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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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No sense stacking the odds against yourself, especially when a parent, but pc, I don't see any reason not to push your technical limit as long as the pro is good, often safer on lead than bouldering, imho.
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Mini
Social climber
Bishop, CA
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I think about this stuff a fair amount, as I'm morbidly self obsessed by nature...
One big question I always have is, how much is Attachment versus Love, etc. What does it mean to Love your children? That you protect them from all suffering? Do you think you can insulate them or innoculate them against your death or their own? I mean, don't get me wrong...don't self destruct on them, take care of yourself, etc, but what is it that we are REALLY saying when we say we are trying to hedge our bets against death by not climbing or boating or whatever it is we do because we are alive and able right now? And where does that end? Am I building enough wealth for my child? Does my child have "every" advantage. Am I making them competitive enough? Are they getting into Harvard? Blah blah blah blah...
I don't know... it always ends up being about my ATTACHMENT...either to my own image/ego, pride, fear, mortality, etc. Children need love, not attachment. They are people in progress, independent beings, in need of guidance, love, understanding...for as long as you are here to give it. All the other freaking out is something else and I dare say, counterproductive to building a healthy person.
Anyway. As soon as I figure out how to quit freaking out about it all, I'll let all you other parents know...
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todd-gordon
climber
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Many climbers have children. Being an awesome mom or dad cuts into the climbing, no doubt. It's a balancing act, but can be done with everyone getting their needs met and being happy too. Climbing with kids can work, but lots of things need to be taken into consideration. Kids love to be outside, to travel, explore , see the nature, camp, and kids are fun experts too. Children are light, strong, flexible, and make good climbers too. Camping and climbing as a family can be some quality time. Pushing your kids to "excell" or be "rad" isn't usually a good idea..they are not "you" and they do not think like adults...let them find their own path, and keep climbing fun and interesting. Unhappy children, dangerous situations, family turmoil is not fun or right. Helmets on kids is a must, even helmets at the base to protect from rockfall. Long road trips, countless hours in the car are no good. Always deep in mind your childs needs, physically and mentally. Too cold, too hot, too windy or uncomfortable is tough on kids. Kids need your love and attention, and lots of it. They need healthy food to eat, water or juice to drink, sun screen, and toys. Boulder hopping with kids is dangerous, and keep an eye out for steep drop offs. Take the kids, have a great time, but the KIDS COME FIRST. Sneek in a climb or three, but not at the expense of your kids safety or happiness. Plan well and it can be an awesome experience. While you are out camping in the tent on a romantic moonlite night, many you can make some MORE babies. Maybe if you are stinky rich, bring the nanny. Lots of fun! Climbing is awesome. Kids are awesome.
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todd-gordon
climber
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Another thought is separation. I used to go on 5 month climbing trips.....I wouldn't/couldn't be away from my kids for that long anymore. I would miss them too much, and they would miss me too much too. (Besides... I couldn't afford it anymore, anyways....). Kids love mommy and daddy, and it's a big time thing... spend time with the little ones, .....but still keep climbing....it can be done with success and happiness....(But that 3 month trip to Baffin with the boys is probably off.....)
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pc
climber
East of Seattle
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Jaybro,
I agree. And I guess "at my limit" is another way of saying sketchy. I don't mind climbing hard and falling on a good bolt or a bomber nut and you're right, they're usually safer than bouldering.
BTW To me, this selfish discussion is a personal one. There is no right or wrong. We each "know" what's best for us and our kids. "Heaven" help someone telling me how to be and raise my kids.
pc
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doc bs
Social climber
Northwest
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IS it “safer” to sit on sofa and play video games? I want my kids to know life is not about saving money for retirement. There ARE tons of health risks associated with sedentary lifestyle.
Last summer I climbed Holdless Horror in Tuolomne with my kids (ages 11 and 15). They thought I was nuts when we started out but on the down climb they were SOOOO excited and proud of themselves!
They have a sense of responsibility for safety and critical thinking. Tons of climbers like TODD GORDON enjoy a long healthy life in a “risky sport”. Aren't Alex Lowe's children surrounded by wonderful people who love them – even if dad is not there, he is there - right?
I climb for myself and ALSO for my kids! We should all be free to live a wonderful life!!!
Mom
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JAK
Sport climber
Central NC
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"You been to laurel yet?"
Unfortunately not. I'm in grad school right now, so finding the time to climb is a challenge. I still manage to make it to the gym 2 - 3 times a week and out on real rock (Pilot Mtn, Sauratown are favorites) once every couple of weeks. Usually daytrips on the weekend. Gonna head to Laurel when time allows.
"That part's not selfish at all. I think the title is referring to the possibility of leaving loved ones behind if you get the big chop.
I've thought about this a lot and still do. I've toned it down since my first daughter was born. No backcountry skiing, no climbs at my limit (except bouldering). Pretty simple and leaves lots of fun stuff to do."
It's a fair consideration, but recall that driving your vehicle to the store for milk is far more dangerous than a lifetime of climbing, oddswise. Assuming proper use of protection gear, of course.
The simple fact, as I see it, is that we live in a startlingly unsafe world. Most of these dangers are minimal. Shark attacks, lightning strikes, and deaths from climbing are very very rare.
There are really three points here:
1) Who is more selfish, the climber, or the person requesting they give up the enjoyment and happiness of climbing for that person's ease of mind?
and
2) Many people do things on a daily basis (such as eat fast food) which are more likely to kill you than climbing.
and
3) The death rate globally, as of 2006, is one per person, and we are all going to make it. I'd rather have happy years in between now and the end, and climbing is a part of that happiness. Make of that what you will. I don't consider it selfish.
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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very well put.
It seems, you know, Jak!
I will steal some of that, unless you say otherwise.
Jaybro & KarlDad on a Colorado summit 1969/70?
~35yrs later, another colorado summit, lower but more technical than the first; Natagirl & Jaybro-dad
Not to dis the notion that parents need to take parenthood into consideration before taking risks. Part of the reason I don't eat mammals,or at MacDonalds, or smoke, or do solos that I am likely to crater on. On the other hand it's impossible to eliminate all risk, and a bad example to imply that you can.
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Jay
Trad climber
Fort Mill, SC
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Do your best to minimize risk. Hopefully you and your spouse will find peace in that effort.
This is what I do. I have a life insurance policy that will pay for the house and college tuition if I should make a fatal move. I do not run it out like I used to. I do not solo anything harder than 5.5 or 5.6. I always bring a rope and some gear even on easy long routes that I plan to solo, just in case. If in doubt, rope up. I don’t climb in areas that I know have more frequent rock fall than other places.
I agree with what Todd said about being the good parent. I have a 5, 7 and 17 yuear old boys. My oldest hates rock climbing but loves the outdoors. My younger ones love it though (future belay partners I hope). I have sacrificed years of living the climber life while investing my time onto the wife and kids. I’ve been a football and baseball coach many times, and I’m sure I’ll do it again. Sure I’d rather have been climbing on many of those weekends, but children are more important than rocks. Besides, the rocks aren’t going anywhere, but the kids are. Once they are more established in their own lives, I’ll spend more time in the mountains once again chasing my own sport of passion. Until then it’s only weekend trips here and there and one week long trip a year. This year might be Red Rocks in September. I’m looking forward to that.
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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I've kind of reassessed the whole risk thing after becoming a dad (and a little fatter than I used to be) and after a buddy and I had a close call in the Sierras. We bagged the S. Face of Clyde Minaret no problem but, 50 ft. into the descent, he pulled a big loose block that fell with him 15 ft. onto a ledge and crushed his hip and femur and almost rolled off the ledge for big and fatal air. Thank god for cell phones.
Long and the short of it, since he was never as good of a climber as I and didn't have as much experience on alpine stuff, soloing, etc., I've always rationalized that it wouldn't have happened to me. I think that we tend to believe that only the stupid and unlucky get hurt, but if that was the case then John Harlin, Tom Patey, Derek Hershey, Peter Boardman, Tobin Sorenson, etc., etc. would still be with us. Also, how many other sports have regular obituaries in their magazines.
Not that you shouldn't climb any more, but you have to look at your objective and your skills a bit more critically. Like Todd said, your kids come first. If that means that you climb a bit less and more conservatively then fine. I mean cragging at Josh and the Valley is pretty sane as long as you stay off sketchy routes. I've been climbing since I was 13, so for me a lot of my lifelong dreams are climbing related. Some folks on this thread have suggested that you still should do everything you want to do, but they might be crappy parents and selfish people, or they might not be. It's totally personal. I still need to climb, I just feel the need not to stray too far from home and to keep up safe and sane. I just wish I could get out more often.
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Well for openers, John Harlin's rope broke??? How is that not unlucky???
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nlunstrum
Trad climber
Temporary Flatlander from IN.
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Topic Author's Reply - May 8, 2006 - 07:56pm PT
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I admit that the title for this post was a bit of a troll...wasn't expecting the quality of the posts though. Sounds like there are some wonderful ST parents out there. I can't wait to introduce my son to climbing and I'm hoping that he enjoys it as much as I do. Climb safe and take care,
Nathan
Keep them coming...
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Batrock
Trad climber
Burbank
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Since becoming a father just over 5 years ago my perspective has change dramaticaly.
I used to love to go on long road trips climbing and kayaking. A year after my son was born I went to Costa Rica for a few weeks kayaking. I had planned the trip for a year and was jazzed at the chance to paddle some really great rivers. When I got down there all I could do was think about my wife and son. I wa WAY off my game mentaly as far as kayaking goes, too cautious, to the point it became dangerous. I could not wait to get home and as a result had a lousy trip.
After that trip I realized I had to put climbing and kayaking on the back burner for awhile. It occured to me that if something happened to me while boating or climbing not only would my wife and kids suffer, but that I would miss out on watching my kids grow up. I dont want to miss that.
Shortly after having our first child a fireman I worked with died in a fire and only few weeks later 3 other fireman died in a helicopter crash. I came home and balled my eyes out holding my son after the helicopter crash. I could not imagine not being able to hold my son and daughter, feel there warmth, the smell of there hair, watching them sleep.
These experiences have caused me to slow down a little. I still climb and will teach my kids to climb as my dad taught me but I am not going to stick my neck out like I used to.
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JAK
Sport climber
Central NC
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Jaybro -
Steal away, buddy :) I don't have any plans to publish a philosophy book.
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Conrad
climber
MT
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As a parent raising my best friend's children after a way too close call with death, I've had the "selfish nature of climbing" point of view leveled at myself and my now dead partner Alex. Be it in print, obtuse questions or behind my back it lurks around out there. I still climb and earn a living as a climber to raise three fine young boys Alex left behind.
Accepting a greater level of risk is accepted and venerated in our society as long as it in the course of duty and not by one's own volition. A fireman, policeman and soldier expose themselves to greater levels of risk, as do climbers, but not for "fun". Do it for fun and you're not being a good parent. Is risk for the sake of fun bad?
As one who experiences risk, privation and suffering for enjoyment, I find it is an elemental part of the human DNA. Look back 10 15 & 20 thousand years (400 ~ 800 generations) and we were being chased by sabretooth tigers and following the migration of ungualte herds. In this primal life we had to run risk every day - life was hard. Now with a majority of our nation overweight and out of shape life is soft. At times demanding but not hard. The way in which humans respond to adversity has been the expereintial teacher that has allowed us (humanoids) to progress at such an astonishing rate. Risk has been and will continue to be essential to human evolution.
With this in mind, how does risk fit into modern life? Some of us are still hardwired from primal times to take on more risk (danger). I imagine you are one of these types as you're here - fascinated by climbing. We as climbers continue the long line of hyper risk / danger takers.
As a married fellow I tend to look at risk in a different light. My aperature for objective hazard (the roll of the dice - go as fast as you can through a danger zone type) is much smaller. The chance of getting pegged will eventially catch up. When young and unattached extreme risk seems a little more jusitifiable.
Climbing is, by my expereince, a very deadly game. Do not let the view that it is the same risk as driving, or eating too many Frito Lay products. If you've been climbing for ten years there is a strong chance a climber in your community left physical existence behind. For an enthusiast web chat room I suspect there is a higher level of mortality in the threads than in, say, an orienteering site.
This being said Jenni, my wife and Alex's widow, have taken the kids up the Grand, done the Half Dome via ferrata and are off to Devil's Tower this weekend. We have great fun together.
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pc
climber
East of Seattle
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Thanks for that Conrad. Sounds like you've taken to being a Dad like a climber to a hand crack. Solid.
pc
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oldcragger
Trad climber
Truckee,CA
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After my son was born I cooled it on the free-solos and being on a wall during a lightning storm did cause me to re-evaluate things but I never stopped climbing. Now, after dragging him around climbing areas since he was two the roles are reversed. He's going off to college, I'm losing my climbing partner and I'll be the one at home worrying if he's climbing "safe". At least I know he's been trained well and is doing something he (and I)loves, rather than risking his life with more typical teenage activities.
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elcap-pics
climber
Crestline CA
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GET SOME INSURANCE!!! If you are going to continue with your edgy climbing... I remember when DanO went down... his daughter was left with nothing, literally nothing. People took up a collection... do you think that was enough to take care of that child? The height of irresponsiblity is to leave your family in financial ruin, not to mention emotional ruin. Sure we think the pro is good and that it can't happen to us... but plan ahead as if it was going to happen to you.
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August West
Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
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dirtineye:
"Look august, to die climbing you have to do something really stupid AND be unlucky. You are almost always in control of that situation in simple cragging To die driving is much easier. Other people whose actions are totally out of your control can kill you, as well you your onw fvck ups."
People die each year from doing stupid things and from bad luck. Climbing gives you an additional chance to do both. I've nearly killed myself climbing from both stupid things (ended up in the emergency/ICU room) and bad luck. I'm not taking sides on the "selfish" debates. My parents and sibling would no doubt suffer if I were to bite it climbing, but I don't have a spouse/kids/dependents.
I'm just wondering if climbing is as safe as climbers like to tell themselves.
Comments like...
JAK:
"It's a fair consideration, but recall that driving your vehicle to the store for milk is far more dangerous than a lifetime of climbing, oddswise. Assuming proper use of protection gear, of course.
2) Many people do things on a daily basis (such as eat fast food) which are more likely to kill you than climbing."
Is there really any basis for sayin it is more dangerous to drive to the store than to climb. Note, I'm not saying climbing is more dangerous, but does anybody really have convincing data on this or is this just somebody spouting off (which I'll admit I do a lot also).
Even if fast food is more likely to kill you. It's likely to shorten your retirement. It isn't as likely to kill you in middle age (as climbing could) when you still have dependents.
And again, all these comments about "safe and proper use of gear"... if everybody was always a "safe" driver, there would only be a minuscule amount of deaths from vehicles...
I haven't stopped climbing, but when taking a "calculated risk" I would like to have more confidence in my calculation.
cheers
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JAK
Sport climber
Central NC
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Climbing is, by my expereince, a very deadly game. Do not let the view that it is the same risk as driving, or eating too many Frito Lay products. If you've been climbing for ten years there is a strong chance a climber in your community left physical existence behind.
I'm talking statistically of course. The main difference between climbing and say, driving, is that whether or not you meet your end in climbing is much more under your control. If an 18 wheeler jacknifes or a drunk rams you head on, there's not much you could have done about it.
Re: climbing, people do suffer strokes of bad luck - rockfall, mysterious equipment failures, or gate lash letting your rope out of a critical biner after a big whipper - but a large portion of climbing fatalities are also due to preventable mistakes. Rappelling off the ends of a rope, free soloists taking the plunge, or constructing a belay anchor out of a micronut and a bad cam placement because there's nothing else and going for it. Tying stopper knots/backing up with a prusik, using protection gear, and using good judgement and backing off the climb are all respective examples of how these tragedies could be avoided.
So yes, I agree 100% that climbing is risky, but it is almost entirely up to the climber(s) to minimize that risk. Acts of God notwithstanding, the sport is mostly about how much you trust your climbing partners, your equipment, and yourself.
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