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dfinnecy
Social climber
'stralia
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Aug 13, 2012 - 12:36am PT
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tarek wrote:
Anyhow, I didn't do anything with those bolts years ago (extra large metolius hangers and all) because I figured they were used to teach classes and it just seemed like too much of an ego move to chop.
I've thought the same thing, oh, those bolts are for teaching so they are OK. Afterall, it is good to introduce people to climbing. After thinking on it more my opinion has changed 100%. Bolts for classes set students expectations and make the extreeme! rock! climbing! hobby accessible. No need to learn a craft or take responsibility for yours and your partners safety, any dope can clip a rope.
I taught climbing classes for a bit of time. TBH more just experience days, get a kid on a rope, have them rappel, belay, climb, cry and whimper, taste a bit of success. Good times.
We built natural anchors, massively redundant, inconvenient spider webs using ridiculous amounts of webbing and gear. Part of the experience was talking the group through the anchor set up, to inspire confidence and to show the kids, 'this is how it's done'.
I can't claim a higher ethos than other outfits, it was just the way the group I was with ran shop. We could build anchors which satisfied the insurance companies and provided top ropes. What reason was there to put in bolts?
The pursuit and commodification of convenience is at the root of so many of the ills of the world. Sigh.
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Mr_T
Trad climber
Northern California
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Aug 13, 2012 - 12:37am PT
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I normally call out most choppers as either the bolting taliban (as in the case of chopping the first bolt of Serenity Crack) or old dogs who can't handle new/better kids on their turf. And I almost always advocate leaving the bolts in. But WTF - four bolts on Farewell to Arms at Craigmont?! You could lead that as an R/X with one cam half way up. I'm guessing it's been soloed countless times and it'd be a crap sport lead, a piss poor choice for teaching leading on. Whoever did that is just a moron.
Chop away, but do it right.
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Ratagonia
Social climber
Mt Carmel, Utah
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Aug 13, 2012 - 12:44am PT
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I've heard you can heat the glue up with a propane torch, and spin the bolt out. Can also fill the bolt hanger with glue, and leave a note asking for contact.
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shipoopoi
Big Wall climber
oakland
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Aug 13, 2012 - 12:45am PT
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i don't buy the philosophy that cragmont rock in berkeley is a chosspile. rather, it is a gem of the bay area, with some superb, classic climbs, and plenty of bolts and trees on top for anchoring. i would hate to see this place made into a little sport climbing area, its sets a bad example for other bay area crags.
as for farewell to arms, i'm not that familiar with it, but let's just see what people have to say about the new bolts, and have more discussion.
ss
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bergbryce
Mountain climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
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Aug 13, 2012 - 12:57am PT
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Keep an open eye on those Bay Area crags then... There was a new bolted line put up in Pine Creek at Diablo which crossed Yabba Dabba Dudes, a route that's been there for a good while.
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Aug 13, 2012 - 01:06am PT
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i don't buy the philosophy that cragmont rock in berkeley is a chosspile. rather, it is a gem of the bay area Actually the two opinions are not mutually exclusive...at least not in the Bay Area...
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tarek
climber
berkeley
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Aug 13, 2012 - 01:09am PT
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Yeah, Steve, I call it choss just because of the nature of the rock in places, but I learned to climb there, learned to "highball" there, and love the feeling of the place. Scott's traverse, GP, as I mentioned, looks terrible but is fantastic. On the main climbs, though, some of the rock is bullet.
dfinnecy, I agree. We learned something setting anchors up there. Even if they were half off of trees.
You can learn to sport lead in a gym these days quite adequately.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Aug 13, 2012 - 03:59pm PT
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The best you could do given the glue in and surrounding chiseling is to bend the bolts over
Actually, a cleaner option is to use a dremel tool to cut the bolts off flush to the surface.
We did this once a couple of years ago, when we inadvertantly placed a belay anchor very close to an existing route.
I like the idea of dissolving/melting the glue, but don't know if that would work. Test on the same glue elsewhere first, I guess....
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Aug 13, 2012 - 04:29pm PT
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I call it choss
heh
indeed. choss is pretty personal. but if cragmont doesn't qualify, then we're moving the bar down pretty low.
the best arguments i can see so far against the bolting--
1. it was done without input from at least some locals who actually care about climbing at cragmont; and
2. n00bs can practice leading in the gym and so practice crags should be clean climbing only.
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all in jim
climber
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Aug 14, 2012 - 10:42am PT
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I put the bolts in.
I apologize to those who are offended.
Please consider the following before you do any chopping.
If the new bolts lead to grid-bolting (does that seem hysterical to anyone else?) I will remove the bolts myself.
At the same time I'm stoked for the dozen (or so) people I've seen lead the climb and lower off with pumped arms and huge smiles on their faces - for some (younger climbers) it was their first lead, for others it was their first 5.10 lead. I'm sure there have been others who have enjoyed leading it during the 4 months the bolts have been in.
I didn't ask here at Supertopo because I don't believe this site is representative of the climbing community as a whole.
I instead asked at Cragmont, a place I have climbed at perhaps 1000 times over the past 33 years. The overwhelming response I received (I've put the idea out there to dozens of people over the years) is that it was a great idea and would be an ideal spot for fledgling leaders to practice. It was bolted with those people in mind and is a safe lead, contrary to what's been posted here by people who have not lead it.
I learned to climb at Cragmont Rock. I've also taught 100s of kids to climb there (Cal Adventures kids camps in the summer in the 80s for about five years). Lots of those kids are still climbing today, and yes, I'm proud of that.
I love introducing people to climbing and I can't think of a better spot than Cragmont Park... can you? I don't think the gym is a better alternative. Cragmont has been used as a teaching spot since the thirties. You can practice top roping, rappelling, lead (gear) climbing and aid climbing there. Now you can make your first bolted lead there. Farewell to Arms is a steep climb, about 50 feet high on the far left side of the cliff. Everybody has to make their first lead somewhere... would you rather it be at Lover's Leap (that's where mine was, on a crowded sunday 32 years ago, and yes, I did epic and create a cluster - I should have practiced on those cracks at Cragmont first...).
If your main objection is that it is a sport climb, well, I don't really know what to say to that other than sport climbing is part of most people's climbing experience these days. Is that reason enough to remove a climb people are enjoying?
Ok, flame away!
Jim Thornburg
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all in jim
climber
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Aug 14, 2012 - 11:00am PT
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Randy,
Thats a good point. I'm going to take a beating here at supertopo, no doubt.
You can still top rope the climb, obviously.
Can you elaborate on why you think the bolts are bad, though? I think it's more fun to lead than tr. (I've also lead it on gear (there isn't much) and soloed it).
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Aug 14, 2012 - 11:02am PT
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Maybe we should bolt Nate's, make it harder.
This is just as lame.
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all in jim
climber
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Aug 14, 2012 - 11:11am PT
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Right Kelly, next I will bolt Nats.
C'mon! You've placed more bolts than I have, why would you take a shot like that?
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Aug 14, 2012 - 11:14am PT
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Jim,
It's not that the bolts on this one small piece of rock are bad. But consider, bolting this small crag sends the message that it's OK to bolt anything, and everything.
From the gym, to city choss, to the hills and beyond.
Also to consider, this crag is an historic climbing location. Bolts had never been used in past generations, by folks whose names we all know.
2:1, this becomes one of the most lead routes in the country.
So yes, there is that positive side.
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all in jim
climber
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Aug 14, 2012 - 11:30am PT
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There is another bolted route to the left of Farewell to Arms that has been there as long as I've been climbing. It's a weird route, but lead-able and aid-able. It's called Wipeout or something, 4 or 5 bolts.
I certainly was not trying to send a message that indiscriminate bolting is ok. I don't think it will send that message more than any other bolted route.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Aug 14, 2012 - 11:55am PT
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Jim,
First, I'm glad to hear that you, a local climber there for years, did the work. We can all count on the bolts being solid, and in the best locations.
I've climbed there a few times. For me, one of the most fun things about that rusted-out old crag was its place in the history of California climbing. I thought it was cool, I was learning the same way the old masters had done it.
The bolting of Farewell was inevitable. In 10 or 15 years, nobody's gonna remember who climbed there in the past, nor will they care. Still, how cool it would be to climb there in 20, 30 years, and have it be the same as it ever was.
I'm always concerned that exuberant youth will see this as a green light to bolting, and why not bolt other things like it. Nat's, ;-), is obviously an exaggeration. But I know some boulder problems nearby that I was too shy to do, and boy, I would have loved to have lead them.
:- kelly
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tarek
climber
berkeley
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Aug 14, 2012 - 12:19pm PT
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Let's keep respect in the discussion. (And asking on ST would have been a farce.) It makes a big difference to me who put the bolts in. I was concerned that it might be someone with much less experience in the area, ready for more, a perfectly reasonable fear. And, yeah, I haven't been back there in several months.
Jim, you have to admit, it could be really tempting to put in 2 bolts on the 5.9, or 4 bolts on the 5.8, left of the 5.4 crack, or a bolt to protect the high 10d crux. From what you've said, I don't think you'd like that, correct?
Maybe you can see why someone would object to having the big metolius hangered bolts right on the cliff face, as they bouldered past. The clear local tradition is to have bolts for tr s on top of the cliff.
I don't think it's that big of a deal to leave one new lead route, if it ends there. But if someone comes along and adds more lead bolts, only arbitrary decisions would allow their removal--whether based on a committee or seniority in the area. And everyone chafes against arbitrary decisions for good reason.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Aug 14, 2012 - 12:45pm PT
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I instead asked at Cragmont, a place I have climbed at perhaps 1000 times over the past 33 years. The overwhelming response I received (I've put the idea out there to dozens of people over the years) is that it was a great idea and would be an ideal spot for fledgling leaders to practice. It was bolted with those people in mind and is a safe lead, contrary to what's been posted here by people who have not lead it.
thanks for the detail. and yr intuition about not posting on st ahead of time was obviously sound.
i am most impressed by the fact that you have climbed at cragmont a thousand times. that's pretty heroic.like papciak at mortar.
wish i had yr motivation cheers
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slobmonster
Trad climber
OAK (nee NH)
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Aug 15, 2012 - 01:39am PT
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Cat's outta the bag, Jim.
You might have some solid underpinnings to your stated reasons for bolting the route, but I predict that they won't be shared.
Maybe those glue-ins would have been better (and less controversially) been utilized as TR anchors?
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James
climber
My twin brother's laundry room
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Aug 15, 2012 - 02:34am PT
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Bolt the planet
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