree, although I wish industry regulation were a little more reliable a tool and doubt that it would be a panacea in this case either.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Dec 29, 2012 - 08:09pm PT
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One thing that seems to have been mentioned here but not given proper air time is that the considerable environmental damage of today is not going to magically cease if pot is legalized. In fact, if the legalization bill is something to the effect of big indoor grow-ops getting the green light, then what's to stop a Philip Morris or an RJ Reynolds (with Monsanto providing seeds) stepping in to dominate the industry? I doubt whether those companies could care less about the environment.
Oh, not true when they are regulated.
When you have a relative few larger operations, it is easy to monitor what they are doing. When you have a hundred thousand small operations located who knows where, it is nearly impossible.
When you create appropriate disincentives, you will have an impact.
For example, you wonder what would happen if confiscation of land were to happen, where environmental crimes occurred?
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Dec 29, 2012 - 08:13pm PT
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It should be considerably cheaper to cultivate marijuana on land that is reasonably flat, with access to transportation, water, power, and people/employees. The main economic reason that they grow in the foothills and mountains is to reduce the likelihood/expense of being arrested, raided, or robbed, hence the acceptance of the increased variable costs. Take those risks away, and most growing will happen in flatter places - just like real regulation of automatic, semi-automatic and assault weapons, it may take a few years to be noticeable, but it will be. Even though the land may cost a bit more.
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Ricky D
Trad climber
Sierra Westside
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Dec 29, 2012 - 09:10pm PT
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Allow me to interject a little reality into this discussion on growing.
Outdoor - yes, the sun is "free" and the land is good and your weed will indeed grow big and full as Ma Nature intended. Unfortunately, what also delights in this paradise are bugs and thingies. Grow outdoors and your weed will ALWAYS be contaminated with insects, mold and fungi.
Two spotted and Black spotted mites from hell, springtails, Botrytis gray mold, Fusarium wilt, aphids, whiteflies - any number of things will absolutely infest any dense bud structure grown in the wild.
Not a big deal if your target buyers are 19 y/o frat boys - but if you are growing for true medical users with compromised immune systems - do you really want to infect them with this variety of potential pathogens?
There is a saying in the biz - "Dirt is Dirty".
Because of this is why I choose to grow indoors in a controlled environment under HID lights in a controlled Hydroponic environment.
I create and control my universe - I command the lights to shine or not, I feed with specific compounds tailored to the needs of the plant during each cycle of it's life. I give it the air it needs but only after filtering it to block spores and flying critters. I monitor and control the temperature for it's benefit. I use organic compounds such as rosemary oil and kelp extract to bolster it's immune system.
I harvest when it tells me to, trim by hand, dry in a humidity controlled room, cure in sterile glass jars and finally, have each run lab tested for the quality of it's inherent value as well as to confirm the absence of foreign materials and contaminants.
There is a difference in approaches to the creation of this product. On one hand, you can take the industrial path, on the other - you can be the whacky heirloom tomato guy at the Farmer's Market.
To equate it to the wine business - you can be a Gallo or you can be a Bien Nacido.
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prickle
Gym climber
globe,az
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Dec 29, 2012 - 09:14pm PT
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Oh, not true when they are regulated.
When you have a relative few larger operations, it is easy to monitor what they are doing. When you have a hundred thousand small operations located who knows where, it is nearly impossible.
When you create appropriate disincentives, you will have an impact.
For example, you wonder what would happen if confiscation of land were to happen, where environmental crimes occurred?
disincentives LOL thats funny..what a fine like BP got?
If you are monsanto you just have the laws changed to your liking.
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Dec 29, 2012 - 09:16pm PT
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Sounds reasonable RickyD... but the wild grown schwag we had in Jamaica was pretty damn ire... maybe it was the all the bugs and mold?
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Dec 29, 2012 - 09:18pm PT
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^^MH is entirely correct^^
The whole point of legalization should be to eliminate the massive amounts of money going to Mexico. That country is now bought and sold by drug cartels who cut off heads more often than Sarah Palin looks in a mirror.
Truly evil people.
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Dec 29, 2012 - 09:24pm PT
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The Mexicans are still smuggling thousands of tons of weed into this country. Are they now growing the super quality stuff like the local growers are?
I looked into growing weed in Colorado once. There are so many weed outlets that the profit isn't that great. So I would say that Colorado grown weed is mainly home grown. It should be.
NORML has all of the weed laws by state on their website. Interesting reading. The biggie is when you go over 100 plants. Automatic long prison term.
For horticulture? You gotta be kidding me. If they have no violent record and plenty of good character witnesses, they should pay a fine and go on. Save prison cells for bad guys.
---An interesting point here is the lobby efforts of the private prison industry. All they want is filled cells. That is how they make money, and being corporations, have no conscience.
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Dec 29, 2012 - 09:37pm PT
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9/10 inmates I worked with in SoCal, all black or hispanic, were in prison for weed.
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Ricky D
Trad climber
Sierra Westside
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Dec 29, 2012 - 09:42pm PT
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FU Dingus - and yes, I mean that in a good way.
My shitty little wine analogy was to compare tasteless industrially produced crap with carefully constructed works or heartfelt art.
Yes MoFo - grapes are grown outside. And yes, grapes do benefit from the presence of mold and fungi.
However, grapes are not given to cancer patients to keep them from puking their guts out every time they try to eat.
My stuff is - I support a Leukemia patient and a Stomach Cancer patient among my small group of members.
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Ricky D
Trad climber
Sierra Westside
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Dec 29, 2012 - 10:12pm PT
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Smoke on DMT!
Love your bear poop stories - you are like the Huell Howser of the Central Valley - only not gay and not on PBS and man I mean this in a damn good way!
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 1, 2013 - 11:47am PT
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Now it appears they are killing off the threatened Fisher. 83% of the Fishers
in this study tested positive for the anti-coagulants found in the rodent
poisons the pot growers are using.
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
Sierra pot-growing sites may be lethal for rare forest animal
Pesticides and poisons commonly used by illegal marijuana growers in the Sierra Nevada are found in dead fishers, a study says.
By Bettina Boxall, Los Angeles Times
June 30, 2013, 11:58 p.m.
The illegal marijuana-growing operations that have proliferated in remote areas of the Sierra Nevada appear to be taking a toll on the fisher, a forest animal whose numbers are dangerously low.
Researchers studying fishers in the Sierra National Forest in the southern Sierra found that mortality rates were significantly higher for females living in areas with a number of marijuana-growing sites.
Liberal amounts of pesticides and anticoagulant rodent poison are commonly used at the operations, tainting small prey the fisher eats.
Although consuming contaminated prey may not kill the fishers outright, it could make them more susceptible to disease and parasites.
"Exposure may predispose an animal to dying from other causes," wrote the authors, who summarized their findings in a paper published this week in the journal Conservation Letters.
Their research was a follow-up to an earlier study that found that tissue of 85% of 46 dead fishers contained traces of anticoagulants. Most of those animals had been killed by predators.
The fisher is a cat-size animal that is a candidate for listing under the federal Endangered Species Act. For the latest study, the scientists trapped fishers, outfitted them with radio collars and released them. The team then compared the animals' movements with the location of marijuana-growing sites found by national forest law enforcement officers.
The final analysis excluded male fishers because their extensive movements made it harder to gauge exposure to the marijuana plots.
Noting that some of the pesticide compounds used at the sites were first developed as nerve agents during World War II, the researchers likened the pot operations to leaking chemical weapons stockpiles.
The association between growing operations and fisher mortality is "strong yet speculative," wrote the authors, who noted it was difficult to determine a specific cause-and-effect relationship.
But they said the contamination raised serious conservation concerns.
"By increasing the number of animals that die from supposedly natural causes, these pesticides may be tipping the balance of recovery for fishers," warned Craig Thompson, the study's lead author and a U.S. Forest Service wildlife ecologist at the Pacific Southwest Research Station.
bettina.boxall@latimes.com
Pot Growers Killing Fishers
It is time to send in the National Guard.
Or better yet use the special ops guys returning from Afghanistan.
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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Yup. Legalize it.
It's a no brainier for most of us, but enforcement budgets are at stake, so it remains illegal.
The prohibition is purely political, and it is wrong.
I can only begin to imagine how much money legalization would save the taxpayers, but it would be dramatic.
Freaking LEO's and their political weight are hurting everyone.
Many of my friends will suffer, but it's for the greater good.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 1, 2013 - 12:42pm PT
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So, pontificators, during the years it takes to get legalized we should just sit back and engage in hand-wringing while those phuktards destroy the environment? (not to mention make it extremely dangerous go into vast areas of NorCal)
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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Obviously, we should enforce it while it's illegal.
We should simply change it's legal status.
Is it possible to put a federal proposition on the ballots? (This may be a dumb question, I'm not very educated about federal law)
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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"Is it possible to put a federal proposition on the ballots?"
Not nationwide.
Once the government gets its hands on something, and f*#ks it up, the best we can do to fix it is elect the right people.
Right now, the Feds are doing things The Democrat Way. We can keep doing it the Democrat Way, or we can elect Republicans ( like The Republican Way would be any better ).
But that's it for our options once we allow The Government to get control of something. We're locked in.
Moral of the story? Be damn careful when you allow the government in, because once in it ain't leaving.
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Crazy Bat
Sport climber
Birmingham, AL & Seweanee, TN
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TWP and Ken M, I am involved with a group her in the east the does clean ups using a modification of a rescue haul system. The modification is that instead of a 3:1 ir 4:1 we use a Ford F 150 or what ever is available. Needing a road nearby is a limitation. Would that work for any of the sites that need work out there?
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Crazy Bat
Sport climber
Birmingham, AL & Seweanee, TN
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Why Dingus. You cant argue with facts. 36 out of 46 animals that wew found dead had rodentside in their system. That is alarming and indicates to me that it could have some impact on teir ability to survive. Neurptoxins slow reaction times in most animals and hemoragic toxins can cause anemia that can lead to weakness and therfore slowed reaction times. Bad things when trying to avoid other predators.
Both have negative implications for fertility.
I can also see eliminating males that travel a much larger range than females who have to stay in a limited area at least durring denning.
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Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
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it is legal, up here in the great white north, where you guys been?
you mean the feds?
screw those fag eaters,
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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This legalization trend is going to start cutting into the CIA's black budget funded by their drug importation business. LOL. Maybe they'll have to turn to kidnapping or worse in their new enterprises?
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