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madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Mar 12, 2015 - 11:51am PT
The Community College Philosophy Professor should protest a little less. Madbolter, I almost thought you were reasonable until you trolled out old Sam Colt and his six shooter being what makes people equal.

Where did you get the idea that I'm a community college professor, JB?

Regarding me arguing that way, really... no. I'm saying that it's an implication of Gary's whining about gun-carriers apparently having "more of a right" to self-defense.

Personally, I think Zimmerman was an idiot. Apparently (according to a court) within his legal rights, but an idiot nevertheless. Even sticking with the real world as opposed to some fantasy-land that has Martin the "victim," Zimmerman was looking for a confrontation, and he just might have been the dead one out of it. That's always the risk in life-death confrontations!

Reasonable and responsible gun-carriers are not looking for a confrontation, because they know the profound limitations of the gun. And they know the profound legal ramifications for using it, even in a totally-justified self-defense situation.

The gun does not suddenly make you invulnerable. In fact, odds are that even well-trained shooters are going to, under life-and-death stress, not aim well and likely miss. Repeatedly. And if the confrontation is close-range enough that a miss is unlikely, that's far "too close for comfort."

Ultimately, any situation that actually did require the use of the gun is far, far too close for comfort. And the gun in no way guarantees that the outcome goes your way. And that's even before you hit the courtroom, if you live to see it!

So, yes, there are some gun-toting, wannabe Rambos that give a bad name to gun-carrying. But they are not in the majority.

I, too, have had a change of perspective during this thread. Initially I was opposed to ANY new gun-control laws. At this point I would support a well-written universal background check law.

I understand Ron's complaint about it being just another tax. That's a pain, no doubt! My worry concerns a "national gun registry," and if that can be explicitly (written into the text of the background-check statute itself) precluded, then I would support it.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Mar 12, 2015 - 11:54am PT
The DOJ just go through with its investigation into the original Ferguson shooting and found ZERO evidence to convict the officer of anything, that after two other separate investigations. But the ones that LIED in court and to police a bout that incident walk free. They were probably the same ones to shoot two Ferguson police officers last night.

Yeah I've wondered why there won't be any charges against those who attempted to frame the cop. Seems to me that if you falsely accuse someone of crime, you should get the same sentence that your intended victim would have received.

I don't know if Holder is a criminal, but he seems to have horrendous judgment, which is an unfortunate quality for the nation's top law enforcement official.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Mar 12, 2015 - 11:55am PT
"The plural of anecdote is not "data."

I love that saying. Too bad that most people that it applies to have no idea what it means.


I got some nice 9mm hollow points the other day...anybody wanna see 'em?
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Mar 12, 2015 - 12:02pm PT
Still got a few Black Talons.

I hear that the cardboard boxes alone go for $40!
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
Maestro, Ecosystem Ministry, Fatcrackistan
Mar 12, 2015 - 12:26pm PT
Do you not grasp the orwellian implications of your plan?

No, not really.

DMT
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Canada
Mar 12, 2015 - 01:34pm PT
MB1,

Canada tried a national gun registry starting in 1992 and it was a resounding failure. It never worked properly and went from an initial tax cost estimate of 2 million dollars to actually costing an estimated 2 billion dollars. The full amount we will never know,it's characterized as "embarrassing". The intention originally was for all guns to be registered and registry fees to pay for the program.

The Canadian gun registry was scrapped in 2012, although handgun restrictions and registration laws dating from 1934 are still in effect.

this link has something to consider for everyone in this discussion:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Firearms_Registry

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Mar 12, 2015 - 01:58pm PT
More is the pity.




Ron,
I think that likely the best defense rounds are in the frangible class, unless you are dealing with armor.
One of the things we learned in Somalia was that ball ammo overpenetrates.
The new green bullet is devastating (but expensive).
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Mar 12, 2015 - 02:24pm PT
They only poke small holes.

Four words: BMG 50 - problem solved!
[800 gr (52g) Barnes - 2,895 ft/s (882 m/s) 14,895 ft·lbf]

Yer welcome. ;-)
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Mar 12, 2015 - 02:28pm PT
Good post, JB. I had to laugh out loud at this line: "We have an ongoing gun crisis including firearms-related homicides lately in Toronto, and a law registering firearms has neither deterred these crimes nor helped us solve any of them."

Clearly what the Canadians call a "crisis" and what Americans call a "crisis" are two very different things. ;-)

madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Mar 12, 2015 - 02:31pm PT
Yer welcome. ;-)

Holy Destroy Everything it its Path, Batman!

Yer welcome indeed.

One of my favs: the .50 vs. 10 reams of paper.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Mar 12, 2015 - 02:37pm PT
Yahhh but at 5.00 a shot YEEEESH!

... "seeing whatever it hits evaporate: priceless."

Not quite, but, well... wow.
johnboy

Trad climber
Can't get here from there
Mar 12, 2015 - 05:37pm PT
Show me your "data" where a crime was committed via a private sale of a gun from a legal law-abiding gun owner

Haha, as if there was comprehensive data from private sales.

Show me your data that there are no unicorns.

johnboy

Trad climber
Can't get here from there
Mar 12, 2015 - 06:02pm PT
No, you have the preconceived notion that it's never happened, with out any data to back you up since there isn't any.

johnboy

Trad climber
Can't get here from there
Mar 12, 2015 - 06:08pm PT
Your lack of discerning the difference between data and anecdotal points is your problem.

fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Mar 12, 2015 - 07:00pm PT
Once again... if there is a demand, there will always be a supply.

Fixing the demand-side of the equation is the only way to make progress. But that's hard.... Easier to pass more laws nobody will follow either.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Mar 12, 2015 - 07:15pm PT
Fixing the demand-side of the equation is the only way to make progress. But that's hard.... Easier to pass more laws nobody will follow either.

That's why we need to work on the supply side. Stop manufacturing firearms.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Mar 12, 2015 - 07:25pm PT
ATF officials say that only about 8% of the nation's 124,000 retail gun dealers sell the majority of handguns that are used in crimes.

So going on the presumption that those 8% are indeed 'licensed' as the agent
says why can't they run them down? Are they too busy eating donuts or
grousing about being under-funded or what? What good are licenses if
there's no way to check up on them?
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Mar 12, 2015 - 08:17pm PT
That's why we need to work on the supply side. Stop manufacturing firearms.

Ahh... another proponent of the government starting up a new "war on" something. Like the "war on drugs," the "war on illiteracy," the "war on 'xyz,'" you name it.

Show me ONE supply-side "war on" anything the government has waged that: 1) has been successful in stopping or even significantly reducing the amount of xyz in circulation; and 2) did not produce a vast black market of xyz, coupled with the violent cartels that spring up to manage the flow of xyz at huge profit.
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Canada
Mar 12, 2015 - 08:29pm PT
Answer:

Polio and Measles vaccines.

There are one or two brief moments when democracies dispense with individual rights in favour of what's best for every one.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Mar 12, 2015 - 08:37pm PT
Ahh... another proponent of the government starting up a new "war on" something. Like the "war on drugs," the "war on illiteracy," the "war on 'xyz,'" you name it.

Well, that's a good point. But we have to do something, IMHO. There's too much gun violence in this country, don't you think?

Oh, and what's wrong with a war on illiteracy?
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