The Gun debate sandbox

Search
Go

Discussion Topic

Return to Forum List
This thread has been locked
Messages 5101 - 5120 of total 5484 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Mar 11, 2015 - 01:51pm PT
Your claim that we'll never get the full story from both sides is absolutely correct. However, the court did its best....

What's your source for that information?

The court found that Zimmerman produced and discharged his gun only after he was underneath and being savagely beaten by Martin.

He was following the kid with a gun. That could reasonably be termed stalking, couldn't it?

"Reasonably?" Apparently not. Rather than for you and I to brandish our opinions about, the better alternative is to look at the court transcripts and findings. The court found that Zimmerman was not "stalking" in any legally-relevant sense. Martin (obviously) did not know Zimmerman was armed. To call a neighborhood-watch guy a "stalker" is pretty impressive!

Martin lived there, and was returning from the store with tea and candy. Is that not a legitimate purpose?

"Returning home?" Is that how you're casting it? LOL

The area was a hotbed of break-ins and burglaries, to the extent that dozens of residents stated publicly and to police that they no longer felt safe living there. In the preceeding weeks, Zimmerman and other neighborhood-watch people called police repeatedly to report incidents of young men (coincidentally dressed like Martin) peering in the windows of empty homes. The police were in and out of that community frequently, due to neighborhood-watch calls of suspicious activity.

Now, against that backdrop, on the night of the incident, according to police dispatch records, it is NOT fair to cast Martin's "activities" as though he was just "returning home." He was not walking straight home. It was raining, and he was NOT just making a bee-line for his home. He was loitering, wandering, checking out houses, and when he saw Zimmerman's car he started running. None of that can be cast as "returning home." He was acting suspicious, he was called in as suspicious, and the area was awash in suspicious/criminal activity.

BTW... do you really want to do this???

The Martin shooting has been discussed ad nauseum, and your using of THIS as some paradigm example of "stand your ground" gone bad is an astoundingly bad example!
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Mar 11, 2015 - 01:53pm PT
Martin stood up to an armed THUG with a criminal record.

HAS to be trolling.

NOBODY with a knowledge of the public record of the incident could reasonably cast the incident that way.

I'm done with the Martin example. Next you'll be race-baiting with it.

Oh, GAG!
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Mar 11, 2015 - 09:18pm PT
Gary, how do you propose that smaller/weaker (perhaps due to age or disability) persons defend themselves against physical assault?

By any means possible,like Martin did. What I'm getting out of this thread, correct me if I'm wrong, is that there seems to be a tendency to think that anyone with a gun has a superior right to self-defense. Martin should have got on his knees and begged for mercy?
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Mar 11, 2015 - 09:27pm PT
The court found that Zimmerman produced and discharged his gun only after he was underneath and being savagely beaten by Martin.

How was that determined? Zimmerman's testimony?

"Reasonably?" Apparently not. Rather than for you and I to brandish our opinions about, the better alternative is to look at the court transcripts and findings. The court found that Zimmerman was not "stalking" in any legally-relevant sense. Martin (obviously) did not know Zimmerman was armed. To call a neighborhood-watch guy a "stalker" is pretty impressive!

That's why I'm here, to brandish my opinion about, same as you. He had a gun, and he went after the kid. That's a fact. If you want to call it something other than stalking, that's fine.

"Returning home?" Is that how you're casting it? LOL

Hadn't he been to the store? Wasn't he carrying Skittles and tea? What would you call it?

NOBODY with a knowledge of the public record of the incident could reasonably cast the incident that way.

I beg to differ.

I'm done with the Martin example. Next you'll be race-baiting with it.

I'll thank you to not put words in my mouth. Just having a discussion. It's obviously upsetting you, so I'll bow out.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Mar 11, 2015 - 10:12pm PT
I'll thank you to not put words in my mouth.

I'm not the one putting words in your mouth. Clearly the early-adopter, race-baiting media theories (that have all since been debunked) about the case have stuck in your mind, and that's what comes out of your mouth.

In your fantasy land, where Martin was just innocently minding his own business and got assaulted and then killed by a "thug" with a gun, I would say that you've just made a generally strong case for the famous line: "God made all men. Sam Colt made them equal."
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Canada
Mar 12, 2015 - 03:21am PT
It's all relevant Jonnyrig, to all views posted.

This thread has the sport enthusiast, the cautionary tale, Colt himself as a surrogate Jesus, I shoot to feed my family, the farmer eradicating varmints, the personal preservationist and every other avenue of experience involving why they throw lead or don't.

It's a cool thread and I personally have said a lot of input here has changed my mind about why.

The Community College Philosophy Professor should protest a little less. Madbolter, I almost thought you were reasonable until you trolled out old Sam Colt and his six shooter being what makes people equal.

If that's what you truly believe, your libertarian self should really go after the no good civil and criminal legal system as a fraudulent institution.



Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Mar 12, 2015 - 06:18am PT
jonnyrig, thanks for the interesting and thoughtful reply.

So to think, as you're getting out of this thread, that he with the firearm is making claim to a superior right to self-defense is really only half-assed logic. They're not claiming superior rights, just superior armament. Or at least equal armament. A fighting chance, so to speak.

There's a mythology at play here, in some posts, of the armed citizen fighting righteously against injustice out on the street. Zimmerman fit this myth, so there are those who defend him, despite his pre and post trial record, because to do otherwise upsets the myth. One poster can't even comprehend the possibility that the self-appointed vigilante with the gun could be in the wrong, it gets him seething mad.

But to think that none of us is capable of taking on that responsibility in a nonthreatening manner, with the requisite skill and judgement to have reasonable odds of successfully defending ourselves and our loved ones is... well, pathetic.

I disagree here that it is pathetic to think that. I used to spend time with some competition shooters, steel plate and action pistol shooters. One of their topics of discussion was what they would do if someone ever f*#ked with them on the street. It was something they looked forward to happening.

These guys were experts, mind you. Bianchi Cup shooters, one was California action pistol champ.

One day some kid shoplifted a part out of a store. A chase ensued, the kid went all parkour and was going over a wall. One of the guys called upon the holy spirit of Sam Colt and was about to shoot the kid in the back when he fortunately realized what he was about to do. Shoplifting is wrong, but it's not a capital offense.

The power of life and death is heady stuff.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Mar 12, 2015 - 06:19am PT
It's perfectly clear to me why people obsessed with guns are referred to as "nuts."
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Mar 12, 2015 - 06:46am PT
Gary, how do you propose that smaller/weaker (perhaps due to age or disability) persons defend themselves against physical assault?

This and the "battered woman" argument is always a go to in these conversations but almost always made by physically abled men who own lots of guns. If guns were effective in preventing abuse, why is domestic abuse so rampant in America? Gun ownership in America is incredibly high and violent crime persists. There is a persistent desire among those for whom guns fulfill an emotional need to justify that need rationally or ideologically and it usually falls short. A physically superior person or someone simply armed with a melee weapon attacking a target within 20 feet who does not have their gun drawn is probably going to win the initial encounter, especially if their intent is truly to harm. Cops train for that all the time.

This debate would be a lot more honest if people would simply admit that the guns make them feel safe and powerful.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Mar 12, 2015 - 06:47am PT
For sure there are people truly "obsessed" with firearms. The same way there are true cases of obesessions with every imaginable thing there is.

For what it's worth in my several decades around firearms I've met only a handful who might fit that diagnosis.

The vast majority are normal people with normal lives.

Same goes for climbers or any other hobby. The tendency is for ignorant people who don't participate in a given activity to lash out and decree the other group as "nuts".

Ignorance with perhaps a dash of fear.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Mar 12, 2015 - 09:31am PT
I'm sorry but when we are unable to pass any kind of laws related to gun ownership because a relatively few people have a stranglehold on the political process motivated by six degrees of separation slippery slope logic wherein virtually all laws or regulatory actions are motivated by the secret desire to "take all our guns away" the generalization is warranted.

Remember that time the Access Fund got a law passed forbidding contractors from offering granite countertops or gravel driveways because it would inevitably lead to the closure of all rock climbing in North America?

http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2014/08/doctors-cant-ask-about-guns/375566/
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Mar 12, 2015 - 09:43am PT
Ron, I appreciate your posts because you so plainly lay out your facile logic.

http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/211321-poll-most-gun-owners-support-universal-background-checks


Just because you own a gun does not mean that you want less strict gun laws nor does it mean you think that doctors talking about gun safety is just another attempt to begin "taking away all the guns." It's just paranoid delusion fueled by arms manufacturers, lobbyists and dealers such as yourself. People raked in the cash on AR-15's and other assault style weapons in the massive fear backlash after Obama's elections and Sandy Hook. Result? Lots more money in the hands of gun makers/dealers and now you can carry in National Parks! THEY ARE COMING FOR YOUR GUNS AT ANY MOMENT, RON!

Let's be honest here. A black kid with a toy gun is more likely to get killed in this country than a bunch of white guys with assault rifles aggressively confronting federal agents will even be charged with a crime.

*edit* Hell, you can be buck naked but if you're wielding blackness you're more likely to get killed than a white dude with a gun: http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2015/03/10/police-shooting-unarmed-naked-man/24689183/
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Mar 12, 2015 - 09:56am PT
Wow, Jim is sundowning at dawn.

OK, this nut went shooting with Bill and Anastasia yesterday. Bill is clearly a better marksman than our green beretted friend. Of all the docs I've shot with he is clearly the best.

I think that this debate will go on endlessly,..... unless Hillary gets gets her old digs back.


I'm glad I was born when I was.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
Maestro, Ecosystem Ministry, Fatcrackistan
Mar 12, 2015 - 10:04am PT
I truly don't get it. The only reason to protest background checks for private gun sales is to preserve the ability to sell guns to criminals?

It seems to me: if you sell a gun to a criminal, then you become criminal by that act. So to avoid becoming criminal, why wouldn't you want to validate the person with whom you are about to transact?

To preserve the ability to conclude the sale, bank the money and avoid scrutiny by the government. ie preserve the ability to sell guns to criminals and then lalalalalalalala I can't hear you innocent (deaf and blind) angel wings.

DMT
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Mar 12, 2015 - 10:41am PT
DMT, I know that you know there are also laws against cruelty to animals
yet whips are still legal and the horse you're beating is quite dead, so I
guess you're technically not a perp, yet. Swing by Sin City and I'll take
you on a drive-by where they don't care about no stinkin' background checks.
Criminals aren't stoopid enough to use guns they didn't steal or buy from
other criminals.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
Maestro, Ecosystem Ministry, Fatcrackistan
Mar 12, 2015 - 10:46am PT
I didn't think I'd get a straight answer... ;)

DMT
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Mar 12, 2015 - 10:56am PT
Ron....i take it you're referring to the GOP side of tha asile. I agree, let's stop coddling them.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Mar 12, 2015 - 10:59am PT
Hey Dingbat, it is not about preserving the right to sell to criminals. Any ethical person knows that guilt is attached to the crime making him an accomplice. There is no grey area. The light is either on or off.

Do you not grasp the orwellian implications of your plan?


donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Mar 12, 2015 - 11:03am PT
Referring more to criminal ignorance.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Mar 12, 2015 - 11:30am PT
Ron posted
In fact not one gun owner I know has ever sold a gun to someone they didn't know very well.

The plural of anecdote is not "data."
Messages 5101 - 5120 of total 5484 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
Return to Forum List
 
Our Guidebooks
Check 'em out!
SuperTopo Guidebooks


Try a free sample topo!

 
SuperTopo on the Web

Review Categories
Recent Trip Report and Articles
Recent Route Beta
Recent Gear Reviews