Does the NRA have a stupid pill problem?

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TwistedCrank

climber
Dingleberry Gulch, Ideeho
Topic Author's Original Post - Dec 21, 2012 - 01:01pm PT
Just askin.



Yeah, I want my kids going to school where they got armed guards marching patrol around the perimeter. You might as well send them to prison.



Stupid fukks, the NRA.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Dec 21, 2012 - 01:06pm PT
Indeed....

I find it strange that neither side the the "gun issue" is willing to look into direct causation of psychotropic meds in these cases.

All just have a vague "mental health" mention. Whatever the Hell that means.

None of these recent killers were insane raging psychotics before.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 21, 2012 - 01:06pm PT

We all need to sit down and have a discussion of the role of the press in our society. Does it keep us safer? Or does it encourage more attacks putting more children in danger?
It is time to forget the politics of a free-press and instead think of the larger questions like the safety of our children.

We’re not talking about taking away the BullStreamMedia First Amendment rights; we’re only talking about cutting the carnage brought about by Assault Journalism.

Does the BSM really need high-capacity magazines?

Does the BSM really need 5 minute clips?

The 1st amendment guarantees the freedom of the press but that isn’t an unlimited right by any means. The 1st amendment was written back in a time of printed media that traveled at the speed of a horse.

There is no way the founding fathers could have known how media technology would evolve.

These days the BSM can operate at the speed of light, with video cameras shooting at least 30 frames a second. They could not have envisioned high-capacity magazines that can shoot out reams of lies before they need to be reloaded with the next issue.

They could not have envisioned the private sale of Media outside the control of the government, private Media that could easily set off the next lunatic on a spree of carnage.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Dec 21, 2012 - 01:09pm PT
Don't know about the NRA but I am positive the NBA has an unlimited supply.
Dr. F.

Ice climber
SoCal
Dec 21, 2012 - 01:13pm PT
Can't the gunman just shoot the armed policeman while he's eating donuts
He's gunna shoot everyone anyway, just shoot the policeman first, and then move on to the kids


Sorry, but that is No solution
Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
Dec 21, 2012 - 01:14pm PT
I find it strange that neither side the the "gun issue" is willing to look into direct causation of psychotropic meds in these cases.

That's because there is no cause and effect. You've got your cause & effect mixed up. It's the underlying mental illness that is the cause, not the drugs used to treat people who are mentally ill.


locker

Social climber
state of Kumbaya...
Dec 21, 2012 - 01:16pm PT

"None of these recent killers were insane raging psychotics before"...



Mental illness can manifest later in ones life...

Schizophrenia for one might not appear until one is in their 20's (or later)...

So your thinking is a bit FAULTY...

http://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/publications/schizophrenia/when-does-schizophrenia-start-and-who-gets-it.shtml



Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Dec 21, 2012 - 01:21pm PT
It's the underlying mental illness that is the cause,



agreed.


Now, just replace "mental illness" with "culture" and we'll really be getting somewhere.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Dec 21, 2012 - 01:26pm PT
Shiver.....with NRA pronouncements I feel the breath of evil incarnate.
moosedrool

Trad climber
lost, far away from Poland
Dec 21, 2012 - 01:35pm PT
+1 donini
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Dec 21, 2012 - 01:35pm PT
They must have gotten their Stupid Pills from Barbara Boxer.

Only Boxer's hooked on the full-strength ones! Boxer thinks the National Guard needs to be deployed to schools.

http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/la-pn-sen-boxer-national-guard-schools-20121219,0,7530900.story





Dr. F.

Ice climber
SoCal
Dec 21, 2012 - 01:44pm PT
Pure hysteria

I have no idea why LaPierre blames Obama, what did Obama do to make things better or worse?

Nothing, except make good speaches after the fact
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Dec 21, 2012 - 01:51pm PT
Building a bomb isn't a knee jerk reaction. It would take some effort and time.

Grabbing a gun and going postal is the definition of knee jerk reaction.

How about regulating more strongly, or banning, large capacity clips for semi auto weapons?
jstan

climber
Dec 21, 2012 - 01:53pm PT
We all need to sit down and have a discussion of the role of the press in our society. Does it keep us safer?

Definitely. And yes they are keeping us safer. If the press were not there we would probably be quicker to sweep this all under the rug and to do nothing. I know this gives a problem to those who believe a closet full of bushmasters will allow them to overthrow the government or beat back a party of Seals attacking their home. But let's face it. When you balance doing nothing to prevent the slaughter of six year olds in their school, versus the pleasure of having a deluded belief

the choice is pretty simple.

And yes we hope very fervently this will not stop with outlawing civil purchase of additional combat weapons and outlawing civil ownership of large magazines.

The weapons are not even the major question that will come up. Not even. We will have to consider the tradeoffs involved in the Federal government monitoring internet searches, all internet searches, to try and discover who might be getting the information they need to prepare for a slaughter.

That will be a real question. I wish I could say I thought a complete ban on any possession of combat weapons would relieve us of the need for such monitoring. But I doubt it.

If anyone wants to become an insurgent Iraq has shown them how to do it. Suicide bombs and IED's. Combat weapons are not even the way.

zBrown

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Dec 21, 2012 - 01:59pm PT
What stops a bad guy from having a gun is the correct question at this point.

donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Dec 21, 2012 - 02:09pm PT
Low information voter....let's see, that might be someone who believes in creationism and doesn't think that human caused global warming is factual. Now what party do you think such a person would vote for?
atchafalaya

Boulder climber
Dec 21, 2012 - 02:12pm PT
"A totalitarian state run by the all- knowing, all- seeing , and ever -compassionate liberal intellectual elite empowered by the government -dependent masses."

Hahahahahaha... Its posts like this that are the strongest argument for controlling assault weapons.
Roadie

Trad climber
Bishop, Ca
Dec 21, 2012 - 02:15pm PT
While the NRA does not weigh in on non-gun issues it seems like many of its members are also staunch Tea-party supporters. I wonder who the NRA thinks is going to end up paying for all those armed, and hopefully trained, school guards.
Maybe the NRA could pick up the tab.
Just a thought.
zBrown

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Dec 21, 2012 - 02:16pm PT
A totalitarian state run by the all- knowing, all- seeing , and ever -compassionate liberal intellectual elite empowered by the government -dependent masses.
They will fix everything.

The correct question here is how is someone as stupid as you to be prevented from owning a gun or even appearing in public. Time for you to crawl back into your survivalist cave.

JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Dec 21, 2012 - 02:19pm PT
Don't know about the NRA but I am positive the NBA has an unlimited supply.

Excellent, although I think the NRA's proposal is right up there, too.

Jstan, I wish I could be more sanguine on the role of the media in all this. Unfortunately, the role of the media has not changed since the inception of our Republic -- it is to sell its product. Whether it's Hearst ginning up hysteria over the Maine or the modern press making you think the murder rate is spiraling upward (rather than the truth, viz. downward), they're just trying to create enough of a sensation to get us to buy their wares.

Sad to say, the vast majority of the American public has no taste for facts, so no one reports mere facts except for a very few outlets. There's clearly a market for objective news; otherwise the Wall Street Journal would be out of business, given its rather high price with no free access. Unfortunately, that market is apparently pretty small. The New York Times might still be doing OK, but most other news organizations that report with any depth are in deep financial trouble.

If we could change that, we'd be on to something. Since I don't see that changing, we need to work with what we have. The media's going orgasmic over the possibility of using this latest tragedy to make illegal use of firearms more illegal was not one of the media's finer hours.

John
Dave Kos

Trad climber
Temecula
Dec 21, 2012 - 02:22pm PT
A totalitarian state run by the all- knowing, all- seeing , and ever -compassionate liberal intellectual elite empowered by the government -dependent masses.

BTW, which defense contractor you work for?

Just wondering how the money confiscated from my paycheck gets to you.
atchafalaya

Boulder climber
Dec 21, 2012 - 02:22pm PT
"Controlling assault weapons won't stop those events from happening"

I agree, but it makes sense to try to keep guns out of delusional idiots hands. And so I support any regulation that make it more difficult/impossible to obtain those weapons.
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Dec 21, 2012 - 02:27pm PT
So, is this a 'diss the tea party' thread?

If so, I'm all in. F*#k 'em.
wayne w

Trad climber
the nw
Dec 21, 2012 - 02:35pm PT
Perhaps we should consider arming the School custodial staff, lunch room employees, and crossing guards as well. That will solve the problem.
atchafalaya

Boulder climber
Dec 21, 2012 - 02:40pm PT
"That is not what is being proposed by the gun-hating Left. They are proposing that these
bans affect everyone . They won't stop until all weapons owned by ordinary citizens are prohibited.
They are exploiting this tragedy to bring that outcome about."

Thats just not true. Assault weapon bans should affect everyone, but noone is advocating taking your hunting rifles and shotguns, or handguns.
Dave Kos

Trad climber
Temecula
Dec 21, 2012 - 02:43pm PT
Well in order to defend this nation from hostile forces , and follow the dictates of the Constitution 'provide for the common defense', you can have our weapons made in Cuba, Venzuela, or even China, for mighty cheap.

Or we can have them made by a millions of middle-class welfare recipients working at quarter-speed.

Oh, wait! It's December...change that to one-tenth speed.




Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Dec 21, 2012 - 02:47pm PT
trained to do whatever it takes to stop them.

Like force them to commit suicide? That seems to be the common result of these brutal massacres. Why would death dissuade someone who wants to die?
Dave Kos

Trad climber
Temecula
Dec 21, 2012 - 02:56pm PT
If a mass killers knows that someone has the lethal means to stop them they are much more likely to think twice about trying to get what their sick minds want.

Or they'll just go to the mall.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Dec 21, 2012 - 03:12pm PT
“The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun.”

so says the NRA chief spokesman today

Well, bullsh#t.

Jared Loughner's rampage in Tucson was stopped when he had to pause to reload. Brave UNARMED citizens used that window of opportunity to pounce on him.
PAUL SOUZA

Trad climber
Central Valley, CA
Dec 21, 2012 - 03:15pm PT
While violence is a characteristic of mental illness, not all mentally ill people are violent.

Why don't we listen to the experts? Such as world renowned forensic psychiatrist, Dr. Park Dietz, who is in this video at 1:40.

Jebus H Bomz

climber
Reno, Nuh VAAAA duh
Dec 21, 2012 - 03:29pm PT
When only outlaws have guns, at least we'll have a damn good idea who the outlaws are. So we can shoot 'em!

It's so hard to tell who is bad now, what with all these "law abiding" citizens threatening revolt and giving back their bullets one well-aimed round at a time. Let's make it as simple as Republican rhetoric. Outlaw/Law abiding citizen. Abortion/Pregnancy. God/Allah. White/Illegal immigrant. Dualism is awesome!
rectorsquid

climber
Lake Tahoe
Dec 21, 2012 - 03:33pm PT
Public schools are already prisons. The kids are required by law to be there and have very limited ability to get out other than at organized yard time. Most schools are fenced in. Most have police of their own, at least part time.

Schools are already safer than most other places. This need to protect kids 100% in school then let them near a car or highway on the way home is absurd.

Dave
rectorsquid

climber
Lake Tahoe
Dec 21, 2012 - 03:37pm PT
As to the issue of an assault rifle competing against a pistol, the gun was not fully automatic. Is that type of semi-automatic rifle that mush easier to aim at the length of a classroom than a pistol?

Let's see, Glock handgun with 17 rounds in the clip against Bushmaster with ? rounds? The first three or four are the only rounds that will count so clip size is not really an issue.

Plus, if a teacher starts to shoot and misses, the attacker will still run for cover or be distracted from doing lots of evil.

I NOT NOT ADVOCATE teachers having guns in school, since there are no real gun dangers there anyhow, but arguments against it because of gun variations and coming from non-gun owners, are a little annoying.

Dave
FRUMY

Trad climber
SHERMAN OAKS,CA
Dec 21, 2012 - 03:42pm PT
Ya lets grow the government even more & put guards at every school. & how much more will that add to the U. S. debt.
Alan Rubin

climber
Amherst,MA.
Dec 21, 2012 - 03:49pm PT
As jghedge says above thetre were armed adults at the scene of the Giffords shooting--at least one was interviewed by the press. He chose not to shoot because in the--predictible--chaos it wasn't clear whom to shoot at,was afraid that he might hit innocent civilians, and was also afraid that the arriving cops would see him with a gun and shoot him. This is the reality of such situations--panic, chaos and uncertainty--that the NRA-types refuse to acknowledge in their assumption that more guns make things safer.
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Reno, Nuh VAAAA duh
Dec 21, 2012 - 03:50pm PT
Don't worry, Alan, now you will get the stats on guns stopping killings and criminals thwarted. To which somebody will respond with more unchecked sprees figures, accidental deaths, suicides.... And so on.... Repeat until nauseated.
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Reno, Nuh VAAAA duh
Dec 21, 2012 - 03:58pm PT
You'd think a mental health database is the last things Republicans would want.

edit: Heh. Couldn't help it. Hope I didn't throw somebody off their med adherence.
Alan Rubin

climber
Amherst,MA.
Dec 21, 2012 - 04:07pm PT
Also armed guard at Columbine, and armed cop arrived soon after. Both fired---both missed--killings continued.
cuvvy

Sport climber
arkansas
Dec 21, 2012 - 04:18pm PT
I think theyve got a massive hoard of stupid pills, so, no, they do not have a problem with stupid pills.
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Reno, Nuh VAAAA duh
Dec 21, 2012 - 04:19pm PT
Remember even the President was running black market guns in Mexico ( resulting in the death of innocent people).


America trades - gulp - arms?

Next thing you'll blow my mind and tell me we routinely hijack the democratic process in other countries when it's inconvenient to our interests.
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Dec 21, 2012 - 04:23pm PT
Is Limbaugh an NRA member? Cause he's got a pill problem.
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Reno, Nuh VAAAA duh
Dec 21, 2012 - 04:25pm PT
Is Limbaugh an NRA member? Cause he's got a pill problem.


I'm pretty sure that's one of the most crucial qualifications for NRA membership.
PSP also PP

Trad climber
Berkeley
Dec 21, 2012 - 04:25pm PT
http://www.meetthenra.org/nra-member/Harlon%20Carter

Harlon Carter changed the NRA form a hunting oriented association to a gun rights group . Convicted of murder in 1931 and sounds like an all-around A##hole based on his doings along the mexican border. One of the roots to this nonsense.
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Dec 21, 2012 - 04:27pm PT
I can't believe what a disgusting selfish human being that LaPierre as#@&%e is.

Yeah let's insult the memory of those 20 children that died ONE WEEK ago by proposing more guns will solve the problem (and pad the pockets of his buddies) and blame everyone else but themselves.

Yeah armed guards are THE solution. Like a guy with an assault rifle wouldn't just take the guard out first.

I'm not even opposed to armed guards, especially at bad schools with a history of gun problems, but to ignore easy access to assault rifles and large capacity clips contributed to this tragedy is spineless and evil.

I was on the fence about assault rifles (I see the appeal of shooting them) but now I say f*#k it ban them with no grandfather clause this time.
Ban high capacity clips.
Ban armor piercing bullets.
Ban sniper rifles.
Pass laws requiring guns be locked up or serious consequences.
Pass laws limiting violent video games and movies to 18 plus with serious consequences for allowing a child to watch them.
Do a much better job with mental health treatment and teaching doctors and parents what to watch out for.
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Dec 21, 2012 - 04:28pm PT
I'm pretty sure that's one of the most crucial qualifications for NRA membership

I don't have health insurance though. Should I rob a Walgreens for the pills?
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Reno, Nuh VAAAA duh
Dec 21, 2012 - 04:35pm PT
Yes , black market arms- run by the President and his attorney general.
These illegal weapons have been responsible for countless deaths in Mexico and the US.

I would shudder if there were CIA involvement. I wouldn't want them to soil their hands in this.

Seriously?

The only way you're going to faze me is if you told me the Prez is personally loading trucks. And I'd only be taken aback by the fact he found time in his schedule.

I'm sure no other American orchestrated arms smuggling has resulted in American deaths. I'm sure we haven't smuggled drugs, money, participated in human trafficking. Administration after administration.
Cragman

Trad climber
June Lake, California....via the Damascus Road
Dec 21, 2012 - 04:35pm PT
photo not found
Missing photo ID#279678
mojede

Trad climber
Butte, America
Dec 21, 2012 - 04:41pm PT
From the Harlon Carter bio off the NRA site:

Carter responded that arming dangerous individuals was “a price we pay for freedom.”



Just who the fack is supposed to pay this "price"????



Oh yeah, the majority and not the advocates...
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Reno, Nuh VAAAA duh
Dec 21, 2012 - 04:41pm PT
Yeah, Cragman, I've seen your thoughts. The summary is if you don't carry a weapon you deserve to have your family raped by a black bear. Good on you for liking Samuel L. Jackson though. Reformed crack head, great actor to be applauded.

Let some of people who don't know any better exactly what you and your ilk propose to do.
You want to ban all guns and abrogate the second amendment.
Am I correct?


Who are you talking to?

I'm honestly confused on the best tactic, but I have not advocated denial of the second amendment as it is currently understood. Other than in jest for mocking puerile arguments from the likes of you, anyway.

Me and my ilk, indeed. Dualism at it's best. No solution, no compromise, same old dogmatic, ultimately nihilistic BS from you and your ilk.
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Dec 21, 2012 - 04:47pm PT
That Samuel Jackson quote is a fake.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Dec 21, 2012 - 04:50pm PT
Hey Donald, while we are cracking don on the rights of organizations that fill our citizens heads with nonsense, do not forget about the churches, the biggest purveyors of BS.
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Reno, Nuh VAAAA duh
Dec 21, 2012 - 05:04pm PT
Better stick to just straight insults.

I wouldn't want to completely co opt your schtick, Donald. Plus, I usually save straight insults for true a-hole sh#t heels like Bluering.

Yes, pretty dualistic and nihilistic answers on your part. No guns = anarchy in your mind. Pretty black and white.

Nah, it's time to face up to the fact you're part of the non solution, man. A leech on society whose vice kills others.

edit: Whoops! I just straight insulted that dog!
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Reno, Nuh VAAAA duh
Dec 21, 2012 - 05:08pm PT
We ALWAYS Win, and You ALWAYS lose.

Lebowski! Stay out of Malibu, deadbeat!
atchafalaya

Boulder climber
Dec 21, 2012 - 05:10pm PT
"monkey with the Constitution"

Hahahaha, nice Donald. "monkey" with the constitution sounds really bad. Do you mean "amend"? The framers created a process where the constitution could be amended if needed. Its been amended (i.e., monkeyed with) over 27 times. Have you heard about those later amendments? Were those only the acts of deranged liberals? hahahahah... please continue.
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Reno, Nuh VAAAA duh
Dec 21, 2012 - 05:12pm PT
Nevada's constitution has been monkeyed with over a 140 times. I didn't know we had such a primate problem here.
Bruce Morris

Social climber
Belmont, California
Dec 21, 2012 - 05:14pm PT
"They have a history of being powerless vassals and serfs who traded their freedom for security by an overlord."

The words of a rugged individualist without any historical perspective whatsoever.

What about Magna Carta and English common law? That's the common tradition of individual liberty in all the English-speaking democracies including the UK and the USA. Our Constitution and Bill of Rights are further extensions and modifications of the fundamental tenets of English common law.

We signed the North Atlantic Treaty and fought Hitler and the National Socialists together to defend those rights.
Cragman

Trad climber
June Lake, California....via the Damascus Road
Dec 21, 2012 - 05:18pm PT
We have so many thousands of service men and women coming out of service and need work.

Putting these well-trained patriots to work to protect our kids is a win-win.
atchafalaya

Boulder climber
Dec 21, 2012 - 05:23pm PT
"We have so many thousands of service men and women coming out of service and need work.

Putting these well-trained patriots to work to protect our kids is a win-win."

You are an idiot if you think 20something year old veterans, some with PTSD, should be intentionally armed near our kids to protect them. Your an idiot anyways, but that statement was asinine. GFYS.
Dr. F.

Ice climber
SoCal
Dec 21, 2012 - 05:24pm PT
Remember even the President was running black market guns in Mexico ( resulting in the death of innocent people).

Dunghole
Yes Bush was running guns into Mexico that caused the death of many.
Republican hypocrites

Thank goodness Obama and Holder shut it down

You should see the sh#t Dunghole posts on the Religion thread, he really believes the opposite of facts.
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Dec 21, 2012 - 05:28pm PT
GFYS

Easy there, Scooter.

You may disagree with Dean, I do, but lay off the haterade and be respectful.

Type what you'd say in person. Then duck, because that sort of sh#t will get your jaw broken in real life.

Just a heads up.
Dr. F.

Ice climber
SoCal
Dec 21, 2012 - 05:28pm PT
Obama had jobs bills for the Veterans, The Republicans filibustered them, so the unemployment would stay high, and make the economy worse on purpose.

If you idiots would stop voting in idiotic Republicans that want to keep veterans from getting jobs, then they would have jobs.

If you idiots would stop voting in idiotic Republicans that want to keep the economy bad, then the economy would not be so bad.
Dr. F.

Ice climber
SoCal
Dec 21, 2012 - 05:30pm PT
China is not a left wing socialist country, you moron

It's a right wing totalitarian communist Country
just like what Russia was, and Cuba

There is nothing progressive or liberal about their form of Gov. period
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Dec 21, 2012 - 05:30pm PT
make the economy worse on purpose.

This actually happened. McConnell (sp) said as much.
Cragman

Trad climber
June Lake, California....via the Damascus Road
Dec 21, 2012 - 05:31pm PT
Thanks Brandon, but his vomit means nothing to me.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Dec 21, 2012 - 05:31pm PT
Yes jghedge, it would appear he really is that stupid.
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Trad climber
SLO, Ca
Dec 21, 2012 - 05:33pm PT
The idea of armed guards at elementary schools is so idiotic I can't even believe it was proposed.

Concealed weapons in bars and on college campuses, large quantity magazines, lock down procedures for kindergartners, legislation to allow guns on the private property of others against their will, it's all just totally nuts.


Cragman

Trad climber
June Lake, California....via the Damascus Road
Dec 21, 2012 - 05:34pm PT
I spend a lot of time in Ecuador. Every bank, hospital, mall, and school, etc., is guarded my armed personnel.

It works.
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Trad climber
SLO, Ca
Dec 21, 2012 - 05:36pm PT
Exactly. I've been to lots of third world countries that have armed guards everywhere. I'd like to think I'm not living in one.
Cragman

Trad climber
June Lake, California....via the Damascus Road
Dec 21, 2012 - 05:39pm PT
We guard our banks...why not our most precious resource?
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Reno, Nuh VAAAA duh
Dec 21, 2012 - 05:43pm PT
Exactly. I've been to lots of third world countries that have armed guards everywhere. I'd like to think I'm not living in one.


Righto. Long have I suspected the agenda of conservatives is to bleed this country into the third world. Never have I seen such obvious proof of it though!

Hey, what's wrong with armed guards? What's wrong with getting your food from the back of a U.N. truck? Hey, it works in Africa!

F*#k.
Dr. F.

Ice climber
SoCal
Dec 21, 2012 - 05:45pm PT
What a stupid Talking Dog <br/>
What a stupid Talking Dog

Credit: Dr. F.
Bad Dog, go back to your box
Cragman

Trad climber
June Lake, California....via the Damascus Road
Dec 21, 2012 - 05:46pm PT
I think what we must face is the fact that the world in which we live is growing more and more evil by the day.

After 9-1, we have had to grow accustomed to the TSA in our airports. Perhaps this evil of shooters killing our kids is yet one more thing we have to combat, just like those terrorists.

The world is failing, and we have to find a way to fight that.
atchafalaya

Boulder climber
Dec 21, 2012 - 05:48pm PT
Would anyone here, who have children, be ok with Ron Anderson, or cragman being armed at your kids school?

divad

Trad climber
wmass
Dec 21, 2012 - 05:49pm PT
We have to start the dialog on limiting 1st Amendment rights. The media has for too long been allowed to fill the minds of potential mass killers with unrestrained images of violence and mayhem. They are also allowed to make instant celebrities of of these killers for naked profit.

soo, take away the pens and let 'em have their swords...

that'll work...
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Dec 21, 2012 - 05:56pm PT
Everyone here is looking at a picture, some say it's clearly white and others say its as black as deep space.

Unfortunately it's grey, all grey through and through and a hundred variations, too.

Armed guards are a good idea some places, some times. Some guns are awesome and we should have some of them in society. Some regulation is needed, and some people will gun down schools.

We keep trying to paint with a broader brush, when we are uniquely f*#ked.


As long as guns exist there will be people that will do this. Now we're back to playing that old game of trading freedoms for safety. I f*#king hate it. I don't own guns but lots of friends do... They wouldn't want me to lose climbing, and guns are their passion.


Around and around we go, circling our children's graves with our picket signs and dogma.
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Dec 21, 2012 - 05:56pm PT
We guard our banks...why not our most precious resource?

I've yet to see an armed guard in a bank in the US.

Maybe you're living in the wrong place?
Dave Kos

Trad climber
Temecula
Dec 21, 2012 - 05:57pm PT
Didn't someone mention a few days ago that the gun manufacturers would be pushing into the education market?

It's all about sales.

One can't help but observe the selective use of various types of logic here:

"Take a away the guns and they will just use a knife, or find some means to manufacture a bomb. It doesn't matter the type of firearm, a revolver or high-capacity semi-automatic, the killers will find a way..."

These killers are so crafty and resourceful - they will find a way around every obstacle to achiece their goals.

But apparently none of them would ever figure out that they would just need to shoot the guard first.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Dec 21, 2012 - 05:59pm PT
ive suggested this before,, but there is this gubbment org known as "HOME land security"...If they REALLY wanted to secure our "home land" how about they raise the cap and pony up some guards instead of flying HELOS all over the place? Or setting up "sting ops" withe the USFWS over 2 dead turkey skins from Mexico..
Dave Kos

Trad climber
Temecula
Dec 21, 2012 - 06:01pm PT
I think what we must face is the fact that the world in which we live is growing more and more evil by the day.

That is only true if we ignore just about all of history.

Even if one read nothing but the Bible, they would find ample evidence that the world is a far more peaceful and harmonious place today than it ever has been.

michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Dec 21, 2012 - 06:07pm PT
LOL, don't go to a public school in California.

F*cking libtard.
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Dec 21, 2012 - 06:08pm PT
the world in which we live is growing more and more evil by the day.


Cragman, I thought this a fairly alarming statement. I'm not sure what you are alluding to exactly but I thought at least one measure might be this:

http://www.systemicpeace.org/conflict.htm

Which dosn't jive much with your statement, except perhaps for the "International Terrorism" trends.
Which is interesting as the increase in "Domestic Terrorism" which these mass killings are, is somewhat parallel.

At any rate, what exactly were you talking about? The world has a bumpy road but it dosn't seem to be in any immediate death spiral, in fact statistically just the opposite it could be argued.
Dave Kos

Trad climber
Temecula
Dec 21, 2012 - 06:09pm PT
F*cking libtard.

OHHH you so clever with insults!!!!!!!!

michaeld, let's hear about your military service, oh brave defender of freedom.
Ricky D

Trad climber
Sierra Westside
Dec 21, 2012 - 06:09pm PT
How about we designate one day a year as "National Shoot Somebody Day"?

Just have a 24 hour free-for-all where all of the gun nuts, crazies, mother rapers, daddy haters and doomsday preppers can blast away with unfettered glee.

A win-win on a lot of levels - population reduction, economic upsurge for Walmarts, release of pent up tensions, fodder for any number of reality shows on TLC.

I would set the tag limit at one person apiece just so we show we are still civilized.


Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Dec 21, 2012 - 06:11pm PT
I get the feeling that Dean wants to see anyone he perceives as a threat gone. Poof. Magic god stuff. Gone.

Edit; I could be wrong. I've never met the guy, and I do respect him. We just have vastly different opinions on this issue.
Dave Kos

Trad climber
Temecula
Dec 21, 2012 - 06:13pm PT
Poof. Magic god stuff. Gone.

It's what Jesus did to his persecutors, right?
sandstone conglomerate

climber
sharon conglomerate central
Dec 21, 2012 - 06:18pm PT
donald, how did you get your border collie to wear that hat? Mine won't stand for that sh#t...
bergbryce

Mountain climber
California
Dec 21, 2012 - 06:19pm PT
In case it hasn't been mentioned, Columbine had a security officer.
Got anymore half-assed, dodging the issue completely suggestions?

I also can't recall seeing an armed guard since I lived in Chicago and banked at the main Harris Bank branch in the south Loop which did indeed have an armed guard on the premisses. That was 12 years and probably a hundred banks ago.
10b4me

Boulder climber
Somewhere on 395
Dec 21, 2012 - 06:22pm PT




Extremely weak points , but sounding strong because of the insults.
.

Boneheads.

Thompson, that is hypocritical
10b4me

Boulder climber
Somewhere on 395
Dec 21, 2012 - 06:25pm PT
We guard our banks


Haven't seen any guards at my bank.(Chase)
Dave Kos

Trad climber
Temecula
Dec 21, 2012 - 06:38pm PT
And guess why banks don't have armed guards?


Because they don't want anyone to get killed.

How hard is that to understand?
locker

Social climber
state of Kumbaya...
Dec 21, 2012 - 06:40pm PT


""Haven't seen any guards at my bank.(Chase)"

Or mine (Citi)"
...

Or mine...

US BAKED...
froodish

Social climber
Portland, Oregon
Dec 21, 2012 - 06:43pm PT
Not at all. From the viewpoint of who their masters are (gun manufacturers) anything that sells more guns is brilliant.
rurprider

Trad climber
Mt. Rubidoux
Dec 21, 2012 - 06:44pm PT
1st Amemdment rights? Don't you mean the 2nd Amendment? Use your power as a citizen and vote for congressman and senators that support restrictions on assault rifles and semiautomatic handguns. It's not the NRA that requlates gun sales and legislation regarding guns...it's congress. Vote for legislators that AREN'T pro gun. CONGRESS HAS A STUPID PILL PROBLEM!!!!! THEY'RE ADDICTED.
crankster

Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
Dec 21, 2012 - 06:49pm PT
Gunnuts revealing themselves to be: Gun Nuts.
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Dec 21, 2012 - 06:51pm PT
Hell, I don't even get asked for ID at my banks.

Maybe some of you should move out of Tweakerville, CA, and discover the beautiful mountains of........wait, sh#t, keep them away.........Vermont!

Good climbing, the ocean is near, there ARE bugs, but they aren't as bad as they're made out to be.

Ah, Vermont.

Dave Kos

Trad climber
Temecula
Dec 21, 2012 - 06:53pm PT
I've never actually been to the bank I've used for more than twenty years (USAA)

It's in San Antonio.

They prolly have guns!

HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Dec 21, 2012 - 07:03pm PT
The N.R.A. Crawls From Its Hidey Hole

Wayne LaPierre, the spokesman for the National Rifle Association, would have been better advised to remain wherever he had been hiding after the Newtown massacre, rather than appear at the news conference on Friday. No one seriously believed the N.R.A. when it said it would contribute something “meaningful” to the discussion about gun violence. The organization’s very existence is predicated on the nation being torn in half over guns. Still, we were stunned by Mr. LaPierre’s mendacious, delusional, almost deranged rant.


Mr. LaPierre looked wild-eyed at times as he said the killing was the fault of the media, songwriters and singers and the people who listen to them, movie and TV scriptwriters and the people who watch their work, advocates of gun control, video game makers and video game players.

The N.R.A., which devotes itself to destroying any hope of compromise on guns, however, is blameless. So are the unscrupulous and unlicensed dealers who sell guns to criminals, and the gun makers who bankroll Mr. LaPierre so he can help them keep peddling their ever-more-lethal, ever-more-efficient products, and politicians who kill laws that would exert even modest controls over guns.

He offered nothing more than the most ridiculous anti-gun-control rhetoric we’ve heard since the Newtown murders. His solution to the proliferation of guns, including semiautomatic rifles that have little purpose beyond killing people as quickly as possible, is to put more guns in more places. Mr. LaPierre would put a police officer in every school and compel teachers and principals to become armed guards, because his group won’t do anything about the ease with which anyone can get a gun.

He wants volunteer and professional firefighters, who already risk their lives every day, to be charged with thwarting an assault by a deranged murderer. The same applies to paramedics, security guards, veterans, retired police officers. “The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun,” Mr. LaPierre said. (It is interesting that such a literal reader of the Second Amendment would have missed the fact that Congress has no power over local police forces and schools. Talk about Big Brother government.)

We cannot imagine trying to turn the principals and teachers who care for our children every day into an armed mob. And let’s be clear, civilians bristling with guns to prevent the “next Newtown” are an armed mob even with training offered up by Mr. LaPierre. Any town officials or school principal who takes up the N.R.A. on that offer should be fired.

Mr. LaPierre said the Newtown killing spree “might” have been averted if the killer had been confronted by an armed security guard. It’s far more likely that there would have been a dead armed security guard — just as there would have been even more carnage if civilians had started firing weapons in the Aurora movie theater.

In the 62 mass-murder cases over 30 years examined recently by the magazine Mother Jones, not one was stopped by an armed civilian. There are two cases in which armed civilians confronted a shooter. Both were immediately shot. One died.

We have known for many, many years that a sheriff’s deputy was at Columbine High School in 1999 and traded shots with Eric Harris while 11 of the 13 people he and Dylan Klebold killed were still alive. He missed four times.

People like Mr. LaPierre want us to believe that civilians can be trained to use lethal force with cold precision in moments of fear and crisis. That requires a willful ignorance about the facts. Police officers know that firing a weapon is a huge risk; that’s why they avoid doing it. In August, New York City police officers opened fire on a gunman outside the Empire State Building. They killed him and wounded nine bystanders.

Mr. LaPierre said the news media give mass killers the attention they seek. He said the news media call the semiautomatic weapon used in Newtown a machine gun, claim that it’s a military weapon and that it fires the most powerful ammunition available. That’s not true. What is true is that there is a growing call in America for stricter gun control.


NYT editorial was harsh but nailed it. I find it extra hilarious that the "a gun doesn't make someone homicidal" lobby have decided that killing people in computer games DOES make people homicidal. If that was true then I'd have killed a few school's worth of kids by now.
rectorsquid

climber
Lake Tahoe
Dec 21, 2012 - 07:08pm PT
To be honest, I am all for the right to bear arms and all that stuff that the NRA supposedly supports. But the actions of that group and the few vocal gun nuts is quite disturbing. I suppose that they reject gun registration databases, and all that, because when the sh#t hits the fan and they become the rebels trying to stop some sort of out of oppresive government, they want it to be hard for that government to find and exterminate them.

That type of thinking is just not rational. Zombies and political unrest both happen very slowly and there will be plenty of time to run and hide from either.

The NRA are a lot like the politicians at the moment. They are unwilling to compromise for their own good. They are so wrapped up in their own principals that they can't see how it is working against them. And they need to hire better public speakers or get some decent speech writers.

Dave


AndyO

Social climber
Brooklyn, NY
Dec 21, 2012 - 07:36pm PT
Rootin Tootin Shootin!!
Rootin Tootin Shootin!!
Credit: AndyO
Ricky

climber
Sometimes LA
Dec 21, 2012 - 07:38pm PT
What about personal responablity, the kid could have just as easily built a bomb.

I trust this first page comment has already been pilloried as the ignorant gibberish that it is.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Dec 21, 2012 - 07:40pm PT
Concerning the NRA.....no pill needed.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Dec 21, 2012 - 07:58pm PT
I would have loved to have been a fly on the wall during the board meeting when the NRA was discussing the language of today's press conference. "God damn liberal media!"

Yeah, lets rethink freedom of the press in this day and age of instant news reporting. We can limit the media so that we do not have to regulate gun ownership. Forget about the fact that without the main stream media we would be relying on citizen bloggers, that would be great!


lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Dec 21, 2012 - 08:06pm PT
The First Amendment addresses the rights of freedom of religion (prohibiting Congress from establishing a religion and protecting the right to free exercise of religion), freedom of speech, freedom of the press, freedom of assembly, and freedom of petition.

The Second Amendment to the United States Constitution is the part of the United States Bill of Rights that protects the right of the people to keep and bear arms.

Funny first the rights or freedom of speech then after they agreed on that they gave us the rights to own, make and buy guns. The first two things.

There is talk of Security guards protecting all schools by the Stupid NRA: Police $$$$$$$$$$$,stupid idea since they should be looking for crime not guarding or waiting for something to happen. National Guard $$$$$$$$$$, another stupid idea. How about giving teachers to arm themselves: let’s see one goes ballistic because one of her students can’t shut up or does not hand in his/her homework in time or maybe she shoots and her round misses and goes through the plaster board and kills a kid in the class next to hers.

Yes! The answer will be to hire private guards. The contractor with the lowest bid will win and hire Ex-Walmart employees, retired people in their 70’s also will hire “Back to Work off Welfare People” ; $9 an hour; they will eventually get bored because nothing happens and they caught for smoking pot. Big scandal, billions of wasted dollars, so try another idea.

Cameras never work; fuzzy and lack of time to respond, plus too way expensive to buy A11M technology. I see there is someone selling Bullet-proof backpacks; first no such thing it is Bullet Resistant/Resistive terminology plus it stops handguns not high power rounds shot from a high power semi-automatic rifle like the one used in the school so waste of funds and law suits concur from that manufacture by cutting cost and disregarding regulated and code because he was awarded the lowest bid which is the requirement by the FEDS. He files for Bankruptcy and runs out of town. Plus the kid was shot in the head so no protection.

So all stupid ideas and give it to the stupid NRA to come up with stupid solutions.

OK

Just went to my local probation department this morning not for me but to hand in some papers dealing with a juvenile stealing some of my personal stuff 15 months ago; we went to trail, he gets a year’s probation and 250.00 fine which is my deductible. Had one week to replaced everything because I went overseas, came back insurance company pays me 6/7 months later when I get back.

So I walk in, it is fortified, had to laugh since I do risk assessments. The woman behind the window asks “Can I help you”, I say need to drop these off to one of your staff regarding going back to court to get the deductible: reason for his fine. We will go to court late Jan. of 2013.

Before she comes out I am assessing the room and see four mistakes, windows, access, lighting…… 2 minutes or less she shows up opens the door and I notice her left shoe toe is against her side of the door and held the door with her right hand to stop entry which was good, she relaxed, gave her the papers she requested and then I knock on the glass window just above programmable lock. I hit and notice it is not glass but plastic [mistake assessment #5] and was so thin could of broken it easily. But I asked her what’s wrong with this, she says ???? “Knocking on the window instead of the door” I said “no” this door is the same setup how the kid got in the classrooms by shooting and opening it in from the inside. She is startled and says “Wow, you are correct”, thanked me and told she will make a note of it and will tell the appropriate people. Then told her where it should be placed.

So what will happen and is already in action for protection for children so they are safe: smaller windows to the outside of the new schools. Older schools will be updated with precast panels with a spray on fragmented resistive membrane on the back to shield at the appropriate height. The children will be placed further away from the windows not near them, Latches to doors will be wired for wireless automatic shutdown by a single or multiple button either by a person or by the sound of a rifle round going off.

Canada has a Sin-Tax: cigarettes and booze. Have the NRA keep their stupid ideas and create a Violence Tax not an anti-violence because Americans well some actually a lot of them like Violence; as for me, I am not one of them on all rifles that are military styled.

Booze and guns have you ever notice the prices have really never changed in the last 50 years; so double the amount 50% on assault rifles and ammo. Half or that 50% tax is used for upgrading schools. Make sure they do not look like forts but blend in and use green products.

And that is just for schools what about violence against women and rape, pedophiles against children.

But then again really nothing just like the battery commercial; it keeps going and keeps going.

Credit: lostinshanghai

Credit: lostinshanghai

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 21, 2012 - 08:11pm PT
Just WRONG about prices not changing, Lost.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 21, 2012 - 09:08pm PT
I just hope that if there is civil unrest and predators at my friend donini's door that he can keep them at bay tossing used Depends and brandishing ice tools.
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Dec 21, 2012 - 09:27pm PT
Right….

The NRA says there should be a cop in every school with a gun….

LaPieair didn't mention who was going to pay all those cops…
And don't ask the law and order republigoons for any taxes to pay for it…


hey, may Gov cromneycan ask his supporters to foot the bill…?


Doubt it all around.


NRA - New Stooge Association - Where great ideas haven't got a chance in hell!!!
AE

climber
Boulder, CO
Dec 21, 2012 - 09:55pm PT
This is the other thread
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=2020096&tn=40#msg2021455

Dec 21, 2012 - 06:19pm PT
my addition re:
the NRA Monument to Stupidity

(instead of my reposting it here, although perhaps that would be even more effective)

I also KNEW Mr. O was gonna have to go off re his gun-totin' wackness.
The saddest aspect to all this is our country once had an optimism that brought people together in crises; now, the prepper mindset has fostered a culture of cowardly, fearful, paranoid loners convinced they can somehow survive without anyone else, as long as they can kill everyone who approaches. What if, pray tell, those are actually people gracious enough to be coming to your assistance?
Wait a little while, and we'll get to see the first unarmed gunman, who walks into a school, grabs the nearest firearm off a teacher/guard then....
Or, the wierdo who gets a job "guarding" a school, then takes out a few dozen...
A story a few days ago summed it up succinctly: as long as such weapons are readily available, no amount of protection will be adequate, as made clear in the fact that Ronald Reagan and Jim Brady were surrounded by the best-trained, armed security in the world - Secret Service agents - yet were both nearly killed. The concept of armed defenders is total B.S.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Dec 21, 2012 - 09:59pm PT


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arms_race

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner's_dilemma
"The Cold War
The Cold War and similar arms races can be modelled as a Prisoner's Dilemma situation.[22] During the Cold War the opposing alliances of NATO and the Warsaw Pact both had the choice to arm or disarm. From each side's point of view: Disarming whilst your opponent continues to arm would have led to military inferiority and possible annihilation. If both sides chose to arm, neither could afford to attack each other, but at the high cost of maintaining and developing a nuclear arsenal. If both sides chose to disarm, war would be avoided and there would be no costs. If your opponent disarmed while you continue to arm, then you achieve superiority.

Although the 'best' overall outcome is for both sides to disarm, the rational course for both sides is to arm. This is indeed what happened, and both sides poured enormous resources in to military research and armament for the next thirty years until the dissolution of the Soviet Union broke the deadlock."
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 21, 2012 - 10:06pm PT
Got to agree, stupid idea on at least 3 levels.

Public schools are just one of the things my people came up with. In Israel a teacher actually shot and killed a terrorist, but in Israel every citizen does 2 years (women included) in the world's finest military.

Can't arm teachers here, but can't pay for armed guards who can't be everywhere at once anyway.

Guns are not going away soon (no matter how many times you click your heels and wish on a star) so maybe it is time for a cultural change. Maybe we need to drop the rudeness. Maybe we need to destigmatize mental health issues.
I've said it before; make this a world people want to be part of.
The Warbler

climber
the edge of America
Dec 21, 2012 - 10:09pm PT
Haven't read this thread past Donut's post -


Just one well-trained individual so that any potential mass killers will know that someone there at any given school is armed and trained to do whatever it takes to stop them.


More disassociation from reality from the right.

Your average classroom has 20 to 30 kids in it. If a psycho with an automatic weapon, who plans to off himself after he does his thing, enters that classroom and starts firing, how many minutes does it take him to do insane damage?

Next question - how many armed guards per school would it take to reliably stop him in this theoretical scenario before that damage is done?

How many "potential mass killers" would be deterred by the thought of being confronted by a gun toting security guard?

The NRA has one underlying goal - protect gun manufacturers' profits.
Rankin

Social climber
Greensboro, North Carolina
Dec 21, 2012 - 10:11pm PT
Great thread title. The answer is yes. The NRA is in for a serious haircut over the next few years.
McHale's Navy

Trad climber
Panorama City, California & living in Seattle
Dec 21, 2012 - 10:16pm PT
Personally, I think more people should buy more cameras. With a camera you can shoot all the effing time AND retrieve yer shots!

The government could have a program where as if somebody goes in to buy a gun, the salesman has to say, " Yes, that 45 is really nice but we have an 18 MP crop sensor here by Canon that you can take home fer less - here, take a couple shots - tell me what you think ".
AE

climber
Boulder, CO
Dec 21, 2012 - 10:20pm PT
Ed,
Why has no one noted how quickly we then annihilated the Soviets?
Oh, guess it was because we didn't.
Hmm. Makes one pause.
Unfortunately, the world has a few total nutjobs, along with a few total nut countries. I do not feel strongly about the lack of Russian firepower, the continuing strength of China, but I DO worry about adding Iran and Pakistan and North Korea to the list.
Extending the analogy, I feel a lot more comfortable knowing that at least reasonably trained law enforcement officers are the ones likely to be responding to the rare assault event, versus Rambo Ron types who are more likely to hit one another, or other innocents, in a melee, or even a simple false alarm.
The myth of the old West gunslinger is just that - very few law-abiding citizens packed sidearms, yet miraculously most of them survived.
Back on topic, clearly the NRA's primary agenda, now that Obama's reelected, is to sell as many sponsor's weapons and bullets as possible, and what better method than to convince paranoid populations that arming schools will somehow make them safer?
Dr. F.

Ice climber
SoCal
Dec 21, 2012 - 10:53pm PT
We already have well-regulated militias - the cops, Nat Guard, military etc

Private, civilian gun owners are neither well-regulated, or part of a militia, therefore they're not constitutionally allowed to own guns.

Pretty simple, really.
Hedge

Yes

The 2nd amendment says nothing about private civilians being able to have any weapon they want.
It's just another right wing con, twisting the Constitution to say what they want it to say
The Warbler

climber
the edge of America
Dec 21, 2012 - 10:56pm PT
The 2nd amendment says nothing about citizens being able to have any weapon they want

Not to mention when it was written there were effectively no automatic weapons.
Dr. F.

Ice climber
SoCal
Dec 21, 2012 - 11:01pm PT
Wayne LaPierre Speech Was A Total Public Relations Disaster, Say PR Experts


Posted: 12/21/2012 4:22 pm EST | Updated: 12/21/2012 6:17 pm EST
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/21/wayne-lapierre-speech-public-relations-disaster_n_2346967.html

Public relations experts who have experience working with the gun industry expressed horror on Friday afternoon at the National Rifle Association's response to the Newtown, Conn., shootings.

The group's executive vice president, Wayne LaPierre, struck a scolding tone on Friday, blaming the video game industry and media for exposing youth to a culture of violence, and calling for armed police or security guards in schools: "The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun," LaPierre said.

Public relations professionals reached by The Huffington Post said the timing of his message, which broke a week of silence in the wake of the tragic murder of 26 children and adults at Sandy Hook Elementary School, could be an irredeemable mistake for the group.

“It was worse than if the NRA had not spoken at all,” said Gene Grabowski, executive vice president of Levick Strategic Communications, a Washington, D.C.-based issues management firm that has worked with firearms manufacturers. "The same message about the culture in another time and place might have made sense, but in context of tragedy, it seemed mean-spirited, cold and misguided."

Grabowski also said the NRA made a mistake by remaining silent on its social media channels last week. After the Sandy Hook tragedy, the organization stopped activity on all of its Twitter, Facebook and YouTube accounts.

The NRA is under close scrutiny this week as the Sandy Hook shooting renews the political and social debate over gun-control laws. The organization is one of the nation's most powerful lobby groups, but its extreme policy positions don't jibe with all gun owners, many of whom support tighter gun-control laws, according to a survey from a prominent Republican pollster in July.

"They have come out too aggressively," said Jonathan Bernstein, president of Los Angeles-based Bernstein Crisis Management. "[I'm] not even sure they have listened to their own members."

The NRA did not immediately respond to a request for comment.
Dr. F.

Ice climber
SoCal
Dec 21, 2012 - 11:04pm PT
10 Reasons Why Arming Teachers Is A Really Stupid Idea


2012/12/21
By John Viall


And now, with twenty-six fresh graves filled or to fill, what do the most strident gun-rights advocates want to discuss? What do Second Amendment absolutists (those who say the right to bear arms cannot be infringed) suggest that we do to protect innocents like Jack Pinto?

Of course! We arm people like Ms. Soto. We arm teachers.


Why is this idea stupid, you ask? As a former teacher, allow me to explain: first and foremost, it won’t work. It won’t guarantee the kind of safety our children deserve. And we, as a nation, can no longer afford the luxury of wishful thinking where these kind of attacks are concerned. We owe the victims of this horrendous attack better. We owe it to all of our children, both living and dead, to face reality and craft sensible national policies. Here are a few reasons why arming teachers is an absurd place to start:

1. If we place a gun in the office, ready to a principal’s hand (or to the hand of some other school defender), as some absolutists are now suggesting, what happens if the heavily armed intruder shoots his way in through a different doorway?

2. What if two maniacal killers are involved? Then one defender isn’t enough (See: Columbine, 1999).

3. If the psychopath has a semi-automatic weapon clearly the defender will require (at minimum) a semi-automatic weapon. How exactly does this gun vs. gun strategy play out if the attack occurs at the start of the school day, or during a class change, when halls are crowded with children? How many bullets do the absolutists want to see flying around our schools?

4. How do we protect kids on a playground during recess if a psycho shows up and starts spraying fire? (That’s already been done. See: Stockton, 1989)

5. What if the psycho lurks by the roadside and waits in the morning until a bus loaded with children passes by? What if he opens fire at that them? (Same idea: end of the day.)

6. What if the killer forces his way in through the kitchen and into the cafeteria at lunch? (Arm cooks with guns? At least they already have knives.)

7. How do we defend if the perpetrator calls in a fake bomb threat and the children empty out onto the lawn; and then he arrives to start shooting?

8. What do we do if the psycho pulls up in a car in front of any school, which is exactly what happened at Sandy Hook, and jumps out and starts shooting as students enter some morning? (Same idea, exiting: afternoon.)

9. What if the perpetrator parks his car, walks up to just about any first floor classroom in America and starts firing through windows?

10. Suppose a killer approaches a high school soccer field during the first period of a tie game and starts blasting? (Same idea: track meet, softball game, tennis match, marching band or cheer leading practice.)
zBrown

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Dec 21, 2012 - 11:11pm PT
NRA is a big part of the problem

Scalia is a bigger part.

The Warbler

climber
the edge of America
Dec 21, 2012 - 11:13pm PT
The NRA thinks guns are the solution.

Guns are the problem.


Typical republicon bullshit
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Dec 21, 2012 - 11:18pm PT
while the idea of having armed guards at school is abhorrent. our current laws and near term future laws dealing with weapons WOULD NOT prevent a Sandy hook from happening.

the only thing that could have prevented sandy hook is an armed guard....

as abhorrent as that may be.
Dave Kos

Trad climber
Temecula
Dec 21, 2012 - 11:25pm PT
There was an armed guard at Columbine.

He even fired at the criminals before they killed.

Didn't change a thing.

It is not an arms race. Some just want it to be. They profit from it.

If we treat it as an arms race, we will continue to lose.

zBrown

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Dec 21, 2012 - 11:25pm PT
the only thing that could have prevented sandy hook is an armed guard....

Rain on your parade

What if Adam (whatshisname) did not have any guns and/or bullets


He won't make it to 80 - his kind consumes themselves from within

Probably true about the consumption, but it wouldn't surprise me if he lasts longer. I try not to wish anyone ill, so I won't. However, should he pass on, I would not be grieving.


Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Dec 21, 2012 - 11:32pm PT
the only thing that could have prevented sandy hook is an armed guard....

as abhorrent as that may be.

note..........i said could as in possible.........not an absolute.....
Dave Kos

Trad climber
Temecula
Dec 21, 2012 - 11:34pm PT
The emperor in Star Wars was pretty old.

Evil can live a long time.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Dec 21, 2012 - 11:37pm PT
Jingy writes:

"The NRA says there should be a cop in every school with a gun….
LaPieair didn't mention who was going to pay all those cops…
And don't ask the law and order republigoons for any taxes to pay for it"



Paying for it would be easy - it would not cost one extra dollar, if our dollars were spent intelligently.

Right now in California, cops, sheriffs, CHP, prison guards, and parole officers are able to retire at fifty years old with 90% of their pay as their pension.

Instead of retiring at fifty, cops, CHP, etc. should be re-assaigned to school security - at 90% of their former pay - when they turn fifty, and be required to work until they're 67 before retiring.


A better idea would be to just get rid of mass assembly style schooling, and school the kids at home.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Dec 21, 2012 - 11:51pm PT
You can still have public education.

But instead of gathering all the kids together at school, you send the education to the kids in their homes.

Kids don't have to sit within sight of the chalkboard or within earshot of the teacher anymore if you take advantage of modern media delivery methods - such as DVD and internet - and educate the kids right where they live.

monolith

climber
albany,ca
Dec 21, 2012 - 11:52pm PT
Let society go to hell, we can do everything from our bunkers.
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Dec 21, 2012 - 11:55pm PT
I want hand grenades. Wal Mart is close and convenient.

We are tearing apart our nukes at a frightening pace. That is a damn waste of good money. I think that we should have a tactical nuke at every school.

Seriously, I am a hunting rifle owner, and I need two or three bullets per year max. Others enjoy just shooting stuff up, and that is all fine, but the NRA has gone fullblown batshit crazy.

I fell asleep on the couch with one of the Sportsmen channels on, and kept having this recurring dream as I slept. I woke up and realized that the NRA was playing this 30 minute piece about how if we sign an agreement with the U.N. it will take our guns away. They were comparing Obama to some of histories great tyrants, and were saying that if he won the election he would have us be invaded by U.N. troops.

U.N. TROOPS? DOES ANYONE REALIZE HOW INEPT U.N. TROOPS ARE? First, they are donated in small quantities from other nations. They don't have a bunch of bases and good weapons. U.N. troops are the guys in white APC's and blue helmets who don't get to carry ammo.

Me and my wife could get rid of U.N. troops.

What planet does LaPierre live on? The NRA used to be pretty normal. Now they might as well hire Ted Nugent as the next president.

And like I said, I own guns. Hunting guns, but quite dangerous and locked up.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Dec 21, 2012 - 11:56pm PT
To all you limp dicked gun nutter Rambo-ettes proposing arming schools** GO F*#K YOUR SELVES!**
Keep your whack nut crazy assed sh#t and your guns out of my country's schools. How many of you have kids in school? How many of youare teachers or are/were married to teachers. Your ignorance and arrogance disgusts me.
Columbine had an armed gaurd how did that work out?
photo not found
Missing photo ID#167636
McHale's Navy

Trad climber
Panorama City, California & living in Seattle
Dec 21, 2012 - 11:59pm PT
What's interesting is that NRA chieftan blames the media for sensationalizing these types of shootings but yet he himself buys into the whole hysteria thing saying we need to arm everyone. It's all just a little disgusting.
The Warbler

climber
the edge of America
Dec 22, 2012 - 12:15am PT
You can still have public education.

But instead of gathering all the kids together at school, you send the education to the kids in their homes.

You gotta be joking!


"gathering all the kids together at school" is half the education, if not more. How are kids going to learn to interact with their peers in a healthy way if they don't learn with a variety of other kids?

And what are the parents of these kids who learn at home, rather than in school, going to do for the day? Quit their jobs to watch their kids? Hire nannies?

I suppose all nannies should be armed too, cuz you just can't be too paranoid...

WTF is wrong with republicon minds? Why do they all think like this?


TREED

Trad climber
Gunks
Dec 22, 2012 - 12:25am PT
Would anyone here, who have children, be ok with Ron Anderson, or cragman being armed at your kids school?
Pretty much sums it up right there.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Dec 22, 2012 - 12:35am PT
WTF is wrong with republicon minds? Why do they all think like this?

Because fear mongering has a well proven track record of profitability.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Dec 22, 2012 - 12:42am PT
There are plenty of stupid pills to go around.

5000 threads later there is still precious little critical thinking... I wonder if it's always been this way.

A horrendous act happened, very similar in nature to recent horrendous acts.

Rather than stopping and actually thinking logically, the sheeple on both sides simply react. The ones who fear black sticks that go bang blame the big scary magazines. "Assault Rifle" sounds scary too. Go with that. Only the 'police' need scary things like that.

The other side calls for more guns, more Iraqi-esque green-zones to be set up at Sunny Days Elementary. Shoot the perps in the head. Those f'ing crazies! Make a daterbase of 'crazies' too... Yeah, that'll do it.

Emotion rules the day, and then the week, maybe the whole month. Thinking is either impossible for the masses or suspended.

Both sides hurl insults and use little dead kids as punctuation for their remarks. Libtards, gun-nuts, etc... Pictures of phalluses are introduced. Everyone has to be lumped into little tribes and teams their small brains can grasp and probe.

Fascinating.

Laws will be passed based on said emotions. Their content mattering not a bit. The government doing what it does... Growing like a cancer and seizing more power.

All the while, the next guy, maybe in Hackensack, NJ, who is about to snap is watching TV about drones accidentally killing 4, maybe 5 "brown" people in Afghanistan. Ooops. He pops a Lexipro. Maybe a valium tonight too.

The keys for his Mobil tanker fuel truck accidentally get knocked to the floor.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Dec 22, 2012 - 12:49am PT
Columbine had an armed gaurd how did that work out?

You make a good point, we need two armed guards. Added benefit, if one guard goes postal the other can shoot him, like the plan they had for officers in the missile silos.

Wait, maybe we need three armed guards, yeah, thats right, three armed guards.

The cost, minor detail, with 130,000 k-12 schools the cost would be 9.1 billion dollars, assuming a cost of 70k per guard (includes cost of benefits, we want happy guards right). Hmm, seems low, oh, my bad, that is for one guard per school, 27 billion dollars for three guards. Oh, and read my lips, no new taxes.
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Reno, Nuh VAAAA duh
Dec 22, 2012 - 12:49am PT
Go easy fear, we're just a bunch of slightly evolved chimpanzees you know.

edit:
You make a good point, we need two armed guards. Added benefit, if one guard goes postal the other can shoot him, like the plan they had for officers in the missile silos.

Wait, maybe we need three armed guards, yeah, thats right, three armed guards.

The cost, minor detail, with 130,000 k-12 schools the cost would be 9.1 billion dollars, assuming a cost of 70k per guard (includes cost of benefits, we want happy guards right). Hmm, seems low, oh, my bad, that is for one guard per school, 27 billion dollars for three guards. Oh, and read my lips, no new taxes.


Hahahaha... good stuff.

I was just thinking along similar lines. You get some PTSD Marine in there armed to the teeth and next thing you know you have a highly trained ex-military personnel wreaking carnage. Probably unfair, but is this how we want kids to grow up? Like they're in a third world country?

Oh yeah, I forgot that conservatives bowing to their corporate masters want just that. They'll bring jobs back from overseas once they've driven the American worker to the point where they are working for rupees.
nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Dec 22, 2012 - 01:03am PT
The beauty of the NRA's statement today is it will backfire on them. No pun intended.

you'd think they'd figure out how to appear smart enough to show they were willing and able to engage in a meaningful conversation. But todays statement clearly shows they are not. Guarding our schools with armed guards is beyond stupid. It shows a complete disconnect with those that are not NRA members (read, most of the country).

That disconnect comes as no surprise.

Further if you think that everyone should carry you also clearly show a disconnect with the country as a whole. Most want nothing to do with guns. It's a ridiculous "solution" to a major problem.

Stay disconnected I guess....

So the result I think will be is in another week or two there will be some other mass shooting (maybe the NRA will get lucky and it'll be a month or more) and the discussion or rhetoric will continue. I certainly don't wish that but let's be real. We all know there are people out there that watched this latest mass shooting and want to one-up that psycho. It's only going to get worse before it gets better.

I suspect those advocating for restrictions on guns will start to really organize and make a statement/difference. This latest event is galvanizing those of us that realize something has to change. One the other side the brain damaged NRA is advocating for turning our schools into reverse-prisons.

Y'all really think that'll turn the conversation into something constructive?
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Dec 22, 2012 - 10:56am PT
The fact that more people aren't already aware is pretty scary.
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Dec 22, 2012 - 10:59am PT
Fear is correct...
Ricky

climber
Sometimes LA
Dec 22, 2012 - 11:07am PT

Only slightly better than Ron Anderson armed outside your child's school:

http://www.mercedsunstar.com/2012/12/20/2717641/marine-veteran-outside-hughson.html


tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Dec 22, 2012 - 11:26am PT
Rather than stopping and actually thinking logically, the sheeple on both sides simply react.

Fear said what I have been wondering about for a long time. The difference between Canada and the US.




You have sides. Either one side or the other is in power, but everyone is on a side and after 5000 posts, you can't leave your sides and display critical thinking and solve issues. You are very representative of your country as a whole. If it came down to it (and it has in the past) you simply shoot the citizens 'on the other side' until one side declares victory.



In Canada, we have political hot button topics, but everyone is first and foremost a Canadian. All the finger pointing ends up pointed at the government - a largely detached and independent entity in society led by the fact that we had the Queen as head of state for so long. We just don't have the kind of hateful destructive arguments as a country as a whole over issues because when we differ on opinions we point our fingers at the government, not at each other.

In the US, the republicans are responsible for the NRA, guns are responsible for mass killings, and therefore Ron is responsible for these school kids.


A decade of watching this phenomenon in each country and I've finally figured it out!
The Warbler

climber
the edge of America
Dec 22, 2012 - 12:11pm PT
Lawrence O'Donnell doesn't like the NRA, and especially its CEO


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/22/lawrence-odonnell-nra-lapierre_n_2349965.html

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 22, 2012 - 12:28pm PT
For

private gun ownership
mandatory public service or military
harder driver's license tests
decriminalization of drug possession
more pay for cops and teachers
restoring public land (no grazing, wild horses or burros)


Against

welfare/nanny state
uneducated liptards having a vote
idiots that mishandle firearms
litterbugs and vandals
property tax (you want services? Pay for 'em)
censorship of nudity rather than violence
people that have kids but don't want to spend the time and effort to raise them properly!




So tooth, I am a libertarian. Do I really have to choose a side? Why can't I just sit in the bleachers and watch the game?
tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Dec 22, 2012 - 12:30pm PT
Toker, if I were in the bleachers at your game (in your country), I'd have a gun in my pocket.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 22, 2012 - 12:40pm PT
Glad to see me?
tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Dec 22, 2012 - 12:48pm PT
Ha ha!












No.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Dec 22, 2012 - 12:54pm PT
instead of BILLIONS to places such as AFGHANISTAN, PAKISTAN and ANY OTHER STAN,, why dont we put that money into making our schools safer..
Salamanizer

Trad climber
The land of Fruits & Nuts!
Dec 22, 2012 - 01:08pm PT
Because that would make sense, the government isn't in the business of making sense. Now if it made more cents, that would be a different story.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Dec 22, 2012 - 01:12pm PT
Tru Dat Sal!..

Our EGO MANIACAL govt is to busy attempting to be some friggin "WORLD POWER" whilst stepping on the backs of ALL THEIR OWN people.

Yeah we will GIVE MONIES we dont even have to third world countries that do nothing but act as an enemy but solving our own problems like SCHOOL SAFETY fall right off their "bills".....

IMPEACH AND FIRE THEM ALL..
Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
Dec 22, 2012 - 01:23pm PT
nstead of BILLIONS to places such as AFGHANISTAN, PAKISTAN and ANY OTHER STAN,, why dont we put that money into making our schools safer..


Great idea

Better yet... spend all those billions giving our people a better education with better mental health services, and then there wouldn't be any need for armed guards at schools.

Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Dec 22, 2012 - 01:23pm PT
Paying for it would be easy - it would not cost one extra dollar, if our dollars were spent intelligently.

Right now in California, cops, sheriffs, CHP, prison guards, and parole officers are able to retire at fifty years old with 90% of their pay as their pension.

Instead of retiring at fifty, cops, CHP, etc. should be re-assaigned to school security - at 90% of their former pay - when they turn fifty, and be required to work until they're 67 before retiring.


A better idea would be to just get rid of mass assembly style schooling, and school the kids at home.

 I'm torn… Sounds like a great way to pay for the cops that the NRA are calling for and a great way to save taxpayers money…. The other side of my brains says "Chaz said key words that don't seem to have any value to a certain ideological political group that is hell bent on getting rid of government…. a political party with a proven track record of shady spending of any taxes given to them."

So I don't trust it will happen the way that is stated by chaz, though I commend him for making the clearly thought out statement
zBrown

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Dec 22, 2012 - 01:28pm PT
Simple two-step program.

Buy them back.

Tax the ones who want to keep them and the manufacturers, in order to pay for all the additional protection they require in society.

Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Dec 22, 2012 - 01:42pm PT
nstead of BILLIONS to places such as AFGHANISTAN, PAKISTAN and ANY OTHER STAN,,


Like the Tribal regions of Nevadastan for instance
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Dec 22, 2012 - 01:43pm PT
Well,, Nevadastan IS in the USA...And it is ALSO a state that GIVES more than it gets..
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Dec 22, 2012 - 01:45pm PT
No foreign power will ever subject Nevadastan. The terrain is treacherous, there is no food for an invading army, and the natives are armed and dangerous.

edit: I'm sure Nevadastan is a net giver of venereal diseases.

edit: My wrong, Nevadastan has an enlightened posistion on prostitution. It is regulated so it is safer for everyone. Now if they would just do that with guns.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Dec 22, 2012 - 02:00pm PT
No food?? R U KIDDING?? We have enough free roaming horses to feed an army for years..;-)
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Dec 22, 2012 - 02:01pm PT
photo not found
Missing photo ID#279870


Vegas has Lattes.
locker

Social climber
state of Kumbaya...
Dec 22, 2012 - 02:02pm PT

"We have enough free roaming horses to feed an army for years.."...

Hope you like eating, LEATHER...

LOL!!!...


EDITED:

I'm thinking at least a case of ADOLFS...



donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Dec 22, 2012 - 02:04pm PT
It's a damn good thing that Nevadastan didn't go blue during the Bush Occupation. They would have invaded despite the inherent risks.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 22, 2012 - 02:05pm PT
Nevadastan has no oil, but it does have precious metals with which to buy oil.

So it is only a matter of time before an imperial power takes it and builds large military bases that you cannot fly over.

Just a matter of time.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Dec 22, 2012 - 02:07pm PT
JD,,we just use ME tactics and seek to blend. ;-)


and Locker,, Horse is not bad at all.. Delicacy in some countries.

Rump roast of Mr Ed man! Much better than chewing on tough ol jack wabbit. And tastier than BUGS...



Yes, Nevadastan be rich in minerals and much much more. From salt to gold, gypsum to tungsten, and all points in between! What invaders WOULDNT want to conquer the great basin state? The rural nature on Nevadastan alone has invited a host of invaders. And it is very safe to say that its those invaders that cause the most havoc here.
locker

Social climber
state of Kumbaya...
Dec 22, 2012 - 02:09pm PT


"and Locker,, Horse is not bad at all.."...


I agree!!!...

I had a Horse Burger and it was pretty good...

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 22, 2012 - 02:09pm PT
So horsemeat doesn't give you the galloping runs?
locker

Social climber
state of Kumbaya...
Dec 22, 2012 - 02:11pm PT

For some reason I did find myself always gravitating towards home...

Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Dec 22, 2012 - 02:13pm PT
thats because you ate an ol barn-soured nag. ;-)

And yes TV,, i hear the first meals may be a wee rich for yur average consumer. Side effects MAY inlcude: Nausea, vomiting, explosive shatting, Gas, Bowel churning, Pin worm infection to the brain, Lethargic symptoms, Rashes, fever and death.. Please seek a physician or lawyer if the latter.
locker

Social climber
state of Kumbaya...
Dec 22, 2012 - 02:15pm PT

^^^

LOL!!!...

Glad you caught my STUPID joke...

Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
Dec 22, 2012 - 02:16pm PT
Simple two-step program.

Buy them back.

Tax the ones who want to keep them and the manufacturers, in order to pay for all the additional protection they require in society.

Brilliant concept, but it won't work, either. Similar tactics have been attempted for tobacco, etc.

Look how many decades it took to get tobacco companies to pay? Now what do you think is the likelihood that the government will be able to able to get gun manufacturers to pay?

Increasing the tax on an item has been PROVEN to reduce consumption. A consumption tax has been proposed on everything for cigarettes to gasoline, alcohol, Big Macs, and everything else that is "bad" for you and results in significant cost to society.

We can't even get a nickle deposit added to soda cans. Lobbyists have blocked all other consumption taxes. Can you imagine trying to get a tax on guns?

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 22, 2012 - 02:19pm PT
Looking at that photo I don't see a single AR.

Nothing but cheap POS.
Wonder what it cost.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Dec 22, 2012 - 02:22pm PT
wonder how many guys are buying up all those Davis guns for like fiddy bucks selling them back for 200.00??
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Dec 22, 2012 - 03:39pm PT
Well,, Nevadastan IS in the USA...And it is ALSO a state that GIVES more than it gets..

Debatable. What isn't debatable is the fact that Nevadastan is a dry dusty desert populated with sparsely scattered enclaves of firecely proud primitive tribals that cling to their guns and religion.

Oh yeah then there's Las Vegas, that is a bit like the Green Zone of Kabul.


And lets not get started on Arizonastan
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Dec 22, 2012 - 03:43pm PT
Oh god no not Arizonastan. Please don't start talking about Arizonastan.
Not until the drones are fully deployed.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Dec 22, 2012 - 03:48pm PT
Vegas the "green zone" ???





BAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAaaaoooooooeeeeeeeelordy..



Thanks for that laugh man!!!
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Dec 22, 2012 - 03:51pm PT
OK Ron I grant you that was a bit of a stretch about Vegas.

But I notice you don't dispute the rest?
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Dec 22, 2012 - 03:55pm PT
well, in fact,, most of its is HIGH desert with a lot f alpine and sub alpine zones. I know a tiny hidden creek in a canyon that appears to be a dry dusty desert, that once in unfolds into a gorgeous tree infested place and so many brookies in the creek its black with them in spots. Theres about two hundred thousand other canyons with much the same.

Tribal? Yes, and with the sprawl of wilderness living here, guns are the only way to ensure safety as LEOS might be two hours away.

Much like the taxidermists i know in BC. They are out a ways from civilized Law.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Dec 22, 2012 - 03:56pm PT
Plus the place is crawling with bugeaters.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Dec 22, 2012 - 04:00pm PT
BAHAHAHA! Thats what my Washoe and Paiute friends ALWAYS say to each other!

Washoe to Piaute : Bahhh yur tribe was all bugeaters,, we had all the FISH and DEER! We only let the QUIUI suckers down the river cuz they tasted like crap!
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Dec 22, 2012 - 04:02pm PT
I don't think it is a stupid pill problem.
More like a G-Spot.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Dec 22, 2012 - 04:10pm PT
Tahoe lobsters on EVEREST another FIRST!!!
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 23, 2012 - 10:17am PT
Wayne LaPierre on Meet The Depressed right now.

David Gregory doesn't want to listen.
Same old litany.
Psilocyborg

climber
Dec 23, 2012 - 04:29pm PT
If you think either outlawing weapons or having armed guards at schools will solve anything you are stupid. Stupid stupid stupid.

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 23, 2012 - 04:37pm PT
^ding ding
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Reno, Nuh VAAAA duh
Dec 23, 2012 - 04:42pm PT
Awesome argument. Oh, wait, there was no argument. Stupid stupid stupid.

I see an argument for very late term abortions ;).
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Dec 23, 2012 - 04:46pm PT
No guns allowed at NRA meetings

NRA meetings are a gun free zone? Didn't the gun nutters decide that gun free zones are very dangerous places?
Dave Kos

Trad climber
Temecula
Dec 23, 2012 - 04:48pm PT
No guns allowed at NRA meetings

Can someone confirm this?

Cuz if it is true, they got some splainin' to do.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Dec 23, 2012 - 04:56pm PT
I'm guessing it stems from this event: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/josh-sugarmann/nra-annual-meeting-no-gun_b_576680.html

The National Rifle Association's annual meeting is this weekend and it's a galaxy of pro-gun stars!

Sarah Palin!

Glenn Beck!

Newt Gringrich!

Ollie North!

Oh, and no guns.

Yes, in this celebration of all things that go bang, each of these NRA-sanctioned speakers will be offering their address before a crowd of disarmed gun enthusiasts.

On its website, the NRA warns:

North Carolina State law prohibits the carrying of firearms in the Charlotte Convention Center, and the Time Warner Cable Arena. In addition, the Rules and Regulations of the Charlotte Convention Center prohibit the carrying of firearms in the Center. Pursuant to Time Warner Cable Arena policy, all individuals entering the Arena will be subject to a magnetometer security check.
To think that you'd have to suffer the indignity of going through a metal detector to hear someone proselytize about your right to carry your gun anywhere you want is easy irony.

So why is the NRA allowing their leadership, their membership, and their special guests--even NRA board member Ted Nugent, yes, even the Nuge!--to be forced to undergo the indignity of being stripped of their guns with little more than a whimper?

Well, because to do otherwise would frankly be nuts.

And despite complaints lodged on pro-gun message boards, the NRA knows this. And I'm willing to bet that the rationale offered by Ken at NRA headquarters isn't very satisfying to most concealed and open-carry fans:

Thank you for contacting us.

The Charlotte Convention Center does not allow the carrying of firearms, both open and concealed.

The large size of our event and the fact that many of the largest convention centers are in some of the most restrictive cities leaves us with relatively few convention centers large enough to accommodate the Annual Meetings. In an effort to provide all NRA members a better opportunity to attend the Annual Meetings, it is important that we move the event around the country as much as possible. While we will not consider bringing the Annual Meetings to a city with gun laws we feel are restrictive, we must however deal with convention centers that have restrictions simply because there are so few convention centers that both allow conceal carry and are large enough to host all of the events that comprise the Annual Meetings.

Thank you for your support!

Best Regards,

Ken
NRA Member Communications

Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Dec 23, 2012 - 05:05pm PT
If you think either outlawing weapons or having armed guards at schools will solve anything you are stupid. Stupid stupid stupid.


Who ever said anything about banning guns? We just want to regulate the fukin' hell out of them like most civilized cultures.
Dave Kos

Trad climber
Temecula
Dec 23, 2012 - 05:18pm PT
Thanks HighDesertDJ,

So it's the facility that the NRA uses for their meetings that doesn't allow guns.

Not as ironic as I'd hoped it to be.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Dec 23, 2012 - 05:39pm PT
Actually, I thought Pulp Fiction was a piece of crap, well overrated, like most of Tarantino's rubbish. I did like the Tim Roth restaurant scene, and I thought that Bruce Willis was fine in his cameo. But John Revolta and Jackson suck. Though Jackson is a good actor, but Vinnie Revolta, no I guess I just don't get it.

And Donald, you certainly have lived down to my expectations.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 23, 2012 - 05:42pm PT
If there was a big enough convention center in a more gun favoring legal climate they would doubtless use it.

The SHOT Show was only 165,000 people and used The Sands.
I've never seen so many guns in one place, maybe 50,000 on cable tethers so you could dry fire them.



Edit;
I took down the SHOT Show photos. I've shown them before.
People are turning so ugly that it is easy to lose sight of core issues and respond in kind.

One would be people showing respect.

Emilie Parker was laid to rest yesterday in her home town of Ogden (that of her parents, Jello too).
Hundreds of residents lined the street in the cold.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Dec 23, 2012 - 05:43pm PT
Hey Toker, still masturbating over the show. Oh come on, have a sense of humor, you asked for such a comment.
TwistedCrank

climber
Dingleberry Gulch, Ideeho
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 23, 2012 - 05:44pm PT
Yeah. Those look like some useful guns. Yup.
happiegrrrl

Trad climber
www.climbaddictdesigns.com
Dec 23, 2012 - 05:47pm PT
So now I know there is a BushMaster gun and also, from photo above, a ManLicker(sic). Have to wonder who is coming up with these brand names!
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Dec 23, 2012 - 06:46pm PT
Happi,

Most of the names are taken from the person who created the design.

Mannlicher, as you mentioned, was the manufacturer of the rifle used to kill John F Kennedy.
Chewybacca

Trad climber
Montana, Whitefish
Dec 23, 2012 - 06:54pm PT
Some of us are terrible shots. I NEED a rapid fire weapon and massive clip so I can kill Bambi.


The smaller the Pee Pee, the bigger the gun needed to compensate. Where's my howitzer? ;^}
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Dec 23, 2012 - 06:56pm PT
Charles Whitman is the UTA Sniper.

From Wiki:

"Whitman sawed off the barrel of the 12-gauge shotgun, and packed the weapon, together with a Remington 700 6mm bolt-action hunting rifle, into his footlocker. The footlocker also held a 6mm bolt-action hunting rifle, a .35 caliber pump rifle, a .30 caliber carbine, a 9mm Luger pistol, a Galesi-Brescia .25-caliber pistol and a Smith & Wesson M19 .357 Magnum revolver, and over 700 rounds of ammunition."



BTW, you can still find bullet holes in the areas around the tower (limestone I think)
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 23, 2012 - 07:25pm PT
Wasn't Whitman found to have a large brain tumor?

And Mannlicher designed the bolt. Carcano manufactured the 6.5mm that Oswald used.
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Dec 23, 2012 - 07:37pm PT
And Mannlicher designed the bolt. Carcano manufactured the 6.5mm that Oswald used.

who the hell cares about who manufactured what?

What do you think of Nortons observations on George Washington and the @nd amendment?
happiegrrrl

Trad climber
www.climbaddictdesigns.com
Dec 23, 2012 - 08:57pm PT
who the hell cares about who manufactured what?

He was simply correcting what he felt or knew was misinformation posted earlier. Maybe that is more his area of expertise than Constitutional Law and the interpretation of that.

Maybe we should be pretty thankful right now that the area of expertise of our President IS Constitutional Law.....
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Dec 23, 2012 - 09:02pm PT
Did that gun show have those handy little hand sanitizer dispensers?
I mean to wipe the sticky stuff off.
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Dec 23, 2012 - 09:12pm PT
I've no doubt Ron knows his weapons well, but that is the easy stuff.

My point is why even bother with the minutiae of dull technical detail when the only thing of relevance is how many rounds of death you can squeeze off per minute? That being the determining factor for what gets banned and what gets registered / licenced / insured / etc.

That and determining the true meaning and intent of the 2nd amendment?

I think i know the answer to that but if its the answer I'm thinking of it deserves a quick death.

Figuratively speaking of course.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Dec 23, 2012 - 09:21pm PT
Toker V. writes:

"And Mannlicher designed the bolt. Carcano manufactured the 6.5mm that Oswald used."


Don't confuse the middle school kids with facts, Ron. Beavis and Butthead are having too much fun giggling at "ManLicker" right now.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Dec 23, 2012 - 09:32pm PT
The tribe/team concept is very strong with the Sheeple.

If you like firearms then you're a gun-nut and obviously in league with the NRA.

Everyone just has to fit into a nice tiny box so we can hate and ridicule rather than fixing anyone.

Republican, Democrat, Gun-nut, Libtard, etc...

Why does anyone hate that Wayne/NRA character? Because he made a stupid suggestion? So what? The other side is making equally stupid suggestions. Who cares what the NRA suggests? Who cares what the US government suggests?

NEITHER HAVE OUR BEST INTERESTS IN MIND.

Read that again.

I was watching someone grill that Wayne guy in an interview. The host was practically dripping with venom. You could see him just seething with hate like he had Hitler and Ted Bundy in the hotseat. I don't know this Wayne from anyone else but he seemed like typical corporate deadwood like you'd find in any boardroom across the US.

When something tragic and horrible happens the Sheeple demand an instant answer so they can have the illusion of "safety" again. They are typically incapable of rational thought or simple problem solving. So main stream media whips everything up into a frenzy. Today's sacrificial goat? Wayne Lapierre? Really? Who the f*#k is he?

And yet, nobody focuses on the issue because that would be too difficult. We have to apparently have someone to hate and BLAME, preferably a group of people we can hate. The NRA, "gun nuts", the evil Government, the NWO, Bushmaster, pick one.

It must be just assumed young males are now going to go on random murderous sprees with no manifestos. That "just happens".

Just a clue. Obama, the US government, the NRA, Wayne L., have nothing to do with this problem, or the solution.

But it won't matter now, the wooly folds have taken their sides of the pasture intent on fighting each other.

Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Dec 23, 2012 - 09:48pm PT
How do you figure?

By being the largest gun safety promoter in the country?
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Dec 23, 2012 - 09:50pm PT
How many guns do you own, jghedge?
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Dec 23, 2012 - 09:52pm PT
So you're un-armed, then.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Dec 23, 2012 - 09:57pm PT
I like these guys with no first hand firearm ownership experience, who, using nothing but their immagination, claim to know why others do own firearms.

No experience, no knowledge, but your uninformed opinion is supposed to matter the same as someone who has both knowledge and experience.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Dec 23, 2012 - 10:00pm PT
Toadgas, look up Eddie Eagle.
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Dec 23, 2012 - 10:02pm PT
I'm not going to get into the gun debate in much detail. I own guns. I know people who have taken the AR platform and created some outstanding hunting guns. I will say that there are a lot of people out there who like playing Navy Seal, and spend a lot of money on guns with no real use, unless you believe that the frail United Nations is going to take over the country under Obama's invitation. The NRA actually believes this.

The NRA actually believes that Obama is going to flood the country with U.N. troops to take over America. How do I know this? Because I left the tube on in the other room one night, tuned to one of the Sportsmen hunting channels. All night long they played the same thirty minute infomercial that was pretty much just nuts. The NRA had gone Ted Nugent insane. It isn't about teaching gun safety like when I was a kid, it actually makes outrageous claims.

Hey, if we are gonna be invaded by the U.N. you are gonna see their asses kicked, because U.N. troops consist entirely of small contributions from various countries around the world. They rarely get in a real fight. They are only good for trying to save people from genocide in Africa and attempting to stop ethnic cleansing in the Balkans. They failed at both. In Africa, the bloodshed was unchecked. In the Balkans, the U.S. had to take over and bomb the sh#t out of Serbia's infrastructure. The U.N. is a pitiful organization for military force. Compared to being invaded by Canada or Mexico, I would far prefer the U.N. They would go down in two weeks because they are so weak.

Nevertheless, LaPierre was right there in these crazy infomercials, just like a new and gun laden Jim Jones, preaching a right wing gospel that really had nothing to do with gun safety.

I am one that believes that gun problems are extremely region specific. Alaskans who live in the interior would starve without guns, even the crazy ones. Even the AR platform has been around so long that they are now regularly tweaked as fer real hunting platforms. This, of course, has no purpose in inner city Chicago.

It is a social problem. I don't think it is a gun problem. Personally, I don't like guns which are only designed to kill people, like high mag capacity handguns or AK-47's in the hands of gangs. Others like a high capacity mag on their conceal carry licensed pistol, just in case they are met with a criminal. OK, I don't see them as much of a risk.

The fact remains that the NRA has indeed gone Ted Nugent batshit crazy over guns. They serve the gun industry, who likes to sell their products, and limitations on certain things like super high capacity magazines piss off the gun dealers and manufacturers.

Do you know who is one of the biggest arms traffickers in the world? Us.

The old NRA is gone. Now they are a mouthpiece for the extreme right, and posit extreme theories about arming yourself to the teeth to defeat an imaginary foe, no matter that coming up with a credible foe is impossible.

So La Pierre is an awful spokesman for them. Because he is crazy and needs to go on the list. He is obviously crazy. Crazies should not own weapons, he said it himself.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Dec 23, 2012 - 10:24pm PT
Similarly to the so-called fiscal cliff, Obama simply needs to push through a revived ban on assault weapons and similar things, together with the restrictions agreed to even by a vast majority of NRA members, then push it through a court challenge. Get the supreme court to finally rule on what the second amendment actually means - that is to say, that it almost certainly gives both state and federal governments reasonable powers to regulate the manufacture, sale, ownership and use of firearms by individuals. The leadership of the NRA and its business backers is scared stiff of that happening - well, actually they're generally frightened people, pushing an agenda of fear.

NRA Members Agree: More Gun Regulation Makes Sense

1. Requiring criminal background checks on gun owners and gun shop employees. 87 percent of non-NRA gun-owners and 74 percent of NRA gun owners support the former, and 80 percent and 79 percent, respectively, endorse the latter.

2. Prohibiting terrorist watch list members from acquiring guns. Support ranges from 80 percent among non-NRA gun-owners to 71 percent among NRA members.

3. Mandating that gun-owners tell the police when their gun is stolen. 71 percent non-NRA gun-owners support this measure, as do 64 percent of NRA members.

4. Concealed carry permits should only be restricted to individuals who have completed a safety training course and are 21 and older. 84 percent of non-NRA and 74 percent of NRA member gun-owners support the safety training restriction, and the numbers are 74 percent and 63 percent for the age restriction.

5. Concealed carry permits shouldn’t be given to perpetrators of violent misdemeanors or individuals arrested for domestic violence. The NRA/non-NRA gun-owner split on these issues is 81 percent and 75 percent in favor of the violent misdemeanors provision and 78 percent/68 percent in favor of the domestic violence restriction.

http://thinkprogress.org/election/2012/07/24/577091/nra-members-agree-regulating-guns-makes-sense/?mobile=nc
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Dec 23, 2012 - 10:35pm PT
MH, Just about all of your list is already state or federal law.


You are twice as likely to be pummeled to death by bare fists and feet than die via any long gun, including the scarey black ones.

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2010/crime-in-the-u.s.-2010/tables/10shrtbl08.xls
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Dec 23, 2012 - 10:39pm PT
The list quoted is simply the restrictions that NRA members themselves agree to, and no doubt they'd consent to others. They're not so fanatic as their widely-mocked 'leadership'. Some of them would surely even agree to a ban on assault rifles and related weapons, which should be the centrepiece of what Obama proposes, together with uniform federal regulation, and reasonable measures for phasing assault weapons out, e.g. a buy-back program.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Dec 23, 2012 - 10:44pm PT
That list is all common sense, but notice it is all about keeping guns out of the hands of the wrong people, not doing away with the wrong guns.

You'll be hard pressed to craft a law banning any kind of gun that will be supported by the NRA.
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Reno, Nuh VAAAA duh
Dec 23, 2012 - 10:45pm PT
When only outlaws have guns, the police will shoot the outlaws.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 23, 2012 - 10:47pm PT
Yeah, TGT , I was just going to point that out to Anders.

Base 104's invasion of the smurfs scenario is not realistic, however using the unabashedly anti-gun ownership platform of the UN as an excuse to be part of the gang is.

For the first time in man's history (and that of this country) more humans live in cities than rural areas. The demographic is changing and firearms are becoming more of a foreign tool to the population.
The anti-gun crowd is attempting to use this to erode piecemeal gun rights. On this much I agree with some of the more strident voices here.

Overall I hope that they fail.
But if the type of "ban" that they tried two decades ago comes back I stand to make a $hitpile of $.
Win/ win.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 23, 2012 - 10:52pm PT
Well Anders already answered. I wish he would define assault weapon.

The gun owners that would ban defense weapons because they only own hunting pieces are a myopic judases (judasses? judi?), the exceptions used to "prove" the rule.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Dec 23, 2012 - 10:57pm PT
Nice attempt to redefine the debate. It won't work.

The gun owners that would ban defense weapons because they only own hunting pieces are a myopic judases (judasses? judi?), the exceptions used to "prove" the rule.

We're talking about assault weapons, not defence weapons. Nobody said anything about banning ordinary rifles, shotguns, and pistols. Reasonable regulation as to their acquisition and ownership, no more. The 1994 statute did a reasonable job of defining them, although it could perhaps be improved. Severely restricting assault rifles and such is quite another question.

Are those gun-owners who are in favour of prohibitions on public ownership of machine guns, cannon, bazookas, recoiless rifles, and other heavier weapons then also judases? Even you're smart enough to agree that there are many gun-like weapons that the public shouldn't be able to own, and has no legitimate reason to own. It's just a matter of where the line is drawn, isn't it? And it's been drawn far too permissively.
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Dec 23, 2012 - 10:57pm PT
I said it before, but gun laws make differing sense in differing areas.

Even a crazy guy needs a gun just to eat in interior Alaska. Yeah you can buy store food. If you want to go broke.

I have hung out with a fair number of eskimos and even further south. Those guys love the AR platform and the .223 with a fat clip for bears.

They take down grizzlies with those things. They certainly kill caribou and moose.

I read a book about one guy who would kill caribou with a .22. He would always go for a neck shot and multiple rounds. It actually worked if he was close.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Dec 23, 2012 - 11:00pm PT
Any "assault" weapon ban should apply to police weapons, too.

Not that we ever think we are going to go up against the police, that'd be suicide stupid.

But the "assault" weapon ban should apply to cops too because it is never the job of the police to assault citizens. Cops are armed in order to defend themselves.

Cops should only be allowed to carry / possess Defense Weapons. Weapons only capable of self defense, and useless for assault.

Responsible Citizens should be allowed access to the same weapons.

Glocks and AR's seem to be what the cops like.

Jebus H Bomz

climber
Reno, Nuh VAAAA duh
Dec 23, 2012 - 11:01pm PT
In reality, I believe if we stick with guns, there should be widespread gun education. I'd even tentatively agree with Piton Ron's suggestion citizens should do a public service of some sort for their country, it beats the hell out of what I was doing the first couple of years out of high school.

If we go for guns, take the fear out of it borne from ignorance and put personal responsibility for our country back into the enterprise such that we aren't making threats bordering on sedition because of disloyal outrage.

So many people are simply unable to cope with any deviation in their vision of what the world should be, quickly escalating their rhetoric to threats and widespread fear. Our country needs to toughen the f*#k up and the people need to stop expecting it all for nothing. No, you don't get an awesome country by dodging your taxes. No, your life will not be worth a sh#t when your sole aspiration is to suck from the welfare nipple, whether that teat is pumping public assistance or corporate bailouts.

I don't like the gun nut rhetoric, but I don't feel a knee jerk the other way is gonna get it done either.

I do, of course, enjoy trolling the sh#t out of this topic when I can ;).
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 23, 2012 - 11:01pm PT
Nice try Anders, but the primary reason that people own these weapons is for defense, although as has already been pointed out it is possible to make a tack driver out of the AR platform.



Even cops own ARs for defense. I know personally of several cases.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Dec 23, 2012 - 11:03pm PT
I actually hope something like that actually does happen, and soon - the high-definition footage of a wingnut compound disintegrating via Apache, broadcast thousands of times on every news outlet in the world, would collapse the gun industry overnight.

Nice sociopathic rant... you actually want people who you know nothing personally about, but different from you, to die. On TV nonetheless in a hail of Apache gunfire.




Jebus H Bomz

climber
Reno, Nuh VAAAA duh
Dec 23, 2012 - 11:04pm PT
What's wrong with wishing people dead, fear?

Last verified sociopath I heard of was the gun totin' variety, unfortunately for your hyperbole.

Jghedge, the psychic sociopath! F*#k, we gonna persecute him for his sinful thoughts now? You sound like a religious whack job.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 23, 2012 - 11:08pm PT
Anders, right tool for the job.

Inuit use .223 on everything. Its cheap, but for a big bear I'd want a shotgun or .45-70, but taking caribou with a .22lr might not be an ethical kill.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Dec 23, 2012 - 11:10pm PT
But you think the citizens are the enemy of the people?

The cops aren't the only ones dealing with unsavory elements.
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Reno, Nuh VAAAA duh
Dec 23, 2012 - 11:13pm PT
Some citizens are. We certainly aren't well trained professionals adequate to the task of policing ourselves.

The cops aren't the only ones dealing with unsavory elements.

I'd really love to see the stats where you abso-frickin-lutely "need" ARs and the like to do "deal" with these elements. Outside some vigilante movie nonsense, I'd bet a simple six shooter properly deployed is the most anybody needs in the vast majority of self defense situations.

Criminals are lazy cowards by definition, do you really think they are going to continue coming at you in the face of any armed resistance? If you've got some much more serious, sophisticated fellas coming at you, you are probably worm food regardless unless you're some extremely well trained and skilled operator.
wilbeer

Mountain climber
honeoye falls,ny.greeneck alleghenys
Dec 23, 2012 - 11:18pm PT
30% of americans own a gun ,i dont care where you live ,country,city.nobody ,either here or in gov has the balls to put it to a vote.......americans avoiding democracy.just get in line w/the4 million of the nra .theres a plan
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Dec 23, 2012 - 11:21pm PT
You missed the point I was making, jghedge.

Here, hold my hand. I'll walk you through it.



Cops carry weapons for self defense purposes, not to assault people.

Cops are professionals, obviously.

When I'm looking for a tool for a job, the first thing I do is find out what the pros use.

And for self defense, apparently the Glock and the AR are what works.

You want to ban self defense tools? Because that's what you're proposing.

Remember. Not everyone's fourtunate enough to be white, and live in a peaceful neighborhood. For a lot of folks, self defense is more than theory. It's survival.



That wasn't so bad. Now, was it?
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 23, 2012 - 11:24pm PT
Sort of inconvenient that more criminals are shot by civilians than cops.

Every month there is a list of newspaper articles describing justified shootings.
So common it would never make national news.



Shhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Dec 23, 2012 - 11:24pm PT
You know why? That's because citizens are f*#king EVERYWHERE.

Cops are few and far between, especially when you need one.
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Dec 23, 2012 - 11:26pm PT
Exactly Chaz.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 23, 2012 - 11:29pm PT
Hint: It isn't the same thing as self-defense

Cops are allowed to shoot when it is not in defense? Since when?
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Reno, Nuh VAAAA duh
Dec 23, 2012 - 11:33pm PT
That's why there should be more emphasis on education, gun and otherwise, and support afterwards. I know some here would insta-cream their fruit of the looms if they shot somebody down, but others like myself would feel a little bloody handed. Sh#t doesn't go down how it does in the movies, and we're not steely-eyed Clint Eastwood.

My job of the moment is dealing with mentally unstable people, probably why I keep coming to these threads ;). Anyway, the security folk and personnel who are most effective de-escalate situations rather than "pulling the trigger" by doing take downs and the like. If you resort to a firearm, that is a failure to some extent. Unavoidable sometimes for sure, but it should not be seen as the hope, that is a sick, murderous mindset, the kind celebrated in the bushmaster advertisement campaign I'm sure.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Dec 23, 2012 - 11:36pm PT
Then why aren't 12,000 a year dying in the UK, instead of 35?

In part because the population of the UK is about 1/5 of that of the USA. So if the UK has 35 gun murders a year, the USA should proportionately 'only' have 2,400. Something like that, anyway - perhaps there's a crime studier around who could help with this.
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Reno, Nuh VAAAA duh
Dec 23, 2012 - 11:36pm PT
You're right JGHedge. While I support guns, you have to acknowledge the fact there IS a price being paid. If not, you are a liar at the very least to yourself. Without guns you would have less gun deaths. If you don't acknowledge that, you are a fundamentalist to whom facts don't matter. Accept that this is the cost and try to work within that to decrease the toll.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 23, 2012 - 11:37pm PT
Umm..if they see someone shooting/raping/assualting someone else?

Why did you change from "self-defense" to "defense"?

Uh,...... because its still a defensive shooting, just like if they shoot a guy pointing a gun at another cop.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 23, 2012 - 11:43pm PT
Actually civilians can be justified in using lethal force to defend certain other people.








Too much noise, time out for a quality libation.
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Reno, Nuh VAAAA duh
Dec 23, 2012 - 11:51pm PT
So why do all these supposed trad climbers want sport climber guns? Isn't there any pride in the six shooter, really knowing how to do that sh#t ground up cowboy style?

Only one I heard preaching that was KSolem. Trad climbers should have trad guns. Revolvers, lever actions, double barrels. That's all you need, you aren't responding to Heat are you?
Jay Wood

Trad climber
Land of God-less fools
Dec 24, 2012 - 12:05am PT
Studies Re: gun defense in schools



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8QjZY3WiO9s&list=UUlbQJRyYumXUW5hrGjvQNdA&index=9

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLN6_s66wTg
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Dec 24, 2012 - 12:07am PT
By your trad analogy, what should a die-hard aid climber have?

Ice? I've always been partial to old-school double(side by side)12g coach shotguns.

You might be on to something there... Getting slapped in the cheek by those things IS similar to leading WI5 on a cold brittle day. FUN!
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Dec 24, 2012 - 12:10am PT
Wasn't Whitman found to have a large brain tumor?

Piton Ron - initially reports stated Whitman had a tumor, glioblastoma, a type of brain tumor, putting pressure on regions of his brain responsible for the regulation of strong emotions.

Later reports disputed that. I'm no expert. Maybe someone who is can weigh in on this. Even if he did, most folks with brain tumors don't shoot up a bunch of innocents so the role of a tumor (if present) on his behavior seems up to debate imo.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Dec 24, 2012 - 12:22am PT
But the "assault" weapon ban should apply to cops too because it is never the job of the police to assault citizens.

You are seriously crazy. Your crazy thinking led to the shooting of a number of police officers in my community, when they did not have the firepower to deal with TWO guys in body armor who decided to take out a phalanx of cops while robbing a bank:

Local patrol officers at the time were typically armed with their personal 9 mm or .38 Special pistols, with some having a 12-gauge shotgun available in their cars. Phillips and Mătăsăreanu carried illegally modified fully automatic AKMs and an AR-15 rifle with high capacity drum magazines and ammunition capable of penetrating police body armor. They also wore body armor of their own. Since the police handguns could not penetrate the bank robbers' body armor, the patrol officers' bullets were ineffective. SWAT eventually arrived with rifles powerful enough to penetrate the body armor. Several officers also appropriated AR-15 rifles from a nearby firearms dealer. The incident sparked debate on the need for patrol officers to upgrade their capabilities in similar situations in the future.[4]

Because of the large number of injuries, rounds fired, weapons used, and overall length of the shootout, it is regarded as one of the longest and bloodiest events in US police history.[5] This incident would later lead to California enforcing a highly restrictive law on firearms, including the controversial "10-round magazine-only" law for most firearms owned by state residents.


Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Dec 24, 2012 - 12:49am PT
If there were an armed guard in a school, a student shooter would probably just walk up behind him and off him first thing, then the shooter would have twice as many guns. A big kid could probably whack him with a baseball bat and get the gun!

Just sayin. Plus, teacher are being laid off in droves and somebody wants to pay armed guys to hang out in schools? To save a few kids every few years? Seems misguided

Credit: Karl Baba

Credit: Karl Baba
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Dec 24, 2012 - 12:51am PT
Crimpergirl writes:

"Exactly Chaz."

Thanks, C.G.

One more thing: Your Fellow Citizen is a good person. You can trust him with a car, an AR, or your kid. Seriously.

This was hammered home the first professional bar fight I was in. I had just turned 21, I had been tending bar for a couple weeks. One night I had to hop the bar to get serious with somebody over something, and we ended up boxing.

While we were boxing, I noticed everybody at the bar standing up to get themselves involved in the boxing too.

I was thinking "ah shit! I'm already busy with this guy, now these all these other guys all want to kick my ass too". Why wouldn't they want to kick my ass? I was the guy who had been charging them $1.50 for fifty cents ( if that ) of booze, over and over again for the last couple of weeks.

But instead, a couple of those guys rushed past me - one shoving me out of the way - to get to the guy I was boxing with, and f*#king flattened the guy!

I tended bar at a bunch of, let's say, less-than-genteel joints for most of the next twenty years, and I saw the same thing happen over and over again. People engaging in momentary violence to secure an on-going peace.

Your fellow citizen - whether armed with an AR ( like the cops ), or not, wants the same things you do. I've seen it demonstrated, over and over again.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Dec 24, 2012 - 01:02am PT
Why do the cops carry weapons, jghedge?

To assault people?

Or for self defense while in dangerous situations?

Whenever I'm looking for a tool, I always base my decision on what The Pros are using.

For self defense, The Pros say use a Glock, a shotgun, and an AR, apparently.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Dec 24, 2012 - 01:06am PT
Valley Village, Hedge.

St. Joes is my hospital.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Dec 24, 2012 - 01:07am PT
I'm in favor of felons and crazy people being denied legal gun possession.

Is that "gun control" ?
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Dec 24, 2012 - 01:20am PT
It's people control.

Guns aren't the problem. Over and over again you've been informed of that, yet you still either play dumb or really are.
dee ee

Mountain climber
citizen of planet Earth
Dec 24, 2012 - 01:34am PT
Say no to guns.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 24, 2012 - 01:34am PT
Pffft.


Sick people take pills.
If you don't take pills you won't be sick.
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Reno, Nuh VAAAA duh
Dec 24, 2012 - 01:39am PT
DNR for P Ron.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Dec 24, 2012 - 01:40am PT
jghedge vwrites:

"Limiting people's access to guns will control their actions?"



Who would want to control someone else's actions?

Only a control freak would think he can control someone else's actions like that.

You're on the same control totem pole as the Right To Life whackos are on.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Dec 24, 2012 - 01:45am PT
Chaz, Ron, et al: By virtue of being citizens of the USA, you are all already under significant limitations. One of them being the kinds of weapons that you, or anyone, can own. Those limitations are primarily for public safety, and if anything are much too generous when it comes to firearms. The balance is way out of kilter.

Given the healthcare decision last summer, the election in November, and the likelihood that Obama will be appointing several justices, it would be interesting to see just how your supreme court would handle a new federal gun control statute that sought to restore some balance. Even the so-called strict constructionists would be on the horns of a dilemma.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Dec 24, 2012 - 03:26am PT
Also bear in mind that while Obama will be officially out of office in 2016, his stature and proven track record as a constitutional scholar will ensure that he's involved in choosing SC nominees for several more decades to come - in fact he could very well end up being a SC justice himself, unless there's some rule against that I'm unaware of

I think Obama was our best choice and Like much about him but geez, once Obama claimed the right to indefinitely detain citizens without due process and even assassinate citizens without due process he lost all claim to have any respect for the constitution.

He and Bush share the distinction of two presidents who have done the most on the road to disrespecting the constitution in my mind

Peace

Karl
Dave Kos

Trad climber
Temecula
Dec 24, 2012 - 10:55am PT
Israelis shoot down NRA's claim that the Jewish State uses more weapons to keep schools safe

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/israelis-shoot-nra-claim-article-1.1226401

In recent years, restrictions on gun ownership in Israel have been tightened, not relaxed.

“Israeli citizens are not allowed to carry guns unless they are serving in the army or working in security-related jobs that require them to use a weapon,” said Berko.

In other words, they have a well-regulated militia.

What a concept!

Despite having a standing army of more than 100,000 and police and security guards carrying guns on the street, Israel has strict firearms licensing and supervision.

Licenses must be renewed regularly and cannot be issued to people with a history of mental problems or a criminal background.

“In a country where hundreds of thousands of people carry firearms, it is essential to manage the training, licensing and authorization of those who wish to be armed,” said Yakov Amit, head of the firearms licensing department of the Public Security Ministry.


Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Dec 24, 2012 - 11:02am PT
All I know is reading the "rap" sheet (violence, corruption, vigilantism, etc) of some of those NRA board members make the Weathermen, Symbionese Liberation Army, IRA, Red Brigade, and other fascists groups, look like beginners.
Dave Kos

Trad climber
Temecula
Dec 24, 2012 - 11:08am PT
Israeli gun control regulations 'opposite of US'

http://www.jpost.com/NationalNews/Article.aspx?id=296480

According to Yaakov Amit, the head of the Public Security Ministry’s Firearms Licensing Department, the difference between the gun laws in the US and Israel are as clear as night and day.

Amit said that since 1996, not long after the Rabin assassination, there has been a continuous reduction in the amount of weapons in public hands due larger to stricter regulations. He estimated there are about 170,000 privately-owned firearms in Israel, or enough for around one out of every 50 Israelis, far less per capita than the US, where there are an estimated more than 300 million privately owned guns for a population of a little more than 300 million.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Dec 24, 2012 - 11:25am PT
I think Obama was our best choice and Like much about him but geez, once Obama claimed the right to indefinitely detain citizens without due process and even assassinate citizens without due process he lost all claim to have any respect for the constitution.

He and Bush share the distinction of two presidents who have done the most on the road to disrespecting the constitution in my mind

Peace

Karl









+1 Karl...
dirtbag

climber
Dec 24, 2012 - 11:31am PT
Actually, other presidents have done things that are even more outrageously illegal and/or unconstitutional.

Obviously Nixon comes to mind.

But Lincoln suspended habeas corpus and Adams championed the Alien and Sedition Acts.

Not to give Obama a pass, but he isn't much different from other Presidents.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Dec 24, 2012 - 11:40am PT
Actually, other presidents have done things that are even more outrageously illegal and/or unconstitutional.

Obviously Nixon comes to mind.

There's a difference between doing something Illegal and having an unconstitutional policy that your enshrine forever. I might grant you Nixon, but probably not for the reasons you think. He was part of this horrible trend of going to war without declaring war by congress as required by the constitution by calling it a "police action." Nixon didn't get us into Viet Nam through so he is really a secondary criminal, like Obama, in that regard. He didn't start anything as bad as Bush started, he just used it and made it normal

But Lincoln suspended habeas corpus and Adams championed the Alien and Sedition Acts.

Not to give Obama a pass, but he isn't much different from other Presidents.

yup, you practically have to back to Lincoln to get as unconstitutional as Bush and I blame Obama for using Bush's excess and making it normal

Peace

Karl
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Dec 24, 2012 - 11:41am PT
Karl and Dirtbag are correct. It seems a longstanding policy that presidents can get such legislation passed. Though I am surprised that Obama, who I like (but didn't vote for in 2008), being a so-called constitutional lawyer/expert, would continue and perhaps indeed make such legislation even more draconian.

I think that by continuing policies that Dubya/Cheney instigated, in my mind it puts a huge blot on Obama as a president. In fact, policies that have been in place, for the most part, at least since WW2. I won't go into Manifest Destiny or anything, or what the country's founders thought were good policies, ie guns for militias, because those were the times, right or wrong (ie native American "genocide" and forced renewal). And slavery.

But the US has been living, and is a global power, in the 20th and 21st centuries, and should be showing more moral courage. To say the least. But politicians suck on the teat of corporations and big business.

And of course, the NRA is one of the most powerful lobby groups in the States.
Dave Kos

Trad climber
Temecula
Dec 24, 2012 - 11:54am PT
Why do people with no legal training think that a Constitutional scholar must interpret the Constitution exactly as they would?

I don't agree with many of the recent encroachments on civil liberties. In my uneducated opinion, they violate the spirit, if not the text of the Constitution.

But I also understand there is a legal grey area between crime and war. Enemy soldiers are not protected under the Constitution, American citizens accused of crimes are.

Many people see terrorism as "war" against a foreign enemy - I see it simply as crime. But war is more profitable than law enforcement...

Ultimately we are governed by the rule of law and these questions must be settled by the courts.

How do we make that happen? Support organizations that have enough resources and legal knowledge to challenge the new laws.

If every American gave $1 to the ACLU, they would have $300 million to fight in the courts. That's enough to put up one helluva fight.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Dec 24, 2012 - 11:55am PT
Many people see terrorism as "war" against a foreign enemy - I see it simply as crime. But war is more profitable than law enforcement...

Well said and worth repeating.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Dec 24, 2012 - 11:59am PT
Nothing is "over" Riley,, and im willing to get not much will be added.


The press was blasted by the NRA , and rightly so. They are complicit in every one of these tragedies - as we here have all stated.

We call for help NOW right? Do you think ANY legislation will SOLVE anything NOW? Now that every extended magazine and every AR style rifle has been purchased in the country?

Do you think the black market will SLOW DOWN? Nope, just the opposite.. Kinda like POT,,if you cant get it legally,, theres five hundred thousand other avenues to obtain yur smoke right..?


The NRA is being pro-active in designing protection plans for our nations schools at their own expense and giving them to schools free. So far, thats the only PRO activity ive seen. They suggest armed guards at our schools, and that has been used even BITD of the 70s when i attended high school. We had armed police as guards for a week over a gang fight, and in that week we had ZERO violence, and ZERO after school fights..

So how DO we protect those children NOW? By a LAW?
These latest killings unfortunately set the bar for future ones. Evils seems to do that- eclipsing the last evil.

We have armed guards at football games, Offices, Malls, special events of all types and more. We guard our nations CASH better than we do our children.

Times have changed. We ALL suffer from the effects of terrorism from abroad and e we have our own right here.. Not one of them will ever follow a law.
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Reno, Nuh VAAAA duh
Dec 24, 2012 - 12:00pm PT
Why do people with no legal training think that a Constitutional scholar must interpret the Constitution exactly as they would?

Because people good at one or two other things think they can generalize that knowledge?
guido

Trad climber
Santa Cruz/New Zealand/South Pacific
Dec 24, 2012 - 12:02pm PT
From the Minsistry of Dumbf*#kery:
Huckabeeeee you dumbshit!
Huckabeeeee you dumbshit!
Credit: guido
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Dec 24, 2012 - 12:09pm PT
Well Dr Lecter don't hold back, tell us what you really think. LOL!
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Dec 24, 2012 - 12:11pm PT
"...once Obama claimed the right to indefinitely detain citizens without due process and even assassinate citizens without due process..."

A few Al-Qaeda activists who were in active cells, who got capped along with the other terrorists

Dude, Obama called a second strike on the 16 year old US citizen KID of that US citizen Cleric that they drone-killed. (and even the cleric hadn't been proved of anything besides being a cheerleader for terrorism, (bad, but how different that folks here cheerleading for bombing Iran?)

and plus, saying "but Obama is only using this blatantly unconstitutional power wisely and sparingly" is the biggest BS ever. Obama may even BE wise and sparing but, believe it or not, we could even get Jeb Bush in the white house in 2016 (or some worse Dumbf^&k eventually) and they are likely to abuse the power that we fail to question now

Peace

Karl
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Reno, Nuh VAAAA duh
Dec 24, 2012 - 12:15pm PT
That's why there should be a predator drone in every house, Karl. To combat the gubb mint.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Dec 24, 2012 - 12:29pm PT
Jeb Bush? Actually, as I understand it, the GOP wanted him to run in 2000, but Karl Rove stepped in, and... we know what happened there.

Again, look at some of the history of the NRA board members, not so pretty in my eyes.

As for me, I have no solutions on violence in schools. Throwing more guns at the problem doesn't seem logical, considering the past history.

Will education and social change work? I don't know, I just grieve for 20 dead children and six adults, as much as I imagine people in Palestine, Israel, Afghanistan, African conflicts and so on grieve for innocent (young) victims.

But from what I read, and maybe it is just my perspective, the NRA is being run by a bunch of nutters nowadays.

There must be some sort of solution. Rational, logical minds are needed not knee-jerks like Wayne LaPierre.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Dec 24, 2012 - 12:39pm PT
Hedge you are right on! But reading the above it is clear that the biggest boobs on StupidTorpor are here and not on Anastasia's thread.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Dec 24, 2012 - 12:41pm PT
Do you believe the gubbment acts in OUR best interests now?

Do you believe we have the right to claim to be the WORLD POWER?

Do you believe we have the right to interfere with others civil wars?

All of that is why we are in the mess we are in today.

When the gubbment makes laws dealing with its citizenry like they were /are terrorists they have gone too far.

When they make laws DIRECTLY against the grain of our Constitution, they go to far.


I wrote 17 times to three different representative in our govt over this.

The fact alone that we have Hundreds of laws already on the books leaves the question as to the broad brushing law contained within the NDAA 2013 defense bill.






Lets go hypothetical for a moment.. What would the QUICKEST way to usher in more stringent gun control in a society like America where freedoms are first? If you had some long range goal of absolute control,,(NDAA 2013)
and the problem is a very well armed citizenry, what would make that citizenry voluntarily give up arms..? Obviously it ISNT the daily gang shootings from coast to coast- those dont even make the news anymore. Nor is it the killings daily of adults -they only get a brief passing mention in the news. But what if the urge for ultimate power was enough to do things such as make the NDAA2013 law? Would that urge also be enough to devise some plan to dis-arm the American public, making "total control" a far easier task to obtain?
These are just questions. But even IF this wasnt some deep -evil plan,,it will be used in the manner described above. Washington, and the career idiots we call politicians would LOVE,, i repeat LOVE an UN-ARMED society as would most ANY govt on the planet. They will ALWAYS prefer their sheep un-armed.

Generals in the Services often refer to acceptable rates of casualties. Statistics in other words, as long as the ratio is in the plus, its a win.
To think our top politicians dont think the same is folly. They do.

Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
Dec 24, 2012 - 12:41pm PT
I sold my gun collection to get through medical school. Not only was that in desperation, but also it was quite apropos.

I got quite a penny for the assault rifles, selling them on the corner of Story & King.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Dec 24, 2012 - 12:43pm PT
Hey howz that gravel quarry comin along Rong?
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Dec 24, 2012 - 12:48pm PT
Jebus, actually I do have a predator in the house, but it is not a drone. The little fecker, who we love, brings in live and dead birds and mouses.

Otherwise, as aforementioned, I have no solution to gun violence, anywhere. I wonder if anybody does.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Dec 24, 2012 - 12:51pm PT
As I stated earlier it isn't a "stupid pill" problem it is a G-Spot issue.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Dec 24, 2012 - 01:05pm PT



philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?

Dec 24, 2012 - 09:43am PT
Hey howz that gravel quarry comin along Rong?



Yeah Philoww,, i know your hate for me is much like your hate for your brother .. Youll go to any length to get you digs in here, even if it involves the decimation of a popular climbing area that YOU obviously dont give a rip one about.







Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Dec 24, 2012 - 01:16pm PT
Hedge it isnt that our military has the tools to put down insurrections- remember Kent State? It is the REACTION that they fear. From the press to the internet.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Dec 24, 2012 - 01:20pm PT
Karl, counter-terrorism is quite dirty work. Everything I've ever read on it shows it to be so, and there is no way that you can put lipstick on the pig.

One of the critical things operationally, is to protect methods and sources.

So the gov't launches a drone attack against a group, and wipes them out. I am outraged, and post to high heaven about out inappropriate and unconstitutional that was. I don't know that the group was observed killing the family members of Navy Seals, and that fact is trying to be suppressed so as to not let others know that strategy worked. But I find out, and leak it, because I believe in freedom of information. And I press, and I press for WHO observed this....I think maybe nobody did, and it was just a convenient excuse to off this group. But finally, my persistance pays off, and I get the scoop. I weigh the issue of the remainder of the world-wide terrorist network coming after the observer, vs the "right to know", and decide on the side of liberty. The headlines ring out throughout the land: KARL BABA "ALLEGED" WITNESS TO SLAUGHTER.

And the great thing is, the Gov't has made no deal to waste resources having to protect or hide you, in the newest iteration of Salman Rushdie.

Aren't I one effing patriot in that scenario, Karl.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Dec 24, 2012 - 01:46pm PT
"You think you're going to shoot it out with the cops, and you're going to kill them all and win, and then the gov't will...what? Just leave you alone?"


That's how they're doing it in Afghanistan.

If a bunch of illiterate cavemen wielding small arms can run TWO superpowers out of town, why are you so quick to write off a much more advanced civilization, such as our own?
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Dec 24, 2012 - 01:50pm PT
Yeah Philoww,, i know your hate for me is much like your hate for your brother .. Youll go to any length to get you digs in here, even if it involves the decimation of a popular climbing area that YOU obviously dont give a rip one about.

Wrong again Rongo. I hate neither you nor my brother. I loathe the misinformed right wing bagger programming you both constantly barf up. You both jump to extreme conclusions that are usually completely wrong. For example your willfully uninformed impression that the removal of some surface boulders smaller than three feet in diameter is tantamount to the decimation of a popular climbing area. Do you climb a great many 3' rocks?

a much more advanced civilization, such as our own?
Note to the wingnut brain trust - it is an oxymoron to include yourself in the concept of a much more advanced civilization. A "much more advanced CIVILIZATION" would not need stock piled arsenals and plans for armed insurrection.
Dave Kos

Trad climber
Temecula
Dec 24, 2012 - 01:51pm PT
If a bunch of illiterate cavemen wielding small arms can run TWO superpowers out of town, why are you so quick to write off a much more advanced civilization, such as our own?

Yeah, that's a really accurate description of what's going on there.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Dec 24, 2012 - 01:55pm PT
Or crotch rot from sweating in their mantyhose.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Dec 24, 2012 - 02:04pm PT
Ken M: I don't buy it. Those who would shred the constitution for a tiny extra protection against terrorism deserve nothing.

Terrorists have killed about 1/10 of the people in the US in the past 8 years than Falling coconuts kill worldwide in one year. And for that tiny bit of extra protection we're willing to let the president kill anyone, anywhere, far from any congress declared war (as if that constitutional requirement to declare war was observed anymore) That's madness and that's how tyranny starts

Those who would sacrifice freedom for security deserve neither~ Benjamin Franklin

We're rockclimbers. Let's not sign up with the crowd to be a nation of cowards

Peace

Karl
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Dec 24, 2012 - 02:15pm PT
So we have had all states put up petitions to withdraw from the Union,, which is a first. There are still states pursuing this as well. Also for the first time we have states in direct violation of fed arms laws that have refused to change their own laws. (Montana) This is unprecedented actions by states. I certainly never remember such things in my fiddy some years.
The talk in washington over all of this has led to agencies such as the IRS and SS to procure millions of rounds of hollow point ammo from 9mm to 223 and above. This is also unprecedented as never before have such agencies been involved in such massive ammo stock piles..

These are all well known facts.

So why do they now stockpile millions of rounds of hollow point ammo here in this country? Does anyone even wonder about those little details?

You all talk about GUN NUTS yet seemingly ignore the fact that you own govt is making GUN NUTS look sane by comparison.

That is why organizations like "Oath Keepers" have sprang up and grown rapidly. And they are for the most, either current or former military personnel. DEDICATED to the preservation of our constitution and their oaths.. That is another reason the govt now buys massive amounts of ammo, as they are the same military personnel that have been used in illegal wars and police actions that resulted in no change what so ever. From Nam to Afghanistan.. And they for the most are PISSED OFF!
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Dec 24, 2012 - 02:26pm PT
So we have had all states put up petitions to withdraw from the Union,, which is a first. There are still states pursuing this as well. Also for the first time we have states in direct violation of fed arms laws that have refused to change their own laws. (Montana) This is unprecedented actions by states. I certainly never remember such things in my fiddy some years.
The talk in washington over all of this has led to agencies such as the IRS and SS to procure millions of rounds of hollow point ammo from 9mm to 223 and above. This is also unprecedented as never before have such agencies been involved in such massive ammo stock piles..

These are all well known facts.

So why do they now stockpile millions of rounds of hollow point ammo here in this country? Does anyone even wonder about those little details?

You all talk about GUN NUTS yet seemingly ignore the fact that you own govt is making GUN NUTS look sane by comparison.

That is why organizations like "Oath Keepers" have sprang up and grown rapidly. And they are for the most, either current or former military personnel. DEDICATED to the preservation of our constitution and their oaths.. That is another reason the govt now buys massive amounts of ammo, as they are the same military personnel that have been used in illegal wars and police actions that resulted in no change what so ever. From Nam to Afghanistan.. And they for the most are PISSED OFF!

No, they are traitors to the Union.

Patriots do not attempt to undermine the Union. They do not talk about assasinating the leaders of the Union.

They don't LIE and MAKE UP CRAP, like the stuff you put up, above.

They don't do straw purchases of firearms while active law enforcement officers to subvert laws.

They don't attempt to break off states from the Union, centered around military organization and firearms.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Dec 24, 2012 - 02:32pm PT
ohhwww guddie....its ,,,,,,MONOKEN!!!!!!

(ppppsssst Ken,, theres like 9 rifles and 2 hand guns leaving Reno to LA then onto AFREEKA today!!!! better call the EF BEE EYE!
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 24, 2012 - 02:35pm PT
Chaz, I'm on your side but I'm afraid that the Afghans are so warlike that they are the world's expert at expelling foreign invaders for millennia now.

Must be all the intramural games.LOL


Used to be that Americans were rugged and independent but 3-4 generations of the nanny tit allowed us to forget.
Fat dumb and happy, Franklin's warning is lost on them.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Dec 24, 2012 - 02:37pm PT
i guess hedge doesnt realize the PEOPLE ARE THE STATE AND COUNTRY...
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Dec 24, 2012 - 02:50pm PT
Corporations are people too. How do you like that?
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Dec 24, 2012 - 02:52pm PT
Ron, these are the "anti-gov't" killer-nut "patriots" that you like to hang out with, saving America from our gov't:

A gunman set a trap and shot and killed two firefighters responding to an early morning blaze in Webster, N.Y., police officials said. Two other firefighters were also shot and both are listed in guarded condition at a local hospital.

"It does appear that it was a trap that was set for first responders, but the cause or reasons we don't have at this time," said Webster Police Chief Gerald Pickering as he described the scene where shots were fired at West Webster firefighters when they arrived at 5:35 a.m. to battle the blaze along Lake Road. Webster is about 10 miles east of Rochester.

The apparent gunman was found dead at the scene, but it’s unclear if he was killed by a self-inflicted gunshot or if it was from a weapon from police officers who were chasing him.

The victims were Mike Chiapperini, also a lieutenant and public information officer with the local police department, and Tomasz Kaczowka, Pickering said.

Chiapperini was described by Pickering as a lifelong firefighter who started with the department's explorer program and had about 20 years of experience. Kaczowka was a younger firefighter and was also a 911 dispatcher, he said.

West Webster firefighters Joseph Hofsetter and Theodore Scardino were seriously injured and are at Strong Memorial Hospital with gunshot wounds, a hospital spokeswoman said. Scardino has injuries to his chest and lungs. Hofsetter was injured in the pelvis, the spokeswoman said at a media briefing.

An off-duty police officer from nearby Greece, N.Y. John Ritter was also injured by shrapnel during the shooting, Pickering said.

Pickering said that one of the firefighters who survived made his way across a bridge to get to safety. The other three did not make it across, Pickering said. Police arrived and rescued the other three firefighters, but two were fatally shot, Pickering said.

"These are volunteers who get up in the middle of the night to fight fires. They don't expect to be shot and killed," a tearful Pickering said at the press conference.

The morning scene was described as chaotic as police and firefighters dealt with an immense blaze as well as gunshots, local news station WHAM-TV reports.

“I’m not aware of anything like this happening in Webster, obviously not a firefighter being fired upon,” Webster Fire Marshal Rob Boutillier told the Democrat and Chronicle. Pickering described Webster as resort lakeside community that is quiet and usually peaceful.

There at least four houses that have been damaged by the fire along Lake Road, WHAM-TV reported. Firefighters had to leave the scene and stop battling the blazes while police secured the scene. They continue to battle the blaze.

...
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Dec 24, 2012 - 02:57pm PT
GFYS Ken.. You have NO CLUE as to i hang out with. And it ISNT anyone that would murder fire fighters..
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Dec 24, 2012 - 03:00pm PT
Ron, you shouldn't speak to your elders like that. You wouldn't make it in my tribe.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Dec 24, 2012 - 03:02pm PT
NONE of my Elders would ever babble such nonsense.. And Ken AINT of my tribe. And THATZAFAKT JACK..


Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Dec 24, 2012 - 03:12pm PT
Joe Hedge wrote

There is no way to protect against terrorists that involves giving them the same rights US citizens have

If you're a US citizen in an Al-Qaeda cell, you have effectively renounced your citizenship, so please don't tell me Obama is killing US citizens, just because the US-born terrorists haven't filed the proper paperwork with the State Dept to renounce their citizenship

Don't be a BS hypocrite Hedge. You are smarter than that. When Bush was doing the same things, you were crying foul (with good cause)

That 16 year old kid was not a part of any Al Queda cell, particularly in some bum f*#k nation that hasn't managed to attack us anywhere. THere are plenty of people on this very thread who want to have assault weapons in case they have to fight the government someday. Aren't they just as fair game? Aren't they potential terrorists too? Have they effectively renounced their citizenship too?

Don't let your partisanship make you lame. People aren't able to effectively police the other party. We need to check our own side to make sure we stay with truth and freedom

Peace

karl
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Dec 24, 2012 - 03:13pm PT
Ron, those are the same type of tactics (roadside bombs, ambushes) Chaz said could be employed in this country to take the government down if they lose some gun rights.

Which side will you choose if it comes down to that?
wilbeer

Mountain climber
honeoye falls,ny.greeneck alleghenys
Dec 24, 2012 - 03:13pm PT
im a first responder ,just outside of rochester.our thoughts to the families.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Dec 24, 2012 - 03:20pm PT
+1 to those FIREFIGHTERs and families , my sincere condolences..

Comments like Ken made to me regarding my "brother" firemen would if said in person, likely end up with a kick to the teeth.



And Mono,, no i dont really think Chaz meant killing firefighters by any stretch of imagination..
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Dec 24, 2012 - 03:21pm PT
You've got to be kidding? So would police officers enforcing gun laws be ok to kill.

You gotta kill a few of them first, to get the Apaches warming up.

And how would roadside bombs not endanger firefighters?
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Dec 24, 2012 - 03:30pm PT
Every Military Oath i know of includes "enemies both foreign AND domestic"..

Why do you think that is?


Many of you wish for guns to go away completely, and so does just about ANY govt, like in N Korea, for instance. And how did that work out for them?

Why did Obama continue the decimation of the Constitution like he did- worse then even GWB.

ANY of you not shocked and dismayed by that new law should really think on 20 years down the road, and what we let loose.



Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Dec 24, 2012 - 03:33pm PT
Comments like Ken made to me regarding my "brother" firemen would if said in person, likely end up with a kick to the teeth.


Like I said, Ron, threats of violence, mixed with guns, alcohol...make you a very dangerous person.

Your FIRST instinct is to commit violent acts if you don't like what someone is saying.

THAT is what the guy who killed volunteer firefighters was doing. He had a grievance. I'm sure it was irrational. But his response was to commit violence...like you.

Your brother.
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Dec 24, 2012 - 03:35pm PT
Many of you wish for guns to go away completely,

Really? Like who?

I'm pretty sure most just want to ban the mass killing machines and just regulate the rest.

But what do I know........... I'm Canadian!!!!!!!!!!!!
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Dec 24, 2012 - 03:37pm PT
GFYS Ken.. You have NO CLUE as to i hang out with. And it ISNT anyone that would murder fire fighters..

UNLESS they were part of a GOV'T RESPONSE....because they are PART OF THE GOV'T that you hate so much.

You should consider that your "buddies", so eager to take out the gov't "goons" would be talking about YOU, as a USFS LEO. YOU would be their target.

Your brothers.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Dec 24, 2012 - 03:45pm PT
As a sportsman, I've never understood the concept of needing a gun that was semi-auto in nature. Just blasting away, hoping to hit SOMETHING.

Someone wants to hunt, bolt action rifles tend to be more accurate. And powerful. I think that's why snipers favor them.

Spraying weapons don't seem sporting to me.

For home defense, shotguns seem optimal. I understand that most incidents of firing rarely involve more than 10 feet. For people who are not practicing weekly, which is almost everyone not in law enforcement or competition, shotguns take a lot of mis-aim out of the equation.

Serious background checks that cannot be gotten around, should be the order of the day.
Josh Nash

Social climber
riverbank ca
Dec 24, 2012 - 04:04pm PT
As a sportsman, I've never understood the concept of needing a gun that was semi-auto in nature. Just blasting away, hoping to hit SOMETHING.

Someone wants to hunt, bolt action rifles tend to be more accurate. And powerful. I think that's why snipers favor them.

Spraying weapons don't seem sporting to me.

For home defense, shotguns seem optimal. I understand that most incidents of firing rarely involve more than 10 feet. For people who are not practicing weekly, which is almost everyone not in law enforcement or competition, shotguns take a lot of mis-aim out of the equation.

Serious background checks that cannot be gotten around, should be the order of the day.

+1 for common sense and basically how I have felt and have tried to articulate but a lot of people don't see it that way.
I'd like to point out hand grenades. How many people have been slaughtered by hand grenades? You know why? Illegal and not available for public consumption. It works when something inherently dangerous is banned. so why not assault style weapons. There's absolutely no need for them. I spent five years of my life carrying one around for uncle sam and his marine corps. I know the need. I know the need in a combat situation. Since we don't live in a combat situation here stateside I don't really get it. A lot of my friends feel differently and it makes me sad.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Dec 24, 2012 - 04:09pm PT
Hey Joe,, why is it that i found a live grenade at a local boat ramp laying in the mud..? Banned you say? So are chinese made AK 47s,, that flow into this country on a near daily basis.

Bannings do one thing, effect already law-abiding citizens..

Out of the over 400K known gang members here, you can bet their are at least double that in guns, not on the books in any way..
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Dec 24, 2012 - 04:37pm PT
The thing with banning grenades or mega clips for that matter...

If they are illegal, at least the criminals can get in trouble if they are found with the contraband. If they are legal, you can drive around with them in your trunk and the police can't do squat if they catch you but not red handed, even on the way to a crime

peace

Karl
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Dec 24, 2012 - 04:42pm PT
The illegal ones - you wont know they are there until its too late--like the IHOP shooter and his chinese AK 47.


We have these shootings happening, much like they have in other parts of the world. Hollywood couldnt design a better scenario of some sinister plot to create havoc here in "river city"..

And no, im not advocating the carrying of grenades. Although i hear they make wonderful fishin tools as the Marines found out at Juntion res, on Sonora pass.
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Dec 24, 2012 - 04:45pm PT
Ron, you're missing Karl's point entirely.

Go read some literature, the classics. It'll help adjust your perspective by learning trends in how people think.
locker

Social climber
state of Kumbaya...
Dec 24, 2012 - 05:18pm PT


Who is this???...

photo not found
Missing photo ID#280315
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Dec 24, 2012 - 05:27pm PT
The response (factual) to the NRA example of guns in the school, etc:


Officials challenge NRA’s claims about Israeli gun policies
AMY TEIBEL
JERUSALEM — The Associated Press
Published Monday, Dec. 24 2012, 4:57 PM EST

Israel's policy on issuing guns is restrictive, and armed guards at its schools are meant to stop terrorists, not crazed or disgruntled gunmen, experts said Monday, rejecting claims by America's top gun lobby that Israel serves as proof for its philosophy that the U.S. needs more weapons, not fewer.


Far from the image of a heavily-armed population where ordinary people have their own arsenals to repel attackers, Israel allows its people to acquire firearms only if they can prove their professions or places of residence put them in danger. The country relies on its security services, not armed citizens, to prevent terror attacks.

Though military service in Israel is compulsory, routine familiarity with weapons does not carry over into civilian life. Israel has far fewer private weapons per capita than the U.S., and while there have been gangster shootouts on the streets from time to time, gun rampages outside the context of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict are unheard of.

The National Rifle Association responded to the Dec. 14 killing of 20 first-graders and six adults at a Connecticut elementary school by resisting calls for tighter gun control and calling for armed guards and police at schools. On Sunday, the lobby's chief executive, Wayne LaPierre, invoked his perception of the Israeli school security system to back his proposal.

“Israel had a whole lot of school shootings until they did one thing: They said, ‘We're going to stop it,’ and they put armed security in every school and they have not had a problem since then,” Mr. LaPierre said on the NBC News show Meet the Press.

Israel never had “a whole lot of school shootings.” Authorities could only recall two in the past four decades.

In 1974, 22 children and three adults were killed in a Palestinian attack on an elementary school in Maalot, near the border with Lebanon. The attackers' goal was to take the children hostage and trade them for imprisoned militants.

In 2008, another Palestinian assailant killed eight young people, most of them teens, at a nighttime study session at a Jewish religious seminary in Jerusalem. An off-duty soldier who happened to be in the area killed the attacker with his personal firearm.

Israel didn't mandate armed guards at the entrances to all schools until 1995, the Education Ministry said — more than two decades after the Maalot attack and two years after a Palestinian militant wounded five pupils and their principal in a knifing at a Jerusalem school.

Israel's lightly armed school guards are not the first or the last line of defence. They are backed up by special police forces on motorcycles that can be on the scene within minutes — again bringing out the main, but not the only, difference between the two systems.

Foreign Ministry spokesman Yigal Palmor spelled it out.

“We're fighting terrorism, which comes under very specific geopolitical and military circumstances. This is not something that compares with the situation in the U.S,” Palmor said.

Because it is aimed at preventing terror attacks, Israel's school security system is part of a multi-layered defence strategy that focuses on prevention and doesn't depend on a guy at a gate with a gun.

Intelligence gathering inside Palestinian territories, a large military force inside the West Bank and a barrier of towering concrete slabs and electronic fencing along and inside the West Bank provide the first line of defence.

Guards are stationed not just at schools, but at many other public facilities, including bus and train stations, parking lots, malls and restaurants.

“There are other measures of prevention of an attack taking place, which are carried out 24 hours a day, seven days a week, all over the country,” police spokesman Micky Rosenfeld said. Many are not for public knowledge.

Gun lobbyists who might think Israel hands out guns freely to keep its citizens safe might be less enamoured of Israel's actual gun laws, which are much stricter than those in the U.S. For one thing, notes Yakov Amit, head of the firearms licensing department at the Ministry of Public Security, Israeli law does not guarantee the right to bear arms as the U.S. Constitution does.

“The policy in Israel is restrictive,” he said.

Gun licensing to private citizens is limited largely to people who are deemed to need a firearm because they work or live in dangerous areas, Mr. Amit said. West Bank settlers, for instance, can apply for weapons licenses, as can residents of communities on the borders with Lebanon and the Gaza Strip. Licensing requires multiple levels of screening, and permits must be renewed every three years. Renewal is not automatic.

The policy is designed “to strike a balance between needs and risks,” Mr. Amit said. “We know that weapons are a dangerous thing, and in the hands of someone who isn't trained or isn't reliable, it causes problems.”

The gap between Israeli gun ownership and U.S. gun ownership is consequently staggering. A total of 170,000 guns are licensed for private use in Israel, or about one gun for every 30 adults.

In addition to the privately held weapons, 130,000 guns are licensed to Israeli security companies, firing ranges, government ministries and companies that operate in areas deemed dangerous. Soldiers who carry assault rifles off base during their regular or reserves service turn them in when they complete their tours of duty.

By contrast, U.S. authorities estimate that at least one-third of all American households have firearms — and in many cases, not only one.

Americans are also much freer to choose what type of guns they buy. Automatic weapons of the type gunman Adam Lanza used to gun down his victims are banned for private ownership in Israel. It is also rare for a person to be authorized to own more than one firearm, Mr. Amit said.

Eighty per cent of the 10,000 people who apply yearly for licenses are turned down, he said. In the U.S., people can purchase firearms from private dealers without a background check or a license of any kind.

In Israel, applicants must undergo police screening and medical exams, in part to determine their mental state, Mr. Amit said.

Many Israelis receive weapons training in the military. But to be licensed to receive a weapon outside the military, they must undergo at least two hours of additional training, then repeat the training and medical exams every three years before they can renew their licenses.

Anybody who possesses a legally acquired gun waives the right to confidentiality, and authorities cross-reference for new information about the gunholder every three months.

“The point is not to complicate, but to make sure the system makes things safer,” Mr. Amit said.


But hey, what do I know? I'm Israeli !!!!!!!


A good model for the states? I mean the USA at least IMAGINES they are under similar siege so we'll cut 'em a little slack to keep the fantasy running. Ron for instance, who is under near constant threat from Latino drug gangs could easily demonstrate as much ....... I think.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 24, 2012 - 07:41pm PT
The cradle of gun making link in that article was written by a gumby who referred to the ".45 semi-automatic Colt Peacemaker".


WTF!

But it is true that CT has always been big on gun making.
Mimi

climber
Dec 24, 2012 - 08:19pm PT
Dirk, think about it this way. We have armed guards at banks, malls, jewelry stores, high-end schools where politicians and celebrities kids go, art museums, etc. etc. Are not all children worth protecting this way? I guess regular kids don't rate. These are good jobs.

We will never stop a madman from killing. Take all the guns away. Won't change that. Especially in a gun free zone for crying out loud!
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Reno, Nuh VAAAA duh
Dec 24, 2012 - 08:39pm PT
Is not everybody worthy of an armed bodyguard? I implore you!

When only worthy people have armed bodyguards, we will shoot everybody else. Using our bodyguards!
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Dec 24, 2012 - 08:49pm PT
Especially in a gun free zone for crying out loud!

imagine that. there are these little islands of "gun free zones" awash in an ocean of weaponry which only intent is to kill people, and somehow somebody penetrated the perimeter like ten thousand semen surrounding and egg.

Hey I got an idea. Why not make everywhere a gun free zone like the whole of the civilized world.

No wait - Thats dumb. lets eliminate gun free zones completely. It works fine for Somalia right?
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Dec 24, 2012 - 08:56pm PT
Do you have kids in school?


Mimi, like most of the places you mentioned, there are no armed guards at banks any more. When was the last time, other than armored car pick ups and deliveries, that you saw armed guards at a bank? It is the 21st century they use cameras now.
Proven to be a far better deterrent. Arguing to arm our schools because there are also guns in all these places is a charade. A sick and perverse fools game.

It would cost BILLIONS to put just one armed person in every school in America. It would be better to put the BILLIONS into education. Lord knows the Republicans have cut school districts budgets to the bone. First line of defense is public education.
Mimi

climber
Dec 24, 2012 - 09:22pm PT
Bruce, you are too evolved. We live in a world of savages. I say if we continue to expand government as we are, this job category is a worthy one.

Philo, get rid of a chunk of TSA and we can protect our schools and other public and undefended places. Government waste could be much better spent in this way.

Didn't know that about Columbine. Not an expert in mass shootings. I'm sure much was learned about proper reaction to this type of attack.
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Dec 24, 2012 - 09:24pm PT
Do ya think that just maybe the problem may be cultural? You know, as in gun culture?

Crazy idea I know but you never know
Mimi

climber
Dec 24, 2012 - 09:26pm PT
What is gun culture? I believe you may have a skewed view not based on facts with all due respect.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Dec 24, 2012 - 09:34pm PT
You will never stop a determined, intelligent, otherwise f*#king psychotic killer. If you don't fix the root of the problem you waste time and divide an already divided country even deeper. We can fix the problem but there is a lot of money riding on nobody asking those questions.

The problem of this new crop of mass killers is different than that of "gun control".

But few seem to understand that or have the capacity to focus on root issues. They see a "bad guy with a gun" and run off onto the gun control tangent, never to return.

If Adam Lanza had crashed a Mobil tanker into the school and burned 200 or maybe hacked 9 little kids to death with a machete, would that make anyone feel safer? Dead is dead...

Trying to compare Israel to this country is probably the stupidest thing I've ever heard of. Coming in second are comparisons to England.

Stop paying attention to the NRA or whatever the Black Jesus puppet comes up with. Think for yourselves.



Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Dec 24, 2012 - 09:37pm PT
oh I don't know about that. Look, gun cultures exist like all cultures. Like Flyfishing or climbing cultures. World wide too. There are gun cultures in Canada certainly . Australia, The Congo, Sudan, Argentina ..... etc. Even in the Antarctic for all I know.

America certainly has one. In fact it is so central to the broader society that the boundaries are blurry at best. I'm not saying at all that the existence of gun culture is bad but I am saying that American gun culture is morally flawed and far far too dominant a political force in a society that claims to be civilized. Somalia, the Sudan, the Pakistan / Afgan border regions may actually have an actual benefit, albeit short term hopefully, but anywhere civilized forget it.

Yup guns are not the problem. Its your culture. The problem is that they are not mutually exclusive.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 24, 2012 - 09:49pm PT
Well could somebody from the ANTI-gun culture please define "assault weapon"?

Isn't it a redundant phrase?

Not all guns are used in assaults. Do we call all spoons in prison "assault spoons"?
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Dec 24, 2012 - 09:59pm PT
Ron did you skip Hooked on Phonics and go straight to Stuck on Semantics?
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Dec 24, 2012 - 10:00pm PT
Toker, check with the Feds, CA and MA. They have no problem defining what an assault weapon is.

Good news for you. There's plenty to quibble about.

Adults sometimes have to draw lines in grey areas. It's part of being a grown-up.
Mimi

climber
Dec 24, 2012 - 10:03pm PT
Bruce, my issue with gun culture as a label is that most gun owners are responsible and don't commit crimes, hence, it's a negative label.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Dec 24, 2012 - 10:05pm PT
Perhaps the "responsible" gun owners should be more proactive in controlling access to weapons of mass murder.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 24, 2012 - 10:29pm PT
They have no problem defining what an assault weapon is.

Wrong again there monotone.
What they do is list makes and models based on how badass they look.

Not a very good way to distinguish when you consider that Mini 14s were not included even though, had they been produced a mere 5 years earlier, they would likely have become our service rifle rather than the M16.

Gas operated high capacity box feed* Garand style carbine that fired the essentially the same cartridge.

*(I do have a beta-mag for one)


So requesting a clear definition based on functional features rather than badassery seems reasonable to me

I said "reasonable" as in common ground,...
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Dec 24, 2012 - 10:29pm PT
I knew you would quibble.

All those gun experts in ATF and elsewhere would be put to shame in a discussion with you.

There is discussion of features in the bans as well as identifying by model.

Do you need a link to the CA list?
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 24, 2012 - 10:32pm PT
Merely asking YOU to define terms.
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Dec 24, 2012 - 10:33pm PT
Mimi, thats a red herring. Of course gun nuts are predominantly good and responsible people, just like most people who belong to the Prosperity church may be. But at times good people find that whatever they are doing is in fact feeding another purpose altogether. I think those values that they find through the smoking barrel of a gun are found at a terrible cost. Other gun cultures don't quite seem to have the same out of control costs, and that may have a lot to do with how they regulate it.

Huh, sounds a lot like the financial industry dosn't it?
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Dec 24, 2012 - 10:33pm PT
Toker, you want to get into a quibble fight with someone who is not an expert on guns.

Seen it quite a few times from you.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 24, 2012 - 10:36pm PT
So,................ you can't.
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Dec 24, 2012 - 10:37pm PT
Yes I can, just not to you satisfaction, ever. No one can.

I've read the bans that list features and by model.

You can get much better info by going directly to the ban documents, but you aren't interested.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 24, 2012 - 10:40pm PT
Well thats an understatemenr!
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Reno, Nuh VAAAA duh
Dec 24, 2012 - 10:42pm PT
You will never stop a determined, intelligent, otherwise f*#king psychotic killer. If you don't fix the root of the problem you waste time and divide an already divided country even deeper. We can fix the problem but there is a lot of money riding on nobody asking those questions.

The Chinese stabbings on the very same day as the Lanza massacre don't really jibe with your argument. Guns make it very convenient to kill, whatever the root cause. If guns didn't, why would hunters favor guns rather than, say, slingshots?

Let's own up to what guns are and what they can do, not quibble with semantics and pretend they are something else. Take some responsibility!

Let's speak plainly about the capabilities of guns and go from there, whichever way we move. As Piton Ron points out, it is bad enough obfuscation exists in the very basic terms of the argument, much less when people deny the most obvious features that make guns desirable in the first place. It's patronizing and many see through it easily.

And "Black Jesus puppet"? Really? Lame.

If you are arguing there is a new type of killer, it would seem this type of killer is one of convenience. They are not grabbing revolvers, rigging bombs and enacting complicated schemes; they are grabbing very convenient weapons that work very well for this job and simply plodding into crowded areas and pulling the trigger. These are Americans who want murder done their way.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 24, 2012 - 10:50pm PT
I don't deny that they are efficient tools for killing.
But if criminals can get them easily (and they always will) then why not at least allow a level playing field?

If I have violent perps breaking in and I find it necessary to dispatch them with an AR then it is not an assault rifle , it is a defense rifle.

Assault weapon is a deliberately pejorative term.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Dec 24, 2012 - 10:51pm PT
Do you have violent perps breaking in?
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Dec 24, 2012 - 11:02pm PT
then why not at least allow a level playing field?


By level, do you really mean leveled?
pud

climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
Dec 24, 2012 - 11:04pm PT
I needed some ammo for plinking in the desert so I went to nearby gun shop.
It was packed and all their ammo was gone. Went to walmart and thier stock was gone also.
Went to the big gunshop 30 miles away and there was a 2-3 hour wait. the place was packed. Hit up another big one, same wait time.
Finally ended up buying online.

The dealers I spoke with said it was a total panic buy and they "emptied the shelves" numerous times since the 14th.

All the places except walmart push NRA membership and a lot of the folks buying are first time firearm owners. Hopefully, they'll do their homework before joining this organization.
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Reno, Nuh VAAAA duh
Dec 24, 2012 - 11:07pm PT
I don't deny that they are efficient tools for killing.
But if criminals can get them easily (and they always will) then why not at least allow a level playing field?

If I have violent perps breaking in and I find it necessary to dispatch them with an AR then it is not an assault rifle , it is a defense rifle.

Assault weapon is a deliberately pejorative term.


I don't agree that we couldn't do as the UK do and all but eliminate guns from the criminal tool box. I don't believe only outlaws would have guns, or that law enforcement couldn't outgun them and make them pay in blood for their choice of weapon. Our country can do whatever it wants, and slippery slope arguments just don't hold water (because, you know, the angle).

If we have guns remain part of our culture, we need to stop this handing the government our ammo talk. That sh#t should frighten and piss off anybody who loves this country. One of my clearest memories of that phrase, in fact, was on the shirt of a friend's sister's neo nazi boyfriend's shirt. That rhetoric's not acceptable in my book unless you are going to bust a cap in the next government official's ass you see. At least then you wouldn't be such a driveling hypocrite.

We need better education about guns and honest talk that acknowledges, yes, guns ARE dangerous. They f*#king are, don't dress that sh#t up. You OWN a gun BECAUSE it's dangerous. Managing danger, then, is the key, just as it is in climbing. Less charged language, and more focus on education is the way to go. Really, something needs to be done to bridge the gap between gun owners and the non gun owning public, something that puts guns in the hands of people who would otherwise not have shot one. That should be the focus of those who want to avoid restrictions on their firearms. Not the unrealistic sh#t being thrown down the line that A) won't work, B) makes us look like a 3rd world, paranoid country, and C) offends the sh#t out of people in a delicate time.

If you are a reasonable gun owner, talk honestly, and disassociate yourself from paranoid types that make everybody nervous thinking, damn, that whackjob has access to some finely crafted killing machinery? People are smoking too much paranoia nowadays.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Dec 24, 2012 - 11:08pm PT
I remember when they created a fear of an impending toilet paper shortage in the 70s. Then a feared coffee shortage. Then a gas shortage. Same crazy panic buying. You all taught those Madison Avenue marketing mavens a powerful lesson to be sure. And now it is a Happy Holidays for the gun and ammo corporations.
photo not found
Missing photo ID#280406
By the way I hear there will be a dire shortage of gravel. Stock up stupid humans.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Dec 24, 2012 - 11:23pm PT
They were selling "bulletproof" little kid backpacks at a Walgreens tonight. They had 500 this morning and were down to about 50 from the looks of it.... WTF??!

Every gun shop in the area has Woodstock level crowds.

Fear has always been a great business unfortunately.



Have a good X-mas, Kwanza, Festivus, etc... everyone!

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 24, 2012 - 11:37pm PT
Do you have violent perps breaking in?

Never happen, huh?

From the BD thread;
A year ago a man Hugh on pcp broke into our house and tried to kill me and my girlfriend. When you have to fight for your life and almost end up losing it because you did not have a way to defend yourself you may change your way of thinking. Before that I never had a desire for a gun.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Dec 24, 2012 - 11:56pm PT
Philo writes:

"Do you have violent perps breaking in?"


How the hell do I know what I'll be having? That's the thing about emergencies; You can't predict them. They tend to crop up unexpectedly. Because if you could see violence coming, you would just avoid the scene completely.
Todd Eastman

climber
Bellingham, WA
Dec 25, 2012 - 12:00am PT
NRA members = Orcs!
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Reno, Nuh VAAAA duh
Dec 25, 2012 - 12:07am PT
Credit: Jebus H Bomz
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Dec 25, 2012 - 02:41am PT
They were selling "bulletproof" little kid backpacks at a Walgreens tonight. They had 500 this morning and were down to about 50 from the looks of it.... WTF??!

Pretty wild. Humans are so funny about fear. You look at what people fear and what really kills people and people are all gripped about the things that aren't the real risks. Peope fear flying but not driving!

Unintentional injury is the number one killer of children ages 1 to 14 in the U.S.

In 2008, 4,643 children ages 14 and under died from unintentional injury.
In 2009, 6,178,000 children ages 14 and under sustained unintentional nonfatal injuries treated in emergency departments.
Almost one-third of deaths among children ages 1 to 14 are due to unintentional injury.
The leading causes of injury-related death among children ages 14 and under are motor vehicle crashes, suffocation, drowning and fires and/or burns.
The leading cause of nonfatal injury for children ages 14 and under is unintentional falls.

Safer and cheaper to make kids wear waterwings anytime they are near water
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Dec 25, 2012 - 03:09am PT
Nobody reads the last post on a page
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Dec 25, 2012 - 03:14am PT
Americans are weird. There's a shoe bomber and now we have to take off our shoes. There was a rumor (they didn't really have anything) about a liquid bomber, and now I have to take my shoes off to get on a plane. Let's hope somebody doesn't rig a penile implant with explosives.

So we make our rules after a crisis.

but Somebody could take an AR 15 with some big clips into an airport lobby and open fire on huge long lines of people waiting for security check to get on that plane and probably dozens would be dead before they shot him.

and if he did that at the line to get into Disneyland, even more would die

Our security thinking is always in the missionary position. Good thing real terrorism and real nutcase are far more rare than we fear

Peace

Karl
pud

climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
Dec 25, 2012 - 12:15pm PT
I hope everyone reading this has a BOMBER Christmas!
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Dec 25, 2012 - 01:05pm PT
Give it a rest Hedge. And have a merry Christmas dude!

You too Gun nuts! Merry christmas!
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 25, 2012 - 02:04pm PT
And there might be a few people from Connecticut (I grew up in Westport) who feel differently.

Isn't the NSSF office in Newtown?





Cosmiccragsman

Trad climber
AKA Dwain, from Apple Valley, Ca. and Vegas!
Dec 25, 2012 - 02:09pm PT


Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 25, 2012 - 03:51pm PT
Isn't that the Xmas card that a sheriff sent out to a bunch of parolees warning them not to get into trouble in the coming year?
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Dec 25, 2012 - 07:04pm PT
Assault weapon is a deliberately pejorative term.

Really? So you are saying that the manufacturers, who created these weapons for military use with specific performance characteristics in mind, were dissing their own products?

That soldiers, referring to such weapons, are actually making a derogatory statement about their rifles?

Really?
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Dec 25, 2012 - 07:05pm PT

Hilarious!

These guys want COMPLETE freedom (but I guess not of newspapers).

They want their right to PRIVACY (which they say the Constitution does not guarantee to citizens.)

Hmmmmm.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 25, 2012 - 07:45pm PT
A gun dealer on the CBS national news just nominated Diane Feinstein and Obama as Salespersons Of The Year!!!


No shlt!
Check out this Gallil

There is a day and a half left and the bid is well over $11,000.


http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=322378171


Good news for me over the short term at least.
Riley spoke of the tulip boom and bust in 1636-37.
Timing is everything. Some people made fortunes.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 25, 2012 - 07:56pm PT
Who says I'm a buyer?

I'm thinking of doing a little profit taking.
pud

climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
Dec 25, 2012 - 08:15pm PT
Joe, why are you such a hostile, negative individual?

There is little value in your rhetoric and you are constantly condemning others for not thinking as you do.
Get out and climb a little or whatever brings you peace.

Save us your grief, please.
kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
Dec 25, 2012 - 08:20pm PT
If guns are outlawed, only geeks will be printing guns! btw. I don't think this is a great development....

http://www.kvue.com/news/printable-guns-184691571.html

http://defensedistributed.com/
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 25, 2012 - 08:35pm PT
Ultra light AR with a $7,500 bid.


http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=323412078
happiegrrrl

Trad climber
www.climbaddictdesigns.com
Dec 25, 2012 - 08:57pm PT
Question: Would you be concerned if you had a nephew, about 18 years old, who posted these images and quite a few others like them to his Facebook page in the past two months? The images started showing up a few months ago, around the time his father left the US for another 9 months in the Middle East. Also about that time he posted to his FB asking who would support him if he joined National Guard.

His father is an Army National Guard and pilot who, for the last few years has been been working in Afghanistan about 9 months out of a year, and according to his FB page, works for http://www.avengeinc.com. He can not tell his family specifics as to what he does.

Credit: happiegrrrl

Credit: happiegrrrl

Credit: happiegrrrl

Credit: happiegrrrl

Credit: happiegrrrl

I am not concerned he is going to do something violent to innocent people here,but more concerned he is going to enlist in some military group with a "shoot 'em up" attitude.

To me, it seems this sort of glorification of weapons use seems to be not a healthy state of mind, especially out of a young man who is just barely coming into adulthood, and whose father has been overseas the majority of last few years working in this way. I worry he is trying to "be a good soldier" for his dad, but it may have taken him over a point that is emotionally healthy.

I have been wanting to bring up the subject with his mother, my sister, but not sure what to say.
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Reno, Nuh VAAAA duh
Dec 25, 2012 - 09:23pm PT
Is she a psychologist studying that particular subject??! Strange request otherwise.

I would say it has a lot with being young and full of testosterone but then I know some guys who are older than me posting essentially the same stuff. Hell, some of them are here!
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Dec 25, 2012 - 09:29pm PT
deleted and start over:


so what IS with the "glorification of weapons" that happygirl refers to?

so many "no regulation of any kind" people here seem to have that pathology

they can go on and on about every kind of weapon, every kind of ammo

they wax sentimentally about killing animals (hunting) although no doubt most all of them truly can afford to buy their food at the market

they seem to get almost hysterically defensive at any suggestion that seeks to mitigate wholesale human slaughter that "it won't work" right NOW, while conveniently leaving out of their thought process that it COULD "work" years later IF put into effect NOW

they don't "need" to put thousands of rounds at targets all year around just to stay sharp enough to kill a statistically very very unlikely home intruder

so why not just say it, men "glorify" weapons because they make loud noises, are cool to talk about and fondle, and well, are manly things to play with, and god damn no one is going to take my fun sh#t away from me, I felt the same way about my cap guns when I was five. I own two handguns now, I know how to aim and shoot them, but I have not shot them in some years, nor do I give a damn to know all about the arcane details of their ballistics, I guess other things in life interest me more than my guns.

happiegrrrl

Trad climber
www.climbaddictdesigns.com
Dec 25, 2012 - 09:40pm PT
Norton - I didn't suggest "a link" of any kind. What wrote was:
this sort of glorification of weapons use seems to be not a healthy state of mind,

I think one would have to be pretty obtuse to say those images are not glorifying weaponry. And my concern is that he is considering military service with the perspective that he will be handed a gun, be told "go git it", and then be doing just that.

What would happen to a guy with that mindset, upon finding out that what he is going to be "gittin" is a lot of basic training and orientation to authority. You'd hope he would understand what starting at the bottom means, especially in military, but I am in fear he doesn't have realistic expectations. I think he wants to be a "chip off the old block" and quickly. I can't help worrying he is too itchy on the trigger, and would think that is a bad, bad, thing should he enlist.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Dec 25, 2012 - 10:21pm PT
Happie...

I've had the privilege to teach basic ice climbing to some very young Marines returning from recent tours in various recent hellholes. Officers and enlisted. Most saw some direct action.

While all of them seemed quite intelligent, they also had an almost uniform ingrained blind bravado like I've never seen before. Very much "into firearms" and totally gung-ho with an extremely aggressive attitude towards the "enemy" when those cold belay discussions turned into war stories.

Nice kids mind you but it appeared their hard experiences in real combat did not diminish their zeal for killing "the enemy". They seemed to take direction extremely well, even from me. I'd imagine they will all continue to do well in the field of combat assuming their luck holds out. What struck me the most was how 'cold' they were about fallen friends. "Sucks., but they knew what they were getting into" was a common refrain. They might not feel that way 20 years from now when they're 45. I don't know.

So I don't know the 18yr old you do, but I wouldn't worry too much about his bravado or boasting at this point. That kind of aggression and attitude can be a bit surprising but I think maybe it's required if real combat is something he seeks.

Our government puppets continue to stoke the war machine abroad for God knows what end. As long as that continues, brave young men will continue to fuel those engines with their blood. It's always been that way.

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 25, 2012 - 10:23pm PT
A substantial number of guys with the "git some" attitude go through a profound change when they experience a fight that yields gory death.

Not a guy I'd want on my six.



Saw this beauty. It is made for competition not combat (though in a pinch);

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=323444625
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Dec 25, 2012 - 10:59pm PT
Merry X-mas Coz...

No offense intended. I just feel very strongly about our brave men not being where they are currently deployed. Seems like such a waste of young souls to me.

But that's another thread....
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Dec 26, 2012 - 08:28am PT
Little boys like guns and blowing sh#t up. it's human nature. If a little but has no gun to play with he will pick up a rock or a hammer an smash sh#t with it. The little girl on the otherhand will more likly play with dolls.

We are one of the most the most fcked up species on the planet,,,
happiegrrrl

Trad climber
www.climbaddictdesigns.com
Dec 26, 2012 - 10:22am PT
Ih my nephew had been a kid like this over the years it wouldn't be of concern, but it is only over the last few months. His dad came back in July or so and I am guessing his son heard first-hand what he was seeing go on over there, or at least it was alluded to. But it was as he was readying to head back over that this weaponry stuff started.

I worry it is more about a young man and his absent father than playing Let's Blowing Sh#t Up.

climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Dec 26, 2012 - 11:00am PT
It's not unusual for young men to glorify military power and look to it as a solution for the things in the world that deeply bother them. Is it healthy? hmm.. compared to what? Being a young man is not exactly the healthiest state of being in the best cases. They drive too fast, climb with reckless abandon, party too much and all the rest of the things that go with being in your late teens to early 20s. None of it is fun to watch for the older family members who care about them.

Most of us survived it and didnt make unrecoverable mistakes.

He may indeed enlist. It may be exactly what he should do. While it is a risky job it can be a pretty decent way for a young man to grow up and learn about life. Most do survive even in wartime. Perhaps with less trouble than they would have had out unsupervised in the regular world. If part of it is trying to understand or be closer in some way to his dad, he will certainly understand a lot more from it.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Dec 26, 2012 - 11:10am PT
What i see is that the young man has pride in his fathers service and wishes to continue that. Testosterone is wild at that age, and imagination is too. If he decides to enlist , that will be tempered into function by his DIs.. And he will get a firm training of life, organization and the benefits that go with service.

Yes there are those that are happy to serve AND go to war. Some are simply warriors- I know a 78 yr old man who served four tours in Nam, and said he never had felt so alive as he did in the jungle fighting.
Does that mean he some unbalanced deranged guy out there in public now?

Well, he kayaks and fishes and hikes around Mammoth a lot. Loves talking with folks and is as nice a man as you could meet. And hes still in AWESOME shape, often another side benefit of military life.

Dont read too much into a situation that isnt there. If it werent for those types of people, we would have never became america.
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Dec 26, 2012 - 11:14am PT
Read a report the other day by a Phd that said 90 percent of mass shooters are on psychotropic drugs. I didn't see that link but here's a story about that story.

"A website called SSRI Stories has compiled a sortable database that lists over 4800 incidents of suicide, violent crimes and other incidents between 1988 and 2011, including school shootings that involve people that were prescribed SSRI medications. Here is a short list of a few more school shootings that involved SSRIs:

Steve Kazmierczak, age 27, inexplicably went on a shooting rampage on Feb. 15, 2008 in a Northern Illinois University Lecture Hall before taking his own life. He had been on Prozac, Xanax and Ambien, but had stopped taking Prozac a few weeks before the shootings. Toxicology reports showed traces of Xanax in his system. Five dead, 20 wounded.
Jeff Weise, age 16, had been prescribed 60 mg/day of Prozac (three times the average starting dose for adults) when he shot his grandfather, his grandfather’s girlfriend and many fellow students in Red Lake, Minnesota on March 24, 2005. He then shot himself. 10 dead, 12 wounded.
Cho-Seung-Hui, age 23, showed signs of anger before he went on a shooting rampage on the Virginia Tech campus that ended only after a police officer shot him dead. Officials said prescription medications related to the treatment of psychological problems had been found among Mr. Cho’s effects, but no details of his treatment or the medications have been released to the public. 33 dead, 17 wounded.
Michael Carneal (Ritalin), age 14, opened fire on students at a high school prayer meeting in West Paducah, Kentucky on Dec, 1, 1997. Three teenagers were killed, five others were wounded.

Violence involving SSRIs does not always involve firearms:

Jeff Franklin (Prozac and Ritalin), Huntsville, AL, killed his parents as they came home from work using a sledge hammer, hatchet, butcher knife and mechanic’s file, then attacked his younger brothers and sister.
Jarred Viktor, age 15, (Paxil). After five days on Paxil he stabbed his grandmother 61 times.
John Odgren, age 16, stabbed a 15-year-old student to death at Lincoln-Sudbury Regional High School in MA on Jan. 19, 2007. Odgren was being treated for Asperger's syndrome, a form of autism, as well as attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, depression and anxiety. The defense said changes in Odgren's clothing habits, as well as changes in his sleep and speech pattern, may have indicated a problem with his medication that could have lead to a manic, paranoid state.

The list of incidents like the above on SSRI stories is seemingly endless and all of the circumstances are different except for one – all of them involve a mentally ill patient on some sort of SSRI medication. ........"
locker

Social climber
state of Kumbaya...
Dec 26, 2012 - 11:25am PT


"I did not click on his link, because I left my childhood behind many decades ago"...


With your Motorcycles???...


LOL!!!...

We're ALL, just older KIDS...




EDITED:

and then of course, there's CLIMBING...

;-)

Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Dec 26, 2012 - 11:29am PT
well thats fine Norton,, but why bag on those that do collect guns?

There is beauty in craftsmanship- the mate of wood and steel. Many a collector out there that may only shoot a few out of a hundred guns they own. I have a 50 cal mtn rifle that is a gorgeous creation and a matching 50 cal pistol to go with it. Did my own scrimshaw work on them - much like any other hobby.
Because someone likes and appreciates weaponry for its craftsmanship and likes collecting doenst mean they are some gun nut that just "glorifies" weaponry..
froodish

Social climber
Portland, Oregon
Dec 26, 2012 - 11:52am PT
What struck me the most was how 'cold' they were about fallen friends. "Sucks., but they knew what they were getting into"

How is that different than what you hear from any other humans that are around death frequently? The gallows humor among emergency room nurses/doctors, or even climbers for instance. It's a way of coping.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 26, 2012 - 11:54am PT
Well I already said guards in schools was a bad idea on many levels.
I'm a big Ron Paul fan.

But jghedge betrays his ignorance on the subject of collecting guns if he thinks non-operable firearms retain their value.
They might be antiquated but shooting them can be fun.
I even wrote a thread about a single action Sharps competition I was in last year.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Dec 26, 2012 - 11:57am PT
well thats fine Norton,, but why bag on those that do collect guns?



well, because after reading countless posts from people like you who offer NO solutions other than more guns, I guess I feel that I too have a right to offer my own opinions

and if it ruffles some feathers, well then so be it

edit: by the way, I also "collect guns" so I am not bagging on people who own guns


and Locker, I get your point that I like messing with my motorcycles

but surely you would agree that they are not the subject of discussion?
locker

Social climber
state of Kumbaya...
Dec 26, 2012 - 12:04pm PT

"and Locker, I get your point that I like messing with my motorcycles

but surely you would agree that they are not the subject of discussion?"
...



I'm certain that you know what I was getting at...

;-)
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Dec 26, 2012 - 12:05pm PT
There are 98,817 public schools in America, not counting Private ones.

There are 683,396 full time state, city, university and college, metropolitan and non-metropolitan county, and other law enforcement officers in the United States.

Think hiring another 100,000 cops would create a budget problem? Think you could save more than 20-30 lives a year (number of students gunned down) by spending over 10 billion dollars (conservatively) on new police

The NRA has a stupid problem (or actually, a beholden to the gun manufacturers problem)

peace

Karl
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Dec 26, 2012 - 12:20pm PT
The NRA has a stupid problem (or actually, a beholden to the gun manufacturers problem)

And don't forget the base. Those fine up standing citizens who wouldn't accept reasonable limitations upon gun ownership for an abundantly obvious social good - something that has been demonstrated and proven effective and not onerously limiting on individual freedoms in many similar democracies world wide.

They have a moral problem.

donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Dec 26, 2012 - 12:24pm PT
Moral problem, certainly....but stupidity is still the best descriptive word to explain their behavior.
happiegrrrl

Trad climber
www.climbaddictdesigns.com
Dec 26, 2012 - 12:31pm PT
JHedge - About collectibles - As an example, I make hair accessories from vintage sewing buttons. My favorites are the ones which were designed in the advent of the industrial revolution, when artisans used the new electric tools to take their craft to a higher level, before the race to the cheapest began.

I pride, and use as a selling point, the fact that I do not alter the buttons to create the accessories, which most button crafters do. Altering them(cutting off shank, gluing to a backing) renders the button non-function in it's original purpose. It goes beyond diminishing their value as a collectible item, making them worthless except in the most rare of cases.

I would guess it is similar with guns.


About my nephew - Though I am still worried, I appreciate the perspective some of you guys have provided. I have decided that for now I will not say anything to my sister, unless she brings the topic up, and if she does, will refer her to those comments, which may help her as well. (Not saying that I think he is "AOkay, but that my fears have been put in another perspective).
locker

Social climber
state of Kumbaya...
Dec 26, 2012 - 12:32pm PT


"yeah, the fact that adults, like me, like playing with the same toys they did when they were much younger


some things you just never grow tired of"
...


Like GUNS for instance...

and now we're right back where we started...

LOL!!!...

Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Dec 26, 2012 - 12:49pm PT
As an example, I make hair accessories from vintage sewing buttons.


Intriguing. Pictures please. Its like soloing.... Without pictures it never happened.

As well I think I'd way rather see that than those revolting pony pictures. Perhaps whenever this thread spirals out of control you could bring us all back to earth with photos of various damsels in hair regalia?
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 26, 2012 - 12:50pm PT
I said for historical or display purposes, not for resale

LOL
It is so much fun to converse with knowledgeable individuals!
My mom was a guide at the Metropolitan Museum, owners of the most valuable firearms in history, the dueling pistols that were presented to Catherine The Great.
You ougtta give them a call and explain why they should render those beauties inoperable!
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Dec 26, 2012 - 12:56pm PT
Well who do you think FIRST suggested armed guards at schools???

WILLIAM JEFFERSON CLINTON...Thats who. A while ago too.

But now the NRA does so it has to be evil right?
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Dec 26, 2012 - 12:58pm PT
no,, not even close..
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 26, 2012 - 12:58pm PT
Anders, that argument works for everyone!
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Dec 26, 2012 - 12:59pm PT
http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/336457/clinton-who-proposed-cops-school-program-help-senate-democrats-draft-gun-control-legis#


http://www.topix.com/forum/indy/TGV4LOFT6HADJEOBH
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Dec 26, 2012 - 01:02pm PT
annnnd???
jstan

climber
Dec 26, 2012 - 01:03pm PT
Rule #1 in conflict is you must employ whatever tools are being used by your opponent. What armed security person would be willing to go up against a bushmaster with only a handgun? So the NRA's proposal can only result in school security personnel being armed with something like bushmasters and walking around in kevlar suits. We may expect the suggestion that only one guard is needed in a school will be immediately faulted. It is a low ball proposal that will be found inadequate immediately as a school with only one guard is sued.

Furthermore the proposal assumes at the outset that armed guards will solve the problem. That shooters will be dissuaded from choosing schools as the place to act out their terminal dramas. If it does not, we will have kids in the middle of firefights involving military hardware. That sounds more like a problem than a solution.

The following a blog by C.E. Gant an MD in Integrative and Functional Medicine

School Violence
The following are reports of teens committing acts of school violence during an 18 year period from 1988-2006 (footnote 3), beginning only one year after the first SSRI antidepressant was approved for the U.S. market for adult use only. More than half of the teens committing these acts were taking SSRI antidepressants.........
http://cegant.com/commentary/school-shootings-and-psychiatric-drugs

Whatever else we do, we need seriously to investigate to see what portion of the problem is pharmacological in origin.

Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Dec 26, 2012 - 01:04pm PT
Ron, of course Clinton suggested guns in schools. He's from Arkansas.

or was it Navadastan?
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Dec 26, 2012 - 01:05pm PT
tell that to the man that went up against an armed man with a rifle, using just a 9mm handgun - forcing the shooter to shoot himself. (Clacamus OR)


kinda strikes me funny ,, that one of the Democratic Presidents suggested that, but when the NRA does,, its stooopud..


You do know there is an assualt weapons ban in CONN right?? You really think legislation and a host of new laws are going to affect those that have evil in mind? They never have, and never will.
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Dec 26, 2012 - 01:06pm PT
Tell that to Columbine who had an armed deputy sherriff who shot at the perps but did not prevent a massacre.
coppertone

Trad climber
CT
Dec 26, 2012 - 01:08pm PT
Join us and help us move the conversation and action forward. We can no longer sit idly by and allow this to happen to our children and all of the other innocent victims of gun violence. Take an active part. Call your local, state and federal representatives and let them know how you feel. We in Newtown are going to do everything we can to make meaningful changes in our country. We need everyones help and participation.

https://www.facebook.com/NewtownUnited

There will be a website very soon. If this country can't move forward toward meaningful change after this and the horrible gun violence since in Webster NY, Pensylvania and many other places then I fear that nothing will ever get done and we will continue down the road to NRA Armagedon where your doctor will be strapped in the delivery room when he is delivering your baby.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Dec 26, 2012 - 01:10pm PT
I'm a little surprised that those who have seen combat would glorify guns or violence. Most combat vets I know abhor war. Most of the WWII and Korean War vets who raised my contemporaries didn't even want to talk about it.

I think the NRA, whose "solution" to the problem of mass school shooting is, indeed stupid, blew it here. TO get to a real solution, start with reality. As I understand it, there are at least 200,000,000 operable firearms in private hands in this country. The issue isn't what would happen if we removed most of them, because that begs the questions of how we accomplish this. A more realistic question is: what will happen in both the short- and long-run if we enacted legislation, consistent with the Second Amendment, restricting their use? What would happen if we asked the same question, but included the possibility of amending the Second Amendment?

My own belief is that the history of Prohibition should make us wary of trying to rely on legislation restricting firearms ownership as a means of deterring gun violence. Certainly the violence in Mexico -- a country that restricts legal firearms ownership much more severely than does the United States -- doesn't give me cause for hope.

If I want to be even more dismal, I'm not sure I trust the bureaucrats who make governmental decisions to make good choices over who is and isn't fit to possess firearms.

My own bottom line remains that the sorts of large-scale restrictions on gun ownership proposed by anti-gun "nuts" would be, at best, ineffective and, at worst, counterproductive. We do need to strengthen the aid we give to those suffering from mental illness, and we also need to close loopholes that allow people to obtain firearms legally without some reasonable waiting period to allow for a background check.

Beyond that, we're fooling ourselves, and we're ignoring the reality that overall murder rates have declined precipitously in the last 20 years, at least. While it might help if we didn't spend weeks of headlines keeping these sorts of events front-and-center, I know of no empirical evidence that shows that it will deter others who want notoriety, and it won't happen anyway, given the First Amendment and the desire of the press to make money by selling the sensational.

Sorry, but I don't see a "big fix" here. We aren't going to become Europe, with much smaller amounts of firearms in private hands, by simple legislation. This county made that decision more that two centuries ago. We need to spend more time dealing with problems we can solve.

John
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 26, 2012 - 01:11pm PT
+100 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


jstan,

the motto at the Gunsite Training Facility is "any gun will do if YOU will do".

Your assessment is too simplistic and does not account for advantages like surveillance, surprise, superior knowledge of environment, etc.
There ARE some LEOs that don't run away crying about how the bad guy has a better gun.
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Dec 26, 2012 - 01:11pm PT
Rongo, Connecticut has a VERY LIMITED assault weapon ban. The Bushmaster he used is legal in Connecticut, but not in CA.

No limit on magazine capacity.

Not much of a ban.



Top weapon with the large clip is legal in Connecticut, bottom one is not, because copies of banned weapons are legal.

You call that a ban?
happiegrrrl

Trad climber
www.climbaddictdesigns.com
Dec 26, 2012 - 01:19pm PT
Perhaps whenever this thread spirals out of control you could bring us all back to earth with photos of various damsels in hair regalia?

Isn't that what the Boobs thread was for? And how well did that work????

Buuut.... my young nephew posted an image on his FB that would have done the Boobs thread proud just a few minutes ago, so maybe he is just a normal young man after all...

I did click through and the site suggested some other things I might be interested in. And one was a "PhotoShop Fail" page. I thought this one might go well calming down the testosterone-infused posting here.
Credit: happiegrrrl






hee hee heee - sorry, couldn't help myself.
jstan

climber
Dec 26, 2012 - 01:20pm PT
There ARE some LEOs that don't run away crying about how the bad guy has a better gun.

Ron that may well be. But I also don't see our marines in fire fights using single shot hand guns.

Edit:

Ron, my point is the discussion the two of us are having will become a hot topic at the first fire fight. And this thread shows pretty clearly how it will go.
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Dec 26, 2012 - 01:25pm PT
jezuz...... thats where she carries her gun!?!!
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 26, 2012 - 01:31pm PT
Kali cops don't walk around with ARs, but after North Hollywood (where LEOs returned fire with handguns against body armored drugged maniacs with full auto AKs and got the job DONE!) you can bet they carry them in their kit.

So what is your point jstan?
locker

Social climber
state of Kumbaya...
Dec 26, 2012 - 01:35pm PT

LOL!!!...

"When I take walks I carry it with me so I can kill a duck down by the river."...

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 26, 2012 - 01:42pm PT
I didn't quite catch that jghedge, how many gun related deaths by your count in the UK?
I think you need to repeat it.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Dec 26, 2012 - 01:45pm PT
uhhuh Locker,, and i knew who that one was pointed at !



Mallard melody:  Marinate stripped breast meat over night in JACKDANIE...
Mallard melody: Marinate stripped breast meat over night in JACKDANIELS marinade of you fav taste, Then in a pan, add mushrooms , red bell pepper, a pinch of thyme garlic, pepper and salt and some beef bullion- simmer until just barely cooked- DO NOT OV
Credit: Ron Anderson


only Norton prolly couldnt hit a duck..;-)
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 26, 2012 - 01:53pm PT
WARNING, SEVERE HYPOCRASY ALERT!

this just in from kennyt on the BD thread;
Perhaps we have over regulated ourselves to death
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Dec 26, 2012 - 01:54pm PT
Why are there any gun deaths in the UK, jghedge?

Thirty-five dead proves gun control failed, yet you stubbornly advocate for it.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Dec 26, 2012 - 01:58pm PT
Hedge the UK calls you... Time for a move perhaps??
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Dec 26, 2012 - 02:04pm PT
35 gun related deaths in the UK last year proves you wrong, obviously

What is the greatest proportion of firearms in private hands in the UK ever, Joe? You miss my point completely, because you fail to state how we reduce the 200,000,000+ firearms in private hands. The Second Amendment right to keep and bear arms has no equivalent in the United Kingdom, nor in most of Europe. They never had the sorts of numbers of privately-owned firearms we do. About the only exception of which I'm aware is Switzerland which, to my recollection, has very high individual gun possession and very low firearms violence. In any case, we're starting in 21st Century America, not from a clean slate.

Your attempt at the anti-slavery analogy is even more strained and inappropriate. The 13th Amendment did not result in more slavery. In contrast, there is rather scant evidence that enactment of gun restriction legislation within the contemporary United States -- or any other society with a similar proliferation of gun ownership -- would result in lower gun violence. Indeed, the Mexican experience suggests otherwise.

John
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Dec 26, 2012 - 02:04pm PT
and a lot of good that has done huh Hedge?

You do of course realize EVIL doenst follow "laws"...




edit: Im reminded of something long ago, when i worked at Animal Artistry in Reno. We were doing an African Lion piece, Male, female and two kittens ( the kittens were zoo fatalities).

I had a rather "liberal" woman working for me in my dept, who just assumed those kittens were killed along with the male and female. She yammered on of how cruel this all was- how she was soo shocked etc etc etc.
I could barley get a word in edge wise as she wouldnt listen.. I ended up telling her ,,Nawww they just blew em out of the womb! The look on her face,, PRICLESS!

Some here remind me of her..
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Dec 26, 2012 - 02:19pm PT
Working within constitutional, legal, and financial constraints, a reasonable solution might be something like the following:

1. Legalize marijuana and any similar 'soft' drugs, tax the crap out of it and the fools who use it, use that money for worthwhile purposes. May increase public respect for laws having some rational basis, plus undercuts gangs and others, reduces "crime" and prison costs.

2. Federal prohibition on importing and owning automatic, semi-automatic and assault weapons, and similar. Exceptions based on proven need. Buy back/permanent disabling program for existing weapons, with amnesty period.

3. Federal regulations controlling all manufacture, purchase, sale, and ownership of non-prohibited weapons, e.g. rifles, shotguns, handguns. Setting clear requirements, e.g. that all weapons be registered, safely stored (locks), purchasers go through waiting periods and background checks, and no consumer-consumer ('gun show') sales. Regulations clear, but largely state-administered, with BATF oversight to ensure fair play.

4. Immediate induction into the military of all those who want to own automatic, semi-automatic and assault weapons. Either that, or send them to re-education camps. (OK, I'm joking about this one. Sort of.)

5. Appropriate transitional measures, e.g. ensuring that the new laws are immediately challenged in the courts, and upheld by the supreme court, so finally putting to rest the more extreme fantasies about the second amendment. Even the most constitution-distorting version of "states' rights" and "strict constructionism" will allow reasonable regulation of firearms.

The result would be like the health care reforms that were upheld last summer. It'd take 5 - 10 years to fully implement, is really only a partial solution, but at least represents some progress.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Dec 26, 2012 - 02:23pm PT
Hedge "looking forward to that very much" as he talks about military attacks on our own citizenry...




And whos the friggin enemy here?
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 26, 2012 - 02:24pm PT
Although all it will really take is one group of armed insurrectionists, holed up in their compound, vs. one Apache helicopter, broadcast on the news, and the whole delusional, adolescent Gun Nut movement will start rapidly disintegrating

That must explain why our government hasn't rolled armor on civilians in the 2 decades since Waco,..
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Dec 26, 2012 - 02:26pm PT
jghedge writes:

"And of course it will take a while to get rid of all of them, but a lot of idiots like yourself will die in firefights trying to hold onto them, so we'll be ridding society of 2 problems at once"



You're suggesting the government conduct a shooting war vs it's own citizenry, and then you wonder why nobody is hopping aboard any of your asinine ideas.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Dec 26, 2012 - 02:27pm PT
Thanks for injecting some thought into the debate, Anders. I wonder, though, what the effect would be of the bans and controls you propose. I doubt that criminals who use illegal firearms would turn theirs in, but I think this proposal would likely lower the incidence of the sorts of attacks perpetrated at Sandy Hook, because the potential mass killers would need to work harder to get their weapons. The unanswered question is whether the full-time violent (as opposed to the one-time violent) would be more formidable with a less well-armed civilian population.

John
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Dec 26, 2012 - 02:30pm PT
Ask yourself how many MORE ILLEGAL GANG member we have this last year alone,, then multiply that figure ahead, and also count two weapons for everyone of em,, not ONE registered or legal.



And you want to take MY semi autos??? HELL NO would be my answer.

the government DOES NOT PROTECT ME from these gangs, and in fact have "hands off " policies in place right now.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Dec 26, 2012 - 02:37pm PT
And of course it will take a while to get rid of all of them, but a lot of idiots like yourself will die in firefights trying to hold onto them, so we'll be ridding society of 2 problems at once

Although all it will really take is one group of armed insurrectionists, holed up in their compound, vs. one Apache helicopter, broadcast on the news, and the whole delusional, adolescent Gun Nut movement will start rapidly disintegrating


Hedge, not to be rude but you seem to be the only one here who's obsessed with firearms and violence. Penises it would seem too.

And there you go again with what seem like disturbing wishes of fictional armed insurrectionists being slaughtered on TV. Are you on meds?

What you should try to realize, is that 99.999999% of legal gun owners/enthusiasts out there are responsible, sane, and not the least bit thinking about killing or harming anyone. The statistics prove that out. I know that's hard for you to accept.

Laws are at best a blunt instrument for herding the willing sheep. They have never, and will never, change the evil intent of men.
kennyt

climber
Woodfords,California
Dec 26, 2012 - 02:38pm PT
Joker Vilian,I'm afraid I can just see the difference between regulating assault rifles as compared to a business.Thanks'for your opinion. Oh don't worry the sores should clearup in a few days.
Credit: kennyt
EDIT: Correct spelling is Hypocrisy
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Dec 26, 2012 - 02:38pm PT
HEDGE????
HEDGE????

this YOU Hedge?
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Dec 26, 2012 - 02:45pm PT
Well, JE, there does seem a need for more education. For example, that the rate of violent/firearm crime in the US (and Canada) has steadily and significantly dropped over the last 30 years - with exceptions, of course. There's no doubt about it, although there is debate as to the reasons. Also, beliefs that ownership of more/bigger weapons will actually protect a member of the general public, without significant, regular training and considerable luck. As pointed out elsewhere, the likelihood that even a trained, prepared person with a handgun is going to slow down let alone stop someone with an assault rifle is pretty small - if nothing else, an assault rifle is much more accurate at a distance.

You're probably right - it'd take longer for tighter laws to affect ownership by serious criminals of prohibited weapons, than for the public as a whole. (Not that career criminals usually indulge in mass murder of innocents...) Either way, they won't care, and in any case really only the police have the equipment and skills to take care of them. Serious criminals usually don't prey directly on the general public anyway.

If it simply reduces the number of repeated grotesque mass murders, that'd be a good start. You have to start somewhere.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Dec 26, 2012 - 02:47pm PT
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/10/311


Recognized LEGALLY are two types of militias in this country..

A) Naval and Natl guard militias

B) "unorganized" militias consisting of members NOT in the NAVAL and NATL guard.
eeyonkee

Trad climber
Golden, CO
Dec 26, 2012 - 02:52pm PT
Well said, MH.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Dec 26, 2012 - 02:52pm PT
which of the HUNDREDS of KNOWN out there would you like me to mention...Of course i cant begin to tally the unknowns.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Dec 26, 2012 - 03:01pm PT
1st MI Volunteers..

You WONT find their "website".. They ARENT that stupid...

Just realize the LAWS say anyone can be part of a militia. Even an "unorganized" one.

One of the largest organized militia was known as Civil Defense for a long time.



edit: yeah Hedge,, you WONT FIND EM ON GOOGLE.. Imagine that....

So,, is that pic i posted YOU?
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Dec 26, 2012 - 03:10pm PT
Yup Riley,, once upon a time,, there was a FAMILY UNIT,,and kids didnt raise themselves, but times have changed. The family unit is getting more rare by the week, and we allow all manner of the most vile filth to grace mass media in the name of freedom. Porno , sites like ROTTEN DOT COM, (which make me,, a gun nut taxidermist and someone that has seen death,, ILL), schools that no longer can control their students legally, have invited a mass of illegal third world peoples here that include the worst of that third world- which pales ours in comparison, and seen fit to remove the death penalties for viscious crimes, let convicted mass murderers like Charles Manson go on and on, book after book, movie after movie.. Yep FREEdom,, but its NEVER FREE..



Hedge I ask again, is that picture i posted YOU? You GOTS the big mouff, proven in every one of your posts.. But i havent seen any sackage.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Dec 26, 2012 - 03:15pm PT
jghedge writes:

"Wouldn't something have to be organized before it could be regulated?"


Who is to do the regulating?
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Dec 26, 2012 - 03:15pm PT
Hedge,,is that picture YOU??


And hedge,, why do you think malitias of private citizens remain that way? Because of IDOITS like you...
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Dec 26, 2012 - 03:28pm PT
Parenting and family units have never never been more healthy or more strong.
All that stuff you wrote is delusion.

Two generations ago most fathers were spending their nights in the bar and beating their kids either verbally or physically.
What you write is not backed up by anecdotal or statistical data.
A bad dad is the exception these days and not the rule.

That's a surprising observation to me, Riley. What I've seen here in the poverty capital of California is that there are fewer dads around, period. I'd love to see statistics that show if or how the family unit has changed since, say, the end of World War II. I'm hoping you, or another reader, can point me to them.

Thanks.

john
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Dec 26, 2012 - 03:30pm PT
Riley,, i dont know where you have been,, but a DAD is an exception these days for those Women ive know in the past. Ive delt with many that had kids, while trying to be the bread maker, and while they made the bread, the kids went to ROTTEN DOT COM for entertainment..

Only two couples out of the throngs i know from around here have made it long term. Otherwise, its a trail of divorces, broken homes, and some very out of control kids. I not saying single parents DONT raise good kids, but ,, i AM saying MANY DONT. That, not from any site, article or anything other than experience.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Dec 26, 2012 - 03:31pm PT
Riley,

Obviously there have always been violent people and that will never change. You need to seperate those people's violent tendencies from whatever tools they choose to harm people with. Such a person is a threat no matter what.

If firearms did indeed 'cause' people to become violent you'd be staring at a statistical vertical wall over the past few years. That hasn't happened, in fact, it's declined.

I agree that the recent crop of first-person shoot 'em ups can't be good for small kids and young adolescents. I didn't play these until my early 30's and was amazed at the level of detail and life-like graphics. Pretending to be sneaking up behind people and shooting them in the head or slicing their necks can't be a good thing for a developing mind. I could certainly see something like this contributing to future aggression and violence.

I still think the recent bumper crop of mass-random killings/stabbings/etc is the cusp of something very different. These are psychotic breaks where the killer generally kills themselves. We already have absolute proof that other drugs can cause such psychotic rage. There's no reason to suspect the possibility otherwise with the latest multi-billion dollar bumper crop of head 'medications'.

Why is it we've seen no lists of everything these killers was taking?

What's the first question you ask when someone gets on the highway going the wrong way and kills a bunch of people? "What brand of car was it? How big was his car?".

And the NRA does not speak for anyone but the NRA... their response was predictable, albeit stupid.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Dec 26, 2012 - 03:45pm PT
Top 10 myths about mass shootings



Even before the death toll in last Friday’s school massacre in Newtown, Conn., was determined, politicians, pundits, and professors of varied disciplines were all over the news, pushing their proposals for change. Some talked about the role of guns, others about mental-health services, and still more about the need for better security in schools and other public places. Whatever their agenda and the passion behind it, those advocates made certain explicit or implied assumptions about patterns in mass murder and the profile of the assailants. Unfortunately, those assumptions do not always align with the facts.


Myth: Mass shootings are on the rise.
Reality: Over the past three decades, there has been an average of 20 mass shootings a year in the United States, each with at least four victims killed by gunfire. Occasionally, and mostly by sheer coincidence, several episodes have been clustered closely in time. Over all, however, there has not been an upward trajectory. To the contrary, the real growth has been in the style and pervasiveness of news-media coverage, thanks in large part to technological advances in reporting.

Myth: Mass murderers snap and kill indiscriminately.
Reality: Mass murderers typically plan their assaults for days, weeks, or months. They are deliberate in preparing their missions and determined to follow through, no matter what impediments are placed in their path.

Myth: Enhanced background checks will keep dangerous weapons out of the hands of these madmen.
Reality: Most mass murderers do not have criminal records or a history of psychiatric hospitalization. They would not be disqualified from purchasing their weapons legally. Certainly, people cannot be denied their Second Amendment rights just because they look strange or act in an odd manner. Besides, mass killers could always find an alternative way of securing the needed weaponry, even if they had to steal from family members or friends.

Myth: Restoring the federal ban on assault weapons will prevent these horrible crimes.
Reality: The overwhelming majority of mass murderers use firearms that would not be restricted by an assault-weapons ban. In fact, semiautomatic handguns are far more prevalent in mass shootings. Of course, limiting the size of ammunition clips would at least force a gunman to pause to reload or switch weapons.

Myth: Greater attention and response to the telltale warning signs will allow us to identify would-be mass killers before they act.
Reality: While there are some common features in the profile of a mass murderer (depression, resentment, social isolation, tendency to blame others for their misfortunes, fascination with violence, and interest in weaponry), those characteristics are all fairly prevalent in the general population. Any attempt to predict would produce many false positives. Actually, the telltale warning signs come into clear focus only after the deadly deed.

Myth: Widening the availability of mental-health services and reducing the stigma associated with mental illness will allow unstable individuals to get the treatment they need.
Reality: With their tendency to externalize blame and see themselves as victims of mistreatment, mass murderers perceive the problem to be in others, not themselves. They would generally resist attempts to encourage them to seek help. And, besides, our constant references to mass murderers as “wackos” or “sickos” don’t do much to destigmatize the mentally ill.

Myth: Increasing security in schools and other places will deter mass murder.
Reality: Most security measures will serve only as a minor inconvenience for those who are dead set on mass murder. If anything, excessive security and a fortress-like environment serve as a constant reminder of danger and vulnerability.

Myth: Students need to be prepared for the worst by participating in lockdown drills.
Reality: Lockdown drills can be very traumatizing, especially for young children. Also, it is questionable whether they would recall those lessons amid the hysteria associated with an actual shooting. The faculty and staff need to be adequately trained, and the kids just advised to listen to instructions. Schools should take the same low-key approach to the unlikely event of a shooting as the airlines do to the unlikely event of a crash. Passengers aren’t drilled in evacuation procedures but can assume the crew is sufficiently trained.

Myth: Expanding “right to carry” provisions will deter mass killers or at least stop them in their tracks and reduce the body counts.
Reality: Mass killers are often described by surviving witnesses as being relaxed and calm during their rampages, owing to their level of planning. In contrast, the rest of us are taken by surprise and respond frantically. A sudden and wild shootout involving the assailant and citizens armed with concealed weapons would potentially catch countless innocent victims in the crossfire.

Myth: We just need to enforce existing gun laws as well as increase the threat of the death penalty.
Reality: Mass killers typically expect to die, usually by their own hand or else by first responders. Nothing in the way of prosecution or punishment would divert them from their missions. They are ready to leave their miserable existence, but want some payback first.


In the immediate aftermath of the Newtown school shootings, there seems to be great momentum to establish policies and procedures designed to make us all safer. Sensible gun laws, affordable mental-health care, and reasonable security measures are all worthwhile, and would enhance the well being of millions of Americans. They may do much to impact the level of violent crime that plagues our nation daily. We shouldn’t, however, expect such efforts to take a big bite out of crime in its most extreme form. Of course, a nibble or two from the prevalence of mass murder would be reason enough. And efforts to promote real change in our social policies would be a fitting legacy to the tragedy in Newtown.

http://boston.com/community/blogs/crime_punishment/2012/12/top_10_myths_about_mass_shooti.html
Note: A version of this blog post appeared in the Chronicle of Higher Education.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Dec 26, 2012 - 03:46pm PT
Hedge,, i ask again is that picture you,, or do you have no inner fortitude to post other than as some anonymous twit..
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Dec 26, 2012 - 04:01pm PT
Myth: Mass shootings are on the rise.


The mass shooting element is just a symptom of the main problem. As hienous as it is, the real issue is death by gun per capita, which is clearly a function to a large degree of availability of weaponry. Mass shootings won't go away with lessened availability of guns, but it is logical to assume that they will become more difficult to inflict.

For practical purposes forget about the mass shootings. In the week following the conneticut shooting something like 150 less spectacular gun fatalities occurred in America with little fan fare.

If the per capita death rate was caused by a cancer with a clear link to a particular environmental cause such as cigarettes, there would be holy hell to pay ....... despite the fact that some as#@&%es really like their cigarettes.
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Dec 26, 2012 - 04:43pm PT
Hire Ninja females this should work

Credit: lostinshanghai

But for 30 round magazines being banned what about these babies. What is stopping these from being used.

Credit: lostinshanghai

Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Dec 26, 2012 - 04:45pm PT
Norton, the section in your post doesnt indicate that crime in general has gone down where CCW laws are in effect. It only speaks of mass killings.

Much like the press only goes on and on about MASS killings while seemingly ignoring a larger tally of daily deaths weekly. The government doesnt seem particularly disturbed over that as well. given those obvious facts, manipulations are surely taking place over this. I distrust the motives in general when considering the daily rates that are largely ignored by the press and government. I have to wonder why there are ANY "known" gang members here illegally..That seems to be two strikes from the git go does it not? Yet this too is ignored by the press and government. Not even my local sheriff can do anything about that.
The odds are far greater that you will suffer from an attack, robbery, or burglary by a gang or gang member than a mass killing. But never mind that.
10b4me

Boulder climber
Somewhere on 395
Dec 26, 2012 - 04:46pm PT
Joe, do you suffer from OCD?
you need to remind us how much you "liked" Michael Reardon.

Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Dec 26, 2012 - 05:03pm PT
Aren't most schools with on-site security/police, and secured entrances and inspections, high schools, many of them in inner cities, where the main safety problem is students bringing in weapons?
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Dec 26, 2012 - 05:06pm PT
Norton, the section in your post doesnt indicate that crime in general has gone down where CCW laws are in effect. It only speaks of mass killings.

Ron, statistics are clear that violent crime has decreased since the early 90s EVERYWHERE. CCW or not, it's declined. Guns or not, it's declined. Can't pin that on CCW at all. Sorry.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Dec 26, 2012 - 05:10pm PT
Crimpie, are there not states or cities, counties etc that saw a noticeable reduction in crime just after enacting CCW laws.?



edit: MH,, Carson high school has had an armed "campus cop" for as long as i remember. But they also brought in police to quell a large fight and they were there for a week.
locker

Social climber
state of Kumbaya...
Dec 26, 2012 - 05:15pm PT


I THINK this is correct...

"Aren't most schools with on-site security/police, and secured entrances and inspections, high schools, many of them in inner cities, where the main safety problem is students bringing in weapons?"...



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