Todd Skinners failed harness - update

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Messages 81 - 100 of total 128 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
deuce4

climber
Hobart, Australia
Feb 28, 2014 - 04:41pm PT
Holey Moley Werner--when I think of all those raps we used to do on your blown-out, core-shotted, tattered, thow-it-in-the-back-of-the-Lemans-where-you'd-repair-all-the-dirtbags-batteries-and-other-junk 7mm cord, I still cringe!
WBraun

climber
Feb 28, 2014 - 04:49pm PT
Ducey

How the hell did we ever survive????
WTF

climber
Feb 28, 2014 - 05:06pm PT
I bet that Werner upgrades more than you think. He's picked up enough carcasses to know better than to use heavily used and worn gear.

Or not!

Just curious Duece and Werner.

Was it money or just the fact you thought it was still functioning and why replace it.

WBraun

climber
Feb 28, 2014 - 05:15pm PT
Was it money or just the fact you thought it was still functioning and why replace it.

When you have core shots and only the sheath is damaged why worry? :-)

The core is strong enough? :-)

I once jugged the core because the sheath failed.

Nothing happened ... I'm still here :-)
crunch

Social climber
CO
Feb 28, 2014 - 05:25pm PT
Back in the day, when my belay loop began to look worn I'd tie a short loop to be used in tandem with the original, frayed, belay loop. Kinda clunky but provided effective redundancy till the day I got around to buying a new harness.

Misty Mountain's recently redesigned Titan harness has a similar and much neater feature built in: two separate belay loops. One is neatly, snugly nested tight inside the other. They are both burly, rated to 6000 lbs.

Redundancy, built right in.

In use I just clip in my belay/rappel biner to both, never notice any difference. Only reason I even noticed this was that they use different colored webbing for both.

I think this was done in response to Todd's accident. Clever idea; almost Todd-proof
labrat

Trad climber
Auburn, CA
Feb 28, 2014 - 08:15pm PT
"stop your sad little smear campaign"

Coz,
It's not me that has a problem. If harnesses are mentioned you bash BD. I get it.

It would be cool if you could demonstrate with data, demonstration, list of accidents, near accidents, pictures, or a picture of a diagram drawn on a well used napkin. Something!

You cannot. I get it.

I also use and own a bunch of BD gear. Do I own or use BD harnesses? No. Misty Mountain and Petzl harnesses? Yes, I just like them better because they suit my purposes.

Erik
Rankin

Social climber
Greensboro, North Carolina
Feb 28, 2014 - 11:18pm PT
Credit: Rankin
Credit: Rankin
Credit: Rankin


Coz is correct. Black Diamond only bar tacks through two of the three loops. No argument to be made here. This is a fact.
labrat

Trad climber
Auburn, CA
Mar 1, 2014 - 02:38am PT
Rankin,
I never argued if the belay loop is double or triple. What I took issue with was the strength statements he made. Good job being distracted by coz's misdirection. I've read that BD has reasons for how they construct the belay loops. I believe the extra unbartacked wrap actually protects the bartack from abrasion. Please note the belay loop strengths noted in BD'a report compared to Coz's statements.
Erik
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Mar 1, 2014 - 12:01pm PT
Interesting data from the BD site linked to above:

How strong is a belay loop?
From the Black Diamond Harness Instructions: A Black Diamond harness belay loop can withstand 15 kN (3372 lbf) of force.

CE requirements: The CE required testing is a bit difficult to describe, but basically, the belay loop must withstand 15 kN for a period of 3 minutes.

Actual Black Diamond test data: Though our inline batch test rating is 3372 lbf, we regularly see belay loops test to over 6000 lbf, with a historical average of over 5000 lbf.

** Note: I've tested several other manufacturers' belay loops and they all are in the same ballpark for ultimate strength.


Coz, do you have a bone to pick with BD harnesses because you worked with their harness team and they didn't take your advice? Seems to me that BD harnesses are in line with other manufactures.

Also, bar-tacks through two of three layers of webbing seems fine to me. Perhaps a more important question is how many bar tacks does each manufacture use?


Still, the debate is moot--gear wears out and the longer you use old and worn gear, the higher the chance is the gear will fail due to wear. I hate throwing out ropes just because they are old. I had a rap line (a half line) that I rarely used for leading (love to double up that thing for simul-climbing). The thing was over 15 years old, and looked fine to me. Shucks, just a little more than body weight while rapping, right?

I got a new one, just because.
Rankin

Social climber
Greensboro, North Carolina
Mar 1, 2014 - 12:43pm PT
Talk about having an axe to grind. And I'm not talking about Coz either. Some of you need to quit looking for slights where there is none.
bhilden

Trad climber
Mountain View, CA/Boulder, CO
Mar 1, 2014 - 02:05pm PT
My partner and I climbed for a season in Yosemite on a rope that had multiple core shots. We just put adhesive tape over the worn spots on the sheath. Most of the strength of the rope is in the core. Anyone know of any tests on the strength of a rope with just the core versus core + sheath?
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Mar 1, 2014 - 02:40pm PT
Bruce, a buddy of mine used to say something like 25% of a rope's strength was in the sheath. I never saw any stats to back that up.


Who had the story of climbing on a harness made of 2" webbing, the original "swami belt", that had a taped section in the middle. Then, after some time using this "harness" realized that the tape in the middle was actually holding together the ends of two different sections of webbing??


Fantastico!
Roger Breedlove

climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
Mar 2, 2014 - 07:34am PT
The taped swami belt story is TM Herbert's, I think. May have been on an El Cap FA.
kennyt

Trad climber
Oregon
Mar 2, 2014 - 11:40am PT
And so it seems from the above^^^^ Black Diamond is another GE. Moving its manufacturing to CHINA. Its a corporation and all about the $$$$ while forsaking its originator and country. Sort of doubt it was the direction Yvon Chouinard would have preferred for his sold off company.

Take a look at where Patagonia clothing is made.
WBraun

climber
Mar 2, 2014 - 11:42am PT
The taped swami belt story is TM Herbert's,

Yes .... I believe it was on Sentinel and not El Cap ....
life is a bivouac

Trad climber
Mar 2, 2014 - 12:04pm PT
I believe the taped swami story could be cleared up by Don Lauria; I believe he was there when it happened...
WBraun

climber
Mar 2, 2014 - 12:06pm PT
I heard the story from TM himself but the route it happened on I forgot but pretty sure it was not El Cap ....
Gunkie

Trad climber
East Coast US
Mar 2, 2014 - 12:26pm PT
Once again, on all harnesses except Black Diamond the belay loop is the strongest part of the harness.

That's interesting, the harness in the image below is an old BD harness from 1996 which is still in use. And, yes, the belay loop does seem a bit light. With that said, I always back up the belay loop with a loop of cord. In the case below, it is 5.5mm Spectra. I also put a light swami belt/chalk bag holder loop of 1" tube webbing around my waist, tied in a water knot, and loop the climbing rope tie-in through that as an ultimate back-up.

A little extra weight is not going to effect my 5.9c- climbing abilities too much.

** I know the buckle is not buckled properly. But it's just holding air.

Old BD harness w/belay loop backup
Old BD harness w/belay loop backup
Credit: Gunkie
wivanoff

Trad climber
CT
Mar 2, 2014 - 01:08pm PT
Bruce Kay wrote:
Many years ago I was told by Dave Lane ( the principal genius behind Archteryx) that "in line" stitching ( my term... no idea what its called) is much superior per stitch or whatever, than the ubiquitous bar tack.


I think that's true.

"Off Belay" magazine had an article about sewing your own slings. They showed stitching patterns (multiple rows parallel to the length of the sling), type of thread, stitches per inch, length of splice, etc.

Looks like the same article was also published by Cal Magnussen here http://www.caves.org/section/vertical/nhback/NH03.pdf see page 11
rgold

Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
Mar 2, 2014 - 03:58pm PT
Here's the webbing test mentioned by Vivanoff as given in Nylon Highway.

Note that, forty years since those tests, specialized bar-tacking machines might do better than BITD.

Sewn Webbing Strength---Nylon Highway 3 Dec. 1974
Sewn Webbing Strength---Nylon Highway 3 Dec. 1974
Credit: rgold
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