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Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Jul 13, 2014 - 02:55pm PT
Again Bargain Hunter, your word "disproportionately" seems a bit over done.

How many cops were on duty that day across America that werent shot at?

Are we talking about some millions to one ratio?

And are you forgetting that in a post above i mention the fact that scant few folks have even noticed i was carrying that i could tell?


Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
Jul 13, 2014 - 04:17pm PT
Define what is carrying in public places? Downtown? The greater metropolitan areas? US Forest Service lands? BLM lands? Walmart?

Yes
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jul 13, 2014 - 04:30pm PT
The current models of the M4 and M16, standard issue for the US military, are not full automatic.

Yes they are!

The M-16 was modified to fire only 3 round bursts on the auto setting.

The M4-A1 will fire single, 3round burst or full auto
Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
Jul 13, 2014 - 05:17pm PT
Like I said: Currently most soldiers and marines do not have weapons that can fire full auto (although I've heard the army is transitioning infantry units from M4 to the M4A1.)

The Army transitioned from the M16 with full auto capability to the one that could only fire three round bursts in the late 1980s. I know this because my own weapon was part of this transition. The M4s in widespread deployment today also only have a three round burst.

The three round burst thing is kinda silly. I never heard of any soldier ever being trained to actually use it in combat, and I've always been curious if there were any doctrine that called for it.

Of course none of this explains whey anyone would ever need to take one of these weapons to the local Denny's.


GLillegard

Trad climber
Portland
Jul 13, 2014 - 05:39pm PT
Studies from Vietnam showed the average Infantryman would expend huge amounts of ammo in full auto panic fire, and the Army modified the rifle with the 3 round auto burst to reign in ammo waste.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jul 13, 2014 - 05:57pm PT
Three round bursts ARE full auto!

Ask ATF.

And yes it's taught.

FM3-22.9

7-7. MODIFIED AUTOMATIC AND BURST FIRE POSITION

Maximum use of available artificial support is necessary during automatic or burst fire. The rifle should be gripped more firmly and pulled into the shoulder more securely than when firing in the semiautomatic mode. This support and increased grip help offset the progressive displacement of weapon-target alignment caused by recoil. To provide maximum stability, prone and supported positions are best when firing the M16-/M4-series weapon in the automatic or burst fire mode. (If the weapon is equipped with the RAS, the use of the vertical pistol grip can further increase the control the soldier has over the weapon.) Figure 7-9 demonstrates three variations that can be used when firing in automatic or burst fire. The first modification shown involves forming a 5-inch loop with the sling at the upper sling swivel, grasping this loop with the nonfiring hand, and pulling down and to the rear while firing. The second modification involves grasping the small of the stock with the nonfiring hand and applying pressure down and to the rear while firing. The third modification shown is the modified machinegun position when a bipod is not available. Sandbags may be used to support the rifle. The nonfiring hand may be positioned on the rifle wherever it provides the most stability and flexibility. The goal is to maintain weapon stability and minimize recoil.




fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Jul 13, 2014 - 06:47pm PT
In a light infantry rifle, an X-round full auto burst makes a lot more sense than simply full auto.

Reason being when scared you'll dump that 30 rounder before you even know what you're aiming at. Your barrel will now be hotter than Hell, your gas tube glowing red, and the next mag won't be much better for the weapon from there.

Now do this for 10,15 or so mags in a row and you've done irreparable harm to the chamber throat/barrel that will cumulatively affect accuracy until that barrel can be changed out, which can't be done in the field.

Remember that actual training trigger time for the bulk of the normal ground forces is really low due to time and money.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jul 13, 2014 - 06:58pm PT
madb0lter posted
IF cops would shoot on sight this trash with teardrops tatted under their eyes, then you'd get more sympathy from me about your above-quoted statement.

But we're FAR too "civilized" for that. So, instead I wish my friends had been armed to the teeth and could therefore have had at least a fighting chance instead of just being instant victims.

Yes the problem with the American police system is that cops aren't literally Judge Dredd.



Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
Jul 13, 2014 - 07:23pm PT
And yes it's taught.

FM3-22.9

Oh, it's in a field manual!

Where's the manual that says when a soldier would actually use the three round burst?

It may exist, but it seems to be rather obscure.

jonnyrig

climber
Jul 13, 2014 - 07:37pm PT
I disagree with your evaluation of all lands not in private ownership (and some that are) as being public, sir.
A5scott

Trad climber
Chicago
Jul 13, 2014 - 09:46pm PT
Ar-15, fun plinker with some metal targets or punching holes in paper. They can handle some heat. check this vid out haha.... I like 308 better though...

jonnyrig

climber
Jul 13, 2014 - 10:38pm PT
http://www.mynews4.com/mostpopular/story/D-A-finds-officer-involved-shooting-justified/ki13lGN6EEGUXc08uOC6Aw.cspx


Clearly, the cops and the military are the only ones justified in carrying a weapon.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jul 14, 2014 - 03:04am PT
Yes the problem with the American police system is that cops aren't literally Judge Dredd.

Exactly. So, given the likes of teardrop-tat-seekers roaming around, better to not wait on a cop for help. Armed, my friends would have had at least a chance to keep some teardrops from getting tatted.
TradEddie

Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
Jul 14, 2014 - 06:21am PT
, if ALL you want to see is citizens proxying their right of self-defense, then that proxy had better be AWESOME, reliable, and very, very systematic in defense of that right!

You're putting words in my mouth, so I'll do the same: You want to give those gang-bangers all possible assistance right up to the moment they pull that trigger. You want them to have unrestricted access to all types of firearms and currently illegal mind-altering drugs, then you hope that some law-abiding citizen packing a gun is going to stop them. Most often he won't, so then you want the police to investigate that crime while gang-banging citizens are permitted to stand around legally pointing loaded guns at them, exercising a constitutional right to oppose the government by threat of force. The police will also have no available records to track the weapons, and no ability to prosecute anyone who did not actually pull the trigger. To prevent the chaos that this would cause, you believe that longer and tougher prison sentences for the tiny minority of criminals who could ever be caught will deter all the others. Lastly, the massively enlarged and militarized police and courts and prisons would ensure domestic tranquility yet not raise anyone's taxes.

I want a balanced approach, one that protects people's lives, not just their right to bear arms:

I want better funded schools in inner cities so that "these people" have an equal opportunity you say the founding fathers never intended them to have. I want anyone who wishes to carry a loaded gun in public to demonstrate proficiency. I want police to be allowed ask anyone doing so to present proof of that proficiency. I want anyone selling a gun to be required to ensure the buyer is not a criminal. I want anyone who facilitates illegal transfers of guns to be prosecuted with conspiracy to murder. I'll admit that I want many other restrictions that some would call the other end of the slippery slope, but I realize those are not politically possible at this time.

The vast majority of Americans agree with what I'm asking for, SCOTUS has stated that it would be constitutional, but the undemocratic influence of the Gun Lobby continues to successfully oppose it for their personal financial profit. If I was religious, I could accept that they will face judgement in the next life, but I'm not.

I've lived in two countries with strict gun laws and even owned guns in one of them. I believe that the freedom to walk in public without fear of a gun is a greater freedom than being able to walk in public with a gun.

Anyway, got to work, won't be here for a while.

TE





Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Jul 14, 2014 - 06:31am PT
TE,, the "vast amount of Americans" DO NOT agree with you.

In fact nearly 30 million since Sandy Hook alone have totally disagreed with you and purchased firearms and many of those now have concealed carry permits. There are now states that have NO CONCEALED permits required to carry concealed. Many have open carry as well.
And in YOUR STATE, there are more hunters and taxidermists and gun types than in most other states back East.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jul 14, 2014 - 01:09pm PT
You want to give those gang-bangers all possible assistance right up to the moment they pull that trigger. You want them to have unrestricted access to all types of firearms and currently illegal mind-altering drugs, then you hope that some law-abiding citizen packing a gun is going to stop them.

What you fail to realize is that they ALREADY do have all the access you state here. If you've actually read anything I've written, I can give your evidence after evidence that they ALREADY have "unrestricted" access to everything they could possibly want to lay their hands on! It is "restricted" in name ONLY. The PRESENT federal laws "restricting" access to military-grade weapons do not work.

YOU want another layer of the "war on..." mentality, and it DOES NOT WORK.

You want to pay for all this additional education, etc.? HOW?

We're 17-trillion in debt and climbing rapidly. Every man, woman, and child in the United States is effectively over $100,000 in debt, and that's just national debt, not even counting personal debt! HOW are you going to pay for all this additional social service?

I'll TELL you how: You STOP these stupid, ineffectual, PROVEN-worthless "war on..." things that you CANNOT in principle shut down. They you largely clear out the prisons of victimless-criminals, and you take the VAST quantity of funds freed up by disbanding useless organizations like the ATF, much of the FBI, and countless local law-enforcement agencies devoted to drugs and guns; and you start streaming THAT money into the wonderful programs you suggest.

And your inconsistencies are RIFE! You moan about mood-altering drugs like we don't already have them... and I'm not talking about the presently illegal ones. You think alcohol is anything BUT a mood-altering drug? You think it is "properly regulated" to ENSURE that it is kept out of the hands of kids? You think it is "properly regulated" to keep people from, say, drinking and driving?

WAKE UP, man! EVERYTHING a person wants to get, they can get. You cannot enforce all this crap without turning this society into a full-on police state. And even then, take a look at the USSR or China. Ever heard of the Russian Mafia?

Like how we got gangs directly as a result of prohibition, Russia got a world-class underworld as soon as they became a police state. And now it is as powerful in the lives of everyday citizens as the government itself is!

You think that's a hyperbolic statement? Then you don't know many immigrant Russians that now live here! I read about Russia a lot, and I talk to several Russians, including one who attends my church right now, and they all tell the same story. Now the Russian Mafia can actually project power globally. ALL because of yet another failed experiment in police-state thinking!

And the US has become a hotbed of gangland activity because people like YOU keep FEEDING them!

You have got the causality of what feeds them exactly reversed when you accuse me of wanting to feed them. It would be laughable except for the fact that just under half of Americans share your confusion.

The SECOND you "prohibit" something, ALL you accomplish is to drive it underground and start pouring VAST resources into fighting a "war" that YOU started and can NEVER, EVER win.

Give it up, man. This is historically-documented insanity.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jul 14, 2014 - 01:24pm PT
The SECOND you "prohibit" something, ALL you accomplish is to drive it underground and start pouring VAST resources into fighting a "war" that YOU started and can NEVER, EVER win.

Give it up, man. This is historically-documented insanity.

Then why do extremely restrictive gun laws work in so many other countries?
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jul 14, 2014 - 01:37pm PT
Then why do extremely restrictive gun laws work in so many other countries?

What, exactly, do you mean by "work?"
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Jul 14, 2014 - 01:40pm PT
The USA has NEVER BEEN-some other country. We are THE country where the people flock too illegally crossing our borders. WE are the ones to start "globalization". We are the ones that ended World Wars.

You Wanna be like England? I dont. Neither did the original Euor-settlers long ago. You all want legal access to drugs and the manner yet want to ban what you dont want ---re guns. You will accept soaring crime rates as long as they dont include murder or self defense shootings? You will see the citizenry disarmed so that they have no viable defense from anything/anyone?


Well because of that globalization, that fantasy has been long dead and buried.


Right now we import guns and ammo from: Russia, Czechoslovakia, Turkey, Israel, Spain, Italy,France, Japan, Mexico,England, Brazil, Guatemala, Slovenia, Poland, S Korea, and a few im forgetting.


357 is getting scarce right now due to another billion round order by the US Govt of .357 cal hand gun ammo. Looks like all the agencys are stepping up their hand gun power- as the Military wants to go to 40 or 10 mm hand guns now. Have no idea where the 357 rounds are going,, post office maybe? Irs?
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jul 14, 2014 - 01:57pm PT
"As an aside, homicides in England and Wales are not counted the same as in other countries. Their homicide numbers “exclude any cases which do not result in conviction, or where the person is not prosecuted on grounds of self defence or otherwise” (Report to Parliament). The problem isn’t just that it reduces the recorded homicide rate in England and Wales, but what would a similar reduction mean for the US" (http://crimepreventionresearchcenter.org/2013/12/murder-and-homicide-rates-before-and-after-gun-bans/);.

The entire article is worth reading.

"Work" is a moving target. Good luck hitting it in convincing fashion.
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