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StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Jul 7, 2014 - 09:33pm PT
I hope armed people understand they are far more likely to die from other things than some attack from an unknown assailant

Table B. Percentage of total deaths, death rates, and age-adjusted death rates for 2010, percentage change in age-adjusted death
rates in 2010 from 2009, and ratio of age-adjusted death rates by race and sex for the 15 leading causes of death for the total
population in 2010: United States
[Crude death rates on an annual basis per 100,000 population; age-adjusted rates per 100,000 U.S. standard population. Rates are based on populations enumerated as of
April 1 for 2010 and estimated as of July 1 for 2009 using revised intercensal estimates. The asterisks preceding the cause-of-death codes indicate that they are not part of
the International Classification of Diseases, Tenth Revision (ICD10), Second Edition; see Technical Notes. Race categories are consistent with the 1977 Office of
Management and Budget (OMB) standards]
Age-adjusted death rate
Percent
2010 change Ratio
Percent crude 2009 Male Black2
of total death to to to
Rank1 Cause of death (based on ICD10, 2004) Number deaths rate 2010 2010 female white
. . . All causes .................................. 2,468,435 100.0 799.5 747.0 0.3 1.4 1.2
1 Diseases of heart ................(I00I09,I1 1,I13,I20I51) 597,689 24.2 193.6 179.1 2.0 1.6 1.3
2 Malignant neoplasms ..................... (C00C97) 574,743 23.3 186.2 172.8 0.4 1.4 1.2
3 Chronic lower respiratory diseases ............. (J40J47) 138,080 5.6 44.7 42.2 1.2 1.3 0.7
4 Cerebrovascular diseases ....................(I60I69) 129,476 5.2 41.9 39.1 1.3 1.0 1.4
5 Accidents (unintentional injuries) ......... (V01X59,Y85Y86) 120,859 4.9 39.1 38.0 1.3 2.0 0.8
6 Alzheimers disease .........................(G30) 83,494 3.4 27.0 25.1 3.7 0.8 0.8
7 Diabetes mellitus ........................(E10E14) 69,071 2.8 22.4 20.8 1.0 1.4 2.0
8 Nephritis, nephrotic syndrome and nephrosis .......(N00N07,
N17N19,N25N27) 50,476 2.0 16.3 15.3 1.3 1.4 2.1
9 Influenza and pneumonia ................... (J09J18) 50,097 2.0 16.2 15.1 8.5 1.4 1.1
10 Intentional self-harm (suicide) ........ (*U03,X60X84,Y87.0) 38,364 1.6 12.4 12.1 2.5 4.0 0.4
11 Septicemia ...........................(A40A41) 34,812 1.4 11.3 10.6 3.6 1.2 2.0
12 Chronic liver disease and cirrhosis .......... (K70,K73K74) 31,903 1.3 10.3 9.4 3.3 2.1 0.7
13 Essential hypertension and hypertensive renal
disease ............................ (I10,I12,I15) 26,634 1.1 8.6 8.0 2.6 1.0 2.4
14 Parkinsons disease ..................... (G20G21) 22,032 0.9 7.1 6.8 4.6 2.3 0.4
15 Pneumonitis due to solids and liquids ............... (J69) 17,011 0.7 5.5 5.1 4.1 1.9 0.9
. . . All other causes ........................ (residual) 483,694 19.6 156.7 . . . . . . . . . . . .
...Category not applicable. 1
Rank based on number of deaths; see Technical Notes. 2
Multiple-race data were reported by 37 states and the District of Columbia in 2010. The multiple-race data for these reporting areas were bridged to the single-race categories of the 1977 OMB
standards for comparability with other reporting areas; see Technical Notes.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jul 7, 2014 - 11:03pm PT
I hope armed people understand they are far more likely to die from other things than some attack from an unknown assailant

I hope unarmed people understand that such a statistical list contains countless items that may not even apply to them.

Apparently death by HIV is very low on the list (doesn't appear in the section you quoted). Well, since there are SO many other things that are "more likely" to get you, by all means start practicing as much unsafe sex as you can.

Etc., etc.

Fallacy of accident (technical name, not applying to accidental death).

Statistics are SO fun.

How about we go back to the really pressing question, which is: What proposed gun laws would keep guns out of the hands of criminal?

Until somebody can produce some clear causal chains on that one, proposed gun laws are prima facie ineffective, and there is no reason to have yet more laws just to have more laws.
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Jul 7, 2014 - 11:11pm PT
How about we go back to the really pressing question, which is: What proposed gun laws would keep guns out of the hands of criminal?

If you have to ask, you'll never accept the answers.

I'm a gun owner. I have a shooting range on my property. But the NRA guns nuts are beyond reason. Their arguments as seen on this thread are a bunch of tripe designed to make them feel better about needing a gun to feel safe.

Shooting is fun once in a while but I'd much rather pick up my guitar and play.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jul 8, 2014 - 12:04am PT
If you have to ask, you'll never accept the answers.

Huh?

Are you serious?

I guess what you are saying is something like, "If you could just 'see' the magnificent 'truth' that is there for all (reasonable) people to just intuitively apprehend, you would not need to ask."

For myself, I do need to ask because not one single argument has ever been produced that I've seen (so help me) to explain HOW, say, background checks are going to keep guns out of the hands of criminals. Do you really think they are walking into gun store and going through any process?

Seriously, explain! Don't lamely punt.

And your psycho-babbling is just that. I guess you didn't read the passage from Jefferson's book I quoted above. By your lights, Jefferson was just another "NRA gun nut..." blah, blah, blah.
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Jul 8, 2014 - 01:49am PT
I guess what you are saying is something like, "If you could just 'see' the magnificent 'truth' that is there for all (reasonable) people to just intuitively apprehend, you would not need to ask."

For myself, I do need to ask because not one single argument has ever been produced that I've seen (so help me) to explain HOW, say, background checks are going to keep guns out of the hands of criminals. Do you really think they are walking into gun store and going through any process?

No, what I'm saying is you are just asking for example laws so you can shoot them down with a variety of fallacies. I think you don't really want to know what could work, you want to reinforce your beliefs.

Here how's this, requiring background checks at gun shows will keep criminals from easily buying guns at guns shows. To which you would argue but criminals could still purchase them through straw sales. Which is true, But making guns more difficult for criminals to buy will mean less guns in the hands of criminals. At the very least by simply making them more expensive on the black market. Of course you can't eliminate all the guns that are out there (nor would I want to) but we can and should take the reasonable steps to help reduce the numbers of the thousands of new guns being produced out of the hands of criminals.

You can't stop the hardcore criminals from getting a gun. But many shootings do happen or are made worse by relatively easy access to guns. The harder you make it for criminals and unstable people to get guns the less guns they will have and the less gun violence our country will be victim to. The idea that more guns means greater safety is completely ridiculous on its face to all except gun nuts.

I wonder if there is anyone out there that agrees with the NRA that doesn't own guns?
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Jul 8, 2014 - 01:55am PT
The Fet,

It's already illegal for a felon to even attend a gun show, access to firearms and all. Five years in the Federal Joint, if caught.

What's another extra added law going to do that can't be done right now with the laws already on the books?
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jul 8, 2014 - 02:10am PT
I think you don't really want to know what could work, you want to reinforce your beliefs.

Now you're questioning my intellectual honesty, and at that point you lose all credibility in my mind. It's the lowest form of punt: "Well, you WON'T see the truth, so I won't be bothered to try to express it."

But then, you do go on to try....

Here how's this, requiring background checks at gun shows will keep criminals from easily buying guns at guns shows. To which you would argue but criminals could still purchase them through straw sales. Which is true, But making guns more difficult for criminals to buy will mean less guns in the hands of criminals.

And the rest of your claims make this same point in various ways, summed up this way....

The harder you make it for criminals and unstable people to get guns the less guns they will have and the less gun violence our country will be victim to.

And THIS is the point that seems so obvious to you but that is never argued for and is not obvious to people like me!

How did that line of logic work out for prohibition? How did that line of logic work out for the endless war on drugs?

I think that the feds have made it pretty darn hard to get hold of drugs, but has that reduced the incidence of drug use? Has it reduced the number of people in jail, who as soon as they get out go right back to the drugs? Has it accomplished ANYTHING of substance?

What people like you don't seem to ever tumble to is that when the feds declare a "war" on something, ALL that means is that the something will become more expensive but will still be ENTIRELY accessible to ANYBODY that wants the something. And the government will just spend more and more of MY money on yet another exercise in futility!

So, now you want a mini-war on guns. Make the more expensive and "harder to get." Seems obvious to YOU, but it is far, FAR from obvious to anybody who really assesses the government's effectiveness in its other efforts to stop or make inaccessible anything that people actually want.

Guns are NO different, and you even admit that criminals will get them. What you have not even begun to demonstrate is that fewer criminals will get fewer of them. And every "war on..." that the government has engaged in has proved that such "wars" can't even slow the flow!

So don't accuse me of being intellectually dishonest, when in fact I have very considered reasons for thinking that the whole prospect is yet another exercise in futility. And unless you can indicate why somebody should believe that the government is even CAPABLE of virtually shutting down the flow of guns into criminal and nut-job hands, the need of self-defense against gun-toting bad guys remains real and alive.

The idea that more guns means greater safety is completely ridiculous on its face to all except gun nuts.

Nobody is saying "more guns" in general terms. What people like me are saying is: More guns in the hands of law-abiding and well-trained citizens, with a public presence of same. That is not only not ridiculous on its face, there is a long history of belief in this deterrent that traces all the way back to the founders (again, see my quoted passage above).

I don't belong to the NRA and probably never will. I'm no "NRA gun nut." Nor do I think that "guns make me safe." NOTHING makes a person safe! But having a gun does provide a measured response to a certain sort of risk, and it's a relatively easy way to address that risk. Why wouldn't I do so?

You can try to paint all "NRA gun nuts" with the same brush and thereby oversimplify what is typically a fairly layered set of perspectives about the efficacy of governmental "wars" on anything. But I for one have exactly zero confidence that ANY slate of gun laws is going to have any significant effect on the criminal element. It's not "nutty" to be cynical about our government, particularly on subjects like this one!
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Peavine Basecamp
Jul 8, 2014 - 03:32am PT
When guns are scrutinized, the gun crowd points to auto accidents, cancer deaths, etc. as statistically far more dangerous. When those statistics also bear out the irrelevancy of guns to real safety, they ignore the stats. Convenient truths, I suppose.

I'm not against responsible gun ownership, but, c'mon, just admit you like your toys and fantasy Bronson vigilante BS and take up some paint ball already!

Ending the war against drugs would probably do much more to take guns out of the hands of criminals than Citizen Dumbshit believing he's part of the posse armed with his glock and a side order of paranoia.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Jul 8, 2014 - 06:40am PT
Put your "odds" up against hundreds of millions of handguns owned and tens of millions carried, and I'd say that the "odds" are looking pretty good that you're gonna get hit by lightening many times before you're gonna shoot yourself or be shot by your own gun.
That's a most curious claim.
I can only assume you'd had a few too many whiskies.

How many people shoot themselves in the US in a year?
We can start with about 4000 successful suicides. I'm not going to look it up for the umpteenth time, so find out yourself and correct me. That doesn't count the hundreds or more like two guys last week who made the news for shooting themselves in the groin and stomach while driving. Go figure.
And while you're at it, how many struck by lightning in the US? I'd truly like to know.
I personally know 4 people who've killed themselves with guns, two in the last 8 years. I personally know zero, none, zilch ever struck by lightning including climbers who get out in the stuff more than the average citizen.

Being struck by lightning is truly chance and bad luck, sometimes mixed with a little idiocy. Shooting yourself is you own friggin' stupidity and there's more than enough of that to go around.

And about Chicago's murder rate?
Yes, it's horrendous. How many of those guns are originally bought in Chicago? A small number, it's illegal. They're mostly brought in from outside the city. Or from the gun shops in NRA friendly Indiana and Missouri. Or stolen from other gun owners.

80 something people shot in Chicago last weekend and 14 or more dead. Let's assume 1/2 of it was gang shootings. Don't you suppose a large number of the shot gangbangers were also carrying? Did them a lot of good eh?
Again, be my guest and look it up. There are plenty of us anti-gun liberal pinko socialist do-gooders keeping track and posting on the internet.
7SacredPools

Trad climber
Guelph, Ontario, Canada
Jul 8, 2014 - 07:16am PT
No doubt carrying a gun around makes some people feel safe.
For others, it is a power trip, and for a few it is something beyond even that.

Taking firearm safety courses at a gun club to acquire my FAC (Firearm Aquisition Permit) I witnessed the expression on the faces of some of the guys when handling a big gun. It can be best described as "orgasmic." To each his own I guess.

Back to my point...while carrying a gun around might make someone feel safe personally, it has the opposite effect on society. Of course we are talking America here, land of the individual not necessarily concerned with the common good.

The vast majority of the world gets along well enough that it doesn't feel the need to carry a gun and looks upon those that do as dangerous freaks.
It would behoove people that promote such anti-social behavior to get out and travel a bit. But perhaps not having the ability to shoot a potential aggressor in the face is just too terrifying.

GR
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jul 8, 2014 - 07:18am PT
And THIS is the point that seems so obvious to you but that is never argued for and is not obvious to people like me!

How did that line of logic work out for prohibition? How did that line of logic work out for the endless war on drugs?

When a crazy person bursts into a school room and starts injecting overdoses of heroin into all the kids, I'll accept that argument.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Jul 8, 2014 - 07:32am PT
Yet another fine compact carry piece would be the MP Shield




Credit: Ron Anderson


Has the trigger safety as well as the standard safety, light slide action and feeds all ammo. Decently priced compact 9mm by Smith & Wesson..






Now for those of you talking about odds, why do you climb with a rope on a route thats well within your abilities? Or that youve done before? Just in case is why. Just in case you fall, slip or a hold breaks eh. The odds say that hasnt and wont happen, but you do prepare for that anyhow.



As for the "school" remarks,, we have for ever protected our money at banks with armed guards, and our politicians have a host of armed security. But when it came to your kids, ohwww nooooo must have a gun fee zone. And hows that been working? One upon a time we "kids" brought guns to school in our gun racks every day during the hunting season as we planned on an after class hunt. But that was also back in times where more families were intact and gun training was given to children at early ages.. Much like climbers who teach their youngins about SAFE techniques for climbing, so must responsible gun owning parents. And instead of having them doped up on all manner of pills for newly invented "issues", a more active role by said parents should be the course.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jul 8, 2014 - 07:59am PT
Ron, seriously, I'd hate to live in your world.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Jul 8, 2014 - 08:19am PT
Well Gary during my LEO stint i had death threats issued to me from a perp or two..I dont consider those funny. Just a while back i dissed a well known gang here by stopping one of their members from beating a little dog of a neighbor of mine. Youve heard of the Nortreno gang im sure. They are a murderous gang the likes of MS 13. Now that action i engaged in has most definitely increased my "odds" as it were. I also helped remove the tagging that was starting to happen in my area and stopped a party of litter bugs on the river near me that also had gang tatoos making them pick up the trash they had just deposited on MY clean river bank. And i would do all of this again. The actions of myself and a few others in the moundhouse area have indeed had their effect and crime has lessened around here. I feel good about that so im not sure why you would hate to have my life.

I went from carrying concealed to open carrying for the exact same reasons, and when asked by an NHP member why i chose to carry open, i asked him what a better deterrent to crime was,, open or concealed, and he just smiled and said "touche".

A while back after the IHOP shooting here in carson, the female commander of the local Natl guard gave an order to her troops that they werent allowed to be in UNIFORM to go to lunch any more. Yes,, our TROOPS here for the security of the state were told NOT to bring their weapons with them to lunch but rather to hide and blend with citizenry rather that possibly be targeted in a random shooting again. So in that instance they were ordered to do NOTHING and to just be another target of opportunity rather than taking means to defend them selves and others. I guess if we ever need to have them defend us, we would be in deep doodoo.



In the end, im a responsible and trained gun owner and carrier. I choose that as it is my right to be so. I will not be a victim of some random violence without protecting myself or others, and i WANT those who have come here for nefarious purpose to see that plainly. And in my little world and hood, it has been working very well. And i also ENJOY shooting. I ENJOY the guns, the fine craftsmanship of wood to metal and all the complexities of ballistics. I ENJOY my muzzle loaders and the time honored feel and style of those weapons as well. I ENJOY punching the center ring out of a target and a given yardage or competing against other shooters at the various contests. And i ENJOY hunting for my own form of proteins,, very tasty ones might i add.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Jul 8, 2014 - 08:46am PT
Right now, my store probably has about ten weapons in the back room on holds from back ground checks- as those initial checks had indicators of issues which are then researched and the sale will either be approved or denied. We have a system of FOUR checks to our paper work on each and every sale of a weapon and go beyond ATFE requirements in that procedure. And yes we have NO issue with stopping a sale if we get one inkling of falsehood or straw purchases. We are all trained to spot those as well. And i also feel good about that.

If "Grandma" wants to buy her grandson his first 22 rifle for a birth day gift, that isnt a straw purchase and is approved. If Grandma volunteers to fill out the paper work for her SON who wants the rifle for his kid, that is an alert and the sale is then a straight up straw purchase. And will be denied. Just one of the many scenarios we see in gun sales.
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Jul 8, 2014 - 08:53am PT
stopped a party of litter bugs on the river near me that also had gang tatoos making them pick up the trash they had just deposited on MY clean river bank.

well then eco-warrior. good thing you had a gun. carry on.
moosedrool

climber
lost, far away from Poland
Jul 8, 2014 - 08:56am PT
The vast majority of the world gets along well enough that it doesn't feel the need to carry a gun and looks upon those that do as dangerous freaks.


Yep!

Andrzej
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jul 8, 2014 - 08:58am PT

if anyone can pick up a newspaper and buy any weapon advertised for sale without any background check....

so any crazy SOB or convicted Felon, anyone, can right now get any gun right away...

and we all know this is true

then why even have any background checks?

Ron works in the business and is trained on all of this

I would like Ron's opinion as to how following the law at his store does any "good" at all?

why bother with laws then? Ron?
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Jul 8, 2014 - 09:01am PT
Danmm skippy Wade,, they would have laughed at me and probably gang banged me had i not been armed. They had NO CLUE as to how pissed off i was watching them pull in and just start dumping their mcdonalds trash and beer bottles out of their car. And they muttered non stop in spanish as they picked up that crap with me standing there with a shot gun and side arm and my dog Sally-O watching their every move. And i felt GOOD about that.



edit: Norton,, obumbly has RELEASED thousands of convicted illegals recently, and among those are murderers, rapists , child molesters and robbers. Why have laws at all you ask~~~ indeed....They govt now seeks to DUMP even more third world illegals in and around the neighborhoods of the USA and since the buses were stopped they are now being flown. Why have laws at all?? Our local sheriff KNOWS the identity's of 900 criminal gang members here but can not do anything about those in a preventative action, but rather a reactionary thing AFTER they commit more crime and finally get caught. And they are ILLEGALS to begin with~~~ why have laws at all indeed..
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jul 8, 2014 - 09:33am PT
Well Gary during my LEO stint i had death threats issued to me from a perp or two..I dont consider those funny.

I don't consider that funny, either, Ron, and trust me, I'm happy you avoided trouble in those instances.

I still hate the thought of living in a world where school children need bullet proof whiteboards and backpacks.
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