Bolting at Cragmont, Berkeley

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Messages 21 - 40 of total 73 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
tarek

climber
berkeley
Aug 12, 2012 - 03:37pm PT
after the "clean revolution" I'm not sure whether it's ok to beat pins anywhere other than at a quarry for practice. You just get on a route that requires them and go.

if you did that at Cragmont, it would change the nature of routes I free climb, and that would be...well, it'd be a damn shame. Likewise, bolting any of the main faces there for leading would be unacceptable to me, but I'm just one person. Never knew any route names but I guess Farewell to Arms is down at the end/West?

Why not grid bolt the whole place? Could easily be done from stances (1) Because even choss deserves some love, (2) Enough people have fond feelings about how the rock looks that they'd be red hot pissed.

Climbing there even has a vaguely Valley-like feeling for the way the trees are and so on, not to be experienced elsewhere in Burke.
The user formerly known as stzzo

climber
Sneaking up behind you
Aug 12, 2012 - 04:06pm PT
Crasic, as part of the current UC Hiking Club (now named CHAOS), I'm very curious about those record books.
doughnutnational

Gym climber
its nice here in the spring
Aug 12, 2012 - 05:17pm PT
Let em bolt that choss up, then maybe they'll less bolts to bring over here.
crasic

climber
Aug 12, 2012 - 08:02pm PT
Crasic, as part of the current UC Hiking Club (now named CHAOS), I'm very curious about those record books.

After our recent shed clean out I took the legacy archive (big yellow crate) home to sort, catalogue and partially scan/photograph. I'm a current member, what do you want to know?

edit: And just to clarify, I'm not saying I'm in favor of bolting this climb or gridbolting the whole rock, I guess I was just trying to see, maybe, in what framework this might be understood if not accepted, devil's advocate if you will. If the bolter did his work in order to turn the TR route into a beginner lead, well, like I said, that is in the spirit of the place even though it may not be in very good style.
The user formerly known as stzzo

climber
Sneaking up behind you
Aug 12, 2012 - 08:26pm PT
After our recent shed clean out I took the legacy archive (big yellow crate) home to sort, catalogue and partially scan/photograph. I'm a current member, what do you want to know?

Haha. Mostly, I wanted to get more info into the hands of the guy who just took all the books out of the gear shed and is embarking on researching the club's history ;-).

I thought you were an old member of the UC Hiking Club who had some private books.

I guess we'll meet sooner or later, but now that I know who you are, I don't need more information on the log books...

Kent
tarek

climber
berkeley
Aug 12, 2012 - 09:09pm PT
Well, I think you have it about right, Crasic. Hopefully the helpful bolter won't decide that one success should beget another. I'd favor removal of any bolts that appear on the other climbs.

btw, Gomer's Pile, the hardest of the 3 traverses in Berkeley is on Cragmont choss, has rules, "no cracks or crack-related holds" and is also a stellar problem. I hope no one decides it's "improvable" because it looks like "crap."
dfinnecy

Social climber
'stralia
Aug 12, 2012 - 09:36pm PT
tarek wrote:
Anyhow, I didn't do anything with those bolts years ago (extra large metolius hangers and all) because I figured they were used to teach classes and it just seemed like too much of an ego move to chop.

I've thought the same thing, oh, those bolts are for teaching so they are OK. Afterall, it is good to introduce people to climbing. After thinking on it more my opinion has changed 100%. Bolts for classes set students expectations and make the extreeme! rock! climbing! hobby accessible. No need to learn a craft or take responsibility for yours and your partners safety, any dope can clip a rope.

I taught climbing classes for a bit of time. TBH more just experience days, get a kid on a rope, have them rappel, belay, climb, cry and whimper, taste a bit of success. Good times.

We built natural anchors, massively redundant, inconvenient spider webs using ridiculous amounts of webbing and gear. Part of the experience was talking the group through the anchor set up, to inspire confidence and to show the kids, 'this is how it's done'.

I can't claim a higher ethos than other outfits, it was just the way the group I was with ran shop. We could build anchors which satisfied the insurance companies and provided top ropes. What reason was there to put in bolts?

The pursuit and commodification of convenience is at the root of so many of the ills of the world. Sigh.
Mr_T

Trad climber
Northern California
Aug 12, 2012 - 09:37pm PT
I normally call out most choppers as either the bolting taliban (as in the case of chopping the first bolt of Serenity Crack) or old dogs who can't handle new/better kids on their turf. And I almost always advocate leaving the bolts in. But WTF - four bolts on Farewell to Arms at Craigmont?! You could lead that as an R/X with one cam half way up. I'm guessing it's been soloed countless times and it'd be a crap sport lead, a piss poor choice for teaching leading on. Whoever did that is just a moron.

Chop away, but do it right.
Ratagonia

Social climber
Mt Carmel, Utah
Aug 12, 2012 - 09:44pm PT
I've heard you can heat the glue up with a propane torch, and spin the bolt out. Can also fill the bolt hanger with glue, and leave a note asking for contact.
shipoopoi

Big Wall climber
oakland
Aug 12, 2012 - 09:45pm PT
i don't buy the philosophy that cragmont rock in berkeley is a chosspile. rather, it is a gem of the bay area, with some superb, classic climbs, and plenty of bolts and trees on top for anchoring. i would hate to see this place made into a little sport climbing area, its sets a bad example for other bay area crags.

as for farewell to arms, i'm not that familiar with it, but let's just see what people have to say about the new bolts, and have more discussion.

ss
bergbryce

Mountain climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
Aug 12, 2012 - 09:57pm PT
Keep an open eye on those Bay Area crags then... There was a new bolted line put up in Pine Creek at Diablo which crossed Yabba Dabba Dudes, a route that's been there for a good while.
Greg Barnes

climber
Aug 12, 2012 - 10:06pm PT
i don't buy the philosophy that cragmont rock in berkeley is a chosspile. rather, it is a gem of the bay area
Actually the two opinions are not mutually exclusive...at least not in the Bay Area...
tarek

climber
berkeley
Aug 12, 2012 - 10:09pm PT
Yeah, Steve, I call it choss just because of the nature of the rock in places, but I learned to climb there, learned to "highball" there, and love the feeling of the place. Scott's traverse, GP, as I mentioned, looks terrible but is fantastic. On the main climbs, though, some of the rock is bullet.

dfinnecy, I agree. We learned something setting anchors up there. Even if they were half off of trees.

You can learn to sport lead in a gym these days quite adequately.
QITNL

climber
Aug 12, 2012 - 11:14pm PT
Since this is a "practice crag," would this be a good route to work on my chopping technique? From stance - no rap chopping, naturally. A Farewell to Bolts, fair game?

And for filling the holes, locals, help me out: what's the correct ratio of epoxy and kitty poo?
Clint Cummins

Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
Aug 13, 2012 - 12:59pm PT
The best you could do given the glue in and surrounding chiseling is to bend the bolts over

Actually, a cleaner option is to use a dremel tool to cut the bolts off flush to the surface.
We did this once a couple of years ago, when we inadvertantly placed a belay anchor very close to an existing route.

I like the idea of dissolving/melting the glue, but don't know if that would work. Test on the same glue elsewhere first, I guess....
klk

Trad climber
cali
Aug 13, 2012 - 01:29pm PT
I call it choss

heh

indeed. choss is pretty personal. but if cragmont doesn't qualify, then we're moving the bar down pretty low.

the best arguments i can see so far against the bolting--

1. it was done without input from at least some locals who actually care about climbing at cragmont; and

2. n00bs can practice leading in the gym and so practice crags should be clean climbing only.
The user formerly known as stzzo

climber
Sneaking up behind you
Aug 13, 2012 - 06:00pm PT
The practice argument can itself be defeated by precedent.

Didn't the traditions created by those "practicers" go through a clean climbing revolution? Now Cragmont is for practicing clean climbing and practicing respect for the FA and local ethics ;-).
all in jim

climber
Aug 14, 2012 - 07:42am PT
I put the bolts in.

I apologize to those who are offended.

Please consider the following before you do any chopping.

If the new bolts lead to grid-bolting (does that seem hysterical to anyone else?) I will remove the bolts myself.

At the same time I'm stoked for the dozen (or so) people I've seen lead the climb and lower off with pumped arms and huge smiles on their faces - for some (younger climbers) it was their first lead, for others it was their first 5.10 lead. I'm sure there have been others who have enjoyed leading it during the 4 months the bolts have been in.

I didn't ask here at Supertopo because I don't believe this site is representative of the climbing community as a whole.

I instead asked at Cragmont, a place I have climbed at perhaps 1000 times over the past 33 years. The overwhelming response I received (I've put the idea out there to dozens of people over the years) is that it was a great idea and would be an ideal spot for fledgling leaders to practice. It was bolted with those people in mind and is a safe lead, contrary to what's been posted here by people who have not lead it.

I learned to climb at Cragmont Rock. I've also taught 100s of kids to climb there (Cal Adventures kids camps in the summer in the 80s for about five years). Lots of those kids are still climbing today, and yes, I'm proud of that.

I love introducing people to climbing and I can't think of a better spot than Cragmont Park... can you? I don't think the gym is a better alternative. Cragmont has been used as a teaching spot since the thirties. You can practice top roping, rappelling, lead (gear) climbing and aid climbing there. Now you can make your first bolted lead there. Farewell to Arms is a steep climb, about 50 feet high on the far left side of the cliff. Everybody has to make their first lead somewhere... would you rather it be at Lover's Leap (that's where mine was, on a crowded sunday 32 years ago, and yes, I did epic and create a cluster - I should have practiced on those cracks at Cragmont first...).

If your main objection is that it is a sport climb, well, I don't really know what to say to that other than sport climbing is part of most people's climbing experience these days. Is that reason enough to remove a climb people are enjoying?

Ok, flame away!

Jim Thornburg
Randisi

Social climber
Dalian, Liaoning
Aug 14, 2012 - 07:49am PT
I remember lots of people, myself included, lowering off with pumped arms and big smiles on top-rope.

You should know better. Just goes to show that experience doesn't always lead to judgment.

Randy Burks
all in jim

climber
Aug 14, 2012 - 08:00am PT
Randy,

Thats a good point. I'm going to take a beating here at supertopo, no doubt.

You can still top rope the climb, obviously.

Can you elaborate on why you think the bolts are bad, though? I think it's more fun to lead than tr. (I've also lead it on gear (there isn't much) and soloed it).
Messages 21 - 40 of total 73 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
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