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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Feb 28, 2014 - 02:16pm PT
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I suspect that the single greatest contributor to wearing out belay loops is friction between rope and loop during falls
Disagree. Sawing at the leg loops connection much more likely. In a fall the rope would, at most, brush the side edge of my belay loop.
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slabbo
Trad climber
colo south
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Feb 28, 2014 - 02:23pm PT
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Hey Ron- i wish i still had my FISH SKINBELT from around '90..now THAT was a harness
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overwatch
climber
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Feb 28, 2014 - 03:23pm PT
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Seemed barely restrained to me but good nonetheless
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aspendougy
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Feb 28, 2014 - 03:25pm PT
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I have bit of a detective streak in me, and it would have been interesting to sort through Todd Skinner's gear after his untimely and tragic death, just to see what else was really worn through. Gear is costly, and sometimes people just put off spending the money, saying, "Just one more climb.........."
Among climbers, there is the whole gamut; guys like Werner and Todd who treat their gear very casually, and those who are totally meticulous.
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labrat
Trad climber
Auburn, CA
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Feb 28, 2014 - 03:31pm PT
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Surprise surprise. Coz taking pot shots at BD again.
Please post some facts Coz. Please support any of the below statements with facts. Please reread the last line of the excerpt of the Rock and Ice article.
Coz
"Once again, on all harnesses except Black Diamond the belay loop is the strongest part of the harness."
"A brand new Belay loop, with the exception of BD, will hold to 10,000 plus pounds."
BUSTED!
Don't bother Coz. I will post some for you. This is from an article in Rock and Ice.
http://www.rockandice.com/lates-news/busted?page=1
BELAY LOOPS. Every harness that had a belay loop was tested. Belay-loop strength ranged from 2,160 pounds to well over 8,818 pounds. Eight belay loops failed below 3,306 pounds. Six of these had been listed as usable in a pinch or by friends. Only one harness showed any visible signs of damage to the belay loop. Curiously, 23 belay loops of the same make and age from one source showed a range of strength values, with the highest breaking strength being 41 percent greater than the weakest. Another belay loop used on a variety of harness models returned from a variety of sources had a range from 3,527 pounds to 7,054 pounds. Clearly, quality control for some harnesses is lacking, but whether this is rampant throughout the industry is unknown. The average strength of all of the tested belay loops was 6,040 pounds.
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Offset
climber
seattle
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Feb 28, 2014 - 03:37pm PT
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Also, a rappel on a Grigri only uses half of the rope and, therefore, there is less rope to stretch and absorb force.
this is 10000% wrong..fyi
atc = two strands of rope
gri gri = 1 strand of rope
assume rope is a spring
atc = springs in parallel ==> stiffer effective spring = higher forces.
all other things being equal, one strand of rope is half the force on the system compared to two strands.
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drljefe
climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
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Feb 28, 2014 - 03:50pm PT
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Hey, FYI WTF- Yates won't resling older cams (10yrs).
I just did this and went to Fish. Better price and tubular webbing not dyneema. good workmanship from a cottage(or cabana as it were)business.
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Alpamayo
Trad climber
Sacramento, CA
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Feb 28, 2014 - 03:56pm PT
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Wired Bliss just re-slung about 12 cams of mine and also repaired a few trigger wires. They did an awesome job. (Aliens, Camalots, Metolius)
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labrat
Trad climber
Auburn, CA
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Feb 28, 2014 - 04:15pm PT
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Don't try to change the subject and add personal attacks again Coz. How about supporting your previous statements with the truth and some facts?
Same old Coz. Just a different login name....
edit. I'll take the dork part with a smile :-)
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WBraun
climber
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Feb 28, 2014 - 04:25pm PT
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Just be on safe side always.
After every climb throw all your gear into the dumpster and get new gear
just like the pros do .....
:-)
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WBraun
climber
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Feb 28, 2014 - 04:35pm PT
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Let Coz tell you how my gear was always top notch and perfect condition :-)
LOL
Our first climb together Coz sees my rope and imediately says holy sh!t !!! you lead Hahaha
Core shots everywhere LOL
Then a few years later he sees my rack and says that's the same fuked up rack you had years ago.
You're gonna die.
A couple of weeks later a mysterious package arrives with a brand new rack in it.
Coz was worried I would not survive another year with my original rack.
bless his soul.
Majid got scared looking at my tattered harness and gets me a brand new one.
Bless his soul.
My figure of eight when I came back from Borneo had grooves half way thru
it from all the grit in the static lines and people were telling me I'm gonna die using it still.
So I replaced it and break tested it.
It broke at 10,000 lbs .....
What me worry :-)
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Feb 28, 2014 - 04:41pm PT
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Holey Moley Werner--when I think of all those raps we used to do on your blown-out, core-shotted, tattered, thow-it-in-the-back-of-the-Lemans-where-you'd-repair-all-the-dirtbags-batteries-and-other-junk 7mm cord, I still cringe!
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WBraun
climber
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Feb 28, 2014 - 04:49pm PT
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Ducey
How the hell did we ever survive????
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WBraun
climber
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Feb 28, 2014 - 05:15pm PT
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Was it money or just the fact you thought it was still functioning and why replace it.
When you have core shots and only the sheath is damaged why worry? :-)
The core is strong enough? :-)
I once jugged the core because the sheath failed.
Nothing happened ... I'm still here :-)
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crunch
Social climber
CO
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Feb 28, 2014 - 05:25pm PT
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Back in the day, when my belay loop began to look worn I'd tie a short loop to be used in tandem with the original, frayed, belay loop. Kinda clunky but provided effective redundancy till the day I got around to buying a new harness.
Misty Mountain's recently redesigned Titan harness has a similar and much neater feature built in: two separate belay loops. One is neatly, snugly nested tight inside the other. They are both burly, rated to 6000 lbs.
Redundancy, built right in.
In use I just clip in my belay/rappel biner to both, never notice any difference. Only reason I even noticed this was that they use different colored webbing for both.
I think this was done in response to Todd's accident. Clever idea; almost Todd-proof
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labrat
Trad climber
Auburn, CA
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Feb 28, 2014 - 08:15pm PT
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"stop your sad little smear campaign"
Coz,
It's not me that has a problem. If harnesses are mentioned you bash BD. I get it.
It would be cool if you could demonstrate with data, demonstration, list of accidents, near accidents, pictures, or a picture of a diagram drawn on a well used napkin. Something!
You cannot. I get it.
I also use and own a bunch of BD gear. Do I own or use BD harnesses? No. Misty Mountain and Petzl harnesses? Yes, I just like them better because they suit my purposes.
Erik
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Rankin
Social climber
Greensboro, North Carolina
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Feb 28, 2014 - 11:18pm PT
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Coz is correct. Black Diamond only bar tacks through two of the three loops. No argument to be made here. This is a fact.
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labrat
Trad climber
Auburn, CA
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Rankin,
I never argued if the belay loop is double or triple. What I took issue with was the strength statements he made. Good job being distracted by coz's misdirection. I've read that BD has reasons for how they construct the belay loops. I believe the extra unbartacked wrap actually protects the bartack from abrasion. Please note the belay loop strengths noted in BD'a report compared to Coz's statements.
Erik
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Interesting data from the BD site linked to above:
How strong is a belay loop?
From the Black Diamond Harness Instructions: A Black Diamond harness belay loop can withstand 15 kN (3372 lbf) of force.
CE requirements: The CE required testing is a bit difficult to describe, but basically, the belay loop must withstand 15 kN for a period of 3 minutes.
Actual Black Diamond test data: Though our inline batch test rating is 3372 lbf, we regularly see belay loops test to over 6000 lbf, with a historical average of over 5000 lbf.
** Note: I've tested several other manufacturers' belay loops and they all are in the same ballpark for ultimate strength.
Coz, do you have a bone to pick with BD harnesses because you worked with their harness team and they didn't take your advice? Seems to me that BD harnesses are in line with other manufactures.
Also, bar-tacks through two of three layers of webbing seems fine to me. Perhaps a more important question is how many bar tacks does each manufacture use?
Still, the debate is moot--gear wears out and the longer you use old and worn gear, the higher the chance is the gear will fail due to wear. I hate throwing out ropes just because they are old. I had a rap line (a half line) that I rarely used for leading (love to double up that thing for simul-climbing). The thing was over 15 years old, and looked fine to me. Shucks, just a little more than body weight while rapping, right?
I got a new one, just because.
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