I Like the Atheist Life (OT)

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Messages 821 - 840 of total 989 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
eeyonkee

Trad climber
Golden, CO
Oct 14, 2012 - 06:14pm PT
The fact is, Dennett, Dawkins, Pinker and all the rest share a common view on causation providing a mechanistic and materialistic take on reality. My point is not that they don't extrapolate out from there with all manner of examples and sorties here and there - into history, ethics, biology, law, politics, etc. - but rather their entire tottering inductive edifice is built on the belief that reality is fundamentally a material machine - with random and chaotic elements tossed in for "flavah," - but entirely "knowable" and quantifiable, and predictable.


I must've missed that last line in the paragraph above from Largo's previous post. Entirely knowable, quantifiable, and predictable? What are you talking about? That's not what most scientists believe, not stated like that (particularly the predictable part)! No wonder you're so off-base on this subject. I've got a new book for you to read, Chaos, by James Gleick.

And more than anything, don't call me CRAIG!
Malemute

Ice climber
the ghost
Oct 14, 2012 - 07:06pm PT


Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Oct 14, 2012 - 07:08pm PT
You guys are still whiffing on the pitch. I laid out a basic definition that serves as a supposition to all that follows. I quoted someone saying reality is knowable - and I'm told I don't understand. This is not a serious inquiry at all. Nor has anyone supplied a single instance in which the basic assumptions of physicalism are challenged in any way.

What's more, Fruity insists that those basic assumption are in fact a caricature of true physicalism, but offers no definitive explanation. I remember hearing the old rants served up by determinists - that the rest of us were too simplistic to understand the mind-boggling implications of how complicated and fantastic the machinery is that produces reality and experience; but ultimately we and reality itself are entirely dtermined by antecedent, mechanistic causes. Of course there are randomness and chaos theory and so forth, but the linchpin for all of this is something close to if the equal of classical determinism.

This is a major subject and there are many versions: causal determinism, fatalism, eco, psycho, linguistic, social, and even techo determinism. While the "single cause fallacy" has weakened the hegemony of determinism amongst honest thinkers, the crux for Dennett, and all the rest is devotion to cause-and-effect. That is, "events and entities within a given paradigm are bound by causality in such a way that any state (of an object or event) is completely determined by prior states."

Note that there is no mention of randomness or chaos theory or freaky quantum events which might bring in something from left field, not part of the main flow. In determinism, these left field offerings would be just one more prior event which "creates" the present, so determinism is still up and running despite random and chaotic factors.

This is not a caricature, nor does it become something else when we add in real world complexity because the basic tenets just quoted are in fact the basic tenets.

Note how the discursive mind cannot possibly square free will with determinism. They are mutually exclusive ideas. But nobody lives out this belief in the real world because we know it is merely a thought and a theory, not a fact. We know that we cannot go out and steal a car and tell the judge our grand theft was entirely caused by factors beyond our control - nothwithstanding that we stole the red and not the beige model because we like red.

JL


Malemute

Ice climber
the ghost
Oct 14, 2012 - 07:14pm PT
eeyonkee

Trad climber
Golden, CO
Oct 14, 2012 - 07:17pm PT
Largo, my wife says you are excruciating to read. I couldn't have said it better.

Edit:
You guys are still whiffing on the pitch. I laid out a basic definition that serves as a supposition to all that follows.

Actually, pompous and excruciating fits the bill a little better.
Malemute

Ice climber
the ghost
Oct 14, 2012 - 07:21pm PT
Malemute

Ice climber
the ghost
Oct 14, 2012 - 07:31pm PT
Largo, my wife says you are excruciating to read.
He's adequate on juvenile stuff like Close Calls.
But don't expect the Great American Novel.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Oct 14, 2012 - 08:55pm PT
Malemute,

Very cool video selection today!
eeyonkee

Trad climber
Golden, CO
Oct 14, 2012 - 08:59pm PT
I concur about Malemute's videos. That video that Splitter found is also good.
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Oct 14, 2012 - 09:10pm PT
I liked Gleick's book when I read it as a non-physics grad student ('85?). So many of us wanted to use the theory to explain many things (e.g., innovation, entrepreneurship). It turned out that to really get it, you had to be able to do the math--which is way advanced. Nonlinear dynamics and chaos are seriously hard subjects.

I think that illustrates the same problem that dilettantes have reading in multiple fields of study. Broad but shallow sampling of topics doesn't really get a person anywhere. It seems one needs to chose a very few and then dig way down.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Oct 14, 2012 - 09:49pm PT
Largo

Please forgive my friends here, for they know not what they do

I MEAN, They know what they do, just not why!

Jus Apologize'in
BB
eeyonkee

Trad climber
Golden, CO
Oct 14, 2012 - 09:51pm PT
So, um, remind me MikeL what your background is such that you are presumeably not a dilettente on these subjects? What a completely imbecilic thing to say.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Oct 14, 2012 - 10:05pm PT
lol,

hey I thought we all had an understanding on these threads at the fire that I was to play the Bad Cop in this drama!

you ARE ornery this week! or at least playing out of character.

funny sh!t, carry on!
eeyonkee

Trad climber
Golden, CO
Oct 14, 2012 - 10:07pm PT
You know, it's like on Friday, I woke up punk.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Oct 15, 2012 - 01:57pm PT

Are you being bad cop or good cop now?

Somebody said it best earlier;

When a foolish man is confronted he either gets angry or laughs.

Think about it; see if this pertains to you...

Jus Bumm'in
BB


eeyonkee

Trad climber
Golden, CO
Oct 15, 2012 - 03:59pm PT
MikeL, in rereading your last post, it occurs to me that I may have taken what you said wrongly. It sure seemed to me that you were suggesting that I was a dilettente and had only had shallow knowledge of what I was talking about. if you did not intend this, I apologize - in fact, I apologize in any case. I also apologize for getting too personal with Largo. With respect to Largo, I DO think he throws his weight around in some of these threads in a way that seems very arrogant to me. For some reason I was especially sensitive to that this past weekend. As HFCS apparently knows, I'm more typically an easy-going guy who tries to make people laugh.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Oct 15, 2012 - 04:58pm PT
Of course I throw my weight around. It's part of the circus.

So call me a light weight. I'm excruciating because I won't back off.

The reasons people get bent is that they are not used to having their core beliefs challenged. The most challenging thing to the atheist camp is that scientism is simply another perspective and that quantification is not the last word. Most atheists have on a psychological level simply swapped out physicalism with "God," and now material reductionism is the last word. I say bollocks. Real science, not science fiction, is a fantastic tool. But when we have "neuroscientists" claiming to make machines that can love and people insisting that looking at objective brain funcioning is the very same as looking at experience itself, I have to chime in on what to me seems lile manifest gibberish.

And Malemute - pry your head out of that bear trap for a sec. I have some "adequate" real estate on Mars for you and it's your for free once you show all us dummies the very quadrant of the brain that "creates" self awareness, or failing that - a "simplistic" take on consciousness if ever there was one - at which point and how does raw awareness become an "emergent function" or epiphenomenon in this here space and time.

JL
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Oct 15, 2012 - 05:00pm PT
See, you're too nice for these debate threads.

No worries, though, I'll put these pinhead knuckledraggers in their place as required.

.....

Ah, I see Largo just posted...

Case in point, if they weren't looking to mix it up some they probably wouldn't come to these threads in the first place particularly with the rhetoric or vocabulary they use or their caricatures of science or whatever.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Oct 15, 2012 - 05:03pm PT
John Long

curious, if you would

Do you personally believe that there IS a supreme being, a god?

And if so, that the god you believe in does indeed take a personal interest in humans?

And if so, did this god "create" the physical universe this earth is a part of?

And if so, did this god "allow" evolution or even direct evolution to occur on this earth, with the intent being the resultant human species evolved to present day level?
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Oct 15, 2012 - 05:05pm PT
In short, I wonder why Blue and Largo just don't go hook up?

.....

By the way, BlueBR, confess if you would: Are you this Illusion Dweller (aka Truthdweller) guy?
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