NorCal pot farmers - YOU SUCK BIG TIME !!!!!!

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Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Topic Author's Original Post - Dec 27, 2012 - 08:38am PT
Pot farms wreaking havoc on Northern California environment

Burgeoning marijuana growing operations are sucking millions of gallons of water from coho salmon lifelines and taking other environmental tolls, scientists say.

Wildlife technician Aaron Pole surveys a forest trashed by growers. Ca...
Wildlife technician Aaron Pole surveys a forest trashed by growers. Carbofuran, an insecticide lethal to humans in small doses, is found regularly at large-scale pot farms. Also flowing into the watershed are rodenticides, fungicides, diesel fuel and othe
Credit: (Genaro Molina, Los Angeles Times / November 15, 2012)


By Joe Mozingo, Los Angeles Times
December 23, 2012


EUREKA, Calif. State scientists, grappling with an explosion of marijuana growing on the North Coast, recently studied aerial imagery of a small tributary of the Eel River, spawning grounds for endangered coho salmon and other threatened fish.

In the remote, 37-square-mile patch of forest, they counted 281 outdoor pot farms and 286 greenhouses, containing an estimated 20,000 plants mostly fed by water diverted from creeks or a fork of the Eel. The scientists determined the farms were siphoning roughly 18 million gallons from the watershed every year, largely at the time when the salmon most need it.

"That is just one small watershed," said Scott Bauer, the state scientist in charge of the coho recovery on the North Coast for the Department of Fish and Game. "You extrapolate that for all the other tributaries, just of the Eel, and you get a lot of marijuana sucking up a lot of water. This threatens species we are spending millions of dollars to recover."

The marijuana boom that came with the sudden rise of medical cannabis in California has wreaked havoc on the fragile habitats of the North Coast and other parts of California. With little or no oversight, farmers have illegally mowed down timber, graded mountaintops flat for sprawling greenhouses, dispersed poisons and pesticides, drained streams and polluted watersheds.

Because marijuana is unregulated in California and illegal under federal law, most growers still operate in the shadows, and scientists have little hard data on their collective effect. But they are getting ever more ugly snapshots.

A study led by researchers at UC Davis found that a rare forest carnivore called a fisher was being poisoned in Humboldt County and near Yosemite in the Sierra Nevada.

The team concluded in its July report that the weasel-like animals were probably eating rodenticides that marijuana growers employ to keep animals from gnawing on their plants, or they were preying on smaller rodents that had consumed the deadly bait. Forty-six of 58 fisher carcasses the team analyzed had rat poison in their systems.

Mark Higley, a wildlife biologist on the Hoopa Indian Reservation in eastern Humboldt who worked on the study, is incredulous over the poisons that growers are bringing in.

"Carbofuran," he said. "It seems like they're using that to kill bears and things like that that raid their camps. So they mix it up with tuna or sardine, and the bears eat that and die."

The insecticide is lethal to humans in small doses, requires a special permit from the EPA and is banned in other countries. Authorities are now regularly finding it at large-scale operations in some of California's most sensitive ecosystems.

It is just one in a litany of pollutants seeping into the watershed from pot farms: fertilizers, soil amendments, miticides, rodenticides, fungicides, plant hormones, diesel fuel, human waste.

Scientists suspect that nutrient runoff from excess potting soil and fertilizers, combined with lower-than-normal river flow due to diversions, has caused a rash of toxic blue-green algae blooms in the North Coast rivers over the last decade.

The cyanobacteria outbreaks threaten public health for swimmers and kill aquatic invertebrates that salmon and steelhead trout eat. Now, officials warn residents in late summer and fall to stay out of certain stretches of water and keep their dogs out. Eleven dogs have died from ingesting the floating algae since 2001.

The effects are disheartening to many locals because healthier salmon runs were signaling that the rivers were gradually improving from the damage caused by more than a century of logging.

"Now with these water diversions, we're potentially slamming the door on salmon recovery," said Scott Greacen, director of Friends of the Eel River.

In June, Bauer and other agency scientists accompanied game wardens as they executed six search warrants on growers illegally sucking water from tributaries of the Trinity River. At one, he came upon a group of 20-somethings with Michigan license plates on their vehicles, camping next to 400 plants. He followed an irrigation line up to a creek, where the growers had dug a pond and lined it with plastic.

"I started talking to this guy, and he says he used to be an Earth First! tree-sitter, saving the trees," Bauer said. "I told him everything he was doing here negates everything he did as an environmentalist."

The man was a small-timer in this new gold rush. As marijuana floods the market and prices drop, many farmers are cultivating ever bigger crops to make a profit. They now cut huge clearings for industrial-scale greenhouses. With no permits or provisions for runoff, the operations dump tons of silt into the streams during the rainy season.

Scanning Google Earth in his office recently, Bauer came upon a "mega grow" that did not exist the year before a 4-acre bald spot in the forest with 42 greenhouses, each 100 feet long.

Figuring a single greenhouse that size would hold 80 plants, and each plant uses about 5 gallons of water a day, he estimated the operation would consume 2 million gallons of water in the dry season and unleash a torrent of sediment in the wet season.

"There has been an explosion of this in the last two years," he said. "We can't keep up with it."

Every grow has its own unique footprint. Some farmers on private land avoid pesticides and poisons, get their water legally, keep their crops small and try to minimize their runoff. Urban indoor growers might not pollute a river, but they guzzle energy. A study in the journal Energy Policy calculated that indoor marijuana cultivation could be responsible for 9% of California's household electricity use. Other producers, like the Mexican drug trafficking groups who set up giant grows on public lands right next to mountain streams, spread toxins far and wide and steal enough water to run oscillating sprinkler systems.

But it's not just the big criminal groups skirting the rules. Tony LaBanca, senior environmental scientist at Fish and Game in Eureka, said less than 1% of marijuana growers get the permits required to take water from a creek, and those who do usually do it after an enforcement action.

Responsible growers could easily get permits, with no questions asked about what type of plant they're watering, LaBanca said. They just need to be set up to take their water in the wet season and store it in tanks and bladders.

Fish and Game wants to step up enforcement, but the staff is overwhelmed, he said. The agency has 12 scientists and 15 game wardens in the entire four counties on the North Coast, covering thousands of mountainous square miles.

Until the last few years, dealing with marijuana cultivation was usually a minor issue. Now, LaBanca said, it is "triage."

On a recent day, Higley, the Hoopa wildlife biologist, took a reporter and photographer to some of the damage he finds in the most remote mountains, where bears, fishers, martens, rare salamanders and spotted owls live in cloud-mist forests. With his colleague Aaron Pole at the wheel, Higley headed north up the Bigfoot Highway and then up a dirt logging road 13 miles into the snow-peaked Trinities.

They were going to a grow that the sheriff had raided by helicopter in August. Deputies cut down 26,600 plants in eight interconnected clearings along Mill Creek, which flows into the Trinity River.

They parked the truck and started threading down precipitous slopes, through thick wet brush and forest. They stepped over bear scat, slippery roots and coastal giant salamanders.

Crossing a 2-foot-wide creek, they came across a black irrigation line. Vague footpaths emerged, empty Coors cans began glinting in the mud, more water pipes spidered out.

After another 40 minutes, they reached a clearing in the bottom of the canyon a field of stumps, holes of dark potting soil and hacked-down stalks of marijuana. Dead gray brush and logs ringed the site. A few heavily pruned trees were left standing, to help mask the marijuana grove from the air.

Deputies had severed the irrigation lines during the August raid, but when Higley returned in September to study the environmental impact, some of the line had been reconnected to sprinklers and plants had re-sprouted. He saw a wet bar of soap on an upturned bucket and realized workers were hiding nearby.

On this return visit, the site was empty, and he started picking through the rubbish. "That's d-CON rat poison right there, 16 trays."

At a dump pile next to the creek, he found propane tanks, more rat poison, cans of El Pato tomato sauce, and empty bags of Grow More fertilizer, instant noodles and tortillas.

A lot of the trash had been removed during the sheriff's eradication dozens of empty bags accounting for 2,700 pounds of fertilizer and boxes for 10 pounds of d-CON (enough to kill 21 spotted owls and up to 28 fishers), as well as two poached deer carcasses and the remains of a state-protected ringtailed cat.

"It wouldn't matter if they were growing tomatoes, corn and squash," he said. "It's trespassing, it's illegal and it borders on terrorism to the environment."

joe.mozingo@latimes.com


Copyright 2012, Los Angeles Times

Pot Farm Eco Disaster

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

The local sheriffs are sh!t scared - I say turn the 82nd Airborne loose on 'em.

10b4me

Boulder climber
Somewhere on 395
Dec 27, 2012 - 08:44am PT
Yeah, that's f*#ked up
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Dec 27, 2012 - 08:48am PT
The local sheriffs are sh!t scared - I say turn the 82nd Airborne loose on 'em

Local shefiffs ain't "scared", they just know where the money that makes their little burgs function comes from.

Legalize it and all those covert grows go away. Much easier to plant some flat acres in the central valley than sneaking around the forest. MJ prohibition is one of the most idiotic, ineffective things we do.
Sioux Juan

Big Wall climber
Costa mesa
Dec 27, 2012 - 08:49am PT
hydroponics only........did I spell that right?
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Dec 27, 2012 - 08:55am PT
If it weren't for the risk of losing their homes, I'm guessing most stoners would much rather grow their own.

Thank god the government protects us from that evil plant... and allows easy access to semiautomatic weapons so we can protect ourselves fro the zombie apocalypse. USA USA USA
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Dec 27, 2012 - 08:58am PT
there should be a thread about how much sh#t the moonshiners leave behind.
read this article in last weeks times.
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Dec 27, 2012 - 09:25am PT
Make it Legal.

Simple solution.

Ill grow my own.

And spend my $$$$$ on climbing gear.

Maybe have enuf to travel overseas.

Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Dec 27, 2012 - 09:34am PT
This is the same reason the Carson area and highway 50 corridor now have helo flights daily, and nightly. I cleaned up trash of that nature last year at a local crag where they dumped. The economic times have also pushed more into this line of operations.

The affects are that the focus is now back on POT growing,,due to for the most, those that come into Cali from elsewhere. Much like Nevada- the only saving grace for us being a SHORT grow season compared to lower elevations of Cali.

These new growers are indeed giving a bad name to those that have operated with no issues for decades. Its horrific to see the enviromental damage done by what is supposed to be a healing natural herb- and oxy -moronic situation no doubt.
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Dec 27, 2012 - 09:38am PT
So whats the problem? Thats just free enterprise unfettered by the yoke of onerous regulation. Its good for the economy you bunch of cry babies.

Heyzeus

climber
Hollywood,Ca
Dec 27, 2012 - 09:38am PT
This companion article also sheds some light on the comments upthread:
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-north-coast-pot-20120930,0,3089567,full.story

mainly that the loosening of mj law is driving the mom-and-pops growers out of business, and they are the ones who's pot money supports the sheriff, schools, fire dept. etc.

Make it legal and RJ Reynold's et al will be growing in the central valley and the Northern Coast will suffer mightily.
locker

Social climber
state of Kumbaya...
Dec 27, 2012 - 09:41am PT


"Thank god the government protects us from that evil plant... and allows easy access to semiautomatic weapons" and ALCOHOL...

;-)

Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Dec 27, 2012 - 10:14am PT
It makes me think the Bigfoot sightings in that region are pot growers in disguise.
hooblie

climber
from out where the anecdotes roam
Dec 27, 2012 - 10:53am PT
i CAN'T STAND it:

http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/934012/not-willing-to-relinquish-this-land

glad the the OP article highlights about the enviro-atrocities so well.
that angle should leave no demographic unperturbed
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Dec 27, 2012 - 11:05am PT
from Hoobies article:



vestigators found 30,000 top-grade cannabis plants ranging in height from 2 feet to 6 feet. Stacks of propane tanks, melted irrigation tubing, empty fertilizer canisters, mounds of trash, a torched cooking stove and a semiautomatic rifle were also found at the Los Padres National Forest location, the sheriff and other agents said.

U.S. Forest Service fire investigators believe a propane-fed camp stove sparked the fire Aug. 8.

"This is the trend," Russ Arthur, a special agent for the U.S. Forest Service, said at a Santa Barbara news conference. "I've been involved in hundreds of arrests and all of the suspects have been Mexican nationals."

Drug rings south of the border send workers to plant in densely forested areas of the U.S. in early spring. The workers care for the plants for four to five months, camping out until it is time to harvest, agents said.

California's state and national forests are favored locations because of the good weather and soil.

The remote pot farm where the La Brea fire started is in a steep, overgrown canyon more than a mile from the nearest road, investigators said.

Growers terraced the plants up a mountainside, diverting a nearby stream to provide drip irrigation to the plants, they said.

The fire burned away from the farm and it appeared that the growers stayed for a while until firefighters drew close. They fled and are believed to still be in the forest, attempting to leave on foot, Sheriff's Lt. Sonny Legault said.

Authorities cautioned rural residents not to approach people leaving the forest because they could be armed.

It's been a record year of pot seizures for the state and federal agents who work with the Santa Barbara County narcotics unit each summer to eradicate illicit farms. So far they have pulled 225,058 plants with an estimated street value of $675 million.

Many of the illegal farms were not far from where the fire started. In late July, agents pulled 113,000 plants from one site, a record for the multi-agency team.

Legault said the increase in seizures is not a result of more law enforcement manpower. He said pot growers have become more sophisticated, planting multiple sites with bigger farms.

Brown agreed, saying it's virtually impossible to get rid of all the marijuana grown in the state's forests.

He suspects that there are many more undetected pot farms.

"The reality is we could have an army out there and not be able to cover all of that ground," the sheriff said.

After a 10-day battle, firefighters on Tuesday were close to completing containment lines around the La Brea fire. Firefighters were still dousing hot spots and making aerial attacks, officials said.

Ads by Google


That from 09.. We now have HS flights of helos through out the general carson -carson valley- and hgwy 50 corridors over these activities. I remember vividly getting beat up on here for posting about this last year when i found sacks of plantation garbage and knew the very minute i found it - who had dumped that trash. But i was labeled "racist" which simply had nothing to do with it. I made the comments that if you invite a mass of illegals from a third world country, you WILL get the very most undesirable aspects too, namely Cartels. Its really hard to give drug dealers a bad name, but cartels do exactly that.
Riley Wyna

Trad climber
A crack near you
Dec 27, 2012 - 11:14am PT
Wow - a libertarian's/ right wingers wet dream!
Unfettered capitalism!
Give the men their freedoms!!
Get some wall street and corporate types in there and take it to the next level brah!
F*#k samon! And water...and that stupid forest..
Bunch of enviro- wackos
moosedrool

Trad climber
lost, far away from Poland
Dec 27, 2012 - 11:19am PT
I have never used marihuana, but I voted for legalization. The same with other drugs. The war with drugs will not end until there is no incentive in selling them. I don't like those choices, but there is no other way.
Prod

Trad climber
Dec 27, 2012 - 11:23am PT
Legalize it and all those covert grows go away. Much easier to plant some flat acres in the central valley than sneaking around the forest. MJ prohibition is one of the most idiotic, ineffective things we do.

+1.

Prod.
Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
Dec 27, 2012 - 11:28am PT
Ha-ha-ha-ha!

Don't blame the pot growers. Put the blame where it really belongs - on the pot smokers.
Bruce Morris

Social climber
Belmont, California
Dec 27, 2012 - 01:52pm PT
I think it's doubly ironic that when well-intentioned environmentalists succeeded in creating a huge environmental preserve in Castle Rock State Park along the headwaters of the San Lorenzo River, they also made the same area into an ideal location for commercial marijuana cultivation. Hence, while keeping climbers out of that area, they in effect made it into a dumping ground for all the debris and environmental pollutants associated with growing pot on a grand scale. Now, State Park Rangers are too scared to patrol that area because of all the pot watchers armed with AR-15s. The so-called nature preserve has in effect become a lawless free-fire war zone. The nature preserve concept would work of course if everyone in our society were eco-freaks and nature nazis living in upscale Monte Sereno and Los Gatos. Unfortunately in our current upstairs/downstairs society, there are also a class of people known as "criminals" who don't give a rat's ass about endangered salamanders and frogs.
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Dec 27, 2012 - 02:35pm PT
Buy local folks.
locker

Social climber
state of Kumbaya...
Dec 27, 2012 - 02:36pm PT


Better yet, grow your own...

;-)

mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Dec 27, 2012 - 02:38pm PT
In the case of this clean-up, they are picking up potential targets--bottles and cans, while (maybe) presenting themselves as targets for the local growers, maybe. It's a shame the f*#kers think pot is so worth the risk they'd shoot someone's kids for it. But they would and they will.

Are there instances of kids getting blasted by pot farmers? It seems likely.

http://www.goodkarmaforall.org/2012/04/audubon-birds-of-prey-center-lake.html#!/2012/04/audubon-birds-of-prey-center-lake.html
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Dec 27, 2012 - 02:47pm PT
As some of you may know, I'm very active with a trail maintenance group....but we also have a division that works on restoring pot farms, after the weed has been removed by LEO's.

We take out all the stuff that has been taken into the backcountry, usually in huge cargo nets under helicopters. For a typical grow site, there are miles of irrigation tubing, and literally TONS of trash.

I am frequently astonished by the volume of stuff that has been dragged in by hand to locations that you need to be a mountain goat to access.

At times, we have needed to wear full Hazmat suits to safely operate. A lot of chemicals.

I believe we've cleaned up over 500 sites in the last 8 years.
Tami

Social climber
Canada
Dec 27, 2012 - 02:56pm PT
These grows exist because someone sees it as a viable way to make money.

Since the product in question is illegal, legalization would theoretically go towards diminishing these illegal grows.

I'm not entirely convinced, however, that full legalization and regulation will, in fact, eliminate these grows. As long as there is a monetary benefit to the grow - then it will happen.

I think of marijuana along the same lines as tomatoes. People grow them in home & community gardens but also purchase the fruit from stores.

I feel that in order to stop these illegal grows, the drug must be made legal but it must also be made cheap.

If there's little money in growing it.......it will become less of a commodity.

My 2c. And I'm not a weed-smoker.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Dec 27, 2012 - 03:00pm PT
no but your sensible.

The war on at least POT was lost even before the infamous refer madness movie.. Much like prohibition proved to be, if people demand , you wont stop.

Perhaps if they medicated depression with ganj instead of pills with side effects longer than you leg,,,who knows...
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 27, 2012 - 03:04pm PT
Another example.

Drug laws do more harm than good.
mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Dec 27, 2012 - 03:07pm PT
Malaysian legislation provides for a mandatory death penalty for convicted drug traffickers. Individuals arrested in possession of 15 grams (1/2 ounce) of heroin or 200 grams (seven ounces) of marijuana are presumed by law to be trafficking in drugs.--Wiki

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legality_of_cannabis_by_country
For what it's worth.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Dec 27, 2012 - 03:10pm PT
The near analogy for illegal grow-ops seems to be tobacco. A few people grow and cure their own, most just buy it. Somewhat different history and culture for those who grow marijuana, but I suspect that if there's reasonable regulation as to quality and production, over time most will be grown on farms, and most will just buy the stuff at the store.
zBrown

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Dec 27, 2012 - 03:42pm PT
Bruce Morris

Social climber
Belmont, California
Dec 27, 2012 - 03:51pm PT
Ken M, we need some people like you to go down below the Underworld area in Castle Rock SP and cart back up all the growing materials and irrigation conduit left down there by the growers beneath the Green Monster formation. The stuff has been left down there for at least 5 years and, as far as I know, no one has done anything about it so far. Correct me if I'm wrong I hope.
TWP

Trad climber
Mancos, CO
Dec 27, 2012 - 05:01pm PT
^^^^

"Ken M, we need some people like you to go down below the Underworld area in Castle Rock SP and cart back up all the growing materials and irrigation conduit left down there by the growers beneath the Green Monster formation. "



Hey, why do "SOME PEOPLE" need to clean up this mess?

Why not YOU (Bruce Morris) be the organizer. Why not SUPERTOPEANS (specifically those who most likely would use Castle Rock/Green Monster) be the organizers?

Reminds me of the old story entitled "Whose Job Is It" and it's about somebody, nobody and everybody:

It goes like this:


"This is a story about four people named Everybody, Somebody,

Anybody, and Nobody. There was an important job to be done and

Everybody was asked to do it. Everybody was sure Somebody would

do it. Anybody could have done it, but Nobody did it. Somebody

got angry about that, because it was Everybody's job. Everybody

thought Anybody could do it but Nobody realized that Everybody

wouldn't do it. It ended up that Everybody blamed Somebody when

Nobody did what Anybody could have done."
the albatross

Gym climber
Flagstaff
Dec 27, 2012 - 05:38pm PT
Here is an interesting film called "Breaking the Taboo" which discusses the tragedy and failure of the war on drugs.

"Narrated by Morgan Freeman and Gael Garcia Bernal, this groundbreaking new documentary uncovers the UN sanctioned war on drugs, charting its origins and its devastating impact on countries like the USA, Colombia and Russia. Featuring prominent statesmen including Presidents Clinton and Carter, the film follows The Global Commission on Drug Policy on a mission to break the political taboo and expose the biggest failure of global policy in the last 50 years."

2 minute trailer:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2vqpNT1kV4
paganmonkeyboy

climber
mars...it's near nevada...
Dec 27, 2012 - 06:09pm PT
"Don't blame the pot growers. Put the blame where it really belongs - on the pot smokers."

this sounds rather simplistic and parroted talking point rather than well thought out to me - by the same logic : so car drivers are responsible for oil spills ?
Ricky

climber
Sometimes LA
Dec 27, 2012 - 06:23pm PT
The near analogy for illegal grow-ops seems to be tobacco.

Moonshine.
Ricky D

Trad climber
Sierra Westside
Dec 27, 2012 - 08:12pm PT
The same LATimes also ran an article a few days later NOW stating that the Mexican Cartel Connection might be a wee bit overblown. The gist of the article suggests that what we really have in the woods are a bunch of out-of-work former Construction Framers and Field Workers looking to make a few bucks.

In other words - the big bad drug boogie man turns out to mostly be unemployed guys named Gonzalez from Fresno.

While the connection to major Mexican drug cartels may be mostly SWAT Team wet dreams, the fact remains that these dirtbags are trashing the woods in a big way. That has to stop.

Also to be asked is who is doing the buying of this garbage?

In state, a lot of this blood weed goes to the marginal low rent dispensaries in LA, with a fair amount also being picked up by so-called Brokers who ship it to the East Coast where yokels will buy anything that even looks like weed.

The reputable dispensaries generally buy from known growers with well-documented nurseries and methods of cultivation. When I was donating to a couple of local centers - I had to be inspected before acceptance as a grower/patient and always had my produce tested for contaminants prior to release for users.

This problem with guerrillas will not go away until the demand for their cheap crap stops. Either grow your own (expensive and not easy with today's finicky strains)or shop with a reputable collective.

zBrown

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Dec 27, 2012 - 08:24pm PT
My 2c. And I'm not a weed-smoker.

I have tried it on more than one occasion, did inhale, but would not recommend smoking it to anyone. zBrownies should be evaluated, but here I have no recommendation.
Josh Higgins

Trad climber
San Diego
Dec 27, 2012 - 08:36pm PT
Supply and demand: pot smokers suck big time also. They fund some pretty disgusting things in this world to feed their habit/addiction.

Josh
rincon

Trad climber
SoCal
Dec 27, 2012 - 08:41pm PT
They fund some pretty disgusting things in this world to feed their habit/addiction.

The same could said about people who eat beef and poultry.
paganmonkeyboy

climber
mars...it's near nevada...
Dec 27, 2012 - 08:42pm PT
I hear that whole post in your Smoooooove voice Mr Ricky D - tingles ;-)

why are you not on the radio...
Ricky D

Trad climber
Sierra Westside
Dec 27, 2012 - 08:48pm PT
Well...at least ONE of us was medicated ;)

Seeing stars
Seeing stars
Credit: Ricky D
paganmonkeyboy

climber
mars...it's near nevada...
Dec 27, 2012 - 08:57pm PT
omg dude i'm laughing my ass off - i need to get my sh#t out there, and soon...


we should stage a smoke out. Only organically grown certified safe and approved weed, burn the chem crap in a pile in front of us, sit on the steps of the state capitol and send a statement...order some food...
MisterE

Social climber
Dec 27, 2012 - 09:02pm PT
Hey, I like the thread hijack! Pictures of PMB pointing aimlessly - who knew?

Credit: MisterE
paganmonkeyboy

climber
mars...it's near nevada...
Dec 27, 2012 - 09:09pm PT
careful - there are Hundreds of these ;-) since I never have two arms and don't climb on film...

that's shortly before I left the ground without my harness doubled back, btw...this day is FOREVER BURNED IN MY MIND ;-) that could have been sooooo ugli...don't ever talk to riley while peeing dammit...
Gary

Social climber
Right outside of Delacroix
Dec 27, 2012 - 09:28pm PT
http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/library/studies/cu/cumenu.htm

Consumer Reports knew the answer back in the '70s. When will we learn?
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Dec 27, 2012 - 09:33pm PT
TWP wrote:

"Ken M, we need some people like you to go down below the Underworld area in Castle Rock SP and cart back up all the growing materials and irrigation conduit left down there by the growers beneath the Green Monster formation. "



Hey, why do "SOME PEOPLE" need to clean up this mess?

Why not YOU (Bruce Morris) be the organizer. Why not SUPERTOPEANS (specifically those who most likely would use Castle Rock/Green Monster) be the organizers?

Reminds me of the old story entitled "Whose Job Is It" and it's about somebody, nobody and everybody:

To be fair to Bruce, I thought the same at first. However, when I actually participated, it was an eye-opener.

First, this is on public land. You can't just go do this stuff. You are out in a growth site without permission, you might be mistaken in your intent.

Second, one needs training in how to handle some of this stuff. It's not my specialty (I tend to stick to trailwork these days), but one has to get a lot of training to do this stuff. Just to work around helicopters takes training and equipment.

There is a fair amount of specialized gear needed, such as the helicoptor nets. (oh, and helicoptors....and they don't come cheap) On the Sierra west side we often work with H-40, the CHP helo out of Fresno, the same one that does evac in Yos. They are highly skilled guys.

So it is not as simple to organize as it might seem.
Bruce Morris

Social climber
Belmont, California
Dec 27, 2012 - 09:43pm PT
That's the real problem, Ken M: It's illegal to go to the area in the first place & you'd need to receive permission from State Parks to actually visit the bottom land there on "official business". So far, from what I've heard, the Rangers haven't taken it out probably because it would take a heck of a lot of work carting all those oil drums and pieces of conduit up 1,400 ft of watershed gully choked with stinging nettles. The best way would be for helicopters to land and fly back out with the stuff hanging from below. I doubt there's a budget or the political will necessary to do just that. A nice little 2,800 ft round trip to carry back one piece of pipe or one oil drum just doesn't make a dent in the garbage pile. People are talking about doing it and that's a big step in the right direction. There was a shoot out in Castle Rock State Park below the waterfall once. A grower was killed or wounded I believe. Just wouldn't be a good idea to go snooping around down there without the Rangers in on the caper. Will ask around and see what the current status of the site is today. I've heard there's plastic pipe, metal oil drums and bags of fertilizer, but would need to inspect the site and see what needs to come back up.
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Dec 27, 2012 - 09:46pm PT
The locals need to run those Mexicans out of town. Homegrown weed should end any profitability of Mexican Cartel run grow operations in Cali.

Seriously. Grow more weed, sustainably, force the price down by oversupply, and narc on every Mexican operation period. They couldn't care less about the environment.

As for the weapons, weed growers get their crops ripped off. Most of them wouldn't shoot to harm.

As marijuana becomes legal, the profit will go out of it. The cartels won't make any money smuggling in weed. This will help empty our prisons of non violent offenders.

I don't even smoke pot, but giving a dime to the Mexican Cartels is like passing the hat for Satan.
Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
Dec 28, 2012 - 05:33am PT
this sounds rather simplistic and parroted talking point rather than well thought out to me - by the same logic : so car drivers are responsible for oil spills ?


If the shoe fits, wear it
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Dec 28, 2012 - 06:26am PT
Interesting article in the Sacramento Bee over the holiday about pot grows here in California - quoting a guy in charge of a federal task forced based in Bakersfield?

There is no proof at all, none, that cartels have anything at all to do with grows.

Zero.

He said they've tried for a decade to even FIND a connection, much less prove one, nada.

He said these grows are crimes of opportunities. The workers are usually immigrant or illegal workers who don't even know who they work for - $100 a day cash to tend the crops.

The grow in the article was being run by a couple of guys in Bakersfield, no connection to any cartel.

DMT
dipper

climber
Dec 28, 2012 - 06:50am PT
Yesterday on KQED radio was an interesting show. As the price goes down, long time growers in Humboldt/Mendo area are planting more to keep revenue the same. They are taking so much water out of the rivers, it is affecting coho salmon negatively.

The point brought up in the Bee article DMT mentions is brought up as well.

Guests:

Anthony (Tony) Silvaggio, lecturer in the department of sociology at Humboldt State University, and an environmental sociologist with the newly formed Humboldt Institute for Interdisciplinary Marijuana Research

Charley Custer, marijuana grower and co-founder of the Tea House Collective, a collective of Humboldt farmers who grow organic, sustainably farmed cannabis

Mike Jakubal, documentary filmmaker, environmental activist and 20-year resident of Humboldt County

Scott Bauer, staff environmental scientist for the California Department of Fish and Game

Scott Greacen, executive director of Friends of the Eel River, a nonprofit dedicated to restoring the Eel River and tributaries



http://www.kqed.org/a/forum/R201212270900
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 28, 2012 - 07:55am PT
And don't overlook the estimate that 10% of the electricity used in Cali
is going towards indoor pot farms. Do we really need that?
Heyzeus

climber
Hollywood,Ca
Dec 28, 2012 - 08:53am PT

Veteran Emerald Triangle pot growers see their way of life ending
Pioneering marijuana cultivators in the hills of Mendocino and Humboldt counties are being pushed to the margins by the legalization they long espoused.


By Joe Mozingo, Los Angeles Times

September 29, 2012, 5:03 p.m.

LAYTONVILLE, CALIF. In the mountains of Mendocino County, a middle-aged couple stroll into the cool morning air to plant the year's crop. Andrew grabs a shovel and begins to dig up rich black garden beds while Anna waters the seedlings, beginning a hallowed annual ritual here in marijuana's Emerald Triangle.

In the past, planting day was a time of great expectations, maybe for a vacation in Hawaii or Mexico during the rainy months or a new motor home to make deliveries around the country.

But this year, Andrew and Anna are hoping only that their 50 or so marijuana plants will cover the bills. Since the mid-1990s, the price of outdoor-grown marijuana has plummeted from more than $5,000 a pound to less than $2,000, and even as low as $800.

Battered by competition from indoor cultivators around the state and industrial-size operations that have invaded the North Coast counties, many of the small-time pot farmers who created the Emerald Triangle fear that their way of life of the last 40 years is coming to an end.

PHOTOS: Up in smoke

Their once-quiet communities, with their back-to-nature ethos, are being overrun by outsiders carving massive farms out of the forest. Robberies are commonplace now, and the mountains reverberate with the sounds of chain saws and heavy equipment.

"Every night we hear helicopters now," Anna said. "It's people moving big greenhouses and generators into the mountains."

Andrew, 56, and Anna, 52, who agreed to be interviewed only if they would be identified by their middle names, live in a rambling house down a trail through tanoaks and Douglas firs. Their electricity comes from a windmill and solar panels, their water from a spring. They cook on a wood stove and use an outhouse with a composting toilet to conserve water for their crop.

Though they are not complete back-to-the-landers they have a nice car, satellite TV and Internet access they keep their gardens relatively small, tucked in the trees throughout their property.

Among their plants, they post their own medical marijuana cards so that if they're raided, it looks as though they're growing under the aegis of state law. But because dispensaries generally prefer the more potent weed grown indoors, they still sell mostly to the black market, where mom-and-pop growers now struggle to compete.

"These big commercial growers have really ruined our business," Anna said.

Until recently, life in the hills of Mendocino and Humboldt counties had changed little in the decades since hippies from the Bay Area began homesteading here. The pioneers initially grew marijuana for themselves and to make a little money.

Then in the 1980s, cultivation of high-grade seedless marijuana opened the possibility for big money as it brought a higher premium. Many of the farmers cashed in. But many remained small and discreet to avoid attracting the attention of state and federal agents.

They raised their families where they cultivated. They drove beat-up Subarus and small Toyota pickups, pumped their water from wells and chopped their own firewood.

The mountain hamlets operated like breakaway states. Marijuana farmers paid for community centers, fire departments, road maintenance and elementary schools.

Even today, small cannabis-funded volunteer fire stations and primary schools are scattered throughout the ranges. And the local radio station, KMUD, announces the sheriff's deputies' movements as part of its public service mandate.

But the liberalization of marijuana laws in the last decade upended the status quo.

From Oakland to the Inland Empire, people began cultivating indoors on an unprecedented scale at the same time that growers from around the world flooded the North Coast because of its remoteness and deep-rooted counterculture.

Now, with the market glutted, people are simply planting ever-larger crops to make up for the drop in price.

Longtime residents complain that the newcomers cut down trees, grade hillsides, divert creeks to irrigate multi-thousand-plant crops, use heavy pesticides and rat poisons, and run giant, smog-belching diesel generators to illuminate indoor grows. They blaze around in Dodge monster trucks and Cadillac Escalades and don't contribute to upkeep of the roads or schools.

"They just don't care," said Kym Kemp, a teacher and blogger in the mountains of Sohum, as locals call southern Humboldt County. "They're not thinking, 'I want my kids to grow up here.'

"Now there are greenhouses the size of a football field that weren't even there last year," she added.

Kemp said she feels her region is being colonized and worries about the colorful, off-the-grid people that small cannabis patches long supported.

"So many people who live here are just different," she said. "They don't fit in regular society. They couldn't work 9-to-5 jobs. But they've gotten used to raising their kids on middle-class incomes. What are they going to do?"

Tom Evans, 61, a small-time grower in northern Mendocino, said the sense of peace and self-reliance he moved here for 30 years ago is disappearing so fast that he may leave for Mexico.

"It used to be a contest to see who could drive the oldest pickup truck," said Evans, a former Army helicopter mechanic who sports a woolly gray beard and tie-dyed shirt. "There's just been this huge influx of folks who have money on their mind, instead of love of the land. A lot more gun-toters. A lot more attack dogs."

Evans lives in a small rented home that generously could be called a fixer-upper. He said he doesn't have a bank account or credit card, and his Honda Passport has more than 300,000 miles. "It's 'make a living, not a killing,'" he said.

His friend, a bear of man who goes by the name Mr. Fuzzy, noted that it's not only outsiders causing problems.

"You know the weird part, these are our kids too," he said.

It's a recurring lament among longtime growers. Some of their own children are going for the large-scale grows, big money and fancy cars.

The larger irony is that the marijuana pioneers are being pushed to the margins by the legalization they long espoused.

"Ultimately we worry about Winston or Marlboro getting some land and doing their thing," said Lawrence Ringo, a 55-year-old grower and seed breeder deep in the wilds of Sohum. "We see it time after time in America big corporations come in and take over."

Ringo saw the 2010 marijuana initiative, Proposition 19, as a ploy by Bay Area activists to dominate the market with giant warehouse grows in Oakland.

He suspects plenty of people will still want high-quality, organically grown cannabis but fears the big business interests will dictate how marijuana gets regulated. Ringo points out that Colorado, the one state that fully regulates marijuana, helped push most growing indoors and place cultivation under the control of large dispensaries.

"We're afraid of losing what we've been doing for 40 years," he said.

As competition drives prices down, even chamber of commerce types acknowledge that the North Coast economy is at risk. Pot kept things afloat as the logging and fishing industries declined. Restaurants, car dealerships, banks, hotels and dental clinics all depend on marijuana money.

"There's probably not one business that doesn't benefit," said Julie Fulkerson, who founded a home furnishings store and comes from a prominent third-generation Humboldt family.

Walk into the upscale Cecil's New Orleans Bistro in small-town Garberville and you'll find growers in dirty T-shirts unpeeling rolls of $20 bills to pay for martinis and $38 steaks. More soil supply and hydroponics shops line stretches of Highway 101 than gas stations, and trucks laden with bags of soil and fertilizer kick up dust as they make deliveries on the most isolated roads.

During harvest, hardware stores put out huge bins of Fiskars pruning scissors, the preferred tool for marijuana trimmers. Safeway stocks so many turkey bags that an outsider might wonder how such small locales could consume so many birds. The sealable, smell-proof bags are used for storing and transporting weed.

"I wouldn't survive if it wasn't for growing," said Tom Ochner, 54, who runs a country store and rental cabins outside of Covelo a business called the Black Butte River Ranch. "Owners realize this is what makes their business go."

Concerned about the economics of legalization, Humboldt banker Jennifer Budwig studied the amount of pot money entering the local economy.

Using an extremely high estimate that law enforcement seized 25% of the total amount of pot grown in Humboldt, she found that the crop generated at least $1 billion a year of which $415 million was spent in the county. She said the actual figure could be several times higher.

Legalization "has the potential to be devastating," she said.

Some small growers, like Anna and Andrew, still hold out hope that they can beat back the deluge of industrial marijuana.

There's a market, they say, for sun-grown weed among discerning users who appreciate the nuances of regional variety.

A grower just down the road said he hoped to start promoting "Mendocino terroir."

"How can sun-grown not be better medicine?" Anna asked. "If you're sick, you want something that has chemicals in it? You can't grow indoor organically. Not to mention the fossil fuels it burns up."

But even if boutique weed has some potential, the couple still sense that their life in the mountains is changing for good. The next-door neighbor recently had a home-invasion robbery, and a young man down the road was shot in the face during a deal.

Andrew goes back to planting the new crop. He used to have the radio on all day something to engage his mind during the tedious work.

He doesn't anymore.

He keeps it quiet, listening for intruders.

joe.mozingo@latimes.com





Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 28, 2012 - 08:55am PT
Good one, Heyzeus, I was gonna post that back in Sept.

"There's just been this huge influx of folks who have money on their mind,
instead of love of the land. A lot more gun-toters. A lot more attack dogs."
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Reno, Nuh VAAAA duh
Dec 28, 2012 - 09:44am PT
The pot farmers took a sh#t on the last proposition to legalize marijuana in California because they were scared of competition and so they could continue shitting on the environment with no sanctions.

The inbred irresponsible hippy f*#ks growing this sh#t out on our land need to be shut down. Legalize it and shut down these incompetent hacks. Next time they try to blow smoke up your azz, don't fall for it.
locker

Social climber
state of Kumbaya...
Dec 28, 2012 - 09:46am PT



"And don't overlook the estimate that 10% of the electricity used in Cali is going towards indoor pot farms. Do we really need that?"...


It's being PAID for so what's the real big problem THERE???...

Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Dec 28, 2012 - 09:49am PT
I'd see a lot of my foothills friends stressing out, figuring out how to get a job if it happened. But, in the scheme of things, it seems that full legalization would do a solid for nature.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Dec 28, 2012 - 09:54am PT
Jebus, I know 5 growers who were all for legalizing it. Had 99 plants, and a bitch ate one. They knew what was up and they were ready to move on from their little business venture. But yeah, they said the seedier elements... not really hippies, more like aspiring meth heads... up Eureka way were opposing it.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 28, 2012 - 09:55am PT
Locker, the problem with having to build extra electrical infrastructure is
that even solar isn't the 'green dream' many think it is.
Just ask the tortoises.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Dec 28, 2012 - 09:56am PT
10% of the electricity in the state? NO WAY.

DMT
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 28, 2012 - 09:57am PT
Dingus, I knew I could rely on you to question that but even if it is 5%
that is a lot of juice.
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Reno, Nuh VAAAA duh
Dec 28, 2012 - 10:00am PT
@ Ding: Why not. Those lights suck down the electricity. That's how they spot 'em, by elevated electric bills. We're talking multiple 1000 watt bulbs, man.

I hear ya Wes, I don't doubt there's some good people out there, and probably more rapacious types than your typical hippy doing the really bad deeds, I just don't agree with using our public lands with absolutely no oversight for your source of income. It's probably easy to justify leaving the waste out there, use excess fertilizers, pesticides, re-route natural water sources, clear cut, you name it, because it is all illegal to begin with.

The enterprise as it exists now encourages the smash and grab types. Do it big and nasty for a few seasons, earn a few mill and move on.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Dec 28, 2012 - 10:03am PT
10 percent? Come on.....

DMT
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Dec 28, 2012 - 10:03am PT
The problem with solar is we are still in the mindset of relying on huge corporations to make it feasible.

If all those soon to be out of work pot growers would take some initiative and get into solar retrofitting, it would go a LONG way.

No point in shading the tortoise habitat when you could shade building, parking lots, and highways in SoCal. No huge corporation is going to be able to pull that off, it takes too much agility and adaptability. They rely on the economy of scale to generate their billion dollar profits. But a few smart people with some skillz could easily knock out some solid solar panel installations with multiple benefits.

From the class I taught last semester... CA uses ~200,000 GWh of electricity a year.

1000W bulbs x 12hrs x 1 bulb/2 plants (?) = 6,000 Wh/plant
5,000,000 plants, plus whatever locker smokes = 30,000,000,000 Wh = 30 GWh for all the indoor plants in CA

30/200,000 = 0.015%
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Reno, Nuh VAAAA duh
Dec 28, 2012 - 10:06am PT
10%. Why not?

Not that I care about that facet too much.

I guess we can take pride in buying local and sucking down our local forest lands one bowl at a time.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Dec 28, 2012 - 10:07am PT
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VGSONIC4XuE





http://www.nytimes.com/gwire/2009/07/30/30greenwire-cartels-turn-us-forests-into-marijuana-plantat-41908.html?pagewanted=all


http://www.ioangrillo.com/mexico/narco1.php



http://mmjbusinessdaily.com/2011/11/07/report-mexican-drug-cartels-infiltrating-calif-medical-pot-industry/


http://westernfarmpress.com/government/california-s-growing-marijuana-business-impacting-agriculture






Cartels not involved,, really??
That not what my cousin and buddy in the Border Patrol says..
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Reno, Nuh VAAAA duh
Dec 28, 2012 - 10:09am PT
I've driven through that country, Ron, and it's cartels of inbred hippy rednecks out there.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Dec 28, 2012 - 10:10am PT
Oh thee ARE those too.. BUT, in the area around here, it has been mexican nationals,,and those ties to Cartels are wht the gubbment did things like fast and furious to try and define. They havent been very successful.


edit: Ive know folks in N Cali, that have grown for years, retired and still growing on thier own lands, with quite clean operations.



and this from Hoobies article:

"This is the trend," Russ Arthur, a special agent for the U.S. Forest Service, said at a Santa Barbara news conference. "I've been involved in hundreds of arrests and all of the suspects have been Mexican nationals."
Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
Dec 28, 2012 - 10:10am PT
we are still in the mindset of relying on huge corporations to make it feasible.

No, we are not.

The corporations are in the mindset..... They don't want you to be energey independent, they want you to have to buy energy from mega-corporations.

These corporations are buying up (and burying) as many patents as they can that involve energy independence.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Dec 28, 2012 - 10:18am PT
So we, as a society, are just letting it happen? Nope! "We" are directly contributing to it... "we" are part of the mindset... because "we" aren't investing several thousand in personal solar energy... "we" are selling those parents... "we" are wasting energy and pretending the only cost is what our bill says. You are part of "we" whether you like it or not.
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Dec 28, 2012 - 10:18am PT
If all those soon to be out of work pot growers would take some initiative and get into solar retrofitting, it would go a LONG way.


I know a few solar installers. Some of them are growers who took the initiative to further their knowledge.

I'll be specific. I have friends who own land in the foothills and are very much oriented to living a back to the earth lifestyle. All produce is grown in their prodigious garden, and either eaten or canned.

Their grow is 99 plants, with a card. Indoors and all organic.

They vehemently oppose legalization because it will decimate their income source.

They are good people and good friends, but their cries for continued medical use and no legalization seems disingenuous to me. They are just looking out for their bank accounts.

I don't understand why there can't be a replica of our current produce system. The general populace will get commercially grown bud, a'la Budweiser. Then, the bud snobs (me) will buy their stuff from local growers, a'la farmers markets and going to a local farmer for your produce. That's how I roll for whatever produce I don't grow in my own humble garden.

It's all taxed, from the big farmers to the local farmers market.

I don't see anything wrong with this model, but then, I live in a small town in NH full of rednecks and hippies. Both demographics are full of regular smokers.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Dec 28, 2012 - 10:20am PT
Community Supported Anything
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Reno, Nuh VAAAA duh
Dec 28, 2012 - 10:21am PT
That's how I read it too, Brandon.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Dec 28, 2012 - 10:23am PT
The article in question, from LA Times:

Such raids have become commonplace in California, part of a costly, frustrating campaign to eradicate ever-bigger, more destructive marijuana farms and dismantle the shadowy groups that are creating them.

Pot cultivated on public lands surged in the last decade, a side effect of the medical cannabis boom. In 2001, several hundred thousand plants were seized in the state. By 2010, authorities pulled up a record 7.4 million plants, mostly on public land.

Law enforcement long called these grows on public land "cartel grows," and hoped to work from the busts in the forest up the drug hierarchy, maybe all the way to the Sinaloa Cartel or the Zetas.

But after years of raids and work with informants and wiretaps, agents realize the operations seemed to be run by independent groups of Mexican nationals, often using undocumented fieldworkers from their home regions.

Tommy Lanier, director of the National Marijuana Initiative, part of the Office of National Drug Control Policy, said there was scant evidence that the cartels exerted much control over marijuana growing in the national forests.

"Based on our intelligence, which includes thousands of cellphone numbers and wiretaps, we haven't been able to connect anyone to a major cartel," he said.

Lanier said authorities have long mislabeled marijuana grown on public land as "cartel grows" because Mexican nationals are arrested in the majority of cases, and the narrative of fighting drug cartels helps them secure federal funding.

He doesn't rule out that some of the cash flowing south of the border makes its way to members of those groups. He just doesn't believe they are actively directing activities up here.

"We've had undercover agents at the highest level of these groups, breaking bread and drinking tequila," says Roy Giorgi, commander of the Mountain and Valley Marijuana Investigation Team, a multi-agency organization headquartered in Sacramento. "Even at their most comfortable, the leaders never said, 'Hey, we're working for the Zetas.' "

In Giorgi's jurisdiction, the majority of the people arrested or investigated are originally from the state of Michoacan, where marijuana growing and immigration to the U.S. are entrenched.

Take it up with them, Ron.

DMT
locker

Social climber
state of Kumbaya...
Dec 28, 2012 - 10:23am PT

"Just ask the tortoises."...

I would if they weren't already floating around in my SOUP...

Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Dec 28, 2012 - 10:30am PT
I know a way to dramatically increase solar efficiency for pot growing... move the plants back outside ya morons! Lol.

With legal pot, the central valley will tromp indoor grows back to the super specialists they once were.

On a simple scale of solar economy, if legalized, pot growing will return to the out of doors from whence it came!

Unless you live in some rainy shithole hahahahahaha!

DMT
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Reno, Nuh VAAAA duh
Dec 28, 2012 - 10:31am PT
Man, reading the OP article more. If half of that's true, enjoy sucking down your unfiltered karmic retribution, brah. I guess it's easy for me, I got off the herb recently, but this is big time disgusting. Concerned pot heads need to start demanding more accountability.

Dingus wrote:

With legal pot, the central valley will tromp indoor grows back to the super specialists they once were.

Yeah buddy. The already cultivated Central Valley would become the weed basket of the world.
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Dec 28, 2012 - 10:37am PT
I sleep easy not only from the sweet medicine, but also knowing who grew it.

In the last year I've made a conscious decision to buy primarily from growers I know.

Less mold spores, better product, peace of mind knowing that my money is going into a friends hiding space, rather than Mexico or abroad.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Dec 28, 2012 - 11:07am PT
The central valley is already a failing agricultural system. No need to add to the water stress, over irrigation, and erosion by mass producing weed. Just make it like home brewing... you can grow your own and give away an ounce for Christmas... you just can't legally sell it.

Problem solved.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Dec 28, 2012 - 11:08am PT
Well there you go.

Lol.

DMT
Tobia

Social climber
Denial
Dec 29, 2012 - 08:18am PT
The Klamath Basin has been getting trashed by one means or another since the white man first laid his eyes on it.

I just finished a book, River of Renewal: Myth & History In The Klamath Basin by Stephen Most. From gold mining (which I am guilty of), overfishing, hydroelectric dams and irrigation both the wildlife and people have suffered. The book was published in 2006 and ended on a positive note with people coming together to make changes to restore the natural balance of the area.

Cannabis growers weren't mentioned in the book, probably due to the smaller number of growers and their impact on the environment being hidden with their crops.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Dec 29, 2012 - 11:13am PT
Less mold spores, better product, peace of mind knowing that my money is going into a friends hiding space, rather than Mexico or abroad.

And how do imagine that is accomplished?

Why do you think knowing the person who grows your weed means that you know HOW they grow your weed?
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Dec 29, 2012 - 11:16am PT
^ uh, cuz you help cut it from the plant, trim it up, and know they have a similar desire for quality products as you do? Same reason people prefer homegrown, vine ripened tomatoes over store bought choss shipped from Mexico.
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Dec 29, 2012 - 11:39am PT
If it were legal and regulated, each grow would be under environmental protection laws just like any other industry. It is against the law to dump these chemicals even if you are a goat farmer.

If it is regulated, and the grow sites are known, then it is pretty damn easy to construct a criminal case under local, state, and federal law. That is what my wife does for a living.

It is a simple thing to go for legalization. Just like Alcohol, which ruins more lives in a year than weed will in a lifetime.

First, our prisons are full of a small category of offenders: drugs, including weed, mental illness, which is now the defacto mental hospital of this day, and other non-violent crimes.

If you are caught with weed without a tax stamp on it, then that means it is from an illegal grow, such as Mexico, and you will get a massive fine. Enough to send you to the poor house.

If we can increase the domestic supply of Marijuana, then it will hurt the profits of the ungodly brutal Mexican Cartels.

All weed should come from a "born in the USA" card on it.

To finish this up, I was watching "Gangland" on TV the other night late and those gang members, even in prison, are lost causes for society. If any of them straighten their lives out, fine. If they get three strikes, we need to ship them to something like Devil's Island and stop wasting money paying for them.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Dec 29, 2012 - 11:42am PT
+1 Base...
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Dec 29, 2012 - 11:45am PT
Base...You are a smart man...But Moundhouse would be more appropriate than Devil's island....RJ
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Dec 29, 2012 - 11:46am PT
Ship them to Australia
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Dec 29, 2012 - 11:47am PT
John, I know how it's grown.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Dec 29, 2012 - 12:24pm PT
bite yur TONGUE RJ!

drewsky

climber
Seattle
Dec 29, 2012 - 12:33pm PT
One thing that seems to have been mentioned here but not given proper air time is that the considerable environmental damage of today is not going to magically cease if pot is legalized. In fact, if the legalization bill is something to the effect of big indoor grow-ops getting the green light, then what's to stop a Philip Morris or an RJ Reynolds (with Monsanto providing seeds) stepping in to dominate the industry? I doubt whether those companies could care less about the environment.

Growing pot indoors in CA makes no sense whatsoever given the amount of sun available; I've seen one energy equivalence estimate of 55 gallons of diesel fuel per pound grown indoors (I will admit that I can't verify the source other than to say that it was from an informational pamphlet). I suppose in a municipal grid (as opposed to giant diesel generators helicoptered into the woods) the electricity isn't all from such a filthy source, but still represents significant power usage in a place where the sun shines for free much of the year. Indoor obviously doesn't eliminate the environmental impact of water usage or chemical runoff, although it may concentrate the impact in less wild areas than do the asshats who grow on public land, be they cartel-related or other assorted criminals. Growing it sustainably and organically, outdoors, if more widely practiced, would be a great solution but it probably requires more effort and no one out for a quick buck is going to care enough to invest their time.

The industry obviously has to change and I'm pretty sure that the old guard of cottage industry growers will be disenfranchised regardless. With the market flooded it seems, unfortunately, the perfect time for large-scale state (or federal, eventually? yeesh) run operations to centralize the production and I really don't think this is a viable solution either (and many of those operations are indoor as well, which is even more wasteful). Would it be better to have everyone grow their own and dissolve the industry? I have no idea relative to the impact on power and water usage not to mention the use of fertilizer. Would there be fewer 10-ton stashes of garbage in sensitive forest and river lands? Maybe. Would it be better to have centralized production for the dispensaries and allow people to grow their own, like with ordinary produce?

I think someone said it upstream, but unfortunately (for those whose livelihoods depend on it) the only way to curtail some of the insanity in Northern CA is to remove the financial incentive somehow. I think it would probably be for the better, ultimately, but it might really screw everything up in that region. Tough call, but obviously something is going to change in the next decade, maybe sooner.

PS: I just read Base104's post a little more carefully and wholeheartedly agree, although I wish industry regulation were a little more reliable a tool and doubt that it would be a panacea in this case either.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Dec 29, 2012 - 05:09pm PT
One thing that seems to have been mentioned here but not given proper air time is that the considerable environmental damage of today is not going to magically cease if pot is legalized. In fact, if the legalization bill is something to the effect of big indoor grow-ops getting the green light, then what's to stop a Philip Morris or an RJ Reynolds (with Monsanto providing seeds) stepping in to dominate the industry? I doubt whether those companies could care less about the environment.

Oh, not true when they are regulated.

When you have a relative few larger operations, it is easy to monitor what they are doing. When you have a hundred thousand small operations located who knows where, it is nearly impossible.

When you create appropriate disincentives, you will have an impact.

For example, you wonder what would happen if confiscation of land were to happen, where environmental crimes occurred?
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Dec 29, 2012 - 05:13pm PT
It should be considerably cheaper to cultivate marijuana on land that is reasonably flat, with access to transportation, water, power, and people/employees. The main economic reason that they grow in the foothills and mountains is to reduce the likelihood/expense of being arrested, raided, or robbed, hence the acceptance of the increased variable costs. Take those risks away, and most growing will happen in flatter places - just like real regulation of automatic, semi-automatic and assault weapons, it may take a few years to be noticeable, but it will be. Even though the land may cost a bit more.
Tami

Social climber
Canada
Dec 29, 2012 - 05:39pm PT
Anders aren't you Mister Obvious :-)
Ricky D

Trad climber
Sierra Westside
Dec 29, 2012 - 06:10pm PT
Allow me to interject a little reality into this discussion on growing.

Outdoor - yes, the sun is "free" and the land is good and your weed will indeed grow big and full as Ma Nature intended. Unfortunately, what also delights in this paradise are bugs and thingies. Grow outdoors and your weed will ALWAYS be contaminated with insects, mold and fungi.

Two spotted and Black spotted mites from hell, springtails, Botrytis gray mold, Fusarium wilt, aphids, whiteflies - any number of things will absolutely infest any dense bud structure grown in the wild.

Not a big deal if your target buyers are 19 y/o frat boys - but if you are growing for true medical users with compromised immune systems - do you really want to infect them with this variety of potential pathogens?

There is a saying in the biz - "Dirt is Dirty".

Because of this is why I choose to grow indoors in a controlled environment under HID lights in a controlled Hydroponic environment.

I create and control my universe - I command the lights to shine or not, I feed with specific compounds tailored to the needs of the plant during each cycle of it's life. I give it the air it needs but only after filtering it to block spores and flying critters. I monitor and control the temperature for it's benefit. I use organic compounds such as rosemary oil and kelp extract to bolster it's immune system.

I harvest when it tells me to, trim by hand, dry in a humidity controlled room, cure in sterile glass jars and finally, have each run lab tested for the quality of it's inherent value as well as to confirm the absence of foreign materials and contaminants.

There is a difference in approaches to the creation of this product. On one hand, you can take the industrial path, on the other - you can be the whacky heirloom tomato guy at the Farmer's Market.

To equate it to the wine business - you can be a Gallo or you can be a Bien Nacido.



prickle

Gym climber
globe,az
Dec 29, 2012 - 06:14pm PT
Oh, not true when they are regulated.

When you have a relative few larger operations, it is easy to monitor what they are doing. When you have a hundred thousand small operations located who knows where, it is nearly impossible.

When you create appropriate disincentives, you will have an impact.

For example, you wonder what would happen if confiscation of land were to happen, where environmental crimes occurred?

disincentives LOL thats funny..what a fine like BP got?

If you are monsanto you just have the laws changed to your liking.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Dec 29, 2012 - 06:16pm PT
Sounds reasonable RickyD... but the wild grown schwag we had in Jamaica was pretty damn ire... maybe it was the all the bugs and mold?
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Dec 29, 2012 - 06:18pm PT
^^MH is entirely correct^^

The whole point of legalization should be to eliminate the massive amounts of money going to Mexico. That country is now bought and sold by drug cartels who cut off heads more often than Sarah Palin looks in a mirror.

Truly evil people.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Dec 29, 2012 - 06:20pm PT
In the wine business? They grow grapes outside. I'm just sayin...

DMT
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Dec 29, 2012 - 06:20pm PT
That is why our tax dollars do down the drain with daily HS flight of helos these days. Always good to seem them circling while you on a route- looking at the guy in the door with the mounted 30 cal looking at you..
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Dec 29, 2012 - 06:24pm PT
The Mexicans are still smuggling thousands of tons of weed into this country. Are they now growing the super quality stuff like the local growers are?

I looked into growing weed in Colorado once. There are so many weed outlets that the profit isn't that great. So I would say that Colorado grown weed is mainly home grown. It should be.

NORML has all of the weed laws by state on their website. Interesting reading. The biggie is when you go over 100 plants. Automatic long prison term.

For horticulture? You gotta be kidding me. If they have no violent record and plenty of good character witnesses, they should pay a fine and go on. Save prison cells for bad guys.

---An interesting point here is the lobby efforts of the private prison industry. All they want is filled cells. That is how they make money, and being corporations, have no conscience.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Dec 29, 2012 - 06:37pm PT
9/10 inmates I worked with in SoCal, all black or hispanic, were in prison for weed.
Ricky D

Trad climber
Sierra Westside
Dec 29, 2012 - 06:42pm PT
FU Dingus - and yes, I mean that in a good way.

My shitty little wine analogy was to compare tasteless industrially produced crap with carefully constructed works or heartfelt art.

Yes MoFo - grapes are grown outside. And yes, grapes do benefit from the presence of mold and fungi.

However, grapes are not given to cancer patients to keep them from puking their guts out every time they try to eat.

My stuff is - I support a Leukemia patient and a Stomach Cancer patient among my small group of members.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Dec 29, 2012 - 07:10pm PT
Cheers RickyD

DMT
Ricky D

Trad climber
Sierra Westside
Dec 29, 2012 - 07:12pm PT
Smoke on DMT!

Love your bear poop stories - you are like the Huell Howser of the Central Valley - only not gay and not on PBS and man I mean this in a damn good way!
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 1, 2013 - 08:47am PT
Now it appears they are killing off the threatened Fisher. 83% of the Fishers
in this study tested positive for the anti-coagulants found in the rodent
poisons the pot growers are using.

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

Sierra pot-growing sites may be lethal for rare forest animal

Pesticides and poisons commonly used by illegal marijuana growers in the Sierra Nevada are found in dead fishers, a study says.


By Bettina Boxall, Los Angeles Times
June 30, 2013, 11:58 p.m.



The illegal marijuana-growing operations that have proliferated in remote areas of the Sierra Nevada appear to be taking a toll on the fisher, a forest animal whose numbers are dangerously low.


Researchers studying fishers in the Sierra National Forest in the southern Sierra found that mortality rates were significantly higher for females living in areas with a number of marijuana-growing sites.

Liberal amounts of pesticides and anticoagulant rodent poison are commonly used at the operations, tainting small prey the fisher eats.

Although consuming contaminated prey may not kill the fishers outright, it could make them more susceptible to disease and parasites.

"Exposure may predispose an animal to dying from other causes," wrote the authors, who summarized their findings in a paper published this week in the journal Conservation Letters.

Their research was a follow-up to an earlier study that found that tissue of 85% of 46 dead fishers contained traces of anticoagulants. Most of those animals had been killed by predators.

The fisher is a cat-size animal that is a candidate for listing under the federal Endangered Species Act. For the latest study, the scientists trapped fishers, outfitted them with radio collars and released them. The team then compared the animals' movements with the location of marijuana-growing sites found by national forest law enforcement officers.

The final analysis excluded male fishers because their extensive movements made it harder to gauge exposure to the marijuana plots.

Noting that some of the pesticide compounds used at the sites were first developed as nerve agents during World War II, the researchers likened the pot operations to leaking chemical weapons stockpiles.

The association between growing operations and fisher mortality is "strong yet speculative," wrote the authors, who noted it was difficult to determine a specific cause-and-effect relationship.

But they said the contamination raised serious conservation concerns.

"By increasing the number of animals that die from supposedly natural causes, these pesticides may be tipping the balance of recovery for fishers," warned Craig Thompson, the study's lead author and a U.S. Forest Service wildlife ecologist at the Pacific Southwest Research Station.

bettina.boxall@latimes.com

Pot Growers Killing Fishers





It is time to send in the National Guard.
Or better yet use the special ops guys returning from Afghanistan.
Tami

Social climber
Canada
Jul 1, 2013 - 08:50am PT
Better still, fully legalize it & get it out of the mountains.
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Jul 1, 2013 - 09:35am PT
Yup. Legalize it.

It's a no brainier for most of us, but enforcement budgets are at stake, so it remains illegal.

The prohibition is purely political, and it is wrong.

I can only begin to imagine how much money legalization would save the taxpayers, but it would be dramatic.

Freaking LEO's and their political weight are hurting everyone.

Many of my friends will suffer, but it's for the greater good.
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Peavine Basecamp
Jul 1, 2013 - 09:38am PT
Legalize it, don't criticize it.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 1, 2013 - 09:42am PT
So, pontificators, during the years it takes to get legalized we should just sit back and engage in hand-wringing while those phuktards destroy the environment? (not to mention make it extremely dangerous go into vast areas of NorCal)
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Peavine Basecamp
Jul 1, 2013 - 09:46am PT
I don't think the DEA is wringing its hands.

So, if I'm pro legalization I'm anti-environment? Damn!

I don't even smoke the sticky icky anymore.

Yeah, I don't like the environmental impact either. How correlated are all these impacts to pot farmers though?

I'm completely pro-legalization for recreational, or any other use you think you have for the bud.

Saliva tests for DUI checks.

Who knows if some wouldn't pull a moonshiner culture on this bitch though and grow the tax free kind? I'd turn in that f*#ker in an instant if it were legalized.
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Jul 1, 2013 - 09:46am PT
Obviously, we should enforce it while it's illegal.

We should simply change it's legal status.

Is it possible to put a federal proposition on the ballots? (This may be a dumb question, I'm not very educated about federal law)
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Jul 1, 2013 - 11:37am PT
"Is it possible to put a federal proposition on the ballots?"

Not nationwide.

Once the government gets its hands on something, and f*#ks it up, the best we can do to fix it is elect the right people.

Right now, the Feds are doing things The Democrat Way. We can keep doing it the Democrat Way, or we can elect Republicans ( like The Republican Way would be any better ).

But that's it for our options once we allow The Government to get control of something. We're locked in.

Moral of the story? Be damn careful when you allow the government in, because once in it ain't leaving.
Crazy Bat

Sport climber
Birmingham, AL & Seweanee, TN
Jul 1, 2013 - 07:32pm PT
TWP and Ken M, I am involved with a group her in the east the does clean ups using a modification of a rescue haul system. The modification is that instead of a 3:1 ir 4:1 we use a Ford F 150 or what ever is available. Needing a road nearby is a limitation. Would that work for any of the sites that need work out there?
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Jul 1, 2013 - 07:34pm PT
That Fisher study sounds like a lotta bullshit to me.

DMT
Crazy Bat

Sport climber
Birmingham, AL & Seweanee, TN
Jul 1, 2013 - 08:26pm PT
Why Dingus. You cant argue with facts. 36 out of 46 animals that wew found dead had rodentside in their system. That is alarming and indicates to me that it could have some impact on teir ability to survive. Neurptoxins slow reaction times in most animals and hemoragic toxins can cause anemia that can lead to weakness and therfore slowed reaction times. Bad things when trying to avoid other predators.

Both have negative implications for fertility.

I can also see eliminating males that travel a much larger range than females who have to stay in a limited area at least durring denning.
Dr.Sprock

Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
Jul 1, 2013 - 09:21pm PT
it is legal, up here in the great white north, where you guys been?

you mean the feds?

screw those fag eaters,

couchmaster

climber
pdx
Jul 1, 2013 - 09:49pm PT
This legalization trend is going to start cutting into the CIA's black budget funded by their drug importation business. LOL. Maybe they'll have to turn to kidnapping or worse in their new enterprises?
mountainlion

Trad climber
California
Jul 2, 2013 - 12:10am PT
Legalize it don't critizize it LEGALIZE IT YEAH YEAH don't advertize it
burntheman

Trad climber
slt
Jul 2, 2013 - 12:24am PT
i feel bad for all the people who preach how natural pot is. so many 'nutrients' poured into those plants whether indoor or out.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Jul 2, 2013 - 07:17am PT
The average American lawn is deluged with chemicals, as well. The average American farmer dumps tons of chemicals on her crops, every year. And the whole world hates rats. Maybe this study is solid at isolating Fishers near pot farms from Fishers near mountain cabins, or horse packing camps, or ranger stations, or homesteads. Dunno.

Anyway, there's a lot of chemicals being released into the environment that aren't stamped 'pot farm.' Not to excuse pot farmers mind you.

DMT
Crazy Bat

Sport climber
Birmingham, AL & Seweanee, TN
Jul 2, 2013 - 08:53pm PT
Good point Dingus. I couldnt find info on where the animals were collected. Just a statement that the focused on animals found near known grows. The other sites you mention make one think.
mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Jul 2, 2013 - 10:33pm PT
Growing pot indoors in CA makes no sense whatsoever given the amount of sun available.

That's great if the DA in your neighborhood doesn't care. Ours does. Fresno's does.

The DA here told a grower friend straight up, if you grow indoors we have no beef, it's your home and we have far more to do than kicking in YOUR door.

The primary concern here is that pot-stealing is easier if the grow is outdoors and this leads to gunplay.

http://www.utsandiego.com/news/2011/may/16/fresno-man-sentenced-in-fatal-pot-garden-shooting/
cuvvy

Sport climber
arkansas
Jul 3, 2013 - 11:27am PT
Too bad people can't live without their drugs. Life is beautiful without blurring reality.
A lot of unhappy people out there, so I guess it is understandable though.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Jul 3, 2013 - 12:30pm PT
Too bad people can't get by without their corn. Taken in moderation its digestable but when abused its effects are demonstratably deadly. Look at Amercia's Belly and you will see corn abuse out strips pot abuse by a very w-i-d-e margin. And its far more deadly. But people are unhappy and its sweet tooth tasty so very understandable addiction.

DMT
FRUMY

Trad climber
SHERMAN OAKS,CA
Jul 3, 2013 - 01:33pm PT
I find it funny, that op complains about pot grows - then shows what look like house hold waste.

The same stuff I see dump all over the country. Someones left behinds, their house hold junk.

Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 3, 2013 - 02:21pm PT
Frumy, that 'household' waste is indeed 'household' waste - from the pot growers
'households' in our national forests.
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Jul 3, 2013 - 02:28pm PT
Pesticides and poisons commonly used by illegal marijuana growers in the Sierra Nevada are found in dead fishers, a study says.

last time i purchased dope from the candy store the ash was grey, so they were not using chemicals!!!

also, the dope i grow is organic bro!

splitter

Trad climber
SoCal Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
Jul 3, 2013 - 02:30pm PT
well, what it all boils down to...
DataMind

Social climber
Jul 3, 2013 - 02:52pm PT
FRUMY

Trad climber
SHERMAN OAKS,CA
Jul 3, 2013 - 05:58pm PT
So the pot growers had a teddy bear.
mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Aug 14, 2013 - 08:14am PT
Yesterday's newspaper, Reilly.

Credit: mouse from merced
Credit: mouse from merced
dirtbag

climber
Aug 14, 2013 - 09:48am PT
Legalize it and these kinds of problems would disappear.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 14, 2013 - 10:04am PT
db, you mean the Mexican Mafia would just pack up and disappear or they
would go legal? I strongly doubt that they would do either when their
business model is predicated upon free land, free labor, and no taxes.
And during the many years before legalization occurs should we just stand
by and let them rape our forests and wildlife? Not to mention make it
very dangerous to go near 'their' plantations. And I lump the white trash
pot growers who are doing the same thing in with the Mexican Mafia.
dirtbag

climber
Aug 14, 2013 - 10:11am PT
Why would anyone buy from the Mexican mafia when they could obtain it more easily legally? If no one is buying it from them, the mafia will mostly go away. You'll always have some degree of criminal element involved somewhere, but it would become much rarer.

And btw, many pot buyers--unless they are certain where the pot they are purchasing is grown, or grow it themselves-- are complicit in creating this mess.

Edit: and Reilly I am the LAST person who would give those fookers a
Pass. I've worked with Leo who have to tiptoe into those areas to arrest the perps and clean up the messes. Nail their asses!!!
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Aug 14, 2013 - 04:55pm PT
Maybe the Mafia will be the easiest way to score. Maybe they'll home deliver when weed's legal. They deliver today. Maybe they'll let you skate on the tax, and pass the savings along to the customer, just like they do today. Maybe they'll not worry about checking ID, like they do today.

The black market is all about customer satisfaction, and they won't all of a sudden just go find honest work if what they do is legal, because they're in the business of finding a way around regulations. Just like they do today.
dirtbag

climber
Aug 14, 2013 - 05:13pm PT
Maybe the Mafia will be the easiest way to score.

Easier than buying it in a shop? Or growing it at home? I think most users would love to obtain it in a way that wouldn't land them in the can.

Maybe they'll home deliver when weed's legal. They deliver today. .

I really doubt having home delivery would be a major selling point.

Maybe they'll let you skate on the tax, and pass the savings along to the customer, just like they do today.

What savings? Pot ain't cheap-or legal. Legalize it and the price should come down.

I have no idea what savings you are talking about.

Maybe they'll not worry about checking ID, like they do today.

Yep, underage kids would continue to buy pot.

And yep, there would continue to be a black market, though I'd argue, it would be greatly diminished. Alcohol used to be illegal, and while there is still a black market for liquor, illegal sales were dramatically reduced when prohibition ended.

But what do you propose doing about it? Right now, keeping it illegal isn't working very well.
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Social climber
SLO, Ca
Aug 14, 2013 - 05:15pm PT
Do Mexican cartels have anything to do with with pot grown in Northern California? Seems unlikely on any real scale. In any case there is no mafia run black market for alcohol after prohibition ended so I don't see why pot would be any different. It's a freaking plant.


I don't smoke pot and wouldn't even if it were legal so I don't care that much, but having it be illegal seems profoundly stupid to me.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Aug 14, 2013 - 05:17pm PT
"What savings? Pot ain't cheap-or legal. Legalize it and the price should come down."


Have you checked the prices of "legal" weed, in places where it's legal? $5,000/lb isn't uncommon. A "dime bag" is only ONE gram! That's at least twice the black market rate.
mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Aug 14, 2013 - 05:19pm PT
Chaz is right. The last thing La Eme and the rest of those f*#ks want is legalization. There is always far more money to be made selling proscribed goods or services, and that will always be the case, but this is just my own opinion.
La Eme founders.
La Eme founders.
Credit: La Google

Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Aug 14, 2013 - 05:23pm PT
Gambling's legal. I've already been contacted by Mafia reps wanting to know if I was interested in playing the football cards again this year.

Why would the Mafia bother with gambling, and all its associated risks, when you can just walk into any casino and gamble legally to your heart's content?

Answer: The Mafia delivers a service in a way the casinos can't, because the Mafia makes its own rules.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 14, 2013 - 05:25pm PT
Besides, you can rest assured the guvmint will totally screw up the legalization to the benefit of everybody but the people.
dirtbag

climber
Aug 14, 2013 - 05:36pm PT
Chaz, we're not talking about a cure-all. We're talking about greatly reducing the problem. One of the reasons medicinal pot is so expensive now is that great efforts are made to keep its use regulated, i.e., greatly restricted. Those efforts would be greatly reduced.

Alcohol is cheap--and legal.

And you still haven't said what you would do about it.

And really Reilly? The government would inevitably f*#k it up. Lame. Government is f*#king it up now!

What would you do?

You can't put a LEO behind every tree.

FRUMY

Trad climber
Bishop,CA
Aug 14, 2013 - 05:39pm PT
$ 5000 a lb. hahahahahahahaha.

You must have just fallen off the turnip truck.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 14, 2013 - 05:53pm PT
You can't put a LEO behind every tree.

No, but we have a lot of really good snipers who are out of work and the
NorCal forests would be good hunting for them.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Aug 14, 2013 - 09:06pm PT
Dirtbag writes:

"Chaz, we're not talking about a cure-all"




I have absolutely no problem with legalizing any substance one wishes to eat, drink, smoke, snort, slam, carry on his person, etc. It should be done in the spirit of promoting Liberty, even if legalization presents even more problems for the government. ( the government was set up to PROMOTE Liberty, not hinder it )
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Aug 14, 2013 - 09:11pm PT
"$ 5000 a lb. hahahahahahahaha."



Divide grams into a pound, then multiply by ten dollars ( which is the going rate for *legal but regulated* dope ), and tell me they're not getting $5,000 for one pound of vegetable produce.

Legalization has been proven to drive up the price of this particular commodity.
tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Aug 14, 2013 - 09:48pm PT
Here in BC the government said that it would approve permits for 500 home grow op electrical meter installations to allow for greater draw according to my patient who does the paperwork for the power company in the province.


So people applied and the government started approving them.


She said she had now filed 30,000 of them. In a year.



Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Aug 14, 2013 - 09:59pm PT
Any other business, if someone uses more, and pays for more product, it's considered to be a GOOD thing. Why the f*#k is electricity any different?

Answer: Government interference.

Less government = more Liberty.
dirtbag

climber
Aug 14, 2013 - 10:26pm PT

I have absolutely no problem with legalizing any substance one wishes to eat, drink, smoke, snort, slam, carry on his person, etc. It should be done in the spirit of promoting Liberty, even if legalization presents even more problems for the government.



Hey Chaz...























































I agree with that too!

But since this thread is about why pot farms in national forests suck big time, I did not address the liberty aspect.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Aug 14, 2013 - 10:32pm PT
The whole reason the Mexican cartels are growing on government lands is because the government decided to seize the property of anyone caught growing pot.

So it was a total no-brainer that folks would start growing on government lands, which are immune to seizure. The fact that the government couldn't see it coming tells you all you need to know about government competence.

You didn't have to be Nostradumas to see that coming.
tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Aug 14, 2013 - 11:28pm PT
Chaz, it is a good thing here too. Everyone makes a little extra cash, power company makes more, and it is all done without mexicans and guns. Maybe California should try it!

Except now that everyone and their neighbor grows since it was essentially legalized - nobody is buying. Price dropped.
johntp

Trad climber
socal
Nov 3, 2013 - 01:47pm PT
http://www.nbcbayarea.com/investi....91.html
Ricky D

Trad climber
Sierra Westside
Nov 3, 2013 - 03:45pm PT
No one is paying 5K for wholesale weed in California.

Wholesale Grower rates currently run -

Top Shelf Hydro around 3500 if you have a sucker- mostly 2500 to 3K hard.
New Crop Outdoor runs in the low to mid 2000's.
Cartel forest weed fetches around 13-1500 an elbow.

Remember that when LEO's weigh weed - they include sticks, stems,leaves, and rootball. Then they refer to a High Times Rate Card from ten years ago for their pricing.


johntp

Trad climber
socal
Nov 3, 2013 - 04:31pm PT
I haven't smoked pot in 30 years (well, there was that one time a couple of years ago).

Frickin gooberment won't let users grow their own. Stupid logic. All this shee would be gone if it was legalized for personal use.
manemachen

Sport climber
Pinedale, Wyoming
Nov 3, 2013 - 04:55pm PT
HUMBLE HUMBOLDT COUNTY-In the past, we've had rainbows here in Wyoming for a month long-pain-in-the-ass visit. The Rainbows claim that they live "light on the land"- that is what they say on their website, but the reality is that they have no f*#king clue- After one week, a spin off of the major Rainbow Coalition (20 people or less) left enough garbage to fill three long bed pick-ups to overflowing. When they all got together south of here, they dug holes and even the Oregon Trail ruts that 100,000 people crossing this area left during a ten year period were nothing to the damage left by those groovy, pot smoking, sex orgy addicted morons. I'd bet most of those folks come from Humboldt. And Chaz, remember when the government took over the Mustang Ranch and started operating it- they couldn't stay above water selling liquor and sex. How hard could that have been?
patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Nov 3, 2013 - 07:29pm PT
to be fair, nothing wrong with pot smoking and/or sex orgies.. or so i've heard
manemachen

Sport climber
Pinedale, Wyoming
Nov 4, 2013 - 09:13am PT
unless you don't bathe..
thirsty

climber
Nov 4, 2013 - 09:35am PT
Legalization would allow for product provenance documentation and create a market for sustainable fair trade production to compete with big business but legal production while reducing the availability of illegally produced / smuggled product that has avoided basic regulation and taxation in the convenient, legal retail market. People buy all kinds of things that are produced inappropriately, but the market for those products can be minimized through a combination of consumer conscience, basic source tracking by retailers and minimal regulation, paid for in part, by taxing the product. In addition, when home production for personal use is OKed, as it should be, the market competition for responsibly produced, high quality products increases.
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Nov 4, 2013 - 09:43am PT
groovy, pot smoking, sex orgy addicted morons

f*#king hippies.

did you actually witness any moronic, groovy, pot smoking sex orgies? or are you parroting the local faux news grapevine rumor factory.

sounds like stereotypical rednecked shitkickers stereotyping groovy, pot smoking, sex orgy addicted morons.

These guys are pretty groovy.

HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!
HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!
Credit: RiiiiGHT, Got IT. Nice
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Nov 4, 2013 - 09:46am PT
they should be machine gunned..^^^^^creepy lil fekks anyhoo!
squishy

Mountain climber
Nov 4, 2013 - 09:52am PT
they should be machine gunned..^^^^^creepy lil fekks anyhoo!

I bet that's what that dude thought about the TSA...you gun freaks are giving us normal people a bad name with sh#t like this..
manemachen

Sport climber
Pinedale, Wyoming
Nov 4, 2013 - 01:51pm PT
nope, really, I didn't cash in on any unwashed people orgies of any kind. AND, you're right, we are a bunch of sh#t kickers.. where did I put that Merle Haggard 8 track? we could plug it in when we go over to clean up after all those well intended folks..you did make me laugh!
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
U.N. Ambassador, Crackistan
Nov 4, 2013 - 02:09pm PT
nope, really, I didn't cash in on any unwashed people orgies of any kind.

Ah the voice of experience.

DMT
manemachen

Sport climber
Pinedale, Wyoming
Nov 4, 2013 - 10:59pm PT
Dingus- I was talking TRASH..not trash-you know, based on the photo...so any sh#t kickers in Crackistan? BTW you crack me up..
Dr.Sprock

Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
Nov 4, 2013 - 11:42pm PT
KHUM is a cool station, adds for grow lights, hydro, save the pets and no domestic violence, etc etc,


http://khum.com/khumstream/
tioga

Mountain climber
pac northwest
Nov 5, 2013 - 11:18am PT
Legalization would allow for product provenance documentation and create a market for sustainable fair trade production to compete with big business but legal production while reducing the availability of illegally produced / smuggled product that has avoided basic regulation and taxation in the convenient, legal retail market. People buy all kinds of things that are produced inappropriately, but the market for those products can be minimized through a combination of consumer conscience, basic source tracking by retailers and minimal regulation, paid for in part, by taxing the product. In addition, when home production for personal use is OKed, as it should be, the market competition for responsibly produced, high quality products increases.

That's all good and right...only Cartels don't agree with this (driving the prices down) and US government happens to be sharing.
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Nov 5, 2013 - 11:41am PT

Remember that when LEO's weigh weed - they include sticks, stems,leaves, and rootball. Then they refer to a High Times Rate Card from ten years ago for their pricing.

lol!

dude I love opening up my weed room!

I love talking to my plants!

Credit: pyro

guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Nov 5, 2013 - 03:43pm PT
Pyro.... good to see the new room addition you have been planning is now starting to pay off.
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