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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Dec 29, 2012 - 10:40pm PT
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You have to look at options that have worked for change in your society besides a pro-or con law , a liberal or conservative side, a repub or democrat choice.
ok tooth, I am interested in hearing your well considered thoughts and suggestions.....
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tooth
Trad climber
B.C.
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Dec 29, 2012 - 10:47pm PT
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Norton, I've put examples of the types of change that I have seen work in your society in this thread already.
Should I re-post?
Or do you want me to do the thinking and apply these types of changes to this situation and then have guys dismiss it all and not even think for themselves because they are able to argue with one aspect of what I type?
I'd rather get both the republicans and democrats and that one other liberal thinking about something constructive rather than acting like schoolchildren (jghedge)
But if it is more fun to pick sides and throw tomatoes at each other and resist working together as a society to make change, have at it. That seems to be working well for your government and the fiscal cliff eh?
EDIT: jghedge's previous post is a good example of this.
JG, I just got finished saying that arming or disarming has good and bad effects. Just because you can find 2 good examples doesn't mean that there aren't 2 bad ones. There are both. A million examples of both. Every year and in every state. Grow up man!
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Dec 29, 2012 - 11:00pm PT
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Norton, I've put examples of the types of change that I have seen work in your society in this thread already.
Should I re-post?
please, and as specifically as you can
I am looking forward to learning exactly how we Americans can mitigate our mass murders, which IS the topic......thanks
and especially coming from a Canadian so knowledgeable about our "ways"
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tooth
Trad climber
B.C.
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Dec 29, 2012 - 11:02pm PT
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My argument is apparently lost on you - you are arguing pro/con gun control.
I'm presenting the idea that your society in it's current state has ways to change over the next generation that are better than the either side of the argument that you can't seem to get over. Maybe you can get your accountant to help you out!
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 29, 2012 - 11:03pm PT
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Sheesh!
Just back from the Firebase and there's 170+ new posts! Too much to read.
Y'all must've figured something out by now, right?
Sad scene in front of the Moapa Indian fireworks and fire water store, a memorial shrine for the young indian that was shot dead there by tribal police days ago.
He was drunk. There was an escalating scene of confrontation. He came up with handgun and got off 2 shots.
Two months ago was worse. Another indian, a popular spirit dancer named Corey Kanosh was shot dead by a deputy. This one is under review.
He was unarmed!
But we should go ahead and ALWAYS trust that the cops will do the right thing (and also be there to protect us).
Got the drum to work flawlessly in the Suomi. Bump fired 72 rounds in about 20 second in a pretty tight cluster.
Momma said, "Don't you buy no ugly gun!" But she shoots purty.
Not so lucky with the Thompson which literally fell apart after 12 shots (good thing its under warranty).
Oh yeah, "all a person needs is one gun".
Right.
So whadjoo guys decide?
oops posted wrong thread
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Dec 29, 2012 - 11:15pm PT
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tooth must have missed my reply:
Norton, I've put examples of the types of change that I have seen work in your society in this thread already.
Should I re-post?
please, and as specifically as you can
I am looking forward to learning exactly how we Americans can mitigate our mass murders, which IS the topic......thanks
and especially coming from a Canadian so knowledgeable about our "ways"
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Dec 29, 2012 - 11:22pm PT
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calling tooth
replies requested from your learned self
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tooth
Trad climber
B.C.
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Dec 29, 2012 - 11:32pm PT
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Norton,
sorry, I was watching Penn and Teller.
One specific example is to use the same methods you used to change one very specific thing, heart disease. That has already saved more lives than gun control could if it worked 100%. How did you do it? Can those methods be used in any other situation?
Now I have a question for you? What else has changed in the US that has been a big improvement in society, and how was it done? All laws, some laws and some of something else? All of something else and only policy changes? Heck, how are most changes in society made? What differences in society are there? Where do they stem from? Raising kids has a lot to do with it. What about smoking? Has that changed lately? There is an example with a mix of policy changes (taxes) law changes (packaging) and societal changes (education and role models). But it took a generation.
Guns are different because they can kill people immediately and smoking takes a while. Guns are different because of what they can do compared to everything else in society. But people aren't different. People (society) is shaped and influenced the same regardless of the issue at hand, and it is people that you are dealing with, people shooting other people, not the inanimate object. So to make change you need to think more about people and how to change that aspect rather than the inanimate object and whether it has a 5-round or 25-round capacity etc. That is like banning cigars vs. cigarettes. People will either smoke more or get the cigars, you have to deal with the PEOPLE to get your society to the level of all those you envy or at least quote in your stats. Wouldn't that make more sense to 'mitigate mass murders' while also affecting murders, killings, violence, almost killings, and a host of other things while you are at it? Or will banning AR's do that? Hey, I don't have a horse in this race, none of your changes will affect me, but these simplistic arguments from both sides aren't going to make the changes you think it will, you won't turn into the UK or Canada in terms of gun violence just by adopting our laws.
ps. I spent the last 10 years in the US. I've got a pretty good idea of life in 3 states.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Dec 29, 2012 - 11:43pm PT
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I am looking forward to learning exactly how we Americans can mitigate our mass murders, which IS the topic......thanks
No you're not. These endless debates always loose focus and quickly drive off the road into "gun violence" and "gun regulation" debacles.
Mass/random murder is it's own topic which several here have tried to discuss. But because of the tools/firearms involved in the recent case, that discussion becomes impossible. Now we've covered slavery, the 2nd, and armed insurrection.....
Critical thinking skills have left this planet.
Pointless really.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Dec 29, 2012 - 11:53pm PT
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fear thoughtlessly said:
No you're not.
wrong, you do not know me or speak for me, you speak only for yourself
and yes, I AM interested in hearing the specifics that tooth has to offer
and guess what? I have no interest in anything you have to say
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Dec 29, 2012 - 11:58pm PT
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tooth offered
So to make change you need to think more about people and how to change that aspect rather than the inanimate object and whether it has a 5-round or 25-round capacity etc.
seriously, I was hoping for specifics
just saying we Americans need to "think more about people", well, ok
after all of that criticism you started out with, I figured you had really thought this through and would eventually come forth with lots of concrete suggestions
disappointed, want to take another shot at it or is that all you got?
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tooth
Trad climber
B.C.
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Dec 29, 2012 - 11:59pm PT
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Drug addiction is another issue that has solely been treated as a crime unsuccessfully.
Treating it from multiple angles after the fact with MORE emphasis placed on raising our kids properly is going to reduce this problem as much as reasonably possible.
Not learning our lesson on how humans problems work from other issues and banging our head against the wall with mass shootings is kinda silly, isn't it?
You already have 22,000 gun laws according to Penn. If you want 50% improvement in your crime stats, or 95% to get to where the UK is, how many laws will do that for you?
How many laws need to be passed to get a criminal to obey?
How about creating less criminals in the first place? Leaving fewer kids lying around with video games is a corner of the solution, leaving less guns lying around easily accessible is one as well. There is no all-or-none solution, and no 99% effective solution either. But if you look at other examples of how society has been shaped/changed, you can figure out the most effective overall strategy to reduce a gun crime while at the same time effecting other positive changes.
Norton, if you want laws that you can argue with me about passing or changing, you won't get it. I'm simply saying that this isn't going to change faster or more efficiently than any of these other problems have if you don't use all the tools used to make the other changes. Passing a gun law isn't even using all the tools we know work.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Dec 30, 2012 - 12:54am PT
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I always refer to the lesson learned from the Dunblane massacre, and the successful solution that was implemented as a result, when asked for solutions to our gun problems
One lesson to learn from Dunblane is that a madman with simple handguns can kill an entire classroom of children and their teacher. Assault weapons are optional.
Another is that during the decade after UK banned handguns in response to this act of violence the use of guns in crime doubled (on a national average.) What actually happened was that in areas like Lancashire the use of guns by criminals skyrocketed by more than 600%.
I'm looking to find a breakdown of gun deaths in UK more locally, to identify the real trend. One thing is for sure, over time if the use of guns by bad guys is going up so will the death rate.
Hedge, give the whole Apache helicopter vs civilians with small arms thing a rest. If you really want to portray gun rights advocates as "nuts" with any credibility, you should not act like one yourself.
Good night.
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zBrown
Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
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Dec 30, 2012 - 01:20am PT
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My eyes are weary. Can one of the brighter folks on this thread (you know who you are), please summarize where we are to date?
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Dec 30, 2012 - 03:56pm PT
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You forgot about the helicopters Hedge...
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Dec 30, 2012 - 04:27pm PT
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From the same article.
For the period of 2007-2010, RTC states’ mass murder rate averaged 0.057, a 31% drop from the 2000-2006 average. Non-RTC states’ averaged a 0.070 rate, an increase of 97% over the 2000-2006 period. For the period of 2000-2010, RTC states experienced a 59% drop in their mass murder rate, while non-RTC states’ rate more than doubled (111%):
RTC= Right to Carry
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tooth
Trad climber
B.C.
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Dec 30, 2012 - 06:17pm PT
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Gun ownership in the US = 9 guns per 10 people.
UK = 1.
Gun sales when Obama whispers about addressing mass killings this month ++++++++++
Gun sales when Obama made gun laws since 2008 __
So if a higher rate of gun ownership = higher rate of gun crime
and
talking about gun control = increase in gun ownership
and the laws Obama has allowed these past 4 years, which have made gun ownership easier - and you see gun crime decrease slightly (not anywhere near the countries you envy)
What do you think will be the real-world effects of saying NO, don't put your hand in the cookie jar? In YOUR country? Using this past month as evidence, not 30 years ago in a country on the other side of the planet?
It's going to take a lot more than just politicians making laws to fix your problem. You need the media to be helpful, you need families to raise their kids, NOT tv, you need, well, families. You need less rat race, less drugs, less medicating problems, less cities, more outdoors, more exercise, more serving people, less rat race, more paying attention to anything other than what the media throws at you.
#1 killer in the US is cardiovascular disease. This has been effectively reduced a lot. #32 is violence. Take a lesson from your successes at the top of the list to deal with the ones at the end of the list.
I think a lot of people are lazy. They are used to expecting the government to make a law and solve their problem for them. They are willing to give up rights and freedoms so they don't have to DO anything. They usually then just blame the opposing party when things don't turn out the way they had thought, and then do nothing again. I keep seeing it in your culture, you turn fingers toward each other then since you are mostly on one side or the other, red vs. blue. That's a pretty lazy approach I see, each side ignoring the big picture and pushing stupid little facts that DONT stand alone, stats like 35 in the UK, all mass murders in gun free zones, etc. Both sides are playing the same zero sum game.
But that's easier, right?
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Dec 30, 2012 - 06:37pm PT
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and the laws Obama has allowed these past 4 years, which have made gun ownership easier - and you see gun crime decrease slightly (not anywhere near the countries you envy)
so tooth,
please name and describe these supposedly meaningful and sweeping "gun laws" the President signed into law since 2008 that you apparently maintain had the effect of decreasing gun crime in the past three years?
thanks
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