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TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jul 11, 2014 - 09:06pm PT
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Jul 11, 2014 - 11:53pm PT
If someone draws first it doesn't matter who gets a hand on what first. Training will prevail in nearly every situation.

How do you know the other person hasn't trained? If someone has a gun already out and pointed at you are going to try to draw from a concealed holster? Would you really attempt that or try to defuse the situation in anyway possible?

Training would take over reactions and he would be the recipient of a controlled pair to the torso or head, depending...

And what if he was an under cover officer? I actually had an undercover officer draw on me once (mistaken identity). I'm glad I didn't attempt to "put a controlled pair to the torso or head".

Partake in riskier behavior? Huh? What in the world would make someone think this. Quite the opposite. As a CCW participant, I would agree I am much more aware of my surroundings, people seen and not.

Umm, guys like Zimmerman and many more I've seen like him. I've watched youtube videos for repair and maintenance tips on my guns and the MAJORITY of them are posted by scary paramilitary wannabe yahoos. People with low intelligence where guns are their primary hobby and a big part of their identity. People like you and Madbolter are articulate and intelligent and I have no problem with you having guns, but you don't seem to realize many of the people who want to have guns should not have guns. When I go into a gun stores I'd guess about a third of the people there are an accident waiting to happen. People who go thru the trouble of getting a CCW are probably the best gun owners, but there are plenty of gun owners who are attracted to the power of guns to make up for shortcomings in themselves and don't take them seriously. I've seen guys at the ranges with a half dozen expensive guns who don't follow the basic safety rules.

Basically the way I feel about guns is that you should be able to have them, but you should pass a background check and a safety course, and if you are unwilling to do that you probably shouldn't have them.

I applaud madbolter1 for his choices and his great use and articulation of words.

Agreed. But he is in the distinct minority when it comes to those who don't want more regulations (at least the vocal ones). Even the head of the NRA comes of as a callous, aggressive, d#@&%e bag.

What article are you talking about Burly Bob? I didn't read any links posted yet, but will if it's well written and from a balanced source (tough to find).
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jul 12, 2014 - 07:55am PT
TradEddie posted
I'm still waiting for any legitimate reason for a civilian to carry a loaded military rifle in a public place (or even a single shot hunting rifle, or black powder musket for that matter). What you do on private property is your business.

Because if you don't exercise your rights then you lose them, see? That's why I'm always telling soldiers that they cannot stay at my house and screaming offensive words in public places. It's what the Founding Fathers would have wanted.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Jul 12, 2014 - 08:49am PT
Funny how many that argue against guns know damm little about them.. "Military rifles"??? Im willing to bet there wasnt ONE "military rifle" displayed in Texas by a citizen,, not ONE..

Reminds me of that female legislator who said: "Wont all the magazines be useless after they are out of bullets in them?"
Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
Jul 12, 2014 - 09:00am PT
Gee Ron, that's easy:

A military rifle is a rifle used by someone in the military.


StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Jul 12, 2014 - 09:08am PT
People carrying guns are more likely to get shot, especially in self-defense situations.

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn17922-carrying-a-gun-increases-risk-of-getting-shot-and-killed.html#.U8Fcr41dX2w

Edit -

I will concede that they say the study was just beginning and the the dynamics are not completely understood, but this is a cause for concern.
TradEddie

Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
Jul 12, 2014 - 09:20am PT
Funny how many that argue against guns know damm little about them.. "Military rifles"??? Im willing to bet there wasnt ONE "military rifle" displayed in Texas by a citizen,, not ONE..

I have never argued against guns, only for laws that make it more difficult for criminals to get guns, mandatory training for carrying guns in public places and laws that make irresponsible ownership a criminal offense. I would also make dealers subject to much more extensive requirements with regards to security and record-keeping, and much stricter criminal punishments for those that fail to meet them.

As for the "military rifles", I was simply trying to avoid the "assault rifle" quagmire. There was a picture of a man carrying an AK-47 style rifle in Target a few pages back, you can classify it however you want, just give me an answer to my question.

Lastly, I voluntarily served in the military reserves of my native country, if your definition of a military rifle is a full-auto rifle in use by the military, I've fired far more "military rifles" than you.

TE
Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
Jul 12, 2014 - 09:22am PT
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Jul 12, 2014 - 09:51am PT
Then you should know the difference eh? There were NO "military" rifles there. The rifles that were there were NO DIFFERENT than any other SEMI auto deer rifle. A 308 rifle in a classic model is the very same as a 308 in an AR STYLE. They fire one shot with each squeeze eh.


But saying "military rifles" is sooo much more "dramatic" i know..


Now of course i have already agreed that carrying rifles in an open carry situation ridiculous, but then that whole situation was a protest, albeit mis directed, but none the less a protest.

And Stahlbro- you posted some study of how open carry increases your chances of being shot. Interesting but i cant find ONE incident where such an occurrence happened. Ive been open carrying for over a year. And so far to my knowledge, there have been only TWO,, repeat TWO people even notice my small 9mm holstered on my side.

As an ex LEO i know well the open carrying issues and the fact that open carry is an immediate DETERRENT beyond concealed carrying. Current LEOs i know agree to that 100% by the way. In fact open carry is quite common in Nevada now and has been for quite some time, and this state has had ZERO occurrence of an open carry person being shot.

Im an ex Fed LEO, licensed by two different govt agencys for firearms, trained and responsible. That is why i choose to carry open style.

If someone who is looking to commit a crime sees a gun visible they are FAR more likely not to choose that person to commit said crime against. The very same reason why many concealed carriers end up having to use their guns in defense- as the perps DIDNT know they had a gun.


Bargainhunter

climber
Jul 12, 2014 - 03:12pm PT
Interesting article linked above by Stahlbro about carrying a gun increases your chances of being shot. I've often wondered if conceal carry emboldens people to "stand their ground" and escalate situations tragically, because instead of compromising in a conflict one can be inflexible and increasingly provocative knowing that one has the ultimate backup.

I disagree with Ron about open carrying is a deterrent. It could also be seen as provocative and put you at risk of being targeted. Almost all US LEO these days wear bullet proof vests, even park rangers these days, just because their uniform, authority and appearance ironically MAKE them a target. I think there is a criminal/mentally ill element out there that might want your gun and try to steal it and target you, and others that may want to push your buttons and heckle you about it and get confrontational.

Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Jul 12, 2014 - 04:39pm PT
And Yet Bargain hunter, no such happenings as to your theoretical suggestions. And feel free to point out any recent cases of LEOs just being targeted out of the blue due to a uniform or carrying a gun that werent in the act of a chase ,arrest or case working.

Tell me of any LEO in the USFS, Park Service or BLM who was just shot outright for their uniform..



I havent heard of any in any recent stretch of time. The last time i heard of USFS LEOs and employees being targeted with bullets was in 1979, and was a brief scare.

I KNOW there hasnt been any open carriers in NEV targeted because they were carrying. Me included.

In fact one of THE most civil lines for a major show i was ever in was a gun show a couple of years ago that had a massive crowd in line. It was all - pardon me sir,, no pardon me..Excuse me mamm < no excuse me sir, etc etc etc.

Criminals nearly never have attempted to rob a gun store while it was open eh,, and those that have are not around anymore.


No gun shows have ever been victim of armed robbery that i know of as well. Yet another "gun rich environment".

No shoot that i have ever attended was robbed at gun point either. Yup, EVERYONE had a gun. THE LAST place on earth an armed robber would think of robbing - if even then.






TradEddie

Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
Jul 12, 2014 - 04:48pm PT
And feel free to point out any recent cases of LEOs just being targeted out of the blue due to a uniform or carrying a gun that werent in the act of a chase ,arrest or case working.

WHAT FREAKING PLANET are you living on? It just happened in your own state, national news, two of your fellow militiamen/Bundy supporters murdered two cops sitting drinking coffee then murdered a CCW gun nut.

TE
TradEddie

Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
Jul 12, 2014 - 04:57pm PT
No gun shows have ever been victim of armed robbery that i know of as well. Yet another "gun rich environment".

How many people have been accidentally shot at gun shows over the past year, compared to say, knitting conventions held in the same venues?

Most gun shows around here prohibit loaded weapons inside, so does my local gun store. Do you allow open carry within your store, if so how will you be able to tell a robber from a customer before it's too late?

Oh,
http://www.philly.com/philly/news/Cops-Gunman-shoots-clerk-steals-6-firearms-in-Northeast-gun-shop-robbery.html


TE

Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Jul 12, 2014 - 05:28pm PT
And feel free to point out any recent cases of LEOs just being targeted out of the blue due to a uniform or carrying a gun that werent in the act of a chase ,arrest or case working

Happened in Lakewood near Seattle not that long ago. Guy walked up to four officers in a coffee shop, opened fire, and killed them all. And not long after that the same thing happened to a Seattle PD officer -- sitting in his car when a guy walked up and shot him.
Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
Jul 12, 2014 - 05:39pm PT
I'll agree that the risk/reward ratio for armed robbery at a gun show is probably not so great.

But I don't think that means we should turn every public place into a gun show.


TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jul 12, 2014 - 06:32pm PT


Doughnuts kill more cops every year (by several orders of magnitude)than guns.

Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Jul 12, 2014 - 07:52pm PT
Alright then we have a few mentioned incidents, out of all the cops and shift hours in America. A TINY fragment of a percentage is what that boils down to. I imagine that is close to the amount of people being killed by lightning strikes each year. Nor is it even in the same ball park when it comes to the amount of bullets fired by gang bangers here in the US an other citizenry being killed.

So that whole "likely" angle is rather UN-likely yes?
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Jul 12, 2014 - 08:32pm PT
Driving around is the most dangerous thing cops do. Car accidents are how most of them are killed.
johnboy

Trad climber
Can't get here from there
Jul 12, 2014 - 08:44pm PT
Yes, lightening bolts and cars are the weapons of choice for killing children in schools.

They should outlaw those kind of weapons.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Jul 12, 2014 - 09:40pm PT
And despite the fact my children are several orders of magnitude more likely to be killed by lightning + bears + snakes + disease than a mass school shooting, I still let them play outside all the time.

Just crazy I know.

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