Rappelling El Capitan

Search
Go

Discussion Topic

Return to Forum List
Post a Reply
Messages 1 - 605 of total 605 in this topic
Googlymoogly

climber
Topic Author's Original Post - Jul 24, 2012 - 09:25pm PT
I will be in Yosemite for a day or two in the next few weeks. The climbing partner I am going with isn't ready to attempt climbing The Nose but we have talked about rappelling down it (I have seen videos and heard of people doing it via the Nose descent anchors). I am not a stranger to multi pitch climbing or rappels but still want to see if anyone has more info or advice since it isn't a common endeavor. I have read the Tom Rohrer guide but it is geared to doing it when the descent route with bolted raps wasn't established yet. Any thoughts?
Cragman

Trad climber
June Lake, California....via the Damascus Road
Jul 24, 2012 - 09:29pm PT
Don't do it.

You come to ST and the very first thing you post is about rappelling arguably the best free climb in the world?

Go back to the gym, and practice your rappelling there....YOSAR has enough to do.
MisterE

Social climber
Jul 24, 2012 - 09:30pm PT
Sounds epic!

One thing is for sure




















wait for it


















































you know what is coming




































the best things take time















































and Locker spacing






























































YOU'RE GONNA DIE!
Mark Hudon

Trad climber
Hood River, OR
Jul 24, 2012 - 09:35pm PT
A day or two easily gives you enough time to go climb something, why not do that rather than rappel something?
Plaidman

Trad climber
South Slope of Mt. Tabor, Portland, Oregon, USA
Jul 24, 2012 - 09:38pm PT
I personally find rappelling Repellent!!!
Kalimon

Trad climber
Ridgway, CO
Jul 24, 2012 - 09:45pm PT
Bring some extra brake bars.
Cosmiccragsman

Trad climber
AKA Dwain, from Apple Valley, Ca. and Vegas!
Jul 24, 2012 - 09:59pm PT
"Bring some extra brake bars."










AND, 2, 3,200 foot ropes so you can pull your ropes down afterward
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Jul 24, 2012 - 10:17pm PT
MisterE - PERFECT. Bwah-ha-ha-ha-ha!!!!
GhoulweJ

Trad climber
El Dorado Hills, CA
Jul 24, 2012 - 10:18pm PT
If u wanna go "down" el cap
.... Bring a parachute....
Any other way is.. Ummm... It just isn't
WBraun

climber
Jul 24, 2012 - 10:21pm PT
Any competent well round climber can do it, rappel the Nose.

Piss easy.

Grossman used to do it for booty hunting.

Yer all wankers for trying to blow this guy off .....
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Jul 24, 2012 - 10:22pm PT
check the books first--there may be a speed record for you to break. cosmic is right--long ropes will be the ticket. 3,200 feet is a bit much, but 500 would be reasonable, and possibly manageable. blue water, edelrid--all kinds of sponsorship possibilities. you'll encounter a party or two on the way up, possibly getting quite belligerent--be sure to arm yourselves; you can get plenty of advice about that on here.

el cap has had its share of BASE jumps, but i don't think it's had a ski descent yet. ekat?
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Jul 24, 2012 - 10:25pm PT
MisterE - PERFECT. Bwah-ha-ha-ha-ha!!!!


 Total epic cliffhanger… Thanks Mister E!!!
Randisi

Social climber
Dalian, Liaoning
Jul 24, 2012 - 10:25pm PT
el cap has had its share of BASE jumps, but i don't think it's had a ski descent yet. ekat?

One of the first jumps was in fact a ski jump: Rick Sylvester.
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Jul 24, 2012 - 10:27pm PT
randisi, a ski jump, especially one involving parachuting, is not a ski descent.
Randisi

Social climber
Dalian, Liaoning
Jul 24, 2012 - 10:28pm PT
So you want to know if someone committed suicide on skis off El Cap?
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Jul 24, 2012 - 10:30pm PT
if death results, it wouldn't be considered a successful ski descent.
OR

Trad climber
Jul 24, 2012 - 10:36pm PT
Remember that awful rap accident in the late 80's. A caving club I think. They were rapping elcap and sombdy did not have enough brake bars in their set up. Werner would know.


Have fun if you do it though really. Its not my thing but it would be a cool way to see the capitan if you were not able to climb it.
Cragman

Trad climber
June Lake, California....via the Damascus Road
Jul 24, 2012 - 10:44pm PT
OR, Flanders and I witnessed that incident while climbing the Freeblast. It was not pretty. Oh, and it was early 90's.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Jul 24, 2012 - 10:45pm PT
Rap the Cap?

Great Googley-Moogley, Guglielmucci!
OR

Trad climber
Jul 24, 2012 - 10:50pm PT
I heard there was quite a few witnesses.. Wow, I was there 91-94 but I always thought it was b4 my time.
Cragman

Trad climber
June Lake, California....via the Damascus Road
Jul 24, 2012 - 10:51pm PT
We watched him go all the way.......
coloradohigh

Trad climber
rocky mountain trench
Jul 24, 2012 - 10:51pm PT
Why rap when you can hitch a ride on Honold mobile, it departs every two hours.
Tami

Social climber
Canada
Jul 24, 2012 - 10:57pm PT
AND, 2, 3,200 foot ropes so you can pull your ropes down afterward


HAHAAHAHAHAHAA
Spider Savage

Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
Jul 24, 2012 - 11:25pm PT
Even if you are experienced and skilled as a climber and at rappelling, you may not be ready for the 3,000+ feet of exposure. After hiking 8 miles to the top with all that gear, you look over the edge, and your mind can light up in a sort of fire fight.
Hummerchine

Trad climber
East Wenatchee, WA
Jul 24, 2012 - 11:40pm PT
Werner:

RIGHT ON!
Silver

Gym climber
Jul 24, 2012 - 11:50pm PT
While I think the op should do what he wants I think he would be better served for a rap day doing Middle Earth and rapping the lower falls.


It's apparently A very good time.

Mr_T

Trad climber
Northern California
Jul 24, 2012 - 11:51pm PT
An alternative might be rapping from the Lost Arrow notch. Or better, partner up with a team and see if you can do a reverse Tyrolean traverse of the Arrow Spire and rap down from there.

Then link up with the Middle Earth descent. You could camp half way.
Dick Erb

climber
June Lake, CA
Jul 25, 2012 - 12:01am PT
I have rappelled the Nose, at least the top part down to the bottom of the great roof. Roper and I were setting up rigging for Glen Denny's El Cap movie. We were to be paid 30 dollars apiece per day (low budget 60's movie) so we thought it best to use two days and bivy at camp 6. Lowering the pig sure beats hauling.
The user formerly known as stzzo

climber
Sneaking up behind you
Jul 25, 2012 - 12:01am PT
Werner, I hear we're all wankers anyway.
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Jul 25, 2012 - 12:38am PT
Wow, are people really advocating rappelling the Nose for fun? If you are scoping the wall, maybe it makes sense.

Rappelling kills more people than actually climbing.

What is the point? Are you practicing for a big retreat?

Sorry Werner, but why would you want to encourage this? I was in the Valley when John Mokri died. Struck a nerve.

Peace
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
Jul 25, 2012 - 12:58am PT
Well, I'd say prolly 50% of the parties setting out to climb El Cap end up rapping so why not just cut to the chase?
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jul 25, 2012 - 12:59am PT
Good idea. Make sure you let Tom E know of your plans, and parade on the bridge before and afterward. He'll surely report, and may appreciate the novelty.
tornado

climber
lawrence kansas
Jul 25, 2012 - 01:35am PT
Do it Bay to Breakers style in a salmon costume and bring an air horn so folks get out of your way.
MisterE

Social climber
Jul 25, 2012 - 01:37am PT
Ha! Grossman outed as a big-wall booty gatherer! Fits with his fearless demeanor.

That is great history there. Thanks Werner.
Curt

Boulder climber
Gilbert, AZ
Jul 25, 2012 - 01:39am PT
Sorry Werner, but why would you want to encourage this?

Things must be slow at YOSAR.

Curt
T2

climber
Cardiff by the sea
Jul 25, 2012 - 01:46am PT
You guys talking about the "Speedlunker" It was Sept. 92'

We watched him go all the way.......

Curious how you saw him from the free blast when that guy whiped from the top of the Dawn wall? Were you able to see him crater next to Lay Lady ledge from over there on the free blast?
MisterE

Social climber
Jul 25, 2012 - 01:58am PT
I remember Mom telling me a story about a climber rappelling off the end of his rope in the early 70's on El Cap?
She always said that if he had tied a knot in the end of his rope(s), it would have never happened. I also recall how she said it shocked the climbing community of the time and that he was a well-respected climber. Crap. I wish my memory was better.

Just a random memory from the deep past. Anyone remember who that was?
Salamanizer

Trad climber
The land of Fruits & Nuts!
Jul 25, 2012 - 03:09am PT
You can rap it, why not? I wouldn't but who cares what you do.

Main thing to consider is, if you get a rope stuck... you're fukked.


Rap the Lost Arrow rap route. It's pretty strait forward, exposed and has little obstacles with which to get your rope stuck. I've descended it twice, once in pitch black.
bullfrog

Trad climber
Jul 25, 2012 - 03:17am PT
Do it Bay to Breakers style in a salmon costume and bring an air horn so folks get out of your way.

I can't argue with this.



martygarrison

Trad climber
Washington DC
Jul 25, 2012 - 06:54am PT
I remember in the 70's there was this guy who put up the rap route on the nose. He would hang around camp four sometimes. Can't remember his name but I don't think he climbed anything, just was focused on rapping the nose. Odd dude.

Marty
Cragman

Trad climber
June Lake, California....via the Damascus Road
Jul 25, 2012 - 07:36am PT
T2, I was leading the 3rd pitch...had just done the traverse under that little overhang when we spotted him getting into trouble a few hundred feet below the summit. We watched him fall until he disappeared behind the lower part of the Nose.

A few hours later, we got rained off our route at the top of the 9th. When we came down, we walked over and saw the scene....a fair sized crowd watching as YOSAR attempted to reach what remained of the poor soul's body.
RP3

Big Wall climber
El Portal/Chapel Hill
Jul 25, 2012 - 07:38am PT
I've rappelled the Nose. It is actually quite straightforward and fun with cool ledges to picnic on on the way down. You will have to bring along a bunch of leaver biners or quick-links. Have fun (and be safe)!
Majid_S

Mountain climber
Bay Area , California
Jul 25, 2012 - 09:06am PT
this is from yesterday

http://redlands.patch.com/articles/chino-woman-a-volunteer-guide-fatally-injured-in-fall-at-idyllwild-s-suicide-rock#photo-10754126

murcy

Gym climber
sanfrancisco
Jul 25, 2012 - 10:12am PT
this guy who put up the rap route on the nose

Tom Rohrer, the MadBolter:

http://www.supertopo.com/topos/obscurities/RohrerRapBook.pdf
martygarrison

Trad climber
Washington DC
Jul 25, 2012 - 10:24am PT
That's it! Tom Rohrer
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Jul 25, 2012 - 10:50am PT
A Chino woman was fatally injured Tuesday when she fell during a climbing and rappelling demonstration at Suicide Rock ...

Karen Gose, 27, fell while descending a rock face during a climbing and rappelling demonstration, the Riverside County coroner reported.

Gose, identified as a "volunteer hiking guide," fell an estimated 30 to 40 feet.

in memoriam to this perhaps senseless loss, let us revive the back-up-the-damn-rappel debate.
Dick Erb

climber
June Lake, CA
Jul 25, 2012 - 11:08am PT
Mister E, the guy that rappelled off the end of his rope; sounds like Jim Madsen.
Peter Haan

Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
Jul 25, 2012 - 11:27am PT
Right Dick and Mister E. That was Madsen, in 1968, October. And there WAS a knot, but as was tested later in Camp, the knot traversed out through Jim's brake arrangement. Also part of the picture was the dude was really loaded down with more rope and hardware and rescue stuff. And ALL by himself, panicking over Pratt's safety, though Chuck and partner (Fredericks, I think) were just fine where they were, waiting out the weather.

Back to topic: the notion that rappelling is anything other than a particularly deadly activity best avoided, is silly.
Evel

Trad climber
Nedsterdam CO
Jul 25, 2012 - 11:39am PT
That makes two times in two years I've heard of rappelling accidents by folks who were 'guiding' or 'teaching'. What the?
TrundleBum

Trad climber
Las Vegas
Jul 25, 2012 - 12:23pm PT
Athena meets Zeus. OK not Zeus but a crusty old God at any rate !
Athena meets Zeus. OK not Zeus but a crusty old God at any rate !
Credit: TrundleBum

Tom Rohrer putting his autograph into Athena's new copy of the Stone M...
Tom Rohrer putting his autograph into Athena's new copy of the Stone Masters book.
Credit: TrundleBum

Too anyone that says that Tom Rohrer only raps and does not climb... 
...
Too anyone that says that Tom Rohrer only raps and does not climb...
I call B.S !!!
Credit: TrundleBum

- supertopo/obscurities/RohrerRapBook.pdf
Silver

Gym climber
Jul 25, 2012 - 12:31pm PT
If you look back over the last two decade of Accidents in North America its a manuscript on how to rap off the end of the rope, and die. This is not just a US problem but a global problem.

Tie a fricken knot people and for crying out loud check each other before you leave the belay. I know this for a fact if I ask to see you're doubled back and if there is a knot in the end of the rope when we are rapping and you give me sh#t about it, were done climbing together.

Still to this day I always ask before I climb to see that my partners harness is double backed and his knot is correct. I ask the same of them to ask me to check it and make sure all systems are done right.





Peter Haan

Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
Jul 25, 2012 - 12:44pm PT
It's a bit more than that too, Silver. I would add I have noticed that a certain percentage of climbers kind of get scrambled in the head during rappels.

Even highly competent climbers might leave hardware up at the rappel point, set up above the knot, clip in backwards or forget which rope to pull---- on some major or minor level they are "losing it". Whether it is displaced fear or fatigue or obliviousness to the very thin margin suddenly present in the climbing situation when you commence rappelling--- each situation is different, but if you watch, many climbers just don't quite stay on the ball, at least in comparison to how they might have been while climbing upwards within "the system". I have been watching this for 50 years now.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jul 25, 2012 - 12:50pm PT
Somewhere on ST is a thread about silly things you've done while climbing. Perhaps the funniest is the time some poor chap threw his two ropes to rappel, but forgot to first pass them through the anchor. So yeah, Peter, the mind does funny things sometimes.


Other than that, I think rappin' El Cap would be a gas, for some.
Silver

Gym climber
Jul 25, 2012 - 12:58pm PT
Agree Peter

Its frustrating to see this all the time. This is too me the most dangerous part of climbing. Add in exhaustion and perhaps conditions that are not ideal and well it can be very very dangerous.

It always shocks me too that climbers won't leave a nut or a cam behind or couple of biners to ensure that level of safety is met to make the ground.

Nothing like saving a couple of bucks on your way to dying.
Mungeclimber

Trad climber
the crowd MUST BE MOCKED...Mocked I tell you.
Jul 25, 2012 - 01:08pm PT
one post, and the last name includes mucci?



hrm Chris = Mucci = troll?


nah, we wouldn't fall for that.
Cosmiccragsman

Trad climber
AKA Dwain, from Apple Valley, Ca. and Vegas!
Jul 25, 2012 - 01:17pm PT
Tom the madbolter
Tom the madbolter
Credit: Cosmiccragsman
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Jul 25, 2012 - 01:21pm PT
silly things you've done while climbing. Perhaps the funniest is the time some poor chap threw his two ropes to rappel, but forgot to first pass them through the anchor

A few quick stories:

 one time on a belay ledge my partner went to lean back on the anchor, then caught himself just as he realized he wasn't clipped in. I had taken him off belay. Neither of us knew how we'd gotten like that.

 once I blindly followed what was indicated as a rap route on a topo map, but it just ended in the middle of a blank face. Ended up doing king-swing type maneuvers to get over to a single bolt on another route, which we followed down to the ground.

 story from a friend, rappelled using a nut tool as a hook for his anchor. When he got down, he just flipped the rope a couple times to get the rope and nut tool back.

 another story from a friend, who was climbing in an alpine setting when a storm came in, lightening coming down everywhere. His parter was leading, but was out of sight and also couldn't hear. The rope stopped moving at one point, my friend tugged and tugged on it but no reaction. Eventually due to weather he climbed and self belayed up to where his partner was. His parter was dead, had been struck by lightening and was just hanging there. I dont want to mention names, but these things do happen in the mtns.
Gary

climber
"My god - it's full of stars!"
Jul 25, 2012 - 01:23pm PT
I know this for a fact if I ask to see you're doubled back and if there is a knot in the end of the rope when we are rapping and you give me sh#t about it, were done climbing together.

Amazingly, people will get offended if you ask to check their harness and knot. Not me!

With all the checking I've done, I've only caught one harness screw up, but one is more than enough.
James

climber
My twin brother's laundry room
Jul 25, 2012 - 01:26pm PT
I rappelled the Salathe this spring with Mark Postel, a Denali guide from Terrebonne Oregon. "This is some of the scariest sh#t I've done," I screamed. I kicked in to place directionals on the head wall.
"Some of? You've done scarier" Postel looked down past me at the enormous amount of sudden exposure. "what were you in Nam?"
Silver

Gym climber
Jul 25, 2012 - 01:42pm PT
Me too Gary and it was my friends wife who got distracted by her child while putting on her harness and well lets just say we both were just happy thats my way of doing things.

I would be offended if I had to call your wife and children and tell them your dead.



bergbryce

Mountain climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
Jul 25, 2012 - 01:46pm PT
I think rapping The Nose during high season is a bad idea. Too many teams to pass, too many opportunities for entanglements too many people likely getting pissed off. Is there another route you could do with less traffic?

I take checking my harness and knots as a sign of a good partner. I would never take offense at this, really quite the opposite. I hope to be climbing for a good, long time and double checking each other is a good way to help make that happen.
guido

Trad climber
Santa Cruz/New Zealand/South Pacific
Jul 25, 2012 - 02:23pm PT
Up or down
As relative as snot
The questions begs
Is whether
Or not
Googlymoogly

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 25, 2012 - 02:26pm PT
Thanks for all the responses. This would be for both fun and scoping the route for the future. Getting ropes stuck is a concern I already thought about but I have learned how to avoid it pretty well. How many leaver biners would be needed? The anchors don't all have rap rings? I would bring some anyway but carrying 5-10 is much different than 20-25. That is the type of info I am looking for since most topos don’t say leaver biners are needed.

From what I can tell early August isn’t a busy time on El Cap and I wouldn’t go when it was busy. Too bad Tom E isn’t in the valley during August.

It was only a matter of time before comments on the last name (anyone know how to change the display name?)
cultureshock

Trad climber
Mountain View
Jul 25, 2012 - 02:56pm PT
The route has good raps stations from the Great Roof on down. The top section is more of a mixed bag.

The first two anchors below the top (ie the tree) have chains. You will do a short rap sideways to the right and then a pretty long rappel past the bolt ladder. I think you might need to clip some of the bolts as directionals or else you will be hanging in space...

The anchors below that have one quicklink on the hanger which kinda works but will really twist up your rope. It would be good to add at least one quicklink to the three anchors "before" camp VI. (The one atop the Changing corners, the end of the awesome hands pitch and the exposed belay). There is no two bolt belay at the base of the bolt ladder.

Camp VI has good rings, so does the glowering spot and Camp V. The belay below that is kinda funky so it may need a biner and/or a quicklink. From there on it should all be equipped nicely.

So bring a minimum of 5 biners/quicklinks. 8 if you want to be more awesome. If leaving quicklinks please use the beefier 3/8" ones.

Have fun, be safe, and post up about your adventure when you come back. Also make sure to bring a few cams in case your rope does get stuck.

The rappels from Dolt on down are super easy but the belays are often hanging.

Luke
le_bruce

climber
Oakland, CA
Jul 25, 2012 - 03:15pm PT
Story from a friend, rappelled using a nut tool as a hook for his anchor. When he got down, he just flipped the rope a couple times to get the rope and nut tool back.


Can't see this being true.
cultureshock

Trad climber
Mountain View
Jul 25, 2012 - 03:36pm PT
Fifi rappelling trick!

Skip to 2:25 to see the action!



 Luke
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Jul 25, 2012 - 03:38pm PT
Dont know, told by Scott Rietsma, a climber I knew in Boston about 20 years ago. The one about the person dying by lightning is true.
ElCapPirate

Big Wall climber
California
Jul 25, 2012 - 03:41pm PT
I've done it a handful of times rigging for the Huber film. It's not all that bad but does have a couple of tricky sections. I think the main thing you have to look out for is knocking rocks down on people below. Some of it you can't avoid because pulling the ropes trundles rocks onto yourself and possibly others.

I don't recommend it but I really try to avoid rappelling in the first place.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Jul 25, 2012 - 04:03pm PT
I'll add one thing from personal experience - you probably don't want to do it on a windy day. Seriously.

DMT
WBraun

climber
Jul 25, 2012 - 07:50pm PT
When you rappel the nose do not go towards El Cap towers go straight down the face until you reach dolt tower.

From reading all this bullsh!t here sounds like only elcap pirate has done it?

The rest are all this way homo doom and gloom bullsh!t.

I can't believe the climbing world these days.

Or is it just this stupid supertopo bullsh!t always?

If I had to listen to all this wanking about the horrors of climbing here I'd never have done anything.

All it takes is a good brain.

Do you have one?

Or do you people always over analyze everything ad nauseum until you puke?

damo62

Social climber
Brisbane
Jul 25, 2012 - 08:04pm PT
Good man Verner, you're in rare form today!
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Jul 25, 2012 - 10:26pm PT
Is there a good rappell ledge to empty your shorts...?
Googlymoogly

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 26, 2012 - 09:53pm PT
Thanks cultureshock! Thats what I need to know. It sounds like next weekend it shouldn't be too busy. If the trip works out I will post the pics for sure! I think I have what I need but any other opinions or advice is welcome
BooDawg

Social climber
Butterfly Town
Aug 7, 2012 - 11:59pm PT
So Chris, you said you had everything you need. What's the latest on your plan to rappel the Captain? Was that you who got rescued and has to appear in court? You promised us a TR. How about an update (with photos if possible!)?

Kalimon: this link:

http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/1896761/Rescued-off-the-Nose-on-Saturday-8-4
Kalimon

Trad climber
Ridgway, CO
Aug 8, 2012 - 12:13am PT
Boo Dawg . . . can you elaborate?

Werner . . . are you suggesting that someone can just hike to the top of El Cap, locate the anchors, just head on down the face and simply go straight down to Dolt Tower . . . all with no beta whatsoever? Rescue fodder.

Oh yeah, it is a little unfair to compare the topoids with El Cap Pirate . . . he is in another realm very few attain.
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Aug 8, 2012 - 12:49am PT
Give us a TR.

I know a hell of a lot of teams start up the Nose and then bail around El Cap Tower. So rapping El Cap is nothing new. I myself have rapped half of many El Cap routes!!!!

Have fun. Bring wrenches to scarf any fixed cams.

To do a righteous rap, you should do the Trip or something. That would be cool. I've down nailed but left a lot of gear doing it.
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Aug 8, 2012 - 12:58am PT
If I had to listen to all this wanking about the horrors of climbing here I'd never have done anything.

All it takes is a good brain.

Do you have one?

Awesome.
ß Î Ø T Ç H

Boulder climber
bouldering
Aug 8, 2012 - 01:37am PT
le_bruce: "I saw what must have been him loading up in a ranger's vehicle at the Meadow, and he looked pretty wasted and pretty bummed."

OP of THIS thread seems pretty articulate and informed. I kinda doubt he's the perp in the recent rescue/ arrest. Did anybody PM him yet?

The user formerly known as stzzo

climber
Sneaking up behind you
Aug 8, 2012 - 02:24am PT
anyone know how to change the display name?

I did it once, when my avatar was just "Stzzo". Since then, I've never been able to change it to anything else. I guess they fixed that hole.
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Aug 13, 2012 - 09:26pm PT
Paging Mr. Chris Guglielmucci. Hello?

Was this you who got rescued off the Nose?

http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1901535&tn=25

Start talkin', dude.

OR

Trad climber
Aug 13, 2012 - 10:09pm PT
Oh boy. Just read that . Awful
Prod

Trad climber
Aug 13, 2012 - 10:10pm PT
Could it be this guy???

http://www.facebook.com/chris.guglielmucci

They lived, hope they learned.

Prod.
WBraun

climber
Aug 13, 2012 - 10:27pm PT
Looks like him.

But his partner is the one who fuked up going off camp 5 the wrong way.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Aug 13, 2012 - 10:35pm PT
Here's s novel idea.....to maximize that sensational erotic feeling only provided by rappelling, find something you have to "climb" in order to get to the first rap anchor....pure ecstasy.
Big Mike

Trad climber
BC
Aug 13, 2012 - 11:00pm PT
wow.. you guys called it..
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Aug 13, 2012 - 11:07pm PT
Well hmm. Too much cajones. Too little experience.

Gotta say. If you're gonna screw up learning (and don't tell me you didn't) Might as well go big .. and not die.

Truly an Epic Fail.. Better than any of mine.

Honestly I'm kinda impressed that any pair this unprepared had the balls for this.

Seriously.. How the hell did they get past looking up at it from the meadows...let alone hiking up and hopping over the edge.

Ballz
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Aug 13, 2012 - 11:12pm PT
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Aug 13, 2012 - 11:13pm PT
Chris Guglielmucci, 26 July 2012
If the trip works out I will post the pics for sure!

Amazing incident.

Then again,
“Far better is it to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checked by failure...than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in a gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat.”

Better a magnificent failure than a mediocre success, lol!

Wow!
Cragman

Trad climber
June Lake, California....via the Damascus Road
Aug 13, 2012 - 11:15pm PT
These guys willfully endangered everyone involved....themselves, anyone on the wall, and SAR.

They should be prosecuted.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Aug 13, 2012 - 11:16pm PT
They should be prosecuted.

Sh!t, there you go again.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Aug 13, 2012 - 11:17pm PT
Ahh hell.. the SAR guys got a payday... I suppose the lighting made for an interesting callout.

Bailing idiots out is the name of the game in SAR.

If you take extra risk in a SAR it's on your own head. You have definitely been trained not to.
Cragman

Trad climber
June Lake, California....via the Damascus Road
Aug 13, 2012 - 11:20pm PT
"willfully endangered"


A prosecutable offense.....and a deterrent for the next wannabes.

Any time SAR has to go on an operation, THEY put their lives on the line....it shouldn't have to be for a**holes like this.

Delhi Dog

climber
Good Question...
Aug 13, 2012 - 11:21pm PT
HFCS
Knott sure about being glorious at others expense is worthy of that quote.

Props to SAR folks once again-probably some head shaking went down.

cheers
The Warbler

climber
the edge of America
Aug 13, 2012 - 11:21pm PT
OOOPs

Well, on the positive side, even SAR guys need practice.

And I'm betting they'll be more prepared next time, rappers and SAR
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Aug 13, 2012 - 11:24pm PT
Oh hell give em a fine for being dummies and unprepared. But cmon endangering others? I guarantee those SAR kids are chomping at the bit to go on a callout on the CAP.. I would have been back in the day.

"Dude we got flown to the top and got paid to descend the nose and pick up a couple guys on the way..this life is too good.."

If YOSAR can't comfortably extract a couple yahoo's off the NOSE they need to be disbanded.

Which of course is not the case.
Cragman

Trad climber
June Lake, California....via the Damascus Road
Aug 13, 2012 - 11:28pm PT
^Bulls***
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Aug 13, 2012 - 11:29pm PT
I like ya Cragman .. seriously.. and look forward to climbing soon.

We just disagree here :)

Either that or too much beer for me tonight and i'll feel like a moron for posting tomorrow lol.

Bored tonight

High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Aug 13, 2012 - 11:30pm PT
Knott sure about being glorious at others expense is worthy of that quote.

Yeah, that quote was half tongue in cheek, but it just shows how crazy adventures and the adventurous spirit (in ALL of us) can be sometimes. Is all.

.....

Peter Haan,
Back to topic: the notion that rappelling is anything other than a particularly deadly activity best avoided, is silly.

Wanting to be clear, could you rephrase this. Want to make sure idiom or figure of speech isn't interfering with my understanding of your compound sentence here. Either that, or I'm just tired after a hard day. But I'd like to be clear on your thought, if you're still about.
Cragman

Trad climber
June Lake, California....via the Damascus Road
Aug 13, 2012 - 11:34pm PT
Something to consider.....SAR goes out after these morons...something happens and someone is hurt or killed...all because of these morons...

or....

...while retrieving these morons, a REAL incident happens, and SAR is busy with the morons.....and those in need of REAL help...are delayed in receiving it...suffer....maybe die....

Wise up.
Kalimon

Trad climber
Ridgway, CO
Aug 13, 2012 - 11:37pm PT
Werner encouraged them to do this.
pc

climber
Aug 13, 2012 - 11:38pm PT
climbski, really? You invite a long list of things that can go wrong.

Another possible outcome...regulation. Soon we may have to pass a belay (and rappel) tests...
Shack

Big Wall climber
Reno NV
Aug 13, 2012 - 11:44pm PT
Would you guys be happier if they had to get rescued while climbing?
Does it make any difference to YOSAR?
Just curious.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Aug 13, 2012 - 11:47pm PT
Like I said fine em. They screwed up. But I don't see being so angry or resorting to calls of criminal negligence with severe risk to others.

But here is reality.

EVERY climb we do has REAL RISK. The biggest risk is that we (any of us) will do something we know better than to do. Find me someone who can honestly say they have never screwed up climbing and I will find you a liar or a complete noob.

I've talked to senators and panels about this. Pleading the case that it IS worthwhile to allow this freedom at the cost to taxpayer dollars.

We have a Coast guard and guess what they rescue morons every day. Saving and helping people is about the best thing you can get a chance to do in life. Usually it means helping folks that screwed up. We ALL screw up and regardless it's a damn fine thing to know that someone cares and someone will help.

I was a volunteer for years and gladly went on every callout I could. Usually had a blast and loved doing it.

The only regrets I have are the ones picking up pieces and looking for torso's and teeth. Yet even there it helps to know that you are bringing some great comfort to the families of a tragic situation.

So I'm not too mad at these guys. If I had never screwed up perhaps I would be. I have been very fortunate that my screwups never ended up in a serious injury or rescue.. But it's a fact that i was lucky.

The cost of rescues like these is merely the cost of being human.. and showing humanity.

The day that our society can no longer accept these costs is the day we might as well nuke ourselves.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Aug 13, 2012 - 11:49pm PT
I don't see the need to throw the book at the blokes. A mild rescue, what, a paid training exercise for the most part? A real yawner.

DMT
Shack

Big Wall climber
Reno NV
Aug 13, 2012 - 11:51pm PT
Werner only encouraged these guys because he wanted the overtime.

Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Aug 13, 2012 - 11:52pm PT
'e's diabolical, that one.

DMT
Cragman

Trad climber
June Lake, California....via the Damascus Road
Aug 13, 2012 - 11:53pm PT
These two are the same kind of morons we get over here who willfully leave the ski area to snowboard down BC terrain with NO lift service...thinking they have the ability to posthole back up 2,000 feet of pow.....and we have to get out of bed in a white-out, and at great risk to ourselves, have to ski by headlamp in avalanche conditions to go rescue them.

Willfully doing an act that is out of one's capabilities and without the gear necessary....is a prosecutable offense.

They are risking other's lives by their WILLFUL actions.
Shack

Big Wall climber
Reno NV
Aug 13, 2012 - 11:54pm PT
How much do you wanna bet they use the "Werner said it was OK" defense in court?
this just in

climber
north fork
Aug 13, 2012 - 11:54pm PT
Cragman isn't sar your willful choice?

Being so quick to prosecute and sue has become a shame of our country.
Cragman

Trad climber
June Lake, California....via the Damascus Road
Aug 13, 2012 - 11:55pm PT
^Pinheaded comment. Wise up.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Aug 13, 2012 - 11:56pm PT
Unless a person is unconcious every action they take is willful. So every one of us is guilty of willfully doing stupid sh#t that could have hurt others.. Why? Because we climb..and climbing is risky... mistakes happen and someone else might have to come where we are and help.. no way around that

case closed

A rescuer who descends into unstable slopes is a freaking idiot.. he should be held more responsible than the idiot he was trying to rescue.

Why cause he DAMNWELL should know better.

THAT is the first rule of SAR
The Warbler

climber
the edge of America
Aug 13, 2012 - 11:57pm PT
Whenever I'm faced with a decision on the rock, I say to myself

What Would Werner do?


Cragman

Trad climber
June Lake, California....via the Damascus Road
Aug 13, 2012 - 11:59pm PT
This is obviously not worth my breath.
this just in

climber
north fork
Aug 13, 2012 - 11:59pm PT
Pretty judgemental for your background there cragman. Wwjd. :-)
The user formerly known as stzzo

climber
Sneaking up behind you
Aug 14, 2012 - 12:07am PT
Something to consider.....SAR goes out after these morons...something happens and someone is hurt or killed...all because of these morons...

I did SAR for a while.

No one made me do it. Every choice has consequences.

This is why I think people should pay for rescues; at least, morons should. SAR workers should be on a pay scale adjusted to risk.

or....

...while retrieving these morons, a REAL incident happens, and SAR is busy with the morons.....and those in need of REAL help...are delayed in receiving it...suffer....maybe die....

Definitely a concern.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Aug 14, 2012 - 12:12am PT
No one can afford to hire YOSAR.

Helicopters Personel, Training on and on.

SAR personel are never paid what they are worth either.

But if ever the case could be made for the purpose of a government and the paying of taxes that is therefore required it is this.

To preserve Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness for their citizens.

Rescuing climbers hits dead center on all three.

I once made that exact argument to a Senator looking to hit climbers hard on Denali.

I saw in the Senators face his respect for this argument. It made a difference.
The Warbler

climber
the edge of America
Aug 14, 2012 - 12:13am PT
Your opinion, while a bit harsh IMO, is certainly valid, Cragman, and should give pause to others considering similar adventures.

Prosecution seems wrong to me because it's impossible to draw the line as to where risk takers become responsible for the cost of their rescue, and nearly as difficult to calculate a just punishment if prosecution happens.

Your brand of persecution is probably more effective at preventing more similar events than prosecution would be.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Aug 14, 2012 - 12:19am PT
CRAGMAN you do most certainly make valid points as mentioned above. You were right from the get go on this thread in being the first reply to the OP

You've seen some terrible stuff due to these type of things. My thought is this. Give me liberty or give me death is no idle boast. The cost is VERY real.

I simply feel that these risks are part of the cost and risks of a free society. No intent to harm was exhibited. No malice,

Just an overbearing sense of adventure beyond ones capabilities... a failure of judgement for sure. On an Epic scale unfortunately.

But a misdemeanor.. not a Felony

A fine perhaps but not the full cost.
Peter Haan

Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
Aug 14, 2012 - 12:35am PT
Climbski, I like your points. Very well done and thanks. Fair and wise. Cragman has spent a ton of time in SAR, law enforcement and other kooky situations---he is even a builder---and so of course he tends to get unhappy when stupidity takes the day. That's all it is. Were he face to face with these rappelling noobies on the Nose, he would have been a gentleman
this just in

climber
north fork
Aug 14, 2012 - 12:44am PT
No, I think cragman would of called them morons, slapped on the handcuffs and told them they were being prosecuted for willfully endangering his life. I could be wrong though.
10b4me

Ice climber
dingy room at the Happy boulders hotel
Aug 14, 2012 - 12:58am PT
have to agree with Cragman. not only did they waste YOSAR time, and money. they put other people in jeopardy.
crasic

climber
Aug 14, 2012 - 01:05am PT
Werner encouraged them to do this.

He also assumed they had a brain. Going off route at least once on a long rappel route in unfamiliar terrain is practically expected, and its not like jugging your rappel to restart is something extraordinary for a climber/rappeler to know. The fact that they weren't prepared for either indicates they either didn't have a brain or didn't use it.

Not that most of us (I assume) aren't guilty of this as well, I know the first time I rappelled ever I didn't know how to jug back up, but it was a one pitch on low-angled terrain with experienced partners, not during an attempt to rappel the largest granite monolith in the world.

If YOSAR wasn't there they would have been dead.

The user formerly known as stzzo

climber
Sneaking up behind you
Aug 14, 2012 - 01:06am PT
To preserve Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness for their citizens.

Rescuing climbers hits dead center on all three.

If we're subsidizing poor judgement or stupidity, then welfare also hits on all three.

So does socialism. And putting a liver transplant for an alcoholic on the taxpayers' tab.

More practically, preserving liberty and the pursuit of happiness has nothing to do with rescuing climbers.

Allowing the citizens of the government the liberty and pursuit of happiness to do stupid sh#t is one thing. Saving their ass after they do it is another.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Aug 14, 2012 - 01:09am PT
One of the drawbacks to forums is that the written word can make things a bit too strong.

I regret directly debating Cragman. Having met in person and also enjoying his great TRs I really know he's a great guy. Someone I feel privileged to have met and look forward to doing some climbing with in the future.

I am passionate about rescues being a taxpayer funded critical service. I am passionate about the freedom to climb without a whole bunch restrictions or fees on public lands. Meaning that.. yep we as a society pay for the inevitable screwups that will happen.

I suppose this is my point. Freedom has a price and while this was an avoidable incident in particular as most are.. if society allows climbing then incidents like this are the unavoidable cost. The only way to keep from paying these costs is to outlaw climbing and basically FREEDOM. I hope we are willing to bear the cost of freedom and the cost of helping people who make mistakes. I have done so and would be ashamed not to. I expect my society and my nation to be better than me.

We all screw up and we all need help sometimes. Lie to yourself if you will

Is that to much?
golsen

Social climber
kennewick, wa
Aug 14, 2012 - 01:12am PT
These guys willfully endangered everyone involved....themselves, anyone on the wall, and SAR.

They should be prosecuted.

I find this whole conversation rather interesting. In 1993 my partner and I attempted the nose for the first time. My Partners first big wall, and our first attempt at El Cap, and we tried it in a day. We rapped from the end of the great roof all the way down (weather sucked). I suppose that if we needed help that you could say we were out of our element, i suppose you could say we should be prosecuted (me living in Kansas at the time). But we had everything except a bolt kit to facilitate our retreat. On second thought I should have carried more hand tied runners as I was getting close to cutting our rope to back up jingus rapp stations.

Face it, getting rescued in Yosemite seems to be the expectation instead of the exception.

Climbers (not just these rappellers) have lost their sense of self sufficiency.

But because they were going down and not up does not justify their crucifixion.

Get rid of SAR and let nature take over if you have a problem with it.....People will learn fast or die. But I assure you the NPS will take all kinds of heat for such an approach.



crasic

climber
Aug 14, 2012 - 02:33am PT
Face it, getting rescued in Yosemite seems to be the expectation instead of the exception.

And, personally, I think this is a great thing. That doesn't mean we shouldn't set a minimum threshold for negligence.

Every great epic starts with getting into a situation you aren't prepared for and then using your creativity and perseverance to get out of it, if you get hopelessly f*#ked you call for help and then hope for the best.

The problem here is that the situation they got into wasn't something strange or out of the ordinary, its a basic issue for those that need to long rappels in unfamiliar terrain. It should have been expected.

Someone who plans for two days on the wall and gets stranded for a week and needs rescue due to lack of water supplies isn't considered negligent, the guy who knows he's spending two days on the wall and brings no water or food and then asks for rescue on the other hand...

We shouldn't be discouraging people for asking for help when they need it (which charging for rescue would accomplish), but we should be discouraging woefully unprepared people from getting into situations that will, most likely, require rescue. As the sport becomes more popular, this will become a bigger problem and its best to implement a system now to combat this.


All of this reminds me of a report from ANAM 2000 were some dude with no mountaineering experience tries to solo Denali (complete with 2-by-4's as crevasse crossing gear) and, predictably, gets dragged off the mountain when he gets stuck at 19,000. A basic sanity check on his permit application would have prevented the massive waste of resources, inconvenience to other parties (who trianed for years to be there), and extreme danger to the rescue crew.
Big Mike

Trad climber
BC
Aug 14, 2012 - 02:34am PT
Seems to me ascending a rope should be common knowledge for every climber. My first time doing it was in Skaha on Slow Pitch.

We tried to pull the rope to no avail so the only choice was going back up. We had no cordalette, but had slings and knew how to make prussics. He tried to ascend the rope but couldn't figure out the proper setup, and after a bit of thrashing slid back to the belay.

So the task was left to me, and I was promised a fat reward when I returned to the belay. I figured out if I clipped in short to my belay loop with the lower prussic I could keep my progress and ascend with the upper prussic/sling. I made it to the top and the quicklinks had pinched the rope. I set it up better and tested it to make sure it would pull good this time. It pulled when I got back to the belay and we got the heck outta dodge.
justthemaid

climber
Jim Henson's Basement
Aug 14, 2012 - 09:10am PT
Amazing incident.

Hardly amazing. Just stoopid/silly IMO. Totally called it. Werner made the fatal flaw of assuming people have a modicum of intelligence or some basic skills. Everyone in the universe makes mistakes. Some just do it more publicly than others.

A fine for the rescue is appropriate. Glad they are OK and hope they acquire some damn jumars and practice jugging and hauling for the next time. Nothing wrong with having a hair-brained idea as long as you have the skills to get yourself out of trouble.

Hell.. it gave SAR something to do. Otherwise they just sit around eating bon-bons and watching housewife reality shows.;)
Cragman

Trad climber
June Lake, California....via the Damascus Road
Aug 14, 2012 - 09:17am PT
Though I have the utmost respect for Werner in the SAR arena, his encouragement to this guy's plans is reprehensible.
Prod

Trad climber
Aug 14, 2012 - 09:34am PT
First off Werner did not encourage this activity.

He said

Any competent well round climber can do it, rappel the Nose.

Piss easy.

Grossman used to do it for booty hunting.

Yer all wankers for trying to blow this guy off .....

2ndly he asked for advice

I am not a stranger to multi pitch climbing or rappels but still want to see if anyone has more info or advice since it isn't a common endeavor.

none of us gave it to him. Pretty much everyone made fun of him. Except Cragman who came right out and predicted the outcome in the 2nd post BRAVO!!!!

Don't do it.

You come to ST and the very first thing you post is about rappelling arguably the best free climb in the world?

Go back to the gym, and practice your rappelling there....YOSAR has enough to do.

Guess someone should have said, If I were going to do this I'd bring.....

Prod.
Cragman

Trad climber
June Lake, California....via the Damascus Road
Aug 14, 2012 - 09:59am PT

Piss easy.

Yer all wankers for trying to blow this guy off .....





Encouragement.
Caveman

climber
Cumberland Plateau
Aug 14, 2012 - 10:15am PT
"Guess someone should have said, If I were going to do this I'd bring....."





a caver

Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Aug 14, 2012 - 10:23am PT
Lay off of Werner, he did say:

All it takes is a good brain.

Do you have one?

Now we know the answer.
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Aug 14, 2012 - 10:38am PT
Hello, Chris?

Um, we would really like to hear from you, to find out what happened. I would definitely start with the question,

"So why are you on the side of a big wall without ascenders, or the apparent knowledge and ability to use them?"
Walleye

climber
The Hot Kiss on the end of a Wet Fist
Aug 14, 2012 - 11:11am PT
September 92..

And, I quote

"LOOK OUT BELOW!!!"
pc

climber
Aug 14, 2012 - 11:21am PT
^ +1 PtPP.

It is fairly amazing they, a)looked up and still wanted to continue, b)got to the top, looked down and still wanted to continue.

Big Mike

Trad climber
BC
Aug 14, 2012 - 11:58am PT
It amazes me that they would embark on such a mission without first making sure they could ascend their ropes first. If i were trying this it would be one thing i would make sure to practice!
Vegasclimber

Trad climber
Las Vegas, NV.
Aug 14, 2012 - 12:01pm PT
For those saying that they should be charged, I believe that Werner already stated that they had been in the other thread on this.

I seriously doubt that this guy is going to have the balls to show his face in here, especially with the (justified) negative response he got here from the start. Not really much sense in continuing to call the guy out, IMO. If he did show back up, the only thing that is going to happen is 80 pages of people telling him what a dumbass he is.
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Aug 14, 2012 - 12:15pm PT
I wrote Chris on Facebook and asked him to respond here. He seems like a decent sort. It's a tough crowd here at McTopo, but in fairness it seems like the right thing for him to do, after soliciting our advice here and all. He also promised us a trip report.

I told him we wouldn't beat him up ....


















































... too much.

It takes balls to come on here and admit your mistakes, but plenty have done it, and generally they are respected for 'fessing up, even if what they did wasn't the smartest thing.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Aug 14, 2012 - 12:22pm PT
If it's a-okay to call someone a moron (cragman), dumbass (many a poster) or as#@&%e (cragman) concerning their actions, then why is it NOT a-okay to call someone a moron, dumbass or as#@&%e concerning their beliefs?



What a biased righteous bunch (of hypocrites, etc.) we have here.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Aug 14, 2012 - 12:26pm PT
The difference is similar to criticizing Rodney King because he's black.

Instead of just bagging on him for being a rotten driver.

It's a free country. You can be a bigot, if you want.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Aug 14, 2012 - 12:27pm PT
the notion that rappelling is anything other than a particularly deadly activity best avoided, is silly

This still seems confusing to me, I don't get it.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Aug 14, 2012 - 12:31pm PT
So this thread turned into the inevitable pissing match too?

Credit: Reilly
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Aug 14, 2012 - 12:35pm PT
Reilly, you do or you don't think this story raises all kinds of issues worthy of discussion in the hope of sorting a few out? Personalizing it just makes it real, more interesting and reminds us these are not just theoretical ideas or concerns, they're real world, all of them, as you know.
crasic

climber
Aug 14, 2012 - 12:38pm PT
This still seems confusing to me, I don't get it.

I think he's trying to say that its silly to consider rappelling anything but a deadly activity that is best avoided.

He's basically saying its silly to rappel for fun.
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Aug 14, 2012 - 12:39pm PT
The difference is similar to criticizing Rodney King because he's black

Interesting. I wasn't aware Mr. King chose to be black. Amazing the things you learn on the Taco.
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
Aug 14, 2012 - 12:41pm PT
Yes, we demand SATISFACTION ! ! !

generationfourth

Trad climber
Arizona
Aug 14, 2012 - 12:46pm PT
These guys would've tried to do it anyway regardless of what any of us said. Pointing fingers and trying to burn werner at the stake is pointless.
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
Aug 14, 2012 - 12:50pm PT
How was the attempt to rap off El Cap any worse than the much more common woefully unprepared attempts to climb the route? People that can't lead 5.7 and have never done a wall?? The leap-frogging of cams that leads to a few broken ankles and helicopter pluck-offs every season?

I'm sure SAR folks would rather be rescuing someone off El Cap probably more than just about anything else they do. When I was a hotshot and smokejumper I always was stoked for a raging fire, regardless of whether it was started by an idiot or lightening. People don't sign up for that sort of work to sit around hoping nothing happens.
Silver

Gym climber
Aug 14, 2012 - 12:52pm PT
At least they are alive and I suspect going to pay some heavy dollars for that day on the cliff. More than if they had hired a guide for the nose.

Id like to hear the story from the horses mouth.

I suspect he will not tell the tale here until his day in court.

You know the man is watching this thread and will use it in a court of law right OP.
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
Aug 14, 2012 - 12:53pm PT
I'll defend them for free.
Silver

Gym climber
Aug 14, 2012 - 01:14pm PT
You will lose this one in court.

Its not a top down or bottom up case.

The courts view on this will be whether the individuals were competent and prepared to do this rappel.

If you show up on the captain without a set of jumars/prusik's and begin to rappel you're negligent I suspect.

It's basic equipment I would think to ones getting down all be it a device for getting up.


Like I say they are lucky to be alive and if you have been on the captain in the rain and wind you know what I mean you can go hypo in the summer as well as the winter, and I suspect hanging over the great roof bottomed out on the rope and no jumar or prusik ability would make just about anyone throw up.



ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
Aug 14, 2012 - 01:23pm PT
Maybe I'll lose, but I just want to yell "you can't handle the truth" in the Yosemite court.
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Aug 14, 2012 - 01:29pm PT
Werner,

The last time I remember anyone being charged for an El Cap rescue was I believe back in the 80's when an Austrian team was plucked off The Shield headwall in storm, because they lacked the necessary storm protection and were using down for insulation.

Has anyone else been "billed" since then for their rescue?

Is that likely to happen in this instance?
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Aug 14, 2012 - 01:48pm PT
Cragman - I respect your knowledge and experience in SAR, but I have to disagree with your legal analysis. Willfulness is a mental state, ones intent to cause harm. It is not the willful act of rapping El Cap, it is the intent to place someone else in danger. Hell, under your analysis a willful walk up the Mist Trail could be grounds for charges.

Exhibit A for the defense in this case would be this thread. Viewed in its entirety, the conversation could be interpreted as goading the OP into undertaking the "adventure". I enjoy Werners blunt commentary, but I suspect he will temper his future comments. Supertopo bears some responsibility.

Gross negligence could rise to willfulness, but not in this case.

I am amazed that someone could drop off the top of El Cap without a serious second thought about what they were getting into. I want a trip report with an equipment list, surely SAR got an inventory of their "rack"?
dave goodwin

climber
carson city, nv
Aug 14, 2012 - 01:54pm PT
I got billed for being airlifted by YOSAR. I was injured climbing the last pitch and was able to get to the summit on my own. Spent the night on top and then next morning YOSAR airlifted me from the summit of El Cap to Crane Flats, and then transferred to a care flight that took me to Merced.

I got bills from both YOSAR and the hospital in Merced.

this was two years ago.
Silver

Gym climber
Aug 14, 2012 - 02:00pm PT
Jon

What would have been on your equipment list if this were to be something you would have done?

Just curious! I'll type you mine if you like.
Studly

Trad climber
WA
Aug 14, 2012 - 02:00pm PT
Why couldn't they have cut some rope off the end of their rope to make prusiks? Were they rapping with 50m ropes as well? As that would be criminal.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Aug 14, 2012 - 02:01pm PT
I carry prussiks even in the Gunks... lol

I can't imagine staring down 3000+ feet of unknown stone with no ascenders. Hilarious.

Although I hardly think it's "criminal".
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Aug 14, 2012 - 02:12pm PT
70m rope - quantity 2
ATC - 1
Biners - 20
Camera - 1
Cell phone - 1
Power bars - 6
Water - 2 quarts
1 copy of the Supertopo Noobs Guide to Rappelling El Capitan
YOSAR phone number
Silver

Gym climber
Aug 14, 2012 - 02:13pm PT
Copy cat! ;)

the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Aug 14, 2012 - 02:18pm PT
Just saw this thread. Ho man what an interesting turn of events.

This all could have been avoided if the guy on top of the problem rappel followed the sage advice from the movie Vertical Limit. "you did the right thing to cut the rope, any good climber would have".

I agree I think it's best the OP doesn't comment here much until the court case is finished. But then I REALLY hope he comes and gives the Trip Report.

As mentioned folks who post and admit mistakes get points for being able to do it. Of course he'll be flamed but that didn't stop him before did it?

It sounds like no one got hurt. Not too big a deal, chalk this one up as a learning experience. I'm sure it will be a great, once in a lifetime, story once a little time has passed and he can see the humor in it. Rappeling the nose with little experience and no way to get back up the rope? That's classic!
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Aug 14, 2012 - 02:19pm PT
+

ATC - 2 (in case of a fumble)
Ascenders and aiders - 2 ea.
Rain/wind shell.
Brain bucket.
PAS.

crasic

climber
Aug 14, 2012 - 02:22pm PT
Well as a conciliation prize the stuck rappeler got to go down the whole way courtesy of the yosar 3000' lowering line.

Not in the best style,granted, but, mission accomplished.

So where's the TR?
rectorsquid

climber
Lake Tahoe
Aug 14, 2012 - 02:25pm PT
This is interesting. A bunch of people who regularly participate in an "extreme" sport, some of whom have either self rescued themselves because they made mistakes and some who might have even been rescued by others, are all condemning some guys who participated in an "extreme" sport where they needed a rescue because of their mistakes.

It seems perfectly reasonable to have a law that says that a person must pay for their negligence.

But is climbing itself negligent? What about big wall climbing? People are rescued off the nose quite often. Statistically, climbing the nose may be negligent just because it's climbing the nose and if people who are qualified do it, they will still need a rescue some percentage of the time. Or does needing a rescue immediately place one in the category of unqualified?

One guy here draws the line at "moron" which is the most juvenile thing a person can do. Name calling is so amazingly counter-productive that it makes him look like, I hate to say it, a moron.

Someone else just shrugs it off as the price of freedom. Let people try things if they want no matter the cost.

The question that should be discussed is where the line should be drawn. Not this one situation but how the line that was crossed can be set in stone so that anyone who wants to go rap El Cap can read the law regarding negligence and measure themselves against it.

This seems impossible. People will make mistakes. We will read about it and call them names. Nothing will change. At least they had the same spirit of adventure that is respected in the climbing community even if they lacked everything else needed to complete their task successfully.

Dave

P.S. SAR did not HAVE to go get them. If the SAR people all quit and no one else took the job and the rangers adopted a policy of letting people die, they would have died. People made the choice now and a long time ago to go rescue them at their own risk. It was their choice to join up. If you can't handle the idea of rescuing someone who made a terrible mistake because you think that they are a moron, please quit. No one wants a rescuer who hates the person they are rescuing any more than they want a doctor that doesn't like patients.
rectorsquid

climber
Lake Tahoe
Aug 14, 2012 - 02:30pm PT
rappelling is not climbing. It is an inherently dangerous activity...

Climbing is also an inherently dangerous activity.

Cavers rap all of the time. It is the essence of their sport. To them, climbing in way dangerous and rappelling is probably predictable and controllable.

And car racers probably think that cavers and climbers are both nuts.

We are all nuts that take risks that others think are pointless and stupid. There is no argument in saying that rappelling is someone more dangerous. Lots of things are more dangerous and the level of danger that you perceive is set by your viewpoint, not by the actual real danger involved.

Dave
Silver

Gym climber
Aug 14, 2012 - 02:33pm PT
(2) 70m 10 mil static lines
(1) 9.5 dynamic
(1) handful of stoppers and cams
(1) ATC
(1) Gri Gri
(1) Extra ATC
(20) Biners
(1) Set of Jumars
(1) set of Ladders
(1) 1 gallon of water
(5) slim jims
(2) bags of peanuts
(1) bag of pork rinds
(1) space blanket
(1) pair of gloves
(1) headlamp
(1) rain coat
(1) speedo for sunning on Dolt tower.
(6) cold ones
(1) Some webbing and a few pieces of accesory cord.
(1) helmet


Id bring the gri gri because after that much rappelling your hand is going to be tired and some of those anchors would hold a truck so you could simul rap a fair bit of that.

plus after eating lots of pork rinds your hands are greasy and holding the rope gets tricky. ;)
Silver

Gym climber
Aug 14, 2012 - 02:37pm PT
And when one is loath to leave back up anchors one tends even to short change the adequacy of that.

I personally have never understood this mentality. I'm leaving the rack behind if it means getting to the ground safe.

Your life is worth more than a few hundred bucks in gear I would hope.

EDIT

I do not condem these guys at all. I bet is was fun till they hit camp 5, and if they had hit the raps right they are almost home free with a straight shot to Dolt almost from there, and a straight shot to the deck from Dolt basically with one anchor being a little left but easily swung over too.

This would be a non issue and we would be reading a TR and not this stuff.
crasic

climber
Aug 14, 2012 - 02:37pm PT
I think the problem most people are having isn't the act of rappelling itself or the rescue but their apparent lack of respect for the rock and their apparent lack of preparedness.

What they did was no different then the three that jumped the railing at the top of the vernal last year and got swept away. Except those three were less lucky. Both were moronic acts when considering their apparent lack of consideration of risk and preparedness to handle a common, predictable situation.

As you pointed out, climbing and rappelling has countless inherent dangers that will get even the most experienced climber stuck or killed. We made a decision long ago to help rescue those who risk their lives climbing when these dangers rear their head. However, there is little room for adding MORE danger by being negligent or stupid.
karodrinker

Trad climber
San Jose, CA
Aug 14, 2012 - 02:44pm PT
Not me Riley, I have NEVER done ANYTHING stupid. Ever. Nope not even once. Lol
crasic

climber
Aug 14, 2012 - 02:45pm PT
It's just that most folks first first rappel epic is two pitches up a 5.9 ...LOL

Indeed, and didn't require a YOSAR call out.

10b4me

Ice climber
dingy room at the Happy boulders hotel
Aug 14, 2012 - 03:00pm PT
1) maybe these guys should have climbed the Nose first to familiarize themselves with the rap stations.
2) why didn't they rap the NWRR on Half Dome?
Paul Martzen

Trad climber
Fresno
Aug 14, 2012 - 03:57pm PT
When I first started climbing, my buddy and I would drive up to the Robbin's shop in Fresno for gear and advice. We had no idea what we were doing of course and a couple guys working at the shop seemed to sneer at us a little, so we avoided them. Doug Weins was always incredibly patient with us and would give us bits of advice and suggestions for us to experiment with. We kept returning for his advice and suggestions and would pretty much do our best to follow his instructions. Now Doug was a frequent partner of Rowell and Gillette and did a lot of bad ass adventures, but we knew nothing of that till we got to watch various slide shows. We trusted his advice because he did not overreact or demean us. He listened to our screwball ideas and helped us learn better.

In 1984, I read a story by Jim Cassidy about rafting the Kings River from Yucca Point to Garnet Dike, at that time an impressive feat. The Kings was my home river but I knew nothing about that section, except that I wanted to do it. I had just gotten off the Grand Canyon and so was feeling pretty solid. I call Jim up at his shop and ask for advice. He could have been insulted that the first time we talk I brazenly suggest I will kayak the most difficult whitewater he has ever done. But, being Jim, he just asks me what I have already paddled that might be comparable. What is the hardest stuff I have done. I tell him and he thinks about it for a few moments. "Well," he says, "You should try paddling Cherry Creek or the Forks of the Kern first. See how that goes. If they seem easy then you are ready for the upper Kings." He tells me "No, don't do it," but gives me good suggestions of what I should do that might lead towards my goal. So I had Jim to thank a couple weeks later when I paddled Cherry Creek and got spanked pretty good. Class 5 was whole new world that I was clueless about. But with that first advice, I started learning.

When people ask me for advice, I try to emulate Doug and Jim.
GhoulweJ

Trad climber
El Dorado Hills, CA
Aug 14, 2012 - 04:10pm PT
The guys r hosers.
That being said, I have some tales of risk and luck that I'll save for impressing the chicks.

Guys shouldn't be charged for the rescue. Tax dollars at work (I pay plenty). Better use of funds than the super train to nowhere.

Glad u survived, now take an oath to NOT reproduce.... EVER! ;)
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Aug 14, 2012 - 04:18pm PT
I liken Rappelling to presidential politics...a choice between the lesser of two evils.
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Aug 14, 2012 - 04:39pm PT
First he should have tried this first.

Credit: lostinshanghai

People were correct by saying or suggested/advised try something less or more practical first before choosing the real nose [El Cap] and again practice, practice and additional understanding of what is involved in rapping [not the singing]. Werner is correct “All it takes is a good brain. Do you have one?”

These guys obvious did not. No jugs? Well that is a good clue these guys did not have brains. Correct rope lengths and not all fixed rappel anchors are the same length. On the nose, one has to know which ones to be on the correct route after being next to the Great Roof then proceeding through the grey bands finally ending up at Dolt Tower; from there it is straight and a breeze.

People say or are upset that they were or called morons. I would take morons and use the word idiots. Just like going into a whorehouse: if you never have been in one, then don’t go in.

A fine, yes but not a spank on the hand; consider what if for some reason and not human err either with the chopper or the rescue team and nature wind/heat, falling rock, decides to change the course of this event to harming or killing crew members and damaging the aircraft how much would that cost be. What about the cost to the killed crew members and suffering to their wives and family. Aircraft can be replaced no biggie: what $750k?

Happens all the time with or on an extraction team getting your main target out of the situation, it could be a business man or somebody of interest that has been snatched. [not the kind in the whorehouse] If you have a good team with an addition distraction team using plan [A] plan and a few other back up systems in place by using the brain/experience all team members come back [then again unforeseen things could change that to disaster as well] but if you lack the skills or are disorganized no one comes back. Hundreds of them and happens every day just never reported for good reasons.

Take the example of the pirating off the Gulf and Southeast Asia. Some companies pay the ransom better off than creating more chaos that is why all our goods imported are higher.

Now if the guys that went down had an insurance plan with a climbing clause saying it will pay for said rescue then hey! let the party begin.

Edit: for some reason that last part went to bold, I did not make it bbbbb bold. ????
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Aug 14, 2012 - 04:53pm PT
Ironically, this thread is making me want to rap the nose!

But I also remember the last time I was at the top of the Nose and remembered how much I wouldn't have relished even rapping that last pitch.

Plus I'm not the type that enjoys carrying gear up there.

Just funny that It sounds fun now

Peace

Karl
Silver

Gym climber
Aug 14, 2012 - 04:55pm PT
While I think the op should do what he wants I think he would be better served for a rap day doing Middle Earth and rapping the lower falls.

this would have been a good warm up to bigger things but who the hell am I and what the hell do i know.

rwedgee

Ice climber
canyon country,CA
Aug 14, 2012 - 05:16pm PT
"Exhibit A for the defense in this case would be this thread. Viewed in its entirety, the conversation could be interpreted as goading the OP into undertaking the "adventure". I enjoy Werners blunt commentary, but I suspect he will temper his future comments. Supertopo bears some responsibility."

Did I read that correctly ??????????
"Supertopo bears some responsibility."

"Yes your honor, I checked on the Taco and they said go for it so we did"

CMac better put up a disclaimer "stuff on the internet might not be true".

That should cover it.



Prod

Trad climber
Aug 14, 2012 - 06:05pm PT
Rwedgee.

Maybe you should reread the thread. I did this morning and didn't find one example of someone suggesting that Chris rap the nose. 2 people gave advice on the anchors but most said don'tdo it.

Prod.
The user formerly known as stzzo

climber
Sneaking up behind you
Aug 14, 2012 - 06:12pm PT
We shouldn't be discouraging people for asking for help when they need it (which charging for rescue would accomplish), but we should be discouraging woefully unprepared people from getting into situations that will, most likely, require rescue. As the sport becomes more popular, this will become a bigger problem and its best to implement a system now to combat this.

I see these as the same thing.

Discourage them from needing help by motivating them to think carefully and prepare well for what they're about to do.

If people knew that a rescue may cost them $10K+, they might take extra steps to avoid it.

High price doesn't discourage people from asking for help. They are at liberty to decide how much they value their life and decide accordingly. Only their mind discourages them from asking for help.

Dingus said it well in the Cathedral Peak thread: "sometimes, being better prepared means doing something else".
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Aug 14, 2012 - 06:17pm PT
Surfacially, it appears as though they entered this venture ill-prepared and under-trained, based on our assumptions, which may or may not be true.

Chris - we really need to hear from you, buddy...
Googlymoogly

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 14, 2012 - 06:47pm PT
I am good to my word and will give details. I Haven't been ignoring anyone I just haven't been near a computer. I will be able to write a lot more this coming weekend. The one thing I will clear up now though is that the rumor stating we didn't have ascenders is false. I'll write a lot more this weekend
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Aug 14, 2012 - 06:49pm PT
Thanks, Chris.

Now everyone leave him alone for a while til he responds, eh?
cintune

climber
Midvale School for the Gifted
Aug 14, 2012 - 06:54pm PT
crasic

climber
Aug 14, 2012 - 06:59pm PT
Epic clusters with happy endings are always fun to read, popcorn ready!
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Aug 14, 2012 - 07:08pm PT
Now everyone leave him alone for a while til he responds, eh?

You've been the main, stand-out prodding him, hahaha.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Aug 14, 2012 - 07:13pm PT
Did I read that correctly ??????????
"Supertopo bears some responsibility."

maybe not the best choice of words, I admit. I did not mean CMac or the website was responsible, rather I was referring to the collective input of the participants in the discussion.

Having re-read the thread I will agree there were red flags for the OP, Cragman was the first, with an unequivocal "HELL NO" but there were also posts that could be construed as tacit approval, there was also posts dismissing the OP as a troll.

In hindsight the OP should have taken advantage of the experience of any one of a number of experienced individuals on SP who would have been generous with their advice. Maybe this thread should be posted up as a TR so that another "sport rappeller" does not make the same mistake.

As for the lack of Jumars, did that really matter? If he had them he still would have been stuck on the Nose needing a rescue, right?

Ultimately the individual is responsible for their own success or failure.

edit: Just saw the OP's recent post, kudos to him for posting up.
OR

Trad climber
Aug 14, 2012 - 08:19pm PT
This may have been said before but SAR loves this kind of event. Good practice and an easy rescue. All the BS about SAR being put out is just BS. They sign up for the thrill of doing just this type of thing. Thats why there are kids lined up to join SAR in the valley. They were all smiles and giddy with excitement when this call came in. Bad form by the silly rappers though. The $$$ to us taxpayers sucks. Fines are in order.
Alexey

Trad climber
San Jose, CA
Aug 14, 2012 - 08:22pm PT
Hey Chris,
looking forward to hear you story.
Glad that you get such adventure without harm.
You created unintentionally a very interesting ST tread
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Aug 14, 2012 - 08:27pm PT
Still waiting to hear the trip report which could clear a lot of things up, such as the reason(s) for bailing. Obviously if someone was injured its different than if they're just gripped with fear and don't want to wait half a day for the next Nose party to go by. If there was some technical error, like they got stuck in the middle of nowhere with no way out, I guess I'd have to hear the story. Although if the rapellers are in some kind of legal trouble they may not want to tell the story just yet.
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Aug 14, 2012 - 09:12pm PT
Chris:

Do not know if you “would not ever do that again” but just wish I had the correct information then maybe could have pulled it off. No biggie.

Correction info, gear, water……. but where to go [I am assuming] and getting the correct anchors is all you needed. So a future try is in order. Your fine might say do not attempt or do this ever again, if it does just go back to the judge and say I would like to make some amendments to this order.

Rohrer will be in the park tomorrow up in Crane Flat site #223 for seven days and plans to be in the valley, the next week starting the 22nd he will be in the valley for a week in upper pines Site #? but will give to you tomorrow, here you will get first hand instructions and where to go, so don’t feel that bad. This way you will have the correct info or Hey! I and my partner have a new perspective on the situation.

That’s all you need plus making sure not run into teams coming up, weather conditions, plenty of water…………………………..
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Aug 14, 2012 - 09:16pm PT
Considering the very wide range of experience and knowledge on this forum; it makes sense for the more experienced people to respectfully accept their responsibilities as mentors

pc

climber
Aug 14, 2012 - 09:43pm PT
Respectfully Tom...

I think he was strongly advised to NOT do it for a number of very good reasons. He chose to ignore that advice and plough ahead anyway.

And I'd say the Taco's probably a very good place to find mentors for later individual guidance in person or by email but not a great place to expect crisp clear answers/advice to general questions. Too many trolls asking and answering. You can probably figure out the diamonds in the rough if you've been here for a while but I think this was his first post?...

$.02 and glad he survived.

pc

Vegasclimber

Trad climber
Las Vegas, NV.
Aug 14, 2012 - 11:24pm PT
pc has a good point.

Not only was he brand new to the forum, I have seen many cases over the years of new posters asking for advice, and then choosing to ignore all of it and do as they wish anyways.

Not saying Chris is one of those, but I'd be willing to bet he didn't realize the amount of experience behind the avatars.

Looking forward to the TR and the responses that follow. Dude has balls, that's for sure. Let's see how the brain equipment works.
le_bruce

climber
Oakland, CA
Aug 15, 2012 - 12:31am PT
Atta boy, Chris. No shame - we all each and every one of us have f'd up in our lives, have relied on help from others, and have made boneheaded plays that we couldn't have gotten out of without help. Yeah there are varying degrees of this, but humility is the lesson from all of it. Well, maybe some shame has a place. So shame, then humility.

Glad you'll be writing it up.

PS - I think I saw you (if you were the one who was lowered rather than lifted; if not, your pard) loading up into a ranger's car in front of EC meadow. I asked the ranger about the rescue and if everyone was ok. He kind of motioned his eyebrows towards you and said, "Yup, everybody's ok." You looked utterly stomped, but had your chin up. Whoever said that you'll laugh about this one day is spot on.

Damnit I'm getting the chuckles now... thinking of both your debacle (stranded in space over the Great Roof?! Unable to ascend your ropes?!) and some of my own from the past... maybe we'll share a campfire some time and swap stories of idiocy and folly.

Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Aug 15, 2012 - 12:59am PT
To insert a somber note into this discussion, some of the best people lose their lives by making equally simple mistakes. When Frank Sacherer and Joe Weis died rapelling the Grandes Jorasses, Frank was killed instantly in a fall (obviously not tied into the anchor) and the only two prusiks they brought on the climb were in his back pack. Joe Weis then tried to rappel down alone, realized he was off route and about to go off the ropes onto the north face, and needed to re-ascend. Lacking prussiks, he could go neither up nor down on the icy rope and hung there until he died. The major difference? The weather. The helicoptors could not fly for five days in Chamonix.
Spider Savage

Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
Aug 15, 2012 - 01:08am PT
I've looked at those topos showing the bail-out rap anchors and contemplated the same thing. But I know better and I've shown restraint. Rapping 3,000 ft because you don't have the pull-up power to climb it, just seems, unright.


However, I think there is a market here for guided rappels. Possible decent cash income for those who know the route and have the experience. Werner made it sound easy. It probably is for him since I'm sure he's been all over that thing.

So, how about a couple of dirtbags to mule the gear up there for $125 each and someone skilled and experienced to lead the descent for say, $300. Total out of pocket, $550 to rap the nose. I'll bet you could do it full time for that price.
OR

Trad climber
Aug 15, 2012 - 07:49am PT
Damnit I'm getting the chuckles now... thinking of both your debacle (stranded in space over the Great Roof?! Unable to ascend your ropes?!) and some of my own from the past... maybe we'll share a campfire some time and swap stories of idiocy and folly.

So true Bruce. Can you imagine being in a pinch like that! I hate to admit it but one of my biggest fears on Elcap was the humiliation of having to be rescued by poeple I knew at YOSAR. Never happened thank god.

Jan makes a good point too. Some of the best died making silly mistakes. Every person here has done something silly and they are full of sh-t otherwise.

These guys have taken it to a whole new level though.
Delhi Dog

climber
Good Question...
Aug 15, 2012 - 08:35am PT
"These guys have taken it to a whole new level though."
:-)
The Chief

climber
Climber from the Land Mongols under the Whites
Aug 15, 2012 - 09:18am PT
Amazing how attempting to do something "out of the box" brings out the best of the local crowds. Especially those of a religious "Jesus loves and forgives you" soap box club.

Lest we forget this incredible feat that was totally chastised by the local masses during and after for a long ass time.





Going up or going down. No difference. It is the adventure and challenge that matters. Taking it to the next level. No harm no foul in my book.
justthemaid

climber
Jim Henson's Basement
Aug 15, 2012 - 09:29am PT
It will be interesting to compare the TR from the OP to all the hearsay that has been fueling the last 100 posts.

Edit to add:

Karl:
Ironically, this thread is making me want to rap the nose!

Actually.. me too Karl. I don't have 5 days to drag myself up piss-soaked ledges. I'll get the low-down from Grossman on the best booty-collecting rap-route and I'm totally in. ;)
Cragman

Trad climber
June Lake, California....via the Damascus Road
Aug 15, 2012 - 09:33am PT
How pathetic of you, Rick, for attacking a SAR professional because he happens to be a Christian.

Pathetic...and predictable from this crowd.
The Chief

climber
Climber from the Land Mongols under the Whites
Aug 15, 2012 - 10:03am PT
No attack DEAN.... just an observation of some behavior in public by the local masses.


It is our actions in public that makes the world think. Especially if they know our professional and religious standings. The old "How would Buddha, Muhammad, Jesus etc act and do" in this case. I am as guilty as rest. Maybe I am getting old....

Done my share of SAR work DEAN .... lots of it in different situ's all over this planet for well over 20 something years. I even survived a crash at the bottom of this planet in the process of completing one. I too have a hard time with many of the recent SAR Ops as well. That don't mean nothing.

These two young'ns did nothing different than what so many of us did when we were their ages, DEAN, no difference. Remember that next time you or anyone else here goes off on any young persons innovation and desire.



Seems Werner had the best of this lots philosophy. He has been at this SAR gig far longer than most of us. Just saying DEAN.
Cragman

Trad climber
June Lake, California....via the Damascus Road
Aug 15, 2012 - 10:29am PT
Oh, I get it now, Rick. So when a young person (or anyone else for that matter) comes here to this site for advice, receives PLENTY of advice to NOT do what he is planning, then goes out and does it anyway and gets in trouble, we just look the other way, pat him on the back, and call it good adventure.

No accountability.

How different the responses here would be had he or his partner gotten hurt or killed, or a SAR member, or anyone else on the wall.

Whatever....I'm done with this.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Aug 15, 2012 - 10:43am PT
Come on Dean, you know your not done with this, its like watching NASCAR, once that car starts spinning there is no way you are looking away.

I did not think the comment was an attack. I think the comment was off base because the issue is not morals and sinning, unless you think ignoring advice on ST is a sin, and that would make ST members GOD!
The Chief

climber
Climber from the Land Mongols under the Whites
Aug 15, 2012 - 10:51am PT
And how many times have we all been advised to not do this or do that when we were that young, and we did it any way?

Like I said, Werner gave the best advise on this thread IMO. He knew that regardless what anyone stated here, these two young guns were 100% on target acquisition mode and were committed to the deal.

Personally, I would have kept my intentions quiet, to ourselves and just gone out and done it... Chris.



Oh, can anyone here differentiate between this adventure and one free soloing/simuling in a day up or BASEing off the Nose? Or how about Ice Skating on all them lakes up in the BC this past Winter. Curious....
Farouk

Boulder climber
Sylvan Grove
Aug 15, 2012 - 11:29am PT
Werner told the guys to do it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! How could they resist!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Vegasclimber

Trad climber
Las Vegas, NV.
Aug 15, 2012 - 12:04pm PT
Off Topic Marmot says, "Dafuq happened to this topic?!"
Off Topic Marmot says, "Dafuq happened to this topic?!"
Credit: Vegasclimber

OT Marmot sez "C'mon guys. Let's not destroy another good thread attacking each other...let it go and let's go eat some flowers...it will be ok..."
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Aug 15, 2012 - 12:10pm PT
its the VALLEy. Stupid does as stupid sees. Stupid can be dangerous and stupid can endanger lives of rescuers.

Stupid went, stupid failed, stupid got rescued. It was all fairly stupid.. Just the IDEA was stupid.
karodrinker

Trad climber
San Jose, CA
Aug 15, 2012 - 12:31pm PT
It's an actual route.... The rohrer rap route... Why is it so irresponsible? Big effing deal, they screwed up somehow. We don't even know what happened and it's all "oh whatta bunch a morons, I'd never do that!"

Edit: fair enough. But just so it's clear, I was ragging on all Christians
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Aug 15, 2012 - 12:34pm PT
Don't bag on Dean for his faith, that's wack.

He's speaking from an SAR standpoint.

I'm a heathen like many of you, but god bashing is lame.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Aug 15, 2012 - 12:37pm PT
...god bashing is lame.

Nope.

Too general a statement. Like "Don't judge."

God bashing in poor style is lame. Big difference.

......

He's speaking from an SAR standpoint.

If so, then he should say so, that he is speaking from that one narrow perspective. He doesn't.

The fact is, he tends to see things - many things - in black n white... which poorly reflects adventuring in the mountains, the whole of it; or the wide variation in human interests or values that we humans bring to this activity.

Climbing activities are inherently trouble. We all draw our lines differently. Most of us respect this.

Bottom line: there is no absolute morality across all living things. That's the viewpoint of many. Not in life. Certainly not in climbing or mountaineering or whatever the risky outdoors venture. Where to draw the line - before the crux of the biscuit or after? that is the question.

"Oh yeah, says who?"

.....

Apart from the rappellers themselves of course, let's remember what started the main thread brouhaha ...
"They should be prosecuted..."

"Oh yeah, says who?"
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Aug 15, 2012 - 01:04pm PT
I have a hard time believing the SAR guys weren't totally delighted to do this rescue.

The Climber SAR guys don't get a penny unless they are working a rescue and this one would be super cush with no grueling carry-out.

And the Rangers, who do get paid otherwise, have to feel good about doing something exciting and beneficial to somebody rather than more mundane duties.

I might be an expenditure of money I admit but hey, they go up on El Cap to train now and then so what's the diff?

For the guys involved. Wonder what made him continue past the lip of the great roof when he could see the end of his rope right there?

PEace

karl
The Chief

climber
Climber from the Land Mongols under the Whites
Aug 15, 2012 - 01:11pm PT
I find it rather interesting how some here on the TOPO , regardless of any specific political or religious affiliation, automatically take on personal responsibility for a general opinion and then scream attack.

Seems those same folks initiated an "attack" on the OP's as exemplified here on this thread.

We got schooled to call that "feeling guilty...busted" during any Interrogation Op at SERE.




For the record, I know Chris rather well actually. Took him up the EB on Whitney a couple years back when he was 16 etc. He is a good solid respectable young man from a solid Christian up bringing. That is why I pointed this specific issue up.


Amazing how "The Rest of the Story" seems to shine a whole different light on things.

Edit: The Kid after completing his Dream climb in less than 3 hours....
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Aug 15, 2012 - 01:13pm PT
Stupidity Karl..The park service must have agreed , hence the fine.


BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Aug 15, 2012 - 01:15pm PT
Rohrer's rap routes from almost any place on the Nose have sure helped people over the years. It isn't that noticeable. I'm living proof that you can go from way up an overhanging route to the ground in only a few hours, sometimes not even coming down your own route. You just see a convenient line of anchors and off you go.

Then the sun comes out and you feel like a dufus.
WBraun

climber
Aug 15, 2012 - 01:23pm PT
Yes Rohrer's Nose rap route in particular has saved countless rescues from happening.

The retreat factor is overwhelming over all these years.

There was a guy soloing the Nose years ago late in the season and got hit by a massive rain and snow storm as he was topping out.

He encountered waist deep snow at the top.

He decided to rappel the route (Nose) back to the ground.

A rescue operation was avoided ......
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Aug 15, 2012 - 03:40pm PT
If it is true that they were rescued at the anchor by the Great Roof or in the area now makes sense that they could not make or retrieve their second rope.

Their ropes or the one being pulled down got hung up, Rohrer corrected this problem by placing an anchor 25m above the roof below camp 5 on route so this would not happen, they should have rapped to this anchor or the correct one.

Taking a guess will have to wait till chris gives his version.

Climbing back up on stuck rope is spooky since that rope says OK! I give in I will come out of the spot now when the climber is 3/4 up and now takes a screamer. If a back up system is not in place and by bringing couple of cams, pins whatever might have but I say might have corrected the problem.

Which brings up a subject for discussion should they be marked as in placing a small colored tag or with additional stealth reflection as when using a light pointing down during the night will reflect back for observation.

Day time with the sun hitting it, wind blowing, people might not like the sparkling effect but this can be corrected by using creative thinking on how to approach this problem.



Cragman

Trad climber
June Lake, California....via the Damascus Road
Aug 15, 2012 - 03:51pm PT
My comments on this thread were from two perspectives...both SAR and from that of a mentor.

I'm sure Chris is a very nice young man...he came hear for advice...props for that....then against most of the advice given him, and with encouragement from some, he went and did this.

Apparently I'm wrong about what being a mentor means....I thought it was that as we grow older and wiser, others can learn by our mistakes, and avoid those. Again, I am sure had there been a tragedy, the comments here would be drastically different.

But no, according to the spray here, adventure alone is great reason to not adhere to the advice of experienced elders.....

Why do any of you even give a crap then when one of these young ones dies?

I think the bottom line here is so many posters are against ANY kind of involvment with the powers that be...or TOOLS as the LEO's are called here....it's more a matter of wanting to see another climber get away with something.....

Meh......
The Chief

climber
Climber from the Land Mongols under the Whites
Aug 15, 2012 - 04:11pm PT
Dean....

Do you mentor your kids in the same tone, verbiage and fashion you did here? Think about that one before you reply.


Any time SAR has to go on an operation, THEY put their lives on the line....it shouldn't have to be for a**holes like this.

Like I posted, Chris is a good solid respectable young man with some multi-pitch Grade III/IV climbing background experience etc. I know cus I spent a whole Spring/Summer (2010) "mentoring" him and his Father throughout the Eastside in preparation for his Dream Whitney EB climb at age 16 which he completed in stellar and beautiful form.

Even Werner posted that he was not the one that screwed up.

PS: Alex "H" free solos shet all over the Valley. Regardless his incredible ability, all it takes is one small rockfall or a broken hold and he is airborne toast. He falls from a crowded route like the Nose onto another party, they go as well. Think about that one Dean.

No difference in my book.
WBraun

climber
Aug 15, 2012 - 04:15pm PT
Cragman

Calling these guys "a-holes" here, right off the bate nullifies & voids everything you stand for with your arguments in your so called "sar professionalism" relating to this incident.
Farouk

Boulder climber
Sylvan Grove
Aug 15, 2012 - 04:19pm PT
ahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Might be time to put those sleeves back on your shirt Cragman!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Werner said it was ok and they did it..so end of story!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
10b4me

Ice climber
dingy room at the Happy boulders hotel
Aug 15, 2012 - 04:36pm PT
For the record, I know Chris rather well actually. Took him up the EB on Whitney a couple years back when he was 16

so we can blame is lack of judgment on his age

Like I posted, Chris is a good solid respectable young man with some multi-pitch Grade III/IV climbing background experience etc.

what does this have to do with rapping the Nose?
did you also mentor him on the fact that rapping is the most dangerous part of climbing?
Clint Cummins

Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
Aug 15, 2012 - 04:37pm PT
lostinshanghai,

I think you misunderstood the cause of the stuck rappeller.
It was not a stuck rappel rope.
Instead, one person rapped off the left side of Camp 5 instead of the right side.
So he could not reach the next anchor down.
Then, since he did not know how to reascend the rope, he was stuck.

Strangely they had a third rope to handle a stuck rope, and a rack to lead pitches, but no ascenders or prusik knowledge to handle this basic problem.
The Chief

climber
Climber from the Land Mongols under the Whites
Aug 15, 2012 - 04:54pm PT
Like I posted, Chris is a good solid respectable young man with some multi-pitch Grade III/IV climbing background experience etc...... what does this have to do with rapping the Nose?

Absolutely nothing. It was directed to Cragman and his mentoring verbiage and attitude.

...did you also mentor him on the fact that rapping is the most dangerous part of climbing?

Yup! And right back at ya... "what does this have to do with rapping the Nose?"


Ironically, I gave him zero advice on this issue. I stayed neutral when he asked me via email. He is a big boy and can make his own decisions just as WE all did when we did the crazy shet we ALL did when we were his age.

Now, how about all them bad ass "young" superstar Free Soloists that you all bow down to in awe. Or Wingsuiters? Or Speed Ascent Guns simul climbing with other folks on route.... Why no shet given them for their endangerment behavior?


Absolutely ZERO, NO difference here...
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Aug 15, 2012 - 05:04pm PT
Clint

Ok! stand corrected. that area is where one can make a mistake that is why Tom made some changes. He plans to be in the valley tommorrow. He is setting up camp at Crane Flat today. I am sure you guys will get together.
Breakfast in the morning at the same place.

And true about your last thoughts.

Somehow rumors of no jugs, yes there were jugs so looked to me a lot of misinformation but finally coming out. Thanks
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Aug 15, 2012 - 05:09pm PT
...did you also mentor him on the fact that rapping is the most dangerous part of climbing?

Yup! And right back at ya... "what does this have to do with rapping the Nose?"

Just to set the record straight, rapping is NOT the most dangerous part of climbing. Look at any report of climbing injuries and fatalities. It is perhaps one of the most dangerous parts, but it ain't in first place, or even all that close.
From what I've seen in published reports, most dangerous part is just what you'd expect: leader falls, pro either pulls or isn't close enough to prevent injury/death.

So we should at least give credit to these young men for correctly identifying the most dangerous part of climbing (leading) and removing that from the equation. Still their execution was flawed.
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Aug 15, 2012 - 05:19pm PT
There wasn't a lot good advice given here when he came for advice. Things like "don't do it!", "rappeling is lame", or "climb instead", didn't give the OP reasons why he shouldn't do it. It just comes off as bitching.

If folks said things like: a lot of the rappel stations are not where your expect them to be, the rappel line is not the climbing line, you need to know how to free a stuck rope, if you can't unstick a stuck rope you need to know how to ascend a rope that may give way at anytime, you should be aware of the loose blocks on the route that can kill you or others, you should practice rappeling some other less commiting multipitch climbs first. Have you ever climbed Royal Arches? If not it's fun climbing plus you'll be able to practice rappeling many pitches and rappeling route finding.

It sounds like the OP IS being held accountable by the law. Did anyone who posted here but didn't give any constructive advice why he shouldn't do it, or how he should be prepared to do it safely feel accountable? I didn't think so.
The Chief

climber
Climber from the Land Mongols under the Whites
Aug 15, 2012 - 05:27pm PT
In my many years as a NAVY SAR Operator, I can honestly tell ya that we lived for shet like this. Some of the best SAR training/operational evolutions we ever had were of this nature. We always got some great hands on experience outta these type gigs. Made us that much better for the next gig. Of course, we weren't volunteers, it was our job. We were "professionals" that did this stuff day in and day out and were depended on regularly to be so in order to save lives.

Best thing about these type situ's where there was a "no harm no foul" ending, we would have some great tales to tell that eve at the Club over some heinous amounts of beer. Talk about laughing our asses off. Yup... good stuff.

Talk about rapping? Try doing a 3-500 footer out of a hovering helo blowing copious amounts of air and debris onto you, no less than 10' from the side of "The Nose", or "Dawn Wall" or....




Prod

Trad climber
Aug 15, 2012 - 06:28pm PT
My comments on this thread were from two perspectives...both SAR and from that of a mentor.

I'm sure Chris is a very nice young man...he came hear for advice...props for that....then against most of the advice given him, and with encouragement from some, he went and did this.

To me there is nothing Mentorish in this statement.

Don't do it.

You come to ST and the very first thing you post is about rappelling arguably the best free climb in the world?

Go back to the gym, and practice your rappelling there....YOSAR has enough to do.

And please show me where anyone encouraged this lad to do this? It just didn't happen. He got advice about anchors from 2 or 3 poeple who had done it.

Mentor my ass. Soap box preacher is more like it.

Prod.
Vegasclimber

Trad climber
Las Vegas, NV.
Aug 15, 2012 - 07:22pm PT
Soap box preacher or not...he's managed, with one post, to generate at least a dozen responses that are all going to lead to the same thing: a decent thread getting totally off topic and getting ruined while you all snipe at each other. Again.

1. Definition of insanity: Doing the same sh#t over and over while expecting different results.

2. Fighting with a troll is like wrestling with a pig in the mud - after a while you should realize that the pig is enjoying it.

So, again - can we please, for once, agree to drop all of this arguing bullshit and stick to the topic? Take the religious stuff back to threads that are there for that purpose.
Cragman

Trad climber
June Lake, California....via the Damascus Road
Aug 15, 2012 - 07:37pm PT
My initial posts regarding Chris and his goals regarding rapping El Cap were out of frustration.....too many deaths due to people doing things they shouldn't.

Beyond that, I simply am exasperated with the discussions here on ST over the course of time.

Case in point......whenever someone dies, all of you come on ST and offer your condolences, then the inevitable Monday Morning Quarterbacking starts. There are gobs of "what if" and "if only he" kinda posts....all after the fact when someone died.

My response to that is....exactly why I told Chris in my first post to not do this. When are we going to stop simply responding to deaths after the fact, and actually attempt to intercede by giving good, solid advice?

Fact: Yes, I am completely weary and tired of death, both here and elsewhere. Yes, I cut Chris off at the knees....sorry, a kneejerk reaction to the aforementioned weariness. Yes, I still think Werner's cavalier attitude was irresponsible.

But you all can't have this stuff both ways....if you are not willing to mentor, or give good advice to those asking for it, then don't show up on the memorial threads offering you condolences if you aren't willing to try to stop this literal bleeding.

And please, don't come to those memorial threads telling a family that "at least they died doing what they loved"....because those words simply make you feel better. They ring hollow and void to a family who are watching their loved one's casket being lowered into the ground.
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Aug 15, 2012 - 07:48pm PT
Chris

Correction info, gear, water……. but where to go [I am assuming] and getting the correct anchors is all you needed. So a future try is in order.

You first wrote: “I have read the Tom Rohrer guide but it is geared to doing it when the descent route with bolted raps wasn't established yet. Just had the wrong information “bolted raps were already established’ he updates them now and then with stainless steel. Just needs to work on replacing 2 and plans to make so not to get in the way of teams climbing or going up.

Tom will be in in Crane Flat, today, site #223 for seven days [8/15- 8/22]and plans to be in the valley during that time, the next week starting the 23rd, he will be in the valley for a week in upper pines: Site #24, This way you will have the correct information.

For a 76 year old and still going. He would glad to teach some tricks and techniques. If you cannot find him leave a note at one of the sites and somehow you and your partner can connect. I think there is photos on some threads what he looks like.

Lessons learned, you got that far [Roof], great that is the hardest.

Timing is critical as well or when to start down: Wind factor gets in the equation.

Hope you get to try again: fun rap plus an overnighter on Dolt is nice, Full Moon can be done as well providing taking head lamps and knowing the anchors. But start off with a couple of other smaller routes first until you get better experienced and then go for it.

I made the mistake assuming that your rope was hung up till Clint corrected me. So it happens to all of us.

Edit: Tom will be in the valley till or ending the 28th of Sept. so if your schedule does not work for these first two weeks plenty of time to get in touch.
Vegasclimber

Trad climber
Las Vegas, NV.
Aug 15, 2012 - 07:57pm PT
Cool post lost.I got to meet Tom at the Facelift, we had a talk and he seemed like a pretty cool dude.

Chris isn't the only one out there who thought of doing this for sure - I wanted to rap the Nose to Dolt at one time, but managed to convince myself that I shouldn't be up there unless I earned it. So far, that hasn't happened. But the info we do have sounds like a simple mistake that many could have made, going off route a bit. Just had harder implications then most. I'm sure the TR will probably bring more info to light.

I was going to send you a message regarding your last statement here Cragman, but you seem to have your email disabled. Makes it hard to have a side conversation.
Walleye

climber
The Hot Kiss on the end of a Wet Fist
Aug 15, 2012 - 07:58pm PT
Shoulda posted this in the "Quotes of Werner Braun" thread, but it just came to me now, and oh how I remember it... Not really attributable to Yogi per se, but...............

"when your numbers up, your numbers up!"

Applies to rescuees and rescuers alike, dontcha think?
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Aug 15, 2012 - 08:10pm PT
I have to say, that ive been where Cragmans probalby finds himself at the current time. The start of burn out. It can and usually does eventually. I delt mainly with airplane wrecks in mountain terrain normally. I lasted six years and can appreciate the emotions of those gooing through the same thing. I too have been shocked at the last few years of death tallies -even some i knew. Why did Doc go for the summit of Norman CLyde from finger lake at 2:00 pm??? Its FRUSTRATING to dwell, yet we do. Ill BET Werner has said the same thing in a worse manner, many times by now...at LEAST to himself, but what do i know....

But to be on THAT stone, w/o a pair of ascenders is a wee like Russian Roulet isnt it? theres a BIG DUH factor in the air here.
John M

climber
Aug 15, 2012 - 08:12pm PT
He already posted that they had ascenders.. Something happened. He hasn't said what yet. He said that he would tell us this weekend.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Aug 15, 2012 - 08:15pm PT
doh! my bad. didnt pick up on that .
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Aug 15, 2012 - 08:21pm PT
perhaps i am too old school....but why wouldnt you just carry prusiks and not ascenders. prusiks can work on two rope strands, ascenders wont.

am i missing something here?

regardless, this conversation is hilarious. if cragman had known Chris prior to the incident and Chief hadnt, i could see thier perspctives shifted 180....
The Chief

climber
Climber from the Land Mongols under the Whites
Aug 15, 2012 - 08:39pm PT
But you all can't have this stuff both ways....if you are not willing to mentor, or give good advice to those asking for it, then don't show up on the memorial threads offering you condolences if you aren't willing to try to stop this literal bleeding.

That is your opinion on what a "Mentor" is or should act like. Yours!

That advice is yours and yours only.


Please stop lecturing us on what and how a mentor should behave like. YOU DO NOT WANT TO GO THERE.... Dean.






PS: I have been preevie to have been Mentored by some of the most incredible human beings on this planet. Some wore "Tridents" but all wore a set of these....


World famous and renowned throughout all the worlds different Navy's for having the best inside scope on proper Mentorship.




This issue you have Dean is not about Mentorship. Has to do with your opinion on doing crazy sh#t.

Cragman

Trad climber
June Lake, California....via the Damascus Road
Aug 15, 2012 - 08:45pm PT
Can't have it both ways, Rick...try as you may.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Aug 15, 2012 - 08:45pm PT
regardless, this conversation is hilarious. if cragman had known Chris prior to the incident and Chief hadnt, i could see thier perspctives shifted 180....

Chief,

i am not here to defend your buddy Dean. there is much to be admired from each of you. the attacks towards one another on this thread is not admirable.

but yes your piss is being carried by the wind, hopefully it wont shift.
Cragman

Trad climber
June Lake, California....via the Damascus Road
Aug 15, 2012 - 08:56pm PT
We all must realize that when new climbers come to those that have been around for a while, our words carry weight with them.

And it is perfectly OK to look someone in the eye and tell them NOT to do something...even though it sounds 'adventurous'.

Rick has lots of history of helping people who have found themselves in the s***, as have I. He should be respected for that.

I am willing to agree to disagree with him...and certainly still respect him.

Yet I will continue to advise a younger generation when I think the course they want to take is not for them.....and when they gain the experience required for the adventure....send them off with well wishes.

EDIT: Hawkeye, as to your point about if Rick's and my relationship with Chris were switched....I would have advised anyone with his level of experience to CLIMB the Nose, not rappel it.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Aug 15, 2012 - 09:02pm PT
i understand what you are saying cragman.....and i have to ask myself....if i had to ask for beta on supertopo.....that might just be my first warning that i had a issue...i mean , how the hell does one determine they are getting good advice or bad advice?
QITNL

climber
Aug 15, 2012 - 09:09pm PT
Anyone who comes here looking for mentorship has a hole in their head. Serious.

There's maybe a half dozen folks capable of providing any information I would trust. If I wanted a straight answer, I'd email them.

Now back to the regularly scheduled entertainment....
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Aug 15, 2012 - 10:25pm PT
my point exactly Q.



WBraun

climber
Aug 15, 2012 - 10:42pm PT
Cragman you failed miserably ....

Calling these guys "a-holes" here, right off the bat nullifies & voids everything you stand for with your arguments in your so called "sar professionalism" relating to this incident.
covelocos

Trad climber
Nor Cal
Aug 16, 2012 - 12:50am PT
Now back to the regularly scheduled entertainment....
Right?!?
The Chief

climber
Climber from the Land Mongols under the Whites
Aug 16, 2012 - 01:05am PT
Dean,

You are a good man with a solid heart. Unfortunately, you have personally set the standard by revealing to all who and what you are in your moral beliefs and lifestyle. I personally was disappointed in the way you presented yourself to the OPist here on a public forum, regardless of who he was. Bad form of an example IMO. Definitely not good form/example of postive mentorship.

I knew that Chris would find out for himself in his own way, what direction to take in his decision making process. I recollected my own way of thinking when I was his age. When I got a bug up my ass to do something, no one nor anything could have stopped me. Hell, when I was 16 I decided to quit HS and join the Navy to climb the world and get to Antarctica. My family and friends thought I was nuts and a fool. I spent 24 years doing shet that 99.9% of most only dream about. Should have died 2000 times over. But I am still here and still doing crazy ass shet. Just a tad bit slower in getting on it and done.

I give Chris credit for having a goal and attempting to achieve it. Just like the late Danno and his rope jumping gig. No difference. Ironically, I never saw nor heard of anyone attempting to tell him of his potentially reckless behavior may one day get him or someone else killed.

An intricate component of mentoring someone, as I was taught by some of the best in that business, is allowing them the freedom to carry on with their own dreams and goals. In doing so, they will hopefully implement the things that you taught them in a positive and safe manner in order to succeed.

No harm no foul in this issue. Hopefully these two young men will have learned something from this incident. If they return to try again, they will be better prepared to tackle any challenge they are confronted with. Regardless if they climb or rappel it.

Just like you and I did when we were both their ages, a long ass time ago.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Aug 16, 2012 - 01:16am PT
Bad form of an example IMO. Definitely not good form/example of postive mentorship.

i dont disagree, but you are the pot calling the kettle black. there have been numerous times that you have been a "assertive" to climbers on websites from bolting to god knows what.



The Chief

climber
Climber from the Land Mongols under the Whites
Aug 16, 2012 - 01:28am PT
YUP... but I do not claim to live by the standard as Dean does and publicly claims to.

I am an old crotchety and persnickity retired Navy Chief that can act/behave in ways far worse than any of you here or on the other site could ever imagine. As that was the nature of my profession for over 24 years. I am not doing anything counter to the directives I have been taught and choose to live by.

That is the difference.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Aug 16, 2012 - 01:31am PT
well,

hard to argue with a man who agrees to being an as#@&%e.
The Chief

climber
Climber from the Land Mongols under the Whites
Aug 16, 2012 - 01:34am PT
You are gonna have to do far better than that to rile me up.

Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Aug 16, 2012 - 01:35am PT
not trying to rile you up.

calling it how i see it although it dont matter much. cheers.
The Chief

climber
Climber from the Land Mongols under the Whites
Aug 16, 2012 - 01:40am PT
...calling it how i see it although it dont matter much

Answered your own dilemna with your last post
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Aug 16, 2012 - 01:45am PT
lol....you do like having the last say. go have a beer.
The Chief

climber
Climber from the Land Mongols under the Whites
Aug 16, 2012 - 01:52am PT
Gave it up 12 years ago just after I retired. You civ's are clueless as to how to drink properly and then proceed to have a fun evening.
Captain...or Skully

climber
Aug 16, 2012 - 01:55am PT
Word, Chief.
Cragman

Trad climber
June Lake, California....via the Damascus Road
Aug 16, 2012 - 08:26am PT
Thanks for your comments, Rick. I stand by my advice to these guys to NOT rappel that route until they had more experience.

Werner is just sour grapes.....he flippantly responded to the OP with no thought, these guys got hung up.....that's your YOSAR professional right there???

Hey Werner, next winter I'll stand on top of Mammoth Mountain with a big sign pointing OB down the backside to Reds Meadow....the sign will say "Werner says it's ok".



Perhaps you should engage the brain before going off on your mishmash postings. Your words carry some weight with these youngins....

The rest of us know you've been in the sunny ditch too long....
dave goodwin

climber
carson city, nv
Aug 16, 2012 - 09:19am PT
Cragman-

I thought Werner's comments towards you were spot on. I don't see where having an attitude that people are aholes or such if you are in SAR would be beneficial to anyone. You have to rise above and perorm your duties not be judge and jury. THese are just MY opinions and not meant to be an attack.

No reason to backlash at Werner. Just reflect what he said for awhile.

take care
dave
Cragman

Trad climber
June Lake, California....via the Damascus Road
Aug 16, 2012 - 09:45am PT
Thanks for the input, Dave.

Werner and I just have a difference of opinion.....I think mitigating a circumstance is reasonable....he does not.

Look at his first post (and the rest of his, frankly) regarding the OP. There is no inquiriy as to the abilities of the OP.....just a flippant post that any of us advising against Chris' descent are "wankers".

That seems just as irresponsible to me as my analogy of me directing skiers off the back side of Mammoth Mountain....a place Mono SAR spends countless hours saving the lives of too many....who somehow think they can posthole 2 miles and 3,000 vertical feet back up the mountain.

You also have to take into consideration that this was Chris' very first post to ST.....no suspician raised there?
The Chief

climber
Climber from the Land Mongols under the Whites
Aug 16, 2012 - 09:59am PT
Thanks for your comments, Rick. I stand by my advice to these guys to NOT rappel that route until they had more experience

I really do not care nor give a rats ass about your opinion nor your advice in this case. We all have our own. That is a given. Hence the reason I did not give Chris any advice when originally approached. He was going to do what he was going to do. We all know that cus we all did the exact same thing when his age.




It was the manner in which you delivered it. Not at all typical for you and who you truly are inside.
dave goodwin

climber
carson city, nv
Aug 16, 2012 - 10:00am PT

Cragman-

Thanks for the reply and all your work helping people in the past. I have lots of respect for what SAR people do. I have been on the other side, having to be rescued once, and the people who came to my aid were very compassionate and professional.

sorry for the thread drift.

take care
dave
Cragman

Trad climber
June Lake, California....via the Damascus Road
Aug 16, 2012 - 10:02am PT
Rick, part of who I am inside is a person frustrated and tired of seeing good people die, when perhaps a little good advice might prevent that.

That to me, seems reasonable.

And for the record, I DO appreciate YOUR opinion.
The Chief

climber
Climber from the Land Mongols under the Whites
Aug 16, 2012 - 10:09am PT
Rick, part of who I am inside is a person frustrated and tired of seeing good people die.

That my friend is something that is completely outta your hands. You can only do what you can do.

People will do what they want, regardless our old experienced ass advice. Just as we did waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay back when we were their big balls little brains ages or at their experience level. We all needed to find out for ourselves. That is how we got to the point we are today.

Hell, look at all the dumbass sh#t Werner sees on an hourly basis in the Ditch. One reason I swore that place off over 12 years ago and I stay in areas where I do not encounter the new masses doing some of the stupidist sh#t imaginable.

Don't play God Dean... it will kill ya.
Cragman

Trad climber
June Lake, California....via the Damascus Road
Aug 16, 2012 - 10:14am PT
Hahahahaha.....play God? Never.

But I will never stop offering advice when I think it's warranted in perhaps mitigating an injury or death.....

Would be irresponsible not to. That's not "playing God"....that's having compassion for a life that has so much more to offer the world than not.
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Aug 16, 2012 - 10:18am PT
I would have advised anyone with his level of experience to CLIMB the Nose, not rappel it.

And then when they had to bail? Then what? Now they're rapping a wall with a 100lb of crap, bags/ledges.

It's baffling that your knee jerk response was acting like being plucked from a sunny frontcountry chunk of granite, mid summer is in the same realm of risk as someone in avy-prone backcountry terrain, in freezing conditions without a known location.

If these guys are fined/prosecuted, then so should every Mist Trail carryout for some grandma touron who hiked up in flip flops and turned an ankle. That's probably over half of your valley "rescues" right there, escorting some fatbody with a gimpy ankle or empty belly back down a trail.
Cragman

Trad climber
June Lake, California....via the Damascus Road
Aug 16, 2012 - 10:23am PT
Now they're rapping a wall with a 100lb of crap, bags/ledges.


Sounds like 100 lbs. of well thought out, life-sustaining provisions to me.



And if you think a rescue off of El Cap is not without risk....well....
The Chief

climber
Climber from the Land Mongols under the Whites
Aug 16, 2012 - 10:37am PT
Dean,

It has taken me some 13 years since I retired to realize that I can only "give" advice and not "demand" onto them. I am not the Flight Deck Chief here in the civ world. 99.9% of most civs have no clue how to accept that type delivery. Not appropriate on my part.

Again, I have to clasp my hands in respect towards Werner and his approach to all this. He understands it far better and is an example for me to take on and accept as the proper manner in which to "give" advice to all the newbs that I may encounter.

This... just doesn't work in the civilian world.

Edit: Master Chief Sunday was more along my ways of impounding advice.
Cragman

Trad climber
June Lake, California....via the Damascus Road
Aug 16, 2012 - 10:39am PT
Oh Rick, you assume WAY too much....

I would never scream good advice.....and whether it is received or not is not my problem.

Is that a self-portrait, by the way?

:)
The Chief

climber
Climber from the Land Mongols under the Whites
Aug 16, 2012 - 10:47am PT
Nope.... This is though:



Ironically, right after this photo was taken, I went off on two individuals, big time. That was my job.
Cragman

Trad climber
June Lake, California....via the Damascus Road
Aug 16, 2012 - 10:51am PT
Nice shot, Rick...thanks for your service to our nation!
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Aug 16, 2012 - 10:57am PT
Sounds like 100 lbs. of well thought out, life-sustaining provisions to me.

And if you think a rescue off of El Cap is not without risk....well....

Yes, that is EXACTLY what I said, "without risk". Strawman much? And of course rapping with a heavy ass bag to deal with carries no risk..it's "life sustaining provisions" after all. It surely doesn't complicate things or add risk. But then we all know n00bs never bail from walls anyway, so no worries.

You get all hot and bothered that they took some unnecessary risk and your solution, "climb it instead", had a significant chance to put them in an even riskier situation.
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Aug 16, 2012 - 11:00am PT


^^^^

What's up there Billy Bob Thorton?

"Mmmm hmm, I sure do love me some mustard biscuits, mmmm hmm"
WBraun

climber
Aug 16, 2012 - 11:01am PT
You are a Wanker Cragman.

There's no doubt about it.

Your incessant spinning of this bullsh!t any way you can to make your "opinion" (that's all it really is), hold above all ......
The Chief

climber
Climber from the Land Mongols under the Whites
Aug 16, 2012 - 11:18am PT
What's up there Billy Bob Thorton?

"Mmmm hmm, I sure do love me some mustard biscuits, mmmm hmm"

G-Dman it! I just spewed my coffee all over the screen...







On the flip side there ELCAPASSMAN, one such as yourself should never forget what Karl and his Slingblade, are truly capable of. We all have a purpose in this life, regardless what that may be.....
TFPU

Sport climber
Idaho
Aug 16, 2012 - 12:31pm PT
Cmon Cragman lighten up on these kids. Whithout incidences like this you'd never be able to pontificate how bad ass you are and all compasionate like
bbbeans

Trad climber
Bozeman, MT
Aug 16, 2012 - 01:26pm PT
"Arguing on the internet is like the Special Olympics. Even if you win, you are still retarded"
micronut

Trad climber
Aug 16, 2012 - 01:32pm PT
Chris,
Glad you guys had some gusto to go after a big mission. Also glad things went safely on the rescue. Way to go YOSAR. Thumbs up. Hoping for a full write up so we can all learn something here.

Scott
Cragman

Trad climber
June Lake, California....via the Damascus Road
Aug 17, 2012 - 09:22am PT
Choosing words out of a general frustration, and inflicting them on Chris and his partner, was out of line and uncalled for....

Chris, I hope you and your partner will accept my apology.

Best,
DR
The Chief

climber
Climber from the Land Mongols under the Whites
Aug 17, 2012 - 09:25am PT
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Now that takes a bigass pair and is the Dean Man I know of.

Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Aug 17, 2012 - 10:51am PT
Group hug?
Ezra Ellis

Trad climber
WA, & NC & Idaho
Aug 17, 2012 - 10:57am PT
This thread makes me want to cry!!! Or laugh!!!! SAD!
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Aug 17, 2012 - 10:58am PT
Despite the occasional strong language or perspective...

There's never been a doubt in my mind that Cragman is a stand-up guy who cares, has a strong work ethic and high standards and principles about life at large and in general.

Sometimes it's easy to forget many of us post because we WANT to debate, because we WANT to stir up the dust to hash out some current affairs issue in or out of climbing. But that's all it is. It's hardly the rest of our lives. Out in the field, all of us (well, most of us, lol) would get along terrifically, I think.

Without a doubt, as I've expressed before, were ever I to bust ribs or hip ouch! deep in the Sierra (who knows where, perhaps an outlandish, foolish free solo AT MY AGE on Third Pillar, maybe? :) ) hearing that Cragman was in on the rescue would be reassuring news.

A good man who loves his family, country, sport. And fairness in things. In the end that's what counts.
Farouk

Boulder climber
Sylvan Grove
Aug 17, 2012 - 11:07am PT
Jesus never called anyone "asssholes"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Aug 17, 2012 - 11:57am PT
Opinions are like asssholes. Everybody's got one.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Aug 17, 2012 - 12:08pm PT
Crag,,, i remember vividly calling a pilot one dumb m*ther F8cker - as he laid there dead. Deciding to travel IFR through an incoming front in january spelled certain disaster yet they do it every year year after year. I can relate completelty to the frustrations of SAR guys and if ANY SAR guy says he hasnt said the same thing, he is lying. Even if it be under the breath.


















this just in

climber
north fork
Aug 17, 2012 - 12:36pm PT
Well played Dean.
Googlymoogly

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 19, 2012 - 09:59pm PT
I am working on the writeup. I didn't realize how long it would be. I will try for tonight but if that doesn't work expect to see it tomorrow night...
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Aug 19, 2012 - 10:01pm PT
Kudo's and balls in more way than one. Hope we are kinder to you than the big stone was lol.

Hell posting this TR might be rougher than what you went through ..

Mebbe not... even if it was a screw up most folks here respect balls and the willingness to take responsibility.

Looking forward to it! I think :)
Shack

Big Wall climber
Reno NV
Aug 20, 2012 - 12:42am PT
Hey Chief, Great picture. I'll bet you have one of these shirts...

The Chief

climber
Climber from the Land Mongols under the Whites
Aug 20, 2012 - 01:10am PT
As a matter of fact, got one just like it and several others with the same basic message.

TFPU... great and real stuff.
squishy

Mountain climber
Aug 20, 2012 - 01:31am PT
This is f*#king priceless...
Shack

Big Wall climber
Reno NV
Aug 20, 2012 - 01:43am PT
got one just like it and several others with the same basic message.
Kick Ass.

I'd also be willing to bet you weren't much of an ass kisser or you'd probably have made Master Chief. Hahaha.

The Chief

climber
Climber from the Land Mongols under the Whites
Aug 20, 2012 - 01:49am PT
Wore RED up till two months prior to my retirement at 24 yrs.
Shack

Big Wall climber
Reno NV
Aug 20, 2012 - 02:22am PT
LOL. Don't you have to be smudge free for 12 years to get GOLD?
The Chief

climber
Climber from the Land Mongols under the Whites
Aug 20, 2012 - 02:26am PT
YUP..... lots of brawling and sorts. Most of the brawling engagements were with wet nosed JO's. They got there asses taught well but I paid the price. Well worth it each and every time.

Unfortunately, these days, my hands hurt quite a bit from all them engagement impacts way back when....
Shack

Big Wall climber
Reno NV
Aug 20, 2012 - 02:30am PT
That is classic Chief. Glad you finally got the GOLD.
MisterE

Social climber
Aug 20, 2012 - 02:45am PT
What a fukking testostrone-fest.

Yawn.
Googlymoogly

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 21, 2012 - 02:06am PT
I am almost done with the writeup. Just got pics to add to it...
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Aug 21, 2012 - 02:27am PT
Yeah Chris

You came just in the nick of time! These guys were starting to feed on each other.

Post em up and wear your best asbestos

Thanks

Karl
ß Î Ø T Ç H

Boulder climber
bouldering
Aug 21, 2012 - 02:32am PT
I am almost done with the writeup.
Take your time. I won't be reading it.
Big Mike

Trad climber
BC
Aug 21, 2012 - 03:35am PT
Right on riley. Took the words right out of my mouth. Don't mind biotch he's a little crusty at first. He'll warm up to ya eventually... We are all humans who are prone to error after all.
Googlymoogly

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 21, 2012 - 04:06am PT
Here is the writeup.
It is a short version of just our time on the wall. I have a long version I wrote for friends and family who don’t live close by and wanted all the details after finding out what happened. It is 7 pages of text if you took the pictures out so unless you have a lot of time to kill read the short version posted here. The long version is here: https://www.dropbox.com/s/160erjnj2p5j0f1/El%20Cap.pdf
Here is another short version written on the NPS site but I think they left out a ton of details: http://www.nps.gov/yose/blogs/Rappellers-Rescued-off-of-El-Capitan.htm

First some pictures:
Credit: Chris Guglielmucci
Credit: Chris Guglielmucci
Credit: Chris Guglielmucci
Credit: Chris Guglielmucci

Up to this point the only problem was losing my rope. My friend started to pull it with a knot still in the end and I decided it was best to just cut it and use his spare rope instead of climbing to retrieve it. Nothing else eventful happened until Richard got stuck. We got to camp five and Richard went down first. He studied the topo for a few minutes and told me he thought the bottom set of anchors was the correct set. I understood his logic and really didn’t give it much thought knowing we had a 50/50 chance and that if we messed up we could just come up and use the other anchor.

He went down and I didn’t hear anything for a while on the radio, so I tried to communicate and didn’t get anything right away. After another 10-15 minutes I heard, “I am at the bottom of the ropes and there isn’t an anchor.” He said he could descend a little farther. After a minute his next call was, “I am hanging in mid-air and can’t go down any more.” Before I could really respond he radioed me again and this time I could hear the panic kick in, “Dude I am stuck and there are no anchors.” I asked him to come back up but didn’t hear anything. Later on I would find out that he was hanging below the great roof. I would say about 15-20 minutes went by before he finally responded again telling me he was stuck and had vomited a few times since his last call. He said he was very dehydrated and scared. The communication was all one sided though. I kept asking him questions to see how he was actually doing and see what options we had to fix the situation but of the few times he responded he just told me how sick he was and never addressing what I asked him directly. Richard had forgotten the ascenders up with me but had prussiks with him. I mentioned that I could secure each separate side of the rope using a prussik on a munter but that he would have to work with me to keep one rope locked off and let the other go to transition the weight. I mentioned that if he could do that I could come down the other rope and help him as well as give him the ascenders if he felt that was easier or possibly haul him up. I didn’t get any response until he told me once again how sick he was but this time he said he needed help. It was really obvious at this point that he had already given up and I honestly feel he had given up within a minute or two of deciding he was stuck. More tries on the radio got no answer from him.

At this point I decided we had no option but to call for help as he had asked. My phone had about 25% charge and after about 6-8 attempts to call 911 the call went through. Just as I got into the details of our situation the call disconnected. A number of other attempts failed as well. I radioed Richard and told him I was calling and asked again if he could do anything but got no answer. I ended up trying a few other numbers and it so happened that my friends number worked so I quickly told him the details and asked him to call 911 for me. I later found out he was sitting on the toilet in house when I called him which for some reason seems a bit humorous now.

Another 20 minutes went by and I got a call from the Yosemite emergency number. The YOSAR member Chris got all the details from a number of disconnected calls and explained that he was going to send someone with a spotting scope to the meadow to see where we were at and what we could do to rescue ourselves. This is what I tended to think was going to happen and had no complaints about YOSAR trying to talk to Richard. My phone had a few minutes of battery left so the ranger (I think I may have talked to more than one) got our radio channel and said he would communicate on that which luckily had a full charge.

The YOSAR member who talked to us on the radio talked to me first and got more info on the gear we had and what the situation was exactly. The rescuer talked to Richard for a while and it was obvious that he was hoping for YOSAR to come grab him. At this point he was responsive on the radio but the rescuers told him repeatedly to hold the talk switch down longer so what he said was understandable. The rescuer eventually got Richard to try prussiking up. I knew Richard knew how to use prussiks but suddenly it was like a new skill to him. At first he claimed they were slipping which didn’t make any sense but after some prodding by the rescuer he started to go up. Over the next 2 hours or so Richard radioed down to tell YOSAR how dehydrated he was more than once. The rescuer told him if he got back to the anchors there was water waiting with me(which was true). During this time I didn’t have much to do except wait. I kept the radio next to me and just sat for most of the time. I nodded off a few times while sitting up which made waking up like one of those dreams of falling, despite knowing exactly where I was. Eventually I just laid down on the ledge and put the radio by my head. After a while it was obvious Richard wasn’t going anywhere fast and had managed to ascend only 50-70 feet in over 2 hours. At this point Richard got on the radio and asked very simply “Can you guys just have a helicopter come get me?” I think he had seen the YOSAR article in Maxim magazine about a chopper rescue on El Cap. The rescuer on the radio explained that that wasn’t an option whatsoever due to the danger and told Richard he needed to keep trying to ascend. Not too long later though they communicated that a rescue was being planned and told Richard he could stop and asked if his legs were going numb and he confirmed that they were. The rescuer told Richard to now descend 20 feet where he had a place to at least place his feet. And now the waiting began. Richard said he needed to get down and they said he couldn’t expect to see a rescuer for a few hours.

A frustrating picture:
Credit: Chris Guglielmucci

My friend took it during the rescue. He kept saying he was vomiting but I guess he was able to snap a pic while unable to do anything else.

To answer a few people:
Would I do it again? I lost my rope (which will put climbing on hold for a while when combined with a fine) so at the moment I can’t, but either way I think the answer is no. When I go back at some point it will be to climb it.
Yeah I got a citation for Disorderly Conduct: Creating a hazardous situation. The officer claimed rockfall being a danger to climbers below was one reason. Which would be understandable but there were no people below us on the route. I won’t know the court date for weeks and have no idea what to expect for the fine amount.
If I had the time I would head to the valley just to talk to Rohrer but don’t have the time unfortunately.

Thats the story as I promised. Time to run and hide now huh?
crasic

climber
Aug 21, 2012 - 04:16am PT
well, at least you weren't the one to f*#k up. I bet it was pretty frustrating on your side.

Your friend basically just went into shutdown mode from fear it seems and couldn't snap out of it. Shitty situation to be in as the partner, and especially if you now get a big slap from the law.

I have one question though, why did you cut the rope instead of just climbing the bolt ladder back up to it? cutting a rope is an act of desperation done in hellish conditions when all hope is lost. You were up, early, in good weather, on route, and with a nice bolt ladder to get yourself up. Not that it contributed to what happened in the end, but it seems like bad juju,

There is a classic russian mountaineering song thats quite relevant, excuse the bluntness.



If a friend suddenly turns out to be
Not quite a friend, not quite an enemy, but just...
If you can't tell at a glance,
If he's good or bad,

Take a risk! Take him along to climb a mountain.
Don't send him off on his own;
Have him use the same support hooks that you do,
And then you'll know, who you're dealing with.

And if the guy in the mountains isn't terrific,
If he suddenly flags and goes down,
If he takes a step on ice, and wimps out
If he stumbles and shouts in panic, -

Then next to you is a stranger.
Don't yell at him, - just push him away,
They don't take such guys up into the mountains,
And in songs like this, no one sings about them.

But if he didn't whimper, didn't fuss,
Despite being sullen and ill-tempered, but went along,
And when you fell from a cliff,
He moaned in pain, but held on to you,

If he went with you, as into a battle,
He stood on the peak, tipsy,
Then you can rely on him,
As on yourself.



Clint Cummins

Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
Aug 21, 2012 - 05:36am PT
Thanks for sharing your writeup, Chris.

I was rescued once when I couldn't pull down my rappel rope and I wasn't able to ascend back to the anchor.
There was a cold rain and I was eventually shivering some.
I didn't even have prusiks, but I was coached to try my 1" webbing slings.
They worked but it was pretty slow, and I didn't want to try the free hanging part due to risk of cramping.
My partner (wisely not joining in my rappel adventure) teamed up with a YOSAR guy and they climbed 2-3 pitches to reach me.
I wouldn't have needed a rescue if I had brought my ascenders, but the original plan was for a weekend of free climbing until the rain started, so I didn't have them in the car.
Even just prusiks would have given me much better self-rescue capability, but I may not have had those in the car either....
I went too light for the task and fortunately I got rescued.

For your team situation, I believe you should have had 2 sets of ascenders, one set always with each person.
That's the way I always do walls.
They are needed if you have to fix any ropes and reascend, or if you take a leader fall into space and need to regain your high point.

I agree with the above post, too - if you don't know your partner well, you may get a bad surprise when you are relying on him and he is not up to the task.

If you had some more experience, you might have been able to do a partial rescue by hauling up one side of the rappel rope until you had enough slack to make a figure eight loop and anchor it.
Then down-jumar one of the strands and coach your partner.
But if you had enough experience to think of that and set it up,
you would already have known to have 2 sets of ascenders....
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Aug 21, 2012 - 05:51am PT
Thanks for posting, seems like it could have been pulled off. Any one of us old farts could have found ourselves in a similar situation when we exercised youthful indiscretion BITD. Kudos for taking a stab at it . Not a lot you can do when a partner hairs out. I say fight the ticket
QITNL

climber
Aug 21, 2012 - 06:13am PT
Holy moley, this is like the mother of all YOSAR reports. Figures since Werner's all into reincarnation.

You got brass balls, kid, and a wicked surname, it rolls off the tongue. Every time I've come down a steep wall the last couple of weeks, I've exclaimed, in your honor:

Great Google-a-Mucci!!!

If they bleed you for real cash, plead entrapment.
Fishy

climber
Zurich, Switzerland
Aug 21, 2012 - 08:51am PT
A funny little sidebar - I nearly choked with laughter when I read the first comment on the bottom of the NPS page (linked above) describing the rescue.

Just after the official report ends with the usual pitch about how attempting El Cap is a major undertaking requiring loads of technical rigging expertise, a lady felt the need to add the following comment prior to her upcoming trip to Yos:

"I read your blog before my visit to Yosemite. I found it sobering. It made me reconsider my shoe choices and I added trekking poles to my gear list."

Brilliant!
Cragman

Trad climber
June Lake, California....via the Damascus Road
Aug 21, 2012 - 09:00am PT
Thanks for having the guts to post your report, Chris. Glad you and your partner survived. Had it not been for SAR, that storm would have killed you.

I still stand by all my posts here....sans poor choice of a few words.

I believe Chris' account speaks to my point....it is OK to question someone's skills in depth when they ask for advice, rather than casually and flippantly saying, "Go for it!" Interceding in order to save a life is a worthy thing.

And every SAR operation, no matter that it seems like a 'milk run', puts people in harm's way.
wivanoff

Trad climber
CT
Aug 21, 2012 - 09:47am PT
Thanks for posting that, Chris. Glad you guys survived.

It'd be interesting to hear some more of what you'd do differently after you've had a chance to reflect on how things turned out.
The Chief

climber
Climber from the Land Mongols under the Whites
Aug 21, 2012 - 09:53am PT
Hopefully we learn from our mistakes and go on to do a better job next time. But first, we have to swallow our pride in order to recognize and then confess them openly.


Atta Boy Chris. Now that is character.



How does that story about old Abe Lincoln, M Jordan, Grant, T Edison go....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y6hz_s2XIAU&feature=player_embedded
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Aug 21, 2012 - 09:56am PT
I just read the 7 page report and it was much more interesting than the short version and included some good details on the SAR operation. Werner even makes a cameo appearance. I recommend it.

And good luck with the court date.
Cragman

Trad climber
June Lake, California....via the Damascus Road
Aug 21, 2012 - 09:56am PT
"Hopefully we learn from our mistakes and go on to do a better job next time. But first, we have to swallow our pride in order to recognize and then confess them openly."





Truth.
mouse from merced

Trad climber
merced, california
Aug 21, 2012 - 10:25am PT
I don't know what to think of all this. In my day, nobody particularly worried about dying. We knew we would eventually. It was up to us and us alone to keep ourselves out of harm's way. Then the "SAR sites" came into existence (I'm speaking of 1970). People got bolder, but not necessarily because of that. The SAR team was disorganized at first, but it got it together fast when national attention was focused on the Dawn Wall.

The idea that the boldness of climbers increased upon the formation of the SAR is likely not going to hold water. It is more likely that Jardine's Friends and similar tools accomplished that. The Roher (sp?) adventure was openly scorned, however. Each and every one of the guys I climbed with avoided rapping like I avoid deer mice. Deadly.

I want to say, too, that until the lights go out, a guy ought to be allowed to do silly (like rapping a wall for the cheap thrills which can escalate to expensive thrills in a heartbeat or over a couple of hours, like in this case) as long as he has the coin to shell out for a rescue. I think a lot of this is wasteful of time and money for the gov't, but at least the SAR boys and girls get paid for their trouble and risk. they are an indispensaable part of the Valley lifestyle now. People, intelligent as they are, get involved in some really stupid maneuvers and I don't blame Werner one bit for his crusty attitude. It's the stupid ones who don't plan adequately who deserve fines. I think anyone dumb enough to go do what Chris G. did (no ascenders, WTF were you thinking?) is in the latter category. Despite his partner's dimness.

Why waste the time on a rap? We mostly thought Tom R. was nutso, but at least the man was a responsible nut.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Aug 21, 2012 - 10:35am PT
way to own up.. I think id rather have a half dozen ROOT canals- than to rap the Cap.
jstan

climber
Aug 21, 2012 - 10:43am PT
Chris:
A potentially useful thing to do here would be for you to reconstruct how it was you came to decide
you wanted to rappel El Cap. Why that in place of something else? How did this first come to your
attention?
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Aug 21, 2012 - 10:57am PT
I have one question for you Chris... and I mean this verbatim....

When you going back to finish that descent and quiet your critics once and for all?

GO FOR IT!

I'm perfectly serious. Dude you got some big cajones to back them over the Big Void like that and cast down that rap route.

You're not gonna, like, let it be, are you? :-)

DO IT! If you can't count on your bud do it like Rohr did it.

DMT
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Aug 21, 2012 - 11:08am PT
Most people fail their first time on a wall and bail.

Unfortunately if you fail going down it. The option of going up the way you came is considerably more difficult than the mode you failed doing.

It's not unusual for a wall trip to fail because a partner gets the snail-eye but again not much option to reverse what you did when you are only equipped for rapping.

I remember when all I wanted to be doing was hanging out on the side of El-cap.

I seriously wanted to Rap El-Cap back then but instead I found out about the Fixed lines to Heart and usually Mammoth or above.

When I didn't have enough time or a partner I'd take off at 4 in the morning from Reno head up the fixed lines and solo a pitch or two above mammoth. Or just chill out read a book and take pics of various folks from some great vantage points. Then go back home that night.

So yeah I do understand what you did and I could see myself doing it at that time in my life.

Lessons.

Partners for big routes need to be solid. It is seriously tempting to bring someone along who isn't ready when you are so gungho that you'd be willing to solo it almost. I've made that mistake and It never worked once.

You always want to leave yourself a way out when you are learning. (because you don't know what you don't know) This is usually not a problem when attempting from a ground up normal ascent. Lotsa folks bail.

Having that spare rope would have made a difference. You could have gone down and helped your buddy .. brought him some water.. the ascenders and just being there probably would have helped his moral and got him moving.
Then again it seems to me that it's a good thing you guys didn't keep going (see my last piece of advice)

Sending water down the rope might have been an option but not sure as you may not have been able to flick the rope off the wall enough for it to go down.

This is my most important advice right here. NEVER be in a rush. When things seem to be getting messy and a mistake is made STOP! Rethink what you are doing. have a talk and change the atmosphere in your heads. The vast majority of mountaineering accidents did not begin with the thing that ended it. It began way before. For example those bee stings on your buddies legs? Maybe even that far back. Then pulling the knotted end up the rope. Then forgetting to take ascenders on his lead. It's usually a series of small mistakes.. STOP THE SERIES when it first rears it's head.!!!!! Stop relax chill for an HOUR or TWO if you have to. The first weird error is the one that should make you take notice even when it wasn't a real big deal.
WBraun

climber
Aug 21, 2012 - 11:14am PT
Sending water down the rope might have been an option


Richard said he had a 45 pound pack with him during his epic on the rappel off of Camp 5.

What was in there?

No water or just full of rocks?
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Aug 21, 2012 - 11:24am PT
This thread has lifted my spirits immeasurably.
Heretofore I thought I was the Dumbest Man on Earth. I'd say the OP bears
plenty of responsibility for letting his partner go down without the jugs
or prussiks. I won't address the issue of them both not having them.
10b4me

Ice climber
dingy room at the Happy boulders hotel
Aug 21, 2012 - 11:26am PT
Ah, the innocence of youth.
Big Mike

Trad climber
BC
Aug 21, 2012 - 11:46am PT
That sucks Chris. I know what it is like to have a partner freeze up on you... These guys have some good points tho, you got lazy with the rope and it cost you. If not you could gone and bitch slapped him and given him some water and the jugs and tell him to get his punk ass back up that rope!!!!!
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Aug 21, 2012 - 12:04pm PT
^^^^

Werner told him to do it...

Sorta like a fireman setting a blaze to drum up work...!

Since this is the Internet, I want to say I'm posting the following without an angry or condescending tone... but you guys did screw up badly

I mean, you're rapping El Cap. There's not that much to keep track of but in the first third you managed to make several major mistakes from sheer not paying attention (and how could you not pay attention with the yawning void below you)

Like pulling the rap rope with the knot still in it and then leaving it as trash. If you were confident the knot would stay, it would be safety and duty both to ascend and get it back.

and what's with being crazy dehydrated and a near dead cell only part-way into the journey?

And then managing to forget the ascenders and sending the weak guy down in a section where it was uncertain?

Simply having your wits about you would have saved all these troubles and yet after the first screw-up you didn't heighten your mindfulness and checks.

We all screw up and there for the grace of God go I. But the way the universe works, if you ignore the first warning, the second warning gets harsher until you wake up.

Sounds like your partner had no business being up there and that makes you responsible for him. Sorry it went bad but I'm cool with ya'll getting fined in this case.

(but hey, I wouldn't blame you for going back, just make sure you have your act together when you do)

Peace

Karl
Scrubber

climber
Straight outta Squampton
Aug 21, 2012 - 12:09pm PT
Thanks for sharing the story Chris. That, and having the innocent naivety to go for it, took a lot of courage. Notice how many fewer people are bashing you now? More like a fatherly "You wouldn't believe the dumb sh#t my kid did last weekend..."

We're glad you're alive to tell us about it. Hopefully your court appearance doesn't leave you too strapped to climb for a long time. Maybe you could request community service in the Valley instead of a fine? :)

Kris
this just in

climber
north fork
Aug 21, 2012 - 12:17pm PT
In some cases learning the hard way is the best, because it tends to stick with you. Thanks for posting down Chris. Either send me an email with your address or post it here and I'll send some money towards a new rope. Pretty sure others will too. Climb on! or Rap on!
yo

climber
Mudcat Spire
Aug 21, 2012 - 12:40pm PT
Since we're all passing on pearls of wall wisdom, try learning some wall communication skills next time. To wit:

No you fat f*#k I'm not f*#king calling you a f*#king chopper so you better get your sh#t square down there and jug your fat f*#king ass back up here!!!!

Edit: Oh and your mom WOOHOO!!!
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Aug 21, 2012 - 12:48pm PT
Chris,

Great job on the follow up. Took some stones to come back here and present the facts and take the blowback. Things could have gone a lot worse if it wasn't for the SAR folks, but you know that now.

Doing anything over a 3K Void is serious sh*t and requires serious thought and preparation.

Live and Learn.

Would love read a TR of you climbing the Big Stone some day.

Roger Brown

climber
Oceano, California
Aug 21, 2012 - 02:01pm PT
Chris,
Glad you guys are still with us. Re-reading your first post, you came off as having your act pretty much together. I tended to agree with Werner, ("any competent well rounded climber can do it"). I thought you should go for it. Reading your trip report, I see that maybe that was not the case. A lot of issues right from the start. Maybe it was a good thing you guys got stopped when you did, it could have been a lot worse you know.
Vegasclimber

Trad climber
Las Vegas, NV.
Aug 21, 2012 - 02:34pm PT
Thanks for the post Chris. As has already been stated, that took some balls.

A note to Reilly about his comment - you may want to re read the thread. His partner did have prussiks and was basically refusing to use them or even listen to Chris or respond on the radio. That dude was in full shutdown mode, and I can see where hanging over the lip of the Roof could be pretty damned scary for someone that's had very little or no exposure.

I have to agree with the statement that you probably shouldn't have gone up there without the proper gear and more experience. Most accidents are the end result of a series of incidents, and you're lucky this didn't get worse then it did.

Chopping the rope, not having dual ascenders, and not being 100% sure of the route and most importantly, your partner's abilities - all contributed to this.

From reading your report, I get the impression that you learned a lot from this, realized your mistakes, and will work hard to insure that you are never in that situation again. Too many people don't have the ability to take an honest look at themselves and admit that they are wrong.

I look forward to seeing a future report from you about climbing the Cap - from what I have heard it seems to be within your abilities with the right partner. And if you do decide to rap the route again to get over this incident, do yourself a favor and go with the Mad Bolter.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Aug 21, 2012 - 02:40pm PT
Personally, i would like to ask Chris what made him think he and his partner were even close to being prepared for something like this. Is it that there are now speed ascents, free routes car to car etc thus kind of trivializing El Cap? All the internet pics of guys smiling away and such?? Just curious as to the thought of "why"..I STILL shudder to think of rapping that wall..but then im a rappel hatin mofo- its an "only if i have to" affair.
phylp

Trad climber
Millbrae, CA
Aug 21, 2012 - 02:43pm PT
There is nothing on all 700+ channels on my TV that could have provided as much entertainment value as this thread.

And Chris' misadventure is only the smallest part of the drama/comedy.
As Mr. Spock was wont to say, "Fascinating".
:0 Phyl
WBraun

climber
Aug 21, 2012 - 02:49pm PT
There is no place in this whole thread I ever said "Go for it".

This was projected originally by the stupid troll Farouk along with cragman also trying to project that idea somehow in an indirect way.

Nor did I ever imply for them to outright do it.

All I ever implied was don't blow the op off with all your doom and gloom responses without even knowing the original poster at all.

These guys have to take full responsibility for their own actions.

Various individuals encouraged them instead to climb the route instead of rappelling.

If these individuals had no faith in them rappelling due to speculations on their so called "inexperience" then how the hell would these individuals encourage them to climb the route is beyond me.




le_bruce

climber
Oakland, CA
Aug 21, 2012 - 02:57pm PT
My 2 cents for ya' Chris: I'm with Big Mike, Baba, and Yo.

Here comes the crotchety and lame part of my opinion, feel free to skip it:

I disagree about your brass balls though - your writeup kind of pins everything on your partner while glazing over your own mistakes. That's a big fat red line that you don't cross in my book: In climbing, you're a partnership, not two individuals. You don't hang your partner out to dry - if you trust him enough to put your life on the line with him, you two are in it together, and you have to own the outcomes together.

Edited to shorten and rethink.
Farouk

Boulder climber
Sylvan Grove
Aug 21, 2012 - 03:02pm PT
There is no place in this whole thread I ever said "Go for it".

This was projected originally by the stupid troll Farouk along with cragman also trying to project that idea somehow in an indirect way.

Go for it dude!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Go for it dude!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Credit: Farouk

Not me Werner Dude, but this guy started it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Aug 21, 2012 - 04:00pm PT
Just got back from work and had a bit more time to think about what I would have done in this situation. Bear in mind I have a lot of experience in rescues and have had to deal with a few "frozen partners"

Buddy hung out free hanging on both strands at great roof.

I would not have called for a rescue period. The guy aint gonna die of dehydration anytime soon.. yep he's gonna suffer and I have water. Plus if he was gonna die soon I can get to him and help way before SAR can.

First I would have tied off the rappel with two french prussics. one on each side. (both are releasable under pressure if needed.)

Then I would have told him to put a kleimheist around both strands on his end and get it synched tight and load bearing.

Then I would have hauled one end of the line up with a makeshift haul. Can be done with just biners and slings.

After just enough slack was produced to rapel on other strand i would have switched the french prusik on my side to a kleimheist and hooked in below it and rapped down to my buddy. Taken his backpack and tied it into the bottom of my rap line. I then would have laughed and chilled and eaten and drank water and talked about the view and whatever till I could get him escaped from rap system and set up to ascend with the ascenders and I would have use kleimheists to go up staying next to him .

Keys here is to make it real clear no rescue till he puts that kleimheist tight around both strands. 3 reasons.

1. It's easy to do and hard to screw up. Switching from Rapell to ascend while free-hanging isn't that tough but it IS harder and easier to screw up

( he should have already had it on anyway going into unknown territory... double actually he should have been rapping single stranded merely tending the other line while on a gri-gri and none of this would be necessary at all) Remember this technique next time you rap into ANY UNKNOWN territory! or for that matter known but complicated territory.

2. It ensures he ain't going off the ends no matter what.

3. it allows me to haull his ass the couple feet or so I need for slack to descend the other side.

I woulda been an ass if necessary and left him hangin for an hour or two till he did it.

No freaking rescue unless your dying man and you ain't dying! You are hanging off the end of a rope perfectly safe.

From there I would have led every rappel single stranded on one side (alowing me to re ascend easily if I make an error) with buddy set up for repel double stranded (in the system) before I left. I would have fireman belayed him to every anchor and not let him do anything for himself.

Full on guide mode.

I had to do something similar but way more complicated when bailing from the triple cracks on the Sheild once.
BurntToast

climber
CA
Aug 21, 2012 - 04:23pm PT
Shame on you for pinning the blame on your partner.

You were the "experienced" member of the party. The "adult" so to speak.

You allowed your less "experienced" partner to rappel without a helmet, pull the rope with a knot still tied, rappel first, take a "50/50 chance" with the correct route and rappel into the void without ascenders, all apparently with a thunderstorm approaching.

YOU risked the safety of your "friend" and the SARS members, not to mention anyone below you on the CLIMBING (not rappel) route.

Your "walk of shame" was well deserved and still continues.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Aug 21, 2012 - 04:24pm PT
upon review, in an unbiased manner, the following quote which was given right off the bat was accurate in advice, and a bit of a prophecy.




Jul 24, 2012 - 06:29pm PT by Cragman

Don't do it.

You come to ST and the very first thing you post is about rappelling arguably the best free climb in the world?

Go back to the gym, and practice your rappelling there....YOSAR has enough to do.
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Aug 21, 2012 - 04:28pm PT
The second time I climbed Royal Arches BITD was with a partner with little experience. The climb went fine, but it took longer and was hotter than we expected. So he ran out of water, but I didn't know until the climb was done and we had to get down the north dome gully.

Dehydration definitely changes a person. About halfway thru the descent he started to give up, he wanted to just bivy there. We had a conversation with me saying we weren't prepared to bivy (no water, no warm clothes or space blanket, etc.) we'd be miserable for 8 hours instead of 1 but he started kind of babbling, just saying the same thing over and over with a glazed look in his eyes. I lost it and slapped him across the face like you'd see in a movie. And it WORKED! He came to and agreed with me and THANKED ME for slapping him LOL.

To bad you couldn't slap your partner!
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Aug 21, 2012 - 04:44pm PT
The second time I climbed Royal Arches BITD was with a partner with little experience. The climb went fine, but it took longer and was hotter than we expected. So he ran out of water, but I didn't know until the climb was done and we had to get down the north dome gully.

Dehydration definitely changes a person.

Ironic cause the spring at the top on the climb is safe to drink and year round, that's the way it goes i guess, what you don't know can't help you

Peace

Karl
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Aug 21, 2012 - 05:09pm PT
Actually we both drank from the spring. I was wondering why he was gulping it down like a man possessed. I still had water at the top so I just drank and left my existing water for the hike down, which I eventually gave to him. He didn't tell me until later he had run out of water on the route. If I had known I would have stayed at the spring for 15 minutes or so getting him hydrated and making sure he filled his water bottle. I think he was embarrassed that he didn't ration his water.
The Alpine

Big Wall climber
Aug 21, 2012 - 05:12pm PT
CUT THE ROPE!!!
Cosmiccragsman

Trad climber
AKA Dwain, from Apple Valley, Ca. and Vegas!
Aug 21, 2012 - 05:17pm PT
^^^^^

Pcutler

climber
Iowa
Aug 21, 2012 - 05:45pm PT
i once lowered myself down a weighted haul line by reverse leap frogging my ascenders. Not very sexy but it got me down - doing something like that could have allowed you to get to your partner and calm him down, take his pack and give him ascenders.

obviously its easy for everyone to come up with 'you should have done this' scenarios when sitting behind a desk. Being up a wall 2500 feet and hanging out in free space is enough to freak out almost anybody. When picking a partner for a wall I always figure that I won't climb with anybody who doesn't have the skills to haul my ass off if I were, for example,to break my leg in a lead fall or something. The other side of that coin is that you should probably have the skills to haul your partner off if he were, for example, to loose his marbles hanging out in open space under the great roof.

Sh#t happens, in hind-sight it was probably a dumb move, but when you're dumb you gotta be tough!
Russ Walling

Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
Aug 21, 2012 - 05:46pm PT
Holy shit! What a big day out for the lads!

Really? Hauling the guy up to get slack in the cord? Hmmmmm.....

Here is my quick take on it in the new NSFW audio rant format™™ instead of doing all that damn typing:

Think the method will work?
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Aug 21, 2012 - 05:49pm PT
Well there was a solution in this instructional video but might be a little too much like leaving your dog on the peak

then you just chongo hitchhike to the top

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxtg7raPDYo

peace

Karl
Cosmiccragsman

Trad climber
AKA Dwain, from Apple Valley, Ca. and Vegas!
Aug 21, 2012 - 05:54pm PT
LOLOL, Russ!
It works.
tornado

climber
lawrence kansas
Aug 21, 2012 - 06:07pm PT
more audio rants!!!
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Aug 21, 2012 - 06:09pm PT
Just hearing Russ's voice makes me smile and laugh

Not that his solution would have worked because there wasn't good communication with mr panic below the roof

Possible to down jumar btw on a tight rope but we already know they didn't have advanced skills

peace

Karl
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
Aug 21, 2012 - 06:09pm PT
"Audio Rant Format"...

BLA-HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA ! ! !
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Aug 21, 2012 - 06:10pm PT
Lol nicely said Russ on the audio! It's still looping and I'm still laughing! I think I got told..

Thus why I rarely post advice about walls. My way would work but there's some damn fine wall-masters on this site. I was just an average joe up there.

I do like the down jumar idea even better than mine or Russ'es.. doesn't require anything from frozen partner whatsoever till you get to him and can make sure nothing else gets messed up. It's more work but safer than expecting this guy to do anything until supervised.

Clearly as usual on a wall there are many ways to skin cat.

And apparently they did have communication the guy just would not listen and was freakin out.

Hmm Audio rants .. the wave of the future? love it.
Russ Walling

Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
Aug 21, 2012 - 06:12pm PT
I thought the dudes had radios?

In true internet fashion I only skimmed the posts... anyway... a good rant is always good even if it is wrong-ish!
cheers!
Alexey

Trad climber
San Jose, CA
Aug 21, 2012 - 06:13pm PT
i once lowered myself down a weighted haul line by reverse leap frogging my ascenders.
This is what I thinking Chris can do after locking the rope with prussics.
Thanks for report Chris. I have a 2 questions:
1. Did you and Richard before the trip discuss the possibility of been hanging in the air off route , no anchors, and if yes what was the plan?
2. Why if you consider yourself better prepared you let Richard go on 50/50 chance rapell, instead of go yourself? Or it was agreement between you and Richard to switch every rappel?


more audio rants!
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Aug 21, 2012 - 06:35pm PT
Possible to down jumar btw on a tight rope but we already know they didn't have advanced skills

i would rephrase that to say that they had no bidness being up there at all.

chris, prior to trying to rapp the nose had you rapped of any multiple rappel climbs? you know like desert towers? retreat off of a wall? anything?

Roger Brown

climber
Oceano, California
Aug 21, 2012 - 06:58pm PT
Wow,
Facelift is only a month away. It will be great meeting all you folks and being able to continue this discussion face to face around the nightly campfire.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Aug 21, 2012 - 06:58pm PT
Well the Audio Rant just took this pathetic thread to new heights. Maybe
YOSAR coulda patched Russ through on the radio. "Yo, numbnuts! Listen up!"

I'm just glad Rokjox isn't around any more to get any big ideas, not that
anybody would listen to him for more than 8 seconds.
Googlymoogly

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 21, 2012 - 06:59pm PT
Just after the official report ends with the usual pitch about how attempting El Cap is a major undertaking requiring loads of technical rigging expertise, a lady felt the need to add the following comment prior to her upcoming trip to Yos:

"I read your blog before my visit to Yosemite. I found it sobering. It made me reconsider my shoe choices and I added trekking poles to my gear list."
This is hilarious!

I think anyone dumb enough to go do what Chris G. did (no ascenders, WTF were you thinking?) is in the latter category. Despite his partner's dimness.
We had a pair of ascenders and numerous prussiks...at least read the report if you want to comment and then by all means tear me to shreds.

Chris:
A potentially useful thing to do here would be for you to reconstruct how it was you came to decide
you wanted to rappel El Cap. Why that in place of something else? How did this first come to your
attention?
You bring up a very good point. I don't remember when it first started as an idea

I have one question for you Chris... and I mean this verbatim....

When you going back to finish that descent and quiet your critics once and for all?

GO FOR IT!

I'm perfectly serious. Dude you got some big cajones to back them over the Big Void like that and cast down that rap route.

You're not gonna, like, let it be, are you? :-)

DO IT! If you can't count on your bud do it like Rohr did it.

DMT
If I were to go back YOSAR would have my head

Sending water down the rope might have been an option


Richard said he had a 45 pound pack with him during his epic on the rappel off of Camp 5.

What was in there?

No water or just full of rocks?
I did send him water down the rope actually. I think his feeling of dehydration was more nerves than anything. By that time his pack was probably considerably lighter but he should have had part of the rack, his own water, some extra clothes, and I am not sure what else in there.

We're glad you're alive to tell us about it. Hopefully your court appearance doesn't leave you too strapped to climb for a long time. Maybe you could request community service in the Valley instead of a fine? :)
That would work. I have no idea about what to expect from the judge

I disagree about your brass balls though - your writeup kind of pins everything on your partner while glazing over your own mistakes. That's a big fat red line that you don't cross in my book: In climbing, you're a partnership, not two individuals. You don't hang your partner out to dry - if you trust him enough to put your life on the line with him, you two are in it together, and you have to own the outcomes together.
I never meant to pin this on him. I made PLENTY of mistakes

Shame on you for pinning the blame on your partner.

You were the "experienced" member of the party. The "adult" so to speak.

You allowed your less "experienced" partner to rappel without a helmet, pull the rope with a knot still tied, rappel first, take a "50/50 chance" with the correct route and rappel into the void without ascenders, all apparently with a thunderstorm approaching.

YOU risked the safety of your "friend" and the SARS members, not to mention anyone below you on the CLIMBING (not rappel) route.

Your "walk of shame" was well deserved and still continues.
I never placed the blame on my partner. We were both up there and both got rescued

Thanks for report Chris. I have a 2 questions:
1. Did you and Richard before the trip discuss the possibility of been hanging in the air off route , no anchors, and if yes what was the plan?
2. Why if you consider yourself better prepared you let Richard go on 50/50 chance rapell, instead of go yourself? Or it was agreement between you and Richard to switch every rappel?
1. We did numerous times. The plan was to ascend back up the the anchors.
2. It just so happened that we switched who rappelled and we knew if he went the wrong way he could come back up the ropes. When he got to the great roof and didn't want to move or attempt to come back up.

chris, prior to trying to rapp the nose had you rapped of any multiple rappel climbs? you know like desert towers? retreat off of a wall? anything?
Yes I have
Cragman

Trad climber
June Lake, California....via the Damascus Road
Aug 21, 2012 - 07:13pm PT

Aug 21, 2012 - 11:49am PT

There is no place in this whole thread I ever said "Go for it".

This was projected originally by the stupid troll Farouk along with cragman also trying to project that idea somehow in an indirect way.

Nor did I ever imply for them to outright do it.

All I ever implied was don't blow the op off with all your doom and gloom responses without even knowing the original poster at all.

These guys have to take full responsibility for their own actions.

Various individuals encouraged them instead to climb the route instead of rappelling.

If these individuals had no faith in them rappelling due to speculations on their so called "inexperience" then how the hell would these individuals encourage them to climb the route is beyond me.

Werner Braun



Clearly, Werner, MUCH is beyond you....like reality.
Alexey

Trad climber
San Jose, CA
Aug 21, 2012 - 07:37pm PT
It seems easy to question someone for mistakes and being not prepared. I myself did some questionable and dumb things.
Once I almost been in similar situation of possible shameful rescue. Very close, but it did not happen.
There are two routes on Elephant Rock in Yosemity which merge at the top: Pink Dream 10a and Fatal Mistake .
Pink Dream is easier and start from the ground. Fatal Mistake has 3 pitches and first pitches from the ground is aid and never been freed. The plan was to climb Pink Dream 10a and than top rope 2 upper pitches of Fatal Mistake which rated in the book as 5.10 ( middle p2) and last (p3) 11a. After climbing Pink Dream from the top of this climb - I've been lowered two pitches down to beginning of p2 of Fatal Mistake. It was full stretch of 70 M rope- the only one rope we had and I was 100 feet off the ground . I did not take any gear or slings with me to be light.
I started climbing and instantly realize that it is not 5.10. Climbed probably 10-12 feet , fall and was back to the same place where I started because of rope elongation. And again, and again. 10 feet up - 10 down. I felt it is about 5.11+ which is above my TR ability. After trying 5-6 times I was really scared that it is going to be very stupid/shameful rescue of me. "Fatal Mistake" - this is a name. I was pumped , tired and felt that I have just one more chance to do my best TR performance in the life. My wife at the top can not hear me, but she realized what was going on and gave me all possible tension from above and basically rescue me. since I passed those first 12 feet the rest of the climb become a cruiser.
justthemaid

climber
Jim Henson's Basement
Aug 21, 2012 - 07:55pm PT
Russ's audio rant = PRICELESS LOL!!! I'm jiggy with that. If I couldn't get him to come up... I'd have yarded his ass up like a friggin haul sack.. even if it took all night.


Chris.. thanks for posting your epic. I admire your willingness to toss yourself into the bonfire. Yup.. plenty of things we can wax nostalgic over how-you-could-have-done-it vs what actually went down. Lessons learned. Glad everyone is OK.

PS: "Guggli-mucci" should be added to the pantheon of climber lingo IMO. ;)






Chad Taylor

Gym climber
Phoenix
Aug 21, 2012 - 08:05pm PT
I am not asking this as a criticism, but because I really don't know. My question is: Is it a bad idea to tie the ends of your rope together? That way you can't rap off the ends and additionally you can't accidentally pull your rope with the knot still tied.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Aug 21, 2012 - 08:23pm PT
maybe is just me, but from the perspective of danger/fear/probability of f*#king up.......i would way rather Climb than rappel.

cragman was spot on in his first post and prophetic. sorry chris but this a f*#k up of the first degree.

QITNL

climber
Aug 21, 2012 - 08:24pm PT
Great Google-a-mucci! Need a lawyer versed in Yosemite judicial procedure?

I'm having drinks tonight with The MONKEY of JUSTICE! We're opening a can of 1-800-whoop-ass on some bum.

+1! Audio Rantz are rad!
Srbphoto

climber
Kennewick wa
Aug 21, 2012 - 09:06pm PT
not sure this will help but starting Aug 24th REI is having Petzl Ascension Ascenders on sale for $57.99
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Aug 21, 2012 - 09:09pm PT
Russ that brought a tear to my eye.

More audio rants!!!

They're badassssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss!

DMT
stich

Trad climber
Colorado Springs, Colorado
Aug 21, 2012 - 09:14pm PT
Another vote for more Russ AudioRants™ That was the the shit!
this just in

climber
north fork
Aug 21, 2012 - 09:50pm PT
Amazing day for the supertopo, Russ that was groundbreaking. I hope to see more rants on other threads.
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Aug 21, 2012 - 09:55pm PT
Mussy! Rant on dude....
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Aug 21, 2012 - 10:08pm PT
i loved the fish rant....only it was way to f*#king productive to be a true rant!
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Aug 21, 2012 - 10:09pm PT
ST needs to add an "Audio Rant" button!
Prod

Trad climber
Aug 21, 2012 - 10:15pm PT
Cragman,

How is this considered encouragement?

Any competent well round climber can do it, rappel the Nose.

Piss easy.

Grossman used to do it for booty hunting.

Yer all wankers for trying to blow this guy off .....

If that is than this could be as well.

Don't do it.

You come to ST and the very first thing you post is about rappelling arguably the best free climb in the world?

Go back to the gym, and practice your rappelling there....YOSAR has enough to do.

Egging him on by calling him a gym climber, stay off the good stuff till you can climb it, don't burden us pros. How about a fresca little fella?

All I see you doing in this thread is claiming that you are a great guy and a Mentor, then apologizing for being a jack ass instead of a mentor, because its been a "rough time", we all have rough times, get over it. Seems to me that you care much more about your cred here than actually helping Noobs.

And what is with the hard on for WB?

My $.02


Prod.
this just in

climber
north fork
Aug 21, 2012 - 10:17pm PT
Prod that would have been so much better under the russrant format.
Cragman

Trad climber
June Lake, California....via the Damascus Road
Aug 21, 2012 - 10:50pm PT
To be honest, Prod, I couldn't care less about Werner.....

In this particular scenario, however, I believe he is the poster child of how offering flippant advice without even questioning someone's skills, can get someone killed.

If the three that went over Vernal Falls (rest their souls) last year had asked advice about whether they should climb over the fence, would we have responded without any thought....'been done before....easy....you just need a brain'.....etc.....?

I think not.

The OP was wrought with Red Flags, in my opinion. But that doesn't seem to matter around here.....it's all about the local hardmen here (or so they think) slinging slander and their bravado.....too bad.

Good advice is worth our time to give.
Roger Brown

climber
Oceano, California
Aug 21, 2012 - 11:20pm PT
Dean,
If you are an example of a Christian, I hope I never have to be one.
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
Aug 21, 2012 - 11:29pm PT
Dean's post was based on common sense, Roger.
BurntToast

climber
CA
Aug 21, 2012 - 11:34pm PT
"I never placed the blame on my partner"

Really?


1. "While I was setting up the quick links my friend started to pull the ropes." (Translate: Richard f-ed up when I wasn't watching).

2. "my friend didn’t have a helmet with him. I guess not everyone uses them but he left his at the car saying it didn’t fit (it was a unisize) and didn’t tell me until we were in the middle of the descent." (translate: Richard bought a helmet that did not fit, then left it in the car.)

3. "Now he had pulled a rope with a knot in the end. It surprised me." (see #1 above)

4. Nothing eventful happened until Richard got stuck (emphasis: RICHARD got stuck)

5. "he thought the bottom set of anchors was the correct set. I understood his logic and really didn’t give it much thought knowing we had a 50/50 chance and that if we messed up we could just come up and use the other anchor (Translate: Richard got the anchors wrong, and he should have been able to ascend after making this critical mistake)

6. "Richard had forgotten the ascenders up with me." (Translate: Richard f-ed up again by forgetting the ascenders)

7. "It was really obvious at this point that he had already given up and I honestly feel he had given up within a minute or two of deciding he was stuck." (Translate: Richard gave up right away. He was just a puss)

8. The rescuer talked to Richard for a while and it was obvious that he was hoping for YOSAR to come grab him. (see #7 above).

9. "I knew Richard knew how to use prussiks but suddenly it was like a new skill to him." (see #s 7 and 8 above)

10. "At first he claimed they were slipping which didn’t make any sense but after some prodding by the rescuer he started to go up." (Translate: Richard was making excuses for why he needed a rescue)

11. "At this point Richard got on the radio and asked very simply “Can you guys just have a helicopter come get me?” I think he had seen the YOSAR article in Maxim
magazine about a chopper rescue on El Cap." (Translate: Richard, in his ignorance, thought a helicopter rescue was relatively trivial and opted for that rather than toughing it out.)

12. "As they got to the top of camp five Chris asked me how I and Richard were doing. I told them Richard was glad they were there and that I was alright." (Translate: Richard needed the rescue, not me, I was fine)

13. "I asked Paul what code 4 meant and he said that meant Richard was fine." (Translate: Richard was fine, he really did not need a rescue.)

14. We got in his car and as he turned the key we heard, “click click click click click click click.” Somehow his battery had died. (Emphasis on HIS car and HIS battery).
Prod

Trad climber
Aug 21, 2012 - 11:39pm PT
OOPs Climb2ski deleted the following post prior to my response.

I have never seen a more spot on accurate post than Deans first reply to the OP.

Dean was absolutely correct.

Bullsh#t. He assumed the OP was a troll, and smugly said stay away. Maybe if he or any of the rest of us were Mentors he or any of the rest of us would have given him some good input, and or asked some relivent questions.

Spot on due to lack of "Mentoring"

Prod.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Aug 21, 2012 - 11:42pm PT
Yeah I did delete because I kinda find these comments unproductive even if tempting.. but now that I'm well in it I might as well support it.

The OP said something that pegged my oh sh#t meter right off the bat too. I didn't say anything at the time cause I kinda thought this was a troll to start off with myself.

The climbing partner I am going with isn't ready to attempt climbing The Nose

Dean picked up on that and while his phrasing wasn't the best he pegged the perfect advice.

I did have a running argument with Dean on this when it came to what the legal penalty should be for this and how it should be judged.

I can totally sympathize with Chris 's situation and could easily have seen myself in it.

I don't mind a fine on this but not jail time and not something financially crippling long term.. Such as the full cost of the rescue for example.

But the fact remains that Dean was correct in his initial advice. Amazingly correct actually.
this just in

climber
north fork
Aug 21, 2012 - 11:44pm PT
Perfect advice? F*#k off this is my forum go back to the gym.
Chad Taylor

Gym climber
Phoenix
Aug 21, 2012 - 11:49pm PT

I am not asking this as a criticism, but because I really don't know. My question is: Is it a bad idea to tie the ends of your rope together? That way you can't rap off the ends and additionally you can't accidentally pull your rope with the knot still tied.

Bump. Inquiring minds want to know.
Alexey

Trad climber
San Jose, CA
Aug 21, 2012 - 11:58pm PT
I ry to avoid to tie both ends together because there is more chance that rope be stuck in the cracks when you toss it down. It is easier to manage the rope and toss it down when you have two separate ends
crasic

climber
Aug 21, 2012 - 11:59pm PT
Bump. Inquiring minds want to know.

Its very easy to get it stuck and much harder to free.

But someone more experienced should be able to give a better answer
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Aug 22, 2012 - 12:01am PT
This thread is awesome. It's got it all...

High adventure from the OP.
"Compassionate" Christians.
Audio rants™
Wernerisms.
Shack's tongue up the Chief's ass.
Armchair Monday Morning SARterbacking.

But no spambots selling Hottest NIKE VERSACE GUESS jean for u good best price, though. Give it time I suppose.
this just in

climber
north fork
Aug 22, 2012 - 12:03am PT
http://m.zappos.com/nike?gclid=CJvL0I6t-rECFcKP7Qodo3oAjA
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Aug 22, 2012 - 12:04am PT
Werner has an erection?
nutjob

Gym climber
Berkeley, CA
Aug 22, 2012 - 12:06am PT
I thought the erection was in November.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Aug 22, 2012 - 12:07am PT
I like to tie independent knots at the ends of both ropes if I feel the need for it. If you tie the rope ends together, the twisting of the ropes that can happen rappelling will have no outlet so it can create a mess at the end of the rope

Peace

karl
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Aug 22, 2012 - 12:20am PT
What Karl said plus I find it easier to throw the two ropes more accurately
if done separately. Plus, if you mess up and hang one on a flake it is
easier to get one back than the two tied together.

I picked up a good habit from Uncle Fred BITD - I don't leave the ground on
anything big without three prussiks in my left pocket. The right pocket is
for the knife in case all else fails.
Chad Taylor

Gym climber
Phoenix
Aug 22, 2012 - 12:20am PT
That makes a lot of sense. Thanks Karl.
nutjob

Gym climber
Berkeley, CA
Aug 22, 2012 - 12:27am PT
Sometime a few years ago I did start carrying a knife in my chalkbag, but I'm still pretty terrible about not keeping prussiks with me, and often have found myself at belay stations with minimal or insufficient slingery. I need to fix that. One simple fix... switch my chalk bag shoelace that I tie around my waist to a 9/16" nylon tubular webbing.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Aug 22, 2012 - 12:31am PT
I pretty much always carry a few extra free biners, a couple 24 inch slings and an extra 48 on everything. A lot of stuff can be rigged with just that.
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
Aug 22, 2012 - 12:35am PT
Advanced rappelling lessons in a safe gym setting:

Wen

Trad climber
Bend, OR
Aug 22, 2012 - 12:39am PT
That rant kicked a**!

At the risk of sounding like a numb nuts, how does the partner at the belay secure both strands of the fully weighted rope?
Russ Walling

Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
Aug 22, 2012 - 12:46am PT
Wrap both strands with a runner/prussic and then I would wrap the strand I was going down on with an extra prussic. Of course if you had an extra Jumar, clamp that bad boy onto the strand and clip it into the anchor... instant fixed line. Or wrap each strand with a separate prussic.... or wrap the not-knot side with some sort of multi wrap prussic/klemheist/bachman or whatever the fancy f*#king knot is and clip it into the anchor.

I would bet if you tied the two strands together just below the rings with shoelace there will be enough friction that the lines will hold fast. Damn! This is almost long enough for another AudioRant™™™
Googlymoogly

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 22, 2012 - 12:57am PT
"I never placed the blame on my partner"

Really?


1. "While I was setting up the quick links my friend started to pull the ropes." (Translate: Richard f-ed up when I wasn't watching).

2. "my friend didn’t have a helmet with him. I guess not everyone uses them but he left his at the car saying it didn’t fit (it was a unisize) and didn’t tell me until we were in the middle of the descent." (translate: Richard bought a helmet that did not fit, then left it in the car.)

3. "Now he had pulled a rope with a knot in the end. It surprised me." (see #1 above)

4. Nothing eventful happened until Richard got stuck (emphasis: RICHARD got stuck)

5. "he thought the bottom set of anchors was the correct set. I understood his logic and really didn’t give it much thought knowing we had a 50/50 chance and that if we messed up we could just come up and use the other anchor (Translate: Richard got the anchors wrong, and he should have been able to ascend after making this critical mistake)

6. "Richard had forgotten the ascenders up with me." (Translate: Richard f-ed up again by forgetting the ascenders)

7. "It was really obvious at this point that he had already given up and I honestly feel he had given up within a minute or two of deciding he was stuck." (Translate: Richard gave up right away. He was just a puss)

8. The rescuer talked to Richard for a while and it was obvious that he was hoping for YOSAR to come grab him. (see #7 above).

9. "I knew Richard knew how to use prussiks but suddenly it was like a new skill to him." (see #s 7 and 8 above)

10. "At first he claimed they were slipping which didn’t make any sense but after some prodding by the rescuer he started to go up." (Translate: Richard was making excuses for why he needed a rescue)

11. "At this point Richard got on the radio and asked very simply “Can you guys just have a helicopter come get me?” I think he had seen the YOSAR article in Maxim
magazine about a chopper rescue on El Cap." (Translate: Richard, in his ignorance, thought a helicopter rescue was relatively trivial and opted for that rather than toughing it out.)

12. "As they got to the top of camp five Chris asked me how I and Richard were doing. I told them Richard was glad they were there and that I was alright." (Translate: Richard needed the rescue, not me, I was fine)

13. "I asked Paul what code 4 meant and he said that meant Richard was fine." (Translate: Richard was fine, he really did not need a rescue.)

14. We got in his car and as he turned the key we heard, “click click click click click click click.” Somehow his battery had died. (Emphasis on HIS car and HIS battery).

His battery? really?! If I had said it was my battery I would have been lying. That is a pathetic example. In every situation you just mentioned I was at fault for not avoiding it in the first place. That is not placing the blame on Richard
S.Leeper

Social climber
somewhere that doesnt have anything over 90'
Aug 22, 2012 - 01:02am PT
Thanks for the play by play Chris.
Bet this post hits 1k post, easy.
BurntToast

climber
CA
Aug 22, 2012 - 01:10am PT
"His battery? really?! If I had said it was my battery I would have been lying. That is a pathetic example."

I will give you that point. But it did seem to fit the pattern. You could have just said "the car" and "the battery" and been more neutral.

"In every situation you just mentioned I was at fault for not avoiding it in the first place."

You are correct to acknowledge this point, especially since you were apparently the leader of the trip.

"That is not placing the blame on Richard."

I doubt I am the only one to interpret your trip report as placing the majority of the blame on your partner. Thank you for more clearly acknowledging your fault. It would be very interesting to hear your partners point of view.

The user formerly known as stzzo

climber
Sneaking up behind you
Aug 22, 2012 - 01:10am PT
but I'm still pretty terrible about not keeping prussiks with me, and often have found myself at belay stations with minimal or insufficient slingery

3 nylon single slings will do a lot of things.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Aug 22, 2012 - 01:28am PT
Quote Here
Bullsh#t. He assumed the OP was a troll, and smugly said stay away. Maybe if he or any of the rest of us were Mentors he or any of the rest of us would have given him some good input, and or asked some relivent questions.

Spot on due to lack of "Mentoring"

Prod.

BS,

Deans advice was spot in. prophetic even.

i dont like tying knots in my rope either. sorry but if you need them then you should not be rapping off. it is faster without. but you damn well need to have your sh#t together.

i have retreated off of walls in yos, zion, wind rivers and alaska, let alone rapping of many desert spires. never tied knots and never let go of the ropes. rule #1, keep your sh#t together and these guys failed miserably.

i am not disagreeing with these that choose to tie knots, just saying i have never done so
The user formerly known as stzzo

climber
Sneaking up behind you
Aug 22, 2012 - 02:23am PT
Russ, if you put the rant on YouTube we can embed it right into the thread as a "video".

I think. Maybe.
Clint Cummins

Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
Aug 22, 2012 - 03:30am PT
Russ noted:
Really? Hauling the guy up to get slack in the cord? Hmmmmm.....

Hmm, good point.

I was trying to think of a way to fix both strands, given an uncooperative partner at the bottom, so I could jumar down one strand, and then coach him to prusik up the other one while I'm alongside.
I don't like the idea of one or two people on a strand that is secured by a prusik with just friction.
*If* the rope is through rings guaranteed too small for the knot to pass through, then that limits the rope movement in one direction. Then a tied sling around the rope below the knot on the other strand will limit movement in the other direction.
Or, if Chris had more quicklinks, those could be placed on both sides of the knot to limit travel in both directions (also handles a situation where rope is not through rings). I am not advocating carrying quicklinks for this special case, but if he already had them....

[edit:] As in my prior post, I agree with Karl - I would not expect guys without big wall experience will not be able to figure out this self rescue stuff out there in the field. Which is why the progression of doing big walls first before rapping El Cap makes sense.
I have to wonder, though, how the Royal Arches rappel route fits in with this pattern - relative beginners do it, guided by more experienced folks. But it seems like a potential place where people will get stuck sometimes and not have self-rescue experience or options. Although descending North Dome gully has been a source of accidents as well....
crasic

climber
Aug 22, 2012 - 03:39am PT
You could also haul both lines with a third rope, that they left up top for not real understandable reason.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Aug 22, 2012 - 03:39am PT
Heck, it's only guys with wall experience that have the skills (plus some sar guys and geeks) to deal creatively with stuff like this.

With a set of ascenders, some biners, and prussik cords he could have just rigged a haul and dragged him all the way back to the anchor. Particularly since after a few feet, he wouldn't be under the roof anymore and could be walking up the walk instead of dragging.

You only have to haul one line as long as there's a knot in the end of that line. You might have to rig a little mechanical advantage to get started but it would get easier quick

When I've taught people to haul in the past, I've often used myself as the haulbag for practice and I weigh 190

Peace

Karl
The user formerly known as stzzo

climber
Sneaking up behind you
Aug 22, 2012 - 03:53am PT
I don't like the idea of one or two people on a strand that is secured by a prusik with just friction.

What about 2 prusik's back-to-back?

crasic

climber
Aug 22, 2012 - 04:02am PT
Heck, it's only guys with wall experience that have the skills (plus some sar guys and geeks) to deal creatively with stuff like this.


I disagree, I have no big wall experience and marginal Grade IV experience (although my roadmap to Grade V/VI is planned out :D), but I practice stupid things like this on a weekly basis. Go to the local practice crag (luckily its a city park 5 minutes drive away) and set up weird situations to get out of, or practice a new rope technique. Obviously this doesn't beat solid vertical wall experience, but at the same time, I wouldn't feel comfortable trying a system 2500' off the deck if I didn't figure out all the stupid details and intricacies that I could on my 50 foot crag.

From what I've read/heard from Chris and others that know him my experience level on walls compares to Chris's (and our age is about the same), and I wouldn't have tried to do what he did simply because I'm aware of how little I know and how much I can f*#k up without realizing it. At the very least I would have never agreed to lead something like this.
Googlymoogly

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 22, 2012 - 04:07am PT
It would be very interesting to hear your partners point of view.
I can't speak for him but I have seen what he has put on Facebook and told other people. He has very clearly stated that if he had left his pack on the rope and ascended without it he could have gotten to the top just fine and seems to feel that would have made the difference. He has said quite a bit more that I think shows his feelings on everything but explaining that is probably risking it looking like I am blaming him.

More interesting would be some pics of his buddy dangling over the Great Roof.


got any, Chris?
I don't. From my vantage point I couldn't see him and my camera battery was dead anyways.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Aug 22, 2012 - 04:10am PT
Heck, it's only guys with wall experience that have the skills (plus some sar guys and geeks) to deal creatively with stuff like this.


I disagree, I have no big wall experience and marginal Grade IV experience (although my roadmap to Grade V/VI is planned out :D), but I practice stupid things like this on a weekly basis...

Yes, but few do that like you do and that makes you a geek. (included in my statement) I promise you most regular climbers don't have the guts or knowledge to raise a stranded climber 200 feet or go down to him on a tight rope, particularly 2000 feet off the deck.

But he had all the tools he needed (I think) to do just that. There's this chess like thinking and understanding of the gear that's developed when you climb walls, get messed up and repeatedly have to create ways to get unstuck, unscrewed and unclustered

Peace

Karl
crasic

climber
Aug 22, 2012 - 04:29am PT

Yes, but few do that like you do and that makes you a geek. (included in my statement) I promise you most regular climbers don't have the guts or knowledge to raise a stranded climber 200 feet or go down to him on a tight rope, particularly 2000 feet off the deck.

Interesting, I guess I grew up around a different mountaineering/climbing culture, with my dad and his friends being trained in the soviet school which has a more methodological approach to the game.

But its also possible I'm a geek.
The user formerly known as stzzo

climber
Sneaking up behind you
Aug 22, 2012 - 04:36am PT
Interesting, I guess I grew up around a different mountaineering/climbing culture, with my dad and his friends being trained in the soviet school which has a more methodological approach to the game.

How many of those climbers who must live near your practice area do you see out there practicing?
crasic

climber
Aug 22, 2012 - 04:40am PT
How many of those climbers who must live near your practice area do you see out there practicing?


Its hard to tell, our outdoor club does rope/anchor/climbing training out there on occasion. There are other clubs that go there as well (last week there was a caving club practicing their jugging and rappeling). There are a lot of people simply climbing, because it has accesible TR. But number of climbers that independently go there to practice rope technique? Probably not many.

edit: Also the place has been used for practice of that sort since the beginning of the last century. Cragmont park in Berkeley for those who know it.
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Aug 22, 2012 - 08:46am PT
1. Why couldn't the jumars be sent down to the guy hanging in space, by putting them on a biner and sliding them down the rope?

2. The guy hanging in space was not in danger of injury from dehyradtion, there was no medical emergency and no need for a helicopter rescue.

3. Early on in this thread someone mentioned a complication in the rap route near the great roof. I forget the details, but if I were the one rapping el Cap, I would remember.

4. I agree with previous comments that the series of small screw ups should have been a red flag that people's brains were not functioning at 100%. That happens to all of us, but you need to learn to recognize it when it happens to you.
Cragman

Trad climber
June Lake, California....via the Damascus Road
Aug 22, 2012 - 10:09am PT
Dean,

F off with ur Werner comments. You live in a fantasy world of mythical Gods and fairy tales, you have no right talking about reality. Your lunacy over driving out to Moab to save some grifter is beyond the pale of the sane. Do you ever consider how over the top you are?

My God you do some good work and have got up some moderate climbs but chill will ya.


Werner didn't encourage anyone, just made a comment based on little info.




Coz, how very interesting that you attack my faith....which quite frankly, is what caused me to comment on this thread in the first place. My faith is what gives me compassion for people....for wanting to see them live full lives.

YOU may think that driving to Moab to help someone in need is "over the top".....well, Scott, that's just the way I live my life....people matter to me. That he was a "grifter" was unknown to all.....and now that we know, we move on. That will never stop me from wanting to help another. If that is "over the top" in your book....my question to you is, "What if it was YOU I was coming to help for whatever reason some day?"

And thanks too, for putting me in my place in the climbing world...my one 5.13, hundreds of 12's, and countless 11's pale in comparison to those of you who have mastered the realm.

Look Coz, there are LOTS of you on this site that are well known, elite climbers whose words carry weight, especially with young, up and coming climbers, and Werner is clearly one of these, deservedly so. You and Werner may not see Werner's words to the OP as encouraging, but to a young person full of zeal, but perhaps with little knowledge, those words can be VERY encouraging.

This thread should not be about Werner or anything other than all of us taking a look at how we can give advice that might save a life.

I believe that to be a worthy thing.

Best to you,
DR
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Aug 22, 2012 - 10:19am PT
I don't think we'll find accord here.

In any given group of climbers there will be naysayers and dreamers, fools and scientists, conservatives and those willing to risk it all for an ideal.

Ask a group of climbers their opinion on something? Well... you get what we have here.

Its the way its supposed to be!

Chris I can't BELIEVE you aren't going back up there to finish what you started!

I mean, WTF????

DMT
Mark Hudon

Trad climber
Hood River, OR
Aug 22, 2012 - 11:12am PT
I think Chris has some real balls (but not brains) to go rap down the Nose. He certainly has some balls to come back here and post. I'll bet, once he develops his brain, he'll be a formidable big wall climber.
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Aug 22, 2012 - 11:41am PT
My faith is what gives me compassion for people

Go back to the gym
They should be prosecuted
SAR goes out after these morons...while retrieving these morons
These two are the same kind of morons we get over here
Pinheaded comment. Wise up
How pathetic of you, Rick
Perhaps you should engage the brain before going off on your mishmash postings
Clearly, Werner, MUCH is beyond you....like reality
I couldn't care less about Werner
he was a "grifter"

Feel the compassion, baby.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Aug 22, 2012 - 11:45am PT
cragman seems to be a decent guy....but he sure can dig some holes for hisself! pretty damn funny elcap.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Aug 22, 2012 - 11:48am PT
jeeez Elcap...Its OBVIOUS you dont care for Dean but none the less his first remark on this thread was pin point accurate. I respect both him and Werner for what they DO. And they are TOTALLY deserved of an opinion. Who showed more concern, those telling the UNPREPARED to just "go for it" or those that predicted the predicatable outcome? Did any try to thwart this outcome? Should the youngins have listened? Would you tell a fresh from the gym climber to just "go for " the BY? Naahhhh.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Aug 22, 2012 - 11:58am PT
1. Why couldn't the jumars be sent down to the guy hanging in space, by putting them on a biner and sliding them down the rope?

Because the rope is only hanging in space at the last few feet. It's pinched against the rock forcibly in other places

2. The guy hanging in space was not in danger of injury from dehyradtion, there was no medical emergency and no need for a helicopter rescue.

There is a medical danger however, in hanging in space in your harness for a long period.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Aug 22, 2012 - 12:07pm PT
Even in my own mental life I go back n forth, back n forth on countless issues - the more complex, the more at stake, the more it tends to happen. The discord if not bipolar nature of this thread reminds me of many of my own moods and thinking processes, regarding climbing, response to Peak Oil, response to American politics, response to world fundamentalism, response to science illiteracy, response to global warming, the extinction of the species, etc., lol!

Time to move on? time to take a OCD pill? hmmm...


......


P.S. A quarter of the reason I climb is for the height, the exposure and the rappel. It continues to amaze me how many of you climbers are afraid - afraid of heights or afraid to fall. As if rappelling is anything like what A.H. does! In WB's words and style: pussies!!

Maybe it takes more ovaries than balls to rappel great heights cool, calm and collected. Ever think of that. It's a fact, more guys than girls pussy out - or perhaps better, c*#k out - in bungee jumping. Go figure.
Vegasclimber

Trad climber
Las Vegas, NV.
Aug 22, 2012 - 12:34pm PT
I say we should take the arguing to another thread and stay on topic. Not that that's going to happen because people love to argue, but that's the interwebs for you.

A few posts back, someone mentioned that they always carry certain items with them, and I do the same. My "Bail Kit" has a leaver biner, 8 feet of 1 in. webbing, two rap rings, two quick links, one of those little Trango knives, and a Tibloc. I also keep a Petzl micro ascender with me at all times.
Due to having to bail for the first time ever on a Sedona tower last month, because of a single move, I now carry a set of pocket aiders in my backpack if I am going into "adventure" terrain.

Personally I think that Chris is taking all this pretty well. I'd second seeing him climb with Mark someday!
Mark Hudon

Trad climber
Hood River, OR
Aug 22, 2012 - 01:06pm PT
I'll mentor anyone who honestly wants it, but there are only a few people I'll actually do walls with.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Aug 22, 2012 - 01:15pm PT
I second that Mark! on a "wall" is NOT the time to get aquainted lol!


and Chris,, yes your ballz were brassish, and kuddos for that! It WILL help you once youve gained the climbing BRAIN! BUT, when you came here to seek the advice of expirienced types , if i were you, in the future- i might just listen a little more. This deal could have gone very much worse than it did. And as indicated,, know your PARTNERS well- this stuff can kill you.
phylp

Trad climber
Millbrae, CA
Aug 22, 2012 - 01:34pm PT
Can't we just blame it all on the prefrontal cortex and call it a day?
FYI: prefrontal cortex matures more slowly in males than females. Males not complete until about 26-27...



Maturation of the Prefrontal Cortex
The prefrontal cortex, the part of the frontal lobes lying just behind the forehead, is often referred to as the “CEO of the brain.” This brain region is responsible for cognitive analysis and abstract thought, and the moderation of “correct” behavior in social situations. The prefrontal cortex takes in information from all of the senses and orchestrates thoughts and actions to achieve specific goals.1,2

The prefrontal cortex is one of the last regions of the brain to reach maturation. This delay may help to explain why some adolescents act the way they do. The so-called “executive functions” of the human prefrontal cortex include:

Focusing attention
Organizing thoughts and problem solving
Foreseeing and weighing possible consequences of behavior
Considering the future and making predictions
Forming strategies and planning
Ability to balance short-term rewards with long term goals
Shifting/adjusting behavior when situations change
Impulse control and delaying gratification
Modulation of intense emotions
Inhibiting inappropriate behavior and initiating appropriate behavior
Simultaneously considering multiple streams of information when faced with complex and challenging information
This brain region gives an individual the capacity to exercise “good judgment” when presented with difficult life situations. Brain research indicating that brain development is not complete until near the age of 25, refers specifically to the development of the prefrontal cortex.3

MRI studies of the brain show that developmental processes tend to occur in the brain in a back to front pattern, explaining why the prefrontal cortex develops last. These studies have also found that teens have less white matter (myelin) in the frontal lobes of their brains when compared to adults, but this amount increases as the teen ages. With more myelin comes the growth of important brain connections, allowing for better flow of information between brain regions.4

This body of brain research data has led to the idea of “frontalization,” whereby the prefrontal cortex gradually becomes able to oversee and regulate the behavioral responses initiated by the more primitive limbic structures.

MRI research has also revealed that during adolescence, white matter increases in the corpus callosum, the bundle of nerve fibers connecting the right and left hemispheres of the brain. This allows for enhanced communication between the hemispheres and enables a full array of analytic and creative strategies to be brought to bear in responding to the complex dilemmas that may arise in a young person’s life. Once again the role of experience is critical in developing the neural connectivity that allows for conscious cognitive control of the emotions and passions of adolescence. Teens who take risks in relatively safe situations exercise the circuitry and develop the skills to “put on the brakes” in more dangerous situations.5

With an immature prefrontal cortex, even if teens understand that something is dangerous, they may still go ahead and engage in the risky behavior. Recognizing the asynchrony of development of the regions of the brain helps us to see adolescent risk-taking in a whole new light. This broadened view of risk-taking and the concept of self-regulation are explored in the next section.
Bill Mc Kirgan

Trad climber
Cedar Rapids, Iowa
Aug 22, 2012 - 01:45pm PT













what would Weld-it say?
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Aug 22, 2012 - 02:02pm PT
Prefontal cortex? My mama said Medulla Oblongata

Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Aug 22, 2012 - 02:09pm PT
Karl I must have missed the part about the ropes going over an edge. Somehow, water was sent down to the lower rapeller, so I'm not sure how that worked. We'll have to disagree over whether hanging in a harness for a few hours constitutes a medical emergency, I've spent a couple nights on el Cap hanging in mine. It is definitely uncomfortable but I think the rescue was called because the lower rapeller was in a panic and didn't know what to do.
JLP

Social climber
The internet
Aug 22, 2012 - 02:12pm PT
This is THE THREAD we've all been anticipating for decades - someone asks about rapping the Nose - actually goes out and does it - and royaly fuks it up. I can't believe what I'm reading finally actually happened.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Aug 22, 2012 - 02:25pm PT
I now carry a set of pocket aiders in my backpack if I am going into "adventure" terrain.

It's also easy to make an impromptu aider out of a cordalette in a pinch

Peace

Karl
Clint Cummins

Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
Aug 22, 2012 - 03:06pm PT
I made foot slings for my ascenders out of my end of the rope once, when we did a Lost Arrow Spire trip that was a little lighter than we planned. I didn't use a knife; just tied in short and used the extra rope as slings....

More on point, at times I've made an aider quickly from slings (I don't use a cordelette). I saw my partner make a foot sling by clipping quickdraws together in a loop when he needed to aid past a move and didn't have slings....
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Aug 22, 2012 - 03:07pm PT
i DROPPED my camera AND a lighter off the west face of Angora Pk. I miss that ol 135 brownie...


edit: i wuz a ravin LUNATIC till Al Roberts produced a back up lighter out of the haul bag.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Aug 22, 2012 - 03:16pm PT
Karl I must have missed the part about the ropes going over an edge. Somehow, water was sent down to the lower rapeller, so I'm not sure how that worked.


I must have missed the part about water being sent down. I doubt it still


We'll have to disagree over whether hanging in a harness for a few hours constitutes a medical emergency, I've spent a couple nights on el Cap hanging in mine. It is definitely uncomfortable but I think the rescue was called because the lower rapeller was in a panic and didn't know what to do.

if he wasn't rescued, it could have been much longer. The danger comes if he loses consciousness (remember he was dehydrated. See

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suspension_trauma

Peace

Karl
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Aug 22, 2012 - 03:39pm PT
I would not want to try to send my only pair of ascenders down a weighted line that was not free hanging . A spare water bottle, sure worth a shot.

It can work but its risky because generally you just yard the line up and down whenever the item sent down gets stuck. This can get the rope off the wall and pop the item off whatever protrusions, cracks, ledges it encounters. The further down the rope the more weight and the less steepness, the harder it gets to lift or flick the rope off the rock. So there is no guarantee it will work. Not only might it get stuck it might come off the rope with all the shenanigans.

It seems to me the best advice given so far was pCutler suggesting down ascending the rope (after putting kleimheists on each side to secure the rope for later ascent) Down ascending weighted lines is a pain but not too big a deal.

As Karl mentioned however this stuff just isn't familiar techniques for folks who have not done a few walls and had to work their way through the inevitable learning curve of stuck bags, disorganized anchors, Bails with pigs, pendi's and traverses with heavy crap, the endless weird scenarios that just seem to crop up on a wall before you learn to avoid or quickly work through most of them.
Walleye

climber
The Hot Kiss on the end of a Wet Fist
Aug 22, 2012 - 03:49pm PT
I guess if the Wings of Steel thread has run its course this is the next best thing!
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Aug 22, 2012 - 03:58pm PT
i wuz a ravin LUNATIC till Al Roberts produced a back up lighter out of the haul bag.

Quick, Somebody send Ron a lighter!!

;-)

peace

karl
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Aug 22, 2012 - 04:04pm PT
hehehehe I tell ya Karl,, we were in the middle tier 2 pitches up- and a LIGHTER was MANDATORY equipment i thought we were f*cked. You know,, for lighting the stoves and such,,,yyyyeahhhh thats it!
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Aug 22, 2012 - 04:05pm PT
Wings of Steel....Rappelling El Cap- now where did I put that barf bag?
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Aug 22, 2012 - 04:20pm PT
“I can't speak for him but I have seen what he has put on Facebook and told other people. He has very clearly stated that if he had left his pack on the rope and ascended without it he could have gotten to the top just fine and seems to feel that would have made the difference. He has said quite a bit more that I think shows his feelings on everything but explaining that is probably risking it looking like I am blaming him.”

All in hindsight. He could have done two things with the pack taken it off his shoulders either clip it below him between his legs or [best] tied a figure eight knot and clip it there, let it hang when started the ascent. Carrying a butt bag this way he could rest and using a shoulder harness would help as well helping in distribution of pressure on the body and you packing a parachute cord as in lowering the one set of jugs to him. Others have already posted on addition equipment. As for him not bringing a helmet should have turned back and tried another day.

Just like to know Chris was your intention to do this in one day or two?

The second is hydration, reason one your first rescuer gave you Gatorade that has sugar and salt [not the best] electrolytes but will work to get your system in balance. Wonder if your partner took one of those energy gels which if you take by themselves will make you sick hence vomiting since they need plenty of water to work. Caffeine is a good starter to get you going but when you are dehydrated will work the opposite making things worse; some of these energy drinks contain them and have a good amount. ?????

So not only having the correct gear but the correct fuel and which kinds.
murcy

Gym climber
sanfrancisco
Aug 22, 2012 - 04:37pm PT
Apologies for not following this thread super closely, but have they gone back for the dog?
The Call Of K2 Lou

climber
Squamish
Aug 22, 2012 - 04:38pm PT
^^^^^^^^^^
Ell Oh Ell!
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Aug 22, 2012 - 05:40pm PT
one of those energy gels which if you take by themselves will make you sick hence vomiting since they need plenty of water to work.

I did a climb at Taquitz 20 years ago with a partner who was into those vile energy things. I ate a Snickers and took the lead, he downed a smelly energy concoction, flailed on the follow and proceeded to puke on my rope. Yes, I am blaming my partner and I am not going back for his dog!
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Aug 22, 2012 - 05:52pm PT
i once spent a three day binge on nutin but power bars. i dont advise it. Remember Weegs story!??
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Aug 22, 2012 - 06:20pm PT
Murcy for the win!
corniss chopper

climber
breaking the speed of gravity
Aug 22, 2012 - 06:36pm PT
Petzl Tibloc Ascenders - for those routes where your 99% sure your not
going to have to jug.

 after just 12hrs of eating nothing but power bars was turning over
rocks/logs on the descent and eating ant eggs -suddenly quite delicious!
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Aug 22, 2012 - 07:00pm PT
It's also easy to make an impromptu aider out of a cordalette in a pinch

One time I made a hammer drill out of a nut tool, some tape, and an boom box.
Spider Savage

Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
Aug 22, 2012 - 08:34pm PT
Chris, I say, practice up. Take the skills you learned and go for it again next year.


Be sure to rap off something about 1,000 ft high to get started. You can do the Boneventure Hotel in Downtown LA for charity in October. PM me for details.



You got some guts to go over that edge to start with.



Make sure you have the right partner too.
Silver

Ice climber
OLPP
Aug 22, 2012 - 08:34pm PT
MURCY

YER killing me with that post. No sh#t who got the dog down?
The user formerly known as stzzo

climber
Sneaking up behind you
Aug 22, 2012 - 08:53pm PT
How many of those climbers who must live near your practice area do you see out there practicing?


Its hard to tell, our outdoor club does rope/anchor/climbing training out there on occasion. There are other clubs that go there as well (last week there was a caving club practicing their jugging and rappeling). There are a lot of people simply climbing, because it has accesible TR. But number of climbers that independently go there to practice rope technique? Probably not many.

edit: Also the place has been used for practice of that sort since the beginning of the last century. Cragmont park in Berkeley for those who know it.

I only meant to underscore Karl's point.

The last CHAOS self-rescue practice announced on the list was ages ago. And the last several I've been to were pretty much the same core group of people.

No doubt people practice there -- I do on occasion (more so at Remillard). But I think Karl's point was that the folks who practice that sort of stuff regularly are the vast minority of total outdoor climbers, to which I'd have to agree.

And kudos to those geeks who do... They save the effort of SAR folk; and a lot of them probably are on the SAR teams, too :-).

Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
Aug 22, 2012 - 09:36pm PT
So Chris,

If your partner's pack weighed 45lb's, how heavy is that chip on your shoulder ?

HAHAHAHAHA ! ! !
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Aug 22, 2012 - 10:45pm PT
Wow. I'm with JLP. Great thread. I'd pay attention to Mark Hudons posts Chris. Not sure I'd want to be the guy that got stuck TWICE on the Nose rap, so pass on Dingus's advice.

The rest of youse guys need to be nicer to each other.