Does the NRA have a stupid pill problem?

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TwistedCrank

climber
Dingleberry Gulch, Ideeho
Topic Author's Original Post - Dec 21, 2012 - 01:01pm PT
Just askin.



Yeah, I want my kids going to school where they got armed guards marching patrol around the perimeter. You might as well send them to prison.



Stupid fukks, the NRA.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Dec 21, 2012 - 01:06pm PT
Indeed....

I find it strange that neither side the the "gun issue" is willing to look into direct causation of psychotropic meds in these cases.

All just have a vague "mental health" mention. Whatever the Hell that means.

None of these recent killers were insane raging psychotics before.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 21, 2012 - 01:06pm PT

We all need to sit down and have a discussion of the role of the press in our society. Does it keep us safer? Or does it encourage more attacks putting more children in danger?
It is time to forget the politics of a free-press and instead think of the larger questions like the safety of our children.

We’re not talking about taking away the BullStreamMedia First Amendment rights; we’re only talking about cutting the carnage brought about by Assault Journalism.

Does the BSM really need high-capacity magazines?

Does the BSM really need 5 minute clips?

The 1st amendment guarantees the freedom of the press but that isn’t an unlimited right by any means. The 1st amendment was written back in a time of printed media that traveled at the speed of a horse.

There is no way the founding fathers could have known how media technology would evolve.

These days the BSM can operate at the speed of light, with video cameras shooting at least 30 frames a second. They could not have envisioned high-capacity magazines that can shoot out reams of lies before they need to be reloaded with the next issue.

They could not have envisioned the private sale of Media outside the control of the government, private Media that could easily set off the next lunatic on a spree of carnage.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Dec 21, 2012 - 01:09pm PT
Don't know about the NRA but I am positive the NBA has an unlimited supply.
Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
Dec 21, 2012 - 01:14pm PT
I find it strange that neither side the the "gun issue" is willing to look into direct causation of psychotropic meds in these cases.

That's because there is no cause and effect. You've got your cause & effect mixed up. It's the underlying mental illness that is the cause, not the drugs used to treat people who are mentally ill.


locker

Social climber
state of Kumbaya...
Dec 21, 2012 - 01:16pm PT

"None of these recent killers were insane raging psychotics before"...



Mental illness can manifest later in ones life...

Schizophrenia for one might not appear until one is in their 20's (or later)...

So your thinking is a bit FAULTY...

http://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/publications/schizophrenia/when-does-schizophrenia-start-and-who-gets-it.shtml



donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Dec 21, 2012 - 01:26pm PT
Shiver.....with NRA pronouncements I feel the breath of evil incarnate.
moosedrool

Trad climber
lost, far away from Poland
Dec 21, 2012 - 01:35pm PT
+1 donini
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Dec 21, 2012 - 01:35pm PT
They must have gotten their Stupid Pills from Barbara Boxer.

Only Boxer's hooked on the full-strength ones! Boxer thinks the National Guard needs to be deployed to schools.

http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/la-pn-sen-boxer-national-guard-schools-20121219,0,7530900.story





Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Dec 21, 2012 - 01:51pm PT
Building a bomb isn't a knee jerk reaction. It would take some effort and time.

Grabbing a gun and going postal is the definition of knee jerk reaction.

How about regulating more strongly, or banning, large capacity clips for semi auto weapons?
jstan

climber
Dec 21, 2012 - 01:53pm PT
We all need to sit down and have a discussion of the role of the press in our society. Does it keep us safer?

Definitely. And yes they are keeping us safer. If the press were not there we would probably be quicker to sweep this all under the rug and to do nothing. I know this gives a problem to those who believe a closet full of bushmasters will allow them to overthrow the government or beat back a party of Seals attacking their home. But let's face it. When you balance doing nothing to prevent the slaughter of six year olds in their school, versus the pleasure of having a deluded belief

the choice is pretty simple.

And yes we hope very fervently this will not stop with outlawing civil purchase of additional combat weapons and outlawing civil ownership of large magazines.

The weapons are not even the major question that will come up. Not even. We will have to consider the tradeoffs involved in the Federal government monitoring internet searches, all internet searches, to try and discover who might be getting the information they need to prepare for a slaughter.

That will be a real question. I wish I could say I thought a complete ban on any possession of combat weapons would relieve us of the need for such monitoring. But I doubt it.

If anyone wants to become an insurgent Iraq has shown them how to do it. Suicide bombs and IED's. Combat weapons are not even the way.

zBrown

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Dec 21, 2012 - 01:59pm PT
What stops a bad guy from having a gun is the correct question at this point.

donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Dec 21, 2012 - 02:09pm PT
Low information voter....let's see, that might be someone who believes in creationism and doesn't think that human caused global warming is factual. Now what party do you think such a person would vote for?
atchafalaya

Boulder climber
Dec 21, 2012 - 02:12pm PT
"A totalitarian state run by the all- knowing, all- seeing , and ever -compassionate liberal intellectual elite empowered by the government -dependent masses."

Hahahahahaha... Its posts like this that are the strongest argument for controlling assault weapons.
Roadie

Trad climber
Bishop, Ca
Dec 21, 2012 - 02:15pm PT
While the NRA does not weigh in on non-gun issues it seems like many of its members are also staunch Tea-party supporters. I wonder who the NRA thinks is going to end up paying for all those armed, and hopefully trained, school guards.
Maybe the NRA could pick up the tab.
Just a thought.
zBrown

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Dec 21, 2012 - 02:16pm PT
A totalitarian state run by the all- knowing, all- seeing , and ever -compassionate liberal intellectual elite empowered by the government -dependent masses.
They will fix everything.

The correct question here is how is someone as stupid as you to be prevented from owning a gun or even appearing in public. Time for you to crawl back into your survivalist cave.

JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Dec 21, 2012 - 02:19pm PT
Don't know about the NRA but I am positive the NBA has an unlimited supply.

Excellent, although I think the NRA's proposal is right up there, too.

Jstan, I wish I could be more sanguine on the role of the media in all this. Unfortunately, the role of the media has not changed since the inception of our Republic -- it is to sell its product. Whether it's Hearst ginning up hysteria over the Maine or the modern press making you think the murder rate is spiraling upward (rather than the truth, viz. downward), they're just trying to create enough of a sensation to get us to buy their wares.

Sad to say, the vast majority of the American public has no taste for facts, so no one reports mere facts except for a very few outlets. There's clearly a market for objective news; otherwise the Wall Street Journal would be out of business, given its rather high price with no free access. Unfortunately, that market is apparently pretty small. The New York Times might still be doing OK, but most other news organizations that report with any depth are in deep financial trouble.

If we could change that, we'd be on to something. Since I don't see that changing, we need to work with what we have. The media's going orgasmic over the possibility of using this latest tragedy to make illegal use of firearms more illegal was not one of the media's finer hours.

John
atchafalaya

Boulder climber
Dec 21, 2012 - 02:22pm PT
"Controlling assault weapons won't stop those events from happening"

I agree, but it makes sense to try to keep guns out of delusional idiots hands. And so I support any regulation that make it more difficult/impossible to obtain those weapons.
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Dec 21, 2012 - 02:27pm PT
So, is this a 'diss the tea party' thread?

If so, I'm all in. F*#k 'em.
wayne w

Trad climber
the nw
Dec 21, 2012 - 02:35pm PT
Perhaps we should consider arming the School custodial staff, lunch room employees, and crossing guards as well. That will solve the problem.
atchafalaya

Boulder climber
Dec 21, 2012 - 02:40pm PT
"That is not what is being proposed by the gun-hating Left. They are proposing that these
bans affect everyone . They won't stop until all weapons owned by ordinary citizens are prohibited.
They are exploiting this tragedy to bring that outcome about."

Thats just not true. Assault weapon bans should affect everyone, but noone is advocating taking your hunting rifles and shotguns, or handguns.
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Dec 21, 2012 - 02:47pm PT
trained to do whatever it takes to stop them.

Like force them to commit suicide? That seems to be the common result of these brutal massacres. Why would death dissuade someone who wants to die?
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Dec 21, 2012 - 03:12pm PT
“The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun.”

so says the NRA chief spokesman today

Well, bullsh#t.

Jared Loughner's rampage in Tucson was stopped when he had to pause to reload. Brave UNARMED citizens used that window of opportunity to pounce on him.
PAUL SOUZA

Trad climber
Central Valley, CA
Dec 21, 2012 - 03:15pm PT
While violence is a characteristic of mental illness, not all mentally ill people are violent.

Why don't we listen to the experts? Such as world renowned forensic psychiatrist, Dr. Park Dietz, who is in this video at 1:40.

Jebus H Bomz

climber
Reno, Nuh VAAAA duh
Dec 21, 2012 - 03:29pm PT
When only outlaws have guns, at least we'll have a damn good idea who the outlaws are. So we can shoot 'em!

It's so hard to tell who is bad now, what with all these "law abiding" citizens threatening revolt and giving back their bullets one well-aimed round at a time. Let's make it as simple as Republican rhetoric. Outlaw/Law abiding citizen. Abortion/Pregnancy. God/Allah. White/Illegal immigrant. Dualism is awesome!
rectorsquid

climber
Lake Tahoe
Dec 21, 2012 - 03:33pm PT
Public schools are already prisons. The kids are required by law to be there and have very limited ability to get out other than at organized yard time. Most schools are fenced in. Most have police of their own, at least part time.

Schools are already safer than most other places. This need to protect kids 100% in school then let them near a car or highway on the way home is absurd.

Dave
rectorsquid

climber
Lake Tahoe
Dec 21, 2012 - 03:37pm PT
As to the issue of an assault rifle competing against a pistol, the gun was not fully automatic. Is that type of semi-automatic rifle that mush easier to aim at the length of a classroom than a pistol?

Let's see, Glock handgun with 17 rounds in the clip against Bushmaster with ? rounds? The first three or four are the only rounds that will count so clip size is not really an issue.

Plus, if a teacher starts to shoot and misses, the attacker will still run for cover or be distracted from doing lots of evil.

I NOT NOT ADVOCATE teachers having guns in school, since there are no real gun dangers there anyhow, but arguments against it because of gun variations and coming from non-gun owners, are a little annoying.

Dave
FRUMY

Trad climber
SHERMAN OAKS,CA
Dec 21, 2012 - 03:42pm PT
Ya lets grow the government even more & put guards at every school. & how much more will that add to the U. S. debt.
Alan Rubin

climber
Amherst,MA.
Dec 21, 2012 - 03:49pm PT
As jghedge says above thetre were armed adults at the scene of the Giffords shooting--at least one was interviewed by the press. He chose not to shoot because in the--predictible--chaos it wasn't clear whom to shoot at,was afraid that he might hit innocent civilians, and was also afraid that the arriving cops would see him with a gun and shoot him. This is the reality of such situations--panic, chaos and uncertainty--that the NRA-types refuse to acknowledge in their assumption that more guns make things safer.
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Reno, Nuh VAAAA duh
Dec 21, 2012 - 03:50pm PT
Don't worry, Alan, now you will get the stats on guns stopping killings and criminals thwarted. To which somebody will respond with more unchecked sprees figures, accidental deaths, suicides.... And so on.... Repeat until nauseated.
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Reno, Nuh VAAAA duh
Dec 21, 2012 - 03:58pm PT
You'd think a mental health database is the last things Republicans would want.

edit: Heh. Couldn't help it. Hope I didn't throw somebody off their med adherence.
Alan Rubin

climber
Amherst,MA.
Dec 21, 2012 - 04:07pm PT
Also armed guard at Columbine, and armed cop arrived soon after. Both fired---both missed--killings continued.
cuvvy

Sport climber
arkansas
Dec 21, 2012 - 04:18pm PT
I think theyve got a massive hoard of stupid pills, so, no, they do not have a problem with stupid pills.
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Reno, Nuh VAAAA duh
Dec 21, 2012 - 04:19pm PT
Remember even the President was running black market guns in Mexico ( resulting in the death of innocent people).


America trades - gulp - arms?

Next thing you'll blow my mind and tell me we routinely hijack the democratic process in other countries when it's inconvenient to our interests.
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Dec 21, 2012 - 04:23pm PT
Is Limbaugh an NRA member? Cause he's got a pill problem.
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Reno, Nuh VAAAA duh
Dec 21, 2012 - 04:25pm PT
Is Limbaugh an NRA member? Cause he's got a pill problem.


I'm pretty sure that's one of the most crucial qualifications for NRA membership.
PSP also PP

Trad climber
Berkeley
Dec 21, 2012 - 04:25pm PT
http://www.meetthenra.org/nra-member/Harlon%20Carter

Harlon Carter changed the NRA form a hunting oriented association to a gun rights group . Convicted of murder in 1931 and sounds like an all-around A##hole based on his doings along the mexican border. One of the roots to this nonsense.
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Dec 21, 2012 - 04:27pm PT
I can't believe what a disgusting selfish human being that LaPierre as#@&%e is.

Yeah let's insult the memory of those 20 children that died ONE WEEK ago by proposing more guns will solve the problem (and pad the pockets of his buddies) and blame everyone else but themselves.

Yeah armed guards are THE solution. Like a guy with an assault rifle wouldn't just take the guard out first.

I'm not even opposed to armed guards, especially at bad schools with a history of gun problems, but to ignore easy access to assault rifles and large capacity clips contributed to this tragedy is spineless and evil.

I was on the fence about assault rifles (I see the appeal of shooting them) but now I say f*#k it ban them with no grandfather clause this time.
Ban high capacity clips.
Ban armor piercing bullets.
Ban sniper rifles.
Pass laws requiring guns be locked up or serious consequences.
Pass laws limiting violent video games and movies to 18 plus with serious consequences for allowing a child to watch them.
Do a much better job with mental health treatment and teaching doctors and parents what to watch out for.
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Dec 21, 2012 - 04:28pm PT
I'm pretty sure that's one of the most crucial qualifications for NRA membership

I don't have health insurance though. Should I rob a Walgreens for the pills?
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Reno, Nuh VAAAA duh
Dec 21, 2012 - 04:35pm PT
Yes , black market arms- run by the President and his attorney general.
These illegal weapons have been responsible for countless deaths in Mexico and the US.

I would shudder if there were CIA involvement. I wouldn't want them to soil their hands in this.

Seriously?

The only way you're going to faze me is if you told me the Prez is personally loading trucks. And I'd only be taken aback by the fact he found time in his schedule.

I'm sure no other American orchestrated arms smuggling has resulted in American deaths. I'm sure we haven't smuggled drugs, money, participated in human trafficking. Administration after administration.
Cragman

Trad climber
June Lake, California....via the Damascus Road
Dec 21, 2012 - 04:35pm PT
photo not found
Missing photo ID#279678
mojede

Trad climber
Butte, America
Dec 21, 2012 - 04:41pm PT
From the Harlon Carter bio off the NRA site:

Carter responded that arming dangerous individuals was “a price we pay for freedom.”



Just who the fack is supposed to pay this "price"????



Oh yeah, the majority and not the advocates...
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Reno, Nuh VAAAA duh
Dec 21, 2012 - 04:41pm PT
Yeah, Cragman, I've seen your thoughts. The summary is if you don't carry a weapon you deserve to have your family raped by a black bear. Good on you for liking Samuel L. Jackson though. Reformed crack head, great actor to be applauded.

Let some of people who don't know any better exactly what you and your ilk propose to do.
You want to ban all guns and abrogate the second amendment.
Am I correct?


Who are you talking to?

I'm honestly confused on the best tactic, but I have not advocated denial of the second amendment as it is currently understood. Other than in jest for mocking puerile arguments from the likes of you, anyway.

Me and my ilk, indeed. Dualism at it's best. No solution, no compromise, same old dogmatic, ultimately nihilistic BS from you and your ilk.
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Dec 21, 2012 - 04:47pm PT
That Samuel Jackson quote is a fake.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Dec 21, 2012 - 04:50pm PT
Hey Donald, while we are cracking don on the rights of organizations that fill our citizens heads with nonsense, do not forget about the churches, the biggest purveyors of BS.
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Reno, Nuh VAAAA duh
Dec 21, 2012 - 05:04pm PT
Better stick to just straight insults.

I wouldn't want to completely co opt your schtick, Donald. Plus, I usually save straight insults for true a-hole sh#t heels like Bluering.

Yes, pretty dualistic and nihilistic answers on your part. No guns = anarchy in your mind. Pretty black and white.

Nah, it's time to face up to the fact you're part of the non solution, man. A leech on society whose vice kills others.

edit: Whoops! I just straight insulted that dog!
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Reno, Nuh VAAAA duh
Dec 21, 2012 - 05:08pm PT
We ALWAYS Win, and You ALWAYS lose.

Lebowski! Stay out of Malibu, deadbeat!
atchafalaya

Boulder climber
Dec 21, 2012 - 05:10pm PT
"monkey with the Constitution"

Hahahaha, nice Donald. "monkey" with the constitution sounds really bad. Do you mean "amend"? The framers created a process where the constitution could be amended if needed. Its been amended (i.e., monkeyed with) over 27 times. Have you heard about those later amendments? Were those only the acts of deranged liberals? hahahahah... please continue.
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Reno, Nuh VAAAA duh
Dec 21, 2012 - 05:12pm PT
Nevada's constitution has been monkeyed with over a 140 times. I didn't know we had such a primate problem here.
Bruce Morris

Social climber
Belmont, California
Dec 21, 2012 - 05:14pm PT
"They have a history of being powerless vassals and serfs who traded their freedom for security by an overlord."

The words of a rugged individualist without any historical perspective whatsoever.

What about Magna Carta and English common law? That's the common tradition of individual liberty in all the English-speaking democracies including the UK and the USA. Our Constitution and Bill of Rights are further extensions and modifications of the fundamental tenets of English common law.

We signed the North Atlantic Treaty and fought Hitler and the National Socialists together to defend those rights.
Cragman

Trad climber
June Lake, California....via the Damascus Road
Dec 21, 2012 - 05:18pm PT
We have so many thousands of service men and women coming out of service and need work.

Putting these well-trained patriots to work to protect our kids is a win-win.
atchafalaya

Boulder climber
Dec 21, 2012 - 05:23pm PT
"We have so many thousands of service men and women coming out of service and need work.

Putting these well-trained patriots to work to protect our kids is a win-win."

You are an idiot if you think 20something year old veterans, some with PTSD, should be intentionally armed near our kids to protect them. Your an idiot anyways, but that statement was asinine. GFYS.
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Dec 21, 2012 - 05:28pm PT
GFYS

Easy there, Scooter.

You may disagree with Dean, I do, but lay off the haterade and be respectful.

Type what you'd say in person. Then duck, because that sort of sh#t will get your jaw broken in real life.

Just a heads up.
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Dec 21, 2012 - 05:30pm PT
make the economy worse on purpose.

This actually happened. McConnell (sp) said as much.
Cragman

Trad climber
June Lake, California....via the Damascus Road
Dec 21, 2012 - 05:31pm PT
Thanks Brandon, but his vomit means nothing to me.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Dec 21, 2012 - 05:31pm PT
Yes jghedge, it would appear he really is that stupid.
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Trad climber
SLO, Ca
Dec 21, 2012 - 05:33pm PT
The idea of armed guards at elementary schools is so idiotic I can't even believe it was proposed.

Concealed weapons in bars and on college campuses, large quantity magazines, lock down procedures for kindergartners, legislation to allow guns on the private property of others against their will, it's all just totally nuts.


Cragman

Trad climber
June Lake, California....via the Damascus Road
Dec 21, 2012 - 05:34pm PT
I spend a lot of time in Ecuador. Every bank, hospital, mall, and school, etc., is guarded my armed personnel.

It works.
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Trad climber
SLO, Ca
Dec 21, 2012 - 05:36pm PT
Exactly. I've been to lots of third world countries that have armed guards everywhere. I'd like to think I'm not living in one.
Cragman

Trad climber
June Lake, California....via the Damascus Road
Dec 21, 2012 - 05:39pm PT
We guard our banks...why not our most precious resource?
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Reno, Nuh VAAAA duh
Dec 21, 2012 - 05:43pm PT
Exactly. I've been to lots of third world countries that have armed guards everywhere. I'd like to think I'm not living in one.


Righto. Long have I suspected the agenda of conservatives is to bleed this country into the third world. Never have I seen such obvious proof of it though!

Hey, what's wrong with armed guards? What's wrong with getting your food from the back of a U.N. truck? Hey, it works in Africa!

F*#k.
Cragman

Trad climber
June Lake, California....via the Damascus Road
Dec 21, 2012 - 05:46pm PT
I think what we must face is the fact that the world in which we live is growing more and more evil by the day.

After 9-1, we have had to grow accustomed to the TSA in our airports. Perhaps this evil of shooters killing our kids is yet one more thing we have to combat, just like those terrorists.

The world is failing, and we have to find a way to fight that.
atchafalaya

Boulder climber
Dec 21, 2012 - 05:48pm PT
Would anyone here, who have children, be ok with Ron Anderson, or cragman being armed at your kids school?

divad

Trad climber
wmass
Dec 21, 2012 - 05:49pm PT
We have to start the dialog on limiting 1st Amendment rights. The media has for too long been allowed to fill the minds of potential mass killers with unrestrained images of violence and mayhem. They are also allowed to make instant celebrities of of these killers for naked profit.

soo, take away the pens and let 'em have their swords...

that'll work...
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Dec 21, 2012 - 05:56pm PT
Everyone here is looking at a picture, some say it's clearly white and others say its as black as deep space.

Unfortunately it's grey, all grey through and through and a hundred variations, too.

Armed guards are a good idea some places, some times. Some guns are awesome and we should have some of them in society. Some regulation is needed, and some people will gun down schools.

We keep trying to paint with a broader brush, when we are uniquely f*#ked.


As long as guns exist there will be people that will do this. Now we're back to playing that old game of trading freedoms for safety. I f*#king hate it. I don't own guns but lots of friends do... They wouldn't want me to lose climbing, and guns are their passion.


Around and around we go, circling our children's graves with our picket signs and dogma.
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Dec 21, 2012 - 05:56pm PT
We guard our banks...why not our most precious resource?

I've yet to see an armed guard in a bank in the US.

Maybe you're living in the wrong place?
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Dec 21, 2012 - 06:07pm PT
LOL, don't go to a public school in California.

F*cking libtard.
Ricky D

Trad climber
Sierra Westside
Dec 21, 2012 - 06:09pm PT
How about we designate one day a year as "National Shoot Somebody Day"?

Just have a 24 hour free-for-all where all of the gun nuts, crazies, mother rapers, daddy haters and doomsday preppers can blast away with unfettered glee.

A win-win on a lot of levels - population reduction, economic upsurge for Walmarts, release of pent up tensions, fodder for any number of reality shows on TLC.

I would set the tag limit at one person apiece just so we show we are still civilized.


Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Dec 21, 2012 - 06:11pm PT
I get the feeling that Dean wants to see anyone he perceives as a threat gone. Poof. Magic god stuff. Gone.

Edit; I could be wrong. I've never met the guy, and I do respect him. We just have vastly different opinions on this issue.
sandstone conglomerate

climber
sharon conglomerate central
Dec 21, 2012 - 06:18pm PT
donald, how did you get your border collie to wear that hat? Mine won't stand for that sh#t...
bergbryce

Mountain climber
California
Dec 21, 2012 - 06:19pm PT
In case it hasn't been mentioned, Columbine had a security officer.
Got anymore half-assed, dodging the issue completely suggestions?

I also can't recall seeing an armed guard since I lived in Chicago and banked at the main Harris Bank branch in the south Loop which did indeed have an armed guard on the premisses. That was 12 years and probably a hundred banks ago.
10b4me

Boulder climber
Somewhere on 395
Dec 21, 2012 - 06:22pm PT




Extremely weak points , but sounding strong because of the insults.
.

Boneheads.

Thompson, that is hypocritical
10b4me

Boulder climber
Somewhere on 395
Dec 21, 2012 - 06:25pm PT
We guard our banks


Haven't seen any guards at my bank.(Chase)
locker

Social climber
state of Kumbaya...
Dec 21, 2012 - 06:40pm PT


""Haven't seen any guards at my bank.(Chase)"

Or mine (Citi)"
...

Or mine...

US BAKED...
froodish

Social climber
Portland, Oregon
Dec 21, 2012 - 06:43pm PT
Not at all. From the viewpoint of who their masters are (gun manufacturers) anything that sells more guns is brilliant.
rurprider

Trad climber
Mt. Rubidoux
Dec 21, 2012 - 06:44pm PT
1st Amemdment rights? Don't you mean the 2nd Amendment? Use your power as a citizen and vote for congressman and senators that support restrictions on assault rifles and semiautomatic handguns. It's not the NRA that requlates gun sales and legislation regarding guns...it's congress. Vote for legislators that AREN'T pro gun. CONGRESS HAS A STUPID PILL PROBLEM!!!!! THEY'RE ADDICTED.
crankster

Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
Dec 21, 2012 - 06:49pm PT
Gunnuts revealing themselves to be: Gun Nuts.
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Dec 21, 2012 - 06:51pm PT
Hell, I don't even get asked for ID at my banks.

Maybe some of you should move out of Tweakerville, CA, and discover the beautiful mountains of........wait, sh#t, keep them away.........Vermont!

Good climbing, the ocean is near, there ARE bugs, but they aren't as bad as they're made out to be.

Ah, Vermont.

HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Dec 21, 2012 - 07:03pm PT
The N.R.A. Crawls From Its Hidey Hole

Wayne LaPierre, the spokesman for the National Rifle Association, would have been better advised to remain wherever he had been hiding after the Newtown massacre, rather than appear at the news conference on Friday. No one seriously believed the N.R.A. when it said it would contribute something “meaningful” to the discussion about gun violence. The organization’s very existence is predicated on the nation being torn in half over guns. Still, we were stunned by Mr. LaPierre’s mendacious, delusional, almost deranged rant.


Mr. LaPierre looked wild-eyed at times as he said the killing was the fault of the media, songwriters and singers and the people who listen to them, movie and TV scriptwriters and the people who watch their work, advocates of gun control, video game makers and video game players.

The N.R.A., which devotes itself to destroying any hope of compromise on guns, however, is blameless. So are the unscrupulous and unlicensed dealers who sell guns to criminals, and the gun makers who bankroll Mr. LaPierre so he can help them keep peddling their ever-more-lethal, ever-more-efficient products, and politicians who kill laws that would exert even modest controls over guns.

He offered nothing more than the most ridiculous anti-gun-control rhetoric we’ve heard since the Newtown murders. His solution to the proliferation of guns, including semiautomatic rifles that have little purpose beyond killing people as quickly as possible, is to put more guns in more places. Mr. LaPierre would put a police officer in every school and compel teachers and principals to become armed guards, because his group won’t do anything about the ease with which anyone can get a gun.

He wants volunteer and professional firefighters, who already risk their lives every day, to be charged with thwarting an assault by a deranged murderer. The same applies to paramedics, security guards, veterans, retired police officers. “The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun,” Mr. LaPierre said. (It is interesting that such a literal reader of the Second Amendment would have missed the fact that Congress has no power over local police forces and schools. Talk about Big Brother government.)

We cannot imagine trying to turn the principals and teachers who care for our children every day into an armed mob. And let’s be clear, civilians bristling with guns to prevent the “next Newtown” are an armed mob even with training offered up by Mr. LaPierre. Any town officials or school principal who takes up the N.R.A. on that offer should be fired.

Mr. LaPierre said the Newtown killing spree “might” have been averted if the killer had been confronted by an armed security guard. It’s far more likely that there would have been a dead armed security guard — just as there would have been even more carnage if civilians had started firing weapons in the Aurora movie theater.

In the 62 mass-murder cases over 30 years examined recently by the magazine Mother Jones, not one was stopped by an armed civilian. There are two cases in which armed civilians confronted a shooter. Both were immediately shot. One died.

We have known for many, many years that a sheriff’s deputy was at Columbine High School in 1999 and traded shots with Eric Harris while 11 of the 13 people he and Dylan Klebold killed were still alive. He missed four times.

People like Mr. LaPierre want us to believe that civilians can be trained to use lethal force with cold precision in moments of fear and crisis. That requires a willful ignorance about the facts. Police officers know that firing a weapon is a huge risk; that’s why they avoid doing it. In August, New York City police officers opened fire on a gunman outside the Empire State Building. They killed him and wounded nine bystanders.

Mr. LaPierre said the news media give mass killers the attention they seek. He said the news media call the semiautomatic weapon used in Newtown a machine gun, claim that it’s a military weapon and that it fires the most powerful ammunition available. That’s not true. What is true is that there is a growing call in America for stricter gun control.


NYT editorial was harsh but nailed it. I find it extra hilarious that the "a gun doesn't make someone homicidal" lobby have decided that killing people in computer games DOES make people homicidal. If that was true then I'd have killed a few school's worth of kids by now.
rectorsquid

climber
Lake Tahoe
Dec 21, 2012 - 07:08pm PT
To be honest, I am all for the right to bear arms and all that stuff that the NRA supposedly supports. But the actions of that group and the few vocal gun nuts is quite disturbing. I suppose that they reject gun registration databases, and all that, because when the sh#t hits the fan and they become the rebels trying to stop some sort of out of oppresive government, they want it to be hard for that government to find and exterminate them.

That type of thinking is just not rational. Zombies and political unrest both happen very slowly and there will be plenty of time to run and hide from either.

The NRA are a lot like the politicians at the moment. They are unwilling to compromise for their own good. They are so wrapped up in their own principals that they can't see how it is working against them. And they need to hire better public speakers or get some decent speech writers.

Dave


AndyO

Social climber
Brooklyn, NY
Dec 21, 2012 - 07:36pm PT
Rootin Tootin Shootin!!
Rootin Tootin Shootin!!
Credit: AndyO
Ricky

climber
Sometimes LA
Dec 21, 2012 - 07:38pm PT
What about personal responablity, the kid could have just as easily built a bomb.

I trust this first page comment has already been pilloried as the ignorant gibberish that it is.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Dec 21, 2012 - 07:40pm PT
Concerning the NRA.....no pill needed.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Dec 21, 2012 - 07:58pm PT
I would have loved to have been a fly on the wall during the board meeting when the NRA was discussing the language of today's press conference. "God damn liberal media!"

Yeah, lets rethink freedom of the press in this day and age of instant news reporting. We can limit the media so that we do not have to regulate gun ownership. Forget about the fact that without the main stream media we would be relying on citizen bloggers, that would be great!


lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Dec 21, 2012 - 08:06pm PT
The First Amendment addresses the rights of freedom of religion (prohibiting Congress from establishing a religion and protecting the right to free exercise of religion), freedom of speech, freedom of the press, freedom of assembly, and freedom of petition.

The Second Amendment to the United States Constitution is the part of the United States Bill of Rights that protects the right of the people to keep and bear arms.

Funny first the rights or freedom of speech then after they agreed on that they gave us the rights to own, make and buy guns. The first two things.

There is talk of Security guards protecting all schools by the Stupid NRA: Police $$$$$$$$$$$,stupid idea since they should be looking for crime not guarding or waiting for something to happen. National Guard $$$$$$$$$$, another stupid idea. How about giving teachers to arm themselves: let’s see one goes ballistic because one of her students can’t shut up or does not hand in his/her homework in time or maybe she shoots and her round misses and goes through the plaster board and kills a kid in the class next to hers.

Yes! The answer will be to hire private guards. The contractor with the lowest bid will win and hire Ex-Walmart employees, retired people in their 70’s also will hire “Back to Work off Welfare People” ; $9 an hour; they will eventually get bored because nothing happens and they caught for smoking pot. Big scandal, billions of wasted dollars, so try another idea.

Cameras never work; fuzzy and lack of time to respond, plus too way expensive to buy A11M technology. I see there is someone selling Bullet-proof backpacks; first no such thing it is Bullet Resistant/Resistive terminology plus it stops handguns not high power rounds shot from a high power semi-automatic rifle like the one used in the school so waste of funds and law suits concur from that manufacture by cutting cost and disregarding regulated and code because he was awarded the lowest bid which is the requirement by the FEDS. He files for Bankruptcy and runs out of town. Plus the kid was shot in the head so no protection.

So all stupid ideas and give it to the stupid NRA to come up with stupid solutions.

OK

Just went to my local probation department this morning not for me but to hand in some papers dealing with a juvenile stealing some of my personal stuff 15 months ago; we went to trail, he gets a year’s probation and 250.00 fine which is my deductible. Had one week to replaced everything because I went overseas, came back insurance company pays me 6/7 months later when I get back.

So I walk in, it is fortified, had to laugh since I do risk assessments. The woman behind the window asks “Can I help you”, I say need to drop these off to one of your staff regarding going back to court to get the deductible: reason for his fine. We will go to court late Jan. of 2013.

Before she comes out I am assessing the room and see four mistakes, windows, access, lighting…… 2 minutes or less she shows up opens the door and I notice her left shoe toe is against her side of the door and held the door with her right hand to stop entry which was good, she relaxed, gave her the papers she requested and then I knock on the glass window just above programmable lock. I hit and notice it is not glass but plastic [mistake assessment #5] and was so thin could of broken it easily. But I asked her what’s wrong with this, she says ???? “Knocking on the window instead of the door” I said “no” this door is the same setup how the kid got in the classrooms by shooting and opening it in from the inside. She is startled and says “Wow, you are correct”, thanked me and told she will make a note of it and will tell the appropriate people. Then told her where it should be placed.

So what will happen and is already in action for protection for children so they are safe: smaller windows to the outside of the new schools. Older schools will be updated with precast panels with a spray on fragmented resistive membrane on the back to shield at the appropriate height. The children will be placed further away from the windows not near them, Latches to doors will be wired for wireless automatic shutdown by a single or multiple button either by a person or by the sound of a rifle round going off.

Canada has a Sin-Tax: cigarettes and booze. Have the NRA keep their stupid ideas and create a Violence Tax not an anti-violence because Americans well some actually a lot of them like Violence; as for me, I am not one of them on all rifles that are military styled.

Booze and guns have you ever notice the prices have really never changed in the last 50 years; so double the amount 50% on assault rifles and ammo. Half or that 50% tax is used for upgrading schools. Make sure they do not look like forts but blend in and use green products.

And that is just for schools what about violence against women and rape, pedophiles against children.

But then again really nothing just like the battery commercial; it keeps going and keeps going.

Credit: lostinshanghai

Credit: lostinshanghai

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 21, 2012 - 08:11pm PT
Just WRONG about prices not changing, Lost.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 21, 2012 - 09:08pm PT
I just hope that if there is civil unrest and predators at my friend donini's door that he can keep them at bay tossing used Depends and brandishing ice tools.
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Dec 21, 2012 - 09:27pm PT
Right….

The NRA says there should be a cop in every school with a gun….

LaPieair didn't mention who was going to pay all those cops…
And don't ask the law and order republigoons for any taxes to pay for it…


hey, may Gov cromneycan ask his supporters to foot the bill…?


Doubt it all around.


NRA - New Stooge Association - Where great ideas haven't got a chance in hell!!!
AE

climber
Boulder, CO
Dec 21, 2012 - 09:55pm PT
This is the other thread
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=2020096&tn=40#msg2021455

Dec 21, 2012 - 06:19pm PT
my addition re:
the NRA Monument to Stupidity

(instead of my reposting it here, although perhaps that would be even more effective)

I also KNEW Mr. O was gonna have to go off re his gun-totin' wackness.
The saddest aspect to all this is our country once had an optimism that brought people together in crises; now, the prepper mindset has fostered a culture of cowardly, fearful, paranoid loners convinced they can somehow survive without anyone else, as long as they can kill everyone who approaches. What if, pray tell, those are actually people gracious enough to be coming to your assistance?
Wait a little while, and we'll get to see the first unarmed gunman, who walks into a school, grabs the nearest firearm off a teacher/guard then....
Or, the wierdo who gets a job "guarding" a school, then takes out a few dozen...
A story a few days ago summed it up succinctly: as long as such weapons are readily available, no amount of protection will be adequate, as made clear in the fact that Ronald Reagan and Jim Brady were surrounded by the best-trained, armed security in the world - Secret Service agents - yet were both nearly killed. The concept of armed defenders is total B.S.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Dec 21, 2012 - 09:59pm PT


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arms_race

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner's_dilemma
"The Cold War
The Cold War and similar arms races can be modelled as a Prisoner's Dilemma situation.[22] During the Cold War the opposing alliances of NATO and the Warsaw Pact both had the choice to arm or disarm. From each side's point of view: Disarming whilst your opponent continues to arm would have led to military inferiority and possible annihilation. If both sides chose to arm, neither could afford to attack each other, but at the high cost of maintaining and developing a nuclear arsenal. If both sides chose to disarm, war would be avoided and there would be no costs. If your opponent disarmed while you continue to arm, then you achieve superiority.

Although the 'best' overall outcome is for both sides to disarm, the rational course for both sides is to arm. This is indeed what happened, and both sides poured enormous resources in to military research and armament for the next thirty years until the dissolution of the Soviet Union broke the deadlock."
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 21, 2012 - 10:06pm PT
Got to agree, stupid idea on at least 3 levels.

Public schools are just one of the things my people came up with. In Israel a teacher actually shot and killed a terrorist, but in Israel every citizen does 2 years (women included) in the world's finest military.

Can't arm teachers here, but can't pay for armed guards who can't be everywhere at once anyway.

Guns are not going away soon (no matter how many times you click your heels and wish on a star) so maybe it is time for a cultural change. Maybe we need to drop the rudeness. Maybe we need to destigmatize mental health issues.
I've said it before; make this a world people want to be part of.
The Warbler

climber
the edge of America
Dec 21, 2012 - 10:09pm PT
Haven't read this thread past Donut's post -


Just one well-trained individual so that any potential mass killers will know that someone there at any given school is armed and trained to do whatever it takes to stop them.


More disassociation from reality from the right.

Your average classroom has 20 to 30 kids in it. If a psycho with an automatic weapon, who plans to off himself after he does his thing, enters that classroom and starts firing, how many minutes does it take him to do insane damage?

Next question - how many armed guards per school would it take to reliably stop him in this theoretical scenario before that damage is done?

How many "potential mass killers" would be deterred by the thought of being confronted by a gun toting security guard?

The NRA has one underlying goal - protect gun manufacturers' profits.
Rankin

Social climber
Greensboro, North Carolina
Dec 21, 2012 - 10:11pm PT
Great thread title. The answer is yes. The NRA is in for a serious haircut over the next few years.
McHale's Navy

Trad climber
Panorama City, California & living in Seattle
Dec 21, 2012 - 10:16pm PT
Personally, I think more people should buy more cameras. With a camera you can shoot all the effing time AND retrieve yer shots!

The government could have a program where as if somebody goes in to buy a gun, the salesman has to say, " Yes, that 45 is really nice but we have an 18 MP crop sensor here by Canon that you can take home fer less - here, take a couple shots - tell me what you think ".
AE

climber
Boulder, CO
Dec 21, 2012 - 10:20pm PT
Ed,
Why has no one noted how quickly we then annihilated the Soviets?
Oh, guess it was because we didn't.
Hmm. Makes one pause.
Unfortunately, the world has a few total nutjobs, along with a few total nut countries. I do not feel strongly about the lack of Russian firepower, the continuing strength of China, but I DO worry about adding Iran and Pakistan and North Korea to the list.
Extending the analogy, I feel a lot more comfortable knowing that at least reasonably trained law enforcement officers are the ones likely to be responding to the rare assault event, versus Rambo Ron types who are more likely to hit one another, or other innocents, in a melee, or even a simple false alarm.
The myth of the old West gunslinger is just that - very few law-abiding citizens packed sidearms, yet miraculously most of them survived.
Back on topic, clearly the NRA's primary agenda, now that Obama's reelected, is to sell as many sponsor's weapons and bullets as possible, and what better method than to convince paranoid populations that arming schools will somehow make them safer?
The Warbler

climber
the edge of America
Dec 21, 2012 - 10:56pm PT
The 2nd amendment says nothing about citizens being able to have any weapon they want

Not to mention when it was written there were effectively no automatic weapons.
zBrown

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Dec 21, 2012 - 11:11pm PT
NRA is a big part of the problem

Scalia is a bigger part.

The Warbler

climber
the edge of America
Dec 21, 2012 - 11:13pm PT
The NRA thinks guns are the solution.

Guns are the problem.


Typical republicon bullshit
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Dec 21, 2012 - 11:18pm PT
while the idea of having armed guards at school is abhorrent. our current laws and near term future laws dealing with weapons WOULD NOT prevent a Sandy hook from happening.

the only thing that could have prevented sandy hook is an armed guard....

as abhorrent as that may be.
zBrown

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Dec 21, 2012 - 11:25pm PT
the only thing that could have prevented sandy hook is an armed guard....

Rain on your parade

What if Adam (whatshisname) did not have any guns and/or bullets


He won't make it to 80 - his kind consumes themselves from within

Probably true about the consumption, but it wouldn't surprise me if he lasts longer. I try not to wish anyone ill, so I won't. However, should he pass on, I would not be grieving.


Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Dec 21, 2012 - 11:32pm PT
the only thing that could have prevented sandy hook is an armed guard....

as abhorrent as that may be.

note..........i said could as in possible.........not an absolute.....
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Dec 21, 2012 - 11:37pm PT
Jingy writes:

"The NRA says there should be a cop in every school with a gun….
LaPieair didn't mention who was going to pay all those cops…
And don't ask the law and order republigoons for any taxes to pay for it"



Paying for it would be easy - it would not cost one extra dollar, if our dollars were spent intelligently.

Right now in California, cops, sheriffs, CHP, prison guards, and parole officers are able to retire at fifty years old with 90% of their pay as their pension.

Instead of retiring at fifty, cops, CHP, etc. should be re-assaigned to school security - at 90% of their former pay - when they turn fifty, and be required to work until they're 67 before retiring.


A better idea would be to just get rid of mass assembly style schooling, and school the kids at home.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Dec 21, 2012 - 11:51pm PT
You can still have public education.

But instead of gathering all the kids together at school, you send the education to the kids in their homes.

Kids don't have to sit within sight of the chalkboard or within earshot of the teacher anymore if you take advantage of modern media delivery methods - such as DVD and internet - and educate the kids right where they live.

monolith

climber
albany,ca
Dec 21, 2012 - 11:52pm PT
Let society go to hell, we can do everything from our bunkers.
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Dec 21, 2012 - 11:55pm PT
I want hand grenades. Wal Mart is close and convenient.

We are tearing apart our nukes at a frightening pace. That is a damn waste of good money. I think that we should have a tactical nuke at every school.

Seriously, I am a hunting rifle owner, and I need two or three bullets per year max. Others enjoy just shooting stuff up, and that is all fine, but the NRA has gone fullblown batshit crazy.

I fell asleep on the couch with one of the Sportsmen channels on, and kept having this recurring dream as I slept. I woke up and realized that the NRA was playing this 30 minute piece about how if we sign an agreement with the U.N. it will take our guns away. They were comparing Obama to some of histories great tyrants, and were saying that if he won the election he would have us be invaded by U.N. troops.

U.N. TROOPS? DOES ANYONE REALIZE HOW INEPT U.N. TROOPS ARE? First, they are donated in small quantities from other nations. They don't have a bunch of bases and good weapons. U.N. troops are the guys in white APC's and blue helmets who don't get to carry ammo.

Me and my wife could get rid of U.N. troops.

What planet does LaPierre live on? The NRA used to be pretty normal. Now they might as well hire Ted Nugent as the next president.

And like I said, I own guns. Hunting guns, but quite dangerous and locked up.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Dec 21, 2012 - 11:56pm PT
To all you limp dicked gun nutter Rambo-ettes proposing arming schools** GO F*#K YOUR SELVES!**
Keep your whack nut crazy assed sh#t and your guns out of my country's schools. How many of you have kids in school? How many of youare teachers or are/were married to teachers. Your ignorance and arrogance disgusts me.
Columbine had an armed gaurd how did that work out?
photo not found
Missing photo ID#167636
McHale's Navy

Trad climber
Panorama City, California & living in Seattle
Dec 21, 2012 - 11:59pm PT
What's interesting is that NRA chieftan blames the media for sensationalizing these types of shootings but yet he himself buys into the whole hysteria thing saying we need to arm everyone. It's all just a little disgusting.
The Warbler

climber
the edge of America
Dec 22, 2012 - 12:15am PT
You can still have public education.

But instead of gathering all the kids together at school, you send the education to the kids in their homes.

You gotta be joking!


"gathering all the kids together at school" is half the education, if not more. How are kids going to learn to interact with their peers in a healthy way if they don't learn with a variety of other kids?

And what are the parents of these kids who learn at home, rather than in school, going to do for the day? Quit their jobs to watch their kids? Hire nannies?

I suppose all nannies should be armed too, cuz you just can't be too paranoid...

WTF is wrong with republicon minds? Why do they all think like this?


TREED

Trad climber
Gunks
Dec 22, 2012 - 12:25am PT
Would anyone here, who have children, be ok with Ron Anderson, or cragman being armed at your kids school?
Pretty much sums it up right there.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Dec 22, 2012 - 12:35am PT
WTF is wrong with republicon minds? Why do they all think like this?

Because fear mongering has a well proven track record of profitability.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Dec 22, 2012 - 12:42am PT
There are plenty of stupid pills to go around.

5000 threads later there is still precious little critical thinking... I wonder if it's always been this way.

A horrendous act happened, very similar in nature to recent horrendous acts.

Rather than stopping and actually thinking logically, the sheeple on both sides simply react. The ones who fear black sticks that go bang blame the big scary magazines. "Assault Rifle" sounds scary too. Go with that. Only the 'police' need scary things like that.

The other side calls for more guns, more Iraqi-esque green-zones to be set up at Sunny Days Elementary. Shoot the perps in the head. Those f'ing crazies! Make a daterbase of 'crazies' too... Yeah, that'll do it.

Emotion rules the day, and then the week, maybe the whole month. Thinking is either impossible for the masses or suspended.

Both sides hurl insults and use little dead kids as punctuation for their remarks. Libtards, gun-nuts, etc... Pictures of phalluses are introduced. Everyone has to be lumped into little tribes and teams their small brains can grasp and probe.

Fascinating.

Laws will be passed based on said emotions. Their content mattering not a bit. The government doing what it does... Growing like a cancer and seizing more power.

All the while, the next guy, maybe in Hackensack, NJ, who is about to snap is watching TV about drones accidentally killing 4, maybe 5 "brown" people in Afghanistan. Ooops. He pops a Lexipro. Maybe a valium tonight too.

The keys for his Mobil tanker fuel truck accidentally get knocked to the floor.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Dec 22, 2012 - 12:49am PT
Columbine had an armed gaurd how did that work out?

You make a good point, we need two armed guards. Added benefit, if one guard goes postal the other can shoot him, like the plan they had for officers in the missile silos.

Wait, maybe we need three armed guards, yeah, thats right, three armed guards.

The cost, minor detail, with 130,000 k-12 schools the cost would be 9.1 billion dollars, assuming a cost of 70k per guard (includes cost of benefits, we want happy guards right). Hmm, seems low, oh, my bad, that is for one guard per school, 27 billion dollars for three guards. Oh, and read my lips, no new taxes.
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Reno, Nuh VAAAA duh
Dec 22, 2012 - 12:49am PT
Go easy fear, we're just a bunch of slightly evolved chimpanzees you know.

edit:
You make a good point, we need two armed guards. Added benefit, if one guard goes postal the other can shoot him, like the plan they had for officers in the missile silos.

Wait, maybe we need three armed guards, yeah, thats right, three armed guards.

The cost, minor detail, with 130,000 k-12 schools the cost would be 9.1 billion dollars, assuming a cost of 70k per guard (includes cost of benefits, we want happy guards right). Hmm, seems low, oh, my bad, that is for one guard per school, 27 billion dollars for three guards. Oh, and read my lips, no new taxes.


Hahahaha... good stuff.

I was just thinking along similar lines. You get some PTSD Marine in there armed to the teeth and next thing you know you have a highly trained ex-military personnel wreaking carnage. Probably unfair, but is this how we want kids to grow up? Like they're in a third world country?

Oh yeah, I forgot that conservatives bowing to their corporate masters want just that. They'll bring jobs back from overseas once they've driven the American worker to the point where they are working for rupees.
nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Dec 22, 2012 - 01:03am PT
The beauty of the NRA's statement today is it will backfire on them. No pun intended.

you'd think they'd figure out how to appear smart enough to show they were willing and able to engage in a meaningful conversation. But todays statement clearly shows they are not. Guarding our schools with armed guards is beyond stupid. It shows a complete disconnect with those that are not NRA members (read, most of the country).

That disconnect comes as no surprise.

Further if you think that everyone should carry you also clearly show a disconnect with the country as a whole. Most want nothing to do with guns. It's a ridiculous "solution" to a major problem.

Stay disconnected I guess....

So the result I think will be is in another week or two there will be some other mass shooting (maybe the NRA will get lucky and it'll be a month or more) and the discussion or rhetoric will continue. I certainly don't wish that but let's be real. We all know there are people out there that watched this latest mass shooting and want to one-up that psycho. It's only going to get worse before it gets better.

I suspect those advocating for restrictions on guns will start to really organize and make a statement/difference. This latest event is galvanizing those of us that realize something has to change. One the other side the brain damaged NRA is advocating for turning our schools into reverse-prisons.

Y'all really think that'll turn the conversation into something constructive?
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Dec 22, 2012 - 10:56am PT
The fact that more people aren't already aware is pretty scary.
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Dec 22, 2012 - 10:59am PT
Fear is correct...
Ricky

climber
Sometimes LA
Dec 22, 2012 - 11:07am PT

Only slightly better than Ron Anderson armed outside your child's school:

http://www.mercedsunstar.com/2012/12/20/2717641/marine-veteran-outside-hughson.html


tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Dec 22, 2012 - 11:26am PT
Rather than stopping and actually thinking logically, the sheeple on both sides simply react.

Fear said what I have been wondering about for a long time. The difference between Canada and the US.




You have sides. Either one side or the other is in power, but everyone is on a side and after 5000 posts, you can't leave your sides and display critical thinking and solve issues. You are very representative of your country as a whole. If it came down to it (and it has in the past) you simply shoot the citizens 'on the other side' until one side declares victory.



In Canada, we have political hot button topics, but everyone is first and foremost a Canadian. All the finger pointing ends up pointed at the government - a largely detached and independent entity in society led by the fact that we had the Queen as head of state for so long. We just don't have the kind of hateful destructive arguments as a country as a whole over issues because when we differ on opinions we point our fingers at the government, not at each other.

In the US, the republicans are responsible for the NRA, guns are responsible for mass killings, and therefore Ron is responsible for these school kids.


A decade of watching this phenomenon in each country and I've finally figured it out!
The Warbler

climber
the edge of America
Dec 22, 2012 - 12:11pm PT
Lawrence O'Donnell doesn't like the NRA, and especially its CEO


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/22/lawrence-odonnell-nra-lapierre_n_2349965.html

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 22, 2012 - 12:28pm PT
For

private gun ownership
mandatory public service or military
harder driver's license tests
decriminalization of drug possession
more pay for cops and teachers
restoring public land (no grazing, wild horses or burros)


Against

welfare/nanny state
uneducated liptards having a vote
idiots that mishandle firearms
litterbugs and vandals
property tax (you want services? Pay for 'em)
censorship of nudity rather than violence
people that have kids but don't want to spend the time and effort to raise them properly!




So tooth, I am a libertarian. Do I really have to choose a side? Why can't I just sit in the bleachers and watch the game?
tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Dec 22, 2012 - 12:30pm PT
Toker, if I were in the bleachers at your game (in your country), I'd have a gun in my pocket.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 22, 2012 - 12:40pm PT
Glad to see me?
tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Dec 22, 2012 - 12:48pm PT
Ha ha!












No.
Salamanizer

Trad climber
The land of Fruits & Nuts!
Dec 22, 2012 - 01:08pm PT
Because that would make sense, the government isn't in the business of making sense. Now if it made more cents, that would be a different story.
Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
Dec 22, 2012 - 01:23pm PT
nstead of BILLIONS to places such as AFGHANISTAN, PAKISTAN and ANY OTHER STAN,, why dont we put that money into making our schools safer..


Great idea

Better yet... spend all those billions giving our people a better education with better mental health services, and then there wouldn't be any need for armed guards at schools.

Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Dec 22, 2012 - 01:23pm PT
Paying for it would be easy - it would not cost one extra dollar, if our dollars were spent intelligently.

Right now in California, cops, sheriffs, CHP, prison guards, and parole officers are able to retire at fifty years old with 90% of their pay as their pension.

Instead of retiring at fifty, cops, CHP, etc. should be re-assaigned to school security - at 90% of their former pay - when they turn fifty, and be required to work until they're 67 before retiring.


A better idea would be to just get rid of mass assembly style schooling, and school the kids at home.

 I'm torn… Sounds like a great way to pay for the cops that the NRA are calling for and a great way to save taxpayers money…. The other side of my brains says "Chaz said key words that don't seem to have any value to a certain ideological political group that is hell bent on getting rid of government…. a political party with a proven track record of shady spending of any taxes given to them."

So I don't trust it will happen the way that is stated by chaz, though I commend him for making the clearly thought out statement
zBrown

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Dec 22, 2012 - 01:28pm PT
Simple two-step program.

Buy them back.

Tax the ones who want to keep them and the manufacturers, in order to pay for all the additional protection they require in society.

donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Dec 22, 2012 - 01:45pm PT
No foreign power will ever subject Nevadastan. The terrain is treacherous, there is no food for an invading army, and the natives are armed and dangerous.

edit: I'm sure Nevadastan is a net giver of venereal diseases.

edit: My wrong, Nevadastan has an enlightened posistion on prostitution. It is regulated so it is safer for everyone. Now if they would just do that with guns.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Dec 22, 2012 - 02:01pm PT
photo not found
Missing photo ID#279870


Vegas has Lattes.
locker

Social climber
state of Kumbaya...
Dec 22, 2012 - 02:02pm PT

"We have enough free roaming horses to feed an army for years.."...

Hope you like eating, LEATHER...

LOL!!!...


EDITED:

I'm thinking at least a case of ADOLFS...



donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Dec 22, 2012 - 02:04pm PT
It's a damn good thing that Nevadastan didn't go blue during the Bush Occupation. They would have invaded despite the inherent risks.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 22, 2012 - 02:05pm PT
Nevadastan has no oil, but it does have precious metals with which to buy oil.

So it is only a matter of time before an imperial power takes it and builds large military bases that you cannot fly over.

Just a matter of time.
locker

Social climber
state of Kumbaya...
Dec 22, 2012 - 02:09pm PT


"and Locker,, Horse is not bad at all.."...


I agree!!!...

I had a Horse Burger and it was pretty good...

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 22, 2012 - 02:09pm PT
So horsemeat doesn't give you the galloping runs?
locker

Social climber
state of Kumbaya...
Dec 22, 2012 - 02:11pm PT

For some reason I did find myself always gravitating towards home...

locker

Social climber
state of Kumbaya...
Dec 22, 2012 - 02:15pm PT

^^^

LOL!!!...

Glad you caught my STUPID joke...

Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
Dec 22, 2012 - 02:16pm PT
Simple two-step program.

Buy them back.

Tax the ones who want to keep them and the manufacturers, in order to pay for all the additional protection they require in society.

Brilliant concept, but it won't work, either. Similar tactics have been attempted for tobacco, etc.

Look how many decades it took to get tobacco companies to pay? Now what do you think is the likelihood that the government will be able to able to get gun manufacturers to pay?

Increasing the tax on an item has been PROVEN to reduce consumption. A consumption tax has been proposed on everything for cigarettes to gasoline, alcohol, Big Macs, and everything else that is "bad" for you and results in significant cost to society.

We can't even get a nickle deposit added to soda cans. Lobbyists have blocked all other consumption taxes. Can you imagine trying to get a tax on guns?

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 22, 2012 - 02:19pm PT
Looking at that photo I don't see a single AR.

Nothing but cheap POS.
Wonder what it cost.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Dec 22, 2012 - 03:43pm PT
Oh god no not Arizonastan. Please don't start talking about Arizonastan.
Not until the drones are fully deployed.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Dec 22, 2012 - 03:56pm PT
Plus the place is crawling with bugeaters.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Dec 22, 2012 - 04:02pm PT
I don't think it is a stupid pill problem.
More like a G-Spot.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 23, 2012 - 10:17am PT
Wayne LaPierre on Meet The Depressed right now.

David Gregory doesn't want to listen.
Same old litany.
Psilocyborg

climber
Dec 23, 2012 - 04:29pm PT
If you think either outlawing weapons or having armed guards at schools will solve anything you are stupid. Stupid stupid stupid.

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 23, 2012 - 04:37pm PT
^ding ding
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Reno, Nuh VAAAA duh
Dec 23, 2012 - 04:42pm PT
Awesome argument. Oh, wait, there was no argument. Stupid stupid stupid.

I see an argument for very late term abortions ;).
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Dec 23, 2012 - 04:46pm PT
No guns allowed at NRA meetings

NRA meetings are a gun free zone? Didn't the gun nutters decide that gun free zones are very dangerous places?
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Dec 23, 2012 - 04:56pm PT
I'm guessing it stems from this event: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/josh-sugarmann/nra-annual-meeting-no-gun_b_576680.html

The National Rifle Association's annual meeting is this weekend and it's a galaxy of pro-gun stars!

Sarah Palin!

Glenn Beck!

Newt Gringrich!

Ollie North!

Oh, and no guns.

Yes, in this celebration of all things that go bang, each of these NRA-sanctioned speakers will be offering their address before a crowd of disarmed gun enthusiasts.

On its website, the NRA warns:

North Carolina State law prohibits the carrying of firearms in the Charlotte Convention Center, and the Time Warner Cable Arena. In addition, the Rules and Regulations of the Charlotte Convention Center prohibit the carrying of firearms in the Center. Pursuant to Time Warner Cable Arena policy, all individuals entering the Arena will be subject to a magnetometer security check.
To think that you'd have to suffer the indignity of going through a metal detector to hear someone proselytize about your right to carry your gun anywhere you want is easy irony.

So why is the NRA allowing their leadership, their membership, and their special guests--even NRA board member Ted Nugent, yes, even the Nuge!--to be forced to undergo the indignity of being stripped of their guns with little more than a whimper?

Well, because to do otherwise would frankly be nuts.

And despite complaints lodged on pro-gun message boards, the NRA knows this. And I'm willing to bet that the rationale offered by Ken at NRA headquarters isn't very satisfying to most concealed and open-carry fans:

Thank you for contacting us.

The Charlotte Convention Center does not allow the carrying of firearms, both open and concealed.

The large size of our event and the fact that many of the largest convention centers are in some of the most restrictive cities leaves us with relatively few convention centers large enough to accommodate the Annual Meetings. In an effort to provide all NRA members a better opportunity to attend the Annual Meetings, it is important that we move the event around the country as much as possible. While we will not consider bringing the Annual Meetings to a city with gun laws we feel are restrictive, we must however deal with convention centers that have restrictions simply because there are so few convention centers that both allow conceal carry and are large enough to host all of the events that comprise the Annual Meetings.

Thank you for your support!

Best Regards,

Ken
NRA Member Communications

Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Dec 23, 2012 - 05:39pm PT
Actually, I thought Pulp Fiction was a piece of crap, well overrated, like most of Tarantino's rubbish. I did like the Tim Roth restaurant scene, and I thought that Bruce Willis was fine in his cameo. But John Revolta and Jackson suck. Though Jackson is a good actor, but Vinnie Revolta, no I guess I just don't get it.

And Donald, you certainly have lived down to my expectations.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 23, 2012 - 05:42pm PT
If there was a big enough convention center in a more gun favoring legal climate they would doubtless use it.

The SHOT Show was only 165,000 people and used The Sands.
I've never seen so many guns in one place, maybe 50,000 on cable tethers so you could dry fire them.



Edit;
I took down the SHOT Show photos. I've shown them before.
People are turning so ugly that it is easy to lose sight of core issues and respond in kind.

One would be people showing respect.

Emilie Parker was laid to rest yesterday in her home town of Ogden (that of her parents, Jello too).
Hundreds of residents lined the street in the cold.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Dec 23, 2012 - 05:43pm PT
Hey Toker, still masturbating over the show. Oh come on, have a sense of humor, you asked for such a comment.
TwistedCrank

climber
Dingleberry Gulch, Ideeho
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 23, 2012 - 05:44pm PT
Yeah. Those look like some useful guns. Yup.
happiegrrrl

Trad climber
www.climbaddictdesigns.com
Dec 23, 2012 - 05:47pm PT
So now I know there is a BushMaster gun and also, from photo above, a ManLicker(sic). Have to wonder who is coming up with these brand names!
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Dec 23, 2012 - 06:46pm PT
Happi,

Most of the names are taken from the person who created the design.

Mannlicher, as you mentioned, was the manufacturer of the rifle used to kill John F Kennedy.
Chewybacca

Trad climber
Montana, Whitefish
Dec 23, 2012 - 06:54pm PT
Some of us are terrible shots. I NEED a rapid fire weapon and massive clip so I can kill Bambi.


The smaller the Pee Pee, the bigger the gun needed to compensate. Where's my howitzer? ;^}
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Dec 23, 2012 - 06:56pm PT
Charles Whitman is the UTA Sniper.

From Wiki:

"Whitman sawed off the barrel of the 12-gauge shotgun, and packed the weapon, together with a Remington 700 6mm bolt-action hunting rifle, into his footlocker. The footlocker also held a 6mm bolt-action hunting rifle, a .35 caliber pump rifle, a .30 caliber carbine, a 9mm Luger pistol, a Galesi-Brescia .25-caliber pistol and a Smith & Wesson M19 .357 Magnum revolver, and over 700 rounds of ammunition."



BTW, you can still find bullet holes in the areas around the tower (limestone I think)
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 23, 2012 - 07:25pm PT
Wasn't Whitman found to have a large brain tumor?

And Mannlicher designed the bolt. Carcano manufactured the 6.5mm that Oswald used.
happiegrrrl

Trad climber
www.climbaddictdesigns.com
Dec 23, 2012 - 08:57pm PT
who the hell cares about who manufactured what?

He was simply correcting what he felt or knew was misinformation posted earlier. Maybe that is more his area of expertise than Constitutional Law and the interpretation of that.

Maybe we should be pretty thankful right now that the area of expertise of our President IS Constitutional Law.....
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Dec 23, 2012 - 09:02pm PT
Did that gun show have those handy little hand sanitizer dispensers?
I mean to wipe the sticky stuff off.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Dec 23, 2012 - 09:21pm PT
Toker V. writes:

"And Mannlicher designed the bolt. Carcano manufactured the 6.5mm that Oswald used."


Don't confuse the middle school kids with facts, Ron. Beavis and Butthead are having too much fun giggling at "ManLicker" right now.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Dec 23, 2012 - 09:32pm PT
The tribe/team concept is very strong with the Sheeple.

If you like firearms then you're a gun-nut and obviously in league with the NRA.

Everyone just has to fit into a nice tiny box so we can hate and ridicule rather than fixing anyone.

Republican, Democrat, Gun-nut, Libtard, etc...

Why does anyone hate that Wayne/NRA character? Because he made a stupid suggestion? So what? The other side is making equally stupid suggestions. Who cares what the NRA suggests? Who cares what the US government suggests?

NEITHER HAVE OUR BEST INTERESTS IN MIND.

Read that again.

I was watching someone grill that Wayne guy in an interview. The host was practically dripping with venom. You could see him just seething with hate like he had Hitler and Ted Bundy in the hotseat. I don't know this Wayne from anyone else but he seemed like typical corporate deadwood like you'd find in any boardroom across the US.

When something tragic and horrible happens the Sheeple demand an instant answer so they can have the illusion of "safety" again. They are typically incapable of rational thought or simple problem solving. So main stream media whips everything up into a frenzy. Today's sacrificial goat? Wayne Lapierre? Really? Who the f*#k is he?

And yet, nobody focuses on the issue because that would be too difficult. We have to apparently have someone to hate and BLAME, preferably a group of people we can hate. The NRA, "gun nuts", the evil Government, the NWO, Bushmaster, pick one.

It must be just assumed young males are now going to go on random murderous sprees with no manifestos. That "just happens".

Just a clue. Obama, the US government, the NRA, Wayne L., have nothing to do with this problem, or the solution.

But it won't matter now, the wooly folds have taken their sides of the pasture intent on fighting each other.

Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Dec 23, 2012 - 09:48pm PT
How do you figure?

By being the largest gun safety promoter in the country?
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Dec 23, 2012 - 09:50pm PT
How many guns do you own, jghedge?
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Dec 23, 2012 - 09:52pm PT
So you're un-armed, then.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Dec 23, 2012 - 09:57pm PT
I like these guys with no first hand firearm ownership experience, who, using nothing but their immagination, claim to know why others do own firearms.

No experience, no knowledge, but your uninformed opinion is supposed to matter the same as someone who has both knowledge and experience.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Dec 23, 2012 - 10:00pm PT
Toadgas, look up Eddie Eagle.
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Dec 23, 2012 - 10:02pm PT
I'm not going to get into the gun debate in much detail. I own guns. I know people who have taken the AR platform and created some outstanding hunting guns. I will say that there are a lot of people out there who like playing Navy Seal, and spend a lot of money on guns with no real use, unless you believe that the frail United Nations is going to take over the country under Obama's invitation. The NRA actually believes this.

The NRA actually believes that Obama is going to flood the country with U.N. troops to take over America. How do I know this? Because I left the tube on in the other room one night, tuned to one of the Sportsmen hunting channels. All night long they played the same thirty minute infomercial that was pretty much just nuts. The NRA had gone Ted Nugent insane. It isn't about teaching gun safety like when I was a kid, it actually makes outrageous claims.

Hey, if we are gonna be invaded by the U.N. you are gonna see their asses kicked, because U.N. troops consist entirely of small contributions from various countries around the world. They rarely get in a real fight. They are only good for trying to save people from genocide in Africa and attempting to stop ethnic cleansing in the Balkans. They failed at both. In Africa, the bloodshed was unchecked. In the Balkans, the U.S. had to take over and bomb the sh#t out of Serbia's infrastructure. The U.N. is a pitiful organization for military force. Compared to being invaded by Canada or Mexico, I would far prefer the U.N. They would go down in two weeks because they are so weak.

Nevertheless, LaPierre was right there in these crazy infomercials, just like a new and gun laden Jim Jones, preaching a right wing gospel that really had nothing to do with gun safety.

I am one that believes that gun problems are extremely region specific. Alaskans who live in the interior would starve without guns, even the crazy ones. Even the AR platform has been around so long that they are now regularly tweaked as fer real hunting platforms. This, of course, has no purpose in inner city Chicago.

It is a social problem. I don't think it is a gun problem. Personally, I don't like guns which are only designed to kill people, like high mag capacity handguns or AK-47's in the hands of gangs. Others like a high capacity mag on their conceal carry licensed pistol, just in case they are met with a criminal. OK, I don't see them as much of a risk.

The fact remains that the NRA has indeed gone Ted Nugent batshit crazy over guns. They serve the gun industry, who likes to sell their products, and limitations on certain things like super high capacity magazines piss off the gun dealers and manufacturers.

Do you know who is one of the biggest arms traffickers in the world? Us.

The old NRA is gone. Now they are a mouthpiece for the extreme right, and posit extreme theories about arming yourself to the teeth to defeat an imaginary foe, no matter that coming up with a credible foe is impossible.

So La Pierre is an awful spokesman for them. Because he is crazy and needs to go on the list. He is obviously crazy. Crazies should not own weapons, he said it himself.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Dec 23, 2012 - 10:24pm PT
Similarly to the so-called fiscal cliff, Obama simply needs to push through a revived ban on assault weapons and similar things, together with the restrictions agreed to even by a vast majority of NRA members, then push it through a court challenge. Get the supreme court to finally rule on what the second amendment actually means - that is to say, that it almost certainly gives both state and federal governments reasonable powers to regulate the manufacture, sale, ownership and use of firearms by individuals. The leadership of the NRA and its business backers is scared stiff of that happening - well, actually they're generally frightened people, pushing an agenda of fear.

NRA Members Agree: More Gun Regulation Makes Sense

1. Requiring criminal background checks on gun owners and gun shop employees. 87 percent of non-NRA gun-owners and 74 percent of NRA gun owners support the former, and 80 percent and 79 percent, respectively, endorse the latter.

2. Prohibiting terrorist watch list members from acquiring guns. Support ranges from 80 percent among non-NRA gun-owners to 71 percent among NRA members.

3. Mandating that gun-owners tell the police when their gun is stolen. 71 percent non-NRA gun-owners support this measure, as do 64 percent of NRA members.

4. Concealed carry permits should only be restricted to individuals who have completed a safety training course and are 21 and older. 84 percent of non-NRA and 74 percent of NRA member gun-owners support the safety training restriction, and the numbers are 74 percent and 63 percent for the age restriction.

5. Concealed carry permits shouldn’t be given to perpetrators of violent misdemeanors or individuals arrested for domestic violence. The NRA/non-NRA gun-owner split on these issues is 81 percent and 75 percent in favor of the violent misdemeanors provision and 78 percent/68 percent in favor of the domestic violence restriction.

http://thinkprogress.org/election/2012/07/24/577091/nra-members-agree-regulating-guns-makes-sense/?mobile=nc
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Dec 23, 2012 - 10:35pm PT
MH, Just about all of your list is already state or federal law.


You are twice as likely to be pummeled to death by bare fists and feet than die via any long gun, including the scarey black ones.

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2010/crime-in-the-u.s.-2010/tables/10shrtbl08.xls
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Dec 23, 2012 - 10:39pm PT
The list quoted is simply the restrictions that NRA members themselves agree to, and no doubt they'd consent to others. They're not so fanatic as their widely-mocked 'leadership'. Some of them would surely even agree to a ban on assault rifles and related weapons, which should be the centrepiece of what Obama proposes, together with uniform federal regulation, and reasonable measures for phasing assault weapons out, e.g. a buy-back program.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Dec 23, 2012 - 10:44pm PT
That list is all common sense, but notice it is all about keeping guns out of the hands of the wrong people, not doing away with the wrong guns.

You'll be hard pressed to craft a law banning any kind of gun that will be supported by the NRA.
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Reno, Nuh VAAAA duh
Dec 23, 2012 - 10:45pm PT
When only outlaws have guns, the police will shoot the outlaws.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 23, 2012 - 10:47pm PT
Yeah, TGT , I was just going to point that out to Anders.

Base 104's invasion of the smurfs scenario is not realistic, however using the unabashedly anti-gun ownership platform of the UN as an excuse to be part of the gang is.

For the first time in man's history (and that of this country) more humans live in cities than rural areas. The demographic is changing and firearms are becoming more of a foreign tool to the population.
The anti-gun crowd is attempting to use this to erode piecemeal gun rights. On this much I agree with some of the more strident voices here.

Overall I hope that they fail.
But if the type of "ban" that they tried two decades ago comes back I stand to make a $hitpile of $.
Win/ win.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 23, 2012 - 10:52pm PT
Well Anders already answered. I wish he would define assault weapon.

The gun owners that would ban defense weapons because they only own hunting pieces are a myopic judases (judasses? judi?), the exceptions used to "prove" the rule.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Dec 23, 2012 - 10:57pm PT
Nice attempt to redefine the debate. It won't work.

The gun owners that would ban defense weapons because they only own hunting pieces are a myopic judases (judasses? judi?), the exceptions used to "prove" the rule.

We're talking about assault weapons, not defence weapons. Nobody said anything about banning ordinary rifles, shotguns, and pistols. Reasonable regulation as to their acquisition and ownership, no more. The 1994 statute did a reasonable job of defining them, although it could perhaps be improved. Severely restricting assault rifles and such is quite another question.

Are those gun-owners who are in favour of prohibitions on public ownership of machine guns, cannon, bazookas, recoiless rifles, and other heavier weapons then also judases? Even you're smart enough to agree that there are many gun-like weapons that the public shouldn't be able to own, and has no legitimate reason to own. It's just a matter of where the line is drawn, isn't it? And it's been drawn far too permissively.
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Dec 23, 2012 - 10:57pm PT
I said it before, but gun laws make differing sense in differing areas.

Even a crazy guy needs a gun just to eat in interior Alaska. Yeah you can buy store food. If you want to go broke.

I have hung out with a fair number of eskimos and even further south. Those guys love the AR platform and the .223 with a fat clip for bears.

They take down grizzlies with those things. They certainly kill caribou and moose.

I read a book about one guy who would kill caribou with a .22. He would always go for a neck shot and multiple rounds. It actually worked if he was close.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Dec 23, 2012 - 11:00pm PT
Any "assault" weapon ban should apply to police weapons, too.

Not that we ever think we are going to go up against the police, that'd be suicide stupid.

But the "assault" weapon ban should apply to cops too because it is never the job of the police to assault citizens. Cops are armed in order to defend themselves.

Cops should only be allowed to carry / possess Defense Weapons. Weapons only capable of self defense, and useless for assault.

Responsible Citizens should be allowed access to the same weapons.

Glocks and AR's seem to be what the cops like.

Jebus H Bomz

climber
Reno, Nuh VAAAA duh
Dec 23, 2012 - 11:01pm PT
In reality, I believe if we stick with guns, there should be widespread gun education. I'd even tentatively agree with Piton Ron's suggestion citizens should do a public service of some sort for their country, it beats the hell out of what I was doing the first couple of years out of high school.

If we go for guns, take the fear out of it borne from ignorance and put personal responsibility for our country back into the enterprise such that we aren't making threats bordering on sedition because of disloyal outrage.

So many people are simply unable to cope with any deviation in their vision of what the world should be, quickly escalating their rhetoric to threats and widespread fear. Our country needs to toughen the f*#k up and the people need to stop expecting it all for nothing. No, you don't get an awesome country by dodging your taxes. No, your life will not be worth a sh#t when your sole aspiration is to suck from the welfare nipple, whether that teat is pumping public assistance or corporate bailouts.

I don't like the gun nut rhetoric, but I don't feel a knee jerk the other way is gonna get it done either.

I do, of course, enjoy trolling the sh#t out of this topic when I can ;).
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 23, 2012 - 11:01pm PT
Nice try Anders, but the primary reason that people own these weapons is for defense, although as has already been pointed out it is possible to make a tack driver out of the AR platform.



Even cops own ARs for defense. I know personally of several cases.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Dec 23, 2012 - 11:03pm PT
I actually hope something like that actually does happen, and soon - the high-definition footage of a wingnut compound disintegrating via Apache, broadcast thousands of times on every news outlet in the world, would collapse the gun industry overnight.

Nice sociopathic rant... you actually want people who you know nothing personally about, but different from you, to die. On TV nonetheless in a hail of Apache gunfire.




Jebus H Bomz

climber
Reno, Nuh VAAAA duh
Dec 23, 2012 - 11:04pm PT
What's wrong with wishing people dead, fear?

Last verified sociopath I heard of was the gun totin' variety, unfortunately for your hyperbole.

Jghedge, the psychic sociopath! F*#k, we gonna persecute him for his sinful thoughts now? You sound like a religious whack job.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 23, 2012 - 11:08pm PT
Anders, right tool for the job.

Inuit use .223 on everything. Its cheap, but for a big bear I'd want a shotgun or .45-70, but taking caribou with a .22lr might not be an ethical kill.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Dec 23, 2012 - 11:10pm PT
But you think the citizens are the enemy of the people?

The cops aren't the only ones dealing with unsavory elements.
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Reno, Nuh VAAAA duh
Dec 23, 2012 - 11:13pm PT
Some citizens are. We certainly aren't well trained professionals adequate to the task of policing ourselves.

The cops aren't the only ones dealing with unsavory elements.

I'd really love to see the stats where you abso-frickin-lutely "need" ARs and the like to do "deal" with these elements. Outside some vigilante movie nonsense, I'd bet a simple six shooter properly deployed is the most anybody needs in the vast majority of self defense situations.

Criminals are lazy cowards by definition, do you really think they are going to continue coming at you in the face of any armed resistance? If you've got some much more serious, sophisticated fellas coming at you, you are probably worm food regardless unless you're some extremely well trained and skilled operator.
wilbeer

Mountain climber
honeoye falls,ny.greeneck alleghenys
Dec 23, 2012 - 11:18pm PT
30% of americans own a gun ,i dont care where you live ,country,city.nobody ,either here or in gov has the balls to put it to a vote.......americans avoiding democracy.just get in line w/the4 million of the nra .theres a plan
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Dec 23, 2012 - 11:21pm PT
You missed the point I was making, jghedge.

Here, hold my hand. I'll walk you through it.



Cops carry weapons for self defense purposes, not to assault people.

Cops are professionals, obviously.

When I'm looking for a tool for a job, the first thing I do is find out what the pros use.

And for self defense, apparently the Glock and the AR are what works.

You want to ban self defense tools? Because that's what you're proposing.

Remember. Not everyone's fourtunate enough to be white, and live in a peaceful neighborhood. For a lot of folks, self defense is more than theory. It's survival.



That wasn't so bad. Now, was it?
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 23, 2012 - 11:24pm PT
Sort of inconvenient that more criminals are shot by civilians than cops.

Every month there is a list of newspaper articles describing justified shootings.
So common it would never make national news.



Shhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Dec 23, 2012 - 11:24pm PT
You know why? That's because citizens are f*#king EVERYWHERE.

Cops are few and far between, especially when you need one.
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Dec 23, 2012 - 11:26pm PT
Exactly Chaz.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 23, 2012 - 11:29pm PT
Hint: It isn't the same thing as self-defense

Cops are allowed to shoot when it is not in defense? Since when?
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Reno, Nuh VAAAA duh
Dec 23, 2012 - 11:33pm PT
That's why there should be more emphasis on education, gun and otherwise, and support afterwards. I know some here would insta-cream their fruit of the looms if they shot somebody down, but others like myself would feel a little bloody handed. Sh#t doesn't go down how it does in the movies, and we're not steely-eyed Clint Eastwood.

My job of the moment is dealing with mentally unstable people, probably why I keep coming to these threads ;). Anyway, the security folk and personnel who are most effective de-escalate situations rather than "pulling the trigger" by doing take downs and the like. If you resort to a firearm, that is a failure to some extent. Unavoidable sometimes for sure, but it should not be seen as the hope, that is a sick, murderous mindset, the kind celebrated in the bushmaster advertisement campaign I'm sure.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Dec 23, 2012 - 11:36pm PT
Then why aren't 12,000 a year dying in the UK, instead of 35?

In part because the population of the UK is about 1/5 of that of the USA. So if the UK has 35 gun murders a year, the USA should proportionately 'only' have 2,400. Something like that, anyway - perhaps there's a crime studier around who could help with this.
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Reno, Nuh VAAAA duh
Dec 23, 2012 - 11:36pm PT
You're right JGHedge. While I support guns, you have to acknowledge the fact there IS a price being paid. If not, you are a liar at the very least to yourself. Without guns you would have less gun deaths. If you don't acknowledge that, you are a fundamentalist to whom facts don't matter. Accept that this is the cost and try to work within that to decrease the toll.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 23, 2012 - 11:37pm PT
Umm..if they see someone shooting/raping/assualting someone else?

Why did you change from "self-defense" to "defense"?

Uh,...... because its still a defensive shooting, just like if they shoot a guy pointing a gun at another cop.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 23, 2012 - 11:43pm PT
Actually civilians can be justified in using lethal force to defend certain other people.








Too much noise, time out for a quality libation.
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Reno, Nuh VAAAA duh
Dec 23, 2012 - 11:51pm PT
So why do all these supposed trad climbers want sport climber guns? Isn't there any pride in the six shooter, really knowing how to do that sh#t ground up cowboy style?

Only one I heard preaching that was KSolem. Trad climbers should have trad guns. Revolvers, lever actions, double barrels. That's all you need, you aren't responding to Heat are you?
Jay Wood

Trad climber
Land of God-less fools
Dec 24, 2012 - 12:05am PT
Studies Re: gun defense in schools



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8QjZY3WiO9s&list=UUlbQJRyYumXUW5hrGjvQNdA&index=9

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLN6_s66wTg
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Dec 24, 2012 - 12:07am PT
By your trad analogy, what should a die-hard aid climber have?

Ice? I've always been partial to old-school double(side by side)12g coach shotguns.

You might be on to something there... Getting slapped in the cheek by those things IS similar to leading WI5 on a cold brittle day. FUN!
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Dec 24, 2012 - 12:10am PT
Wasn't Whitman found to have a large brain tumor?

Piton Ron - initially reports stated Whitman had a tumor, glioblastoma, a type of brain tumor, putting pressure on regions of his brain responsible for the regulation of strong emotions.

Later reports disputed that. I'm no expert. Maybe someone who is can weigh in on this. Even if he did, most folks with brain tumors don't shoot up a bunch of innocents so the role of a tumor (if present) on his behavior seems up to debate imo.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Dec 24, 2012 - 12:22am PT
But the "assault" weapon ban should apply to cops too because it is never the job of the police to assault citizens.

You are seriously crazy. Your crazy thinking led to the shooting of a number of police officers in my community, when they did not have the firepower to deal with TWO guys in body armor who decided to take out a phalanx of cops while robbing a bank:

Local patrol officers at the time were typically armed with their personal 9 mm or .38 Special pistols, with some having a 12-gauge shotgun available in their cars. Phillips and Mătăsăreanu carried illegally modified fully automatic AKMs and an AR-15 rifle with high capacity drum magazines and ammunition capable of penetrating police body armor. They also wore body armor of their own. Since the police handguns could not penetrate the bank robbers' body armor, the patrol officers' bullets were ineffective. SWAT eventually arrived with rifles powerful enough to penetrate the body armor. Several officers also appropriated AR-15 rifles from a nearby firearms dealer. The incident sparked debate on the need for patrol officers to upgrade their capabilities in similar situations in the future.[4]

Because of the large number of injuries, rounds fired, weapons used, and overall length of the shootout, it is regarded as one of the longest and bloodiest events in US police history.[5] This incident would later lead to California enforcing a highly restrictive law on firearms, including the controversial "10-round magazine-only" law for most firearms owned by state residents.


Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Dec 24, 2012 - 12:49am PT
If there were an armed guard in a school, a student shooter would probably just walk up behind him and off him first thing, then the shooter would have twice as many guns. A big kid could probably whack him with a baseball bat and get the gun!

Just sayin. Plus, teacher are being laid off in droves and somebody wants to pay armed guys to hang out in schools? To save a few kids every few years? Seems misguided

Credit: Karl Baba

Credit: Karl Baba
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Dec 24, 2012 - 12:51am PT
Crimpergirl writes:

"Exactly Chaz."

Thanks, C.G.

One more thing: Your Fellow Citizen is a good person. You can trust him with a car, an AR, or your kid. Seriously.

This was hammered home the first professional bar fight I was in. I had just turned 21, I had been tending bar for a couple weeks. One night I had to hop the bar to get serious with somebody over something, and we ended up boxing.

While we were boxing, I noticed everybody at the bar standing up to get themselves involved in the boxing too.

I was thinking "ah shit! I'm already busy with this guy, now these all these other guys all want to kick my ass too". Why wouldn't they want to kick my ass? I was the guy who had been charging them $1.50 for fifty cents ( if that ) of booze, over and over again for the last couple of weeks.

But instead, a couple of those guys rushed past me - one shoving me out of the way - to get to the guy I was boxing with, and f*#king flattened the guy!

I tended bar at a bunch of, let's say, less-than-genteel joints for most of the next twenty years, and I saw the same thing happen over and over again. People engaging in momentary violence to secure an on-going peace.

Your fellow citizen - whether armed with an AR ( like the cops ), or not, wants the same things you do. I've seen it demonstrated, over and over again.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Dec 24, 2012 - 01:02am PT
Why do the cops carry weapons, jghedge?

To assault people?

Or for self defense while in dangerous situations?

Whenever I'm looking for a tool, I always base my decision on what The Pros are using.

For self defense, The Pros say use a Glock, a shotgun, and an AR, apparently.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Dec 24, 2012 - 01:06am PT
Valley Village, Hedge.

St. Joes is my hospital.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Dec 24, 2012 - 01:07am PT
I'm in favor of felons and crazy people being denied legal gun possession.

Is that "gun control" ?
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Dec 24, 2012 - 01:20am PT
It's people control.

Guns aren't the problem. Over and over again you've been informed of that, yet you still either play dumb or really are.
dee ee

Mountain climber
citizen of planet Earth
Dec 24, 2012 - 01:34am PT
Say no to guns.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 24, 2012 - 01:34am PT
Pffft.


Sick people take pills.
If you don't take pills you won't be sick.
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Reno, Nuh VAAAA duh
Dec 24, 2012 - 01:39am PT
DNR for P Ron.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Dec 24, 2012 - 01:40am PT
jghedge vwrites:

"Limiting people's access to guns will control their actions?"



Who would want to control someone else's actions?

Only a control freak would think he can control someone else's actions like that.

You're on the same control totem pole as the Right To Life whackos are on.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Dec 24, 2012 - 01:45am PT
Chaz, Ron, et al: By virtue of being citizens of the USA, you are all already under significant limitations. One of them being the kinds of weapons that you, or anyone, can own. Those limitations are primarily for public safety, and if anything are much too generous when it comes to firearms. The balance is way out of kilter.

Given the healthcare decision last summer, the election in November, and the likelihood that Obama will be appointing several justices, it would be interesting to see just how your supreme court would handle a new federal gun control statute that sought to restore some balance. Even the so-called strict constructionists would be on the horns of a dilemma.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Dec 24, 2012 - 03:26am PT
Also bear in mind that while Obama will be officially out of office in 2016, his stature and proven track record as a constitutional scholar will ensure that he's involved in choosing SC nominees for several more decades to come - in fact he could very well end up being a SC justice himself, unless there's some rule against that I'm unaware of

I think Obama was our best choice and Like much about him but geez, once Obama claimed the right to indefinitely detain citizens without due process and even assassinate citizens without due process he lost all claim to have any respect for the constitution.

He and Bush share the distinction of two presidents who have done the most on the road to disrespecting the constitution in my mind

Peace

Karl
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Dec 24, 2012 - 11:02am PT
All I know is reading the "rap" sheet (violence, corruption, vigilantism, etc) of some of those NRA board members make the Weathermen, Symbionese Liberation Army, IRA, Red Brigade, and other fascists groups, look like beginners.
dirtbag

climber
Dec 24, 2012 - 11:31am PT
Actually, other presidents have done things that are even more outrageously illegal and/or unconstitutional.

Obviously Nixon comes to mind.

But Lincoln suspended habeas corpus and Adams championed the Alien and Sedition Acts.

Not to give Obama a pass, but he isn't much different from other Presidents.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Dec 24, 2012 - 11:40am PT
Actually, other presidents have done things that are even more outrageously illegal and/or unconstitutional.

Obviously Nixon comes to mind.

There's a difference between doing something Illegal and having an unconstitutional policy that your enshrine forever. I might grant you Nixon, but probably not for the reasons you think. He was part of this horrible trend of going to war without declaring war by congress as required by the constitution by calling it a "police action." Nixon didn't get us into Viet Nam through so he is really a secondary criminal, like Obama, in that regard. He didn't start anything as bad as Bush started, he just used it and made it normal

But Lincoln suspended habeas corpus and Adams championed the Alien and Sedition Acts.

Not to give Obama a pass, but he isn't much different from other Presidents.

yup, you practically have to back to Lincoln to get as unconstitutional as Bush and I blame Obama for using Bush's excess and making it normal

Peace

Karl
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Dec 24, 2012 - 11:41am PT
Karl and Dirtbag are correct. It seems a longstanding policy that presidents can get such legislation passed. Though I am surprised that Obama, who I like (but didn't vote for in 2008), being a so-called constitutional lawyer/expert, would continue and perhaps indeed make such legislation even more draconian.

I think that by continuing policies that Dubya/Cheney instigated, in my mind it puts a huge blot on Obama as a president. In fact, policies that have been in place, for the most part, at least since WW2. I won't go into Manifest Destiny or anything, or what the country's founders thought were good policies, ie guns for militias, because those were the times, right or wrong (ie native American "genocide" and forced renewal). And slavery.

But the US has been living, and is a global power, in the 20th and 21st centuries, and should be showing more moral courage. To say the least. But politicians suck on the teat of corporations and big business.

And of course, the NRA is one of the most powerful lobby groups in the States.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Dec 24, 2012 - 11:55am PT
Many people see terrorism as "war" against a foreign enemy - I see it simply as crime. But war is more profitable than law enforcement...

Well said and worth repeating.
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Reno, Nuh VAAAA duh
Dec 24, 2012 - 12:00pm PT
Why do people with no legal training think that a Constitutional scholar must interpret the Constitution exactly as they would?

Because people good at one or two other things think they can generalize that knowledge?
guido

Trad climber
Santa Cruz/New Zealand/South Pacific
Dec 24, 2012 - 12:02pm PT
From the Minsistry of Dumbf*#kery:
Huckabeeeee you dumbshit!
Huckabeeeee you dumbshit!
Credit: guido
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Dec 24, 2012 - 12:09pm PT
Well Dr Lecter don't hold back, tell us what you really think. LOL!
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Dec 24, 2012 - 12:11pm PT
"...once Obama claimed the right to indefinitely detain citizens without due process and even assassinate citizens without due process..."

A few Al-Qaeda activists who were in active cells, who got capped along with the other terrorists

Dude, Obama called a second strike on the 16 year old US citizen KID of that US citizen Cleric that they drone-killed. (and even the cleric hadn't been proved of anything besides being a cheerleader for terrorism, (bad, but how different that folks here cheerleading for bombing Iran?)

and plus, saying "but Obama is only using this blatantly unconstitutional power wisely and sparingly" is the biggest BS ever. Obama may even BE wise and sparing but, believe it or not, we could even get Jeb Bush in the white house in 2016 (or some worse Dumbf^&k eventually) and they are likely to abuse the power that we fail to question now

Peace

Karl
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Reno, Nuh VAAAA duh
Dec 24, 2012 - 12:15pm PT
That's why there should be a predator drone in every house, Karl. To combat the gubb mint.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Dec 24, 2012 - 12:29pm PT
Jeb Bush? Actually, as I understand it, the GOP wanted him to run in 2000, but Karl Rove stepped in, and... we know what happened there.

Again, look at some of the history of the NRA board members, not so pretty in my eyes.

As for me, I have no solutions on violence in schools. Throwing more guns at the problem doesn't seem logical, considering the past history.

Will education and social change work? I don't know, I just grieve for 20 dead children and six adults, as much as I imagine people in Palestine, Israel, Afghanistan, African conflicts and so on grieve for innocent (young) victims.

But from what I read, and maybe it is just my perspective, the NRA is being run by a bunch of nutters nowadays.

There must be some sort of solution. Rational, logical minds are needed not knee-jerks like Wayne LaPierre.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Dec 24, 2012 - 12:39pm PT
Hedge you are right on! But reading the above it is clear that the biggest boobs on StupidTorpor are here and not on Anastasia's thread.
Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
Dec 24, 2012 - 12:41pm PT
I sold my gun collection to get through medical school. Not only was that in desperation, but also it was quite apropos.

I got quite a penny for the assault rifles, selling them on the corner of Story & King.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Dec 24, 2012 - 12:43pm PT
Hey howz that gravel quarry comin along Rong?
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Dec 24, 2012 - 12:48pm PT
Jebus, actually I do have a predator in the house, but it is not a drone. The little fecker, who we love, brings in live and dead birds and mouses.

Otherwise, as aforementioned, I have no solution to gun violence, anywhere. I wonder if anybody does.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Dec 24, 2012 - 12:51pm PT
As I stated earlier it isn't a "stupid pill" problem it is a G-Spot issue.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Dec 24, 2012 - 01:20pm PT
Karl, counter-terrorism is quite dirty work. Everything I've ever read on it shows it to be so, and there is no way that you can put lipstick on the pig.

One of the critical things operationally, is to protect methods and sources.

So the gov't launches a drone attack against a group, and wipes them out. I am outraged, and post to high heaven about out inappropriate and unconstitutional that was. I don't know that the group was observed killing the family members of Navy Seals, and that fact is trying to be suppressed so as to not let others know that strategy worked. But I find out, and leak it, because I believe in freedom of information. And I press, and I press for WHO observed this....I think maybe nobody did, and it was just a convenient excuse to off this group. But finally, my persistance pays off, and I get the scoop. I weigh the issue of the remainder of the world-wide terrorist network coming after the observer, vs the "right to know", and decide on the side of liberty. The headlines ring out throughout the land: KARL BABA "ALLEGED" WITNESS TO SLAUGHTER.

And the great thing is, the Gov't has made no deal to waste resources having to protect or hide you, in the newest iteration of Salman Rushdie.

Aren't I one effing patriot in that scenario, Karl.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Dec 24, 2012 - 01:46pm PT
"You think you're going to shoot it out with the cops, and you're going to kill them all and win, and then the gov't will...what? Just leave you alone?"


That's how they're doing it in Afghanistan.

If a bunch of illiterate cavemen wielding small arms can run TWO superpowers out of town, why are you so quick to write off a much more advanced civilization, such as our own?
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Dec 24, 2012 - 01:50pm PT
Yeah Philoww,, i know your hate for me is much like your hate for your brother .. Youll go to any length to get you digs in here, even if it involves the decimation of a popular climbing area that YOU obviously dont give a rip one about.

Wrong again Rongo. I hate neither you nor my brother. I loathe the misinformed right wing bagger programming you both constantly barf up. You both jump to extreme conclusions that are usually completely wrong. For example your willfully uninformed impression that the removal of some surface boulders smaller than three feet in diameter is tantamount to the decimation of a popular climbing area. Do you climb a great many 3' rocks?

a much more advanced civilization, such as our own?
Note to the wingnut brain trust - it is an oxymoron to include yourself in the concept of a much more advanced civilization. A "much more advanced CIVILIZATION" would not need stock piled arsenals and plans for armed insurrection.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Dec 24, 2012 - 01:55pm PT
Or crotch rot from sweating in their mantyhose.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Dec 24, 2012 - 02:04pm PT
Ken M: I don't buy it. Those who would shred the constitution for a tiny extra protection against terrorism deserve nothing.

Terrorists have killed about 1/10 of the people in the US in the past 8 years than Falling coconuts kill worldwide in one year. And for that tiny bit of extra protection we're willing to let the president kill anyone, anywhere, far from any congress declared war (as if that constitutional requirement to declare war was observed anymore) That's madness and that's how tyranny starts

Those who would sacrifice freedom for security deserve neither~ Benjamin Franklin

We're rockclimbers. Let's not sign up with the crowd to be a nation of cowards

Peace

Karl
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Dec 24, 2012 - 02:26pm PT
So we have had all states put up petitions to withdraw from the Union,, which is a first. There are still states pursuing this as well. Also for the first time we have states in direct violation of fed arms laws that have refused to change their own laws. (Montana) This is unprecedented actions by states. I certainly never remember such things in my fiddy some years.
The talk in washington over all of this has led to agencies such as the IRS and SS to procure millions of rounds of hollow point ammo from 9mm to 223 and above. This is also unprecedented as never before have such agencies been involved in such massive ammo stock piles..

These are all well known facts.

So why do they now stockpile millions of rounds of hollow point ammo here in this country? Does anyone even wonder about those little details?

You all talk about GUN NUTS yet seemingly ignore the fact that you own govt is making GUN NUTS look sane by comparison.

That is why organizations like "Oath Keepers" have sprang up and grown rapidly. And they are for the most, either current or former military personnel. DEDICATED to the preservation of our constitution and their oaths.. That is another reason the govt now buys massive amounts of ammo, as they are the same military personnel that have been used in illegal wars and police actions that resulted in no change what so ever. From Nam to Afghanistan.. And they for the most are PISSED OFF!

No, they are traitors to the Union.

Patriots do not attempt to undermine the Union. They do not talk about assasinating the leaders of the Union.

They don't LIE and MAKE UP CRAP, like the stuff you put up, above.

They don't do straw purchases of firearms while active law enforcement officers to subvert laws.

They don't attempt to break off states from the Union, centered around military organization and firearms.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 24, 2012 - 02:35pm PT
Chaz, I'm on your side but I'm afraid that the Afghans are so warlike that they are the world's expert at expelling foreign invaders for millennia now.

Must be all the intramural games.LOL


Used to be that Americans were rugged and independent but 3-4 generations of the nanny tit allowed us to forget.
Fat dumb and happy, Franklin's warning is lost on them.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Dec 24, 2012 - 02:50pm PT
Corporations are people too. How do you like that?
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Dec 24, 2012 - 02:52pm PT
Ron, these are the "anti-gov't" killer-nut "patriots" that you like to hang out with, saving America from our gov't:

A gunman set a trap and shot and killed two firefighters responding to an early morning blaze in Webster, N.Y., police officials said. Two other firefighters were also shot and both are listed in guarded condition at a local hospital.

"It does appear that it was a trap that was set for first responders, but the cause or reasons we don't have at this time," said Webster Police Chief Gerald Pickering as he described the scene where shots were fired at West Webster firefighters when they arrived at 5:35 a.m. to battle the blaze along Lake Road. Webster is about 10 miles east of Rochester.

The apparent gunman was found dead at the scene, but it’s unclear if he was killed by a self-inflicted gunshot or if it was from a weapon from police officers who were chasing him.

The victims were Mike Chiapperini, also a lieutenant and public information officer with the local police department, and Tomasz Kaczowka, Pickering said.

Chiapperini was described by Pickering as a lifelong firefighter who started with the department's explorer program and had about 20 years of experience. Kaczowka was a younger firefighter and was also a 911 dispatcher, he said.

West Webster firefighters Joseph Hofsetter and Theodore Scardino were seriously injured and are at Strong Memorial Hospital with gunshot wounds, a hospital spokeswoman said. Scardino has injuries to his chest and lungs. Hofsetter was injured in the pelvis, the spokeswoman said at a media briefing.

An off-duty police officer from nearby Greece, N.Y. John Ritter was also injured by shrapnel during the shooting, Pickering said.

Pickering said that one of the firefighters who survived made his way across a bridge to get to safety. The other three did not make it across, Pickering said. Police arrived and rescued the other three firefighters, but two were fatally shot, Pickering said.

"These are volunteers who get up in the middle of the night to fight fires. They don't expect to be shot and killed," a tearful Pickering said at the press conference.

The morning scene was described as chaotic as police and firefighters dealt with an immense blaze as well as gunshots, local news station WHAM-TV reports.

“I’m not aware of anything like this happening in Webster, obviously not a firefighter being fired upon,” Webster Fire Marshal Rob Boutillier told the Democrat and Chronicle. Pickering described Webster as resort lakeside community that is quiet and usually peaceful.

There at least four houses that have been damaged by the fire along Lake Road, WHAM-TV reported. Firefighters had to leave the scene and stop battling the blazes while police secured the scene. They continue to battle the blaze.

...
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Dec 24, 2012 - 03:00pm PT
Ron, you shouldn't speak to your elders like that. You wouldn't make it in my tribe.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Dec 24, 2012 - 03:12pm PT
Joe Hedge wrote

There is no way to protect against terrorists that involves giving them the same rights US citizens have

If you're a US citizen in an Al-Qaeda cell, you have effectively renounced your citizenship, so please don't tell me Obama is killing US citizens, just because the US-born terrorists haven't filed the proper paperwork with the State Dept to renounce their citizenship

Don't be a BS hypocrite Hedge. You are smarter than that. When Bush was doing the same things, you were crying foul (with good cause)

That 16 year old kid was not a part of any Al Queda cell, particularly in some bum f*#k nation that hasn't managed to attack us anywhere. THere are plenty of people on this very thread who want to have assault weapons in case they have to fight the government someday. Aren't they just as fair game? Aren't they potential terrorists too? Have they effectively renounced their citizenship too?

Don't let your partisanship make you lame. People aren't able to effectively police the other party. We need to check our own side to make sure we stay with truth and freedom

Peace

karl
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Dec 24, 2012 - 03:13pm PT
Ron, those are the same type of tactics (roadside bombs, ambushes) Chaz said could be employed in this country to take the government down if they lose some gun rights.

Which side will you choose if it comes down to that?
wilbeer

Mountain climber
honeoye falls,ny.greeneck alleghenys
Dec 24, 2012 - 03:13pm PT
im a first responder ,just outside of rochester.our thoughts to the families.
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Dec 24, 2012 - 03:21pm PT
You've got to be kidding? So would police officers enforcing gun laws be ok to kill.

You gotta kill a few of them first, to get the Apaches warming up.

And how would roadside bombs not endanger firefighters?
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Dec 24, 2012 - 03:33pm PT
Comments like Ken made to me regarding my "brother" firemen would if said in person, likely end up with a kick to the teeth.


Like I said, Ron, threats of violence, mixed with guns, alcohol...make you a very dangerous person.

Your FIRST instinct is to commit violent acts if you don't like what someone is saying.

THAT is what the guy who killed volunteer firefighters was doing. He had a grievance. I'm sure it was irrational. But his response was to commit violence...like you.

Your brother.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Dec 24, 2012 - 03:37pm PT
GFYS Ken.. You have NO CLUE as to i hang out with. And it ISNT anyone that would murder fire fighters..

UNLESS they were part of a GOV'T RESPONSE....because they are PART OF THE GOV'T that you hate so much.

You should consider that your "buddies", so eager to take out the gov't "goons" would be talking about YOU, as a USFS LEO. YOU would be their target.

Your brothers.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Dec 24, 2012 - 03:45pm PT
As a sportsman, I've never understood the concept of needing a gun that was semi-auto in nature. Just blasting away, hoping to hit SOMETHING.

Someone wants to hunt, bolt action rifles tend to be more accurate. And powerful. I think that's why snipers favor them.

Spraying weapons don't seem sporting to me.

For home defense, shotguns seem optimal. I understand that most incidents of firing rarely involve more than 10 feet. For people who are not practicing weekly, which is almost everyone not in law enforcement or competition, shotguns take a lot of mis-aim out of the equation.

Serious background checks that cannot be gotten around, should be the order of the day.
Josh Nash

Social climber
riverbank ca
Dec 24, 2012 - 04:04pm PT
As a sportsman, I've never understood the concept of needing a gun that was semi-auto in nature. Just blasting away, hoping to hit SOMETHING.

Someone wants to hunt, bolt action rifles tend to be more accurate. And powerful. I think that's why snipers favor them.

Spraying weapons don't seem sporting to me.

For home defense, shotguns seem optimal. I understand that most incidents of firing rarely involve more than 10 feet. For people who are not practicing weekly, which is almost everyone not in law enforcement or competition, shotguns take a lot of mis-aim out of the equation.

Serious background checks that cannot be gotten around, should be the order of the day.

+1 for common sense and basically how I have felt and have tried to articulate but a lot of people don't see it that way.
I'd like to point out hand grenades. How many people have been slaughtered by hand grenades? You know why? Illegal and not available for public consumption. It works when something inherently dangerous is banned. so why not assault style weapons. There's absolutely no need for them. I spent five years of my life carrying one around for uncle sam and his marine corps. I know the need. I know the need in a combat situation. Since we don't live in a combat situation here stateside I don't really get it. A lot of my friends feel differently and it makes me sad.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Dec 24, 2012 - 04:37pm PT
The thing with banning grenades or mega clips for that matter...

If they are illegal, at least the criminals can get in trouble if they are found with the contraband. If they are legal, you can drive around with them in your trunk and the police can't do squat if they catch you but not red handed, even on the way to a crime

peace

Karl
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Dec 24, 2012 - 04:45pm PT
Ron, you're missing Karl's point entirely.

Go read some literature, the classics. It'll help adjust your perspective by learning trends in how people think.
locker

Social climber
state of Kumbaya...
Dec 24, 2012 - 05:18pm PT


Who is this???...

photo not found
Missing photo ID#280315
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 24, 2012 - 07:41pm PT
The cradle of gun making link in that article was written by a gumby who referred to the ".45 semi-automatic Colt Peacemaker".


WTF!

But it is true that CT has always been big on gun making.
Mimi

climber
Dec 24, 2012 - 08:19pm PT
Dirk, think about it this way. We have armed guards at banks, malls, jewelry stores, high-end schools where politicians and celebrities kids go, art museums, etc. etc. Are not all children worth protecting this way? I guess regular kids don't rate. These are good jobs.

We will never stop a madman from killing. Take all the guns away. Won't change that. Especially in a gun free zone for crying out loud!
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Reno, Nuh VAAAA duh
Dec 24, 2012 - 08:39pm PT
Is not everybody worthy of an armed bodyguard? I implore you!

When only worthy people have armed bodyguards, we will shoot everybody else. Using our bodyguards!
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Dec 24, 2012 - 08:56pm PT
Do you have kids in school?


Mimi, like most of the places you mentioned, there are no armed guards at banks any more. When was the last time, other than armored car pick ups and deliveries, that you saw armed guards at a bank? It is the 21st century they use cameras now.
Proven to be a far better deterrent. Arguing to arm our schools because there are also guns in all these places is a charade. A sick and perverse fools game.

It would cost BILLIONS to put just one armed person in every school in America. It would be better to put the BILLIONS into education. Lord knows the Republicans have cut school districts budgets to the bone. First line of defense is public education.
Mimi

climber
Dec 24, 2012 - 09:22pm PT
Bruce, you are too evolved. We live in a world of savages. I say if we continue to expand government as we are, this job category is a worthy one.

Philo, get rid of a chunk of TSA and we can protect our schools and other public and undefended places. Government waste could be much better spent in this way.

Didn't know that about Columbine. Not an expert in mass shootings. I'm sure much was learned about proper reaction to this type of attack.
Mimi

climber
Dec 24, 2012 - 09:26pm PT
What is gun culture? I believe you may have a skewed view not based on facts with all due respect.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Dec 24, 2012 - 09:34pm PT
You will never stop a determined, intelligent, otherwise f*#king psychotic killer. If you don't fix the root of the problem you waste time and divide an already divided country even deeper. We can fix the problem but there is a lot of money riding on nobody asking those questions.

The problem of this new crop of mass killers is different than that of "gun control".

But few seem to understand that or have the capacity to focus on root issues. They see a "bad guy with a gun" and run off onto the gun control tangent, never to return.

If Adam Lanza had crashed a Mobil tanker into the school and burned 200 or maybe hacked 9 little kids to death with a machete, would that make anyone feel safer? Dead is dead...

Trying to compare Israel to this country is probably the stupidest thing I've ever heard of. Coming in second are comparisons to England.

Stop paying attention to the NRA or whatever the Black Jesus puppet comes up with. Think for yourselves.



Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 24, 2012 - 09:49pm PT
Well could somebody from the ANTI-gun culture please define "assault weapon"?

Isn't it a redundant phrase?

Not all guns are used in assaults. Do we call all spoons in prison "assault spoons"?
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Dec 24, 2012 - 09:59pm PT
Ron did you skip Hooked on Phonics and go straight to Stuck on Semantics?
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Dec 24, 2012 - 10:00pm PT
Toker, check with the Feds, CA and MA. They have no problem defining what an assault weapon is.

Good news for you. There's plenty to quibble about.

Adults sometimes have to draw lines in grey areas. It's part of being a grown-up.
Mimi

climber
Dec 24, 2012 - 10:03pm PT
Bruce, my issue with gun culture as a label is that most gun owners are responsible and don't commit crimes, hence, it's a negative label.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Dec 24, 2012 - 10:05pm PT
Perhaps the "responsible" gun owners should be more proactive in controlling access to weapons of mass murder.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 24, 2012 - 10:29pm PT
They have no problem defining what an assault weapon is.

Wrong again there monotone.
What they do is list makes and models based on how badass they look.

Not a very good way to distinguish when you consider that Mini 14s were not included even though, had they been produced a mere 5 years earlier, they would likely have become our service rifle rather than the M16.

Gas operated high capacity box feed* Garand style carbine that fired the essentially the same cartridge.

*(I do have a beta-mag for one)


So requesting a clear definition based on functional features rather than badassery seems reasonable to me

I said "reasonable" as in common ground,...
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Dec 24, 2012 - 10:29pm PT
I knew you would quibble.

All those gun experts in ATF and elsewhere would be put to shame in a discussion with you.

There is discussion of features in the bans as well as identifying by model.

Do you need a link to the CA list?
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 24, 2012 - 10:32pm PT
Merely asking YOU to define terms.
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Dec 24, 2012 - 10:33pm PT
Toker, you want to get into a quibble fight with someone who is not an expert on guns.

Seen it quite a few times from you.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 24, 2012 - 10:36pm PT
So,................ you can't.
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Dec 24, 2012 - 10:37pm PT
Yes I can, just not to you satisfaction, ever. No one can.

I've read the bans that list features and by model.

You can get much better info by going directly to the ban documents, but you aren't interested.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 24, 2012 - 10:40pm PT
Well thats an understatemenr!
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Reno, Nuh VAAAA duh
Dec 24, 2012 - 10:42pm PT
You will never stop a determined, intelligent, otherwise f*#king psychotic killer. If you don't fix the root of the problem you waste time and divide an already divided country even deeper. We can fix the problem but there is a lot of money riding on nobody asking those questions.

The Chinese stabbings on the very same day as the Lanza massacre don't really jibe with your argument. Guns make it very convenient to kill, whatever the root cause. If guns didn't, why would hunters favor guns rather than, say, slingshots?

Let's own up to what guns are and what they can do, not quibble with semantics and pretend they are something else. Take some responsibility!

Let's speak plainly about the capabilities of guns and go from there, whichever way we move. As Piton Ron points out, it is bad enough obfuscation exists in the very basic terms of the argument, much less when people deny the most obvious features that make guns desirable in the first place. It's patronizing and many see through it easily.

And "Black Jesus puppet"? Really? Lame.

If you are arguing there is a new type of killer, it would seem this type of killer is one of convenience. They are not grabbing revolvers, rigging bombs and enacting complicated schemes; they are grabbing very convenient weapons that work very well for this job and simply plodding into crowded areas and pulling the trigger. These are Americans who want murder done their way.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 24, 2012 - 10:50pm PT
I don't deny that they are efficient tools for killing.
But if criminals can get them easily (and they always will) then why not at least allow a level playing field?

If I have violent perps breaking in and I find it necessary to dispatch them with an AR then it is not an assault rifle , it is a defense rifle.

Assault weapon is a deliberately pejorative term.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Dec 24, 2012 - 10:51pm PT
Do you have violent perps breaking in?
pud

climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
Dec 24, 2012 - 11:04pm PT
I needed some ammo for plinking in the desert so I went to nearby gun shop.
It was packed and all their ammo was gone. Went to walmart and thier stock was gone also.
Went to the big gunshop 30 miles away and there was a 2-3 hour wait. the place was packed. Hit up another big one, same wait time.
Finally ended up buying online.

The dealers I spoke with said it was a total panic buy and they "emptied the shelves" numerous times since the 14th.

All the places except walmart push NRA membership and a lot of the folks buying are first time firearm owners. Hopefully, they'll do their homework before joining this organization.
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Reno, Nuh VAAAA duh
Dec 24, 2012 - 11:07pm PT
I don't deny that they are efficient tools for killing.
But if criminals can get them easily (and they always will) then why not at least allow a level playing field?

If I have violent perps breaking in and I find it necessary to dispatch them with an AR then it is not an assault rifle , it is a defense rifle.

Assault weapon is a deliberately pejorative term.


I don't agree that we couldn't do as the UK do and all but eliminate guns from the criminal tool box. I don't believe only outlaws would have guns, or that law enforcement couldn't outgun them and make them pay in blood for their choice of weapon. Our country can do whatever it wants, and slippery slope arguments just don't hold water (because, you know, the angle).

If we have guns remain part of our culture, we need to stop this handing the government our ammo talk. That sh#t should frighten and piss off anybody who loves this country. One of my clearest memories of that phrase, in fact, was on the shirt of a friend's sister's neo nazi boyfriend's shirt. That rhetoric's not acceptable in my book unless you are going to bust a cap in the next government official's ass you see. At least then you wouldn't be such a driveling hypocrite.

We need better education about guns and honest talk that acknowledges, yes, guns ARE dangerous. They f*#king are, don't dress that sh#t up. You OWN a gun BECAUSE it's dangerous. Managing danger, then, is the key, just as it is in climbing. Less charged language, and more focus on education is the way to go. Really, something needs to be done to bridge the gap between gun owners and the non gun owning public, something that puts guns in the hands of people who would otherwise not have shot one. That should be the focus of those who want to avoid restrictions on their firearms. Not the unrealistic sh#t being thrown down the line that A) won't work, B) makes us look like a 3rd world, paranoid country, and C) offends the sh#t out of people in a delicate time.

If you are a reasonable gun owner, talk honestly, and disassociate yourself from paranoid types that make everybody nervous thinking, damn, that whackjob has access to some finely crafted killing machinery? People are smoking too much paranoia nowadays.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Dec 24, 2012 - 11:08pm PT
I remember when they created a fear of an impending toilet paper shortage in the 70s. Then a feared coffee shortage. Then a gas shortage. Same crazy panic buying. You all taught those Madison Avenue marketing mavens a powerful lesson to be sure. And now it is a Happy Holidays for the gun and ammo corporations.
photo not found
Missing photo ID#280406
By the way I hear there will be a dire shortage of gravel. Stock up stupid humans.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Dec 24, 2012 - 11:23pm PT
They were selling "bulletproof" little kid backpacks at a Walgreens tonight. They had 500 this morning and were down to about 50 from the looks of it.... WTF??!

Every gun shop in the area has Woodstock level crowds.

Fear has always been a great business unfortunately.



Have a good X-mas, Kwanza, Festivus, etc... everyone!

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 24, 2012 - 11:37pm PT
Do you have violent perps breaking in?

Never happen, huh?

From the BD thread;
A year ago a man Hugh on pcp broke into our house and tried to kill me and my girlfriend. When you have to fight for your life and almost end up losing it because you did not have a way to defend yourself you may change your way of thinking. Before that I never had a desire for a gun.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Dec 24, 2012 - 11:56pm PT
Philo writes:

"Do you have violent perps breaking in?"


How the hell do I know what I'll be having? That's the thing about emergencies; You can't predict them. They tend to crop up unexpectedly. Because if you could see violence coming, you would just avoid the scene completely.
Todd Eastman

climber
Bellingham, WA
Dec 25, 2012 - 12:00am PT
NRA members = Orcs!
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Reno, Nuh VAAAA duh
Dec 25, 2012 - 12:07am PT
Credit: Jebus H Bomz
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Dec 25, 2012 - 02:41am PT
They were selling "bulletproof" little kid backpacks at a Walgreens tonight. They had 500 this morning and were down to about 50 from the looks of it.... WTF??!

Pretty wild. Humans are so funny about fear. You look at what people fear and what really kills people and people are all gripped about the things that aren't the real risks. Peope fear flying but not driving!

Unintentional injury is the number one killer of children ages 1 to 14 in the U.S.

In 2008, 4,643 children ages 14 and under died from unintentional injury.
In 2009, 6,178,000 children ages 14 and under sustained unintentional nonfatal injuries treated in emergency departments.
Almost one-third of deaths among children ages 1 to 14 are due to unintentional injury.
The leading causes of injury-related death among children ages 14 and under are motor vehicle crashes, suffocation, drowning and fires and/or burns.
The leading cause of nonfatal injury for children ages 14 and under is unintentional falls.

Safer and cheaper to make kids wear waterwings anytime they are near water
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Dec 25, 2012 - 03:09am PT
Nobody reads the last post on a page
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Dec 25, 2012 - 03:14am PT
Americans are weird. There's a shoe bomber and now we have to take off our shoes. There was a rumor (they didn't really have anything) about a liquid bomber, and now I have to take my shoes off to get on a plane. Let's hope somebody doesn't rig a penile implant with explosives.

So we make our rules after a crisis.

but Somebody could take an AR 15 with some big clips into an airport lobby and open fire on huge long lines of people waiting for security check to get on that plane and probably dozens would be dead before they shot him.

and if he did that at the line to get into Disneyland, even more would die

Our security thinking is always in the missionary position. Good thing real terrorism and real nutcase are far more rare than we fear

Peace

Karl
pud

climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
Dec 25, 2012 - 12:15pm PT
I hope everyone reading this has a BOMBER Christmas!
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 25, 2012 - 02:04pm PT
And there might be a few people from Connecticut (I grew up in Westport) who feel differently.

Isn't the NSSF office in Newtown?





Cosmiccragsman

Trad climber
AKA Dwain, from Apple Valley, Ca. and Vegas!
Dec 25, 2012 - 02:09pm PT


Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 25, 2012 - 03:51pm PT
Isn't that the Xmas card that a sheriff sent out to a bunch of parolees warning them not to get into trouble in the coming year?
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Dec 25, 2012 - 07:04pm PT
Assault weapon is a deliberately pejorative term.

Really? So you are saying that the manufacturers, who created these weapons for military use with specific performance characteristics in mind, were dissing their own products?

That soldiers, referring to such weapons, are actually making a derogatory statement about their rifles?

Really?
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Dec 25, 2012 - 07:05pm PT

Hilarious!

These guys want COMPLETE freedom (but I guess not of newspapers).

They want their right to PRIVACY (which they say the Constitution does not guarantee to citizens.)

Hmmmmm.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 25, 2012 - 07:45pm PT
A gun dealer on the CBS national news just nominated Diane Feinstein and Obama as Salespersons Of The Year!!!


No shlt!
Check out this Gallil

There is a day and a half left and the bid is well over $11,000.


http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=322378171


Good news for me over the short term at least.
Riley spoke of the tulip boom and bust in 1636-37.
Timing is everything. Some people made fortunes.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 25, 2012 - 07:56pm PT
Who says I'm a buyer?

I'm thinking of doing a little profit taking.
pud

climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
Dec 25, 2012 - 08:15pm PT
Joe, why are you such a hostile, negative individual?

There is little value in your rhetoric and you are constantly condemning others for not thinking as you do.
Get out and climb a little or whatever brings you peace.

Save us your grief, please.
kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
Dec 25, 2012 - 08:20pm PT
If guns are outlawed, only geeks will be printing guns! btw. I don't think this is a great development....

http://www.kvue.com/news/printable-guns-184691571.html

http://defensedistributed.com/
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 25, 2012 - 08:35pm PT
Ultra light AR with a $7,500 bid.


http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=323412078
happiegrrrl

Trad climber
www.climbaddictdesigns.com
Dec 25, 2012 - 08:57pm PT
Question: Would you be concerned if you had a nephew, about 18 years old, who posted these images and quite a few others like them to his Facebook page in the past two months? The images started showing up a few months ago, around the time his father left the US for another 9 months in the Middle East. Also about that time he posted to his FB asking who would support him if he joined National Guard.

His father is an Army National Guard and pilot who, for the last few years has been been working in Afghanistan about 9 months out of a year, and according to his FB page, works for http://www.avengeinc.com. He can not tell his family specifics as to what he does.

Credit: happiegrrrl

Credit: happiegrrrl

Credit: happiegrrrl

Credit: happiegrrrl

Credit: happiegrrrl

I am not concerned he is going to do something violent to innocent people here,but more concerned he is going to enlist in some military group with a "shoot 'em up" attitude.

To me, it seems this sort of glorification of weapons use seems to be not a healthy state of mind, especially out of a young man who is just barely coming into adulthood, and whose father has been overseas the majority of last few years working in this way. I worry he is trying to "be a good soldier" for his dad, but it may have taken him over a point that is emotionally healthy.

I have been wanting to bring up the subject with his mother, my sister, but not sure what to say.
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Reno, Nuh VAAAA duh
Dec 25, 2012 - 09:23pm PT
Is she a psychologist studying that particular subject??! Strange request otherwise.

I would say it has a lot with being young and full of testosterone but then I know some guys who are older than me posting essentially the same stuff. Hell, some of them are here!
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Dec 25, 2012 - 09:29pm PT
deleted and start over:


so what IS with the "glorification of weapons" that happygirl refers to?

so many "no regulation of any kind" people here seem to have that pathology

they can go on and on about every kind of weapon, every kind of ammo

they wax sentimentally about killing animals (hunting) although no doubt most all of them truly can afford to buy their food at the market

they seem to get almost hysterically defensive at any suggestion that seeks to mitigate wholesale human slaughter that "it won't work" right NOW, while conveniently leaving out of their thought process that it COULD "work" years later IF put into effect NOW

they don't "need" to put thousands of rounds at targets all year around just to stay sharp enough to kill a statistically very very unlikely home intruder

so why not just say it, men "glorify" weapons because they make loud noises, are cool to talk about and fondle, and well, are manly things to play with, and god damn no one is going to take my fun sh#t away from me, I felt the same way about my cap guns when I was five. I own two handguns now, I know how to aim and shoot them, but I have not shot them in some years, nor do I give a damn to know all about the arcane details of their ballistics, I guess other things in life interest me more than my guns.

happiegrrrl

Trad climber
www.climbaddictdesigns.com
Dec 25, 2012 - 09:40pm PT
Norton - I didn't suggest "a link" of any kind. What wrote was:
this sort of glorification of weapons use seems to be not a healthy state of mind,

I think one would have to be pretty obtuse to say those images are not glorifying weaponry. And my concern is that he is considering military service with the perspective that he will be handed a gun, be told "go git it", and then be doing just that.

What would happen to a guy with that mindset, upon finding out that what he is going to be "gittin" is a lot of basic training and orientation to authority. You'd hope he would understand what starting at the bottom means, especially in military, but I am in fear he doesn't have realistic expectations. I think he wants to be a "chip off the old block" and quickly. I can't help worrying he is too itchy on the trigger, and would think that is a bad, bad, thing should he enlist.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Dec 25, 2012 - 10:21pm PT
Happie...

I've had the privilege to teach basic ice climbing to some very young Marines returning from recent tours in various recent hellholes. Officers and enlisted. Most saw some direct action.

While all of them seemed quite intelligent, they also had an almost uniform ingrained blind bravado like I've never seen before. Very much "into firearms" and totally gung-ho with an extremely aggressive attitude towards the "enemy" when those cold belay discussions turned into war stories.

Nice kids mind you but it appeared their hard experiences in real combat did not diminish their zeal for killing "the enemy". They seemed to take direction extremely well, even from me. I'd imagine they will all continue to do well in the field of combat assuming their luck holds out. What struck me the most was how 'cold' they were about fallen friends. "Sucks., but they knew what they were getting into" was a common refrain. They might not feel that way 20 years from now when they're 45. I don't know.

So I don't know the 18yr old you do, but I wouldn't worry too much about his bravado or boasting at this point. That kind of aggression and attitude can be a bit surprising but I think maybe it's required if real combat is something he seeks.

Our government puppets continue to stoke the war machine abroad for God knows what end. As long as that continues, brave young men will continue to fuel those engines with their blood. It's always been that way.

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 25, 2012 - 10:23pm PT
A substantial number of guys with the "git some" attitude go through a profound change when they experience a fight that yields gory death.

Not a guy I'd want on my six.



Saw this beauty. It is made for competition not combat (though in a pinch);

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=323444625
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Dec 25, 2012 - 10:59pm PT
Merry X-mas Coz...

No offense intended. I just feel very strongly about our brave men not being where they are currently deployed. Seems like such a waste of young souls to me.

But that's another thread....
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Dec 26, 2012 - 08:28am PT
Little boys like guns and blowing sh#t up. it's human nature. If a little but has no gun to play with he will pick up a rock or a hammer an smash sh#t with it. The little girl on the otherhand will more likly play with dolls.

We are one of the most the most fcked up species on the planet,,,
happiegrrrl

Trad climber
www.climbaddictdesigns.com
Dec 26, 2012 - 10:22am PT
Ih my nephew had been a kid like this over the years it wouldn't be of concern, but it is only over the last few months. His dad came back in July or so and I am guessing his son heard first-hand what he was seeing go on over there, or at least it was alluded to. But it was as he was readying to head back over that this weaponry stuff started.

I worry it is more about a young man and his absent father than playing Let's Blowing Sh#t Up.

climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Dec 26, 2012 - 11:00am PT
It's not unusual for young men to glorify military power and look to it as a solution for the things in the world that deeply bother them. Is it healthy? hmm.. compared to what? Being a young man is not exactly the healthiest state of being in the best cases. They drive too fast, climb with reckless abandon, party too much and all the rest of the things that go with being in your late teens to early 20s. None of it is fun to watch for the older family members who care about them.

Most of us survived it and didnt make unrecoverable mistakes.

He may indeed enlist. It may be exactly what he should do. While it is a risky job it can be a pretty decent way for a young man to grow up and learn about life. Most do survive even in wartime. Perhaps with less trouble than they would have had out unsupervised in the regular world. If part of it is trying to understand or be closer in some way to his dad, he will certainly understand a lot more from it.
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Dec 26, 2012 - 11:14am PT
Read a report the other day by a Phd that said 90 percent of mass shooters are on psychotropic drugs. I didn't see that link but here's a story about that story.

"A website called SSRI Stories has compiled a sortable database that lists over 4800 incidents of suicide, violent crimes and other incidents between 1988 and 2011, including school shootings that involve people that were prescribed SSRI medications. Here is a short list of a few more school shootings that involved SSRIs:

Steve Kazmierczak, age 27, inexplicably went on a shooting rampage on Feb. 15, 2008 in a Northern Illinois University Lecture Hall before taking his own life. He had been on Prozac, Xanax and Ambien, but had stopped taking Prozac a few weeks before the shootings. Toxicology reports showed traces of Xanax in his system. Five dead, 20 wounded.
Jeff Weise, age 16, had been prescribed 60 mg/day of Prozac (three times the average starting dose for adults) when he shot his grandfather, his grandfather’s girlfriend and many fellow students in Red Lake, Minnesota on March 24, 2005. He then shot himself. 10 dead, 12 wounded.
Cho-Seung-Hui, age 23, showed signs of anger before he went on a shooting rampage on the Virginia Tech campus that ended only after a police officer shot him dead. Officials said prescription medications related to the treatment of psychological problems had been found among Mr. Cho’s effects, but no details of his treatment or the medications have been released to the public. 33 dead, 17 wounded.
Michael Carneal (Ritalin), age 14, opened fire on students at a high school prayer meeting in West Paducah, Kentucky on Dec, 1, 1997. Three teenagers were killed, five others were wounded.

Violence involving SSRIs does not always involve firearms:

Jeff Franklin (Prozac and Ritalin), Huntsville, AL, killed his parents as they came home from work using a sledge hammer, hatchet, butcher knife and mechanic’s file, then attacked his younger brothers and sister.
Jarred Viktor, age 15, (Paxil). After five days on Paxil he stabbed his grandmother 61 times.
John Odgren, age 16, stabbed a 15-year-old student to death at Lincoln-Sudbury Regional High School in MA on Jan. 19, 2007. Odgren was being treated for Asperger's syndrome, a form of autism, as well as attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, depression and anxiety. The defense said changes in Odgren's clothing habits, as well as changes in his sleep and speech pattern, may have indicated a problem with his medication that could have lead to a manic, paranoid state.

The list of incidents like the above on SSRI stories is seemingly endless and all of the circumstances are different except for one – all of them involve a mentally ill patient on some sort of SSRI medication. ........"
locker

Social climber
state of Kumbaya...
Dec 26, 2012 - 11:25am PT


"I did not click on his link, because I left my childhood behind many decades ago"...


With your Motorcycles???...


LOL!!!...

We're ALL, just older KIDS...




EDITED:

and then of course, there's CLIMBING...

;-)

froodish

Social climber
Portland, Oregon
Dec 26, 2012 - 11:52am PT
What struck me the most was how 'cold' they were about fallen friends. "Sucks., but they knew what they were getting into"

How is that different than what you hear from any other humans that are around death frequently? The gallows humor among emergency room nurses/doctors, or even climbers for instance. It's a way of coping.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 26, 2012 - 11:54am PT
Well I already said guards in schools was a bad idea on many levels.
I'm a big Ron Paul fan.

But jghedge betrays his ignorance on the subject of collecting guns if he thinks non-operable firearms retain their value.
They might be antiquated but shooting them can be fun.
I even wrote a thread about a single action Sharps competition I was in last year.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Dec 26, 2012 - 11:57am PT
well thats fine Norton,, but why bag on those that do collect guns?



well, because after reading countless posts from people like you who offer NO solutions other than more guns, I guess I feel that I too have a right to offer my own opinions

and if it ruffles some feathers, well then so be it

edit: by the way, I also "collect guns" so I am not bagging on people who own guns


and Locker, I get your point that I like messing with my motorcycles

but surely you would agree that they are not the subject of discussion?
locker

Social climber
state of Kumbaya...
Dec 26, 2012 - 12:04pm PT

"and Locker, I get your point that I like messing with my motorcycles

but surely you would agree that they are not the subject of discussion?"
...



I'm certain that you know what I was getting at...

;-)
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Dec 26, 2012 - 12:05pm PT
There are 98,817 public schools in America, not counting Private ones.

There are 683,396 full time state, city, university and college, metropolitan and non-metropolitan county, and other law enforcement officers in the United States.

Think hiring another 100,000 cops would create a budget problem? Think you could save more than 20-30 lives a year (number of students gunned down) by spending over 10 billion dollars (conservatively) on new police

The NRA has a stupid problem (or actually, a beholden to the gun manufacturers problem)

peace

Karl
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Dec 26, 2012 - 12:24pm PT
Moral problem, certainly....but stupidity is still the best descriptive word to explain their behavior.
happiegrrrl

Trad climber
www.climbaddictdesigns.com
Dec 26, 2012 - 12:31pm PT
JHedge - About collectibles - As an example, I make hair accessories from vintage sewing buttons. My favorites are the ones which were designed in the advent of the industrial revolution, when artisans used the new electric tools to take their craft to a higher level, before the race to the cheapest began.

I pride, and use as a selling point, the fact that I do not alter the buttons to create the accessories, which most button crafters do. Altering them(cutting off shank, gluing to a backing) renders the button non-function in it's original purpose. It goes beyond diminishing their value as a collectible item, making them worthless except in the most rare of cases.

I would guess it is similar with guns.


About my nephew - Though I am still worried, I appreciate the perspective some of you guys have provided. I have decided that for now I will not say anything to my sister, unless she brings the topic up, and if she does, will refer her to those comments, which may help her as well. (Not saying that I think he is "AOkay, but that my fears have been put in another perspective).
locker

Social climber
state of Kumbaya...
Dec 26, 2012 - 12:32pm PT


"yeah, the fact that adults, like me, like playing with the same toys they did when they were much younger


some things you just never grow tired of"
...


Like GUNS for instance...

and now we're right back where we started...

LOL!!!...

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 26, 2012 - 12:50pm PT
I said for historical or display purposes, not for resale

LOL
It is so much fun to converse with knowledgeable individuals!
My mom was a guide at the Metropolitan Museum, owners of the most valuable firearms in history, the dueling pistols that were presented to Catherine The Great.
You ougtta give them a call and explain why they should render those beauties inoperable!
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 26, 2012 - 12:58pm PT
Anders, that argument works for everyone!
jstan

climber
Dec 26, 2012 - 01:03pm PT
Rule #1 in conflict is you must employ whatever tools are being used by your opponent. What armed security person would be willing to go up against a bushmaster with only a handgun? So the NRA's proposal can only result in school security personnel being armed with something like bushmasters and walking around in kevlar suits. We may expect the suggestion that only one guard is needed in a school will be immediately faulted. It is a low ball proposal that will be found inadequate immediately as a school with only one guard is sued.

Furthermore the proposal assumes at the outset that armed guards will solve the problem. That shooters will be dissuaded from choosing schools as the place to act out their terminal dramas. If it does not, we will have kids in the middle of firefights involving military hardware. That sounds more like a problem than a solution.

The following a blog by C.E. Gant an MD in Integrative and Functional Medicine

School Violence
The following are reports of teens committing acts of school violence during an 18 year period from 1988-2006 (footnote 3), beginning only one year after the first SSRI antidepressant was approved for the U.S. market for adult use only. More than half of the teens committing these acts were taking SSRI antidepressants.........
http://cegant.com/commentary/school-shootings-and-psychiatric-drugs

Whatever else we do, we need seriously to investigate to see what portion of the problem is pharmacological in origin.

monolith

climber
albany,ca
Dec 26, 2012 - 01:06pm PT
Tell that to Columbine who had an armed deputy sherriff who shot at the perps but did not prevent a massacre.
coppertone

Trad climber
CT
Dec 26, 2012 - 01:08pm PT
Join us and help us move the conversation and action forward. We can no longer sit idly by and allow this to happen to our children and all of the other innocent victims of gun violence. Take an active part. Call your local, state and federal representatives and let them know how you feel. We in Newtown are going to do everything we can to make meaningful changes in our country. We need everyones help and participation.

https://www.facebook.com/NewtownUnited

There will be a website very soon. If this country can't move forward toward meaningful change after this and the horrible gun violence since in Webster NY, Pensylvania and many other places then I fear that nothing will ever get done and we will continue down the road to NRA Armagedon where your doctor will be strapped in the delivery room when he is delivering your baby.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Dec 26, 2012 - 01:10pm PT
I'm a little surprised that those who have seen combat would glorify guns or violence. Most combat vets I know abhor war. Most of the WWII and Korean War vets who raised my contemporaries didn't even want to talk about it.

I think the NRA, whose "solution" to the problem of mass school shooting is, indeed stupid, blew it here. TO get to a real solution, start with reality. As I understand it, there are at least 200,000,000 operable firearms in private hands in this country. The issue isn't what would happen if we removed most of them, because that begs the questions of how we accomplish this. A more realistic question is: what will happen in both the short- and long-run if we enacted legislation, consistent with the Second Amendment, restricting their use? What would happen if we asked the same question, but included the possibility of amending the Second Amendment?

My own belief is that the history of Prohibition should make us wary of trying to rely on legislation restricting firearms ownership as a means of deterring gun violence. Certainly the violence in Mexico -- a country that restricts legal firearms ownership much more severely than does the United States -- doesn't give me cause for hope.

If I want to be even more dismal, I'm not sure I trust the bureaucrats who make governmental decisions to make good choices over who is and isn't fit to possess firearms.

My own bottom line remains that the sorts of large-scale restrictions on gun ownership proposed by anti-gun "nuts" would be, at best, ineffective and, at worst, counterproductive. We do need to strengthen the aid we give to those suffering from mental illness, and we also need to close loopholes that allow people to obtain firearms legally without some reasonable waiting period to allow for a background check.

Beyond that, we're fooling ourselves, and we're ignoring the reality that overall murder rates have declined precipitously in the last 20 years, at least. While it might help if we didn't spend weeks of headlines keeping these sorts of events front-and-center, I know of no empirical evidence that shows that it will deter others who want notoriety, and it won't happen anyway, given the First Amendment and the desire of the press to make money by selling the sensational.

Sorry, but I don't see a "big fix" here. We aren't going to become Europe, with much smaller amounts of firearms in private hands, by simple legislation. This county made that decision more that two centuries ago. We need to spend more time dealing with problems we can solve.

John
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 26, 2012 - 01:11pm PT
+100 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


jstan,

the motto at the Gunsite Training Facility is "any gun will do if YOU will do".

Your assessment is too simplistic and does not account for advantages like surveillance, surprise, superior knowledge of environment, etc.
There ARE some LEOs that don't run away crying about how the bad guy has a better gun.
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Dec 26, 2012 - 01:11pm PT
Rongo, Connecticut has a VERY LIMITED assault weapon ban. The Bushmaster he used is legal in Connecticut, but not in CA.

No limit on magazine capacity.

Not much of a ban.



Top weapon with the large clip is legal in Connecticut, bottom one is not, because copies of banned weapons are legal.

You call that a ban?
happiegrrrl

Trad climber
www.climbaddictdesigns.com
Dec 26, 2012 - 01:19pm PT
Perhaps whenever this thread spirals out of control you could bring us all back to earth with photos of various damsels in hair regalia?

Isn't that what the Boobs thread was for? And how well did that work????

Buuut.... my young nephew posted an image on his FB that would have done the Boobs thread proud just a few minutes ago, so maybe he is just a normal young man after all...

I did click through and the site suggested some other things I might be interested in. And one was a "PhotoShop Fail" page. I thought this one might go well calming down the testosterone-infused posting here.
Credit: happiegrrrl






hee hee heee - sorry, couldn't help myself.
jstan

climber
Dec 26, 2012 - 01:20pm PT
There ARE some LEOs that don't run away crying about how the bad guy has a better gun.

Ron that may well be. But I also don't see our marines in fire fights using single shot hand guns.

Edit:

Ron, my point is the discussion the two of us are having will become a hot topic at the first fire fight. And this thread shows pretty clearly how it will go.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 26, 2012 - 01:31pm PT
Kali cops don't walk around with ARs, but after North Hollywood (where LEOs returned fire with handguns against body armored drugged maniacs with full auto AKs and got the job DONE!) you can bet they carry them in their kit.

So what is your point jstan?
locker

Social climber
state of Kumbaya...
Dec 26, 2012 - 01:35pm PT

LOL!!!...

"When I take walks I carry it with me so I can kill a duck down by the river."...

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 26, 2012 - 01:42pm PT
I didn't quite catch that jghedge, how many gun related deaths by your count in the UK?
I think you need to repeat it.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 26, 2012 - 01:53pm PT
WARNING, SEVERE HYPOCRASY ALERT!

this just in from kennyt on the BD thread;
Perhaps we have over regulated ourselves to death
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Dec 26, 2012 - 01:54pm PT
Why are there any gun deaths in the UK, jghedge?

Thirty-five dead proves gun control failed, yet you stubbornly advocate for it.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Dec 26, 2012 - 02:04pm PT
35 gun related deaths in the UK last year proves you wrong, obviously

What is the greatest proportion of firearms in private hands in the UK ever, Joe? You miss my point completely, because you fail to state how we reduce the 200,000,000+ firearms in private hands. The Second Amendment right to keep and bear arms has no equivalent in the United Kingdom, nor in most of Europe. They never had the sorts of numbers of privately-owned firearms we do. About the only exception of which I'm aware is Switzerland which, to my recollection, has very high individual gun possession and very low firearms violence. In any case, we're starting in 21st Century America, not from a clean slate.

Your attempt at the anti-slavery analogy is even more strained and inappropriate. The 13th Amendment did not result in more slavery. In contrast, there is rather scant evidence that enactment of gun restriction legislation within the contemporary United States -- or any other society with a similar proliferation of gun ownership -- would result in lower gun violence. Indeed, the Mexican experience suggests otherwise.

John
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Dec 26, 2012 - 02:19pm PT
Working within constitutional, legal, and financial constraints, a reasonable solution might be something like the following:

1. Legalize marijuana and any similar 'soft' drugs, tax the crap out of it and the fools who use it, use that money for worthwhile purposes. May increase public respect for laws having some rational basis, plus undercuts gangs and others, reduces "crime" and prison costs.

2. Federal prohibition on importing and owning automatic, semi-automatic and assault weapons, and similar. Exceptions based on proven need. Buy back/permanent disabling program for existing weapons, with amnesty period.

3. Federal regulations controlling all manufacture, purchase, sale, and ownership of non-prohibited weapons, e.g. rifles, shotguns, handguns. Setting clear requirements, e.g. that all weapons be registered, safely stored (locks), purchasers go through waiting periods and background checks, and no consumer-consumer ('gun show') sales. Regulations clear, but largely state-administered, with BATF oversight to ensure fair play.

4. Immediate induction into the military of all those who want to own automatic, semi-automatic and assault weapons. Either that, or send them to re-education camps. (OK, I'm joking about this one. Sort of.)

5. Appropriate transitional measures, e.g. ensuring that the new laws are immediately challenged in the courts, and upheld by the supreme court, so finally putting to rest the more extreme fantasies about the second amendment. Even the most constitution-distorting version of "states' rights" and "strict constructionism" will allow reasonable regulation of firearms.

The result would be like the health care reforms that were upheld last summer. It'd take 5 - 10 years to fully implement, is really only a partial solution, but at least represents some progress.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 26, 2012 - 02:24pm PT
Although all it will really take is one group of armed insurrectionists, holed up in their compound, vs. one Apache helicopter, broadcast on the news, and the whole delusional, adolescent Gun Nut movement will start rapidly disintegrating

That must explain why our government hasn't rolled armor on civilians in the 2 decades since Waco,..
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Dec 26, 2012 - 02:26pm PT
jghedge writes:

"And of course it will take a while to get rid of all of them, but a lot of idiots like yourself will die in firefights trying to hold onto them, so we'll be ridding society of 2 problems at once"



You're suggesting the government conduct a shooting war vs it's own citizenry, and then you wonder why nobody is hopping aboard any of your asinine ideas.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Dec 26, 2012 - 02:27pm PT
Thanks for injecting some thought into the debate, Anders. I wonder, though, what the effect would be of the bans and controls you propose. I doubt that criminals who use illegal firearms would turn theirs in, but I think this proposal would likely lower the incidence of the sorts of attacks perpetrated at Sandy Hook, because the potential mass killers would need to work harder to get their weapons. The unanswered question is whether the full-time violent (as opposed to the one-time violent) would be more formidable with a less well-armed civilian population.

John
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Dec 26, 2012 - 02:37pm PT
And of course it will take a while to get rid of all of them, but a lot of idiots like yourself will die in firefights trying to hold onto them, so we'll be ridding society of 2 problems at once

Although all it will really take is one group of armed insurrectionists, holed up in their compound, vs. one Apache helicopter, broadcast on the news, and the whole delusional, adolescent Gun Nut movement will start rapidly disintegrating


Hedge, not to be rude but you seem to be the only one here who's obsessed with firearms and violence. Penises it would seem too.

And there you go again with what seem like disturbing wishes of fictional armed insurrectionists being slaughtered on TV. Are you on meds?

What you should try to realize, is that 99.999999% of legal gun owners/enthusiasts out there are responsible, sane, and not the least bit thinking about killing or harming anyone. The statistics prove that out. I know that's hard for you to accept.

Laws are at best a blunt instrument for herding the willing sheep. They have never, and will never, change the evil intent of men.
kennyt

climber
Woodfords,California
Dec 26, 2012 - 02:38pm PT
Joker Vilian,I'm afraid I can just see the difference between regulating assault rifles as compared to a business.Thanks'for your opinion. Oh don't worry the sores should clearup in a few days.
Credit: kennyt
EDIT: Correct spelling is Hypocrisy
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Dec 26, 2012 - 02:45pm PT
Well, JE, there does seem a need for more education. For example, that the rate of violent/firearm crime in the US (and Canada) has steadily and significantly dropped over the last 30 years - with exceptions, of course. There's no doubt about it, although there is debate as to the reasons. Also, beliefs that ownership of more/bigger weapons will actually protect a member of the general public, without significant, regular training and considerable luck. As pointed out elsewhere, the likelihood that even a trained, prepared person with a handgun is going to slow down let alone stop someone with an assault rifle is pretty small - if nothing else, an assault rifle is much more accurate at a distance.

You're probably right - it'd take longer for tighter laws to affect ownership by serious criminals of prohibited weapons, than for the public as a whole. (Not that career criminals usually indulge in mass murder of innocents...) Either way, they won't care, and in any case really only the police have the equipment and skills to take care of them. Serious criminals usually don't prey directly on the general public anyway.

If it simply reduces the number of repeated grotesque mass murders, that'd be a good start. You have to start somewhere.
eeyonkee

Trad climber
Golden, CO
Dec 26, 2012 - 02:52pm PT
Well said, MH.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Dec 26, 2012 - 03:15pm PT
jghedge writes:

"Wouldn't something have to be organized before it could be regulated?"


Who is to do the regulating?
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Dec 26, 2012 - 03:28pm PT
Parenting and family units have never never been more healthy or more strong.
All that stuff you wrote is delusion.

Two generations ago most fathers were spending their nights in the bar and beating their kids either verbally or physically.
What you write is not backed up by anecdotal or statistical data.
A bad dad is the exception these days and not the rule.

That's a surprising observation to me, Riley. What I've seen here in the poverty capital of California is that there are fewer dads around, period. I'd love to see statistics that show if or how the family unit has changed since, say, the end of World War II. I'm hoping you, or another reader, can point me to them.

Thanks.

john
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Dec 26, 2012 - 03:31pm PT
Riley,

Obviously there have always been violent people and that will never change. You need to seperate those people's violent tendencies from whatever tools they choose to harm people with. Such a person is a threat no matter what.

If firearms did indeed 'cause' people to become violent you'd be staring at a statistical vertical wall over the past few years. That hasn't happened, in fact, it's declined.

I agree that the recent crop of first-person shoot 'em ups can't be good for small kids and young adolescents. I didn't play these until my early 30's and was amazed at the level of detail and life-like graphics. Pretending to be sneaking up behind people and shooting them in the head or slicing their necks can't be a good thing for a developing mind. I could certainly see something like this contributing to future aggression and violence.

I still think the recent bumper crop of mass-random killings/stabbings/etc is the cusp of something very different. These are psychotic breaks where the killer generally kills themselves. We already have absolute proof that other drugs can cause such psychotic rage. There's no reason to suspect the possibility otherwise with the latest multi-billion dollar bumper crop of head 'medications'.

Why is it we've seen no lists of everything these killers was taking?

What's the first question you ask when someone gets on the highway going the wrong way and kills a bunch of people? "What brand of car was it? How big was his car?".

And the NRA does not speak for anyone but the NRA... their response was predictable, albeit stupid.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Dec 26, 2012 - 03:45pm PT
Top 10 myths about mass shootings



Even before the death toll in last Friday’s school massacre in Newtown, Conn., was determined, politicians, pundits, and professors of varied disciplines were all over the news, pushing their proposals for change. Some talked about the role of guns, others about mental-health services, and still more about the need for better security in schools and other public places. Whatever their agenda and the passion behind it, those advocates made certain explicit or implied assumptions about patterns in mass murder and the profile of the assailants. Unfortunately, those assumptions do not always align with the facts.


Myth: Mass shootings are on the rise.
Reality: Over the past three decades, there has been an average of 20 mass shootings a year in the United States, each with at least four victims killed by gunfire. Occasionally, and mostly by sheer coincidence, several episodes have been clustered closely in time. Over all, however, there has not been an upward trajectory. To the contrary, the real growth has been in the style and pervasiveness of news-media coverage, thanks in large part to technological advances in reporting.

Myth: Mass murderers snap and kill indiscriminately.
Reality: Mass murderers typically plan their assaults for days, weeks, or months. They are deliberate in preparing their missions and determined to follow through, no matter what impediments are placed in their path.

Myth: Enhanced background checks will keep dangerous weapons out of the hands of these madmen.
Reality: Most mass murderers do not have criminal records or a history of psychiatric hospitalization. They would not be disqualified from purchasing their weapons legally. Certainly, people cannot be denied their Second Amendment rights just because they look strange or act in an odd manner. Besides, mass killers could always find an alternative way of securing the needed weaponry, even if they had to steal from family members or friends.

Myth: Restoring the federal ban on assault weapons will prevent these horrible crimes.
Reality: The overwhelming majority of mass murderers use firearms that would not be restricted by an assault-weapons ban. In fact, semiautomatic handguns are far more prevalent in mass shootings. Of course, limiting the size of ammunition clips would at least force a gunman to pause to reload or switch weapons.

Myth: Greater attention and response to the telltale warning signs will allow us to identify would-be mass killers before they act.
Reality: While there are some common features in the profile of a mass murderer (depression, resentment, social isolation, tendency to blame others for their misfortunes, fascination with violence, and interest in weaponry), those characteristics are all fairly prevalent in the general population. Any attempt to predict would produce many false positives. Actually, the telltale warning signs come into clear focus only after the deadly deed.

Myth: Widening the availability of mental-health services and reducing the stigma associated with mental illness will allow unstable individuals to get the treatment they need.
Reality: With their tendency to externalize blame and see themselves as victims of mistreatment, mass murderers perceive the problem to be in others, not themselves. They would generally resist attempts to encourage them to seek help. And, besides, our constant references to mass murderers as “wackos” or “sickos” don’t do much to destigmatize the mentally ill.

Myth: Increasing security in schools and other places will deter mass murder.
Reality: Most security measures will serve only as a minor inconvenience for those who are dead set on mass murder. If anything, excessive security and a fortress-like environment serve as a constant reminder of danger and vulnerability.

Myth: Students need to be prepared for the worst by participating in lockdown drills.
Reality: Lockdown drills can be very traumatizing, especially for young children. Also, it is questionable whether they would recall those lessons amid the hysteria associated with an actual shooting. The faculty and staff need to be adequately trained, and the kids just advised to listen to instructions. Schools should take the same low-key approach to the unlikely event of a shooting as the airlines do to the unlikely event of a crash. Passengers aren’t drilled in evacuation procedures but can assume the crew is sufficiently trained.

Myth: Expanding “right to carry” provisions will deter mass killers or at least stop them in their tracks and reduce the body counts.
Reality: Mass killers are often described by surviving witnesses as being relaxed and calm during their rampages, owing to their level of planning. In contrast, the rest of us are taken by surprise and respond frantically. A sudden and wild shootout involving the assailant and citizens armed with concealed weapons would potentially catch countless innocent victims in the crossfire.

Myth: We just need to enforce existing gun laws as well as increase the threat of the death penalty.
Reality: Mass killers typically expect to die, usually by their own hand or else by first responders. Nothing in the way of prosecution or punishment would divert them from their missions. They are ready to leave their miserable existence, but want some payback first.


In the immediate aftermath of the Newtown school shootings, there seems to be great momentum to establish policies and procedures designed to make us all safer. Sensible gun laws, affordable mental-health care, and reasonable security measures are all worthwhile, and would enhance the well being of millions of Americans. They may do much to impact the level of violent crime that plagues our nation daily. We shouldn’t, however, expect such efforts to take a big bite out of crime in its most extreme form. Of course, a nibble or two from the prevalence of mass murder would be reason enough. And efforts to promote real change in our social policies would be a fitting legacy to the tragedy in Newtown.

http://boston.com/community/blogs/crime_punishment/2012/12/top_10_myths_about_mass_shooti.html
Note: A version of this blog post appeared in the Chronicle of Higher Education.
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Dec 26, 2012 - 04:43pm PT
Hire Ninja females this should work

Credit: lostinshanghai

But for 30 round magazines being banned what about these babies. What is stopping these from being used.

photo not found
Missing photo ID#280664

10b4me

Boulder climber
Somewhere on 395
Dec 26, 2012 - 04:46pm PT
Joe, do you suffer from OCD?
you need to remind us how much you "liked" Michael Reardon.

Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Dec 26, 2012 - 05:03pm PT
Aren't most schools with on-site security/police, and secured entrances and inspections, high schools, many of them in inner cities, where the main safety problem is students bringing in weapons?
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Dec 26, 2012 - 05:06pm PT
Norton, the section in your post doesnt indicate that crime in general has gone down where CCW laws are in effect. It only speaks of mass killings.

Ron, statistics are clear that violent crime has decreased since the early 90s EVERYWHERE. CCW or not, it's declined. Guns or not, it's declined. Can't pin that on CCW at all. Sorry.
locker

Social climber
state of Kumbaya...
Dec 26, 2012 - 05:15pm PT


I THINK this is correct...

"Aren't most schools with on-site security/police, and secured entrances and inspections, high schools, many of them in inner cities, where the main safety problem is students bringing in weapons?"...



TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Dec 26, 2012 - 05:26pm PT
With six out of a thousand of Junhinged's posts being climbing related and the last 280 gun related,I think we hve a replacement for Rox and wolves in the OCD department.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 26, 2012 - 05:31pm PT
Wow, managed to beat the blizzard back from St. George, where I scored another 75rd AK drum at the pawnshop.

Looks like everybody is still "vocalizing" and nobody listening.

I'm glad that Anders lives north of the border where some of the sheep are scared and the rest walk on 2 legs.
happiegrrrl

Trad climber
www.climbaddictdesigns.com
Dec 26, 2012 - 05:37pm PT
...statistics are clear that violent crime has decreased since the early 90s EVERYWHERE.

Crimpie- I recall it being in the news several years ago that the NYC police had been manipulating police reports to create stats which showed a favorable picture. A quick search brought this as top link: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/29/nyregion/new-york-police-department-manipulates-crime-reports-study-finds.html?_r=0

From your vantage point, do you feel this could be/have been a more widespread phenomenon(meaning a general practice in other precincts? Or do you feel it would be too difficult to manipulate reports which included firearms?
steveA

Trad climber
bedford,massachusetts
Dec 26, 2012 - 05:41pm PT
I was in a local gym today working out next to a county Sheriff.

We got on this subject and he mentioned that ALL the gun stores, he knew of in the area had sold out of just about any firearm except the 22 caliber variety.

Seems to be a run on guns. Hum?
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Dec 26, 2012 - 05:42pm PT
Crimpie- I recall it being in the news several years ago that the NYC police had been manipulating police reports to create stats which showed a favorable picture.

In a similar vein, LA City fire just got caught manipulating response time data a few months ago.

It probably happens a lot more often with govt stats of all sorts than anyone would suspect.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 26, 2012 - 05:48pm PT
Steve I think he meant box feed semi autos.

Plenty of riot guns and levers and bolts not moving.
But the .22s are selling and there is very little .22 ammo to be found anywhere (except my basement).
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Dec 26, 2012 - 05:48pm PT
It probably happens a lot more often with govt stats of all sorts than anyone would suspect.

You mean like with the unemployment #'s??

Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Dec 26, 2012 - 05:53pm PT
Crimpie, are there not states or cities, counties etc that saw a noticeable reduction in crime just after enacting CCW laws.?

Ron: A difficulty in research is determining what came first - the law or the crime rate. How long a lag will it take for a law to work? That is the real problem. For any study that says CCW mattered, there is a study that shows that crime was going down before CCW was implemented. It's not easy to study. And even if you showed that CCW mattered, how to explain all the other places that did not implement that law and their crime fell too?

Crime has plummeted since the early 90s (with the exception of the last year when it went up again). That is all over. That is a fact.

And how Ron, could one explain the increase in crime the last year - I don't think CCW laws have been going away have they?

Happie - one could manipulate data for sure and it has happened. This is one of the reasons that we have multiple sources of data. One, the NCVS, is not subject to manipulation by police since the data do not come from police. The NCVS and FBI data both show that crime has plummeted except for the last year.

When police manipulate the numbers, they tend to get caught. There are people out there who make a living working with these data. Some funny movement in the data will get very close examination. And this has resulted in places getting busted doing just that. While it can happen, and it has happened, it would have to be widespread - really widespread - to change things a lot.
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Dec 26, 2012 - 05:55pm PT
Let's see 30 round magazines banned but can use these to create two 20's so you get 40 rounds to shoot.

photo not found
Missing photo ID#280674



Those that still have 30 round clips can shoot 60.

Keeps going and going with no end in sight.

Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Dec 26, 2012 - 05:56pm PT
http://www.uwplatt.edu/~wiegmake/Intro_Files/CJ%20-%20paper%20example.pdf


federal level study^^^^^^^^^^

Ron - the link takes me to a 7 page student's research paper. That does not count as a study.


edit: their references:

Cleary, J. & Shapiro, E. (1999). The Effects of “Shall-Issue” Concealed-Carry Licensing Laws: A Literature Review. Information Brief - Minnesota House of Representatives Research Department. Retrieved from http://www.house.leg.state.mn.us/hrd/pubs/concarry.pdf.


Donohue, J., & Ayres, I. (2003). Shooting Down the More Guns, Less Crime Hypothesis. UC Berkeley: Center for the Study of Law and Society Jurisprudence and Social Policy Program. Retrieved from http://www.escholarship.org/uc/item/6v35j6tp.

Kovandzic, T., Marvell, T., & Vieraitis, L. (2005). The Impact of "Shall-Issue" Concealed Handgun Laws on Violent Crime Rates: Evidence From Panel Data for Large Urban Cities. Homicide Studies, 9(4), 292-323. doi:10.1177/1088767905279972. Retrieved from http://hsx.sagepub.com/cgi/reprint/9/4/292.

National Rifle Association of America, Institute for Legislative Action. (2009). [Map illustration of Right to Carry Laws in the United States]. Right to Carry Laws. Retrieved from http://www.nraila.org/images/rtcmaplg.jpg.

Rosengart, M., Cummings, P., Nathens, A., Heagerty, P., Maier, R., and
Rivara, F. (2005). An evaluation of state firearm regulations and homicide and suicide death rates. Injury Prevention 2005;11:77–83. doi: 10.1136/ip.2004.007062. Retrieved from
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1730198/pdf/v011p00077.pdf/?tool=pmcentrez
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Dec 26, 2012 - 06:00pm PT
I just copy/pasted the references from that paper. One is a reference shooting down 'more guns less crime'. One is referencing where they got the map from. One is from Homicide studies about large urban areas (will look at it in a second).

The fact is that there is no consensus among people who study this that CCW made crime fall. None.

Does it matter though? Does it change how you feel about CCW? Doubt it and doubt others carry or not because they are being guided by empirical research.
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Dec 26, 2012 - 06:01pm PT
From the last source cited in that paper (Rosengart, M., Cummings, P., Nathens, A., Heagerty, P., Maier, R., and Rivara, F. (2005). An evaluation of state firearm regulations and homicide and suicide death rates. Injury Prevention 2005;11:77–83. doi: 10.1136/ip.2004.007062. Retrieved from
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1730198/pdf/v011p00077.pdf/?tool=pmcentrez);:

Objective: To determine if any of five different state gun laws were associated with firearm mortality: (1) ‘‘shall issue’’ laws permitting an individual to carry a concealed weapon unless restricted by another statute; (2) a minimum age of 21 years for handgun purchase; (3) a minimum age of 21 years for private handgun possession; (4) one gun a month laws which restrict handgun purchase frequency; and (5) junk gun laws which ban the sale of certain cheaply constructed handguns.

Design: A cross sectional time series study of firearm mortality from 1979 to 1998.
Setting: All 50 states and the District of Columbia.

Subjects: All residents of the United States. Main outcome measures: Firearm homicides, all homicides, firearm suicides, and all suicides.
Results: When a ‘‘shall issue’’ law was present, the rate of firearm homicides was greater, RR 1.11 (95% confidence interval 0.99 to 1.24), than when the law was not present, as was the rate of all homicides, RR
1.08 (95% CI 0.98 to 1.17), although this was not statistically significant. **No law was associated with a
statistically significant decrease in the rates of firearm homicides or total homicides. No law was associated with a statistically significant change in firearm suicide rates.**

Conclusion: A ‘‘shall issue’’ law that eliminates most restrictions on carrying a concealed weapon may be associated with increased firearm homicide rates. No law was associated with a statistically significant
reduction in firearm homicide or suicide rate.
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Dec 26, 2012 - 06:04pm PT
from the Homicide Studies piece - the abstract:

What happens when states ease access to permits to carry concealed handguns in public
places? Supporters maintain the laws can reduce violent crime rates by raising the
expected costs of crime, because of criminals anticipating greater risks of injury and lower
rates of success completing their crimes. Opponents argue that the laws are likely to
increase violent crime, especially homicide, as heated disputes involving permit holders
are more likely to turn deadly because of the greater lethality of firearms. This study uses
panel data for all U.S. cities with a 1990 population of at least 100,000 for 1980 to 2000 to
examine the impact of “shall-issue” concealed handgun laws on violent crime rates. The
authors measure the effects of the laws using a time-trend variable for the number of years
after the law has been in effect, as opposed to the dummy variable approach used in prior
research. They also address many of the methodological problems encountered in previous
studies. **The results provide no evidence that the laws reduce or increase rates of violent
crime.**
Ricky

climber
Sometimes LA
Dec 26, 2012 - 06:11pm PT
I have my own study, from my circle of close friends,, and a CCW has definitely reduced crime by 30% via per capita ratios.

You're a blithering idiot.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 26, 2012 - 06:15pm PT
No need to "roll armor", anyway - all it'll take is one armed compound against one Apache

Yeah, why use rolling armor when you can use something more expensive and more vulnerable?
But then you would expect jgjudge to use the wrong tool for the job if he thinks sporting arms make good self defense weapons.
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Dec 26, 2012 - 06:15pm PT
I was just working off the paper you cited Ron. Happy to see other cites of research that found differently.

many if not all with an agenda,

That is absolutely true of unethical researchers. But it is not true of most researchers as they are ethical. So when people say this, they are painting researchers with the insult of being unethical. In my own case, I can assure you the only agenda I have is to try to find the truth.
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Dec 26, 2012 - 06:17pm PT
Ron - the personal life study is your own life right? I was going back looking for that cite since I'd missed it. But I think I see what you are saying now.

:)
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Dec 26, 2012 - 06:23pm PT
Cracked me up Ron. I seriously was looking for it! Haha.

BTW, you will also see that the research you posted did not find that CCW increased crime as some argue. No effect.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 26, 2012 - 06:27pm PT
Unless I deploy my home made stingers.

I have the plans already, fin servos connected to infra red sensors, homemade C4 shaped charge warhead.
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Dec 26, 2012 - 06:36pm PT
Research isn't really looked at that way. Number 1 - we cannot "prove" anything. We can only offer support, or fail to find support for stuff. Number 2 - no study is perfect. No data are perfect, no measurement is perfect, no definition is perfect. But, some are less perfect than others.

So researchers work very hard to devise the best definitions they can. They strive to measure very difficult to measure things as precisely as possible. And the toil to gather the best data they can.

Then they see what the results are and they interpret the results with an eye to the limitations of the study (all studies have limitations).

And others replicate the research and try to make improvements to it. Over time a body of research is amassed. Now if that body of research indicates that x appears to be the case, one can have some confidence it likely is the case.

If a body of research offers lots of conflicting findings, then no general consensus is reached.

Given the body of research, I'd say (and most agree) that CCWs have no effect on crime rates. Still, that's not to say that CCWs are bad or should be taken away. It's just that in general, research does not offer evidence that they lower the crime rate. They may do other things well. But that is for research to explore.
jstan

climber
Dec 26, 2012 - 06:37pm PT
Unless I deploy my home made stingers.

Stingers are ineffective against vehicles armored with depleted uranium.
Entirely new weapons are used there. So to be sure of stopping intruders shielded behind DU,
you will need to upgrade.

And even there you will want to wait for Gen. III.
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Dec 26, 2012 - 06:46pm PT
Not exactly sure what you'd like to study. But if you posed a good research question, and there are data available (always a big if), I imagine there is research on it already. So seriously, if you can tell me what it is you are interested in, I'll put some article for you.

What about CCW holders would you want to learn?

Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Dec 26, 2012 - 07:10pm PT
Crimpie,,,How about how many have been directly involved in crime reduction - via self defense, defense of others, robbery attempts etc etc.

While I don't recall if they looked at CCW specifically, this is likely embedded in the Defensive Gun Use (DGU) literature. Very contentious literature with little agreement. I posted up thread (or maybe it was the other thread) about the inherent difficulties with this research. A lot of it centers around what constitutes DGU.

For example, does a case of DGU require a gun be fired?
or does it require someone it shot? and does that someone have to be a bad guy vs. a friend or relative mistakenly shot.
Does DGU count if you just tell someone to leave you alone or you'll shoot them?

Does it count if a police officers does it while working? Or a security guard? Or must it be a private citizen?

My dad for example will tell you that he engaged in DGU about 25 times a year. He keeps hearing noises outside, grabs his gun, and rushes out to confront the noise maker. He lives in a very rural area on 20 acres. To date, he's never seen a person during one of these events. But to him these are instances of DGU.

Was Zimmerman engaged in DGU? He followed someone he thought looked suspicious. He shot him and killed him. DGU or murder? Or both?

And what about CCW? How to define it. In Florida, some pepper spray requires a CCW permit. Must CCW be restricted only to gun? Or just handguns? Or any weapon?

The answer to those definitional issues will guide the counting of CCW DGU and influence findings.

My hunch is that the data used for the DGU research does not have CCW information in it. For instance, the NCVS is used for this research. I know there is no question asked about whether the person has a CCW. I know the FBI does not include that in their crime numbers. It would be up to some individual, on their own dime (the notion that researchers just get buckets of money to conduct research is pure fantasy) to gather these data. It would take years and be REALLY expensive. And then everyone would criticize it saying that no one would reveal if they really had a CCW or engaged in DGU anyway.

While it is possible to do this research, it would be very very costly. Anyone want to front me about 30 million to do this? I'm serious - fund me and I'll get the project done.

Let's pretend I conduct this study and I find that CCW lowered crime. What would your policy recommendation be? Would you then mandate that all people must carry?

And let's pretend I find that CCW raised crime. What policy recommendation would you propose? To get rid of CCW?

Who do you think would be a good funding agent for this work? Not the federal or state govts - they don't have the resources. It would need to be a private person or group. Who do you suggest?

Genuinely curious of your thoughts about this.

Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Dec 26, 2012 - 07:12pm PT
And to be clear...I'm enjoying this with Ron and I hope he is too. He taught me a lot on his taxidermy thread. I find this topic fascinating and much more complex that what first meets the eye - just like taxidermy.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 26, 2012 - 07:12pm PT
Anti gunners want to confiscate valuable property.

If they had the guts to put their money where their mouthes are they would simply buy guns off the market and destroy them rather than trying to make the current owners pay for their vision of utopia.
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Dec 26, 2012 - 07:21pm PT
Here is one of the cases of defensive gun use that some say the media never presents. Personally, I see a lot of them.This is in the Houston Chronicle tonight:

ABILENE, Texas (AP) — Abilene police say a 34-year-old man has been shot and killed by his estranged girlfriend after he barged into her home.

Police found Earnest Gonzales wounded early Wednesday in the front yard of the woman's home. He died later at a hospital.

Authorities say Gonzales tried to break in Christmas night but fled. He returned hours later, forced open the door and assaulted the woman. She managed to retrieve a handgun and fired once, hitting him in the left side. The woman's two children — 16-year-old and a newborn — were in the home at the time.

Police say the woman had legal possession of the handgun and the case would be referred to a grand jury. They also say no criminal charges are expected.
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Dec 26, 2012 - 07:31pm PT
Crimpie,, you mention variables i hadnt considered. Very interesting on how complex things get.

Research is fun. Even what appears to be 'easy' research can be very challenging.

By the way, I added a statement above - does DGU count if it is an officer or security guard doing it? Or must it be a 'private citizen' (and is an off duty officer a private citizen?

Isn't measurement fun!?!?!

Some do get private money to fund studies, but they are pretty uncommon sadly. Research money dried up years ago and while there has been a tiny bit of easing lately, it's still difficult. I don't even bother crafting a grant proposal. They take a ton of time and work and most don't get funded. Not an efficient use of time sadly.

As far as studies getting refuted - that's good! The idea is for people to look for the limitations (remember, there are always limitations) and to then make the next study better. So that's an example of science working.

But in NV, a ccw holder SHOULD be letting any officer in any situation know that he is indeed one, and MOST officers i know certainly ask that and it is required by law the ccw holder give them a copy of their permit. So there should be some form of stats on this- in reports at minimum no?

I have never seen on a police report or data where one records that the person is CCW. However, police reports come in all sorts of sizes and shapes. I do know they don't report it to the FBI if they have these data. Further, there is a lot of variation in what goes in a police report. For example, a friend of mine who was kidnapped, raped, then had her throat cut managed to live. Total miracle. (no she didn't have a gun and having one wouldn't have mattered as she was 8 at the time of these crimes). The offender told her not to worry because he was a police officer.

That is a crime of police impersonation. That did not get recorded in the police report. Makes one wonder what else isn't recorded!
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Dec 26, 2012 - 07:34pm PT
Anti gunners want to confiscate valuable property.

Gun nuts confiscate valuable property - lives.

As for 'experts' and 'professionals' - well, real professions have and use mechanisms to protect the public, such as high entry standards, compulsory, continuing education, and (most importantly) discipline if not dismissal for unprofessional conduct or incompetence. All carried on in public.
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Dec 26, 2012 - 07:37pm PT
edit: Crimpie,, there was some coverage of that Oregon Mall shooting that didnt even mention the CCW holder having a gun trained on the shooter. My Bro in AZ DIDNT get that detail on his coverage. I gave him the U tube interview of the guy..

I don't know why some don't report some stuff. I saw this in several places personally. But I also look at a ton of news web sites. What most also didn't report is the nut was firing in the air. Still, that a CCW guy was there is something I saw reported in several places.

You have to wonder how that would have turned out if Mr. Nut wasn't just shooting in the air but was shooting at people instead. Happily, we'll not know.
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Dec 26, 2012 - 07:43pm PT
...This is how adults converse and debate in online political forums.

...And of course it will take a while to get rid of all of them, but a lot of idiots like yourself will die in firefights trying to hold onto them, so we'll be ridding society of 2 problems at once

Although all it will really take is one group of armed insurrectionists, holed up in their compound, vs. one Apache helicopter, broadcast on the news, and the whole delusional, adolescent Gun Nut movement will start rapidly disintegrating

Looking forward to that very much!!!

Apaches can fire 600 rounds a minute from 2 miles away with pinpoint accuracy, according to the pilot in this History Channel documentary

And Hellfire missiles from 5 miles away - again, pinpoint accuracy

Can't wait for the inevitable "armed compound vs Apache" footage on the news

The gun industry will collapse overnight

Take a good look at that documentary - seems like it'll be a pretty good preview of the last thing you'll ever see

Hedge, posting that you are looking forward to a scenario where American citizens with small arms are slaughtered by gunships of the American military is bizarre. The fact that you seem to be gleefully excited by contemplating such an event is scary. You are without a doubt someone who should not have access to a firearm.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 26, 2012 - 07:44pm PT
"Gun nuts confiscate valuable property - lives."



Hyperbole as usual.

All gun owners???
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Dec 26, 2012 - 07:54pm PT
First it's gangs rampaging on the streets, next it's bad guys deep in the woods. Make up your mind, will you? Bearing in mind that the incidence of assault or murder more than a few hours from a road or habitation is probably just about 0, and that you're at far greater risk from lightning, incompetence, poor preparations and equipment, and even some wildlife. (But not wolves or bears.)
happiegrrrl

Trad climber
www.climbaddictdesigns.com
Dec 26, 2012 - 08:02pm PT
"Gun nuts confiscate valuable property - lives."

To which you responded:
Hyperbole as usual.

All gun owners???


But..... you originally posted:
Anti gunners want to confiscate valuable property.

All anti gunners, Ron???


Also - a gun owner need not be a gut nutter." And then there are gun nuts(people who like/collect guns) and gun NUTS!


The guy who was arrested firing shots into the water at Split Rock would not have been considered in any way to be a problem gun owner - until he took the action he did(firing a semi-automatic handgun into the rock ravine stream, and not noticing there was a person, a 5 year old actually, walking behind him at the time).

That guy had a CC permit,and even brandished it when I insisted he show ID, as if that made his action okay.

Turned out, he was a war vet(probably Viet Nam from his age) with an honorable discharge, and no prior arrests.

That guy was, I am pretty sure...a Gun Nutter!
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 26, 2012 - 08:04pm PT
Yer right Terri.
I should have said "Some".
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Dec 26, 2012 - 08:10pm PT
The great expert at killing said:

And Norton,, I was referencing the fact that i shot HUNDREDS of horses in 76/77 and became quite exact for the animals sake.. Bruce was talking about animals. thats all u need to know.


Ron, I don't give a damn how many horses you have killed.

Don't you understand that only a third grader would be impressed?

And don't decide for me "thats all u need to know"

I will decide, not the likes of you, what I need to know.

And you did not answer my question:

Have you ever killed anyone with a handgun?
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Dec 26, 2012 - 08:12pm PT
wonder why the FBI doesn't tally such a thing?

They don't tally it because it doesn't help in the purpose for which those data are collected. The FBI collects crime data for law enforcement purposes. If crime is going up or down, law enforcement can try to respond. If murders go up, they try to do things to respond.

But knowing if folks are CCW doesn't help them. In fact, I think CCW folks would be freaked if the FBI decided to collect it.
froodish

Social climber
Portland, Oregon
Dec 26, 2012 - 08:13pm PT
where LEOs returned fire with handguns against body armored drugged maniacs with full auto AKs and got the job DONE!

They didn't get the job done with their service handguns or shotguns - those proved completely ineffective. What got the job done was a combination of SWAT arriving and some officers commandeering higher power kit from a local gun store. A friend of mine was actually working at that gun store that day. The way he tells the tale, the store employees loaded the officers up with all the high power kit they had. I think he still carries the "get out of jail free" card they gifted him with when they later returned the arms.
kennyt

climber
Woodfords,California
Dec 26, 2012 - 08:13pm PT
Hey Joker, Just wanted to take the oppurtunity to tell you to f*#k off.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 26, 2012 - 08:14pm PT
I'm a climbing guide, but I waited more than 30 seconds.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 26, 2012 - 08:22pm PT
On the BD thread kennyt said;
Perhaps we have over regulated ourselves to death

and I called him a hypocrite.

His eloquent counter;
Hey Joker, Just wanted to take the oppurtunity to tell you to f*#k off


Impressive.
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Dec 26, 2012 - 08:26pm PT
Warning to Americans....and then they took the guns.....

Kitty Werthmann survived Hitler.

“What I am about to tell you is something you’ve probably never heard or read in history books,” she likes to tell audiences.

“I am a witness to history.

“I cannot tell you that Hitler took Austria by tanks and guns; it would distort history.

Adolph Hitler

“We voted him in.”

If you remember the plot of the Sound of Music, the Von Trapp family escaped over the Alps rather than submit to the Nazis. Kitty wasn’t so lucky. Her family chose to stay in her native Austria. She was 10 years old, but bright and aware. And she was watching.

“We elected him by a landslide – 98 percent of the vote,” she recalls.

She wasn’t old enough to vote in 1938 – approaching her 11th birthday. But she remembers.

“Everyone thinks that Hitler just rolled in with his tanks and took Austria by force.”

No so.


“In 1938, Austria was in deep Depression. Nearly one-third of our workforce was unemployed. We had 25 percent inflation and 25 percent bank loan interest rates.

Farmers and business people were declaring bankruptcy daily. Young people were going from house to house begging for food. Not that they didn’t want to work; there simply weren’t any jobs.

“My mother was a Christian woman and believed in helping people in need. Every day we cooked a big kettle of soup and baked bread to feed those poor, hungry people – about 30 daily.’

“We looked to our neighbor on the north, Germany, where Hitler had been in power since 1933.” she recalls. “We had been told that they didn’t have unemployment or crime, and they had a high standard of living.


“Nothing was ever said about persecution of any group – Jewish or otherwise. We were led to believe that everyone in Germany was happy. We wanted the same way of life in Austria. We were promised that a vote for Hitler would mean the end of unemployment and help for the family. Hitler also said that businesses would be assisted, and farmers would get their farms back.

“Ninety-eight percent of the population voted to annex Austria to Germany and have Hitler for our ruler.

“We were overjoyed,” remembers Kitty, “and for three days we danced in the streets and had candlelight parades. The new government opened up big field kitchens and everyone was fed.


“After the election, German officials were appointed, and like a miracle, we suddenly had law and order. Three or four weeks later, everyone was employed. The government made sure that a lot of work was created through the Public Work Service.

“Hitler decided we should have equal rights for women. Before this, it was a custom that married Austrian women did not work outside the home. An able-bodied husband would be looked down on if he couldn’t support his family. Many women in the teaching profession were elated that they could retain the jobs they previously had been required to give up for marriage.

“Then we lost religious education for kids


“Our education was nationalized. I attended a very good public school.. The population was predominantly Catholic, so we had religion in our schools. The day we elected Hitler (March 13, 1938), I walked into my schoolroom to find the crucifix replaced by Hitler’s picture hanging next to a Nazi flag. Our teacher, a very devout woman, stood up and told the class we wouldn’t pray or have religion anymore. Instead, we sang ‘Deutschland, Deutschland, Uber Alles,’ and had physical education.

“Sunday became National Youth Day with compulsory attendance. Parents were not pleased about the sudden change in curriculum. They were told that if they did not send us, they would receive a stiff letter of warning the first time. The second time they would be fined the equivalent of $300, and the third time they would be subject to jail.”

And then things got worse.

“The first two hours consisted of political indoctrination. The rest of the day we had sports. As time went along, we loved it. Oh, we had so much fun and got our sports equipment free.

“We would go home and gleefully tell our parents about the wonderful time we had.

“My mother was very unhappy,” remembers Kitty. “When the next term started, she took me out of public school and put me in a convent. I told her she couldn’t do that and she told me that someday when I grew up, I would be grateful. There was a very good curriculum, but hardly any fun – no sports, and no political indoctrination.

“I hated it at first but felt I could tolerate it. Every once in a while, on holidays, I went home. I would go back to my old friends and ask what was going on and what they were doing.


“Their loose lifestyle was very alarming to me. They lived without religion. By that time, unwed mothers were glorified for having a baby for Hitler.

“It seemed strange to me that our society changed so suddenly. As time went along, I realized what a great deed my mother did so that I wasn’t exposed to that kind of humanistic philosophy.

“Then food rationing began

“In 1939, the war started and a food bank was established. All food was rationed and could only be purchased using food stamps. At the same time, a full-employment law was passed which meant if you didn’t work, you didn’t get a ration card, and if you didn’t have a card, you starved to death.

“Women who stayed home to raise their families didn’t have any marketable skills and often had to take jobs more suited for men.

“Soon after this, the draft was implemented.


“It was compulsory for young people, male and female, to give one year to the labor corps,” remembers Kitty. “During the day, the girls worked on the farms, and at night they returned to their barracks for military training just like the boys.

“They were trained to be anti-aircraft gunners and participated in the signal corps. After the labor corps, they were not discharged but were used in the front lines.

“When I go back to Austria to visit my family and friends, most of these women are emotional cripples because they just were not equipped to handle the horrors of combat.

“Three months before I turned 18, I was severely injured in an air raid attack. I nearly had a leg amputated, so I was spared having to go into the labor corps and into military service.

“When the mothers had to go out into the work force, the government immediately established child care centers.

“You could take your children ages four weeks old to school age and leave them there around-the-clock, seven days a week, under the total care of the government.

“The state raised a whole generation of children. There were no motherly women to take care of the children, just people highly trained in child psychology. By this time, no one talked about equal rights. We knew we had been had.

“Before Hitler, we had very good medical care. Many American doctors trained at the University of Vienna..

“After Hitler, health care was socialized, free for everyone. Doctors were salaried by the government. The problem was, since it was free, the people were going to the doctors for everything.

“When the good doctor arrived at his office at 8 a.m., 40 people were already waiting and, at the same time, the hospitals were full.

“If you needed elective surgery, you had to wait a year or two for your turn. There was no money for research as it was poured into socialized medicine. Research at the medical schools literally stopped, so the best doctors left Austria and emigrated to other countries.

“As for healthcare, our tax rates went up to 80 percent of our income. Newlyweds immediately received a $1,000 loan from the government to establish a household. We had big programs for families.

“All day care and education were free. High schools were taken over by the government and college tuition was subsidized. Everyone was entitled to free handouts, such as food stamps, clothing, and housing.

“We had another agency designed to monitor business. My brother-in-law owned a restaurant that had square tables.

“ Government officials told him he had to replace them with round tables because people might bump themselves on the corners. Then they said he had to have additional bathroom facilities. It was just a small dairy business with a snack bar. He couldn’t meet all the demands.

“Soon, he went out of business. If the government owned the large businesses and not many small ones existed, it could be in control.

“We had consumer protection, too

“We were told how to shop and what to buy. Free enterprise was essentially abolished. We had a planning agency specially designed for farmers. The agents would go to the farms, count the live-stock, and then tell the farmers what to produce, and how to produce it.

“In 1944, I was a student teacher in a small village in the Alps. The villagers were surrounded by mountain passes which, in the winter, were closed off with snow, causing people to be isolated.

“So people intermarried and offspring were sometimes retarded. When I arrived, I was told there were 15 mentally retarded adults, but they were all useful and did good manual work.

“I knew one, named Vincent, very well. He was a janitor of the school. One day I looked out the window and saw Vincent and others getting into a van.

“I asked my superior where they were going. She said to an institution where the State Health Department would teach them a trade, and to read and write. The families were required to sign papers with a little clause that they could not visit for 6 months.

“They were told visits would interfere with the program and might cause homesickness.

“As time passed, letters started to dribble back saying these people died a natural, merciful death. The villagers were not fooled. We suspected what was happening. Those people left in excellent physical health and all died within 6 months. We called this euthanasia.

“Then they took our guns

“Next came gun registration. People were getting injured by guns. Hitler said that the real way to catch criminals (we still had a few) was by matching serial numbers on guns. Most citizens were law abiding and dutifully marched to the police station to register their firearms. Not long afterwards, the police said that it was best for everyone to turn in their guns. The authorities already knew who had them, so it was futile not to comply voluntarily.


“No more freedom of speech. Anyone who said something against the government was taken away. We knew many people who were arrested, not only Jews, but also priests and ministers who spoke up.

“Totalitarianism didn’t come quickly, it took 5 years from 1938 until 1943, to realize full dictatorship in Austria. Had it happened overnight, my countrymen would have fought to the last breath. Instead, we had creeping gradualism. Now, our only weapons were broom handles. The whole idea sounds almost unbelievable that the state, little by little eroded our freedom.”

“This is my eye-witness account.

“It’s true. Those of us who sailed past the Statue of Liberty came to a country of unbelievable freedom and opportunity.

“America is truly is the greatest country in the world.

“Don’t let freedom slip away.

“After America, there is no place to go.”
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 26, 2012 - 08:26pm PT
Silly me, I thought B Kay didn't count because he's a gym climber.
kennyt

climber
Woodfords,California
Dec 26, 2012 - 08:33pm PT
Joker, So if I think we over regulate business and under regulate assault weapons that makes me a hypocrite? It takes months to get a contractors license in nevada so I can legally work in that state and hours ( if that) to get an assault rifle you think that is not effed up?

"My eloquent counter" was five or six pages back

Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Dec 26, 2012 - 08:45pm PT
Not even Goodwin's law can end this thread.

Spittled on the computer screen. Thanks for the laugh!
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Dec 26, 2012 - 08:55pm PT
Deny that you and many of your ideological soul mates justify owning arsenals as "protection" against what you term "intrusive gov't"

Bottom line for me Joe, I trust you more than I trust politicians. The founders believed that power could be enforced via weapons, and they wanted to ensure that the check and balance would stay with citizens. The 2nd amendment is the root of the other amendments and power. So as weird as you sound on this thread, I'd trust you with weapons, and all thouse I know and love: more than only the government.

That's my take.

regards to all
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Dec 26, 2012 - 08:59pm PT
The founders believed that power could be enforced via weapons, and they wanted to ensure that the check and balance would stay with citizens.

Oh really? They didn't trust governments, but they didn't trust the people either. They were only too quick to put down rebellions with state force, such as Shay's Rebellion: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shays'_Rebellion
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Dec 26, 2012 - 09:01pm PT
Hedge, the thinking on this subject by all the gun owners I know is quite a bit more nuanced than the troglidite caricature you are putting forth.

So KSolem

Why is not only fantasizing about killing cops and federal agents, but owning the arsenal to do so, OK

But explaining what will end up happening not OK?

Who is fantasizing about killing anyone? Certainly not me. But you are, and you want your government to do it for you.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Dec 26, 2012 - 09:03pm PT
Why is not only fantasizing about killing cops and federal agents, but owning the arsenal to do so, OK

Hedge, if you're a troll... I salute you. T7+ at least.
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Dec 26, 2012 - 09:08pm PT
MH, Shays rebellion was put down by groups of citizen militias with their own arms, organized for the purpose by the Governor of Massachusetts. There was no standing army or the money to raise one...
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Dec 26, 2012 - 09:15pm PT
That's a logical conclusion?

I'm not following your logic.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Dec 26, 2012 - 09:19pm PT
Why would the cops come for my guns?

You've built your whole arguement on a foundation of sh#t. No wonder it's collapsed around you.
Gary

Social climber
Right outside of Delacroix
Dec 26, 2012 - 09:19pm PT
They didn't get the job done with their service handguns or shotguns - those proved completely ineffective. What got the job done was a combination of SWAT arriving and some officers commandeering higher power kit from a local gun store. A friend of mine was actually working at that gun store that day. The way he tells the tale, the store employees loaded the officers up with all the high power kit they had. I think he still carries the "get out of jail free" card they gifted him with when they later returned the arms.

The real point here, is that the actions of the NRA and the politicians who do their bidding result in the proliferation of these weapons and their availability to criminals. This was brought home pointedly by the North Hollywood bank robbery.

Is it any wonder that the police overreact and escalate the most mundane situation nowadays?

And many of the same people who support unfettered access to weapons of any sort are the same who use the escalation of force by the police as a justification for their need of high powered weaponry.

So it goes.
kennyt

climber
Woodfords,California
Dec 26, 2012 - 09:24pm PT
Impressive.
How doe's one begin to impress an individual who's big day involved battling a blizzard to get to a pawnshop to pickup a 75 round drum for their AK and apparently pulled it off?
kennyt

climber
Woodfords,California
Dec 26, 2012 - 09:28pm PT
Someone in that family must be so proud!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m64lIa7tRI0
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Dec 26, 2012 - 10:29pm PT
Cosmiccragsman

Trad climber
AKA Dwain, from Apple Valley, Ca. and Vegas!
Dec 26, 2012 - 10:59pm PT
I killed a guy with a Brick planter
back in 73, when he stabbed me in the back
with a screwdriver.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Dec 26, 2012 - 11:03pm PT
Phillips or slotted?
Cosmiccragsman

Trad climber
AKA Dwain, from Apple Valley, Ca. and Vegas!
Dec 26, 2012 - 11:06pm PT
flathead, fear.
The only thing that save my life was the military jacket I was wearing.
The screwdriver went in and punctured the pericardial sack.
I came close to dying.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 26, 2012 - 11:14pm PT
Nice try kenny but most of my groceries come from George and I had a dental checkup.

Stopping by the pawnshop brought me up to speed on how much you gun haters are increasing my wealth.






TGT
great photo.
kennyt

climber
Woodfords,California
Dec 26, 2012 - 11:17pm PT
That might fly if you had any teeth to check on. Don't try to change yer story now Poindexter
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Dec 26, 2012 - 11:25pm PT
That's seriously sad when someone thinks he's wealthier because his guns and ammo are worth more and has to tell us about it. Better take advantage of the new dweeb gun boyz and sell at the peak.

Better report your new wealth to the credit union, you might be able to move up to a double-wide loan.
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Dec 27, 2012 - 12:06am PT
Just think how much guns and ammo will be worth when the 2nd amendment gets repealed and the guerrilla insurrection starts. Chaz will have to ride his donkeys into town to get his meager rations, but he'll be dreaming of how to cash in on that gold nugget of a gun he's got buried in the back yard.
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Dec 27, 2012 - 12:06am PT
I have friends who own so many damn guns that it is obviously an obsession. I pride myself as being a minimalist. I own less than ten. You really don't need any, but you can get by on one or two if you like to hunt. I have a bunch of guns, but basically use my very old 30.06, which is perfectly capable of shooting the head off of a squirrel or killing an elk. Ammo is everywhere and cheap. 5 round mag. On a year when I'm hunting I use one or two rounds per year. One for each deer. I only take easy shots.

Some of the gunheads insist on as many guns as possible, but I think they wouldn't buy as many if they got more pussy. Plain and simple. Guys don't need that stuff if they are getting pussy. You are also less likely to go postal if you get pussy.

I'll go so far as to say that men go to war and much of the world's problems are due to that very thing: pussy. If men got more tail, they wouldn't even think of shooting the fireman.

Seriously. Have any of you blinked awake with a snoozing naked woman next to you and thought, "Today's the day! I'm gonna go whack a bunch of people!"

No. You try to get a morning quicky, do a quick whore bath in the sink, nab yer clothes and head for work or go climbing or whatever. Then you seek each other out in the evening for a few more rounds.

Look at those Muslims. They are so messed up that thier peckers must be in a permanent erection. Not only do they not have porn, the preachers won't let the women do more than show their eyes, if that! Those bastards are horny and dejected. If they got laid more often, they would be mellow, like the French.

The Islamic countries are seriously messed up in the poon tang department. Just think about it. If they spent a few hours a day balls deep (Boo Yah!!!)the last thing they would be doing is contemplating how to get rid of the infidels.

I read somewhere that when they do the deed, it is basically bend her over, toss that Burka up a bit, go at it from behind, and are done in thirty seconds or so. Maybe that is why they need 80 wives. We get 80 times as much lovin' out of one woman compared to their 80. They literally go out of their way to make it the most unpleasant thing in the world. If you connect that with the horny mind of a 20 year old, you have the perfect soldier with absolutely nothing to live for.

I'm telling ya. Most of the world's problems and most of the great art is about this very topic: Miserable guys trying to get laid.

BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Dec 27, 2012 - 12:10am PT
It is all about poon tang.
kennyt

climber
Woodfords,California
Dec 27, 2012 - 12:10am PT
+1 for the get more pussy theory. you could get rid of the guns and the prozac.
kennyt

climber
Woodfords,California
Dec 27, 2012 - 12:13am PT
Ron, you may have a point.
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Dec 27, 2012 - 12:13am PT
Yep. I'm gonna flood this thread with the get more pussy theory.

Just think about it. Hell, religion leads to less pussy, so religion lends itself to more violence.

Get a horny girlfriend and save the world.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Dec 27, 2012 - 12:15am PT
"Just think about it. Hell, religion leads to less pussy"


Not necessarily true.

I know guys who attend[ed] church specifically to meet women. They do better there than most guys do in bars.
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Dec 27, 2012 - 12:23am PT
Works for me. I got pussy 24/7 and have no problems with guns. :)
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 27, 2012 - 12:24am PT
You know, I'm getting a lot of chuck for the buck needling the anti gunners once or twice a day into demonstrating just how immature, petulant and hateful they are, but I take my hat off to Twisted Crank who pulled off a spectacular fire & forget troll with this thread.

It was like shooting a single bottle rocket a hundred meters into a fireworks store and watching the whole place go up.
kennyt

climber
Woodfords,California
Dec 27, 2012 - 12:25am PT
Crimpergirl for the win.
kennyt

climber
Woodfords,California
Dec 27, 2012 - 12:29am PT
[
photo not found
Missing photo ID#280743
I'm always in trouble!
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Dec 27, 2012 - 12:45am PT
Works for me. I got pussy 24/7 and have no problems with guns. :)

See? It's easy. The solution to the whole gun thing is to make M-to-F surgery available free of charge.
10b4me

Boulder climber
Somewhere on 395
Dec 27, 2012 - 01:00am PT
Pretty much sums up the whole wingnut vs reality scenario

pot calling the kettle black, joe

get over it. go out and climb, oh wait. . . . . . .
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Dec 27, 2012 - 01:01am PT
Check out a Marine supporting my poon tang theory. It pops up at about 90 seconds in.

"Lack of pussy is the root of all global instability."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4y_mXLYh_PA
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Dec 27, 2012 - 01:02am PT
you may want to move up on your schedule a bit there ghost

Dude, when I moved to the big city back in '73 I gave all my guns away to a friend. It was almost 20 years later that I went to Germany for the M-to-F surgery. Not gun-related at all in my case.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Dec 27, 2012 - 01:04am PT
Yep. I'm gonna flood this thread with the get more pussy theory.

Just think about it. Hell, religion leads to less pussy, so religion lends itself to more violence.

Get a horny girlfriend and save the world.

Either pussy or those psychedelic ponies that killed off the other thread....
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Dec 27, 2012 - 01:53am PT
Wow Hedge you really have a thing about penis size.

In keeping with your criticisms of Ron, perhaps you should provide us with a link to a peer reviewed study which proves that men who support the right to responsible gun ownership actually have smaller penises??

I don't want to see some study which shows that a man could compensate for being deprived that way by liking guns, guys do lots of things to compensate for being unlucky in that way (buying Corvettes etc.,) I want to see real evidence which supports the broad generalizations you have been laying out here.

I won't hold my breath...
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Dec 27, 2012 - 09:17am PT
I am not worried about the govt takeing my freedom. I got my guns to protect my freedom from the teabaggers.
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Dec 27, 2012 - 09:34am PT
Joe said:
"I have no idea what that last sentence means - arsenals trump free speech, voting, and all the rest of the constitution?"



You should just re-read it, but I'll restate the point and talk slow for you. The clear point is I believe that the 2nd amendment is there to protect citizens from tyrany from the overlord class (making a joke and a point here with the word overlord). If you do some research you will find that subject hotly debated at the time, more than we can discuss here with a few quips and words. Here's Jefferson for example.
"When the people fear their government there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty. The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government. – Thomas Jefferson"

I agree: The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Dec 27, 2012 - 09:57am PT
or a similar sediment:
“Firearms are second only to the Constitution in importance; they are the peoples’ liberty’s teeth.” – George Washington


So continue on with the "WHATS THAT MEAN WHAT THAT MEAN"....theme questioning the founders, or similar points....but hopefully there is something to quietly consider for you and others.
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Dec 27, 2012 - 11:09am PT
I don't get it. Liberals think we'll never need to use guns.

... So why have them?



Why do cops have them?
The Warbler

climber
the edge of America
Dec 27, 2012 - 11:20am PT
While I appreciate the "sediment" (in the context of post Revolutionary War in America) I'm sure you could find many quotes from those guys which have been made irrelevant by 200 years of changing times.


And hat's off to those with pussy 24/7
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Dec 27, 2012 - 11:26am PT
We're talking Arsenal? I'm sooo pissed off that they traded Van Persie to Man U.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Dec 27, 2012 - 11:28am PT
The constitution authorizes an army and navy, no mention of an air force. Scalia should declare the air force unconstitutional under strict construction. He is only a strict constructionist when it is convenient for his agenda
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Dec 27, 2012 - 12:04pm PT
Very true Bruce... very true.

Unfortunately the corporate-government cancer seems to be in its final stages. When it all does fall apart, we'll see how absolutely meaningless all those slips of green paper are. The ones most of us worked all our lives for. For people without real skills, that's going to be a problem

Being well armed is just a tiny part of being prepared. A very tiny part.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Dec 27, 2012 - 12:20pm PT
I don't agree with everything Ron Paul believes, but he seems to be an honest and sincere actual human being, unlike the recent crop of puppets we had in the elections.

From Ron:

The senseless and horrific killings last week in Newtown, Connecticut reminded us that a determined individual or group of individuals can cause great harm no matter what laws are in place. Connecticut already has restrictive gun laws relative to other states, including restrictions on fully automatic, so-called “assault” rifles and gun-free zones.

Predictably, the political left responded to the tragedy with emotional calls for increased gun control. This is understandable, but misguided. The impulse to have government “do something” to protect us in the wake national tragedies is reflexive and often well intentioned. Many Americans believe that if we simply pass the right laws, future horrors like the Sandy Hook Elementary shooting can be prevented. But this impulse ignores the self evident truth that criminals don’t obey laws.

The political right, unfortunately, has fallen into the same trap in its calls for quick legislative solutions to gun violence. If only we put armed police or armed teachers in schools, we’re told, would-be school shooters will be dissuaded or stopped.

While I certainly agree that more guns equals less crime and that private gun ownership prevents many shootings, I don’t agree that conservatives and libertarians should view government legislation, especially at the federal level, as the solution to violence. Real change can happen only when we commit ourselves to rebuilding civil society in America, meaning a society based on family, religion, civic and social institutions, and peaceful cooperation through markets. We cannot reverse decades of moral and intellectual decline by snapping our fingers and passing laws.

Let’s not forget that our own government policies often undermine civil society, cheapen life, and encourage immorality. The president and other government officials denounce school violence, yet still advocate for endless undeclared wars abroad and easy abortion at home. U.S. drone strikes kill thousands, but nobody in America holds vigils or devotes much news coverage to those victims, many of which are children, albeit, of a different color.

Obviously I don’t want to conflate complex issues of foreign policy and war with the Sandy Hook shooting, but it is important to make the broader point that our federal government has zero moral authority to legislate against violence.

Furthermore, do we really want to live in a world of police checkpoints, surveillance cameras, metal detectors, X-ray scanners, and warrantless physical searches? We see this culture in our airports: witness the shabby spectacle of once proud, happy Americans shuffling through long lines while uniformed TSA agents bark orders. This is the world of government provided “security,” a world far too many Americans now seem to accept or even endorse. School shootings, no matter how horrific, do not justify creating an Orwellian surveillance state in America.

Do we really believe government can provide total security? Do we want to involuntarily commit every disaffected, disturbed, or alienated person who fantasizes about violence? Or can we accept that liberty is more important than the illusion of state-provided security? Government cannot create a world without risks, nor would we really wish to live in such a fictional place. Only a totalitarian society would even claim absolute safety as a worthy ideal, because it would require total state control over its citizens’ lives. We shouldn’t settle for substituting one type of violence for another. Government role is to protect liberty, not to pursue unobtainable safety.

Our freedoms as Americans preceded gun control laws, the TSA, or the Department of Homeland Security. Freedom is defined by the ability of citizens to live without government interference, not by safety. It is easy to clamor for government security when terrible things happen; but liberty is given true meaning when we support it without exception, and we will be safer for it.

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 27, 2012 - 12:49pm PT
Norton;




Real change can happen only when we commit ourselves to rebuilding civil society in America, meaning a society based on family, religion, civic and social institutions, and peaceful cooperation through markets. We cannot reverse decades of moral and intellectual decline by snapping our fingers and passing laws.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Dec 27, 2012 - 12:53pm PT
photo not found
Missing photo ID#280789
locker

Social climber
state of Kumbaya...
Dec 27, 2012 - 12:54pm PT


"we believe that complete, unfettered access to full scale military assault weapons should not be so easy to get ahold of, and we think the guys who wrote the 2nd Amendment over 200 years ago would agree, especially considering the weapons back then were black powder single shot muskets"...


+1

fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Dec 27, 2012 - 12:58pm PT
Hehe,

I'm printing that one out Philo...

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 27, 2012 - 01:25pm PT
Could it be that you don't know what "civil" means?