Todd Skinners failed harness - update


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Feb 28, 2014 - 03:36pm PT
I agree my rack is old mostly second/third gen BD cams and first gen aliens and a handful of other stuff.

After this accident I replaced all my shoulder slings all my quickdraw bones and my harness and my rope. The rope was 8 years old not a lot of falls. My harness was 10 years old looked good but who knows. I did it due to age. I am now sending all my cams to Yates to be re slung with new webbing. Not worth the worry id rather be willing to fall and know my gears not old and worn.

I keep my gear in a box or a haul bag so it only sees the sun when its out climbing and away from the shelf full of chemicals in my garage.

I bet that Werner upgrades more than you think. He's picked up enough carcasses to know better than to use heavily used and worn gear.

Is it me but i hardly use my belay loop for anything. I use a locker for my raps through the leg loops and harness and i tie in the same way. I never tie into a belay loop. In fact the only purpose i see that for is for daisy chains wall climbing.


Feb 28, 2014 - 03:37pm PT

Also, a rappel on a Grigri only uses half of the rope and, therefore, there is less rope to stretch and absorb force.

this is 10000%

atc = two strands of rope
gri gri = 1 strand of rope

assume rope is a spring

atc = springs in parallel ==> stiffer effective spring = higher forces.

all other things being equal, one strand of rope is half the force on the system compared to two strands.


Trad climber
Auburn, CA
Feb 28, 2014 - 03:38pm PT
BD's testing of worn. Loops.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Feb 28, 2014 - 03:41pm PT
Indeed Slabbo! After the parachute rig i upgraded to a LOWE alpine harness and hangin round in those near kilt a body!

El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
Feb 28, 2014 - 03:50pm PT
Hey, FYI WTF- Yates won't resling older cams (10yrs).
I just did this and went to Fish. Better price and tubular webbing not dyneema. good workmanship from a cottage(or cabana as it were)business.

Feb 28, 2014 - 03:53pm PT
Thanks Jefe.

What was I thinking the Fish needs to work. ;)

Trad climber
Sacramento, CA
Feb 28, 2014 - 03:56pm PT
Wired Bliss just re-slung about 12 cams of mine and also repaired a few trigger wires. They did an awesome job. (Aliens, Camalots, Metolius)

Trad climber
Auburn, CA
Feb 28, 2014 - 04:15pm PT
Don't try to change the subject and add personal attacks again Coz. How about supporting your previous statements with the truth and some facts?

Same old Coz. Just a different login name....

edit. I'll take the dork part with a smile :-)


Feb 28, 2014 - 04:25pm PT
Just be on safe side always.

After every climb throw all your gear into the dumpster and get new gear
just like the pros do .....


Feb 28, 2014 - 04:35pm PT
Let Coz tell you how my gear was always top notch and perfect condition :-)


Our first climb together Coz sees my rope and imediately says holy sh!t !!! you lead Hahaha

Core shots everywhere LOL

Then a few years later he sees my rack and says that's the same fuked up rack you had years ago.

You're gonna die.

A couple of weeks later a mysterious package arrives with a brand new rack in it.

Coz was worried I would not survive another year with my original rack.

bless his soul.

Majid got scared looking at my tattered harness and gets me a brand new one.

Bless his soul.

My figure of eight when I came back from Borneo had grooves half way thru
it from all the grit in the static lines and people were telling me I'm gonna die using it still.

So I replaced it and break tested it.

It broke at 10,000 lbs .....

What me worry :-)


Hobart, Australia
Feb 28, 2014 - 04:41pm PT
Holey Moley Werner--when I think of all those raps we used to do on your blown-out, core-shotted, tattered, thow-it-in-the-back-of-the-Lemans-where-you'd-repair-all-the-dirtbags-batteries-and-other-junk 7mm cord, I still cringe!

Feb 28, 2014 - 04:49pm PT

How the hell did we ever survive????

Feb 28, 2014 - 05:06pm PT
I bet that Werner upgrades more than you think. He's picked up enough carcasses to know better than to use heavily used and worn gear.

Or not!

Just curious Duece and Werner.

Was it money or just the fact you thought it was still functioning and why replace it.


Social climber
Albuquerque, NM
Feb 28, 2014 - 05:08pm PT
From Labrat's link:

~75% cut through—both sides (not the best photo)—2918 lbf:

~ 90% cut through—one side—777 lbf:

Feb 28, 2014 - 05:15pm PT
Was it money or just the fact you thought it was still functioning and why replace it.

When you have core shots and only the sheath is damaged why worry? :-)

The core is strong enough? :-)

I once jugged the core because the sheath failed.

Nothing happened ... I'm still here :-)

Social climber
Feb 28, 2014 - 05:25pm PT
Back in the day, when my belay loop began to look worn I'd tie a short loop to be used in tandem with the original, frayed, belay loop. Kinda clunky but provided effective redundancy till the day I got around to buying a new harness.

Misty Mountain's recently redesigned Titan harness has a similar and much neater feature built in: two separate belay loops. One is neatly, snugly nested tight inside the other. They are both burly, rated to 6000 lbs.

Redundancy, built right in.

In use I just clip in my belay/rappel biner to both, never notice any difference. Only reason I even noticed this was that they use different colored webbing for both.

I think this was done in response to Todd's accident. Clever idea; almost Todd-proof

Trad climber
Auburn, CA
Feb 28, 2014 - 08:15pm PT
"stop your sad little smear campaign"

It's not me that has a problem. If harnesses are mentioned you bash BD. I get it.

It would be cool if you could demonstrate with data, demonstration, list of accidents, near accidents, pictures, or a picture of a diagram drawn on a well used napkin. Something!

You cannot. I get it.

I also use and own a bunch of BD gear. Do I own or use BD harnesses? No. Misty Mountain and Petzl harnesses? Yes, I just like them better because they suit my purposes.


Social climber
Greensboro, North Carolina
Feb 28, 2014 - 11:18pm PT
Credit: Rankin
Credit: Rankin
Credit: Rankin

Coz is correct. Black Diamond only bar tacks through two of the three loops. No argument to be made here. This is a fact.

Trad climber
Auburn, CA
Mar 1, 2014 - 02:38am PT
I never argued if the belay loop is double or triple. What I took issue with was the strength statements he made. Good job being distracted by coz's misdirection. I've read that BD has reasons for how they construct the belay loops. I believe the extra unbartacked wrap actually protects the bartack from abrasion. Please note the belay loop strengths noted in BD'a report compared to Coz's statements.

Gym climber
Mar 1, 2014 - 12:01pm PT
Interesting data from the BD site linked to above:

How strong is a belay loop?
From the Black Diamond Harness Instructions: A Black Diamond harness belay loop can withstand 15 kN (3372 lbf) of force.

CE requirements: The CE required testing is a bit difficult to describe, but basically, the belay loop must withstand 15 kN for a period of 3 minutes.

Actual Black Diamond test data: Though our inline batch test rating is 3372 lbf, we regularly see belay loops test to over 6000 lbf, with a historical average of over 5000 lbf.

** Note: I've tested several other manufacturers' belay loops and they all are in the same ballpark for ultimate strength.

Coz, do you have a bone to pick with BD harnesses because you worked with their harness team and they didn't take your advice? Seems to me that BD harnesses are in line with other manufactures.

Also, bar-tacks through two of three layers of webbing seems fine to me. Perhaps a more important question is how many bar tacks does each manufacture use?

Still, the debate is moot--gear wears out and the longer you use old and worn gear, the higher the chance is the gear will fail due to wear. I hate throwing out ropes just because they are old. I had a rap line (a half line) that I rarely used for leading (love to double up that thing for simul-climbing). The thing was over 15 years old, and looked fine to me. Shucks, just a little more than body weight while rapping, right?

I got a new one, just because.
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