Does the NRA have a stupid pill problem?

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TwistedCrank

climber
Dingleberry Gulch, Ideeho
Topic Author's Original Post - Dec 21, 2012 - 01:01pm PT
Just askin.



Yeah, I want my kids going to school where they got armed guards marching patrol around the perimeter. You might as well send them to prison.



Stupid fukks, the NRA.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Dec 21, 2012 - 01:06pm PT
Indeed....

I find it strange that neither side the the "gun issue" is willing to look into direct causation of psychotropic meds in these cases.

All just have a vague "mental health" mention. Whatever the Hell that means.

None of these recent killers were insane raging psychotics before.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 21, 2012 - 01:06pm PT

We all need to sit down and have a discussion of the role of the press in our society. Does it keep us safer? Or does it encourage more attacks putting more children in danger?
It is time to forget the politics of a free-press and instead think of the larger questions like the safety of our children.

We’re not talking about taking away the BullStreamMedia First Amendment rights; we’re only talking about cutting the carnage brought about by Assault Journalism.

Does the BSM really need high-capacity magazines?

Does the BSM really need 5 minute clips?

The 1st amendment guarantees the freedom of the press but that isn’t an unlimited right by any means. The 1st amendment was written back in a time of printed media that traveled at the speed of a horse.

There is no way the founding fathers could have known how media technology would evolve.

These days the BSM can operate at the speed of light, with video cameras shooting at least 30 frames a second. They could not have envisioned high-capacity magazines that can shoot out reams of lies before they need to be reloaded with the next issue.

They could not have envisioned the private sale of Media outside the control of the government, private Media that could easily set off the next lunatic on a spree of carnage.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Dec 21, 2012 - 01:09pm PT
Don't know about the NRA but I am positive the NBA has an unlimited supply.
Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
Dec 21, 2012 - 01:14pm PT
I find it strange that neither side the the "gun issue" is willing to look into direct causation of psychotropic meds in these cases.

That's because there is no cause and effect. You've got your cause & effect mixed up. It's the underlying mental illness that is the cause, not the drugs used to treat people who are mentally ill.


donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Dec 21, 2012 - 01:26pm PT
Shiver.....with NRA pronouncements I feel the breath of evil incarnate.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Dec 21, 2012 - 01:35pm PT
They must have gotten their Stupid Pills from Barbara Boxer.

Only Boxer's hooked on the full-strength ones! Boxer thinks the National Guard needs to be deployed to schools.

http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/la-pn-sen-boxer-national-guard-schools-20121219,0,7530900.story





Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Dec 21, 2012 - 01:51pm PT
Building a bomb isn't a knee jerk reaction. It would take some effort and time.

Grabbing a gun and going postal is the definition of knee jerk reaction.

How about regulating more strongly, or banning, large capacity clips for semi auto weapons?
jstan

climber
Dec 21, 2012 - 01:53pm PT
We all need to sit down and have a discussion of the role of the press in our society. Does it keep us safer?

Definitely. And yes they are keeping us safer. If the press were not there we would probably be quicker to sweep this all under the rug and to do nothing. I know this gives a problem to those who believe a closet full of bushmasters will allow them to overthrow the government or beat back a party of Seals attacking their home. But let's face it. When you balance doing nothing to prevent the slaughter of six year olds in their school, versus the pleasure of having a deluded belief

the choice is pretty simple.

And yes we hope very fervently this will not stop with outlawing civil purchase of additional combat weapons and outlawing civil ownership of large magazines.

The weapons are not even the major question that will come up. Not even. We will have to consider the tradeoffs involved in the Federal government monitoring internet searches, all internet searches, to try and discover who might be getting the information they need to prepare for a slaughter.

That will be a real question. I wish I could say I thought a complete ban on any possession of combat weapons would relieve us of the need for such monitoring. But I doubt it.

If anyone wants to become an insurgent Iraq has shown them how to do it. Suicide bombs and IED's. Combat weapons are not even the way.

zBrown

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Dec 21, 2012 - 01:59pm PT
What stops a bad guy from having a gun is the correct question at this point.

donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Dec 21, 2012 - 02:09pm PT
Low information voter....let's see, that might be someone who believes in creationism and doesn't think that human caused global warming is factual. Now what party do you think such a person would vote for?
atchafalaya

Boulder climber
Dec 21, 2012 - 02:12pm PT
"A totalitarian state run by the all- knowing, all- seeing , and ever -compassionate liberal intellectual elite empowered by the government -dependent masses."

Hahahahahaha... Its posts like this that are the strongest argument for controlling assault weapons.
Roadie

Trad climber
Bishop, Ca
Dec 21, 2012 - 02:15pm PT
While the NRA does not weigh in on non-gun issues it seems like many of its members are also staunch Tea-party supporters. I wonder who the NRA thinks is going to end up paying for all those armed, and hopefully trained, school guards.
Maybe the NRA could pick up the tab.
Just a thought.
zBrown

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Dec 21, 2012 - 02:16pm PT
A totalitarian state run by the all- knowing, all- seeing , and ever -compassionate liberal intellectual elite empowered by the government -dependent masses.
They will fix everything.

The correct question here is how is someone as stupid as you to be prevented from owning a gun or even appearing in public. Time for you to crawl back into your survivalist cave.

JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Dec 21, 2012 - 02:19pm PT
Don't know about the NRA but I am positive the NBA has an unlimited supply.

Excellent, although I think the NRA's proposal is right up there, too.

Jstan, I wish I could be more sanguine on the role of the media in all this. Unfortunately, the role of the media has not changed since the inception of our Republic -- it is to sell its product. Whether it's Hearst ginning up hysteria over the Maine or the modern press making you think the murder rate is spiraling upward (rather than the truth, viz. downward), they're just trying to create enough of a sensation to get us to buy their wares.

Sad to say, the vast majority of the American public has no taste for facts, so no one reports mere facts except for a very few outlets. There's clearly a market for objective news; otherwise the Wall Street Journal would be out of business, given its rather high price with no free access. Unfortunately, that market is apparently pretty small. The New York Times might still be doing OK, but most other news organizations that report with any depth are in deep financial trouble.

If we could change that, we'd be on to something. Since I don't see that changing, we need to work with what we have. The media's going orgasmic over the possibility of using this latest tragedy to make illegal use of firearms more illegal was not one of the media's finer hours.

John
atchafalaya

Boulder climber
Dec 21, 2012 - 02:22pm PT
"Controlling assault weapons won't stop those events from happening"

I agree, but it makes sense to try to keep guns out of delusional idiots hands. And so I support any regulation that make it more difficult/impossible to obtain those weapons.
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Dec 21, 2012 - 02:27pm PT
So, is this a 'diss the tea party' thread?

If so, I'm all in. F*#k 'em.
wayne w

Trad climber
the nw
Dec 21, 2012 - 02:35pm PT
Perhaps we should consider arming the School custodial staff, lunch room employees, and crossing guards as well. That will solve the problem.
atchafalaya

Boulder climber
Dec 21, 2012 - 02:40pm PT
"That is not what is being proposed by the gun-hating Left. They are proposing that these
bans affect everyone . They won't stop until all weapons owned by ordinary citizens are prohibited.
They are exploiting this tragedy to bring that outcome about."

Thats just not true. Assault weapon bans should affect everyone, but noone is advocating taking your hunting rifles and shotguns, or handguns.
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Dec 21, 2012 - 02:47pm PT
trained to do whatever it takes to stop them.

Like force them to commit suicide? That seems to be the common result of these brutal massacres. Why would death dissuade someone who wants to die?
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Dec 21, 2012 - 03:12pm PT
“The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun.”

so says the NRA chief spokesman today

Well, bullsh#t.

Jared Loughner's rampage in Tucson was stopped when he had to pause to reload. Brave UNARMED citizens used that window of opportunity to pounce on him.
PAUL SOUZA

Trad climber
Central Valley, CA
Dec 21, 2012 - 03:15pm PT
While violence is a characteristic of mental illness, not all mentally ill people are violent.

Why don't we listen to the experts? Such as world renowned forensic psychiatrist, Dr. Park Dietz, who is in this video at 1:40.

[Click to View YouTube Video]
rectorsquid

climber
Lake Tahoe
Dec 21, 2012 - 03:33pm PT
Public schools are already prisons. The kids are required by law to be there and have very limited ability to get out other than at organized yard time. Most schools are fenced in. Most have police of their own, at least part time.

Schools are already safer than most other places. This need to protect kids 100% in school then let them near a car or highway on the way home is absurd.

Dave
rectorsquid

climber
Lake Tahoe
Dec 21, 2012 - 03:37pm PT
As to the issue of an assault rifle competing against a pistol, the gun was not fully automatic. Is that type of semi-automatic rifle that mush easier to aim at the length of a classroom than a pistol?

Let's see, Glock handgun with 17 rounds in the clip against Bushmaster with ? rounds? The first three or four are the only rounds that will count so clip size is not really an issue.

Plus, if a teacher starts to shoot and misses, the attacker will still run for cover or be distracted from doing lots of evil.

I NOT NOT ADVOCATE teachers having guns in school, since there are no real gun dangers there anyhow, but arguments against it because of gun variations and coming from non-gun owners, are a little annoying.

Dave
FRUMY

Trad climber
SHERMAN OAKS,CA
Dec 21, 2012 - 03:42pm PT
Ya lets grow the government even more & put guards at every school. & how much more will that add to the U. S. debt.
Alan Rubin

climber
Amherst,MA.
Dec 21, 2012 - 03:49pm PT
As jghedge says above thetre were armed adults at the scene of the Giffords shooting--at least one was interviewed by the press. He chose not to shoot because in the--predictible--chaos it wasn't clear whom to shoot at,was afraid that he might hit innocent civilians, and was also afraid that the arriving cops would see him with a gun and shoot him. This is the reality of such situations--panic, chaos and uncertainty--that the NRA-types refuse to acknowledge in their assumption that more guns make things safer.
Alan Rubin

climber
Amherst,MA.
Dec 21, 2012 - 04:07pm PT
Also armed guard at Columbine, and armed cop arrived soon after. Both fired---both missed--killings continued.
cuvvy

Sport climber
arkansas
Dec 21, 2012 - 04:18pm PT
I think theyve got a massive hoard of stupid pills, so, no, they do not have a problem with stupid pills.
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Dec 21, 2012 - 04:23pm PT
Is Limbaugh an NRA member? Cause he's got a pill problem.
PSP also PP

Trad climber
Berkeley
Dec 21, 2012 - 04:25pm PT
http://www.meetthenra.org/nra-member/Harlon%20Carter

Harlon Carter changed the NRA form a hunting oriented association to a gun rights group . Convicted of murder in 1931 and sounds like an all-around A##hole based on his doings along the mexican border. One of the roots to this nonsense.
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Dec 21, 2012 - 04:27pm PT
I can't believe what a disgusting selfish human being that LaPierre as#@&%e is.

Yeah let's insult the memory of those 20 children that died ONE WEEK ago by proposing more guns will solve the problem (and pad the pockets of his buddies) and blame everyone else but themselves.

Yeah armed guards are THE solution. Like a guy with an assault rifle wouldn't just take the guard out first.

I'm not even opposed to armed guards, especially at bad schools with a history of gun problems, but to ignore easy access to assault rifles and large capacity clips contributed to this tragedy is spineless and evil.

I was on the fence about assault rifles (I see the appeal of shooting them) but now I say f*#k it ban them with no grandfather clause this time.
Ban high capacity clips.
Ban armor piercing bullets.
Ban sniper rifles.
Pass laws requiring guns be locked up or serious consequences.
Pass laws limiting violent video games and movies to 18 plus with serious consequences for allowing a child to watch them.
Do a much better job with mental health treatment and teaching doctors and parents what to watch out for.
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Dec 21, 2012 - 04:28pm PT
I'm pretty sure that's one of the most crucial qualifications for NRA membership

I don't have health insurance though. Should I rob a Walgreens for the pills?
mojede

Trad climber
Butte, America
Dec 21, 2012 - 04:41pm PT
From the Harlon Carter bio off the NRA site:

Carter responded that arming dangerous individuals was “a price we pay for freedom.”



Just who the fack is supposed to pay this "price"????



Oh yeah, the majority and not the advocates...
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Dec 21, 2012 - 04:47pm PT
That Samuel Jackson quote is a fake.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Dec 21, 2012 - 04:50pm PT
Hey Donald, while we are cracking don on the rights of organizations that fill our citizens heads with nonsense, do not forget about the churches, the biggest purveyors of BS.
atchafalaya

Boulder climber
Dec 21, 2012 - 05:10pm PT
"monkey with the Constitution"

Hahahaha, nice Donald. "monkey" with the constitution sounds really bad. Do you mean "amend"? The framers created a process where the constitution could be amended if needed. Its been amended (i.e., monkeyed with) over 27 times. Have you heard about those later amendments? Were those only the acts of deranged liberals? hahahahah... please continue.
Bruce Morris

Social climber
Belmont, California
Dec 21, 2012 - 05:14pm PT
"They have a history of being powerless vassals and serfs who traded their freedom for security by an overlord."

The words of a rugged individualist without any historical perspective whatsoever.

What about Magna Carta and English common law? That's the common tradition of individual liberty in all the English-speaking democracies including the UK and the USA. Our Constitution and Bill of Rights are further extensions and modifications of the fundamental tenets of English common law.

We signed the North Atlantic Treaty and fought Hitler and the National Socialists together to defend those rights.
atchafalaya

Boulder climber
Dec 21, 2012 - 05:23pm PT
"We have so many thousands of service men and women coming out of service and need work.

Putting these well-trained patriots to work to protect our kids is a win-win."

You are an idiot if you think 20something year old veterans, some with PTSD, should be intentionally armed near our kids to protect them. Your an idiot anyways, but that statement was asinine. GFYS.
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Dec 21, 2012 - 05:28pm PT
GFYS

Easy there, Scooter.

You may disagree with Dean, I do, but lay off the haterade and be respectful.

Type what you'd say in person. Then duck, because that sort of sh#t will get your jaw broken in real life.

Just a heads up.
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Dec 21, 2012 - 05:30pm PT
make the economy worse on purpose.

This actually happened. McConnell (sp) said as much.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Dec 21, 2012 - 05:31pm PT
Yes jghedge, it would appear he really is that stupid.
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Trad climber
SLO, Ca
Dec 21, 2012 - 05:33pm PT
The idea of armed guards at elementary schools is so idiotic I can't even believe it was proposed.

Concealed weapons in bars and on college campuses, large quantity magazines, lock down procedures for kindergartners, legislation to allow guns on the private property of others against their will, it's all just totally nuts.


ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Trad climber
SLO, Ca
Dec 21, 2012 - 05:36pm PT
Exactly. I've been to lots of third world countries that have armed guards everywhere. I'd like to think I'm not living in one.
atchafalaya

Boulder climber
Dec 21, 2012 - 05:48pm PT
Would anyone here, who have children, be ok with Ron Anderson, or cragman being armed at your kids school?

divad

Trad climber
wmass
Dec 21, 2012 - 05:49pm PT
We have to start the dialog on limiting 1st Amendment rights. The media has for too long been allowed to fill the minds of potential mass killers with unrestrained images of violence and mayhem. They are also allowed to make instant celebrities of of these killers for naked profit.

soo, take away the pens and let 'em have their swords...

that'll work...
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Dec 21, 2012 - 05:56pm PT
Everyone here is looking at a picture, some say it's clearly white and others say its as black as deep space.

Unfortunately it's grey, all grey through and through and a hundred variations, too.

Armed guards are a good idea some places, some times. Some guns are awesome and we should have some of them in society. Some regulation is needed, and some people will gun down schools.

We keep trying to paint with a broader brush, when we are uniquely f*#ked.


As long as guns exist there will be people that will do this. Now we're back to playing that old game of trading freedoms for safety. I f*#king hate it. I don't own guns but lots of friends do... They wouldn't want me to lose climbing, and guns are their passion.


Around and around we go, circling our children's graves with our picket signs and dogma.
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Dec 21, 2012 - 05:56pm PT
We guard our banks...why not our most precious resource?

I've yet to see an armed guard in a bank in the US.

Maybe you're living in the wrong place?
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Dec 21, 2012 - 06:07pm PT
LOL, don't go to a public school in California.

F*cking libtard.
Ricky D

Trad climber
Sierra Westside
Dec 21, 2012 - 06:09pm PT
How about we designate one day a year as "National Shoot Somebody Day"?

Just have a 24 hour free-for-all where all of the gun nuts, crazies, mother rapers, daddy haters and doomsday preppers can blast away with unfettered glee.

A win-win on a lot of levels - population reduction, economic upsurge for Walmarts, release of pent up tensions, fodder for any number of reality shows on TLC.

I would set the tag limit at one person apiece just so we show we are still civilized.


Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Dec 21, 2012 - 06:11pm PT
I get the feeling that Dean wants to see anyone he perceives as a threat gone. Poof. Magic god stuff. Gone.

Edit; I could be wrong. I've never met the guy, and I do respect him. We just have vastly different opinions on this issue.
sandstone conglomerate

climber
sharon conglomerate central
Dec 21, 2012 - 06:18pm PT
donald, how did you get your border collie to wear that hat? Mine won't stand for that sh#t...
bergbryce

Mountain climber
California
Dec 21, 2012 - 06:19pm PT
In case it hasn't been mentioned, Columbine had a security officer.
Got anymore half-assed, dodging the issue completely suggestions?

I also can't recall seeing an armed guard since I lived in Chicago and banked at the main Harris Bank branch in the south Loop which did indeed have an armed guard on the premisses. That was 12 years and probably a hundred banks ago.
10b4me

Boulder climber
Somewhere on 395
Dec 21, 2012 - 06:22pm PT




Extremely weak points , but sounding strong because of the insults.
.

Boneheads.

Thompson, that is hypocritical
10b4me

Boulder climber
Somewhere on 395
Dec 21, 2012 - 06:25pm PT
We guard our banks


Haven't seen any guards at my bank.(Chase)
froodish

Social climber
Portland, Oregon
Dec 21, 2012 - 06:43pm PT
Not at all. From the viewpoint of who their masters are (gun manufacturers) anything that sells more guns is brilliant.
rurprider

Trad climber
Mt. Rubidoux
Dec 21, 2012 - 06:44pm PT
1st Amemdment rights? Don't you mean the 2nd Amendment? Use your power as a citizen and vote for congressman and senators that support restrictions on assault rifles and semiautomatic handguns. It's not the NRA that requlates gun sales and legislation regarding guns...it's congress. Vote for legislators that AREN'T pro gun. CONGRESS HAS A STUPID PILL PROBLEM!!!!! THEY'RE ADDICTED.
crankster

Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
Dec 21, 2012 - 06:49pm PT
Gunnuts revealing themselves to be: Gun Nuts.
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Dec 21, 2012 - 06:51pm PT
Hell, I don't even get asked for ID at my banks.

Maybe some of you should move out of Tweakerville, CA, and discover the beautiful mountains of........wait, sh#t, keep them away.........Vermont!

Good climbing, the ocean is near, there ARE bugs, but they aren't as bad as they're made out to be.

Ah, Vermont.

HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Dec 21, 2012 - 07:03pm PT
The N.R.A. Crawls From Its Hidey Hole

Wayne LaPierre, the spokesman for the National Rifle Association, would have been better advised to remain wherever he had been hiding after the Newtown massacre, rather than appear at the news conference on Friday. No one seriously believed the N.R.A. when it said it would contribute something “meaningful” to the discussion about gun violence. The organization’s very existence is predicated on the nation being torn in half over guns. Still, we were stunned by Mr. LaPierre’s mendacious, delusional, almost deranged rant.


Mr. LaPierre looked wild-eyed at times as he said the killing was the fault of the media, songwriters and singers and the people who listen to them, movie and TV scriptwriters and the people who watch their work, advocates of gun control, video game makers and video game players.

The N.R.A., which devotes itself to destroying any hope of compromise on guns, however, is blameless. So are the unscrupulous and unlicensed dealers who sell guns to criminals, and the gun makers who bankroll Mr. LaPierre so he can help them keep peddling their ever-more-lethal, ever-more-efficient products, and politicians who kill laws that would exert even modest controls over guns.

He offered nothing more than the most ridiculous anti-gun-control rhetoric we’ve heard since the Newtown murders. His solution to the proliferation of guns, including semiautomatic rifles that have little purpose beyond killing people as quickly as possible, is to put more guns in more places. Mr. LaPierre would put a police officer in every school and compel teachers and principals to become armed guards, because his group won’t do anything about the ease with which anyone can get a gun.

He wants volunteer and professional firefighters, who already risk their lives every day, to be charged with thwarting an assault by a deranged murderer. The same applies to paramedics, security guards, veterans, retired police officers. “The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun,” Mr. LaPierre said. (It is interesting that such a literal reader of the Second Amendment would have missed the fact that Congress has no power over local police forces and schools. Talk about Big Brother government.)

We cannot imagine trying to turn the principals and teachers who care for our children every day into an armed mob. And let’s be clear, civilians bristling with guns to prevent the “next Newtown” are an armed mob even with training offered up by Mr. LaPierre. Any town officials or school principal who takes up the N.R.A. on that offer should be fired.

Mr. LaPierre said the Newtown killing spree “might” have been averted if the killer had been confronted by an armed security guard. It’s far more likely that there would have been a dead armed security guard — just as there would have been even more carnage if civilians had started firing weapons in the Aurora movie theater.

In the 62 mass-murder cases over 30 years examined recently by the magazine Mother Jones, not one was stopped by an armed civilian. There are two cases in which armed civilians confronted a shooter. Both were immediately shot. One died.

We have known for many, many years that a sheriff’s deputy was at Columbine High School in 1999 and traded shots with Eric Harris while 11 of the 13 people he and Dylan Klebold killed were still alive. He missed four times.

People like Mr. LaPierre want us to believe that civilians can be trained to use lethal force with cold precision in moments of fear and crisis. That requires a willful ignorance about the facts. Police officers know that firing a weapon is a huge risk; that’s why they avoid doing it. In August, New York City police officers opened fire on a gunman outside the Empire State Building. They killed him and wounded nine bystanders.

Mr. LaPierre said the news media give mass killers the attention they seek. He said the news media call the semiautomatic weapon used in Newtown a machine gun, claim that it’s a military weapon and that it fires the most powerful ammunition available. That’s not true. What is true is that there is a growing call in America for stricter gun control.


NYT editorial was harsh but nailed it. I find it extra hilarious that the "a gun doesn't make someone homicidal" lobby have decided that killing people in computer games DOES make people homicidal. If that was true then I'd have killed a few school's worth of kids by now.
rectorsquid

climber
Lake Tahoe
Dec 21, 2012 - 07:08pm PT
To be honest, I am all for the right to bear arms and all that stuff that the NRA supposedly supports. But the actions of that group and the few vocal gun nuts is quite disturbing. I suppose that they reject gun registration databases, and all that, because when the sh#t hits the fan and they become the rebels trying to stop some sort of out of oppresive government, they want it to be hard for that government to find and exterminate them.

That type of thinking is just not rational. Zombies and political unrest both happen very slowly and there will be plenty of time to run and hide from either.

The NRA are a lot like the politicians at the moment. They are unwilling to compromise for their own good. They are so wrapped up in their own principals that they can't see how it is working against them. And they need to hire better public speakers or get some decent speech writers.

Dave


AndyO

Social climber
Brooklyn, NY
Dec 21, 2012 - 07:36pm PT
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Dec 21, 2012 - 07:40pm PT
Concerning the NRA.....no pill needed.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Dec 21, 2012 - 07:58pm PT
I would have loved to have been a fly on the wall during the board meeting when the NRA was discussing the language of today's press conference. "God damn liberal media!"

Yeah, lets rethink freedom of the press in this day and age of instant news reporting. We can limit the media so that we do not have to regulate gun ownership. Forget about the fact that without the main stream media we would be relying on citizen bloggers, that would be great!


lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Dec 21, 2012 - 08:06pm PT
The First Amendment addresses the rights of freedom of religion (prohibiting Congress from establishing a religion and protecting the right to free exercise of religion), freedom of speech, freedom of the press, freedom of assembly, and freedom of petition.

The Second Amendment to the United States Constitution is the part of the United States Bill of Rights that protects the right of the people to keep and bear arms.

Funny first the rights or freedom of speech then after they agreed on that they gave us the rights to own, make and buy guns. The first two things.

There is talk of Security guards protecting all schools by the Stupid NRA: Police $$$$$$$$$$$,stupid idea since they should be looking for crime not guarding or waiting for something to happen. National Guard $$$$$$$$$$, another stupid idea. How about giving teachers to arm themselves: let’s see one goes ballistic because one of her students can’t shut up or does not hand in his/her homework in time or maybe she shoots and her round misses and goes through the plaster board and kills a kid in the class next to hers.

Yes! The answer will be to hire private guards. The contractor with the lowest bid will win and hire Ex-Walmart employees, retired people in their 70’s also will hire “Back to Work off Welfare People” ; $9 an hour; they will eventually get bored because nothing happens and they caught for smoking pot. Big scandal, billions of wasted dollars, so try another idea.

Cameras never work; fuzzy and lack of time to respond, plus too way expensive to buy A11M technology. I see there is someone selling Bullet-proof backpacks; first no such thing it is Bullet Resistant/Resistive terminology plus it stops handguns not high power rounds shot from a high power semi-automatic rifle like the one used in the school so waste of funds and law suits concur from that manufacture by cutting cost and disregarding regulated and code because he was awarded the lowest bid which is the requirement by the FEDS. He files for Bankruptcy and runs out of town. Plus the kid was shot in the head so no protection.

So all stupid ideas and give it to the stupid NRA to come up with stupid solutions.

OK

Just went to my local probation department this morning not for me but to hand in some papers dealing with a juvenile stealing some of my personal stuff 15 months ago; we went to trail, he gets a year’s probation and 250.00 fine which is my deductible. Had one week to replaced everything because I went overseas, came back insurance company pays me 6/7 months later when I get back.

So I walk in, it is fortified, had to laugh since I do risk assessments. The woman behind the window asks “Can I help you”, I say need to drop these off to one of your staff regarding going back to court to get the deductible: reason for his fine. We will go to court late Jan. of 2013.

Before she comes out I am assessing the room and see four mistakes, windows, access, lighting…… 2 minutes or less she shows up opens the door and I notice her left shoe toe is against her side of the door and held the door with her right hand to stop entry which was good, she relaxed, gave her the papers she requested and then I knock on the glass window just above programmable lock. I hit and notice it is not glass but plastic [mistake assessment #5] and was so thin could of broken it easily. But I asked her what’s wrong with this, she says ???? “Knocking on the window instead of the door” I said “no” this door is the same setup how the kid got in the classrooms by shooting and opening it in from the inside. She is startled and says “Wow, you are correct”, thanked me and told she will make a note of it and will tell the appropriate people. Then told her where it should be placed.

So what will happen and is already in action for protection for children so they are safe: smaller windows to the outside of the new schools. Older schools will be updated with precast panels with a spray on fragmented resistive membrane on the back to shield at the appropriate height. The children will be placed further away from the windows not near them, Latches to doors will be wired for wireless automatic shutdown by a single or multiple button either by a person or by the sound of a rifle round going off.

Canada has a Sin-Tax: cigarettes and booze. Have the NRA keep their stupid ideas and create a Violence Tax not an anti-violence because Americans well some actually a lot of them like Violence; as for me, I am not one of them on all rifles that are military styled.

Booze and guns have you ever notice the prices have really never changed in the last 50 years; so double the amount 50% on assault rifles and ammo. Half or that 50% tax is used for upgrading schools. Make sure they do not look like forts but blend in and use green products.

And that is just for schools what about violence against women and rape, pedophiles against children.

But then again really nothing just like the battery commercial; it keeps going and keeps going.



Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 21, 2012 - 08:11pm PT
Just WRONG about prices not changing, Lost.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 21, 2012 - 09:08pm PT
I just hope that if there is civil unrest and predators at my friend donini's door that he can keep them at bay tossing used Depends and brandishing ice tools.
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Dec 21, 2012 - 09:27pm PT
Right….

The NRA says there should be a cop in every school with a gun….

LaPieair didn't mention who was going to pay all those cops…
And don't ask the law and order republigoons for any taxes to pay for it…


hey, may Gov cromneycan ask his supporters to foot the bill…?


Doubt it all around.


NRA - New Stooge Association - Where great ideas haven't got a chance in hell!!!
AE

climber
Boulder, CO
Dec 21, 2012 - 09:55pm PT
This is the other thread
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=2020096&tn=40#msg2021455

Dec 21, 2012 - 06:19pm PT
my addition re:
the NRA Monument to Stupidity

(instead of my reposting it here, although perhaps that would be even more effective)

I also KNEW Mr. O was gonna have to go off re his gun-totin' wackness.
The saddest aspect to all this is our country once had an optimism that brought people together in crises; now, the prepper mindset has fostered a culture of cowardly, fearful, paranoid loners convinced they can somehow survive without anyone else, as long as they can kill everyone who approaches. What if, pray tell, those are actually people gracious enough to be coming to your assistance?
Wait a little while, and we'll get to see the first unarmed gunman, who walks into a school, grabs the nearest firearm off a teacher/guard then....
Or, the wierdo who gets a job "guarding" a school, then takes out a few dozen...
A story a few days ago summed it up succinctly: as long as such weapons are readily available, no amount of protection will be adequate, as made clear in the fact that Ronald Reagan and Jim Brady were surrounded by the best-trained, armed security in the world - Secret Service agents - yet were both nearly killed. The concept of armed defenders is total B.S.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Dec 21, 2012 - 09:59pm PT


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arms_race

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner's_dilemma
"The Cold War
The Cold War and similar arms races can be modelled as a Prisoner's Dilemma situation.[22] During the Cold War the opposing alliances of NATO and the Warsaw Pact both had the choice to arm or disarm. From each side's point of view: Disarming whilst your opponent continues to arm would have led to military inferiority and possible annihilation. If both sides chose to arm, neither could afford to attack each other, but at the high cost of maintaining and developing a nuclear arsenal. If both sides chose to disarm, war would be avoided and there would be no costs. If your opponent disarmed while you continue to arm, then you achieve superiority.

Although the 'best' overall outcome is for both sides to disarm, the rational course for both sides is to arm. This is indeed what happened, and both sides poured enormous resources in to military research and armament for the next thirty years until the dissolution of the Soviet Union broke the deadlock."
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 21, 2012 - 10:06pm PT
Got to agree, stupid idea on at least 3 levels.

Public schools are just one of the things my people came up with. In Israel a teacher actually shot and killed a terrorist, but in Israel every citizen does 2 years (women included) in the world's finest military.

Can't arm teachers here, but can't pay for armed guards who can't be everywhere at once anyway.

Guns are not going away soon (no matter how many times you click your heels and wish on a star) so maybe it is time for a cultural change. Maybe we need to drop the rudeness. Maybe we need to destigmatize mental health issues.
I've said it before; make this a world people want to be part of.
Rankin

Social climber
Greensboro, North Carolina
Dec 21, 2012 - 10:11pm PT
Great thread title. The answer is yes. The NRA is in for a serious haircut over the next few years.
McHale's Navy

Trad climber
Panorama City, California & living in Seattle
Dec 21, 2012 - 10:16pm PT
Personally, I think more people should buy more cameras. With a camera you can shoot all the effing time AND retrieve yer shots!

The government could have a program where as if somebody goes in to buy a gun, the salesman has to say, " Yes, that 45 is really nice but we have an 18 MP crop sensor here by Canon that you can take home fer less - here, take a couple shots - tell me what you think ".
AE

climber
Boulder, CO
Dec 21, 2012 - 10:20pm PT
Ed,
Why has no one noted how quickly we then annihilated the Soviets?
Oh, guess it was because we didn't.
Hmm. Makes one pause.
Unfortunately, the world has a few total nutjobs, along with a few total nut countries. I do not feel strongly about the lack of Russian firepower, the continuing strength of China, but I DO worry about adding Iran and Pakistan and North Korea to the list.
Extending the analogy, I feel a lot more comfortable knowing that at least reasonably trained law enforcement officers are the ones likely to be responding to the rare assault event, versus Rambo Ron types who are more likely to hit one another, or other innocents, in a melee, or even a simple false alarm.
The myth of the old West gunslinger is just that - very few law-abiding citizens packed sidearms, yet miraculously most of them survived.
Back on topic, clearly the NRA's primary agenda, now that Obama's reelected, is to sell as many sponsor's weapons and bullets as possible, and what better method than to convince paranoid populations that arming schools will somehow make them safer?
zBrown

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Dec 21, 2012 - 11:11pm PT
NRA is a big part of the problem

Scalia is a bigger part.

Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Dec 21, 2012 - 11:18pm PT
while the idea of having armed guards at school is abhorrent. our current laws and near term future laws dealing with weapons WOULD NOT prevent a Sandy hook from happening.

the only thing that could have prevented sandy hook is an armed guard....

as abhorrent as that may be.
zBrown

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Dec 21, 2012 - 11:25pm PT
the only thing that could have prevented sandy hook is an armed guard....

Rain on your parade

What if Adam (whatshisname) did not have any guns and/or bullets


He won't make it to 80 - his kind consumes themselves from within

Probably true about the consumption, but it wouldn't surprise me if he lasts longer. I try not to wish anyone ill, so I won't. However, should he pass on, I would not be grieving.


Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Dec 21, 2012 - 11:32pm PT
the only thing that could have prevented sandy hook is an armed guard....

as abhorrent as that may be.

note..........i said could as in possible.........not an absolute.....
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Dec 21, 2012 - 11:37pm PT
Jingy writes:

"The NRA says there should be a cop in every school with a gun….
LaPieair didn't mention who was going to pay all those cops…
And don't ask the law and order republigoons for any taxes to pay for it"



Paying for it would be easy - it would not cost one extra dollar, if our dollars were spent intelligently.

Right now in California, cops, sheriffs, CHP, prison guards, and parole officers are able to retire at fifty years old with 90% of their pay as their pension.

Instead of retiring at fifty, cops, CHP, etc. should be re-assaigned to school security - at 90% of their former pay - when they turn fifty, and be required to work until they're 67 before retiring.


A better idea would be to just get rid of mass assembly style schooling, and school the kids at home.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Dec 21, 2012 - 11:51pm PT
You can still have public education.

But instead of gathering all the kids together at school, you send the education to the kids in their homes.

Kids don't have to sit within sight of the chalkboard or within earshot of the teacher anymore if you take advantage of modern media delivery methods - such as DVD and internet - and educate the kids right where they live.

monolith

climber
albany,ca
Dec 21, 2012 - 11:52pm PT
Let society go to hell, we can do everything from our bunkers.
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Dec 21, 2012 - 11:55pm PT
I want hand grenades. Wal Mart is close and convenient.

We are tearing apart our nukes at a frightening pace. That is a damn waste of good money. I think that we should have a tactical nuke at every school.

Seriously, I am a hunting rifle owner, and I need two or three bullets per year max. Others enjoy just shooting stuff up, and that is all fine, but the NRA has gone fullblown batshit crazy.

I fell asleep on the couch with one of the Sportsmen channels on, and kept having this recurring dream as I slept. I woke up and realized that the NRA was playing this 30 minute piece about how if we sign an agreement with the U.N. it will take our guns away. They were comparing Obama to some of histories great tyrants, and were saying that if he won the election he would have us be invaded by U.N. troops.

U.N. TROOPS? DOES ANYONE REALIZE HOW INEPT U.N. TROOPS ARE? First, they are donated in small quantities from other nations. They don't have a bunch of bases and good weapons. U.N. troops are the guys in white APC's and blue helmets who don't get to carry ammo.

Me and my wife could get rid of U.N. troops.

What planet does LaPierre live on? The NRA used to be pretty normal. Now they might as well hire Ted Nugent as the next president.

And like I said, I own guns. Hunting guns, but quite dangerous and locked up.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Dec 21, 2012 - 11:56pm PT
To all you limp dicked gun nutter Rambo-ettes proposing arming schools** GO F*#K YOUR SELVES!**
Keep your whack nut crazy assed sh#t and your guns out of my country's schools. How many of you have kids in school? How many of youare teachers or are/were married to teachers. Your ignorance and arrogance disgusts me.
Columbine had an armed gaurd how did that work out?
McHale's Navy

Trad climber
Panorama City, California & living in Seattle
Dec 21, 2012 - 11:59pm PT
What's interesting is that NRA chieftan blames the media for sensationalizing these types of shootings but yet he himself buys into the whole hysteria thing saying we need to arm everyone. It's all just a little disgusting.
TREED

Trad climber
Gunks
Dec 22, 2012 - 12:25am PT
Would anyone here, who have children, be ok with Ron Anderson, or cragman being armed at your kids school?
Pretty much sums it up right there.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Dec 22, 2012 - 12:35am PT
WTF is wrong with republicon minds? Why do they all think like this?

Because fear mongering has a well proven track record of profitability.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Dec 22, 2012 - 12:42am PT
There are plenty of stupid pills to go around.

5000 threads later there is still precious little critical thinking... I wonder if it's always been this way.

A horrendous act happened, very similar in nature to recent horrendous acts.

Rather than stopping and actually thinking logically, the sheeple on both sides simply react. The ones who fear black sticks that go bang blame the big scary magazines. "Assault Rifle" sounds scary too. Go with that. Only the 'police' need scary things like that.

The other side calls for more guns, more Iraqi-esque green-zones to be set up at Sunny Days Elementary. Shoot the perps in the head. Those f'ing crazies! Make a daterbase of 'crazies' too... Yeah, that'll do it.

Emotion rules the day, and then the week, maybe the whole month. Thinking is either impossible for the masses or suspended.

Both sides hurl insults and use little dead kids as punctuation for their remarks. Libtards, gun-nuts, etc... Pictures of phalluses are introduced. Everyone has to be lumped into little tribes and teams their small brains can grasp and probe.

Fascinating.

Laws will be passed based on said emotions. Their content mattering not a bit. The government doing what it does... Growing like a cancer and seizing more power.

All the while, the next guy, maybe in Hackensack, NJ, who is about to snap is watching TV about drones accidentally killing 4, maybe 5 "brown" people in Afghanistan. Ooops. He pops a Lexipro. Maybe a valium tonight too.

The keys for his Mobil tanker fuel truck accidentally get knocked to the floor.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Dec 22, 2012 - 12:49am PT
Columbine had an armed gaurd how did that work out?

You make a good point, we need two armed guards. Added benefit, if one guard goes postal the other can shoot him, like the plan they had for officers in the missile silos.

Wait, maybe we need three armed guards, yeah, thats right, three armed guards.

The cost, minor detail, with 130,000 k-12 schools the cost would be 9.1 billion dollars, assuming a cost of 70k per guard (includes cost of benefits, we want happy guards right). Hmm, seems low, oh, my bad, that is for one guard per school, 27 billion dollars for three guards. Oh, and read my lips, no new taxes.
nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Dec 22, 2012 - 01:03am PT
The beauty of the NRA's statement today is it will backfire on them. No pun intended.

you'd think they'd figure out how to appear smart enough to show they were willing and able to engage in a meaningful conversation. But todays statement clearly shows they are not. Guarding our schools with armed guards is beyond stupid. It shows a complete disconnect with those that are not NRA members (read, most of the country).

That disconnect comes as no surprise.

Further if you think that everyone should carry you also clearly show a disconnect with the country as a whole. Most want nothing to do with guns. It's a ridiculous "solution" to a major problem.

Stay disconnected I guess....

So the result I think will be is in another week or two there will be some other mass shooting (maybe the NRA will get lucky and it'll be a month or more) and the discussion or rhetoric will continue. I certainly don't wish that but let's be real. We all know there are people out there that watched this latest mass shooting and want to one-up that psycho. It's only going to get worse before it gets better.

I suspect those advocating for restrictions on guns will start to really organize and make a statement/difference. This latest event is galvanizing those of us that realize something has to change. One the other side the brain damaged NRA is advocating for turning our schools into reverse-prisons.

Y'all really think that'll turn the conversation into something constructive?
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Dec 22, 2012 - 10:56am PT
The fact that more people aren't already aware is pretty scary.
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Dec 22, 2012 - 10:59am PT
Fear is correct...
tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Dec 22, 2012 - 11:26am PT
Rather than stopping and actually thinking logically, the sheeple on both sides simply react.

Fear said what I have been wondering about for a long time. The difference between Canada and the US.




You have sides. Either one side or the other is in power, but everyone is on a side and after 5000 posts, you can't leave your sides and display critical thinking and solve issues. You are very representative of your country as a whole. If it came down to it (and it has in the past) you simply shoot the citizens 'on the other side' until one side declares victory.



In Canada, we have political hot button topics, but everyone is first and foremost a Canadian. All the finger pointing ends up pointed at the government - a largely detached and independent entity in society led by the fact that we had the Queen as head of state for so long. We just don't have the kind of hateful destructive arguments as a country as a whole over issues because when we differ on opinions we point our fingers at the government, not at each other.

In the US, the republicans are responsible for the NRA, guns are responsible for mass killings, and therefore Ron is responsible for these school kids.


A decade of watching this phenomenon in each country and I've finally figured it out!
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 22, 2012 - 12:28pm PT
For

private gun ownership
mandatory public service or military
harder driver's license tests
decriminalization of drug possession
more pay for cops and teachers
restoring public land (no grazing, wild horses or burros)


Against

welfare/nanny state
uneducated liptards having a vote
idiots that mishandle firearms
litterbugs and vandals
property tax (you want services? Pay for 'em)
censorship of nudity rather than violence
people that have kids but don't want to spend the time and effort to raise them properly!




So tooth, I am a libertarian. Do I really have to choose a side? Why can't I just sit in the bleachers and watch the game?
tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Dec 22, 2012 - 12:30pm PT
Toker, if I were in the bleachers at your game (in your country), I'd have a gun in my pocket.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 22, 2012 - 12:40pm PT
Glad to see me?
tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Dec 22, 2012 - 12:48pm PT
Ha ha!












No.
Salamanizer

Trad climber
The land of Fruits & Nuts!
Dec 22, 2012 - 01:08pm PT
Because that would make sense, the government isn't in the business of making sense. Now if it made more cents, that would be a different story.
Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
Dec 22, 2012 - 01:23pm PT
nstead of BILLIONS to places such as AFGHANISTAN, PAKISTAN and ANY OTHER STAN,, why dont we put that money into making our schools safer..


Great idea

Better yet... spend all those billions giving our people a better education with better mental health services, and then there wouldn't be any need for armed guards at schools.

Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Dec 22, 2012 - 01:23pm PT
Paying for it would be easy - it would not cost one extra dollar, if our dollars were spent intelligently.

Right now in California, cops, sheriffs, CHP, prison guards, and parole officers are able to retire at fifty years old with 90% of their pay as their pension.

Instead of retiring at fifty, cops, CHP, etc. should be re-assaigned to school security - at 90% of their former pay - when they turn fifty, and be required to work until they're 67 before retiring.


A better idea would be to just get rid of mass assembly style schooling, and school the kids at home.

 I'm torn… Sounds like a great way to pay for the cops that the NRA are calling for and a great way to save taxpayers money…. The other side of my brains says "Chaz said key words that don't seem to have any value to a certain ideological political group that is hell bent on getting rid of government…. a political party with a proven track record of shady spending of any taxes given to them."

So I don't trust it will happen the way that is stated by chaz, though I commend him for making the clearly thought out statement
zBrown

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Dec 22, 2012 - 01:28pm PT
Simple two-step program.

Buy them back.

Tax the ones who want to keep them and the manufacturers, in order to pay for all the additional protection they require in society.

donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Dec 22, 2012 - 01:45pm PT
No foreign power will ever subject Nevadastan. The terrain is treacherous, there is no food for an invading army, and the natives are armed and dangerous.

edit: I'm sure Nevadastan is a net giver of venereal diseases.

edit: My wrong, Nevadastan has an enlightened posistion on prostitution. It is regulated so it is safer for everyone. Now if they would just do that with guns.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Dec 22, 2012 - 02:01pm PT


Vegas has Lattes.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Dec 22, 2012 - 02:04pm PT
It's a damn good thing that Nevadastan didn't go blue during the Bush Occupation. They would have invaded despite the inherent risks.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 22, 2012 - 02:05pm PT
Nevadastan has no oil, but it does have precious metals with which to buy oil.

So it is only a matter of time before an imperial power takes it and builds large military bases that you cannot fly over.

Just a matter of time.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 22, 2012 - 02:09pm PT
So horsemeat doesn't give you the galloping runs?
Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
Dec 22, 2012 - 02:16pm PT
Simple two-step program.

Buy them back.

Tax the ones who want to keep them and the manufacturers, in order to pay for all the additional protection they require in society.

Brilliant concept, but it won't work, either. Similar tactics have been attempted for tobacco, etc.

Look how many decades it took to get tobacco companies to pay? Now what do you think is the likelihood that the government will be able to able to get gun manufacturers to pay?

Increasing the tax on an item has been PROVEN to reduce consumption. A consumption tax has been proposed on everything for cigarettes to gasoline, alcohol, Big Macs, and everything else that is "bad" for you and results in significant cost to society.

We can't even get a nickle deposit added to soda cans. Lobbyists have blocked all other consumption taxes. Can you imagine trying to get a tax on guns?

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 22, 2012 - 02:19pm PT
Looking at that photo I don't see a single AR.

Nothing but cheap POS.
Wonder what it cost.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Dec 22, 2012 - 03:43pm PT
Oh god no not Arizonastan. Please don't start talking about Arizonastan.
Not until the drones are fully deployed.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Dec 22, 2012 - 03:56pm PT
Plus the place is crawling with bugeaters.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Dec 22, 2012 - 04:02pm PT
I don't think it is a stupid pill problem.
More like a G-Spot.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 23, 2012 - 10:17am PT
Wayne LaPierre on Meet The Depressed right now.

David Gregory doesn't want to listen.
Same old litany.
Psilocyborg

climber
Dec 23, 2012 - 04:29pm PT
If you think either outlawing weapons or having armed guards at schools will solve anything you are stupid. Stupid stupid stupid.

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 23, 2012 - 04:37pm PT
^ding ding
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Dec 23, 2012 - 04:46pm PT
No guns allowed at NRA meetings

NRA meetings are a gun free zone? Didn't the gun nutters decide that gun free zones are very dangerous places?
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Dec 23, 2012 - 04:56pm PT
I'm guessing it stems from this event: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/josh-sugarmann/nra-annual-meeting-no-gun_b_576680.html

The National Rifle Association's annual meeting is this weekend and it's a galaxy of pro-gun stars!

Sarah Palin!

Glenn Beck!

Newt Gringrich!

Ollie North!

Oh, and no guns.

Yes, in this celebration of all things that go bang, each of these NRA-sanctioned speakers will be offering their address before a crowd of disarmed gun enthusiasts.

On its website, the NRA warns:

North Carolina State law prohibits the carrying of firearms in the Charlotte Convention Center, and the Time Warner Cable Arena. In addition, the Rules and Regulations of the Charlotte Convention Center prohibit the carrying of firearms in the Center. Pursuant to Time Warner Cable Arena policy, all individuals entering the Arena will be subject to a magnetometer security check.
To think that you'd have to suffer the indignity of going through a metal detector to hear someone proselytize about your right to carry your gun anywhere you want is easy irony.

So why is the NRA allowing their leadership, their membership, and their special guests--even NRA board member Ted Nugent, yes, even the Nuge!--to be forced to undergo the indignity of being stripped of their guns with little more than a whimper?

Well, because to do otherwise would frankly be nuts.

And despite complaints lodged on pro-gun message boards, the NRA knows this. And I'm willing to bet that the rationale offered by Ken at NRA headquarters isn't very satisfying to most concealed and open-carry fans:

Thank you for contacting us.

The Charlotte Convention Center does not allow the carrying of firearms, both open and concealed.

The large size of our event and the fact that many of the largest convention centers are in some of the most restrictive cities leaves us with relatively few convention centers large enough to accommodate the Annual Meetings. In an effort to provide all NRA members a better opportunity to attend the Annual Meetings, it is important that we move the event around the country as much as possible. While we will not consider bringing the Annual Meetings to a city with gun laws we feel are restrictive, we must however deal with convention centers that have restrictions simply because there are so few convention centers that both allow conceal carry and are large enough to host all of the events that comprise the Annual Meetings.

Thank you for your support!

Best Regards,

Ken
NRA Member Communications

Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Dec 23, 2012 - 05:39pm PT
Actually, I thought Pulp Fiction was a piece of crap, well overrated, like most of Tarantino's rubbish. I did like the Tim Roth restaurant scene, and I thought that Bruce Willis was fine in his cameo. But John Revolta and Jackson suck. Though Jackson is a good actor, but Vinnie Revolta, no I guess I just don't get it.

And Donald, you certainly have lived down to my expectations.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 23, 2012 - 05:42pm PT
If there was a big enough convention center in a more gun favoring legal climate they would doubtless use it.

The SHOT Show was only 165,000 people and used The Sands.
I've never seen so many guns in one place, maybe 50,000 on cable tethers so you could dry fire them.



Edit;
I took down the SHOT Show photos. I've shown them before.
People are turning so ugly that it is easy to lose sight of core issues and respond in kind.

One would be people showing respect.

Emilie Parker was laid to rest yesterday in her home town of Ogden (that of her parents, Jello too).
Hundreds of residents lined the street in the cold.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Dec 23, 2012 - 05:43pm PT
Hey Toker, still masturbating over the show. Oh come on, have a sense of humor, you asked for such a comment.
TwistedCrank

climber
Dingleberry Gulch, Ideeho
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 23, 2012 - 05:44pm PT
Yeah. Those look like some useful guns. Yup.
happiegrrrl

Trad climber
www.climbaddictdesigns.com
Dec 23, 2012 - 05:47pm PT
So now I know there is a BushMaster gun and also, from photo above, a ManLicker(sic). Have to wonder who is coming up with these brand names!
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Dec 23, 2012 - 06:46pm PT
Happi,

Most of the names are taken from the person who created the design.

Mannlicher, as you mentioned, was the manufacturer of the rifle used to kill John F Kennedy.
Chewybacca

Trad climber
Montana, Whitefish
Dec 23, 2012 - 06:54pm PT
Some of us are terrible shots. I NEED a rapid fire weapon and massive clip so I can kill Bambi.


The smaller the Pee Pee, the bigger the gun needed to compensate. Where's my howitzer? ;^}
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Dec 23, 2012 - 06:56pm PT
Charles Whitman is the UTA Sniper.

From Wiki:

"Whitman sawed off the barrel of the 12-gauge shotgun, and packed the weapon, together with a Remington 700 6mm bolt-action hunting rifle, into his footlocker. The footlocker also held a 6mm bolt-action hunting rifle, a .35 caliber pump rifle, a .30 caliber carbine, a 9mm Luger pistol, a Galesi-Brescia .25-caliber pistol and a Smith & Wesson M19 .357 Magnum revolver, and over 700 rounds of ammunition."


BTW, you can still find bullet holes in the areas around the tower (limestone I think)
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 23, 2012 - 07:25pm PT
Wasn't Whitman found to have a large brain tumor?

And Mannlicher designed the bolt. Carcano manufactured the 6.5mm that Oswald used.
happiegrrrl

Trad climber
www.climbaddictdesigns.com
Dec 23, 2012 - 08:57pm PT
who the hell cares about who manufactured what?

He was simply correcting what he felt or knew was misinformation posted earlier. Maybe that is more his area of expertise than Constitutional Law and the interpretation of that.

Maybe we should be pretty thankful right now that the area of expertise of our President IS Constitutional Law.....
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Dec 23, 2012 - 09:02pm PT
Did that gun show have those handy little hand sanitizer dispensers?
I mean to wipe the sticky stuff off.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Dec 23, 2012 - 09:21pm PT
Toker V. writes:

"And Mannlicher designed the bolt. Carcano manufactured the 6.5mm that Oswald used."


Don't confuse the middle school kids with facts, Ron. Beavis and Butthead are having too much fun giggling at "ManLicker" right now.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Dec 23, 2012 - 09:32pm PT
The tribe/team concept is very strong with the Sheeple.

If you like firearms then you're a gun-nut and obviously in league with the NRA.

Everyone just has to fit into a nice tiny box so we can hate and ridicule rather than fixing anyone.

Republican, Democrat, Gun-nut, Libtard, etc...

Why does anyone hate that Wayne/NRA character? Because he made a stupid suggestion? So what? The other side is making equally stupid suggestions. Who cares what the NRA suggests? Who cares what the US government suggests?

NEITHER HAVE OUR BEST INTERESTS IN MIND.

Read that again.

I was watching someone grill that Wayne guy in an interview. The host was practically dripping with venom. You could see him just seething with hate like he had Hitler and Ted Bundy in the hotseat. I don't know this Wayne from anyone else but he seemed like typical corporate deadwood like you'd find in any boardroom across the US.

When something tragic and horrible happens the Sheeple demand an instant answer so they can have the illusion of "safety" again. They are typically incapable of rational thought or simple problem solving. So main stream media whips everything up into a frenzy. Today's sacrificial goat? Wayne Lapierre? Really? Who the f*#k is he?

And yet, nobody focuses on the issue because that would be too difficult. We have to apparently have someone to hate and BLAME, preferably a group of people we can hate. The NRA, "gun nuts", the evil Government, the NWO, Bushmaster, pick one.

It must be just assumed young males are now going to go on random murderous sprees with no manifestos. That "just happens".

Just a clue. Obama, the US government, the NRA, Wayne L., have nothing to do with this problem, or the solution.

But it won't matter now, the wooly folds have taken their sides of the pasture intent on fighting each other.

Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Dec 23, 2012 - 09:48pm PT
How do you figure?

By being the largest gun safety promoter in the country?
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Dec 23, 2012 - 09:50pm PT
How many guns do you own, jghedge?
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Dec 23, 2012 - 09:52pm PT
So you're un-armed, then.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Dec 23, 2012 - 09:57pm PT
I like these guys with no first hand firearm ownership experience, who, using nothing but their immagination, claim to know why others do own firearms.

No experience, no knowledge, but your uninformed opinion is supposed to matter the same as someone who has both knowledge and experience.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Dec 23, 2012 - 10:00pm PT
Toadgas, look up Eddie Eagle.
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Dec 23, 2012 - 10:02pm PT
I'm not going to get into the gun debate in much detail. I own guns. I know people who have taken the AR platform and created some outstanding hunting guns. I will say that there are a lot of people out there who like playing Navy Seal, and spend a lot of money on guns with no real use, unless you believe that the frail United Nations is going to take over the country under Obama's invitation. The NRA actually believes this.

The NRA actually believes that Obama is going to flood the country with U.N. troops to take over America. How do I know this? Because I left the tube on in the other room one night, tuned to one of the Sportsmen hunting channels. All night long they played the same thirty minute infomercial that was pretty much just nuts. The NRA had gone Ted Nugent insane. It isn't about teaching gun safety like when I was a kid, it actually makes outrageous claims.

Hey, if we are gonna be invaded by the U.N. you are gonna see their asses kicked, because U.N. troops consist entirely of small contributions from various countries around the world. They rarely get in a real fight. They are only good for trying to save people from genocide in Africa and attempting to stop ethnic cleansing in the Balkans. They failed at both. In Africa, the bloodshed was unchecked. In the Balkans, the U.S. had to take over and bomb the sh#t out of Serbia's infrastructure. The U.N. is a pitiful organization for military force. Compared to being invaded by Canada or Mexico, I would far prefer the U.N. They would go down in two weeks because they are so weak.

Nevertheless, LaPierre was right there in these crazy infomercials, just like a new and gun laden Jim Jones, preaching a right wing gospel that really had nothing to do with gun safety.

I am one that believes that gun problems are extremely region specific. Alaskans who live in the interior would starve without guns, even the crazy ones. Even the AR platform has been around so long that they are now regularly tweaked as fer real hunting platforms. This, of course, has no purpose in inner city Chicago.

It is a social problem. I don't think it is a gun problem. Personally, I don't like guns which are only designed to kill people, like high mag capacity handguns or AK-47's in the hands of gangs. Others like a high capacity mag on their conceal carry licensed pistol, just in case they are met with a criminal. OK, I don't see them as much of a risk.

The fact remains that the NRA has indeed gone Ted Nugent batshit crazy over guns. They serve the gun industry, who likes to sell their products, and limitations on certain things like super high capacity magazines piss off the gun dealers and manufacturers.

Do you know who is one of the biggest arms traffickers in the world? Us.

The old NRA is gone. Now they are a mouthpiece for the extreme right, and posit extreme theories about arming yourself to the teeth to defeat an imaginary foe, no matter that coming up with a credible foe is impossible.

So La Pierre is an awful spokesman for them. Because he is crazy and needs to go on the list. He is obviously crazy. Crazies should not own weapons, he said it himself.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Dec 23, 2012 - 10:24pm PT
Similarly to the so-called fiscal cliff, Obama simply needs to push through a revived ban on assault weapons and similar things, together with the restrictions agreed to even by a vast majority of NRA members, then push it through a court challenge. Get the supreme court to finally rule on what the second amendment actually means - that is to say, that it almost certainly gives both state and federal governments reasonable powers to regulate the manufacture, sale, ownership and use of firearms by individuals. The leadership of the NRA and its business backers is scared stiff of that happening - well, actually they're generally frightened people, pushing an agenda of fear.

NRA Members Agree: More Gun Regulation Makes Sense

1. Requiring criminal background checks on gun owners and gun shop employees. 87 percent of non-NRA gun-owners and 74 percent of NRA gun owners support the former, and 80 percent and 79 percent, respectively, endorse the latter.

2. Prohibiting terrorist watch list members from acquiring guns. Support ranges from 80 percent among non-NRA gun-owners to 71 percent among NRA members.

3. Mandating that gun-owners tell the police when their gun is stolen. 71 percent non-NRA gun-owners support this measure, as do 64 percent of NRA members.

4. Concealed carry permits should only be restricted to individuals who have completed a safety training course and are 21 and older. 84 percent of non-NRA and 74 percent of NRA member gun-owners support the safety training restriction, and the numbers are 74 percent and 63 percent for the age restriction.

5. Concealed carry permits shouldn’t be given to perpetrators of violent misdemeanors or individuals arrested for domestic violence. The NRA/non-NRA gun-owner split on these issues is 81 percent and 75 percent in favor of the violent misdemeanors provision and 78 percent/68 percent in favor of the domestic violence restriction.

http://thinkprogress.org/election/2012/07/24/577091/nra-members-agree-regulating-guns-makes-sense/?mobile=nc
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Dec 23, 2012 - 10:35pm PT
MH, Just about all of your list is already state or federal law.


You are twice as likely to be pummeled to death by bare fists and feet than die via any long gun, including the scarey black ones.

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2010/crime-in-the-u.s.-2010/tables/10shrtbl08.xls
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Dec 23, 2012 - 10:39pm PT
The list quoted is simply the restrictions that NRA members themselves agree to, and no doubt they'd consent to others. They're not so fanatic as their widely-mocked 'leadership'. Some of them would surely even agree to a ban on assault rifles and related weapons, which should be the centrepiece of what Obama proposes, together with uniform federal regulation, and reasonable measures for phasing assault weapons out, e.g. a buy-back program.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Dec 23, 2012 - 10:44pm PT
That list is all common sense, but notice it is all about keeping guns out of the hands of the wrong people, not doing away with the wrong guns.

You'll be hard pressed to craft a law banning any kind of gun that will be supported by the NRA.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 23, 2012 - 10:47pm PT
Yeah, TGT , I was just going to point that out to Anders.

Base 104's invasion of the smurfs scenario is not realistic, however using the unabashedly anti-gun ownership platform of the UN as an excuse to be part of the gang is.

For the first time in man's history (and that of this country) more humans live in cities than rural areas. The demographic is changing and firearms are becoming more of a foreign tool to the population.
The anti-gun crowd is attempting to use this to erode piecemeal gun rights. On this much I agree with some of the more strident voices here.

Overall I hope that they fail.
But if the type of "ban" that they tried two decades ago comes back I stand to make a $hitpile of $.
Win/ win.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 23, 2012 - 10:52pm PT
Well Anders already answered. I wish he would define assault weapon.

The gun owners that would ban defense weapons because they only own hunting pieces are a myopic judases (judasses? judi?), the exceptions used to "prove" the rule.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Dec 23, 2012 - 10:57pm PT
Nice attempt to redefine the debate. It won't work.

The gun owners that would ban defense weapons because they only own hunting pieces are a myopic judases (judasses? judi?), the exceptions used to "prove" the rule.

We're talking about assault weapons, not defence weapons. Nobody said anything about banning ordinary rifles, shotguns, and pistols. Reasonable regulation as to their acquisition and ownership, no more. The 1994 statute did a reasonable job of defining them, although it could perhaps be improved. Severely restricting assault rifles and such is quite another question.

Are those gun-owners who are in favour of prohibitions on public ownership of machine guns, cannon, bazookas, recoiless rifles, and other heavier weapons then also judases? Even you're smart enough to agree that there are many gun-like weapons that the public shouldn't be able to own, and has no legitimate reason to own. It's just a matter of where the line is drawn, isn't it? And it's been drawn far too permissively.
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Dec 23, 2012 - 10:57pm PT
I said it before, but gun laws make differing sense in differing areas.

Even a crazy guy needs a gun just to eat in interior Alaska. Yeah you can buy store food. If you want to go broke.

I have hung out with a fair number of eskimos and even further south. Those guys love the AR platform and the .223 with a fat clip for bears.

They take down grizzlies with those things. They certainly kill caribou and moose.

I read a book about one guy who would kill caribou with a .22. He would always go for a neck shot and multiple rounds. It actually worked if he was close.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Dec 23, 2012 - 11:00pm PT
Any "assault" weapon ban should apply to police weapons, too.

Not that we ever think we are going to go up against the police, that'd be suicide stupid.

But the "assault" weapon ban should apply to cops too because it is never the job of the police to assault citizens. Cops are armed in order to defend themselves.

Cops should only be allowed to carry / possess Defense Weapons. Weapons only capable of self defense, and useless for assault.

Responsible Citizens should be allowed access to the same weapons.

Glocks and AR's seem to be what the cops like.

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 23, 2012 - 11:01pm PT
Nice try Anders, but the primary reason that people own these weapons is for defense, although as has already been pointed out it is possible to make a tack driver out of the AR platform.



Even cops own ARs for defense. I know personally of several cases.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Dec 23, 2012 - 11:03pm PT
I actually hope something like that actually does happen, and soon - the high-definition footage of a wingnut compound disintegrating via Apache, broadcast thousands of times on every news outlet in the world, would collapse the gun industry overnight.

Nice sociopathic rant... you actually want people who you know nothing personally about, but different from you, to die. On TV nonetheless in a hail of Apache gunfire.




Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 23, 2012 - 11:08pm PT
Anders, right tool for the job.

Inuit use .223 on everything. Its cheap, but for a big bear I'd want a shotgun or .45-70, but taking caribou with a .22lr might not be an ethical kill.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Dec 23, 2012 - 11:10pm PT
But you think the citizens are the enemy of the people?

The cops aren't the only ones dealing with unsavory elements.
wilbeer

Mountain climber
honeoye falls,ny.greeneck alleghenys
Dec 23, 2012 - 11:18pm PT
30% of americans own a gun ,i dont care where you live ,country,city.nobody ,either here or in gov has the balls to put it to a vote.......americans avoiding democracy.just get in line w/the4 million of the nra .theres a plan
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Dec 23, 2012 - 11:21pm PT
You missed the point I was making, jghedge.

Here, hold my hand. I'll walk you through it.



Cops carry weapons for self defense purposes, not to assault people.

Cops are professionals, obviously.

When I'm looking for a tool for a job, the first thing I do is find out what the pros use.

And for self defense, apparently the Glock and the AR are what works.

You want to ban self defense tools? Because that's what you're proposing.

Remember. Not everyone's fourtunate enough to be white, and live in a peaceful neighborhood. For a lot of folks, self defense is more than theory. It's survival.



That wasn't so bad. Now, was it?
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 23, 2012 - 11:24pm PT
Sort of inconvenient that more criminals are shot by civilians than cops.

Every month there is a list of newspaper articles describing justified shootings.
So common it would never make national news.



Shhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Dec 23, 2012 - 11:24pm PT
You know why? That's because citizens are f*#king EVERYWHERE.

Cops are few and far between, especially when you need one.
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Dec 23, 2012 - 11:26pm PT
Exactly Chaz.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 23, 2012 - 11:29pm PT
Hint: It isn't the same thing as self-defense

Cops are allowed to shoot when it is not in defense? Since when?
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Dec 23, 2012 - 11:36pm PT
Then why aren't 12,000 a year dying in the UK, instead of 35?

In part because the population of the UK is about 1/5 of that of the USA. So if the UK has 35 gun murders a year, the USA should proportionately 'only' have 2,400. Something like that, anyway - perhaps there's a crime studier around who could help with this.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 23, 2012 - 11:37pm PT
Umm..if they see someone shooting/raping/assualting someone else?

Why did you change from "self-defense" to "defense"?

Uh,...... because its still a defensive shooting, just like if they shoot a guy pointing a gun at another cop.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 23, 2012 - 11:43pm PT
Actually civilians can be justified in using lethal force to defend certain other people.








Too much noise, time out for a quality libation.
Jay Wood

Trad climber
Land of God-less fools
Dec 24, 2012 - 12:05am PT
Studies Re: gun defense in schools



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8QjZY3WiO9s&list=UUlbQJRyYumXUW5hrGjvQNdA&index=9

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLN6_s66wTg
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Dec 24, 2012 - 12:07am PT
By your trad analogy, what should a die-hard aid climber have?

Ice? I've always been partial to old-school double(side by side)12g coach shotguns.

You might be on to something there... Getting slapped in the cheek by those things IS similar to leading WI5 on a cold brittle day. FUN!
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Dec 24, 2012 - 12:10am PT
Wasn't Whitman found to have a large brain tumor?

Piton Ron - initially reports stated Whitman had a tumor, glioblastoma, a type of brain tumor, putting pressure on regions of his brain responsible for the regulation of strong emotions.

Later reports disputed that. I'm no expert. Maybe someone who is can weigh in on this. Even if he did, most folks with brain tumors don't shoot up a bunch of innocents so the role of a tumor (if present) on his behavior seems up to debate imo.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Dec 24, 2012 - 12:22am PT
But the "assault" weapon ban should apply to cops too because it is never the job of the police to assault citizens.

You are seriously crazy. Your crazy thinking led to the shooting of a number of police officers in my community, when they did not have the firepower to deal with TWO guys in body armor who decided to take out a phalanx of cops while robbing a bank:

Local patrol officers at the time were typically armed with their personal 9 mm or .38 Special pistols, with some having a 12-gauge shotgun available in their cars. Phillips and Mătăsăreanu carried illegally modified fully automatic AKMs and an AR-15 rifle with high capacity drum magazines and ammunition capable of penetrating police body armor. They also wore body armor of their own. Since the police handguns could not penetrate the bank robbers' body armor, the patrol officers' bullets were ineffective. SWAT eventually arrived with rifles powerful enough to penetrate the body armor. Several officers also appropriated AR-15 rifles from a nearby firearms dealer. The incident sparked debate on the need for patrol officers to upgrade their capabilities in similar situations in the future.[4]

Because of the large number of injuries, rounds fired, weapons used, and overall length of the shootout, it is regarded as one of the longest and bloodiest events in US police history.[5] This incident would later lead to California enforcing a highly restrictive law on firearms, including the controversial "10-round magazine-only" law for most firearms owned by state residents.


Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Dec 24, 2012 - 12:49am PT
If there were an armed guard in a school, a student shooter would probably just walk up behind him and off him first thing, then the shooter would have twice as many guns. A big kid could probably whack him with a baseball bat and get the gun!

Just sayin. Plus, teacher are being laid off in droves and somebody wants to pay armed guys to hang out in schools? To save a few kids every few years? Seems misguided


Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Dec 24, 2012 - 12:51am PT
Crimpergirl writes:

"Exactly Chaz."

Thanks, C.G.

One more thing: Your Fellow Citizen is a good person. You can trust him with a car, an AR, or your kid. Seriously.

This was hammered home the first professional bar fight I was in. I had just turned 21, I had been tending bar for a couple weeks. One night I had to hop the bar to get serious with somebody over something, and we ended up boxing.

While we were boxing, I noticed everybody at the bar standing up to get themselves involved in the boxing too.

I was thinking "ah shit! I'm already busy with this guy, now these all these other guys all want to kick my ass too". Why wouldn't they want to kick my ass? I was the guy who had been charging them $1.50 for fifty cents ( if that ) of booze, over and over again for the last couple of weeks.

But instead, a couple of those guys rushed past me - one shoving me out of the way - to get to the guy I was boxing with, and f*#king flattened the guy!

I tended bar at a bunch of, let's say, less-than-genteel joints for most of the next twenty years, and I saw the same thing happen over and over again. People engaging in momentary violence to secure an on-going peace.

Your fellow citizen - whether armed with an AR ( like the cops ), or not, wants the same things you do. I've seen it demonstrated, over and over again.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Dec 24, 2012 - 01:02am PT
Why do the cops carry weapons, jghedge?

To assault people?

Or for self defense while in dangerous situations?

Whenever I'm looking for a tool, I always base my decision on what The Pros are using.

For self defense, The Pros say use a Glock, a shotgun, and an AR, apparently.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Dec 24, 2012 - 01:06am PT
Valley Village, Hedge.

St. Joes is my hospital.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Dec 24, 2012 - 01:07am PT
I'm in favor of felons and crazy people being denied legal gun possession.

Is that "gun control" ?
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Dec 24, 2012 - 01:20am PT
It's people control.

Guns aren't the problem. Over and over again you've been informed of that, yet you still either play dumb or really are.
dee ee

Mountain climber
citizen of planet Earth
Dec 24, 2012 - 01:34am PT
Say no to guns.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 24, 2012 - 01:34am PT
Pffft.


Sick people take pills.
If you don't take pills you won't be sick.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Dec 24, 2012 - 01:40am PT
jghedge vwrites:

"Limiting people's access to guns will control their actions?"



Who would want to control someone else's actions?

Only a control freak would think he can control someone else's actions like that.

You're on the same control totem pole as the Right To Life whackos are on.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Dec 24, 2012 - 01:45am PT
Chaz, Ron, et al: By virtue of being citizens of the USA, you are all already under significant limitations. One of them being the kinds of weapons that you, or anyone, can own. Those limitations are primarily for public safety, and if anything are much too generous when it comes to firearms. The balance is way out of kilter.

Given the healthcare decision last summer, the election in November, and the likelihood that Obama will be appointing several justices, it would be interesting to see just how your supreme court would handle a new federal gun control statute that sought to restore some balance. Even the so-called strict constructionists would be on the horns of a dilemma.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Dec 24, 2012 - 03:26am PT
Also bear in mind that while Obama will be officially out of office in 2016, his stature and proven track record as a constitutional scholar will ensure that he's involved in choosing SC nominees for several more decades to come - in fact he could very well end up being a SC justice himself, unless there's some rule against that I'm unaware of

I think Obama was our best choice and Like much about him but geez, once Obama claimed the right to indefinitely detain citizens without due process and even assassinate citizens without due process he lost all claim to have any respect for the constitution.

He and Bush share the distinction of two presidents who have done the most on the road to disrespecting the constitution in my mind

Peace

Karl
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Dec 24, 2012 - 11:02am PT
All I know is reading the "rap" sheet (violence, corruption, vigilantism, etc) of some of those NRA board members make the Weathermen, Symbionese Liberation Army, IRA, Red Brigade, and other fascists groups, look like beginners.
dirtbag

climber
Dec 24, 2012 - 11:31am PT
Actually, other presidents have done things that are even more outrageously illegal and/or unconstitutional.

Obviously Nixon comes to mind.

But Lincoln suspended habeas corpus and Adams championed the Alien and Sedition Acts.

Not to give Obama a pass, but he isn't much different from other Presidents.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Dec 24, 2012 - 11:40am PT
Actually, other presidents have done things that are even more outrageously illegal and/or unconstitutional.

Obviously Nixon comes to mind.

There's a difference between doing something Illegal and having an unconstitutional policy that your enshrine forever. I might grant you Nixon, but probably not for the reasons you think. He was part of this horrible trend of going to war without declaring war by congress as required by the constitution by calling it a "police action." Nixon didn't get us into Viet Nam through so he is really a secondary criminal, like Obama, in that regard. He didn't start anything as bad as Bush started, he just used it and made it normal

But Lincoln suspended habeas corpus and Adams championed the Alien and Sedition Acts.

Not to give Obama a pass, but he isn't much different from other Presidents.

yup, you practically have to back to Lincoln to get as unconstitutional as Bush and I blame Obama for using Bush's excess and making it normal

Peace

Karl
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Dec 24, 2012 - 11:41am PT
Karl and Dirtbag are correct. It seems a longstanding policy that presidents can get such legislation passed. Though I am surprised that Obama, who I like (but didn't vote for in 2008), being a so-called constitutional lawyer/expert, would continue and perhaps indeed make such legislation even more draconian.

I think that by continuing policies that Dubya/Cheney instigated, in my mind it puts a huge blot on Obama as a president. In fact, policies that have been in place, for the most part, at least since WW2. I won't go into Manifest Destiny or anything, or what the country's founders thought were good policies, ie guns for militias, because those were the times, right or wrong (ie native American "genocide" and forced renewal). And slavery.

But the US has been living, and is a global power, in the 20th and 21st centuries, and should be showing more moral courage. To say the least. But politicians suck on the teat of corporations and big business.

And of course, the NRA is one of the most powerful lobby groups in the States.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Dec 24, 2012 - 11:55am PT
Many people see terrorism as "war" against a foreign enemy - I see it simply as crime. But war is more profitable than law enforcement...

Well said and worth repeating.
guido

Trad climber
Santa Cruz/New Zealand/South Pacific
Dec 24, 2012 - 12:02pm PT
From the Minsistry of Dumbf*#kery:
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Dec 24, 2012 - 12:09pm PT
Well Dr Lecter don't hold back, tell us what you really think. LOL!
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Dec 24, 2012 - 12:11pm PT
"...once Obama claimed the right to indefinitely detain citizens without due process and even assassinate citizens without due process..."

A few Al-Qaeda activists who were in active cells, who got capped along with the other terrorists

Dude, Obama called a second strike on the 16 year old US citizen KID of that US citizen Cleric that they drone-killed. (and even the cleric hadn't been proved of anything besides being a cheerleader for terrorism, (bad, but how different that folks here cheerleading for bombing Iran?)

and plus, saying "but Obama is only using this blatantly unconstitutional power wisely and sparingly" is the biggest BS ever. Obama may even BE wise and sparing but, believe it or not, we could even get Jeb Bush in the white house in 2016 (or some worse Dumbf^&k eventually) and they are likely to abuse the power that we fail to question now

Peace

Karl
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Dec 24, 2012 - 12:29pm PT
Jeb Bush? Actually, as I understand it, the GOP wanted him to run in 2000, but Karl Rove stepped in, and... we know what happened there.

Again, look at some of the history of the NRA board members, not so pretty in my eyes.

As for me, I have no solutions on violence in schools. Throwing more guns at the problem doesn't seem logical, considering the past history.

Will education and social change work? I don't know, I just grieve for 20 dead children and six adults, as much as I imagine people in Palestine, Israel, Afghanistan, African conflicts and so on grieve for innocent (young) victims.

But from what I read, and maybe it is just my perspective, the NRA is being run by a bunch of nutters nowadays.

There must be some sort of solution. Rational, logical minds are needed not knee-jerks like Wayne LaPierre.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Dec 24, 2012 - 12:39pm PT
Hedge you are right on! But reading the above it is clear that the biggest boobs on StupidTorpor are here and not on Anastasia's thread.
Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
Dec 24, 2012 - 12:41pm PT
I sold my gun collection to get through medical school. Not only was that in desperation, but also it was quite apropos.

I got quite a penny for the assault rifles, selling them on the corner of Story & King.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Dec 24, 2012 - 12:43pm PT
Hey howz that gravel quarry comin along Rong?
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Dec 24, 2012 - 12:48pm PT
Jebus, actually I do have a predator in the house, but it is not a drone. The little fecker, who we love, brings in live and dead birds and mouses.

Otherwise, as aforementioned, I have no solution to gun violence, anywhere. I wonder if anybody does.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Dec 24, 2012 - 12:51pm PT
As I stated earlier it isn't a "stupid pill" problem it is a G-Spot issue.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Dec 24, 2012 - 01:20pm PT
Karl, counter-terrorism is quite dirty work. Everything I've ever read on it shows it to be so, and there is no way that you can put lipstick on the pig.

One of the critical things operationally, is to protect methods and sources.

So the gov't launches a drone attack against a group, and wipes them out. I am outraged, and post to high heaven about out inappropriate and unconstitutional that was. I don't know that the group was observed killing the family members of Navy Seals, and that fact is trying to be suppressed so as to not let others know that strategy worked. But I find out, and leak it, because I believe in freedom of information. And I press, and I press for WHO observed this....I think maybe nobody did, and it was just a convenient excuse to off this group. But finally, my persistance pays off, and I get the scoop. I weigh the issue of the remainder of the world-wide terrorist network coming after the observer, vs the "right to know", and decide on the side of liberty. The headlines ring out throughout the land: KARL BABA "ALLEGED" WITNESS TO SLAUGHTER.

And the great thing is, the Gov't has made no deal to waste resources having to protect or hide you, in the newest iteration of Salman Rushdie.

Aren't I one effing patriot in that scenario, Karl.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Dec 24, 2012 - 01:46pm PT
"You think you're going to shoot it out with the cops, and you're going to kill them all and win, and then the gov't will...what? Just leave you alone?"


That's how they're doing it in Afghanistan.

If a bunch of illiterate cavemen wielding small arms can run TWO superpowers out of town, why are you so quick to write off a much more advanced civilization, such as our own?
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Dec 24, 2012 - 01:50pm PT
Yeah Philoww,, i know your hate for me is much like your hate for your brother .. Youll go to any length to get you digs in here, even if it involves the decimation of a popular climbing area that YOU obviously dont give a rip one about.

Wrong again Rongo. I hate neither you nor my brother. I loathe the misinformed right wing bagger programming you both constantly barf up. You both jump to extreme conclusions that are usually completely wrong. For example your willfully uninformed impression that the removal of some surface boulders smaller than three feet in diameter is tantamount to the decimation of a popular climbing area. Do you climb a great many 3' rocks?

a much more advanced civilization, such as our own?
Note to the wingnut brain trust - it is an oxymoron to include yourself in the concept of a much more advanced civilization. A "much more advanced CIVILIZATION" would not need stock piled arsenals and plans for armed insurrection.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Dec 24, 2012 - 01:55pm PT
Or crotch rot from sweating in their mantyhose.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Dec 24, 2012 - 02:04pm PT
Ken M: I don't buy it. Those who would shred the constitution for a tiny extra protection against terrorism deserve nothing.

Terrorists have killed about 1/10 of the people in the US in the past 8 years than Falling coconuts kill worldwide in one year. And for that tiny bit of extra protection we're willing to let the president kill anyone, anywhere, far from any congress declared war (as if that constitutional requirement to declare war was observed anymore) That's madness and that's how tyranny starts

Those who would sacrifice freedom for security deserve neither~ Benjamin Franklin

We're rockclimbers. Let's not sign up with the crowd to be a nation of cowards

Peace

Karl
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Dec 24, 2012 - 02:26pm PT
So we have had all states put up petitions to withdraw from the Union,, which is a first. There are still states pursuing this as well. Also for the first time we have states in direct violation of fed arms laws that have refused to change their own laws. (Montana) This is unprecedented actions by states. I certainly never remember such things in my fiddy some years.
The talk in washington over all of this has led to agencies such as the IRS and SS to procure millions of rounds of hollow point ammo from 9mm to 223 and above. This is also unprecedented as never before have such agencies been involved in such massive ammo stock piles..

These are all well known facts.

So why do they now stockpile millions of rounds of hollow point ammo here in this country? Does anyone even wonder about those little details?

You all talk about GUN NUTS yet seemingly ignore the fact that you own govt is making GUN NUTS look sane by comparison.

That is why organizations like "Oath Keepers" have sprang up and grown rapidly. And they are for the most, either current or former military personnel. DEDICATED to the preservation of our constitution and their oaths.. That is another reason the govt now buys massive amounts of ammo, as they are the same military personnel that have been used in illegal wars and police actions that resulted in no change what so ever. From Nam to Afghanistan.. And they for the most are PISSED OFF!

No, they are traitors to the Union.

Patriots do not attempt to undermine the Union. They do not talk about assasinating the leaders of the Union.

They don't LIE and MAKE UP CRAP, like the stuff you put up, above.

They don't do straw purchases of firearms while active law enforcement officers to subvert laws.

They don't attempt to break off states from the Union, centered around military organization and firearms.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 24, 2012 - 02:35pm PT
Chaz, I'm on your side but I'm afraid that the Afghans are so warlike that they are the world's expert at expelling foreign invaders for millennia now.

Must be all the intramural games.LOL


Used to be that Americans were rugged and independent but 3-4 generations of the nanny tit allowed us to forget.
Fat dumb and happy, Franklin's warning is lost on them.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Dec 24, 2012 - 02:50pm PT
Corporations are people too. How do you like that?
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Dec 24, 2012 - 02:52pm PT
Ron, these are the "anti-gov't" killer-nut "patriots" that you like to hang out with, saving America from our gov't:

A gunman set a trap and shot and killed two firefighters responding to an early morning blaze in Webster, N.Y., police officials said. Two other firefighters were also shot and both are listed in guarded condition at a local hospital.

"It does appear that it was a trap that was set for first responders, but the cause or reasons we don't have at this time," said Webster Police Chief Gerald Pickering as he described the scene where shots were fired at West Webster firefighters when they arrived at 5:35 a.m. to battle the blaze along Lake Road. Webster is about 10 miles east of Rochester.

The apparent gunman was found dead at the scene, but it’s unclear if he was killed by a self-inflicted gunshot or if it was from a weapon from police officers who were chasing him.

The victims were Mike Chiapperini, also a lieutenant and public information officer with the local police department, and Tomasz Kaczowka, Pickering said.

Chiapperini was described by Pickering as a lifelong firefighter who started with the department's explorer program and had about 20 years of experience. Kaczowka was a younger firefighter and was also a 911 dispatcher, he said.

West Webster firefighters Joseph Hofsetter and Theodore Scardino were seriously injured and are at Strong Memorial Hospital with gunshot wounds, a hospital spokeswoman said. Scardino has injuries to his chest and lungs. Hofsetter was injured in the pelvis, the spokeswoman said at a media briefing.

An off-duty police officer from nearby Greece, N.Y. John Ritter was also injured by shrapnel during the shooting, Pickering said.

Pickering said that one of the firefighters who survived made his way across a bridge to get to safety. The other three did not make it across, Pickering said. Police arrived and rescued the other three firefighters, but two were fatally shot, Pickering said.

"These are volunteers who get up in the middle of the night to fight fires. They don't expect to be shot and killed," a tearful Pickering said at the press conference.

The morning scene was described as chaotic as police and firefighters dealt with an immense blaze as well as gunshots, local news station WHAM-TV reports.

“I’m not aware of anything like this happening in Webster, obviously not a firefighter being fired upon,” Webster Fire Marshal Rob Boutillier told the Democrat and Chronicle. Pickering described Webster as resort lakeside community that is quiet and usually peaceful.

There at least four houses that have been damaged by the fire along Lake Road, WHAM-TV reported. Firefighters had to leave the scene and stop battling the blazes while police secured the scene. They continue to battle the blaze.

...
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Dec 24, 2012 - 03:00pm PT
Ron, you shouldn't speak to your elders like that. You wouldn't make it in my tribe.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Dec 24, 2012 - 03:12pm PT
Joe Hedge wrote

There is no way to protect against terrorists that involves giving them the same rights US citizens have

If you're a US citizen in an Al-Qaeda cell, you have effectively renounced your citizenship, so please don't tell me Obama is killing US citizens, just because the US-born terrorists haven't filed the proper paperwork with the State Dept to renounce their citizenship

Don't be a BS hypocrite Hedge. You are smarter than that. When Bush was doing the same things, you were crying foul (with good cause)

That 16 year old kid was not a part of any Al Queda cell, particularly in some bum f*#k nation that hasn't managed to attack us anywhere. THere are plenty of people on this very thread who want to have assault weapons in case they have to fight the government someday. Aren't they just as fair game? Aren't they potential terrorists too? Have they effectively renounced their citizenship too?

Don't let your partisanship make you lame. People aren't able to effectively police the other party. We need to check our own side to make sure we stay with truth and freedom

Peace

karl
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Dec 24, 2012 - 03:13pm PT
Ron, those are the same type of tactics (roadside bombs, ambushes) Chaz said could be employed in this country to take the government down if they lose some gun rights.

Which side will you choose if it comes down to that?
wilbeer

Mountain climber
honeoye falls,ny.greeneck alleghenys
Dec 24, 2012 - 03:13pm PT
im a first responder ,just outside of rochester.our thoughts to the families.
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Dec 24, 2012 - 03:21pm PT
You've got to be kidding? So would police officers enforcing gun laws be ok to kill.

You gotta kill a few of them first, to get the Apaches warming up.

And how would roadside bombs not endanger firefighters?
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Dec 24, 2012 - 03:33pm PT
Comments like Ken made to me regarding my "brother" firemen would if said in person, likely end up with a kick to the teeth.


Like I said, Ron, threats of violence, mixed with guns, alcohol...make you a very dangerous person.

Your FIRST instinct is to commit violent acts if you don't like what someone is saying.

THAT is what the guy who killed volunteer firefighters was doing. He had a grievance. I'm sure it was irrational. But his response was to commit violence...like you.

Your brother.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Dec 24, 2012 - 03:37pm PT
GFYS Ken.. You have NO CLUE as to i hang out with. And it ISNT anyone that would murder fire fighters..

UNLESS they were part of a GOV'T RESPONSE....because they are PART OF THE GOV'T that you hate so much.

You should consider that your "buddies", so eager to take out the gov't "goons" would be talking about YOU, as a USFS LEO. YOU would be their target.

Your brothers.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Dec 24, 2012 - 03:45pm PT
As a sportsman, I've never understood the concept of needing a gun that was semi-auto in nature. Just blasting away, hoping to hit SOMETHING.

Someone wants to hunt, bolt action rifles tend to be more accurate. And powerful. I think that's why snipers favor them.

Spraying weapons don't seem sporting to me.

For home defense, shotguns seem optimal. I understand that most incidents of firing rarely involve more than 10 feet. For people who are not practicing weekly, which is almost everyone not in law enforcement or competition, shotguns take a lot of mis-aim out of the equation.

Serious background checks that cannot be gotten around, should be the order of the day.
Josh Nash

Social climber
riverbank ca
Dec 24, 2012 - 04:04pm PT
As a sportsman, I've never understood the concept of needing a gun that was semi-auto in nature. Just blasting away, hoping to hit SOMETHING.

Someone wants to hunt, bolt action rifles tend to be more accurate. And powerful. I think that's why snipers favor them.

Spraying weapons don't seem sporting to me.

For home defense, shotguns seem optimal. I understand that most incidents of firing rarely involve more than 10 feet. For people who are not practicing weekly, which is almost everyone not in law enforcement or competition, shotguns take a lot of mis-aim out of the equation.

Serious background checks that cannot be gotten around, should be the order of the day.

+1 for common sense and basically how I have felt and have tried to articulate but a lot of people don't see it that way.
I'd like to point out hand grenades. How many people have been slaughtered by hand grenades? You know why? Illegal and not available for public consumption. It works when something inherently dangerous is banned. so why not assault style weapons. There's absolutely no need for them. I spent five years of my life carrying one around for uncle sam and his marine corps. I know the need. I know the need in a combat situation. Since we don't live in a combat situation here stateside I don't really get it. A lot of my friends feel differently and it makes me sad.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Dec 24, 2012 - 04:37pm PT
The thing with banning grenades or mega clips for that matter...

If they are illegal, at least the criminals can get in trouble if they are found with the contraband. If they are legal, you can drive around with them in your trunk and the police can't do squat if they catch you but not red handed, even on the way to a crime

peace

Karl
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Dec 24, 2012 - 04:45pm PT
Ron, you're missing Karl's point entirely.

Go read some literature, the classics. It'll help adjust your perspective by learning trends in how people think.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 24, 2012 - 07:41pm PT
The cradle of gun making link in that article was written by a gumby who referred to the ".45 semi-automatic Colt Peacemaker".


WTF!

But it is true that CT has always been big on gun making.
Mimi

climber
Dec 24, 2012 - 08:19pm PT
Dirk, think about it this way. We have armed guards at banks, malls, jewelry stores, high-end schools where politicians and celebrities kids go, art museums, etc. etc. Are not all children worth protecting this way? I guess regular kids don't rate. These are good jobs.

We will never stop a madman from killing. Take all the guns away. Won't change that. Especially in a gun free zone for crying out loud!
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Dec 24, 2012 - 08:56pm PT
Do you have kids in school?


Mimi, like most of the places you mentioned, there are no armed guards at banks any more. When was the last time, other than armored car pick ups and deliveries, that you saw armed guards at a bank? It is the 21st century they use cameras now.
Proven to be a far better deterrent. Arguing to arm our schools because there are also guns in all these places is a charade. A sick and perverse fools game.

It would cost BILLIONS to put just one armed person in every school in America. It would be better to put the BILLIONS into education. Lord knows the Republicans have cut school districts budgets to the bone. First line of defense is public education.
Mimi

climber
Dec 24, 2012 - 09:22pm PT
Bruce, you are too evolved. We live in a world of savages. I say if we continue to expand government as we are, this job category is a worthy one.

Philo, get rid of a chunk of TSA and we can protect our schools and other public and undefended places. Government waste could be much better spent in this way.

Didn't know that about Columbine. Not an expert in mass shootings. I'm sure much was learned about proper reaction to this type of attack.
Mimi

climber
Dec 24, 2012 - 09:26pm PT
What is gun culture? I believe you may have a skewed view not based on facts with all due respect.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Dec 24, 2012 - 09:34pm PT
You will never stop a determined, intelligent, otherwise f*#king psychotic killer. If you don't fix the root of the problem you waste time and divide an already divided country even deeper. We can fix the problem but there is a lot of money riding on nobody asking those questions.

The problem of this new crop of mass killers is different than that of "gun control".

But few seem to understand that or have the capacity to focus on root issues. They see a "bad guy with a gun" and run off onto the gun control tangent, never to return.

If Adam Lanza had crashed a Mobil tanker into the school and burned 200 or maybe hacked 9 little kids to death with a machete, would that make anyone feel safer? Dead is dead...

Trying to compare Israel to this country is probably the stupidest thing I've ever heard of. Coming in second are comparisons to England.

Stop paying attention to the NRA or whatever the Black Jesus puppet comes up with. Think for yourselves.



Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 24, 2012 - 09:49pm PT
Well could somebody from the ANTI-gun culture please define "assault weapon"?

Isn't it a redundant phrase?

Not all guns are used in assaults. Do we call all spoons in prison "assault spoons"?
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Dec 24, 2012 - 09:59pm PT
Ron did you skip Hooked on Phonics and go straight to Stuck on Semantics?
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Dec 24, 2012 - 10:00pm PT
Toker, check with the Feds, CA and MA. They have no problem defining what an assault weapon is.

Good news for you. There's plenty to quibble about.

Adults sometimes have to draw lines in grey areas. It's part of being a grown-up.
Mimi

climber
Dec 24, 2012 - 10:03pm PT
Bruce, my issue with gun culture as a label is that most gun owners are responsible and don't commit crimes, hence, it's a negative label.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Dec 24, 2012 - 10:05pm PT
Perhaps the "responsible" gun owners should be more proactive in controlling access to weapons of mass murder.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 24, 2012 - 10:29pm PT
They have no problem defining what an assault weapon is.

Wrong again there monotone.
What they do is list makes and models based on how badass they look.

Not a very good way to distinguish when you consider that Mini 14s were not included even though, had they been produced a mere 5 years earlier, they would likely have become our service rifle rather than the M16.

Gas operated high capacity box feed* Garand style carbine that fired the essentially the same cartridge.

*(I do have a beta-mag for one)


So requesting a clear definition based on functional features rather than badassery seems reasonable to me

I said "reasonable" as in common ground,...
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Dec 24, 2012 - 10:29pm PT
I knew you would quibble.

All those gun experts in ATF and elsewhere would be put to shame in a discussion with you.

There is discussion of features in the bans as well as identifying by model.

Do you need a link to the CA list?
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 24, 2012 - 10:32pm PT
Merely asking YOU to define terms.
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Dec 24, 2012 - 10:33pm PT
Toker, you want to get into a quibble fight with someone who is not an expert on guns.

Seen it quite a few times from you.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 24, 2012 - 10:36pm PT
So,................ you can't.
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Dec 24, 2012 - 10:37pm PT
Yes I can, just not to you satisfaction, ever. No one can.

I've read the bans that list features and by model.

You can get much better info by going directly to the ban documents, but you aren't interested.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 24, 2012 - 10:40pm PT
Well thats an understatemenr!
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 24, 2012 - 10:50pm PT
I don't deny that they are efficient tools for killing.
But if criminals can get them easily (and they always will) then why not at least allow a level playing field?

If I have violent perps breaking in and I find it necessary to dispatch them with an AR then it is not an assault rifle , it is a defense rifle.

Assault weapon is a deliberately pejorative term.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Dec 24, 2012 - 10:51pm PT
Do you have violent perps breaking in?
pud

climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
Dec 24, 2012 - 11:04pm PT
I needed some ammo for plinking in the desert so I went to nearby gun shop.
It was packed and all their ammo was gone. Went to walmart and thier stock was gone also.
Went to the big gunshop 30 miles away and there was a 2-3 hour wait. the place was packed. Hit up another big one, same wait time.
Finally ended up buying online.

The dealers I spoke with said it was a total panic buy and they "emptied the shelves" numerous times since the 14th.

All the places except walmart push NRA membership and a lot of the folks buying are first time firearm owners. Hopefully, they'll do their homework before joining this organization.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Dec 24, 2012 - 11:08pm PT
I remember when they created a fear of an impending toilet paper shortage in the 70s. Then a feared coffee shortage. Then a gas shortage. Same crazy panic buying. You all taught those Madison Avenue marketing mavens a powerful lesson to be sure. And now it is a Happy Holidays for the gun and ammo corporations. By the way I hear there will be a dire shortage of gravel. Stock up stupid humans.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Dec 24, 2012 - 11:23pm PT
They were selling "bulletproof" little kid backpacks at a Walgreens tonight. They had 500 this morning and were down to about 50 from the looks of it.... WTF??!

Every gun shop in the area has Woodstock level crowds.

Fear has always been a great business unfortunately.



Have a good X-mas, Kwanza, Festivus, etc... everyone!

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 24, 2012 - 11:37pm PT
Do you have violent perps breaking in?

Never happen, huh?

From the BD thread;
A year ago a man Hugh on pcp broke into our house and tried to kill me and my girlfriend. When you have to fight for your life and almost end up losing it because you did not have a way to defend yourself you may change your way of thinking. Before that I never had a desire for a gun.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Dec 24, 2012 - 11:56pm PT
Philo writes:

"Do you have violent perps breaking in?"


How the hell do I know what I'll be having? That's the thing about emergencies; You can't predict them. They tend to crop up unexpectedly. Because if you could see violence coming, you would just avoid the scene completely.
Todd Eastman

climber
Bellingham, WA
Dec 25, 2012 - 12:00am PT
NRA members = Orcs!
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Dec 25, 2012 - 02:41am PT
They were selling "bulletproof" little kid backpacks at a Walgreens tonight. They had 500 this morning and were down to about 50 from the looks of it.... WTF??!

Pretty wild. Humans are so funny about fear. You look at what people fear and what really kills people and people are all gripped about the things that aren't the real risks. Peope fear flying but not driving!

Unintentional injury is the number one killer of children ages 1 to 14 in the U.S.

In 2008, 4,643 children ages 14 and under died from unintentional injury.
In 2009, 6,178,000 children ages 14 and under sustained unintentional nonfatal injuries treated in emergency departments.
Almost one-third of deaths among children ages 1 to 14 are due to unintentional injury.
The leading causes of injury-related death among children ages 14 and under are motor vehicle crashes, suffocation, drowning and fires and/or burns.
The leading cause of nonfatal injury for children ages 14 and under is unintentional falls.

Safer and cheaper to make kids wear waterwings anytime they are near water
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Dec 25, 2012 - 03:09am PT
Nobody reads the last post on a page
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Dec 25, 2012 - 03:14am PT
Americans are weird. There's a shoe bomber and now we have to take off our shoes. There was a rumor (they didn't really have anything) about a liquid bomber, and now I have to take my shoes off to get on a plane. Let's hope somebody doesn't rig a penile implant with explosives.

So we make our rules after a crisis.

but Somebody could take an AR 15 with some big clips into an airport lobby and open fire on huge long lines of people waiting for security check to get on that plane and probably dozens would be dead before they shot him.

and if he did that at the line to get into Disneyland, even more would die

Our security thinking is always in the missionary position. Good thing real terrorism and real nutcase are far more rare than we fear

Peace

Karl
pud

climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
Dec 25, 2012 - 12:15pm PT
I hope everyone reading this has a BOMBER Christmas!
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 25, 2012 - 02:04pm PT
And there might be a few people from Connecticut (I grew up in Westport) who feel differently.

Isn't the NSSF office in Newtown?





Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 25, 2012 - 03:51pm PT
Isn't that the Xmas card that a sheriff sent out to a bunch of parolees warning them not to get into trouble in the coming year?
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Dec 25, 2012 - 07:04pm PT
Assault weapon is a deliberately pejorative term.

Really? So you are saying that the manufacturers, who created these weapons for military use with specific performance characteristics in mind, were dissing their own products?

That soldiers, referring to such weapons, are actually making a derogatory statement about their rifles?

Really?
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Dec 25, 2012 - 07:05pm PT

Hilarious!

These guys want COMPLETE freedom (but I guess not of newspapers).

They want their right to PRIVACY (which they say the Constitution does not guarantee to citizens.)

Hmmmmm.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 25, 2012 - 07:45pm PT
A gun dealer on the CBS national news just nominated Diane Feinstein and Obama as Salespersons Of The Year!!!


No shlt!
Check out this Gallil

There is a day and a half left and the bid is well over $11,000.


http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=322378171


Good news for me over the short term at least.
Riley spoke of the tulip boom and bust in 1636-37.
Timing is everything. Some people made fortunes.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 25, 2012 - 07:56pm PT
Who says I'm a buyer?

I'm thinking of doing a little profit taking.
pud

climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
Dec 25, 2012 - 08:15pm PT
Joe, why are you such a hostile, negative individual?

There is little value in your rhetoric and you are constantly condemning others for not thinking as you do.
Get out and climb a little or whatever brings you peace.

Save us your grief, please.
kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
Dec 25, 2012 - 08:20pm PT
If guns are outlawed, only geeks will be printing guns! btw. I don't think this is a great development....

http://www.kvue.com/news/printable-guns-184691571.html

http://defensedistributed.com/
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 25, 2012 - 08:35pm PT
Ultra light AR with a $7,500 bid.


http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=323412078
happiegrrrl

Trad climber
www.climbaddictdesigns.com
Dec 25, 2012 - 08:57pm PT
Question: Would you be concerned if you had a nephew, about 18 years old, who posted these images and quite a few others like them to his Facebook page in the past two months? The images started showing up a few months ago, around the time his father left the US for another 9 months in the Middle East. Also about that time he posted to his FB asking who would support him if he joined National Guard.

His father is an Army National Guard and pilot who, for the last few years has been been working in Afghanistan about 9 months out of a year, and according to his FB page, works for http://www.avengeinc.com. He can not tell his family specifics as to what he does.






I am not concerned he is going to do something violent to innocent people here,but more concerned he is going to enlist in some military group with a "shoot 'em up" attitude.

To me, it seems this sort of glorification of weapons use seems to be not a healthy state of mind, especially out of a young man who is just barely coming into adulthood, and whose father has been overseas the majority of last few years working in this way. I worry he is trying to "be a good soldier" for his dad, but it may have taken him over a point that is emotionally healthy.

I have been wanting to bring up the subject with his mother, my sister, but not sure what to say.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Dec 25, 2012 - 09:29pm PT
deleted and start over:


so what IS with the "glorification of weapons" that happygirl refers to?

so many "no regulation of any kind" people here seem to have that pathology

they can go on and on about every kind of weapon, every kind of ammo

they wax sentimentally about killing animals (hunting) although no doubt most all of them truly can afford to buy their food at the market

they seem to get almost hysterically defensive at any suggestion that seeks to mitigate wholesale human slaughter that "it won't work" right NOW, while conveniently leaving out of their thought process that it COULD "work" years later IF put into effect NOW

they don't "need" to put thousands of rounds at targets all year around just to stay sharp enough to kill a statistically very very unlikely home intruder

so why not just say it, men "glorify" weapons because they make loud noises, are cool to talk about and fondle, and well, are manly things to play with, and god damn no one is going to take my fun sh#t away from me, I felt the same way about my cap guns when I was five. I own two handguns now, I know how to aim and shoot them, but I have not shot them in some years, nor do I give a damn to know all about the arcane details of their ballistics, I guess other things in life interest me more than my guns.

happiegrrrl

Trad climber
www.climbaddictdesigns.com
Dec 25, 2012 - 09:40pm PT
Norton - I didn't suggest "a link" of any kind. What wrote was:
this sort of glorification of weapons use seems to be not a healthy state of mind,

I think one would have to be pretty obtuse to say those images are not glorifying weaponry. And my concern is that he is considering military service with the perspective that he will be handed a gun, be told "go git it", and then be doing just that.

What would happen to a guy with that mindset, upon finding out that what he is going to be "gittin" is a lot of basic training and orientation to authority. You'd hope he would understand what starting at the bottom means, especially in military, but I am in fear he doesn't have realistic expectations. I think he wants to be a "chip off the old block" and quickly. I can't help worrying he is too itchy on the trigger, and would think that is a bad, bad, thing should he enlist.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Dec 25, 2012 - 10:21pm PT
Happie...

I've had the privilege to teach basic ice climbing to some very young Marines returning from recent tours in various recent hellholes. Officers and enlisted. Most saw some direct action.

While all of them seemed quite intelligent, they also had an almost uniform ingrained blind bravado like I've never seen before. Very much "into firearms" and totally gung-ho with an extremely aggressive attitude towards the "enemy" when those cold belay discussions turned into war stories.

Nice kids mind you but it appeared their hard experiences in real combat did not diminish their zeal for killing "the enemy". They seemed to take direction extremely well, even from me. I'd imagine they will all continue to do well in the field of combat assuming their luck holds out. What struck me the most was how 'cold' they were about fallen friends. "Sucks., but they knew what they were getting into" was a common refrain. They might not feel that way 20 years from now when they're 45. I don't know.

So I don't know the 18yr old you do, but I wouldn't worry too much about his bravado or boasting at this point. That kind of aggression and attitude can be a bit surprising but I think maybe it's required if real combat is something he seeks.

Our government puppets continue to stoke the war machine abroad for God knows what end. As long as that continues, brave young men will continue to fuel those engines with their blood. It's always been that way.

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 25, 2012 - 10:23pm PT
A substantial number of guys with the "git some" attitude go through a profound change when they experience a fight that yields gory death.

Not a guy I'd want on my six.



Saw this beauty. It is made for competition not combat (though in a pinch);

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=323444625
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Dec 25, 2012 - 10:59pm PT
Merry X-mas Coz...

No offense intended. I just feel very strongly about our brave men not being where they are currently deployed. Seems like such a waste of young souls to me.

But that's another thread....
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Dec 26, 2012 - 08:28am PT
Little boys like guns and blowing sh#t up. it's human nature. If a little but has no gun to play with he will pick up a rock or a hammer an smash sh#t with it. The little girl on the otherhand will more likly play with dolls.

We are one of the most the most fcked up species on the planet,,,
happiegrrrl

Trad climber
www.climbaddictdesigns.com
Dec 26, 2012 - 10:22am PT
Ih my nephew had been a kid like this over the years it wouldn't be of concern, but it is only over the last few months. His dad came back in July or so and I am guessing his son heard first-hand what he was seeing go on over there, or at least it was alluded to. But it was as he was readying to head back over that this weaponry stuff started.

I worry it is more about a young man and his absent father than playing Let's Blowing Sh#t Up.

climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Dec 26, 2012 - 11:00am PT
It's not unusual for young men to glorify military power and look to it as a solution for the things in the world that deeply bother them. Is it healthy? hmm.. compared to what? Being a young man is not exactly the healthiest state of being in the best cases. They drive too fast, climb with reckless abandon, party too much and all the rest of the things that go with being in your late teens to early 20s. None of it is fun to watch for the older family members who care about them.

Most of us survived it and didnt make unrecoverable mistakes.

He may indeed enlist. It may be exactly what he should do. While it is a risky job it can be a pretty decent way for a young man to grow up and learn about life. Most do survive even in wartime. Perhaps with less trouble than they would have had out unsupervised in the regular world. If part of it is trying to understand or be closer in some way to his dad, he will certainly understand a lot more from it.
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Dec 26, 2012 - 11:14am PT
Read a report the other day by a Phd that said 90 percent of mass shooters are on psychotropic drugs. I didn't see that link but here's a story about that story.

"A website called SSRI Stories has compiled a sortable database that lists over 4800 incidents of suicide, violent crimes and other incidents between 1988 and 2011, including school shootings that involve people that were prescribed SSRI medications. Here is a short list of a few more school shootings that involved SSRIs:

Steve Kazmierczak, age 27, inexplicably went on a shooting rampage on Feb. 15, 2008 in a Northern Illinois University Lecture Hall before taking his own life. He had been on Prozac, Xanax and Ambien, but had stopped taking Prozac a few weeks before the shootings. Toxicology reports showed traces of Xanax in his system. Five dead, 20 wounded.
Jeff Weise, age 16, had been prescribed 60 mg/day of Prozac (three times the average starting dose for adults) when he shot his grandfather, his grandfather’s girlfriend and many fellow students in Red Lake, Minnesota on March 24, 2005. He then shot himself. 10 dead, 12 wounded.
Cho-Seung-Hui, age 23, showed signs of anger before he went on a shooting rampage on the Virginia Tech campus that ended only after a police officer shot him dead. Officials said prescription medications related to the treatment of psychological problems had been found among Mr. Cho’s effects, but no details of his treatment or the medications have been released to the public. 33 dead, 17 wounded.
Michael Carneal (Ritalin), age 14, opened fire on students at a high school prayer meeting in West Paducah, Kentucky on Dec, 1, 1997. Three teenagers were killed, five others were wounded.

Violence involving SSRIs does not always involve firearms:

Jeff Franklin (Prozac and Ritalin), Huntsville, AL, killed his parents as they came home from work using a sledge hammer, hatchet, butcher knife and mechanic’s file, then attacked his younger brothers and sister.
Jarred Viktor, age 15, (Paxil). After five days on Paxil he stabbed his grandmother 61 times.
John Odgren, age 16, stabbed a 15-year-old student to death at Lincoln-Sudbury Regional High School in MA on Jan. 19, 2007. Odgren was being treated for Asperger's syndrome, a form of autism, as well as attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, depression and anxiety. The defense said changes in Odgren's clothing habits, as well as changes in his sleep and speech pattern, may have indicated a problem with his medication that could have lead to a manic, paranoid state.

The list of incidents like the above on SSRI stories is seemingly endless and all of the circumstances are different except for one – all of them involve a mentally ill patient on some sort of SSRI medication. ........"
froodish

Social climber
Portland, Oregon
Dec 26, 2012 - 11:52am PT
What struck me the most was how 'cold' they were about fallen friends. "Sucks., but they knew what they were getting into"

How is that different than what you hear from any other humans that are around death frequently? The gallows humor among emergency room nurses/doctors, or even climbers for instance. It's a way of coping.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 26, 2012 - 11:54am PT
Well I already said guards in schools was a bad idea on many levels.
I'm a big Ron Paul fan.

But jghedge betrays his ignorance on the subject of collecting guns if he thinks non-operable firearms retain their value.
They might be antiquated but shooting them can be fun.
I even wrote a thread about a single action Sharps competition I was in last year.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Dec 26, 2012 - 11:57am PT
well thats fine Norton,, but why bag on those that do collect guns?



well, because after reading countless posts from people like you who offer NO solutions other than more guns, I guess I feel that I too have a right to offer my own opinions

and if it ruffles some feathers, well then so be it

edit: by the way, I also "collect guns" so I am not bagging on people who own guns


and Locker, I get your point that I like messing with my motorcycles

but surely you would agree that they are not the subject of discussion?
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Dec 26, 2012 - 12:05pm PT
There are 98,817 public schools in America, not counting Private ones.

There are 683,396 full time state, city, university and college, metropolitan and non-metropolitan county, and other law enforcement officers in the United States.

Think hiring another 100,000 cops would create a budget problem? Think you could save more than 20-30 lives a year (number of students gunned down) by spending over 10 billion dollars (conservatively) on new police

The NRA has a stupid problem (or actually, a beholden to the gun manufacturers problem)

peace

Karl
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Dec 26, 2012 - 12:24pm PT
Moral problem, certainly....but stupidity is still the best descriptive word to explain their behavior.
happiegrrrl

Trad climber
www.climbaddictdesigns.com
Dec 26, 2012 - 12:31pm PT
JHedge - About collectibles - As an example, I make hair accessories from vintage sewing buttons. My favorites are the ones which were designed in the advent of the industrial revolution, when artisans used the new electric tools to take their craft to a higher level, before the race to the cheapest began.

I pride, and use as a selling point, the fact that I do not alter the buttons to create the accessories, which most button crafters do. Altering them(cutting off shank, gluing to a backing) renders the button non-function in it's original purpose. It goes beyond diminishing their value as a collectible item, making them worthless except in the most rare of cases.

I would guess it is similar with guns.


About my nephew - Though I am still worried, I appreciate the perspective some of you guys have provided. I have decided that for now I will not say anything to my sister, unless she brings the topic up, and if she does, will refer her to those comments, which may help her as well. (Not saying that I think he is "AOkay, but that my fears have been put in another perspective).
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 26, 2012 - 12:50pm PT
I said for historical or display purposes, not for resale

LOL
It is so much fun to converse with knowledgeable individuals!
My mom was a guide at the Metropolitan Museum, owners of the most valuable firearms in history, the dueling pistols that were presented to Catherine The Great.
You ougtta give them a call and explain why they should render those beauties inoperable!
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 26, 2012 - 12:58pm PT
Anders, that argument works for everyone!
jstan

climber
Dec 26, 2012 - 01:03pm PT
Rule #1 in conflict is you must employ whatever tools are being used by your opponent. What armed security person would be willing to go up against a bushmaster with only a handgun? So the NRA's proposal can only result in school security personnel being armed with something like bushmasters and walking around in kevlar suits. We may expect the suggestion that only one guard is needed in a school will be immediately faulted. It is a low ball proposal that will be found inadequate immediately as a school with only one guard is sued.

Furthermore the proposal assumes at the outset that armed guards will solve the problem. That shooters will be dissuaded from choosing schools as the place to act out their terminal dramas. If it does not, we will have kids in the middle of firefights involving military hardware. That sounds more like a problem than a solution.

The following a blog by C.E. Gant an MD in Integrative and Functional Medicine

School Violence
The following are reports of teens committing acts of school violence during an 18 year period from 1988-2006 (footnote 3), beginning only one year after the first SSRI antidepressant was approved for the U.S. market for adult use only. More than half of the teens committing these acts were taking SSRI antidepressants.........
http://cegant.com/commentary/school-shootings-and-psychiatric-drugs

Whatever else we do, we need seriously to investigate to see what portion of the problem is pharmacological in origin.

monolith

climber
albany,ca
Dec 26, 2012 - 01:06pm PT
Tell that to Columbine who had an armed deputy sherriff who shot at the perps but did not prevent a massacre.
coppertone

Trad climber
CT
Dec 26, 2012 - 01:08pm PT
Join us and help us move the conversation and action forward. We can no longer sit idly by and allow this to happen to our children and all of the other innocent victims of gun violence. Take an active part. Call your local, state and federal representatives and let them know how you feel. We in Newtown are going to do everything we can to make meaningful changes in our country. We need everyones help and participation.

https://www.facebook.com/NewtownUnited

There will be a website very soon. If this country can't move forward toward meaningful change after this and the horrible gun violence since in Webster NY, Pensylvania and many other places then I fear that nothing will ever get done and we will continue down the road to NRA Armagedon where your doctor will be strapped in the delivery room when he is delivering your baby.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Dec 26, 2012 - 01:10pm PT
I'm a little surprised that those who have seen combat would glorify guns or violence. Most combat vets I know abhor war. Most of the WWII and Korean War vets who raised my contemporaries didn't even want to talk about it.

I think the NRA, whose "solution" to the problem of mass school shooting is, indeed stupid, blew it here. TO get to a real solution, start with reality. As I understand it, there are at least 200,000,000 operable firearms in private hands in this country. The issue isn't what would happen if we removed most of them, because that begs the questions of how we accomplish this. A more realistic question is: what will happen in both the short- and long-run if we enacted legislation, consistent with the Second Amendment, restricting their use? What would happen if we asked the same question, but included the possibility of amending the Second Amendment?

My own belief is that the history of Prohibition should make us wary of trying to rely on legislation restricting firearms ownership as a means of deterring gun violence. Certainly the violence in Mexico -- a country that restricts legal firearms ownership much more severely than does the United States -- doesn't give me cause for hope.

If I want to be even more dismal, I'm not sure I trust the bureaucrats who make governmental decisions to make good choices over who is and isn't fit to possess firearms.

My own bottom line remains that the sorts of large-scale restrictions on gun ownership proposed by anti-gun "nuts" would be, at best, ineffective and, at worst, counterproductive. We do need to strengthen the aid we give to those suffering from mental illness, and we also need to close loopholes that allow people to obtain firearms legally without some reasonable waiting period to allow for a background check.

Beyond that, we're fooling ourselves, and we're ignoring the reality that overall murder rates have declined precipitously in the last 20 years, at least. While it might help if we didn't spend weeks of headlines keeping these sorts of events front-and-center, I know of no empirical evidence that shows that it will deter others who want notoriety, and it won't happen anyway, given the First Amendment and the desire of the press to make money by selling the sensational.

Sorry, but I don't see a "big fix" here. We aren't going to become Europe, with much smaller amounts of firearms in private hands, by simple legislation. This county made that decision more that two centuries ago. We need to spend more time dealing with problems we can solve.

John
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 26, 2012 - 01:11pm PT
+100 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


jstan,

the motto at the Gunsite Training Facility is "any gun will do if YOU will do".

Your assessment is too simplistic and does not account for advantages like surveillance, surprise, superior knowledge of environment, etc.
There ARE some LEOs that don't run away crying about how the bad guy has a better gun.
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Dec 26, 2012 - 01:11pm PT
Rongo, Connecticut has a VERY LIMITED assault weapon ban. The Bushmaster he used is legal in Connecticut, but not in CA.

No limit on magazine capacity.

Not much of a ban.


Top weapon with the large clip is legal in Connecticut, bottom one is not, because copies of banned weapons are legal.

You call that a ban?
happiegrrrl

Trad climber
www.climbaddictdesigns.com
Dec 26, 2012 - 01:19pm PT
Perhaps whenever this thread spirals out of control you could bring us all back to earth with photos of various damsels in hair regalia?

Isn't that what the Boobs thread was for? And how well did that work????

Buuut.... my young nephew posted an image on his FB that would have done the Boobs thread proud just a few minutes ago, so maybe he is just a normal young man after all...

I did click through and the site suggested some other things I might be interested in. And one was a "PhotoShop Fail" page. I thought this one might go well calming down the testosterone-infused posting here.






hee hee heee - sorry, couldn't help myself.
jstan

climber
Dec 26, 2012 - 01:20pm PT
There ARE some LEOs that don't run away crying about how the bad guy has a better gun.

Ron that may well be. But I also don't see our marines in fire fights using single shot hand guns.

Edit:

Ron, my point is the discussion the two of us are having will become a hot topic at the first fire fight. And this thread shows pretty clearly how it will go.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 26, 2012 - 01:31pm PT
Kali cops don't walk around with ARs, but after North Hollywood (where LEOs returned fire with handguns against body armored drugged maniacs with full auto AKs and got the job DONE!) you can bet they carry them in their kit.

So what is your point jstan?
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 26, 2012 - 01:42pm PT
I didn't quite catch that jghedge, how many gun related deaths by your count in the UK?
I think you need to repeat it.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 26, 2012 - 01:53pm PT
WARNING, SEVERE HYPOCRASY ALERT!

this just in from kennyt on the BD thread;
Perhaps we have over regulated ourselves to death
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Dec 26, 2012 - 01:54pm PT
Why are there any gun deaths in the UK, jghedge?

Thirty-five dead proves gun control failed, yet you stubbornly advocate for it.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Dec 26, 2012 - 02:04pm PT
35 gun related deaths in the UK last year proves you wrong, obviously

What is the greatest proportion of firearms in private hands in the UK ever, Joe? You miss my point completely, because you fail to state how we reduce the 200,000,000+ firearms in private hands. The Second Amendment right to keep and bear arms has no equivalent in the United Kingdom, nor in most of Europe. They never had the sorts of numbers of privately-owned firearms we do. About the only exception of which I'm aware is Switzerland which, to my recollection, has very high individual gun possession and very low firearms violence. In any case, we're starting in 21st Century America, not from a clean slate.

Your attempt at the anti-slavery analogy is even more strained and inappropriate. The 13th Amendment did not result in more slavery. In contrast, there is rather scant evidence that enactment of gun restriction legislation within the contemporary United States -- or any other society with a similar proliferation of gun ownership -- would result in lower gun violence. Indeed, the Mexican experience suggests otherwise.

John
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Dec 26, 2012 - 02:19pm PT
Working within constitutional, legal, and financial constraints, a reasonable solution might be something like the following:

1. Legalize marijuana and any similar 'soft' drugs, tax the crap out of it and the fools who use it, use that money for worthwhile purposes. May increase public respect for laws having some rational basis, plus undercuts gangs and others, reduces "crime" and prison costs.

2. Federal prohibition on importing and owning automatic, semi-automatic and assault weapons, and similar. Exceptions based on proven need. Buy back/permanent disabling program for existing weapons, with amnesty period.

3. Federal regulations controlling all manufacture, purchase, sale, and ownership of non-prohibited weapons, e.g. rifles, shotguns, handguns. Setting clear requirements, e.g. that all weapons be registered, safely stored (locks), purchasers go through waiting periods and background checks, and no consumer-consumer ('gun show') sales. Regulations clear, but largely state-administered, with BATF oversight to ensure fair play.

4. Immediate induction into the military of all those who want to own automatic, semi-automatic and assault weapons. Either that, or send them to re-education camps. (OK, I'm joking about this one. Sort of.)

5. Appropriate transitional measures, e.g. ensuring that the new laws are immediately challenged in the courts, and upheld by the supreme court, so finally putting to rest the more extreme fantasies about the second amendment. Even the most constitution-distorting version of "states' rights" and "strict constructionism" will allow reasonable regulation of firearms.

The result would be like the health care reforms that were upheld last summer. It'd take 5 - 10 years to fully implement, is really only a partial solution, but at least represents some progress.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 26, 2012 - 02:24pm PT
Although all it will really take is one group of armed insurrectionists, holed up in their compound, vs. one Apache helicopter, broadcast on the news, and the whole delusional, adolescent Gun Nut movement will start rapidly disintegrating

That must explain why our government hasn't rolled armor on civilians in the 2 decades since Waco,..
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Dec 26, 2012 - 02:26pm PT
jghedge writes:

"And of course it will take a while to get rid of all of them, but a lot of idiots like yourself will die in firefights trying to hold onto them, so we'll be ridding society of 2 problems at once"



You're suggesting the government conduct a shooting war vs it's own citizenry, and then you wonder why nobody is hopping aboard any of your asinine ideas.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Dec 26, 2012 - 02:27pm PT
Thanks for injecting some thought into the debate, Anders. I wonder, though, what the effect would be of the bans and controls you propose. I doubt that criminals who use illegal firearms would turn theirs in, but I think this proposal would likely lower the incidence of the sorts of attacks perpetrated at Sandy Hook, because the potential mass killers would need to work harder to get their weapons. The unanswered question is whether the full-time violent (as opposed to the one-time violent) would be more formidable with a less well-armed civilian population.

John
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Dec 26, 2012 - 02:37pm PT
And of course it will take a while to get rid of all of them, but a lot of idiots like yourself will die in firefights trying to hold onto them, so we'll be ridding society of 2 problems at once

Although all it will really take is one group of armed insurrectionists, holed up in their compound, vs. one Apache helicopter, broadcast on the news, and the whole delusional, adolescent Gun Nut movement will start rapidly disintegrating


Hedge, not to be rude but you seem to be the only one here who's obsessed with firearms and violence. Penises it would seem too.

And there you go again with what seem like disturbing wishes of fictional armed insurrectionists being slaughtered on TV. Are you on meds?

What you should try to realize, is that 99.999999% of legal gun owners/enthusiasts out there are responsible, sane, and not the least bit thinking about killing or harming anyone. The statistics prove that out. I know that's hard for you to accept.

Laws are at best a blunt instrument for herding the willing sheep. They have never, and will never, change the evil intent of men.
kennyt

climber
Woodfords,California
Dec 26, 2012 - 02:38pm PT
Joker Vilian,I'm afraid I can just see the difference between regulating assault rifles as compared to a business.Thanks'for your opinion. Oh don't worry the sores should clearup in a few days. EDIT: Correct spelling is Hypocrisy
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Dec 26, 2012 - 02:45pm PT
Well, JE, there does seem a need for more education. For example, that the rate of violent/firearm crime in the US (and Canada) has steadily and significantly dropped over the last 30 years - with exceptions, of course. There's no doubt about it, although there is debate as to the reasons. Also, beliefs that ownership of more/bigger weapons will actually protect a member of the general public, without significant, regular training and considerable luck. As pointed out elsewhere, the likelihood that even a trained, prepared person with a handgun is going to slow down let alone stop someone with an assault rifle is pretty small - if nothing else, an assault rifle is much more accurate at a distance.

You're probably right - it'd take longer for tighter laws to affect ownership by serious criminals of prohibited weapons, than for the public as a whole. (Not that career criminals usually indulge in mass murder of innocents...) Either way, they won't care, and in any case really only the police have the equipment and skills to take care of them. Serious criminals usually don't prey directly on the general public anyway.

If it simply reduces the number of repeated grotesque mass murders, that'd be a good start. You have to start somewhere.
eeyonkee

Trad climber
Golden, CO
Dec 26, 2012 - 02:52pm PT
Well said, MH.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Dec 26, 2012 - 03:15pm PT
jghedge writes:

"Wouldn't something have to be organized before it could be regulated?"


Who is to do the regulating?
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Dec 26, 2012 - 03:28pm PT
Parenting and family units have never never been more healthy or more strong.
All that stuff you wrote is delusion.

Two generations ago most fathers were spending their nights in the bar and beating their kids either verbally or physically.
What you write is not backed up by anecdotal or statistical data.
A bad dad is the exception these days and not the rule.

That's a surprising observation to me, Riley. What I've seen here in the poverty capital of California is that there are fewer dads around, period. I'd love to see statistics that show if or how the family unit has changed since, say, the end of World War II. I'm hoping you, or another reader, can point me to them.

Thanks.

john
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Dec 26, 2012 - 03:31pm PT
Riley,

Obviously there have always been violent people and that will never change. You need to seperate those people's violent tendencies from whatever tools they choose to harm people with. Such a person is a threat no matter what.

If firearms did indeed 'cause' people to become violent you'd be staring at a statistical vertical wall over the past few years. That hasn't happened, in fact, it's declined.

I agree that the recent crop of first-person shoot 'em ups can't be good for small kids and young adolescents. I didn't play these until my early 30's and was amazed at the level of detail and life-like graphics. Pretending to be sneaking up behind people and shooting them in the head or slicing their necks can't be a good thing for a developing mind. I could certainly see something like this contributing to future aggression and violence.

I still think the recent bumper crop of mass-random killings/stabbings/etc is the cusp of something very different. These are psychotic breaks where the killer generally kills themselves. We already have absolute proof that other drugs can cause such psychotic rage. There's no reason to suspect the possibility otherwise with the latest multi-billion dollar bumper crop of head 'medications'.

Why is it we've seen no lists of everything these killers was taking?

What's the first question you ask when someone gets on the highway going the wrong way and kills a bunch of people? "What brand of car was it? How big was his car?".

And the NRA does not speak for anyone but the NRA... their response was predictable, albeit stupid.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Dec 26, 2012 - 03:45pm PT
Top 10 myths about mass shootings



Even before the death toll in last Friday’s school massacre in Newtown, Conn., was determined, politicians, pundits, and professors of varied disciplines were all over the news, pushing their proposals for change. Some talked about the role of guns, others about mental-health services, and still more about the need for better security in schools and other public places. Whatever their agenda and the passion behind it, those advocates made certain explicit or implied assumptions about patterns in mass murder and the profile of the assailants. Unfortunately, those assumptions do not always align with the facts.


Myth: Mass shootings are on the rise.
Reality: Over the past three decades, there has been an average of 20 mass shootings a year in the United States, each with at least four victims killed by gunfire. Occasionally, and mostly by sheer coincidence, several episodes have been clustered closely in time. Over all, however, there has not been an upward trajectory. To the contrary, the real growth has been in the style and pervasiveness of news-media coverage, thanks in large part to technological advances in reporting.

Myth: Mass murderers snap and kill indiscriminately.
Reality: Mass murderers typically plan their assaults for days, weeks, or months. They are deliberate in preparing their missions and determined to follow through, no matter what impediments are placed in their path.

Myth: Enhanced background checks will keep dangerous weapons out of the hands of these madmen.
Reality: Most mass murderers do not have criminal records or a history of psychiatric hospitalization. They would not be disqualified from purchasing their weapons legally. Certainly, people cannot be denied their Second Amendment rights just because they look strange or act in an odd manner. Besides, mass killers could always find an alternative way of securing the needed weaponry, even if they had to steal from family members or friends.

Myth: Restoring the federal ban on assault weapons will prevent these horrible crimes.
Reality: The overwhelming majority of mass murderers use firearms that would not be restricted by an assault-weapons ban. In fact, semiautomatic handguns are far more prevalent in mass shootings. Of course, limiting the size of ammunition clips would at least force a gunman to pause to reload or switch weapons.

Myth: Greater attention and response to the telltale warning signs will allow us to identify would-be mass killers before they act.
Reality: While there are some common features in the profile of a mass murderer (depression, resentment, social isolation, tendency to blame others for their misfortunes, fascination with violence, and interest in weaponry), those characteristics are all fairly prevalent in the general population. Any attempt to predict would produce many false positives. Actually, the telltale warning signs come into clear focus only after the deadly deed.

Myth: Widening the availability of mental-health services and reducing the stigma associated with mental illness will allow unstable individuals to get the treatment they need.
Reality: With their tendency to externalize blame and see themselves as victims of mistreatment, mass murderers perceive the problem to be in others, not themselves. They would generally resist attempts to encourage them to seek help. And, besides, our constant references to mass murderers as “wackos” or “sickos” don’t do much to destigmatize the mentally ill.

Myth: Increasing security in schools and other places will deter mass murder.
Reality: Most security measures will serve only as a minor inconvenience for those who are dead set on mass murder. If anything, excessive security and a fortress-like environment serve as a constant reminder of danger and vulnerability.

Myth: Students need to be prepared for the worst by participating in lockdown drills.
Reality: Lockdown drills can be very traumatizing, especially for young children. Also, it is questionable whether they would recall those lessons amid the hysteria associated with an actual shooting. The faculty and staff need to be adequately trained, and the kids just advised to listen to instructions. Schools should take the same low-key approach to the unlikely event of a shooting as the airlines do to the unlikely event of a crash. Passengers aren’t drilled in evacuation procedures but can assume the crew is sufficiently trained.

Myth: Expanding “right to carry” provisions will deter mass killers or at least stop them in their tracks and reduce the body counts.
Reality: Mass killers are often described by surviving witnesses as being relaxed and calm during their rampages, owing to their level of planning. In contrast, the rest of us are taken by surprise and respond frantically. A sudden and wild shootout involving the assailant and citizens armed with concealed weapons would potentially catch countless innocent victims in the crossfire.

Myth: We just need to enforce existing gun laws as well as increase the threat of the death penalty.
Reality: Mass killers typically expect to die, usually by their own hand or else by first responders. Nothing in the way of prosecution or punishment would divert them from their missions. They are ready to leave their miserable existence, but want some payback first.


In the immediate aftermath of the Newtown school shootings, there seems to be great momentum to establish policies and procedures designed to make us all safer. Sensible gun laws, affordable mental-health care, and reasonable security measures are all worthwhile, and would enhance the well being of millions of Americans. They may do much to impact the level of violent crime that plagues our nation daily. We shouldn’t, however, expect such efforts to take a big bite out of crime in its most extreme form. Of course, a nibble or two from the prevalence of mass murder would be reason enough. And efforts to promote real change in our social policies would be a fitting legacy to the tragedy in Newtown.

http://boston.com/community/blogs/crime_punishment/2012/12/top_10_myths_about_mass_shooti.html
Note: A version of this blog post appeared in the Chronicle of Higher Education.
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Dec 26, 2012 - 04:43pm PT
Hire Ninja females this should work


But for 30 round magazines being banned what about these babies. What is stopping these from being used.


10b4me

Boulder climber
Somewhere on 395
Dec 26, 2012 - 04:46pm PT
Joe, do you suffer from OCD?
you need to remind us how much you "liked" Michael Reardon.

Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Dec 26, 2012 - 05:03pm PT
Aren't most schools with on-site security/police, and secured entrances and inspections, high schools, many of them in inner cities, where the main safety problem is students bringing in weapons?
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Dec 26, 2012 - 05:06pm PT
Norton, the section in your post doesnt indicate that crime in general has gone down where CCW laws are in effect. It only speaks of mass killings.

Ron, statistics are clear that violent crime has decreased since the early 90s EVERYWHERE. CCW or not, it's declined. Guns or not, it's declined. Can't pin that on CCW at all. Sorry.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Dec 26, 2012 - 05:26pm PT
With six out of a thousand of Junhinged's posts being climbing related and the last 280 gun related,I think we hve a replacement for Rox and wolves in the OCD department.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 26, 2012 - 05:31pm PT
Wow, managed to beat the blizzard back from St. George, where I scored another 75rd AK drum at the pawnshop.

Looks like everybody is still "vocalizing" and nobody listening.

I'm glad that Anders lives north of the border where some of the sheep are scared and the rest walk on 2 legs.
happiegrrrl

Trad climber
www.climbaddictdesigns.com
Dec 26, 2012 - 05:37pm PT
...statistics are clear that violent crime has decreased since the early 90s EVERYWHERE.

Crimpie- I recall it being in the news several years ago that the NYC police had been manipulating police reports to create stats which showed a favorable picture. A quick search brought this as top link: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/29/nyregion/new-york-police-department-manipulates-crime-reports-study-finds.html?_r=0

From your vantage point, do you feel this could be/have been a more widespread phenomenon(meaning a general practice in other precincts? Or do you feel it would be too difficult to manipulate reports which included firearms?
steveA

Trad climber
bedford,massachusetts
Dec 26, 2012 - 05:41pm PT
I was in a local gym today working out next to a county Sheriff.

We got on this subject and he mentioned that ALL the gun stores, he knew of in the area had sold out of just about any firearm except the 22 caliber variety.

Seems to be a run on guns. Hum?
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Dec 26, 2012 - 05:42pm PT
Crimpie- I recall it being in the news several years ago that the NYC police had been manipulating police reports to create stats which showed a favorable picture.

In a similar vein, LA City fire just got caught manipulating response time data a few months ago.

It probably happens a lot more often with govt stats of all sorts than anyone would suspect.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 26, 2012 - 05:48pm PT
Steve I think he meant box feed semi autos.

Plenty of riot guns and levers and bolts not moving.
But the .22s are selling and there is very little .22 ammo to be found anywhere (except my basement).
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Dec 26, 2012 - 05:48pm PT
It probably happens a lot more often with govt stats of all sorts than anyone would suspect.

You mean like with the unemployment #'s??

Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Dec 26, 2012 - 05:53pm PT
Crimpie, are there not states or cities, counties etc that saw a noticeable reduction in crime just after enacting CCW laws.?

Ron: A difficulty in research is determining what came first - the law or the crime rate. How long a lag will it take for a law to work? That is the real problem. For any study that says CCW mattered, there is a study that shows that crime was going down before CCW was implemented. It's not easy to study. And even if you showed that CCW mattered, how to explain all the other places that did not implement that law and their crime fell too?

Crime has plummeted since the early 90s (with the exception of the last year when it went up again). That is all over. That is a fact.

And how Ron, could one explain the increase in crime the last year - I don't think CCW laws have been going away have they?

Happie - one could manipulate data for sure and it has happened. This is one of the reasons that we have multiple sources of data. One, the NCVS, is not subject to manipulation by police since the data do not come from police. The NCVS and FBI data both show that crime has plummeted except for the last year.

When police manipulate the numbers, they tend to get caught. There are people out there who make a living working with these data. Some funny movement in the data will get very close examination. And this has resulted in places getting busted doing just that. While it can happen, and it has happened, it would have to be widespread - really widespread - to change things a lot.
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Dec 26, 2012 - 05:55pm PT
Let's see 30 round magazines banned but can use these to create two 20's so you get 40 rounds to shoot.




Those that still have 30 round clips can shoot 60.

Keeps going and going with no end in sight.

Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Dec 26, 2012 - 05:56pm PT
http://www.uwplatt.edu/~wiegmake/Intro_Files/CJ%20-%20paper%20example.pdf


federal level study^^^^^^^^^^

Ron - the link takes me to a 7 page student's research paper. That does not count as a study.


edit: their references:

Cleary, J. & Shapiro, E. (1999). The Effects of “Shall-Issue” Concealed-Carry Licensing Laws: A Literature Review. Information Brief - Minnesota House of Representatives Research Department. Retrieved from http://www.house.leg.state.mn.us/hrd/pubs/concarry.pdf.


Donohue, J., & Ayres, I. (2003). Shooting Down the More Guns, Less Crime Hypothesis. UC Berkeley: Center for the Study of Law and Society Jurisprudence and Social Policy Program. Retrieved from http://www.escholarship.org/uc/item/6v35j6tp.

Kovandzic, T., Marvell, T., & Vieraitis, L. (2005). The Impact of "Shall-Issue" Concealed Handgun Laws on Violent Crime Rates: Evidence From Panel Data for Large Urban Cities. Homicide Studies, 9(4), 292-323. doi:10.1177/1088767905279972. Retrieved from http://hsx.sagepub.com/cgi/reprint/9/4/292.

National Rifle Association of America, Institute for Legislative Action. (2009). [Map illustration of Right to Carry Laws in the United States]. Right to Carry Laws. Retrieved from http://www.nraila.org/images/rtcmaplg.jpg.

Rosengart, M., Cummings, P., Nathens, A., Heagerty, P., Maier, R., and
Rivara, F. (2005). An evaluation of state firearm regulations and homicide and suicide death rates. Injury Prevention 2005;11:77–83. doi: 10.1136/ip.2004.007062. Retrieved from
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1730198/pdf/v011p00077.pdf/?tool=pmcentrez
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Dec 26, 2012 - 06:00pm PT
I just copy/pasted the references from that paper. One is a reference shooting down 'more guns less crime'. One is referencing where they got the map from. One is from Homicide studies about large urban areas (will look at it in a second).

The fact is that there is no consensus among people who study this that CCW made crime fall. None.

Does it matter though? Does it change how you feel about CCW? Doubt it and doubt others carry or not because they are being guided by empirical research.
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Dec 26, 2012 - 06:01pm PT
From the last source cited in that paper (Rosengart, M., Cummings, P., Nathens, A., Heagerty, P., Maier, R., and Rivara, F. (2005). An evaluation of state firearm regulations and homicide and suicide death rates. Injury Prevention 2005;11:77–83. doi: 10.1136/ip.2004.007062. Retrieved from
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1730198/pdf/v011p00077.pdf/?tool=pmcentrez);:

Objective: To determine if any of five different state gun laws were associated with firearm mortality: (1) ‘‘shall issue’’ laws permitting an individual to carry a concealed weapon unless restricted by another statute; (2) a minimum age of 21 years for handgun purchase; (3) a minimum age of 21 years for private handgun possession; (4) one gun a month laws which restrict handgun purchase frequency; and (5) junk gun laws which ban the sale of certain cheaply constructed handguns.

Design: A cross sectional time series study of firearm mortality from 1979 to 1998.
Setting: All 50 states and the District of Columbia.

Subjects: All residents of the United States. Main outcome measures: Firearm homicides, all homicides, firearm suicides, and all suicides.
Results: When a ‘‘shall issue’’ law was present, the rate of firearm homicides was greater, RR 1.11 (95% confidence interval 0.99 to 1.24), than when the law was not present, as was the rate of all homicides, RR
1.08 (95% CI 0.98 to 1.17), although this was not statistically significant. **No law was associated with a
statistically significant decrease in the rates of firearm homicides or total homicides. No law was associated with a statistically significant change in firearm suicide rates.**

Conclusion: A ‘‘shall issue’’ law that eliminates most restrictions on carrying a concealed weapon may be associated with increased firearm homicide rates. No law was associated with a statistically significant
reduction in firearm homicide or suicide rate.
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Dec 26, 2012 - 06:04pm PT
from the Homicide Studies piece - the abstract:

What happens when states ease access to permits to carry concealed handguns in public
places? Supporters maintain the laws can reduce violent crime rates by raising the
expected costs of crime, because of criminals anticipating greater risks of injury and lower
rates of success completing their crimes. Opponents argue that the laws are likely to
increase violent crime, especially homicide, as heated disputes involving permit holders
are more likely to turn deadly because of the greater lethality of firearms. This study uses
panel data for all U.S. cities with a 1990 population of at least 100,000 for 1980 to 2000 to
examine the impact of “shall-issue” concealed handgun laws on violent crime rates. The
authors measure the effects of the laws using a time-trend variable for the number of years
after the law has been in effect, as opposed to the dummy variable approach used in prior
research. They also address many of the methodological problems encountered in previous
studies. **The results provide no evidence that the laws reduce or increase rates of violent
crime.**
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 26, 2012 - 06:15pm PT
No need to "roll armor", anyway - all it'll take is one armed compound against one Apache

Yeah, why use rolling armor when you can use something more expensive and more vulnerable?
But then you would expect jgjudge to use the wrong tool for the job if he thinks sporting arms make good self defense weapons.
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Dec 26, 2012 - 06:15pm PT
I was just working off the paper you cited Ron. Happy to see other cites of research that found differently.

many if not all with an agenda,

That is absolutely true of unethical researchers. But it is not true of most researchers as they are ethical. So when people say this, they are painting researchers with the insult of being unethical. In my own case, I can assure you the only agenda I have is to try to find the truth.
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Dec 26, 2012 - 06:17pm PT
Ron - the personal life study is your own life right? I was going back looking for that cite since I'd missed it. But I think I see what you are saying now.

:)
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Dec 26, 2012 - 06:23pm PT
Cracked me up Ron. I seriously was looking for it! Haha.

BTW, you will also see that the research you posted did not find that CCW increased crime as some argue. No effect.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 26, 2012 - 06:27pm PT
Unless I deploy my home made stingers.

I have the plans already, fin servos connected to infra red sensors, homemade C4 shaped charge warhead.
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Dec 26, 2012 - 06:36pm PT
Research isn't really looked at that way. Number 1 - we cannot "prove" anything. We can only offer support, or fail to find support for stuff. Number 2 - no study is perfect. No data are perfect, no measurement is perfect, no definition is perfect. But, some are less perfect than others.

So researchers work very hard to devise the best definitions they can. They strive to measure very difficult to measure things as precisely as possible. And the toil to gather the best data they can.

Then they see what the results are and they interpret the results with an eye to the limitations of the study (all studies have limitations).

And others replicate the research and try to make improvements to it. Over time a body of research is amassed. Now if that body of research indicates that x appears to be the case, one can have some confidence it likely is the case.

If a body of research offers lots of conflicting findings, then no general consensus is reached.

Given the body of research, I'd say (and most agree) that CCWs have no effect on crime rates. Still, that's not to say that CCWs are bad or should be taken away. It's just that in general, research does not offer evidence that they lower the crime rate. They may do other things well. But that is for research to explore.
jstan

climber
Dec 26, 2012 - 06:37pm PT
Unless I deploy my home made stingers.

Stingers are ineffective against vehicles armored with depleted uranium.
Entirely new weapons are used there. So to be sure of stopping intruders shielded behind DU,
you will need to upgrade.

And even there you will want to wait for Gen. III.
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Dec 26, 2012 - 06:46pm PT
Not exactly sure what you'd like to study. But if you posed a good research question, and there are data available (always a big if), I imagine there is research on it already. So seriously, if you can tell me what it is you are interested in, I'll put some article for you.

What about CCW holders would you want to learn?

Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Dec 26, 2012 - 07:10pm PT
Crimpie,,,How about how many have been directly involved in crime reduction - via self defense, defense of others, robbery attempts etc etc.

While I don't recall if they looked at CCW specifically, this is likely embedded in the Defensive Gun Use (DGU) literature. Very contentious literature with little agreement. I posted up thread (or maybe it was the other thread) about the inherent difficulties with this research. A lot of it centers around what constitutes DGU.

For example, does a case of DGU require a gun be fired?
or does it require someone it shot? and does that someone have to be a bad guy vs. a friend or relative mistakenly shot.
Does DGU count if you just tell someone to leave you alone or you'll shoot them?

Does it count if a police officers does it while working? Or a security guard? Or must it be a private citizen?

My dad for example will tell you that he engaged in DGU about 25 times a year. He keeps hearing noises outside, grabs his gun, and rushes out to confront the noise maker. He lives in a very rural area on 20 acres. To date, he's never seen a person during one of these events. But to him these are instances of DGU.

Was Zimmerman engaged in DGU? He followed someone he thought looked suspicious. He shot him and killed him. DGU or murder? Or both?

And what about CCW? How to define it. In Florida, some pepper spray requires a CCW permit. Must CCW be restricted only to gun? Or just handguns? Or any weapon?

The answer to those definitional issues will guide the counting of CCW DGU and influence findings.

My hunch is that the data used for the DGU research does not have CCW information in it. For instance, the NCVS is used for this research. I know there is no question asked about whether the person has a CCW. I know the FBI does not include that in their crime numbers. It would be up to some individual, on their own dime (the notion that researchers just get buckets of money to conduct research is pure fantasy) to gather these data. It would take years and be REALLY expensive. And then everyone would criticize it saying that no one would reveal if they really had a CCW or engaged in DGU anyway.

While it is possible to do this research, it would be very very costly. Anyone want to front me about 30 million to do this? I'm serious - fund me and I'll get the project done.

Let's pretend I conduct this study and I find that CCW lowered crime. What would your policy recommendation be? Would you then mandate that all people must carry?

And let's pretend I find that CCW raised crime. What policy recommendation would you propose? To get rid of CCW?

Who do you think would be a good funding agent for this work? Not the federal or state govts - they don't have the resources. It would need to be a private person or group. Who do you suggest?

Genuinely curious of your thoughts about this.

Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Dec 26, 2012 - 07:12pm PT
And to be clear...I'm enjoying this with Ron and I hope he is too. He taught me a lot on his taxidermy thread. I find this topic fascinating and much more complex that what first meets the eye - just like taxidermy.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 26, 2012 - 07:12pm PT
Anti gunners want to confiscate valuable property.

If they had the guts to put their money where their mouthes are they would simply buy guns off the market and destroy them rather than trying to make the current owners pay for their vision of utopia.
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Dec 26, 2012 - 07:21pm PT
Here is one of the cases of defensive gun use that some say the media never presents. Personally, I see a lot of them.This is in the Houston Chronicle tonight:

ABILENE, Texas (AP) — Abilene police say a 34-year-old man has been shot and killed by his estranged girlfriend after he barged into her home.

Police found Earnest Gonzales wounded early Wednesday in the front yard of the woman's home. He died later at a hospital.

Authorities say Gonzales tried to break in Christmas night but fled. He returned hours later, forced open the door and assaulted the woman. She managed to retrieve a handgun and fired once, hitting him in the left side. The woman's two children — 16-year-old and a newborn — were in the home at the time.

Police say the woman had legal possession of the handgun and the case would be referred to a grand jury. They also say no criminal charges are expected.
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Dec 26, 2012 - 07:31pm PT
Crimpie,, you mention variables i hadnt considered. Very interesting on how complex things get.

Research is fun. Even what appears to be 'easy' research can be very challenging.

By the way, I added a statement above - does DGU count if it is an officer or security guard doing it? Or must it be a 'private citizen' (and is an off duty officer a private citizen?

Isn't measurement fun!?!?!

Some do get private money to fund studies, but they are pretty uncommon sadly. Research money dried up years ago and while there has been a tiny bit of easing lately, it's still difficult. I don't even bother crafting a grant proposal. They take a ton of time and work and most don't get funded. Not an efficient use of time sadly.

As far as studies getting refuted - that's good! The idea is for people to look for the limitations (remember, there are always limitations) and to then make the next study better. So that's an example of science working.

But in NV, a ccw holder SHOULD be letting any officer in any situation know that he is indeed one, and MOST officers i know certainly ask that and it is required by law the ccw holder give them a copy of their permit. So there should be some form of stats on this- in reports at minimum no?

I have never seen on a police report or data where one records that the person is CCW. However, police reports come in all sorts of sizes and shapes. I do know they don't report it to the FBI if they have these data. Further, there is a lot of variation in what goes in a police report. For example, a friend of mine who was kidnapped, raped, then had her throat cut managed to live. Total miracle. (no she didn't have a gun and having one wouldn't have mattered as she was 8 at the time of these crimes). The offender told her not to worry because he was a police officer.

That is a crime of police impersonation. That did not get recorded in the police report. Makes one wonder what else isn't recorded!
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Dec 26, 2012 - 07:34pm PT
Anti gunners want to confiscate valuable property.

Gun nuts confiscate valuable property - lives.

As for 'experts' and 'professionals' - well, real professions have and use mechanisms to protect the public, such as high entry standards, compulsory, continuing education, and (most importantly) discipline if not dismissal for unprofessional conduct or incompetence. All carried on in public.
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Dec 26, 2012 - 07:37pm PT
edit: Crimpie,, there was some coverage of that Oregon Mall shooting that didnt even mention the CCW holder having a gun trained on the shooter. My Bro in AZ DIDNT get that detail on his coverage. I gave him the U tube interview of the guy..

I don't know why some don't report some stuff. I saw this in several places personally. But I also look at a ton of news web sites. What most also didn't report is the nut was firing in the air. Still, that a CCW guy was there is something I saw reported in several places.

You have to wonder how that would have turned out if Mr. Nut wasn't just shooting in the air but was shooting at people instead. Happily, we'll not know.
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Dec 26, 2012 - 07:43pm PT
...This is how adults converse and debate in online political forums.

...And of course it will take a while to get rid of all of them, but a lot of idiots like yourself will die in firefights trying to hold onto them, so we'll be ridding society of 2 problems at once

Although all it will really take is one group of armed insurrectionists, holed up in their compound, vs. one Apache helicopter, broadcast on the news, and the whole delusional, adolescent Gun Nut movement will start rapidly disintegrating

Looking forward to that very much!!!

Apaches can fire 600 rounds a minute from 2 miles away with pinpoint accuracy, according to the pilot in this History Channel documentary

And Hellfire missiles from 5 miles away - again, pinpoint accuracy

Can't wait for the inevitable "armed compound vs Apache" footage on the news

The gun industry will collapse overnight

Take a good look at that documentary - seems like it'll be a pretty good preview of the last thing you'll ever see

Hedge, posting that you are looking forward to a scenario where American citizens with small arms are slaughtered by gunships of the American military is bizarre. The fact that you seem to be gleefully excited by contemplating such an event is scary. You are without a doubt someone who should not have access to a firearm.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 26, 2012 - 07:44pm PT
"Gun nuts confiscate valuable property - lives."



Hyperbole as usual.

All gun owners???
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Dec 26, 2012 - 07:54pm PT
First it's gangs rampaging on the streets, next it's bad guys deep in the woods. Make up your mind, will you? Bearing in mind that the incidence of assault or murder more than a few hours from a road or habitation is probably just about 0, and that you're at far greater risk from lightning, incompetence, poor preparations and equipment, and even some wildlife. (But not wolves or bears.)
happiegrrrl

Trad climber
www.climbaddictdesigns.com
Dec 26, 2012 - 08:02pm PT
"Gun nuts confiscate valuable property - lives."

To which you responded:
Hyperbole as usual.

All gun owners???


But..... you originally posted:
Anti gunners want to confiscate valuable property.

All anti gunners, Ron???


Also - a gun owner need not be a gut nutter." And then there are gun nuts(people who like/collect guns) and gun NUTS!


The guy who was arrested firing shots into the water at Split Rock would not have been considered in any way to be a problem gun owner - until he took the action he did(firing a semi-automatic handgun into the rock ravine stream, and not noticing there was a person, a 5 year old actually, walking behind him at the time).

That guy had a CC permit,and even brandished it when I insisted he show ID, as if that made his action okay.

Turned out, he was a war vet(probably Viet Nam from his age) with an honorable discharge, and no prior arrests.

That guy was, I am pretty sure...a Gun Nutter!
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 26, 2012 - 08:04pm PT
Yer right Terri.
I should have said "Some".
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Dec 26, 2012 - 08:10pm PT
The great expert at killing said:

And Norton,, I was referencing the fact that i shot HUNDREDS of horses in 76/77 and became quite exact for the animals sake.. Bruce was talking about animals. thats all u need to know.


Ron, I don't give a damn how many horses you have killed.

Don't you understand that only a third grader would be impressed?

And don't decide for me "thats all u need to know"

I will decide, not the likes of you, what I need to know.

And you did not answer my question:

Have you ever killed anyone with a handgun?
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Dec 26, 2012 - 08:12pm PT
wonder why the FBI doesn't tally such a thing?

They don't tally it because it doesn't help in the purpose for which those data are collected. The FBI collects crime data for law enforcement purposes. If crime is going up or down, law enforcement can try to respond. If murders go up, they try to do things to respond.

But knowing if folks are CCW doesn't help them. In fact, I think CCW folks would be freaked if the FBI decided to collect it.
froodish

Social climber
Portland, Oregon
Dec 26, 2012 - 08:13pm PT
where LEOs returned fire with handguns against body armored drugged maniacs with full auto AKs and got the job DONE!

They didn't get the job done with their service handguns or shotguns - those proved completely ineffective. What got the job done was a combination of SWAT arriving and some officers commandeering higher power kit from a local gun store. A friend of mine was actually working at that gun store that day. The way he tells the tale, the store employees loaded the officers up with all the high power kit they had. I think he still carries the "get out of jail free" card they gifted him with when they later returned the arms.
kennyt

climber
Woodfords,California
Dec 26, 2012 - 08:13pm PT
Hey Joker, Just wanted to take the oppurtunity to tell you to f*#k off.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 26, 2012 - 08:14pm PT
I'm a climbing guide, but I waited more than 30 seconds.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 26, 2012 - 08:22pm PT
On the BD thread kennyt said;
Perhaps we have over regulated ourselves to death

and I called him a hypocrite.

His eloquent counter;
Hey Joker, Just wanted to take the oppurtunity to tell you to f*#k off


Impressive.
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Dec 26, 2012 - 08:26pm PT
Warning to Americans....and then they took the guns.....

Kitty Werthmann survived Hitler.

“What I am about to tell you is something you’ve probably never heard or read in history books,” she likes to tell audiences.

“I am a witness to history.

“I cannot tell you that Hitler took Austria by tanks and guns; it would distort history.

Adolph Hitler

“We voted him in.”

If you remember the plot of the Sound of Music, the Von Trapp family escaped over the Alps rather than submit to the Nazis. Kitty wasn’t so lucky. Her family chose to stay in her native Austria. She was 10 years old, but bright and aware. And she was watching.

“We elected him by a landslide – 98 percent of the vote,” she recalls.

She wasn’t old enough to vote in 1938 – approaching her 11th birthday. But she remembers.

“Everyone thinks that Hitler just rolled in with his tanks and took Austria by force.”

No so.


“In 1938, Austria was in deep Depression. Nearly one-third of our workforce was unemployed. We had 25 percent inflation and 25 percent bank loan interest rates.

Farmers and business people were declaring bankruptcy daily. Young people were going from house to house begging for food. Not that they didn’t want to work; there simply weren’t any jobs.

“My mother was a Christian woman and believed in helping people in need. Every day we cooked a big kettle of soup and baked bread to feed those poor, hungry people – about 30 daily.’

“We looked to our neighbor on the north, Germany, where Hitler had been in power since 1933.” she recalls. “We had been told that they didn’t have unemployment or crime, and they had a high standard of living.


“Nothing was ever said about persecution of any group – Jewish or otherwise. We were led to believe that everyone in Germany was happy. We wanted the same way of life in Austria. We were promised that a vote for Hitler would mean the end of unemployment and help for the family. Hitler also said that businesses would be assisted, and farmers would get their farms back.

“Ninety-eight percent of the population voted to annex Austria to Germany and have Hitler for our ruler.

“We were overjoyed,” remembers Kitty, “and for three days we danced in the streets and had candlelight parades. The new government opened up big field kitchens and everyone was fed.


“After the election, German officials were appointed, and like a miracle, we suddenly had law and order. Three or four weeks later, everyone was employed. The government made sure that a lot of work was created through the Public Work Service.

“Hitler decided we should have equal rights for women. Before this, it was a custom that married Austrian women did not work outside the home. An able-bodied husband would be looked down on if he couldn’t support his family. Many women in the teaching profession were elated that they could retain the jobs they previously had been required to give up for marriage.

“Then we lost religious education for kids


“Our education was nationalized. I attended a very good public school.. The population was predominantly Catholic, so we had religion in our schools. The day we elected Hitler (March 13, 1938), I walked into my schoolroom to find the crucifix replaced by Hitler’s picture hanging next to a Nazi flag. Our teacher, a very devout woman, stood up and told the class we wouldn’t pray or have religion anymore. Instead, we sang ‘Deutschland, Deutschland, Uber Alles,’ and had physical education.

“Sunday became National Youth Day with compulsory attendance. Parents were not pleased about the sudden change in curriculum. They were told that if they did not send us, they would receive a stiff letter of warning the first time. The second time they would be fined the equivalent of $300, and the third time they would be subject to jail.”

And then things got worse.

“The first two hours consisted of political indoctrination. The rest of the day we had sports. As time went along, we loved it. Oh, we had so much fun and got our sports equipment free.

“We would go home and gleefully tell our parents about the wonderful time we had.

“My mother was very unhappy,” remembers Kitty. “When the next term started, she took me out of public school and put me in a convent. I told her she couldn’t do that and she told me that someday when I grew up, I would be grateful. There was a very good curriculum, but hardly any fun – no sports, and no political indoctrination.

“I hated it at first but felt I could tolerate it. Every once in a while, on holidays, I went home. I would go back to my old friends and ask what was going on and what they were doing.


“Their loose lifestyle was very alarming to me. They lived without religion. By that time, unwed mothers were glorified for having a baby for Hitler.

“It seemed strange to me that our society changed so suddenly. As time went along, I realized what a great deed my mother did so that I wasn’t exposed to that kind of humanistic philosophy.

“Then food rationing began

“In 1939, the war started and a food bank was established. All food was rationed and could only be purchased using food stamps. At the same time, a full-employment law was passed which meant if you didn’t work, you didn’t get a ration card, and if you didn’t have a card, you starved to death.

“Women who stayed home to raise their families didn’t have any marketable skills and often had to take jobs more suited for men.

“Soon after this, the draft was implemented.


“It was compulsory for young people, male and female, to give one year to the labor corps,” remembers Kitty. “During the day, the girls worked on the farms, and at night they returned to their barracks for military training just like the boys.

“They were trained to be anti-aircraft gunners and participated in the signal corps. After the labor corps, they were not discharged but were used in the front lines.

“When I go back to Austria to visit my family and friends, most of these women are emotional cripples because they just were not equipped to handle the horrors of combat.

“Three months before I turned 18, I was severely injured in an air raid attack. I nearly had a leg amputated, so I was spared having to go into the labor corps and into military service.

“When the mothers had to go out into the work force, the government immediately established child care centers.

“You could take your children ages four weeks old to school age and leave them there around-the-clock, seven days a week, under the total care of the government.

“The state raised a whole generation of children. There were no motherly women to take care of the children, just people highly trained in child psychology. By this time, no one talked about equal rights. We knew we had been had.

“Before Hitler, we had very good medical care. Many American doctors trained at the University of Vienna..

“After Hitler, health care was socialized, free for everyone. Doctors were salaried by the government. The problem was, since it was free, the people were going to the doctors for everything.

“When the good doctor arrived at his office at 8 a.m., 40 people were already waiting and, at the same time, the hospitals were full.

“If you needed elective surgery, you had to wait a year or two for your turn. There was no money for research as it was poured into socialized medicine. Research at the medical schools literally stopped, so the best doctors left Austria and emigrated to other countries.

“As for healthcare, our tax rates went up to 80 percent of our income. Newlyweds immediately received a $1,000 loan from the government to establish a household. We had big programs for families.

“All day care and education were free. High schools were taken over by the government and college tuition was subsidized. Everyone was entitled to free handouts, such as food stamps, clothing, and housing.

“We had another agency designed to monitor business. My brother-in-law owned a restaurant that had square tables.

“ Government officials told him he had to replace them with round tables because people might bump themselves on the corners. Then they said he had to have additional bathroom facilities. It was just a small dairy business with a snack bar. He couldn’t meet all the demands.

“Soon, he went out of business. If the government owned the large businesses and not many small ones existed, it could be in control.

“We had consumer protection, too

“We were told how to shop and what to buy. Free enterprise was essentially abolished. We had a planning agency specially designed for farmers. The agents would go to the farms, count the live-stock, and then tell the farmers what to produce, and how to produce it.

“In 1944, I was a student teacher in a small village in the Alps. The villagers were surrounded by mountain passes which, in the winter, were closed off with snow, causing people to be isolated.

“So people intermarried and offspring were sometimes retarded. When I arrived, I was told there were 15 mentally retarded adults, but they were all useful and did good manual work.

“I knew one, named Vincent, very well. He was a janitor of the school. One day I looked out the window and saw Vincent and others getting into a van.

“I asked my superior where they were going. She said to an institution where the State Health Department would teach them a trade, and to read and write. The families were required to sign papers with a little clause that they could not visit for 6 months.

“They were told visits would interfere with the program and might cause homesickness.

“As time passed, letters started to dribble back saying these people died a natural, merciful death. The villagers were not fooled. We suspected what was happening. Those people left in excellent physical health and all died within 6 months. We called this euthanasia.

“Then they took our guns

“Next came gun registration. People were getting injured by guns. Hitler said that the real way to catch criminals (we still had a few) was by matching serial numbers on guns. Most citizens were law abiding and dutifully marched to the police station to register their firearms. Not long afterwards, the police said that it was best for everyone to turn in their guns. The authorities already knew who had them, so it was futile not to comply voluntarily.


“No more freedom of speech. Anyone who said something against the government was taken away. We knew many people who were arrested, not only Jews, but also priests and ministers who spoke up.

“Totalitarianism didn’t come quickly, it took 5 years from 1938 until 1943, to realize full dictatorship in Austria. Had it happened overnight, my countrymen would have fought to the last breath. Instead, we had creeping gradualism. Now, our only weapons were broom handles. The whole idea sounds almost unbelievable that the state, little by little eroded our freedom.”

“This is my eye-witness account.

“It’s true. Those of us who sailed past the Statue of Liberty came to a country of unbelievable freedom and opportunity.

“America is truly is the greatest country in the world.

“Don’t let freedom slip away.

“After America, there is no place to go.”
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 26, 2012 - 08:26pm PT
Silly me, I thought B Kay didn't count because he's a gym climber.
kennyt

climber
Woodfords,California
Dec 26, 2012 - 08:33pm PT
Joker, So if I think we over regulate business and under regulate assault weapons that makes me a hypocrite? It takes months to get a contractors license in nevada so I can legally work in that state and hours ( if that) to get an assault rifle you think that is not effed up?

"My eloquent counter" was five or six pages back

Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Dec 26, 2012 - 08:45pm PT
Not even Goodwin's law can end this thread.

Spittled on the computer screen. Thanks for the laugh!
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Dec 26, 2012 - 08:55pm PT
Deny that you and many of your ideological soul mates justify owning arsenals as "protection" against what you term "intrusive gov't"

Bottom line for me Joe, I trust you more than I trust politicians. The founders believed that power could be enforced via weapons, and they wanted to ensure that the check and balance would stay with citizens. The 2nd amendment is the root of the other amendments and power. So as weird as you sound on this thread, I'd trust you with weapons, and all thouse I know and love: more than only the government.

That's my take.

regards to all
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Dec 26, 2012 - 08:59pm PT
The founders believed that power could be enforced via weapons, and they wanted to ensure that the check and balance would stay with citizens.

Oh really? They didn't trust governments, but they didn't trust the people either. They were only too quick to put down rebellions with state force, such as Shay's Rebellion: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shays'_Rebellion
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Dec 26, 2012 - 09:01pm PT
Hedge, the thinking on this subject by all the gun owners I know is quite a bit more nuanced than the troglidite caricature you are putting forth.

So KSolem

Why is not only fantasizing about killing cops and federal agents, but owning the arsenal to do so, OK

But explaining what will end up happening not OK?

Who is fantasizing about killing anyone? Certainly not me. But you are, and you want your government to do it for you.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Dec 26, 2012 - 09:03pm PT
Why is not only fantasizing about killing cops and federal agents, but owning the arsenal to do so, OK

Hedge, if you're a troll... I salute you. T7+ at least.
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Dec 26, 2012 - 09:08pm PT
MH, Shays rebellion was put down by groups of citizen militias with their own arms, organized for the purpose by the Governor of Massachusetts. There was no standing army or the money to raise one...
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Dec 26, 2012 - 09:15pm PT
That's a logical conclusion?

I'm not following your logic.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Dec 26, 2012 - 09:19pm PT
Why would the cops come for my guns?

You've built your whole arguement on a foundation of sh#t. No wonder it's collapsed around you.
Gary

Social climber
Right outside of Delacroix
Dec 26, 2012 - 09:19pm PT
They didn't get the job done with their service handguns or shotguns - those proved completely ineffective. What got the job done was a combination of SWAT arriving and some officers commandeering higher power kit from a local gun store. A friend of mine was actually working at that gun store that day. The way he tells the tale, the store employees loaded the officers up with all the high power kit they had. I think he still carries the "get out of jail free" card they gifted him with when they later returned the arms.

The real point here, is that the actions of the NRA and the politicians who do their bidding result in the proliferation of these weapons and their availability to criminals. This was brought home pointedly by the North Hollywood bank robbery.

Is it any wonder that the police overreact and escalate the most mundane situation nowadays?

And many of the same people who support unfettered access to weapons of any sort are the same who use the escalation of force by the police as a justification for their need of high powered weaponry.

So it goes.
kennyt

climber
Woodfords,California
Dec 26, 2012 - 09:24pm PT
Impressive.
How doe's one begin to impress an individual who's big day involved battling a blizzard to get to a pawnshop to pickup a 75 round drum for their AK and apparently pulled it off?
kennyt

climber
Woodfords,California
Dec 26, 2012 - 09:28pm PT
Someone in that family must be so proud!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m64lIa7tRI0
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Dec 26, 2012 - 10:29pm PT
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Dec 26, 2012 - 11:03pm PT
Phillips or slotted?
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 26, 2012 - 11:14pm PT
Nice try kenny but most of my groceries come from George and I had a dental checkup.

Stopping by the pawnshop brought me up to speed on how much you gun haters are increasing my wealth.






TGT
great photo.
kennyt

climber
Woodfords,California
Dec 26, 2012 - 11:17pm PT
That might fly if you had any teeth to check on. Don't try to change yer story now Poindexter
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Dec 26, 2012 - 11:25pm PT
That's seriously sad when someone thinks he's wealthier because his guns and ammo are worth more and has to tell us about it. Better take advantage of the new dweeb gun boyz and sell at the peak.

Better report your new wealth to the credit union, you might be able to move up to a double-wide loan.
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Dec 27, 2012 - 12:06am PT
Just think how much guns and ammo will be worth when the 2nd amendment gets repealed and the guerrilla insurrection starts. Chaz will have to ride his donkeys into town to get his meager rations, but he'll be dreaming of how to cash in on that gold nugget of a gun he's got buried in the back yard.
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Dec 27, 2012 - 12:06am PT
I have friends who own so many damn guns that it is obviously an obsession. I pride myself as being a minimalist. I own less than ten. You really don't need any, but you can get by on one or two if you like to hunt. I have a bunch of guns, but basically use my very old 30.06, which is perfectly capable of shooting the head off of a squirrel or killing an elk. Ammo is everywhere and cheap. 5 round mag. On a year when I'm hunting I use one or two rounds per year. One for each deer. I only take easy shots.

Some of the gunheads insist on as many guns as possible, but I think they wouldn't buy as many if they got more pussy. Plain and simple. Guys don't need that stuff if they are getting pussy. You are also less likely to go postal if you get pussy.

I'll go so far as to say that men go to war and much of the world's problems are due to that very thing: pussy. If men got more tail, they wouldn't even think of shooting the fireman.

Seriously. Have any of you blinked awake with a snoozing naked woman next to you and thought, "Today's the day! I'm gonna go whack a bunch of people!"

No. You try to get a morning quicky, do a quick whore bath in the sink, nab yer clothes and head for work or go climbing or whatever. Then you seek each other out in the evening for a few more rounds.

Look at those Muslims. They are so messed up that thier peckers must be in a permanent erection. Not only do they not have porn, the preachers won't let the women do more than show their eyes, if that! Those bastards are horny and dejected. If they got laid more often, they would be mellow, like the French.

The Islamic countries are seriously messed up in the poon tang department. Just think about it. If they spent a few hours a day balls deep (Boo Yah!!!)the last thing they would be doing is contemplating how to get rid of the infidels.

I read somewhere that when they do the deed, it is basically bend her over, toss that Burka up a bit, go at it from behind, and are done in thirty seconds or so. Maybe that is why they need 80 wives. We get 80 times as much lovin' out of one woman compared to their 80. They literally go out of their way to make it the most unpleasant thing in the world. If you connect that with the horny mind of a 20 year old, you have the perfect soldier with absolutely nothing to live for.

I'm telling ya. Most of the world's problems and most of the great art is about this very topic: Miserable guys trying to get laid.

BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Dec 27, 2012 - 12:10am PT
It is all about poon tang.
kennyt

climber
Woodfords,California
Dec 27, 2012 - 12:10am PT
+1 for the get more pussy theory. you could get rid of the guns and the prozac.
kennyt

climber
Woodfords,California
Dec 27, 2012 - 12:13am PT
Ron, you may have a point.
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Dec 27, 2012 - 12:13am PT
Yep. I'm gonna flood this thread with the get more pussy theory.

Just think about it. Hell, religion leads to less pussy, so religion lends itself to more violence.

Get a horny girlfriend and save the world.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Dec 27, 2012 - 12:15am PT
"Just think about it. Hell, religion leads to less pussy"


Not necessarily true.

I know guys who attend[ed] church specifically to meet women. They do better there than most guys do in bars.
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Dec 27, 2012 - 12:23am PT
Works for me. I got pussy 24/7 and have no problems with guns. :)
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 27, 2012 - 12:24am PT
You know, I'm getting a lot of chuck for the buck needling the anti gunners once or twice a day into demonstrating just how immature, petulant and hateful they are, but I take my hat off to Twisted Crank who pulled off a spectacular fire & forget troll with this thread.

It was like shooting a single bottle rocket a hundred meters into a fireworks store and watching the whole place go up.
kennyt

climber
Woodfords,California
Dec 27, 2012 - 12:25am PT
Crimpergirl for the win.
kennyt

climber
Woodfords,California
Dec 27, 2012 - 12:29am PT
[ I'm always in trouble!
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Dec 27, 2012 - 12:45am PT
Works for me. I got pussy 24/7 and have no problems with guns. :)

See? It's easy. The solution to the whole gun thing is to make M-to-F surgery available free of charge.
10b4me

Boulder climber
Somewhere on 395
Dec 27, 2012 - 01:00am PT
Pretty much sums up the whole wingnut vs reality scenario

pot calling the kettle black, joe

get over it. go out and climb, oh wait. . . . . . .
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Dec 27, 2012 - 01:01am PT
Check out a Marine supporting my poon tang theory. It pops up at about 90 seconds in.

"Lack of pussy is the root of all global instability."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4y_mXLYh_PA
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Dec 27, 2012 - 01:02am PT
you may want to move up on your schedule a bit there ghost

Dude, when I moved to the big city back in '73 I gave all my guns away to a friend. It was almost 20 years later that I went to Germany for the M-to-F surgery. Not gun-related at all in my case.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Dec 27, 2012 - 01:04am PT
Yep. I'm gonna flood this thread with the get more pussy theory.

Just think about it. Hell, religion leads to less pussy, so religion lends itself to more violence.

Get a horny girlfriend and save the world.

Either pussy or those psychedelic ponies that killed off the other thread....
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Dec 27, 2012 - 01:53am PT
Wow Hedge you really have a thing about penis size.

In keeping with your criticisms of Ron, perhaps you should provide us with a link to a peer reviewed study which proves that men who support the right to responsible gun ownership actually have smaller penises??

I don't want to see some study which shows that a man could compensate for being deprived that way by liking guns, guys do lots of things to compensate for being unlucky in that way (buying Corvettes etc.,) I want to see real evidence which supports the broad generalizations you have been laying out here.

I won't hold my breath...
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Dec 27, 2012 - 09:17am PT
I am not worried about the govt takeing my freedom. I got my guns to protect my freedom from the teabaggers.
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Dec 27, 2012 - 09:34am PT
Joe said:
"I have no idea what that last sentence means - arsenals trump free speech, voting, and all the rest of the constitution?"



You should just re-read it, but I'll restate the point and talk slow for you. The clear point is I believe that the 2nd amendment is there to protect citizens from tyrany from the overlord class (making a joke and a point here with the word overlord). If you do some research you will find that subject hotly debated at the time, more than we can discuss here with a few quips and words. Here's Jefferson for example.
"When the people fear their government there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty. The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government. – Thomas Jefferson"

I agree: The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Dec 27, 2012 - 09:57am PT
or a similar sediment:
“Firearms are second only to the Constitution in importance; they are the peoples’ liberty’s teeth.” – George Washington


So continue on with the "WHATS THAT MEAN WHAT THAT MEAN"....theme questioning the founders, or similar points....but hopefully there is something to quietly consider for you and others.
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Dec 27, 2012 - 11:09am PT
I don't get it. Liberals think we'll never need to use guns.

... So why have them?



Why do cops have them?
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Dec 27, 2012 - 11:26am PT
We're talking Arsenal? I'm sooo pissed off that they traded Van Persie to Man U.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Dec 27, 2012 - 11:28am PT
The constitution authorizes an army and navy, no mention of an air force. Scalia should declare the air force unconstitutional under strict construction. He is only a strict constructionist when it is convenient for his agenda
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Dec 27, 2012 - 12:04pm PT
Very true Bruce... very true.

Unfortunately the corporate-government cancer seems to be in its final stages. When it all does fall apart, we'll see how absolutely meaningless all those slips of green paper are. The ones most of us worked all our lives for. For people without real skills, that's going to be a problem

Being well armed is just a tiny part of being prepared. A very tiny part.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Dec 27, 2012 - 12:20pm PT
I don't agree with everything Ron Paul believes, but he seems to be an honest and sincere actual human being, unlike the recent crop of puppets we had in the elections.

From Ron:

The senseless and horrific killings last week in Newtown, Connecticut reminded us that a determined individual or group of individuals can cause great harm no matter what laws are in place. Connecticut already has restrictive gun laws relative to other states, including restrictions on fully automatic, so-called “assault” rifles and gun-free zones.

Predictably, the political left responded to the tragedy with emotional calls for increased gun control. This is understandable, but misguided. The impulse to have government “do something” to protect us in the wake national tragedies is reflexive and often well intentioned. Many Americans believe that if we simply pass the right laws, future horrors like the Sandy Hook Elementary shooting can be prevented. But this impulse ignores the self evident truth that criminals don’t obey laws.

The political right, unfortunately, has fallen into the same trap in its calls for quick legislative solutions to gun violence. If only we put armed police or armed teachers in schools, we’re told, would-be school shooters will be dissuaded or stopped.

While I certainly agree that more guns equals less crime and that private gun ownership prevents many shootings, I don’t agree that conservatives and libertarians should view government legislation, especially at the federal level, as the solution to violence. Real change can happen only when we commit ourselves to rebuilding civil society in America, meaning a society based on family, religion, civic and social institutions, and peaceful cooperation through markets. We cannot reverse decades of moral and intellectual decline by snapping our fingers and passing laws.

Let’s not forget that our own government policies often undermine civil society, cheapen life, and encourage immorality. The president and other government officials denounce school violence, yet still advocate for endless undeclared wars abroad and easy abortion at home. U.S. drone strikes kill thousands, but nobody in America holds vigils or devotes much news coverage to those victims, many of which are children, albeit, of a different color.

Obviously I don’t want to conflate complex issues of foreign policy and war with the Sandy Hook shooting, but it is important to make the broader point that our federal government has zero moral authority to legislate against violence.

Furthermore, do we really want to live in a world of police checkpoints, surveillance cameras, metal detectors, X-ray scanners, and warrantless physical searches? We see this culture in our airports: witness the shabby spectacle of once proud, happy Americans shuffling through long lines while uniformed TSA agents bark orders. This is the world of government provided “security,” a world far too many Americans now seem to accept or even endorse. School shootings, no matter how horrific, do not justify creating an Orwellian surveillance state in America.

Do we really believe government can provide total security? Do we want to involuntarily commit every disaffected, disturbed, or alienated person who fantasizes about violence? Or can we accept that liberty is more important than the illusion of state-provided security? Government cannot create a world without risks, nor would we really wish to live in such a fictional place. Only a totalitarian society would even claim absolute safety as a worthy ideal, because it would require total state control over its citizens’ lives. We shouldn’t settle for substituting one type of violence for another. Government role is to protect liberty, not to pursue unobtainable safety.

Our freedoms as Americans preceded gun control laws, the TSA, or the Department of Homeland Security. Freedom is defined by the ability of citizens to live without government interference, not by safety. It is easy to clamor for government security when terrible things happen; but liberty is given true meaning when we support it without exception, and we will be safer for it.

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 27, 2012 - 12:49pm PT
Norton;




Real change can happen only when we commit ourselves to rebuilding civil society in America, meaning a society based on family, religion, civic and social institutions, and peaceful cooperation through markets. We cannot reverse decades of moral and intellectual decline by snapping our fingers and passing laws.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Dec 27, 2012 - 12:53pm PT
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Dec 27, 2012 - 12:58pm PT
Hehe,

I'm printing that one out Philo...

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 27, 2012 - 01:25pm PT
Could it be that you don't know what "civil" means?
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Dec 27, 2012 - 01:46pm PT
For random mass killings the logical steps to take would be to take an exhaustive look at the killers' backgrounds and families and find common threads. Hipaa laws should be suspended for the killers. Every Dr. visit, every pharmacy script, detailed blood screening.

We already know there are substances that can absolutely induce psychosis and violent rage episodes. Why isn't that being followed up in any media outlet?

Because every mainstream media outlet relies heavily on pharma advertising. Because there is no real investigative journalism any longer on any topic. It's all about quick sound bites and playing people's emotions on devisive issues rather than getting real answers to problems.

So let's just exploit this tradgedy. Let's pass wide sweeping laws that just divide this deeply fractured society even farther.

We shouldn't look to our bloated morally and fiscaly bankrupt federal government or the NRA or to any other cancerous organization for solutions to our own problems.
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Dec 27, 2012 - 02:04pm PT
You guys....

You sit and whine about the 2nd amendment and a tyrannical government, while every keystroke we type, everywhere we go, everything we buy with plastic, everything you say on a cellphone, all are currently being gathered and stored thanks in large part due to the Patriot Act.

No way is there going to be a round up of millions of guns.

That info is the perfect tool if a tyrannical government popped up.

And nobody cares but the Electronic Frontiers Foundation and maybe the ACLU.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Dec 27, 2012 - 02:26pm PT
Question for Crimpie:

The Wall Street Journal had an opinion piece today alleging that handgun murder rates in Great Britain doubled after Great Britain enacted handgun controls. Any truth to that?

Also, your comments about the complexity of determining cause and effect in law enforcement/crime interactions sound like it involves many of the same multicollinearity problems I encounter in econometric models. It also brings to mind a study one of my colleagues in grad school undertook to try to determine the optimal crime rate. The idea was to estimate marginal cost of crime, and the marginal rate of crime prevention from additional law enforcement expenditures.

His efforts didn't get very far because he could not establish a statistically significant causal relationship between law enforcement expenditures and crime reduction. Causation in the reverse direction, i.e. that an increase in crime results in increased law enforcement expenditures, was statistically significant. I'm sure there have been many such studies since 1976, when he started his, and I'd be curious about the results.

John
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Dec 27, 2012 - 02:59pm PT
"So let's just exploit this tradgedy. Let's pass wide sweeping laws that just divide this deeply fractured society even farther."

Except that, of course, the wide sweeping laws are passed by wide sweeping democratic majority rule. If you believe this "fractures" our society, you need to go where gov't operates in the way you prefer.

Yes Hedge, you think the current federal government is here to help us and operates in the best interests of their citizens.

You follow in the hoof-prints of billions before us.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Dec 27, 2012 - 03:12pm PT
Works about as well as any other form of mob rule.
Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
Dec 27, 2012 - 03:12pm PT
UK = 62 million
Annual gun deaths = 62
Rate = 1 gun death per 1,000,000 people per annum

USA = 310 million
Annual gun deaths = 11,100
Rate = 1 gun death per 30,000 people per annum

Yup, all those guns makes the USA a lot safer than the UK, where guns are outlawed.

Thanks to gun nuts, I have a 30-times greater chance of getting murdered by a gun than someone who lives in the UK.

Oh, you wanna look at murder by all methods? The murder rate in the UK (1.2) is one-fourth of the murder rate in the USA (4.2) on a per-capita basis.

Yup, Guns make America safer!
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Dec 27, 2012 - 03:19pm PT
You're right, Hedge, it's merely gun crime that increased. Trying to get data on gun murder rates in the United Kingdom isn't easy. The Home Office statistical report offers some help, but not enough to determine trends. If I were to indulge in some post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy, though, I would point out that murder rates rose after the passage of the 1997 Firearms Act, but hey, what's data anyway?

http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/publications/science-research-statistics/research-statistics/crime-research/hosb0212/hosb0212?view=Binary


Trying to correlate gun ownership and gun homicide rates by geographic area, without accounting for changes in the laws, is rather meaningless. The United States, ranking far and away the highest in per capita gun ownership, is 28th in gun homicide rate. Switzerland, for example, has about 4.5 times more guns per capita than does Argentina, but Switzerland's gun homicide rate is about 1/3 that of Argentina's.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2012/jul/22/gun-homicides-ownership-world-list

That's why trends matter, so I can't really blame Norton or Hedge for trying to distract from the data showing that changes in gun laws haven't delivered the results they advertised.

John
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Dec 27, 2012 - 03:20pm PT
Go back about a hundred years, S.L.R., to the time when the gun laws in the U.S. and the U.K. were the same - as in there were no gun laws. Gun ownership rates were sililar then, too.

What wasn't similar, however, were the rates of gun here and there.

America had a much higher rate of gun violence than the U.K. back when we shared the exact same gun laws - and still does today - because we're a more violent society. And we always have been.
Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
Dec 27, 2012 - 03:22pm PT
...because we're a more violent society...

Thanks to guns!

And the solution is... more guns???????

YGBSM
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Dec 27, 2012 - 03:37pm PT
Will post more later. Computer got hacked so my ability to work and communicate is seriously curtailed. Boo.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Dec 27, 2012 - 03:56pm PT
Thanks, Crimpie.

John
TwistedCrank

climber
Dingleberry Gulch, Ideeho
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 27, 2012 - 04:23pm PT
This thread was supposed to be about pill problems, not guns. WTF?
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Dec 27, 2012 - 04:44pm PT
"Could it be that you don't know what "civil" means?"

Yes that's how we rebuild society, by quibbling over definitions of words, hahahaha
**
Here's the best way to start rebuilding society: Get rid of the party that is doing everything they can to prevent it.

Fortunately, by 2020 they'll be just as irrelevant nationally as they currently are in CA, and we can get started**

Yes, as soon as we can get the federal government up to snuff like California's, happy days will be here again. Can't wait.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Dec 27, 2012 - 05:21pm PT
And you know this because of your close personal relationship with Diane?

Or is it because your friends are making stuff up, so you have something to be outraged about?
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Dec 27, 2012 - 05:24pm PT
Colorado, Florida and Nevada are now Blue States.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 27, 2012 - 05:30pm PT
I thought that Colorado was now a green state,..







Feinstein for salesman of the year!

The fukking shelves are bare!

There isn't even any .22 ammo for sale.

Dick told me that yesterday a guy came in and paid retail for every hi-cap magazine magazine in the store to any gun.

I even contemplated picking up some new hi-caps to guns I didn't own for trade value.

If Ron is right and this goes through I'm gonna be a GREAT GREAT GREAT GREAT grandfather.
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Dec 27, 2012 - 05:50pm PT
JE - without spending a lot of time digging about Britain and gun violence...and not being in my office where my books are...I offer this:

People posting about large increases in gun violence are generally posting about the NUMBER of crimes, not the rate. These numbers do not take into account growth in the population. When posting about rates, it appears that it's gone down some after an initial lag following the most recent firearm legislation.

Something to keep in mind about GB is that they've always had relatively low rates, so there isn't much lower it can go. Always more room to go up then.

Too short an answer I know, but with my machine being pesty today, I'm behind on some work so I've not given this the attention it deserves right now.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Dec 27, 2012 - 06:07pm PT
Thanks, Crimpie. That was my suspicion, because I have to believe that there isn't a whole lot of data on which to make reliable statistical analyses.

Incidentally, the study that Hedge cites as showing a drop in gun violence after the enactment of the federal assault weapons ban has this to say about cause and effect:

It is Premature to Make Definitive Assessments of the Ban’s Impact on Gun Crime

• Because the ban has not yet reduced the use of LCMs [large capacity magazines] in crime, we cannot clearly credit the ban with any of the nation’s recent drop in gun violence. However, the ban’s exemption of millions of pre-ban AWs and LCMs ensured that the effects of the law would occur only gradually. Those effects are still unfolding and may not be fully felt for several years into the future, particularly if foreign, pre-ban LCMs continue to be imported into the U.S. in large numbers.
The Ban’s Reauthorization or Expiration Could Affect Gunshot Victimizations, But Predictions are Tenuous

• Should it be renewed, the ban’s effects on gun violence are likely to be small at best and perhaps too small for reliable measurement. AWs were rarely used in gun crimes even before the ban. LCMs are involved in a more substantial share of gun crimes, but it is not clear how often the outcomes of gun attacks depend on the ability of offenders to fire more than ten shots (the current magazine capacity limit) without reloading.
. . .

Crimpie actually has some peer-reviewed papers published on this area, if I remember rightly. That, along with her eminent level of expertise in criminology, makes her views rather more persuasive on these issues than those of anyone else (including me).

John
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Dec 27, 2012 - 06:14pm PT
Gee,

I guess I think that we should do........nothing at all!

Let's just continue to let anybody buy any kind of high capacity assault weapon, and why not continue to allow convicted felons and mentally deranged people buy those weapons at gun shows and from private parties without any background checks!

Let's mock and ridicule any legislator who considers any kind of bill that corrects some of that "looseness" in our gun buying culture!

hint: absolutely no one is talking about taking anyone's guns away, what a relief

And most of all, just one week after 20 third graders were slaughtered,......

wait for it......

let's do nothing!
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Dec 27, 2012 - 06:18pm PT
It is Premature to Make Definitive Assessments of the Ban’s Impact on Gun Crime

It seems really difficult to find a relationship like this. Mostly because of all violence, gun violence is a very small percentage. Numerically then it won't drive overall violence rates much at all. Murder is a different story, but again linking any gun ban on murder going up or down is the very hard part.

Edit: Doing nothing at all seems problematic to me. This is of course an area of disagreement and some thing change is needed and others do not. To me, it seems we need to try to do better at reducing murder even more than it's declined. The question is what drives making things better. What form will it take? Are we are willing put spend money and other resources getting there?

And I am a little baffled as to the joy some express about all the guns being bought up like crazy. Seems they would be more expensive for Joe Schmos to buy right now given the demand. Generally paying more upsets people, but here some seem thrilled. Some people puzzle me.

Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Dec 27, 2012 - 06:20pm PT
Norton writes:

"...and why not continue to allow convicted felons and mentally deranged people buy those weapons at gun shows and from private parties without any background checks!"



It's already illegal for felons and mentally deranged people to buy guns at gun shows, just like it's already illegal for those people to buy guns everywhere else.

Perhaps the current law needs to be enfoeced.

If a current law isn't enforced, what makes you think a new law will be enforced?
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Dec 27, 2012 - 06:30pm PT
If anyone doesn't think there is a relationship between the number of guns in a society and the percentage of murders caused by guns....they have shite for brains. Some studies could not find a depreciable decrease in gun related homicides during the ten year assault weapons ban. Duh!!!!...think maybe the cat wasn't already out of the bag with nearly 300 million weapons already in people's possession.

With such a gun crazed society, any gun control legislation will take years to show appreciable results. That is NOT an excuse to not enact sensible legislation, but it IS a reason to get the ball rolling asap.

One thing for sure.....there wouldn't be twenty mourning parents in Newton if Lanza did not have an assault rifle and large capacity magazines in his possession.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 27, 2012 - 06:55pm PT
If I have enthusiasm for the current spree of buying it is only because I understand investments.

Soon I might be able to sell a quarter of my ordnance to pay for all of it.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 27, 2012 - 07:01pm PT
Mine has 4 -15 rounders and 1-30


A steal at $5K
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Dec 27, 2012 - 07:04pm PT
Depends on which bank you rob. That's where they keep the money, you know.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 27, 2012 - 07:08pm PT
I'm considering hocking a few at their inflated value.
If the price stays high redeem, if the bubble bursts say "keep 'em".
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 27, 2012 - 07:16pm PT
Watch the idiots on Pawn Stars.

The way to get a good price on a "sale" at a pawnshop is to hock but not redeem.
The pawnbroker makes more interest off a bigger loan so he is more motivated to get the collateral.

The idiots that want to sell should act like it is a sentimental treasure they will never part with but they GOTTA have X number of dollars for a short time.
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Dec 27, 2012 - 07:33pm PT
So PR, what happens if as some fear, owning those weapons and ammo becomes illegal? There will be no market then (legally). Is it still a good investment?

I ask sincerely. Not knowledgeable on gun markets.
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Dec 27, 2012 - 07:41pm PT
Black markets don't typically bring lower prices. Of course one must take some risk to participate.
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Dec 27, 2012 - 07:44pm PT
It is called the Black Market. Every country has one. Just need to know where, whom and depending [A] they know you

B $$$$ do not know you and do not rip you off.[C] Kill you and take the $$$$.
dave729

Sport climber
Placer
Dec 27, 2012 - 07:48pm PT
Home Security is usually enhanced by a warm nylon 6 thermoplastic polyamide handle containing a full magazine and a rifled barrel.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 27, 2012 - 07:52pm PT
20 years ago when the Crime Bill threatened I saw a fearful gun owner worried about prohibition bring an HK 94 into a gun dealer who promptly gave him $1K.
The guy standing next to him said to the dealer, "What'll you sell it for?"
The dealer said $2K
Transaction went down in minutes without anybody batting an eye.


3 people, 2 were winners
Hint; I saw an HK 94 on gunbroker.com with 6 clips going for $6K+


Not gonna sell mine, but I have a complete set of spare parts and 50 hi-caps,.......
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 27, 2012 - 08:01pm PT
Wow, somebody just deleted a lot of posts.












































Tosser!
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Dec 27, 2012 - 08:02pm PT
"What can we do NOW, that is EFFECTIVE?"

The only thing that would be effective NOW is outlawing guns

That's one way to debate, I suppose; simply assume away the problem.

Even if one could get a consensus on amending or repealing the Second Amendment to enact such a ban, there is scant evidence that such a ban would be effective in removing weapons from the hands of potential perpetrators. It seems rather more like naive and wishful thinking to me.

Again, the issue isn't whether removing guns from civilian hands would decrease gun crime. That's a truism. The issue is whether outlawing guns would actually reduce guns in civilian hands, and in particular, in criminal hands. I think it's possible, but hardly a given.

John
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Dec 27, 2012 - 08:42pm PT
Hedge you keep trying to make an equivalency between slavery and gun ownership. That is hogwash.

You have made the point, often made, that our founders had among them slave owners. You understand of course, that the eventual abolition of slavery was set in motion by these same men.

The often misunderstood 1790 census counted slaves as 3/5 of a man. At face value this seems wrong, but the reason it was done was to insure that the first House of Representatives had a northern state majority. This was vital if slavery were to go, and they knew it.

It was written into the Constitution that the slave trade was protected for 20 years, meaning that so long as the northern states could hold their majority the importing of slaves would end in 1808, which it did. The stage was set for seccesion and we all have a rough idea what happenned.

Then of course there are the absolutely clear words of the Declaration of Independance.

I believe the founders wanted to liberate the country of slavery, and being practical men made the best deals they could to set this process in motion while building and preserving the union.

So at the same time that they were sowing the seeds to end slavery, they were very clear that there is a right to keep and bear arms. They did not say "for 20 years."

You focus on the preamble statement to spin the words to suit your argument. But a preamble is just that, and the statement which follows is crystal clear: "the right of the people...shall not be infringed." It does not say "The right of the Government to issue arms to the people for a cause..." Now what do you think is the reference in the preamble to "a free state?" The federal government? Not a chance.

The other thing you keep going off on is this fantasy about armed conflict between gun owners and an oppressive government. The best way to bring this about is to have an oppressive government which decides to disarm it's citizens. If you think the government will do that out of benevolence you are naive.

You are correct that a direct conflict between a group of citizens with small arms and an attack helicopter is not going to go well for the citizens. What you are missing here is the concept of liberty - that if the government can be held through the political process to respect the right to keep and bear arms this conflict need never occur.

Norton is interesting, a liberal who has a CCW. Most of what he proposes as sensible regulation I agree with 100%. My brother earned his CCW in Boston Mass. It was a real challenge for him, as I think it should be.
kennyt

climber
Woodfords,California
Dec 27, 2012 - 09:41pm PT

Not gonna sell mine, but I have a complete set of spare parts and 50 hi-caps,.......

Everyone has their price.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 27, 2012 - 09:44pm PT
Reserve price $200K


But I'll throw in a case of ammo which, these days, might be worth more.
kennyt

climber
Woodfords,California
Dec 27, 2012 - 09:49pm PT
just another sellout. I'm Dissapointed you said you wouldn't sell yours.

EDIT: You should get into politics.
kennyt

climber
Woodfords,California
Dec 27, 2012 - 10:01pm PT
But aren't the nutters gonna make a stand?
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Dec 27, 2012 - 10:06pm PT
Toker wouldn't fire off his wealth anyway.
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Dec 27, 2012 - 10:28pm PT
So just to be clear, you advocate:

A tyrannical government which would disarm people by force including lethal force from a distance. And you think that "what the military is for" is to enforce on American citizens your idea of what is right despite law and tradition.

Unfortunately Lincoln didn't have Apache helicopters

Fortunately Obama does

You are nuts, Hedge. The President does not have that power.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Dec 27, 2012 - 11:01pm PT
The fed never did order the states to form their militias.

They preexisted the confederation, (which came before the fed and the Constitution) which was powerless to do anything but beg the states for resources. The response was usually less than enthusiastic.

The militias of the era were purely local. The arsenal at Concord, the intended capture of which sparked the revolution, was the township of Concord's. The militia that slaughtered the retreating lobsterbacks also completely indigenous.

State involvement was purely in providing funds for arms and supplies and higher level officers that got their positions as political patronage and were mostly honorary. Any organized state involvement doesn't really start untill Breed's Hill. (AKA Bunker Hill, but the battle really happened on Breed's hill) Even then it was almost exclusively in funding artillery and uniforms. All the fighting units were organized at the village and township level and folded into Washington's army as cohesive units. State leadership / leaders were only accepted when effective and that was fairly rare.



Gary

Social climber
Right outside of Delacroix
Dec 27, 2012 - 11:04pm PT
The NRA will wholeheartedly back any coup of the government as it is now constituted. That's the funny part.

TGT:
The militias of the era were purely local. The arsenal at Concord, the intended capture of which sparked the revolution, was the township of Concord's. The militia that slaughtered the retreating lobsterbacks also completely indigenous.

Good thing we didn't listen to the conservatives in 1776, isn't it?
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Dec 27, 2012 - 11:11pm PT
They were all students of what would now be considered "conservatives" Locke, Burke, etc.

Classical liberals all.

What masquerades as "liberal" now are the Neojacobin and Marxist

"Progressives"

Nothing clasicaly liberal about them.

All proponents of the will of the state and the collective at the expense of individual liberty and property rights.


They are the antithesis of the intent of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 27, 2012 - 11:21pm PT
just another sellout. I'm Dissapointed you said you wouldn't sell yours.

EDIT: You should get into politics.
Silly kennyt.

I'm not a sellout if I can get twenty for the money you give me for one. I'm an astute businessman.
(But then if there weren't guys like you then who would the smart people hire to do the shlt jobs?)
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Dec 27, 2012 - 11:26pm PT
Speaking of "Lincoln", let's take all those here who are prone to a liberal (heh heh) interpretation of the second amendment to the US constitution, and believe that it essentially gives ordinary citizens the right to own pretty much whatever firearms they want to. How many of you also believe in "states' rights"? How about nullification?

The NRA will wholeheartedly back any coup of the government as it is now constituted. That's the funny part.

Actually, it wouldn't be funny at all - it'd be treason. Backing armed opposition to your government (a coup) always is.

3. Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court. The Congress shall have Power to declare the Punishment of Treason, but no Attainder of Treason shall work Corruption of Blood, or Forfeiture except during the Life of the Person attainted.
kennyt

climber
Woodfords,California
Dec 27, 2012 - 11:33pm PT
Poker, As far as talent goes your not even in the race sport. my guess is you've been suckin off a trust fund yer whole life.

EDIT: I do consider my clients smart that's why they hire me to build homes you could not afford to heat. So I don't consider that a sh#t job. But thank's for pointing out that people who have to do jobs that are obviously below someone of your caliber are "stupid".


Show us what you have done lately.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Dec 27, 2012 - 11:37pm PT

"The NRA will wholeheartedly back any coup of the government as it is now constituted. That's the funny part."

At least until it comes time to actually start shooting at the United States Army, anyway

Methinks those arsenals might not prove as effective as they have against first graders and teachers

You kinda worry me Hedge... You seem quite delusional. Are you on meds? Serious question... Not that I'd expect an answer...
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Dec 28, 2012 - 12:24am PT
Hedge, nobody's amassing a private "arsenal". Do you even know what a real arsenal is? Besides what you've read on cnn.com?

You seem to have this persistent delusion that people who might own a lot of small arms are somehow all closet insurrectionists.

You also seem to loosely correlate people who may own a lot of small arms with somehow contributing to murder/violence and somehow contributed to the latest mass killings.

Then you have fantasies about such people getting killed by federal forces in various ways.

This is disturbing delusional thinking and you repeat it over and over. I wouldn't care but the violence angle is a bit alarming.

Now, if you're just trolling, bravo my friend, my hat's off to you!



Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Dec 28, 2012 - 01:17am PT
Spielberg shouldn't direct anymore

This coming from a guy who's not narcissistic or arrogant or anything like that...
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Dec 28, 2012 - 01:23am PT
OK. Do any of you guys get laid? Married or not.

When you nab yer clothes and sneak out in the morning with the scent of a woman and all of that sweaty exercise, a whiff of her on your collar will make you pretty damn docile.

The muslims definitely have a problem with pussy. That is why they are so angry. You marry a woman seeing only the slits of her eyes. Sex involves tossing that Burkha up and approaching from behind. You can't even see her eyes. They finish the deed in five seconds, like a mating chimpanzee. They don't even wipe their asses well, so the view is probably pretty heinous.

That is why those guys are seriously fuked up.

Pussy, pussy, pussy. If you are getting regular trim, you just ain't gonna go fight anyone, much less blow up a market or mass murder a bunch of people. These monsters are limited with nothing but porn (a poor but sometimes adequate substitute).
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Dec 28, 2012 - 01:40am PT
Go find a girlfriend.

Advice: If you get a beauty, great, but even a homely girl is just as fun. You get over that whole pretty thing in a few months.

Homely girls also get less attention, so they are often just as lonely as the guys. Some of my best old friends were of the homely sort.

The pretty ones were always In Command.

Just go buy a bunch of condoms and enjoy women. You will sell your guns for more condoms and sweet gifts for her. The best women of all are the ones that you are friends with.

I am still hung up on the smell of a woman. There is something about it that just makes your mind a one way street.

Sell all of your guns and spend it on women. Don't pick them on looks. Pick them on how fun they are to be with.

I speaketh the truth here. Thou shalt not doubt the prophet of poon tang.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Dec 28, 2012 - 01:45am PT
Hedge, that's one guy's theory on what the 2nd is about. It has merit depending on how you read it and support it with other texts from that era. He didn't go on to fantasize about methods of killing government agents.

As someone who's seen a lot of 'bad', I still think the vast majority of people are basically good. That's why a free society works. That's the only way it can work. It has little to do with arbitrary laws. If someone owns lots of guns or not doesn't matter. If they're deeply religious, gay straight, short-tempered, or not, stupid, smart, rich, poor etc... doesn't matter. Most people want to get through the day in peace and have enough to feed and raise their families.

You've got to learn that the individual will is what matters. His/her will to do what they wish as long as it doesn't infringe on someone else's ability to do the same.

Governments, by and large, start off with good intentions but all fail eventually do to varying amounts of corruption and greed. Every one of them. It's inevitable. All civilizations rise and fall. Ours will too. But if we can hold on to that respect for each other's individuality and support each other, we'll just frame a better government next time.

I don't really know what the "founding fathers" were thinking any more than I know what Jesus or Mohammad was thinking. None of us do. So the weight we put into texts like the Constitution, the Bible, the Koran, the Tora is always fraught with peril and arguments. Arguing about phrases in such texts will never end and only divides us.

To me, the spirit of the 2nd is for me to be prepared to defend myself, my family, and my community to the best of my ability using the best tools for the job. To be self-reliant as individuals and neighbors. To not 'depend' on government forces for domestic situations.

Because one day, coming soon, are interesting times.

Anyhoo... just chill out. We're all more alike than the NRA or government/corporations/media (same thing) would like you to believe.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Dec 28, 2012 - 02:00am PT
Hedge,

Take Base's advice maybe. Get some pussy. Get some sleep.

No insurrections tonight. I checked the schedule. You can relax.

BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Dec 28, 2012 - 02:00am PT
I'll give up my nookie when they pry my cold dead fingers from my wee wee.
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Dec 28, 2012 - 02:10am PT
We just mentioned Charles Whitman (UT Tower Sniper). The officer that finally stopped him just died.

http://www.chron.com/news/article/Officer-who-shot-UT-sniper-in-1966-dies-at-72-4149859.php
Wayno

Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
Dec 28, 2012 - 03:15am PT
"I can't believe it's not butter"
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Dec 28, 2012 - 01:48pm PT
Time for security in police stations... :/

Gun fight in a police station in NJ.

http://abclocal.go.com/wpvi/story?section=news/local&id=8934293&hpt=hp_t3
frank wyman

Mountain climber
helena montana
Dec 28, 2012 - 02:20pm PT
I'm so paranoid that I have a "rear-view-mirror" on my "stationary bike'...
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 28, 2012 - 06:14pm PT
I don't buy this pussy theory. For me it is usually feast or famine, but during the "famines" I spend more time hunting for something other than guns.


Anywaaaaaaaaaay.

The the braggart brat wrote;
Show us what you have done lately.

Well, despite the freezing morning it turned into a nice day so I went to the range I've been using for 34 years, and lo and behold it is like the old days; nobody there.
Must be hoarding ammo.
Glad I don't have to.

Put a small silhouette out at 220m and put 18 62gr hollow points into the Bushmaster Varminter.
















































Wish you were here,..

(gotta remember to remove glasses while focusing)
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Dec 28, 2012 - 06:17pm PT
Is it true that some/many gun ranges use an outline of your president as a target? If so, why?

Anyway, if the recent tragedy doesn't lead to much better regulation of automatic, semi-automatic and assault weapons, evil will have triumphed.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Dec 28, 2012 - 06:20pm PT
whoever said that guys that live for their guns are ignorant horse's asses are wrong

I just don't agree with that at all.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 28, 2012 - 06:23pm PT
Anders, source please? I've never seen one, but still have a few Osama targets.


Evil has already triumphed.
You want to give Lanza the posthumous thrill of disarming a free nation.

Yeah,.... that oughtta work.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Dec 28, 2012 - 06:32pm PT
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/14/obama-pelosi-shooting-targets_n_1345685.html

That didn't take long - although I suspect that most people who buy such things use them privately. A gun range that put one up in public would probably soon get a visit from the Secret Service, and be vilified in the news media.
zBrown

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Dec 28, 2012 - 06:54pm PT
Ever wonder what it would be like (guilty or not) getting shot in the head at close range? Viewer discreation advised - Youtube wants you to be over 21.

[Click to View YouTube Video]
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Dec 28, 2012 - 06:57pm PT
None of the twenty children murdered two weeks ago was over eight.
jstan

climber
Dec 28, 2012 - 07:28pm PT

None of the twenty children murdered two weeks ago was over eight.


If I have enthusiasm for the current spree of buying it is only because I understand investments.

Soon I might be able to sell a quarter of my ordnance to pay for all of it.

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 28, 2012 - 07:34pm PT
Yeah, sure. I am callous and Obama hasn't killed even more kids with drones.
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Dec 28, 2012 - 07:40pm PT
That's the part I like the best - the background check on people who already have them.

Hedge, I don't know about every state, but in Ca. if I buy a gun I undergo a background check and there is a two week waiting period. This is required whether I buy it from a dealer or from a private citizen or at a show. In the case of the latter two, I must pay a dealer to act as intermediary, run the background check, and hold the gun for two weeks. Personally, I would not sell a gun of mine to anyone under the table without doing this since if it were later used in a crime I could have a big problem. FWIW I have no problem with any of this regulation. There is no "gun show loophole" in CA., and if some fool sells a gun under the table he is putting himself at serious legal risk.

But in practical terms requiring background checks on people who already own guns is not going to accomplish much. Either their weapon is legally registered - in which case they have already had a check (and if they have been convicted of a crime since, their registered gun should have popped up in the system) or their gun is not registered in which case no one official knows they have it unless they do something bad with it or are dumb enough to get caught with it.

How many people who have unregistered guns do you think will volunteer for a check if they know they won't pass?

I'm not at this point arguing with the regulation, I am saying it will not actually accomplish anything. It also will not affect me 'cause I'm squeaky clean and will pass any test.

...The Apache pilots will be very busy pretty soon...

Still having delusions? Get help, I don't want to read about you in the paper...
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Dec 28, 2012 - 07:51pm PT
you just made a better argument for banning gun sales than most of the reasons you pretend won't work

Wrong again. The only sales you can effectively ban are transactions you can track - actually be aware of. There will always be a flourishing black market and a ban on legal, registered sales with background checks and waiting periods will fan the flames of this market.

Bad guys who want guns will have them. You propose, with a straight face, that taking away guns from people who obey the laws will somehow change that?

Not a word from you though about violent fantasy entertainment and psych drugs, a common thread in these mass killings.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Dec 28, 2012 - 07:54pm PT
I still don't get what our CIA killing bad fukers with drones in Afghanistan has to do with this

someone?
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Dec 28, 2012 - 08:01pm PT
WHO is talking about "taking away" guns from people who legally own them?
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Dec 28, 2012 - 08:06pm PT
that's what I thought too


down the slippery slope we go

as soon as anyone mentions the possibility of some vague kind of legislation to mitigate mass slaughter in some small way, out jumps the "they are gonna take all my guns away tomorrow" fear crapola
wilbeer

Mountain climber
honeoye falls,ny.greeneck alleghenys
Dec 28, 2012 - 08:08pm PT
norton,we just need a few more rons on here.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Dec 28, 2012 - 08:12pm PT
Obama hasn't killed even more kids with drones

Two wrongs don't make a right, but it seems a poor analogy in any case. Obama's/the government's intention is only to kill people identified as directly involved in attacks on the US, based on as good intelligence as they can get, and to minimize collateral deaths. Those attacked are well aware of the risks those with them face, and could take appropriate action if they wished.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Dec 28, 2012 - 08:17pm PT
Obama hasn't killed even more kids with drones

Two wrongs don't make a right, but it seems a poor analogy in any case. Obama's/the government's intention is only to kill people identified as directly involved in attacks on the US, based on as good intelligence as they can get, and to minimize collateral deaths. Those attacked are well aware of the risks those with them face, and could take appropriate action if they wished.

damn straight said
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Dec 28, 2012 - 08:21pm PT
Why isn't it happening in the UK?

From The Gaurdian...

"You can get a clean [unused] 9mm automatic for £1,500, a Glock for a couple of grand and you can even make an order for a couple of MAC-10s," he said. "Or you can get a little sawn-off for £150. They're easy enough to get hold of. You'll find one in any poverty area, every estate in London, and it's even easier in Manchester, where there are areas where the police don't go."

WHO is talking about "taking away" guns from people who legally own them?

There are people on this forum who propose repealing the 2nd amendment. To your credit, Norton, you are not one of them.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Dec 28, 2012 - 08:32pm PT
Joe, I think you are going to far to seriously suggest that we should make the present ownership of certain weapons "illegal"

by doing something like that, the assumption would then be that people owning those weapons would be first asked to turn them in voluntarily

and if they did not then what, Joe?

no way is our Federal government going to enter people's homes and forcibly take certain weapons

not a realistic proposal Joe, all hell would break loose in this country
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Dec 28, 2012 - 08:33pm PT
Amendments are not cast in stone, nor is the Constitution, which is why there are amendments. Not a lot of controversey here about the Third Amendment which states that...No Soldier shall, in time of peace be quartered in any house, without consent of the owner....
Not too pertinent in 2012 is it.....perhaps the same applies to the Second Amendment.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 28, 2012 - 08:35pm PT
Two wrongs don't make a right, but it seems a poor analogy in any case. Obama's/the government's intention is only to kill people identified as directly involved in attacks on the US, based on as good intelligence as they can get, and to minimize collateral deaths. Those attacked are well aware of the risks those with them face, and could take appropriate action if they wished.

I'm astounded that you so willingly countenance this Anders.
It is the terrorist's fault the kids are dead because he should have stayed out in the open and shot it out on main street with the sheriff like a real American?

Did you read what Ron Paul wrote about moral authority?
About darker skinned children?






IT IS ONLY POLITICS!

Something horrible happens and politicians seize upon it to further their agendas without actually improving anything and likely making it worse.

And then bozos argue on the internet that Obama is the most gun friendly President in 30 years because he allowed the laws of the states that national parks are in to actually stand as law?
BFD!
He held his nose and signed the bill because it included credit card legislation he desperately wanted!


It is POLITICS!
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Dec 28, 2012 - 08:39pm PT
No, it's murder. In one case state-sanctioned, however morally flawed that may be, and in the other case without any sanction. Whether there's such a thing as justifiable homicide is something for the theologians and philosophers. I'd prefer that no children, or for that matter adults, were killed, period. And any reasonable measures that would help accomplish that - regulation of individual ownership of weapons, strict oversight of drone attacks - are just fine with me.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Dec 28, 2012 - 08:39pm PT
oh, but don't forget that PRESIDENT Obama also signed into law carrying on Amtrak trains, so now take a shot at how he must have gotten paid off to do THAT

ever occur to you that PRESIDENT Obama is NOT what you want to believe he is?

that in fact if he sees no reasonable problem with something, he is ok with it?

no way!

so YES, he DID sign the MOST gun friendly gun legislation in over 30 years

regardless of how painful it is for you to keep your contempt for him apart from FACTS



personally, I just hate the idea of a black Democrat in the White House too
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 28, 2012 - 08:41pm PT
personally, I just hate the idea of a black Democrat in the White House too




Actually, though I voted Libertarian, I was proud of my country for electing an African American Pres.


That is really beneath you Norton.
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Dec 28, 2012 - 08:42pm PT
it's clear that reasonable regulation of weapons would be constitutionally permitted.

I'm all in on that. Of course the real question is "What is reasonable?"

I would add to that, in the case of disasters like the Connecticut murders, what can be done which is legal and will work? The more news we get the more it is evident that the killer was planning his rampage for a long time, so the idea that he just suddenly snapped is going down.

Even the gun banners admit that it will take a long time for their plans to bear fruit. How about looking at long term ways to either avoid helping kids become psychopaths (do some serious research on games and drugs,) or to identify them by their behavior before they commit an atrocity.

I'm all for reasonable gun regulation, but what I see going on now is a bunch of people who have been anti gun for a long time pile onto this recent mass murder as a venue to press their agenda. The result is a bunch of proposals which arguably will not stop the next psychopathic mass killer. Or one 20 years from now, and which will certainly not affect a street criminal who gets his gun under the table.

Let's focus on the individuals who commit the crimes and atrocities. If we can make progress in this area we will with certainty reduce the killings. If we cannot, the killers will find a way to create their mayhem.

Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Dec 28, 2012 - 08:48pm PT
Okay Hedge, it's too far back upthread to deal with, but I went through that phrase for you. Your reply was to criticize me for not quoting the whole thing, although the words are common knowledge. Your reply was weak.

I'm done with this. Get to work trying to repeal the 2nd, see how that goes. You'll have more fun than trying to find solutions which actually address the problem and work.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Dec 28, 2012 - 09:00pm PT
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Dec 28, 2012 - 09:04pm PT
Not beneath me at all

Ideological ignorance goes hand in hand with being racist
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 28, 2012 - 09:05pm PT
Veritas!
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Dec 28, 2012 - 09:09pm PT
Unhinged's dream world

They truly are determined to control people to the point where they can't (their theory goes) do anything bad, ever, simply because their freedoms and permitted choices are so limited.

This logic ultimately runs to this: Since no human being needs to do anything besides work and eat, we might as well mandate that people take a powerful narcotic sleeping pill immediately after their evening meal, so they simply slumber until the next work shift.

That way, you're pretty sure no one can really do much of anything at all in their non-working hours. And then at last we will have Paradise on Earth.



Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 28, 2012 - 09:13pm PT
Bruce, in Utah ALL the kids shoot!
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Dec 28, 2012 - 09:22pm PT
No Bruce

you don't get it

IT'S ALL ABOUT ME!

where I live, what newspaper I read, what guns I own

IT'S ALL ABOUT ME
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Dec 28, 2012 - 09:36pm PT
(Reuters) – Kasey Hansen, a special educationteacher from Salt Lake City, Utah, says she would take a bullet for any of her students, but if faced with a gunman threatening her class, she would rather be able to shoot back.

On Thursday, she was one of 200 Utah teachers who flocked to an indoor sports arena for free instruction in the handling of firearms by gun activists who say armed educators might have a chance at thwarting deadly shooting rampages in their schools.

The event was organized by the Utah Shooting Sports Council in response to the mass shooting in Newtown, Connecticut, this month that killed 20 children and six staff members at Sandy Hook Elementary School.

The council said it has typically attracted about 16 teachers each year to its concealed carry training courses. But Thursday’s event near Salt Lake City, organized especially for educators in the aftermath of Newtown, drew interest from hundreds, and the class was capped at 200 for space limitations.

“I feel like I would take a bullet for any student in the school district,” Hansen, a special education teacher in a Salt Lake City school district, told Reuters after the training session.

“If we should ever face a shooter like the one in Connecticut, I’m fully prepared to respond with my firearm,” she said, adding that she planned to buy a weapon soon and take it to work.









PHOENIX — Maricopa County Sheriff Joe Arpaio said Thursday that he plans to deploy his armed volunteer posse to protect Valley schools from the kind of violence that happened in the Connecticut shooting tragedy. Arpaio believes having armed law officers around schools will deter would-be criminals from trying anything violent and, possibly, stop them if they do.

“I have the authority to mobilize private citizens and fight crime in this county,” Arpaio said.

Arpaio first started using his posse to protect malls during the holiday shopping season in 1993 in response to violent incidents in prior years. Since then he said malls where his posse members are on patrol have had zero violent re-occurrences and patrols by his all-volunteer squad during the 2012 shopping season netted a record 31 arrests.

Arpaio said since the program has worked so well in malls he believes it will work just as well protecting schools.

“We’re not talking about placing the posse in the schools right now but in the outlying — the perimeters of the school — to detect any criminal activity.”



A new Gallup poll shows that the National Rifle Association, the target of a wave of intensely negative news coverage after the Newtown, Connecticut school shootings, still has a favorable rating of 54 percent. While down from the organization’s 60 percent favorable rating in 2005, that is still about a point higher than President Obama’s personal favorable rating.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Dec 28, 2012 - 09:42pm PT
Thank God the "stupid pill" isn't singular. The NRA can keep their's and the posters on this thread can keep their's. What are you guy's trying to do....change each others mind- now that's just plain stupid! Give it a rest.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Dec 28, 2012 - 09:46pm PT
So what is the point you are trying to make about UTAH, Ron?

Utah's per 100K population rate of handgun deaths is 10.2

The national average is 10

So, in spite of having quite "liberal" gun laws in Utah, there is NO statistical reduction or argument to be made for "more guns and kids knowing how to shoot equals less deaths'

Nope, no relevance
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Dec 28, 2012 - 09:50pm PT
it would be too too much to think that klk's post:
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=2016672&msg=2020676#msg2020676

would have resulted in anyone actually going off and reading 4 books on the subject from scholars who actually researched the issue...

of course we have the indubitable Donald Thompson reply that assures us that that work must be "pseudo-intellectual deconstruction at its best/ worst." Of course he has neither read the work, nor does he offer an intellectual response, "pseudo-" or otherwise.

If the assembled debaters agree to some level that the actual historic recored is irrelevant, that the modern right to have a lethal weapon in their possession is sacrosanct, and that to preserve their own personal right, it must apply to everyone, then the types of horror represented by the killing of innocent women and children (which is what occurred in Connecticut) will be inevitable.

That is the price, and it is a high one, for maintaining that individual liberty take priority over the rights of the community to be secure.

It is not common sense that the ubiquitous supply of deadly force available to anyone legally is a prescription to a "more perfect union." These are choices we make as an entire society, and as a society we trade off individual liberties with the needs of that society. Checks and balances in the political system are their to ensure that minority rights are upheld against the prevailing majorities...

If one were to take the view that historically, at least a part of the thinking that went into the 2nd amendment was to provide the populace with a means of overthrowing a tyrannical government, then what modern tyrannies have been so overthrown? Have these not all happened in states where guns ownership was banned by the government? In what ways did this ban inhibit the acquisition of weapons with which the civilian population rebelled against their government?

I can understand the reticence of a few to allow the possibility that their personal preference to be armed to be slightly restricted. But they should not adopt the noble claim of preserving the freedom of the people as they are not so concerned with their neighbor's plight, they are only concerned about their own.


Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Dec 28, 2012 - 10:15pm PT
and watching them either change the subject, or scurry away

I neither change the subject - my focus being on the person who commits the act - nor do I scurry away. If I am not here at every moment it is because I actually have a life beyond this thread (apparently unlike certain others...)

Good night, all...
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 28, 2012 - 10:24pm PT
The dozens of ARs sold just in this county baring the shelves in the past 2 weeks were all bought by local Utah residents.

I can assure you that the local culture is monolithic stubborn and rebellious.
Hell, they still call it Utah's Dixie and fly Confederate flags.
(and resentment against the Feds precedes Johnston's army in 1857)

The more you seek to marginalize them the more self-righteous they become.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Dec 28, 2012 - 10:30pm PT
Yes, Ron, self-righteousness is something that the rabid gun nuts have no shortage of. But then, many of them probably also claim to be 'christian'.

I neither change the subject - my focus being on the person who commits the act - nor do I scurry away.

Shouldn't the focus be what if any laws and policies would be constitutionally acceptable, reasonably likely to be enacted, and reasonably likely to reduce incidents of mass murder?
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Dec 28, 2012 - 10:47pm PT
LOL idiocracy from the lamestream media.

These are EMPTY fiberglass tubes.

no more dangerous than the cardboard tube that carpet comes rolled on.

http://www.theatlanticwire.com/politics/2012/12/there-were-actually-two-rocket-launchers-were-turned-las-gun-buyback-program/60390/

But, Hey they are scarey lookin' and have Unhinged tremblin'.






Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 28, 2012 - 11:16pm PT
TGT, I already saw those. Hilarious, they got the operator shield and skipped the ordnance.

I hope they got paid "assault weapon" rates for those throwaway tubes.





Ron, I'm sorry are you talking about present day Utah or is that old confederacy ?.... I'm afraid I can't tell the difference, not by your description anyway.

See Bruce? I knew we had common ground!
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Dec 29, 2012 - 12:34am PT
Shouldn't the focus be what if any laws and policies would be constitutionally acceptable, reasonably likely to be enacted, and reasonably likely to reduce incidents of mass murder?

Did I not say that in my previous post (in fewer words?)
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Dec 29, 2012 - 12:41am PT
[Norton:]WHO is talking about "taking away" guns from people who legally own them?
[Dr.F:]No one
It's just typical slippery slope right wing paranoia
[Norton:]
that's what I thought too


down the slippery slope we go

as soon as anyone mentions the possibility of some vague kind of legislation to mitigate mass slaughter in some small way, out jumps the "they are gonna take all my guns away tomorrow" fear crapola


I see. All we need to get guns out of the hands of those who illegally own them is to pass a law making illegal gun ownership more illegal. And people call gun owners nuts!

In truth, the only way to reduce the supply of illegally possessed firearms is to reduce the number of legally possessed firearms. THus, those who are advocating change in our gun laws are either advocating a useless policy, or else they are, in fact, advocating taking firearms away from legal owners.

Admitting the latter would be a good start to having a worthwhile discussion. Pretending that one side is sane and the other paranoid simply insures the continued existence of the status quo.

John
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Dec 29, 2012 - 01:08am PT
Shouldn't the focus be what if any laws and policies would be constitutionally acceptable, reasonably likely to be enacted, and reasonably likely to reduce incidents of mass murder?

Anders, I think Kris and I, among several others, have been trying to put the focus there. Certain other posters, however, can't get over their naive ideas that the Second Amendment can be changed easily, or that we can get most of the hundreds of millions of firearms currently in circulation in the U.S. out of circulation through simple legislation. They refuse even to confront the issues.

Some posters simply say, in effect, "Austalia and the U.K. have much lower gun crime, and much lower guns per capita, therefore legislation restricting guns will reduce the rate of gun violence in the U.S." The "therefore" is, of course, a non-sequitur. Trying to compare gun crime rates to gun restrictions by U.S. states and the District of Columbia shows no signigicant correlation. D.C. has the lowest rate of legal gun ownership per capita, and the highest gun murder (and all murder) rate, by far. Kentucky, the most armed state, has a murder rate per capita that is sabout 2/3 that of California, the most restrictive state for gun ownership.

I think Kris's point about focusing on the perptrator has merit if, for no other reason, because there seems to be very little that we can realistically legislate to make it measurably more unlikely that people intent on sending themselves and a bunch of innocents to the grave will succeed.

In any case, I appreciate your formulation of the problem. Ignoring the noise might actually produce an interesting discussion.

John

climbingjones

Trad climber
grass valley,ca
Dec 29, 2012 - 02:49am PT
If you think guns are the problem then you are an idiot.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Dec 29, 2012 - 11:08am PT
http://www.sacbee.com/2012/12/27/5079151/california-gun-sales-increase.html

And firearms related deaths and injuries decrease.


Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
Dec 29, 2012 - 11:33am PT
Great....

Now an Arizona sherrif has authorized armed volunteer "posses" to patrol Arizona schools...

Can you imagine "Bubba," armed to the teeth, walking around your child's school armed with an assault rifle? That thought alone would be enough for me to home-school my children.

Gun nuts are crazy. It's time we divided America into the Sane and Insane, build a big fence, and keep the insane gun nuts out of our communities.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Dec 29, 2012 - 11:41am PT
If you think guns are the problem then you are an idiot.

well, I don't think guns per se are the problem

but, some kinds of guns seem to be "a" problem, like the easy availability of full scale assault weapons that are simply not necessary for home defense but cool to own/shoot


in addition, I think that a gun "culture" in this country that is glorified in video games, movies etc also contributes to the problem


and JohnE?
I agree that simply passing more legislation does not in itself make things safer

but would you agree that IF large clips and military assault weapons WERE banned say some 20 years ago that right NOW they would not be as easy to get ahold of, and IF they are not so easy to procure then is it likely THAT would save lives?

if your answer is yes that makes basic sense, then why not ban them right now, have the governments offer cash for them, and MAYBE in 20 years down the road lives would be saved?

Isn't it better to do something than take the easy route by criticizing other's suggestions, while offering nothing constructive oneself?
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 29, 2012 - 11:55am PT
Your allusions to "Dixie" and the confederate flag really piqued my curiosity. I've noticed the odd confederate flag down there. Whats up with that? How the hell can anybody be proud of that?

I made an observation about the local culture and you assume that I am proud of it?
These are the same visigoths that put swastikas outside my house. Screw Godwins Law, it really happens here. WTF makes you think I am "proud" of it?
Or do you?

I came here for the rocks not the culture.
But a lot of them have seen me shoot and, though backstabbers, they stay out of my face for the most part.







if there is a reduction it will be restricted to the worst weapons of mass destruction, guns which damage potential far outweighs whatever utilitarian benefit they hold

What? Like my Bushmaster? Do you even know what a 3 Gun Competition is?
Who decides what is utilitarian? Somebody like Bloomberg who doesn't like black guns?
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 29, 2012 - 12:17pm PT
Just making an observation about the locals.
They are not likely to give up their guns easily.

To many the flag is coded racism, another thing many locals are not likely to give up easily.


But the sun is out and I have a bunch of drums loaded.
Catcha later.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Dec 29, 2012 - 12:32pm PT
care to take a guess at how many more murders there would be in Chicago without restrictive gun laws, Ron?

pretty big population in Chicago, right? maybe a couple thousand instead of a couple hundred?


Ron A, can you also explain why the states with the most restrictive gun laws are also the states with the least handgun murder rates?

Like say Massachusetts, toughest gun laws and the lowest gun murder rate?

or how about Nevada way up on the list of gun deaths and with very loose gun laws
http://www.statemaster.com/graph/cri_mur_wit_fir-death-rate-per-100-000

or say Alaska, where everyone has a couple guns also being the state with the highest gun death rate in the nation
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Dec 29, 2012 - 12:57pm PT
Ron - some things to think about when looking at crime rates is to consider how the rates are calculated. The crime rates in that link are generated by:

(# of crimes/population of state)*100,000.

Perfectly legitimate way to do it and it's done widely.

Let's look at DC. Highest on the list in terms of crimes per 100,000. DC had a population of just over 617,000 people (in 2011). Not really that big a population at all, and that is not surprising as DC is smaller than a 10 mile by 10 mile area.

Keep in mind though that every work day LOTS and LOTS of people commute into DC to work and dine and be entertained. And everyday, a zillion tourists descend on the city to see the sights. While in DC, some become victims of crime. Those crimes go into the numerator of the rate per 100,000. Yet the denominator remains 617k because that is the number of people who RESIDE in the city. This in part leads to a really high rate. But that is driven in part by the fact that there is a small population which doesn't accurately reflect the # of people who are potential victims there each day.

A better (but impossible denominator) would be to have the # person hours daily. This would better reflect the number of crimes over the number of people available to be victimized. And the rate in DC would drop considerable.

NYC suffers from the same issue. Many people commute into the city, but those visiting are not reflected in the denominator.

In most places, large parks have the HIGHEST rate of crime in the city. This is because there is very small populations of people living in a census tract that contains a large park (e.g., Memorial Park in Houston). Yet everyday there are tons of folks there daily. And where there are people, there is crime. Yet, the population remains the same small number.

Hope that makes sense.

crankster

Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
Dec 29, 2012 - 12:58pm PT
You more guns = more safety people are nuts. You need to seek a mental health professional.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Dec 29, 2012 - 01:21pm PT
"Among the many misdeeds of British rule in India, history will look upon the Act depriving a whole nation of arms as the blackest."

Mohandas Gandhi, an Autobiography, page 446.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Dec 29, 2012 - 01:39pm PT
When the facts refute what I want so badly to believe....

why then the first thing I do is try real hard to "question the source of the facts"

and then when that does not work then I cherry pick through the facts and try real hard to find something, anything, even if unrelated, to post about, as IF that refuted the facts

but most of all, I just don't give a god damn about facts (truth)

and I will continue to believe what I want to believe anyway, truth and facts be damned



because there is no way in hell I am ever going to admit I am flat fuking wrong

get it yet?

that's the way I ROLL baby
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Dec 29, 2012 - 01:46pm PT

Dec 28, 2012 - 10:24pm PT

"D.C. has the lowest rate of legal gun ownership per capita, and the highest gun murder (and all murder) rate, by far. Kentucky, the most armed state, has a murder rate per capita that is sabout 2/3 that of California, the most restrictive state for gun ownership."

Sources, please, or you're wasting your time, and ours. Only wingnuts take anecdotal evidence seriously. You quoted a WSJ editorial this morning that you claimed said gun murder rates had doubled in Britain - and it said nothing of the sort.


The only time I'm wasting is my own, since the statement is common knowledge. Since, apparently, Mr. Hedge is unaware of these facts:

Crime rates:

http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/2012/tables/12s0308.pdf

Gun ownership:
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/12/15/states-with-the-most-legal-guns-in-2012.html

A very simplified but accurate summary of the lack of correlation between gun ownership and homicide rates by state:


http://www.objectobot.com/?p=476

Our good Mr. Hedge has yet to explain how mere legislation will change the United States from a society where there are almost as many guns in circulation as there are people, to one like the countries whose total firearms in civilian hands are small and severely restricted.

John
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Dec 29, 2012 - 01:48pm PT
Where do the stolen guns used in crimes come from? Seriously... they were manufactured, distributed, and sold legally by someone... somewhere... right? There isn't a secret gun factory somewhere pumping out Glocks with serial numbers scratched off, are there. Set me straight, because I really don't know where guns come from. If you say Mexico, do you mean to say S&W is making and/or selling that many guns in Mexico, even though we KNOW they come into the US illegally? That seems irresponsible.

Maybe if the owner was required to insure them and be held to a higher standard of responsibility before given the right to own something capable of such destruction, they won't get stolen as much... or reported stolen as much? You know, there are still places in the USA where it is ILLEGAL to keep any record of who owns guns. How easy do you think it is to "lose" a few guns that you legally acquired and "find" a few grand? You don't think stricter regulations might slow that down a little?


The absurd false equivalence between guns and cars provides an interesting juxtaposition, I think:

We (as a society) agree that EVERYONE who legally operates a VEHICLE MUST take a minimum of 30 hours of DRIVER'S ED and HAVE INSURANCE. We have drunk driver check points in an attempt to protect the innocent from the irresponsible. Safety violations are addressed with fines, classes, and revocation of your license depending on the severity. This undoubtedly keeps us safer while we participate in what many of us unfortunately consider a necessity.

But to own a GUN specifically designed to KILL, and capable of killing dozens of people in a public place in a matter of minutes, you have to wait 10 days and spend about 1hr doing paperwork. There are no serious mental health exams, no periodic renewals with psych evaluations, no insurance, no safety checks, and no penalties for safety violations that potentially threaten the lives of others. That just seems irresponsible and illogical.

I'm not saying we should ban guns... well, maybe the ones capable of killing dozens of innocent people before our responsible CCW citizens can act... I'm just saying we should give the issue some serious thought.

I found this interesting: http://blog.nj.com/njv_editorial_page/2012/12/gun_control_is_as_much_a_part.html
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Dec 29, 2012 - 02:00pm PT
DC is also a tiny spec within 50 miles of West Virgina, the state with the 5th highest gun ownership rate in the country. The surrounding states also have reasonably high gun ownership rates.

The population of DC fluctuates between 600,000 people to over 1,000,000 million people ON A DAILY BASIS. Do you think that might have something to do with it? How can any cities restrictions or regulations be effective when the population nearly doubles on a daily basis?

Comparing Kentucky to any state or city with high population densities is silly.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Dec 29, 2012 - 02:07pm PT
That seems reasonable, Bruce. I think the concern I have involves the process, because it's not clear a priori that society will be safer in the meantime.

In particular, restricting legal gun ownership would seem to give those who own guns illegally a greater advantage over the general population. I'm not sure what empirical evidence exists or how one would go about estimating whether this is a serious issue or a non-issue. Crimpie -- help!

There's also the libertarian issue involved in the Second Amendment, of course, but that issue seems much less amenable to rational discourse.

Again, I have never owned a firearm, so my only stake in this fight is as an ordinary citizen, but any prescription for what to do in America needs to address what happens during the process. If we need to re-fight the Civil War to achieve dramatically lower gun ownership I, for one, say that's not worth the price.

John
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Dec 29, 2012 - 02:07pm PT
Interesting that you mention the "rate" - being per 100,000 Crimpie,, certainly a broad and unreliable figure for those living in areas plagued by gun violence. A breakdown County by county would be more accurate no?

The FBI regularly reports rates per 100,000. The Bureau of Justice Statistics uses rate per 1,000 because it will create easy-to-understand whole numbers. The factor doesn't really matter and is usually selected on the basis of ease of understanding.

For example, if I told someone that the rate of crime in the US is .20 crimes per 1,000, they usually freak out because it's hard for them to understand intuitively what .20 crimes per 1,000 means. They will ask, what is .20 of a crime? (.20 is a made up number).

So, the FBI uses 100,000 as the factor because it results in whole numbers for the rates.

It's easier for someone to understand what 20 crimes per 100,000 people means versus .20 crimes per 1,000 persons means.


edit: You can get crime rates by county from the FBI Ron.

Here is the state by state link: http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011/tables/table_8_offenses_known_to_law_enforcement_by_state_by_city_2011.xls/view

By large city in NV: http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011/tables/table8statecuts/table_8_offenses_known_to_law_enforcement_nevada_by_city_2011.xls

You can see Carson City here: http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011/tables/table10statecuts/table_10_offenses_known_to_law_enforcement_nevada_by_metropolitan_and_nonmetropolitan_counties_2011.xls.

Here's a fun one - murder by weapon used by state: http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011/tables/table-20

Mots of these tables offer counts. To compare one group to another you'll need to convert to rates to account for differential population sizes.


DOUBLE DOG EDIT: Keep in mind also that the populations used in denominators have nothing to do with citizenship. It only has to do with the number of folks who reside in a place.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Dec 29, 2012 - 02:08pm PT
Norton,, because you post some "study" doesnt make it factual.. Not by a long shot.

wrong, Ron

whether YOU like it or not, we live in a world of facts and truth

and you god damn right a reputable posted study/analysis beats the living crap out of personal opinion

bullshit on gut instinct opinion, I'll take full truth from reputable sources all day long, as would damn near any intelligent thinking person

and when I am proven wrong, I admit it, learn from it, and move on
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Dec 29, 2012 - 02:13pm PT
And for every study , there is an equal and opposite study out there.

GOD I fuking hate that argument. It is the most illogical, uneducated, and unproductive thing anyone could ever say. Science and statistics are not religion and opinions.
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Dec 29, 2012 - 02:18pm PT
I think that federal gun laws are kind of stupid. If you live in Nevada, and like shooting up old cars in the desert, then the Nevada laws should be different than the NYC laws.

If you simply bird and deer hunt, like me, you need a rifle and a shotgun, neither of the tactical variety. Put a gun lock on them and hide them in the attic. The risk of getting attacked and needing the guns in my city vs. the risk of having an available handgun at home don't weigh up.

Bad guys have no problem finding guns, and fortunatly they tend to shoot each other. That said, a concealed carry permit in the ghetto is probably the first place that a person needs a firearm for self defense.

I have my share of friends with massive gun safes, whole rooms devoted to reloading, etc. I wish I could say that it is for Sporting Clays, which is super fun, but they don't. Half of them are so whacky that they horde ammo just in case Obama sends in the smurf U.N. Troops.

Face it. We are never going to make a single dent in collecting all of the firearms out there, and it isn't a clear cut issue to begin with.

I think that assault rifles and pistols with big mags should be heavily regulated when sold. I think that they need to put the Brady background check into gun shows.

I can go to any gun show and buy huge mags. For self defense, an assault rifle is not a great firearm. Most of these murders take place at point blank range. A rifle bullet is simply unweildy in tight situations compared to a pistol.

Even during the assault weapons ban, old guns had been grandfathered in, so big mags and the riles themselves were legal to buy and sell if they had been manufactured before the ban date. The new legislation sounds much the same.

There are some places in this country that are so dangerous walking down the street that you almost need a gun.

There are other places where guns are tools and not really for self defense.

Example: I found it really odd to see AR-15's all over Alaskan Bush villages. They prefer a small caliber to not waste meat, and the .223 will poke a hole in an animal just fine, even a bear.

That and the AR platform is now wildly popular for hunting. I even checked in to buy one for Alaska. My shotgun is no good for meat gathering in an emergency. The AR is, and it is also short enough to swing around the tent (although there are shorter weapons).

I have zero desire to own a handgun. The only purpose for a handgun is to kill people, and I don't plan on that. One time I did the deed with a woman who turned out to be "not quite yet divorced." Her husband was kind of whacky. Despite being an accountant, he had actually killed somebody previously.

Scared the sh#t out of me, but I just set the shotgun next to the door and next to me in bed for a couple of months. Other than that, I've never feared for my life. I've feared of getting my lights punched out, but actually shooting someone is like getting hit by a meteor. Low odds.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Dec 29, 2012 - 02:20pm PT
"Let's look at DC. Highest on the list in terms of crimes per 100,000. DC had a population of just over 617,000 people (in 2011). Not really that big a population at all, and that is not surprising as DC is smaller than a 10 mile by 10 mile area."

"Keep in mind though that every work day LOTS and LOTS of people commute into DC to work and dine and be entertained. And everyday, a zillion tourists descend on the city to see the sights. While in DC, some become victims of crime. Those crimes go into the numerator of the rate per 100,000. Yet the denominator remains 617k because that is the number of people who RESIDE in the city. This in part leads to a really high rate. But that is driven in part by the fact that there is a small population which doesn't accurately reflect the # of people who are potential victims there each day."

Does that suffice?

Not entirely. While it certainly shows an upward bias, it doesn't demonstrate whether there is an adjustment that would make that rate more in line with those of other areas. Also, it's worth noting that Virginia is ranked 30th out of 51 in the rate of legal gun ownership, and Maryland 45th, so it's not at all clear that the surrounding area differs all that much in legal gun ownership from DC.

The fact remains that there appears no statistically significant correlation of homicide, crime or gun-related crime rates to gun ownership by state in the US. That's why you foreign examples are irrelevant.

Well, it's climbing time, so I'll take this us later.


John
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Dec 29, 2012 - 02:24pm PT
Ron, I would take you more seriously if I didn't have to read the "other Ron," who blathers misinformed baloney on other threads. It just makes it too hard to decide to even read what you post.

Calm down, take a deep breath, and go study up on your topic. There is so much gun data out there and nobody is really using it.

Posting charts and numbers is the way for an attorney to win a lawsuit or criminal case. One of my best friends told me that exact thing (yeah, he is a criminal defense lawyer).
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Dec 29, 2012 - 02:45pm PT
My point with the post upthread about looking at crime statistics is that they require interpretation.

So, for DC, one has to consider the influx of people daily when seeing the high rate. Yes, the crime happened there. But the high rate is also attributable to the way these rates are calculated.

In some places outside of NYC (e.g., NJ) the crime rates may appear lower because so much of that population leaves everyday to go to NYC. If there aren't people there, there are fewer there to be victimized and fewer to offend.

The same is true when looking at other places that do not have a big influx or out-flux (sp?) of people on a daily basis. Perhaps Wyoming is a place like that. Or Alaska.

Just my two cents.
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Dec 29, 2012 - 02:53pm PT
That particular table just lists some counties. I picked it for you since you live there. You can find Vegas and other counties on other tables.

Here is the main 2011 page where you can find all sorts of tables...

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011

From there, you can chose violent crime or property crime or what ever suits your fancy. Say you click on 'violent crime'. You will then see a list of tables to the right. Hover over a table # (e.g., Table 4) and it will show the title of that table. Lots of goodies in there. The links I posted upthread are just a few of many.

For example, the Las Vegas Metro area is here: http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011/tables/table-6

Enjoy!
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Dec 29, 2012 - 02:57pm PT
HOW MANY studies in the past, have since been proven NON-SENSE???

Just the ones that were wrong.


Coffee? Bacon?? The list is endless. One year coffee is bad, the next its good.

It is your understanding that is wrong. Show me one credible study that says "coffee is bad." There ain't one. There are studies that say coffee contains compounds that cause cancer in significant populations of test rodents, that coffee causes gastrointestinal problems in some test subjects, or that coffee may cause increases in LDL cholesterol. EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THESE CLAIMS ARE REPRODUCIBLE, VERIFIABLE, AND WILL NOT BE PROVEN TO BE NON-SENSE

The problem is, you don't know a study from a report about the study, which may INTERPRET the results as good or bad. See?
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Dec 29, 2012 - 03:14pm PT
True...if a body goes missing and no one knows that except the one who whacked them, they won't show in FBI homicide or NVSS death certificate numbers.

We call the amount of crime that the police don't learn about (for whatever reason) the "dark figure of crime". :) Sinister, eh?

Lots of time our memories do something called 'telescoping'. That is we draw closer in time events that happened - especially salient events. This is natural human behavior. I used to tell people who asked that I'd been divorced 4 years. After some time, I realized I'd been saying that a long time...turns out it'd been 8 years! Ha!

People may tell others they just moved in their home 4 months ago when it was 9 months ago in reality.

And we may recount stories of murders that we describe to others as happening 6 months ago, but if we checked, they likely happened much longer ago.

As a result, the more recent past gets 'crowded' with things that really occurred over a longer period.

All this to say, that in 2011, those are the numbers of murders (and other crimes) that the police agency learned about and reported to the police. All are likely undercounts, but it is thought that murder is our best reported crime.

I am on an excellent work-avoidance roll today. :) Back to exciting age-adjusted rates on violence against Hispanics for me.

EDIT: I googled "carson city nevada" murder 2011 and all I see coming up are the four murdered in IHOP. Granted, it was a fast search, but do you know of any others?

Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Dec 29, 2012 - 03:28pm PT
Yes, there was at least one suicide, and 2 were shot on a crime spree that started in Reno, and a man was shot in brunswick canyon right near me a while back. Thats just off the top o me head..

The FBI doesn't collect suicide info. That will be found at the CDC in the NVSS data (look upthread for WISQARS). Also, if two guys get shot and killed (and it was not deemed justifiable) it will be recorded in Reno even if the crime spree ended in Carson City.

Be fun to see if the spree you speak of was really in 2011. Fun to see telescoping at work. I do it all the time. :)

edit: Is this it? http://carsonnow.org/story/11/30/2011/young-reno-mom-faces-two-decades-prison-robbery-spree-ended-death. I can't get to the rest of the story. Looks like 2011 indeed. But looks like it got recorded in Reno vs. CC
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Dec 29, 2012 - 03:34pm PT
cain't remember sh#t. I got it too.
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Dec 29, 2012 - 04:23pm PT
I was talking to my mom on the phone yesterday. I wasn't paying attention to her as I could not find where I left my darn cell phone. It's new so I was getting grumpy at having lost it already. I'm looking here, looking there, under papers, in my lap, everywhere. Happily it only took about two minutes to realize I was TALKING on the stupid thing.

Not the first time I've done that either. :/
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Dec 29, 2012 - 04:46pm PT
Not patronizing Joe. Just explaining.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Dec 29, 2012 - 05:31pm PT
Ron, Ignoratio elenchi... look it up.

edit: Wes,, thank the TRPA and THEIR "studies" for the Angora fire.

TRPA is a pain in the ass, so what?

BTW, I'm very familiar with the Angora Fire. I watched it start from the Pie Choss. I also studied fire effects and post-fire restoration hydrology for several years with the likes of Robichaud, Hubbert, and Elliot. So with that... please be more specific regarding the problems you have with the report and I will help you sort it out.

They waggled "STUDIES" in our faces in 1980, 81, 82,84.

And that has what to do with the Angora Fire (or guns for that matter)?

Their studies said the USFS was full of crap.

I'd like to see a "study" that says anyone was full of crap.

When one of the most BRILLIANT foresters ever to be in FED service was at the ready to SOLVE some problems in Tahoe.

I worked 6 years as a seasonal and 6 years as a full-time FS employee. I can assure you there are no BRILLIANT foresters (or other workers) in the FS. Some good people, definitely smart, but no where near BRILLIANT. And NO problems in the natural world get SOLVED by any humans.

We got DENIED. Due to "studies" that have since been proven utterly disastrous.

I don't believe you, mainly because you refuse to back up any of your sh#t talk with anything but your decades old opinion and undereducated understanding of the natural world. Show me the "studies" and we can go from there... or just continue blurting out your opinion as if it were fact and wonder why everyone gives you sh#t. Your choice, obviously.
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Dec 29, 2012 - 05:32pm PT
In 1997 UK introduced a ban on handgun ownership following the “Dunblane Massacre” which left 16 children and their teacher dead, all shot by a madman with handguns.

In 2001 BBC News printed an article showing the results of a study carried out by the Center for Defense Studies at King’s College from which I quote:

“A new study suggests the use of handguns in crime rose by 40% in the two years after the weapons were banned.”

“It also said there was no link between high levels of gun crime and areas where there were still high levels of lawful gun possession. Of the 20 police areas with the lowest number of legally held firearms, 10 had an above average level of gun crime. And of the 20 police areas with the highest levels of legally held guns only two had armed crime levels above the average.”

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/1440764.stm

More recently, in 2009, the UK Daily Mail published government figures which show that gun crime nearly doubled during the decade since the ban.

“The latest Government figures show that the total number of firearm offences in England and Wales has increased from 5,209 in 1998/99 to 9,865 last year - a rise of 89 per cent. In some parts of the country, the number of offences has increased more than five-fold. “

“Last week, police in London revealed they had begun carrying out armed patrols on some streets. The move means officers armed with sub-machine guns are engaged in routine policing for the first time.”

“The gun crime figures, which were obtained by the Tories from official Parliamentary answers, do not include air weapons. But they provide the first regional breakdown of the increasing use of firearms. Lancashire suffered the single largest rise in gun crime, with recorded offences increasing from 50 in 1998/99 to 349 in 2007/08, an increase of 598 per cent."

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1223193/Culture-violence-Gun-crime-goes-89-decade.html#ixzz2GTwmlif6






mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Dec 29, 2012 - 05:39pm PT
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Dec 29, 2012 - 05:50pm PT
I have a folder full of awards and certs... some came framed, some are in those nifty little plastic presentation cases, others were just a nice letter with an even nicer check (I got 2-3 of those a year). I can go look through those if you would like... as soon as you provide ANYTHING concrete (other than your opinion) to support ANYTHING you are spouting on about (guns, fire, TRPA, forestry, whatever).

I'm familiar with J. Sessions from the fire literature,up at OSU(?). Same guy? If so, yeah, he's smart for sure... but brilliant?

BTW, you still haven't even mentioned what you are even talking about, other than you hate TRPA. What exactly is a "perfect example of things to be, that indeed are now the case."

What did you put more effort into for a few years?

What did you spend COUNTLESS hours in the field AND office on?

For the record, this is a gun thread... in which you bring up TRPA and the Angora Fire and a bunch of other vague, unrelated stuff. Have you looked up Ignoratio elenchi yet?
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Dec 29, 2012 - 06:02pm PT



Ignoratio elenchi, also known as irrelevant conclusion,[1] is the informal fallacy of presenting an argument that may or may not be logically valid, but fails nonetheless to address the issue in question.



Ignoratio elenchi falls into the broad class of relevance fallacies.[2] It is one of the fallacies identified by Aristotle in his Organon. In a broader sense he asserted that all fallacies are a form of ignoratio elenchi.[3][4]

Ignoratio Elenchi, according to Aristotle, is a fallacy which arises from “ignorance of the nature of refutation.” In order to refute an assertion, Aristotle says we must prove it's contradictory; the proof, consequently, of a proposition which stood in any other relation than that to the original, would be an ignoratio elenchi… Since Aristotle, the scope of the fallacy has been extended to include all cases of proving the wrong point… “I am required to prove a certain conclusion; I prove, not that, but one which is likely to be mistaken for it; in that lies the fallacy… For instance, instead of proving that ‘this person has committed an atrocious fraud,’ you prove that ‘this fraud he is accused of is atrocious;’” … The nature of the fallacy, then, consists in substituting for a certain issue another which is more or less closely related to it, and arguing the substituted issue. The fallacy does not take into account whether the arguments do or do not really support the substituted issue, it only calls attention to the fact that they do not constitute a proof of the original one… It is a particularly prevalent and subtle fallacy and it assumes a great variety of forms. But whenever it occurs and whatever form it takes, it is brought about by an assumption that leads the person guilty of it to substitute for a definite subject of inquiry another which is in close relation with it.[5]
—Arthur Ernest Davies, "Fallacies" in A Text-Book of Logic
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Dec 29, 2012 - 06:11pm PT
As evidence of rising gun crime since the ban was instituted, the author cited...possession of illegal firearms!

He's not citing those cases as part of the gun crime increase. Those are examples of heavy handed prosecutorial government behavior.



Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Dec 29, 2012 - 06:16pm PT
California has the nation's strongest gun control laws -- and one of the lowest rates of gun deaths in the United States, according to a new study.


While news of shooting deaths in Oakland and elsewhere may lead some to believe otherwise, strong gun control laws in the Golden State have worked, according to the Law Center to Prevent Gun Violence.

California has 7.88 gun deaths per 100,000 people, the report found. Hawaii's rate was 3.31, and Alaska's was 20.28, the report found.

None of the major pro-gun organizations would comment on the report, according to the San http://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/Study-Stricter-Gun-Control-Means-Less-Gun-Deaths-184837431.html Chronicle.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Dec 29, 2012 - 06:18pm PT


In 2009 and 2010, the most recent years for which information is available, California had the nation's strongest gun controls and the ninth-lowest rate of gun deaths, according to the Law Center to Prevent Gun Violence, which favors firearms regulation.


Connecticut had the fourth-strongest gun laws and was sixth-lowest in gun deaths, while Hawaii ranked fifth in gun control and had the lowest death rate.


At the other end of the scale, the report found that Alaska, Louisiana and Montana -- all graded F for gun control -- had the highest rates of deaths caused by gunfire, more than double California's rate. The law center graded all 50 states and gave an F, for weak regulation, to 24 of them.

In 2010, the report said, quoting the federal Centers for Disease Control, California had 7.88 gun deaths for each 100,000 residents, compared with rates of 3.31 in Hawaii and 20.28 in Alaska.

More research is needed on the links between specific weapons regulations and fatalities, but "the data supports the common-sense conclusion that gun laws are a significant factor in a state's rate of gun deaths," said the report.

Since the report's release last month, The Chronicle has forwarded it for comment to four gun-rights organizations: the National Rifle Association, the National Shooting Sports Foundation, Gun Owners of America and its state affiliate, Gun Owners of California. None replied to calls or e-mails.

Other recent studies have reached similar conclusions. A researcher at the University of Alabama at Birmingham reported in July that states requiring comprehensive background checks before gun purchases had lower death rates than those without such requirements.
http://www.kjrh.com/dpp/news/states-with-most-restrictive-gun-control-laws-have-lower-gun-related-deaths-study-finds
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Dec 29, 2012 - 06:21pm PT
Guns and Gun Control in the Old West: Another Commonly Believed Misconception:



Frontier towns -- places like Tombstone, Deadwood, and Dodge -- actually had the most restrictive gun control laws in the nation.

In fact, many of those same cities have far less burdensome gun control today then they did back in the 1800s.

Guns were obviously widespread on the frontier. Out in the untamed wilderness, you needed a gun to be safe from bandits, natives, and wildlife. In the cities and towns of the West, however, the law often prohibited people from toting their guns around. A visitor arriving in Wichita, Kansas in 1873, the heart of the Wild West era, would have seen signs declaring, "Leave Your Revolvers At Police Headquarters, and Get a Check."

A check? That's right. When you entered a frontier town, you were legally required to leave your guns at the stables on the outskirts of town or drop them off with the sheriff, who would give you a token in exchange. You checked your guns then like you'd check your overcoat today at a Boston restaurant in winter. Visitors were welcome, but their guns were not.

In my new book, Gunfight: The Battle over the Right to Bear Arms in America, there's a photograph taken in Dodge City in 1879. Everything looks exactly as you'd imagine: wide, dusty road; clapboard and brick buildings; horse ties in front of the saloon. Yet right in the middle of the street is something you'd never expect. There's a huge wooden billboard announcing, "The Carrying of Firearms Strictly Prohibited."

While people were allowed to have guns at home for self-protection, frontier towns usually barred anyone but law enforcement from carrying guns in public.http://www.huffingtonpost.com/adam-winkler/did-the-wild-west-have-mo_b_956035.html
prickle

Gym climber
globe,az
Dec 29, 2012 - 06:25pm PT
wow i can't believe what a bunch of whining liberal pussies post on here, amazing.

waaaaaaa guns bad
waaaaa daddy gov. needs to ban them waaaaaaaaa
waaaaaa other countries ban them waaaaaaaaa
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Dec 29, 2012 - 06:25pm PT
DENIAL OF FACTS:


Denial, in ordinary English usage, is asserting that a statement or allegation is not true.[1] The same word, and also abnegation, is used for a psychological defense mechanism postulated by Sigmund Freud, in which a person is faced with a fact that is too uncomfortable to accept and rejects it instead, insisting that it is not true despite what may be overwhelming evidence.[2][3] The subject may use:

simple denial: deny the reality of the unpleasant fact altogether
minimisation: admit the fact but deny its seriousness (a combination of denial and rationalization)
projection: admit both the fact and seriousness but deny responsibility by blaming somebody or something else.
wiki psych
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Dec 29, 2012 - 06:32pm PT
No Ron,

unlike you, I am not naive enough to panic and fear what has not happened yet.

unlike you, I don't worry or obsess about my handguns being "banned"

unlike you, I know that the difference between full scale assault rifles and handguns is a very very big difference, and I don't pretend that because one "could" be banned that it necessarily follows that the other will be also

get it?
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Dec 29, 2012 - 06:36pm PT
Norton if that trend were at all consistent across all 50 states you might have an argument. For example many of the states with significantly lower rates than CA., Wisconsin, Nebraska, Iowa, New Hampshire, Minnesota, and Rhode Island have less restrictive gun laws. And Vermont, which has no license to buy or own, no assault weapons ban, no restrictions on nfa weapons, and allows concealed or open carry without a permit - in other words the least strict gun laws of any state - has a death rate from guns about .3 / 100K above CA.

Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Dec 29, 2012 - 06:41pm PT
Of course he is. The article is about handgun crime doubling.

You're smarter than that I think. The two examples he gives are not citations to support the statistics, which are from the UK Gov.

If they were meant as such why would he cite an incident involving a shotgun found in a bag to support stats on handgun use?

Don't be silly.

He starts that as a new paragraph to show examples of overzealous enforcement of the laws.

TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Dec 29, 2012 - 06:50pm PT
A Brit is five times more likely to die from government healthcare than an American is from a gunshot.


http://www.thompsons.law.co.uk/clinical-negligence/basic-errors-hospital-patients.htm
prickle

Gym climber
globe,az
Dec 29, 2012 - 06:56pm PT
A Brit is five times more likely to die from government healthcare than an American is from a gunshot.

ahahahahahahahahaha!
tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Dec 29, 2012 - 06:59pm PT
So if the government should be to be be daddy to those of you who are crying for them to now fix a society that YOU built, what should they do? Because the net effect of everything now is SELLING MORE GUNS.


Why don't they manipulate the news so that the *net effect* is TURNING in GUNS?








Weird, eh? Like the NRA/gun companies are controlling the media.




Then ask yourself, what can be done so that the net effect is LESS MURDER???? Isn't that what you really want?














Because, truthfully, whoever is in control is getting what he wants, and obviously it is more gun sales.




tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Dec 29, 2012 - 07:09pm PT
I feel sorry for jghedge and others who can't see that their society is the fundamental issue here and not laws. I know it is hard to admit, because you wish you could be like countries like Canada and the UK, but that's not going to happen. You aren't. Changing a gun law is a useless thing to do in your situation at this point.


The facts are hard to swallow, especially if you have only lived in the US your whole life. But anything else is sheer stupidity/ignorance. You aren't like us, and taking the guns away from your good guys will not have the effect on your society that you wish.






Your bread is baked, you can't remove half the salt because you now find it too salty.
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Dec 29, 2012 - 07:12pm PT
They're examples of gun crime stats.

Are you high??

They're not examples of gun stats. Duh.

The guy found a shotgun wrapped in a bag in his yard (sounds like someone wanted to get rid of it quick) and so he takes it down to the local police station to turn it in. They arrest him and he ends up in jail until finally, in response to great public outcry, he is let go. They sentenced him to 5 years!!

That is not an example to support a stat, it is a story about over zealous prosecution.

You're accusing me of conjecture? Good grief are you trying to read that article on a PDA while you are driving or something? How else could you not see the guys point??
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Dec 29, 2012 - 07:25pm PT
FOREST MANAGEMENT tangent (OT)... guns suck anyway:

If you think a 1980's debate about the difference between basal area and SDI sums up the goings on in the Basin... ah, fuk it, never mind!

Those detailed plans of yours... what equipment were you planning to use? The thinning/logging equipment back then was HEAVY and had a HUGE impact on the soils (that was my specialty here). If you think pulling rock out of the Cloudburst Canyon debris slide is going to cause damage... oh boy! I was still dealing with erosion from decades old landings and skid trails. The equipment they use now exerts ~6-8 psi on the soil... less than a human foot print. Maybe you were planning on using hand crews back in the 1980's... if so, you would still be working on the N side of the Angora area when the fire started in 2007.

The Angora fire would have never gone down like it did had things been done in 82.

THAT is an absurd claim. Besides, why would an enlightened person like you promote the suppression of a PERFECTLY NATURAL FORCE OF NATURE that has existed in the region for centuries. The natural fire return interval is ~50-100 years (if memory serves), so it was high time it burned anyway. It sucks that people lost their houses... but it obviously didn't suck THAT bad considering the size of the replacement homes!

As you may recall, that area is riddled with networks of riparian corridors and sensitive soils (peatlands, etc). I'm guessing you didn't assess the soils in your plan. If it makes you feel any better, the Vegetation Management department was still pretty short-sighted and narrow-minded when I was there. Thank God "big D" showed up, he seems to be the only one willing and/or able to look at the big picture... hell of a brewer too.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Dec 29, 2012 - 07:25pm PT
I've been working for the last 15 years with the USFS, as a volunteer mainly on trails. I am, though, one of few c-certifier saw instructors in the region, so I know trees far better than the average person.

Believe it or not, although he expresses himself poorly, I am in full agreement with Ron, with respect to forest management and health.

For anyone to take the position that "a forest can take care of itself" is ignoring the fact that the Sierra forests have been managed by humans by many hundreds of years...to a large degree to the detriment of the forest.

My observation of the forest, and what I teach new rangers, is that wherever I go, I see an unhealthy forest....FAR too dense, with FAR too little fire.

The problem is often context.

Someone on the "Photo of half dome from the valley" thread mentioned that it must have been much easier to see the Sierra in years gone by when there wasn't smog.

No!

What there was INSTEAD, was virtually constant fires burning at low levels all during the spring, summer, and fall....because fires were not put out, there was no way to do it. Before they were driven out, Indians set fires in the forests constantly as a management tool.

Well, problem now, is that we have people living in the foothills and valleys, and air quality is a very significant issue. You can't just light the forest on fire.

So now we have ourselves in a trap. The accumulation of fuel year-to-year, is HUGE. You can go in with machinery like masticators, but it is enormously expensive, and definitely leaves tracks.
tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Dec 29, 2012 - 07:27pm PT
You might as well be arguing to remove half the cars on the road. Hell, they only have 1 car per 10 people in Namibia and they get along just fine without them, and they have wayyyy fewer auto deaths per 100,000 pedestrians who don't even drive, so you should get that number too!

Shouldn't only the taxi drivers carry? Or I mean, drive? Just professionals in uniforms? TSA agents maybe? That would work. Technically. But there would be jerks who would steal cars and run people over still, and when that is a sport in your society, where kids grow up being imprinted with that as a primary use of a car, where TV, video games, news, all bombard them with the same use of cars over and over and over for 20 some years - what do you think they will do when they are mad? They will commandeer a vehicle. That is what is happening now, and what will continue to happen.


Because your media got you whipped up into a frenzy about this event you are chasing it. If you looked at it compared to other causes of death in your country you would realize that with your effort you could really make a difference if you got into public health or something. But that's not what trolling the Taco is about, is it?
prickle

Gym climber
globe,az
Dec 29, 2012 - 07:31pm PT
I've been working for the last 15 years with the USFS, as a volunteer mainly on trails. I am, though, one of few c-certifier saw instructors in the region, so I know trees far better than the average person.

Believe it or not, although he expresses himself poorly, I am in full agreement with Ron, with respect to forest management and health.

For anyone to take the position that "a forest can take care of itself" is ignoring the fact that the Sierra forests have been managed by humans by many hundreds of years...to a large degree to the detriment of the forest.

My observation of the forest, and what I teach new rangers, is that wherever I go, I see an unhealthy forest....FAR too dense, with FAR too little fire.

The problem is often context.

Someone on the "Photo of half dome from the valley" thread mentioned that it must have been much easier to see the Sierra in years gone by when there wasn't smog.

No!

What there was INSTEAD, was virtually constant fires burning at low levels all during the spring, summer, and fall....because fires were not put out, there was no way to do it. Before they were driven out, Indians set fires in the forests constantly as a management tool.

Well, problem now, is that we have people living in the foothills and valleys, and air quality is a very significant issue. You can't just light the forest on fire.

So now we have ourselves in a trap. The accumulation of fuel year-to-year, is HUGE. You can go in with machinery like masticators, but it is enormously expensive, and definitely leaves tracks.

Ha I knew those indjuns started the globe warming!..ii mean climate change,,um well extreme weather ouum...
tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Dec 29, 2012 - 07:32pm PT
jghedge, if you need stats from other countries to back up changes in yours, if you can't understand that you that you can't remove the salt from a baked loaf, if you can't understand the concept of differences in societies, if you have lived 20 miles from your parents your whole life, if solving a crime in your neighborhood is hard because everyone has the same DNA and there are no dental records, then I can't take your arguments seriously!


I'm sure you'll create the society you wish for soon enough. EDIT: You'll get the laws you want, but you have no idea what kind of society that will create.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Dec 29, 2012 - 07:38pm PT
Just a note there are just under 200k hospital error deaths per year in the U.S. so that means you are six times more likely to die in a US hospital than a British one on a percentage of the population basis.
tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Dec 29, 2012 - 07:41pm PT
jghedge. You didn't vote to put locks on cockpit doors. You didn't even install them. You didn't DO anything.

I do know what you mean, and I know where you are coming from, it's a debilitating standpoint taught to you by your bipolar society. I'm not arguing the typical Democrat vs. Republican thing and saying you did it because whatever side you are on did it while in office. That's an american way of thinking which your arguments default to so when you do it with someone who isn't one of those two it is ineffective.


EDIT: nope, I never watched that movie.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Dec 29, 2012 - 07:48pm PT
Just a note there are just under 200k hospital error deaths per year in the U.S. so that means you are six times more likely to die in a US hospital than a British one on a percentage of the population basis.


but wait!

assuming the above is true, how can this be since we in the USA proudly claim we have the "best" healthcare system in the world?

how can Britain, which insures all citizens through its government program, have six times LESS deaths than our magnificent private system?
tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Dec 29, 2012 - 07:50pm PT
If you think the American Civil war solved slavery or racism - I know a lot of people who would beg to differ.


Those people have also lived in and out of the US and can compare the effectiveness of that unlike you.




Some of these people lecture internationally for anti-slavery NGO's like Exodus Cry.



They say that there are more slaves now than then, but now humans aren't trafficked for cotton picking. Nice effect eh? Your news headlines are prettier though. No cotton picking in the US. I'm sure you are happy with the state of your society though.


Heck, I was in Atlanta with my brother-in-law and everyone was heckling us, the cops told us to get off the streets. I couldn't figure out why - until he traded shirts with me. Black guys can't wear a certain color, and white guys can't wear the other. I'm not saying your society is stupid, but racism is alive and well outside your news headlines.






But since there aren't studies and numbers attached, and you don't see it in the news that you will dismiss this as false and bury your head back into the sand!
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Dec 29, 2012 - 07:52pm PT
Ron, IF you ever demonstrate that you have the intelligence to actually read and understand the ACA. only then can you shoot your ignorant mouth off about it.


The ONLY reason you "oppose" the ACA is because a black Democrat signed it into law

You don't know your animal stuffing ass from second base about the ACA.

Stick to killing things, not many people will question your "opinions" about that.

mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Dec 29, 2012 - 07:55pm PT
Ron, you DID NOT address those issues. I know because I was the first one to do a statistical analysis (repeatable, verifiable, you know...) on the effects of using thinning equipment in SEZs. The resulting protocol is now THE ONLY reason anyone is allowed to do mechanical thinning in SEZs in the Basin.

FWIW, it is now the regional water quality board that is putting up a fuss over many of the fuels treatments. They have legitimate concerns about water and soil quality and it is their job to deal with those issues.

All I can say is THANK GOD people like you, who KNOW they are "right" even when they are dead wrong, rarely make it into positions of power.

ZERO erosion, ZERO rehab, ZERO chipping/burning/piling and a veritable lawn of repro the following spring.

Just 100% bullshit! Give me some stand numbers, I will pull them up on my GIS layer and SHOW you the lasting effects your actions had.


Ken M, you will get no disagreement from me regarding the need to manage our forests. But if you claim you knew all there was to know about timber management impacts to forest soils 30 years ago, just because you knew how to fell a tree, I'll probably call you an idiot.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Dec 29, 2012 - 07:57pm PT
Here is an example of the green approach being severely wrong, with people dying as a result, and people protecting themselves being punished.

http://www.smh.com.au/national/fined-for-illegal-clearing-family-now-feel-vindicated-20090212-85bd.html?page=-1
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Dec 29, 2012 - 07:59pm PT
I'll also mention that I used to own a house in the Tahoe basin, and sold it partially because of the extreme fire risk I observed.
tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Dec 29, 2012 - 08:00pm PT
But putting down the insurrection will be short and efficient, unlike then.

Lincoln didn't have Apache attack helicopters.



Since you like facts and quotes, show me a war where your president hasn't said the same thing, and where you haven't been mired down for years (and then left with the country in a mess and ruled by dictators who you propped up and later assassinated).
tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Dec 29, 2012 - 08:03pm PT
[quote]Here is an example of the green approach being severely wrong, with people dying as a result, and people protecting themselves being punished.

http://www.smh.com.au/national/fined-for-illegal-clearing-family-now-feel-vindicated-20090212-85bd.html?page=-1[/quote]



Moral of the story is that he should have let the government take care of him, they fined him $100,000 to teach him that lesson. Then things got real and did the government come through for his neighbors?
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Dec 29, 2012 - 08:06pm PT
Ron, I'm sad you are so obstinate and insist on denying the hard work of others because it doesn't conform to your uneducated OPINION... because you seem like a decent enough guy otherwise.

Ken, I for one am happy for the Angora Fire. Sorry people lost their houses, but like I said... they now have bigger and better ones. From everyone I know who owns a house in the burned area, TRPA bent over backwards to help them rebuild.

I was working on the "South Shore Fuels Reduction Project" when I decided to go back to grad school. We were getting resistance from TRPA for not being strict enough with our hydrology and soils protection, and getting (more hostile) resistance from the veg department internally for scrutinizing their methods. I didn't mind because I'm confident a workable solution can be found if people take the time to collect quality data and look at the FACTS, rather than mere opinions. The Angora Fire woke some land managers up around here.. it also had some of the narrow-minded fools yelling "I told you so" followed by ignoratio elenchi ad nauseum... bringing up all kinds of unrelated stuff from driveway asphault to rain gutters to deck plans... as if those had anything to do with fuels treatments.

Emerald Bay Road was treated pretty heavily over the last couple years... and the tourons have been filing complaints left and right. As you may know, tourons have way more influence here than residents. A similar thing happened along pioneer trail some years back. Now the South Shore Fuels Project is in full swing and you can hear chainsaws from pretty much everywhere.

Point is, we need FACTS and DATA, not opinions. Ronny boy won't even reveal the locations of these cutting edge futuristic projects he helped pioneer so we can all see for ourselves. Why would the big bad government not continue doing them if the worked so well? Is it part of the UN invasion plan? He'd rather we just take his word for it that there was no erosion, etc (something that I will bet my M.S. degree is complete bullshit and 100% verifiably false). Reminds me of the folks who believe tires make for good stream restoration materials. Funny that he slams TRPA for doing the same thing (making sh#t up/relying on opinions) only from the other side.

That's why science rools.
FRUMY

Trad climber
SHERMAN OAKS,CA
Dec 29, 2012 - 08:16pm PT
I find it funny that Ron would bring up how much better a socialist Governments medical system is than ours.

The question was if the NRA have a stupid pill & the answer is Yes.

The next funny thing is all of you defending the most corrupt organization (NRA) in the U.S.

I'm a gun owner & gun collector.

Before you call out our Government you should get yourself in order. I left the NRA over 15 years ago, because of the blatant corruption at the top of the NRA.

Armed insurrection !!! Are you stupid? You sound like the lefties in the 1960's.





tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Dec 29, 2012 - 08:29pm PT
But for all of those, we invaded foreign nations, whee we essentially had no national interests


There is a huge national interest in each country invaded. The US dollar, the ability to borrow more than GDP each year. The economic empire. To keep the American dream alive! All that was needed in the middle east lately was to overthrow the government that thought that they could sell oil for anything other than the US dollar and/or put gold into use as money. Libya, Iraq, Iran is trying but economic sanctions have worked so far... I just can't figure out why they hang around so long each time.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Dec 29, 2012 - 08:33pm PT
Stupid is as stupid does.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Dec 29, 2012 - 08:35pm PT
Regardless of what side of the "gun" fence you sit on...

Our country is flat broke. Fiat all around the world is essentially worthless. All that remains is a realization of that, a loss of faith. It is amazing the can has been kicked this far but they really have no choice at this point.

Historically that has meant widespread war, suffering, chaos, and tyranny except probably on a global scale this time rarely before seen in human history. There are too many variables falling apart at the same time to know the timing or the outcome. Maybe months, maybe decades.

If you cannot see that and these inane wedge issues constantly being driven between members of our society, quite on purpose, then please... carry on.

If you think our current government is truly representative of the people and has their best intentions in mind, then please... carry on.

We live in interesting times.







tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Dec 29, 2012 - 08:36pm PT
like
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Dec 29, 2012 - 08:40pm PT
Yeah, the end of the world was predicted (again)... duh. And on top of that, there was a mass shooting, which can mean only one thing... Obama and the UN are coming after your guns, better buy more to protect yourself.

To quote the man who shares the name of my favorite dough...

Stupid is as stupid does.
FRUMY

Trad climber
SHERMAN OAKS,CA
Dec 29, 2012 - 08:42pm PT
jghedge I hear you.

The U.S. can borrow money because we are 25% of the would GDP.

The world can't buy our bonds fast enough.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Dec 29, 2012 - 08:46pm PT
That sounds legal and responsible

USA USA USA!!!

And you wonder why people want stricter gun laws? Holy fuk man...
tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Dec 29, 2012 - 08:50pm PT
Ron, you are stupid for selling muslims guns. They are our enemy (or so the government tells us). Sell it to a mexican! (or give it to him - fast&furious)
tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Dec 29, 2012 - 08:54pm PT
The Mexicans or the Americans?


tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Dec 29, 2012 - 08:56pm PT
http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/crime/gun-sales-surge-in-virginia-after-newtown/2012/12/28/0ad349e8-511a-11e2-839d-d54cc6e49b63_story.html


Gun sales surge in Virginia... they say that 5,150 background checks were requested in one day. How fast can the police effectively do in a day? How many criminals are getting in on the rush - or are these checks truly thorough?
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Dec 29, 2012 - 08:58pm PT
Lincoln said in his 2nd inaugural address that suffering was being inflicted on the US as karma for the suffering we inflicted on the black race

All those who insist on that same suffering being inflicted on the 12,000 innocents who die at their hands each year will have that same suffering inflicted on them

Will you apply the same logic to the approximately one and a quarter million abortions in the US per year?
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Dec 29, 2012 - 09:03pm PT
yeah, but those aren't really humans so we will need an adjustment factor... 0.01 or less based on weight.
prickle

Gym climber
globe,az
Dec 29, 2012 - 09:08pm PT
libs hate the fact that abortion is basically the genocide of the black race...or do they?
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Dec 29, 2012 - 09:11pm PT
racist, erroneous, just plain stupid comment.
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Dec 29, 2012 - 09:12pm PT
I was watching an episode of my favorite show, "Gangland" where the gang banger was discussing weapons.

9mm: Gotta shoot em 9 times.

.223 just pokes a hole in them.

AK-one shot and they drop.

Russ, get an old AK. They aren't good for shooting deer, but a rifle has real knockdown power. I own a tactical 12 gauge for Alaska, but I ended up just shooting the heads off of ptarmigan to add a little meat to the stew.

Yep. You can blow a ptarmigan's head off with a 12 gauge slug in 3 inch magnum. Good all around gun. Also kills T-Rex with a toe shot.

Why all of this talk of killing, though? You are super inventive and can catch them in snares or something. Then put them in a pit for a few weeks and dump the insane bastard on some freeway ramp. All safe and through withdrawal.

We could call it Russ's Ranch de Rehab.

No torture or anything, just no drugs for a couple of weeks.
tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Dec 29, 2012 - 09:13pm PT
If his party dies, so does yours person-who-calls-his-fellow-Americans-winguts. It takes 2 parties to have a democracy. Why are you doing your part to tear America apart?
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Dec 29, 2012 - 09:15pm PT
I bet 50 regular users here know my name. I like to speak freely because when you get a job nowadays, your web presence follows you around.
tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Dec 29, 2012 - 09:16pm PT

How much more suicide prevention for them do you suggest we do?

It seems like you are doing everything for everyone. But it only seems that way. I'm sure you don't do much for anyone.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Dec 29, 2012 - 09:19pm PT
It takes 2 parties to have a democracy.

hahahaaaaa... 2.... ahahaaaaa... you fell for it!!!
tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Dec 29, 2012 - 09:25pm PT
Don't laugh at your 2-party system! Sure, Canada may have more choices and parties than you, my vote in Canada is 1:1 million, whereas yours is 1:10million, but it is all you have!


http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/12/28/us-military-heart-idUSBRE8BR0I220121228

"Webber said the findings also show that although the U.S. has made progress in lowering the nationwide prevalence of heart disease, there's more work that can be done to encourage people to adopt a healthy lifestyle and reduce their risks.

Heart disease accounts for about one in four deaths - or about 600,000 Americans each year, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention." They can change a nation's largest killer without federal laws - ok perhaps labeling laws - because they do it through education. Dumb people will still eat at McDonalds. McDonalds wasn't outlawed, or only given to cops or restricted to only fries and apple pies.

We know how people work, we know how to make positive changes in society. We know that isn't what is happening with gun laws - tells me something else is the goal by those in charge.



I agree that fewer guns around will mean restricted access for criminals, but why play games when there are so many examples to make real change in your society - to take the problem seriously? so far all that has been accomplished is to get tens of thousands of more guns into people's hands - and a couple thousand turned in.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Dec 29, 2012 - 09:28pm PT
Tooth, since you brought up heart disease in a gun thread (as if it was at all related) would you mind taking a moment to consider and answer the following, I'd appreciate it:

Where do the stolen guns used in crimes come from? Seriously... they were manufactured, distributed, and sold legally by someone... somewhere... right? There isn't a secret gun factory somewhere pumping out Glocks with serial numbers scratched off, are there. Set me straight, because I really don't know where guns come from. If you say Mexico, do you mean to say S&W is making and/or selling that many guns in Mexico, even though we KNOW they come into the US illegally? That seems irresponsible.

Maybe if the owner was required to insure them and be held to a higher standard of responsibility before given the right to own something capable of such destruction, they won't get stolen as much... or reported stolen as much? You know, there are still places in the USA where it is ILLEGAL to keep any record of who owns guns. How easy do you think it is to "lose" a few guns that you legally acquired and "find" a few grand? Ron makes it sound pretty easy. You don't think stricter regulations might slow that down a little?


The absurd false equivalence between guns and cars provides an interesting juxtaposition, I think:

We (as a society) agree that EVERYONE who legally operates a VEHICLE MUST take a minimum of 30 hours of DRIVER'S ED and HAVE INSURANCE. We have drunk driver check points in an attempt to protect the innocent from the irresponsible. Safety violations are addressed with fines, classes, and revocation of your license depending on the severity. This undoubtedly keeps us safer while we participate in what many of us unfortunately consider a necessity.

But to own a GUN specifically designed to KILL, and capable of killing dozens of people in a public place in a matter of minutes, you have to wait 10 days and spend about 1hr doing paperwork. There are no serious mental health exams, no periodic renewals with psych evaluations, no insurance, no safety checks, and no penalties for safety violations that potentially threaten the lives of others. That just seems irresponsible and illogical.

I'm not saying we should ban guns... well, maybe the ones capable of killing dozens of innocent people before our responsible CCW citizens can act... I'm just saying we should give the issue some serious thought.
tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Dec 29, 2012 - 09:30pm PT
mechrist,

I agree with a lot of that. I agree that Canada's laws, (which you essentially describe) would reduce 'lost' guns.... let me copy and reply to each of your points....




Where do the stolen guns used in crimes come from? Gun factories from every other nation on earthSeriously... they were manufactured, distributed, and sold legally by someone... somewhere... right? There isn't a secret gun factory somewhere pumping out Glocks with serial numbers scratched off, are there. Set me straight, because I really don't know where guns come from. If you say Mexico, do you mean to say S&W is making and/or selling that many guns in Mexico, even though we KNOW they come into the US illegally? That seems irresponsible.

Maybe if the owner was required to insure them and be held to a higher standard of responsibility before given the right to own something capable of such destruction, they won't get stolen as much... or reported stolen as much? Canada requires everyone to get licensed and then restricted guns to be registered - not farm guns. Just like our town cars have to be licensed, but not the ones we keep around the propertyYou know, there are still places in the USA where it is ILLEGAL to keep any record of who owns guns. How easy do you think it is to "lose" a few guns that you legally acquired and "find" a few grand? Ron makes it sound pretty easy. You don't think stricter regulations might slow that down a little?It is easy for anyone to 'lose' anything they own if they want the money. That is human nature and laws can't change human nature


The absurd false equivalence between guns and cars provides an interesting juxtaposition, I think:

We (as a society) agree that EVERYONE who legally operates a VEHICLE MUST take a minimum of 30 hours of DRIVER'S ED and HAVE INSURANCE.I got licensed in 2 states and 2 provinces without that We have drunk driver check points in an attempt to protect the innocent from the irresponsible. Safety violations are addressed with fines, classes, and revocation of your license depending on the severity. This undoubtedly keeps us safer while we participate in what many of us unfortunately consider a necessity.

But to own a GUN specifically designed to KILL, and capable of killing dozens of people in a public place in a matter of minutes, you have to wait 10 days and spend about 1hr doing paperwork. I can pick one up here in Canada with no wait - they do the paperwork on -line for a gun while I payThere are no serious mental health exams, no periodic renewals with psych evaluations, no insurance, no safety checks, and no penalties for safety violations that potentially threaten the lives of others. That just seems irresponsible and illogical.Well, in Canada there is all that to get your driver's license or gun license. It varies from state-to-state in the US

I'm not saying we should ban guns... well, maybe the ones capable of killing dozens of innocent people before our responsible CCW citizens can act... I'm just saying we should give the issue some serious thought.We have had that since the 30's here in Canada. It has shaped our society to where my hunting guns have the same firepower as the guys in the shootouts in town between Hell's Angels and the other biker gang. So you are describing Canada just now. But the US isn't Canada and you can't turn a country 10 times the size of Canada, or even the State of California with a bigger population than Canada INTO Canada with laws. It sure would be nice though eh? If you think you can - go ahead. By all means, vote for it or do whatever you do to make changes in your society. I'm just looking at it from the outside wondering why you want to make changes in a way that has been ineffective in your society when you have methods of creating change that are effective. This isn't waving a magic wand and voila, you have change! This is applying it to your society. Who would have thought that the president who has relaxed gun laws a lot would have sold more guns than ever? Or that one shooting could have doubled the price of ammo in Canada? Or that one terrorist attack could have changed America so much? Laws were not the catalysts of change in these situations, people didn't vote for the kind of change that has been happening in the US. Why not realize how change really works in your country and use it to your advantage to decrease your gun crime rates instead of fighting for the ineffective things the media is telling you to do?



So I guess why I am bringing up both cars and heart disease - seemingly unrelated issues in a gun thread is that what I'm getting at, and I think what a lot of people want to see, is a change in your society. There are ways that your society can and has changed, and ways that haven't been effective. Simply put, why not use proven methods in your own society to make positive changes? You don't see fat people getting all up in arms about how they lowered heart disease and the push for healthier living - you didn't make federal laws against BMI's over 25, you just emphasized health and education and the positives - with a lot starting with kids. I know that as a kid my parents couldn't tell me NOT to do something, but if they kept me busy doing productive things, I wouldn't do those destructive things. It is human nature, we know how it works, we should use it!


What the gun law advocates are going for it making it slightly harder for new criminals to get new guns in the future. It doesn't do anything for the portion of the existing 310,000,000 people that already have guns and will have bad intentions in the future. Like saying we will address heart disease by writing laws to prevent any additional people in the future from eating fatty foods, living lazy lifestyles and getting heart disesase. Sure, it will help. I don't disagree. But it is lame when you look at how change could really be effected.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Dec 29, 2012 - 09:31pm PT
Alrighty then. Thanks.

Ron, do you think it is a good idea to allow just about anyone to get a tactical weapon in 30 min and then "lose" it and happen to "find" $6K? What neighborhood do you live in again? Si, habla Espanol!
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Dec 29, 2012 - 09:36pm PT
I just picked up a VEPR 12. (Piton Ron envy post to follow) Most interesting part of it to me was filling out the goverment form that wanted to know my race. It was mandatory, not voluntary, that I report my race to the government.

[Click to View YouTube Video]
jstan

climber
Dec 29, 2012 - 09:37pm PT
I bet 50 regular users here know my name. I like to speak freely because when you get a job nowadays, your web presence follows you around.

I think we all have to realize the internet gives us a deeper understanding of each other than was ever before possible. Back when I was working and deciding whom to hire, I really should have been mining the internet. It would have been a gold mine.
FRUMY

Trad climber
SHERMAN OAKS,CA
Dec 29, 2012 - 09:45pm PT
Actually it doesn't take two parties to have a Democracy. The founding fathers never thought there would be two parties.

But if one falls apart it will be replaced.

We could have many more than just two or as few as one. As long as the we are being represented it doesn't matter.

By the by - taking arms against our government is treason.

We have the right of recall & that replaced the right to over through our government.

prickle

Gym climber
globe,az
Dec 29, 2012 - 09:49pm PT
"libs hate the fact that abortion is basically the genocide of the black race...or do they?"

Hahahaha, no wonder you don't have the guts to use your real name

Are you just as much of a coward in real life as well?

there you go acting like a typical liberal

go on the attack when you hate the facts...this is why you people fail at everything.

lets see if you can work romney into your next post!
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Dec 29, 2012 - 09:49pm PT
you can get a tactical weapon here in about thirty minutes. IF you can find one now. thats wrapped bagged and tagged on the way home.

Hey these folks really are struggling against that tyranny you warn us about.


Can he have a tactical weapon in about thirty minutes?

prickle

Gym climber
globe,az
Dec 29, 2012 - 09:53pm PT
lol that's the best you can do! you must be a dumb liberal, you aren't even good at arguing on the internet!
tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Dec 29, 2012 - 10:04pm PT
Wow, can't argue with that! Maybe supertopo should put a minimum age limit on members.. (maturity limit?)
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Dec 29, 2012 - 10:06pm PT
Ron can handle himself. I am quite purposely no one's mommy!

Besides, I ain't tangling with a gun nutter. :) Haha!
tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Dec 29, 2012 - 10:11pm PT
I'm sure every soldier (or person confronted with an armed assailant) would love to hear you tell them that!
tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Dec 29, 2012 - 10:24pm PT
And your chances of being confronted by an armed assailant are infinitely greater because you support arming them in the first place, obviously.


Do you think that the Canadian gun laws which I support support your statement? C'mon, try to think about it...



What about the quarter million girls kidnapped and put into sex trafficking in the US last year? They weren't soldiers. But every single one of them wishes they had some sort of defense, even if it was the probability that they would have had a way to defend themselves. Remember, you are dealing with current reality right now -you aren't building a dreamland from scratch and implementing the rules from the beginning.
tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Dec 29, 2012 - 10:32pm PT
I'm talking about your situation in the year 2012 in the US. The situation I live in now is different than when I lived in the US, and our society functions better than yours in terms of gun violence. But adopting our laws isn't the same as adopting our way of life. You can't adopt our way of life by way of law. There are effective ways to change your society.



"WHat the HELL!??! Yeah, pretty crazy the stuff going on that nobody talks about eh?


tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Dec 29, 2012 - 10:37pm PT
I'm saying you have big problems. A law here or there isn't going to fix it. Taking guns away will cause more people to be victims in all aspects of society. Arming everyone is another step that will solve some problems and cause a lot of other problems just like limiting them will. You have to look at options that have worked for change in your society besides a pro-or con law , a liberal or conservative side, a repub or democrat choice.


If you are lost, if this is too hard to grasp, and you represent 47% of your society, I'm so sorry!
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Dec 29, 2012 - 10:40pm PT
You have to look at options that have worked for change in your society besides a pro-or con law , a liberal or conservative side, a repub or democrat choice.

ok tooth, I am interested in hearing your well considered thoughts and suggestions.....
tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Dec 29, 2012 - 10:47pm PT
Norton, I've put examples of the types of change that I have seen work in your society in this thread already.

Should I re-post?



Or do you want me to do the thinking and apply these types of changes to this situation and then have guys dismiss it all and not even think for themselves because they are able to argue with one aspect of what I type?



I'd rather get both the republicans and democrats and that one other liberal thinking about something constructive rather than acting like schoolchildren (jghedge)





But if it is more fun to pick sides and throw tomatoes at each other and resist working together as a society to make change, have at it. That seems to be working well for your government and the fiscal cliff eh?





EDIT: jghedge's previous post is a good example of this.



JG, I just got finished saying that arming or disarming has good and bad effects. Just because you can find 2 good examples doesn't mean that there aren't 2 bad ones. There are both. A million examples of both. Every year and in every state. Grow up man!
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Dec 29, 2012 - 11:00pm PT
Norton, I've put examples of the types of change that I have seen work in your society in this thread already.

Should I re-post?


please, and as specifically as you can

I am looking forward to learning exactly how we Americans can mitigate our mass murders, which IS the topic......thanks

and especially coming from a Canadian so knowledgeable about our "ways"
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Dec 29, 2012 - 11:01pm PT
Penn and Teller give a good representation of most of our views. 3 part harmony. Hedge, at @8:04 in the first part your question is answered.


[Click to View YouTube Video]

[Click to View YouTube Video]

[Click to View YouTube Video]
tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Dec 29, 2012 - 11:02pm PT
My argument is apparently lost on you - you are arguing pro/con gun control.


I'm presenting the idea that your society in it's current state has ways to change over the next generation that are better than the either side of the argument that you can't seem to get over. Maybe you can get your accountant to help you out!
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 29, 2012 - 11:03pm PT
Sheesh!
Just back from the Firebase and there's 170+ new posts! Too much to read.
Y'all must've figured something out by now, right?


Sad scene in front of the Moapa Indian fireworks and fire water store, a memorial shrine for the young indian that was shot dead there by tribal police days ago.
He was drunk. There was an escalating scene of confrontation. He came up with handgun and got off 2 shots.

Two months ago was worse. Another indian, a popular spirit dancer named Corey Kanosh was shot dead by a deputy. This one is under review.
He was unarmed!

But we should go ahead and ALWAYS trust that the cops will do the right thing (and also be there to protect us).




Got the drum to work flawlessly in the Suomi. Bump fired 72 rounds in about 20 second in a pretty tight cluster.
Momma said, "Don't you buy no ugly gun!" But she shoots purty.

Not so lucky with the Thompson which literally fell apart after 12 shots (good thing its under warranty).
Oh yeah, "all a person needs is one gun".

Right.


So whadjoo guys decide?



oops posted wrong thread
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Dec 29, 2012 - 11:15pm PT
tooth must have missed my reply:


Norton, I've put examples of the types of change that I have seen work in your society in this thread already.

Should I re-post?

please, and as specifically as you can

I am looking forward to learning exactly how we Americans can mitigate our mass murders, which IS the topic......thanks

and especially coming from a Canadian so knowledgeable about our "ways"
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Dec 29, 2012 - 11:22pm PT
calling tooth

replies requested from your learned self
tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Dec 29, 2012 - 11:32pm PT
Norton,

sorry, I was watching Penn and Teller.

One specific example is to use the same methods you used to change one very specific thing, heart disease. That has already saved more lives than gun control could if it worked 100%. How did you do it? Can those methods be used in any other situation?



Now I have a question for you? What else has changed in the US that has been a big improvement in society, and how was it done? All laws, some laws and some of something else? All of something else and only policy changes? Heck, how are most changes in society made? What differences in society are there? Where do they stem from? Raising kids has a lot to do with it. What about smoking? Has that changed lately? There is an example with a mix of policy changes (taxes) law changes (packaging) and societal changes (education and role models). But it took a generation.


Guns are different because they can kill people immediately and smoking takes a while. Guns are different because of what they can do compared to everything else in society. But people aren't different. People (society) is shaped and influenced the same regardless of the issue at hand, and it is people that you are dealing with, people shooting other people, not the inanimate object. So to make change you need to think more about people and how to change that aspect rather than the inanimate object and whether it has a 5-round or 25-round capacity etc. That is like banning cigars vs. cigarettes. People will either smoke more or get the cigars, you have to deal with the PEOPLE to get your society to the level of all those you envy or at least quote in your stats. Wouldn't that make more sense to 'mitigate mass murders' while also affecting murders, killings, violence, almost killings, and a host of other things while you are at it? Or will banning AR's do that? Hey, I don't have a horse in this race, none of your changes will affect me, but these simplistic arguments from both sides aren't going to make the changes you think it will, you won't turn into the UK or Canada in terms of gun violence just by adopting our laws.


ps. I spent the last 10 years in the US. I've got a pretty good idea of life in 3 states.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Dec 29, 2012 - 11:43pm PT
I am looking forward to learning exactly how we Americans can mitigate our mass murders, which IS the topic......thanks

No you're not. These endless debates always loose focus and quickly drive off the road into "gun violence" and "gun regulation" debacles.

Mass/random murder is it's own topic which several here have tried to discuss. But because of the tools/firearms involved in the recent case, that discussion becomes impossible. Now we've covered slavery, the 2nd, and armed insurrection.....

Critical thinking skills have left this planet.

Pointless really.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Dec 29, 2012 - 11:53pm PT
fear thoughtlessly said:

No you're not.

wrong, you do not know me or speak for me, you speak only for yourself

and yes, I AM interested in hearing the specifics that tooth has to offer

and guess what? I have no interest in anything you have to say
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Dec 29, 2012 - 11:58pm PT
tooth offered
So to make change you need to think more about people and how to change that aspect rather than the inanimate object and whether it has a 5-round or 25-round capacity etc.

seriously, I was hoping for specifics

just saying we Americans need to "think more about people", well, ok

after all of that criticism you started out with, I figured you had really thought this through and would eventually come forth with lots of concrete suggestions

disappointed, want to take another shot at it or is that all you got?
tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Dec 29, 2012 - 11:59pm PT
Drug addiction is another issue that has solely been treated as a crime unsuccessfully.

Treating it from multiple angles after the fact with MORE emphasis placed on raising our kids properly is going to reduce this problem as much as reasonably possible.





Not learning our lesson on how humans problems work from other issues and banging our head against the wall with mass shootings is kinda silly, isn't it?





You already have 22,000 gun laws according to Penn. If you want 50% improvement in your crime stats, or 95% to get to where the UK is, how many laws will do that for you?

How many laws need to be passed to get a criminal to obey?


How about creating less criminals in the first place? Leaving fewer kids lying around with video games is a corner of the solution, leaving less guns lying around easily accessible is one as well. There is no all-or-none solution, and no 99% effective solution either. But if you look at other examples of how society has been shaped/changed, you can figure out the most effective overall strategy to reduce a gun crime while at the same time effecting other positive changes.



Norton, if you want laws that you can argue with me about passing or changing, you won't get it. I'm simply saying that this isn't going to change faster or more efficiently than any of these other problems have if you don't use all the tools used to make the other changes. Passing a gun law isn't even using all the tools we know work.
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Dec 30, 2012 - 12:54am PT
I always refer to the lesson learned from the Dunblane massacre, and the successful solution that was implemented as a result, when asked for solutions to our gun problems

One lesson to learn from Dunblane is that a madman with simple handguns can kill an entire classroom of children and their teacher. Assault weapons are optional.

Another is that during the decade after UK banned handguns in response to this act of violence the use of guns in crime doubled (on a national average.) What actually happened was that in areas like Lancashire the use of guns by criminals skyrocketed by more than 600%.

I'm looking to find a breakdown of gun deaths in UK more locally, to identify the real trend. One thing is for sure, over time if the use of guns by bad guys is going up so will the death rate.

Hedge, give the whole Apache helicopter vs civilians with small arms thing a rest. If you really want to portray gun rights advocates as "nuts" with any credibility, you should not act like one yourself.

Good night.
zBrown

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Dec 30, 2012 - 01:20am PT
My eyes are weary. Can one of the brighter folks on this thread (you know who you are), please summarize where we are to date?

fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Dec 30, 2012 - 03:56pm PT
You forgot about the helicopters Hedge...
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Dec 30, 2012 - 04:14pm PT

Are gun control laws racist?


Higher Brady score = higher black homicide rate and lower (slightly) white homicide rate.

Guns sold /vs violent crime rate




Homicide rates, all UN members.



civilian gun ownership all UN members




http://pjmedia.com/blog/gun-control-fails-say-statistics-from-gun-control-advocates/?singlepage=true
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Dec 30, 2012 - 04:27pm PT
From the same article.

For the period of 2007-2010, RTC states’ mass murder rate averaged 0.057, a 31% drop from the 2000-2006 average. Non-RTC states’ averaged a 0.070 rate, an increase of 97% over the 2000-2006 period. For the period of 2000-2010, RTC states experienced a 59% drop in their mass murder rate, while non-RTC states’ rate more than doubled (111%):

RTC= Right to Carry
tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Dec 30, 2012 - 06:17pm PT
Gun ownership in the US = 9 guns per 10 people.


UK = 1.



Gun sales when Obama whispers about addressing mass killings this month ++++++++++



Gun sales when Obama made gun laws since 2008 __




So if a higher rate of gun ownership = higher rate of gun crime




and




talking about gun control = increase in gun ownership




and the laws Obama has allowed these past 4 years, which have made gun ownership easier - and you see gun crime decrease slightly (not anywhere near the countries you envy)





What do you think will be the real-world effects of saying NO, don't put your hand in the cookie jar? In YOUR country? Using this past month as evidence, not 30 years ago in a country on the other side of the planet?



It's going to take a lot more than just politicians making laws to fix your problem. You need the media to be helpful, you need families to raise their kids, NOT tv, you need, well, families. You need less rat race, less drugs, less medicating problems, less cities, more outdoors, more exercise, more serving people, less rat race, more paying attention to anything other than what the media throws at you.


#1 killer in the US is cardiovascular disease. This has been effectively reduced a lot. #32 is violence. Take a lesson from your successes at the top of the list to deal with the ones at the end of the list.






I think a lot of people are lazy. They are used to expecting the government to make a law and solve their problem for them. They are willing to give up rights and freedoms so they don't have to DO anything. They usually then just blame the opposing party when things don't turn out the way they had thought, and then do nothing again. I keep seeing it in your culture, you turn fingers toward each other then since you are mostly on one side or the other, red vs. blue. That's a pretty lazy approach I see, each side ignoring the big picture and pushing stupid little facts that DONT stand alone, stats like 35 in the UK, all mass murders in gun free zones, etc. Both sides are playing the same zero sum game.




But that's easier, right?


Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Dec 30, 2012 - 06:37pm PT
and the laws Obama has allowed these past 4 years, which have made gun ownership easier - and you see gun crime decrease slightly (not anywhere near the countries you envy)


so tooth,

please name and describe these supposedly meaningful and sweeping "gun laws" the President signed into law since 2008 that you apparently maintain had the effect of decreasing gun crime in the past three years?

thanks
tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Dec 30, 2012 - 06:41pm PT
I put zilch, no effect. Not minus signs. You should know the laws, and I'm sure you do, that he allowed to expire and/or change. Don't embarrass yourself by having a Canadian tell you. (national park gun laws, Amtrak gun laws...)


and jghedge, you are reading my logic wrong. If I had meant, 'don't do anything' that's what I would have said. I meant what I said - use the successes as a pattern for other situations. Your reading comprehension needs to increase to an adult level.



So besides reading comprehension issues and criticism, you haven't really said anything constructive.
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Dec 30, 2012 - 09:30pm PT
This one will really test the reading comprehension skills. A paper published in 2007 in the Harvard Journal of Law and Public Policy.

Link

MH I think you'll find this one interesting, there is a lot of comparative data across international lines.

About the authors:

                                                                           *Don B. Kates (LL.B., Yale, 1966) is an American criminologist and constitutional lawyer associated with the Pacific Research Institute, San Francisco.

** Gary Mauser (Ph.D., University of California, Irvine, 1970) is a Canadian criminologist and university professor at Simon Fraser University, Burnaby, BC Canada.


Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Dec 30, 2012 - 09:39pm PT
that's right tooth

inconsequential bills he signed into law, I agree


yet you thought them important enough to mention above as somehow relevant to your "point" relating them to gun crime increases and decreases

critical thinking skills in action

PS: your being "Canadian" has nothing to do with your credibility or lack of it while commenting on American gun culture, yet you repeatedly bring it up, again unrelated

tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Dec 30, 2012 - 09:41pm PT
I included them to show the effect of passing laws on overall crime and that it made virtually no difference thus the flatline, not a plus or negative sign. Your post shows that you agree with the point I made, even if you didn't get it.

I'm not bringing up Canadian for credibility. I'm discussing a topic and I want you to think about points instead of being able to throw me into one of the two groups you have and then just attack me because I'm pro/con dem/repub since that gets you nowhere.


Are you really reading all this into it - - - or just trying to argue superfluous points and avoid the issue?


DanaB

climber
CT
Dec 30, 2012 - 09:48pm PT
Mauser speaks out publicly against the United Nations Program of Action to Prevent, Combat and Eradicate the Illicit Trade in Small Arms and Light Weapons in All Its Aspects. He and others know the Program is a scam for an international body to curtail citizens’ gun rights by declaring certain of their activities “illicit.”

Kris, read up a little on these guys.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Dec 30, 2012 - 09:59pm PT
tooth,

you talk a lot of "fluff" with little specifics for reducing mass murders in USA

you bemoan kids watching video games for example, along with other vaguenesses

you state that passing more laws won't do any good because we already have lots of laws
and that has not stopped mass murders here

you seem to blame many aspects of American life or "culture"

You know what, tooth?

anyone can criticize the obvious, as you are good at doing

I have asked you to quit screwing around and get specific, one would have to believe that you who are so capable of criticizing and analysis who also be capable of concrete, reasonable, and EFFECTIVE suggestions as solutions to mitigate this problem.

Yet you have really not offered anything like that.

I HAVE, when are YOU planning on doing so?
tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Dec 30, 2012 - 10:13pm PT
So you agree that you are arguing useless aspects of an individual instead of the points that I'm making.

If my points aren't specific enough, it is because there isn't a specific enough demographic to apply them to. If I were to apply those points to myself I could be specific. You have a varied population and trying to fit everyone into specific laws means you will need more than the 22,000 gun laws you already have. Nobody is going to do that, if you can't apply principles to individual situations you will remain frustrated that I'm not giving you specific enough examples that you can apply to a situation that they wouldn't work in so that you can criticize them.


Of course, you are more comfortable just making laws, then forcing everyone to fit into your square hole. That's a pipe dream. It is easy to say that we should take away every gun and then there will be no gun violence. Nobody argues with that logic, but it isn't possible in real life. You sure have been very specific in this way, but based on the assumption that we live in some dream. Not the reality that there are 200,000 guns out there that won't be turned in no matter what.


If I were to use your logic specifically and apply it to the nation as a whole instead of just my kids, I would say that nobody plays a video game with a gun in it, nobody watches a movie with a gun in it, but every kid learns to hunt and use a gun as a tool from a young age. But we all know that not one of those 3 points is possible to do as a nation even though it has happened in my family.

You seem to try and draw out all-or-none arguments so that you can simply deny that it can be done, and yet you use the same arguments yourself.
Captain...or Skully

climber
Dec 30, 2012 - 10:33pm PT
Fix it or f*#k it, blowhards!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!If you can't fix it, then kindly shut the f*#k up..............................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................
tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Dec 30, 2012 - 11:10pm PT
I think some people are making arguments just for the sake of arguing. Pointless.



It is almost as pointless to make up rules, try them out, and see if they fix the problem.




I'm suggesting using guiding principles from current reactions in US society to come up with solutions that are as specific as the US population. If someone needs hand-holding and specific rules that will make them happy and solve all of the crime, they won't get it. Not here, and not in real life. The way these two guys are asking to be led through each argument instead of doing any critical thinking themselves is equivalent to hand-holding.
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Dec 30, 2012 - 11:19pm PT
You seem fixated on the deaths Hedge. Calculate this.

"This year will go down in history. For the first time, a civilized nation has full gun registration. Our streets will be safer, our police more efficient, and the world will follow our lead into the future."

Adolph Hitler, 1935
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Dec 30, 2012 - 11:51pm PT
From tooth:

I think some people are making arguments just for the sake of arguing. Pointless.

It is almost as pointless to make up rules, try them out, and see if they fix the problem.

Yep.

But that's the problem in this country. Just like there's a pill for everything, there must be a law too. With 1 in 5 on government cheese now(purchased on credit of course), the government has become parental. Daddy always has my best interests at heart after all.

This is different though in the sense a wedge is being driven on purpose. There's a lot of strange hate and anger with little focus, visible in these threads. We can't even come together as civil people and address the recent wave of mass killings. Instead we blame, we blame each other for the will of madmen. Christ there's talk of Civil War before legislation has even been passed! Combine this with certain financial distress or collapse and you have the perfect storm.

Anyway..

Everyone have a good New Year and hug your kids if you've got 'em.





monolith

climber
albany,ca
Dec 31, 2012 - 12:20am PT
Couchmaster tries again with his Hitler gun lie.

http://bytwerk.com/gpa/falsenaziquotations.htm

However, Hitler never said it, even though fabricated sources are sometimes provided.

Guns weren’t that much of a problem in the Nazi era (at least within the country...).

In fact, the Nazis liked guns, and started training kids early on in their use.

Sounds more like the NRA. You are quite gullible, Couchmaster.

http://www.natvan.com/national-vanguard/assorted/gunhitler.html
bit'er ol' guy

climber
the past
Dec 31, 2012 - 12:42am PT

GUNS ARE LAME-ASS.

THE BLOOD IS ON YOUR LIGHT WEIGHT CHICKEN SHhit SOFT WHITE HANDS.

WHAT A BUNCH OF LOSERS.

GET OFF ST AND GO KILL A SPARROW BAD ASSs.



SO WEAK. SO LAME.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Dec 31, 2012 - 06:08pm PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Jan 1, 2013 - 06:48pm PT
I ordered a new gun today.


I'm clearly not stable enough to be buying guns on a whim, yet it was sickeningly easy. WTF is wrong with this country?
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Jan 1, 2013 - 07:08pm PT
LOL, the UN is going to take our 2nd amendment rights. Classic rightwing nuttery.

You are pretty gullible too, Ron. Always nice to read your e-mail inbox here.
prickle

Gym climber
globe,az
Jan 1, 2013 - 07:28pm PT
I ordered a new gun today.


I'm clearly not stable enough to be buying guns on a whim, yet it was sickeningly easy. WTF is wrong with this country?


i just sent your post to the fbi
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jan 1, 2013 - 07:33pm PT
Yes, I am scared as hell about what President Obama is "doing" to take away my 2nd Amendment rights.


What was it again he was "doing"?


Oh yeah, now I remember,

After the mass murder 28 children and teachers, he said that we should be having a "national conversation", that we as a nation should try to "get together" and see if we can "do something" about all this.

Boy, does that kind of talk piss me off. I can just see my guns being taken away.

Only an ignorant, paranoid, and very naive person would conclude from what he said that he personally is "doing" something about my fuking 2nd Amendment "rights"
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jan 1, 2013 - 07:33pm PT
i just sent your post to the fbi

They won't care.

70K violations found on background checks, about half convicted felons stopped from purchasing a firearm

only 4000 deemed worthy of investigation

only 200 prosecutions.

https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/bjs/grants/234173.pdf
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Jan 1, 2013 - 07:38pm PT
The UN is not going to take away anything from American citizens,..



directly.

Instead, once they "decide" what kind of civil liberties countries can and cannot grant its own citizens in order for them to retain membership in the organization, the UN then hands the rabid anti-gun politicians a "justification" for their agenda.

Its fukking politics.














But how many gun related deaths were there in the UK?

:-(
prickle

Gym climber
globe,az
Jan 1, 2013 - 07:42pm PT
They won't care.

70K violations found on background checks, about half convicted felons stopped from purchasing a firearm

only 4000 deemed worthy of investigation

only 200 prosecutions.

https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/bjs/grants/234173.pdf

good point, now hand over control of your healthcare to the govt because they do everything so well...
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jan 2, 2013 - 03:19am PT
Ron, it is good to see that you are an advocate of breaking the law with respect to guns, as in the case of the British guy who killed the guy who was not threatening him. (ooops!)

Of course, he could have done what any rational person could have done, which was to call the police.

If he had fear, he could have bought a dog. Many people do that.

He could have had an alarm.

Pepper spray would have been very effective in this situation!

He could have blasted a horn. I've heard that burglars don't like loud noises, for some reason.

Instead of opening his door, he could have LOCKED his door.

Gosh, don't they teach cops about these things?????
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jan 2, 2013 - 03:21am PT
What is with that spammer and their phone spams?
barthenson burn in hell!

couchmaster

climber
pdx
Jan 2, 2013 - 11:32am PT
Ken


"No freeman shall ever be debarred the use of arms.
---Thomas Jefferson: Draft Virginia Constitution, 1776. "
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Jan 2, 2013 - 11:55am PT
the NYTimes had an interesting OpEd piece this morning by David Coles,
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/02/opinion/who-pays-for-the-right-to-bear-arms.html

I'm sure it has not real relevance in this "discussion" where people who have guns want to keep them claiming that it really is no problem for people to have an object whose sole purpose is to project a fatal strike.

But the article reminded me of a bit of history, which actually led to Gov. Regan signing in the most stringent gun laws of the nation at that time... and that was the Black Panthers arming themselves for rebellion, obviously exercising their 2nd Amendment Rights in a bid to overthrow a tyrannical government that was oppressing members of their community.


The article quips that perhaps the best way to get gun control laws passed in state legislatures is to remind people of these times... and times just after the Civil War where the Southern states passed a raft of gun control laws out of fear of the whites that the blacks would arm themselves, legally.

The article actually makes the point that there is a cost to having essentially free access to guns and that that cost is borne by the inner city poor, but that is not something that will have any sympathy from those on this forum advocating for the continued unrestricted access to lethal force.

Here is the original intent of the Founding Fathers?
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Jan 2, 2013 - 02:02pm PT
Hey Ron. I was in your hood the other day... lost my brand new S&W 9mm semiauto, which I legally acquired of course but did not register... I was pretty upset, until I "found" $1500 and a couple fresh tamales in a brown paper bag. All in all it was a pretty good day. I have no idea why anyone would want tighter gun regulations, it will only hurt us good Americans who love guns... and tamales.
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Jan 2, 2013 - 02:02pm PT
And another unanswered question.

Why is Ron so gullible?
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Jan 2, 2013 - 02:07pm PT
Sorry Ed, if you want to ban guns so that inner city Blacks stop killing each other, I'm not with you. Any thoughts on how educating these future model citizens better would be a better path?
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jan 2, 2013 - 02:07pm PT

Interesting perspective from an unlikely source.





http://english.pravda.ru/opinion/columnists/28-12-2012/123335-americans_guns-0/
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Jan 2, 2013 - 02:14pm PT
To this day, with the Soviet Union now dead 21 years, with a whole generation born and raised to adulthood without the SU, we are still denied our basic and traditional rights to self defense. Why? We are told that everyone would just start shooting each other and crime would be everywhere....but criminals are still armed and still murdering and to often, especially in the far regions, those criminals wear the uniforms of the police.

Pravda, truth indeed.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Jan 2, 2013 - 02:16pm PT
First paragraph of the article:

"These days, there are few few things to admire about the socialist, bankrupt and culturally degenerating USA, but at least so far, one thing remains: the right to bare arms and use deadly force to defend one's self and possessions."

I'm glad I have the right to bare arms. Long sleeve shirts on hot days are awful here.

Diction error aside, though, it certainly reflects a perspective rather different from most of ours.

John
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Jan 2, 2013 - 02:19pm PT

For those of us fighting for our traditional rights, the US 2nd Amendment is a rare light in an ever darkening room. Governments will use the excuse of trying to protect the people from maniacs and crime, but are in reality, it is the bureaucrats protecting their power and position. In all cases where guns are banned, gun crime continues and often increases. As for maniacs, be it nuts with cars (NYC, Chapel Hill NC), swords (Japan), knives (China) or home made bombs (everywhere), insane people strike. They throw acid (Pakistan, UK), they throw fire bombs (France), they attack. What is worse, is, that the best way to stop a maniac is not psychology or jail or "talking to them", it is a bullet in the head, that is why they are a maniac, because they are incapable of living in reality or stopping themselves.

Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Jan 2, 2013 - 02:27pm PT
Ed,, so by saying the Black Panthers have free access to guns , gun laws will somehow help that situation?

that wasn't my response, that was the response of the California State Government to the legal acquisition and possession of guns by the Black Panthers, the tightening of gun laws in the state, by a republican governor who you might have thought would have had a different view on liberties. His response apparently took into account just who should have liberties, and his conclusion was: not everyone.

His response, following the logic of some gun liberty advocates on this thread, could have been to tell everyone to arm themselves in self-defense. This would have fueled an "arm race" in which various factions made sure that they could counter the perceived threat of other factions with enough fire power to be a deterrent.

It is obvious (and it is obvious) that this is not a tenable position to take. The increase in arms leads to the use of arms in these situations, as it has in the inner city where arms are available and used. The better position is disarmament, which is what Gov. Regan essentially signed into law as an inducement to avoid an unnecessary diversion of law enforcement into a position of having to arm themselves in protection against all factions.

Right now the law enforcement organizations are spending money countering the proliferation of weapons that threaten the law enforcers, these are funds that do not go into other, perhaps more effective, means of law enforcement which do not require the use of lethal force, nor the confrontations involving lethal force.

I don't advocate for the current situation in which the inner city is left to govern itself by the use of easily available lethal force. The ease at which weapons are acquired, and the difficulties in enforcing the existing laws, should not be allowed to continue.

Tracking the evidentiary pathways of gun acquisition, e.g. by use of taggants in ammunition and weapon identification have been vociferously opposed by gun advocates as a potential infringement on their rights.

But let's remember that acts of rebellion are by nature illegal, certainly extra-legal, as they represent the act of a group against the prevailing government, which is installed, at least in this country, by the legal processes outlined in the Constitution. While acts of rebellion may eventually be seen as necessary, they cannot be viewed as legal.

One cannot read the 2nd Amendment as a license to engage in illegal activities, as rebellion would be.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Jan 2, 2013 - 02:36pm PT
Whatever, I bought it for just under $650 with tax and everything. I'd say $850 (plus 2 tamales) is pretty good for "losing" something. Besides, "those people" are really nice.
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Jan 2, 2013 - 02:38pm PT
Ron, you have 'questions' because you want desperately to believe it was a conspiracy to take your guns.

You've already asked some stupid questions an ex-LEO should have known the answer, like why was another adult handcuffed at a chaotic event.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Jan 2, 2013 - 02:40pm PT
Yeah, the motto may be to protect and serve, but the truth is that they can't be everywhere and a cop's traditional role is to deal with the mess.
dave729

Sport climber
Placer
Jan 2, 2013 - 02:49pm PT
Taggants! a crazy idea from the past discredited but comes up now and then. The well meaning gun control busy bodies cannot wrap their minds around the concept that criminals do not obey laws. No matter how many they pass.
Gary

Social climber
Right outside of Delacroix
Jan 2, 2013 - 02:52pm PT
From TGT's post:
This was, of course, when we were free under the Tsar.

WTF. Since when are serfs free? Nobody was "free" under the czar. The first of many inane statements.

Various armies, such as the Poles, during the Смута (Times of Troubles), or Napoleon, or the Germans even as the Tsarist state collapsed under the weight of WW1 and Wall Street monies, found that holding Russian lands was much much harder than taking them and taking was no easy walk in the park but a blood bath all its own. In holding, one faced an extremely well armed and aggressive population Hell bent on exterminating or driving out the aggressor.

The Germans didn't seem to have much trouble holding Russian lands after the Brest-Litvosk treaty, according to the histories I've read. Is there information to the contrary?

If it had not been for Washington's clandestine support of and for the Reds, history would have gone quite differently.

Is that why we sent the American Expeditionary Force North Russia to fight the Red Army? Because we supported them?

There is a lot of desire to bad mouth the Tsar, particularly by the Communists, who claim he was a tyrant, and yet under him we were armed and under the progressives disarmed.

This guy sounds like some monarchist apologist. Guess what, TGT, we kicked out the conservatives beloved George III a long time ago. That's mot gonna fly here.







TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jan 2, 2013 - 03:04pm PT
I said it was an,

Interesting perspective from an unlikely source.


How "progressive" of you to try to put words in someone else's mouth.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jan 2, 2013 - 03:28pm PT
Indian women want equalizers.


http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/delhi/Delhi-women-gun-for-licences-rape-triggers-big-rush-to-acquire-arms/articleshow/17836320.cms
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Jan 2, 2013 - 03:28pm PT
That's cuz no one else was arrested. Detained briefly, yes. Happens all the time at these events. Same happened at VA Tech. I sure wouldn't want to be in the media if I was detained either.

She was not planning on committing him. She was devoted to him and wanted to follow him to college or wherever to help him succeed.
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Jan 2, 2013 - 03:37pm PT
The reliable sources have backed away from that claim. Now we are left with the blogosphere echoing and enhancing falsehoods back and forth.
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Jan 2, 2013 - 03:42pm PT
Ed suggested:
"One cannot read the 2nd Amendment as a license to engage in illegal activities, as rebellion would be."

I disagree Ed, that's exactly what the 2nd amendment is. If you look at the Black Panthers manifesto, they achieved a lot of their goals.

or as Jefferson would say:
"A little rebellion now and then is a good thing and as necessary in the political world as storms in the physical.

THOMAS JEFFERSON, letter to James Madison, Jan. 30, 1787"







full quote from Monticello site:
"Societies exist under three forms sufficiently distinguishable. 1. Without government, as among our Indians. 2. Under governments wherein the will of every one has a just influence, as is the case in England in a slight degree, and in our states in a great one. 3. Under governments of force: as is the case in all other monarchies and in most of the other republics. To have an idea of the curse of existence under these last, they must be seen. It is a government of wolves over sheep. It is a problem, not clear in my mind, that the 1st. condition is not the best. But I believe it to be inconsistent with any great degree of population. The second state has a great deal of good in it. The mass of mankind under that enjoys a precious degree of liberty and happiness. It has it’s evils too: the principal of which is the turbulence to which it is subject. But weigh this against the oppressions of monarchy, and it becomes nothing. Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem. Even this evil is productive of good. It prevents the degeneracy of government, and nourishes a general attention to the public affairs. I hold it that a little rebellion now and then is a good thing, and as necessary in the political world as storms in the physical.[1] Unsuccesful rebellions indeed generally establish the incroachments on the rights of the people which have produced them. An observation of this truth should render honest republican governors so mild in their punishment of rebellions, as not to discourage them too much. It is a medecine necessary for the sound health of government." - Thomas Jefferson to James Madison, Paris, January 30, 1787[2]
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Jan 2, 2013 - 03:43pm PT
Face it mono, regardless of what you have heard, what credible witnesses have said, or any other facts that come to light, nothing counts as much as Ron's opinion. That's how LEOs work... if they end up being wrong, they just fix it in the report.
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Jan 2, 2013 - 03:45pm PT
Plenty of motive, Ron. He was psycho. Maybe on prescription drugs. Finally snapped. The mother was away for three days, then he shot her when she came back. Plenty of time to get at secured weapons, and stew alone over something.
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Jan 2, 2013 - 03:51pm PT
Once you commit that first heinous crime, like shooting your mother in the head multiple times, whatever follows is not much of a surprise.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Jan 2, 2013 - 04:32pm PT
How many thousands of violent heinous crimes are committed against someone the assailant personally had a problem with vs. psychotics killing random people/kids?

People murder people every second of every day. The VAST majority do not go kill random people and themselves afterwards. It's a huge step from killing someone you hate to killing random people you do not know.

I have yet to see a complete report of everything this kid was on, or anyone of the recent killers for that matter, including ones we KNOW were medicated (like Holmes). It's being covered up by lots and lots of green stuff. Nobody wants to say a damn thing.

They're even doing a DNA analysis on Adam L... What a waste. Everyone is dancing around the fact that we know certain chemicals can cause this exact behavior in any one of us.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Jan 2, 2013 - 04:36pm PT
Everyone is dancing around the fact that we know certain chemicals can cause this exact behavior in any one of us.

And that certain tools make this exact behavior much more destructive.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Jan 2, 2013 - 04:41pm PT
Taggants! a crazy idea from the past discredited but comes up now and then.
why is this a crazy idea? It would certainly provide information about where ammunition comes from, and also provide a tie between a shooter and the discharge. Seems to be a potential effective criminal prosecution technology.

As for rebellion being written into the 2nd Amendment, it is not... and while the "framers" talked a lot about rebellion "being good" it doesn't mean it is legal, or supported by the constitution, it is not.

The Shay's rebellion, which is the one Jefferson wrote about,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shay%27s_rebellion
happens before the current Constitution... and likely resulted in the strengthening of Federal power, not the diminishing of it... though STForum historians could probably weigh in on this...
jstan

climber
Jan 2, 2013 - 04:49pm PT
From Lanza's point of view it was just a suicide. That was the only death that mattered. You look at his history and what seems true is that he never really mattered. No one ever required anything of him. Well, he decided his exit would matter. He would fix that.

Even here on ST we have had situations where products of big pharma have caused devastation. These side effects are well known and have been a factor in similar events. Pull this up on the net and look at what you see.

Why are we not insisting the FDA look into this? Very seriously.

The industry value of these drugs is reported variously as between $3,000,0000,0000 and $10,000,000,000 a year. While their efficacy is under serious medical question.

The report below says 10% of our population has used these antidepressants, and use doubled in just ten years. If we say the chance of these killings occurs out at six sigma that comes to 30 people.

That's getting there. That's getting there.


http://health.usnews.com/health-news/family-health/brain-and-behavior/articles/2009/08/03/antidepressant-use-in-us-has-almost-doubled


By Amanda Gardner
HealthDay Reporter

MONDAY, Aug. 3 (HealthDay News) -- Antidepressant use among U.S. residents almost doubled between 1996 and 2005, along with a concurrent rise in the use of other psychotropic medications, a new report shows.

The increase seemed to span virtually all demographic groups.

"Over 10 percent of people over the age of 6 were receiving anti-depression medication. That strikes me as significant," said study author Dr. Mark Olfson, a professor of clinical psychiatry at Columbia University/New York State Psychiatric Institute in New York City.

According to background information in the study, antidepressants are now the most widely prescribed class of drugs in the United States. The expansion in use dates back to the 1980s, with the introduction of the antidepressant Prozac (fluoxetine).


fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Jan 2, 2013 - 05:02pm PT
Check out:

This is about the author behind the website:

http://davidhealy.org/the-story-of-ssri-stories/

Then read:

http://ssristories.com/index.html
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jan 3, 2013 - 12:33pm PT



You can get your own here.

http://northeasternsafetysupply.com/vmchk/Miscellaneous/Gun-Sign/flypage.tpl.html
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Jan 3, 2013 - 12:36pm PT
Thought this was an interesting article:

"According to the FBI annual crime statistics, the number of murders committed annually with hammers and clubs far outnumbers the number of murders committed with a rifle.

This is an interesting fact, particularly amid the Democrats' feverish push to ban many different rifles, ostensibly to keep us safe of course.

However, it appears the zeal of Sens. like Dianne Feinstein (D-CA) and Joe Manchin (D-WV) is misdirected. For in looking at the FBI numbers from 2005 to 2011, the number of murders by hammers and clubs consistently exceeds the number of murders committed with a rifle.

Think about it: In 2005, the number of murders committed with a rifle was 445, while the number of murders committed with hammers and clubs was 605. In 2006, the number of murders committed with a rifle was 438, while the number of murders committed with hammers and clubs was 618.

And so the list goes, with the actual numbers changing somewhat from year to year, yet the fact that more people are killed with blunt objects each year remains constant.

For example, in 2011, there was 323 murders committed with a rifle but 496 murders committed with hammers and clubs.

While the FBI makes is clear that some of the "murder by rifle" numbers could be adjusted up slightly, when you take into account murders with non-categorized types of guns, it does not change the fact that their annual reports consistently show more lives are taken each year with these blunt objects than are taken with Feinstein's dreaded rifle.

Another interesting fact: According to the FBI, nearly twice as many people are killed by hands and fists each year than are killed by murderers who use rifles.

The bottom line: A rifle ban is as illogical as it is unconstitutional. We face far greater danger from individuals armed with carpenters' tools and a caveman's stick.

And it seems fairly obvious that if more people had a gun, less people would be inclined to try to hit them in the head with a hammer."
TradEddie

Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
Jan 3, 2013 - 01:15pm PT
Thought this was an interesting article:
When was the last time someone entered a crowded place with a hammer and killed twenty people? How many people are accidentally killed by a hammer each year? There are far more blunt instruments in the world, so on a per-item basis, rifles are still much more dangerous, and I'm willing to bet that the proportion of murders vs. manslaughter is much higher for the rifle homicides.
Finally, if you assign the "type not stated" number in proportion to the stated types, then you don't just get a "slight increase", those numbers come much closer.

Still, rifles are not the biggest problem, but nobody ever said they were. The full content of those homicide statistics is much more troubling.

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2010/crime-in-the-u.s.-2010/tables/10shrtbl08.xls

TE
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Jan 3, 2013 - 01:29pm PT
There is no feverish push to ban many types of rifles. There is legitimate concern to consider banning assault rifles capable of killing dozens of people in minutes and/or make it harder for mentally unstable people to acquire them.
WBraun

climber
Jan 3, 2013 - 01:57pm PT
Anybody seen any bodies?

Lanza bodies? The mother and son?

Nope nothing, zilch, nada.

Only thing you all have seen is what you've been fed.

The herd is always fed by the farmer .......

splitter

Trad climber
Cali Hodad, surfing the galactic plane ~:~
Jan 3, 2013 - 02:15pm PT
WB - Anyone seen the bodies?

Really Werner, get a grip on things bro (reality)!

I am sure there are PLENTY of individuals that have seen THE bodies (unfortunately). And they probabaly work in a similar capacity as you. If you really wanted to see pictures, or speak to the first responders & various follow-up responders, etc, they would confirm the deaths. Or better yet, speak with their loved ones, I'm sure they have "seen their bodies"!!
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Jan 3, 2013 - 02:17pm PT
WB, why do you keep coming back to the trough? Aren't you full yet? Maybe you need to go walk some of it off?
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Jan 3, 2013 - 02:33pm PT
jstan,

The FDA keeps a very tight reign on antidepressants. The prescribing doctors, of course, still have discretion on their use.

I, for one, am very grateful for the existence of both doctors and antidepressants. As I've posted elsewhere, I suffer from an endogenous depression (i.e. unrelated to outside events or circumstances), and have been on medication since 2005. The only effects of that medication have been to eliminate the depression and to give me extremely entertaining dreams. I rather suspect that I will need medication for the rest of my life, but if that's what it takes to live normally, I'm happy.

Of course, I'm also very fortunate. I've had chats with at least one other poster who was prescribed the same medication I take, with bad results. I've heard enough other stories to convince me that the benefits of antidepressants are oversold. If I'm unhappy because my wife died, I probably don't need an antidepressant; I need time. If, as I was, I'm not only unhappy, but don't seem to give a rip about anything, for no good reason, that's where antidepressants may do some good, but the results appear to be highly idiosyncratic.

My personal take is that both antidepressants and their criticisms are exaggerated. For me, they were a magic bullet (pun intended on this thread) that has completely controlled my disease, but we still have a lot to learn about brain chemistry and how to manage it better.

John
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Jan 3, 2013 - 03:17pm PT
For all the Gun Nuts

[Click to View YouTube Video]


Simple examination shows you don't have the upper hand in an emergency
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Jan 3, 2013 - 03:25pm PT
It's about political freedom Jingy.

Not hunting.

Not defense.


This:
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government"
    Thomas Jefferson, 1 Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Hope that helps.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Jan 3, 2013 - 03:29pm PT
I no longer have the political freedom to tell jokes about bombs in airports or other public places... and my jokes don't have the potential to kill dozens of people in a matter of minutes. Thomas Jefferson never even saw a gun that could fire more than one shot without reloading. While I can appreciate his taste for French whores and such, his views about gun control are completely outdated and irrelevant.

So you can take your political freedom and stuff it!
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jan 3, 2013 - 03:30pm PT
That was a GREAT video!
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Jan 3, 2013 - 03:36pm PT
Not all gun owners want to carry a concealed weapon. I have no interest at all in carrying in urban areas or shopping malls etc. I prefer to be a bit selective about where I go, and the odds of being in a shootout in a public place are near zero despite the publicity such events generate. When I lived in NYC I got mugged a couple times. I am quite certain that my odds of walking away from those incidents would have been greatly reduced had I been carrying.

My brother earned his ccw living in a Boston suburb. He had to work very hard for it, and he had to jump through a lot of hoops. He actually saw it as a challenge and enjoyed the process and succeeding at it. Nevertheless he virtually never carries a weapon. Occasionally his business takes him to funky places sometime he'll carry then but usually not. He is an tactical instructor and practices a lot.

couchmaster

climber
pdx
Jan 3, 2013 - 03:54pm PT
Mewes said:
"I no longer have the political freedom to tell jokes about bombs in airports or other public places..."

You might not be aware that you can't yell FIRE in a crowded theater either, and in fact, political discourse or merely having an irresponsible parent can now get you murdered/executed based on President Obama's desire and without due process these days as well. No judicial review. You might think that's a good thing. I don't.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/10/24/robert-gibbs-anwar-al-awlaki_n_2012438.html

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/01/02/targeted-killing-program-_n_2398805.html



Turkeydick said:
"So you can take your political freedom and stuff it! "
Nope, I won't be stuffing anything. I still want political freedom, even if you don't give a sh#t.

monolith

climber
albany,ca
Jan 3, 2013 - 04:06pm PT
Americans getting killed in foreign terrorist training camps?

What a shocking loss of political freedom.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Jan 3, 2013 - 04:09pm PT
You might not be aware that you can't yell FIRE in a crowded theater either

What about in a theater with only 1 or 2... or 10 people?



Yeah mono, crazy isn't it? I don't mind my right to tell bomb jokes in airports being stripped for the good of society. I do mind idiots pretending Jefferson has some kind of relevant insight into the perceived "right" for everyone to have unfettered access to assault rifles.
dirt claud

Social climber
san diego,ca
Jan 3, 2013 - 05:03pm PT
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Jan 3, 2013 - 05:24pm PT
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jan 3, 2013 - 06:05pm PT
You might not be aware that you can't yell FIRE in a crowded theater either, and in fact, political discourse or merely having an irresponsible parent can now get you murdered/executed based on President Obama's desire and without due process these days as well. No judicial review. You might think that's a good thing. I don't.


Couchmaster, you are too cute by a mile.

You are saying, that when you embark on a program to kill Americans in a terrorist program, if you are also an American, and you flee the country to a country where you can avoid extradition.....

You are home free? You can continue to take part in your activities designed to kill innocent (or even non-innocent, by which I mean military) Americans, and are thereby untouchable?
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jan 3, 2013 - 06:20pm PT
This section of an excellent NDAA summary seems pertinent on this thread:

Does anyone dispute the "facts" below?

Summary
The 2012 National Defense Authorization Act (NDAA) is the yearly bill to provide funding for the military and defense related items. The 2012 version of this legislation was controversial due to provisions dealing with arrest and detention of terrorists and those affiliated with al-Qaeda.

The legislation affirms that the President has the authority to detain enemy combatants captured on the battlefield under the 2001 authorization for the use of force against the Taliban and al-Qaeda. It then defines those who can be detained as "covered persons" and establishes this group as anyone affiliated with al-Qaeda or the Taliban. The legislation also states that those people can be held until the end of hostilities, until a tribunal with proper authority is established, or until those people are transferred to the proper authority.

Prior to this legislation, a US citizen accused of being allied with al Qaeda or plotting terrorist activity was considered to have committed a crime. Being accused of a crime, these people had civil rights relating to access to a lawyer and the right to remain silent. Floor statements made by Senators indicate that the legislation is intended to change this so that anyone accused of terrorist activity has not committed a crime, but has committed an act of war. In doing this, they do not have the right to remain silent or access a lawyer. In this manner, they can be held indefinitely without the right end this questioning.
This change in classification is accomplished by classifying the US as a battlefield in the war on terror. The legislation uses the phrase "affirms" when discussing the executive power because the power of the President to arrest and detain enemy combatants on a battlefield is already established. In the case of Jose Padilla and in previous cases during WWII, it was shown that the President can indeed arrest and detain US citizens captured on US soil aiding the enemy in a time of war. However, in the Padilla case, the courts held that since the US is not a battlefield in the war on terror, Padilla must be granted habaes corpus rights and tried as a criminal in the civilian courts. Eventually, Padilla was sentenced to 17 years for his actions.

One section of the legislation states that nothing in the bill is intended to change existing laws with respect to the arrest and detention of US citizens. This has led to a belief that the bill states that it does not apply to US citizens. This is not the case. That section states that current law is not changed by the legislation, but current law already holds that the President already has the power to arrest and indefinitely detain unlawful enemy combatants captured on the battlefield. This legislation merely adds the US homeland as a battlefield and affirms the Presidents authority under that law. Therefore the effect of the law on US citizens is changed without changing the law itself.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Jan 3, 2013 - 07:31pm PT
I'm with Norton on this one. I'm unaware of any authorization for premeditated killing of American citizens on American soil without due process in the Act.

John
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Jan 3, 2013 - 07:37pm PT
Regardless, nothing you can buy at Walmart would ever protect you against a drone strike. The notion of needing guns to defend yourself against a tyrannical government is silly. There is nothing silly about the fact that those guns can kill dozens of people in a matter of minutes and they are regulated less than cars.
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Jan 3, 2013 - 07:47pm PT
That video was great! I'm gonna sell all my guns, cancel my ccw, and just use my cell phone to phone the police in case of emergency.
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Jan 3, 2013 - 07:55pm PT
So don't make yourself a target.

Don't be a threat.

Easy.

Just because you own a firearm doesn't mean you're a threat.

Look at ELF. Or Weibo Ludwig. No firearms there.
Dropline

Mountain climber
Somewhere Up There
Jan 3, 2013 - 08:00pm PT
That was a GREAT video!

It's a silly video choreographed to make the "trainees" fail.

When trained the trainees were wearing neither helmets nor gloves.

Just before the "assailants" entered the room the trainees were instructed to don helmets which prevented them from seeing their firearms, and gloves which prevented from feeling their firearms.

They were required to wear a long shirt which covered and clung to their firearms.

The assailants focused their fire on the trainees to the exclusion of everyone else in the room.

I'm not underestimating or understating the difficulty of returning accurate and effective fire in a real life scenario, just pointing out that this is a foolish film and the trainees were manipulated to ensure failure.

michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Jan 3, 2013 - 08:01pm PT
It was also a joke in that video, that immediately after the "teacher" was killed, the gunmen aimed directly at the "CCW" holder. Not at any of the students running directly by him. Kind of a bunk report.

Put that CCW somewhere where the shooter doesn't know, and don't put a beginner in there, and the odds will change drastically.

F*cking bullsh*t one sided report.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Jan 3, 2013 - 08:02pm PT
blahblahblah... and the "shooter" was moving pretty slowly... totally unrealistic... IRL any CCW permittee totally would have saved the day. Remember the CCW permittee that was there when Gabby was shot? Yeah, he did nothing... except almost shoot the guy who wrestled the gun away from the dickhole.

We definitely need more guns in schools and other public places.
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Jan 3, 2013 - 08:05pm PT
Or that teacher can lock the door like any other college. Preventing any students from coming in after the class begins.


LOLLIBERALTW#TS.
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Jan 3, 2013 - 08:15pm PT
Then the shooter will just wait for class change, or go in at beginning of class. Or outdoor PE class, cafeteria, lecture halls, etc,.......

Such worthless suggestions from gun nuts.
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Jan 3, 2013 - 08:17pm PT
And being defenseless is a much better situation to be in.

You may not understand our thinking.

We definitely don't understand yours.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Jan 3, 2013 - 08:25pm PT
You are correct, I don't understand how you live your life in fear of others with guns, yet insist on having unfettered access to them. Or how you can justify having fewer regulations to own a tool designed to kill than to own a car. Or how you can continue to insist that gun regulations will not help the situation, when most (all?) of the guns used in recent mass shootings were acquired legally and stored irresponsibly... and NOT bought off the streets by criminals.

And you will never understand that NOBODY I know has ever had to pull a gun, except my brother-in-law who is a cop... who also believes gun laws are absurdly lax and getting a CCW after taking a 2 hour class is FUKING RETARDED.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Jan 3, 2013 - 08:31pm PT
I remember that video from a few years ago. So they pointed out that if a guy comes into a room shooting and you're sitting right in front of him wearing gloves with your concealed firearm secured under a baggy shirt that you're likely to be shot.

Yup. Pretty much. Does that surprise anyone? It's suppose to hammer home that "regular people" are hopeless. Rest assured that the police will be there in 15 minutes to put pieces of your skull in a bag. Typical MSM bullsh#t.

All a concealed pistol offers a trained individual is a chance in the right situation. It doesn't mean all situations will be right.

Hence the enormous amount of ongoing training I try to stress is important to be effective 'if' you choose to draw your weapon. What you wear, how you holster your weapon, and where you sit in a public place are all choices you make. You'll be functioning at 30% capacity or less under REAL stress so those choices and that training in some friendly competition are key.

It gives sheep a small chance to kill wolves. I'll take that over no chance anyday. But as we can see here, not all sheep make that choice. They have their own reasons. And that's just fine. Really.

Never had to kill a wolf myself. Hope I never run into one. I hope that if I did I'd be able to make a difference. I hope I wouldn't run away if I had a clear target and background, but was just scared shitless. I don't really know.
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Jan 3, 2013 - 08:34pm PT
They all had gloves. And you can't see the gun when they are sitting. Only when they stand and try to get it. And they knew they would be tested that day, just not that soon.
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Jan 3, 2013 - 08:34pm PT
You are correct, I don't understand how you live your life in fear of others with guns, yet insist on having unfettered access to them.



So if someone breaks into my house with a knife or baseball bat, i'm not scared? Should I bring out my Louisville Slugger too?




Or how you can justify having fewer regulations to own a tool designed to kill than to own a car.


There needs to be stronger regulations. I've never once stated, that there should be fewer. IN FACT, I have stated that there should be stricter laws, but HIPPA restricts information to the DMV, so people with mental health problems can register a gun.



Or how you can continue to insist that gun regulation will not help the situation, when most (all?) of the guns used in recent mass shootings were acquired legally and stored irresponsibly... and NOT bought off the streets by criminals.

Adam (Newtown) shot his mother 4 times in the face because she failed to properly secure her legally owner firearms from her mentally unstable child.

James (Aurora) begged and begged for mental help. Was institutionalized, and was a high threat to others, but nobody would help him. (Revert back to HIPPA)


And you will never understand that NOBODY I know has ever had to pull a gun, except my brother-in-law who is a cop... who also believes gun laws are absurdly easy and getting a CCW after taking a 2 hour class is FUKING RETARDED.


Well, in CA it's a 16 hour class, but it's still pretty easy.
Most cops, don't like others having guns, or authority.
Most cops can't automatically appear in a class room where a gunman is plugging 6 year olds with .223.

You're very lucky to know so many few people who've not had to pull guns.

Preparedness is useless after tragedy.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Jan 3, 2013 - 08:35pm PT
Hence the enormous amount of ongoing training I try to stress...

Try to stress it all you want. Fact remains a dipshit like me can get a CCW after taking a 2 hour class. No renewals, no mental evaluations, no insurance, no requirements on how I store them. THAT JUST AIN'T RIGHT.
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Jan 3, 2013 - 08:37pm PT
So blame guns?


Not the system?
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Jan 3, 2013 - 08:40pm PT
Yep, Cragmen, all showing that one may be able to end a mass shooting, after multiple people are dead and wounded. Awesome. And no assault weapons needed.
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Jan 3, 2013 - 08:41pm PT
jesus christ.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Jan 3, 2013 - 08:41pm PT
Get off the "blame inanimate objects" crap. Nobody has ever tried to pin a murder on an inanimate object. That is absurd.
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Jan 3, 2013 - 08:42pm PT
If guns don't kill people, then guns don't make you safe.

For those who want trite one-liners.
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Jan 3, 2013 - 08:44pm PT
you're clearly a f*cking idiot.


michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Jan 3, 2013 - 08:46pm PT
Let's ban all guns. Law abiding citizens turn them in. Even ones who vowed they never would. Now there are no registered hand guns in America.

K now what?
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Jan 3, 2013 - 08:46pm PT
Can't have it both ways. If gun's don't kill people, only people kill people, then guns don't save people either, people save themselves.

See how stupid the 'guns don't kill people' saying is?

I didn't think so.

People use guns to kill and defend.
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Jan 3, 2013 - 08:47pm PT
Wait, LOLOLOL. Chicago, perfect example.


Not everyone is a 60 year old, has-been 5.7 trad climber, who lives in the bushes.


monolith

climber
albany,ca
Jan 3, 2013 - 08:50pm PT
Let's ban all guns

Keep making stuff up.
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Jan 3, 2013 - 08:51pm PT
What do you suggest happens then?

You seem to be full of ideas. (Not really.)
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Jan 3, 2013 - 08:54pm PT
Let's ban all guns. Law abiding citizens turn them in.

Nobody ever said that. But how about AT LEAST as much regulation as operating a car?

Tell me, where do criminals get their guns? Where do they ultimately come from? And remember, the "favorite" gun used in crimes is a S&W... NOT some foreign bullshit counter fit.

You don't think regulations would help with this:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/guns/procon/guns.html
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Jan 3, 2013 - 08:54pm PT
... Ya.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Jan 3, 2013 - 08:58pm PT


Hence the enormous amount of ongoing training I try to stress...

Try to stress it all you want. Fact remains a dipshit like me can get a CCW after taking a 2 hour class. No renewals, no mental evaluations, no insurance. THAT JUST AIN'T RIGHT.


You're not a dipshit because you see some of the requirements.

Education is the key here, not more laws. You can't enforce common sense but you CAN educate people.

I agree fully with that real training is essential to effectively carry concealed. Too often what I see are people who buy small handguns out of fear. They think after a couple of boxes of ammo at the range that they're fine and 'trained'.

It's a lifestyle choice. Like climbing, it's something that you need to practice quite a bit and actually enjoy doing. That takes time, money, and commitment. It ain't rocket science.

I've talked a lot of women out of getting their carry license and a handful of guys. It's not for everyone.

BTW, women are the best novice shots hands down. In my experience they also operate better under stress..
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Jan 3, 2013 - 08:58pm PT
Hey Ron, you should read that article I posted:

"According to a 1994 ATF study on "Sources of Crime Guns in Southern California," many straw purchases are conducted in an openly "suggestive" manner where two people walk into a gun store, one selects a firearm, and then the other uses identification for the purchase and pays for the gun. Or, several underage people walk into a store and an adult with them makes the purchases. Both of these are illegal activities."
Gary

Social climber
Right outside of Delacroix
Jan 3, 2013 - 09:00pm PT
"I don't remember the NRA saying that black teenagers
should all be armed after Trayvon Martin was murdered."

Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jan 3, 2013 - 09:04pm PT
I have a CCL, I carry a 9mm inside my belt almost all day when I am out.

It is absurd, paranoid, childish, to keep screaming that my guns are going to be "taken away".

NO ONE is talking about taking guns away from people who legally own them.

NO ONE is going to come to your home and take away your god damn guns.

What SOME people are suggesting is that perhaps after much discussion maybe we can arrive at a way to mitigate mass murder WITHOUT TAKING YOUR GUNS AWAY

still don't get it yet?

michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Jan 3, 2013 - 09:06pm PT
They won't take away the guns.
TradEddie

Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
Jan 3, 2013 - 11:15pm PT
2500 times last year alone legal gun owners stopped violent crime when confronted with it long before any police assistance ...

So? There are well over a million "Violent Crimes" every year, 2500 is hardly enough to even be a rounding error. How many violent crimes were stopped simply by the victim running away?

In 2009 there were 23,237 accidental non-fatal gunshot injuries.

Want to keep playing pointless stats ping pong?

TE
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Jan 4, 2013 - 09:39am PT
I'm with that Bruce and it's a huge issue. I joined a range that recycles the lead out of the berms (which is only better, not perfect) and has filters on the air scrubbers for the indoor range so as to minimize spreading that stuff around the woods. Lead fishing weights from broken tackle getting left in the water is a big, perhaps bigger issue, as well IMO.
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Jan 4, 2013 - 10:06am PT
It's that damn LIBERUL media again. A conservative media outlet like Fox would never portray violence in a gratuitous manner.
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Jan 4, 2013 - 10:15am PT
Including the conservative media. (the biggest network, btw)

Wake up.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Jan 4, 2013 - 10:57am PT
I've always found in interesting that in the US, I can watch an Afghan's head getting blown off (aka "a terrorist") on CNN but I can't see a woman's breast or hear the word "F!ck"

Another great example where Federal laws don't make any sense.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Jan 4, 2013 - 11:15am PT
the "favorite" gun used in crimes is a S&W... NOT some foreign bullshit counter fit.

Huh?

counter fit?
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Jan 4, 2013 - 11:20am PT
the "favorite" gun used in crimes is a S&W... NOT some foreign bullshit counter fit.

Huh?

counter fit?

I just ignored it. It hurt my head less.


The media is such a f*cking propaganda machine, if you disagree you're helpless.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Jan 4, 2013 - 12:03pm PT
hahahaaa CRAGMAN... I consider myself a liberal and I have never even heard of that movie. The last time I watched a movie like that was when I was about 10 years old, at my cousin's house, they watched 3-5 of those movies a month... they are all EXTREMELY RELIGIOUS, EXTREMELY CONSERVATIVE, AND EXTREMELY RACISTS. They all love their guns, god, and every kind of oil burning machine imaginable. They are "good" Uhmerikuhns.

Stallone = liberal media?

hahah
ahahahahahahhaha
aahhahahahahahahahahh
ahahahhahahahahhaaaaaaaaaaa



S&W counterfit: yeah, whatever... I was going off of what the other Ron said over and over... something about all the gangsters using imported cheap knockoffs blah blah blah.

Please don't avoid the question because I am truly curious. According to the US ATF, via Time, the most popular gun used in crimes is a S&W .38 (http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,320383,00.html);. Presumably these are originally sold legally. So how do they get into the hands of criminals? That many cannot be stolen from people's houses.

The frontline article I posted earlier says the majority are acquired through "straw purchases." Please read and tell me how stricter gun regulations would NOT help reduce those acquisitions. http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/guns/procon/guns.html

Here's another source: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/guns/procon/guns.html



So why all the resistance to increased gun control? The gov isn't coming after your guns. You couldn't defend yourself against the gov even if they did. If you are a responsible gun lover then presumably you already have a gun to protect your home, could easily pass any tests or evaluations required, and KNOW well in advance of your purchase that you want more guns. So why do you oppose increased regulations (evaluations, tests, classes, background checks, insurance, whatever... something... anything that might have any effect)? Is it that you don't want to be inconvenienced? Even if it means preventing 1 Sandy Hook type shooting every 10 years... isn't THAT alone worth it?
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Jan 4, 2013 - 12:08pm PT
Don't forget about that well-known liberal, Schwarzenegger.

michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Jan 4, 2013 - 12:18pm PT
What are you f*#k heads talking about?


Liberal media = Pierce Morgan, CNN, whoever recites Nancy Pelosi policies.


You guys don't use your brains.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Jan 4, 2013 - 12:31pm PT
michaeld, please don't go off on the liberal media strawman bullsh#t. I don't own a TV and I certainly don't watch the "news" and I don't read a regular newspaper. When I want to learn something I read a minimum of 3-5 sources and do follow up research. That has me reading everything from the Washington Times to National Review to Aljazeera to Frontline. But usually I stick to scientific literature and government statistics.

I would appreciate it if you would answer the questions. I really am trying to figure out why people who love guns are so against ANY further regulation. And how they can flippantly regurgitate the "don't blame the guns" or "guns don't kill people" crap in the face of a tragedy... rather than admit that NEVER would have happened with a knife or a club or anything other than a gun.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jan 4, 2013 - 12:38pm PT
I really am trying to figure out why people who love guns are so against ANY further regulation

unfounded Slippery Slope fear

FEAR

irrational FEAR

remember the 1940s movie Reeder Madness?

If you smoke one joint you WILL become a Heroin addict.

ANY additional legislation to mitigate mass murder means they WILL come for MY guns.
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Jan 4, 2013 - 12:38pm PT
I would appreciate it if you would answer the questions. I really am trying to figure out why people who love guns are so against ANY further regulation. And how they can flippantly regurgitate the "don't blame the guns" or "guns don't kill people" crap in the face of a tragedy... rather than admit that NEVER would have happened with a knife or a club or anything other than a gun.


Go back a few pages and read how I AM FOR more regulation.


Your kid gets killed in a car accident because an alcoholic, who's been previously cited for DUI's and public drunkeness, decides to plow into the side of your kid going 95+ after downing 2 bottles of Jack and topped it off with some Patron.

Lucky for him, he's in a big ass Chevy Tahoe, unfortunately for your little Timmy, he was in a Geo Metro.

Let's blame Chevy.


The same day, in China, a man went into a classroom and did the same thing with a knife.

Oh wait, the kids didn't die, so it's perfectly okay.

michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Jan 4, 2013 - 12:43pm PT
Sigh.
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Jan 4, 2013 - 12:52pm PT
Responsibility gets you down, huh?

Keep typing the same, sad lines, dude.


Emphasis on responsibility, please.

----------------------------------------------------------



Meschrist, the children still got stabbed.

Am I the only person here, who sees something wrong with that?

Just because they didn't die, it must be so much better?


THE MAN WHO STABBED THE F*CK OUT OF A BUNCH OF LITTLE KIDS IN CHINA, AND THE BAT SH#T INSANE KID IN CT WHO SHOT THE SH*T OUT OF A BUNCH OF LITTLE KIDS, WERE BOTH, MENTALLY F*CKING INSANE.


But, as long as they don't kill anyone, it's okay...
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jan 4, 2013 - 12:54pm PT
Let's take a vote:


I say NOTHING, no legislation will be passed.

Prediction: We will go through MANY more mass murders before ANY bill is passed.

Because FEAR rules, not the fear of mass murder, but the fear of Slippery Slope

The dumbfuks are in charge, and they are OWNED by other dumbfuks
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Jan 4, 2013 - 12:56pm PT
Blame the product not the user.
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Jan 4, 2013 - 12:56pm PT
I'm gonna go sue McDonalds because they got me fat.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Jan 4, 2013 - 12:59pm PT
Meschrist, the children still got stabbed.

Am I the only person here, who sees something wrong with that?

Just because they didn't die, it must be so much better?

I don't know what to say. If you honestly don't think it is way better for the families and the kids and society that they did not die, I'm at a loss for words.

Of course it fuking sucks. Nobody said it didn't suck. But how could anyone possibly argue that the outcome was not WAY better than if all those kids had been filled with 5-10 bullets each? It is sickening, pathetic, and ignorant to suggest the two outcomes are on par with with each other... and even more so to suggest that acknowledging that one had a better outcome than the other means we see nothing wrong with kids getting stabbed.



And there you go again with the flippant, illogical horseshit that makes it impossible to discuss this topic with your side. You getting fat at McD;s is a little different than someone coming in and shooting 26 people.
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Jan 4, 2013 - 01:02pm PT
Meschrist, the children still got stabbed.

Am I the only person here, who sees something wrong with that?

Just because they didn't die, it must be so much better?

I don't know what to say. If you honestly don't think it is way better for the families and the kids and society that they did not die, I'm at a loss for words.

Of course it fuking sucks. Nobody said it didn't suck. But how could anyone possibly argue that the outcome was not WAY better than if all those kids had been killed? It is sickening, pathetic, and ignorant to suggest the two outcomes are on par with with each other... and even more so to suggest that acknowledging that means we see nothing wrong with the stabbing.



There you go again, flipping my words. I NEVER ONCE STATED, that it is TERRIBLE THE KIDS DID NOT DIE, EVER. This sort of tragedy, NO MATTER THE OUTCOME, should NOT happen in the first place. BUT IT DOES.



mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Jan 4, 2013 - 01:08pm PT
...and when it happens with guns, it is WAY worse.

Just because they didn't die, it must be so much better?

YES!!!! Just because they didn't die, it IS ABSOLUTELY 1000% better.
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Jan 4, 2013 - 01:11pm PT
"I really am trying to figure out why people who love guns are so against ANY further regulation."

Go back and read my posts. If you are still confused why I will go in depth.




"And how they can flippantly regurgitate the "don't blame the guns" or "guns don't kill people" crap in the face of a tragedy... rather than admit that NEVER would have happened with a knife or a club or anything other than a gun."

That ain't me saying that babe. But along those lines I would advise you to look at Mexico, where they have strong gun control laws and yet still have out of control kidnapping and other crimes that involve guns and suggest to you that all the gun regulation in the world won't get criminals to stop being criminals. There were over a million angry (but impotent) citizens march in Mexico City complaining about the daily kidnappings. There are several things we can do that would be much more effective, also go reread my posts for that, why keep repeating myself as you don't seem to read anything that doesn't already fit what you think should be in your version of reality. It's a complex issue that won't fit into a 2 sentence sound bite that your attention span seems to require.

michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Jan 4, 2013 - 01:16pm PT
Maybe if we rose taxes for %40 to pay for more police, crime would be lower.
And didn't give welfare to just anyone.

Until then.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jan 4, 2013 - 01:19pm PT
I don't blame the "product", guns.


But I do blame the easy availability of certain kinds of military style assault guns

I blame guns shows and private sales for not requiring ANY background checks

I blame the NRA for giving tens of millions to buy Republican politician's votes that favor absolutely no reasonable restrictions on background checks.

Why wouldn't ANYONE feel the same

No, the feds are not coming for YOUR guns, get it yet?

Wayno

Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
Jan 4, 2013 - 01:20pm PT
why keep repeating myself as you don't seem to read anything that doesn't already fit what you think should be in your version of reality.

the most poignant thing anyone on these type of threads has written

Let it go.
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Jan 4, 2013 - 01:22pm PT
Every time I've done PPT, it's the same background check as from a store.

I'm not following you Norton. Cali has a bunch of useless steps to go through to get a gun.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Jan 4, 2013 - 01:52pm PT
But along those lines I would advise you to look at Mexico, where they have strong gun control laws and...

a very corrupt government. Come on man! Same old bullsh#t. You can throw out Mexico, and I can throw out Germany... blah blah blah.


When it comes down to it what is the number 1 reason we should not have stricter requirements to get guns?

A) Because you say it won't work so what's the point
B) You don't want to be inconvenienced
C) Guns don't kill people so there is no point in regulating who has access to them
D) You can provide a country or two (which have very corrupt governments) in which gun regulations are ineffective
E) FILL IN THE BLANK




Maybe if we rose taxes for %40 to pay for more police, crime would be lower.
And didn't give welfare to just anyone.

Until then.

Until then, what? There is no point in trying to do anything?
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Jan 4, 2013 - 01:54pm PT
What do you suggest happen, Mechrist?
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Jan 4, 2013 - 02:24pm PT
So what, let me be ignorant and say;

"Like who is going to buy a gun to shoot anyone?"


So if I paid insurance, it'd stop me from wanting to shoot anyone in the face? How does that add up...

---------------------


A prosecutor can build a case off anything. That post is nothing.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Jan 4, 2013 - 02:24pm PT
Wes,

The issue for me is one of transition. We could pass all kinds of laws making firearm ownership more restrictive, and law-abiding citizens will follow them. What about those who won't? How will that change the balance in an otherwise free society?

In a way, it's like those problems where you have a two-person canoe and a group of cannibals and missionaries that need to cross a stream. If there are more cannibals than missionaries on either shore, the missionaries become meals. How do you get them across? If at some point between our current 300,000,000 or so firearms and the desired distributions of firearms, violent criminals have a much greater percentage of the weapons in circulation than they do now, what happens?

It's that issue that leads to the slogans about criminals and guns, and it's that issue that I seldom see advocates of stricter controls address. I don't think we can have a meaningful discussion without addressing that issue.

Now your insurance point, on the other hand, is a good one, and well within existing tort reality. If I am negligent, and my negligence is the proximate cause of injury of another, I am liable. If I engage in an ultrahazardous activity, and that activity is the proximate cause of another's injury, I am liable. If firearms owners can't get insurance, or if (much more likely) any insurer starts to require certain conditions for the insurance to be in effect (e.g., that the insured meet certain educational or competency requirements, and that the firearms be stored in a locked safe, etc.) and charge a premium commensurate with the likely financial risk, this may provide the most effective means to optimize gun ownership in the U.S.

John
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Jan 4, 2013 - 02:27pm PT
If I want to shoot you in the face and don't care about the consequences, why would I pay insurance?

That's not the point. You clearly aren't an idiot, so stop pretending to be one. There are plenty uninsured motorists out there who don't give a fuk. If they get busted, there are consequences. Insurance is for accidents... like if you "accidentally" leave your guns where your mentally unstable son can get them and kill dozens of innocent people... or if you "accidentally" lose a gun that is then used in a crime. Currently there is nothing in place to promote responsible gun ownership and it is left entirely up to the individual... imagine if driving had the same standards and all those guys I knew from college who "actually drive better when drunk" were allowed to do so at their discretion.
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Jan 4, 2013 - 02:29pm PT
Insurance wouldn't help. You get in deep sh*t if you don't report a gun stolen, or "lost". It's your fault. You should store it safely.

Your gun vault should be your insurance.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Jan 4, 2013 - 02:31pm PT
No, you don't get in deep sh#t if you don't report a gun stolen. There are places where it is illegal to even have a record of who owns guns... so how the fuk would you get in trouble for it?

YES it is YOUR fault, but OTHERS have to deal with the consequences.


"Federal law does not require individual gun owners or other lawful possessors of firearms to report the loss or theft of a firearm to law enforcement."

"Seven states and the District of Columbia require firearm owners to report the loss or theft of their firearms to law enforcement. New Jersey has also adopted a relevant law, as described below."

http://smartgunlaws.org/reporting-lost-or-stolen-firearms-policy-summary/

The NRA is actively involved in stopping ANY laws that require individual gun owners to report lost of stolen guns.
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Jan 4, 2013 - 02:33pm PT
Maybe some states.

In CA, if I lose my rifle or handgun,

and for some reason the ATF comes knocking, looking for them, (Yeah right)

or my gun is found on a dead gang member, or dropped at a robbery,

they can trace the serial number back to me.


Then yes, I'd be in deep sh*t.

michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Jan 4, 2013 - 02:36pm PT
I must be. Explain it to me, how paying month to month insurance would help anything in the case of a mass shooting.


Go.
jstan

climber
Jan 4, 2013 - 02:51pm PT
If firearms owners can't get insurance, or if (much more likely) any insurer starts to require certain conditions for the insurance to be in effect (e.g., that the insured meet certain educational or competency requirements, and that the firearms be stored in a locked safe, etc.) and charge a premium commensurate with the likely financial risk, this may provide the most effective means to optimize gun ownership in the U.S.

If you are not law abiding or do not have anything someone can sue you for, you won't get insurance. This condition fails the same test gun regulation fails.

As I understand it in the UK any crime committed which involved firearms, the legal penalties are much more severe. What logical test does this fail?
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Jan 4, 2013 - 02:55pm PT
None. They should be more severe. It's a joke now days you go to prison for 3 years for having a pound of pot in TX, but in CA, you go to jail for 6 months for armed robbery.

Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Jan 4, 2013 - 02:57pm PT
Just a couple thoughts...


It's about political freedom Jingy.

Not hunting.

Not defense.


This:

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government"
Thomas Jefferson, 1 Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Hope that helps.


 Couch, you say its not for defence, yet you cite Jefferson who clearly states the right to "keep and bear arms is to protact themselves against tyranny in government".... If that is not plainly a statement that points to "defense" than I don't know what is? In order for the protection against tyranny there would have to be tyranny.... and so far only republicons are all in favor of that, but it ain't happened yet.

Another thing, "political freedom"? Really? Just parcing those words would get us to a funny place if we go by dictionary definitions, but that's yet another thing. The right to keep and bear is not a political statement, its a right (and I'm certainly not trying to take that from anyone)... just trying to get people to think about what they are doing when they hold up the "I'm gonna protect myself with my sidearm" and how it can be prooven to have no effect on the holder of the sidearm in the end.


Unless you plan on doing something the gun is useless or only helpful after the fact, after the first shots have been fired.
Hell, you might not even plan to do something and end up harming people (how many pharmicutical adds do we have to see mentioning possible side-effects of depression and anxiety before we see the connection....) there may be no control of ones brain at some point, and having a gun on hand may resuilt in unnecessary deaths.



just sayin....
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Jan 4, 2013 - 03:05pm PT
Infinite recursion detected

kill -9 thisthread
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Jan 4, 2013 - 03:10pm PT
As far as I can tell, there are no laws in the state of California that require an individual to report a gun lost or stolen. Also no requirements to register rifles or shotguns you bring from another state.

Let me know if you can find otherwise: http://oag.ca.gov/firearms
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Jan 4, 2013 - 03:13pm PT
MEMEMEME said:
"I really am trying to figure out why people who love guns are so against ANY further regulation."

My response to Memememe"
Go back and read my posts. If you are still confused why I will go in depth.



When it comes down to it what is the number 1 reason we should not have stricter requirements to get guns?

A blah blah blah
B blah blah blah

blah

Refer to my first reply. I can keep repeating it. Apparently I will have too as there must be literacy issues here. Do they let you vote Mechrist?
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Jan 4, 2013 - 03:14pm PT
Jingy, I was referring to self defense at the mall or grocery store kind of thing. Wonder if MEMEME will bother to read your post which indicates you could answer his question and have read what I posted.

Nice Jingy. Thanks. BTW, I didn't have any guns for @30 years till the last kid left the home, but my thoughts have remained steady on the reason for their ownership the entire time. That we do not need them for that purpose is a relief, and I hope they are never needed or used in that regard.

JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Jan 4, 2013 - 03:22pm PT
jstan,

The argument for reducing the population of guns in America is that if there were fewer legal firearms in circulation, it would be harder for those who can only obtain them illegally. In addition, insurance and tort liability create a financial incentive for legal gun owners to store and use their weapons with optimal care.

I'm not sure the effect on the margins will be as great as I hope, but I don't see how it could hurt. If nothing else, it should make the cost of maintaining a personal arsenal more in line with the societal cost, and it doesn't require any change to existing Second Amendment jurisprudence.

John
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Jan 4, 2013 - 03:23pm PT
Yeah, go back through 1300+ posts to find couchmaster's words of wisdom... the same person who uses Mexico's gun regulations to illustrate why more gun regulation in the US would never work. ha.
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Jan 4, 2013 - 03:40pm PT
EXEMPLARY LOCAL LAW


Sacramento, California21


In 2007, the City of Sacramento, California joined the rising number of California localities that have enacted ordinances requiring firearm owners to report lost or stolen firearms. Sacramento’s ordinance makes it unlawful for any person who owns or possesses a firearm to “knowingly or negligently” fail to report such loss or theft. The person must report this information to the Sacramento Police Department within 48 hours of when the person “knew or should have known” that the firearm was lost or stolen. This requirement applies when the owner or possessor resides in the City, or the theft or loss of the firearm occurred in the City. A violation of this requirement is a misdemeanor.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jan 4, 2013 - 03:44pm PT
insurance for guns?? right after insurance on ROPES....

speaking of "pathetic"

I have insurance both on guns from theft and also liability insurance in case I shoot someone and they or their family sue me and win

This is offered through the NRA, among other organizations

The NRA strongly supports gun owners having such insurance

most people know this, especially those that have killed or might kill a person

duh
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Jan 4, 2013 - 03:47pm PT
Will they cover your legal fees in case you shoot someone breaking into your house who poses great bodily harm and or death to you?
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Jan 4, 2013 - 03:49pm PT
Thanks michaeld. Sounds like Sacramento has stepped up, back in 2009(?). But that is not a state law and only applies to people in the city. It is a good start none the less.





Rong, when is the last time a climbing rope was used to kill dozens of innocent people? Again with the ignorant, retarded false equivalency bullsh#t.
Rick Krause

Trad climber
Madras, Or
Jan 5, 2013 - 12:02am PT
Armed Citizen: A woman hiding in her attic with children shot an intruder multiple times before fleeing to safety. Her husband said, "My wife is a hero. She protected her kids. She did what she was supposed to do as responsible, prepared gun owner."

http://www.wsbtv.com/news/news/local/woman-hiding-kids-shoots-intruder/nTm7s/

For the people that want to take all the guns away from good people, what are you going to say to this woman?
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Jan 5, 2013 - 12:03am PT
Get a cell phone and call the police?
tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Jan 5, 2013 - 12:13am PT
Should I list the number of times someone called the police and then was harmed by an intruder? It is higher than the number of people killed by beatings in the US. Which is higher than gun murders.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Jan 5, 2013 - 12:32pm PT
Should I list the number of times people I know have had the need to pull a gun to protect themselves, their loved ones, or their property....








0








And I know at least 10 people.
Dropline

Mountain climber
Somewhere Up There
Jan 5, 2013 - 12:57pm PT
I've had to unholster my weapon just once. That was on the job though.

I know a great many people who have never taken a leader fall. Should they not use a rope or a belay?

Most skydivers have never had a function. Should they not have a reserve?

Of course, ropes and reserves can't be used to kill anyone so it is quite different, but still, your personal experience Wes doesn't mean diddly.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Jan 5, 2013 - 01:05pm PT
That's silly logic. If you put yourself in a position that requires certain safety equipment, the yes, you should use that safety equipment. And it ain't my personal experience. It is the experience of every person I have ever known (except my bro-in-law who is a cop).

My point, which you reinforced, is that the VAST MAJORITY of gun owners never have the need to use their guns. The fact that even more people are frantically buying up guns they have never needed before, out of fear of situations they have never found themselves in before, will most likely only create situations where they actually need them. Self-fulfilling prophecy bullsh#t.

A friend in Salt Lake carries. His reason "because any dipshit can get a permit to carry after taking a 2 hour class... and that scares the sh#t out of me."
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jan 5, 2013 - 01:09pm PT
Feel better now, Honey Boo Boo?



When seconds count between living or dying, the police are only minutes away." - Phillip Van Cleave (October 30, 2007)
Van Cleave is the president of the Virginia Citizen's Defense League (VCDL).
"There's no such thing as a good gun. There's no such thing as a bad gun. A gun in the hands of a bad man is a very dangerous thing. A gun in the hands of a good person is no danger to anyone except the bad guys."

-Charlton Heston, 15 Sept 1997, Fox News Channel
"Among Other Evils Which Being Unarmed Brings You, It Causes You To Be Despised"

The Prince, Niccolo Machiavell
"Americans used to roar like lions for liberty; now we bleat like sheep for security."
— Norman Vincent Peale
Security without liberty is called prison.

"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."

Benjamin Franklin

When guns are outlawed, only outlaws have guns.



"You cannot invade the mainland United
States. There would be a rifle behind each blade of grass."

Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto



“A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity” - Sigmund Freud


“An armed society is a polite society.”
Robert Heinlein

"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun."
-Wayne LaPierre, NRA Executive Vice President




Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the outcome of the vote.
-Benjamin Franklin


“Arms in the hands of individual citizens may be used at individual discretion in private self-defense.”
John Adams




"Laws can't control the lawless"
-Wayne LaPierre, NRA Executive Vice President


“The right is absolute … government has no authority to forbid me from owning a firearm … the debate is not about guns. It is about freedom.”
California State Sen. Tom McClintock, 6/9/2001




Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who comes near that precious jewel. Unfortunately, nothing
will preserve it but downright force. When you give up that force, you are ruined.
Patrick Henry

“The Second Amendment is not about duck hunting, and I know I’m not going to make very many friends saying this, but it’s about our right, all of our right to be able to protect ourselves from all of you guys up there.”
Dr. Suzanna Gratia Hupp, appearing before Representative Charles Schumer’s committee hearings on the assault weapons ban




“If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest for freedom, go home and leave us in peace. We seek not your council nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen.”
Samuel Adams

“Though defensive violence will always be a ’sad necessity’ in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men.”
St. Augustine




“Americans have the right and advantage of being armed- unlike the citizens of other countries whose governments are afraid to trust the people with arms.”
James Madison

“The fundamental force behind the Second Amendment is to empower the people and give them the greatest measure of authority over the tyranny of runaway government.”
U.S. Rep. Bob Schaffer, 2002




Dangerous laws created by well intentioned people today can be used by dangerous people with evil intentions tomorrow.”
Alan Eppers

“We cannot defend freedom abroad by deserting it at home.”
Thomas Jefferson
Dropline

Mountain climber
Somewhere Up There
Jan 5, 2013 - 01:09pm PT
Wes:
That's silly logic. If you put yourself in a position that requires certain safety equipment, the yes, you should use that safety equipment. And it ain't my personal experience. It is the experience of every person I have ever known (except my bro-in-law who is a cop).

Think of a gun as safety equipment then and being alive as a position that requires certain safety equipment.
Dropline

Mountain climber
Somewhere Up There
Jan 5, 2013 - 01:13pm PT
Wes:
And it ain't my personal experience. It is the experience of every person I have ever known

There is plenty of statistical data to support the idea that more regulation of guns will reduce gun homicides. Why be a moron and refer to your meaningless and nebulous personal anecdotal experience and that of your friends? I thought you were a science guy.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Jan 5, 2013 - 01:18pm PT
Think of a gun as safety equipment then and being alive as a position that requires certain safety equipment.

But it isn't. The cumulative years of "alive" in my sample population is 10's of thousands and the number of incidences where a gun was needed to protect it is ZERO.

What you are talking about is roping up at the trail head for a hike to Nevada Falls.

There is plenty of statistical data to support the idea that more regulation of guns will reduce gun homicides.

Yep. Many here are impervious to those kind of facts, so I was just playing along...
Should I list the number of times someone called the police and then was harmed by an intruder....
Dropline

Mountain climber
Somewhere Up There
Jan 5, 2013 - 01:21pm PT
Tens of thousands of people, even hundreds of thousands of people, will never be in a car accident that requires a seat belt. So the number of times they needed a seat belt to protect themselves is zero.

Should they not wear seatbelts?
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Jan 5, 2013 - 01:23pm PT
And there is a big problem with seat belts being used to strangle others.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Jan 5, 2013 - 01:23pm PT
If they don't want to, sure.

Seatbelts are not capable of falling into the wrong hands and killing dozens of people in a matter of minutes.


The biggest benefit of seatbelts is that my brother and bro-in-law don't have to scrape as many brains off the pavement or spend as much time rounding up body parts.
Dropline

Mountain climber
Somewhere Up There
Jan 5, 2013 - 01:31pm PT
As long as we are playing along, I will share another personal experience.

When I was in my mid twenties I lived in a house in a pretty bad neighborhood with two other guys and a woman. One night, in the wee hours of the morning really, there was a ruckus outside on the street in front of the house. Some guy was beating the sh#t out of a woman and she was screaming for help. All of us woke up and rolled out the door. I think I grabbed a broomless broom handle on the way out the door. Other people were also pouring onto the street.

The perp recognized he was going to have a public relations problem and so he stuffed his semi-conscious and bloodied victim into his car and screamed off. In other words he kidnapped her.

This all went down in about 60 seconds, maybe even less.

If I had a weapon on that night and the proper training, and the right opportunity, I would have taken that mother f**ker out.

But I didn't.

The police were called. They took a report. Apparently no one in the neighborhood recognized either the assailant or the victim, and we never saw them again.
Dropline

Mountain climber
Somewhere Up There
Jan 5, 2013 - 01:35pm PT
Wes:
Seatbelts are not capable of falling into the wrong hands and killing dozens of people in a matter of minutes.

I'm not saying seatbelts are like guns only that your citation of your personal experience and personal perceptions to make your point is foolish, especially for a science guy who is supposedly getting a PhD. Haven't they taught you anything about critical thinking yet?
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Jan 5, 2013 - 01:49pm PT
Dropline, yeah, I know. Like I said, I was playing along. In my experience you can provide multiple scientific papers with clear sampling methods and clear statistically based conclusions, and people here dismiss them in favor of their personal experience... usually those who rant endlessly about how they should have unfettered access to killing tools because, well, because they say so and [insert whatever random paranoid thought pops into their head]. Clearly my personal experience is not relevant, but it reflects the national statistics... that most people will never need to use a gun.

If you disagree with my conclusion, provide stats to the contrary. I'm going climbing. peas
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jan 5, 2013 - 02:02pm PT
Dropline

Mountain climber
Somewhere Up There
Jan 5, 2013 - 02:08pm PT
Bruce:
Well move over then. Us Canadians and Ausies will take over leading the Free world.

Ummmmmm, not likely. Our economy is more than ten times the size of yours and so is the foreign aid we provide. Does that mean the US is without problems? Not at all. We clearly have a gun violence problem. I'm not convinced that taking all the guns away from those who, as a matter of conscience, abide by the laws of the land will solve that problem though.

Does our gun violence problem mean we are not the leader of the free world? Hardly.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Jan 5, 2013 - 04:03pm PT
The role of guns as self-defense is not incompatible with the regulation of guns.

The role of guns to support rebellion probably is incompatible with the regulation of guns, however, there is no right-to-rebellion guaranteed by the Constitution.

Confusing these two issues causes this unreasonable, hardened political position to be taken.

A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.
jstan

climber
Jan 5, 2013 - 06:24pm PT
Three women die as gunman opens fire in Swiss village
Thu, Jan 3 2013
Gunmen in Pakistan shoot dead seven aid workers near capital
Tue, Jan 1 2013
Three New Jersey police officers shot; gunman reported dead
Fri, Dec 28 2012
New York gunman left note declaring plan to kill people
Tue, Dec 25 2012

At least four dead in Aurora shooting
By Keith Coffman
AURORA, Colo. | Sat Jan 5, 2013 5:26pm EST
(Reuters) - A gunman who barricaded himself inside a townhouse after killing three people in the home was shot to death by police on Saturday in Aurora, Colorado, the same Denver suburb where 12 people were slain in a movie house massacre last July, police said.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/01/05/us-usa-shooting-colorado-idUSBRE90408W20130105

Dropline

Mountain climber
Somewhere Up There
Jan 5, 2013 - 06:38pm PT
Some on this thread and some politicos have argued that we should follow the lead of Britain, Australia, and Japan, in banning most forms of gun ownership by private citizens so that we can reduce our own rate of gun homicides to the level those three countries have.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/18/opinion/the-gun-challenge-strict-laws-work.html
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jan 5, 2013 - 06:50pm PT
Dropline, I have been following this thread from the beginning


I don't recall any group of people or even one single person posting here who has stated they want legally purchased guns taken away from people.

Also, you mentioned some "politicos"

I don't recall any member of either house of congress who is advocating, talking about proposing legislation, that actually requires Americans to turn in all the guns they purchased legally.

What am I missing, Dropline?

WHO are the people on this thread, and who are the politicos, calling for "guns to be taken away from people"?

Everything I read is people talking about what possibly could be done to mitigate mass murder by large clip and/or full scale assault weapons "new" purchases having more restrictive controls, not "handguns" purchased legally.

Dropline

Mountain climber
Somewhere Up There
Jan 5, 2013 - 07:06pm PT
Norton:
I don't recall any group of people or even one single person posting here who has stated they want legally purchased guns taken away from people.

jghedge has written words to that effect regularly. He frequently cites Britain's gun control laws as a model for what we should adopt, and if I understand those laws correctly, they outlaw most forms of private gun ownership.

By politicos I mean not just politicians but also political pundits, like the NY Times editorial board responsible for the opinion piece I linked.

I don't mean to raise a straw man argument of regulation being either all or nothing. If banning weapons like the .223 and also high capacity magazines will at least reduce the number of mass shootings, I'm all in.
TradEddie

Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
Jan 5, 2013 - 07:34pm PT
Maybe some states.
In CA, if I lose my rifle or handgun,
and for some reason the ATF comes knocking, looking for them, (Yeah right)
or my gun is found on a dead gang member, or dropped at a robbery,
they can trace the serial number back to me.
Then yes, I'd be in deep sh*t.
Firstly, I think that you are mistaken, but even if correct, there are probably forty-something other states you wouldn't be in any sh** at all.
In the absence of an informant who will testify, it is almost impossible to successfully prosecute a straw purchase. That girl in NY who bought the guns that killed those firefighters simply has to claim the killer stole them from her, or even that she just left them somewhere and forgot about them, and the burden is on the prosecutor to prove otherwise. This is why mandatory reporting of "lost" or stolen guns is needed, and at a federal level, otherwise it's pointless.

Write your congressman.

TE

Dropline

Mountain climber
Somewhere Up There
Jan 5, 2013 - 07:36pm PT
Norton, I hear you. Didn't mean to go there or make the slippery slope argument. Perhaps I misunderstood hedge. But as I'm not making the slippery slope argument I'm not going to take the time to review the entire thread looking for hedge's comments or those of others that may have called for the banning of all, or virtually all guns.









TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jan 5, 2013 - 07:39pm PT
Dropline

Mountain climber
Somewhere Up There
Jan 5, 2013 - 07:47pm PT
Norton:
n addition, a person writing a personal opinion piece that got published in a newspaper such as your example is decidedly not a "politico"

Regarding my use of "politico", in addition to being an informal term for politician, often with a bad connotation, politico can also refer to "a person with strong political views". This verified in the OED, 2nd edition, condensed, page 1380.

Edited to add: The fuller description in the OED is "a political agent; a person with strong political views". So a politico need not be an elected politician but must be a "political agent" of some kind. For example, Jack Lew, Obama's chief of staff, could be referred to as a politico, even though he is not an elected politician. But you are right about talking heads not being politicos, as they are not political agents and have no political power, or agency, beyond their words. My bad.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Jan 5, 2013 - 08:34pm PT
http://news.yahoo.com/four-dead-hostage-taking-aurora-colorado-tv-165523379.html
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Jan 5, 2013 - 09:00pm PT
Even if it is just a 9 I bet if she fired that Kahr she'd drop it or at least not want again.
(and they should have shown her how to index that finger)

At Dixie Gun today I found a factory Mini 30 twenty rounder which only cost $35.
They had some new Brownell AR mags for $40 which only cost $20 a month ago.


Somebody said to one of the clerks that Walmart got some .22 ammo and 5 customers overheard and raced for their trucks.

Now when they answer the phone they just pick up the receiver and say "We ran out."

I wonder how long this will go on.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jan 5, 2013 - 09:08pm PT
http://www.wsbtv.com/news/news/local/woman-hiding-kids-shoots-intruder/nTm7s/
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Jan 5, 2013 - 09:29pm PT
This is more for the republicon/church-school type who think that getting god out of the classroom has resulted in more school shootings…. A bit of reality would not be good for you….

From Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_school_shootings_in_the_United_States#1900.E2.80.931930s

May 12, 1900: Danbury, Connecticut After being repeatedly refused by Teacher Lillian Owen, Herbert Horton went to the schoolhouse and pleaded one last time. He then pulled out a revolver and demanded entry or he would kill himself. Miss Owen and pupils barricaded the door. Horton then shot himself in the chest.[16]
February 26, 1902: Camargo, Illinois Teacher Fletcher R. Barnett shot and killed another teacher, Eva C. Wiseman, in front of her class at a school. After shooting at a pupil who came to help Miss Wiseman and wounding himself in a failed suicide attempt, he waited in the classroom until a group of farmers came to lynch him. He then ran out of the school building, grabbed a shotgun from one of the farmers and shot himself, before running away and leaping into a well where he finally drowned. The incident was likely sparked by Wiseman's refusal to marry Barnett[17].
February 24, 1903: Inman, South Carolina Edward Foster, a 17-year-old student at Inman High school, was shot and fatally wounded by his teacher Reuben Pitts after he had jerked a rod from Pitts' hands to resist punishment. According to the teacher, Foster struck the pistol Pitts had drawn to defend himself, thus causing its discharge. Pitts was later acquitted of murder.
July 21, 1903 Jackson, Kentucky at the Cave Run School, James Barrett and Mack Howard fought a dual with pistols over a card game killing each other. Another student James Vires, age 12, was also found shot in the abdomen while sitting at his desk[18].
December 16, 1904: Magee, Mississippi E. E. Mangum was shot through the head and killed by the principal of the high school, Professor J. E. Woodward. Mangum remonstrated with Woodward because he had administered a severe whipping to Mangum's 15-year-old son. Mangum finally lost his temper and shot Woodward through the wrist. Woodward was handed a pistol by a bystander and shot Mangum through the head[19].
October 10, 1906: Cleveland, Ohio Harry Smith shot and killed 22-year-old teacher Mary Shepard at South Euclid School after she had rejected him. Smith escaped and committed suicide in a barn near his home two hours later.[20]
March 23, 1907: Carmi, Illinois George Nicholson shot and killed John Kurd at a schoolhouse during a school rehearsal. The motive for the shooting was Kurd making a disparaging remark about Nicholson's daughter during her recital.
December 20, 1907: Chico, California Arthur Roberts, aged 11 years, was shot in the head and killed during a military drill by the school children of the Dayton school district. The children, armed with old guns believed to be empty, aimed and pulled triggers. Instantly the Roberts boy, who liad just emerged from the school building, threw his hands to his head and cried, "I'm shot."[21]
March 11, 1908: Boston, Massachusetts Elizabeth Bailey Hardee was shot to death by Sarah Chamberlain Weed at the Laurens School, a finishing school in Boston. Weed then turned the gun on herself and committed suicide.
April 15, 1908: Asheville, North Carolina Dr. C.O. Swinney shot and fatally wounded his 16-year-old daughter Nellie in a reception room at Normal and Collegiate Institute. He then committed suicide by shooting himself in the head.
February 12, 1909: San Francisco, California 10-year-old Dorothy Malakanoff was shot and killed by 49-year-old Demetri Tereaschinko as she arrived at her school in San Francisco. Tereaschinko then shot himself in a failed suicide attempt. Tereaschinko was reportedly upset that Malakanoff refused to elope with him.
March 19, 1909: Mount Vernon, Illinois During a school performance of "the Grand Central", John Moake, portraying the villain, was shot in the forehead and dangerously wounded by the hero, Roy Slater. The cartridge was thought to have been blank[22].
June 10, 1909: Trinidad, Colorado Walter Harris, 11 years old student accidentally shot and killed his teacher B.C. Briggs in the head while on a school field trip[23].
January 10, 1912: Warrenville, Illinois Sylvester E. Adams shot and killed teacher Edith Smith after she rejected his advances. Adams then shot and killed himself. The incident took place in a schoolhouse after the students had been dismissed for the day.
March 27, 1919: Lodi Township, Michigan 19-year-old teacher Irma Casler was shot and killed in her classroom at Rentschler school by Robert Warner, apparently because she had rejected his advances.
April 2, 1921: Syracuse, New York Professor Holmes Beckwith shot and killed dean J. Herman Wharton in his office at Syracuse University before committing suicide.
February 15, 1927: Hempstead, New York James O'Donnell, 18-year-old senior at Hempstead High School, shot himself to death on the stage in the school's auditorium. A suicide note stated that O'Donnell killed himself to lessen the financial burden on his family.
May 18, 1927: Bath, Michigan Bath School Disaster School treasurer Andrew Kehoe, after killing his wife and destroying his house and farm, blew up the Bath Consolidated School by detonating dynamite in the basement of the school, killing 38 people, mostly children. He then pulled up to the school in his car, then set off a bomb, killing himself and four others. This is the deadliest mass murder at a school in United States history and the world's first suicide bombing.
May 22, 1930: Ringe, Minnesota Margaret Wegman, 20-year-old teacher at the local rural school, was shot and killed in the school by 24-year-old Douglas Petersen.
May 28, 1931: Duluth, Minnesota Katherine McMillen, 24-year-old teacher at the Howard Gensen rural school near Duluth, was accidentally shot and killed by a revolver brought to school by a pupil.
February 15, 1933: Downey, California Dr. Vernon Blythe shot and killed his wife Eleanor, as well as his 8-year old son Robert at Gallatin grammar school and committed suicide after firing three more shots at his other son Vernon. His wife, who had been a teacher at the school, had filed for divorce the week before.
February 2, 1934: Harlan, Iowa Margaret Graves, 23, school teacher at Monroe School No. 2, was shot to death in front of her 20 students by former suitor Herman Seick, 28. Seick then took his own life in the classroom.
September 14, 1934: Gill, Massachusetts. Headmaster Elliott Speer was murdered by a shotgun blast through the window of his study at Northfield Mount Hermon School. The crime was never solved.
March 27, 1935: Medora, North Dakota Emily Hartl, 24-year-old teacher at the Manlon school northwest of Medora, was shot and killed at the school by 28-year-old Harry McGill, a former suitor.
May 7, 1935: Irvington, New York Dr. Paul Kyle, head of the Kyle School for Boys, was found shot to death in the school, just before classes were to begin for the day.
December 12, 1935: New York City, New York, Victor Koussow, a Russian laboratory worker at the School of Dental and Oral Surgery, shot Prof. Arthur Taylor Rowe, Prof. Paul B. Wiberg, and wounded Dr. William H. Crawford at Columbia Presbyterian Hospital, before committing suicide.
April 27, 1936: Lincoln, Nebraska Prof. John Weller shot and wounded Prof. Harry Kurz in a corridor of the University of Nebraska, apparently because of his impending dismissal at the end of the semester. After shooting Kurz Weller tried to escape, but was surrounded by police on the campus, whereupon he killed himself with a shot in the chest.
June 4, 1936: Bethlehem, Pennsylvania Wesley Crow shot and killed his Lehigh University English instructor, C. Wesley Phy. Crow went to Phy's office and demanded that Phy change his grade to a passing mark. Crow committed suicide after shooting Phy.
June 4, 1937: Isabel, Kansas Robert Douthitt, 16, was accidentally shot to death backstage during high school play practice. The revolver was to have been loaded with blanks, but it held live ammo.
September 24, 1937: Toledo, Ohio 12-year-old Robert Snyder shot and wounded his principal, June Mapes, in her office at Arlington public school when she declined his request to call a classmate. He then fled the school grounds and shot and wounded himself.
[edit]1940s

This section does not cite any references or sources. Please help improve this section by adding citations to reliable sources. Unsourced material may be challenged and removed. (August 2012)
May [24] 6, 1940: South Pasadena, California. After being removed as principal of South Pasadena Junior High School, Verlin Spencer shot six school officials, killing five, before attempting to commit suicide by shooting himself in the stomach.
May 23, 1940: New York City, New York Infuriated by a grievance, Matthew Gillespie, 62-year-old janitor at the Dwight School for Girls, shot and critically wounded Mrs. Marshall Coxe, secretary of the junior school.
July 4, 1940: Valhalla, New York Angered by the refusal of his daughter, Melba, 15, to leave a boarding school and return to his home, Joseph Moshell, 47, visited the school and shot and killed the girl.
September 12, 1940: Uniontown, Pennsylvania, 29-year-old teacher Carolyn Dellamea is shot to death inside her third grade classroom by 35-year-old William Kuhns. Kuhns then shot himself in the chest in a failed suicide attempt. Kuhns had reportedly been courting Dellamea for over a year but the relationship was ended when Dellamea discovered that Kuhns was already married.[25]
October 2, 1942: New York City, New York Irwin Goodman, 36-year-old mathematics teacher at William J. Gaynor Junior High School, was shot and killed in the school corridor by a youth.
February 23, 1943: Port Chester, New York Harry Wyman, 13, shot himself dead at the Harvey School, a boys’ preparatory school.
June 26, 1946: Brooklyn, New York A 15-year-old schoolboy who balked at turning over his pocket money to a gang of seven youths was shot in the chest in the basement of the Public School 147 annex of the Brooklyn High School for Automotive Trades.
November 24, 1946: New York City A 13-year-old student at St. Benedict’s Parochial School, shot and fatally wounded himself while sitting in an audience watching a school play.
February 5, 1947: Madill, Oklahoma 1st grade teacher Jessie Laird, 40, was shot to death in her classroom, during recess by her estranged husband, Ellis Laird, 62. Laird then fatally shot himself.
December 1, 1947: Bala Cynwyd, Pennsylvania Donald Peabody Sargent, 14, shot himself to death in his junior high school classroom.
December 24, 1948: New York City, New York A 14-year-old boy was fatally wounded by a shot from the .22-caliber rifle of a fellow student Robert Ross, 17. The youth was accidentley shot in the head when he chanced into range where Ross was target shooting near a lake on the school property.
March 11, 1949: New York City, New York A 16-year-old student at Stuyvesant High School was accidentally shot in the arm by a fellow student who was ‘showing off’ with a pistol in a classroom.
November 13, 1949: Columbus, Ohio Ohio State University freshman James Heer grabbed a .45 caliber handgun from the room of a Delta Tau Delta fraternity brother and shot and killed his fraternity brother Jack McKeown, 21, an Ohio State senior.
[edit]1950s

This section does not cite any references or sources. Please help improve this section by adding citations to reliable sources. Unsourced material may be challenged and removed. (August 2012)
April 25, 1950: Peru, Nebraska Dr. William Nicholas, 48, president of Peru State College and Dr. Paul Maxwell, 56, education department head, were shot to death at their desks by Dr. Barney Baker, 54-year-old psychology professor. Baker was found dead of a self-inflicted gunshot at his home on campus.
July 22, 1950: New York City, New York A 16-year-old boy was shot in the wrist and abdomen at the Public School 141 dance during an argument with a former classmate.
March 12, 1951: Union Mills, North Carolina Professor W. E. Sweatt, superintendent and teacher at the Alexander School, was shot to death by students Billy Ray Powell, 16, and Hugh Justice, 19. The assailants had been reprimanded by Sweatt, and they waited for him as he locked his office door.
June 4, 1951: New York City, New York Carl Arch, a 50-year-old intruder to a girl's gym class, was shot and killed by a police officer at Manhattan's Central Commercial High School.
November 27, 1951: New York City, New York David Brooks, a 15-year-old student, was fatally shot as fellow pupils looked on in a grade school.
April 9, 1952: New York City, New York A 15-year-old boarding school student shot a dean rather than relinquish pin-up pictures of girls in bathing suits.
July 14, 1952: New York City, New York Bayard Peakes walked in to the offices of the American Physical Society (APS) at Columbia University and shot and killed secretary Eileen Fahey with a .22 caliber pistol. Peakes was reportedly upset that the APS had rejected a pamphlet he had written.
September 3, 1952: in Lawrenceville, Illinois After Georgine Lyon, 25, ended her engagement with Charles Petrach, Petrach shot and killed Lyon in a classroom at Lawrenceville High School where she worked as a librarian.
November 20, 1952: New York City, New York Rear Admiral E. E. Herrmann, 56, superintendent of the Naval Postgraduate School, was found dead in his office with a bullet in his head. A service revolver was found by his side.
October 2, 1953: Chicago, Illinois Patrick Colletta,14, was shot to death by Bernice Turner,14, in a classroom of Kelly High School. It was reported that after Turner refused to date Colletta he handed her the gun and dared her to pull the trigger, telling her that the gun was “only a toy.” A coroner’s jury later ruled that the shooting was an accident.
October 8, 1953: New York City, New York Larry Licitra, 17-year-old student at the Machine and Metal Trades High School, was shot and slightly wounded in the right shoulder in the lobby of the school while inspecting a handmade pistol owned by one of several students.
March 31, 1954: Newton, Massachusetts John Frankenberger, 14, was accidentally shot to death in a classroom at Day Junior High School when a pistol being held by a classmate discharged.
May 15, 1954: Chapel Hill, North Carolina Putnam Davis Jr. was shot and killed during a fraternity house carnival at the Phi Delta Theta house at the University of North Carolina. William Joyner and Allen Long were shot and wounded during the exchange of gunfire in their fraternity bedroom. The incident took place after an all-night beer party. Mr. Long reported to the police that, while the three were drinking beer at 7 a.m., Davis pulled out a gun and started shooting with a gun he had obtained from the car of a former roommate.
January 11, 1955: Swarthmore, Pennsylvania After some of his dormmates urinated on his mattress, Bob Bechtel, a 20-year-old student at Swarthmore College, returned to his dorm with a shotgun and used it to shoot and kill fellow student Holmes Strozier.
May 4, 1956: Prince George's County, Maryland 15-year-old student Billy Prevatte fatally shot one teacher and injured two others at Maryland Park Junior High School after he had been reprimanded from the school.
October 20, 1956: New York City, New York A Booker T. Washington Junior High School student was wounded in the forearm by another student armed with a home-made weapon.
October 2, 1957: New York City, New York A 16-year old student was shot in the leg by a 15-year old classmate at a city high school.
March 4, 1958: New York City, New York A 17-year-old student shot a boy in the Manual Training High School.
May 1, 1958: Massapequa, New York A 15-year-old high Massapequa High School freshman was shot and killed by a classmate in a washroom.
September 24, 1959: New York City, New York Twenty-seven men and boys and an arsenal were seized in the Bronx as the police headed off a gang war resulting from the fatal shooting of a teenager at Morris High School.
[edit]1960s

This section does not cite any references or sources. Please help improve this section by adding citations to reliable sources. Unsourced material may be challenged and removed. (August 2012)
February 2, 1960: Hartford City, Indiana Principal Leonard Redden shot and killed two teachers with a shotgun at William Reed Elementary School before fleeing into a remote forest, where he committed suicide.
March 30, 1960 Alice, Texas Donna Dvorak, 14, brought a .22 target pistol to Dubose Junior High School, and fatally shot Bobby Whitford, 15, in their 9th grade science class. Dvorak believed Whitford posed a threat to one of her girlfriends.
June 7, 1960: Blaine, Minnesota Lester Betts, a 40-year-old mail-carrier, walked into the office of 33-year-old principal Carson Hammond and shot him to death with a 12-gauge shotgun.
January 4, 1961: Delmont, South Dakota Donald Kurtz, 17-year-old senior at Delmont High School, was fatally wounded by a .22 caliber bullet from a rifle. The shot, intended as a sound effect for a school play, hit him in the chest during a rehearsal just minutes before the play was to take place.
October 17, 1961: Denver, Colorado Tennyson Beard, 14, got into an argument with William Hachmeister, 15, at Morey Junior High School. During the argument Beard pulled out a .38 caliber revolver and shot at Hachmeister, wounding him. A stray bullet also struck Deborah Faith Humphrey, 14, who died from her gunshot wound.
August 1, 1966: Charles Whitman age 25, climbed atop the observation deck at the University of Texas-Austin, and killed 16 people and wounded 31 during a 96-minute shooting rampage in the University of Texas massacre.
October 5, 1966: Grand Rapids, Minnesota Grand Rapids High School student David Black, 15, killed school administrator Forrest Willey and seriously wounded fellow student Kevin Roth, 14.[26]
November 12, 1966: Mesa, Arizona Bob Smith, 18, took seven people hostage at Rose-Mar College of Beauty. Smith ordered the hostages to lie down on the floor in a circle. He then proceeded to shoot them in the head with a 22-caliber pistol. Four women and a three-year-old girl died, one woman and a baby were injured but survived. Police arrested Smith after the massacre. Smith had reportedly admired Richard Speck and Charles Whitman.
January 24, 1968: High Point, North Carolina David Walker, 15, was shot to death just outside Central High School by Gerald Locklear, 15.
January 30, 1968: Miami, Florida 16-year-old Blanche Ward shot and killed fellow student Linda Lipscomb, 16, with a .22-caliber pistol at Miami Jackson High School. According to Ward, she was threatened with a razor by Lipscomb during an argument over a fountain pen, and in the ensuing struggle the gun went off.
February 8, 1968: Orangeburg, South Carolina In the days leading up to February 8, 1968, about 200 mostly student protesters gathered on the campus of South Carolina State University, located in the city of Orangeburg, to protest the segregation of the All Star Bowling Lane. The bowling alley was owned by the late Harry K. Floyd. That night, students started a bonfire. As police attempted to put out the fire, an officer was injured by a thrown piece of banister. The police said they believed they were under attack by small weapons fire. The officers fired into the crowd, killing three young men: Samuel Hammond, Delano Middleton, and Henry Smith, and wounding twenty-seven others.
May 22, 1968: Miami, Florida Ernest Lee Grissom, a 15-year-old student at Drew Junior High School, shot and seriously wounded a teacher and a 13-year-old student after he had been reprimanded for causing a disturbance.
January 17, 1969: Los Angeles, California Two student members of the Black Panther Party, Alprentice Carter and John Huggins, were fatally shot during a student meeting inside Campbell Hall at the University of California, Los Angeles. The motive of the shooting regarded who would own the school's African American Studies Center. The shooter, Claude Hubert, was never to be found but three other men were arrested in connection with the shooting.
January 23, 1969: Washington, D.C. Cardozo Senior High School assistant principal Herman Clifford, 45, was shot to death in the school's hallway by Ronald Joyner, 18, while scuffling with three youths who robbed the school's bank.
November 19, 1969: Tomah, Wisconsin Principal Martin Mogensen was shot to death in his office by a 14-year-old boy armed with a 20-gauge shotgun.
[edit]1970s
The two most notable U.S. school shootings in the early 1970s were the Jackson State killings in May 1970, where police opened fire on the campus of Jackson State University and the Kent State shootings also in May 1970 where the National Guard opened fire on the campus of Kent State University.[citation needed]
The mid to late 1970s is considered the second most violent period in U.S. school history with a series of school shootings,
February 2, 1971: Philadelphia, Pennsylvania Teacher Samson L. Freedman, 56, was shot to death as he left Morris E. Leeds School, by Kevin Simmons, 14. Freedman had suspended Simmons earlier in the day for cursing in the hallway.
November 8, 1971: Grove, Oklahoma School custodian, Jim "James" Underwood brought a .22-caliber revolver to school hidden in a brown paper bag. School principal, T.J. Melton, 49, was shot in the left shoulder, left ear and in the top of his head, according to published reports. He died around 9 a.m. and Underwood was charged the next day with first-degree murder.[27]
November 11, 1971: Spokane, Washington Former MIT student Larry J. Harmon, 21, entered St. Aloysius Roman Catholic Church on the Gonzaga University campus armed with a .22 caliber rifle. Harmon killed the caretaker, 68-year-old Hilary Kunz, and upon merging from the church, wounded four more people before police officers shot and killed him. Harmon was described by his father as a religious fanatic who believed that he had seen the devil and that Christ was an imposter.[28]
January 5, 1972: Washington, DC Fifth-grade teacher Margaret Brooks, 57, was shot to death in front of her students by her estranged husband James A. Brooks.[citation needed]
January 17, 1974: Chicago, Illinois Elementary school principal Rudolph Jezek, Jr., 52, was shot to death in his office by Steven Guy, 14, a former student said to be angry at being transferred from the school to a social adjustment center.[citation needed]
December 30, 1974: Olean, New York Regents scholar Anthony Barbaro, 17, armed with a rifle and shotgun, kills three adults and wounds 11 others at his high school, which was closed for the Christmas holiday. Barbaro was reportedly a loner who kept a diary describing several "battle plans" for his attack on the school.[29]
February 12, 1976: Detroit, Michigan Intruders shot five Murray-Wright High School students after an apparent dispute over one of the intruders girlfriends.[30]
May 1976: Oklahoma City, Oklahoma U.S. Grant High School student Randy Truitt was shot and killed by James Briggs at the school, leaving several others injured.[citation needed]
June 12, 1976: California State University, Fullerton massacre Custodian Edward Charles Allaway, 37, opened fire with a semi-automatic rifle in the library on the California State University, Fullerton campus killing 7, and wounding 2.[citation needed]
November 10, 1976: Detroit, Michigan Second grade teacher Bettye McCaster, 45, was shot to death in front of her 29 students at Burt Elementary School, by her estranged husband, Al Lewis.[citation needed]
April 7, 1977: Whitharral, Texas High School principal M.O. Tripp was shot to death on the front steps of the school by Ricardo Lopez, 17.[citation needed]
February 9, 1978: St. Albans, West Virginia A 15-year-old student was shot and killed by another student at Hayes Junior High School.[citation needed]
February 22, 1978: Lansing, Michigan After being taunted for his beliefs, a 15-year-old self-proclaimed Nazi, kills one student and wounds a second with a Luger pistol.[29]
May 18, 1978: Austin, Texas John Daniel Christian, 13, son of Lyndon B. Johnson's former press secretary George Christian, shot to death his English teacher, Wilbur Grayson, 29, with his father's .22 caliber rifle in front of approximately 30 classmates. John Christian was never prosecuted and is now a practicing attorney in Austin, Texas.[31]
January 29, 1979: San Diego, California Brenda Ann Spencer opens fire on Grover Cleveland Elementary School from the window of her home across the street, killing 2 adults and wounding 9 others, 8 of whom were children.[citation needed]
[edit]1980s
March 26, 1980: Big Rapids, Michigan Robert Brauer, Business Professor, was shot by student Thomas Kakonis, 20, at Ferris State College. Robert Brauer had failed Kakonis on an examination. Kakonis was the son of an associate dean at the college.[32]
April 7, 1982: Littleton, Colorado, Deer Creek Jr. High School student Jason Rocha, 14, shot and killed Scott Darwin Michael, 13.[33]
January 20, 1983: St. Louis County, Missouri Eighth grade Parkway South Middle School student David F. Lawler entered a study hall classroom and opened fire, killing Randall Koger, 15, and injuring Greg Saffo, 15. Lawler then committed suicide.
According to the Center to Prevent Handgun Violence, in the United States, from September 1986 to September 1990:[34]
At least 71 people (65 students and 6 school employees) had been killed with guns at school.
201 were severely wounded by gun fire.
242 individuals were held hostage at gunpoint.
According to a 1987 survey conducted by the American School Health Association,[35] " 3% of the boys reported having carried a handgun to school at least once during the school year; 1% reported carrying a handgun on a daily basis."
The late 1980s began to see a major increase in school shootings, including:
May 17, 1984: Altoona, Iowa While students in a French class at Southeast Polk High School were taking a test in the hallway, a 17-year-old male shot and killed a 16-year-old female student before killing himself.[36][37]
January 22, 1985: Goddard, Kansas James Alan Kearbey, 14, armed with a M1-A semiautomatic rifle and a .357-caliber handgun, killed principal Joseph McGee and wounded two teachers and a student at Goddard Junior High School.[38]
September 4, 1985: Richmond, Virginia A 12-year-old East End Middle School boy shot a girl with his mother's gun.[39][40]
October 18, 1985: Detroit, Michigan During halftime of the homecoming football game between Northwestern High School and Murray-Wright High School, a boy who was in a fight earlier that day pulled out a shotgun and opened fire, injuring six students.[41][42]
November 26, 1985: Spanaway, Washington A 14-year-old girl shot two boys fatally, then killed herself with a .22-caliber rifle at Spanaway Junior High School.[43][44][45]
December 10, 1985: Portland, Connecticut At Portland Junior High School, a 13-year-old male student pulled out a 9mm firearm and opened fire, injuring the school secretary and killing a custodian.[46]
April 1986: Slidell, Louisiana 13-year-old gifted Boyet Junior High School student Matt Cooper shot himself in class.[47]
May 16, 1986: Cokeville Elementary School hostage crisis In a ransom scheme, David and Doris Young took 150 students and teachers hostage. Their demand for $300 million dollars came to an abrupt end when Doris accidentally set off a bomb, killing herself and injuring 78 students and teachers. David wounded John Miller, a teacher who was trying to flee, then killed himself.
December 5, 1986: Lewistown, Montana A 14-year-old Fergus High School student shot and killed a substitute teacher and wounded a vice principal and two classmates.
March 2, 1987: De Kalb, Missouri Honors student Nathan Ferris, 12, killed a classmate and then himself.[48]
April 16, 1987: Detroit, Michigan A ninth-grade Murray Wright High School student killed Chester Jackson, 17, and wounded Damon Matthews, 17, and Tomeka Turner, 18.[49][50]
December 16, 1987: Katy, Texas Mayde Creek High School student Ramesh D. Tumalad, 15, shot himself to death in his Algebra class as his classmates looked on.[51]
May 20, 1988: Winnetka, Illinois Laurie Dann, 30, shot and killed one elementary school student and wounded five others, then took a family hostage and shot a man before killing herself.
September 26, 1988: Greenwood, South Carolina James William Wilson Jr., 19, entered Oakland Elementary School and opened fire, killing two 8-year-old girls and wounding 6 other students and 2 teachers.
December 16, 1988: Virginia Beach, Virginia Nicholas Elliott, 15, opened fire with a SWD Cobray M-11 semiautomatic pistol at Atlantic Shores Christian School, killing teacher Karen Farley and wounding another.
January 17, 1989: Stockton, California Cleveland School massacre Patrick Edward Purdy, 26, killing five children and wounding 29 other students and a teacher. Purdy then killed himself.[52]
[edit]1990s
Main articles: Columbine High School massacre, Westside Middle School massacre, and Lindhurst High School shooting
According to a survey conducted in 1993 by The Harvard School of Public Health,[53] "15% [of students surveyed] said that they had carried a handgun on their person in the past 30 days, and 4% said that they had taken a handgun to school in the past year," a sharp increase from just five years earlier.
January 8, 1991, Richardson, Texas Jeremy Wade Delle, 15, killed himself with a .357 Magnum in front of his second-period English class. The incident inspired the Pearl Jam song "Jeremy".
November 1, 1991 Iowa City, Iowa University of Iowa shooting Former graduate student Gang Lu, 28, killed four members of the university faculty and one student, and seriously wounded another student, before committing suicide.
May 1, 1992: Olivehurst, California Lindhurst High School shooting Eric Houston, 20, killed four people and wounded 10 in an armed siege at his former high school. Prosecutors said the attack was in retribution for a failing grade.
January 18, 1993: Grayson, Kentucky East Carter High School shooting Scott Pennington, 17, fatally shot his teacher, Deanna McDavid, and head custodian Marvin Hicks.[54]
According to the National School Safety Center, since the 1992-1993 U.S. school year there has been a significant decline in school-associated violent deaths (deaths on private or public school property for kindergarten through grade 12 and resulting from schools functions or activities):[55]
According to the U.S. Department of Education, in the 1998-1999 School Year, 3,523 students (57% High School, 33% Junior High, 10% Elementary) were expelled for bringing a firearm to school.[56]
December 17, 1993, Chelsea, Michigan High school teacher Steven Leith walked out of a staff meeting, returned with a gun, fatally shot the school district's superintendent and wounded the principal and a teacher. The gunman, identified by co-workers as Steve Leith, a science teacher, was arrested at Chelsea High School, the police said. The shooting occurred about an hour after classes ended, during a staff meeting. The Police Chief, Lenard McDougall, said of the suspect: "I found him sitting in a chair in the classroom by himself. He said 'Hi,' and he was taken into custody. He was quiet, very quiet." A 9-millimeter semiautomatic gun was found outside the building, the police said. Joseph Piasecki, superintendent of Chelsea schools, died at Chelsea Community Hospital of multiple gunshot wounds. Phil Jones, 44, an English teacher, was treated for a stomach wound. The principal, Ronald Mead, 43, was shot in the leg.[57]
November 7, 1994: Wickliffe, Ohio (Wickliffe Middle School shooting) Keith Ledeger, 37, a former student at the school, shot and killed custodian Pete Christopher and wounded four other adults.
January 12, 1995: Seattle Washington A 15-year-old Garfield High School student left school during the day and returned with his grandfather's 9mm semiautomatic handgun. He wounded two students.[58]
October 12, 1995: Blackville, South Carolina (Blackville-Hilda High School shooting) Anthony Sincino, 16, killed one teacher and wounded another before committing suicide.
November 15, 1995: Lynnville, Tennessee (Richland High School shooting) James Rouse, 17, killed a student and teacher and seriously wounded another teacher with a .22-caliber rifle.
February 2, 1996: Moses Lake, Washington (Frontier Middle School shooting) Barry Loukaitis, 14, killed a teacher and two students and wounded another student when he opened fire on his algebra class.
August 15, 1996: San Diego, California (San Diego State University shooting) Frederick Martin Davidson, a 36-year-old graduate student killed three professors that he believed were involved in a conspiracy against him.
September 17, 1996: State College, Pennsylvania (Hetzel Union Building shooting) Jillian Robbins, 19, shot and killed one student and injured two outside Pennsylvania State University’s Hetzel Union Building.
February 19, 1997: Bethel, Alaska Bethel Regional High School student Evan Ramsey, 16, shot and killed the school’s principal and one student, and wounded two other students..
October 1, 1997: Pearl, Mississippi (Pearl High School shooting) Luke Woodham, 16, murdered his mother at home before killing his ex-girlfriend and another student and wounding seven others at Pearl High School. He and his friends were said to be outcasts who worshiped Satan.
November 27, 1997: West Palm Beach, Florida Conniston Middle School student Tronneal Magnum, 14, fatally shot Johnpierre Kamel, 14, outside school after an argument over a wristwatch.[59]
December 1, 1997: West Paducah, Kentucky (Heath High School shooting) Three students were killed and five wounded by Michael Carneal, 14, as they participated in a prayer circle.
December 15, 1997: Stamps, Arkansas Joseph “Colt” Todd, 14, concealed in a wooded area on school grounds, shot and wounded two students as they were entering Stamps High School.[60]
March 24, 1998: Craighead County, Arkansas Mitchell Johnson, 13, and Andrew Golden, 11, killed four students and one teacher and wounded ten others as Westside Middle School emptied during a fire alarm intentionally set off by Golden.
April 24, 1998: Edinboro, Pennsylvania (Parker Middle School dance shooting) Andrew Wurst, 14, fatally shot teacher John Gillette, 48, and wounded two students and a teacher at an 8th grade graduation dance.
May 19, 1998: Fayetteville, Tennessee Jacob Davis, 18, shot Robert Creson, 18, in a dispute over a girl.[61]
May 21, 1998: Springfield, Oregon After killing his parents at home, Kip Kinkel,15, drove to Thurston High School where he shot and killed two students and wounded 25 others.
June 15, 1998: Richmond, Virginia A 14-year-old student of Armstrong High School wounded a teacher and a school volunteer.[62]
December 10, 1998: Detroit, Michigan Professor Andrzej Olbrot was killed by graduate student Wlodzimierz Dedecjus, 48.[63]
April 20, 1999: Columbine, Colorado (Columbine High School massacre) Eric Harris, 18, and Dylan Klebold, 17, killed 12 students and one teacher, and wounded 21 others before committing suicide at Columbine High School.
May 20, 1999: Conyers, Georgia (Heritage High School shooting) Six students injured by Thomas Solomon Jr., 15.
November 19, 1999: Deming, New Mexico A 13-year-old girl fatally shot at Deming Middle School by Victor Cordova Jr., 13. Cordova stated he had intended to commit suicide but was jostled by others and the gun moved.[64]
[edit]2000s
Main articles: Virginia Tech massacre, Red Lake massacre, Amish school shooting, and Northern Illinois University Shooting
February 29, 2000: Flint, Michigan At Buell Elementary School, 6-year-old Dedrick Owens, the youngest-ever school shooter, shot and killed classmate Kayla Rolland.[65]
May 26, 2000: Lake Worth, Florida Lake Worth Middle School Florida teacher Barry Grunow was fatally shot by his student, 13-year-old Nathaniel Brazill, who had returned to school after being sent home at 1 p.m. by the assistant principal for throwing water balloons. Brazill returned to school on his bike with a 5 inch Raven and four bullets stolen from his grandfather the week before. Brazill was an honor student. Grunow was a popular teacher and Brazill's favorite.[65]
August 28, 2000: University of Arkansas shooting at Fayetteville, Arkansas At approximately 12:14 pm, Dr. John R. Locke, 67, Director of the Comparative Literature Program was shot and killed in his office by James E. Kelly, 36, a Comparative Literature PhD candidate who had recently been dismissed from the program for lack of progress towards his degree. Kelly shot Dr. Locke three times before taking his own life in Dr. Locke's office after it was cordoned off by campus police.[66][67][68]
September 26, 2000: Darrel Johnson, 13, offender in Louisiana school shooting with 1 student fatality.[65]
March 5, 2001: Charles Andrew William, age 15, offender in California school shooting at Santana High School, 15 wounded 2 of which died.[65]
March 30, 2001: Donald R. Burt Jr., age 18, offender in Indiana school shooting with 1 student fatality.[65]
September 24, 2003: John Jason McLaughlin, age 15, offender in Minnesota school shooting with 2 student fatalities.[65]
February 2, 2004: Unidentified offender in Washington, DC school shooting with 1 student fatality.[65]
May 7, 2004: Unidentified 17 year old offender in Maryland school shooting with 1 student fatality.[65]
March 21, 2005: Jeff Weise, 16 year old offender in Minnesota school shooting. Fatalities include 1 teacher, 5 students, 1 security guard, 2 relatives.[65]
November 8, 2005: Kenny Bartley, age 15, offender in Tennessee school shooting with 1 principal fatality.[65]
August 24, 2006: Christopher Williams walked into Essex Elementary School (Essex, Vermont) and opened fire, killing teacher Alicia Shanks after killing his ex-girlfriend's mother, Linda Lambessis, at home.
September 27, 2006: Duane Roger Morrison walked into Platte Canyon High School (Bailey, Colorado), took six girls hostages and sexually assaulted them. As police entered the classroom he killed one hostage and then shot himself. He died later that day in a nearby Denver hospital. See Platte Canyon High School hostage crisis.[69]
September 29, 2006: Eric Hainstock, 15 year old offender in Weston High School shooting, walked in the school building and shot the high school principal with a handgun after a custodian disarmed him of a shotgun in Cazenovia, Wisconsin.
October 2, 2006: Charles Carl Roberts IV, a 32 year old a milk truck driver, murdered five Amish girls and injured five others before killing himself in an Amish school in the hamlet of Nickel Mines, in Bart Township, Lancaster County, Pennsylvania.
April 16, 2007: Seung-Hui Cho, age 23, offender in Virginia Tech massacre. 32 students and faculty were killed, along with another 17 students and faculty injured in two separate attacks on the same day.
February 14, 2008: The Northern Illinois University shooting was a school shooting that took place on February 14, 2008, during which Steven Kazmierczak shot multiple people on the campus of Northern Illinois University in DeKalb, Illinois, United States, killing five and injuring 21, before committing suicide.
October 26, 2009: A graduate student fatally shot himself in the presence of a professor, in the professor's office, on the Tempe campus of Arizona State University.[70]




It was only in 1963 when the SCOTUS said School Prayer was not such a good idea because of the many different peoples living in the US who may not pray to the same god as the school leaders did…..


Which do you believe:
My reality based view of school shootings…

or

The church leader/politician who thinks we just need to start praying in school again to make these shootings stop for ever….
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Jan 6, 2013 - 12:47pm PT
For the sake of simplicity I strongly recommend leaving 2nd amendment rights arguments out of it for now.

SEE, they are already trying to take away your second amendment rights. Arm yourselves! THE LIBERALS ARE COMING! THE LIBERALS ARE COMING!

^That my friend, is the only way to get the gun nuts to participate in the "discussion." The rest of us seem to agree stricter gun regulations are needed... and educated enforcement to prevent the situation described above.
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Jan 6, 2013 - 01:46pm PT
That poster forget the amount of death due to handguns...conveniently. :/

Also, it's misleading in other ways. The "hammer" category is a blunt objects category that includes hammers (if any were used). the "knife" category is really a "cutting or stabbing implements" category that includes knives. Really misleading.

NO ONE keeps records of how many people died by hammer per se. It is recorded in a larger category called 'blunt objects'. The info has NO credibility imo as it appears to try to mislead.
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Jan 6, 2013 - 10:48pm PT
We should expand Memorial Day to include those like the Sandy Hook kids who gave their lives for our gun freedoms.
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Jan 6, 2013 - 11:03pm PT

I don't know if that's accurate Ron. I did know that the amount of people who die from improper drug prescriptions and reactions (which may not in fact be malpractice) is one of the top ways to die (depending on how you tabulate the numbers)
tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Jan 6, 2013 - 11:25pm PT
If you include any type of gun in that picture, and then take away hospital deaths due to women, it is only 300x more likely, so that discredits the meme.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Jan 7, 2013 - 12:21am PT
There are some terrifying things on that link hedge. WE better get some guns to protect ourselves from those nut jobs.
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Jan 18, 2013 - 09:28pm PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]

part 2 of the previous video, just in case it was needed
dee ee

Mountain climber
citizen of planet Earth
Jan 18, 2013 - 11:19pm PT
More guns= fewer deaths.

Yuh huh.
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