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Vegasclimber

Trad climber
Las Vegas, NV.
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 3, 2012 - 06:37pm PT
Thanks Neebee :) I appreciate that, a lot.

Kab, I don't have a lot of options at this point. Quality of life goes downhill a lot when you can't walk in the mornings. I don't have insurance and can't afford to go to specialists and all that. As it is, the bill for this little incident is at $47,000 and still climbing.

Taking 1 or 2 of those a day is a hell of a lot less of an impact on my liver then chewing 8 or 10 Advil. And they aren't taken every day, at that. Kind of which is the lesser evil, I guess.
KabalaArch

Trad climber
Starlite, California
Oct 3, 2012 - 06:50pm PT
Vegas-

Been walking the walk for 15 years now. .10b can be pretty sporty when you can't feel what you're standing on, n'est pas?

Self employment means self insurance, too. But we go on. The Web helped me quite a bit.
steveA

Trad climber
bedford,massachusetts
Oct 3, 2012 - 06:57pm PT
Real glad that I came upon this thread, since I've been on Tremadol for 8 years.
I'm heading to the Valley in a few days.

I've never abused this drug, and I was aware of the dangerous side effects, but in the long run, it is a quality of life issue.

I am bone on bone in my lower back with severe arthritis, and tremadol is perhaps the best option rather than all the others with Tylenol etc.

Perhaps I better watch my soloing in the future, since I want to see my grandchildren grow up.

I noticed there was mention of the "Zone" diet earlier.
I am sure that I was the 1st climber in the country following this diet, since I was introduced by the man himself-Dr. Barry Sears, long before he wrote his 1st book-Enter the Zone.

I can't recommend this nutrition plan enough.
It won't take away arthritis but it sure as hell is the nutrition plan to be on for everyone on the planet!!

I hurt like hell-all the time, but at 66, doing the Grand Teton, via the Upper Exum, car to car, sans rope, fresh from Boston in 9-10 hours, isn't bad. I wonder what I could do if I wasn't in constant pain.

The Olympic swim coach Richard Quick, who sadly to say, died of a brain tumor, a few years ago, touted the Zone diet for years, and for good reason. I had dinner with him on a few occasions, and he said that he even had his grandmother on the plan. Google Richard Quick- he was a great guy.

Guess what-it's the "ZONE" diet, that has made all the difference. I can't recommend it enough! ( I have an identical diabetic,twin brother with a 60 inch waist who will not follow any nutrition plan).
Vegasclimber

Trad climber
Las Vegas, NV.
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 3, 2012 - 07:09pm PT
Hey Steve, hope you have a great trip.

As I said, it wasn't just the medication - blood sugar imbalance, electrolyte imbalance, exhaustion, all were factors that came into play that day. Just bad luck is all.

Stay rested as you can, hydrated and all that good stuff - it's been really hot on the wall lately.

neebee

Social climber
calif/texas
Oct 3, 2012 - 07:11pm PT
hey there say, wow... i sure love how the taco here, leads to so many folks helping each other, back, with shared advice from experiences...

good job, folks, ...

say, steveA--wow,i will sure be keeping you in my prayers, too...
yep--you GOT to see them grandkids grow up, :)


medicines--another scary stuff... but life-savers, too, as you have all three mentioned, :)


well--thanks for the hey there, here, just now, vegasclimber,...
i am off to chores now... :))
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Oct 4, 2012 - 02:42am PT
Glad you are OK, sounds like you really dodged a bullet wizzing past you the size of a haulbag.





























the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Oct 4, 2012 - 03:38am PT
Gnarly. Trama-dol sounds like an appropriate name for a drug that induces trama!

I got very dehydrated once on a wall and was coughing up blood. I can only imagine what you went through... scary.

Talk to someone or do some research about the medical bill, IIRC medical bills are somewhat easy to reduce.
crasic

climber
Oct 4, 2012 - 06:06am PT
Taking 1 or 2 of those a day is a hell of a lot less of an impact on my liver then chewing 8 or 10 Advil

Wrong.

You can take massive amounts of advil for a relatively long time without any real adverse effects. Acute overdose is bad, but the worst thing that chronic dosing will do is an increased rate of stomach ulcers and other stomach issues.

Chronic use of acetominophen, even in reasonable doses, can lead to toxicity, its not safe for long term consumption no matter the dosage. Liver failure is no fun.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Oct 4, 2012 - 08:59am PT
From what I understand, and being a medical journalist, I don't understand much, but the drug of choice for youth/teen suicide (at least in Europe) is paracetomol/acetaminophen. NSAIDs like aspirin and ibruprofen may mess up your stomach, but paracetomol/acetaminophen messes the liver up big time. Still I take it once or so a day (500mg) for my arthritis (C6/C7 vertebrae, disc has deteriorated, bone on bone). I have stopped the Tramadol.

You can live without a stomach, but you need your liver.
mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Oct 4, 2012 - 02:38pm PT
Liver! It's so well-named!

Liver! Veejis climber, this is really fvcking silly in light of things we talked about. It was nice being in with you and C at the the the Meat Meat Meat fest fest fest.

Thanks for sharing this incident. We all should think more seriously about outdoors and medications and interactions thereof.

:) today, it could be your last.

Did you tell me you weren't clipped to a chest harness? I thought that's what you told me, but I don't wear them and maybe could use one.
... and pulled on Mighty mouse's pink string!
... and pulled on Mighty mouse's pink string!
Credit: Guck
I do know imbalances are dangerous when meds are decidedly useful, like in the case of warfarin users who can't take NSAIDs. Like the Tramadol that is prescribed for pain insteads. And the pain that won't go away and you got the good stuff opiate derivative and it works better so you ditch the warfarin and take that good stuff and the pain goes away but the danger of a clot looms larger. Which is where I am now. The pain's gone, time to return to the lair of the rat poisoner.

God luck, good luck, and keep unstuck, Travis.
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Oct 6, 2012 - 03:49pm PT
My gosh - when I saw Travis standing on the bridge the very next day, I couldn't believe my eyes. You had to pick my jaw up off the asphalt, I was so amazed to see him there, and knott all that much the worse for wear.

In the same way as the Perfect Storm descended on Travis, we had a full-on synergistic effect working in the opposite direction to help him out. Was it only by good fortune that I happened to turn my radio on for the only time that day at just the right moment? Or was Someone Else looking out for us? I choose to believe the latter.

Hope you're feeling better, buddy - please keep us all apprised on your progress, and hopefully we'll see you next spring for another kick at the Captain.

Cheers and no beers,
Pete
KabalaArch

Trad climber
Starlite, California
Oct 7, 2012 - 12:22pm PT
Quoting myself here: .10b can be pretty sporty when severe sciatica is combined with other peripheral neuropathies, such as partial paralysis like "drop foot." My meds work wonders, at least most of the time; hiking .10b while jacked up on PK's can be kinda fun, too. Recreational use? I suppose.

No one really knows how this class of meds actually works. Interestingly, morphine was first extracted from the poppy around the Civil War, while endorphins were not identified until the mid-70's. The Runner's High (which I miss very badly!) is produced by endogenous endorphins, the same which allow you to make it out of the mtns and into an ER with surprisingly little pain from a major trauma. Exogenous endorphines produce an identical sensation, although the downside is that a chronic administration results in a greatly reduced production of endogenous endorphins by your body.

The only real difference between CII and CIII PK's is that the former contains no acetaminophen, or other APAP additives. Hydrocodone is about 80% equialangesic to morphine sulphate. Both stimulate the mu receptor sites, and, in my case, the signal to my poor legs somehow telegraphs through, allowing me to continue such activities as walking...and a reasonable level of climbing. Among the side effects of these meds is an increased sense of self confidence. It's been very important for me to keep this in mind while engaged in rockclimbing and other sport, lest I aggravate the pre-existing spinal condition, or otherwise reinjure myself, and not be aware of it because the injury site pain has been masked by the dope.

And sometimes the damage from a reinflamation does not manifest itself for weeks, even months. It was to take me nearly a year to make the connection between a particularly bad and lengthy spell, and the squeeze chimney high on Moses. So, to this end I maintain a journal to help make the correlations which track certain activities to be avoided.

Needless to add that squeeze chimneys are right up at the top of that list!

I join with the tacobenders in hoping you a speedy recovery.

And, yes, negotiating with health care providers can be an effective tool. Prior to a major orthopedic surgery to reassemble my humerous, I informed my Dr. straight up that I was a self-pay patient - and he cut his fee in half. I then was to acquire health insurance, only to discover that a second procedure needed for the arm cost quite as much as the first, between the premiums; the annual deductable; and the fact that physicians and hospitals typical jack up their fees to offset the insurance accounting nightmare. Adding insult to injury is the fact that most insurers will only pay according to their own internal benefits schedules. And this can lead to a much larger copay than you might have been led to expect.

One tactic I've found of practical use in the past with hospitals, the most difficult of the lot with whom to negotiate, is to let their bill slide until they threaten to send it to a collections agency (whose fees may run 30%-50% of the base cost. And then, "if I FedEx you my payment today, will you accept $X?"

For post-op care of the non-union which developed in my humerous fracture, I was prescribed a electronic "Bone Growth Stimulator, a $5,000 contraption which seemed effective at promoting tachicardia, but little else. Blue Cross denied my claim, to which I responded with a brief letter from my attrn'y, alleging bad faith. Since the last thing a large corporation needs are hefty legal fees from their own legal dept, a $2,000 check was soon forthcoming. I then phoned the product's mf'r, and asked them if they'd be willing to settle for this amount. They were delighted too! I'm betting that they probably end up getting stiffed about half the time (which is probably why their product costs twice its actual value?) - I got the impression that they'd written me off months earlier.

During good economic times, I was one of the unhappy demographic who earned too much to qualify for financial assistance of any kind (while struggling to make ends meet in the meantime). Times have changed; my family and I now qualify for MediCal. And my monthly $300 - $500 cost of medications and Dr. visits is presently $0. I don't know what programs exist in NV, but it wouldn't hurt to check it out. Once, the local hospital zeroed out a $5,000 balance, with their own "Charity" program. All I had to do was to apply for MediCal, be DQ'd due to my assets, and provide the hospital with their letter to that effect. Undoubtably, the hospital's business department has access to a vast network a grant providers to tap into in such exingencies - that's what they're paid to do.

Hope this helps_
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