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TGT

Social climber
So Cal
May 8, 2013 - 01:41pm PT
Why is it that a city with gun laws so strict that you literally can't see one in a museum

http://www.dnainfo.com/chicago/20130508/downtown/ban-on-displaying-guns-at-city-museums-should-be-lifted-ald-burke-says

has one of the highest murder rates in the country?


Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
May 8, 2013 - 06:42pm PT
Perfect timing, a rebuttal for the wacked

Pol Pot and Me (and Guns)
by Michael TomaskyMay 8, 2013 11:44 AM EDT
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/05/08/pol-pot-and-me-and-guns.html

Some interesting responses to the weekend column about how there are no absolute rights. Here's an excerpt of my favorite, all spellings as in original:


Comrad Tomasky, not sense the days of Pot Pol's "Killing Fields" of Asia, has any one socialist done more to enable the advance of World Marxist Domination. I think your efforts also may rival that of Germany's Adolf Hitler in his attempt to exterminate an entire race of people. You, comrad, have succeeded in putting a "smiley-face on the anti-liberty, anti-freedom, intimidating, underhanded, and sinister regimes of the world. You could do well for yourself in North Korea. So, Comrad Tomasky, in recognition of your efforts to enslave the masses, Marxist operatives are truly indebted to you.


Such power I have! I had no idea. Funny though, how I keep writing these things and the nation keeps not bending to my indomitable will. Here's a more sober dissent:


There is a reason for the order and priority of the amendments. In some ways however, some may view amendment #2 as more important than amendment #1. Because without amendment 2, we may have no defense of amendment 1 or for that matter #'s 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 & 10. The second amendment protects us against a corrupt government.



Finally, this one was sent, according to the writer, "an articulate, reasoned, and mostly civil response," and mostly, it was:


The Founders understood--as Mr. Tomasky does not--that government is a monster, pure force, which inevitably devolves into tyranny left unchecked. The understood that government needs not only to always have a healthy fear of the citizen's ballot, but also of the potential of having to face the bullets when citizens rise up to prevent their rights from being violated. The people in the NRA which Mr. Tomasky loathes (I'm not an NRA member, I don't hunt, hardly ever even target shoot) understand what he Mr. Tomasky does not--that the 2nd is special, and they meant what they said when they said "shall not be infringed" because without it in full force the rest of the Bill of Rights isn't worth much, and indeed, the Constitution as a whole, is just so much fancy toilet paper.


You can see here that the two people writing from planet Earth are making similar or perhaps indeed the same point. But both are just asserting. Neither offers any historical documentation for this assertion. It's just what they think, at least based on the way they wrote their notes.


What I think, obviously, is something very different. Guns are hardly our only protection against corrupt government. What about laws? We make laws. Conversely, there's a lot of corruption that neither laws nor guns will address. The worst corruption we're living with in politics is big money. What would guns do to address that? Nothing.


Anyway, I firmly believe that if you brought those guys back today and they had a little while to make sense of the modern world, they--moderate men whose handiwork demonstrates (nay, proves) that they believed in balance above almost all other values--would take a look at these insane mass shootings and say, "This is obviously insane. We sure never meant this, and clearly, government must do something about this."


But of course that's just an assertion on my part, too. I obviously can't prove that they would think this way. All this guessing about the founders' intent is hypothetical and ridiculously removed from today's reality. Things were so different that it's hardly relevant, in my view.



Also, there is nothing at all special about "shall not be infringed." There are four "shall not"s and 17 "shall"s in the Bill of Rights (most of those 17 are actually variants on "shall not" in that they proscribe a governmental behavior, i.e., shall make no law...).


This idea of American government as tyranny will never go away, but it's really, let us say, anti-empirical, and a true and grotesque insult to our fellow human beings who really do live under tyrannies. Just as right-wingers used to say to people like me go live in Moscow, I say to the fire-breathers who think they're living with tyranny and mayhem, go live in Juba. Look it up.
jghedge

climber
May 8, 2013 - 06:47pm PT
"Why is it that a city with gun laws so strict that you literally can't see one in a museum has one of the highest murder rates in the country?"


Hilariously, you just answered your own question...but you're too dumb to realize it.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
May 8, 2013 - 06:53pm PT
Gee, what a question TGT


It must be awful to be proven so wrong, over and over:

1) The state with the absolute most lenient gun laws, Alaska, is also the state with the most deaths by firearms, and by the way, those deaths are NOT "hunting accidents" relatively speaking so much as outright murder, accidental killings, and of course suicide by gun

2) the State with the very toughest gun laws, Massachusetts, is also the state with the absolute lowest rate of deaths by firearms

by the way, TGT, don't think it is only the states at both extremes that blow your "theory" to smithereens, the breakdown for every state very clearly follows the same, but lets assume your are mature enough to take a minute and actually look it up prior to proving yourself wrong, but most of us know better and won't hold our breath waiting on you.........
Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
May 8, 2013 - 06:55pm PT
Credit: TGT

Maybe you need more guns

That's what the NRA would say, spend more money, show us that you guys are tools of the NRA and their marketing campaign to get suckers to Buy more guns
monolith

climber
SF bay area
May 8, 2013 - 07:24pm PT
TGT likes to focus on Chicago, but there are 15 large cities with higher murder rates. Quite a few of these in the conservative, gun luvin, south, like Atlanta, Kansas City, Miami, Memphis, New Orleans, St Louis(twice the murder rate of Chicago).
Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
May 8, 2013 - 07:38pm PT
Yes, but all these cities have lots of the negros.

That's a big part of why conservatives feel they need to own a small arsenal.

To protect them from the angry mobs of negros.

It's also their (unspoken) explanation as to why the US gun homicide rates is off the charts compared to the rest of the developed world.

It's not all the guns that are doing the killing, it's all the negros.

jghedge

climber
May 8, 2013 - 08:00pm PT
"That's a big part of why conservatives feel they need to own a small arsenal.

To protect them from the angry mobs of negros."


And 20% of the US Army (and 10% of the officers corps) are black

Oh dear...so much for that theory about the Army not being willing to fire on wingnuts


Hahahahahaha


No wonder the gun nuts are shitting their pants right now.




jghedge

climber
May 8, 2013 - 08:13pm PT
And on a corollary note...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/08/black-voter-census_n_3240403.html


Making history, America's blacks voted at higher rates than whites in 2012, lifting Democrat Barack Obama to victory amid voter apathy, particularly among young people, new census data show. Despite increasing population, the number of white voters declined for the first time since 1996.

Blacks were the only race or ethnic group to show an increase in voter turnout in November, most notably in the Midwest and Southeastern U.S., the Census Bureau said Wednesday. The analysis, based on a sample survey of voters last year, is viewed as the best source of government data on turnout by race and ethnicity.

The Associated Press reported last week that black voter turnout surpassed whites for the first time, based on an analysis by experts of earlier data.


Hahahahaha - combine those numbers with demographic trends, and the repub party is finished.

bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
May 9, 2013 - 04:23am PT
declaration of independence: "all men are created equal...ENDOWED BY THEIR CREATOR with certain unalienable rights..."


i understand your confusion since you apparently believe government created everything and, apparently, share f's enthusiasm for a government that can take away all your rights

i never claimed god is in the constitution, only that the constitution was written to protect, FROM THE GOVERNMENT, our right to worship, speak, and bear arms
Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
May 9, 2013 - 06:50am PT
You do know that the Declaration of Independence has no legal authority in the United States?

The governing document is the Constitution.

Not a single mention of a supreme being.



Why didn't He put his name in there somewhere? Was He just being modest?


(If you look hard enough, you'll find some negros in the painting. Apparently they are Americans also!)
Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
May 9, 2013 - 09:17am PT
"all men are created equal...ENDOWED BY THEIR CREATOR with certain unalienable rights..."

My creator was my MOM, life comes from life, remember
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
May 9, 2013 - 10:58am PT
Of course
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
May 9, 2013 - 11:44am PT


http://www.addictinginfo.org/2013/05/09/bleeding-ex-girlfriend-shooting-target-at-nra-conference-promotes-violence-against-women-image/

Bleeding Ex-Girlfriend Shooting Target At NRA Conference Promotes Violence Against Women

Well they did take down the bleeding Obama target. Those wascally NRAnutz.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
May 9, 2013 - 12:04pm PT
ah, come on... that's just good clean Merkin fun.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
May 9, 2013 - 01:44pm PT
i understand your confusion since you apparently believe government created everything

you've still got it wrong, The People constituted the government

I understand that may still be too relative for you, but it is an important point... it's a consensus building process, not something absolute.

The People could decide to re-write the Constitution, too, there's nothing which prevents it from happening, no provision that says it cannot happen, and at least some of the authors of the current Constitution thought it should be re-written every couple of decades or so...

The Constitution replaces the Articles of Confederation, which was the initial effort to constitute a US Government, BY THE PEOPLE, which found that document to be inadequate to the task.

Why not re-write it again, in a modern context, and remove the confusion over what the "intent of the founders" was... their intent is in the preamble that I quoted above... and if what they wrote doesn't address the those "intents" in terms of contemporary issues then perhaps it's time to re-write it so that does.
Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
May 9, 2013 - 02:13pm PT
The Constitution replaces the Articles of Confederation, which was the initial effort to constitute a US Government, BY THE PEOPLE, which found that document to be inadequate to the task.

The most significant inadequacy of the Articles of Confederation was that the federal government could not raise money.

The Framers created the Constitution to give the federal government more power, specifically the power to tax.

And yet today we see teabaggers dressed up in colonial costumes, waving copies of the Constitution around and ranting about how federal taxes are unconstitutional.

Jebus H Bomz

climber
Peavine Basecamp
May 9, 2013 - 02:16pm PT
And yet today we see teabaggers dressed up in colonial costumes, waving copies of the Constitution around and ranting about how federal taxes are unconstitutional.

Leeches on society.
jstan

climber
May 10, 2013 - 02:07pm PT

The National Rifle Association is holding its 142nd annual meeting in downtown Houston this weekend. Here are the scheduled events:

FRIDAY, May 3
12 p.m.: Welcoming introduction video from President Obama

12:30 p.m.: Security forced to hold back squealing teenage girls in attendance as Wayne LaPierre takes stage

12:35 p.m.: Quick joke about how everyone in attendance must have passed a background check to warm up the crowd

1 p.m.: Most unconscionable words you could ever imagine met with enthusiastic cheers from thousands of people

3 p.m.: Remembrance of the victims of Sandy Hook with an extended moment of loud, scrambling excuse-making

6 p.m.: Reasoned, level-headed debate on whether the Second Amendment continues to hold relevance

SATURDAY, May 4
11:40 a.m.: Man whose face and name will someday be plastered across news websites and televisions across the nation approaches convention registration table

12 p.m.: Performance of ³God Bless America² using guns with variously pitched discharges

4 p.m.: The 46 senators who voted against last monthıs defeated gun control bill collect their winnings

5 p.m.: One-hour triage break to treat afternoon gun wounds

6:30 p.m.: Beaten, tied-up gun control advocates Joe Manchin (D-WV) and Pat Toomey (R-PA) lowered from roof into ravenous audience

8 p.m.: NRA/anti-NRA protest groups mixer

SUNDAY, May 5
 a.m.: Psychological counseling booths open to let gun enthusiasts talk out their deep-seated emotional problems

11 a.m.: Kids Korner workshop featuring popular Decorate Your Own Human Silhouette Target station

12 p.m.: Crowd treated to free T-shirts fired from fully automatic T-shirt cannon with high-capacity magazine

1 p.m.: Intensive five-hour town hall discussion on mental health reform

6:30 p.m.: Man who threatened to murder the President of the United States gives rousing speech to attendees

7 p.m.: Attendees leave convention knowing they have done their duty to protect the freedom of the American people
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
May 10, 2013 - 04:37pm PT
Always nice to see when a senior and "wizened" member of our community shows restraint and moderation rather than post hateful and deliberately inflammatory ridicule that exhibits little compassion for victims of tragedy.
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