Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
phylp
Trad climber
Millbrae, CA
|
|
|
Aug 15, 2012 - 10:32am PT
|
Jim, I don't feel "strongly" about this from a user standpoint because, although I live on the Peninsula, I don't bother to climb outside on Bay Area rock anymore. I go to the gym for a workout and then I go "outside" to climb whereever I want to go.
It just makes me sad from an access standpoint.
It was bolted with those people in mind and is a safe lead
And beginning leaders often have beginning belayers. How long will it take before someone figures out a way to get hurt on a "safe" lead? And is it more likely to be an underage climber who doesn't have the resources to get to the ORG and clip bolts? Whose parents then want to "shut down" the climbing? This is a can of worms I know. People can figure out how to get hurt setting up top rope anchors as well. But it's specifically because this is a rare local resource in an area of high population density that the pros and cons of changes needs to be carefully weighed.
Take care, Phyl
|
|
FTOR
Sport climber
CA
|
|
|
Aug 15, 2012 - 04:55pm PT
|
i had the audacity to do this to a couple of routes i had put up as top ropes at cosumnes long ago. my thinking was, as jim's, that the area, largely a beginners area, could use a couple bolted leads for people to practice on. the locals i heard took great offense and promptly chopped them, thus keeping the area safe from rampant grid bolting.
|
|
Matt
Trad climber
it's all turtles, all the way dooowwwwwnn!!!!!
|
|
|
Aug 16, 2012 - 01:07am PT
|
this thread is way longer than that route
|
|
clustiere
Trad climber
berkeley ca
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 23, 2012 - 06:28pm PT
|
My additional two cents.
It seemed to me that both the first bolt would lead to hitting a ledge and the distance between the second to last and last bolt was both going to lead to rope drag and hitting a ledge. I seems really unnecessary given that indoor gyms have replaced the need to bolt short top rope crags. I fear that other routes will be similarly equipped and that you may be setting a new and unfortunate precedent. Send newbies to Mt. Diablo where leading has a strong precedent. The line bolted to the left of Farewell is similarly unnecessary and I believe only bolted because it was done by the FA party.
|
|
mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
|
|
|
Aug 23, 2012 - 07:13pm PT
|
Jim-
Same BS you were touting on the rapbolting going on at pinnacles.
Funny how you pimp this "Fun credo" everywhere you go.
You just FORCED your mentality/ethic/hardware on the COMMUNITY. Those who frequented the crag, who gave you the OK are not the only members of the tribe.
Talk about narrow minded.
Leave the history alone Jim.
|
|
clustiere
Trad climber
berkeley ca
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 25, 2012 - 07:56pm PT
|
Moss slab next!
|
|
Nate D
climber
San Francisco
|
|
|
Aug 27, 2012 - 12:06am PT
|
Interesting thread. I've seen the curious lead bolts, and they looked well placed, but tempting as it was to clip 'em, having TRd the thing years ago, I simply don't climb enough anymore to manage the pump. Would be a stout first sport lead or first outdoor lead, IMO. I wouldn't put a noob on it, but plenty young guns will likely want to clip those bolts now that they are there, even if not up to the task.
Thanks for your guide, Jim. I've got the 1992 edition and haven't needed anything new - provided many years of play in the Bay area. Seems I do keep having to update the bolt counts, which I suppose is inevitable. Do you happen to know who put in the couple new 2-3 bolt lines on the east face of the Egg?
|
|
KabalaArch
Trad climber
Starlite, California
|
|
|
Aug 27, 2012 - 07:52pm PT
|
Back at School I slipped off of "No Fall Wall" at IR, around the back of it. Near the top of the slab, which I was using to practice for a GPA route, my ratty EB rands gave out. Made a lunge to the right, and grabbed a jug on the overhanging, but easy, dihedral. And greased.
The landing ledge gave me a hairline fib fracture.
Since I'd taken AC Transit to get to the boulder from my apt on Telegraph, that was my ride home. Started to hurt later, after a bunch of asprin, so I walked across the street to Alta Bates for an X-ray.
|
|
KabalaArch
Trad climber
Starlite, California
|
|
|
Aug 28, 2012 - 04:51pm PT
|
Overhanging?
Ja, ist guntenpumpen!
Just joking - No Fall is a steep, glassy slab, pretty much on the due W exposure of IR. It's only about 15' high, rising above a good ledge, which is itself a couple few feet above grade. It's bounded to its right by a dihedral which overhangs a few degrees beyond vertical, which I guess is pretty easy on account of lots of incuts. Pretty athletic save, I'd say, to instantly rotate 90* right and latch a jug. As if in slo mo, I watched my latched fingers uncurl themselves from a catch that, were it baseball, would have landed me the MVP, had I stuck it. But I landed on the ledge instead.
Urban lore has it that a bounce from the landing ledge has dished out some spiral cervical fractures, hence the problem's name.
I'd guess, in retrospect, that the dihedral itself isn't very hard...I'd routinely downclimb it after summiting the W side problems.
And yet, when I first began, we used Goldline, first, then a 30' stretch of 8 mil perlon, replete with a single waist loop on a bowline, to TR the book. Which, apropos of this thread, is how a more experienced climber who was trolling for a nOOB, became my 1st, and possibly best, partner.
Tom was to show me yet another friction problem, about 150' right of No Fall - sketch 5.7, and committing.
I guess I forgot to draw any conclusion from my post: if sport climbers, or any climbers at all, wish to find the lead, I think they should leave the HDWR/ropes at home until they visit YOS or Pinns.
Before I got all technical and one thing and another, I used to go to IR thinking I was "practicing" for 3rd Sierra summits (which can actually involve bits and pieces of 5.9). I used to climb "Beginner's Crack" in waffle stompers - one day I pitched from quite near the top. (There used to be, and prolly still is, a vertical pounded in flush about 1/2 way up) No idea about PA's - aka "roller skates." Some guys, as I was to learn, were still in Kronhoffers, soled w/ "cat's paws."
BTW, I've met and known Dick Leonard and David Brower. But this ain't the '30s, guys. No bolts, for any reason, are needed at the Berkeley boulders, Mts Tam/Diablo. If any concerned wish to lead, I'd submit that the dues are payable when you do.
|
|
Mr_T
Trad climber
Northern California
|
|
|
Aug 28, 2012 - 05:08pm PT
|
On second though, leave the bolts. Whatever.
|
|
tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
|
|
|
Aug 28, 2012 - 05:09pm PT
|
This whole argument sounds so feckin weak. Someone bolted a few TR problems so that they can be lead.. BFD........ ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
|
|
Mungeclimber
Trad climber
the crowd MUST BE MOCKED...Mocked I tell you.
|
|
|
Aug 28, 2012 - 06:10pm PT
|
Good context point Phyl about population density as a factor to access.
I don't think it matters who put the bolts in. Though people tend to shout less at folks they know about such things.
I don't think I've been there but twice, so I'd weigh my opinion accordingly, but if the route had been solo'd before, wouldn't the history of the style of the area be considered ground up (unless considered a strictly "Top Rope" area)? Did the bolts go in ground up?
If not, since it's not a designated top down area, I say add the bolts, just put them in ground up, by someone that knows how to drill, unless there is evidence of a population density issue about bolting and not just a theory that it wouldn't go well.
Some thoughts,
M
|
|
kev
climber
A pile of dirt.
|
|
|
Aug 28, 2012 - 06:47pm PT
|
Jim,
Although bold it is leadable with natural pro. I'm sure it's been done many times over the years but regardless I know it's been done before. Apologize for retrobolting and remove your bolts so someone else doesn't have to come clean up after you.
kev
|
|
Cbeezy
Trad climber
Berkeley
|
|
|
Sep 22, 2012 - 10:14pm PT
|
I climbed at Cragmont today and was shocked to see this route bolted. The Berkeley rocks are known for bouldering & top roping. You definitely imposed your personal 'ethics' on the local climbing community.
For what it's worth I grew up, learned to climb and still live in Berkeley. I didn't hear anyone asking around if it was okay to start retro bolting routes...
Chop em & do a good job.
Charlie
A shot I took of FTH pre-bolting
http://www.flickr.com/photos/26712210@N05/4362075846/
|
|
jnaftzger
Social climber
Berkeley
|
|
|
Sep 23, 2012 - 08:59pm PT
|
I guess if lead climbing bolts get chopped the top rope bolts should be removed with them. There's natural pro for a top rope.
And why should a frikin top rope trump a lead climb, I vote leave them.
|
|
zBrown
Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
|
|
|
Sep 23, 2012 - 10:36pm PT
|
Another take:
Cragmont Climbing Club - History
Leonard, by now the leader, used his piton hammer to knock "a series of nicks" on the knife edge. These manmade footholds allowed him to move upward about twenty feet without placing much outward strain on the Flake, and soon Leonard waved to his companions from the top of the pitch. The trio reached the top a few hours later.
The three men thought nothing of altering the rock to suit their needs. "Safety first" was their motto,
http://www.cragmontclimbingclub.org/history
|
|
clustiere
Trad climber
berkeley ca
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 13, 2012 - 09:20pm PT
|
Three new bolted routes.
|
|
Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
|
|
|
Oct 14, 2012 - 08:36pm PT
|
I have no say in this bolting debate, however…
“I've also taught 100s of kids to climb there (Cal Adventures kids camps in the summer in the 80s for about five years). Lots of those kids are still climbing today, and yes, I'm proud of that.”
Yes, they are still climbing today. : )
(Well… tomorrow, actually…)
Thanks, Jim!
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!