I Like the Atheist Life (OT)

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Messages 1 - 851 of total 851 in this topic
khanom

Trad climber
Greeley Hill
Topic Author's Original Post - Aug 29, 2012 - 12:15am PT
I thought it would be nice to have a thread where SuperTopo Atheists could tell tell their story and make a statement of their lack of blind faith.

Format:

1. What happened that lead you to follow the trail to Atheism? How did you find your lack of blind faith?

2. How does god™ being dead help you deal with life? What do you have that helps you to take comfort in the Atheist Life?

3. What is your affiliation? Union of Concerned Scientists? Atheists Alliance International? Or perhaps a local group or person you would like to acknowledge? Perhaps you follow atheism from within, unaffiliated with any group.

Please let others tell their story, hold your reactions, criticize on other threads and let the Atheists, or whatever lack of blind faith they may have post here, be proud of who they are being for a moment.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Aug 29, 2012 - 12:20am PT
Oh you do , do you...?
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Aug 29, 2012 - 12:20am PT
I thought the Eldo Route "Blind Faith" was wicked cool. but I try not to be judgmental.
WBraun

climber
Aug 29, 2012 - 12:22am PT
I respect the atheist.

Better to remain an atheist than to preach a bunch of bullsh!t religion and mislead people.

High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Aug 29, 2012 - 12:23am PT
Khanom, well done, apropos thread, indeed.

I look forward to hearing the testimonials and perhaps even giving a few.


.....

Nice to see the term "atheist" spelled correctly as well, at least in the thread title.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Aug 29, 2012 - 12:23am PT
I had atheist foot once...Eating a Dessenex burger rid me of the fungus...
Some Random Guy

Trad climber
San Franpsycho (a.k.a. a token of my extreme)
Aug 29, 2012 - 12:30am PT
I'm tired of feeling like I live in a country that automatically condemns anyone who doesn't have "faith" as somehow abnormal.
amen.....wait is that an oxymoron by saying that?!?!
jstan

climber
Aug 29, 2012 - 12:37am PT
Neither of my parents' families were church goers. When I was maybe four or five they once took us to the local presbyterian church. I spent the whole bloody morning coloring squirrels. When we got home my mom asked me if I wanted to go again. I said I had too much to do to go wasting time that way. I thought of adding that I did not view crayons as a promising career path for me. But decided to keep my own counsel.

When a little older I started a self-improvement project ( I still could use one) and undertook to read the bible from cover to cover. I got several pages into accounts of begetting and decided two things.
1. These people must have been really horny.
2. They were more interested in who their father was than what anyone thought it was right to do.

I didn't like them at all.

That was that.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Aug 29, 2012 - 12:43am PT
I'm a born-again atheist every morning.
ß Î Ø T Ç H

Boulder climber
bouldering
Aug 29, 2012 - 12:53am PT
An easy red flag when you gotta attack others to make your point (OP).
snowhazed

Trad climber
Oaksterdam, CA
Aug 29, 2012 - 02:39am PT
Anyone with an education in Philosophy or Rhetoric is bound to react viscerally to organized religion- language is just too pliable, and evidence is king since the enlightenment.

I find the US to be a pretty tolerant place to live as a secular humanist- but then again I run around in narrow circles of the educated, and the artistic. I think the hype about how psycho religious this society is, is just that: hype.

Sure the evangelicals (in all religious bents) are scary f#cks, but they are a minority.

I think there is a fine line between agnosticism and atheism- and I also think you can be both. I am atheist in that I disbelieve all theistic constructions and attempts at meta-physics. But I also reserve the right to find full awe at the universe, cosmology, quantum theory, mathematics in general, the technology it has all spawned. I also reserve the right to admit first hand experience of existential ennui and the profound paradox that seems inherent and in fact required for all feedback loops, all life, all consciousness. So by that I am agnostic- because the ride is pretty damn cool- and I just don't know.
squishy

Mountain climber
Aug 29, 2012 - 03:47am PT
should be here..

[Click to View YouTube Video]
paganmonkeyboy

climber
mars...it's near nevada...
Aug 29, 2012 - 08:26am PT
I've personally only got a beef with those few religions that profess non-believers will spend eternity in some sort of hell...That just seems elitist and exclusionary to me, very offensive actually...

All the other religions are cool in my book though ;-)
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Aug 29, 2012 - 08:58am PT
I was baptized and raised a Catholic, priests, nuns (and lay teachers) in the Catholic school (until I got kicked out), altar boy (weddings were great, the groom would slip you some money and the bride's father as well), all that stuff, when I was nine I wanted to be the first American pope. When I was ten I wanted to be an astronaut, (always reaching for the heavens in one way or another).

But over the years, none of it made real sense for me (and I also saw enough hypocrites at mass), 'rotten' six days of the week, but angels and saints on Sundays).

Okay to believe in a deity/faith helps some people, coolaboola, I have no problem with that.

It is the fanatics of any religion (or no religion for that matter) that bother me. I can take the moderates any day.

When Jennie was in hospital recently, an elderly woman in a bed in Jen's room (there was generally four beds to the room in St Anne's Ward) was visited by her daughter, a nun.

Katherine (her name) and I talked for a while, it was interesting and 'fun' (no, not 'fun with the nun', for those of you who may be dirty minded, heh heh). I told her that I was an avowed atheist and evolutionist, and she was okay with that, no preaching. And I wasn't bothered by her vocation.

People with sense, the moderates, can get along, but throw a fundamentalist nut in the mix, and that is when the problems start.

When evangelists of any sort (Seventh Day Adventists, Mormon, Jehovah's, 'non-aligned', whoever) come to the door (will gates now and press the intercom) I come out to meet them, and when I realize why they are there, I tell them, politely, that I am an avowed atheist, that I do not believe in God, but in nature and the goodness of human beings. Thank you and have a good day. Once in a while there is the persistent one, so I just go back into the house.
Gunkie

Trad climber
East Coast US
Aug 29, 2012 - 09:25am PT
I'm in. Was brought up by parents who were deeply religious early in their respective lives and dropped it once they got married in NYC City Hall because each was of a different religion (mom=southern baptist, dad=eastern orthodox) and my dad's side sent death threats to my mom, quite the wake up call. So I was never indoctrinated with religious precepts and revealed truths... And my Sundays were free and clear then and remain so to this day.

My wife was selectively religious when we first met. I have since broken her of that fence-sitting and she fell onto the evil non-believer side with me. However, she did send two of our kids to a Lutheran pre-school where my son began to believe in hell and that god is vengeful. Yikes, had to break him of that.

I can say that the entire Gunkie Gang is now living on the evil side of the fence. More can be learned from the attached video below.

[Click to View YouTube Video]
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Aug 29, 2012 - 09:41am PT
Many immigrants came here for freedom of religion, hopefully, someday, freedom from religion will include avowed atheists being successful in the political arena.
MisterE

Social climber
Aug 29, 2012 - 09:58am PT
This thread has already been done recently, Khanom - although it was spelled incorrectly

http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/1907498/I-love-the-athiest-life-OT
Chinchen

climber
Way out there....
Aug 29, 2012 - 10:36am PT
Raised a non-denominational pastors kid. Was loved but controlled.


Grew up, moved out and discovered that I had no motivations to continue the sham.


Drank beer ,had sex, did drugs.


Mushrooms taught me that everything around me is full of unconditional love and that god as I had been taught was an unnecessary and contrived wast of my time and energy.


Decided to live every day for the present and to learn and grow as a human till I go back to sleep at the other end of my lucky life.
10b4me

Ice climber
dingy room at the Happy boulders hotel
Aug 29, 2012 - 11:51am PT
Unfortunately because of the bullshit that organized religions espouse, people have no alternative other than to become atheists.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Aug 29, 2012 - 11:52am PT
Once again, the Virtuous Pagans are excluded. Sheesh!
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Aug 29, 2012 - 09:36pm PT
Squishy, might I presume you related to what Sam Harris said?

Anyways, thanks for super-tweeting his ideas.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Aug 29, 2012 - 09:49pm PT
why do we have two atheist threads?

are we evangelizing?
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Aug 29, 2012 - 09:52pm PT
Perhaps I am the only one who cares about the proper spelling of atheist?

Btw, evangelizing merely means... getting the message out. Only Christian evangelizing has given the word a crappy side.

Evangelizing science, also the value of science education, are good things.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Aug 29, 2012 - 10:07pm PT
Anyone with an education...

Alright, a science education then.

Organized religions in Abrahamic form are a crockpot of bronze-age misconceptions institutionalized when it comes to truth-claims regarding how the world works. Straight as that.

Anyone who is science and history literate will realize this and anyone with a backbone will take a stand to evangelize this in the interest of human civilization.

Unless he is so old or worn down or burned out he just doesn't care anymore. (There are umpteen millions in this camp.)

Blessed are the young people (with unbounding energy) who push the envelope into terra incognita.
P.Rob

Social climber
Pacomia, Ca - Y Que?
Aug 29, 2012 - 10:21pm PT
Anyone with an education...

Alright, a science education then

In his personal testimony, Dr. Schaefer writes that on his fourth year as a faculty member at UC Berkeley, he became a Christian. Ever since, he has made the most of his opportunities as a gifted chemist and teacher to speak on the topics of faith and science to a wide, mostly college audience. Dr. Schaefer speaks convincingly that one can be a credible scientist and a committed Christian, that the scientific view is not necessarily opposed to the religious. Dr. Schaefer is also willing to speak about his personal experiences and struggles as a Christian, including having to deal with the death of his adopted infant son to Sudden Infant Death Syndrome (SIDS). A man of unquestioned intelligence, with a passion for sharing his faith, Dr. Schaefer almost left his faculty position at the University of Georgia when he was criticized for being too outspoken about God (which was quickly resolved in his favor). Dr. Schaefer is the Graham Perdue Professor of Chemistry and the director of the Center for Computational Quantum Chemistry at the University of Georgia. He has authored more than 900 scientific publications. He has been recognized as one of the most cited chemists in the world and was nominated for the Nobel Prize. He graduated from M.I.T. and has a Ph.D. in chemical physics from Stanford University
http://www.veritas.org/Presenters.aspx?pid=23


Does this qualify?


P.S. Evangelism is derived from the Greek word euaggelion, meaning “gospel” or “good news.” The verbal forms of euaggelizesthai, meaning “to bring” or “to announce good news” occur some fifty-five times (Acts 8:4, Acts 8:25, Acts 8:35; Acts 11:20) and are normally translated with the appropriate form of the word “preach.” Evangelism has to do with the proclamation of the message of good news.

High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Aug 29, 2012 - 10:32pm PT
It's too bad me and Fruity could never team up
He is just a little judgemental to aid a fellow traveler, and instead bites the hand that feeds him

Dr. F,

but I think we are something of a team already. Maybe good cop bad cop fits the bill? Yeah, and you're the good cop, m'kay? ;)

We gotta keep the pot stirred, that's what evolution working on these so-called "culture wars" needs to work its best.

We're like different players on the gridiron, that's all. We may have different strategies and moves but we both have the very same multi-strategy playbook, and we both know where the goal line is. That's what matters.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Aug 29, 2012 - 10:35pm PT
Sorry P. Rob, there are always exceptions, but face the facts. In a country, by all measures extremely religious, only 7% of eminent scientists (those elected to the National Academy of Sciences) believe in a personal god.
P.Rob

Social climber
Pacomia, Ca - Y Que?
Aug 29, 2012 - 10:45pm PT
“Belief is a wise wager. Granted that faith cannot be proved, what harm will come to you if you gamble on its truth and it proves false? If you gain, you gain all; if you lose, you lose nothing. Wager, then, without hesitation, that He exists.”
― Blaise Pascal, Pensées

There is a God shaped vacuum in the heart of every man which cannot be filled by any created thing, but only by God, the Creator, made known through Jesus.
Blaise Pascal


A survey of scientists who are members of the American Association for the Advancement of Science, conducted by the Pew Research Center for the People & the Press in May and June 2009, finds that members of this group are, on the whole, much less religious than the general public.1 Indeed, the survey shows that scientists are roughly half as likely as the general public to believe in God or a higher power. According to the poll, just over half of scientists (51%) believe in some form of deity or higher power; specifically, 33% of scientists say they believe in God, while 18% believe in a universal spirit or higher power. By contrast, 95% of Americans believe in some form of deity or higher power, according to a survey of the general public conducted by the Pew Research Center in July 2006. Specifically, more than eight-in-ten Americans (83%) say they believe in God and 12% believe in a universal spirit or higher power. Finally, the poll of scientists finds that four-in-ten scientists (41%) say they do not believe in God or a higher power, while the poll of the public finds that only 4% of Americans share this view
Mr. Donini of all the folks on threads of these currents you have modeled, IMO, the most consistent and decent personality. Unfortunately many have chosen to behave in the very fashion they rail against “ If you do not believe like me than you are & a ” – Just fill in the blank with ones favorite pejorative - Nothing sweet or learned about them – base name calling, and E thuggery. Different sides of the same evil coin.


P.S. wikipedia is not always the best source Mr.D
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Aug 29, 2012 - 10:51pm PT
I agree with you P.Rob, it seems that where religion or politics are concerned, intelligent discourse is often replaced by vitriol and ad hominen arguments. Too bad, arguments can be presented in a collegial manner and still carry weight.
P.Rob

Social climber
Pacomia, Ca - Y Que?
Aug 29, 2012 - 10:58pm PT
I agree with you P.Rob, it seems that where religion or politics are concerned intelligent, discourse is often replaced by vitriol and ad hominen arguments. Too bad, arguments can be presented in a collegial way and still carry weight.


And in that fashion that’s what makes them …… well fun. Test my faith; challenge what I believe in …. Make me think. Start getting ugly and resort to name calling – especially behind an avatar or some other pseudonym …………… really? Thank you Jim for operating with reason
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Aug 29, 2012 - 11:08pm PT
If you do not believe like me than you are...

Curious, can anyone find the name-calling, "E- thuggery" (whatever that is), etc. that this P.Rob guy has alluded to in his last couple of posts on this thread?

Or is he just blowing smoke? Maybe I'll check to see if there's any context on the other thread (you know, the one with the misspelled title) that might substantiate his claim. Otherwise he's just another phony trotting out the usual "defender of the faith" pablum.

.....

Yeah, we progressive atheists (for lack of a better word, presently) dare point out "aborting zygotes isn't murdering people," for example, or dare express our claim that angels and demons don't exist any more than unicorns... and we are called "haters." ("Haters" spewing "vitriol," etc.)

If you can't stand the heat get out of the kitchen. Like Campbell says, if you don't participate then you're on the sidelines. And if you participate and don't give as good as you get, you get rolled over. So it's not nearly so simple as we all would like. Hence what we witness, and what we have, in politics and these culture wars and in history at large.

Personally, I think your posts are spineless, P.Rob. WADR.

(Tsk, is that name calling?)

.....


EDIT to ADD

From my quick research, it seems Bluering was the most incendiary of the herd, hiterto. Isn't Bluering a Christian?
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Aug 29, 2012 - 11:40pm PT
From my quick research, it seems Bluering was the most incendiary of the herd, hiterto. Isn't Bluering a Christian?

oh yes, Blue often professed his Christian faith
MisterE

Social climber
Aug 29, 2012 - 11:46pm PT
Leave it to the Christians to insert their rage of belief into anything that threatens/opposes their sense of righteousness.

Such is the life of secularity - aren't the rest of us happy we don't have to spend so much energy to make others conform to our beliefs?

It is such an easier process not having the "leaden book" to make me behave like some sort of religious crack addict.
WBraun

climber
Aug 30, 2012 - 12:22am PT
Yer all religious nut cases yourselves.

Religiously posting on Supertopo daily with stupid meaningless advice ........
Chinchen

climber
Way out there....
Aug 30, 2012 - 02:50am PT
Talk about lead book. I had a principle at a christian school I went to hit me over the head with his bible once. Hard.

Didn't work. What an as#@&%e.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Aug 30, 2012 - 11:05am PT
I remember when peeple thought you were just a punk.

People? Wasn't that mostly the girls (and those defending them) because I wouldn't give em a free pass on their supernatural beliefs, lol!

Evangelizing science, YouTube gets the modern good news out to the masses...

[Click to View YouTube Video]


No free passes for girls, they need to know science in the modern age as much as the boys. More so, if it's going to be a woman's world. -Which seems to be the way it's trending, sorry boys. ;)
maldaly

Trad climber
Boulder, CO
Aug 30, 2012 - 12:01pm PT
I finally gave myself permission to say I didn't believe in god after listening to this wonderful monologue by Julia Sweeney:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bqh53RCkURQ (This will take to part one of 13 parts. Part 2 will appear on the upper right of your screen while you're watching part 1, etc, etc.)

It's also available from Amazon to download to your iPhone or whatever. Makes a great road story. The whole story last about 90 minutes.

Mal
Gunkie

Trad climber
East Coast US
Aug 30, 2012 - 12:19pm PT
Here's the whole 2 hour Julia Sweeney - Letting go of God in one file.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ri3-DpSn7AA&feature=related

One day I'll have to load this onto a portable player and listen to it on a plane flight.
Daphne

Trad climber
Black Rock City
Aug 30, 2012 - 03:35pm PT
I'm not an atheist but I am so grateful for a thread that spells it right. Thank you! I am an intolerant speller, I wish I wasn't --but I am.
maldaly

Trad climber
Boulder, CO
Aug 30, 2012 - 03:57pm PT
Thanks Gunkie. It was listening to this on a road trip that led me to believe that, finally, it was okay to not believe in god.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Aug 31, 2012 - 12:02am PT

http://connecticut.cbslocal.com/2012/08/30/national-atheist-party-cancels-convention-due-to-lack-of-funding/
MisterE

Social climber
Aug 31, 2012 - 12:18am PT
Daphne: spelling is at least forgivable...or maybe not?

Haha! You believe in correct spelling! I was raised a rabidly-proper American English, and yet I can forgive.

Where is the tolerance when one needs it? :)

Here is a link to remind you how far down the rabbit-hole one can go:

http://books.google.com/books/about/Miss_Manners_Guide_to_Excruciatingly_Cor.html?id=FOodocaTLsMC

;)



Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Aug 31, 2012 - 12:24am PT
She doesn't understand the freedom inherent, in, punctuation, though, especially periods.

Edit, I mean, commas,!
Daphne

Trad climber
Black Rock City
Aug 31, 2012 - 01:48am PT
^^^ you know how your use of commas drives me crazy! argh!!

Seems the most preferred ways of misspelling Daphne are
Daffeney
Daphine
Daffnie

I was also raised in a home that demanded perfect English-- the intolerant belief system i acquired in that home has been hard to shake.

On the other hand, my father was an impassioned atheist. What happened to me?
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Aug 31, 2012 - 05:43pm PT
^^^^^^

And yes, the English language is one of the most flexible. Though I love French and the lyrical italian, just for example, English has proven to be the most adaptable, not such a bad thing, which is why I suppose it is the international language (apologies to Francophones).

As a copy editor/sub-editor, I have to be pedantic in my job, but as a writer, screw it, conventions go out the window.

From an avowed atheist, and I ain't going back.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Aug 31, 2012 - 06:49pm PT
People in foxholes are better off keeping their heads down than praying.
WBraun

climber
Aug 31, 2012 - 06:49pm PT
The sound vibrations of the English language still has no real potency.

Take for example the word water.

That word when vibrated is not water.

There are words when sound vibrated that are absolute when vibrated without offenses.

Those words will act just like medicine will act whether one believes or not.

This why I say the mundane gross material mental speculators have no potency.

And they don't .......
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Aug 31, 2012 - 06:55pm PT
Werner, I have to admit that when I start to read some of your posts the voice in my head suddenly shifts to José Jiménez.
Daphne

Trad climber
Black Rock City
Aug 31, 2012 - 07:17pm PT
:)
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Aug 31, 2012 - 09:52pm PT
I especially like climbing with atheists.

You can tell all the politically-incorrect, off-color religious jokes you want (recall Pate's best jokes thread) and you can talk all you want about religions and their nonsense in the style of George Carlin open and freely without having to always check your language.

Climbing with hardcore supernaturalists whether Christian or Muslim wouldn't ever be my first pick. (Birds of a feather flock together, it's only natural.) But maybe I'll have to at some point when I'm older - beggars can't be choosy. :)

.....

Thought for the day: If Clint Eastwood can talk to an empty chair, then why can't Christians pray to an ancient carpenter whose bones have long turned to dust?
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Aug 31, 2012 - 10:04pm PT
in the style of George Carlin open and freely without having to always check your language.


 Mainly because anyone who is offended by "George Carlin" style humor is a f*#kin pussy, and leads to the "pussification" of the American male.


In my view one of the reasons for climbing is to push thy self to thy limit right?
Or at the very least have a bunch of fun within one's limits…

How often have you heard anyone thanking god when they got to the top of a climb?
I'd be the guy on belay yelling up "YOU ONLY HAVE YOURSELF TO THANK… YOU DID ALL THAT WORK AND YOUR F*#KING TRAINING AND PERSEVERANCE GOT YOU TO THE TOP OF THAT CLIMB!!!

Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Aug 31, 2012 - 11:45pm PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]


I agree with this clip….. Is it possible that, when those who have had those "at one with the universe" moments it's only happening because that is an instance where a single person has let go of their self, their ego, and their thought of what makes them them, they have let go enough to see, feel and understand that they are the universe. That all that is found in the universe is found in each of us and is accessible by all if only we could let go of the self, the ego and the self imposed (or societal imposed) limits we all seem to want to place on ourselves and each other.

ms55401

Trad climber
minneapolis, mn
Sep 1, 2012 - 12:56am PT
yer gonna burn in hell forever, and then some more
ms55401

Trad climber
minneapolis, mn
Sep 1, 2012 - 12:58am PT
I am an intolerant speller, I wish I wasn't --but I am.

but apparently you is not so good at teh grammar

healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Sep 1, 2012 - 12:58am PT
Or at the very least have a bunch of fun within one's limits…

Sometimes I think the real fun doesn't start until I'm one move past my limits.
MisterE

Social climber
Sep 1, 2012 - 01:27am PT
Time for some Atheist jokes - I know you won't be offended.


A Jew, A Catholic, and an atheist are rowing in Lake Erie when their boat springs a huge leak. The Jew looks skyward, and says “Oh, Adonai, if you save me, I promise I’ll sail to Israel and spend the rest of my days trying to reclaim the land you gave us.” The Catholic looks skyward, and says, “Oh, Jesus, if you save me, I promise I’ll fly to the Vatican and spend the rest of my days singing your praises.” The atheist says, “Oh, guys, if you pass me that one life preserver, I promise I’ll swim to Cleveland.” “And how will you spend the rest of your days?” the Jew and the Catholic ask. “Well,” says the atheist, “I’m not sure, but I can tell you one thing: I’ll never go rowing with other atheists.”


An atheist buys an ancient lamp at an auction, takes it home, and begins to polish it. Suddenly, a genie appears, and says, “I’ll grant you three wishes, Master.” The atheist says, “I wish I could believe in you.” The genie snaps his fingers, and suddenly the atheist believes in him. The atheist says, “Wow. I wish all atheists would believe this.” The genie snaps his fingers again, and suddenly atheists all over the world begin to believe in genies. “What about your third wish?” asks the genie. “Well,” says the atheist, “I wish for a billion dollars.” The genie snaps his fingers for a third time, but nothing happens. “What’s wrong?” asks the atheist. The genie shrugs and says, “Just because you believe in me, doesn’t necessarily mean that I really exist.”

Daphne

Trad climber
Black Rock City
Sep 1, 2012 - 03:51am PT
Who needs grammar? I seem to need words spelled in the traditionally accepted way. I can figure out the rest without suffering. Maybe I should head over to the christian thread (where I also don't belong) and start a conversation about how I should judge not lest I be judged. :)
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Sep 1, 2012 - 04:46am PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Sep 1, 2012 - 03:03pm PT
People? Wasn't that mostly the girls (and those defending them) because I wouldn't give em a free pass on their supernatural beliefs, lol!



Did you. by chance, lavish your promising childhood years playing "toll booth assessor", Officer Fructose?

...vowing no "free pass" to the servile, the subservient and the "uncritical thinkers" at YOUR kiosk?

I, for one, am bouyed up by your commitment to the corporal.

May you continue in your allegiance to doubt and materialism...







...and may you continue writing internet funnies ! :-)
Lynne Leichtfuss

Trad climber
Will know soon
Sep 1, 2012 - 03:32pm PT
So many friends on this thread. It's a blessing to be included in the campfire!

I can only live my life. What other's believe is their life. Paul called himself chief of sinners....I include myself in that. Meaning how could I possibly point a finger and demand people conform to my beliefs. I have enough challenges trying to live what I believe.

Bottom line....I believe there is a Creator-Father which includes my best friend, jesus. If he truly is God then he can touch peoples lives. All I can do is live to the best, His principles.

Thought for a long time that even if there is no "higher being" I would be very happy with how I have tried to live. The book has truths that have changed my life, especially it has been there for me the past 4 plus years....as has the wonderful Taco community and of course my family and friends.

Hope this makes sense cause I'm hurring out to worship in the cathedral called the Eastern Sierra.

Love and Joy, Peace and Blessings from lynnie

PS, special shout out to each one of you especially Khanom. Daphne I MISS yo. Good to see you recently Jaybro.
MisterE

Social climber
Sep 1, 2012 - 08:25pm PT
Look what showed up in the mail today - LOL!

High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Sep 1, 2012 - 08:52pm PT
My "allegiance"... when it comes to my own "practice of living" concerns more trust than doubt... concerns respect for reason and evidence... last but not least, concerns belief, not nonbelief. I am not a nonbeliever, I am a believer.

My "allegiance" accentuates the positive.

.....

re: deification

Jesus, crucified and succeeding that, deified. That's more like it.

Jesus: Crucified and deified. (Kind of a catchy ring, wouldn't you say?) That's the real truth of it.

If you don't know what deification is (a great many Christians don't), look it up. You'll see that our species has a rich and storied history in deification.

"If he's greater than me, he must be a God." (Yeah, that's it.)

All people interested in human civilization - its continuation - should hold the feet of the great historical figure - Jesus of Nazareth - to the fires of reason and research to see if in fact his status doesn't amount more to deification than to divinity.

Of course, we all know where the irreligious believers of science and the good life stand on this point, don't we? :)
P.Rob

Social climber
Pacomia, Ca - Y Que?
Sep 1, 2012 - 08:57pm PT
Or is he just blowing smoke? Maybe I'll check to see if there's any context on the other thread (you know, the one with the misspelled title) that might substantiate his claim. Otherwise he's just another phony trotting out the usual "defender of the faith" pablum.

Personally, I think your posts are spineless, P.Rob. WADR.

Mr. jarabe de maíz alto en fructosa the intent of my spineless posts were two fold:

1) The simple and continuing generalization of people of faith as of having no active intellect or ability let alone a passing knowledge of science. So in short I posted a quick reference to Dr. Henry “Fritz” Schaefer to dispute such a contention. Here is a more in depth biography of Dr. Fritz
Biographical Sketch
Dr. Henry "Fritz" Schaefer

Henry F. Schaefer III was born in Grand Rapids, Michigan in 1944. He attended public schools in Syracuse (New York), Menlo Park (California), and Grand Rapids (Michigan), graduating from East Grand Rapids High School in 1962. He received his B.S. degree in chemical physics from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology (1966) and Ph.D. degree in chemical physics from Stanford University (1969). For 18 years (1969-1987) he served as a professor of chemistry at the University of California, Berkeley. During the 1979-1980 academic year he was also Wilfred T. Doherty Professor of Chemistry and inaugural Director of the Institute for Theoretical Chemistry at the University of Texas, Austin. Since 1987 Dr. Schaefer has been Graham Perdue Professor of Chemistry and Director of the Center for Computational Chemistry at the University of Georgia. In 2004 he became Professor of Chemistry, Emeritus, at the University of California at Berkeley. His other academic appointments include Professeur d'Echange at the University of Paris (1977), Gastprofessur at the Eidgenossische Technische Hochshule (ETH), Zurich (1994, 1995, 1997, 2000, 2002, 2004, 2006), and David P. Craig Visiting Professor at the Australian National University (1999). He is the author of more than 1100 scientific publications, the majority appearing in the Journal of Chemical Physics or the Journal of the American Chemical Society. A total of 300 scientists from 35 countries gathered in Gyeongju, Korea for a six-day conference in February, 2004 with the title “Theory and Applications of Computational Chemistry: A Celebration of 1000 Papers of Professor Henry F. Schaefer III.”
Critical to Professor Schaefer's scientific success has been a brilliant array of students and coworkers; including 50 undergraduate researchers who have published papers with him, 83 successful Ph.D. students, 41 postdoctoral researchers, and 60 visiting professors who have spent substantial time in the Schaefer group. A number of his students have gone on to positions of distinction in industry (Accelrys, Allstate Insurance, American Cyanamid, AstraZeneca, AT&T, Avaya, Bicerano and Associates, Chemical Abstracts, Computational Geosciences, DeNovaMed, Dow Chemical, Electronic Arts, Endress-Hauser, GAUSSIAN, Goodrich, Henkel, Hughes Aircraft, IBM, Komag, Lehman Brothers, Locus Pharmaceuticals, Mobil Research, Molecular Simulations, Monsanto, OpenEye, OSI Software, Pharmaceutical Research Associates, Polaroid, Proctor & Gamble, Q-CHEM, Reagens Deutschland, Ricoh, Schroedinger, SciCo, Sugen, and WaveSplitter Technologies). Four of his graduated Ph.D.s have successfully started their own companies. Several have gone on to successful careers in government laboratories, including the Australian National University Supercomputer Center, Joint Institute for Laboratory Astrophysics (JILA), Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory, NASA Ames, National Cancer Institute, National Center for Disease Control, National Institutes of Health (Bethesda), Naval Research Laboratory, Oak Ridge National Laboratory, Pacific Northwest National Laboratory, Pittsburgh Supercomputing Center, and Sandia National Laboratories. Charles Blahous went directly from his Ph.D. studies with Dr. Schaefer to the position of American Physical Society Congressional Scientist Fellow, and eventually to positions of significant importance in the U.S. political system (chief of staff for Senator Alan Simpson of Wyoming and later Senator Judd Gregg of New Hampshire; and currently chief strategist for President George W. Bush's initiative to reform social security; see Wall Street Journal article April 22, 2005).
Many of Dr. Schaefer's students have accepted professorships in universities, including the University of Alabama at Birmingham, University of Arizona, Budapest University (Hungary), University of California at Merced, City University of New York, Fatih University (Istanbul, Turkey), Georgia Tech, University of Georgia, University of Giessen (Germany), University of Girona (Spain), University of Grenoble (France), University of Guelph (Ontario), University of Illinois-Chicago, University of Illinois-Urbana, Johns Hopkins University, Indiana University-Purdue University at Indianapolis, University of Kentucky, University of Manchester (England), University of Marburg (Germany), University of Massachusetts, University of Michigan, University of Mississippi, National Tsing Hua University (Taiwan), University of North Dakota, Ohio State University, Osaka University (Japan), University of Paris - Sud (France), Pohang Institute of Science and Technology (Korea), Portland State University, Pennsylvania State University, Rice University, Rikkyo University (Tokyo), Scripps Research Institute, Stanford University, University of Stirling (Scotland), University of Stockholm (Sweden), University of Tasmania (Australia), Technical University of Munich (Germany), Texas A&M University, the University of Texas at Arlington, University of Trondheim (Norway), and Virginia Tech.
Dr. Schaefer has been invited to present plenary lectures at more than 200 national or international scientific conferences. He has delivered endowed or named lectures or lecture series at more than 40 major universities, including the 1998 Kenneth S. Pitzer Memorial Lecture at Berkeley and the 2001 Israel Pollak Distinguished Lectures at the Technion - Israel Institute of Technology, Haifa. He is the recipient of fourteen honorary degrees. He was the longest serving Editor-in-Chief of the London-based journal Molecular Physics (1995-2005). He was also the longest serving President of the World Association of Theoretical and Computational Chemists, from 1996 to 2005. His service to the chemical community includes the chairmanship of the American Chemical Society's Subdivision of Theoretical Chemistry (1982) and Division of Physical Chemistry (1992). At the 228th National Meeting of the American Chemical Society (Philadelphia, August, 2004) the Division of Computers in Chemistry and the Division of Physical Chemistry co-sponsored a four-day symposium in honor of Dr. Schaefer.
Professor Schaefer's major awards include the American Chemical Society Award in Pure Chemistry (1979, "for the development of computational quantum chemistry into a reliable quantitative field of chemistry and for prolific exemplary calculations of broad chemical interest"); the American Chemical Society Leo Hendrik Baekeland Award (1983, "for his contributions to computational quantum chemistry and for outstanding applications of this technique to a wide range of chemical problems"); the Schrödinger Medal (1990); the Centenary Medal of the Royal Society of Chemistry (London, 1992, as "the first theoretical chemist successfully to challenge the accepted conclusions of a distinguished experimental group for a polyatomic molecule, namely methylene"); the American Chemical Society Award in Theoretical Chemistry (2003, "for his development of novel and powerful computational methods of electronic structure theory, and their innovative use to solve a host of important chemical problems"). In 2003 he also received the annual American Chemical Society Ira Remsen Award, named after the first chemistry research professor in North America. The Remsen Award citation reads "For work that resulted in more than one hundred distinct, critical theoretical predictions that were subsequently confirmed by experiment and for work that provided a watershed in the field of quantum chemistry, not by reproducing experiment, but using state-of-the-art theory to make new chemical discoveries and, when necessary, to challenge experiment." The Journal of Physical Chemistry published a special issue in honor of Dr. Schaefer on April 15, 2004. He was elected a Fellow of the American Academy of Arts and Sciences in 2004. He was named the recipient of the prestigious Joseph O. Hirschfelder Prize of the University of Wisconsin for the academic year 2005-2006. He became a Fellow of the Royal Society of Chemistry (London) in 2005.
During the comprehensive period 1981 - 1997 Professor Schaefer was the sixth most highly cited chemist in the world; out of a total of 628,000 chemists whose research was cited. The Science Citation Index reports that by December 31, 2004 his research had been cited more than 35,000 times. His research involves the use of state-of-the-art computational hardware and theoretical methods to solve important problems in molecular quantum mechanics.
Professor Schaefer is also well known as a student of the relationship between science and religion. One or more of the lectures in his popular lecture series on this important topic have been presented at most major universities in North America, including Harvard, Stanford, Berkeley, M.I.T., Yale, Princeton, and the Universities of Alberta and Toronto. Dr. Schaefer has also presented these lectures in many universities abroad, including those in Ankara, Bangalore, Beijing, Berlin, Bern, Bratislava, Brisbane, Budapest, Calcutta, Canberra, Cape Town, Chengdu, Christchurch, Cluj-Napoca, Delhi, Durban, Goa, Hong Kong, Hyderabad, Istanbul, Kanpur, Krakow, Kunming, Lausanne, London, Lucknow, Madras, Mumbai (Bombay), Paris, Prague, Sarajevo, Seoul, Shanghai, Singapore, Sofia, Split, St. Petersburg, Sydney, Szeged, Taipei, Tokyo, Urumqi, Warsaw, Xiamen, Zagreb, and Zurich. His continuously evolving lecture The Big Bang, Stephen Hawking, and God appears in many locations and in several languages on the worldwide web. This lecture has been one of the most popular articles about science on the web in recent years, as discussed in Michael White and John Gribbin's best selling biography of Professor Hawking (pages 314-315 of the 2002 edition). On April 24, 2002 Dr. Schaefer received the Erick Bogseth Nilson Award, given to an outstanding university professor in North America, by the organization Christian Leadership. In May 2005 Dr. Schaefer was elected a Corresponding Associate of the Catholic Academy of Sciences in the USA. A brief spiritual biography (through 1991, written by Dr. David Fisher) of Professor Schaefer may be found on pages 323 - 326 of the book More Than Conquerors, edited by John Woodbridge (Moody Press, Chicago, 1992). At the University of Georgia Professor Schaefer teaches a popular two credit freshman seminar each year entitled Science and Christianity: Conflict or Coherence? Dr. Schaefer's book with the same title had its third printing in March 2004 and reached position #84 the same month on the best-selling list of Amazon.com. The fourth printing (with additions) appeared in March 2006

I also posted some quotes from Blasie Pascal here is a brief bio
Blaise Pascal, (born June 19, 1623, Clermont-Ferrand, France—died August 19, 1662, Paris), French mathematician, physicist, religious philosopher, and master of prose. He laid the foundation for the modern theory of probabilities, formulated what came to be known as Pascal’s law of pressure, and propagated a religious doctrine that taught the experience of God through the heart rather than through reason. The establishment of his principle of intuitionism had an impact on such later philosophers as Jean-Jacques Rousseau and Henri Bergson and also on the Existentialists


My intent was to show how science and faith ( even a half millennia apart) are not contradictory, nor swept away by easy and incorrect statements and platitudes.

2) Even your boy Dr. F points out the tone & tenor of your posts.
It's too bad me and Fruity could never team up
He is just a little judgemental to aid a fellow traveler, and instead bites the hand that feeds

It appears that you have chosen to focus in on “this P.Rob guy” instead dealing with the content of the posts and you have yet to refute them.

I remember when peeple thought you were just a punk.

Listen Little Homie, I do not know if you ever were or still are a “little punk”. From your posts your obvious well read, have, I assume, at least undergrad if not graduate education. If you do not equate your posts to name calling.. so be it - cool.

"If you can't stand the heat get out of the kitchen. Like Campbell says, if you don't participate then you're on the sidelines. And if you participate and don't give as good as you get, you get rolled over. So it's not nearly so simple as we all would like. Hence what we witness, and what we have, in politics and these culture wars and in history at large".

You are right – civility - wtf was I thinking? I do want you to know – as a posted in the original and no defunct “Love Athiest Life” - I applaud the courage, strength and will to accept as evidence that there is No God! I have siblings & friends that live the life – some of the closest people to me – cherish them I do. Just could not do it for myself – I guess I just did not evolve that way. I hope you stay healthy spirit mind and body

“If possible, on your part, live at peace with everyone” Romans 12:18 h.c.s.b.

P.S. Go away – always a possibility – get rolled over ……. he he ya oh my ha ha ha – now you are making me laugh Mr. Corn Spirit – yes sir you done tickled me good. Stay strong little Homie & stay committed to your cause
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Sep 1, 2012 - 08:59pm PT

Monotheistic Deification

It may surprise some to learn that a monotheistic doctrine of deification was taught by many of the church fathers, and is believed by many Christians today, including the entire Eastern Orthodox church. In keeping with monotheism, the Eastern Orthodox does not teach that men will literally become "gods" (which would be polytheism). Rather, as did many of the church fathers [2], they teach that men are "deified" in the sense that the Holy Spirit dwells within Christian believers and transforms them into the image of God in Christ, eventually endowing them in the resurrection with immortality and God's perfect moral character.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Sep 1, 2012 - 09:11pm PT
No Norton, that's not the simple definition of deification that I speak of. With all due respect, my friend, your post muddles the subject where it is important to have clarity.

deification: the making of a deity.

Ptolemy: deified (Son God of Amon-Re)
Cleopatra: deified (Daughter Goddess of Isis)
Jesus: deified (Son God of Jehovah / Yahweh)

I only chose these three because they were all contemporaries 2,000 years ago. Deifying great leaders 2,000 years ago was "all the rage" in Mesopotamia.

More later...

Of course, fundamentalist Christianity et al would like to see the subject complicated, the waters murky, in order to preserve the status quo, their dying institutions. But the definition is so simple, clear and straightforward it shouldn't puzzle anyone.

Where are the Sunday sermons that focus on mythologies of old, superstitions, subjects like deification - all in a simple straight-forward manner. The fact that they don't exist, that they are kept behind closed doors, discussed in secret if at all, speaks volumes.

Reverend Rick Warren should discuss why the divinity of Cleopatra or Ptolemy is illegitimate but not the divinity of Jesus. Do we really wonder why he won't discuss these off-topics?

.....

P.Rob, I see you posted. Welcome back to the debate, man, I missed you!
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Sep 1, 2012 - 09:28pm PT
With all due respect, my friend, your post muddles the subject where it is important to have clarity.

well then I feel vindicated that my muddling prompted further, needed, clarification

and for that, I thank myself, and you for providing it

so shall it be
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Sep 1, 2012 - 09:28pm PT
So Mr E, back to the joke thing, would you ever knowingly ride in a plane with a Budhist pilot? Is it in our best interests to have a pilot who believes in reincarnation?

Give me an atheist pilot every time! In the words of that Rastafarian ( a fundamentalist Christian offshoot, more or less) Bob Marley; "if you knew what life was worth, you would look for yours on earth,". That seems pretty nondenominational to me.

Daphne,
"to boldly go where no one has gone before!"?
O
"to go where no one has gone before, boldly!"?
Or
"boldly to go where no one has gone before!"?

Great seeing you too Lynne, may the force be with you!
P.Rob

Social climber
Pacomia, Ca - Y Que?
Sep 1, 2012 - 09:48pm PT

Missed you also Mr.Spirit - been putting extra time losing my tail as I evolve up from snails - thanx for keeping the fire stoked
klk

Trad climber
cali
Sep 1, 2012 - 10:56pm PT
I'm tired of feeling like I live in a country that automatically condemns anyone who doesn't have "faith" as somehow abnormal.

then yr gonna need to move a lot farther away than groveland

heh
WBraun

climber
Sep 1, 2012 - 11:04pm PT
anyone who doesn't have "faith" as somehow abnormal.

Relax ....

Everyone has faith. Atheist, theist and everyone in between.

If you don't have any faith in anything at all then you don't even exist at all ......
luggi

Trad climber
from the backseat of Jake& Elwood Blues car
Sep 1, 2012 - 11:08pm PT
Hey Syrup don't know why I showed up here but I was curious...I like to learn....concerning your earlier post on deification...please expound on what other species have evidence of that occurrence. It would truly be for my edification. Interesting how you used it. It intrigues me....
MisterE

Social climber
Sep 1, 2012 - 11:30pm PT
Some people are just bulldogs, and there is no cure for that.

Piss off, Dr. F - keep to the things your mind wraps comfortably around, and leave the mystery for the rest of us.

You are the worst kind of righteous disruptors - one who has the skill and free time to create emotional states for your black-or-white world: be it political or religious.

Just look at your on-line persona. You must be a sadist...or a masochist. Probably both.

You are fukking irritating in the worst of ways. This is the only response I will ever give to this horrible emotional troll called "Dr. F"
snowhazed

Trad climber
Oaksterdam, CA
Sep 1, 2012 - 11:32pm PT
Dr. F- what is the difference between 'trust' and 'faith'

Since you 'trust' reality
jstan

climber
Sep 1, 2012 - 11:58pm PT
I understand people in the jungles of New Guinea view cargo planes as deities. They even build models. And believe it or not they know man has walked on the moon. If I were having to struggle every day in a jungle, I surely would wish I could get up above the trees. You can even see some of this tendency in ST's aviation thread. And then there is always the business that without a gun we can't kill at any real distance.

Humans have fundamental urges, like flying, that we simply cannot do. Perhaps we create deities that are able to do what we cannot. Jesus was reportedly resurrected. Walking on water, etc. The transference , of course, requires the deities look just like us. So it is we don't worship drosophila melanogaster.

With the exception of some sci fi horror movies. That has to be the basis for the horror. They can fly and we can't.
jstan

climber
Sep 2, 2012 - 12:13am PT
And there us a horror movie titled "Birds!"
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Sep 2, 2012 - 10:35am PT
MisterE wrote,
Piss off, Dr. F - keep to the things your mind wraps comfortably around, and leave the mystery for the rest of us.

The bulldogs getting your goat, eh? lol

Remind us, are you a Christian?

If so, traditional fundamentalist Christian (bible is literal truth) or modern renascent Christian (bible is allegory, metaphor, myth)?

Where you coming from?

.....

Seems to me, loss of mystery is the price we pay for increased knowledge. Benefits and losses to both sides of the coin. We really can't have it both ways, either as individuals or as communities, can we?

One man's meat is another man's poison. That's what these culture wars are sorting out, I think, what's going to be the meat going forward.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Sep 2, 2012 - 10:45am PT
Sh#t, I'm all over the map, I've got a bone to pick with you, Dr. F.

Why can't you distinguish different species of faith like so many others do and quit falling into the Christian religious trap, actually the Christian's long-standing rhetorical traps like the one involving "faith." When Christians speak of faith, they mean "blind faith" or "baseless faith" relative to evidence or reason. Don't you see that? (But obviously they won't themselves call it "blind faith" for what should be obvious reasons.)

When you call their "blind faith" simply faith, you're letting them frame the conversation. You're expressing yourself out of their rhetoric, their rhetorical framework.

"Faith," like "belief," is too good an English word, too prevalent as well, just to hand over to Christian religion for their sole use.

Call em on their blind faith, or blind trust, not simply their faith. Call em on their blind trust (aka blind faith) that has no basis in reason or basis in evidence or facts.

I trust in my climbing rope. It's earned my trust (aka faith). It's earned by faith (aka trust). It's an earned faith hard-won; for sure, it's no blind faith. If I didn't have faith - indeed, an evidence and reason-based faith - in my climbing rope I wouldn't go climb with it.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Sep 2, 2012 - 10:53am PT
Maybe you just don't get this, too subtle. Perhaps a course in rhetoric or linguistics would help? Or read Frank Luntz's books on the power of words, wording, right framing. Lakoff also has written and lectured extensively on the subject.

As far as citing definitions go, perhaps it would help to remember Christianity and the English language grew up together over many centuries. One of the effects of this is that our beloved English today has a strong Christian religious slant to it. It helps to remember this.

......

Faith in the religious sense means

"In the religious sense." Exactly. So when you use their definition, you're letting "their side" frame the conversation, control the rhetoric, however you prefer to say it.

As a Dem, a passionate one at that, I'm sure you don't let Republicans (the other side) frame the conversation in their terms (and I'm sure you know what this means and Im sure you understand the importance of this). So, correspondingly, why as an atheist let the supernaturalists or theists (in this case, Christians) frame the conversation and thinking in their terms, their rhetoric, which serves otherwise favors their agenda? Just think about it.
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Sep 2, 2012 - 10:53am PT
Well, HFCS you tried, with Dr F. Or threw him a shovel to dig himself in deeper; whichever.
WBraun

climber
Sep 2, 2012 - 11:12am PT
When you present facts to Dr Failed and then he fails. he then backtracks and says it's just my opinion.

That's why he's called Dr Failed ....

Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Sep 2, 2012 - 11:51am PT
Dr. F

Just accept that WBraun is a joke.

Part of the WBraun perspectivism:
Everything substantial is an illusion unless substantial is redefined to be non-thing, in which case non-thing is the only thing substantial and not an illusion.
WBraun is an illusion. And illusions are to be forgotten.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Sep 2, 2012 - 12:36pm PT
Food for thought:

Isn't our cultural evolution already fast enough? Aren't we already buckling under the strains of it in all corners?

So check this out, here's a guy Jason Silva advocating "Radical Openness" as means not only to furthering evolution but as means to accelerating evolution.

[Click to View YouTube Video]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WEWaBlSSUgw&feature=plcp

"What imagination does is it allows us to conceive of delightful future possibilities, pick the most amazing ones, and pull the present forward to meet it."

.....

It occurs to me: imagine a buildup of ideas, ten times over, a hundred, a thousand, a million, a billion times over - because of cultural evolution, "Radical Openness", and such. At some point, this buildup of ideas, or selected memes that work, could become so thick, the world so chockful of them - that the whole affair could maybe be called a "universal consciousness" afterall. A universal consciousness at long last. Maybe.

Fasten your seat belts...
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 2, 2012 - 03:30pm PT
To the High Dr. F...s out there,
It saddens my heart to hear you mock the followers of Christ. Like Peter I want to cut ur ear off. But like Jesus I want to wrap my arms around you and try to give you some words of encouragement. There is one step of " blind faith" you must take. You have to close ur eyes to the "world" and WHOLE heartedly seek Him. Mind,Body and Soul. Faith comes by hearing and hearing the word of God. Jesus is the Word! That's what the Bible says. Since I took my first step toward Jesus, He scooped me up and has been at my side ever since! No, I don't have pics to prove it. If I did would you believe me then? I was a big doubting Thomas. And God has "shown" me; not only the Love and Peace I have in my heart, but also the actions in my day to day life. Along with my sleeping dreams He's shown me things to come. AND THEY DID! Without a doubt I KNOW He's real and alive right next to you! Definetly the most special "proof" (I guess U would call it) I say Gift is speaking in a different language. I'm a high school dropout. I barely know English. But I've prayed in a couple of different languages. Not knowing at all what I was saying. And the Spirit was Tremendous! Overwhelming! Undeniable!
And I know that I know this was of the True Spirit of Jesus the Christ! Amen.
So please when U say we "Christians" ( I try not to affiliate with that term. It's to broad and delluted) have no proof you couldn't be more wrong. It's the ONLY thing I know that's true in this universe! Don't get side tracked by big churches and preachers and politicians. Jesus didn't like them either. He came for us, the liars, the thieves, the adulterers ,the egomaniacs
Just study the 4 gospels mathew mark Luke and John. If U still don't get it John 8 37-47 will tell U why.
God Be With You
P.Rob

Social climber
Pacomia, Ca - Y Que?
Sep 2, 2012 - 04:10pm PT
Mr.Spirit,
Alright little Homey I bit - viewed this & other sermons ( lets be honest that's what they are) of Silvas and so many things jumped out at me i am not sure where to start :

So ideas , thoughts contain in essence a creative energy of change
Word of Faith preachers tell us that words of faith are containers of power that will create
And change the world around you as they are spoken into existence- seems like a variation on a theme . In fact Silva reminds me of a kind of Joel Olsteen for the new atheist movement - good looking slender charismatic guy with good hair & bleached teeth.

Sweets tell me if I am wrong - cuz I know I could as a member in good standing in the Confederacy of Dunces - but folks struggle to describe this position without using the language of the divine , the language of mystics. In essence we replace worship of a creator for the worship of creation

In this new world of openness are opinions considered and esteemed - I mean are we expected to belive that divergent ideas & options will have equal access or will i have to tow the party line? Are all animals equal or are some more equal than others? Do I no longer bend my knees at the altar of a benevolent God rather acquiece to the benevolent leadership of the new elightned priestly class - Harris & Dawkins a veritable Moses & Arron settings Darwin's people free?


Appreciate you Mr. Spirit, may your synapses keep firing

"we are never more like the Creator than when we are creative"
J.R.R. Tolkien

P.S. is Silva advocating the new deification along with the new
Atheism


Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Sep 2, 2012 - 04:13pm PT
Dingus,

I had to consult dictionary.com when you used the word booger.

Booger:
1. Informal. Any person or thing: That shark was a mean-looking booger. Paddle the little booger and send him home.
2. Slang. A piece of dried mucus in or from the nose.
3. Bogeyman.
4. Chiefly South Midland and Southern U.S. any ghost, hobgoblin, or other frightening apparition.

What kind of booger were you thinking of?

Dried mucus in the nose of nothing or something else?

Frågan är fri, så får svaret klinga hur det vil.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 2, 2012 - 05:29pm PT
Yea ur right , Jesus was killed in his earthly body. But his spirit rose to the the be at the right hand of God. And the last thing He told us was He was sending the Holy Spirit to help us. He commanded the Apostiles not to go out into the world until they were baptized with the Holy Spirit. Without the baptism of the HS man is very manipulable by the world and his own mind.
I can control ur emotions just by showing U a couple pics. If I show U a shot of Sharma topping out after free soloing the Nose ud be like Wow, bitchen dude, killer! Ud be stoked. Me to. But then if I showed a follow up pic of him tripping off the top and falling to the base in a bloody splat. Ud be like Oh bummer! I could take U from high to low in a matter of a few seconds. Without saying a word. Satan knows this more than we can imagine and he's using it every minute. With out the HS in ur heart it's almost impossible to discern what God wants for U. The Holy Spirit is proof positive of the nature and spirit of Jesus and His Father the God of Love. Any one can have it. Just pray and ask Jesus to send the comforter,the teacher,the peacemaker,the anointer,the descerner The Holy Ghost. Once the HS touches ya youll change ur mind forever! Sorry I can only try to tell U of my proof (or truth) and U can do nothing and be a naysayer. Or U could just ask and experience it for yourself. The Beutiful thing is its intirerly up to U. Your freedom of choice. Revel in it!
splitter

Trad climber
Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
Sep 2, 2012 - 05:35pm PT
^^^ WORD!
The Call Of K2 Lou

climber
Squamish
Sep 2, 2012 - 05:41pm PT
There is one step of " blind faith" you must take.

You lost me right there.
splitter

Trad climber
Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
Sep 2, 2012 - 06:12pm PT
The Call of K2 -- "You lost me there".
Lou

He does give us each an equal measure of faith.

"to think soberly, according as God has dealt to every man the measure of faith."

it doesn't say a measure of faith, it says the measure of faith!

we have all been given the same amount. the exact same amount that Noah, Moses, Abraham, etc., were given. they went with it, activated it, utilized it. that initial "leap of faith". that is what pleases Him. that is all He requires to initiate a relationship with Him!

so, i would venture to say, that faith has some substance to it. read Hebrews 11 (the faith chapter).

edit: khanom -- tell yer buds ta leave us alone, cuz, we already been "get'n it."! this is just - Tit Fer Tat (btw, dat be a gud woot name, eh?).

Okay, Respect dood! I'm outta here!!

"tic fer tac" killer, right up my alley.

yea, perhaps that verse is applied to peeps that are already believers. the faith required to accomplish certain things...
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 2, 2012 - 06:57pm PT
Splitter; There is a root at Smith that's called tic for tac. 11a/b I think, seemed pretty good just follow the chalk marks. U prolly like it.

As for ur lock on faith, not true...
I'll reply on the other thread


Knorham (sorry if misspelled) I feel for U bro..
Open ur mind and the truth will set U free!
P.Rob

Social climber
Pacomia, Ca - Y Que?
Sep 2, 2012 - 07:10pm PT
Dr.F,
In truth there are a number of extra bibical resources that sight the resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth. Here are a quick two just for you - Josephus & the Babylonian Talmud. Aquiant your self perhaps with Dr. Gary HAbermas ( www.garyhabermas.com) often sited as the foremost expert on the resurrection of Jesus Christ

I have one more question for you Doc - for someone who seems to major in the use of worn out platitudes I am surprised at the lack of acadamic rigor in many of your posts - the dr. Is it earned or just your battle name? BTW HAbermas earned his - give it a look and do honest enquirer instead of the typical knee jerk reaction

Cheers
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 2, 2012 - 08:55pm PT
YAWWN!
WBraun

climber
Sep 2, 2012 - 09:14pm PT
Dr F spends his time talking to the empty chair .......
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Sep 2, 2012 - 09:18pm PT
Or maybe his mistake is trying to talk to empty.....now what is that thing above your shoulders, encapsulated by your skull?
P.Rob

Social climber
Pacomia, Ca - Y Que?
Sep 2, 2012 - 10:19pm PT
Oh well doc gave you the opportunity to state
Something more than "I said it and that ends " defense - was asking for something more than an opinion but proofs and in truth you have none - most Atheist I know (including siblings who Actually earned their advanced degrees in real science) will admit that the most appealing concept of atheism is the liberation of a primary mover & creator - if there is no creator then I am not accountable - it is not science but a choice that
Motivates ~ riddle me this Dr.F why did Dr.Flew the leading atheistic philosopher for over 50 years move from his life's work to deism - because he followed the truth
P.Rob

Social climber
Pacomia, Ca - Y Que?
Sep 2, 2012 - 10:29pm PT
DMT

Really ? Give me a break homey I am working off of an IPhone and doing well or so i thought - correct my expediency .... Okay - deal with my arguement ...
Cheers Toasty One
P.Rob

Social climber
Pacomia, Ca - Y Que?
Sep 2, 2012 - 10:43pm PT
Not giving you sh!t Doc just was expecting something more from someone who carries the title Doctor - if I hurt your feelings my Apologies does not change the fact your stance is weak - Keep believing what you want About my education it wlll not change how I am compensated at the end of the day - if you do not want to engage honestly and openly - cool keep espousing mistruths and by all means disregard the hard work of actually investigating the issue - something tells me that makes it easier for you to sleep at night - all the best to you
P.Rob

Social climber
Pacomia, Ca - Y Que?
Sep 2, 2012 - 11:03pm PT
K,

In truth I have wished many times that there was no God - Lennon is liar it's not easy - I failed as an atheist - and I have the pedigree that on paper I should be good at this - free thought house hold where education ( in particular science) was Esteemed and cultivated - being a Christian in my opinion is for no sissy la la's. I am called to care for you, consider you greater than myself - work to be absent of attachment to things and invest in people without thought or reward - it would be easy in the "natural" to say F.U. to anything and anyone - in the past if I did not get my way I usually would enforce it in another - in Short I was selfish & self serving

I apologize to all if my "ass holeness" came out - as I have posted elsewhere I esteem & admire successful atheists who live the consistent life - I have always enjoyed the fight ( more fight than flight - I blame it on evolution) By no means have I intended any offence to anyone

With that I wish peace to all please know that I truly hope ( and pray) for the best to all
Captain...or Skully

climber
Sep 2, 2012 - 11:07pm PT
Stick your degree, Doc.
I don't necessarily disagree with you, but your elitism reeks.
No community needs that.
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Sep 2, 2012 - 11:20pm PT
not sure where you're picking up this elitism from…. maybe you're interpreting things that way because you think your beliefs are… better? And maybe you find other people's non belief intimidating?
After all, from when you were a child who made you most uncomfortable?
Those who you knew nothing about?

And so, atheists may seem to have a high and mighty attitude because they are a pretty solid bunch on this reality we experience and share…

Its all those people who have the special imaginary friends that we will never get used to….
Captain...or Skully

climber
Sep 2, 2012 - 11:31pm PT
The best place to be misunderstood on Earth is right here.
Nevermind. Not like it matters, anyway.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
WBraun

climber
Sep 2, 2012 - 11:40pm PT
This is atheist thread.

If theist comes in this thread he better be ready for the red hot iron up his ass.

Like going into a hard core biker bar and giving em sh!t.

Get ready for a beatdown unless you can take em down.

Are ya ready ...... :-)
MisterE

Social climber
Sep 2, 2012 - 11:43pm PT
Without a deity to which can confess our sins, attribute our failings and from which we can seek absolution we atheists are completely accountable for our actions. We have no invisible bogey man we can blame if things don't go right, but must face reality as it exists right here and now.

You christians pass the buck at the drop of a hat. You rely on a manufactured morality that leaves you unaccountable for your actions. You have no strength of character but rely on blind faith. Religion the world over has been used as a crutch and an excuse and driven people to act in the most disgusting and depraved ways because people could claim their actions were sanctioned by a god.

Atheists have no such smoke and mirrors. Our actions are exposed to the light of the day for what they are, good or bad. And since we don't have some artificial morality telling us how we should behave, we must judge our actions from a most human perspective.

There is no more pure morality than that of an atheist.

You talk about truth and reality from the standpoint of a cultural construction that has it's roots in superstition and ignorance.

What a joke!

Great observations and very well put, Eric.

The lack of the deity to "have to answer to in the afterlife" makes all the difference. It is why I became Taoist at 20, and why I am happily married to an Atheist now.

Thanks for the reminder.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 2, 2012 - 11:51pm PT
K,
Seriously;" there's no more pure morality than that of an atheist " Really ? LOL!
IMO if U took Earth and started over. Gave it a spin, squirted it with water. Thru in a bunch of seeds. Added some animals and humans. And never spoke the word god. We wouldn't last 500 yrs. (that would make a good movie, wouldn't it?) but in today's world if there were no thought of god or an everlasting life. Humans were no different than animals. LOL
I tkink we would prolly be eatin each other. (I've seen some Chinese and Japanese people that looked pretty tasty!) still laughing .. I think I'd also be down with just going over and taking that oil from them head towels. And cultivatie all that hareoin and maryhuchy from Crackistan. LOL. I'm crackin myself up! Why wouldn't we? We have no one to answer to! No government would ever survive. We'd live in tribes. And maybe roam. And just took what we wanted. Kinda like madmax or the American Indians
Jus Sayin
What if
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 3, 2012 - 12:12am PT
I'm gettin hungry, better go make some popcorn. MMMmm butter!
Leggs

Sport climber
A true CA girl, who landed in the desert...
Sep 3, 2012 - 12:22am PT
Dr F spends his time talking to the empty chair .......


Hilarious.

Carry on...
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Sep 3, 2012 - 02:37am PT
Dingus

You said:
"Some folks are just plain poisonous and Werner ain't one of them."

Question:
 Do you see me as poisonous?
 If so: What am I doing that make you think so?

Be free to answer directly and honestly. No one is gonna be hurt. Don't be afraid.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Sep 3, 2012 - 11:55am PT
Dr. F,

I guess you will have to jump down Jim Donini's throat as well...

I don't have time this morning, but our problems with the word "faith," also "spirit" and "belief" and some others, just show us how religion makes a mess of it.

I do get the fact that there is a habit among everyone - atheists to theists - to abbreviate or to shorten "religious faith" or "blind faith" or "baseless faith" to simply "faith." What I wish is that more of the irreligious naturalists of the world (for lack of a better word) could see that this (bad) habit works in the favor of the theists and then sometimes at least try to communicate more precisely at least amongst themselves or as called for.

At some point atheists will have their own discipline and belief system beyond science (and hopefully needless to say, beyond religious supernaturalisms) that deals with "what matters" and "what works" in addition to "what is" - the latter being the purview of science - and that provides them a positive identity. When this point comes, this discipline, I think, will bring with it its own language (likely to include "belief" and "spirit" and "faith") and habits, practices, standards and such; and this new status quo will, in the end, clean up a lot of the existing mess we currently have in communications and understanding that is being generated because of all the clashing and conflicting modes of thought, habits and belief.

In the meantime, it seems to me, at least the use of "religious faith" or "Christian faith" in lieu of simply "faith" can go along way to improving the conversation and clarity in some posts. My two cents.


P.S. Don't forget, I do share your frustration as well as your interest to bring improvements to these areas. It's part of evolutionary struggle, eh? :)
Gunkie

Trad climber
East Coast US
Sep 3, 2012 - 12:04pm PT
I was wrong. After hearing the cogent arguments from this adroit individual, I can admit that I was clearly wrong to reject the teachings of Jebus.


[Click to View YouTube Video]


these are the kinds of posts that occur, not during a bender, but when it's raining and I really don't want to mingle with the gym rats
mountainlion

Trad climber
California
Sep 3, 2012 - 12:15pm PT
has anyone ever noticed how many of the religeons have similar stories? I believe the major religeons of the world took most of their stories from societies that pre-dated thiers. We are just reading stories of an ancient people who were in the dark about why things are the way they are.

I myself am fascinated by science, physics, geology, biology, chemistry literally all science is amazing.

I don't believe in an invisible man in the sky but I do believe in treating my fellow man as I would like to be treated.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Sep 3, 2012 - 12:20pm PT
Indeed, those are all good points.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Sep 3, 2012 - 12:34pm PT
My brother has full blown Asperbers

It is not for wimps
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 3, 2012 - 12:38pm PT
Hear Hear,
Nice Fructoast, My sentiments exactly on the use of faith, and the ability to communicate.
Ur two cents are worth at least a dollar!
Trying to learn something here, with no deities in the air. What's an atheist point of view of what was before the big bang. And what started time clicking?
Just trying to open my mind. Hear the butterflies?
BB
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 3, 2012 - 12:57pm PT
Dr.
With all those symptoms, maybe it's U that's a little wack? The world is a Beutiful place!
Depending on what U allow thru ur eyes and ears...
Take charge of ur universe! It's the only one you'll get....
Jus Sayin
BB
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Sep 3, 2012 - 01:09pm PT
Trying to learn something here, with no deities in the air. What's an atheist point of view of what was before the big bang. And what started time clicking?

us Atheists don't know what was here before the bang, and more importantly we don't care
as we feel no need to assume and ascribe a spiritual causation

Whatever it was or wasn't is ok with us
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Sep 3, 2012 - 01:42pm PT
Oops

Ok, should have said I, not us, don't really care
nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Sep 3, 2012 - 02:18pm PT
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6w2M50_Xdk
P.Rob

Social climber
Pacomia, Ca - Y Que?
Sep 3, 2012 - 04:14pm PT
Dr.F,

I appreciate your transparency. My view is that we are all Pilgrims on a journey operating within our own inherent design limitations. Since you have stated that you “post for fun and frivolity” and with offense to none:

Jesus never resurrected
that is a proven fact, he died, and was dead, and was never witnessed to be alive after death:


There is no quick answer. First one has to establish the historicity of the New Testament. Answer the usual rebuttal that the N.T. is nothing more than Christian propaganda. This means that the return answer is that all contemporize writings and history of the Romans was also religious propaganda because the roman chroniclers operated with the knowledge that the Caesars are untimely deified and made gods. For brevities sake I leave the following post

http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/garyhabermas.htm



► 90:35► 90:35
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACljoLzPQ14
1.
Debate: Jesus Resurrection - Dr. Gary Habermas vs Antony Flew ...






http://www.reasonablefaith.org/scholarly-articles/historical-jesus


P.S. Antony Flew is was more than "some Scientist" he was the leading voice for atheism for nearly half a century - just saying
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Sep 3, 2012 - 04:49pm PT
Atheism is not a peculiar brand of intellectual heroism.


Perhaps you haven't read Nietzsche...
eeyonkee

Trad climber
Golden, CO
Sep 3, 2012 - 05:00pm PT
Sheesh, two threads? Let me think, do I like it or love it? Hmmm, I guess I'll go with this one since the word is spelled properly.
P.Rob

Social climber
Pacomia, Ca - Y Que?
Sep 3, 2012 - 05:01pm PT
P.Rob, no doubt you have failed to consider the obvious:

Without a deity to which can confess our sins, attribute our failings and from which we can seek absolution we atheists are completely accountable for our actions. We have no invisible bogey man we can blame if things don't go right, but must face reality as it exists right here and now.

You christians pass the buck at the drop of a hat. You rely on a manufactured morality that leaves you unaccountable for your actions. You have no strength of character but rely on blind faith. Religion the world over has been used as a crutch and an excuse and driven people to act in the most disgusting and depraved ways because people could claim their actions were sanctioned by a god.

Khanom,

I do not recognize the Christianity of your description. My world view is the antithesis of your description. I am called to operate as humble and contrite. I have relational stance based upon imputation, expiation and PROPITIATION to God. I am fully accountable for my actions and their consequences. I cannot blame anyone or anything. Furthermore I mandated to respect all, esteem others greater than myself. I am told that our time here is fleeting, so make the most of it and live in the immediate. I am called to love my neighbor, the poor and the widowed. The sick and the down trodden. I am to fight against unrighteousness and injustice. God is more interested in my character than my comfort

Isaiah 58:7-10
New International Version (NIV)
7 Is it not to share your food with the hungry
and to provide the poor wanderer with shelter—
when you see the naked, to clothe them,
and not to turn away from your own flesh and blood?
8 Then your light will break forth like the dawn,
and your healing will quickly appear;
then your righteousness[a] will go before you,
and the glory of the Lord will be your rear guard.
9 Then you will call, and the Lord will answer;
you will cry for help, and he will say: Here am I.
“If you do away with the yoke of oppression,
with the pointing finger and malicious talk,
10 and if you spend yourselves in behalf of the hungry
and satisfy the needs of the oppressed,
then your light will rise in the darkness,
and your night will become like the noonday.
eeyonkee

Trad climber
Golden, CO
Sep 3, 2012 - 05:19pm PT
Oh no. If people are going to start posting inane scripture references on this thread (they're ALL inane), I may have to move to the other thread.
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Sep 3, 2012 - 06:17pm PT
Yes... but Christians aren't the only individals confusing effect for cause, and projecting human ego and subjectivity on to other things,

How close Hitler's statement:

"Historically speaking, the Christian religion is nothing but a Jewish sect.... After the destruction of Judaism, the extinction of Christian slave morals must follow logically... . I shall know the moment when to confront, for the sake of the German people and the world, their Asiatic slave morals with our picture of the free man, the godlike man.... It is not merely a question of Christianity and Judaism. We are fighting against the most ancient curse that humanity has brought upon itself. We are fighting against the perversion of our soundest instincts. Ah, the God of the deserts, that crazed, stupid, vengeful Asiatic despot with his powers to make laws! ... That poison with which both Jews and Christians have spoiled and soiled the free, wonderful instincts of man and lowered them to the level of doglike fright."


resembles Nietche's manuscripts.

Can we suggest that Hitler appropriated Nietzsche's ideas and-reconciled them into his own heroic romanticism of power?

...even haunting the Nietzsche museum in Weimar and posing for photographs of himself staring in rapture at the bust of the great man.
WBraun

climber
Sep 3, 2012 - 07:22pm PT
The atheist argument is monkeys striking typewriters can produce English words.

Pretty normal considering how the atheist "thinks" his father is a Monkey.

And we haven't seen God therefor there's no God.
Duh.

And then the best one yet,

Direct observation and empirical evidence are powerful tools but they gain their power from creative thinking and speculation.

That's just plain Jane guessing masqueraded as "Science"
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 4, 2012 - 02:25am PT
COOL K,
Ive always been the one to ask big questions. U obliviously believe in time. With ur description of the universe( expanding, contracting, accelerating). So time must start then stop. Right?
So, what (who) caused it to start? I know U can't answer, but just think about the idea of the question. And another one I have is "scientific research" has said the Sun is burning out. It's not getting bigger. It's getting smaller. And less than 250k years ago it was so potent nothing could live here! I think some people take to heart some scientific notions and discard others.
So who started plant life, and animal life, and human life? And who the heck invented the eyeball? Genius !
Jus wuderun
BB
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Sep 4, 2012 - 11:31am PT
So blublock, saying your imaginary friend was always there, is a logical counter argument? A step up in debate? Anything different from saying, "I don't know, either?"
crasic

climber
Sep 4, 2012 - 11:34am PT
Any self-consistent axiomatic system is as valid as the next.


So, what (who) caused it to start

It never started, it simply didn't exist along with our concept of the universe. Its meaningless to talk about something that didn't exist to have started. How can you talk about yourself before you were conceived?

Something can come from nothing quite readily, as long as the total energy is zero (which, for our universe, as far as we can tell, it is).

Its a confusing concept, but only because geometry of 4-dimensional manifolds isn't very intuitive (well, it is, but you need to have learned just a little differential geometry and topology).
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Sep 4, 2012 - 11:39am PT
And yet we see evidence of this on the Taco every day... the monkeys are sending.


Studly

Trad climber
WA
Sep 4, 2012 - 11:40am PT
Hey, its cool to be a atheist. Just one thing you might want to think about so that you can respond when the time comes. When you stand in front of your creator, and he asks you why you denied his existence and his incredible vast creation, probably not a good time to be without a answer.
nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Sep 4, 2012 - 11:46am PT
I'd have an answer to your imaginary event.

"I used the brain you gave me and logical reasoning allowed me to arrive at the conclusion that you simply are an illusion and one made up by the weak-minded."
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Sep 4, 2012 - 11:52am PT
"Hey, its cool to be a atheist. Just one thing you might want to think about so that you can respond when the time comes. When you stand in front of your creator, and he asks you why you denied his existence and his incredible vast creation, probably not a good time to be without a answer." (-Studley)

Hey, it's cool to be a theist. (In any of the world's dozen major or minor theologies: Abrahamic to Yanomamo to Zoroastrian.) Just one thing you might want to think about so that you can respond when the time comes. When you stand in front of any educated demographic in the 21st century and they ask you why you are so dense before so many founts of knowledge of modernity, probably not a good time to be without a answer.

Lest you be labeled a scientifically illiterate rube.



P.S.

Unless you're ol' time (over 75 years old, say), then you might get a free pass.
jstan

climber
Sep 4, 2012 - 12:21pm PT
Almost any interaction between humans is a political interaction. In political interactions one is interested foremost in creating results based upon agreement good for all ( hopefully). Not in being right. As Sam Harris points out it makes little political sense needlessly to turn off a thousand people just in order to point out that ten people have got something wrong. The youtube for that address is here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3KG5s_-Khvg

You may want to skip the four minute introduction. I watched the introduction once and it is a little off topic.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Sep 4, 2012 - 12:40pm PT
Cool, that you would link to this particular Sam Harris lecture - as it's one of my favorites. It's in this piece where he tries to challenge the "atheists" to think anew and beyond their current identity.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Sep 5, 2012 - 02:17pm PT
Here's a Sam Harris, atheism-related kickstarter project...

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/618768707/i-wonder

Interesting how this kickstarter went from two backers to almost 200 in just a couple of hours.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Sep 5, 2012 - 02:39pm PT
When you stand in front of your creator, and he asks you why you denied his existence and his incredible vast creation, probably not a good time to be without a answer.
.
you denied ... his incredible vast creation
Assuming your Creator (shouldn't it be capitalized?) does exist, and assuming He/She's compassionate (why CAN'T He be a She, or even an Hermaphrodite?), I'm not worried. I've led my life well by any Christian/Judaic/Muslim/Hindu standard (well, maybe I've eaten too much pork and beef, I'm certainly not Kosher and I don't pray to Allah 3 times a day).
I've honored, respected and taken the best care I could of His creation since I was a child. I don't need to believe in Him/Her/It in order to have the greatest wonder and affection for the Universe (or even all of them) and all it contains.
I'll tell Him I made an honest, reasoned mistake and have never (or at least seldom) blasphemed and He/She/It will let me in.
If not, then I'm not really interested and I'll be happier in Hell...as long as I don't run into George W Bush and Dick Cheney. (oops.....is that blasphemous?)
WBraun

climber
Sep 5, 2012 - 02:56pm PT
"There is zero evidence for a phenomenon and yet a perfectly good cultural explanation for why people think a god exists."

The atheist can't find God because he's always offending him.

Thus God never reveals himself to such rascals.

Thus the atheist remains in the darkest region of consciousness ......
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Sep 5, 2012 - 03:19pm PT
The atheist can't find God because he's always offending him.
Please tell me how I've offended your God.
Is He/She/It such a wimp that He can't tolerate dissent? Is It so jealous and insecure that my disbelief damns me?
Assuming HeSheIt exists, my behavior toward It's creations should be all It gives a damn about (oops....another blasphemy)
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Sep 5, 2012 - 03:32pm PT
Werner, are you saying that god gets snitty because people offend him/her/it/they?
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Sep 5, 2012 - 04:13pm PT
There is no god and WBraun is his prophet.
In my view WBraun himself is one of the offences to this no-god who is revealing himself every day in the material world, though the words of WB are nothing but falling leaves having no influence on this no-god who is older than any universe.
WBraun

climber
Sep 5, 2012 - 04:42pm PT
"You can't see my god because you don't have faith".

I never said said anything like this ever.

You guys are the ones making up tons of sh!t and framing it as what someone is saying and you guys are totally projecting.

There is no "My" and "Your" God.

There is only God almighty himself.

Atheists are not very intelligent.

They only rubber stamp themselves as "I'm a scientist" and then claim themselves as the only ones with real intelligence .......



WBraun

climber
Sep 5, 2012 - 05:27pm PT
I never said anything like this either.

You really are weird.

You keep trying to put your words and thoughts into other people. (projection)

You keep revealing your true self.

That you are very unintelligent.

WBraun

climber
Sep 5, 2012 - 05:44pm PT
Whether one sees God or not is not the issue here.

You guys make so many unintelligent statements to support your conclusions .....
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Sep 5, 2012 - 07:18pm PT
EDIT - Poster deleted his/her thread.

you seem to want to force your non-belief as well

First, one operative word above is "seem." I suppose it might "seem" this way to you. Esp insofar as youre coming from a Christian perspective.

Second, it's modern times in America, so nobody on this site is desiring or intending to "force" their ideas on anyone. (Not that I can tell at least. But who really knows, I mean really. Maybe a supertopian (Ed, maybe, or Nature) at some point met up with Go-B or Klimmer - in perhaps a dark forsaken descent somewhere - and threatened them with a blue cam to convert - really I do doubt it but if so I'd love to hear the tale.)

Third, speaking for myself, I don't have "non-beliefs" - I have beliefs and plenty of them. Last I checked millions of Christians didn't believe in evolution or in an automatic free-running nature independent of any divine supernatural superintendent. Millions of traditional fundamentalist Christians along with Muslims didn't believe they are an integral part of nature. Moreover, millions more didn't believe its possible that everything they are could be a result of mechanistic cellular metabolism at work by the trillions of microscopic parts. Or that all of this magnificent Creation en total could result from something called a big bang. (And I could go on.) So who exactly are the non-believers?" That's the point, here. And who exactly harbor the non-beliefs? Don't you see, it is a matter of perspective and framing.

And I for one, am tired of always working out of the Christian perspective, always having to deal with Christian rhetoric and bias in language and thought; it's time for change, and I feel it coming along nicely.

A believer, I am
 in science and science edu
 in modernity and human civilization and its continuation
 in the good life

P.S.

I had some issues with the rest of your post and its peculiar wording, too, but don't have the time to address them.

Carry on...

High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Sep 5, 2012 - 07:33pm PT
Sigh. Most atheists give other atheists a bad look.... Most atheists I know are so "scientific," they're more annoying than the believers themselves.

michaeld, hope you're not speaking to me. P.S. Either way, I can't agree with your broadbrush statement. Seems pretty shallow.

.....

So cool off and let this thread die

You wish. Atheism (as a clearing agent for bigger and better things to come) and other irreligious, nonreligious or post-religious groups are just getting started. It's the information age now and things are just starting to heat up. Hallelujuh!

.....


One issue the michaeld post does point out is that even among the irreligious - perspectives, attitudes, interests and values vary. All that unites them is an interest - mild in some, passionate in others - to push beyond the supernatural theism. I can imagine, in 100 years, when there are hundreds of millions of irreligious or nonreligious people milling about, no doubt I would find a lot of them disgusting in their interests or values.
Binks

climber
Uranus
Sep 5, 2012 - 07:51pm PT
I like Alan Watt's answer:

If you believe in God I don't.

If you don't, I do.

I don't believe in religion or holy books or priests, ministers or any institutionally appointed guru of any stripe.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Sep 5, 2012 - 08:32pm PT
MissJ
A short SuperTopo history of "life".
Someone started a thread called "I Like My Pathetic Life"
And then another thread appeared "I Like the Climbing Life"
Then "I Like My Pantheistic Life"
"I Like My Agnostic Life"
...life
...cereal life
..Thug Life
..Night...
..Bit'er...
...Tantric...
I Like My Christian Life
and finally this thread.

Do we need a "get a life life" thread?

Considering that evangelical conservatives have been trying to merge religion with politics for the past 30 years, contrary to the prescient 1st Amendment, quite a few people have actually come out of the Agnostic/Atheist closet.
You got a problem with that?

Oh, and some of my good friends are practicing Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindus and Buddhists. So no, I don't have any problem with your beliefs......as long as I can have my own, or lack of.

MisterE

Social climber
Sep 5, 2012 - 09:21pm PT
Werner Braun must be one of the most narrow-minded people that have ever posted to a religious thread, he can't even see past his own righteousness, let alone beliefs.

It must be a very fixated place to not allow any other considerations of beliefs.

High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Sep 5, 2012 - 10:31pm PT
Why don't you Christians head to the Christian thread.
P.Rob

Social climber
Pacomia, Ca - Y Que?
Sep 5, 2012 - 10:34pm PT
because Werner is an admitted believer in god and Christianity

and absolutely no one, no one, has ever called him stupid for his belief

I know at first blush Werner can seem ….. Well harsh. But I have come to believe he is being ironical & honestly subtly self deprecating, with the twist to not take ourselves so seriously.

I can not state on his commitment to “Christianity” and I have never seen such a post as him saying as such …….. Even back in the early 80’s I had always heard he was committed to the study of Vedic writings and the concept of Karmic debt.

The one and only “conversation” I had with Werner is when I asked him where the crux was on a certain climb ………….. The answer – one of the all time best “The Crux is the hardest move for you”
P.Rob

Social climber
Pacomia, Ca - Y Que?
Sep 5, 2012 - 10:38pm PT
Why don't you Christians head to the Christian thread.

Cuz I love you Spirit man - and you know thats true. Besides the Christian page got hijacked by "y'all" pretty quick. And in truth Mr.Spirit you in particular give cause to thought. I do not want to join some bless me club - I like to bang and clang ..... and you are pretty good at it.. most of the time
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Sep 5, 2012 - 10:45pm PT
because some people just delete their posts...
P.Rob

Social climber
Pacomia, Ca - Y Que?
Sep 5, 2012 - 11:13pm PT
Sorry P. Rob, there are always exceptions, but face the facts. In a country, by all measures extremely religious, only 7% of eminent scientists (those elected to the National Academy of Sciences) believe in a personal god.


I have been pondering this Mr.Donini
The “religious” tend not to be a codified or homogeneous, rather an amalgams or mosaic in their chosen bits and pieces. If you take these religious poles and drill down the definitions of “faith” are quite murky and muddled.

I also wonder if those in the National Academy of Sciences are being transparent in their answering of theses questions, seeing how reactionary the thought of “god believers” in their midst.

While some see intelligence as an antidote to being infected by the God Delusion, obviously its efficacy is not 100%:


Richard Feynman, Nobel prize in physics in 1965, was a very unusual person. He said some 9 years before receiving the Nobel prize, "Many scientists do believe in both science and God, the God of revelation, in a perfectly consistent way." So is it possible to be a scientist and a Christian? Yes according to Richard Feynman.
Now one could regard that statement as strictly anecdotal. Americans love statistics. Here's the result of a poll of the professional society Sigma Zi. Three thousand three hundred responded, so this is certainly beyond statistical uncertainty. The headline says, "Scientists are anchored in the U. S. mainstream." It says that half participate in religious activities regularly. Looking at the poll is that 43% of Ph.D. scientists are in church on a typical Sunday. In the American public, 44% are in church on a typical Sunday. So it's clear that whatever it is that causes people to have religious inclinations is unrelated to having an advanced degree in science.

Michael Polanyi
Let go a little deeper with a statement from Michael Polanyi, professor of chemistry and then philosophy at the University of Manchester. His son, John Polanyi, won the Nobel prize in 1986. I think that it's probably true that when John Polanyi's scientific accomplishments, which have been magnificent, have been mostly forgotten, his father's work will continue.
Michael Polanyi was a great physical chemist at the University of Manchester. About halfway through his career, he switched over to philosophy. He was equally distinguished there. His books are not easy to ready. His most influential book is called Personal Knowledge. He was of Jewish physical descent. He was born in Hungary. About the same time he switched from chemistry to philosophy, he joined the Roman Catholic church. He said,
I shall reexamine the suppositions underlying our belief in science and propose to show that they are more extensive than is usually thought. They will appear to coextend with the entire spiritual foundations of man and to go to the very root of his social existence. Hence I will urge our belief in science should be regarded as a token of much wider convictions.

Michael Faraday
My very favorite—and probably the greatest experimental scientist of all—is Michael Faraday. The two hundredth birthday of Michael Faraday's birth was recently celebrated at the Royal Institution (multi–disciplinary research laboratory in London). There was an interesting article published by my friend Sir John Thomas, who said if Michael Faraday had been living in the era of the Nobel prize, he would have been worthy of at least eight Nobel prizes. Faraday discovered benzene and electromagnetic radiation, invented the generator and was the main architect of classical field theory.
Let me contrast the end of his life with the end of Lev Landau's life. Faraday was close to death. A friend and well–wisher came by and said, "Sir Michael, what speculations have you now?" This friend was trying to introduce some levity into the situation. Faraday's career had consisted of making speculations about science and then dash into the laboratory to either prove or disprove them. It was a reasonable thing to say.
Faraday took it very seriously. He replied:
Speculations, man, I have none. I have certainties. I thank God that I don't rest my dying head upon speculations for "I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I've committed unto him against that day."


John Suppe
Member of the U.S. Academy of Sciences and noted professor of geology at Princeton, expert in the are of tectonics, began a long search for God as a Christian faculty member. He began attending services in the Princeton Chapel, reading the Bible and other Christian books. He committed Himself to Christ and had his first real experience of Christian fellowship in Taiwan, where he is on a fellowship. He states:
Some non–scientist Christians, when they meet a Christian, will call on to debate evolution. That is definitely the wrong thing to do. If you know what problems scientists have in their lives—pride, selfish ambition, jealousy—that's exactly the kind of thing Jesus Christ said that He came to resolve by His death on the cross. Science is full of people with very strong egos who get into conflict with each other. The gospel is the same for scientists as it is for anyone. Evolution is basically a red herring; if scientists are looking for meaning in their lives, it won't be found in evolution. I have never met a non–Christian who brought up evolution with me.

Richard Bube
For many years, Bube was the chairman of the department of materials science at Stanford and carried out foundational work on solid state physics concerning semiconductors. He said:
There are proportionately as many atheistic truck drivers as there are atheistic scientists.


The above comes from a Scientists and Their Gods by Professor Henry F. (Fritz) Schaefer is one of the most distinguished physical scientists in the world
MisterE

Social climber
Sep 5, 2012 - 11:33pm PT
I like the idea that Atheists are not non-believers, they just believe in things most of us take for granted, and/or consider mundane from a spiritual perspective.

That is a theism that shows wonderful appreciation of the present - the here and now.
P.Rob

Social climber
Pacomia, Ca - Y Que?
Sep 5, 2012 - 11:39pm PT
khanom

If I can submit my personal experience I have found God to make Himself rather inconvenient in the non believers life – showing up in the most unlikely places and fashion. He is not afraid of our disbelief and I contend he is always showing Himself to rascals……… all one has to do is read the Bible and it is filled with rascals running into God


P.S. Good evening Doc - I hope you are doing well
Heyzeus

climber
Hollywood,Ca
Sep 5, 2012 - 11:45pm PT
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Sep 5, 2012 - 11:47pm PT
I want one!!!
P.Rob

Social climber
Pacomia, Ca - Y Que?
Sep 6, 2012 - 12:21am PT
I can understand your anger, and what I am about to share is as a personal place in my life as I have ever posted on ST. Regardless of what Dr.F has speculated, I actually have more than a passing education - Pastorial Studies, Philosphy of religion plus Critical Incidents Stress Management (CISM) certification. Conservative Seminary , inner city Pastorial Ministry - .... I say all this to let you know that my 24 year old daughter - my youngest child, is involved in a same sex relationship with a very intelligent, wonderful young woman. I have never seen my daughter so happy, so alive and I do believe they will marry some day. She tells me that I am not allowed to be the officiate, as I will walk her down the isle ......
MisterE

Social climber
Sep 6, 2012 - 12:48am PT
Frankly, I never can tell what he really believes. It involves calling people stupid? Stupidism?

It sounds rather 5th grade to me - maybe that is his dig.

"I WILL SHOW YOU ALL HOW YOU RESPOND AT AN ADOLESCENT LEVEL! BWAHAHAHAHA!"

As if, somehow that wasn't an adolescent provocation to begin with.

Not dissing the guy for his achievements, just the level at which he chooses to "draw people out".

It could be Elder wisdom, from what I have read - but it isn't.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 6, 2012 - 12:52am PT
I know Werner,,,
Hung with m, worked with m, climbed with m. I've seen his heart...
I'd say he's a lot like Jesus. He doesn't h8 the sinner for being stupid.
He h8's the sin of being stupid!
Jus Sayin
BB
Andree Hussar

Social climber
ny
Sep 6, 2012 - 01:04am PT
Atheism is a belief and you are your own God... that is your religion.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Sep 6, 2012 - 01:13am PT
I would like to know where the Feynman quote came from... it is not easily found (which is suspicious for him)...

[Click to View YouTube Video]

the implication that Feynman was religious is certainly incorrect...

"...I'm not frightened by not knowing things, by being lost in a mysterious universe without having any purpose, which is the way it really is as far as I can tell, possibly. It doesn't frighten me."


HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Sep 6, 2012 - 01:16am PT
P.Rob
Nice list of Believing scientists. But you can't really include Faraday since he lived 200 years ago.
That's a pretty short list.

I'm reminded of working in the Physics Dept of my university for a summer with a PhD Candidate for high energy physics. He thoroughly denied evolution. He suspended his knowledge of science when it contradicted his religious beliefs rather than reforming his religious beliefs based upon what he knew as fact.
As an engineer, I can promise you that confusing belief with fact can lead to disaster. Global warming denial is a case in point. Not believing what facts are telling you leads to the Global Horizon oil rig disaster.
Please tell me how particle physics and relativity are "true", as proven by 60 years of experimental proof and practical experience, yet evolution is bunk.

It's OK with me if you believe in God. There's a lot to be said for believing in the moral and ethical frameworks of all religions. Even in believing that God created the universe. Just don't go telling me that God created the earth in 6 days and Eve from Adam's rib. Or that Noah got 2 of every species onto his ark. Or that God delivered the Ten Commandments to Abraham. Or that He turned Lot into a pillar of salt.

I'm not accusing anyone in this forum of believing any or all of the above, just pointing out that\ science trumps belief whenever they contradict.
And no, I cannot disprove the existence of God, any more than you can prove His/Her/It's existence. It's only what God IS or ISN'T that can be debated rationally.

Edit: Ed, thanks for following up on what I thought was rather fishy.
P.Rob

Social climber
Pacomia, Ca - Y Que?
Sep 6, 2012 - 01:26am PT
Quote comes from Prof.Henry "Fritz"Schaeffer " scientists & their gods"
Andree Hussar

Social climber
ny
Sep 6, 2012 - 01:29am PT
FYI ...the man F is his own god and he purports twisted views to all of you climbers ... and no one ever challenges him.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Sep 6, 2012 - 01:30am PT
Atheism is a belief and you are your own God... that is your religion.

which is rather silly statement. I believe the implication being that without an absolute ethical framework against which your morals are judged by some supernatural authority, "God", that you sort of make it all up on your own?

that you have no purpose other than that which that "God" has conveyed on you?

that you are exceptional because "God" made you that way?

..not believing in "God" also encompasses not believing in your own self as being "God", too...



Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Sep 6, 2012 - 01:31am PT
P.Rob, I know where the quote comes from, is Schaeffer saying that he heard Feynman say this and is conveying it to us.. even then, it would be attributed to some meeting at some time and some place...

my point is, that it is only a quote from Schaeffer, and not found elsewhere... I doubt it.

On the Schaeffer site, I also read a story regarding Lev Landau which makes it sound like he wanted to be "saved," where that was interpreted in a Christian sense... also highly doubtful that the story has anything at all to do with religion...
Andree Hussar

Social climber
ny
Sep 6, 2012 - 01:32am PT
Reread what you stated and it makes no sense
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Sep 6, 2012 - 01:35am PT
Ms. Hussar, why do you say atheists believe that they are, themselves, "god"?

WBraun

climber
Sep 6, 2012 - 01:54am PT
Ed

Since you don't know what "God" really is you wouldn't really fully understand what she means by that.

It's not a simple black and white understanding ........
Andree Hussar

Social climber
ny
Sep 6, 2012 - 01:55am PT
I am on the east coast and need to sleep!!!!!!!!
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Sep 6, 2012 - 02:03am PT
go to sleep then...

Werner... how could you say this: Since you don't know what "God" really is... I actually think I have a working understanding of it... and even on a non-intellectual level. If you are implying that having rejected the notion of "God" demonstrates that I didn't understand it, well I think you are speculating.

Loomis

climber
Peklo Vole!
Sep 6, 2012 - 02:05am PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Andree Hussar

Social climber
ny
Sep 6, 2012 - 02:13am PT
I was going to sleep until this non sequiter video was posted...
And the God I believe in has revealed himself in the bible and I reccomend reading the book of John as it seems no one has any knowlege of the bible.
WBraun

climber
Sep 6, 2012 - 02:14am PT
Ed -- "I actually think I have a working understanding of it"

Then explain it.
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Sep 6, 2012 - 02:15am PT
why would you assume no one has knowledge of the bible? because they disagree?
Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
Sep 6, 2012 - 02:18am PT
I found my Blind Faith at a drug party in Newport in the early or mid-1970s.


I was deeply religious when I was young. But as I grew older, wiser and better educated I saw that religion was for primitive or simple people.

They need something that helps them make sense of the universe. Unfortunately, religion and the religious mindset is passed on the the children.

It's like Santa Claus. Well, I'm here to tell you that there ain't no Santa Claus, or Tooth Fairy or Easter Bunny.

Eventually you grow up and then you don't need Santa Claus anymore. Same applies to God. Some people just never grow up, I guess.

Andree Hussar

Social climber
ny
Sep 6, 2012 - 02:24am PT

I was deeply religious when I was young. But as I grew older, wiser and better educated I saw that religion was for primitive or simple people.

They need something that helps them make sense of the universe. Me, I revel in being confused and perplexed by the universe.

So you "revel" in being confused and perplexed?!!!!
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Sep 6, 2012 - 02:27am PT
shouldn't you go to bed Ms. Hussar? the thread will still be here when you get back to it
Andree Hussar

Social climber
ny
Sep 6, 2012 - 02:27am PT
FAITH IS NOT BLIND
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Sep 6, 2012 - 02:30am PT
for you Werner... John chapter 3, 6

What is born of flesh is flesh and what is born of spirit is spirit.

Loomis

climber
Peklo Vole!
Sep 6, 2012 - 02:38am PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 6, 2012 - 02:41am PT
Jesus said; unless U become as a child U will NOT see God!
But it takes an adult to understand that!
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Sep 6, 2012 - 02:53am PT
and who was Jesus?

John 20: 30&31:

Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of [his] disciples that are not written in this book.

But these are written that you may [come to] believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that through this belief you may have life in his name.


BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 6, 2012 - 03:09am PT
Now I lay me down to sleep,
I pray the Lord, my soul to keep.
If I should die before I wake,
I pray the Lord my soul He'll take.
Please God allow these atheist to see the Light!
Amen
Good Night!
slayton

Trad climber
Here and There
Sep 6, 2012 - 04:46am PT
Please God allow these atheist to see the Light!

Thanks, but I have my own (non Christian) light to illuminate the universe.
Fluoride

Trad climber
West Los Angeles, CA
Sep 6, 2012 - 04:48am PT
i believe in science and what it has proven to show the Earth and it's transformations, evolution, etc.

That to me cannot be refuted. Scientific evidence cannot be refuted. Fossils, dinosaurs, early man, cave paintings by man dating back 40,000 years, I could go on.

To say the Earth was created in a matter of days by a sky God and humans just happened to appear here in male and female form out of the blue just several thousand years ago is not logical.

That's what's behind my beliefs.
WBraun

climber
Sep 6, 2012 - 11:49am PT
Jebus

I never said you're stupid.

I would say that implying your statement (see your quote below)

[I know, Werner, I'm stupid.]

That is making an unintelligent statement that has nothing to do with me.

Thus you can see for yourself you are are just making up sh!t and directing it in any direction possible outside of yourself.

Contaminating your clear thinking of reason and logic will definitely provide you of undesirable results to which you are seeking.

The scientific method requires one to use a clean uncontaminated petri dish and not a dirty contaminated one to start the process .....
WBraun

climber
Sep 6, 2012 - 12:09pm PT


If someone makes a stupid statement that doesn't mean they are totally stupid.

Yet the hard core knee jerk reactionaries here like to make it look like that.

High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Sep 6, 2012 - 12:16pm PT
For the record,

I've grown to appreciate the posts of both Jebus and WB, I'm sure I'd enjoy a climb with either. How about Bloody Corner on Russell? For starters. Then Western Front. Then a run back to the Portal for burgers. Let me know.

But no talking stupid. During the climbs.

.....

Oh, this bears repeating:

I believe that we as something like advanced atmospheric phenomenon inhabiting the face of this planet probably are incapable of truly clear thought anyhow.

Reminds me of that Haldane remark.
this just in

climber
north fork
Sep 6, 2012 - 12:50pm PT
If we all come from Adam and Eve, then we are all related. Incest is the best.
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Sep 6, 2012 - 01:00pm PT
and who was Jesus?

i've noted this on other threads, but it bears repeating. i'm basing my observations on a catholic upbringing, which employed a version of the bible called the douay-rheims, which they claimed--i think with good cause, based on the recent nonsectarian scholarship of elaine pagels and bart ehrman--to be closer to source texts than the more beautifully poetic but poorly authenticated king james version which most protestant americans grow up with.

i note some interesting aspects of jesus's rhetoric, and i'd be interested what others with some familiarity with bible scholarship may have to say about it. for one, jesus never claims to be god. also, he rarely speaks of god--rather he speaks of "his" father in heaven, adding things like "i and the father are one" and "no one comes to the father except through me".

isn't that interesting? he doesn't say "no one comes to god except through me". he does seem to speak of god occasionally, but usually he speaks of "the father".

jesus seems to have had a certain coyness on this subject, and he seems to have set others in his circle up to make declarations as to his true nature, as if he were either unsure of it himself or too humble, shy, or afraid of saying it himself directly. after all, the implication of divine powers and consequent blasphemy was what got him executed.

there is also an intriguingly recurrent third-person phrase, "the son of man," apparently, although i suspect not necessarily, referring to himself, coming back at a future time in apocalyptic circumstances.

the deification of jesus came later, after christians hashed things out--and they still haven't settled it.

the relativity of scriptural declarations came out in a different way in a discussion i had with a jewish friend about the ten commandments. we catholics were always taught, "thou shalt not kill". seemed pretty black-and-white, and based, i'm sure, on the old douay-rheims. other denominations have slightly different sets of commandments--there has been that much textual controversy over the years. but my friend was somewhat appalled. "it's 'thou shalt not murder', not 'thou shalt not kill'." i guess there's always a good excuse for something as drastic as killing. that commandment doesn't seem to get too far into the criterion for it, however.
WBraun

climber
Sep 6, 2012 - 01:04pm PT
Dr F -- "To say we believe we (or I) are (is) God is ridiculous,"

You misunderstood just like Ed and others did.

God is by definition an Absolute Authority, (just one of his infinite attributes)

When God is rejected due to poor fund of knowledge such as the incomplete conclusions of modern gross material mechanistic science then that entity takes on an air of authority.

Thus her claims are that modern gross material mechanistic science is the new authority masquerading as "like god" due to their frustrations of not finding the absolute source of all.

Modern materialistic science is just using the wrong tools for the job of finding (God) and are rigidly entrenched in those methods (ascending process and reductionism expounded by Largo in another thread.)
rectorsquid

climber
Lake Tahoe
Sep 6, 2012 - 01:19pm PT
Someone here is wrong and they are afraid to accept that it might be them. Our lives are ruled by fear and we can only become more than a dumb animal if we stop letting that fear dictate our beliefs and our actions.

Dave


WBraun

climber
Sep 6, 2012 - 01:33pm PT
Our lives are ruled by fear


Typical knee jerk reaction by someone due to poor fund of knowledge.

This isn't about fear or someone being wrong although to you it seems that way.

Sectarian religion may be fueled by fear but that is a defective method.

Modern material science is not fueled by fear.

Spiritual science is also not fueled by fear.

The western gross materialistic mechanistic science has no real problems except when it tries to apply its material methods to a spiritual science that it has yet to really grasp and fully understand.



Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Sep 6, 2012 - 01:55pm PT
I think I touched on that Werner, but that my post was too incoherent...

but as Feynman explains in that video clip, he is not looking for "absolutes" as there is no indication that such at thing exists, or that it could be something that is studied.

there has been a long history of seeking such absolutes, and in particular, trying to understand the "condition of man" in an existential sense. What we know now (and I know you will disagree but you are wrong) is a great deal more than what we knew 200 years ago, 2000 years ago and 20000 years ago. What we know informs this discussion.

What we do not know also informs the discussion, and defining that, putting it into a form that is useful, has largely been due to science (and its critics, but to be a critic there must be something to criticize). Philosophy and religion has set the stage as to what those questions are, science has been not so slowly explaining them.

For instance, "the origin of the species" is well explained by evolution, it is doubtful that any reasonable person could formulate an cogent argument against evolution. Evolution, from its very first presentation, begs the question of abiogenesis, for which we have various ideas but nothing that is predictive in the way scientific theories must be.

The origin of this current universe is also known, it's details refined as cosmology becomes a modern science, and in so doing starts to reach back to the time before the big bang... which might be difficult to understand but is very much in line with the progress being made in cosmology. These phenomena, life, and the universe, are well described by science and do not require the intervention of any thing else.

As Weinberg had said, in another video linked on a similar but separate thread, ultimately we cannot explain everything by science. I think his implication was that ultimately we cannot explain everything. But interestingly, we keep pushing that "ultimate end" farther and farther along, with science. There has been little new of late coming from either philosophy or from religion... if that is an inaccurate statement I'd like to be corrected.

BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 6, 2012 - 02:20pm PT
I agree let's not argue! Let's talk it out so we can all understand.
The Bible describes the Father,Son and Holy Ghost as one Being. And yet three. Something we quite can't understand. Maybe because we're locked in these body's? But the example of Father-son relationship I can comprehend. And the Love there being. What I've learned from the Bible, God IS Love, and where He sits is so Holy NOTHING but Love can approach Him. I do not believe God interjects with us when we go astray. We are simply walking on our own. Which is dangerous because the ruler of this world at this time is Satan. God of lies. But when we Love and seek our Father in Heaven. He sends His Angels to help us along our way. God did many things on Earth before christs crucifixion. He made a deal with Satan to stand aside for a period of time. God knew that His flock would return to Him, and some would be lost. God gave us the freedom of choice. Through our heart God speaks to us with Love. Through our minds Satan deceives us. The lie of many churches is that Jesus was no one special. But without His blood we would all be condemned by the law.
IMO
BB
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Sep 6, 2012 - 02:30pm PT
Let's talk it out...

No, let's not.

Take your questions to the Christian thread. There you can talk about the blood of Christ and the Holy Trio to your soul's content. This thread's a celebration of the athiest life.

,,,,,

I esp like climbing with atheists... and later breaking bread with atheists... because chances are any conversations we have will concern secular matters (aka this-world matters).
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Sep 6, 2012 - 02:32pm PT
God did many things on Earth before christs crucifixion. He made a deal with Satan to stand aside for a period of time
Speaks for itself
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Sep 6, 2012 - 02:36pm PT
Sh!t, apparently some atheists love the never-ending battle with theists, perhaps they should start a...

I like warring with theists forever and ever.... thread.

There they can realize their raison d'être day after day for the rest of their lives.

.....

But there are millions of others... post-religious... who have moved on.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Sep 6, 2012 - 03:20pm PT
What else is there to talk about??

Tons of stuff.

I would rather talk about evolution, but no one wants to discuss it,


Sure they do.

and there is not much to say about it anyway.

Really? I think the likes of Dawkins and Myers might disagree. Maybe.

Go watch Star Trek Voyager, Distant Origins, available at Netflix. It's got some interesting thought-provoking ideas. Watch it. Bring one of these ideas here and we'll discuss it, lol.

...the debate, and it will go on forever, as long as there are theists.

Could be wrong, but I thought that's what your Politics, God vs Science thread was for.




P.S. Nor does this thread always have to have a presence on page one. It could rest for awhile. (While atheists are out climbing, e.g., or making love.) Right?



More later...
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Sep 6, 2012 - 03:25pm PT
this thread needs pictures

Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Sep 6, 2012 - 03:41pm PT
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Sep 6, 2012 - 03:44pm PT
Saint Harding in Camp4 parking lot, 1968ish?
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 6, 2012 - 04:42pm PT
I guess U would have to not care where U came from to believe In evilution. Come on kids something from nothing, provoke by what? What's the idea? Lightning hit grass and turned into a worm. A
A million years later it decided it needed a brain another million to figure out how to build an eye. Again from nothing? Then another million to grow into a fish. And then, and then and then. What a JOKE!! LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!!!!!!!!
And U find it hard to believe the Bible? With eye witnesses!
SHOW ME SOME PROOF!
Jus Laffin
BB
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Sep 6, 2012 - 05:04pm PT
Here you go, just today: Dawkins on cnn.

http://lightyears.blogs.cnn.com/2012/09/06/dawkins-evolution-is-not-a-controversial-issue/?hpt=hp_c3

Atheists, for lack of a better word (presently), can CHOOSE to leave theists and their theism behind at any time. It's up to them, of course, but the views above and beyond the ol' time "early models" on vast.

.....

But Dr. F, I can appreciate your point about chit chat and having fun, so go for it, it's all good.
P.Rob

Social climber
Pacomia, Ca - Y Que?
Sep 6, 2012 - 11:18pm PT
the implication that Feynman was religious is certainly incorrect...
Dr. Ed,
I do not believe that is Schaeffer’s contention, rather the implication is that it is a false dichotomy to say you cannot be a person of faith and a person of science
P.Rob

Social climber
Pacomia, Ca - Y Que?
Sep 6, 2012 - 11:27pm PT
http://fixed-point.org/index.php/video/35-full-length/164-the-dawkins-lennox-debate

One of a number of debates between Professor Richard Dawkins & Professor John Lennox. For those unfamiliar here is a quick bio from Prof. Lennox web site
John Lennox is Professor of Mathematics in the University of Oxford, Fellow in Mathematics and the Philosophy of Science, and Pastoral Advisor at Green Templeton College, Oxford. He is also an adjunct Lecturer at Wycliffe Hall, Oxford University and at the Oxford Centre for Christian Apologetics and is a Senior Fellow of the Trinity Forum. In addition, he teaches for the Oxford Strategic Leadership Programme at the Executive Education Centre, Said Business School, Oxford University.

http://johnlennox.org/
Reed101

Trad climber
CA
Sep 6, 2012 - 11:32pm PT
Born Atheist will stay that way.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Sep 6, 2012 - 11:33pm PT
I guess U would have to not care where U came from to believe In evilution. Come on kids something from nothing, provoke by what? What's the idea? Lightning hit grass and turned into a worm. A
A million years later it decided it needed a brain another million to figure out how to build an eye. Again from nothing? Then another million to grow into a fish. And then, and then and then. What a JOKE!! LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!!!!!!!!
And U find it hard to believe the Bible? With eye witnesses!
SHOW ME SOME PROOF!
Jus Laffin
BB


is this a troll, some kind of joke post?

written by a retarded grade schooler?

must be, no high school kid who passed basic biology could be even this ignorant
Andree Hussar

Social climber
ny
Sep 7, 2012 - 12:50am PT
John 17
" Father, the time has come.
Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you....that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him.
Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God,
and Jesus Christ , whom you have sent.
I have brought you glory on earth by completing the work you gave me to do.
And now, Father , glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Sep 7, 2012 - 01:02am PT
Many like the atheistic life.
The US is increasingly portrayed as a hotbed of religious fervour. Yet in the homeland of ostentatiously religious politicians such as Michele Bachmann and Rick Perry, agnostics and atheists are actually part of one of the fastest-growing demographics in the US: the godless. Far from being in thrall to its religious leaders, the US is in fact becoming a more secular country, some experts say. "It has never been better to be a free-thinker or an agnostic in America," says Annie Laurie Gaylor, co-president of the FFRF.

The exact number of faithless is unclear. One study by the Pew Research Centre puts them at about 12% of the population, but another by the Institute for the Study of Secularism in Society and Culture at Trinity College in Hartford puts that figure at around 20%.

Most experts agree that the number of secular Americans has probably doubled in the past three decades – growing especially fast among the young. It is thought to be the fastest-growing major "religious" demographic in the country.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/oct/01/atheism-america-religious-right

The actions of most Republican leaders shows that they're closet athetists, too, whatever their rhetoric and public performances.
klk

Trad climber
cali
Sep 7, 2012 - 01:25am PT
apologies to the guardian, but most experts do not agree that america is becoming more atheistic.

religiosity is changing. that's not the same as going away.


becoming more "secular" isn't the same thing as becoming less religiously conservative. in the 1960s, confessional divides mattered more than they do now. fundamentalist protestants and strict catholics kept strictly apart. one's religious devotion or identification was measured by confessional allegiance, denomination, and then frequency of church attendance.

today, that's very different-- one's christian devotion tends to be measured by "secular" criteria, namely one's positions on "secular" issues like abortion, gay marriage, prayer in schools, vouchers, etc. rather than one's position on the theological questions that used to send nations to war. technically speaking, the most conservative christians in america today are more "secular" than were the christian conservatives of the 1920s. as a result, they are much more politically active and open about asserting what they see as 'christian" values in the public sphere.

i can easily believe the total population of atheists is one of the fastest growing subcultures in america. pretty soon there may be seven hundred of them.

seriously, that article is a well-meaning swing and a miss by yet another brit/northern european observer mystified by american religiosity and hoping for the best.
P.Rob

Social climber
Pacomia, Ca - Y Que?
Sep 7, 2012 - 01:26am PT
A thought on morality:

If we say there is evil in the world, than by extension this assumes goodness
If we assume goodness there is also morality
If we have “morality” the implication is we have a moral law giver

If we have no moral law giver than there is no moral law
If there is no moral law than there is no good
If there is no good than by extension there is no evil

So why do I need a moral law giver?
Morality has no value unless there is something transcendent that it gives it value.
Without this attachment there is no greater good, no enlightened self interest – that would be brainwashing.

What is left – and many an honest atheist concedes to the fact – is that morality is an arbitrary false social paradigm enforced upon us, just another way for the Fittest to have their way to control the masses. The truly liberated states a big “F.U” to anything other than his desire and predilections. Up comes the rise of the Ubermensch

“What is good?- All that heightens the feeling of power, the will to power, power itself in man”
Friedrich Nietzche
jfs

Trad climber
Upper Leftish
Sep 7, 2012 - 02:03am PT
HFCS,
Let's talk it out...

HFCS: No, let's not.

Take your questions to the Christian thread. There you can talk about the blood of Christ and the Holy Trio to your soul's content. This thread's a celebration of the athiest life.

Meanwhile...over on that OTHER thread...that "Christian thread"...

HFCS: Also, if you want to believe in a way that's beyond the purview of reason, then of course that's your business. But don't expect others to leave it at that. Others want to participate; they don't want to withdraw, to bail. Culture wars are afoot, much of them have to do with religion and bs beliefs about how the world works

Ok. Carry on.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Sep 7, 2012 - 02:30am PT
jfs, still taking pot shots from far left field just like last year, huh? Another beleaguered Christian, I feel sorry for you guys, wish you could adapt, for your own good. As Dr. F pointed out, it's all chit-chat, just for fun, no rules, no standards; even if you believe in resurrection and ascension, just like your 11th century ancestors, you can post here, it's all legit, so have at it.
jfs

Trad climber
Upper Leftish
Sep 7, 2012 - 02:45am PT
ha! far left field, eh? ok, that's accurate at least some of the time.

i didn't notice that i was beleaguered. i'll keep an eye out from now on. sounds like i should with all these atheists runnin' around the place...y'all just might get outta hand.

i just notice things...parallels and similarities...contradictions...from time to time when i stumble into these threads. sometimes i like to point them out. can't help it really. knee jerk...

you can take me however you like. i've got no say in that. =)

maybe i'll stumble back into this thread in another year and take another pot shot. ya just never know. you might be so lucky.

cheerio. no ill will intended.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Sep 7, 2012 - 10:37am PT
jfs, hey it's all in good fun, all that matters is that we're both kickass climbers, lol. Till next year or whenever, take care and climb hard!

P.S. Hope you're voting for Obama :)
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Sep 7, 2012 - 12:33pm PT
What on earth would compel someone to quote from their book of jewish zombie fairy tales, in a thread discussing atheism, as if A) people even bother to read said fairy tale quotes and B) that fairy tale quotes are some kind of authority?

It's gobsmacking idiocy...addressing a group who value rational, logic based, scientific arguments with Grimm Bros in a yarmulke
splitter

Trad climber
Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
Sep 7, 2012 - 02:52pm PT
^^^ prollie for the same reason atheist post their lame azz vids over on the other thread, eh?
P.Rob

Social climber
Pacomia, Ca - Y Que?
Sep 7, 2012 - 03:01pm PT
Uh, no. Did anyone here say that? I said something like it's a cultural construct, because it is. The rest you are making up (and trying to sound clever) because you have no other way to rebut.

Buncha BS.

1) Did not say nor imply that anyone said that.
2) Among the many components of "the Debate" are the problems of good & evil and the genesis of Morality.

You still haven't dealt with my contention - A – theism has to work real hard to address these issues.

Clever – really? Not my intention – but you still stand on a slippery slope in defense of morality outside of a transcendent Moral law giver. Just admit that when distilled down the ideas of good and evil are arbitrary “cultural constructs”

I subscribe to Cartman-ism: I do what I want!


proves my point
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 7, 2012 - 07:17pm PT
GOSH DANG IT!!!!
IM STANDING AND APPLAUDING U ALL !!!!
CHEERS ! I'm tipping aTecate up over my forehead with U all!
I've been trying to live the "responsable" life lately. Which meens less climbing. And more work. Or looking for work. But tuning into ST lately has been my greatest enjoyment! I've looked foward to reading what U people have written!I have to admit most of the time i feel like an atheist. Most of my time is spent living in the "world" where I feel void of God. I fill my head with numbers, and check lists, and money, and politics, and PTA. It's hard to hear God when that shites so loud. But when I'm reading His word, or talking about Him, or praying, or praising Him,

HE'S RIGHT THERE!!!

So; WE have enjoyed deliberating with U. The ONLY thing that could make it better. Is , if we could do this around a campfire, expecting to go climbing the.next day!
Cheers,
KEEP LOOKING UP!
BB
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Sep 7, 2012 - 07:32pm PT
PRob said:

2) Among the many components of "the Debate" are the problems of good & evil and the genesis of Morality.

You still haven't dealt with my contention - A – theism has to work real hard to address these issues.

As a life long Atheist and active member of the American Society of Atheists, neither myself not any other Atheist I know, and I know many, has any problem at all with "addressing" the issues of good and evil and the morality.

Period.

And you, not being an Atheist, have no clue about how we deal with anything and you certainly don't speak for us, as you seem to be trying to do.

In fact, it is YOU, PRob, and other people like you in this regard, who actually "need" help dealing with good and evil and morality.

You NEED someone, a god, a religion, a "authority figure" to flat out tell you how to think and what to think, about good versus evil and morality

Atheists don't have that "need", we don't need "help" from anyone or any thing.

We are fully confident in making our own private logical and rational decisions.

You, collectively, need the authority figure to know what to believe, and so you buy into the fairy tale of the Big Guy in the Sky.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 7, 2012 - 08:11pm PT
Werner, HAHAHAHAHAHHHAHAHAHAHAHhHHHhHAAAABABA!
U SO FUNNY!
U CRACK ME UP!
BB
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 7, 2012 - 09:51pm PT
God Never Changes!
He's Always Is!
There's Nothing New To Him.....
Especially from outward pressure.
His Name Is IAM
IMO
BB
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 7, 2012 - 09:53pm PT
Yea, I put Him in my mind. And He put Himself in my heart
IMO
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 7, 2012 - 09:58pm PT
Already present from WHERERERERERRERERERE?
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 7, 2012 - 10:13pm PT
John 4:7-10
This is what God Is!
From there ANYTHING is possible !
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 7, 2012 - 10:18pm PT
That's the TRUTH!
Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
Sep 7, 2012 - 10:43pm PT
I AM GOD

(That's the beauty of being an athiest, I can say those things and get away with it. Well.... maybe. Once I told chick that I was A GOD and she replied that I was dyslexic.)

I actually like God's name: G-O-D.

I love hearing chicks say his name over and over.

"Oh, God! Oh, God! Oh, God! OH, GOD! YES!!!!!!!!"
Studly

Trad climber
WA
Sep 7, 2012 - 10:45pm PT
From the birds that sing, In the tallest trees.
To the human life, of you and me.
From the desert sands, to the place we stand.
He is God of all, He is Everything.


From the autumn leaves, that will ride the breeze
To the faith it takes, to pray and sing
From the painted sky, to my plank filled eye
He is God of all, He is everything


I'm giving my life to the only One
who makes the moon reflect the sun
Every starry night, that was His design.
I'm giving my life to the only One
who was and is and yet to come
Let the praises ring, 'cause he is everything


[Click to View YouTube Video]
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Sep 7, 2012 - 10:49pm PT
Message to the true believer:

I want you to kill me.

Since I don't believe in your god (or any god for that matter) and because I actively speak regularly on the anti-virtue of the christian faith… Then I should be killed.

So, if you are a true believer you should kill me. And you should be proud to be doing gods work when you do so.

I'm asking for it. Feel free to follow your lord and savior and end my existence. After all I can be thought of as less than human in your worlds and you have the backing of your lord.




Studly

Trad climber
WA
Sep 7, 2012 - 10:53pm PT
No one wants to kill you Jingy, you kill yourself by what you say.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 7, 2012 - 11:39pm PT
I think U want the "I like the muslim life" thread.
HAHAHAHAHAHHHAHAHAHAHAHHHHHHHAAAABABA
Still Laffin
BB
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 8, 2012 - 12:08am PT
what WHAT?
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Sep 8, 2012 - 01:50am PT
P.Robb What is left – and many an honest atheist concedes to the fact – is that morality is an arbitrary false social paradigm enforced upon us, just another way for the Fittest to have their way to control the masses.

actually, you only believe that God is "something transcendent that it gives it value."

you cannot prove it... as such, your morality is "an arbitrary false social paradigm enforced upon us" by the church...

once again, you only believe...

to Ms. Hussar: the entire narrative of the New Testament directs us to consider the witness of miracles performed by a person, and the miracle of life after death of that person... as a fulfillment of prophesy. That that fulfillment is contested obviously isn't a part of the Bible, let alone the possibility that, over the 100 or so years of writing the books of the New Testament, a period during which parts were selected, the stories reported were far from the original sources.

Given that there is little argument that the New Testament was written by people, many of them, and heavily edited, one certainly has to take a bit of care in accepting it as evidence of anything.

Of course, you are free to believe anything you choose. And though it is a Christian attribute to evangelize, it is hard to understand why you take on that mission on the STForum... where you seem to pop in from time-to-time to opine on these topics related to Christianity, and little of anything else.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 8, 2012 - 02:15am PT
Remember, morals are only active when two or more people are gathered together. I see atheism as a way of secluding oneself from societall inclusion. Thus their morals usually pertain to the me, myself ,and I wisdoms
IMO
BB
Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
Sep 8, 2012 - 05:20am PT
^^^
Another clueless non-athiest

Why do the religious always try to vilify the non-religious?

Is it to make themselves feel better about the fact that they believe in bizarre ancient mythoogy?
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Sep 8, 2012 - 10:50am PT
my general complaint to atheists is their failure to acknowledge their own belief systems.

and what is belief? i think it can be defined as the acceptance of something to be true that you have no way of knowing for sure on your own.

so--atheists "believe" that there is no god. there's a recent book by an atheist, god--the failed idea, which sounded interesting but, i have to say, didn't impress me. atheists generally close their minds. they have tight little systems of their own to market. they ignore huge bodies of important evidence, dismissing it outright because it doesn't "fit". how many times in history has that proven to be the fool's course?

that said, i think ed's comment, directed to others on this thread, should be directed to spider savage, the mother of all these recent pesky belief threads:

And though it is a Christian attribute to evangelize, it is hard to understand why you take on that mission on the STForum...

i challenged spider to put his own cards on the table, but he hasn't done it yet. he sent me a text message shortly after that--a good 2-3 weeks ago--saying that, yes, he would do so, but he wanted to choose his words carefully, as he does in prayer. i think he's had enough time to read through the thesaurus six or seven times.

bottom line, in all belief there is risk. the greatest comfort to such risk is the securing of "fellow travellers" who share your beliefs. every believer on the planet craves this. christianity seems to be laden with an ungraceful compulsiveness. it becomes its own worst enemy in trying to win believers, mostly because it has to try. rarely do christians speak with sincerity, from the heart. if they did, the world would be converted within a decade. atheists, on the other hand, are obviously battling things they've grown to hate. they really have no way of knowing whether there is a god or not, but if they admitted that, they would fall into the agnostic category, which isn't nearly as sexy.
WBraun

climber
Sep 8, 2012 - 12:00pm PT
khanom -- "the vast majority of the world's population do not believe in a "transcendent Moral law giver"

khanom, the man who's been all over the planet makes this assertion.

Or is it really you just Google around and then in your fertile mind start thinking .......
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Sep 8, 2012 - 12:37pm PT
and what is belief? i think it can be defined as the acceptance of something to be true that you have no way of knowing for sure on your own.

interesting statement... as a scientist I'm open to theories regarding physical phenomena being provisional, and dependent on empirical evidence. Further, this evidence is reported with enough detail to allow independent confirmation, that is, someone else can build the same experiment up (or do the same observation) and see the same thing. Reproducibility.

Further, we use these empirical tests to eliminate theories, when those tests are consistent with the theories, we do not say that they "prove" the theories... consistent is what it says.

Therefore our theories are tested to the limits of accuracy and precision of the observations and experiments. This doesn't mean that big things aren't hiding in those error bars, the majority of stuff in the universe, the Dark Energy and Dark Matter, only have subtle interactions, so subtle that they largely hid in our observational error bars from the glimmering of their possibility (in the 1930s to the 1990s).

What does this have to say about morals?

I like to remind people that your morals are a measure of how well you adhere to your ethical system. It is interesting idea since it depends on the idea that we have a choice. In a given situation we get to choose what to do, we have free will.

Most philosophical and religious text will establish the "fact" of our free will immediately... since it is the most important concept regarding the establishment of an ethical system.

But the fact of free will is hardly established, and is certainly questionable in terms of empirical evidence. We've been around this block on various other threads, but here one might address why the "fact" of free will is so universally accepted. Without its absolute existence the idea of morality becomes a somewhat bankrupt notion.

I am open to the idea that our traditional concepts of "free will" may not be correct, especially upon the evidence from empirical studies that indicate our actions precede our awareness of them...

...my belief is that we can actually learn something from the scientific study of behavior which informs our concepts of morality. Modifying the notion of "free will" has a huge implication on this whole area...

...but notice that "god" wasn't mentioned in any of this... because "god" is not relevant to the discussion, in that sense, it is atheistic without a strong statement, that is, we can hope to understand life on Earth, and ourselves, without evoking supernatural causes.

WBraun

climber
Sep 8, 2012 - 12:47pm PT
Every living entity by it's own desires has the free will to choose ......
jstan

climber
Sep 8, 2012 - 12:49pm PT
and what is belief? i think it can be defined as the acceptance of something to be true that you have no way of knowing for sure on your own.

I think not.

By this definition a person believes they will live to 120 years. You have no way of knowing and people do live that long.

Believing is taking as true beyond question a premise for which there is either bad or no supporting data.

While I take issue with your definition I applaud your effort to define the terms we use. This is so seldom attempted and the failure invariably fractures unnecessarily the body politic.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Sep 8, 2012 - 01:13pm PT
Believing is taking as true beyond question a premise for which there is either bad or no supporting data.


John, is believing then also taking as true beyond question a premise for which there IS
supporting data?

why did you eliminate this obviousness from your definition?

just curious
WBraun

climber
Sep 8, 2012 - 01:27pm PT
Morals

The atheist will say "do this and it will be good".

Theist will say do not this because ultimately "God can see that this so called "good" will ultimately in the long run become not good and defective.

Thus the scientific method would be to test the two ......

Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Sep 8, 2012 - 01:30pm PT
you wouldn't propose to test something that wasn't testable...

that was in Feynman's video clip, but perhaps it was subtle, he referred to being able to ask a question, by which he meant how would you formulate a scientific question that was testable... how do you make a hypothesis based on theory.

at this juncture, there is not scientific test of the existence of God, unless you are proposing one...
...on this point I believe everyone agrees.
jstan

climber
Sep 8, 2012 - 01:31pm PT
See how much we gain from talking definition?

"Believing" is taking as true beyond question a premise for which there is either bad or no supporting data.

In the normal course, given data, we often use things as though they were true until such time as they are shown not to be true. Life is a continual process wherein understanding improves.

Belief is an altogether different phenomenon that assumes perfect knowledge. That assumption invariably fails to one degree or another.

(I was trying to be succinct.)
WBraun

climber
Sep 8, 2012 - 01:35pm PT
There is God's message to test it against.

Whether you believe in God or not test it.

Feynman is not God nor Ultimate Authority on what is scientific.


WBraun

climber
Sep 8, 2012 - 02:21pm PT
The scientific method would be to explore all alternatives and test them.

Yes, then you better do them before you make stupid statements about me.

You'd be very surprised about Buddha if you actually did your so called scientific tests ......

WBraun

climber
Sep 8, 2012 - 03:06pm PT
Guessing won't help you since that's all you seem to do here ......
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Sep 8, 2012 - 03:34pm PT
At least I guess that's WBraun's best guess.

I'm not following you WBraun. I'm just showing you the mirror. How do you look?
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 8, 2012 - 07:42pm PT
Not till Ben Franklin has erectis homo human been able to bottle electricity. ONLY 160yrs. ago
Something that can not be seen. Yet EVERYONE believes its there! Even atheists. Because we can prove th theory. Ben believed in elect. before he could prove it or measure it. Took Faith! And he was rewarded. How much Faith do U have that electricity will come out of that outlet and power ur TV? Just because scientist can't prove the theory of the ability of Jesus's sacrificed blood to cover my blemishes before Gods eyes. So that I am able to approach Him and relate with Him. Since theres no proof, U won't take the first step. Thus U won't ever be able to see God. When U close ur materialistic eyes. And open ur heart. God will take the scales off and u'll see with spiritual eyes and He will delve U Great Wisdom!
Until then know the first five books of the NT. It took man ten thousand yrs to write the Bible. What else did they have to do? There was no TV.
Jus Pruvin
BB
P.Rob

Social climber
Pacomia, Ca - Y Que?
Sep 8, 2012 - 07:50pm PT
P.Rob,

If I could understand what your contention is, I'd respond. Are you saying that because we don't believe in a "transcendent Moral law giver" we atheists are necessarily immoral or amoral or both?
Khanom, Ed , Norton

The post below is my post on the original post “Athiest’ (sic) thread. Hopefully this will bring some clarity.


Aug 25, 2012 - 12:48pm PT
My experience with the proclaimed and committed atheists in my life – this includes siblings with advanced degrees operating at a world class level in their respective fields –all real solid individuals. Enlightened self interest is how one of my partners describes it. These are People of veracity and above reproach. That said, anything militant is natural suspect in my mind. After all militant is just a catch phrase for fundamentalist reactionary ready to bludgeon anyone and anything that does not kowtow to their strict doctrine – an expected acquiescence if not we will shout louder and longer until you do prime directive – “resistance is futile….” Reciprocity & respect for the process should be foundational in any discussion in my opinion

Thank you to the proclaimed and committed Atheists on ST – even the shrill & whiney ones and you know who you are - for you help to promote ideas and discussions. Strength and encouragement to you all …………. For myself I do not have enough faith to be an atheist – please know I tried. In the end I give thanks to Darwin and praises to Gould! All power to Dawkins, Hitchens and Harris! In part due to your teachings I believe in God

“Men despise religion. They hate it and are afraid it may be true.”
Blaise Pascal

“Man is but a reed, the most feeble thing in nature, but he is a thinking reed”
Blaise Pascal


Perhaps the following illustration – though crass – might help. Our use of paper money is a social agreement. Behind it, or what gives it value is nothing more than the collective agreement. Previously, our monetary system was based on the gold standard. Behind the paper, behind the collective social agreement, was something Transcendent – precious metal. The real value of money was not the paper but the transcendent worth of the gold backing the social agreement.

You all have brought up some great discussion points, but at this moment I do not have time to respond – my Daughter and her girlfriend are taking me out to dinner for my birthday – burgers, beer and small batch whiskey – maybe we can agree that might be the start of transcendence ;0)

The quote below is for your consideration

“The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil and no good, nothing but blind pitiless indifference.”
― Richard Dawkins
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Sep 8, 2012 - 10:38pm PT
I just watched most of movie IMAX: Hubble

I have to say... with more than an estimated 50 billion galaxies in the limitless universe...


I find it less likely that a god that spoke to complete illiterate nomads 2000 years ago totally man made. And I find it difficult to believe/imagine that other human beings who are semi intelligent could possibly believe that load of shite.


BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 9, 2012 - 01:46am PT
How do U guys box (copy) past texts and move them to ur post? Whith an iPhone. I need help

Anyway;

NO! Science investigates theories! Things that don't exist until they say they do. The biggest mistake they've made is with carbon dating. If I slaughtered my cow yesterday. And put a t-bone in the microwave today. U'd say it's a month old. I'm saying CD has everything to do with heating and cooling. I could put a t-bone in the freezer and take it out in a year and U'd say its fresh.
God is everywhere! He's in me and even in U. To find Him turn around He's right behind U. To know Him read the Bible!
Definition of God Is Love! Can U measure the amount of love for ur parents? Or ur ice cream, or ur favorite route?
I bet if U asked the world at large; millions would tell U God is working Miricules in their mediocre lives everyday.
He is untestable with ur device of measurement.
IMO
BB
klk

Trad climber
cali
Sep 9, 2012 - 01:48am PT
ok.

that's almost as good as weldit.

props
mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Sep 9, 2012 - 01:48am PT
Tony, a gentle nudge. You are defining "faith."

Belief's much different, a la St. Thomas, who believed, so he claimed, only when he could physically inspect the wounds. Belief rather implies proof.

I think Dr. F is telling us lack of proof doesn't necessarily mean non-existent deities (let's be fair you Mid-East-Centrists), it just means it can't be proven they exist. I'm totally cool with that, yet I pray. It's private and that's all I wish anyone needed to say about this painfully drawn-out (yawn) discussion. No disrespect.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 9, 2012 - 02:23am PT
IM AN IDIOT!











But like George Michaels says;






"BUT I GOTTA HAVE FAITH,FAITH,FAITH. BABY!"
IMO
BB
Psilocyborg

climber
Sep 9, 2012 - 02:38am PT
Atheism is no more a belief system than abstinence is a sexual position
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 9, 2012 - 03:01am PT
What's a troll?
I haven't seen that term in the Bible.
Have they been provin by science?
Jus being serious
BB
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Sep 9, 2012 - 10:10am PT
certain scientists seem to come full circle on atheism. fred hoyle was a famous one. another would be simon conway-morris, whom i've mentioned on other threads, who engaged in a rather lively debate with the late, more atheistic, stephen jay gould.

the granddaddy to that debate was pierre teilhard de chardin, whom those of protestant culture seem to prefer to ignore. conway-morris, in an email exchange i had with him, voiced concepts i was familiar with, but when i mentioned teilhard, he seemed to want to withdraw back into a cambridge-comfortable belief system which included the portraying of napoleon as the worst devil in history. i think it was stephen hawking, another cambridger, who made the statement that, once you learn its physical machinations, there isn't much left in the universe for a god to do. but hawking hasn't seriously considered a mulitiverse, nor the prospects of a kardashev scale.

i've come to suspect that teilhard, being a jesuit, may have gained much of his point of view, which he expressed in the paleontology of his day, sub rosa. his good friend, biologist julian huxley, declared that most of it was well over his head, but nowadays even the strictest of scientific cosmologists seem to be detecting the hand of engineering in our physical and biological evolution. panspermia becomes a legitimate speculation. i think hoyle's statement about the triple alpha process pertains as well to certain aspects of astronomy, biology, anthropology, archaeology and human history: the universe is a set-up job.

bringing it back on topic here, note the sherpa saying on the cover of this book:


the universe seems like a big thing. the dimension of time seems mighty lengthy, but unlike other dimensions, we don't seem to be able to travel backward in the opposite direction on it. contemporary physics gives us a new take on both of these items. it could well be a multiverse, not a universe. there could actually be parallel universes, there could be a number of other dimensions (aside to ed: how many dimensions do you, pardon the term, believe in? 3? 4? 5? 10? 11? even more? seems like a pretty important question), all of which could make it a hell of a lot more exciting--and complicated--than pretty pictures coming out of the hubblescope or the esoteric clues in the bible.

ah, wee sleekit mousie. faith, they told us, is what good little altar boys have, and we should never question divine authority. i was lucky to get through all that without some priestly hand on my shoulder beginning to grope lower. too many of those poor devils tried to follow the lead of st. thomas aquinas, who chased women out of his life with a candelabrum, working up an aristotelian system sister mary ignatius could explain, as long as everyone stays above the belt.
Studly

Trad climber
WA
Sep 9, 2012 - 10:56am PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Sep 9, 2012 - 11:03am PT
carbon dating was doing great until somebody thought it might be good idea to run a test on the shroud of turin. i remember time magazine, back when we subscribed to that propaganda organ, doing a big run-up hype on the test. oh, how painful is was for the clerics to part with a smidgen of their sacred relic, and how enlighted and scientific of them to go along with it. within a year afterward, when the shroud was dated to around renaissance europe, time ran all these scientific arguments about how the test could have been contaminated, etc. etc. that was too big of a sacred cow to skewer.

i generally concede the shroud business to aggressive catholics. sure, jesus passed through the shroud. people who get abducted by aliens pass through the walls of their bedrooms and into the bellies of big flying saucers. buy one, why not buy the other?

if you want to put the shroud of turin in perspective, stop by the town center of prato when you're in the vicinity of florence, italy. prato is a nice contrast to overgloried, over-the-top florence. there is a curious bit of architecture in the cathedral on prato's central square, a beautiful outdoor pulpit reminiscent of the seashell in the birth of venus. i asked about it. it seems the cathedral of prato has custody of another holy relic, the genuine, dyed-in-the-wool garter of the blessed virgin mary, come down to us through holy tradition and divine providence these two long millenia. once a year, they trot mary's rags out onto that balcony so's the faithful can look at it. exciting stuff, but not quite the draw it used to be.
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Sep 9, 2012 - 11:37am PT
how painful is was for the clerics to part with a smidgen of their sacred relic, and how enlighted and scientific of them to go along with it. within a year afterward, when the shroud was dated to around renaissance europe, there were all these arguments about how the test could have been contaminated, etc. etc.

 Its almost as if the clergy that provided the shroud to be dated were showing a great deal of faith when they provided the tapestry to science. They just knew that they were right and that that was the sacred cloth that was draped over jesus' body after the public cross hanging

Then of course, when science found that it was not possible for the cloth to have been around during time its was said to have been, well then, that's when they decide to put their faith in their lord and shun science for ever…. to their own demise.



Just like with all faith that walks beside you on the beach, when you look back you find that you have been walking alone the whole time, imagining your friend talking with you, when in reality, you were always alone and didn't really need any of the mind-play.


There is no god, check out what Hubble has come back with for proof

and proven to Not have anything to do with the Real Jesus


 If there ever was one


they trot mary's rags out onto that balcony so's the faithful can look at it. exciting stuff, but not quite the draw it used to be.


 That is some funny shit!! I never knew that… As if mary thought to herself "This belt is more sacred than all the rest, I'll hang on to them forever, handing them down to my son (thought he was killed) who will be sure to keep them sacred eventually for them to be viewed by strangers in Italy, miles away from where I originally lived"… yeah… that sound plausible…

BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 9, 2012 - 12:21pm PT
I haven't been to church in 40 yrs. What I know of the world I learned from conversation. All these scientific theories are a big IF. If this rock has was 10ft below the surface and it has this much carbon its gotta be at least be a million yrs old. Well call it a half a million to be safe. The next rock is 20 ft. deep and twice as much carbon so it has to be twice as old.
And what about the evolution of animals. "if" somehow circumstances allowed "life" to pop out of thin air he'd be standing there goin I need a mate so I can populate. I surely dont want to go extinct. I'll pull my rib out and clone myself. Then I'll have someone to play with. (told U I was an idiot) But where would any thoughts of survival come from? It had NO brain! It would have just layed there and wiggled and died of starvation.
How could anyone have blind faith in any of those madeup "if" scenarios
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Sep 9, 2012 - 12:34pm PT
aside to ed: how many dimensions do you, pardon the term, believe in? 3? 4? 5? 10? 11? even more? seems like a pretty important question

the interesting question is what determines the dimensions of the universe?

if you ask me, I would say the universe has infinite dimensions, which in a weird way connects to a zero dimensional universe... one is at the high temperature limit, the other at the low temperature limit.

as the universe "cools" (mostly by expansion) the dimensionality "reduces," so for the most part, we appear to live in a 3+1 dimensional universe, but there may be places where higher dimensionality exists even in this universe, where energy densities are high enough

the idea of dimension is probably better approached by process, however, for instance, how would you describe the physical process of making a measurement of length, or of time, or anything else? taking a quantum mechanical point of view, measuring distance you "translate" a state from one point to another.. interestingly, the translation operator on that state is the momentum operator. The properties of 3 space are tied up in the properties of the momentum operator...

now you have to generalize the idea of operations on states into dimensions... for time it is the energy operator, etc... these operations form an algebra, and that algebra can be described as a topology

so what are all the operators?

some are not apparent at the "temperature" we find ourselves at... that's why we go to accelerators and bang electrons, positrons, protons, etc, together... those "high energy" interactions uncover the operators on the quantum systems that describe what matter is built out of, and how those bits interact. And in the context of what I wrote above, those operators describe the topology of the universe.

as the "temperature" increases, the probability that a state can evolve into any other state increases, and in some ways, that causes the dimensionality of the universe to go up... the question is what limits the dimensionality? the maximum "temperature" we'd estimate is the Planck mass of the universe, and there may be limits to the "natural" number of operators, certainly the state of the universe is identical to the vacuum state, which sets a minimum temperature (can't be zero).

that's some of the thinking that goes into the question... at least as I have been thinking about it...

Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Sep 9, 2012 - 12:36pm PT
here's a relevant obit. in the NYTimes today:
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/09/education/gabriel-vahanian-85-death-of-god-theologian-dies.html

'In “Wait Without Idols,” Mr. Vahanian identified the origin of the problem facing “Death of God” theologians as he saw it:

“It is easier to understand oneself without God than with God. The dilemma of Christianity is that it taught man how to be responsible for his actions in this world, and for this world itself. Now man has declared God not responsible and not relevant to human self-knowledge. The existence of God, no longer questioned, has become useless to man’s predicament and its resolution.”

“This, then, is the irony of the cultural tradition of Christianity: it has bequeathed us the idea of the death of God.”'
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 9, 2012 - 02:15pm PT
Thanks
So what's ur excuse?
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Sep 9, 2012 - 02:41pm PT
BLUBLOCR said:

And what about the evolution of animals. "if" somehow circumstances allowed "life" to pop out of thin air he'd be standing there goin I need a mate so I can populate. I surely dont want to go extinct. I'll pull my rib out and clone myself. Then I'll have someone to play with. (told U I was an idiot) But where would any thoughts of survival come from? It had NO brain! It would have just layed there and wiggled and died of starvation.
How could anyone have blind faith in any of those madeup "if" scenarios

Blu, when you said pretty much that same thing yesterday, I just took you for a troll.

You know, the kind of troll that says something SO obviously uninformed and shockingly factually ignorant that is posted purely to poke fun at the trolls own stupidity.

BUT, that makes twice now you have posted such language. it is now clear to everyone that you are not a troll, but one of a certain block of the population that is truly clueless

Your above words are similar to someone saying over and over that 2 plus 2 is 5.

You completely deny "science" and the rigorous proofs of "evolution"

You must have failed basic high school biology.

Your lack of even the most elementary science education is shocking, for an adult.
Studly

Trad climber
WA
Sep 9, 2012 - 03:02pm PT
Do you feel better about yourself now Norton?
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 9, 2012 - 03:18pm PT
"As the universe cools by expansion the demensionality reduces"
Yea, kinda like cement ! It's a negatively charged, xtra dry mass that when water is added. There is an explosion of action to get back to some sorta equalibreum. Thus heating -expanding. Until charges equal out and cool. Where the dimension is found smaller.

"I swear that slab I just pored was 3/8" bigger when I started!"

This coincides my theory of the world was once a much smaller globe. (that's why all the continents look as though they would fit together). Then God called on Noah to build an Ark. Then God directed certain pairs of the living creatures aboard. And God did comence it to rain
40 days. And He added water to the earth. And it heated and expanded. Now it's gettin smaller.
IMO
BB
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Sep 9, 2012 - 03:21pm PT
Then God called on Noah to build an Ark. Then God directed certain pairs of the living creatures aboard. And God did comence it to rain
40 days

yeah Studly

especially after reading this

Blu is free to post his opinions, and so are you and I
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Sep 9, 2012 - 03:35pm PT
i appreciate that response, ed. gonna take awhile to wrap my brains around it.

the interesting thing about the god/no god debate is that everyone, on either side, seems to have a pretty sure idea about what god might be. isn't that kinda hard for christians, who in their next breath tell us god is way beyond the possibilities of human comprehension? and what about atheists, who seem to know all about something that doesn't exist? i'll bet that if both sides could set aside the existence question in a short truce, they might at least discover some surprising agreement as to what god isn't.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 9, 2012 - 03:36pm PT
Ur Right!
"U must have failed basic HS biology ..."

That was my last period of the day, and I left at lunch to go get stoned and shred som pools!
I think ur education on evilution is your "belief" and U put way to much faith in it...
I don't see any proof!




And at least my mind is still open enough to keep on learning.
IMO
BB
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Sep 9, 2012 - 03:39pm PT
And still there is a difference between shaving and cutting your head straight off...
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Sep 9, 2012 - 03:46pm PT
I think ur education on evilution is your "belief" and U put way to much faith in it...
I don't see any proof!

yeah, ok

start by retaking grade school basic spelling

and then maybe a high school "critical thinking skills" class

you just don't see any "proof" of "evilution"?

start by reaching behind you and feeling the remains of your prehensile tail, you know that short little bone in the middle of your butt that serves no purpose "any more"
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 9, 2012 - 03:58pm PT
TB,
It's easy for Christians to say who God is:
The Lord is my shepard;
I shall not want.
He makeith me to lie down in green pastures;
He leads me beside the still waters.
He restores my soul;
He leads me in the paths of righteousness
For His names sake.
Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death,
I will fear no evil;
For You ARE with me;
Your rod and Your staff, they comefort me.
You prepare a table before me
in the presence of my enemies;
You anoint my head with oil;
My cup runs over.
Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me
All the days of my life;
And I will dwell in the house of the Lord
Forever.
Amen.
BB
splitter

Trad climber
Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
Sep 9, 2012 - 05:29pm PT
Norton -- ...that serves no purpose anymore.

Not so, the coccyx does have several functions.

I do have a science/med background and recall from my neuroanatomy & cadaver dissecting days of being fascinated by the long strands which extend from the coccyx. I must say that they resembles a horses tail hairs, but they are not hair (at close inspection) but rather strands of fibrous tissues (filum terminate) which gives longitudinal support to the spinal cord. Plus (in a nutshell) there are nerves, tendons & muscles attached to it (coccyx) eg. glut muscles, sphincter muscles, etc.!

Many biologist used to consider the coccyx a vestigial organ, but current opinions in biology have changed and it is now generally accepted that there are no true vestigial organs.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 9, 2012 - 05:34pm PT
K, don't be sad. My brain is open now! I find some of the things u'all say are hard to except. (if it goes against the bible)because I am so confident in the relationship with my creator, I fully trust His Word. I have read Darwin's origin book, YAWWN ! But I do want to know what U believe about it. So it will help me more understand U.
That's Great! U were handed the Bible when U were a kid. I'm sure U have more education
On it than a lot of others. U could be the smartest person in the world but it wouldn't get U everlasting life. God said U must go to Him with a contrite heart in order for U to see the Kingdom of Heaven.
IMO
BB
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Sep 9, 2012 - 05:35pm PT
good point!

No doubt Blu will consider this correction to be proof that there is no proof of human evolution

case closed
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 9, 2012 - 06:30pm PT
I put my face in the dirt when I approach the Lord.
And He lifts me up, and dusts me off!
Would u do that for me?

Questioning and hoping yes! I question everything,
And I'm hoping for your salvation!

Guessing? I don't believe in guessing or luck!

Jus Sayin
BB
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Sep 9, 2012 - 09:19pm PT
everyone, on either side, seems to have a pretty sure idea about what god might be.

at this point, I am sure that I have no idea what god might be... I just don't see the need to invoke god in the universe, at least to explain the universe... the universe seems quite explainable by just "natural" means...

nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Sep 9, 2012 - 09:47pm PT
Nature on it's own is far more beautiful

awe shucks... I just blushed.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 9, 2012 - 10:15pm PT
Sorry Ed, I only read your first couple paragraphs this morning. Back to it now.
I also condone the possibility of infinite demensions I think this would allow god to see into the past, present and future...like He says He does!

Can U see a possibllity with some sort of "high energy" interaction with earth could could essentially accelerate our preceivable time line? Like if we got bombarded with an excessive amount of the Suns radiation. Wouldn't that in a manure of speeking toast us? Couldn't that make rocks and fossils act older than they actually are?
Thanks for your eloquent input!
BB
jstan

climber
Sep 9, 2012 - 10:25pm PT
Not so, the coccyx does have several functions.

I do have a science/med background and recall from my neuroanatomy & cadaver dissecting days of being fascinated by the long strands which extend from the coccyx. I must say that they resembles a horses tail hairs, but they are not hair (at close inspection) but rather strands of fibrous tissues (filum terminate) which gives longitudinal support to the spinal cord. Plus (in a nutshell) there are nerves, tendons & muscles attached to it (coccyx) eg. glut muscles, sphincter muscles, etc.!

Many biologist used to consider the coccyx a vestigial organ, but current opinions in biology have changed and it is now generally accepted that there are no true vestigial organs.

Just imagine. A website where interesting stuff like this crops up. Would you believe.......
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Sep 9, 2012 - 10:32pm PT
I still like the atheist life.

No reason to beg for forgiveness no reason to feel guilt for existing as a human instead of a god.

Batshit has a better story


bwahahha


BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 9, 2012 - 10:49pm PT
K. U are truly blessed to be able to look around and see and appreciate gods handywork!
I look forward to it everyday! But I also see kids in my daughters first grade class that only get one meal a day. And some with only one parent and they're so withdrawn they won't even look at u. And some are so crazed they go insane. U can't hardly control them. Let alone teach them. This is all happening at our local public Josshua Tree Elemntary school. I've started volunteering as teachers aid to try and help her out. She needs it! But sincerely, if it weren't for Gods direction. I wouldn't be there caring, and I wouldn't be there helping out.
I'd prolly be at the crag thinking of myself.
Jus fixin
BB
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Sep 10, 2012 - 12:12am PT
What's not to like....your Sundays are guilt free!
WBraun

climber
Sep 10, 2012 - 12:14am PT
What!!!!

You guys didn't go climbing today so ya all feel guilty ......
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Sep 10, 2012 - 02:16am PT
Some people have looked into the matter of good and not good actions and found that christians and secular people do them in equal measure. So doing good is not a matter of christianity, though it is in BBs illusions. It may be right in his/her own case.

Researchers have also found that atheists generally know the bible better than most american christians.

God-speaking and good-speaking is a different matter - there is a lot of imagebuilding within the christian community - God- and good-braggers.

Though there are also people who are really humble, and not bragging about it.
slayton

Trad climber
Here and There
Sep 10, 2012 - 03:56am PT
Seriously. Do not respond to BLUEBLOCR. Unless you want to spin your wheels, spin your wheels, spin your wheels.

I enjoy contradictory points of view but that sh#t is stupid light.
Spider Savage

Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
Sep 10, 2012 - 10:36am PT
Welcome back Pate!

I thought of you last week when I was traveling through "Pate Valley" in the Grand Canyon of the Tuolumne.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Sep 10, 2012 - 10:46am PT
I think the atheist afterlife will be even more fun.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 10, 2012 - 11:29am PT
" Atheist after life, fun?"
Yea! Prolly a lot of nude solo caving!
Jus Josh'in
BB
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Sep 10, 2012 - 12:14pm PT
Nice to see ever more climber people going rogue - kicking the bronze-age superstitions of Abrahamic religion to the curb and taking up the cause of the "a-theist" life.

Here's another fine piece by Sam Harris regarding "free will."

http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/life-without-free-will

This piece hints to the further challenges in intellect, attitude and culture that lie ahead. You can't help but wonder what fraction of humanity will be up for it though. (esp after reading some of the posts on this thread, lol)

Isn't it a wonderful thing our wills are free? that is, free of demons... free of demonic possession... free of the devil. Archiac superstitions, yes, that umpteen millions of our early to ancient ancestors took to be real; and, it is worth noting - souls (or wills) possessed or free? was the original historical concern of so-called "free will" discussions by the Church and learned men (mostly philosophers and theologians).

My will: Free of demons, yes. My will: Free of causality, no. Conversations concerning "free will" are meaningless without distinguishing being free relative to what - in this case, causality or demons.

I hope future generations will get around to getting clear on this better than our generations have. Still we've come along way. Well, some of us. :)

.....

Pate, nice to see you posting up again. But, alas, this place remains as dumb as ever - at least concerning the more cerebral topics.

Aye, it's the world we live in.
WBraun

climber
Sep 10, 2012 - 12:22pm PT
But, alas, this place remains as dumb as ever

I been saying that for years.

Except I used the word stupid since it has so much more emphasis.

That word really gets under some peoples skin here and they start having these epileptic knee jerk reactions ,,, hahaha

Ho man .....
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Sep 10, 2012 - 12:29pm PT
(Yeah, . . . what he said.)
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Sep 10, 2012 - 12:49pm PT
okay, bluebloc, here we go.

atheistic kurt vonnegut once expressed great admiration for the king james version of psalm 23. he felt the nameless translator in the group of scholars hired by james ii of england gave us poetry on a par with shakespeare.

i would differ with vonnegut there. i think it's poetry on a par with longfellow, whose lovely language has not stood up well against the literary criticism of the past century. pretty words, second-rate ideas. if you think the ST gang is rough, try joining the real dead poet's society.

i have a two-part quarrel with your psalm 23:

1. i am not a sheep. i think being a human is kind of a terrific thing, and humans who resemble sheep (haha, getting back on topic here) are not, shall we say, living up to their potential.

being a sheep isn't a bad thing, for a sheep, but the best life for a sheep is not being shepherded around by some lordly human. (you know where that ends up, right?) rather, it's to be out there on its own in nature, foraging, f*#king, having lambs, palling around with fellow sheep in the herd, enjoying the view under the open sky, butting those who need to be butted (don't you dare, locker), and eluding wolves by rockclimbing (back on the topic again).

i don't know how the noisy christians on ST have lived their lives, but there was no god giving any of this promised help and shepherding in mine. i learned the hard way to figure life out for myself and stand on my own feet. when i've gotten tangled up in the underbrush of life, i've had to learn to extricate myself all by myself. when i've found myself pursued by wolves, i learned to run like hell and get up on the rocks. all the padres who sang that little "oh god has been doing this for you" song didn't have a clue.

here's the deal with god: you're on your own, just like every other living creature on the planet. learn to fly and chirp on your own. eventually you will realize that death is not something to be afraid of.

2. gloating over privileges given in preference over imagined "enemies" is not becoming of a spiritual person. throughout the theology of the west--christians, jews, muslims--there is a strong strain of divine privilege over the damnable remainder of humanity--the nonbelievers, the heretics, the goyim, the infidels. this unthinking monotheism pays a price for such inherent egotism in a stunted spirituality which rarely gets beyond its herd/sheep mentality. the "personal relationship" with an imagined, powerful deus ex machina is closely ushered by an overweening clergy and orchestrated to squalls of bathetic, sycophantic flattery (trying to choose my words carefully here, spider).

whatever the ultimate truth of existence, i think we are here to do our best and to get along with others. religious systems which don't foster that aren't worth squat, as vonnegut would say. stop and think for half a minute. god don't need your stinkin' flattery. from carl sagan, another atheist who had started to come around: "to the buddhist, god is so great he doesn't even have to exist."
___

i find ed's remarks (no, not that skeleton key to the maze of multidimension) signal to most discussions of atheism. like with myself, i don't think ed quite calls himself an atheist, but he brings up a subject which usually comes in an atheist's next breath: morality. without the sanctions of religious belief, why don't we just live life as a pleasant free-for-all?

the answer to that comes in another key word from ed: nature. i find it unlocked in a little exchange in one of the old jacques cousteau television programs. after a long dive in a fascinating coral reef, immersed in its myriad of vibrant, competitive, balanced life, cousteau asks falco for his impressions. "oh captain, it's so moral."

but i'd take the word "nature" a little further. as i've argued with ed frequently here, i think that there are more things, perhaps i have to say in the multiverse--rather than heaven and earth or the universe, than are dreamed of in his philosophy. it's interesting that we may have common ground with our scientifically challenged bluebloc here. science which ignores the patently confirmable paranormal cannot be true science, no matter its sophistication and successes. the definition becomes not nature, on its own terms, but "normal" nature. the history of science has shown many times that that's the hard way to learn. scientists who have not ignored this realm--hynek, vallee, moss, mack--start singing strange tunes. some, like puthoff, become strangely silent. and ed occasionally finds himself among strange conference-fellows.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Sep 10, 2012 - 12:56pm PT
Some of you atheists and a-theists might recall this exchange...

(after getting canned for her "atheism")


David Drumlin: I know you must think this is all very unfair. Maybe that's an understatement. What you don't know is I agree. I wish the world was a place where fair was the bottom line, where the kind of idealism you showed at the hearing was rewarded, not taken advantage of. Unfortunately, we don't live in that world.

Ellie Arroway: Funny, I've always believed that the world is what we make of it.

.....

It's a constant battle.

Keep the charge. Keep pushin it.
mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Sep 10, 2012 - 01:30pm PT
This is rather gauche of me to step into this discussion at this stage, not having read the intervening posts, but cosi fan tutti, eh?

Tony, that makes two of us, and I was around Jesuits. It was rumored in the sacristy as we donned our cassocks and surplices that our prish old fart Jesuit, Father , only molested boys who passed the indoctrination profile exam.

He would take aside a boy after mass, telling him he had to take this test if he wanted to remain an acolyte. He placed on the table a bible, a wallet and a bottle of scotch. Now, for the Jesuits, the object of the test was to determine a candidates suitability for the priesthood and their order in particular. If the bible were to be chosen, he's likely to be a good candidate for orders. If the wallet were to be chosen, this would indicate a more worldly vocation, like banking. If the bottle of scotch were to be choen, the man was more likely to be a bum than a credit to the human race.

If the boy were to choose all three, they offered him a try-out.


I read in Daniel Duane's novel wherein God consciousness is explicated to the protagonist by a shoe resoler in Camp 4. Looking for Mo. Good read, good food for thought. As I regurgitated the idea in my mind, put some things down on paper, and came to the possibility that God exists solely in my mind and that you all are concepts I create as I roll along. God I am, is what it came down to for me, and I scared the sh#t out of myself. It's not a comfortable thought, anyway.

Any comebacks? Ed, you constantly amaze me with not just what you've read, how much you must have thought about what you have read, and how clearly you explain these complicated ideas to the crew. It is partly this that precludes me believing or having faith in a system which I alone have created, am creating, and will keep on creating in a universe that is infinite and therefore indescribable in totality. It is this which is scary, that I could imagine an end to it! KF*#K!!!

That last is in exasperation at this writing system where I can't go back and edit because the backspace key and the arrows fail and I can't edit. I wan't commenting on what I wrote, but what the system won't allow me to do. If I were my own creator, and yours and yours and yours and this whole shebang of a universe, why would I bother to supply myself with a crappy sriting system? Or have plagues or nagging spouses or any other of life's littel problems?

Guy Noir, help me!
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 10, 2012 - 02:26pm PT
TB
NICE! TAKE A BOW!
I gotta read it again
BB
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Sep 10, 2012 - 02:31pm PT
Mouse, why you gotta bring Lorenzo da Ponte into this? He was good God-fearing man.
mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Sep 10, 2012 - 02:33pm PT
Catching up, the carbon dating "dilemma"--Should we allow the Shroud to be examined? Or not? It's very easy to see why the Cards were disgruntled over the results. It helps disestablish the church because it undermines faith in the ressurection, which everyone knows is a conspiracy concocted by the brethren and sistern.

My first GF, Liz #1, worked all her life for an archemological firm in the Sacto area, and specialized in C-dates. I'd like to try to sound her out about her professional opinion. God willing, she may even speak to me!

Or should I not say that way here?
mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Sep 10, 2012 - 02:49pm PT
Because "everybody does it"!!!

That's my understanding of how the phrase can be translated. Simple Opera Buffoonery, aka a "SOB story," can be potent satiric stuff, no? God-fearing or not.

"Just because you think all your friends gotta think that way does not mean you gotta exist like that. I'm gonna tell your father when you decide who He is. He had the first word, I'm sure He'll have the last one, too."

"You thinking what I'm thinking again, Ma?"

"You're going to buy me that new belt I love?"

Conversation with Mother Mary in a waking dream
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Sep 10, 2012 - 02:58pm PT
in atheist afterlife you get to be a proton

actually, all your protons are recycled...
they will be to the end, and even then, they serve an important role in that end.
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Sep 10, 2012 - 04:19pm PT
haha, mouse--same territory for me, but different cast of characters. in retrospect, rather fortunately, my mentor during puberty was quite heterosexual--to the point where he "confessed" that he engaged in the chaste dating of nuns. he'd also mix me an old fashioned as i came of legal age, and i've retained a taste for them. cool guy, but i'm afraid the merry holy avalanche came crashing down on him in a different way.

the jesuits came later, in the form of three years at loyola university of chicago, where i received excellent education from lay professors, but found the priests to be rather out of it. the jesuit order has a dark side. your story seems spot on. you know about the black pope, right?

all your protons are recycled...
they will be to the end, and even then, they serve an important role

ed, you're taking sides there. in nature, nothing is important--it merely is what it is. and what is this "end" you speak of? a scientific apocalypse?
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Sep 10, 2012 - 08:36pm PT
For insight, we need more polling among and limited to atheists, evolutionists, naturalists, scientists, otherwise smart educated secular people. (Enough political polling, its quantity is downright ridiculous. Sorry Muslims and Christians, you don't count on this one.)

For instance, there is the claim inspired by the sciences: We are "matter grown to consciousness." I wonder what fraction of the aforementioned believe in this claim.

Of course I do, but I wonder just how small my minority is and how it's trending per year or decade esp now with the whole world linked in and online.

.....

Until we figure out the exact mechanism or mechanisms leading to consciousness (or sentience or intention or will) I am not at all prepared to say that the yellow jacket wasp I just dispatched in the kitchen window (and that inspired this post) didn't have it. In fact, if forced to place a bet, I'd bet this lowly stinging sensation did have consciousness (sentience, intention, the works).

Until science (or perhaps just as well, analytical bioengineering) of the future figures it out, I am more than happy thinking of consciousness as biomagic. How's that for atheist open-mindedness, lol!

Remember Arthur C. Clarke,
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

I think Clarke's insight here applies equally well to "any sufficiently advanced" biological function as well. Hence, bio-magic, with a bit of a wink.

.....

I thank the Gods of human imagination / personification (this week, esp the ancient Greek River Gods, Potamoi) everyday for my modern atheist outlook and lifestyle. :)


Tags: 1 "matter grown to consciousness" 2 "matter grown to sentience" 3 bio-magic (biomagic)
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Sep 10, 2012 - 09:00pm PT
Norton, why am I not surprised. Verily, you're one of the smart ones around here who values science and science edu!
mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Sep 10, 2012 - 09:10pm PT
Tony, like your sheepish grin!

Yesterday afternoon, when The Reverend and I were cruising out Le Grand way on our own way to the Guadalupe Summit south of Bridgewater, north of Le Grand were three big-horned rams in a laffably large paddock for just three goats. "Looks pretty cushy, Jeff, but where's the rest of the family?"

Down the road, a good half-mile or so, on the other side of the road was a penned-up flock of the nannies, like a hundred maybe.

And the Rev said to me, he said, "Mousie, if one of those rams believed in God he'd ask for them to be moved at least a few hundred yards closer."

Alas, they are the goats of Matt. 25: 31> Cast into darkness. But with at least a shot at goat paradise. :)
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Sep 10, 2012 - 10:10pm PT
"matter grown to consciousness"
Well, if Carl Sagan were alive, you could take it up with him. It's his phrase.

Maybe someone can refine it for the masses. -Dr. F

No refinement necessary, not for this ol boy.

Hits the nail right on the head, imo. Resonates perfectly with my understanding, attitude, feeling of things.

Different strokes for different folks, eh? Even amongst the "atheists."

I know, try this one on for size...
Consciousness grown from matter.

That's mine. I don't think Carl would mind. ;)
cintune

climber
Midvale School for the Gifted
Sep 10, 2012 - 10:18pm PT
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Sep 10, 2012 - 10:42pm PT
Yeah, Pate posted this too last page or two, I think.

increasingly convinced... beyond religion altogether

The evolution of thought in a holy man, imagine that.


But then again, he's late to the show, we've been pushing for this on this very site for at least a couple of years now. (A couple of us anyhow.)

grounding ethics in religion no longer adequate

To include no more stonings? No longer adequate? Imagine that.
splitter

Trad climber
Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
Sep 10, 2012 - 10:54pm PT
Why should we be moral if we are just accidents descended from animals? We don't expect cat's and dogs, lions and tigers, etc., to be moral. Philosophers have been trying to explain morality without G_d for years. There is no answer or reason why we should be different to animals. But, in regards to the Dali Lama's statement, I agree that "religion" is not the answer. If you have read the four gospels, you would have come to the conclusion that JC also states this.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Sep 10, 2012 - 11:00pm PT
Why should we be moral if we are just accidents descended from animals?

First off, I'll assume you're just a teenager more or less - perhaps on something of a character-building quest, say, and tasked to re-examine the basics - for asking such a self-evident question. (Better than assuming you're just a troll keen on wasting people's time.)

Because if you're not moral, if you're immoral, there's enough goodness in humanity - not to mention desire or lust for payback - to bring hell to your life right here on earth.

In this world, it pays to be moral, it pays to be cooperative, empathetic, good.

.....

"If you don't like the treatment, don't rob the banks."

BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 10, 2012 - 11:03pm PT
I'm feeling a little atheistic; after readin these atheist confermations.

"Matter grown to consciousness"

Bear with me. Did the bee that stung you. Sting you. By instinct. and then go "ha ha i got u back !". OR. Did he, get scared and said to himself " I'll sting him and get him back!".

I read ur post and decided to write U back. And I did!

isn't THAT consciiousness grown to matter?

Jus Split'in Hairs
BB
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Sep 10, 2012 - 11:05pm PT
Blue, why don't you pause for cause. For about three days. You're so tiresome. Or just take it to other threads.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Sep 10, 2012 - 11:07pm PT
Bear with me. Did the bee that stung you. Sting you. By instinct. and then go "ha ha i got u back !". OR. Did he, get scared and said to himself " I'll sting him and get him back!".

I read ur post and decided to write U back. And I did!

oh my goodness!

why, that is just THE most elegant and well reasoned explanation of evolution ever!

Thank you so much!

And best of all, you personally have proved just have wonderfully deep is the depth of the Homo Sapien gene pool! Quite clever of you!
MisterE

Social climber
Sep 10, 2012 - 11:33pm PT
but as Feynman explains in that video clip, he is not looking for "absolutes" as there is no indication that such at thing exists, or that it could be something that is studied.

Best post/quote of this whole thread - Thanks Ed

Although ElCap's post runs a close second. Damn funny, Will.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 10, 2012 - 11:33pm PT
10-4 BIG SPLIT!
Man created religion. Most of the NT is telling U what's wrong with churches.
It's Great to attend one, if U can find some good in one. JC gave the example of what a church is about. The Lords Supper! And anybody can do that anywhere!
Jus Cheer'in
BB
splitter

Trad climber
Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
Sep 10, 2012 - 11:35pm PT
for asking such a self evident question.

Huh?

If it is so self evident, why is it at the center of so many university philosophical discussions & here on ST? It is pretty clear to me that mans "morals" equate to what's best for him/self when it gets right down to the nitty gritty/survival of the fittest life here on earth. What can you expect? Open yer eyes (yer lost in a fog "junior"/fruity/a self deceptive fog i might add). Take a look at all the world powers, what's going on in the ME (which includes/pulled in Russia).

The basic question is, where does morality come from? Survival of the fittest...Knott! How about GUILT? That is a part of moral conscience.

Fruitcake - you have been spewing your fruity garbage for several (3-4) years here on various threads. Talk about blind faith!

EDIT:
I'll assume your just a teenager, more or less.
I'll take that as a compliment! ;)

Unfortunately, impudent was included in the characteristical definition that accompanied my first & so far, lasting impressions of HFCS.
WBraun

climber
Sep 10, 2012 - 11:35pm PT
The sun rises in the east and never anywhere else.

Absolutely since the beginning .......
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 10, 2012 - 11:38pm PT
I didnt think u could answer a question

But I'm sure havin fun!


HAHAHAHAHAHHHAHAHAHAHAHHHHHHHAAAABB
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Sep 10, 2012 - 11:51pm PT
Add Mr. E (for his negation of "absolutes" which is meaningless; a meaningless suck-up?), Blue and this Splitter guy (for their puerile adherence to a bronze age understanding of how the world works) to the confederacy of dunces.

Look no further than this site to represent the scientific, historical and theological illteracy that plagues this American culture.

The U.S. - 30th in math and science literacy - yeah I can believe it.

.....

Splitter, you wouldn't be Trip-7 reincarnate, would you? or his other alias? or perhaps Illusion Dweller or Truth Dweller? How pathetic, really.

Please, head to your Christian myth thread and leave this one to the atheists - many of whom would like to engage in modern, meaningful discourse about what lies beyond traditions of old.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 10, 2012 - 11:54pm PT
Werner, What if U live in the East?
jstan

climber
Sep 10, 2012 - 11:58pm PT
The sun rises in the east and never anywhere else.

Absolutely since the beginning .......

Not so fast.

The earth's axis of rotation actually wobbles sufficiently to move true north around by miles. So the sun does not always rise absolutely the same.

And then if the moon were formed by Theia, the possible change would have been considerably larger.
MisterE

Social climber
Sep 10, 2012 - 11:59pm PT
Yay! I made the Toole's List by HFC!

WBraun

climber
Sep 11, 2012 - 12:02am PT
Absolutely always rises in the east ......
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Sep 11, 2012 - 12:07am PT
made the Toole's List

Sorry, dude, but I gotta call it as I see it.

Just shows how religions make a mess of things. Even amongst folks who might otherwise get along (while climbing or whatever).

But your interference is just that - interference.

.....

I joined the board of TruthMarket because we skeptics need to be more active in calling people out on their B.S. You can participate too.

a Michael Shermer tweet today
splitter

Trad climber
Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
Sep 11, 2012 - 12:12am PT
HFCS - The U.S. 30th in math and science literacy
.
So, we shove more math and science down the throats of our youth and whatt will that produce (btw, i am not saying that we should not increase s&m literacy, i also would personally encourage it)...but, what would that accomplish in regards to what the Dali Lama suggested in regards to what mankind(as a whole) is lacking?

edit:
religions make a mess of things.

I wholeheartedly agree!

But, for instance, Russia, or China, or N Korea'or any number of other non religious countries or super powers suddenly decide to make a power move (which i believe is imminent)...what does "religion" have to do with this?

please head to your Christian myth thread...

d00d, just feeding you some food for thought. do we pose a threat to your wishy washy musings? plus, you continually bring up our foundations in JC as being at the center of all that's wrong with the world? do you knott expect us to respond/defend ourselves? you are constantly instigating it with your flagrant and demeaning chatter!

HFCF - What a Hypocrite, you have 15+ posts over on the "Christian thread"/I Like The Christian Life. If the conversation suddenly shifted there you would be one of the first ones to follow it.
WBraun

climber
Sep 11, 2012 - 12:28am PT
suddenly decide to make a power move

Suddenly?

LOL

Everyone has been busy doing that for years .....
WBraun

climber
Sep 11, 2012 - 12:48am PT
Why mention the word “God” if God does not exist?
ms55401

Trad climber
minneapolis, mn
Sep 11, 2012 - 12:57am PT
werner's not going to burn in hell, unlike the atheists
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 11, 2012 - 01:00am PT
Fruity,
U havnt been listening. Ours is the Truth of Man, and The Spirit of Mankind. Old? Yes!
We've been around Forever!
Help me now..
Yours is a belief in evolution. Where u appeared so u are? Is that right? I'm just trying to get it straight in my head. So when u were born u achieved consciousness? When ur body dies,
Your consciousness ?
Burns out ?
Jus Sad
BB
MisterE

Social climber
Sep 11, 2012 - 01:11am PT
I would just like to point out how simple and succinct the Atheists responses have been, and yet the thread has been over-run by those chest-beating, angsting and ripping away at each other about their beliefs - as if repetition will somehow convert.

Stay simple, my friends. It is the others, those insecure in their own beliefs, that create the chaos in their own minds, and try to engage...

BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 11, 2012 - 01:19am PT
Ur RIGHT E, I'll humble myself before the Lord....

Today!

But tomorrow I might be bold again?

Jus humbl'in
BB
splitter

Trad climber
Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
Sep 11, 2012 - 01:43am PT
MisterE.

I have a total of 7 posts on this thread of 440 posts. My first post was to correct Norton's statement/claim that coccyx "has no use whatsoever"! That was a false statement, so I corrected it. And he (Norton) acknowledged it. I followed up with a few more posts in regards to some remarks that were directed at me. Not trying to convert anyone, they have already chose their path and are set in there ways, I simply corrected an error, and responded to a remark an inflamatory remark directed at me via HFCF!

Adios!
mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Sep 11, 2012 - 02:03am PT
"...and I'll never rise in the west never again. Amen."

Sol's penance.

Never in the west, always in the east? We got that much out of tonight?
slayton

Trad climber
Here and There
Sep 11, 2012 - 02:56am PT
Why should we be moral if we are just accidents descended from animals? We don't expect cat's and dogs, lions and tigers, etc.

First, we are animals. Second, we're not "accidents descended from animal" but a species, like any other living today, that evolved into what it is. Morals themselves are an evolutionary construct. Being human we are social animals. We live amongst oneanother and our very survival as a species depends on us cooperating. "Morals" are the unwritten law that describes how we behave in a society towards oneanother to the benefit of all. "Morals" existed long before they were codified in the Bible or any other religious text. We don't need the Bible to tell us right from wrong. We already know.
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Sep 11, 2012 - 11:38am PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
jstan

climber
Sep 11, 2012 - 12:06pm PT
All matters human involve shocking diversity. This is not to say all that diversity is desirable. Indeed it is not. Unfortunately absence of knowledge can be corrected only by correcting our system of education and an enduring economic crunch that also corrects parents' priorities.

People seeking attention, any attention, do exist. Not providing the desired attention is a strategy that recommends itself.

Seems to me.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Sep 11, 2012 - 01:00pm PT
Another reason I like the atheistic perspective is because it's (way) more inclined to see how the world works from an evolutionary ecological perspective.

For instance, jstan references afore the "enduring economic crunch" - presumably the one we and the rest of the world are currently experiencing.

To hear today's politicans tell it (yes, and plenty of others, too), it's due to taxing too little or too much, government inefficiencies, government interferences and/or people not doing their fair share.

But from an "evolutionary ecological perspective" the reasons are, well... evolutionary... and ecological... In short, we've been fruitful, and we've mulitplied, to fill all four corners of the earth. There's no more new continents to discover and to tame and exploit. All the cheap, abundant fossil fuels of yesterday that empowered the industrial age have been burned, and now our collective egos and greed are about to have to compete as never before for the last remaining quantities. By necessity, we are often curtailed if not overwhelmed with mega-regulations, ever more regulations, essential to complex societies. So, really, how can we expect to continue to grow at certain scales under such circumstances. Ecologically, it is unrealistic; yet on many levels we expect it. Who can stand the truth? Who can stand up for the truth? What's more, cultures around the world all bought into this American standard (if not the American dream) to fight tooth and nail against aging to live as long as you can. To 90 or 100 years old, that's how we define our success even though the last 20 years might be spent in a nursing home at $600 / day and consume hundreds of thousands of family equity. Anything to stay alive for as long as you can no matter what. And of course there are plenty more factors or reasons that could be cited as well to explain the stagnancy or the crunch - few to none having to do with just-right taxation rates, community chests too large or too small, government inefficiencies or regulations, or the content of today's political talk.

Of course we all hope these "culture wars" of today's America (the bulk of which appears to be working itself out in some measure in media and internet forums) don't at some point manifest themselves like they did bitd, and spread to the streets and fields. (Recall Sarajevo of yesteryear or Syria today.) But if they ever do while I'm still alive you can bet I'll be seeing things along with strategizing not from any Bible chapter and verse (*) but from the evolutionary ecological perspective as revealed by the sciences. Hallelujah for that.

* Although "Be fruitful and multiply, sayeth the Lord" in times of war could be good strategy for a community or tribe or nation. The Bates and Duggar families come to mind, here. Good Christians soldiers, all of them, they appear to be.

.....

Cool video there, Marlow.
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Sep 11, 2012 - 01:26pm PT
So, Feynman (and apparently Ed and his posse) believes it's ok or fine (intellectually?) to accept the claim that there are no absolutes.

Anyone got the bandwidth and cycles to follow that line of thinking to the end of the line?

Hmmmm, maybe my understanding is wrong. Maybe what you and Feynman are arguing is that there is no need to look for absolutes because you can't find them (a "scarce resources" or a bounded-rationality argument).

Er, would it not mean that everything, then, is relative? Is that what you really believe?

If so, then cool. Welcome.



The more closely you look, the less you can be sure of anything (save one thing).
WBraun

climber
Sep 11, 2012 - 02:38pm PT
want a world were there are absolutes and things that never change.


Are you stupid. You definitely are.

NIST wants an absolute for a reference and standard for measurements although the tolerances are not absolute but close as they can get to it.

Still they are trying get get as close to it as possible for reference and standard.

Thus they are seeking it.

Absolute means standard to reference against.

Not that anyone is trying to make a dynamic world static as you are trying to imply with your moronic attempt to slam some people.

And you are a voice of science? What a freakin fool.

Typical khanom talking out of his ass as usual .....
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Sep 11, 2012 - 03:36pm PT
Feynman (and apparently Ed and his posse) believes it's ok or fine (intellectually?) to accept the claim that there are no absolutes.

I have a posse?

I think you may be less nuanced then Feynman (or me)... taking Werner's point, yes NIST is trying to provide absolutes, but they also put "error bars" on their standards to indicate the uncertainties inherent in the measurements they make... so, and as Feynman would agree, that uncertainty opens up the possibility that something might be lurking in those error bars...

taking the speed-of-light as an example, now a defined number by NIST. The recent speed-of-neutrino discussion has opened people up to the question of what does set the velocity of zero mass (or near zero mass) particles?

could it be that the very weak interactions of the photon and of the neutrino with the putative vacuum cause a slightly different velocity? could be... we know just how large that interaction difference would be, it has to hide in the uncertainties of our measurements of both the determination of the speed of light as well as the speed of neutrinos.

so the "absolute" speed limit of the universe might be slightly tweaked, and the nature of that tweaking might result in some very profound differences in our thinking on the universe...

when Feynman says he doesn't know how to pose a question about "absolutes" it is because he knows he cannot know something to arbitrarily precise and accurate, also that his theories are based on observations which have been tested only to the level of the accuracy and precisions of those tests...



High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Sep 11, 2012 - 05:20pm PT
Yes, religions make a mess of it.

Angry protesters climbed the walls of the U.S. Embassy in Cairo on Tuesday and tore down the American flag, apparently in protest of a film thought to insult the Prophet Mohammed.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/09/11/world/meast/egpyt-us-embassy-protests/index.html

Bears repeating: Religion makes a mess of it. Esp the Abrahamic religions in their traditional fundamentalist forms.

You have to wonder, just where are the religious moderates - why don't they get on the ball and go and tell their more conservative ilk not to take their ancient chapters and verse so literally? Where are the Muslim moderates telling the Muslim ultra-conservatives that Mohammad doesn't mind being insulted - because he's dead, because his bones long long ago turned to dust. I don't see these religious moderates anywhere. Along similar lines, Where are the Christian moderates standing up to the Pat Robertsons and Frank Grahams to prod them to get with the times, to take things (oh, like the reported divinity of a 2,000 year old Nazerene carpenter; or resurrection) less literally and more allegorically. I don't see them either.

Apparently it's all being left to the atheist to do the dirty work.
WBraun

climber
Sep 11, 2012 - 05:30pm PT
Your tactics reek of deception and hypocrisies:

As
"A lot of christians find this disheartening and want a world were there are absolutes and things that never change. Buncha pussies."

That wasn't towards me, but calling them a bunch of pussies show that you are the childish one.

Your moronic attempts to paint others saying and acting according to your stupid projections is defacto standard to you.

My post above was actually in agreement with Feynman on that platform.

NIST is seeking was the word.

There's always a margin of error on the material platform, and that's an absolute ......
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Sep 11, 2012 - 05:39pm PT
So Werner,

I suppose it would be hard to disagree with this.
I condemn the continuing efforts by misguided individuals to hurt the religious feelings of Muslims -- as I condemn efforts to offend believers of all religions."

Respect for religious beliefs is a cornerstone of American democracy. We Americans firmly reject the actions by those who abuse the universal right of free speech to hurt the religious beliefs of others.

 Our beloved Uncle Sam.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/09/11/world/meast/egpyt-us-embassy-protests/index.html

Shows I think what atheists, progressives, et al are up against.

Meanwhile, billions upon billions continue to be spent on the merry-go-rounds and tit-for-tats of the modern age culture wars. (Hey, we are out of popcorn over here, lol!)
Fluoride

Trad climber
West Los Angeles, CA
Sep 11, 2012 - 05:46pm PT
I'm in your posse Ed.

But that's your fault for making me actually like off widths :)

As for this topic as I stated before, science trumps a fictional book.
WBraun

climber
Sep 11, 2012 - 06:14pm PT
HFCS

My arguments have nothing to do with modern organized sectarian religions and their dogmatic view points.

The key word is sectarian.

Sanatana-dharma does not refer to any sectarian process of religion.



donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Sep 11, 2012 - 06:29pm PT
Atheism gives full value to a person's life....Christianity considers life as just a necessary waypoint on the way to heaven or hell- your choice, or is it?
splitter

Trad climber
Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
Sep 11, 2012 - 06:43pm PT
"Where are the Christian moderates..."

here is your answer...

"I know your deeds that you are neither hot nor cold. I wish you were either one or the other! So, because you are lukewarm - neither hot nor cold - I am about to spit you out of My mouth." Rev 3:16

edit: HFCS - you tell us to beat it, yet you continually tempt us to respond with your incessantly demeaning attacks that (in your mind) are an attempt challenge & destroy our viability & purpose. i could care less. you are no more than "a puff of smoke, here today & gone tomorrow" (are not we all?). although, i do admire your persistence, your tenacity and your drive, Corn Spirit. but, your impudence tends to over rule everything else. it's really a shame...puff (ramble) on!
splitter

Trad climber
Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
Sep 11, 2012 - 07:14pm PT
DMT - it's "deeds" not "seeds"! and to which "creepy reverend" do you refer?

crickets...

edit: Wudevah!

i already have stated my stance elsewhere on this forum. but, for prosperity's sake, I'll repeat that a certain faction of the "church" has hijacked the political system and in the process alienated a good portion of our population. imo, politics won't change a thing. it may change laws (for better or worse) but it won't change hearts. i already pointed out to Big Jim D on the other (Christian thread) how the "church" has a call and it ain't political, see 2 Chronicles 7:14 "If my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and pray and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and forgive their sins and heal their land." He is talking to Christians, many have lost focus, jumped on band wagons and yes, have fallen into "wicked ways"! i won't elaborate, but i suspect ya all know the temptations that are out there. imo, the "Church" needs to refocus and get on our knees and pray. i, personally, don't really give a damn what you think of me or what you spew, so i will leave it at that

DMT - i do take a stand for the under dog (cuz i am very familiar with that ground) do you recall how i defended t*r on another thread? i stood her ground against another Christian, btw! just sayin!
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Sep 11, 2012 - 07:37pm PT
re: the reality of death vs the denial of death

It is interesting to note that... from either the Abrahamic muslim perspective or the Abrahamic christian perspective, atheism appears as a "death cult" - inasmuch as it is the only participant in this dog fight for whom death is real.

Atheism - a death cult - that's some funny sh!t!


.....

It's a tightrope for sure. (a) How do you reject Grandma's beliefs without "hurting her religious feelings." (b) How do you reject Islam and its beliefs without coming across rude? or as some traditional fundamentalist Christians now like to say, without coming across as "haters".

But proceed we must. At least till the day when an atheist or non-theist or non-supernaturalist has at least a reasonable chance of bringing his science education or science literacy to high political office (dare I think it - the Office of the President) in these United States.

Keep the charge!
mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Sep 11, 2012 - 07:58pm PT
DMT, I'm in YOUR posse!!! That was so rank!!!

And good old silent Marlow, who puts it so eloquently with no words!!!

Viewing the HD vids of the Sun, it spooks me to think that Sun-worshippers may be the closest of all seekers to truth.

When viewing the massive destruction the Sun wreaks on itself every second of every day, though it's never a day or night as far as the sun is concerned, it's apparent that it can't control itself. Would this be sensible to say? It must be that physical laws alone do so. Or is it control? (I have to leave that question there. I can't possibly answer that. Others will, eventually. I'm not certain of that. It could happen. Any statement we make about the future is speculative.)

If so, take the reaction I had of "Man-oh-man, I'm scared of that heat and power, I have no business near it, run away." It's the animal in me, the fight-or-flight syndrome, and it's ABSOLUTELY the same reaction a roach has when the lights go on.

If what ever is "controlling" that mass of heat and power is actually in control, cool. In the face of such overwhelming power, indicating control over ALL similar masses, and we may as well throw in the black holes, anti-matter and (any suggestions?) into the mix, then it seems that we need to respect physics a lot more than speculation.

We are essentially on the same wavelength, if you'll pardon the usage, as our Earth-occupying co-habitants, the roach, the rhino, the bison tic, the fly, the worm, and the mice in all the other places besides Merced.

Evolution is a fact and underpins a lot of science.

How might a moderate Christian feel about that? Or a moderate Muslim. Or a Ghud Buddhist? I can imagine the fundamentalists in each of the first two religions reacting viciously and calling for Allah or God to send me to the bad place. A Buddhist, likely, would ignore me. Don't know any of 'em, so I can't say. They are just a obsessed with desire as Westerners in some sects of Buddhism, like the Nichiren Shoshu, whom I have experienced.

But the key to my idea is that we are here, controlled by the Sun's energy, and it in turn is controlled by the physical laws of the universe, which work however they work, and it seems like it's running about like the Creator left it. He's off climbing, I heard. :)

Again, thanks to Marlow.

A proton walks into the bar. The batender, a cute little meson, says, "What'll it be, Big Boy?"
"Ill take a scotch, beer back. How much will that be, Sweetheart. I'm a little short of cash today."
"For you, Big Boy, there's no charge."

This is the first joke told at the Creation. It's pretty old, anyway. In fact, I just bet the Creation was no more than a Facelift on a cosmic scale.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Sep 11, 2012 - 09:45pm PT
Be fruitful and multiply, sayeth the Lord
This an interesting Biblical quotation in the context of evolution. This is really the driver of Evolution (deliberately capitalized) when random genetic mutation is taken into account.
Darwin got it mostly right in spite of knowing nothing of genetics. He figured it out by extensive careful study of the natural world and a lot of clever thinking. Mendel had actually worked out the basis of Genetics yet his work wasn't understood and accepted until the 20th century. Then suddenly Darwin's natural selection could be explained.

I'll be the first to admit there's a great deal we don't yet know about the creation of the universe (or universes) as currently understood by physicists. This doesn't frighten me at all. This doesn't even tempt me to revert to magic and 3000 year old mythology to explain how we got here. Science is demonstrable, and testable, repeatedly. Part of the beauty of science as we know it so far is that behind every explanation there remains a web of new questions. Possibly the best layman's concept of infinity: answers only beget more questions.

I'm not even bothered by the notion that genes, the ability to reproduce and therefore life, came about by random chance. Or the possibility that our universe is only one of a large number of universes where our model of physics doesn't even apply.

Unlike religions, science doesn't shrink from questions, from scrutiny, from new ways of thinking, it thrives on it. Skepticism and Curiosity are to science as Multiply and Mutate are to Evolution. Perhaps we WILL find that the speed of light isn't an absolute limit. No Big Deal, in fact, that would open thousands of new questions to be answered.

Edited to remove my sarcastic comments. Yesterday and today's events in Cairo and Libya remind us all that regardless of our beliefs/non-beliefs we are each free to make that choice. We are also free to question others' belief systems. Little or nothing is gained by being rude.
mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Sep 11, 2012 - 10:32pm PT
Within reason, dude...
splitter

Trad climber
Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
Sep 11, 2012 - 11:14pm PT
Dr.F - You live in fear, and repression controls your emotions and actions.

Wrong!

You don't have a clue!

I have no fear, I fear nothing. I certainly do not fear death!

"Fear not, for I am with you, be not dismayed; for I am your God..."

"Thou you walk through the valley of the shadow of death, you shall fear no evil."

Believe me when I say I have walked through the valley of death!!

Dr.F - ...is used against you in the final judgment of your soul.Quote Here

There is no fear of a final judgment. We are washed in the blood of Christ, sealed for eternity, our salvation is secure. We are called to reach out to the lost. That is our calling. I have been in that Holy place of the Lord. I know how He grieves for the lost. His love for you is DEEP. It is His number one priority and for us as well. It is often hard for Christians to stay on track. For instance, here, all the rejection, bitter and insolent unbelief. I doubt the Lord would dwindle long. So I will go...! But we do care, sometimes that gets lost when we become defensive, I am guilty of that.

Peace!
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Sep 11, 2012 - 11:17pm PT
then why do people say proudly that they are "god fearing"?

why are they so obviously afraid of god?
Andree Hussar

Social climber
ny
Sep 11, 2012 - 11:34pm PT
ok for all you atheists...Why is there something at all !? ( earth, people , universe...)
If the universe is eternal then why is it expanding and dying? There is a time element .
How can something come from nothing and how is this scientific and logical?
mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Sep 11, 2012 - 11:38pm PT
Ask away, you'll never ever get the right answer to that one.

I shouldn't have answered that.

You were not addressing me, the simple skeptic.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Sep 11, 2012 - 11:50pm PT
Andree, with all due respect, wouldn't you be more comfortable on the Christian thread? perhaps even in lieu of this rock climbing site a knitting site or a Wheel of Fortune site.

.....

Playing along though... while waiting for images of Emma Watson to download...

Your question seems to suggest because we moderns don't know all the answers to all the mysteries we can think of, it only makes sense to turn to - otherwise default to - the God of Moses and Christianity or Islam.

Well let me just say, God Jesus and His Father, the warrior God of the Mesopotamian Bronze Age, don't even make my long list of ancient local deities I would turn to - if for some imaginary reason I had to get religious tomorrow, say. Apollo and Artemis, for instance, or Serapis, would get my attention way before these dudes, just sayin.

.....

Pop Quiz / Theology

You do know your God's name in Arabic is Allah. Right?
splitter

Trad climber
Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
Sep 12, 2012 - 12:01am PT
Norton- Then why do people say proudly they are "god fearing"?

God "fearing" is about reverence, profound awe, respect and adoration! It is not a fear of eternal punishment, damnation or whatever. We are chastised from time to time. And that is out of love not hate. For lack of a better example, we are like sheep and tend to wander at times, what can I say but that I am a prime example!

You would have to have a personal relationship with Him to understand. I don't expect you to. But maybe you can relate to this; I loved my father, and as a child, i understood he had my best intentions in mind. Whenever he scolded me, it was for my own good. I was fortunate to have a very forgiving and understanding father. If I did something wrong, or something that could be damaging to myself or someone else, he brought it to my attention. Although I sometimes regretted it initially, I new it was best, and I respected him for that, it helped shape my character!
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Sep 12, 2012 - 12:05am PT
Why is there something at all !?

always wondered about that myself.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Sep 12, 2012 - 12:06am PT
ok for all you atheists...Why is there something at all !? ( earth, people , universe...)
If the universe is eternal then why is it expanding and dying? There is a time element .
How can something come from nothing and how is this scientific and logical?


we don't know... and it's very interesting to try to understand it...

There are people who are alive today who would remember that the universe was filled with stars, then Hubble did his thing and realized the universe is filled with galaxies, which were all moving apart, the universe was expanding, how does that happen?

then more observations led us to see that the galaxies clustered together, and that the clusters cluster... all sort of things

we measured the mass of the luminous universe and concluded there wasn't enough to "close it"

but then we figured out that there was a lot of dark matter around, a lot, and then that the universe was expanding at a lesser rate when it was young, the expansion seems to be increasing... and we called that stuff dark energy.

all this is scientific stuff, and adds to our understanding of the universe...

measuring the cosmic microwave background with precision we learned that it is not uniform, and we have inferred that the ripples we see in that background, the remnant of the time when electrons finally became bound to protons to make hydrogen and releasing the light in the process, those ripples are the fluctuations of the pre-big bang state, what ever that was, we still don't know

but the point is that we continue to learn, we're not afraid of saying we don't know, we keep on pushing to know and in the process we increase our knowledge.

Andree Hussar

Social climber
ny
Sep 12, 2012 - 12:11am PT
ok for all you atheists...Why is there something at all !? ( earth, people , universe...)
If the universe is eternal then why is it expanding and dying? There is a time element .
How can something come from nothing and how is this scientific and logical?

could someone answer this ?
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Sep 12, 2012 - 12:13am PT
there is no answer to "why?" because there is no reason for it
the universe doesn't care about why...
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Sep 12, 2012 - 12:15am PT
I know, somebody go post this on the Christian thread...

Part I: Okay for all you Christians... why don't you practice astrology? why don't you believe the stars and planets control the fates of men?

Part II: Okay for all you Christians (or Muslims)... why don't you worship Marduk or Ashtar or Isis or Amon-Re? Really, why did you settle for just God Jesus and God Jehovah when you had so many local deities to choose from - out of that time and place?

Is it really just because your parents worshipped this pair - this father son pair - this bad cop good cop pair - that you do, too? Knowing what we know about the world today, is this really reasonable - a legitimate reason - esp if you care so damn much about truth? and getting it right as you say?

Speak up Christian supernaturalists, tell us what you know. But on the Christian thread - that would be better perhaps.
Captain...or Skully

climber
Sep 12, 2012 - 12:15am PT
Why is a Human Construct.
It IS. Isn't it cool?
Andree Hussar

Social climber
ny
Sep 12, 2012 - 12:21am PT
**there is no answer to "why?" because there is no reason for it
the universe doesn't care about why...

Reread what you wrote and tell me if it is logical or scientific
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Sep 12, 2012 - 12:22am PT
you believe in astrology, huh?

don't be afraid, tell us.

Do you prefer Jeopardy or Wheel of Fortune?

just curious
WBraun

climber
Sep 12, 2012 - 12:27am PT
Ed H -- "the universe doesn't care about why..."


Since we are part parcel of this Universe you are saying we don't care why our car is not running when we need it in the morning to drive to work.

There is no separation of (us) the living entities, matter and spirit from the Universe,

Therefore ... the Universe cares about "why" ......
Andree Hussar

Social climber
ny
Sep 12, 2012 - 12:29am PT
1, 2012 - 09:24pm PT
ok for all you atheists...Why is there something at all !? ( earth, people , universe...)

Why not?

WHY?
Andree Hussar

Social climber
ny
Sep 12, 2012 - 12:31am PT
If the universe is eternal then why is it expanding and dying? There is a time element .

How do you know it's dying?

If God is eternal, then why is the universe dying? If God is eternal, then what happens after the universe dies?


THIS IS THE ATHEIST THREAD THERE IS NO GOD
Andree Hussar

Social climber
ny
Sep 12, 2012 - 12:37am PT

Sep 11, 2012 - 08:34pm PT
ok for all you atheists...Why is there something at all !? ( earth, people , universe...)
If the universe is eternal then why is it expanding and dying? There is a time element .
How can something come from nothing and how is this scientific and logical?



SO SINCE THERE IS NO GOD PLEASE ANSWER MY QUESTIONS.
Studly

Trad climber
WA
Sep 12, 2012 - 12:39am PT
Peace my friends. Have faith, there is a great plan at work. There is always God, and nothing you say can change that. Life is good, enjoy the ride.

[Click to View YouTube Video]
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Sep 12, 2012 - 12:41am PT
what, you find your Christian thread too boring to support any longer? lol!

or just too creepy ghoulish: washed in the blood of christ, and such.

really, how pathetic
WBraun

climber
Sep 12, 2012 - 12:45am PT
stzzo -- "But, ultimately, the answer is ..."

Your so called material science does not deal in Ultimate.

Now you're saying that God exists since he's "Ultimate" .......

splitter

Trad climber
Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
Sep 12, 2012 - 01:05am PT
HFCS - Is it really because your parents worshiped this pair

No, my parents didn't worship Him, they didn't know Him. In fact, my father was very suspect of the RCC and certain priests in general. It was the only religion we knew, so we drifted in and out of its Sunday services from time to time. But my father did get on his knees and pray every morning and night. But that was a personal thing for him, he never spoke about God, the church (except for the occasional derogatory remark) or anything else "religious" and neither did my mother. My father often questioned the existence of God. One of his primary questions was, "Then why does he allow the little children to suffer?" He did except Christ very late in life, as did my mother. I came to belief on my own at a young age and He entered my life in a very dramatic way, it left no doubt whatsoever.

As far as those who do it to please their folks or whatever, they are out there. But, they are only fooling themselves, it is personal relationship that you step into with a very powerful and revealing God!

Supernatural experiences, yes, but I doubt you could relate and for lack of a better word, they were very heavy. But they were just that, experiences, they were meant for me and it would be an injustice for me to try to explain the depth of the presence of God and what He illustrated to me. Perhaps in a congregation of fellow Christians and that I have done. And on one occasion His presence was very evident. Like He said, "Where two or more of you gather in My name, I will be there with you." Internet blogs are not the place to share those experiences, for they are lacking. But I have attempted to share a few here, much to my regret. You can't express the presence of God in human words!
WBraun

climber
Sep 12, 2012 - 01:32am PT
You said it I didn't.

You said "Ultimately"

maximum decisive conclusive .... the ultimate authority

It's Synonym is "Supreme" .....
mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Sep 12, 2012 - 01:41am PT
As in Taco Supreme?

Ultimate Taco?

Bye-bye, Goin' to jack in the sky.


jstan

climber
Sep 12, 2012 - 01:49am PT
Andree Hussar

Social climber
ny

Sep 11, 2012 - 09:37pm PT

Sep 11, 2012 - 08:34pm PT
ok for all you atheists...Why is there something at all !? ( earth, people , universe...)
If the universe is eternal then why is it expanding and dying? There is a time element .
How can something come from nothing and how is this scientific and logical?



SO SINCE THERE IS NO GOD PLEASE ANSWER MY QUESTIONS.

1. We do not know that there is no god. We do know there is no data saying there is a god. Anybody's god.

2. Thanks to the Hubble telescope and to Bell Telephone Laboratories there is an answer to your question. Why is there something? You are in for a treat.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=7ImvlS8PLIo

Because of Quantum Mechanics, when you have nothing, you will always get something.
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Sep 12, 2012 - 01:52am PT
As I've read through the entire thread a few days ago, I observed what I believe is a pretty strong correlation.

It seems that atheist sentiments are highly associated with respect and belief in science as some sort of final arbiter. So, I would suggest that the title of the thread may be restated or misleading. I think it might be: "I like the science life," which provides a different set of values and beliefs than a non-atheist life.

In the end, it seems to me that people are really arguing (or their assumptions) about the basis of reality. That topic was probed considerably on Largo's thread, "What is Mind," and on Dr. F.'s thread, "Science, Religion, and Politics."

It's been said here just recently that science trumps religion or God. What a funny idea that is to me. There are so many places and situations where science has almost nothing to say--like about The Beautiful or The Good. Science is a really good tool, but I doubt it is a universal tool.

Tonight I finished watching Keanu Reeves' documentary entitled, "Side by Side." It's a film about the impact in the entertainment industry of switching from film to digital technologies. The movie presents interviews of cinematographers and directors across the globe about the subject, and through those, we get a great deal of discussion about the difference between the technologies (film versus digital). Invariably, however, the technologies take second fiddle to overriding concerns about imagination, the beauty of images, and the importance of compelling stories. That's when I thought about this thread.

Science presents a set of stories to us, and people here want to argue which stories are True. In that there appears to be no absolutes, the whole idea about the truth of one particular story over another is interesting . . . at least curious.

The things people argue about here--as if they really mattered in our lived lives. (Angels on the head of a pin.) Sheepishly, and with some humility, I argue that the things that really matter are neither about science nor organized religion.


(Lovesgasoline could probably spin a skein of gold from the detritus I've written above.)
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Sep 12, 2012 - 02:06am PT
really Werner, do you care "why your car died?"

not how it died, why, on that particular day did that particular part decide to fail?
do you care, really?

no, you'd just let it sit there, do another couple of laps on Astroman, and deal with it later...
you don't care why... you'd just go and fix it...


the universe, as a whole, seems rather hostile to humans... there aren't many places we could survive, just here, perhaps there are many places, but the vastness of the universe would exclude us... in fact, we're not even made out of the stuff most common in the universe, our universe is an impurity in the actual universe...

...yes we have consciousness, yes we give purpose to what we do, yes we care... but the universe gets along quite well without us... as far as we know, our particular impurity left over from the big bang isn't really an essential feature of the universe, it would probably do quite well without it... who knows? we will probably in a few decades...

but by and large, the universe isn't here for us

we happen to occupy a particularly hospitable place in it
we should enjoy our short time living in that place




in the competition of ideas, it would seem that science provides something that religion and philosophy do not, which is expanding knowledge.

what is new in religion?
what is new in philosophy?
how are those areas progressing?

Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Sep 12, 2012 - 02:11am PT
MikeL

Look into the mirror
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Sep 12, 2012 - 10:53am PT
i think mike L's observation pertains. this thread seems to have attracted a lot of people who equate science and atheism. out in the real world, you'll find plenty of scientists who harbor various religious beliefs. likewise, in any given atheist society--not the skeptic society, mind you--you'll find people without a great deal of scientific literacy who are just fed up with religion and looking--as every churchgoer does--for people with similar beliefs, for the comfort to be derived.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Sep 12, 2012 - 11:14am PT
this thread seems to have attracted a lot of people who equate science and atheism
Well, this appearance is wrong. At least much of the time. For many. As many of us use the term atheist or atheism... by default... only because we "believers" don't have any better term presently.

But make no mistake. Science is one thing. Atheism (not to mention its antipode: theism) is another thing. And any new disciplines to come with more evolution - either relating to beliefs or to the "practice of living" - will be yet another thing.

.....

P.S. That you and MikeL would agree on many things - why does't that surprise me, lol!
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Sep 12, 2012 - 11:25am PT
Taking a page from the Abrahamic religions?

http://dailycurrant.com/about/

Q. Are your newstories real?

A. No. Our stories are purely fictional. However they are meant to address real-world issues through satire and often refer and link to real events happening in the world.

Don't let the facts get in the way of a good story.

On the one hand, the more things change the more they stay the same. On the other hand, this is the new reality in the internet age.

Given the world we live in, is there a place for these "satiricals"? Seems there is. As evolution won't be selecting against them.
jstan

climber
Sep 12, 2012 - 12:48pm PT
So, I would suggest that the title of the thread may be restated or misleading. I think it might be: "I like the science life," which provides a different set of values and beliefs than a non-atheist life.

When discussing these topics I think we need assiduously to resist using the word "belief" except when we mean

an opinion that requires no supporting data and is also not subject to criticism or modification

Belief used also to mean any opinion.

That meaning needs to be deleted from the dictionary.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Sep 12, 2012 - 12:51pm PT
I think we need assiduously to resist using the word "belief"

You've said this many times, now. I can't think of anything more self-defeating. And thus ridiculous.




Beta: Take a couple linguistic courses. Hopefully they should inform you that you'd have better luck sailing a dandelion to the moon.


belief: any mental holding whatsoever (for better or worse, opinion or not, right or wrong, true or false, hurtful or helpful, etc.)



I hear Alex Honnold is an atheist. I hear Lady Gaga and Adele are inclined toward both science and atheism. Suggest to them they remove "belief" (not to mention "spirit" and "faith") from their lyrics - see how far that gets you - see how much that makes you look like a loon.

Gotta "wise up" man in both linguistics and general human nature. And stop gumming up the movement with overly anal retentiveness (yes characteristic of some overly engineered types).

I've got "beliefs" in science. I've got "beliefs" in rock climbing and in other sports. I've got "beliefs" that concern human nature and human history. I've got "beliefs" concerning traditional fundamentalist Muslims and Christians. They are evidence-based. Rock solid. So there. ;)
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Sep 12, 2012 - 01:10pm PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Sep 12, 2012 - 01:11pm PT
re:
"an opinion that requires no supporting data"

I know... "An opinion that requires no supporting data" might be called... an opinon that is baseless... or an opinion that is unsupportable. Or even bs if you don't agree with it.

Belief used also to mean any opinion.... That meaning needs to be deleted from the dictionary.

Yeah, good luck with that. :(
jstan

climber
Sep 12, 2012 - 01:21pm PT
Beta: Take a couple linguistic courses. Hopefully they should inform you that you'd have better luck sailing a dandelion to the moon.

HFCS:
I get the impression your first priority is not one of communicating effectively.

You will of course continue to say what you believe. I will continue to say what I think needs to be said.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Sep 12, 2012 - 01:24pm PT
I get the impression your first priority is not one of communicating effectively.

Your impression couldn't be more incorrect.

Dude, I don't know, my role models with respect to communicating are the likes of Carl Sagan, Sam Harris, Thomas Friedman, Richard Heinberg, Steven Pinker - to name a few.

They use these terms. Even in a technical setting. Do you really think as word-symbols they don't communicate effectively.

Btw, I did get A's in all my hs and college english classes, you? And right now, ironically, I am working in applied linguistics, lol, you?

-Which is why I take your post (along with your others along the same lines) so personally. Heck, you might even say it's professionally offensive. :)

P.S.

And as an engineering undergrad and pro engineer I did have the oppo to meet many an engineering type with their head so far up their ass they couldn't see daylight. Regarding social skills, communicating and such.

.....

Here, this by Sam Harris:

http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/a-plea-for-spirituality

In similar fashion, would you be one of those to encourage Sam Harris to dump the word "spirit" or "spirituality" because religions have made a mess of them? This, too, would be self-defeating.

And don't get me started regarding "truth." What's wrong with some of yous - no wonder religions and their nonsense get so much traction still.

.....

I will continue to say what I think needs to be said.

Well, since this topic is my current purview, I'll be sure to try to follow you in order to see what kind of traction you get on your quest. Let me know if you tweet. :)
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Sep 12, 2012 - 01:44pm PT
Belief = story = theory = idea = concept = abstraction = thought = thinking.

Go beyond or get before.

Ideas may have had a great deal to do with man's evolution and change, but they are just ideas. They are all made up. Even facts are ideas.

EDIT: Marlow, when I look in the mirror closely, all I see is light / pixels.
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Sep 12, 2012 - 01:56pm PT
MikeL

So many words.
TomT

Trad climber
Aptos.
Sep 12, 2012 - 02:19pm PT
It seems that the term atheism is framed as a counter response to belief in God. And many Christians I have known have that opinion about scientists, as if science was atheism. I think I am a non-theist, and do like the science life.

I have come to see that I am not just an agnostic, that I really don't believe in some sort of supreme being or spirit that creates or manages this world, but I don't define myself in opposition to such beliefs, although I do find that when I say that I don't believe in God it seems to make a ruckus with family and friends, so I don't say much. It would be great if believers wouldn't get so agitated - I think many struggle with doubt and fears about hell and such. I've pretty much accepted that there is no afterlife (actually never think about it) , its upsetting when family and friends die, but lots of stuff in life is upsetting...and as Woody Allen says, forever is a long time, especially the last part.

And I do think about beauty and other stuff, and drive my artistic wife nuts because I do think about beauty from science perspective (I'm an anthropologist) so I don't spend much time thinking about whether there is a God, or why there is a universe, mostly think about why one person or group thinks differently than others.

Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Sep 12, 2012 - 02:21pm PT
agnostics lack faith in their convictions
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Sep 12, 2012 - 02:36pm PT
Hey, just in case it wasn't perfectly clear already let me say I appreciate the robust debate (or exchange) I just had with jstan.

Indeed. So thank you jstan.

Sure beats the hell out of debating Abrahamic nonsense, a subject that should've been finished in the 19th century.

.....

In the future, maybe we'll have a... I Like the Science Life thread, too. There's probably room for both. :)


.....

Another fine post by TomT.

Framing matters.

.....

Some atheists relish their counterpoint to theists. Even as reflected in their identity's etymology. Their pastime if not passion it seems is battling the theists ad nauseum. You seriously wonder if deep inside they would want theism to come to an end in human thought, culture and belief - what would they do with their lives? it would mean the end of their "atheist" identity...

But for others, a-theism is just something of (a) a clearing agent (b) a holding ground - till a better description (or "practice of living") comes along. And, in the end (if further progress prevails), "atheism" won't make any more sense than anastrology (an-astrology).

.....

J._Christopher_Stevens (1960 - 2012)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._Christopher_Stevens

One more casualty of Abrahamic nonsense, Islamic version.
WBraun

climber
Sep 12, 2012 - 04:03pm PT
Some say: take God out of the equation

Some say: God never was in the equation.

I say: God is the equation .........
splitter

Trad climber
Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
Sep 12, 2012 - 04:48pm PT
HFCS: I get the impression your first priority is not one of communicating effectively

lol!

Okay, perhaps my "first impression" of you, HFCS, as having strong "impudent" characteristics (or whatever i said) was a bit harsh and I humbly apologize for that. I was a little taken back, at the time, at your labeling me/my question as being juvenile. I believe "teenager" was the specific word used. That's all water under the bridge as far as I'm concerned (i say dumb ass sh#t all the time and get called out for it by best friends and family) C'est la Vie!

But, dood (HFCS) is respect part of your mentality or vocabulary?

I do respect the both of you, although I may not see eye to eye on various subjects. Mr. Stannard, (jstan) is a man well traveled and has accomplished very much both academically, socially, etc., and has certainly made his mark in climbing history. Perhaps all that is beside the point to you HFCS and as a matter of fact, it is besides the point. Cuz, from a humanistic position/point of view, shouldn't we treat each other with a bit of respect no matter where we have been or come from. Isn't that what "communicating" is all about, what it all boils down to.

You tend to throw out a lot of insults. It's rather representative of a person who needs to elevate themselves above everyone else, imo! And that can be/become, sooner or later, very problematic in life! Just sayin!!
splitter

Trad climber
Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
Sep 12, 2012 - 05:49pm PT
TT - Your a fluke of the universe.

I'm a fluke of the universe? Thank you for that revelation. It answers a lot of my questions, it levels all my hopes & inspirations and leaves me with little doubt...I am a F'n Dirtbag fer Life! I am know truly free! Amen!!!

;)

edit: i do not necessarily identify with the d00ds in the vid though. for instance, i was against the Iraq war from the very beginning and was very vocal about it...just for starters! Just sayin!!
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Sep 12, 2012 - 05:53pm PT
And to think we were created in His image!

High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Sep 12, 2012 - 06:55pm PT
TT, enjoyed that, tfpu.

.....

Splitter, you gotta grow a thicker skin - if you want to last around here. The good news in the moment is, I no longer suspect you as a new alias of Trip7 or IllusionDweller.

EDIT Can anyone remind me what Trip7's other alias was - I'm drawing a blank.

.....

re: extremists

I've seen this before. But it seems esp apropos today...


Traditional Muslim ideology is a scourge on the modern 21st century world.

.....

P.S. What did you post, Norton, it doesn't appear in my browser; hope it wasn't an Emma Watson nude! ;)
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Sep 12, 2012 - 07:01pm PT
Werner, potential progress here, don't f*#k it up!

I say: God is the equation .........

If your "God" could be extended to (the fullness of) Mother Nature (whom I sometimes, after personfication, call "God" for her awesomeness and bounty and "higher powers") then we could be in agreement, here! :)
Fossil climber

Trad climber
Atlin, B. C.
Sep 12, 2012 - 07:05pm PT
How about this for a bumper sticker:

"THANK GOD FOR RICHARD DAWKINS"
WBraun

climber
Sep 12, 2012 - 07:06pm PT
What da mean don't fuk it up.

I'm the guy that's coming into this train wreck of of a thread to kick the bar stool out from under ya.

Get ready ......
Betty Uno

Mountain climber
Alti Plano
Sep 12, 2012 - 07:06pm PT
If you're ever in Billings, Montana there's a group called the Humanists.

They are atheists who maintain that being good, and doing good without fear or favor making you do it is a far far nobler thing.
splitter

Trad climber
Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
Sep 12, 2012 - 09:07pm PT
HFCS & jstan,

I apologize, bros!

I shouldn't have butted into someone else's conversation! Sorry about that!

Peace!!
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Sep 12, 2012 - 09:15pm PT
How about this for a bumper sticker:

"THANK GOD FOR RICHARD DAWKINS"


welcome to this thread, WAYNE MERRY!
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Sep 12, 2012 - 10:50pm PT
What's the topic of the thread, again?

"Train wreck" is right.
P.Rob

Social climber
Pacomia, Ca - Y Que?
Sep 12, 2012 - 11:17pm PT
what is new in religion?
what is new in philosophy?
how are those areas progressing?

Ed this is a really good question


In Philosophy you are seeing more in the way of “Applied Philosophy” such as Bioethics, Environmental Ethics and Business Ethics. An interesting development is in the area of the new Philosophy of Cosmology

http://www.philosophy.ox.ac.uk/news__events/older_news/philosophy_of_cosmology_-_new_field_of_study

http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2012/01/what-happened-before-the-big-bang-the-new-philosophy-of-cosmology/251608/

http://philocosmology.rutgers.edu/

Religion is harder to drill down, weighed down as such by the usual suspects. If, as is the context of this thread, religion = Christianity the last few years there has been the development of "New Christianity", "the Emergent Church" and "Generous Orthodoxy".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emerging_church

How are they progressing? I believe you will be hearing more out of the Philosophers Camp as it connects to the New Atheists – BTW I purposefully steered away from anything with the vestiges of “Religion.”

Biblical Epistemology & Archaeology I think is a most interesting if not contentious subject
jstan

climber
Sep 12, 2012 - 11:39pm PT
HFCS & jstan,

I apologize, bros!

I shouldn't have butted into someone else's conversation! Sorry about that!

No need to apologize. Corn spirit has this deep desire not to let people appropriate words. He opposes evolution in language. Just a flaw, something we all have.

If you want to communicate effectively you have always to bear in mind what the reader thinks the words you use mean. If you want to be understood you choose another word.

HFCS also seems to feel a good discussion must include sharp edges and emotion. Try following those rules when you are talking to the judge.

In a discussion everyone is a judge
jstan

climber
Sep 13, 2012 - 12:01am PT
See?
WBraun

climber
Sep 13, 2012 - 12:08am PT
HFCS

Try and be nice to jstan .... he's a really really good guy.
jstan

climber
Sep 13, 2012 - 01:08am PT
You can mention cleaning only if you are willing to get a progress report.

Robert Fonda, Dave Beruman and myself are working on The Pit in JT. We finished clearing the 18 acres on Tuesday. Here is what we did all of today.


Another half day will get the whole thing sorted for recycling and bagged for the land fill. The rats and mice have chewed everything to bits. I now know everything there is to know about JT climbers. It is not pretty. More about that later.

By Friday we should be caravaning this and the clearly abandoned junk to Landers. Hopefully the dump personnel will not run screaming into the desert as we approach.

Wish us luck.
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Sep 13, 2012 - 10:13am PT
impressive stewardship--cheers to you fellows.

i forgot--whose side is god on here?
Psilocyborg

climber
Sep 14, 2012 - 06:00pm PT
I thought this discussion was interesting. Atheist and non atheist users of the psychedelic compound dymethyltryptamine discuss "spiritual experiences" induced by the molecule. Visions of entities and extreme other worldly technologies are common during the experience

Is it ok to link to other forums? https://www.dmt-nexus.me/forum/default.aspx?g=posts&t=32694

MissJ

Social climber
AZ
Sep 15, 2012 - 12:04am PT
people make mock you for believeing --belive anyway.

right on Jody!
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Sep 15, 2012 - 02:46pm PT

Get involved.

Location: Hyde Park, Australia

Dawkins has taken flak for characterizing religious indoctrination of children as “child abuse.” Well, look at this picture and deny it.

http://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/2012/09/15/child-abuse-2/

"...the brain of this boy is being warped and twisted by vicious Muslim ideology. What hope does he have when he grows up?"

Islamic ideology is the scourge of the modern world. What, don't believe it, read the Quran for yourself. Better, study it.
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Sep 15, 2012 - 02:52pm PT
And then we have Jesus Camp.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Sep 15, 2012 - 02:53pm PT
Agnostics lack the courage of conviction that both Atheists and Theists have.

But they are evolving.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Sep 15, 2012 - 02:57pm PT
How does the atheist / naturalist / progressive make sense of the crazy sh!t just posted last page?

Here's Sam Harris, taking an evolutionary ecological perspective:
"We have barely emerged from centuries of barbarism. It is not a surprise that there are shocking inequities in this world. It is hard work to climb down out of the trees, walk upright, and build a viable global civilization when you start with technology that's made of rocks and sticks and fur. This is a project and progress is difficult."

At least it helps put it in context.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Sep 15, 2012 - 03:16pm PT
Pam wrote,
"Of all characteristics, humans are followers. This was a safety measure, perhaps, during evolution, but it is now an egregious defect." -Jerry Coyne blog

Yes, agree.

.....

Richard Dawkins: "Christian atheist" or "Jewish atheist" ?

You decide...
[Click to View YouTube Video]

Don't you think traditional Islamic ideology is something of a window onto traditional Christian ideology? I do. Makes sense, they're both Abrahamic religion.

donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Sep 15, 2012 - 06:56pm PT
Who/what created the infinite God, and who/what created the who/what...and on and on.
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Sep 15, 2012 - 07:42pm PT
Carl Segan had many fine points… Here's just one of them:

[Click to View YouTube Video]

More Antitheist than I was before.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Sep 15, 2012 - 08:52pm PT
What's clear from your post is that you are the "nonbeliever" in the powers of evolution via natural selection.

Bone up on evolutionary theory, then you'll believe. And it will be a reason and evidence-based type of believing. Which beats blind baseless believing every time.

.....


Many an atheist to evolutionist still needs to learn to reframe the conversation in their terms.

Learn to recognize religious snarewords and religious rhetoric. Don't fall for it. Then, for a change, you can lead them in defining the conversation, not the other way around.

.....

Great vid Jingy, I'll have to check out the rest in this Sagan Series.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Sep 15, 2012 - 09:06pm PT
Malemute, thank you for being one of the few in the progessive secular non-theist community to bother enough to distinguish between the many and various god concepts of old.

I only wish more atheists were literate enough across the disciplines - history to theology in particular - also lingusitics to rhetoric - to realize when they argue with traditional Christians (aka Christian theists) the "God" under inquiry is Jehovah aka Yahweh (or His Son-God Jesus) and they should (a) confine their arguments and (b) hold the Christians to this specific "God."

Then again, one atheist or two around here just enjoys the on-going atheist-theist battle for ever and ever. Or so it seems. "Post and be heard. Forever and ever." His battle cry? His claim to fame? :)

"Jahweh" - that's funny spelling, I like it.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 15, 2012 - 09:10pm PT
Khanom,
We've tried to relate with you the proof we have to all the answers of the universe. But it can't be told it must be experienced... If you are sincerely interested I live on Sunburst Street email me and you can come over for an eye to eye conversation. So far you just told us how naïve or stoned you are. Our explanation is not "crap happens"that's what you chose to hear. A inorganic spark hitting organic matter and turned into a worm which turned into a fish which turned into a bird etc. which turned into you "that's crap"

Jingy
Look at this dot.. Stare into it this is your brain on drugs.
Did you just watch the movie or did you listen to the words? "Our preferences don't count " "we do not live in a privileged reference frame" I give you more credit than that. you should be thinking more highly about yourself. Instead of being high thinking only of yourself.U dont have to live with this defeated atheistic point of view...
I'm Back
BB
Ricky D

Trad climber
Sierra Westside
Sep 15, 2012 - 09:12pm PT
Never underestimate the collective power of the human imagination.

I spent several intense years searching for "God" and in the end concluded that it/He/She/whatever was naught but the product of imagination created to either explain the confusing or assuage the masses.

BTW - bearded sandal wearing semi-white guy didn't exist before the printing press.
jstan

climber
Sep 15, 2012 - 09:23pm PT
How do we know god can create intricate designs? We are supposed to be created in his image, but we can't even get straight something as trivial as health care. How much design does it take to decide giving someone a monopoly is not the path to a free market? And god created something as deficient as us?

Jody your basic premise that god is perfect, is fatally flawed.

And don't get all twisted up in arguments over omniscience. Omniscience is probably not even possible. Just like absolute truth. When you tell us there is a god you had better be able to show us data that things happening around us are not guided by simple physical laws. Eg. things fall when you drop them.

If you do not do this, your argument becomes nothing more than, "Trust me."

I have something better to suggest. If after 2000+ years of looking, everyday, for evidence that god has done something in the world around us

no one has come up with anything.

Consider. When you get in your car you don't worry particularly about having an accident?

Why?

Because you have gotten in your car thousands of times with few to no bad results. Suppose you had been getting in your car every day for 2000 years. Wouldn't you say you did not particularly need to worry about an accident?

That's what I am saying. Nothing more. I don't need particularly to worry about god.

Why are you so different?

Why not spend the time you are presently worrying about god on making pictures and helping others?
WBraun

climber
Sep 15, 2012 - 09:25pm PT
No one has come up with anything.

All the evidence is there.

One must only use the correct tools.

Modern science uses the wrong tools for the job.

Thus they remain bewildered and blind ......
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Sep 15, 2012 - 09:26pm PT
jstan wrote,
How do we know god can create intricate designs?

No free pass tonight, jstan.

To which "god" does your post refer? Unless you give "units" to your "god" it is a meaningless post.

If you're meticulous about language and definitions, prove it. And prove it from here on out.

.....

btw, theists (of Abrahamic religions) tire me; they are so tedious in their arguments. Arguing against them to atheists on an atheist thread is just preaching to the choir. I'd rather have a robust discussion among fellow secular progressives concerning ideas or strategies for moving forward in a post-Abrahamic world and solving, for example, the Abrahamic problem (esp among teenage males and "boy-men" of traditional Islam - I'm sure you've noticed of late) in the Middle East.
jstan

climber
Sep 15, 2012 - 09:35pm PT
Jody:
After the events of the past two days do you think Mohammed is something we might choose to worry about? And why do you think there might be cause to worry?

Something more important than the cost to you of gas.

Things happening by themselves is an interesting question. Since 1880 we have reached the point that we can calculate and predict with great accuracy what a large portion of the events around us in the real world will be like. That and our present understanding of the creation of the universe require only that events are guided by all their possible paths. If you will a democracy in the natural world.

I know it is unsettling to accept one does not know everything. Knowing everything is just omniscience, a myth. What might be a better metric? The intention that, by the time we die and disappear completely, we will be able to understand and predict things that could not be predicted when we were born.

HFCS:
I was not talking to you. I think I know to which god Jody is referring.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Sep 15, 2012 - 09:40pm PT
I think I know which god Jody is referring to.

Yes, exactly, and apparently you just don't get it. You and Dr. F both.

The inertia of ignorance. Maintaining the talk of "God" at the sixth grade level. Shame.

Suffering fools. Aughh.
jstan

climber
Sep 15, 2012 - 09:59pm PT
Actually you are close Malemute. We are made of atoms formed in stars. So stars did in fact give birth to us. If we merely replaced worship of someone who lived not too long ago with the worship of stars some of the common concepts might become a little more accurate. Not a lot more though.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Sep 15, 2012 - 10:05pm PT
I think those who have a strong and fervent belief in gods have every right to do so.

Maybe they should not post on this ATHEIST thread, because they ARE going to be questioned and quite possibly "mocked".

Same as an Atheist posting on the Christian Life thread, you know there will be blow back

Stay out of the kitchen if you can't take the heat, or quit complaining when challenged.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 15, 2012 - 10:07pm PT
Jstan
Big questions there. We are created in his image by the meaning of body mind and soul. Which is reflected from his father son and holy ghost concept. When Jesus died on the cross he said it is finished. With regards to his works and miracles for us to see. Now we must find him through reading his word and faith. "how much more reward for those who believe by faith then those who have seen him?". God saved us for the end of times because we were stronger and not susceptible to ego. Then those of early days who needed to see a miracle to believe. I do not worry about God I am at peace with the universe. I only worry that I don't say the correct things that may help you understand. With your lack of knowledge of the Bible when there's only been one book through all mankind that says that I am the creator and only I can give you everlasting life. Why wouldn't everyone want to read it I can't comprehend.

Jus address'in
BB
WBraun

climber
Sep 15, 2012 - 10:10pm PT
Stay out of the kitchen if you can't take the heat

I'm in your kitchen dude and there's nothing in it.

It's frickin cold in here too. Are you frigid?

Only in Gods kitchen is it warm and fire is going.

In here the fire is out as your soul is extinguished.

Even a flame thrower can't do sh!t in here.

What me worry .......
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Sep 15, 2012 - 10:16pm PT
or quit complaining when challenged

Perfect timing, funny.

T'was my thought exactly when I posted and then turned the page only to see jstan's post.

If you can't stand the heat, just don't post.

.....

No free passes for anyone.
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Sep 15, 2012 - 10:19pm PT
...especially given Jahweh's ignorance of the universe.


From what cicumstance or certainty is that evident?
WBraun

climber
Sep 15, 2012 - 10:26pm PT
must make you and all the other children all warm and fuzzy feeling.........


Yes yes

I love it when children are happy and full of life.

It makes the heart soar.

Instead of cold hearted frigid curmudgeon like you who needs a flame thrower to barely thaw out long enough to stay warm .....
MisterE

Social climber
Sep 15, 2012 - 11:38pm PT
My wife is shaking her head.

"Too many questions."
Fossil climber

Trad climber
Atlin, B. C.
Sep 15, 2012 - 11:55pm PT
It doesn't take religion to do good, but it makes a convenient rationale for doing harm.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 16, 2012 - 12:13am PT
I NEVER WANT TO PUT WORDS IN GODS MOUTH!

MY knowledge and understanding of the Bible allows my logical thinking mind to think outside the box. Just as I believe bursting glacier in north America could have carved out the Grand Canyon in a week. Or an astroid could hit the planet and throw us into an instant ice age or the planet could flip on its axis and cause the whole planet to melt in a day. I believe scientifically these things could happen. So spiritually I believe if God wanted to Create a new world out of a dead one. He could easily throw a big snowball and jack us up!

Jus Chill'in
It's cold here in JTree tonight
BB
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Sep 16, 2012 - 12:26am PT
Just as I believe bursting glacier in north America could have carved out the Grand Canyon in a week

in only a week!

imagine that

well, that explains how the earth could be only 6000 years old if the Grand Canyon could have been created in seven days....this explains a lot, thanks
WBraun

climber
Sep 16, 2012 - 12:38am PT
This kitchen is still cold as sh!t.

Nothing happening in here.

Everyone is still stone cold frozen.

Where's the fricken flame thrower ?????

Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Sep 16, 2012 - 12:44am PT
You have to be pretty gullible to believe the Noah's Ark tale



What if Noah's Ark was intended as metaphor?

A metaphor given to teach deeper life lessons...

I would be as pleased as anyone if remnants of the Ark were discovered. I'm fairly certain manifest evidence will not be found, though...

Why is it compulsory...even rigidly obligatory for believers to take Genesis literally...and disbelievers to reproach compelling guides, morals or messages on underpinnings of ad litteram history?
WBraun

climber
Sep 16, 2012 - 01:01am PT
Jennie has a good brain,

The rest stupid.

The kitchen just got a little heat ....
WBraun

climber
Sep 16, 2012 - 01:26am PT
is the infinite omniscient being also a metaphor?

God is real, absolute supreme being.

Atheist will turn cold stone face when hearing this.

You watch .....

Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Sep 16, 2012 - 01:39am PT
What if Noah's Ark was intended as metaphor?
Then you wouldn't need precise dimensions.

True...Do the detailed measurements and exact dimensions in Moby Dick waive Melville's metaphor and symbolism ?
WBraun

climber
Sep 16, 2012 - 01:44am PT
Again good brain Jennie

All these guys here with their rulers fell in the dark well ......
WBraun

climber
Sep 16, 2012 - 01:46am PT
Definitely has no clue ^^^^
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 16, 2012 - 02:00am PT
The flamethrower is in Europe, Australia and Egypt right now. Muslims have attacked US embassy's And are calling for the beheading of Christians.
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Sep 16, 2012 - 03:13am PT
The morals are (mostly) sound. But that doesn't mean the messenger is an infinite omniscient being who created the universe.

Though, if the ark is a metaphor, is the infinite omniscient being also a metaphor? Is the rest of the Bible also not to be taken as ad litteram history?


I believe that the Bible had many authors...or messengers, if you will....all human, some inspired...none, omniscient.

Human fallibility doesn't contravene the existence of an omniscient God...or the divinity of Christ.

I credit much historical portent in the Bible...but, personally, wouldn't take everything, written by mortals... word-for-word, as undeviating history...(choosing to assimilate and digest concepts with obvious merit )

...remembering the writings didn't fall out of heaven one day.
jstan

climber
Sep 16, 2012 - 10:43am PT
Way back in 1927 Lester Germer, a climber, found that an electron could go through two slits at the same time. In 1948 Dirac, Feynman, and Schwinger showed they could calculate a host of physical experience out to ten decimal places if they assume a particle takes all possible paths in going from point A to point B.

The wiring in our brains evolved over millions of years to react to the macroscopic events around us and to survive. We were not directly threatened, nor could we observe these microscopic events. So it is we find incredible what it seems extremely likely is going on all around us. The data seems very strong even the universe came into being in just such an incredible fashion.

The last 100 years have made it very evident we have a lot to learn and we will constantly find ourselves incredulous. Feynman, who was renowned for his ability to illuminate the challenge we face, gave a four part lecture in New Zealand titled Quantum Electrodynamics for the Nonscientist. I recommend it to you.

http://www.vega.org.uk/video/subseries/8

With the Trinity explosion at the end of WWII these microscopic events moved center stage in the question of our survival. If we want to survive we now need to become comfortable with the parts of nature heretofore hidden from us. We will either learn and adapt, or we will die.

Yes we all can believe what we like.

But there will be a cost.

Are you willing to pay that price?

Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Sep 16, 2012 - 11:00am PT
There are times when I could be able to believe in the Great Psychobilly-burger who fed the unbaptized children who moved from Limbo to Paradise when the Catholic convention declared that there is no Limbo around 2005, but mostly I don't believe in the Great Psychobilly-burger and I am no agnostic. The American spirits of Jennie and WBraun are on their side completely free to be agnostic in relation to the Great Psychobilly-burger as they are free to join Jesus Camp or Ten Camp if they want to.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 16, 2012 - 11:18am PT
Jennie
The same problem exists today as it did in days of old. How do u translate the bible to Spanish Chinese russian? Seems hard to translate the same message to different languages.
But we must try. It's our duty.
Sometimes I look up words in the Hebrew and Greek dictionary to get a better comprehension of the bibles meaning.

Jstan
How am I suppose to believe in something I can't see? Ha!

Jus Float'in
BB
WBraun

climber
Sep 16, 2012 - 11:22am PT
God is a metaphor

God is not a metaphor.

God is real and absolute.
WBraun

climber
Sep 16, 2012 - 11:34am PT
Only a fool speaks like this.

Only a fool bases all his experience in life on a book and then makes his judgement without any experience only base on reading a book.

The book readers are like climbers who only read a book and never go climbing and then become experts on climbing with no experience ....
WBraun

climber
Sep 16, 2012 - 12:24pm PT
The Right Wing Republicans condemn other all other beliefs other than their own (including atheists, which we find appalling and intolerant.


Yes .....
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Sep 16, 2012 - 09:39pm PT
nice performance...
...so what?

MissJ

Social climber
AZ
Sep 16, 2012 - 10:10pm PT
Jody, this ois pnly for you. You're an example to live by. Thanks for not giving up. Did you get my personal reply?

My only question is What if the Atheist find out they are wrong. Scientist have had to change their findings over and over again. the thing is we who belive go by faith not sight. I have had too many experiences to not believe and I will not forsake him ever. If things go wrong it's the devil who is at work. some just don't see it that way. Of cousre this is a debate that can go on forever because the christian knows Gods works and the atheist only knows the devil.
Maybe we can change one atheist at a time.
MissJ

Social climber
AZ
Sep 16, 2012 - 10:23pm PT
DR. F I doubt you have set any christian straight as you proclaim. Certainly not me. I know GOD. It's a spiritual thing. you can not change that .
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 16, 2012 - 10:33pm PT
drF
Good thing ur not talking about mohomid;
U might have to be beheaded...

Jus Say'in
BB
MissJ

Social climber
AZ
Sep 16, 2012 - 10:37pm PT
Dr. F, We who know God do not need to change . We know our paths and bitd ,what exactly happened that you had a chnge of heart?
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Sep 16, 2012 - 10:51pm PT
Know god...no, you have FAITH that there is a god. I'll take knowledge over faith every time.
MissJ

Social climber
AZ
Sep 16, 2012 - 10:58pm PT
Donini, what positive knowledge do you have ?
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Sep 16, 2012 - 11:01pm PT
good luck, atheist. And God bless....
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Sep 16, 2012 - 11:04pm PT
thanks bluey...

What if the Atheist find out they are wrong.
what if they are right?

donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Sep 16, 2012 - 11:04pm PT
With a small g....please.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 16, 2012 - 11:08pm PT
Donini
You couldn't be more wrong!
All your knowledge is relative!
The only truth you know are your experiences....
The only truth I know goes in and out of my heart...
Every thing in my head could be proven wrong.

Jus Express'in
BB
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Sep 16, 2012 - 11:14pm PT

What if the Atheist find out they are wrong.
what if they are right?

Ed, this is why I love you, man.

Isn't that the question? The ultimate question? I'm sure you know that even Einstein had questions about this before his death.

Big question. Big answer...
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Sep 16, 2012 - 11:16pm PT
not only is that a big question,
it is one we all answer ourselves...

what does it matter to anyone else what I have decided is the answer?

MissJ

Social climber
AZ
Sep 16, 2012 - 11:23pm PT
Ed, there is no question that those who have faith will not be proven wrong. And what, if in some moment you question your atheisim, will you do. Do you not know that each day you are given is with the grace of God? Each breath you take, each time you use your senses of thinking,of sight and sound, each appendage movement is but for the grace of God? You get to begin a new day and have the opportunity to give thanks for all He has given you and to try and live in His likeness. We may fall short in that but we are given each day to try again.
Captain...or Skully

climber
Sep 16, 2012 - 11:28pm PT
So quit polluting the atheist thread with yer god bullsheets.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Sep 16, 2012 - 11:31pm PT
Einstein


The word god is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this.
Letter to philosopher Eric Gutkind, January 3, 1954

It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it.
 Albert Einstein, letter to an atheist (1954), quoted in Albert Einstein: The Human Side, edited by Helen Dukas & Banesh Hoffman

bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Sep 16, 2012 - 11:51pm PT

what does it matter to anyone else what I have decided is the answer?

You answer the question in your own manner. The answer is inside us as individuals.

It is that simple.
WBraun

climber
Sep 17, 2012 - 01:15am PT
Ed H -- "what does it matter to anyone else what I have decided is the answer?"

Because we are not fully and completely independent.

All our actions interact in some way or other with the whole.

That is why the word responsibility caries so much weight ......
mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Sep 17, 2012 - 04:00pm PT
If this is posted already, let me know.
But if He hollers, pray to Go
d.Mouse from d place dat's da best
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Sep 17, 2012 - 07:43pm PT
Jody, you are offensive.

On so many levels.

If you keep posting your religious stupidities on this thread, the modern progressives - who have been very lenient so far - have every right (for some a felt duty even) to pull out the stops and hit you with both barrels. It's your call.

The reason people swear by "knowledge" over faith is pride. And pride is the #1 downfall of man.

What friggin nonsense. This is 21st century America. Not the Middle East. Not the 11th century. Children might be reading, for edusake. Head to your Christian thread, spare us.

Also, take a few science and history courses.
Psilocyborg

climber
Sep 17, 2012 - 07:51pm PT
Jody, MissJ ....you are obviously fooled by the devil. Look at you wallowing in negativity. I will pray for you.
jstan

climber
Sep 17, 2012 - 08:44pm PT
Jody:
Jesus would be well served were you to concentrate on taking photographs.
WBraun

climber
Sep 17, 2012 - 08:46pm PT
One must explain why two persons of the same moral standard achieve different results.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 17, 2012 - 09:20pm PT
C' mon D' Mouse
Cat' cha clue
U don't hav ta do, what' cha do
With' out a cause.
Duck ur head,
Grab ur tail, with ur claw.
Here comes that Big cat.
With the Big paws.
BB that's me!
I come with THEE,
WORD.
Look up In the air, NO over there.
Times a shak'in,
With a mean glare.
THIS TACO AIN'T FAIR!
Don't sit' round gett'in bak'in.
Put it DOWN for God sak'in
Lift my brow'
Make me snicker.
Jus gimme words that's good for my ticker!
In someone's head, is no place to be.
Cut straight through the heart.
That's for me.

Jus Play'in
BB

Peace!
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 17, 2012 - 09:50pm PT
Jody
Take a chill,
Pill.
Show ur grill.
Don't need to kill.
Some just wanna swill.
U can't giv'em the fill.
If U make it like a hill.
There's more soil to till.
I'm ur doctor, and here's ur bill.

Jus ill'in
BB

Peace!
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Sep 17, 2012 - 10:26pm PT
Yet you folks defend that religion at every opportunity.

who are "you folks"? I would not defend Islam any more than I would defend Christianity, but I would defend your right to believe in whatever you want to believe in... as I would for Islam...

I hope I have not been offensive to your beliefs, but certainly you would afford me not only the right to my beliefs, but also the right to talk about beliefs.

jstan

climber
Sep 17, 2012 - 10:44pm PT
Jstan, how so? If you are of the persuasion that I am being offensive, then you don't get it either


Jody:
This is the same kind of self righteous reasoning that allowed people many centuries ago to look upward with a beautific smile as they poured molten lead down the throat of another, whose only failure was the refusal to bend their knee to someone.


You do not question yourself.


I have not the slightest doubt you are a good person.

That does not relieve you of your duty to become better.
splitter

Trad climber
Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
Sep 17, 2012 - 10:58pm PT
Okay, I have a good question for everybody! Who are the dirtbags & who are the urban yuppies? I mean, if the Atheist were all on one side of C4 and the Christians on the other? Because, everyone who stays in C4 is one or the other, evidently. I was just wondering!
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 17, 2012 - 11:03pm PT
10-4 Big Ed , U r a Great Voice!
No offense to me. Can't offend me with mere letters....
BB
splitter

Trad climber
Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
Sep 17, 2012 - 11:10pm PT
Hey Ed, are you a urban yuppie or a dirtbag? If you were to stay in C4 that is? Help me out here...does not anyone know where they stand on this issue? I thought everyone was either one or the other, fer crying out loud!

edit: okay, thanks Ed, jstan, Dr.F! Very interesting answers.

btw, i am pretty sure the three of you would make a great climbing team. you are individual enough that you wud not argue over the lead role, etc. and you would each work together to get the task done! concentrating on yer individual strengths and complimenting each other to balance out any weak areas, Kudos!!
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Sep 17, 2012 - 11:12pm PT
I dirt bag when in the Valley even if I don't have too
jstan

climber
Sep 17, 2012 - 11:23pm PT
I stay in C4 every Facelift.

I am a non-dirtbagger.

I am also a non-yuppie.

I am f-----g me.

:)
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Sep 17, 2012 - 11:40pm PT
you're right, I don't get it...

you're saying you could be offended because there are things you could consider as offensive being said...
...then you say an offensive things and take umbrage when those "folks" tell you they are offensive.


Edit: it's just a number
splitter

Trad climber
Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
Sep 18, 2012 - 12:14am PT
WB, lets get real here for a moment. fergit this nit pikin at each other. wud are ya, dirtbag or urban yuppie?

edit: never mine Werner, i already know the answer = once a dirtbag, always a dirtbag! sorry WB yer a dirtbag fer life!!
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Sep 18, 2012 - 12:19am PT
One must explain why two persons of the same moral standard achieve different results.

what do you mean by "moral standard"?

do you mean the two people conform to the rules of right conduct?

do you mean the two people are capable of conforming to the rules of right conduct?

where as "ethics" are a system of moral principles, rules of right conduct or the distinction between right and wrong.

That is to say, your "moral standard" is how well you follow your ethics...

if two people are of the "same moral standard" then, presumably, they follow their ethics to the same degree.

perhaps their ethics are different and the obtain different results?

BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 18, 2012 - 12:30am PT
It's precise meaning is .666%
It comes from John looking into the future (now) and seeing that two thirds of mankind has the world in his mind and actions. While only one third has the Lord.
Sad
But True
Jus Quot'in
BB
WBraun

climber
Sep 18, 2012 - 12:32am PT
See Ed

It's a real tough question.

Especially since "they achieve different results"

We'll thinking about this one for a long time .......
Andree Hussar

Social climber
ny
Sep 18, 2012 - 12:33am PT
Jody,

You need to shake the dust off your feet and move on as some people are blind and will never see.....
It is a waste of time.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Sep 18, 2012 - 12:35am PT
One must explain why two persons of the same moral standard achieve different results

Two persons may evaluate the antecedent conditions and current situation differently. Also they may foresee the consequences of actions differently. Therefore they can make different decisions with equal moral justification. Only the actual outcomes can be measured objectively.
This is the basic reason that moral absolutes are meaningless.
Perhaps the most dramatic and consequential result in our time is the atomic bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Even with what we know today, 67 years afterwards, two morally equivalent (whatever that means) people can come to different conclusions as to its moral justification. We know the outcome was horrific, possibly more horrific than Truman thought it would be. Yet what if he had made a different decision? We can only guess what that outcome would have been.

Moral decisions must be based upon information and reflection rather than reflex. If they are based solely upon dogma they can't be called moral decisions, they are unjustified actions.
WBraun

climber
Sep 18, 2012 - 12:37am PT
Splitter

I'm not a dirtbag, nor Yuppie, nor Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu, atheist, theist, agnostic, climber, rescue guy and a million other designations attached to oneself.

You'll just have to go thru a few more life times to figure that out ......
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Sep 18, 2012 - 12:39am PT
It is a waste of time.

one could look at it that way

I'm actually surprised that you would say something like that, but then again, you believe in your truth, and you believe there is no other.

That's scary.
splitter

Trad climber
Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
Sep 18, 2012 - 12:59am PT
WB, i have just been kidding about the yuppie/dirtbag thing. kind of rubbing it in cuz most people are individuals, don't adhere to labels. everyone got hung up on it over on that other thread. at most, it is just a frame of mind that one might see some resemblance to or superficially relate to in a small way somehow. but basically, there as many variations as there are people, imo!

edit: i wud want the fruit of his spirit! because he wud be giving his heart. he wud want to give the best to God. The other wud give it out of pride (look what id did) i am giving you this.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 18, 2012 - 01:01am PT

" Explain why two people of the same moral standards achieve different results "

Easy; Starts from the heart. Look at Cain and Abel. Both were bringing their offering to
The Lord. One brought the fruit of his hands, the other the fruit of his spirit. If U were God which would U want?
Read Genesis 4 to find out what happens....

Jus Explain'in
BB
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Sep 18, 2012 - 01:06am PT
I do not like the atheist life.

To limiting.

I prefer the all of the above life.

My mind is not limited to one or the other

slayton

Trad climber
Here and There
Sep 18, 2012 - 02:13am PT
The reason people swear by "knowledge" over faith is pride. And pride is the #1 downfall of man.

Quick definitions from Google:

knowl·edge/ˈnälij/
Noun:
Information and skills acquired through experience or education; the theoretical or practical understanding of a subject.
What is known in a particular field or in total; facts and information.

faith/fāTH/
Noun:
Complete trust or confidence in someone or something.
Strong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof.

pride/prīd/
Noun:
A feeling of pleasure from one's own achievements, the achievements of those with whom one is associated, or from qualities or possessio...
Verb:
Be especially proud of a particular quality or skill.
Synonyms:
noun. arrogance - haughtiness - vanity - conceit
verb. glory - boast

How is your faith, gained from personal experience or taught to you by others, any less prideful than the knowledge personally gained by others or passed down by others? I come to my understanding of the world by my immediate experience in it and by the verifiable (scientifically explainable and able to be reproduced) experience of others. Though I don't believe and I don't have it I respect your right to believe in your faith just as I respect the rights of any other to believe in their faith.

The reason people swear by "knowledge" over faith is pride.

Do yo believe that anyone without faith in your god is suffering from pride? And how do you come up with "pride is the #1 downfall of man."?
WBraun

climber
Sep 18, 2012 - 11:52am PT
MissJ

You don't have a good brain.

Khanom specifically said in his original post of this thread (reread below).

Please let others tell their story, hold your reactions, criticize on other threads and let the Atheists, or whatever lack of blind faith they may have post here, be proud of who they are being for a moment.

I have many christian friends. I like them and they like me. We respect each other and our own beliefs. I also have friends who have other religious beliefs, and all that is just fine by me.

But as an atheist I feel compelled to request equal time and consideration. I'm tired of feeling like I live in a country that automatically condemns anyone who doesn't have "faith" as somehow abnormal.

They will attack you for being here. They asked you to keep your religious comments out of here and post them in the other thread.

What the hell do expect????

If I go into the hell's angels bike bar and tell em a bunch of stuff that pisses em off how long do you think I'll last before they put me thru the blender and feed the juice to the pigs.

So quit yer whining and suck it up unless you have the actual goods.

Internet forum here won't do it.

Atheist and theist have been since the very beginning of time began and is not ever going away.

So if you want to battle then fight like a true warrior and quit yer whining ......
BurnRockBurn

climber
South of Black Rock City (CC,NV)
Sep 18, 2012 - 12:00pm PT
^^^^^^^^ thank you. ^^^^^^^
Longest post I think I've seen from you
Shawn
Studly

Trad climber
WA
Sep 18, 2012 - 12:10pm PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Sep 18, 2012 - 12:13pm PT
I thought I had spiritual experiences, like everyone else

Dr. F., you're having spiritual experiences every second of your life.

Know god...no, you have FAITH that there is a god. I'll take knowledge over faith every time.

Donini, everything that "you know" is a belief, save one--your existence.

What if the Atheist[s] find out they are wrong?

Ed, the only ones who are not wrong are those who do not try to be right.

One must explain why two persons of the same moral standard achieve different results.

One mustn't, Werner. There are not two of any. It just seems that way. Everything's perfect. How could reality be flawed or separate or different? It's just one and the only fact.
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Sep 18, 2012 - 12:16pm PT
I like the atheist life.

I like the religious life.

I like the retired life.

I like the agnostic life.

I like the solipsist life.

I like the scientist life.

I like the climber's life.

Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Sep 18, 2012 - 01:21pm PT
Now Miss J, you're trying to drag gender into the argument?

No where did Werner say you shouldn't make an argument because you were a woman. Then you really muddy the waters by saying you'll be more accepted into a biker's bar than he will. You can't have it both ways. You can't claim gender discrimination and then flaunt your sexuality. From one woman to another, it's hypocritical and annoying.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Sep 18, 2012 - 01:41pm PT
There are none so blind as those who will not see.
I couldn't have said it (sarcastically) better myself.

People who live a life based on science, known facts, verified experiences, have a very clear vision of existence. Certainly there are many things that are yet unknown. This is the intriguing mystery of science. This is what drives exploration of all frontiers, including psychology and philosophy.
The atheist (not capitalized) simply understands that there is no Magic Being, most particularly, there is no Magic Being whose existence would be contrary to known facts and established principles.
There is plenty of unknown. For atheists, that is part of the beauty and wonder of existence.

Atheists don't deny the intangible aspects of human psychology: wonder, joy, grief, mystery, beauty, love, hate. Those intangibles that form the human spirit, our soul. The human spirit is a marvelous and wonderful thing, mostly of beauty, occasionally of wickedness. We don't need to believe in ancient myths and stories to understand what we know and don't know, nor to appreciate the breadth and depth of human existence. We do know that many of these myths and legends explore the depths of the human soul. Our eyes are wide open.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Sep 18, 2012 - 01:42pm PT
Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely
So I should feel blessed!
amen
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Sep 18, 2012 - 01:47pm PT
I'm quite sure WBraun, that the grand server of life has laid down two rules in your spirit, and the strongest one is not "everything is connected" but "every man for himself". I guess that's what you call "a huge boner and hard on". Are you a proud man?
WBraun

climber
Sep 18, 2012 - 01:57pm PT
HighTraverse -- "Those intangibles that form the human spirit, our soul."

So you saying there is the individual soul.

Modern material science has not accepted nor confirmed the existence of the individual soul.

Yet you say:

"People who live a life based on science, known facts, verified experiences, have a very clear vision of existence."

Am I "seeing" your response wrong?
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Sep 18, 2012 - 02:58pm PT
Verily it warms my heart to see...

(1) ever more people drawing the important distinction between (a) respecting the right to believe (or respecting the right to express belief) and (b) respecting the belief.

(2) ever more people drawing the important distinction between (a) general faith and (b) religious faith or Christian faith.

Progress!
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Sep 18, 2012 - 03:01pm PT
Werner
The human soul as I understand it, is metaphysical. That aggregation of emotion, motivation, and morals that each of us possesses. It is unique to each individual and is one of the manifestations of our existence. It's part of our mental existence, it dies with each of us. It's very likely that most "higher" animals also have a soul in that meaning. One of the mysteries of science that I believe (don't know) we'll unravel in the future.
I'd LOVE to know the soul of my companion dog.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Sep 18, 2012 - 03:02pm PT
“Those of us who write and study history are accustomed to its approximations and ambiguities. This is why we do not take literally the tenth-hand reports of frightened and illiterate peasants who claim to have seen miracles or to have had encounters with messiahs and prophets and redeemers who were, like them, mere humans. And this is also why we will never submit to dictation from those who display a fanatical belief in certainty and revelation.”
― Christopher Hitchens
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Sep 18, 2012 - 03:02pm PT
I just hope I live to see the day that churches are not accorded non-profit
tax status. Has the GAO ever totted up the guvmint's lost taxes on that
scam? It's gotta be near a $trillion.
cliffhanger

Trad climber
California
Sep 18, 2012 - 03:44pm PT
Christians talk about being persecuted but they have a heinous, murderous history of persecuting others.

Google - Inquisition - for 600 years of really brutal christian butchery.

Here's a good link:

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/vatican/esp_vatican29.htm

"Anyone who attempts to construe a personal view of God which conflicts with Church dogma must be burned without pity."

 Pope Innocent III

And after the Catholic Inquisition, the Protestants used their own Inquisitions to establish their own churches, (they murdered and tortured the Catholics and other opponents).

There's about 2000 years of Christians murdering and torturing people. And thousands of years before that of the Jews reign of murder and genocide. None of which has Christendom or Judaism repented. The supposed 100% true, pure word of god that promoted such murderous butchery is still there in the bible, the torah and the talmud.

Read the entire chapter of Numbers 31. The sacrifice of 64 virgin girls to their god was especially murderous.("the lord's tribute" = burnt sacrifice)

Deuteronomy 2:32-37, 3:1-7, 20:12-20,

Joshua 11:6-23, 12:1-24.

Check out this link for many more evil verses from the bible:

http://www.evilbible.com/
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 18, 2012 - 04:14pm PT
Do U think if I shoot Obama I in the name of Christianity that I was a Christian ?

Do U really think Jesus would have my back?

I find it amusing when people talk shite about something when they havnt a clue. I find it sad when people talk shite about Jesus when they don't even know him.

SERIOUSLY
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Sep 18, 2012 - 04:18pm PT
You're right, I've never met Jesus. Haven't looked him in the eye. Haven't shaken his hand. Haven't heard him speak to me. Haven't even read anything he's written.
Does that mean I'm talking sh*te?
Seriously
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Sep 18, 2012 - 04:29pm PT
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahdian_Crusade


The siege of Mahdia

It has been estimated that the total force numbered about 5,000 knights and soldiers plus 1,000 sailors.[2] Two priests representing both popes blessed the departing. An armada of about 60 ships left Genoa on July 1, 1390 and landed at the end of July near the town of Mahdi where the soldiers disembarked unchallenged. The crusaders put up their camp and invested the fortified city for the next two months. They had failed to bring sufficient siege engines to breach the walls. A relief army reportedly 40,000 men strong was brought up by Hafsid Sultan Abu al-Abbas Ahmad II supported by the kings of Bugia and Tlemesan, camped nearby, avoided pitched battle, but started to harass the crusaders. The crusaders had to build a wall around their camp and fortify it. The Berbers send out a negotiating party asking why the French would attack them, they had only troubled the Genoese, a natural affair among neighbors. In answer the they were told that they were unbelievers who had "crucified and put to death the son of God called Jesus Christ." The Berbers laughed saying it was the Jews not they who had done that.[2] Negotiations broke off.

In a subsequent encounter with the large relief army the crusaders killed many but eventually had to retreat exhausted and tired. The duration of the siege not only frustrated them, but their logistical systems started to weaken. When a final assault on the city was repelled they were ready to settle for a treaty. On the opposing side the Berbers realized that they could not overcome the heavier armed invaders. Both sides looked for a way to end the hostilities.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 18, 2012 - 05:37pm PT
Reilly, Really?
This country was founded by a church. The church of Christ. Don't u think if atheist started it they would have put a double tax on religion? Your freedom to choose, life , liberty, and the pursuit of happiness comes from the New Testament. The Constitution was written with one hand while holding the 10 commandments in the other. They are carved into the White House!
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Sep 18, 2012 - 07:15pm PT
Constitution eh....then you must know about "seperation of church and state." One hand on the bible eh.... Jefferson and Franklin were irreligious or, quite probably, atheists.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Sep 18, 2012 - 08:25pm PT
Blue, a few of the first colonists came here to escape religious persecution
but they certainly did not "found" the country. The vast majority of the
early colonists came for personal aggrandizement or, in effect, to wipe
out the real owners of this 'country'.

As for churchs' tax status that is quite simply a matter of the tax code,
not the Constitution.
Psilocyborg

climber
Sep 18, 2012 - 08:39pm PT
I am not an Atheist. And a loving God isn't negative, YOU are. You MissJ. Look at you judging me (and atheists in this thread) and twisting my words as to deceive...sound familiar?

Your church has fooled you MissJ, you are being led astray. Again, I will pray for you. If you were getting your strength from God, you wouldn't be attacking and/or judging anyone.

God isn't such a narcissist that he requires anyone to believe in him.

Sorry! one last reply to:



Psilocyborg, climber-Sep 17, 2012 - 04:51pm PT
Jody, MissJ ....you are obviously fooled by the devil. Look at you wallowing in negativity. I will pray for you.

Psilocyborg, since when is loving God negative? And just who does an atheist pray to?

Didyour life has not turn out they way you wanted or at some point you prayed BITD and God did not give you what you prayed for, or someone died that you loved so much and you hated God because of it? Things happen for a reason. IF your life is not what you want then it's up to you to make it better by believing in yourself and asking God to help you the way. He, sometimes when we pray , says NO not at this time. And when we pray for someone to live when they are so ill, it's our breaking hearts that are being selfish but God knows to take them so they will no longer suffer.
We remain and eventually heal from our broken hearts.

Now back to my life as God gives me strength to get though a grieving process.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Sep 18, 2012 - 09:06pm PT
MissJ
Now back to my life as God gives me strength to get though a grieving process.
I missed this poignant line first time around.
Please do pray to your God and may he bring you some comfort, healing and hope. Sincerely.
eeyonkee

Trad climber
Golden, CO
Sep 18, 2012 - 10:11pm PT
I like the atheist life by default. Anything else would involve "jumping off the cliff" with respect to the rationality and reason (and lust) that guides the rest of my life. The world as it is is enough for me. Belief in sacred texts and their religions is too arbitrary and location-specific.
WBraun

climber
Sep 18, 2012 - 10:17pm PT
People here are way scared to get out of their comfort zone.

Everyone plays it safe too much.

Free solo .......
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Sep 18, 2012 - 10:28pm PT
who taxed whom?

from:

http://www.history.org/almanack/life/religion/religionva.cfm


Religion in Early Virginia

 Law mandated Virginians worship in the Anglican Church
 Church supported by tax dollars
 Line between religious and civil authority blurred
 Struggle for religious freedom paralleled struggle for political independence
 Virginians not tolerant of non-Christian religions
 White women were primary guardians of family religious life


from:
http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/religion/rel05.html

V. Religion and the State Governments

Many states were as explicit about the need for a thriving religion as Congress was in its thanksgiving and fast day proclamations. The Massachusetts Constitution of 1780 declared, for example, that "the happiness of a people, and the good order and preservation of civil government, essentially depend on piety, religion and morality." The states were in a stronger position to act upon this conviction because they were considered to possess "general" powers as opposed to the limited, specifically enumerated powers of Congress.

Congregationalists and Anglicans who, before 1776, had received public financial support, called their state benefactors "nursing fathers" (Isaiah 49:23). After independence they urged the state governments, as "nursing fathers," to continue succoring them. Knowing that in the egalitarian, post-independence era, the public would no longer permit single denominations to monopolize state support, legislators devised "general assessment schemes." Religious taxes were laid on all citizens, each of whom was given the option of designating his share to the church of his choice. Such laws took effect in Massachusetts, Connecticut, and New Hampshire and were passed but not implemented in Maryland and Georgia.

After a general assessment scheme was defeated in Virginia, an incongruous coalition of Baptists and theological liberals united to sunder state from church. However, the outcome in Virginia of the state-church debate did not, it should be remembered, represent the views of the majority of American states that wrestled with this issue in the 1780s.
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Sep 19, 2012 - 12:10pm PT
Experiencing the here and now on a continuous basis, an objective reality.

Dr. F., you're just about there. You can drop the modifier, "objective." There's no need for it. If reality is anything, it is everything, don't you think?

Indeed, you can drop every modifier you can conceive of. There is no need, and it only confuses the mind.

Every perspective on this thread means to take the high ground. Everyone is struggling for principled action to reject the bad and to cultivate the good. That constitutes a moral duality. Folks cling to the illusion of their personal version of the world (their views and opinions); they make distinctions between right and wrong that are emotionally motivated; and they act out of fear, hatred, desire, attachment, pride, and prejudice.

Evil doesn't obscure reality but the regular functions of a dualized intellect do.

All dogma, attachment, and striving enshroud perfection. Golden chains and hemp rope are equally binding.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Sep 19, 2012 - 12:22pm PT
Oh, no, he's back.

Somebody give him a push back down that sh!thole of nihilism and fatalism he comes from.

.....

Apparently the responses to Sam Harris' latest post to his blog...

On the Freedom to Offend an Imaginary God

http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/on-the-freedom-to-offend-an-imaginary-god

crashed his site.

Allah must have intervened...

.....

the truth is that the White House struck the same note of apology, disavowing the offending speech while claiming to protect free speech in principle. It may seem a small detail, given the heat of the moment—but so is a quivering lip.

As predictable as Muslim bullying has become, the moral confusion of secular liberals appears to be part of the same clockwork.

Truth is, this Muslim "outrage and bullying" over pics and such needs sorting out now before the Islamic world goes nuclear - which it will.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Sep 19, 2012 - 01:05pm PT
Every science and high civilization-respecting atheist should know who Ayaan Hirsi Ali is.

Here's her take on the recent Muslim "outrage."

http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2012/09/16/ayaan-hirsi-ali-on-the-islamists-final-stand.html

"How should American leaders respond?... If the U.S. follows the example of Europe over the last two decades, it will bend over backward to avoid further offense. And that would be a grave mistake—for the West no less than for those Muslims struggling to build a brighter future."

The Muslim men and women (and yes, there are plenty of women) who support—whether actively or passively—the idea that blasphemers deserve to suffer punishment are not a fringe group. On the contrary, they represent the mainstream of contemporary Islam.

such intolerance has ... become the defining characteristic of Islam.

And the defining characteristic of the Western response? ...it is the utterly incoherent tendency to simultaneously defend free speech — and to condemn its results.
.....

It's awful!

How these waves of Muslim hysteria and violence make strange bedfellows. I and Bill O'Reilly (or Sam Harris and Bill O'Reilly) in unanimity regarding them. When otherwise we're partisan opposities. ;)
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 19, 2012 - 02:06pm PT
DONINI
I'm not arguing just trying to learn. These are verifiable letters that Benjamin Franklin and Thomas Jefferson wrote:
Ben wrote this letter to the Constitutional convention in Philadelphia June 28, 1787.

I have lived sir a long time and the longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth that God governs in the affairs of men. If a sparrow cannot fall to the ground unseen by Him is it probable an Empire could arise without his aid? I firmly believe this and I also believe that without his concurring aid we shall succeed in this political building no better than the builders of Babel.
The sparrow story and Babel are both from the bible.

Thomas Jefferson wrote this letter to Charles Thompson in 1816:

Concerning the Bible he writes, "a more beautiful or precious morsel of ethics I have never seen it is a document in proof that I am a "real Christian".That is to say a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus. "

Jefferson also wrote the bill establishing religious freedom and acted in 1786

Atheist I think not.
I can't wait to meet these men in Heaven!
Hope to see U there?

Jus Share'in
BB
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Sep 19, 2012 - 02:09pm PT
Santa is coming soon, Blue

getting all excited?

and the Easter Bunny!

sweet and safe dreams, little Prince
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Sep 19, 2012 - 03:02pm PT
Sam Harris on free solo rockclimbing...
As I have pointed out on many occasions, “religion” is a term like “sports”: Some sports are peaceful but spectacularly dangerous (“free solo” rock climbing, street luge); some are safer but synonymous with violence (boxing, mixed martial arts); and some entail little more exertion or risk of serious injury than standing in the shower (bowling, badminton).

Looks like he might've watched the 60 Minutes AH piece, lol.

To speak of “sports” as a generic activity makes it impossible to discuss what athletes actually do, or the physical attributes required to do it. What do all sports have in common, apart from breathing? Not much. The term “religion” is scarcely more useful.

http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/on-the-freedom-to-offend-an-imaginary-god

the problems of language, eh?

.....

btw, here's one for that Elk Creek defendant...

"Mormonism is the product of the plagiarisms and confabulations of an obvious con man, Joseph Smith, whose adventures among the credulous were consummated (in every sense) in the full, unsentimental glare of history. "

Tell me SH isn't speaking the truth here.

The point, however, is that I can say all these things about Mormonism, and disparage Joseph Smith to my heart’s content, without fearing that I will be murdered for it. Secular liberals ignore this distinction at every opportunity and to everyone’s peril.

Secular liberals, you know who you are, read this SH piece, get with the program.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 19, 2012 - 07:22pm PT
Corn
Those sites are only filled with more OPINIONS who cares!
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Sep 19, 2012 - 11:41pm PT
Concerning the Bible he writes, "a more beautiful or precious morsel of ethics I have never seen it is a document in proof that I am a "real Christian".That is to say a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus. "

you might want to look at what he was referring to...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jefferson_bible


He described it in a letter to John Adams dated 13 October 1813:

"In extracting the pure principles which he taught, we should have to strip off the artificial vestments in which they have been muffled by priests, who have travestied them into various forms, as instruments of riches and power to themselves. We must dismiss the Platonists and Plotinists, the Stagyrites and Gamalielites, the Eclectics, the Gnostics and Scholastics, their essences and emanations, their logos and demiurges, aeons and daemons, male and female, with a long train of … or, shall I say at once, of nonsense. We must reduce our volume to the simple evangelists, select, even from them, the very words only of Jesus, paring off the amphibologisms into which they have been led, by forgetting often, or not understanding, what had fallen from him, by giving their own misconceptions as his dicta, and expressing unintelligibly for others what they had not understood themselves. There will be found remaining the most sublime and benevolent code of morals which has ever been offered to man. I have performed this operation for my own use, by cutting verse by verse out of the printed book, and arranging the matter which is evidently his, and which is as easily distinguishable as diamonds in a dunghill. The result is an octavo of forty-six pages, of pure and unsophisticated doctrines.[5]"

you can read it here: http://americanhistory.si.edu/jeffersonbible/
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 20, 2012 - 12:09am PT
10-4 ED
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Sep 23, 2012 - 09:56pm PT
Not only do I like climbing and partying with atheists, I like philosophizing with them, too.

For example, if I said something like,
With the end of traditional theism, the purpose and future of religion are uncertain.

I'd be sure to get interesting thought-provoking responses. What a breath of fresh air in the wake of doctrines regarding the "blood of Christ" and such.

I like youtube, too. How empowering! Here it gives us Dr. Lawrence Krauss - yes an atheist - right here at supertopo - just released today:
[Click to View YouTube Video]

I wonder if he's ever rock climbed? :)

21st Century Gospel (Good News): Times are changing. Enlightenment is superceding superstitions in every corner.

A Better Life: 100 Atheists Speak Out on Joy and Meaning in a World Without God.

http://www.theatheistbook.com

Note Alex Honnold, Rock Climber, in there.

Where are you Alex? Post up!

I need your support around here. At least once an equinox, eh?
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Sep 23, 2012 - 10:06pm PT
"To me, the atheist life is a better life and it deserves to be celebrated. To see reality as it is, to explore mystery with an open mind, and to make the most of this life knowing there is no promise of any other. This is a richer, fuller and more meaningful existence than one clouded and limited by superstition and promises of an afterlife."

Hear, hear! (As HFCS raises a chilled glass of C Sauvig to his lips)

The finished product will be a hardcover, professionally printed, large coffee table book featuring all 100+ photos in full color.

I hope the photo of Alex is a still from 60 minutes, the one on the Sentinel, where's he's cracking his winsome smile and whistling, remember that spot? about right there, or something similar.

There are no atheists in free solo rock climbing.

Yeah, right, and Islam is a religion of peace.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 23, 2012 - 10:27pm PT
If U think that's interesting ?
U should read the book of psalms!

Don't think so small...

Jus Say'in
BB
WBraun

climber
Sep 23, 2012 - 10:48pm PT
The reason atheist failed is because they made a U turn at the cliff.

If they would have kept going and drove off the cliff they would have seen God .....
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Sep 25, 2012 - 11:48am PT
An impeccably erudite and keen argument against atheism:

"In the Darwinian perspective, order is not immanent in reality, but it is a self-affirming aspect of reality in so far as it is experienced by situated subjects. However, it is not so much reality that is self-affirming, but the creative order structuring reality which manifests itself to us. Being-whole, as opposed to being-one, underwrites our fundamental sense of locatedness and particularity in the universe. The valuation of order qua meaningful order, rather than order-in-itself, has been thoroughly objectified in the Darwinian worldview. This process of de-contextualization and reification of meaning has ultimately led to the establishment of ‘dis-order’ rather than ‘this-order’. As a result, Darwinian materialism confronts us with an eradication of meaning from the phenomenological experience of reality. Negative theology however suggests a revaluation of disorder as a necessary precondition of order, as that without which order could not be thought of in an orderly fashion. In that sense, dis-order dissolves into the manifestations of order transcending the materialist realm. Indeed, order becomes only transparent qua order in so far as it is situated against a background of chaos and meaninglessness. This binary opposition between order and dis-order, or between order and that which disrupts order, embodies a central paradox of Darwinian thinking. As Whitehead suggests, reality is not composed of disordered material substances, but as serially-ordered events that are experienced in a subjectively meaningful way. The question is not what structures order, but what structure is imposed on our transcendent conception of order. By narrowly focusing on the disorderly state of present-being, or the “incoherence of a primordial multiplicity”, as John Haught put it, Darwinian materialists lose sense of the ultimate order unfolding in the not-yet-being. Contrary to what Dawkins asserts, if we reframe our sense of locatedness of existence within a the space of radical contingency of spiritual destiny, then absolute order reemerges as an ontological possibility. The discourse of dis-order always already incorporates a creative moment that allows the self to transcend the context in which it finds itself, but also to find solace and responsiveness in an absolute Order which both engenders and withholds meaning. Creation is the condition of possibility of discourse which, in turn, evokes itself as presenting creation itself. Darwinian discourse is therefore just an emanation of the absolute discourse of dis-order, and not the other way around, as crude materialists such as Dawkins suggest."

http://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/2012/09/25/a-sokal-style-hoax-by-an-anti-religious-philosopher-2/

Remind you of anyone around here? :)
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 25, 2012 - 01:56pm PT
The guy admitted to writing things just to get a rise out of people. A fine example of a beautiful working body and mind working to bring disorder to the universe.

I propose God created this world with complete order in mind. Knowing that matter is spontaneous and thus causing disorder. When God placed Adam in the garden of Eden it was a perfect picture of how the environment and nature could work together in a orderly harmonious fashion. Only when lies, deception, betrayal and ego were introduced did the world realize disorder.

Jus Being Orderly
BB
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Sep 25, 2012 - 02:28pm PT
For the love of god... don't...

And god save the holy ghost!
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 25, 2012 - 03:38pm PT
My God ordered me to "kill" Satan with the message of the GOOD NEWS!!!!
This is the only "killing" you can do and get to heaven!
And not a prison sentence.

Jus Praz'in
BB
rectorsquid

climber
Lake Tahoe
Sep 25, 2012 - 04:24pm PT
Only when lies, deception, betrayal and ego were introduced did the world realize disorder.

Introduced? Didn't God create all? Why the f--- would God create disorder if that was not part of the plan?

And what a grand plan it would be if disorder were part of it. What if atheists were part of the plan?

The atheists made a turn at the cliff so that they could see it and look beyond. The theists kept going and saw God but saw nothing else of the universe they lived in for the cliff was the end to their world.

Dave
rectorsquid

climber
Lake Tahoe
Sep 25, 2012 - 04:35pm PT
The constitution guarantees free speech. I wonder why God would not guarantee, and more importantly, support, free thought.

I guess the idea is to build a country and a society where people have free speech and free expression but build a world where people are slaves; a world where no questioning thought will go unpunished.

No wonder so many people in this country and around the world support free speech; they know deep inside that there is nothing free at all about it. They just wait and expect a higher power to silence what they don't want to hear instead of using a government to do it.

The atheists are right to fear Christians because one day they will again tire of waiting for God to rid the world of the non-believers and try again to do it themselves. We would fear the Mormons too but there are not so many of them.

Dave
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 25, 2012 - 05:28pm PT
Dave,
I did say disorder was known about in God's grand plan.and so were atheist. God said there would be many who would not believe.
the story of God placing Adam on earth in a spiritual heavenly body. And for Adam siding with his own ego to go against gods word. Was instantly made aware that his body (matter) was "naked". This caused him shame so much he wanted to hide it. So he put on clothes.
This is the number one story of man's disorder.

Jus Chat'in
BB
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Sep 26, 2012 - 02:53am PT
God's an atheist!
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Sep 26, 2012 - 03:33am PT
God is a creationist and here's photographic evidence!!

Delhi Dog

climber
Good Question...
Sep 26, 2012 - 05:03am PT
Miss J,
First I find your story hard to believe, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt...
My reaction to the story, is in considering the source of who is talking. For one I'd guess the "Imam" in your story does not speak for all Muslim peoples just as I'm sure you do not speak for all those of Christian faith.

"but I understand that most Imams and clerics of
Islam have declared a holy jihad [Holy war] against the infidels of the
world and, that by killing an infidel, (which is a command to all Muslims)"

"...as I understand that most Imams..." there you go. Your understanding. Based on...your direct experience, your visits to Mosques, your watching of FOX news, what exactly do you base this statement on?

That you 'exposed' the the lunacy of his teaching in no ways speaks to the hundreds of thousands of Muslims world wide as well as those in the USA and their beliefs. Your implied conclusion that Islam is teaching hatred and the killing of "non- believers" because this guy says so is false. I know there are plenty of other Imams preaching tolerance and respect for all.

You are as guilty as he is in spreading miss-information. To have "everyone read this" would only further inflame the hatred and narrow mindedness behind so much of the world's current problems (and one which plenty of believers and non-believers find sickening).

You appear to be no more than an us-against-them robot.

cheers

edit: and for what it's worth you might want to do a little more research on what Jihad actually means to the majority of Muslims not just the extremist and fundamentalist...


slayton

Trad climber
Here and There
Sep 27, 2012 - 05:50am PT
I love "quite muslims". Just like I love "quite" christians. Quite now. You hush.

Edit: I hate it when others edit or just delete their posts that I have responded to. Especially when it leaves my response hanging, without any reference, innocuous, lifeless in the humor it should have enjoyed. Shame on you Miss J for denying me this pleasure.
Delhi Dog

climber
Good Question...
Sep 27, 2012 - 08:17am PT
Indeed ms j you are entitled to your opinion, and believe me when I say it's obvious.

When you wrote you were showing ( by posting that letter/ article) the "extreme side of the Muslim faith" not once did you indicate this. What you DID not indicate was a difference. You did not differentiate at all.

"I base my opinion on the 9/11 attack on America and the actions of those killing our people in the American Embassy over a movie on youtube. that one person made. Why didn't they go after the one person rather than killing just any American? OR better yet why kill anyone at all because someone doesn't agree with the "Muslim" indoctrine? The muslim has not gained a damn thing by killing innocent people. I am entitled to my opinion whether you agree with it or not and even if it offends someone, Just like the Atheist who have posted here. "

"The Muslim" not 'the fanatics',or 'the extremist', or the as#@&%es...
The jury is still out about 'your people' in the American embassy getting killed whether it was because of the movie or for other reasons.
I would suspect that they didn't ' go after' the one making the movie because ' they' aren't as easy of a target due to the simple fact that a half world separates the two.

And murder is murder no matter what race, color, religion, gender.
Why don't you refer to them as murderers? Because its too easy to call them muslims instead and it reinforces your us- against-them attitude...

Yes you are welcome to share your opinion, it tells so much about you as a person.
Especially when you write at the end;
"(FOR CHRIST'S SAKE....SEND THIS ON . ..)"...I think there is more to your 'sharing' than you're admitting...spreading fear and hatred, not very Christian like is it...

That religion plays such a big part in all this might be a very good reason for many to be an atheist.


Cheers

edit: and for what its worth...one of the biggest contributing factors of this us-vs-them mentality/worldview is the lack of education available. When your primary venue of education is through a religious lens, especially a very strict and fundamentalist one than your world view is going to be a religious one which is strict and fundamentalist. When those "teachers" are teaching and preaching religious ideologies in this manner it is no wonder there is such narrow-mindedness. Be it in Pakistan on Mississippi.
Poor or non-existent education is our real enemy, not Muslim or Christians or whatever.
Once again separate religion(s) and keep it out of schools. Teach critical thinking and empathy for others...
Okay, sorry end of rant.
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Sep 27, 2012 - 09:30am PT
Wbraun...so what you're saying is I as a woman should not have an opinion unless you give me one?


Just had to say what a horrific cu.nt Miss J is.


lol.



..and if I walked into a biker bar I dare say I would be more accepted than you.

Well, you've already roundly made the majority of Supertopo think you are a terrible person, why would a biker bar be any different? Derelicts, satanists, pot heads... yup, pretty sure they all would hate you.



edit - missed this

Jody, this ois pnly for you. You're an example to live by. Thanks for not giving up. Did you get my personal reply?


Jody = Miss J. We've been had.... lol
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Sep 27, 2012 - 09:46am PT
Us And Them.

It even starts out all church organy, so missJ can feel all warm and churchy and at home.

[Click to View YouTube Video]


This is not for you CoZmic!


There are 2.2 BILLION Muslims in the world. If they all had that kill all westerners attitude, it would be an ugly world indeed.
Delhi Dog

climber
Good Question...
Sep 27, 2012 - 10:01am PT
"Delhi Dog, you need to calm down and take a deep breathe and just accept writings as they are. Your anger is only affecting you. Your hatred is showing through and speaks volumes about who you are as a person.

We all just have to get over the insults don't we?

God bless all of you. "
---------------------

First, MsJ I have no hatred. I am not even angry.

Second, where is it in what you wrote (in reference to that article) did you separate your thoughts from that of the author's?
Was it from the beginning "Just sharing..." where did the article end?
You mean to tell me you have no opinion about that article yet you felt moved to share it here in an Atheist thread (which by the way YOU clicked on, no one forced you to)

Third, (And) why should I accept anything without questioning and challenging it especially something that is written?
Obviously you do, which might be your problem. YOU can accept writings as you find them but don't expect any intelligent person to.

If my response to you indicate who I am than I'm glad, though I think you're missing a whole lot along the way, especially when you bless all of us (for the record I am not an atheist) with your god.

edit:
Survival-kick ass!
WBraun

climber
Sep 27, 2012 - 10:02am PT
The atheist: what the eyes see and the ears hear, the mind believes.

The theist: What the soul sees is what the real truth is .......
Delhi Dog

climber
Good Question...
Sep 27, 2012 - 10:17am PT
I now finally understand the metaphor of sheep and the Shepard.

And Dingus that cracked me up.
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Sep 27, 2012 - 11:37am PT
http://www.supertopo.com/photos/0/87/130214_20453_L.jpg

Gdavis, do you feel better running your mouth and calling someones wife, Mother and daughter the vile names you've just written and even to add LOL to it. Other than showing your true colors and your lack of intelligence what have you accomplished? Really!!!!!!



sorry, you're also a fatty and a dum dum and a poop butt.


And that photo is something amazing.


Don't worry... no deletion necessary. I actually tried pretty damn hard to make SURE I offended you. It gets my rocks off, : / sick I know. Maybe it was my christian upbringing that never let me come to terms as a maturing adult with issues like sexuality and feminism?

lol Jody, you ain't foolin' nobody, but your High Sierra pictures are God Damn magnificent!








relax everybody.... these are just jokes. 10 deep breaths and a sip of coffee... there you go.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Sep 27, 2012 - 11:41am PT
Behind all of the name calling I see a real physical attraction between MissJ and GDavis. They could end up being ST's dream couple.
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Sep 27, 2012 - 11:42am PT
SORRY BRO I DON'T SWING THAT WAY


Daphne

Trad climber
Black Rock City
Sep 27, 2012 - 11:50am PT
^^^LOLOLOL

Delhi Dog

climber
Good Question...
Sep 27, 2012 - 12:08pm PT
MsJ, didn't YOU find it offensive?

WB-timely

cheers
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Sep 27, 2012 - 12:23pm PT
I think losing 50 lbs, loving life and giving 100% of my efforts day in and day out show my self worth. I think fostering healthy habits and giving respect where it is earned is one of the paramount disciplines long lost on my generation, and one I joyfully struggle with every day.


I find truth and greater understanding through patience, loving relationships, treating my body like a temple and attempting to keep up front the idea that I could easily have been somebody else.


All through adolescence I had been trying to apply tools I didn't believe in. I was told that if I prayed, good things would happen. That if I avoided all behavior deemed illicit by the bible (and more importantly, who was wielding it) I could make it to heaven. That those I disagreed with didn't just have a different perspective, but were inherently wrong and evil.


This wasn't told to me by evil men, but by regular people - like you and me, MissJ - regular people that never took the risk to see what life was like on the other side. Some time after high school I was tired living a lie (from the age of about 8 I realized that Noahs Ark was probably bullshit) and realized that the bible was just that - an interesting book written by some people a long time ago. Like a ton of other religious texts from all over the world.

Every minute a child under the age of 5 dies in starvation and squalor. Every minute. These children likely were born far away from anywhere that could give them the world of God, and by supposedly God's design we are to believe that they are going to Hell, simply by a matter of Geography. I should pray to God for my car to make it up the hill to the trailhead?

Is God lazy, a sociopath, or a construct of our inability to deal with the infinite parts of life and the universe we can't understand?


So no, it isn't abuse. It is frustration. It is lazy, unbridled frustation that adults, people who went to college and have children are living life largely unchanged from the last 10,000 years.


I'm not saying there is no greater power, nor am I saying that spirituality is something real and immeasurable. What I'm saying is the bible is bullsh#t, and I'm sick and tired of living in a world where I have to bend to laws written by pedophiles, rapists and genocidal maniacs before the wheel.





You won't change. The ruts are too deep in the mud. Maybe somebody that is trying to make sense of things can consider the greater science and philosophy an open mind can obtain. But shutting the world off... that is cancer.


GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Sep 27, 2012 - 12:28pm PT
6 of one, half dozen of the other.


If you don't connect your name with a face, I have to give you the respect you earn. Anonymous people can be bad motherf*#kers and I respect the hell out of a lot of them on supertopo. But if you are a penis, and anonymous, f*#k off.

My name AND face is here because I want to be accountable for what I say. Want an adult discussion? Tell me who you are and lets talk rock climbing, too, because it is awesome.


Greg
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Sep 27, 2012 - 12:45pm PT
I had a great life. Where did I vilify my parents? They gave me everything they could, and raised me the best way they knew.



And no, 8 years old isn't too old to figure out that you can't get every f*#king animal on a boat.

[Click to View YouTube Video]


That should be respected as well.

Doesn't work that way. You have to earn respect in the real world.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Sep 27, 2012 - 12:56pm PT
Captain Beefheart sez:

"SOMEBODY'S HAD TOO MUCH TO THINK!!"
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Sep 27, 2012 - 01:04pm PT
Too much time to think* ;D

How'd that go? Idle hands are work of the devil?

Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Sep 27, 2012 - 01:13pm PT
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Sep 27, 2012 - 01:15pm PT
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 27, 2012 - 03:56pm PT
CosmicJ And seing the multitudes, Jesus went up on a mountain and when he was seated his disciples came to him. Then he opened his mouth and taught them saying; Believers are the salt of the earth; but if the salt loses its flavor, how shall it be seasoned
It is then good for nothing but to be thrown out and trampled underfoot by men.
You are the light of the world. A city that is set on a hill cannot be hidden.
Nor do they light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on a lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house.
Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your father in heaven.
Mathew 5:13-16

Jus the book of Mathew is so Incredable! How it speaks to my every fiber. Body mind and soul
So much truth there, every letter!

Jus Shine'in
BB
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Sep 27, 2012 - 04:01pm PT
"Verily I say onto you, vote for Obama in 2012"

Matthew
21:74
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 27, 2012 - 04:13pm PT
I think Obama is more of a so called "Christian" then Romney is!
Obama just called himself a "Christian" again last night. I think he shows more "Christ like" virtues then Romney. Romney is a bona fide Mormon he believes more in Joseph Smith
than Jesus Christ.

Jus Vot'in
BB
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Sep 27, 2012 - 08:51pm PT
go-B

climber
2 Timothy 1:9-10 Psalm 119:83
Sep 27, 2012 - 08:56pm PT
I don't!
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Sep 27, 2012 - 08:58pm PT
"Verily I say onto you, vote for Obama in 2012"

Matthew
21:74


that aint what it says in the book of moman!
Delhi Dog

climber
Good Question...
Sep 27, 2012 - 09:30pm PT
For MsJ

http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2012/09/27/photo-of-woman-with-facial-hair-leads-to-conversation-understanding/?hpt=hp_c2
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Sep 27, 2012 - 10:17pm PT
I think Obama is more of a so called "Christian" then Romney is!
Obama just called himself a "Christian" again last night. I think he shows more "Christ like" virtues then Romney. Romney is a bona fide Mormon he believes more in Joseph Smith
than Jesus Christ.


Jus Vot'in


I believe you're doing more than voting, sir...you're casting false stereotypes.

Mormons do not "believe more in Joseph Smith than Jesus Christ." I'm optimistic that you know that.

I hate it when anger or exasperation impels me to act a pedestrian version of myself...launching off the mark, hackneyed archetype relating to other groups of people. I nourish hope that you only rarely belly-flop into similar practice, BLUEBLOCR.

Whomever Mr Romney believes first, Christ or the man in the mirror, I'll refrain from speculating. But I'm confident Joseph Smith is down the list.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Sep 27, 2012 - 10:25pm PT
Blue,

you should stick to telling people the earth is 6000 years old and humans had dinosaurs for pets

you clearly don't know anything about comparative world religions

Mormons ARE Christians you idiot, and they "believe" in Jesus Christ as much as any other Christian does

no wonder you failed high school biology, your head was counting angels on pins


edit:

just "educating" la la la
Delhi Dog

climber
Good Question...
Sep 27, 2012 - 11:40pm PT
MsJ, I was hoping you'd feel that way.

Cheers
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 28, 2012 - 02:30pm PT
Jennie,
Thanks for sharing! your probably a Mormon right?
I am not sitting in judgment of the LDS or other organized religions. Just being discerning. I to was baptized a Mormon and being involved in the church for nearly 2 years. I recognized that I was being taught more on the book of Mormon and the story of Joseph Smith. With only tidbits of the true Bible and Jesus thrown in here and there. I feel like a lot of Mormons get caught up in their own story rather then the story of Jesus. Jesus is the only name and the only way to God. When Jesus declared that He is the Word and before the foundations of earth were laid, the Word was established. True? So can you really believe God needed Joseph Smith to come along some 1800 years later to add to His Word?
The book of Mormon, pearl of great price,doctrine of covenants. These are just more laws written by man. The main message of Jesus was to put away the laws because no man through works can enter the Kingdom. Except through Him and His Grace! so I believe that all these latter day religions A.D. Mormon Catholic Muslim Seventh-day Adventist Luthern etc. are all stereotypes of the True Church. They all have their so-called "prophets" adding to the Word of God as if Jesus didn't get it all right the first time.
Please don't get me wrong I love the Mormons. I think they are a wonderful example of humility and family virtues. But seriously the DOC the laws of what you can can't eat drink and wear. Along with all the theoracy and symbolism. Baptism of the dead. And the worst is that if you're not baptized in the Mormon lineage your baptism isn't true and you can't be saved. This is on par with the Muslims. I know now in my spirit you don't need an extra book of laws to gain access to God you only need to know Jesus and His Word!
This is my testimony that Jesus is the christ and the only true savior
Amen
Jus My Opinio'in
BB
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Sep 29, 2012 - 07:51am PT
Thanks for your reply, BLUEBLOCR.

May I offer a few comments on your post...

.And the worst is that if you're not baptized in the Mormon lineage your baptism isn't true and you can't be saved. This is on par with the Muslims.


Not really accurate...Mormon doctrine asserts that ALL mankind are saved from physical death and preserved in one of the "three Kingdoms of Heaven" ...regardless of baptism, faith or good works. Baptism doesn't save...it's ordained as a physical manifestation of our inner commitment to follow Christ...

The main message of Jesus was to put away the laws because no man through works can enter the Kingdom.


Christ did not annul the law...He nullified animal sacrifice and the ceremonial feasts, washings and observances demanded by Mosaic Law.

Eternal laws such as the Ten Commandments, parents teaching children, caring for the poor, and other righteous principles remain in effect as well as criminal and civil law.

No one is exalted by good works alone. But the de-emphasis of good works by many Christian sects is tragic...especially in a grief stricken world so obviously in need of kindness and benevolence.

I'm personally inspiredby the mormon emphasis on doing good works. It heartens me to transcend my negligent and inconsiderate self-ness and attempt worthy actions...rather than linger under my little toadstool and allege that I'm "saved" while the world destructs.

Professing or making a pretense at Christian endeavor doesn't elevate me above other people. But certainly Christian action exalts me above my own self-centered, self concerned, self seeking nature...

If the LDS sphere of belief is not for you...Amen and so be it, Blue...we all believe our own path is best...but there are many paths to the same mountain...

bc

climber
Prescott, AZ
Sep 29, 2012 - 01:12pm PT
Studly

Trad climber
WA
Sep 29, 2012 - 01:15pm PT
You won't find this in the Bible because Jesus actually said:
"Seek not the law in your scriptures, for the law is life, whereas the scripture is dead. I tell you truly, Moses received not his laws from God in writing, but through the living word. The law is living word of living God to living prophets for living men. In everything that is life is the law written. You find it in the grass, in the tree, in the river, in the mountain, in the birds of heaven, in the fishes of the sea; but seek it chiefly in yourselves. For I tell you truly, all living things are nearer to God than the scripture which is without life. God so made life and all living things that they might by the everlasting word teach the laws of the true God to man. God wrote not the laws in the pages of books, but in your heart and in your spirit. They are in your breath, your blood, your bone; in your flesh, your bowels, your eyes, your ears, and in every little part of your body. They are present in the air, in the water, in the earth, in the plants, in the sunbeams, in the depths and in the heights. They all speak to you that you may understand the tongue and the will of the living God. But you shut your eyes that you may not see, and you shut your ears that you may not hear. I tell you truly, that the scripture is the work of man, but life and all its hosts are the work of our God. Wherefore do you not listen to the words of God which are written in His works? And wherefore do you study the dead scriptures which are the work of the hands of men?"

"And now I speak to you in the living tongue of the living God, through the holy spirit of our Heavenly Father. There is none yet among you that can understand all this of which I speak. He who expounds to you the scriptures speaks to you in a dead tongue of dead men, through his diseased and mortal body. Him, therefore, can all men understand, for all men are diseased and all are in death. No one sees the light of life. Blind man leads blind on the dark paths of sins, diseases and sufferings; and at the last all fall into the pit of death.

"I am sent to you by the Father, that I may make the light of life to shine before you. The light lightens itself and the darkness, but the darkness knows only itself, and knows not the light. I have still many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them yet. For your eyes are used to the darkness, and the full light of the Heavenly Father would make you blind. Therefore, you cannot yet understand that which I speak to you concerning the Heavenly Father who sent me to you. Follow, therefore, first, only the laws of your Earthly Mother, of which I have told you.

Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
Sep 29, 2012 - 01:30pm PT
I thought that this thread was for SuperTopo atheists to tell their story and make a statement of their lack of blind faith?

So to you ignorant religious f*#ks, unless you want me to go back to the Christian thread and start making fun of the god you haven't seen in 2,000 years, then go away.

BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 29, 2012 - 04:07pm PT
Studly
That's pretty cool where did you come across that?


Ledge rat
That's the first positive thing I've heard you say.
Have a nice day to you too!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Jus Reply'in
BB
Studly

Trad climber
WA
Oct 5, 2012 - 12:12am PT
hey Blueblockr and Sierra Ledge Rat, Peace be with you my friends!
I am quoting from the Essene Gospel of Peace, the contents of which represents only about a third of the complete manuscripts which exist in Aramaic in the Secret Archives of the Vatican and in old Slavonic in the Royal Archives of the Habsburg (now the property of the Austrian Government).

We owe existence of these two versions to the Nestorian priests who, under pressure of the advancing hordes of Genghis Khan, were forces to flee from the East towards the West, bearing all their ancient scriptures and ikons with them.

The ancient Aramaic texts date from the 3rd century after Christ, while the old Slavonic version is a literal translation of the former. Exactly how the texts traveled from Palestine to the interior of Asia into the hands of the Nestorian priests, archeologists are not yet able to reconstruct for us.

"And the truth shall bear witness of itself.
http://stevespickard.tripod.com/uhc/essene.htm
WBraun

climber
Oct 5, 2012 - 12:40am PT
So that's why you do it, eh.

For a reward ......
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Oct 5, 2012 - 12:44am PT
who knew the light at the end of the tunnel was a carrot on a stick?
splitter

Trad climber
Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
Oct 5, 2012 - 01:02am PT
It (good works) is done out of love for mankind (& for love of God/He loves mankind, gave His only begotten son for men) not for salvation or for a reward.

edit: good works are not "de-emphasis[ed]". on the contrary, they are why we are here. "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." they are just not relied upon/dependant for eternal salvation.
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Oct 5, 2012 - 01:08am PT
Feeling good is a "reward".


Feeling good can be achieved by dopamine release in the brain, a chemical process that can happen after an intense workout, sex or watching cartoons.

Feeling like a decent human being is a "reward".
The Ego can be reconstructed many ways, doubtfully as a reward... rather the unique way in which our neurons fire and record information.

Knowing that someone I care about is happier or safer is a "reward".

Oxytocin is another chemical our brain releases when around children or loved ones to keep us from harming them, thus our species could develop communities and raise our rather frail (by the animal kingdom) babies without eating them.


So maybe not rewards, all those ;D
WBraun

climber
Oct 5, 2012 - 01:13am PT
So violence is not good works?

So violence is not kindness?
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Oct 5, 2012 - 01:16am PT
True, because all those chemicals are biological constructs to allow our genetics to pass on and reward us!
WBraun

climber
Oct 5, 2012 - 01:20am PT
So you're all selfish do gooders?

Ya all do sh!t so ya can feel good ultimately for yourselves.

Do good ers .....
splitter

Trad climber
Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
Oct 5, 2012 - 01:27am PT
edit: Oops, posted on wrong thread! lol

deleted it and posted on the "cat" thread!

I'll just leave this here since it is "800" cuz nobody likes to post the last post before it turns over, eh?
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Oct 5, 2012 - 02:40am PT
DoGooders

Take heed that you do not do your charitable deeds before men, to be seen by them. Otherwise you have no reward from your father in heaven. Therefore when you do a charitable deed do not sound a trumpet before you as the Hypocritiesdo in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory from men. Assuredly I say to you they have their reward. But when you do a charitable deed do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, that your charitable deed may be in secret and your father who sees in secret will Himself reward you openly. Teachings by Jesus

Jus Help'in
BB
splitter

Trad climber
Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
Oct 5, 2012 - 04:57am PT
Sttzo - the point is to not do good works to solely impress men/people (make yourself look good, or for personal gain or ego)). It would be very self indulgent and defeat the purpose, as far as a spiritual/ Christian perspective is concerned. That is what JC is refering to in Blueblocr's quote/paraphrase!

edit: Delhi Dog - Sorry, but, i have been staying away, just got pulled into answering some questions directed toward "xtians" from your buds this evening! Otherwise, I haven't posted here in about 30 days! plus, people are arriving at, or deriving a lot of false assumptions, so i was attempting to shed some light on them, and in the process answera few of the specific questions that you guys came up with that no one responded to. but, perhaps they are convenient (false assumptions) for you regardless, since ya have already determined that it is all bogus anyway, right? so what difference does it make if lies are being spread, eh? but i suspect others (open minded searchers) are reading both threads, so some of us "xtians" are compelled to speak up when we note a discrepency! BUT, that could prollie be addressed through our thread, eh? I have already, personally, suggested that we "xtians" do just that (qoute and respond to what is said here on the I Like The Christian Life (or whatever Spider Sabitch's thread is called)...good idea, eh? i believe so, especially since the OP/Khanom explecitely expressed a desire for us to "hold your reaction, criticize on other threads"! I do believe we should respect that and show a little restraint. but wudevah, bro! since there are some hard headed types on both sides. lata...
Delhi Dog

climber
Good Question...
Oct 5, 2012 - 05:01am PT
I'm still trying to figure out what all these religious folks are doing on the atheist thread. Anyone jump ship yet?
mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Oct 5, 2012 - 12:19pm PT
"God, are you listening? It's me, Albert."

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/10/02/us-einstein-letter-idUSBRE89117820121002

Rats be still aboard, Capn'n. Arrgh.... .. cough, cough... ..sar.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Oct 5, 2012 - 02:42pm PT
Seven years in Tibet

My favorite quote; "Heinrich, this is the major difference between the Tibetan culture and your culture. While you admire the man who pushes his way to the top in any walk of life.
Tibetans admire the man who abandons his ego. ". This is sweet nectar!

Spending millions of dollars to own someone else's handwriting is so Neanderthal. a definite attempt to try and showcase one's ego. What's he gonna to do dance around with it and sing look what I got Einstein's autograph? Stupid! I hope the Vatican buys it and stores away in the vault!
What's the big deal about Einstein anyway? He didn't create or invent anything. He just theorized on other people's discoveries. Sure he was a brainiac with numbers. But he obviously didn't know his own soul.

What's the psyche of people who buy autographed sports memorabilia for large amounts of money? Does this let them feel close to the stars achievements? Or just bowing down to their idols? Oh lucky me I just got Kobes autographed jersey for 500 bucks. Aren't I cool!
SOOOO QUEER!
* not the homosexual type of queer*
Jus Queev'in
BB
rectorsquid

climber
Lake Tahoe
Oct 5, 2012 - 03:10pm PT
But he obviously didn't know his own soul.

It is disgusting how religious types act like they know what only God would know. To talk about abandoning one's ego and they claim to know if another man knows his own soul? It is pathetic.

To abandon ones ego is to abandon self-righteousness which is something that I have never seen a believer do. I have yet to see someone humble enough to say that they believe in God but are unsure in that belief because they they accept that they have weakness and could be wrong about it.

I might be wrong about my belief. Are you believers humble enough to say the same?

Dave
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Oct 5, 2012 - 03:50pm PT
Thanks guys
I am not a homophobe. I too am guilty of Homo acts. I didnt say "gay" like in your video. to me gay means merry joyful happy not homosexual the Webster's definition of queer;
Strange,unusual, or out of alignment. Gimme a break!

In no way am I trying to be self righteous!! Every day I humble myself before the Lord.
And he props me up. Today He has called me to speak boldly in the world. I am merely pointing out misgiveings that I notice. And exposing the lies.
By no means am I trying to ridicule anyone just asking you to think...

Hey it was Einstein that said he didn't believe in his soul.

Jus apollogiz'in
BB
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Oct 5, 2012 - 06:18pm PT
Feeling good is a "reward". Feeling like a decent human being is a "reward". Knowing that someone I care about is happier or safer is a "reward".

Check out recent neuroscience research on the internal payoff of altruism.

Ah, yes, . . . payoffs. We need to get all these things measured and balanced out in an equation so that we can figure out what's right and what's wrong. I didn't know that neuroscience had become the new (or replacement field) for the field of ethics. Great. Things will be so much easier now. No more ambiguity. No more struggling over meaning. No more uncertainty.

Again (and again, again, again), this is rationality run amok. Not everything fits into a mental rational model. There is no rationality to art, to ethics, or really to anything that appears in front of you constantly.

Forget about virtue, forget about what a god might say, forget about rewards, forget about feeling good, forget about what you think or what you've been told is right and what is wrong. Just try to be more in harmony with the universe. There's no ethics in putting a socket to a bolt and loosening it or tightening it. It's just what is appropriate. To put it another way, the better you understand reality for what it is (it's everything, it's non-dual, it's indescribable, it's infinite, it has no middle, etc.), the more you will not be able to help yourself being one with it. When you oppose it (seeing "things" as objects, for example), that's when you start to make unskillful distinctions that only separate you from IT.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Oct 5, 2012 - 09:25pm PT
Just try to be more in harmony with the universe.
how strange that phrase sounds to me... how can one be anything but in harmony with the universe? from my point of view, we are just a part of the universe... one and the same...

Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Oct 5, 2012 - 09:35pm PT
Have astrophysicists agreed on a determinate sum of time for a neutron star (1.5 sun's mass) too cool to the ambient temperature of the universe, Dr Ed ?

(Not intended as a debating point...just curious)
jstan

climber
Oct 5, 2012 - 09:43pm PT
What choice available to a human, would be out of harmony with the universe?

In this universe a particle gets from point A to point B by taking all possible paths.

In such, what the hell is harmony?
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Oct 5, 2012 - 09:45pm PT
not sure what your question is Jennie... is the question:

how long does it take for a neutron star to cool to the "ambient" temperature of the universe?

MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Oct 5, 2012 - 09:51pm PT
how can one be anything but in harmony with the universe? from my point of view, we are just a part of the universe... one and the same...

Yes. But not exactly. Not a part, but one and the same (your words--and great words at that).

As the conversation wandered into issues of what is right and wrong, etc., evaluations and ethics arose. This is good, that is bad, this is correct, that is incorrect, Obama is right, Romney is wrong, helping old women across the streets is good, murdering 7 million Jews is bad, yada yada. The evaluations are meaningful as speech acts, but they stand for nothing . . . . just like particles, gravity, and centrifugal force. They are terms that purportedly reference reality as speech acts, but the objects referenced do not independently exist. They are in the universe but they refer to nothing if they refer to objects in the universe.

It's a very tricky thing trying to say anything at all. About the only thing one can say without contradiction is IT and I AM. If you hold those two notions up simultaneously, you'd perhaps see that "I AM . . . IT."
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Oct 5, 2012 - 09:55pm PT
Yes...I couldn't find anything definitive on the web or astronomy texts...just the span of time for white dwarfs to cool.

Thought you might know...if there is no agreement in the scientific community, we ccould let the question ride...

Thanks, Ed.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Oct 5, 2012 - 10:07pm PT
They are in the universe but they refer to nothing if they refer to objects in the universe.

strange to make that distinction... the words are a part of the universe, too, and the ideas expressed by those words, how could they be different?

Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Oct 5, 2012 - 10:20pm PT
neutron stars -
to "cool" there has to be some energy loss mechanism, and we see such a thing in the "spin-down" of pulsars, which radiate the energy into electromagnetic waves...

but the nature of a neutron star is that the "fermi repulsion" of the neutrons prevents the star from collapsing, that is, since two fermions (and neutrons are fermions) cannot occupy the same state, the effective pressure that prevents that maintains the neutron start in hydrostatic equilibrium.

in this simple model, the neutron star hangs around forever, losing energy very slowly...

but we don't know the equation-of-state of neutron matter, and we also don't know all the possible collective modes that can occur, and little about the quark-gluon equation of state (in bulk) which might be important in the interior of the neutron star.

so there is a lack of understanding of this sort of material which leads to uncertainty in the description of the evolution of neutron stars.

there is progress in nuclear physics in understanding infinite neutron matter, and in relativistic heavy ion physics in understanding the phase transition from "hadron gas" (which are the neutrons in this case) and the "quark-gluon" phases... many experiments, at RHIC, at LHC at GSI will be probing around and connecting with lattice Quantum Chromodynamics (lQCD) and we expect to learn much more of relevance to neutron stars

Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Oct 5, 2012 - 10:31pm PT
Thanks, Ed. I'd read white dwarfs may take over a trillion years to conduct heat away and cool.

Much of this is over my head...I read about the interior of a neutron star being in a superfluid state and allowing heat to be released to the crust by convection which might cool the star faster than expected...

Again, just curious about the numbers...a trillion years for a white dwarf to cool is mind-boggling and I wondered about neutron stars.

Thanks for your post !
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Oct 8, 2012 - 03:15pm PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]

Norwegian

Trad climber
Placerville, California
Oct 8, 2012 - 03:20pm PT
when you are of the christian faith,
of which i have ingested,

you patiently await the now,
always live in the "might be,"
and run niley-wiley from reality.

when you don the athiest crown,
forever is only like two-nights long,
with the right girl.
splitter

Trad climber
Cali Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
Oct 8, 2012 - 04:56pm PT
Yo, listen up ya'll, Billy D has sumpthin' applicable to say...
[Click to View YouTube Video]
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Oct 8, 2012 - 06:51pm PT
My Reality.

My reality is willy-nilly.
Having resonance with my creator.
I am in tune with the waves of control.
Feeling the rock is solid as my tooth.
My body is contoured to be a sacrifice for gain.
My mind is a flutter with the prescribed pain.
My spirit rockets on the hopes of the proposal of fame.
But my ambitions could be quenched by the verdict of shame.
Whilst my heart is playing another game.
My soul warns me that we are all the same.
I give thanks to the Lord, on a job well done.
And ask for strength, to keep hang'in on.
As he wraps his arms, around me and sez
I Love U Son

Jus Ryhm'in
BB
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Oct 8, 2012 - 07:55pm PT
^^^^^^
This is what being butt-hurt looks like.
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Oct 8, 2012 - 09:54pm PT
Great. Just which research (on rewards neurobiologically) are you referring to? If it's work like Kahneman & Tversky's (and behavioral psychologists like Slovac and Thaler), it's good research.

But because people appear to make decisions based upon heuristics, biases, or rewards does not mean that they should or that they cannot help but do so.

So which is your argument? That people do and they should? That people do and cannot help but do so? That people do and should not?

If you say that they do and cannot help themselves, then you have a problem with accountability and free will. If they do and should, then you need to go further in a statement about why they should (beyond the typical, "it's evolution"). If they do and should not, then you need to be clearer about what's important and why it's important.

Your turn.

EDIT: I'm assuming that reality transcends any culture.
Delhi Dog

climber
Good Question...
Oct 8, 2012 - 10:01pm PT
splitter-cool gotcha

For me I suppose the point in all this (whichever thread one chooses along these lines) is not whether one set of beliefs is right or wrong. The point is what you believe in, because your beliefs, whether right or wrong, change your world...


MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Oct 8, 2012 - 11:15pm PT
The point is what you believe in, because your beliefs, whether right or wrong, change your world...

Well, I guess that is surely true, but it seems to me that what's going on here is not that people have different beliefs but that certain beliefs ARE wrong, incorrect, biased, ignorant. . . .

What gets highlighted for me is not which beliefs are X, but the persistent and unyielding need criticize and prioritize beliefs. Put another way, what's interesting is not the flavor of beliefs but their apparent over-arching importance. Why don't we feel so strongly about colors, hobbies, jobs, fields of study, height, etc.? The War of Beliefs is a War of Ideologies. Really? We are willing to spew venom and bile over ideologies? Capitalism vs. Socialism? Islam vs Christianity? Democracy versus Monarchy? These are Just Ideas, and as such are really nothing at all. It's not like some large, slimy, ugly cockroach-looking vermin, called socialized medical care, is pounding through my front door in order to feast on me and my wife tonight. (A good story though for a Swim cartoon or a Monty Python episode.)

Come on. It's really a little nuts, isn't it?

It's not that we have beliefs but that we love them so. We need them. Without them, we'd be . . . .
splitter

Trad climber
Cali Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
Oct 9, 2012 - 12:02am PT
Delhi Dog - The point is what you believe in, because your beliefs, whether right or wrong, change your world...
So true!

edit: BTW, you may recall the time you checked me (thadood) on my over exuberance in hearing of OBL death. It caused me to pause, ponder and consider all the negative things I had said and felt. And you were right, I was out of line to some degree. You sent me a PM apologizing, and I believe I sent you one back saying something to the effect that there was no rejoicing in heaven over his death, and I was wrong to be doing exactly the opposite here on earth. In fact, I believe it was a very sad moment in heaven, because he was once a little boy, just like us at one time. God loved him then, and he never stopped loving him, even though something went terribly wrong, imo! So, my "point" is, communication is what this is all about. It may not seem like it by reading some of these posts, but every once in a while something clicks, eh? Thanks again DD!!
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Oct 9, 2012 - 02:12am PT
I think all of us inherit belief systems that we remain unaware of most of our life, particularly if they were tolerant and abstract. I would hope however, that we would be willing to alter these beliefs and those we formed on our own in the face of new experiences and evidence. I certainly strive to do that.

One of the best ways to come to understand what one's basic belief structure, and a fun way too, is to live in a very different culture and learn a language that is totally unrelated to one's mother tongue. We used to be told as graduate students that it was not a bad idea to have some psychoanalysis under one's belt before doing fieldwork in another culture. Otherwise, our research subjects would bring about self analysis anyway.

For the very early childhood programming, I know of no other method as effective as meditation.

Religion is adopting a particular structure for one's understanding of the world. Science is similar in most ways, although it can be subject to testing by anyone. Spirituality, is a form of internal travel whereby the outcome is unknown ahead of time.

slayton

Trad climber
Here and There
Oct 9, 2012 - 02:26am PT
As the conversation wandered into issues of what is right and wrong, etc., evaluations and ethics arose. This is good, that is bad, this is correct, that is incorrect, Obama is right, Romney is wrong, helping old women across the streets is good, murdering 7 million Jews is bad, yada yada. The evaluations are meaningful as speech acts, but they stand for nothing . . . . just like particles, gravity, and centrifugal force. They are terms that purportedly reference reality as speech acts, but the objects referenced do not independently exist. They are in the universe but they refer to nothing if they refer to objects in the universe.

I don't agree that these "evaluations are meaningful as speech acts, but they stand for nothing. .. " The universe is ONE and we and everything in it are a part of that ONE. But we are still parts, living, breathing, thinking, feeling parts. We all together, with everything else in this cosmic soup, make up the ONE. But we are still individuals. The fact that we are part of something bigger than ourselves doesn't negate the fact that if you throw a rock and it hits me in the head (an analogy I've made before)I know that it's going to hurt before it happens, as it happens, and after it's still going to hurt and it will only reinforce the reality, my reality, that if I get hit in the head with a rock in the future it will hurt. That is reality.

It seems like some take thoughts, ideas, and words especially, and parse them in an attempt to understand the big picture and make sense of what "reality" is and in that attempt walk toward a cliff and fall off claiming that there is no "reality". I assure you, it really does hurt if a rock hits me in the head.

Why don't we feel so strongly about colors, hobbies, jobs, fields of study, height, etc.? The War of Beliefs is a War of Ideologies. Really? We are willing to spew venom and bile over ideologies? Capitalism vs. Socialism? Islam vs Christianity? Democracy versus Monarchy? These are Just Ideas, and as such are really nothing at all. It's not like some large, slimy, ugly cockroach-looking vermin, called socialized medical care, is pounding through my front door in order to feast on me and my wife tonight. (A good story though for a Swim cartoon or a Monty Python episode.)

These are all just ideas, I agree. But unlike colors, heights or hobbies (jobs and fields of study do engender some strong reaction as evidenced by posts on this forum), much of the examples you gave above DO have direct implications on individuals living with or under them. They are just "ideas" on the surface but they have far reaching consequences in their implementation. That, I think, is why there is a reaction to those vs. color etc.

As for your example of socialized medical care (or whatever else might serve) if it became more than an "idea" and was implemented and in that implementation caused you and your wife to fork over say 90% of your income would it then become more than an "idea". Would it cause a reaction of "good" or "bad" in you or for you?

Sean
Delhi Dog

climber
Good Question...
Oct 9, 2012 - 04:53am PT
I've enjoyed reading and digesting the last 5 or so post, thanks...gives me food for thought.
Cheers
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Oct 9, 2012 - 11:22am PT
Spirituality, is a form of internal travel whereby the outcome is unknown ahead of time.

spirituality: state or condition of spirit

spirit: the net total functionality of the living organism

Only religions and their nonsense makes a mess of these terms. "Ghostly" spirit is misconception if not superstition. There is no "ghost in the machine." Which is the implication (even the claim) of modern science.

When you write like this, you fail to distinguish yourself from the blues or splitters or other illusiondwellers. Or MikeL or even this guy...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/10/08/charlie-fuqua-arkansas-candidate-death-penalty-rebellious-children_n_1948490.html

At the end of our lives, we die. Our carnate spirit dies. Our being dies. Our conscious spirit (or consciousness) dies. Just deal with it. Why not just deal with it. For reality sake.

.....

In this recent Sam Harris piece, he addresses death, the power of now, aspects of "consciousness," also the importance of a change of attitude (not just of knowledge) in one's practice of living.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ITTxTCz4Ums

He is spot on.

.....

Now one mental faculty we have of course is our imagination if not our train of thought (power of thinking). One could certainly employ this power as "a form of internal travel" - no woo-woo required either. Indeed, we climbers often do just this before embarking on a climbing trip, envisioning and tracing out in our minds approaches, pitches, various options, strategies, etc. And some times "the outcome" is accurately predicted, other not.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Oct 9, 2012 - 01:20pm PT
Fructose
I truly hope one day you will experience the Holy Ghost. It is supernaturally life changing
It is definitive proof for me that God hears prayers.
I think being spiritual is being conscience of your spirit. And living your life being aware of the spirits around you. All of our interactions with each other are very important so much that they're being recorded. Do you think an ominous God creator of the universe would be interested in our talk of climbing or the stock exchange? His concern is the welfare of our spirit
I live with a wonderful peace of mind knowing that I am guaranteed everlasting life. For I have great respect for everyone and everything around me. because there's many I will know forever. So I till, plant seeds, fertilize and waterTo provide for an everlasting future.

Jus Water'in
BB
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Oct 9, 2012 - 01:40pm PT
First fructose invents his own definitions and then feels the need to compare people who have a different interpretation to fanatics of various sorts, portraying many different views as equivalent. There must be a special vocabulary term for someone who can never see subtleties or shades of gray and feels the need to personally attack those who don't agree. To me this seems the essence of fundamentalism which he says he abhors. A perfect example in my view of someone who hasn't yet overcome childhood programming.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Oct 9, 2012 - 01:42pm PT
Blue,

It would be futile to ask you to post to the Christian or religious thread, huh? and to leave this one to the irreligious, post-religious?

.....

Jan, the paranormalist,

Your post is laughable.

So I would ask you the same question. There are paranormalist / supernaturalist threads at the taco, why not post to those?
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Oct 9, 2012 - 01:56pm PT
Word, Dr. F.


"We have barely emerged from centuries of barbarism. It is not a surprise that there are shocking inequities in this world. It is hard work to climb down out of the trees, walk upright, and build a viable global civilization when you start with technology that's made of rocks and sticks and fur. This is a project and progress is difficult."

-Sam Harris



There must be a special vocabulary term for someone who...

...who declares far and wide she's looked "under the hood" of "the machinery of life" from all angles again and again and again - and yet still after all that just doesn't get it - not in the fundamentals nor the subtleties.
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Oct 9, 2012 - 02:16pm PT
if you guys go back and read the contributions on this page, most of us were talking about conditioning and biases in all aspects of life. Religion was not the focus. Yet because you have preconceived ideas of other's positions, you then jump to the attack. You're tilting at windmills. A good case in point is assuming that meditation and internal journeys have to involve the supernatural.



BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Oct 9, 2012 - 02:26pm PT
Yeah well I was an atheist for almost 40 years!
I've been around the block a few times
Probably on the lower side of town from where you live
Hard knocks, we all get them
It just became blatant to me that there had to be more to life
So I went seeking. Maybe you're the one still living under your parents wings.
A product of society.
Maybe sitting there in your La-Z-Boy. In your fancy house. And your pimp Mobile
And your 9 to 5 with pension. You're comfortable and feel like you have life by the tail.
But let me tell you sir. YER GONNA DIE!!
We'll see how comfortable you are then

Jus Recline'in
BB
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Oct 9, 2012 - 02:52pm PT
That's the saddest propaganda I've ever witnessed
I am praying for you

Jus Pray'in
BB
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Oct 9, 2012 - 04:22pm PT
Stzzo

I read the short summary you pointed to in Forbes. Thanks. (I tried to get access to the actual article in Nature Neuroscience, but I can't find it in the university's library. Forbes must have flubbed the citation.)

About research studies. One, when people use words like maybe, perhaps, could be, and make reference to correlations or associations, they are--as Werner would say--mentally speculating. That's ok by me, but let's be careful about saying what we know. Two, with only associations (i) causality is confounded, and (ii) it is doubtful that any model can be drawn. We simply don't know which variables to use or how to arrange them or what weights to assign.

My argument is that they they choose [an action] because they want what comes from it. Whether the reward is dopamine, oxytocin, or a satisfaction that they're treating the other as they would like to be treated, they are doing it because they get something from it.

Ok. Where does "the event" happen? In the physics of transferred charges among neurons? Chemically, when dopamine is produced or found? When a confabulation of neurons in a neural net reach critical mass and generates a pattern that is recognized or portrays an interpretation of "satisfaction?" When the ego-self chooses to reach for an altruistic goal rather than forego it self-interestedly? When the result is achieved (many of the same processes)? When the situation was formed (by God, for all I know) and the individual found him or herself in the situation? I mean, it's potentially a very long line of events, scenarios, variables, and processes.

(We can disagree about reality and culture. People around me who make physical scientific (e.g., biochemical) claims about the world think there is only one to talk about.)
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Oct 9, 2012 - 04:39pm PT
slayton

The universe is ONE and we and everything in it are a part of that ONE.

Not a part. There are no parts of One. How could there be? I mean, really, think about it. How can any single object have parts? If you had a car, and I deleted one piece at a time, at what point would there no longer be a car for you? Are some parts the essence of car more than others? If so, then they are the car and the others are superfluous? (This is an old but important riddle about emptiness. There's no answer to it, but it shows how no thing can be itself independently. Everything is the result of causes and conditions which are forever changing. IT's a dance.)

But I get your point. Really I do. Some things DO seem more important than others because they seem to give rise to pain and suffering more than others. I just got out of the hospital for major surgery a few days ago, and I Grok Pain, brother. It seems as real to me as anything could. But in my heart (not my head), I think it's just something that I'm paying attention to--just an idea, a perception, a passing fancy, a feeling, . . . . I think it's just something that I'm making much ado about. I'm tempted to say it's nothing.

As for forking over 90% of my income due to an idea, then I might look at it in the same way. Given the recent result of my surgery (healthy, mission accomplished), I'm likely to see it as relatively minor when looking at the big picture I see today.

Hell, I don't know. Talk is cheap, isn't it?
Studly

Trad climber
WA
Oct 10, 2012 - 02:55pm PT
My Father is the Universe,
basking in self-reflection,
as principle, harmony, and self awareness.

I am
A Universal statesman.
I rove among the stars.
And I and my Father are One.

The One I revere is Nature.
My Father's wife, for She
Brings forth all living beauty.
And we three are One.

I am come into this world with
A purpose, to live and teach
The ever-present law and Love.

The law I live by and teach is
The Golden Rule,
"Do unto others as you would
That they do onto you,"

and thereupon are founded my
Inner statues, my thoughts,
Words and deeds, even unto my
Practice of conservation and
Economy, gentleness and
Forgiveness.

The prayer I pray is
"That I have little,
Yet need naught."

I travel light,
"Silver and gold have I none,
But of what I have,
Give I thee."

My love is the ready gift of
My suit of clothes before they
Are worn out, for
"No greater love hath a man,
Than that he would lay down
His life for his friends."

And when I go, I leave behind
Me a sucess, a house in order,
And my suit of clothes.

I know not my next destination,
Nor really care for I like
Surprises.

but I do know that forever,
There will I find another
Challenge, a smile, a cool
Drink of water, and a little
More love of life, or the
opportunity to give these
Things and give them more
Abundantly.

And whoever shall walk this
Path of his own free choice,
And teach others to do
Likewise, the same shall be
Lord over his own house, and
A lord over his Father's
Mansion.

H. Van Dyke
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Oct 10, 2012 - 10:52pm PT
Those thinking beyond religions and theisms (e.g., the atheists) might find this piece on violence worth reading about:

http://munews.missouri.edu/news-releases/2012/1002-amazonian-tribal-warfare-sheds-light-on-modern-violence-says-mu-anthropologist/

30% of Amazonian deaths before European contact were from violence.
splitter

Trad climber
Cali Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
Oct 10, 2012 - 11:01pm PT
...and jealousy over women!

Sure, blame it on the gals!

Some things never change, eh? lol
WBraun

climber
Oct 10, 2012 - 11:05pm PT
HFCS

I was there in that jungle hundreds of miles where no whitey man is allowed.

They were the most mellow people I've witnessed. What's the point?


jstan

climber
Oct 10, 2012 - 11:24pm PT
There must be a special vocabulary term for someone who...

...who declares far and wide she's looked "under the hood" of "the machinery of life" from all angles again and again and again - and yet still after all that just doesn't get it - not in the fundamentals nor the subtleties.

She is human.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Oct 10, 2012 - 11:30pm PT
Werner
Why didn't you show off your booby's?

Jus Drool'in
BB
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Oct 11, 2012 - 12:24am PT
The reason I don't get it, is that my experience has shown me that there isn't just one it to get.
slayton

Trad climber
Here and There
Oct 11, 2012 - 04:33am PT
Not a part. There are no parts of One. How could there be? I mean, really, think about it. How can any single object have parts? If you had a car, and I deleted one piece at a time, at what point would there no longer be a car for you? Are some parts the essence of car more than others? If so, then they are the car and the others are superfluous? (This is an old but important riddle about emptiness. There's no answer to it, but it shows how no thing can be itself independently. Everything is the result of causes and conditions which are forever changing. IT's a dance.)

If you tragically lost an arm or a leg would you no longer exist? They were once a part of you. You lost it or them. What now in your analogy?

There are an infinite number of parts to one. Mathematically, the number 1 can be infinitely divided. All of those pieces exist on their own even if when put together they add up to 1. Comparing a car to the Universe as a symbol of something complete or ONE is apples and oranges. A car can absolutely be stripped of many of its parts and still be a car. A car will still work as intended as a form of transportation without lots of things; doors, windows, lights, even various parts of the engine. But so what, even without a tire or two and the ability to drive a car is still a car. And a tire is still a tire and not a car, it's a part of a car. Unless, of course, you want to use it for something else, because then, it's not even part of a car. It might be part of a retaining wall or a junk heap or whatever your creative, individual mind conceives of.

These are all parts in the ONE, the Universe. Just like you and I. Parts in the bigger picture that is ALL.

As the conversation wandered into issues of what is right and wrong, etc., evaluations and ethics arose. This is good, that is bad, this is correct, that is incorrect, Obama is right, Romney is wrong, helping old women across the streets is good, murdering 7 million Jews is bad, yada yada. The evaluations are meaningful as speech acts, but they stand for nothing . . . . just like particles, gravity, and centrifugal force. They are terms that purportedly reference reality as speech acts, but the objects referenced do not independently exist. They are in the universe but they refer to nothing if they refer to objects in the universe


These aren't just "evaluations [that] are meaningful as speech acts". These are evaluations based on living individual lives, with individual thoughts and feelings based on experiences living those individual lives.

Again, I think that many get too caught up in words and trying to explain. The reality is right here right now as we experience it. Individually. There is the ONE that is whole and makes up everything and there are the individuals (us and everything else) that make up the ONE. Someone can speak of relative examples, of right and wrong in this or that and it matters not at all to the ONE, the whole, the workings of the Universe but it certainly matters to the one affected. Ask the rabbit eaten by the wolf what it wanted.

And as an example, again, if you throw a rock at my head, I know that if it hits me it's going to hurt. If it does hit me I know that it hurts. I also know from experience of being hit in the head with a rock before that it will hurt for some time after.

I just got out of the hospital for major surgery a few days ago, and I Grok Pain, brother. It seems as real to me as anything could. But in my heart (not my head), I think it's just something that I'm paying attention to--just an idea, a perception, a passing fancy, a feeling, . . . . I think it's just something that I'm making much ado about. I'm tempted to say it's nothing.


I empathize with your pain Mike and wish you a speedy recovery. I wish you the best. I hope that your heart's thinking overcomes the pain that your head is announcing. If on your journey you discover how to overcome that pain please share it. I know that might sound condescending but it's not. It just seems anathema to the vast majority of human experience.

We all exist. We are all a part of this Cosmic Flame. There is no getting out or going elsewhere. Recycling is the plan.


Sean

MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Oct 11, 2012 - 09:38am PT
Sean:

Thanks. :-)

The old "chariot" thought experiment isn't working for you. It's probably esoteric.

Separate parts, what's supposedly relative to something else, and the passing notions of evaluations all help to build a sense of individuality and difference that ignores what must also be a complete unity. It presents a paradox, or at least understanding cannot be expressed or understood verbally or conceptually. Your responses are all perfectly logical and rational.

Try this, if you will. (i) Reality is perfect. It must be. Nothing in reality can be out of place, wrong, inappropriate, improper, or can be made better or worse. So, what's to evaluate? (ii) Reality expresses (or we see) multiplicity / infinite diversity, but at the same time there is only one reality. Which is it? Is it one of those statements, both, neither?

I think you're claiming that there are real objects in reality, but that leads to conundrums and paradoxes that are difficult if not impossible to explain conceptually. What I'm claiming is that they are essentially only images created by the mind, not unlike what one might claim to see in a grand and complex tapestry.

Mathematics is a tool, an idea. It's useful, but no one can find a one or a two in reality anymore than one could find a straight line in Nature.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Oct 11, 2012 - 11:50am PT
Werner, that is a very cool photo. I can only imagine the awesome life experience that must've been. I've never been to the amazon. If I had a bucket list, a few months life experience in the amazon would certainly be on it.
splitter

Trad climber
Cali Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
Oct 11, 2012 - 04:56pm PT
I like that pic of WB & his new converts!

edit: i bet what won them over was "Americans are so stupid!"

;)
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Oct 11, 2012 - 07:20pm PT
Jan said: A good case in point is assuming that meditation and internal journeys have to involve the supernatural.



I've also wondered where people got the idea that meditation in particular involved the "supernatural," or sought the supernatural.

What IS this supernatural that people keep talking about? Seems a little like looking for raw awareness in matter. The search itself is based on a false assumption.

JL
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Oct 11, 2012 - 07:45pm PT
First, it was a false assumption on Jan's part - as none of the Taco "atheists" have concluded meditation must include or has to involve supernatural belief. Case in point: I meditate myself. So does Sam Harris.

Second,

What IS this supernatural that people keep talking about?

From someone who's had years of theology? C'mon, get real man.

I'll respond anyways: What is this supernatural? Ask any Christian. Any Muslim. Any religious Jew. Our culture since its inception is awash in it. The Arab world is awash in it. The ancient world was awash in it.

I challenge you: Be authentic. To self or to your audience. Enough rhetoric if that is what it is.

.....

To be clear, my own "meditation" has bases: a natural basis... a neural basis... a material basis. Curious: Yours? Jan's? Deepak's?

"If you want more, you have to require more from yourself."
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Oct 11, 2012 - 07:51pm PT
An Atheist thread.

Why are there so many posts about nothing?

Let people believe in what they want, or have no belief.

Freedom of religion, includes freedom of no religion.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Oct 11, 2012 - 07:54pm PT
Let people believe in what they want

What a naive comment. Like "Don't judge."

This person might disagree...

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2012/10/10/malala-yousufzai-taliban-swat-valley-schoolgirl-_n_1953440.html
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Oct 11, 2012 - 07:57pm PT
Why? I'm totally against a lot of religions, but hey, let them be crazy.

High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Oct 11, 2012 - 08:02pm PT
let them be crazy

Ah, to get involved or not to... always the $64M question...

The belief: Killing a two-week zygote is murdering a person.

You okay with this belief?

Another: Elephant bull tusk ground to powder is aphrodiasic for Chinese males.

.....

Not so simple.

Some beliefs matter.

Citizens have a right if not a duty to get involved, to try to influence, debate the issues, and such.

There's a huge difference between (a) "smacking" one down for his belief over the internet or in an essay or in a debate and (b) smacking one down for his belief at the point of a knife or gun barrel. Though some pussies and politicians and losers as partisans in their cause most definitely and to some effect like to blur this distinction.

Taking a moment here to reflect on how strange it really is... that a post discussion like this is even necessary. It's the 21st century... yet we still have to address such basic ideas or principles as... Beliefs matter. Wow.


a so-called droste effect, yay for the internet
.....

Ultimately, as I'm sure you know, one's response is a function of where one's interests lie. Some get their panties in a bunch if a wee-bit of rock is chipped from El Cap to make way, go figure.

"keep super topo rowdy"

Corollary: Keep the pot stirred. Evolution requires it to work.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Oct 11, 2012 - 08:45pm PT
To be clear, my own "meditation" has bases: a natural basis... a neural basis... a material basis.


How does you meditation itself have a material basis?

Just asking...

JL
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Oct 11, 2012 - 11:18pm PT
How does you meditation itself have a material basis? Just asking...

C'mon, after all these months, you must know my beliefs (aka holdings or positions) regarding the mind-brain relationship.

This relationship, along with its activities or operations, has a material basis.

.....

meditation: any exercise of mind consisting of deep contemplation or reflection esp oriented toward some goal or objective.

How simple a definition, eh? ;)

.....

More importantly I think, for an interesting meaningful exchange, would be your take on any of Sam Harris' ideas expressed in his Australian atheist lecture... Death and the Present Moment.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ITTxTCz4Ums

For instance, what do you make of his claims of (a) the reality of your life is always now; memory of the past (even the past itself) is but a thought arising in the present; the future is a thought of anticipation arising now, in the present; (b) the frame we put around around an experience largely determines our interpretation of the experience; (c) progress, otherwise performance, in one's practice of living can be as much or more a function of a change of attitude as a function of more facts; (d) his enmass exercise in meditation (mindfulness)...

And there's even more thought-provoking ideas worth contemplating and discussing - you should check it out if you haven't already. It certainly signals big changes - dare I say evolution - coming to our belief discipline systems.
WBraun

climber
Oct 11, 2012 - 11:39pm PT
Sam Harris is your Guru.

You worship him ........
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Oct 11, 2012 - 11:42pm PT
Worship, no.

Better: I respect him.

A smart brave one, he is.

(Although the word "worship" if memory serves derives from the Old English for value. So I value him, yes.)

.....

Hey, the point with the violence in tribal Amazonian history piece (last page) was multifold I think. One point though is this: one's take on violence (e.g., nature and history and causes for being) is likely a strong function of whether he's operating out of an evolutionary ecological framework (like me or many an evolutionary a-theist) or a traditional Abrahamic theological framework (like so many traditional Christians, e.g., Paul Ryan, or Muslims, e.g., the Islamic militant Taliban). (2) And this difference in take could make for an interesting discussion - in the right company - of evolutionary atheists, that is.

.....

re: VP debate

By the way, speaking of Lyin Ryan... Alka Seltzer is fizzable. Uranium is fissionable. I'd prefer that my pol reps knew the difference between the two. Ha!

.....

Here's a favorite from the SH lecture:
"What matters is consciousness and its contents. Consciousness is everything. Our experience of the world, the experience of those we care about, is a matter of consciousness and its contents. So whatever the origins of consciousness, the most important question for us is how can we truly be fulfilled in life? How can we create lives that are truly worth living given that these lives come to an end?"

Deep. Intense. Huge. (For some.) :)


Another droste effect. After visiting recursion.
WBraun

climber
Oct 12, 2012 - 12:30am PT
"Life" never comes to an end.

After you throw your worn out coat into the dumpster do throw yourself in there too?
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Oct 12, 2012 - 02:44am PT

" the most important question for us is how can we truly be fulfilled in life? How can we create lives that are truly worth living given that these lives come to an end?"

Huge? Deep?? Intense???

Ur walk'in around in the shallow end of the pool like ur afraid to get ur balls wet !!!!!

Jus Backstroke'in
BB
giegs

climber
Tardistan
Oct 12, 2012 - 03:14am PT
I don't know about all this. Who's to say the life I lead is better than the one I don't? Waking up every morning only to confront the inherent pointlessness of it all with an insatiable desire to find and ascribe points is exhausting. I just want to go to work, love my lady and my friends, play with the dog, and climb rocks. The rest is tangential.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Oct 12, 2012 - 12:18pm PT
Fruity - When I asked how meditation itself had a material basis, you're answer requires a thought process hooked to a belief that you can reverse engineer back to a material brain you believe creates consciousness and makes meditation possible. This thought process is not meditation.

What's more, when "meditation with goals or objectives" is not meditation but focused thinking, ergo ego driven, since your ego has determined or decided upon the agenda per what you'll think or contemplate. Of course it's impossible to ever transcend your ego doing so - we can easily see why.

When yo let go of your attachment to thoughts, with getting to or maintaining a state, a place, an idea, and when you don't concentrate, moving toward or away from whatever arises - try and find your "material base." It's just another shimmering piece of qualia in your field or awareness, and that field is itself ungraspable, as is the agency who is present with it.

Note how hard it is to just abide with this without the discursive mind trying to horn in theories and ideas - especially the idea that you are wasting your time unless the discursive mind is engaged in grinding on some thing or idea. Not easy IME.

Those questions about Sam Harris are interesting and deserve serious responses and I have to work now. I hope to get to those later.

JL
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Oct 12, 2012 - 12:59pm PT
Timid TopRope +1

-


What matters is consciousness and its contents. Consciousness is everything.
No, I'd say that's a low-leveled but highly understandable view. As a teacher, I can report that what people first learn must at some point be jettisoned in order to move forward. Ken Wilber has the idea down cold. First, differentiate: see differences and similarities in things. Learn to discriminate one thing from another. Then integrate them into a whole by creating categories: see and link differences through patterns and structures. Finally, transcend: Move to the next wider, deeper, higher more inclusive system. Transcending is where one broad view must be replaced with another system altogether. Then the process starts all over again. Differentiate--integrate--transcend. Hegel's ideas about thesis--antithesis--new thesis is similar in ilk. Cognitive science has made somewhat analogous discriminations when it talks about the differences between naive knowledge structures versus a novice's knowledge structures versus the knowledge structures of experts.

Consciousness (and its contents) are very interesting and a great place to start (observationally through meditation) but it is probably a novice's view of existence to think that it is all there is. Consciousness is undeniably apparent to everyone, but there seem (according to the taproot / leading-edge beings historically) to be non-conceptual states of being that transcend what is immensely obvious. We are surely advanced, but we cannot be at the end of the line.

When I lose consciousness or my consciousness shifts (drugs, illness, etc.), "I" do not go away, become another self, or return as another self. I may feel like sh*t or changed today--my consciousness seems greatly affected by pain, narcotic haze, physical ailments--but "I" am still here. Only by getting beyond my own conceptualizations can I seem to make ANY Real Changes to that object that always seems to be around: my ego, the "I." All beliefs are the enemy.

At some point, it seems a person must pull themselves up by their own bootstraps and transcend themselves. They must kill their own ego. It's a paradox that's been portrayed in almost endless mythology and evolutionary tale. All are metaphors.
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Oct 12, 2012 - 02:48pm PT
[youtube=rFuy0gergBE&sns]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rFuy0gergBE&sns=em


Isn't it kind of hard to argue that there isn't a material basis for meditation, When you're doing it in a human body?
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Oct 12, 2012 - 02:53pm PT
I never understood Atheist preachers.

More annoying than liberals.

And people who are Atheist just because they're liberal.

I hate people.
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Oct 12, 2012 - 03:52pm PT
"Life" never comes to an end.


 Was trying to read the entire page… read most but got to here and nearly died laughing….


Now, is this part of your imagination? Or is there any evidence to base this on?


Bwahahaha



(To be sure, this is just more evidence that religion is man made and therefore not worthy of my belief)


Thanks Jaybro, very real video. Alex hits the bullseye
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Oct 12, 2012 - 04:04pm PT
It's it kind of hard to argue that there isn't a material basis for meditation, When you're doing it in a human body?


I wasn't talking ab out arguing or discursive reasoning. We can argue most anything. I meant, when you sit your ass down and settle, what is your immediate, right-now, experiential relationship to material? I'm not saying we don't have one, but what is it? And who or what is relating to that "material base," and do you experience that which relates and the base itself as selfsame?

As strictly discursive ideas, these questions sound nonsensical, but if you can muster the discipline to to hang with the process long enough to let the monkey mind settle, such questions are very interesting for some - but not everyone. Many people get mildly crazy without a task or a bone for the discursive mind to chew on, and the rants start in about staring at your navel and so on LOL.

JL

BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Oct 12, 2012 - 04:41pm PT
MikeL
"Differentiate-Integrate-transcend"
These activities could probably be carried out by the mind and the brain.
I would ration that between Intregrate-Transcend you could insert "moralize" ?
As a judge to direct where to integrate. As to which direction to transcend.

"All belief's are our enemy" Aren't our beliefs our truths?
"I believe it's going to be sunny in JTree today!". I'm giving you my honest truthful opinion of fact based on integrated data and experience. When we say we "believe" something we have a need to be sure that something be true. Enough so as to stake our honor by putting our name on it. And our trust in it. As to esteem our I. "Ego".

Maybe at the point right before he grabs his bootstraps. A man finds his ego deflated by his material being. Maybe to the point of a meditated conscience? So much as to question his own beliefs. Thus descending through his Differentiate-Integrate pattern without bias. In order to Transcend.
Or:
What if your bootstraps are pulled all the way up! And your material cup is full! And you've been able to deduce the truths in your life.. So you earnestly seek what you can't see. Then you look at the Myths, metaphors and parables to fill a cup. In which I may clink my material cup to. And let out a wopping "CHEERS!"

Jus Quess'in
BB

squishy

Mountain climber
Oct 12, 2012 - 06:15pm PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
eeyonkee

Trad climber
Golden, CO
Oct 12, 2012 - 07:02pm PT
I'm feeling in an an ornery mood and feel the need to come to the defense of HFCS. The thing about describing the atheistic point of view is that all of the really smart people (who are atheists) converge on the same viewpoint. It's not just Sam Harris. Read two pages from any of the books by Steven Pinker, Richard Dawkins, or Daniel Dennet and you can't help but learn something about the world that you probably really never thought of before. These are some of the smartest guys on the planet (along with Ed Hartouni), in my opinion.

Now think of the "great" theistic thinkers. Do they collectively converge on a world view? I think not. I also think of all of the stuff that I have read of Largo's on this and similar subjects. Do I learn anything? No. Just a bunch of meaningless jargon and questionable logic. Sorry, Largo. You're a hero of mine, but I've got to call a spade a spade. Honestly, what may have put me over the edge was your fruity insult to HFCS, a clearly rationale person.

eeyonkee

Trad climber
Golden, CO
Oct 12, 2012 - 09:09pm PT
I'm feeling in an an ornery mood and feel the need to come to the defense of HFCS. The thing about describing the atheistic point of view is that all of the really smart people (who are atheists) converge on the same viewpoint. It's not just Sam Harris. Read two pages from any of the books by Steven Pinker, Richard Dawkins, or Daniel Dennet and you can't help but learn something about the world that you probably really never thought of before. These are some of the smartest guys on the planet (along with Ed Hartouni), in my opinion.

In re-reading this, I realized that I should be more clear about what I mean. What I meant to say is that when you read any of the 4 authors mentioned, you will learn new things about the world that are not only interesting (smart people like to think and talk about interesting things), but collectively consistent with our everyday sensibilities about the world. C'mon, the world is infinitely interesting and there are an infinite number of interesting things to know about and creative things to do in the world.

The theistic (including the "ghost in the machine viewpoint" of Largo's) starts with a (painfully) simplistic piece of inductive reasoning (that God or a universal consciousness exists and all of the other related crap which is largely dependent on where you were born) and tries to fit this hypothesis with all of the other facts from everyday life. To me, the most interesting phenomenon is the fact that smart people choose to suspend the instincts that have served them so well in their everyday lives and believe in the magical things required of their religious belief.
Phantom X

Trad climber
Honeycomb Hideout
Oct 12, 2012 - 09:32pm PT
^^^^^^This one will definitly end up at the hot place!
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Oct 12, 2012 - 09:57pm PT
eeyonkee, there he is, cheering for the underdogs!

Thanks for doing your part, in the spirit of Weeg, to help keep things rowdy, stirred up, some!

.....

P.S.

This "Fruity" is merely just an affectionate nickname is all - designating me since I'm chock-full of fructose - fruit sugar - used on these "debate" threads. No harm, no foul, really!



Good to see you're a Pinker and Dennett fan, too, in addition to the others. New post by Harris, just today:

http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/this-must-be-heaven

One neuroscience guy taking a neurosurgeon guy (who's about to make a ton of money; selling out on his science edu? you make the call) to the cleaners. It would be dramatic, really, if it weren't so damn frequent. The world we live in!
WBraun

climber
Oct 12, 2012 - 10:03pm PT
Largo never said anything about a ghost in a/the machine.

You ever see a ghost driving a car or walking around in a coat?

Nope there's a live living entity driving the car and operating the machine (body).

There's a live living entity wearing the coat. (Body)

And you claim you and these guys are the most intelligent making stupid claims that ghosts are operating in our machines (bodies).

Not very intelligent making up sh!t about ghosts.

Life comes from life ......
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Oct 12, 2012 - 10:06pm PT
I know what you're getting at, Largo. I just don't know that attempting to describe it verbally is the thing. Kind of like trying to write a symphonic score in words. I take the Taoist suggestion,"The way that can be known, is not the way" to mean you have to do it, not talk about, or analyze it.

I spend a lot of solitary time in the desert, and other places. I can just, be. I can lose sense of self. I think what that is, is beyond the scope of expounding on the internets. And is only experienced first hand. Sort of like the parable of the cave, or like they said in the Rocky Horror show-" don't dream it, be it"
Phantom X

Trad climber
Honeycomb Hideout
Oct 12, 2012 - 10:14pm PT
I'm betting Largo could pummel eeyonkee early in the first round. I'm not suggesting this though as I abhor violence. Mt. Woodson would be a great place to hold this holy event.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Oct 12, 2012 - 10:17pm PT
By the way, Largo and Timid's perspective re: "meditation" is (way) too narrow or restrictive as there are many species of meditation; in fact many concern a goal or objective or desired result. Either from within or without. Otherwise why meditate at all, what would be the purpose.

But never mind - or no mind - for now. :)

.....

Giegs,

I can certainly appreciate the attitude or perspective you expressed.

.....

btw, this is weird...


the droste effect
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Oct 12, 2012 - 10:29pm PT
Screwy thing is to be accused of not getting or not thoroughly grasping a bottom-up materialist, antecedent forward causal take on reality. I can recite those positions and can virtually assure you of the next words and the next argument that will come out of Craig's mouth. What, exactly, is there to "miss" on how a materialist views the world. What is not clear? Dorks toss off glib rants like "a (painfully) simplistic piece of inductive reasoning" - not realizing that reasoning is not the entire game. Not even close.

Recently I have introduced the idea that self and experience are both "ungraspable." I couldn't have said this any clearer. And yet people come back with the fantastically screwy notions that I'm a theist preaching about ghosts in the machine and that I have a "belief" about "God" and am artificially constructing a contrived universe around this notion.

Fact is, ghosts and "God" are things people have ideas about, have pictures drawn from old time religion. But what I said was that experience and presence is ungraspable, not that there is a non-thing called a ghost, or an entity called God, that abides in us but dodges science somehow.

And Fruity: You said: Either from within or without. Otherwise why meditate at all, what would be the purpose.

The entire point is to get in there and discover the purpose directly. You're trying to reckon reality before you ever go there. You can't let go of thinking for even 20 minutes.

JL
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Oct 12, 2012 - 11:40pm PT
Yesterday while on a run I had a moment of meditation - most of my meditating is spontaneous and I don't always come away with some grand idea, sometimes just the act of diving into my head and my thoughts seems like the thing to do. I fall into the habit of surpressing thoughts and compartmentalizing my feelings (often a trick that people who aren't really spiritual use to blindly follow the religion their parents shat on them) so its nice to allow free thought, if only for fleeting moments.

High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Oct 13, 2012 - 12:36am PT
re: meditation

A couple of points (beating a dead horse, perhaps)...

(1) meditate < meditare goes way back to ancient Latin (further than Late Latin) to mean... to reckon, contemplate, reflect or think - it's that basic (yeah, kind of like the words "spirit" or "faith" too)

(2) I found it interesting just now that wiki...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meditation

not only (a) describes "meditation" as a normative practice (meaning oriented toward a benefit (or goal)) but (b) actually cites "goal" in its opening sentence.

So there! :)

Here it is: "Meditation is a practice in which an individual trains the mind and/or induces a mode of consciousness to realize some benefit,[1] although it can be argued meditation is a goal in and of itself."

Or, as an alternative, how about... induces - in lieu of "a mode of consciousness" - an attitude? or a change of attitude?

Good night, all, thanks for the intellectual / spiritual stimulation, appreciate it!
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Oct 13, 2012 - 12:48am PT
Here it is: "Meditation is a practice in which an individual trains the mind and/or induces a mode of consciousness to realize some benefit,[1] although it can be argued meditation is a goal in and of itself."
--

That's the beginning stuff. You anchor your mind onto your breath, or hitch it to a mantra. The problem with "training or inducing" is that this effort to control the mind is directed from the discursive mind or ego, in subtle ways that will make sure you never get past it. It is, in essence, trying to make meditation another cognitive exercise.

JL
Captain...or Skully

climber
Oct 13, 2012 - 12:50am PT
Maybe you're doing it wrong.....
WBraun

climber
Oct 13, 2012 - 01:04am PT
In this modern age people learn meditation from Wiki.

Nice and cheap just read some stuff and your in and know everything.

Mind all fixed up and done and remains stupid.

In the old days you go to Master. Knock on door.

Master opens door and scowls "Go away useless poseur".

Real student never leaves the front door.

Every day Master comes to the door and scowls at the student and slams the door in students face.

After many days Master leaves door open .......
splitter

Trad climber
Cali Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
Oct 13, 2012 - 01:08am PT
eeyonkee - here ya go bro! check this debate out...
[Click to View YouTube Video]

edit: you may find Nassim Taleb particularly interesting, but they (all six) are, imo!

btw, eeyonkee + phantom x chimes in, cool! all we need is mr. badazz himself rick p & we got the nucleus of the PWMB/PWMM ... KILLER! who woulda thought, way back when, that ya'll cud meet here simultaneously while living in such diverse places? three cheers for one of the better aspects of current tech, eh?
Borut

climber
french
Oct 13, 2012 - 01:20am PT
I'm not an atheist and not a theist, nawmean?
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Oct 13, 2012 - 01:40am PT
Meditation;
Was first prescribed by God to Isaac to deal with his troubles. Way back in Genesis.
Then to Joshua. "This book of the law shall not depart from your mouth, but you shall
"meditate" in it day and night"

Jus Ohmmm'in
BB
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Oct 13, 2012 - 01:55am PT
Gdavis wrote
I fall into the habit of surpressing thoughts and compartmentalizing my feelings (often a trick that people who aren't really spiritual use to blindly follow the religion their parents shat on them.

2nd step in becoming an atheist.

1st step denial.

Jus Observe'in
BB
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Oct 13, 2012 - 02:02am PT



Borut

climber
french

Oct 12, 2012 - 10:20pm PT
I'm not an atheist and not a theist, nawmean?

NEITHER!!???

What are U a Sport Climber?

Jus Ask'in
BB
Captain...or Skully

climber
Oct 13, 2012 - 02:04am PT
So why does it bother you that some folks don't want your magic sky zombie?
Borut

climber
french
Oct 13, 2012 - 02:10am PT
BB, me definitely climber (and French).
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Oct 13, 2012 - 02:23am PT
Honestly;
I chimed in when I noticed so many wrong presumptions concerning the Bible and my best friend Jesus. I thought we could maturely have a discussion on these matters. But now I realize climbers are just human. And belittle even their own. Over something they love. Climbing.

Jus Sad'in
BB
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Oct 13, 2012 - 02:25am PT
Barut,
"We We"
BB
Borut

climber
french
Oct 13, 2012 - 02:37am PT
kicking
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Oct 13, 2012 - 10:24am PT
Now think of the "great" theistic thinkers. Do they collectively converge on a world view? I think not.

Hmmmmm, I think I'll disagree here. I think there is a common thread that runs through their talk and actions.

Do I learn anything? No. Just a bunch of meaningless jargon and questionable logic.

If you haven't learned anything in the threads, it might be (as you said) that there was nothing new for you to hear. But there are scores of reasons why people don't learn other than there being nothing being taught. Learning is a very active participative process. You must be engaged for anything to happen. You surely can not simply sit in a classroom and expect it to happen to you. The same applies in any conversation. A person must work as hard (if not harder) listening as one must talking. As I tell my students, if you bring no questions to class, you have nothing to learn.

Again, I understand that there may not have been anything being taught.
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Oct 13, 2012 - 11:41am PT
Off for some active meditation, trailrunning in the desert. One with all, no god needed.
WBraun

climber
Oct 13, 2012 - 11:48am PT
no god needed.

Impossible to do.

It's never ever happened ever nor will it ever happen ......
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Oct 13, 2012 - 02:02pm PT
It's never ever happened ever nor will it ever happen


 No really… no need for a man made god. You are fooling yourself as much as you say other fool themselves…

There is no god
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Oct 13, 2012 - 02:16pm PT
Blue said:
Honestly;
I chimed in when I noticed so many wrong presumptions concerning the Bible and my best friend Jesus. I thought we could maturely have a discussion on these matters

Blu, you have conclusively proved that you cannot have a "mature" discussion.

Case in point: I twice asked you a very simple question, how old is the earth?

You promised you would not answer using the bible creation story.

And then, when you finally did attempt an answer, just to shut me up I think, then you "immaturely" quoted the Bible in a long paragraph as your "answer" to my very very simple question.

Want to try it again? And this time do NOT use the bible to answer, how old is the earth?

two words, Blue "xxxxxxxx years"
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Oct 13, 2012 - 04:51pm PT
Norton; I think it's older than that!

I guess my explanation of the universe being eternal wasn't satisfactory to you?
Yes it is Bible backed but it hasn't been wrong to me yet! I just read an article about a hot young gun (mr. Burden? Bordoun?) has studied Einstein's original text in German. And with the help of computers and the theory of quantum. Is showing the possibility ofEinstein's theories to be wrong! And what if they are Norton? What if Einstein is all together wrong? What are you going to do then? Fall like the stack of cards you've propped up underneath you!

Jus Ask'in
BB
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Oct 13, 2012 - 05:14pm PT
So Blue, AGAIN you will NOT answer the simple question.

And I know why you won't.


Because you want so very badly to believe that every single word in the Bible is the word of god, so is HAS to be the truth.

And god said in the bible that the earth is 6000 years old and was "created" by god in only six days, because she was SO tired she had to rest on the seventh day.

But if you say the earth is six days old, then you know that you have zero credibility, that you deny and call a lie to lifetimes of rigorous scientific testing.

And IF you do say the CORRECT answer that the earth is 4.5 billion years old or so, then you are in a "trap" because you are then calling god and bible wrong

And you will NOT do that, and so you continue to duck and weave, shuck and jive, and avoid answering the simple question.

And you have the nerve to question the "maturity" of others posting here!

When all this time, you are showing your own immaturity by refusing to state loud and clear the "true" and "proven" age of our earth.

Now go dance around some other stuff, and end each opinion by saying you are "just asking" or "just shucking and jiving", or whatever
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Oct 13, 2012 - 07:11pm PT
Norton
Boy;for as smart as you're making yourself out to be. You're proving to me that your ability to convey what you read is poor at best. NO WHERE in my Bible does it say" the earth is 6000 years old and was built in six days. Relative to our time. If it does show me Mr. scholar!
Let me ask you this; if God did create the heavens and the earth on the first day. And the sun on the fourth day. How do you define a day? Else where in Genesis god mocks time. And says one of our days is like 1000 years to Him. Now you can try and take this one sentence literally. Or if you tie it to the rest of the paragraph and the rest of the Bible. God is merely disclosing that time is irrellavent to Him. You're in a huge crowd that stumble over one line in the Bible. Every line in the Bible is true as long as it is in respect with the ENTIRE Bible.
How about this you tell me how old the earth is. And in the next 10 to 20 years when science proves you wrong. You tell me how sorry you are for being a closed minded Trilobite.

Jus Defend'in
BB
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Oct 14, 2012 - 10:20am PT
NO GOD NEEDED.

Needed? You referring to some kind of necessity? Interesting . . . .

Sometimes you guys say some pretty funny things.

Whether one is a theist, an atheist, or whatever, what are you adding to the conversation to quip that X isn't necessary. It sounds like some kind of logical syllogism is being constructed to prove that something exists or does not exist. I don't think that has ever worked for anything. (See "existential fallacy.")

In throughout all of reality, What IS "necessary?"

(This should keep you busy for a while.)
MissJ

Social climber
Oct 14, 2012 - 11:14am PT
For those sitting on the fence


Dr. Eben Alexander has taught at Harvard Medical School and has earned a strong reputation as a neurosurgeon. And while Alexander says he's long called himself a Christian, he never held deeply religious beliefs or a pronounced faith in the afterlife.
But after a week in a coma during the fall of 2008, during which his neocortex ceased to function, Alexander claims he experienced a life-changing visit to the afterlife, specifically heaven.
"According to current medical understanding of the brain and mind, there is absolutely no way that I could have experienced even a dim and limited consciousness during my time in the coma, much less the hyper-vivid and completely coherent odyssey I underwent," Alexander writes in the cover story of this week's edition of Newsweek.
Alexander says he first found himself floating above clouds before witnessing, "transparent, shimmering beings arced across the sky, leaving long, streamer like lines behind them."
He claims to have been escorted by an unknown female companion and says he communicated with these beings through a method of correspondence that transcended language. Alexander says the messages he received from those beings loosely translated as:
"You are loved and cherished, dearly, forever."
"You have nothing to fear."
"There is nothing you can do wrong."
From there, Alexander claims to have traveled to "an immense void, completely dark, infinite in size, yet also infinitely comforting." He believes this void was the home of God.
After recovering from his meningitis-induced coma, Alexander says he was reluctant to share his experience with his colleagues but found comfort inside the walls of his church. He's chronicled his experience in a new book, "Proof of Heaven: A neurosurgeon's journey into the afterlife," which will be published in late October.
"I'm still a doctor, and still a man of science every bit as much as I was before I had my experience," Alexander writes. "But on a deep level I'm very different from the person I was before, because I've caught a glimpse of this emerging picture of reality. And you can believe me when I tell you that it will be worth every bit of the work it will take us, and those who come after us, to get it right."
eeyonkee

Trad climber
Golden, CO
Oct 14, 2012 - 11:59am PT
Screwy thing is to be accused of not getting or not thoroughly grasping a bottom-up materialist, antecedent forward causal take on reality. I can recite those positions and can virtually assure you of the next words and the next argument that will come out of Craig's mouth. What, exactly, is there to "miss" on how a materialist views the world. What is not clear? Dorks toss off glib rants like "a (painfully) simplistic piece of inductive reasoning" - not realizing that reasoning is not the entire game. Not even close.


First of all, Largo, that first sentence exactly captures what it is about your writing and thinking about this subject that, I dunno, irks me. What you are saying could be said so much more simply. You seem to like to add words - adjectives and adverbs mostly, to your sentences that add obfuscation rather than clarity. I'm surprized you didn't somehow manage to use the word "ergo" as you do in so many of your posts (I'm pretty sure I have never used "ergo" in a sentence unless it was for comedy sake). Now, read any post by Ed Hartouni. Ed's writing is always clear and even if you don't agree on his positions, you are likely to learn something. IMO, every exchange between you and Ed has been won by Ed, hands down.


Now let's look at the rest of that paragraph, (I'm going to elect to forgive you on the childish "dork" diss.) You show that you do not really grasp the materialist "viewpoint" at all. Of the authors I cited, only one, Daniel Dennet, is a philosoper. Dawkins and Pinker are acclaimed thinkers and writers in evolutionary biology and liguistics and neurology. The thing is, what they write about is not exactly defending the materiastic viewpoint. That is the least interesting thing about being a materialst...whether it is true or not. It turns out, the world really is understandable and entirely consistent without the need for anything supernatural or super-materialistic (or involving the word "ergo" in a sentence). The materialistic world is interesting and novel, and I'm sure that we will never completely understand it. Read a book by Pinker or Dennet, and then get back to me.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Oct 14, 2012 - 01:12pm PT
Observation...

Anyone besides me notice that the quality of the posts seems to spike Sunday mornings? ;)

.....

This is awesome!

http://www.redbullstratos.com/live/
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Oct 14, 2012 - 01:15pm PT
eeyonkee, you favor a facts and figures kind of approach and probably short circuit when things are not presented that way. I take another tact - not to confuse but because there is more to the game, much as you would have us simplify reality to mere data.

When you say, "The world really is understandable," what you mean, of course, is that material phenomenon is measurable, and we can induce "facts" about said phenomenon from those measurements. No contention here with that. However inherent in this belief is that this material and these measurements are the entire story. But it is you and yours, and not me, who is saying it MUST be the whole story lest we only can fall back to "God" and witchcraft.

My contention is that material is not the whole story, that you have no chance of understanding your own life via objective measuring - though you will understand processing very well indeed - and the way to understand same in not through discursive reasoning any more than we can understand climbing El Cap by dint of thinking about it, drawing fantastic topos, amassing all the facts and figures in tarnation - but still know nothing about El Cap ITSELF - we can easily see why.

So far as irking you - when you reveal the glib and facile hammering I take by not accepting the party line, I will have my fun in this exchange by screwing with language to that purpose. I'm never attacking a person. But a position. If you think my snide tone and dismissive tactics are accidental, don't forget that real estate I have on Mars - it's going cheap to you and yours. This is not all that serious after all.

Bu seriously for a moment, while you rambled on about Dennett, Dawkins, Pinker and the rest, at no time did you specifically state what you honestly believe I was not understanding about the Materialists philosophy. What do you imagine I am failing to understand - the breadth of their scholarship? The far ranging implications? Which ones do you imagine are lost on me? Time to pony up.

The reason I ask is that you don't know - of that we may be sure.

Dennett, in particular, I could go on about for hours, and anyone else professing a causal indeterminist view of consciousness and decisions making. I had to metabolize all of these guys endlessly in grad school, though my focus was more on Whitehead and James.

I feel Dennett is correct in desiring a philosophy of mind that is grounded in empirical research. The problem is that "mind" is greater than discursive functioning, but because he doesn't know that, and hasn't sat with the process long enough to experience as much for himself, he's left to noodle the process, so to speak, and his take on cognition is merely a positing on processing. As they say, atheists say there is no need for "God" to "explain" (quantify) reality. Pushed to the next step, we have a school insisting that there is no need for any conscious agency to "explain" decision making. Try selling that one in a court of law.

The fact is, Dennett, Dawkins, Pinker and all the rest share a common view on causation providing a mechanistic and materialistic take on reality. My point is not that they don't extrapolate out from there with all manner of examples and sorties here and there - into history, ethics, biology, law, politics, etc. - but rather their entire tottering inductive edifice is built on the belief that reality is fundamentally a material machine - with random and chaotic elements tossed in for "flavah," - but entirely "knowable" and quantifiable, and predictable.

What's more, this is part of the overarching belief system that the material and quantifiable machine approach, by which one "thing" is ALWAYS "created" by antecedent material causes, is the one and only true method of knowing. And this, as I've said all along, is not only the core of materialism, but the sacred heart of scientism as well.

What's screwy is that people insist that "scientism" short changes their take on life, that they don't fit into that camp, that they, themselves, are more.

Note, however, that when I ask for specific examples of where they differ from the forward causal, material/mechanistic view, there is nothing forthcoming. If you differ from the scientism camp - fine. Just tell us in what way. Do you see the causal chain broken somewhere? If so where, and how? Do you see causation working backward in time, or does it only happen A-B-C-D etc... Do you experience more than material? Do yo believe reality is more than a machine "that is really understandable?" Do you believe that there are phenomenon that cannot be measured? Do you believe there is a limit to quanification? If all of this is secondary to the life you lead, since all reality is quantifiable, quantify your life and tell me what it is. This is not a trick question. It is applying physicalism to the letter, believing as it does that the subjective IS the objective, that the map IS the territory. And yet when pressed to prove it, we see how the idea is absurd - as if we could measure our lives.

These are questions that get diverted by insisting that I don't understand the basic materialist/atheist position. But note how the questions remain unanswered, or deflected back to me by way of explaining away the inquiry.
None of this is "lost" me. It's as standard as an old shoe.

JL
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Oct 14, 2012 - 01:41pm PT
Jebus
I sympathize with you completely!
You being on the outside of the fishbowl looking in and seeing all the hypocrisy is a real turnoff. I being a believer in Jesus only wish to validate what I know to be true.
If I told you to take a left at the Great Roof. Wouldn't you stop me and question my topo?
Well just like bad beta is very much frowned upon in climbing. When a Christian hears bad beta about the Bible, it strikes a nerve deep in the soul. And it naturally becomes emotional.
At that point it's very important to stop and think. To remember the lessons given by Jesus. For your actions are your visible (material) means by which you validate your faith(Conscience).

Jus Sympathize'in
BB
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Oct 14, 2012 - 03:53pm PT
Oh boy,

The question would be, Where to start?

The time, energy and interest are not infinite. :(

.....

But here's just one, re: what the materialists supposedly believe...
reality is fundamentally a material machine - with random and chaotic elements tossed in for "flavah," - but entirely "knowable" and quantifiable, and predictable.

No. This supposition is incorrect. At best, it is a gross approx or caricature. As usual.

.....

How's this for one variation... For starters, it is an idea.

Everything in our observable Cosmos is entirely caused (link: causation, causal dynamics) in terms of energy structures and forms some of which manifest in ways our evolved brains perceive or recognize as material.

Secondly, it is an "idea" (a) supported by science and (b) worthy of support - and defending - for getting on in our lives.

Some of those who support this idea, find it useful, astonishing, etc, - yes, like me - might identify with such appellations as... causalist, causal dynamicist, mechanist, physicalist, mechanistic naturalist, mechanistic evolutionist, etc. ( Which beats having no identification at all.)

Today, Felix Baumgartner successfully jumped from 130k feet, broke world records and pushed the proverbial envelope. The whole effort by Felix and his RedBull team succeeded because of their commitment in space and time to this idea.

Causality (aka causal dynamics or causal mechanics) rules. Get with it. It's the source. It rocks. :)

Maybe most importantly, at least for some discussions, we humans are a constituent part of nature and not "above the law" of these causal dynamics - e.g, in the ways many a traditional Abrahamic theist (whether a Frank Graham or a Taliban militant serving his warrior God) has believed for centuries upons centuries.

Now of course if you don't like it, or this declaration, you don't have to accept it. Of course you don't. Not as an idea. Not as a model. Not as a mode or norm of thinking. ( But, p.s., you'd be smart if you did.)

So what's useful here, where's the practical import? A commitment to this idea, for example could be helpful in contributing to a mode (or model) of thought in opposing this "dork" if you're a citizen with a mind to.

"Lies straight from the pit of hell," huh?
[Click to View YouTube Video]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rikEWuBrkHc

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Broun


FYI: He's on the the House Science committee. (Yeah, you read it right.)

So people are liars or simpletons (or maybe just disinterested apathetic ninnies) who say beliefs concerning how the world works don't matter; or beliefs concerning how life works don't matter. To lives. To the health of democracies. To human performance.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Oct 14, 2012 - 03:56pm PT
The time, energy and interest is not infinite. :(

especially not on a Sunday afternoon with all the NFL games on the tube
eeyonkee

Trad climber
Golden, CO
Oct 14, 2012 - 04:11pm PT
Largo,

Here's an example of what I mean. Maybe you really understand biological evolution, and maybe you don't. The "laws" or component parts of evolution are fairly simple. They are things like survive, reproduce, get bombarded by cosmic rays that very occasionally change a bit of DNA which is usually a bad thing but sometimes is a good thing. When it's the good thing, it is typically because it confers either some better way to survive or something that gives YOU that extra something (say, with the ladies) so that the genes in your DNA preferentially survive. That's it. All of these parts are fundamentally mechanical (I much prefer the word, natural).

But from this simple natural model, the whole tree of life has come forth. Trillions of species and (I'm, guessing quintiillions of individual lives). There are all sorts of interesting things that we have found out about this. Things like that eyes and wings have evolved separately many times. There is nothing magical that needs to be invoked to explain these processes.

Consciousness is clearly part of this whole thing, and you probably never had a dog if you think it is exclusively in the realm of humans. I'm a geologist, not a neuroscientist, although I read books on all facets of science. The theory of evolution perfectly explains why we have "more consciousness" than dogs. How consiousness arises is a super-interesting scientific problem whose ultimate solution will not involve navel-gazing philosophy. It will turn out to be entirely consistent with the edifice of scientific knowledge and human understanding that came before it.

Edit: To answer your question about what it is you don't understand. It's this. Novel and complex things can seemingly come out of nowhere even with a "mechanistic" starting point. That's what you underestimate, IMO.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Oct 14, 2012 - 05:45pm PT
a super-interesting scientific problem

Splitting hairs here (why preach to the choir? boring) but if the problem of consciousness is solved someday... I think it will be in the context of...

a super-interesting analytical bioengineering problem... and it will be solved at the hands of analytical bioengineering wonks. :)

We are each of us...
 a multitude (of cells), Sagan
 an analytical bioengineering marvel, hfcs.

Even this praying mantis outside my window right now eating a cricket bite by bite is a bioengineering marvel in its own style, lol.

.....

P.S. "underestimate" is an appropriate word, here, I think.
eeyonkee

Trad climber
Golden, CO
Oct 14, 2012 - 06:14pm PT
The fact is, Dennett, Dawkins, Pinker and all the rest share a common view on causation providing a mechanistic and materialistic take on reality. My point is not that they don't extrapolate out from there with all manner of examples and sorties here and there - into history, ethics, biology, law, politics, etc. - but rather their entire tottering inductive edifice is built on the belief that reality is fundamentally a material machine - with random and chaotic elements tossed in for "flavah," - but entirely "knowable" and quantifiable, and predictable.


I must've missed that last line in the paragraph above from Largo's previous post. Entirely knowable, quantifiable, and predictable? What are you talking about? That's not what most scientists believe, not stated like that (particularly the predictable part)! No wonder you're so off-base on this subject. I've got a new book for you to read, Chaos, by James Gleick.

And more than anything, don't call me CRAIG!
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Oct 14, 2012 - 07:08pm PT
You guys are still whiffing on the pitch. I laid out a basic definition that serves as a supposition to all that follows. I quoted someone saying reality is knowable - and I'm told I don't understand. This is not a serious inquiry at all. Nor has anyone supplied a single instance in which the basic assumptions of physicalism are challenged in any way.

What's more, Fruity insists that those basic assumption are in fact a caricature of true physicalism, but offers no definitive explanation. I remember hearing the old rants served up by determinists - that the rest of us were too simplistic to understand the mind-boggling implications of how complicated and fantastic the machinery is that produces reality and experience; but ultimately we and reality itself are entirely dtermined by antecedent, mechanistic causes. Of course there are randomness and chaos theory and so forth, but the linchpin for all of this is something close to if the equal of classical determinism.

This is a major subject and there are many versions: causal determinism, fatalism, eco, psycho, linguistic, social, and even techo determinism. While the "single cause fallacy" has weakened the hegemony of determinism amongst honest thinkers, the crux for Dennett, and all the rest is devotion to cause-and-effect. That is, "events and entities within a given paradigm are bound by causality in such a way that any state (of an object or event) is completely determined by prior states."

Note that there is no mention of randomness or chaos theory or freaky quantum events which might bring in something from left field, not part of the main flow. In determinism, these left field offerings would be just one more prior event which "creates" the present, so determinism is still up and running despite random and chaotic factors.

This is not a caricature, nor does it become something else when we add in real world complexity because the basic tenets just quoted are in fact the basic tenets.

Note how the discursive mind cannot possibly square free will with determinism. They are mutually exclusive ideas. But nobody lives out this belief in the real world because we know it is merely a thought and a theory, not a fact. We know that we cannot go out and steal a car and tell the judge our grand theft was entirely caused by factors beyond our control - nothwithstanding that we stole the red and not the beige model because we like red.

JL


eeyonkee

Trad climber
Golden, CO
Oct 14, 2012 - 07:17pm PT
Largo, my wife says you are excruciating to read. I couldn't have said it better.

Edit:
You guys are still whiffing on the pitch. I laid out a basic definition that serves as a supposition to all that follows.

Actually, pompous and excruciating fits the bill a little better.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Oct 14, 2012 - 08:55pm PT
Malemute,

Very cool video selection today!
eeyonkee

Trad climber
Golden, CO
Oct 14, 2012 - 08:59pm PT
I concur about Malemute's videos. That video that Splitter found is also good.
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Oct 14, 2012 - 09:10pm PT
I liked Gleick's book when I read it as a non-physics grad student ('85?). So many of us wanted to use the theory to explain many things (e.g., innovation, entrepreneurship). It turned out that to really get it, you had to be able to do the math--which is way advanced. Nonlinear dynamics and chaos are seriously hard subjects.

I think that illustrates the same problem that dilettantes have reading in multiple fields of study. Broad but shallow sampling of topics doesn't really get a person anywhere. It seems one needs to chose a very few and then dig way down.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Oct 14, 2012 - 09:49pm PT
Largo

Please forgive my friends here, for they know not what they do

I MEAN, They know what they do, just not why!

Jus Apologize'in
BB
eeyonkee

Trad climber
Golden, CO
Oct 14, 2012 - 09:51pm PT
So, um, remind me MikeL what your background is such that you are presumeably not a dilettente on these subjects? What a completely imbecilic thing to say.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Oct 14, 2012 - 10:05pm PT
lol,

hey I thought we all had an understanding on these threads at the fire that I was to play the Bad Cop in this drama!

you ARE ornery this week! or at least playing out of character.

funny sh!t, carry on!
eeyonkee

Trad climber
Golden, CO
Oct 14, 2012 - 10:07pm PT
You know, it's like on Friday, I woke up punk.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Oct 15, 2012 - 01:57pm PT

Are you being bad cop or good cop now?

Somebody said it best earlier;

When a foolish man is confronted he either gets angry or laughs.

Think about it; see if this pertains to you...

Jus Bumm'in
BB


eeyonkee

Trad climber
Golden, CO
Oct 15, 2012 - 03:59pm PT
MikeL, in rereading your last post, it occurs to me that I may have taken what you said wrongly. It sure seemed to me that you were suggesting that I was a dilettente and had only had shallow knowledge of what I was talking about. if you did not intend this, I apologize - in fact, I apologize in any case. I also apologize for getting too personal with Largo. With respect to Largo, I DO think he throws his weight around in some of these threads in a way that seems very arrogant to me. For some reason I was especially sensitive to that this past weekend. As HFCS apparently knows, I'm more typically an easy-going guy who tries to make people laugh.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Oct 15, 2012 - 04:58pm PT
Of course I throw my weight around. It's part of the circus.

So call me a light weight. I'm excruciating because I won't back off.

The reasons people get bent is that they are not used to having their core beliefs challenged. The most challenging thing to the atheist camp is that scientism is simply another perspective and that quantification is not the last word. Most atheists have on a psychological level simply swapped out physicalism with "God," and now material reductionism is the last word. I say bollocks. Real science, not science fiction, is a fantastic tool. But when we have "neuroscientists" claiming to make machines that can love and people insisting that looking at objective brain funcioning is the very same as looking at experience itself, I have to chime in on what to me seems lile manifest gibberish.

And Malemute - pry your head out of that bear trap for a sec. I have some "adequate" real estate on Mars for you and it's your for free once you show all us dummies the very quadrant of the brain that "creates" self awareness, or failing that - a "simplistic" take on consciousness if ever there was one - at which point and how does raw awareness become an "emergent function" or epiphenomenon in this here space and time.

JL
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Oct 15, 2012 - 05:00pm PT
See, you're too nice for these debate threads.

No worries, though, I'll put these pinhead knuckledraggers in their place as required.

.....

Ah, I see Largo just posted...

Case in point, if they weren't looking to mix it up some they probably wouldn't come to these threads in the first place particularly with the rhetoric or vocabulary they use or their caricatures of science or whatever.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Oct 15, 2012 - 05:03pm PT
John Long

curious, if you would

Do you personally believe that there IS a supreme being, a god?

And if so, that the god you believe in does indeed take a personal interest in humans?

And if so, did this god "create" the physical universe this earth is a part of?

And if so, did this god "allow" evolution or even direct evolution to occur on this earth, with the intent being the resultant human species evolved to present day level?
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Oct 15, 2012 - 05:05pm PT
In short, I wonder why Blue and Largo just don't go hook up?

.....

By the way, BlueBR, confess if you would: Are you this Illusion Dweller (aka Truthdweller) guy?
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Oct 15, 2012 - 05:08pm PT
There's a key difference. Scientists (mostly atheists or agnostics) know they don't know everything, and never will. Believers tend to think that they know everything, or at least the spaghetti monster has told them everything that they need to know. Which may help explain why scientists are at heart curious and explorers, and many of the religious are less so.
eeyonkee

Trad climber
Golden, CO
Oct 15, 2012 - 05:10pm PT
So be it, Largo. And I will continue to think that you are are completely wrongheaded on this subject:)
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Oct 15, 2012 - 05:16pm PT
Believers tend to think that they know everything

this seems to be an accurate statement

Blu is a case in point, he considers himself enough of an expert on Atheism as to post exactly what Atheists believe and think to themselves

Blu also admits failing high school biology, seemingly proudly, and then posts in such a way as to seek constantly to discredit the rigorous scientific method, especially as it relates to "evolution", presumably because of his personal fear that the direct fossil and dating evidence of human evolution proves his Biblically Genesis belief wrong.

Thus, the more he can deny science, evidence, fossils and dating, then the more assured he is that there were NO humans prior to Adam and Eve, the earth IS 6000 years old, and God the Almighty "created" this earth in six days, then rested.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Oct 15, 2012 - 05:22pm PT
John Long
-

Yo

curious, if you would

Do you personally believe that there IS a supreme being, a god?
-

Not in the old time religious sense of the word. It is my understanding that "god," truth and reality are all basically the same thing - not exactly pantheism, but something mysterious and ungraspable at depth. Our discursive minds are made to and evolved for the purpose of surviving and that means we are set up to contrast and quantify things, or the "many." Our rational mind don't work well with infinite qualities ("God"), which we cannot quantify, so attempts to frame this naturally take novel forms. Investigating this question is an adventure worth having IMO.



And if so, that the god you believe in does indeed take a personal interest in humans?

-


Do I think there's a "God" in a rocking chair talking to "His" children. No. Do I think there is some universal and timeless energy variously called "agape," "compassion," "grace," "love," which is not merely an evolved biological impulse for survival - I do. Do I have material "proof" of same. I do not.

--


And if so, did this god "create" the physical universe this earth is a part of?
--


I do not believe in a primordial creation, whether by God or by singularity or whatever. Reality is unborn and never ending.


And if so, did this god "allow" evolution or even direct evolution to occur on this earth, with the intent of resultant human species evolved to present day level?


I believe reality and mind are always a play between opposites, wakefullness and sleep, inhale and exhale and exhale, the impulse toward complexity and entropy and aging, being and doing, thinking and being, life and death. So to me evolution is just another universal constant.


-

An interesting note is how some feel I am "wrongheaded" on the subject, but never bother to spell out where they believe I have gone wrong? that's that so screwy. I do a poor (instant) but scattershot of qualifying my ideas, but others take issue with me while not saying where they feel the issue lies.

JL
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Oct 15, 2012 - 05:25pm PT
Eeyonkee
Thank you for your last post that out let's get back to what "matter"s

"Edit: To answer your question about what it is you don't understand. It's this. Novel and complex things can seemingly come out of nowhere even with a "mechanistic" starting point. That's what you underestimate, IMO."

This seems like a magical explanation for a mechanistic world. So when you can't connect the dots. Your estimation is that "poof" something from somewhere offers incentive? I don't get it can you offer an example?

Saying the eyeball evolved. Understanding the complexities of the eyeball and the brain for that matter. To say these evolved without consciousness seems ludicrous. How would life even "think" that there was something to "see"? Doesn't make sense to me!
Maybe an animal was just hopping around one day with no eyes. And then poof he could see
Thus becoming aware? consciousness following matter? Is this how you assume the universe works?

Jus Wonder'in
BB
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Oct 15, 2012 - 05:42pm PT
Hfcs
No. Honestly I have a hard enough time just being blue.
People outside of the climbing community tend to call me Michael Sanderson
I'm not sure why ?I'm only happy when I'm blue!

Jus Blue'in
BB
eeyonkee

Trad climber
Golden, CO
Oct 15, 2012 - 05:45pm PT
Largo, I thought I answered at least part of what you are wrongheaded about a couple of posts back. You throw your weight around in spite of having something less than, oh, intellectual heft, IMO.
eeyonkee

Trad climber
Golden, CO
Oct 15, 2012 - 05:56pm PT
Blue, sorry, but it's pretty clear that you do not have the background in science and evolution to be throwing out challenges like this. Like Ed said to MikeL on another thread, go and read a book or two (or three) on the subject.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Oct 15, 2012 - 05:57pm PT
John Long,

thank you for your answers

how about a few more questions?

I take it from your answers that you do NOT believe in a "god" because nowhere did you say that you did

But you do say that "life" on earth in your opinion did NOT come from "primordial", so am I inferring correctly that life on earth from the very first collection of single cells and onward through accepted evolution did NOT occur?

If I have your thoughts right, then from "what" then DID life on earth come from?

And forgive and correct me if I have interpreted your answers wrong.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Oct 15, 2012 - 06:03pm PT
Blue, sorry, but it's pretty clear that you do not have the background in science and evolution to be throwing out challenges like this. Like Ed said to MikeL on another thread, go and read a book or two (or three) on the subject.


thank you for this

I have asked Blu a number of times to first state his "expertise" in order to then criticize science as being "lacking" somehow in regards to its findings regarding human evolution
AND also the physical creation and evolution of our own earth

Blu also goes after Atheists in a number of ways, often "speaking" FOR Atheists and saying as if it was FACT what they believe and why they believe what they believe

Yet Blu is decidedly NOT an Atheist, and I highly doubt he ever was one, although he recently said he WAS an Atheist for 40 years, presumably to show that he became "enlightened" through Jesus later in life, and therefore his beliefs are superior
because he experienced Atheism. Bullhocky I say.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Oct 15, 2012 - 06:04pm PT
Norton
Case in point; if I knew everything I wouldn't be talking to you.
I am sorry if I offended you personally somehow. not my intentions I don't even know you.
Only the accusations you exalt. I humbly concur to be an idiot. I do not contend to have any materialistic proof for my statements. I also recognize you don't either. We only have language
Words. My only intention is to scramble them up and try to secrete some truth.

Jus Scramble'in
BB
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Oct 15, 2012 - 06:05pm PT
Blue, sorry, but it's pretty clear that you do not have the background in science and evolution to be throwing out challenges like this. Like Ed said to MikeL on another thread, go and read a book or two (or three) on the subject.

thank you for this

I have asked Blu a number of times to first state his "expertise" in order to then criticize science as being "lacking" somehow in regards to its findings regarding human evolution
AND also the physical creation and evolution of our own earth

Blu also goes after Atheists in a number of ways, often "speaking" FOR Atheists and saying as if it was FACT what they believe and why they believe what they believe

Yet Blu is decidedly NOT an Atheist, and I highly doubt he ever was one, although he recently said he WAS an Atheist for 40 years, presumably to show that he became "enlightened" through Jesus later in life, and therefore his beliefs are superior
because he experienced Atheism. Bullhocky I say.
eeyonkee

Trad climber
Golden, CO
Oct 15, 2012 - 06:06pm PT
At one point i assumed that Blue was another avatar of Fish.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Oct 15, 2012 - 06:24pm PT
Eeykonee
Seems obvious you don't have much of a background in common sense.( "conscience")
I tried to ask you serious questions about your personal beliefs( not that which is found in a book of someone else's belief). in a simple way that I could understand.
But I guess you're too smart to teach a dummy a thing or two?

By the way can I borrow your book on magic?

Jus Ask'in
BB
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Oct 15, 2012 - 07:18pm PT
Norton norton norton

I have asked Blu a number of times to first state his "expertise" in order to then criticize science as being "lacking" somehow in regards to its findings regarding human evolution
AND also the physical creation and evolution of our own earth

My expertise is that I'm here now with an open mind! You have built a rigid little box without windows around your world. The fact is your stories of human evolution and the age of the universe. Will NOT hold up in any court of law. So they are not the true Truth maybe antidotes
At best! I am not saying science is wrong. I am taking what they have to offer and running with it. For instance; the way they date rock is by taking a radio active measurement to see how dead it is. And it's adjusted to our perceived standard time. Or its age is considered by how deep it is. Assuming it takes a long time to get buried in our rate of time. It's all turned conclusive based on our perceived standard time. And that our rate of time has not changed in some 16 billion years. I do not logically think the sun and the earth have been doing exactly the same thing in the same way for some 500 million years. I would presume the sun to be much stronger even 1 million years ago. Thus it would make it much hotter here raising radioactivity levels or it would change our orbit which would make us spin at a different rate.
Or an astroid hit us and flipped us on our axis and changed all our surface matter around.
Millions of possibilities. Science is but a surfboard I used to ride the waves and be free and enjoy! it's just an accumulation of information nothing more! It has no answers! only more questions.....

Jus Surf'in
BB
MissJ

Social climber
Oct 15, 2012 - 07:23pm PT
There is no reality....there's only perception. So if one perceives God does not exist then he doesn't ...if one perceives God does exist then he does . There's no expertise involved to prove or not prove.

So to state "I was an atheist " is a true statement as it is what he perceived.

BB you are a devout solider. Bless you for carrying on in His name
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Oct 15, 2012 - 07:25pm PT
Blue incredibly said:

The fact is your stories of human evolution and the age of the universe. Will NOT hold up in any court of law. So they are not the true Truth maybe antidotes

stunning

And now Blu states that everything science has proven is wrong, will not "hold up"

he calls human evolution a "story", this from a guy who failed high school biology



donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Oct 15, 2012 - 07:36pm PT
Faith based beliefs can be so strong that people with normal intelligence and education (like bluey) will say things that you wouldn't expect from people with normal intelligence and education. The definition of faith is belief in something that there is no evidence for. If that's your modius operandi, the next step is to attack beliefs that ARE supported be evidence.
MissJ

Social climber
Oct 15, 2012 - 07:42pm PT
Norton, like the picture of you with the glass of wine surveying the beauty around you. What a peaceful , serene picture that is. Of course, were I there, I would have to have said Thank You Heavenly Father for this beautiful day.

It matters not that BB failed biology. I failed math in 4th grade but I still know 2+2 = 4.

We need to be respectful and allow each of us to believe what we perceive to be our truth.

No insulting ones level of intelligence. Even those who are thought to be highly intelligent make some pretty bad choices.

BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Oct 15, 2012 - 07:45pm PT
I'll bet either one of you 100 push-ups I can scientifically provide doubt in any of your proofs
eeyonkee

Trad climber
Golden, CO
Oct 15, 2012 - 08:23pm PT
So Blue IS Russ! Good one.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Oct 15, 2012 - 08:50pm PT
eyyyyyyonke,

Largo, I thought I answered at least part of what you are wrongheaded about a couple of posts back. You throw your weight around in spite of having something less than, oh, intellectual heft, IMO.
--

This is a wanker flame and we all know it. Where you betray your "shallow view," as described by many in various lands, is equating "intellectual heft" with the simple parroting of facts and figures belonging to others. You have offered nothing remotely substantial or even flimsy per original ideas nor yet the slightest deviation from a fundamentalist materialist stance, so we can hardly take serious the implication that you have, hidden somewhere in your dusty old rucksack, the slightest modicum of "intellectual heft." Wild accusations and intemperate speech will get you nowhere - it's easy to see why. But I can't help but have some little fun with you guys.

But seriously, my sense of this is that you have basically no idea whatsoever what I am talking about, which is partially my fault, and partially intentional.

For instance, what is your actual understanding of raw awareness, as contrasted to ephemeral brain content such as thoughts, feelings, memories, sensations? It is not enough yell "gibberish." This is basicaly saying "I don't know," but trying to thieve by on guff and bluster.

One more - what do you suspect is the limitation of the discursive mind, and what do you imagine might lie beyond it which has no relationhip whatsoever with beliefs, faith, "God," or imagination?

Again, for many, not knowing how to approach or answer such questions, "jibberish" is the equal of "I have no idea."

So how honest are you in this regards? Bust out a little of that celebrated heft if you please. I actually am curious to what a meterialist really and truly experiences when asking themselves these simple, and most basic questions.

JL

Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Oct 15, 2012 - 09:28pm PT
I take it from your answers that you do NOT believe in a "god" because nowhere did you say that you did
--

I do not believe in an age-old mythical Abrahamic God who sits on a hill and chucks forked lightning and "creates" things. The idea that such thinking is associated with present day spiritual practices is like believing cold fusion is going be cracked by someone with a bucket and a spatula and a dash of secret sauce.


But you do say that "life" on earth in your opinion did NOT come from "primordial", so am I inferring correctly that life on earth from the very first collection of single cells and onward through accepted evolution did NOT occur?
----


My sense of this is that we have it all wrong in terms of creation and causation, fused as we are to a classical model of causation, basically Newtonian and updated with Al's relativity and all the QM jive with a side order of chaos theory et al.

Reality is a constant, unborn, and uncreated. Forms, matter, fields, and all the rest come and go and collapse and explode in a never ending series of big bangs. Once our universe went bang, evolution was set in motion and proceeded probably much as we currently picture it - even while entropy bubbles away, this incessant drive toward disorder and randomness even as matter cobbles towards complexity. This play of opposites is always manifest in reality.



If I have your thoughts right, then from "what" then DID life on earth come from?

----


Where did gravity come from, or energy, or the set point for the speed of light, or the energy potential for a cubit of vacuum space, or the Big Bang, or DNA, or awareness and mind? These are the great questions. Quite naturally we want pat answers which for some of us are mechanistic, the only other option being "God," the thinking goes. I don't believe that a creator "God" is the only option to mechanical materialism.

We'd like to believe that matter "created" everything, even space minus the energy, but this notion runs out of road pretty early on when we look closely. My sense of it is that there are inherent qualities in reality. Perhaps they morph or fall out in new forms with each successive bang, but unborn, eternal qualities seem a part of the fabric of this life, so far as I experience it.



I forgive and correct me if I have interpreted your answers wrong.



I'll always try and answer a honest question directly. The glib and puerile flames, masquerading as acumen, I'll have fun with, which is my weakness.

But I have a question. I assume that you too are a mechanistic materialist, so in that light, how would you differentiate the qualitative diferences between objective functioning and subjective experience? This is a question that is avoided like the plague on this thread, and I'm curious why?

JL
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Oct 15, 2012 - 09:47pm PT
But I have a question. I assume that you too are a mechanistic materialist, so in that light, how would you differentiate the qualitative diferences between objective functioning and subjective experience? This is a question that is avoided like the plague on this thread, and I'm curious why?

John, I am the first to admit when I am not qualified to speak out on a particular issue

I have never considered your question, hopefully those with better intellects than mine will take up your question
MissJ

Social climber
Oct 15, 2012 - 10:02pm PT
Let's define ...
Definition of Objective and Subjective
Objective is a statement that is completely unbiased. It is not touched by the speaker’s previous experiences or tastes. It is verifiable by looking up facts or performing mathematical calculations.
Subjective is a statement that has been colored by the character of the speaker or writer. It often has a basis in reality, but reflects the perspective through with the speaker views reality. It cannot be verified using concrete facts and figures.

When to Be Objective and Subjective
Objective : it is important to be objective when you are making any kind of a rational decision. It might involve purchasing something or deciding which job offer to take. You should also be objective when you are reading, especially news sources. Being objective when you are meeting and having discussions with new people helps you to keep your concentration focused on your goal, rather than on any emotions your meeting might trigger.
Subjective : can be used when nothing tangible is at stake. When you are watching a movie or reading a book for pleasure, being subjective and getting caught up in the world of the characters makes your experience more enjoyable. If you are discussing any type of art, you have to keep in mind that everyone’s opinions on a particular piece are subjective.

Easy Ways to Remember Objective and Subjective
Objective : sounds like the word object. You should be objective whenever you are discussing an object, something concrete that you can hold or touch. The facts that make up your objective statement should also be concrete, solid objects.
Subjective : is just the opposite. You can’t point to subjective subjects. They are all in your head and your past experiences. Subjective opinions are ephemeral and subject to any number of factors that can range from facts to emotions.

Examples of Objective and Subjective
Objective : scientific facts are objective as are mathematical proofs; essentially anything that can be backed up with solid data.
Subjective : opinions, interpretations, and any type of marketing presentation are all subjective.

I dare say most of us are being subjective in our posts.

Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Oct 15, 2012 - 10:24pm PT
Let's define ...

Definition of Objective and Subjective

Objective is a statement that is completely unbiased. It is not touched by the speaker’s previous experiences or tastes. It is verifiable by looking up facts or performing mathematical calculations.


The problem here is that for some, "objectivity" is seen as the only authentic truth, superficial as it often is. But in the slavish devotion to remaining "objective" the course of subjects is limited to material, for which we and perform mathamatical calculations (measurements). Is it any wonder that in the quest for maintaining objectivity people impulsively try and colapse reality into managable bits of matter?


Subjective is a statement that has been colored by the character of the speaker or writer. It often has a basis in reality, but reflects the perspective through with the speaker views reality. It cannot be verified using concrete facts and figures.


And so anything that cannot be verified by "concrete facts and figures"
(which are the least concrete things imaginable) must be avoided, which is why any questions about subjectivity or experience gets no play here for fear of people being "wrong."


Then this:

John, I am the first to admit when I am not qualified to speak out on a particular issue

I have never considered your question, hopefully those with better intellects than mine will take up your question


"Qualified" by who? You're qualified because you have experience - there's no more required to take a crack at the question. It's not a trick question. Our fundamental reality is experiential - we all have it. We know no other reality than our subjective, in which objective perspectives find play, but we never in this life escape our subjective bubble.

My question has little to do with intellect. Only willingness to look at your life as it unfolds and to report what you see and how you see it.

JL
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Oct 15, 2012 - 10:24pm PT
That was my initial take on blublockr too, Grug.

Blitzo was looking pretty lean at vedauwoo Sushifest....
eeyonkee

Trad climber
Golden, CO
Oct 15, 2012 - 10:25pm PT
This is a wanker flame and we all know it. Where you betray your "shallow view," as described by many in various lands, is equating "intellectual heft" with the simple parroting of facts and figures belonging to others.

Largo, who's "we"? I would imagine that most of "us" would agree with me that your posts show a second rate intelligence bolstered by bluster and big words. I think that you should start every post with "I'm John Long, damnit!"
jstan

climber
Oct 15, 2012 - 10:47pm PT
Hey guys.

Largo may have been sincere a few thousand posts ago. But now that you are pushing back he is trolling. Laughing at being able to waste your time,

like he is.

Best to picture him as the seemingly kindly voice from the other side of the confessional. Probably doing a crossword puzzle to keep the absurdity from making him laugh out loud. Deep down that guy knows the real scoop on talking snakes.

With that I will turn this thread around right here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I7izJggqCoA&feature=g-vrec

High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Oct 15, 2012 - 11:05pm PT
You're preaching to the choir. ;)
eeyonkee

Trad climber
Golden, CO
Oct 15, 2012 - 11:58pm PT
Good one jstan!

It's so easy to sucked in to these threads. I'm done.
WBraun

climber
Oct 16, 2012 - 12:06am PT
I'm done.
^^^^

With what?

You haven't done anything in this thread yet except run your mouth trying to make yourself look smart.

You're not .....
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Oct 16, 2012 - 12:24am PT

I'm done.
^ ^ ^
Another question avoider
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Oct 16, 2012 - 12:34am PT
Jstan, I am not seeing where anyone is actually pushing back. They're simply mumbling about me being stupid and not getting it. Pushing back would be answering questions or offering other contrary points of view by way of examples, thought experiments, and so forth. If someone asks me a simple question I always stop clowning around and try and answer honestly.

Meanwhile, Eeyonkee and Malamute circle the drain but duck even addressing a few simple questions:

What is your understanding of raw awareness, as contrasted to ephemeral brain content such as thoughts, feelings, memories, sensations?

And -

What do you suspect is the limitation of the discursive mind, and what do you imagine might lie beyond it which has no relationship whatsoever with beliefs, faith, "God," or imagination?

These are hardly incendiary questions and have little to do with intellect, religion, materialism, first, third, tenth, or even twentieth rate acumen. And I ask these questions honestly.

I was curious on an atheistic take on these interesting subjects but apparently no one has much of anything to say about them. That, is a curious thing.

JL
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Oct 16, 2012 - 11:40am PT
More to say about the usefulness or quality of this thread later but in the meantime...




She was CAUGHT talking to men! 15-year-old girl gets 60 lashes from religious police. Guess which religion.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2012/1015/breaking56.html?via=mr

One takeaway: If you're heading to Timbuktu, be careful.

.....

Part II:

It occurs to me...

The very culprits that can ruin an adventure in rockclimbing... namely (1) casualness, (2) distraction and (3) ignorance... can also derail these threads and spoil their quality.

So if one can, by whatever means, manage these culprits, maybe a thread like this one can be saved. Maybe.

May be worthwhile, for in these times esp there ARE more than a few exciting ideas and developments (like the "current affair" mentioned above) out there worth discussing - esp in my view among and between those climber-philosophers who are thinking beyond religions and theisms (atheists, e.g., otherwise naturalists, moderns, etc.).

Maybe. ;)

.....

EDIT
Eeyonkee, What a nice compliment, unexpected. Thank you.

“A true friend is someone who thinks that you are a good egg even though he knows that you are slightly cracked.”
eeyonkee

Trad climber
Golden, CO
Oct 16, 2012 - 01:52pm PT
You're a good egg, HFCS.
slayton

Trad climber
Here and There
Oct 17, 2012 - 05:34am PT
Separate parts, what's supposedly relative to something else, and the passing notions of evaluations all help to build a sense of individuality and difference that ignores what must also be a complete unity. It presents a paradox, or at least understanding cannot be expressed or understood verbally or conceptually. Your responses are all perfectly logical and rational.

Mike, I think that there is a Unity and that there are individuals both. There is a system of how things work and in the system there are a multitude of individuals carrying out that work. Much like any other system; the human body with arms, ears, legs, heart, lungs, on down to the single cells that make each individual part function. There is no ignorance of the complete unity but an understanding that the unity is made up of a multitude of parts.

You seem to be saying that because there is a "unity" or a "whole" the parts don't matter into and of themselves. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Try this, if you will. (i) Reality is perfect. It must be. Nothing in reality can be out of place, wrong, inappropriate, improper, or can be made better or worse. So, what's to evaluate? (ii) Reality expresses (or we see) multiplicity / infinite diversity, but at the same time there is only one reality. Which is it? Is it one of those statements, both, neither?

Please define "perfect". I tried to do this years ago while taking a shower and realized two things: either everything is perfect or nothing is. I actually think that there is no such thing as "perfection". I think, "perfection" is a word or an idea brought forth by humanity to either validate or invalidate certain thoughts or ideas. It's a human construct. There is no perfect or imperfect. So, yes, it's all relative.

The idea that there are individual beings who have relative thoughts about their lives, thinking about themselves, their pain, their joy, happiness or worries, and then making the argument that because they or we are a part of a larger "unity" it doesn't matter is asinine.

I exist. I have been and am living my life. You exist. You have been and are living your life. The Universe continues. We are a part of that universe. The One is us. We are a part of the One.
Borut

climber
french, spider
Nov 22, 2012 - 06:42am PT
Whatever, when the Night is at its coldest - just before the sun... that's when we started speaking necessity.

Not to mention Orient, also checked Apeiron, Arche. Goes words back though. Uh.. looks like in the past nothing was necessary.

Gravity? Time!... just dreams.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Nov 22, 2012 - 07:36pm PT
Have fun Atheists. Can you just do me a favor and leave us Christians and our well-founded traditions to us?

Why don't you ass-hats go save some Muslims from themselves? Oh, that's right, they will actually fight back and kill your infidel asses! You people pick on easy targets like peaceful Christians. That will change. Christians are starting to get pissed off too.

Atheists are to religion like PETA to eating food. Eat veggies and leave me the f*#k alone!!!!
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Nov 22, 2012 - 07:51pm PT
Let's be clear here as to what the atheist agenda is;

It is not merely a person who chooses to not believe in a divine entity, known to many as God, but to tear down the fabric of Christian culture. And more.

I know you mother-f*ckers. Well.

This country was founded by God-fearing men, yes MEN, who thought that divine providence gave men and women their rights, not government.

Government was created by men through God's will and spirit in this country. Other country's chose differently and they are now losers. We chose wisely. At least our founders did. They were wise, and they crafted a Constitution based on God's law.

And it works well.
splitter

Trad climber
Cali Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
Nov 22, 2012 - 08:26pm PT
Happy Thanksgiving Day, Atheist (& Theist)!!!

thnx, blue!!
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Nov 22, 2012 - 08:34pm PT
Have a good one, splitter!
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Nov 22, 2012 - 09:44pm PT
I know you mother-f*ckers. Well.

Blue, thought-provoking posts there.

So while you (as a Christian) believe in Jehovah (God of Abraham and Moses), I believe in Zeus and his Son Apollo and his Daughter, Artemis. It's just that I believe the ancient Greeks, not the ancient Hebrews, had a better account of divinity and what is divine. So I wonder if they would count as divinities to your way of thinking, and I wonder if you would you consider me an atheist because they are not the Christian God.
go-B

climber
Hebrews 1:3
Nov 22, 2012 - 10:08pm PT
Whoa! : cease or slow a course of action or a line of thought : pause to consider or reconsider —often used to express a strong reaction (as alarm or astonishment)
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Nov 22, 2012 - 10:48pm PT
So while you (as a Christian) believe in Jehovah (God of Abraham and Moses), I believe in Zeus and his Son Apollo and his Daughter, Artemis. It's just that I believe the ancient Greeks, not the ancient Hebrews, had a better account of divinity and what is divine. So I wonder if they would count as divinities to your way of thinking, and I wonder if you would you consider me an atheist because they are not the Christian God.


Yer a deist, by definition, bro. So, no, you're not an atheist.

Carry on....
Borut

climber
french, spider, cheater
Nov 23, 2012 - 03:58am PT
Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers.
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Nov 23, 2012 - 11:49am PT
Can you just do me a favor and leave us Christians and our well-founded traditions to us?

Why don't you ass-hats go save some Muslims from themselves? Oh, that's right, they will actually fight back and kill your infidel asses! You people pick on easy targets like peaceful Christians. That will change. Christians are starting to get pissed off too.

Atheists are to religion like PETA to eating food. Eat veggies and leave me the f*#k alone!!!!


Peaceful Christians?

Good One Blue!!!1111666.


Wait...I'm confused...who are the infidels?

edit: Thanks Jim, Count me in. But which sect is trying to kill me?
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Nov 23, 2012 - 11:57am PT
Infidel means literally "one without faith." Faith is belief that does not rest on logic or material evidence.....I rest my case.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Nov 23, 2012 - 01:16pm PT
Infidel means literally "one without faith." Faith is belief that does not rest on logic or material evidence.....I rest my case.


Stop using logic, Jim. Sell your line of bullshit to an Islamist and get back to me. Hopefully your head will still be intact.
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Nov 23, 2012 - 01:20pm PT
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Nov 23, 2012 - 01:24pm PT
Oh yes, Marlow, anti-theists would love to marginalize people like me to Don Quixote status. I know.

Keep it up.
Borut

climber
french, spider, cheater
Nov 23, 2012 - 01:30pm PT
Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Nov 23, 2012 - 01:46pm PT
Hate to say it bluering but you always talk before you think and most of what comes out of your mouth is moronic with a nice dash of racism.....was Tuesday 11/6 a fun day for you?
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Nov 23, 2012 - 01:55pm PT
I have no idea what yer talking about, Jim. I am a racist now?

Dude, WTF? You are increasingly getting weird.
Jimmy Russells

climber
Nov 23, 2012 - 01:58pm PT
Baby Jesus facepalms everytime bluering posts.
jstan

climber
Nov 23, 2012 - 02:11pm PT
"Oh father! Save me from my friends."
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Nov 23, 2012 - 02:38pm PT
We Don't Have To LIKE Them; We Just HAVE To Love Them!

Jus Start'in
BB
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Nov 23, 2012 - 03:06pm PT
Baby Jesus facepalms everytime bluering posts.


Wow! that is profound, man. You are so clever.
Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
Nov 23, 2012 - 06:09pm PT
I have to agree with Dr. F.

I'm quiet and leave people alone until they tell me that I have to pray to their god, or I can't buy beer on Sunday because it's god's day, or I can't marry someone unless it's condoned by their bible. These are all very real problems that I have to deal with regularly, especially the blue laws.

Christians, and all of the other religious loonies out there, are constantly trying to shove their religion down everyone else's throats.

If you want to base your life on bizarre ancient mythology, then knock yourself out. But don't try to force-feed me with your kooky mythology.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Nov 24, 2012 - 11:34am PT
Well, I agree. I dislike having religious views constantly foisted upon me. Much like other views that I'm told I have to accept, and if I don't accept them that I'm intolerant or "hateful" for not accepting them.

Religion is a personal matter, much like other issues.

Can someone tell me why celebrating "the atheist life" on a public climbing forum is less offensive as someone celebrating a love of Christ?

God bless y'all...
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Nov 24, 2012 - 11:42am PT
Because people use religion to kill, murder and maim to a much higher degree these days than athiests. Sure, athiests had a few dictators, but that was in a time before the internet.


Every, I dunno, minute? Every minute a child dies under the age of 5 in poverty and despair? How many miles from the reach of what would be considered an evangelical savior?

God works in mysterious ways. Or he is an as#@&%e. But the idea that I should pray for my SAT test when that sh#t is going on seems silly.














HOWEVER - that is just my opinion. I know many deeply spiritual people and they pick up on a frequency that I can't seem to tune into. The idea that spirituality can't be measured so doesn't exist I think is just because a beaker hasn't yet been invented - just like a monkey can't 'get' algebra, I'll bet humanity can't 'get' the subtle cosmic forces at play in energy and our own minds.

But that doesn't mean that there was a dude who was swallowed by a fish and the earth is 10,000 years old.
WBraun

climber
Nov 24, 2012 - 11:52am PT

Why ya all arguin?

Git to work, the country is falling apart and falling off the cliff.

Everything tastes like sh!t too.

We can't eat nuts and bolts ya slackers .....
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Nov 24, 2012 - 11:57am PT
Interesting, Greg.

Some people seek religion only for comfort, and I've always been wary of those people.

Others find religion and explore it, eventually discovering they were always there, they had just walked away from it.

I can not describe it any better than that. It's difficult and way to profound to put into words. I also hate getting all preachy, but even with your eyes closed, you will come into contact with God (or Allah, or whatever). It's just a matter of accepting it, or discarding it as trivial.

Someone like Jennie probably could put it better...

EDIT: Or Werner. Hehe...
Borut

climber
french, spider, cheater
Nov 24, 2012 - 12:42pm PT
Rev. bluering, you believe, undeniably. But you are being rude. This thread is called "I Like the Atheist Life", so why do you post here if you don't like it? Atheists are often people that made bad experiences with belief, maybe theirs, maybe that of others. You should try to understand this.

bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Nov 24, 2012 - 01:41pm PT
Rev. bluering, you believe, undeniably. But you are being rude. This thread is called "I Like the Atheist Life", so why do you post here if you don't like it? Atheists are often people that made bad experiences with belief, maybe theirs, maybe that of others. You should try to understand this.


Maybe so. I'm just adding my $.02 to the discourse. Capisce?

Should I disallow crazy atheists from commenting on religious threads? I couldn't, and I wouldn't.

Stay safe 1st Amendment!
Borut

climber
french, spider, cheater
Nov 24, 2012 - 02:10pm PT
Si, la gapish

I don't know about the "religious threads" you're talking about, but
do you mean you are taking revenge on this here topic for something you disagree with on an other topic? That would sound weird, don't you think?
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Nov 24, 2012 - 02:12pm PT
Si, la gapish

I don't know about the "religious threads" you're talking about, but
do you mean you are taking revenge on this here topic for something you disagree with on an other topic? That would sound weird, don't you think?

Of course...
Borut

climber
french, spider, cheater
Nov 24, 2012 - 02:16pm PT
Well then I hope you stop
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Nov 24, 2012 - 02:22pm PT
It's a curious psychological thing that people feel threatened by those who do not believe as they believe (and act), as though someone else has some direct effect on reality, or is encroaching on their life in some meaningful, negative way.

For example, I've always wondered why folk get so bent about gay people being gay and doing what they do - and lest we straight peeps stop them, they will cheapen marriage, corrupt the unwitting and draw the weak directly into buggery and bushwhacking.

I don't see it. Never once when I've been with a girl have I felt like I was being done out of something or was in some way influenced by what the gay folks were doing down the road. And not once in all the times I have gone into a zendo have I had my experience compromised by an atheist. When people are difficult or insistent (fanatics) it usually has little to do with their position and everything to do with their basic makeup.

When it comes right down to it, most of us are trying to get a handle on what is real for us. It's just that it might not be exactly the same thing, person to person. I sort of like the diversity.

JL
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Nov 24, 2012 - 02:30pm PT
Ah, quit being so blatantly naive, John.

It's a societal affair. A cultural thing. A slippery slope.

And the cultural Marxists like it that way. Break down the family, then society, and then the country.

But I keep asking, "what then, what do they want?"
Borut

climber
french, spider, cheater
Nov 24, 2012 - 02:37pm PT
ah the marxists... : the easiest is to corrupt (to break down) the person, the individuals, and then everything breaks down, of course

the bourgeoisie can be either marxist, anti marxist, whatever
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Nov 24, 2012 - 03:07pm PT
the bourgeoisie can be either marxist, anti marxist, whatever


or free, independent, and unburdened by gov't.

Largo probably has a big taste of state Marxism down there in Venezuela. They always start small. And the cancer grows.
Borut

climber
french, spider, cheater
Nov 24, 2012 - 03:12pm PT
I see, bluering, you must be some sort of a national socialist then.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Nov 24, 2012 - 03:17pm PT
Nationalist, maybe, but you can keep the Socialist part. That don't taste too good...
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Nov 24, 2012 - 03:19pm PT
John has it right.

What another human does has no effect on me.

And burprang is his usual self. Adding dictators names to sh#t adds nothing to the content of your writings.

How about this…. you should clearly state why your homophobia is on the right side of history. So far you've done little to convince anyone of anything other than how dumb a human can be and still give the impression of just being ignorant.

bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Nov 24, 2012 - 03:23pm PT
How about this…. you should clearly state why your homophobia is on the right side of history. So far you've done little to convince anyone of anything other than how dumb a human can be and still give the impression of just being ignorant.

Homophobic? WTF are you talking about? Now I'm a gay-hater?.

You are a f*#king weirdo, bro. And you just ruined the party....
Borut

climber
french, spider, cheater
Nov 24, 2012 - 03:23pm PT
Thanks for the Socialism, bluering, but I try to avoid all 'isms'.
Is there anything else you don't need?
dave goodwin

climber
carson city, nv
Nov 24, 2012 - 03:23pm PT
Bluering-

Earlier you posted "religion is a personal matter". So why do the religious folks feel compelled to come to my house and push their agendas?

Never had an atheist come knock on my door.

I am personally agnostic because I am humble enough to admit I don't know what the truth is. As time goes by and the more I learn, I start to side with the atheist!

Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Nov 24, 2012 - 03:58pm PT
Sorry blugag,

I should have more clearly shown what you wrote and how I cam to the conclusion that you are homophobic:
Ah, quit being so blatantly naive, John.

It's a societal affair. A cultural thing. A slippery slope.

And the cultural Marxists like it that way. Break down the family, then society, and then the country.

But I keep asking, "what then, what do they want?"

And of course, this comment stems form John Longs post:

Nov 24, 2012 - 11:22am PT
It's a curious psychological thing that people feel threatened by those who do not believe as they believe (and act), as though someone else has some direct effect on reality, or is encroaching on their life in some meaningful, negative way.

For example, I've always wondered why folk get so bent about gay people being gay and doing what they do - and lest we straight peeps stop them, they will cheapen marriage, corrupt the unwitting and draw the weak directly into buggery and bushwhacking.

I don't see it. Never once when I've been with a girl have I felt like I was being done out of something or was in some way influenced by what the gay folks were doing down the road. And not once in all the times I have gone into a zendo have I had my experience compromised by an atheist. When people are difficult or insistent (fanatics) it usually has little to do with their position and everything to do with their basic makeup.

When it comes right down to it, most of us are trying to get a handle on what is real for us. It's just that it might not be exactly the same thing, person to person. I sort of like the diversity.

JL


 so, blu, were you just being a dumbass when you said John was being "naive"?

what a f*#king twit
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Nov 24, 2012 - 04:03pm PT
Never had an atheist come knock on my door.

What the hell is an atheist going to say? He believes in nothing. I don't understand how you can poise that question? Duh?

Christians try to preach the word of God. WTF is an atheist going to preach?

Stupid question, bra.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Nov 24, 2012 - 04:07pm PT

so, blu, were you just being a dumbass when you said John was being "naive"?

what a f*#king twit


You're getting weird, bro. And I'd suggest to back off. I don't even know where you're going.

You seem to have way too much hate bottled up. Settle down.
dave goodwin

climber
carson city, nv
Nov 24, 2012 - 04:13pm PT
The comment that atheist never come to my door, was not a question, but a matter of fact.

So why do believers feel it necessary to come visit if it is a personal matter?


Captain...or Skully

climber
Nov 24, 2012 - 04:16pm PT
Because they're lying. They want to control you, just like their "sheep".
splitter

Trad climber
Cali Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
Nov 24, 2012 - 04:18pm PT
dave goodwin - So why do believers feel its necessary to come visit...!
I have been a believer since I was 18 and have never had another "believer" come to my door in over 40 years! I have had Jehovah Witnesses and Mormon missionaries come to my door though! It is not a customary practice of Xtians to go to door (if your referring to "believers" as the evangelical/born again)!
dave goodwin

climber
carson city, nv
Nov 24, 2012 - 04:19pm PT
What the hell is an atheist going to say? He believes in nothing. - blue

They most likely believe in science and facts?
Captain...or Skully

climber
Nov 24, 2012 - 04:20pm PT
Xtians sounds like an Alien Race.

Thanks for the ringing endorsement, Blue. I "believe" in real stuff.
No magic. Keep yer hocus pocus.
dave goodwin

climber
carson city, nv
Nov 24, 2012 - 04:23pm PT
Splitter-

The Christians have come to my house, as well as others too.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Nov 24, 2012 - 04:27pm PT
I don't know what to say.

If fags came door-to-door, you guys would say, "That's cool, you're hip!", but heaven forbid a Mormon or Christian come ask for your love in prayer!

Quote me on that!
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Nov 24, 2012 - 04:29pm PT
If fags came door-to-door, you guys would say, "That's cool, you're hip!", but heaven forbid a Mormon or Christian come ask for your love in prayer!

You're a doofus Bluering. Beyond help. You pick fights and don't listen to differing opinions.

I pity you.
splitter

Trad climber
Cali Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
Nov 24, 2012 - 04:30pm PT
Xtians sounds like an alien race.
LOL!

I feel like one, at times!

"Beloved, as aliens and strangers in this world...!" 1 Peter 2:11

"They are not of the world even as I am not of the world." JC

"You are in the world, but not of the world!"

World = world system!

edit: Dave G - i don't doubt that I'm sure they have (i'v heard ones talk about doing it), i was just saying it is not a customary practice like it is with JW's or Mormons (part of what they are expected/instructed to do). Christians mainly focus on places out in the public. ie, beaches, parks, etc., but hardly even do that anymore!

Regardless, I know how you must feel when someone comes to your door, because I feel the same way when JW's or Mormons come (or other Christians, for that matter).

It IS annoying, to say the least!
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Nov 24, 2012 - 04:31pm PT
What the hell is an atheist going to say?

 What if I told you it was possible to be free from all guilt associated with an imaginary friend?

[quote}He believes in nothing.
 Not true. How about believing in things we can see, touch, taste, hear… How about "not the imaginary friend" scenario that the religious try to sell?

I don't understand how you can poise that question? Duh?

 it seems to me that that is what you understand the most…Duh. (BTW - 'poise' has to do with posture. I think you meant 'pose'? Right?

Christians try to preach the word of God.

 wow… You really are a christian right bluball? That would explain the lack of education and the amount of guesswork you post on the daily. Also, christians fail in the attempts to 'preach the word of god' when they don't follow what they preach. They don't stone people who have had affairs, they don't stone unruly children, they don't burn witches among many other things that their god had prescribed for them to do in order to make it into heaven. This equals fail in my book


WTF is an atheist going to preach?

Stupid question, bra.

 how about thinking for yourself? asking questions that others may not want to give the answers to because it might mean admitting the whole show is made up and means little to nothing in the overall scheme of things.




Post post edit:

If fags came door-to-door, you guys would say, "That's cool, you're hip!", but heaven forbid a Mormon or Christian come ask for your love in prayer!


 the fags have reason and self respect along with accountability…. they'd never do what you christians do
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Nov 24, 2012 - 04:32pm PT
Oh Oh....brandon captured it!!!!!
dave goodwin

climber
carson city, nv
Nov 24, 2012 - 04:32pm PT
I don't want anyone coming to my door telling me what to think! Remember it is suppose to be a personal matter.

bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Nov 24, 2012 - 04:36pm PT
how about thinking for yourself? asking questions that others may not want to give the answers to because it might mean admitting the whole show is made up and means little to nothing in the overall scheme of things.


This is yer problem. You think you have all knowledge. I realize I do not. And I've seen lots of sh#t in many different countries. This is the best deal going.

And you appear to me to be full of sh#t. I mean that kindly. But you are full of sh#t.
splitter

Trad climber
Cali Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
Nov 24, 2012 - 04:43pm PT
I agree with Dave G, et al!

I think it is bad form to go to ones home/private residence to preach, evangelize & whatever else (not sure what JW's & Mormons call it). It's an evasion of privacy, imo! Out in public you can approach people or hand them something if you want, but their home is their castle and should be respected as so!
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Nov 24, 2012 - 04:45pm PT
This is yer problem. You think you have all knowledge. I realize I do not. And I've seen lots of sh#t in many different countries. This is the best deal going.

And you appear to me to be full of sh#t. I mean that kindly. But you are full of sh#t.


 Actually blah, I don't know sh#t. What's more is I know I don't know sh#t. Give me any christian who is willing to admit that to themselves and I'll show you one that might be trusted with a penny. Until then, christians fail in that they tend to say they know the mind of god (the imaginary friend many of them seem to have)

As if you would know the difference
dave goodwin

climber
carson city, nv
Nov 24, 2012 - 04:50pm PT
Right on splitter.

Being agnostic I am very open minded and like to converse on the subject. My experience is that religious folks want to tell me what is right and wrong, and are not willing to operate on a two way street. It's always their way or the highway!


Blue- you are a classic example of this!!!!

bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Nov 24, 2012 - 04:51pm PT
You KNOW what's weird? Me/you hi-5's in heaven , bra!!!
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Nov 24, 2012 - 04:53pm PT
Hey, Dave. I don't give a f*#k.

You have to choose. not me.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Nov 24, 2012 - 04:55pm PT
I always thought a person's personal beliefs were a strictly personal affair, and once they became about the other guy, we were hurled out of the personal and into a tug of war. The metaphor for this is two bald guys arguing over a comb.

JL
dave goodwin

climber
carson city, nv
Nov 24, 2012 - 05:05pm PT
Yeah, you probably don't care! But you do get worked up easily. You should get outside and stay of ST as it would be good for your blood pressure.

And no I don't need to choose! When I am dead the choice has already been made. It will either be the after life, or worm dirt!
Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
Nov 24, 2012 - 05:17pm PT
I love it when Mormons come to my door. I see the young men coming up my driveway in their unmistakable "uniforms"...

When my front opens in response to their knock, they come face to face with a rough old man, a fiercely psycho look on his face and an even more psycho attitude - AND A REALLY BIG HANDGUN IN HIS HAND, HANGING DOWN AT HIS SIDE, BUT CLEARLY VISIBLE.

I peer at them over the top of my glasses with a crazy Jack Nicholson look on my face... and they scurry away.

I have such a good laugh after they leave!
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Nov 24, 2012 - 05:49pm PT
For example, I've always wondered why folk get so bent about gay people being gay and doing what they do - and lest we straight peeps stop them, they will cheapen marriage, corrupt the unwitting and draw the weak directly into buggery and bushwhacking.

They call that 'fighting the gay,' and some Clergy and Congressman seem to swing for the fences on that one.


bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Nov 24, 2012 - 06:05pm PT
I like John's libertarian view of things.....

Borut

climber
french, spider, cheater
Dec 1, 2012 - 02:04am PT
BELIEVE IT OR NOT
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Jan 11, 2013 - 10:16pm PT
Here's one of the better ones...

[Click to View YouTube Video]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3lwG4MytSI&NR

Feel it, the wind of change?
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Jan 25, 2013 - 02:46pm PT
Another reason... In the atheist life, you’ll find people just like yourself struggling with life and the problems it poses, e.g., regarding meaning and purpose, injustices and such, and struggling to come to grips with beliefs - theirs and others - in the space-time of history.

(Not to mention struggling to push far far beyond the antiquated Judeo-christian-islamic sensibilities on sex, women... and boobs.)

A few days ago, the “Room for debate” section of the New York Times published a series of six short pieces under the title “Is atheism a religion?”

http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2013/01/22/is-atheism-a-religion

Here's Penn Jillette's take:

http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2013/01/22/is-atheism-a-religion/atheism-should-end-religion-not-replace-it

Change is hard but it's coming around. 20 years ago, no way NYT would have published this piece.
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Jan 25, 2013 - 04:09pm PT
^^^

And Hemmingway, Zappa, Kubrick, Thomas Edison, Warren Buffet, Mark Twain, Edgar Allen Poe, Woody Allen, Marie Curie, Hellen Keller, Freud, and George Orwell.
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Jan 25, 2013 - 04:55pm PT
some of the greatest mass murderers and modern enslavers of all time

Hey, let's leave the Popes out of it.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Jan 25, 2013 - 04:57pm PT
"What should we be worried about?"

This year Edge asked 155 people with very good minds to ask themselves this question.

http://www.edge.org/annual-question/q2013


The earlier post by Donald Thompson reminded me of this entry:

Psychology professor Douglas T. Kenrick fears that idiots are about to take over the world and make it into an idiocracy run by numbskulls.

.....

Food for thought:

If China aggressively pursues eugenics... should the U.S? Should this force the U.S. to also? Is this going to be the next worrisome evolutionary arms race?

Btw, do only evolutionists know what an "evolutionary arms race" is? :)

Welcome to modernity, fasten your seat belts.
zBrown

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Jan 25, 2013 - 06:11pm PT
Jesus Christ
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Jan 25, 2013 - 06:48pm PT
Atheists are neither demonstrably smarter..

Actually, they are. Signifcantly so.

High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Jan 25, 2013 - 10:39pm PT
Moose wrote,
You mean like allowing only selected individuals to procreate or like ethnic cleansing?

"Allowing" suggests prescription, regulations, and law by Big Brother, by the Leviathan.

How about 21st century styled eugenics via (a) sperm and egg donors or (b) more directly through genetic design. Those would be eugenic practices as well. Right?

.....

Moose, check out some of those essays at edge.org. You'd enjoy a few I think. Read the piece by Sam Harris, The Power of Bad Incentives.

http://edge.org/response-detail/23781

It's a thinking man's piece. :)
slayton

Trad climber
Here and There
Jan 26, 2013 - 03:47am PT
Like their cousins,socialists, rarely do atheist own up to the horrible past of official atheism and its awful results in the real world.

How exactly does being an atheist make one cousin (kissing or no) to socialists? The fact that there have been socialists, communists, narcissists, plagiarists, humanists, volcanists, seismologists, economists, or any other members of "ists" out there that might also be atheists does not make make them mutually inclusive. They are not them. Them are not they.

sowr

Trad climber
CA
Jan 26, 2013 - 11:22am PT
I remain leery of people making sweeping statements about either the existence or non-existence of this thing called God. The Universe is rather large and a tad confusing, even for the theoretical physicists, so I'm taking a stab here and saying that we can't know for or against. I find people who state emphatically that there is no God just as irritating and constrained as people who state there is.

Anyway here's my testimony:

When I was a teen I was a devout Christian, and realized the error of my ways high on a mountain when it struck me that the rocks were more than likely a lot older than 5000 years. I therefore felt compelled to chuck the Bible out, while some of the stuff that Jesus said made a lot of sense, and never left me, the notion of the trinity etc. seemed like it had been made up by someone.

It look many years for me to find a "replacement" for religion. I read a lot of philosophy, but it was Olaf Stapledon who really struck a chord with, he and Carl Sagan gave me my cosmic view of things, plus the pragmatism, and to not make sweeping statements about things we cannot understand.

So therefore I reject both atheism and religion, and try and form my own vision, most suited to me. I don't discount god, but neither to I accept this notion. I certainly reject religion.

I'll keep looking knowing that I'll never know.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Jan 26, 2013 - 12:29pm PT
There is a G-d.

His testimony surrounds all of us throughout the Universe. There is no excuse.


Psalm 14:1 (KJV Cambridge Ed.)
"> The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good."

1 Corinthians 3:19 (KJV Cambridge Ed.)
"For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness."


Romans 1:20 (KJV Cambridge Ed.)
"For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:"



Atheism will get you nowhere.



Edit fo HFCS:

There is only one G-d ... the others are impostors of the Fallen Angel type. Read Dr. Michael Heiser, a Hebrew Scholar. There are other gods. Small g. But there is only one G-D. The G-D.

G-d: Hashem Adonai Elohim

His personal name -- the tetragrammaton, not to be pronounced out of respect.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Jan 26, 2013 - 12:34pm PT
Sour's next step - if he were interested - would be to distinguish between "god" in the abstract and "God Jehovah" the god of the ancient Hebrews and modern Christians and Muslims.

Last I checked, this was largely a Christian nation when it comes to religion. So when Christians ref "god" they are not referencing Poseidon or Amon-Re or Marduk or a thousand others. And they're certainly not referencing the abstract nonpersonal higher power ("God") that some famous scientists have called God as a metaphor for natural laws or cosmic order.

Jehovah's an ancient local god, no more or less than the others. If Sour's not an "atheist" regarding Apollo or Artemis then really what does that say. What goes for the ancient local Greek gods goes for the ancient local Hebrew gods - esp when you take into account cross-study in a plurality of theologies and theisms and when you set aside cultural bias.

Largely because of Christianity and the dominance of Jehovah (as opposed to Quetzalcoatl or Wotan) in America, this culture of red, white and blue, sadly, is every bit as theologically illiterate as it is scientifically illiterate.

But times are changing. Hopefully future generations will be wiser.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Jan 26, 2013 - 01:37pm PT
Bruce, it all depends on what grade level you elect to debate.

Personally, I like to mix it up some. ;)
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jan 26, 2013 - 06:02pm PT
that would be reincarnation
jstan

climber
Jan 26, 2013 - 06:41pm PT
Where do they send the bad Texans?

Washington

If you listen to Texans, Washington is hell.

so by this definition I feel like I'm agnostic but it seems ridiculous to sit on the fence when so much evidence supports no god and so little evidence supports god. I'm as committed as is reasonable to the belief that there is no god, in the absence of evidence.

If you look at it statistically, the absence of any example where a supernatural force has interfered in an earthly process gives us very high confidence we may assume there is no god at all. Certainly not on earth. Now the fact that a god, if it exists has infinite power, allows great confidence there is no activity of a god anywhere. God is, supposedly built in our image and reportedly very concerned with us. If it had any power it would surely exert some of that power here. Nada.

I think I may have seen a reason why homo sapiens went to the trouble of constructing all of these gods. I saw a power line with dozens of birds perched on it, ready for any hawk that was hungry. If creatures like birds, and us for that matter, are always grouped together in some number, our odds of survival increase proportionately. So we create churches held together by some artificial means, so that we won't be alone and a target for predators.

Our banking system that has an implacable appetite and allows all the birds to be taken in one swoop has defeated that strategy, but we won't go into that here.

Homer

Mountain climber
742 Evergreen Terrace
Feb 7, 2013 - 09:13pm PT
If you look at it statistically, the absence of any example where a supernatural force has interfered in an earthly process gives us very high confidence we may assume there is no god at all.

I'm not very good at understanding that. What do the statistics say about how often we should expect to see examples of supernatural forces interfering in an earthly process in a reality where god exists, versus how often we should expect to see examples of supernatural forces interfering in an earthly process in a reality where god doesn't exist? What exactly does our evidence tell us?

It seems to me like we just have a need to fill in the blanks of our incomplete information using whatever tool is convenient - whether that's blind faith, or survivor bias, or confirmation bias, or whatever belief system we prefer.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Feb 19, 2013 - 11:23am PT
What's trending?

So you're an atheist, you're in good company.

http://www.thecrimson.com/article/2013/2/18/harvard-atheist-week/

.....

“Promises, covenants, and oaths”—the good faith that binds together civil society—“can have no hold on an atheist.”

Who said it?
Who said it speaks volumes.

Even today, seven state constitutions technically forbid atheists from holding public office.


Another reason to like the atheist life: It's a golden opportunity to rebel - to break through - and to help set the ships of things to rights.
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Feb 19, 2013 - 11:53am PT
major component of blind faith is willingly engaging in blindness.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Apr 4, 2013 - 06:40pm PT
Roger Ebert died today.
I know it is coming, and I do not fear it, because I believe there is nothing on the other side of death to fear.

http://www.salon.com/2011/09/15/roger_ebert/

I bequeath myself to the dirt to grow from the grass I love,
If you want me again look for me under your boot-soles.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Apr 4, 2013 - 06:53pm PT
"what came first, tyranasaurus rex or adam and eve. which event has more proof?"...

Actually they coexisted...

Adam was even known to occassionally ride a Tyranasaurus Rex down to the local Circle K...

this is true!

as evidenced by this photo taken of the Creation Museum showing humans and dinos lived, played, ate, and were happy living together

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