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Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jul 9, 2014 - 01:43pm PT
It wasn't the anti-gun laws taking effect so much as it was some other laws NOT having an effect.

I was not aware of that

can you post the sources, links, where you read this?

thanks in advance
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Jul 9, 2014 - 01:49pm PT
Just look at the line's peak and think of when the riot was.


(sheesh)
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jul 9, 2014 - 01:50pm PT
Legalize drugs, end the absurd waste of money and blood. Legalize all firearms available to the local/state police to all citizens.

The government is not our friend.

Amen and amen!

Regarding the decrease in California, the differential is not at all dramatic compared to the rest of the country. In fact, I would guess from looking at the chart that the difference is even within the range of statistical error (not having seen the actual study the chart was based upon).

And deriving cause from correlation is sketchy business indeed!

Bottom line is that root causes of most gun homicides are not at all addressed by the slate of present and proposed gun laws. These are complex psychological and social issues that a rubber-stamp law cannot touch.

I'm not opposed to limited background checks (of the sort I described) because they are basically innocuous. Given my belief that these laws have no practical value, I vehemently oppose laws that make ANY inroads on law abiding citizens' gun ownership, sales, possession, or use. Innocuous laws accomplish little or nothing, but they also cause little or no harm. Fine. But laws like magazine-size limits are laughably ludicrous, as even our present lib/dem governor, Hickupgoofer, is finally admitting.
TradEddie

Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
Jul 9, 2014 - 06:21pm PT
That leads immediately to a more overarching point, which is that the feds have no business in this debate. Such things should be decided at the state and even local community level. Gun control is a states' rights issue rather than something the feds have any pressing interest in.

I was beginning to agree with much of your your position until the above point, but the problem with state regulation is that states are prohibited legally (and practically) from constructing customs booths at the state border, effectively castrating state level regulations. A federal requirement for universal background checks is the only way to close the current floodgates of guns flowing into criminal hands (however or wherever administered is of no realistic concern to me).

As for open carry of loaded, unlimited magazine capacity, full-auto firearms, can you provide any possible legitimate purpose for such activity in a public place? The only people who would benefit from such "freedom" are terrorists and homicidal maniacs. Freedom is not just about lack of government oppression, effective gun control laws will make us all more free to enjoy public spaces without the irrational fear of being shot going to the ATM.

TE










madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jul 9, 2014 - 07:40pm PT
A federal requirement for universal background checks is the only way to close the current floodgates of guns flowing into criminal hands (however or wherever administered is of no realistic concern to me).

Well, I guess where we are going to forever come apart is that I simply don't believe that universal, federally-anchored background checks will serve the function you think they will. So, I stick with this being a states' rights issue.

As for open carry of loaded, unlimited magazine capacity, full-auto firearms, can you provide any possible legitimate purpose for such activity in a public place?

That "legitimate purpose" is going to vary state by state and even community by community. In many/most communities, the average citizen just isn't going to have to defend against armed thugs carrying full-auto munitions. In those communities, full-auto just might be illegal. In other communities, perhaps full-auto might appropriately be legal. The point is that the feds can't make such determinations accurately, so they are not fit to pass such sweeping laws.

Now, I want to mitigate even what I just said above, and I'm sure that this will yet again push us further apart.

The right of self defense was most poignant in the founders' minds with regard to the right of defense against one's government itself. I know, I know, most of you think it's just a ridiculous proposition that we might need to rise up against our government... or that it would even be practically possible. I would respond that the last 20 years or so have made the proposition seem far more likely to me than I would have imagined. And regarding the practical possibility, I've argued elsewhere that one does not have to "win" in order to prevail.

The point of the foregoing paragraph is that citizens must have available to them the sorts of arms they would need to at least engage in infantry-level resistance. We'll leave the tanks, etc. for the National Guard. But full-auto small-arms munitions? Sure.

The only people who would benefit from such "freedom" are terrorists and homicidal maniacs.

Not true. See above. Whether you agree or not, at least I've made the case that citizens would not need to be either "terrorists" or "homicidal maniacs" to have a legitimate use for all sorts of small-arms munitions.

Freedom is not just about lack of government oppression, effective gun control laws will make us all more free to enjoy public spaces without the irrational fear of being shot going to the ATM.

Well, it's hard to know what's going to count as an "irrational fear" in the mind of any particular person. I've been packing for weeks now all over Colorado, and I've gotten three verbal responses so far, all the same: "Thank you for supporting the second amendment." I've gotten repeated smiles, thumbs up, and so forth. No shock, horror, or even the slightest negative reaction. It all depends on what a community is accustomed to.

And I thus far disagree that "effective gun control laws" is a phrase that is anything but a contradiction in terms. Are we really back to the "war on..." arguments? So far I just don't see it.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Jul 9, 2014 - 08:10pm PT
If the sight of a properly holstered pistol on someone who appears to be behaving normally causes you to "fear for your life"....

Well then.... it's you that needs some counseling...

Now as for the clowns with rifles slung in the front in Chili's... yeah, that's just plain silly and everyone I know agrees with that.
A5scott

Trad climber
Chicago
Jul 9, 2014 - 08:51pm PT
Those silly clowns in front of Chilies don't want to openly carry rifles. (I'm NOT one of them). I don't live near texas, but they are protesting that they can't openly carry pistols. They can conceal carry pistols, but open carry pistols is illegal. Long gun open carry is legal, and they believe that to be silly. thus the protest. Nobody is open carrying machine guns. I think it's life in prison when convicted of using a machine gun in a crime. that, plus they are sort of expensive. They just want to strap a pistol on their hip and be on their way. If you are afraid they are up to no good, just google fbi to compare crime stats between CCW holders and non-ccw holders.

scott
scrubbing bubbles

Social climber
Uranus
Jul 9, 2014 - 08:59pm PT
open carry of handguns, like maybe some guy with a greasy .44 special on his belt, all shiny and silver, is a great way to intimidate ordinary citizens


you get into a fender bender, and Fatso with the .44 comes charging up to you


maybe you tend to see things his way, eh?


same with every other routine social interaction; pure intimidation


a Nation of obnoxious, anti-social ass-holes
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Jul 9, 2014 - 09:05pm PT
I understand the situation in TX but still think rifles slung in the front, and thus at the ready in populated retail outlets is just a really bad idea. Sling 'em on their backs. IMO it would be the same as me carrying a pistol at the low ready position while taking my daughter to McDonalds...

I OC all the time and am around people who do so as well.

The idea that protesting like that will result in anything favorable towards better pistol OC legislation is unlikely.
7SacredPools

Trad climber
Guelph, Ontario, Canada
Jul 9, 2014 - 09:27pm PT
Excellent post Scrubbing Bubbles.
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Jul 9, 2014 - 09:33pm PT
A lot of countries have a higher murder rate than we enjoy here in the U.S. In fact, most countries suffer a higher per-capita murder rate. Even Greenland has a higher per-capita murder rate than the U.S. But not one of those countries has a higher rate of gun ownership. None are even close. Less murders, yet more guns. THAT'S American Exceptionalism right there.

Chaz, your post is a great example of statistical silliness. The latest data I've seen (for 2012) does indeed show that 109 countries have a higher murder rate than the US. So, when you say "a lot of countries have a higher murder rate than we enjoy here in the U.S.", you're quite correct.

But there are a couple of things your comment ignores.

First, while it's true that 109 countries have a higher murder rate than the US, there are 110 countries with a lower rate.

And second, if you look at the list of countries with a higher rate, you won't find any that you really want to live in. Seriously. In terms of murder rate, the US is in the company of what our beloved Ron Anderson would call third-world shytholes. The countries in which a sane person would want to live -- you know, first-world countries with thriving economies -- all have lower rates.

Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
Maestro, Ecosystem Ministry, Fatcrackistan
Jul 10, 2014 - 06:43am PT
Chaz, your post is a great example of statistical silliness.

That's chaz for you!

DMT
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jul 10, 2014 - 07:03am PT
a Nation of obnoxious, anti-social ass-holes

That's a pretty accurate summation there.

And madbolter, if you think everyone's cool with you carrying a weapon around, you're living in denial, my friend.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
Maestro, Ecosystem Ministry, Fatcrackistan
Jul 10, 2014 - 07:04am PT
I can't understand the fear.

DMT
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Jul 10, 2014 - 07:10am PT
Now thats funny as hell,, climbers whining about anti social as#@&%es ROFLMAO!!


Pot calling kettle,, come in kettle..
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
Maestro, Ecosystem Ministry, Fatcrackistan
Jul 10, 2014 - 07:38am PT
Interesting to see that the threat of mutually assured destruction is considered a higher moral than say something like mutual cooperation to ban nuclear weaponry.

It shouldn't be any wonder that folks who grew up under the shadow of the Bomb would feel on-the-hip display of weaponry is a higher "'moral.'" (those are irony quotes)

DMT
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jul 10, 2014 - 07:44am PT
I grew up in the shadow of the bomb. We had two drills at school. One was for tornadoes, for that one we went into the hallways. The other was for the Bomb.


Despite that, I still think MAD is mad.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Jul 10, 2014 - 07:58am PT
hmmm you mean all the nukes have been destroyed these days? Funny that- since N Korea just a day or two ago shot off more missiles into the sea.

Do you REALLY THINK a nuclear detonation was a long ago twice thing ONLY? That ONE country would pull it off but never again?

This is a wet dream for the muslim brotherhood to have a few of those..





edit: @ Ghost,, which country just lowered the age for WORKERS to 10???
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jul 10, 2014 - 08:53am PT
edit: @ Ghost,, which country just lowered the age for WORKERS to 10???

Georgia? That was one of Gingrich's ideas, wasn't it?
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Jul 10, 2014 - 08:56am PT
"newt" even close Gary..
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