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Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
Maestro, Ecosystem Ministry, Fatcrackistan
Mar 12, 2015 - 12:26pm PT
Do you not grasp the orwellian implications of your plan?

No, not really.

DMT
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Canada
Mar 12, 2015 - 01:34pm PT
MB1,

Canada tried a national gun registry starting in 1992 and it was a resounding failure. It never worked properly and went from an initial tax cost estimate of 2 million dollars to actually costing an estimated 2 billion dollars. The full amount we will never know,it's characterized as "embarrassing". The intention originally was for all guns to be registered and registry fees to pay for the program.

The Canadian gun registry was scrapped in 2012, although handgun restrictions and registration laws dating from 1934 are still in effect.

this link has something to consider for everyone in this discussion:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Firearms_Registry

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Mar 12, 2015 - 01:58pm PT
More is the pity.




Ron,
I think that likely the best defense rounds are in the frangible class, unless you are dealing with armor.
One of the things we learned in Somalia was that ball ammo overpenetrates.
The new green bullet is devastating (but expensive).
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Mar 12, 2015 - 02:24pm PT
They only poke small holes.

Four words: BMG 50 - problem solved!
[800 gr (52g) Barnes - 2,895 ft/s (882 m/s) 14,895 ft·lbf]

Yer welcome. ;-)
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Mar 12, 2015 - 02:28pm PT
Good post, JB. I had to laugh out loud at this line: "We have an ongoing gun crisis including firearms-related homicides lately in Toronto, and a law registering firearms has neither deterred these crimes nor helped us solve any of them."

Clearly what the Canadians call a "crisis" and what Americans call a "crisis" are two very different things. ;-)

madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Mar 12, 2015 - 02:31pm PT
Yer welcome. ;-)

Holy Destroy Everything it its Path, Batman!

Yer welcome indeed.

One of my favs: the .50 vs. 10 reams of paper.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Mar 12, 2015 - 02:37pm PT
Yahhh but at 5.00 a shot YEEEESH!

... "seeing whatever it hits evaporate: priceless."

Not quite, but, well... wow.
johnboy

Trad climber
Can't get here from there
Mar 12, 2015 - 05:37pm PT
Show me your "data" where a crime was committed via a private sale of a gun from a legal law-abiding gun owner

Haha, as if there was comprehensive data from private sales.

Show me your data that there are no unicorns.

johnboy

Trad climber
Can't get here from there
Mar 12, 2015 - 06:02pm PT
No, you have the preconceived notion that it's never happened, with out any data to back you up since there isn't any.

johnboy

Trad climber
Can't get here from there
Mar 12, 2015 - 06:08pm PT
Your lack of discerning the difference between data and anecdotal points is your problem.

fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Mar 12, 2015 - 07:00pm PT
Once again... if there is a demand, there will always be a supply.

Fixing the demand-side of the equation is the only way to make progress. But that's hard.... Easier to pass more laws nobody will follow either.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Mar 12, 2015 - 07:15pm PT
Fixing the demand-side of the equation is the only way to make progress. But that's hard.... Easier to pass more laws nobody will follow either.

That's why we need to work on the supply side. Stop manufacturing firearms.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Mar 12, 2015 - 07:25pm PT
ATF officials say that only about 8% of the nation's 124,000 retail gun dealers sell the majority of handguns that are used in crimes.

So going on the presumption that those 8% are indeed 'licensed' as the agent
says why can't they run them down? Are they too busy eating donuts or
grousing about being under-funded or what? What good are licenses if
there's no way to check up on them?
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Mar 12, 2015 - 08:17pm PT
That's why we need to work on the supply side. Stop manufacturing firearms.

Ahh... another proponent of the government starting up a new "war on" something. Like the "war on drugs," the "war on illiteracy," the "war on 'xyz,'" you name it.

Show me ONE supply-side "war on" anything the government has waged that: 1) has been successful in stopping or even significantly reducing the amount of xyz in circulation; and 2) did not produce a vast black market of xyz, coupled with the violent cartels that spring up to manage the flow of xyz at huge profit.
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Canada
Mar 12, 2015 - 08:29pm PT
Answer:

Polio and Measles vaccines.

There are one or two brief moments when democracies dispense with individual rights in favour of what's best for every one.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Mar 12, 2015 - 08:37pm PT
Ahh... another proponent of the government starting up a new "war on" something. Like the "war on drugs," the "war on illiteracy," the "war on 'xyz,'" you name it.

Well, that's a good point. But we have to do something, IMHO. There's too much gun violence in this country, don't you think?

Oh, and what's wrong with a war on illiteracy?
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Mar 12, 2015 - 08:48pm PT
"Show me ONE supply-side "war on" anything the government has waged that: 1) has been successful in stopping or even significantly reducing the amount of xyz in circulation; and 2) did not produce a vast black market of xyz, coupled with the violent cartels that spring up to manage the flow of xyz at huge profit."

The Clean Air Act?

The Japanese Empire?

The Tennessee Valley?
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Mar 12, 2015 - 09:18pm PT
Okay, I'll play, since clearly this has become a joke:

Polio and Measles vaccines -- You're saying the government waged a war on the product that is the vaccines? Uhh... no. You're saying the government waged a war on the products Polio and Measles? Try to hold the point in your head here.... In what way is Polio and Measles like guns? Is there a "market" for Polio or Measles? Does anybody purchase or consume Polio or Measles?

Illiteracy -- Uhh... no win in sight on this one, and the above point holds. Illiteracy is no product with a market.

DDT -- Ahh... a possible contender. No real "war on." Instead, the government simply made it illegal, and chemicals companies filled the void with things that work as well without the (same) side-effects. So, if you want a true parallel, you'd have to have a "war on" pesticides. Didn't happen. Won't happen. And if the government declared "war on" guns, and some company could make a better alternative that was legal, that company would own the market. Otherwise, the black market will own the market.

The Clean Air Act -- Just dumb. Is pollution a product with a market? Is there a demand for pollution that the government has rendered illegal on the demand side?

The Japanese Empire -- Same points as above.

Asbestos -- Finally, another contender. Again, the government didn't make insulation illegal. It rendered a particular form of insulation illegal in certain contexts (asbestos is NOT illegal in all contexts). There has been nothing resembling a "war on" asbestos, and chemical companies have provided viable alternatives in the few contexts in which it is illegal. Again, whenever the government makes even certain forms of guns illegal, manufacturers will simply produce others that serve the same purpose but that skirt the regulation(s).

Lead Paint -- Same as above, only even more so.

You guys aren't even trying to argue charitably!

I'm obviously not saying that the government is utterly, entirely ineffectual in all respects. What I am saying is that the government has yet to successfully wage a "war on" any in-demand product, either by punishing people demanding the product or by shutting down the supply side of that product.

Pick any vice you wish (and for anti-gunners, guns are a "vice" of the "gun-nuts"), and the government has not successfully shut that vice down. THAT sort of "war on" is what the government cannot successful wage.
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Canada
Mar 12, 2015 - 09:44pm PT
Take a knee li'l buckaroo,

The world took aim at polio and measles not so long ago and managed to rally the medical troops to infiltrate the population and inoculate us all. Any questions about fairness were left to GOD ALMIGHTY to sort out.

If this triumph of intelligence over individual rights tried to happen today, we would all be covered in spots with a fever, coughing at anyone who was still alive, or with legs the same size, about abrogation of civil rights !

HAHAHA !
johnboy

Trad climber
Can't get here from there
Mar 12, 2015 - 09:47pm PT

Polio and Measles vaccines -- You're saying the government waged a war on the product that the vaccines? Uhh... no. You're saying the government waged a war on the products Polio and Measles? Try to hold the point in your head here.... In what way is Polio and Measles like guns? Is there a "market" for Polio or Measles? Does anybody purchase or consume Polio or Measles?

Illiteracy -- Uhh... no win in sight on this one, and the above point holds. Illiteracy is no product with a market.

DDT -- Ahh... a possible contender. No real "war on." Instead, the government simply made it illegal, and chemicals companies filled the void with things that work as well without the (same) side-effects. So, if you want a true parallel, you'd have to have a "war on" pesticides. Didn't happen. Won't happen. And if the government declared "war on" guns, and some company could make a better alternative that was legal, that company would own the market. Otherwise, the black market will own the market.

The Clean Air Act -- Just dumb. Is pollution a product with a market? Is there a demand for pollution that the government has rendered illegal on the demand side?

The Japanese Empire -- Same points as above.

Asbestos -- Finally, another contender. Again, the government didn't make insulation illegal. It rendered a particular form of insulation illegal in certain contexts (asbestos is NOT illegal in all contexts). There has been nothing resembling a "war on" asbestos, and chemical companies have provided viable alternatives in the few contexts in which it is illegal. Again, whenever the government makes even certain forms of guns illegal, manufacturers will simply produce others that serve the same purpose but that skirt the regulation(s).

Lead Paint -- Same as above, only even more so.

You guys aren't even trying to argue charitably!

I'm obviously not saying that the government is utterly, entirely ineffectual in all respects. What I am saying is that the government has yet to successfully wage a "war on" any in-demand product, either by punishing people demanding the product or by shutting down the supply side of that product.

Pick any vice you wish (and for anti-gunners, guns are a "vice" of the "gun-nuts"), and the government has not successfully shut that vice down. THAT sort of "war on" is what the government cannot successful wage

All while on one leg,
spinning and whistling while rubbing your tummy,
and mixing a drink,
while winking alternate eyes,
and playing a harmonica,
and doing a handstand,
while painting a bridge
.........
..........,
.....
.......,,,,
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