Does the NRA have a stupid pill problem?

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jghedge

climber
Dec 27, 2012 - 05:06pm PT
"Again, the issue isn't whether removing guns from civilian hands would decrease gun crime. That's a truism. The issue is whether outlawing guns would actually reduce guns in civilian hands, and in particular, in criminal hands. I think it's possible, but hardly a given."

Agreed. No one really knew what the effects of the 13th amendment would be, either.

Seems to have actually worked, though - unless you know of any currently functioning slave plantations on US soil.
jghedge

climber
Dec 27, 2012 - 05:11pm PT
"Wow, somebody just deleted a lot of posts."

Probably someone promoting the "arsenal as protection against gov't" line, who actually thought it through

A rare commodity among gun nuts

Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Dec 27, 2012 - 05:42pm PT
Hedge you keep trying to make an equivalency between slavery and gun ownership. That is hogwash.

You have made the point, often made, that our founders had among them slave owners. You understand of course, that the eventual abolition of slavery was set in motion by these same men.

The often misunderstood 1790 census counted slaves as 3/5 of a man. At face value this seems wrong, but the reason it was done was to insure that the first House of Representatives had a northern state majority. This was vital if slavery were to go, and they knew it.

It was written into the Constitution that the slave trade was protected for 20 years, meaning that so long as the northern states could hold their majority the importing of slaves would end in 1808, which it did. The stage was set for seccesion and we all have a rough idea what happenned.

Then of course there are the absolutely clear words of the Declaration of Independance.

I believe the founders wanted to liberate the country of slavery, and being practical men made the best deals they could to set this process in motion while building and preserving the union.

So at the same time that they were sowing the seeds to end slavery, they were very clear that there is a right to keep and bear arms. They did not say "for 20 years."

You focus on the preamble statement to spin the words to suit your argument. But a preamble is just that, and the statement which follows is crystal clear: "the right of the people...shall not be infringed." It does not say "The right of the Government to issue arms to the people for a cause..." Now what do you think is the reference in the preamble to "a free state?" The federal government? Not a chance.

The other thing you keep going off on is this fantasy about armed conflict between gun owners and an oppressive government. The best way to bring this about is to have an oppressive government which decides to disarm it's citizens. If you think the government will do that out of benevolence you are naive.

You are correct that a direct conflict between a group of citizens with small arms and an attack helicopter is not going to go well for the citizens. What you are missing here is the concept of liberty - that if the government can be held through the political process to respect the right to keep and bear arms this conflict need never occur.

Norton is interesting, a liberal who has a CCW. Most of what he proposes as sensible regulation I agree with 100%. My brother earned his CCW in Boston Mass. It was a real challenge for him, as I think it should be.
kennyt

climber
Woodfords,California
Dec 27, 2012 - 06:41pm PT

Not gonna sell mine, but I have a complete set of spare parts and 50 hi-caps,.......

Everyone has their price.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 27, 2012 - 06:44pm PT
Reserve price $200K


But I'll throw in a case of ammo which, these days, might be worth more.
kennyt

climber
Woodfords,California
Dec 27, 2012 - 06:49pm PT
just another sellout. I'm Dissapointed you said you wouldn't sell yours.

EDIT: You should get into politics.
jghedge

climber
Dec 27, 2012 - 06:59pm PT
Watching "Lincoln" at home right now (I get screeners)

Couldn't be more relevant to the topic of this thread - the passage of an amendment correcting a mistake made by the Founders

Unfortunately Lincoln didn't have Apache helicopters

Fortunately Obama does
kennyt

climber
Woodfords,California
Dec 27, 2012 - 07:01pm PT
But aren't the nutters gonna make a stand?
jghedge

climber
Dec 27, 2012 - 07:05pm PT
"But aren't the nutters gonna make a stand?"

The whole 'Death From Above" thing will make that stand pretty short

Hahahahahaha

For as much as they idolize the military, you'd think they'd understand what it's actually for

Just another testament to the Power of Cognitive Dissonance

monolith

climber
albany,ca
Dec 27, 2012 - 07:06pm PT
Toker wouldn't fire off his wealth anyway.
Dr. F.

Ice climber
SoCal
Dec 27, 2012 - 07:14pm PT
Credit: Dr. F.
The NRA has a problem of being stupid
the more stupid, the more guns sold, the more money
jghedge

climber
Dec 27, 2012 - 07:20pm PT
"You focus on the preamble statement to spin the words to suit your argument. But a preamble is just that, and the statement which follows is crystal clear: "the right of the people...shall not be infringed." It does not say "The right of the Government to issue arms to the people for a cause..." Now what do you think is the reference in the preamble to "a free state?" The federal government? Not a chance."

Nowhere in your rant, though, do you dare quote the actual words you're referring to.

Gee I wonder why.

Nor is a statement included in the same sentence a "preamble" to that sentence - it is the sentence.

Why try to pretend it's not? To suit your argument?
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Dec 27, 2012 - 07:28pm PT
So just to be clear, you advocate:

A tyrannical government which would disarm people by force including lethal force from a distance. And you think that "what the military is for" is to enforce on American citizens your idea of what is right despite law and tradition.

Unfortunately Lincoln didn't have Apache helicopters

Fortunately Obama does

You are nuts, Hedge. The President does not have that power.
jghedge

climber
Dec 27, 2012 - 07:32pm PT
"You are nuts, Hedge. The President does not have that power."

Hahahaha

The movie I'm currently watching begs to differ

"And you think that "what the military is for" is to enforce on American citizens your idea of what is right despite law and tradition."


My idea?

I'm literally quoting the constitution

You're avoiding quoting it - you don't even dare to post the words - you know they prove you wrong.
jghedge

climber
Dec 27, 2012 - 07:49pm PT
"Absolutely, the Federal government has the authority to order any kind of military it has to directly attack private citizen insurrections that it deems either breaking federal or state law or a threat to this country's national security, and that included US citizens."

Had the federal gov't not had this constitutional power, the US would have dissolved long ago, obviously

History not being a strong suit in the wingnut repertoire, perhaps it's time for that lesson to be taught again.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Dec 27, 2012 - 08:01pm PT
The fed never did order the states to form their militias.

They preexisted the confederation, (which came before the fed and the Constitution) which was powerless to do anything but beg the states for resources. The response was usually less than enthusiastic.

The militias of the era were purely local. The arsenal at Concord, the intended capture of which sparked the revolution, was the township of Concord's. The militia that slaughtered the retreating lobsterbacks also completely indigenous.

State involvement was purely in providing funds for arms and supplies and higher level officers that got their positions as political patronage and were mostly honorary. Any organized state involvement doesn't really start untill Breed's Hill. (AKA Bunker Hill, but the battle really happened on Breed's hill) Even then it was almost exclusively in funding artillery and uniforms. All the fighting units were organized at the village and township level and folded into Washington's army as cohesive units. State leadership / leaders were only accepted when effective and that was fairly rare.



Gary

Social climber
Right outside of Delacroix
Dec 27, 2012 - 08:04pm PT
The NRA will wholeheartedly back any coup of the government as it is now constituted. That's the funny part.

TGT:
The militias of the era were purely local. The arsenal at Concord, the intended capture of which sparked the revolution, was the township of Concord's. The militia that slaughtered the retreating lobsterbacks also completely indigenous.

Good thing we didn't listen to the conservatives in 1776, isn't it?
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Dec 27, 2012 - 08:11pm PT
They were all students of what would now be considered "conservatives" Locke, Burke, etc.

Classical liberals all.

What masquerades as "liberal" now are the Neojacobin and Marxist

"Progressives"

Nothing clasicaly liberal about them.

All proponents of the will of the state and the collective at the expense of individual liberty and property rights.


They are the antithesis of the intent of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights.
jghedge

climber
Dec 27, 2012 - 08:17pm PT
"The NRA will wholeheartedly back any coup of the government as it is now constituted. That's the funny part."

At least until it comes time to actually start shooting at the United States Army, anyway

Methinks those arsenals might not prove as effective as they have against first graders and teachers
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 27, 2012 - 08:21pm PT
just another sellout. I'm Dissapointed you said you wouldn't sell yours.

EDIT: You should get into politics.
Silly kennyt.

I'm not a sellout if I can get twenty for the money you give me for one. I'm an astute businessman.
(But then if there weren't guys like you then who would the smart people hire to do the shlt jobs?)
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