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Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Apr 17, 2013 - 07:39pm PT
Pinning your hopes for gun control, Norton, on the chance that repub party would go along with it, thereby committing political suicide, was probably never very realistic, right?

Dare I hope you're starting to see the light?


saying I support even a watered down bill because it is better than nothing is being realistic, Joe

and no Joe, your comment is flat wrong about ME seeing the light

if you are going to come after me then you better prove your sh#t, and thus far your little comment has no basis

you started this Joe, why I don't know, maybe your ass holeness is just coming out AGAIN
hillrat

Trad climber
reno, nv
Apr 17, 2013 - 07:44pm PT
Can we all stop hoarding now so I can go buy a few plinker rounds for my .22?
Buy a pressure cooker instead, 'cause those are about to go black-market. And they make artichoke pretty tasty.
Thanks.
(offended response in 3...2....)
TradEddie

Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
Apr 17, 2013 - 08:03pm PT
jhedge, I don't share your confidence that in just a few years the second amendment will be repealed, but neither do I think that repeal is necessary to achieve a significant reduction in gun violence, one that will feed on itself over time to reduce further deaths.

The supreme court has ruled that reasonable restrictions on gun ownership are constitutional; repeated challenges to the Brady Bill failed. Most of all the words are simply the right to KEEP and BEAR. There is nothing about not infringing on licensed dealers or private sellers, nothing prohibiting laws on responsible ownership or responsible sales. Nothing about bullets, the founding fathers knew guns needed ammunition, if they had wanted unrestricted sales of guns and bullets, they would have said so.

I don't have a goal of eliminating guns, the goal is significantly reducing deaths and injuries. Laws that restrict access to guns by prohibited persons and serious penalties for irresponsible ownership will reduce violence, it will take time, but it can happen sooner than repeal of the second amendment. Reduced violence will reduce demand for guns, fewer law-abiding people will feel the need to own guns, and less crazies will already have a gun at home when they do go over the edge.

Guns are not like drugs, there is a legitimate market for law-abiding people, the margin and scale is not there for a significant international black market, criminals will not smuggle guns from Fuktupistan when they can smuggle drugs. Eliminate the sources of illegal guns, and you will reduce illegal guns. Straw purchases, "private" sales, burglary.

TE


TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Apr 17, 2013 - 08:11pm PT
I don't have a goal of eliminating guns, the goal is significantly reducing deaths and injuries. Laws that restrict access to guns by prohibited persons and serious penalties for irresponsible ownership will reduce violence,

We already have plenty of those.

You are correct though, only 4% think that gun control is a serious issue.

If this bunch is representative, about 2/3rds of those think that further restrictions are the serious issue.

That puts Mr. Unhinged in the 2%

jghedge

climber
Apr 17, 2013 - 08:22pm PT
"Laws that restrict access to guns by prohibited persons and serious penalties for irresponsible ownership will reduce violence, it will take time, but it can happen sooner than repeal of the second amendment. Reduced violence will reduce demand for guns, fewer law-abiding people will feel the need to own guns, and less crazies will already have a gun at home when they do go over the edge."


Does today's vote make you think that there will ever be "laws that restrict access to guns by prohibited persons"?

You're also judging politics from the perspective of past demographics, which are soon to be rendered irrelevant. There's never been a demographic makeup like we're about to have, so judging that a the 2nd amendment isn't likely to be repealed is presumptuous - and people are buying guns in record numbers for that exact reason..


rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
Apr 17, 2013 - 08:24pm PT
Hey guys- i haven't seen anything on this thread lately about addressing the culture of violence worship that spurs a good many of these young wackos and inner city hoodlums to emulate what they have learned and witnessed since an early age. Now, if the congress would conjoin an assault (like)weapon restriction and strengthened background checks with limitation on access to violent video games and the disgusting trash on various readily available mediums it just might garner enough common sense support for passage. Just a thought....
jghedge

climber
Apr 17, 2013 - 08:28pm PT
"That puts Mr. Unhinged in the 2%"


Your imaginary numbers aside...


I think gun control is practically (as in, in practice) unconstitutional.

No gun control law isn't susceptible to being overturned on constitutional grounds - that's basically the reason we have no effective gun control in the first place. There's no way to reconcile it with the "shall not be infringed" language, and a waste of time to try.

It has to be addressed from the top down - as every other major civil rights issue has been.
jghedge

climber
Apr 17, 2013 - 08:38pm PT
"Now, if the congress would conjoin an assault (like)weapon restriction and strengthened background checks with limitation on access to violent video games and the disgusting trash on various readily available mediums it just might garner enough common sense support for passage. "

Except that, of course, the other 22 developed democracies have access to the exact same media we do, but no access to assault weapons, and virtually no gun murders. Many of those countries (UK, Japan etc) have telecom infrastructure we can only dream of, and get that "trash" delivered via fiber-optic hubs on the sidewalk in front of their homes.

Why do we have 12000 gun murders a year, and they none, if they have better access to the same media?

rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
Apr 17, 2013 - 08:44pm PT
Do they Hedge? Have you been to any of these other countries you mention and sampled their media, watched what their kids are seeing, or are you just reciting what you have heard? I'm not being confrontational so please don't launch an attack.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Apr 17, 2013 - 08:56pm PT
Sorry to interrupt, but I thought this was pretty f*#king funny:
jghedge

climber
Apr 17, 2013 - 08:57pm PT
"Have you been to any of these other countries you mention and sampled their media, watched what their kids are seeing, or are you just reciting what you have heard?"


Lived overseas for extended periods of time, yes. Our TV shows/movies/video games are just as popular overseas as here. Try Variety.com if you don't believe me.

Again, why don't they have the same problems we do, when they have better access to the same media?
rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
Apr 17, 2013 - 09:20pm PT
I guess it just ingrained in the pysche after many decades in towns like Chicago, home of Al Capone and the Valentines day massacre. Now that place is a worthy laboratory-they should try restricting access there to start with.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Apr 17, 2013 - 09:22pm PT
Snort,, chuckle,, GUFFAW!
jghedge

climber
Apr 17, 2013 - 09:34pm PT
"I guess it just ingrained in the psyche after..."


...yawn...

Your responses are like exercises in how irrelevant of a non-sequitur you can come up with...

"I call them cartoons. They would be quite humorous if the manipulation behind them, on either side, were altruistic."

Hahahaha, usually it takes a few years on the streets, pushing a shopping cart around, to get to that level of gibberish
rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
Apr 17, 2013 - 09:44pm PT
Just diving Joe in a dumpster near you.
moosedrool

climber
Stair climber, lost, far away from Poland
Apr 17, 2013 - 09:47pm PT
I like your logic jghedge.
Woo Lse

climber
Apr 18, 2013 - 01:09pm PT
Honest to God:



If you are talking about "What the founders knew and meant" in regards to the 2nd., if you have not read the salient portions of the "The Federalist" you have no idea what they knew or meant. It spells it out damn straight and clear and is nowhere as arcane as the "Two Towers" and most of you know that Tolkien fairytale, too bad you don't know that the entire Constitution is described there, and how the parts fit.

Where to put oil and where sand.

At least four chapters are devoted to military matters, you can figure out for yourself who the Militia actually is (Hint, its not the National Guard).


Those guys were every one richer, smarter and wiser than any one of you in ten thousand today. They could all speak multiple languages, knew more history than you guys will ever know and had perfected the arts of global domination and power, projecting it around the world without using a single powered vessel of ANY kind. Match That. You will get any size bedsheet you want for a sail.

They had seen one of the cruelest "cultures" in the world totally dominate the entire new world, despite its own incredible cruelty and religiously driven organization and ferocity. That culture had then turned its sights on the American Nation and was going to maintain every barbarity the English had invented, including slavery, which they had operated for two hundred years already before the birth of this nation, and on this soil. Such things as had become unlawful in England even were still being done here to us.

((Hint, black slaves did not come to the Americas, right at the first hundred fifty years or so. That was because the Irish were so plentiful. Two thirds of the entire population of Ireland was killed or enslaved over a few brief decades, and that went on for a long, long time.))

Read the Federalist, then talk about what they thought. They knew that other creatures and peoples lived on other planets by deduction, and talked about how a man might communicate. They were outrageously wealthy, brilliant and sadly experienced men. And they were writing the instruments of government for the Second Time, having produced at first a weaker, less well thought out document just a few years before.




That bill did have gun restriction on types I own, as well as millions of other peoples. Very common and useful, versatile models, with tradition and history.
frank wyman

Mountain climber
montana
Apr 18, 2013 - 01:44pm PT
I wonder why women are not more offened by the goverments gun grabbing? A white guy with boatloads of guns like me of course is. But there was no mass shootings done by women..No crazy chicks running around shooting people by the dozens. Why should they be punished? Or does the Obama administration just think a 110 pound woman has a right to fight off a 200 pound rapist with her bare hands? I thought they were for womens rights. They always say the phrase common sense, My wifes common sense is to shoot if attacked. I don't know just babbling...All this is not going to affect me one bit up here..
Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
Apr 18, 2013 - 01:53pm PT
Woo Lse,

I read the Federalist Papers and they clearly say that you are incorrect.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Apr 18, 2013 - 04:43pm PT

Big Time NRA Board Member QUITS in Protest:



WASHINGTON -- Adolphus Busch IV, heir to the Busch family brewing fortune, resigned his position on the board of the National Rifle Association on Thursday, writing in a letter to NRA President David Keene, "I fail to see how the NRA can disregard the overwhelming will of its members who see background checks as reasonable."

The resignation, first reported by KSDK, came a day after the Senate rejected a series of amendments to a gun control bill, including a bipartisan deal to expand background checks for gun sales. The NRA had vigorously opposed all those measures.

"The NRA I see today has undermined the values upon which it was established," wrote Busch, who also dropped his NRA membership. "Your current strategic focus clearly places priority on the needs of gun and ammunition manufacturers while disregarding the opinions of your 4 million individual members."

Reached for comment on Busch's resignation, NRA spokesman Andrew Arulanandam told The Huffington Post, "We disagree with his characterization, but we wish him all the best."

Busch joined the pro-gun organization in 1975 and has spoken before of his love of hunting. But the NRA has moved in a direction that Busch would not follow. "One only has to look at the makeup of the 75-member board of directors, dominated by manufacturing interests, to confirm my point. The NRA appears to have evolved into the lobby for gun and ammunition manufacturers rather than gun owners," he wrote.

A spokesman for the NRA did not immediately respond to a request for comment from The Huffington Post.

Busch told Keene, "It disturbs me greatly to see this rigid new direction of the NRA." He singled out the gun lobby's reversal of its 1999 position in favor of universal background checks, as well as its opposition to an assault weapons ban and a ban on high-capacity magazines. "I am simply unable to comprehend how assault weapons and large capacity magazines have a role in your vision," he wrote.

"Was it not the NRA position to support background checks when Mr. LaPierre himself stated in 1999 that NRA saw checks as 'reasonable'?" Busch wrote, referring to NRA CEO Wayne LaPierre's testimony at a Senate Judiciary Committee hearing in the wake of the 1999 Columbine High School shooting.

At that time, LaPierre said the NRA believed that universal background checks were a "reasonable" choice. The group even took out ads in major newspapers that read, "We believe it's reasonable to provide for instant background checks at gun shows, just like gun stores and pawn shops."

One week after that hearing, LaPierre rolled out the same argument that he would use 14 years later to attack President Barack Obama's gun safety proposals -- namely, that until the government prosecutes more background check violations, there is no point in expanding them.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/18/adolphus-busch-iv-nra_n_3112750.html
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