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madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Mar 12, 2015 - 02:28pm PT
Good post, JB. I had to laugh out loud at this line: "We have an ongoing gun crisis including firearms-related homicides lately in Toronto, and a law registering firearms has neither deterred these crimes nor helped us solve any of them."

Clearly what the Canadians call a "crisis" and what Americans call a "crisis" are two very different things. ;-)

madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Mar 12, 2015 - 02:31pm PT
Yer welcome. ;-)

Holy Destroy Everything it its Path, Batman!

Yer welcome indeed.

One of my favs: the .50 vs. 10 reams of paper.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Mar 12, 2015 - 02:37pm PT
Yahhh but at 5.00 a shot YEEEESH!

... "seeing whatever it hits evaporate: priceless."

Not quite, but, well... wow.
johnboy

Trad climber
Can't get here from there
Mar 12, 2015 - 05:37pm PT
Show me your "data" where a crime was committed via a private sale of a gun from a legal law-abiding gun owner

Haha, as if there was comprehensive data from private sales.

Show me your data that there are no unicorns.

johnboy

Trad climber
Can't get here from there
Mar 12, 2015 - 06:02pm PT
No, you have the preconceived notion that it's never happened, with out any data to back you up since there isn't any.

johnboy

Trad climber
Can't get here from there
Mar 12, 2015 - 06:08pm PT
Your lack of discerning the difference between data and anecdotal points is your problem.

fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Mar 12, 2015 - 07:00pm PT
Once again... if there is a demand, there will always be a supply.

Fixing the demand-side of the equation is the only way to make progress. But that's hard.... Easier to pass more laws nobody will follow either.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Mar 12, 2015 - 07:15pm PT
Fixing the demand-side of the equation is the only way to make progress. But that's hard.... Easier to pass more laws nobody will follow either.

That's why we need to work on the supply side. Stop manufacturing firearms.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Mar 12, 2015 - 07:25pm PT
ATF officials say that only about 8% of the nation's 124,000 retail gun dealers sell the majority of handguns that are used in crimes.

So going on the presumption that those 8% are indeed 'licensed' as the agent
says why can't they run them down? Are they too busy eating donuts or
grousing about being under-funded or what? What good are licenses if
there's no way to check up on them?
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Mar 12, 2015 - 08:17pm PT
That's why we need to work on the supply side. Stop manufacturing firearms.

Ahh... another proponent of the government starting up a new "war on" something. Like the "war on drugs," the "war on illiteracy," the "war on 'xyz,'" you name it.

Show me ONE supply-side "war on" anything the government has waged that: 1) has been successful in stopping or even significantly reducing the amount of xyz in circulation; and 2) did not produce a vast black market of xyz, coupled with the violent cartels that spring up to manage the flow of xyz at huge profit.
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Canada
Mar 12, 2015 - 08:29pm PT
Answer:

Polio and Measles vaccines.

There are one or two brief moments when democracies dispense with individual rights in favour of what's best for every one.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Mar 12, 2015 - 08:37pm PT
Ahh... another proponent of the government starting up a new "war on" something. Like the "war on drugs," the "war on illiteracy," the "war on 'xyz,'" you name it.

Well, that's a good point. But we have to do something, IMHO. There's too much gun violence in this country, don't you think?

Oh, and what's wrong with a war on illiteracy?
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Mar 12, 2015 - 08:48pm PT
"Show me ONE supply-side "war on" anything the government has waged that: 1) has been successful in stopping or even significantly reducing the amount of xyz in circulation; and 2) did not produce a vast black market of xyz, coupled with the violent cartels that spring up to manage the flow of xyz at huge profit."

The Clean Air Act?

The Japanese Empire?

The Tennessee Valley?
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Mar 12, 2015 - 09:18pm PT
Okay, I'll play, since clearly this has become a joke:

Polio and Measles vaccines -- You're saying the government waged a war on the product that is the vaccines? Uhh... no. You're saying the government waged a war on the products Polio and Measles? Try to hold the point in your head here.... In what way is Polio and Measles like guns? Is there a "market" for Polio or Measles? Does anybody purchase or consume Polio or Measles?

Illiteracy -- Uhh... no win in sight on this one, and the above point holds. Illiteracy is no product with a market.

DDT -- Ahh... a possible contender. No real "war on." Instead, the government simply made it illegal, and chemicals companies filled the void with things that work as well without the (same) side-effects. So, if you want a true parallel, you'd have to have a "war on" pesticides. Didn't happen. Won't happen. And if the government declared "war on" guns, and some company could make a better alternative that was legal, that company would own the market. Otherwise, the black market will own the market.

The Clean Air Act -- Just dumb. Is pollution a product with a market? Is there a demand for pollution that the government has rendered illegal on the demand side?

The Japanese Empire -- Same points as above.

Asbestos -- Finally, another contender. Again, the government didn't make insulation illegal. It rendered a particular form of insulation illegal in certain contexts (asbestos is NOT illegal in all contexts). There has been nothing resembling a "war on" asbestos, and chemical companies have provided viable alternatives in the few contexts in which it is illegal. Again, whenever the government makes even certain forms of guns illegal, manufacturers will simply produce others that serve the same purpose but that skirt the regulation(s).

Lead Paint -- Same as above, only even more so.

You guys aren't even trying to argue charitably!

I'm obviously not saying that the government is utterly, entirely ineffectual in all respects. What I am saying is that the government has yet to successfully wage a "war on" any in-demand product, either by punishing people demanding the product or by shutting down the supply side of that product.

Pick any vice you wish (and for anti-gunners, guns are a "vice" of the "gun-nuts"), and the government has not successfully shut that vice down. THAT sort of "war on" is what the government cannot successful wage.
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Canada
Mar 12, 2015 - 09:44pm PT
Take a knee li'l buckaroo,

The world took aim at polio and measles not so long ago and managed to rally the medical troops to infiltrate the population and inoculate us all. Any questions about fairness were left to GOD ALMIGHTY to sort out.

If this triumph of intelligence over individual rights tried to happen today, we would all be covered in spots with a fever, coughing at anyone who was still alive, or with legs the same size, about abrogation of civil rights !

HAHAHA !
johnboy

Trad climber
Can't get here from there
Mar 12, 2015 - 09:47pm PT

Polio and Measles vaccines -- You're saying the government waged a war on the product that the vaccines? Uhh... no. You're saying the government waged a war on the products Polio and Measles? Try to hold the point in your head here.... In what way is Polio and Measles like guns? Is there a "market" for Polio or Measles? Does anybody purchase or consume Polio or Measles?

Illiteracy -- Uhh... no win in sight on this one, and the above point holds. Illiteracy is no product with a market.

DDT -- Ahh... a possible contender. No real "war on." Instead, the government simply made it illegal, and chemicals companies filled the void with things that work as well without the (same) side-effects. So, if you want a true parallel, you'd have to have a "war on" pesticides. Didn't happen. Won't happen. And if the government declared "war on" guns, and some company could make a better alternative that was legal, that company would own the market. Otherwise, the black market will own the market.

The Clean Air Act -- Just dumb. Is pollution a product with a market? Is there a demand for pollution that the government has rendered illegal on the demand side?

The Japanese Empire -- Same points as above.

Asbestos -- Finally, another contender. Again, the government didn't make insulation illegal. It rendered a particular form of insulation illegal in certain contexts (asbestos is NOT illegal in all contexts). There has been nothing resembling a "war on" asbestos, and chemical companies have provided viable alternatives in the few contexts in which it is illegal. Again, whenever the government makes even certain forms of guns illegal, manufacturers will simply produce others that serve the same purpose but that skirt the regulation(s).

Lead Paint -- Same as above, only even more so.

You guys aren't even trying to argue charitably!

I'm obviously not saying that the government is utterly, entirely ineffectual in all respects. What I am saying is that the government has yet to successfully wage a "war on" any in-demand product, either by punishing people demanding the product or by shutting down the supply side of that product.

Pick any vice you wish (and for anti-gunners, guns are a "vice" of the "gun-nuts"), and the government has not successfully shut that vice down. THAT sort of "war on" is what the government cannot successful wage

All while on one leg,
spinning and whistling while rubbing your tummy,
and mixing a drink,
while winking alternate eyes,
and playing a harmonica,
and doing a handstand,
while painting a bridge
.........
..........,
.....
.......,,,,
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Mar 12, 2015 - 09:59pm PT
There's too much gun violence in this country, don't you think?

I think that there's just too much violence! Period. Guns make a subset of that violence easier to perpetrate.

The endless focus on the tool is TO avoid the much harder questions about the real causes.

"Meanwhile," you'll say, "Let's make the tool much harder to get." But, as I've tried to argue above, that is the thing the government won't accomplish. The harder you make any "vice" product to get, the higher the price of it goes and the more crime (including organized) WILL spring up around the market for that vice.

As I've said upthread, decades ago when I lived in the Inland Empire, I knew lots of gangland people. I could have gotten Laos Rockets if I wanted them. Grenades and grenade launchers? No problem. ALL totally illegal for civilian possession. ALL totally accessible through black market channels, and none so expensive that even a guy like me couldn't afford them. The only reason I didn't have a pile of grenades is that I couldn't think of any good use for them. Everybody I knew was packing, all illegally.

The average, law-abiding person doesn't realize HOW MUCH illegal weaponry is available and how cheaply. I found that it was cheaper to buy an illegal gun from people I knew than to buy that exact same gun over the counter, sometimes as little as half the cost of the legal gun.

It's naive' in the extreme to think that "reducing" the tool is really going to "reduce" it in the black market. Such efforts may push the costs up, and that may push the real low-life criminals to even more-so cheap-crap weapons. But ultimately, the very people you most don't want having weapons are the very ones that will always have them.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Mar 12, 2015 - 10:07pm PT
The "war on" terminology is hysterical rhetoric.

There's no "war on guns" except in your head. Nobody wishes to make guns illegal in all contexts.

I was responding to:

That's why we need to work on the supply side. Stop manufacturing firearms.

And my point was that it doesn't work.

Your lame comparisons to polio/measles and pollution entirely miss the point (I have now concluded: intentionally). Polio/measles and pollution do not fit the "supply/demand" model. There is no product, no "market," no supply/demand equation at all, and, hence, no "war on" in the sense that the government tries to eliminate/reduce "vices" like drugs, alcohol, prostitution, etc.

All talk of what the government can do when it "really, really tries," so to speak, pitching "democracy" to the winds, is yet more specious argumentation. FIRST the government got people motivated to eradicate these diseases. And even then, there was far from 100% compliance (just as today) in the "mandatory" vaccination programs.

Nothing of the sort applies to the gun argument, nor will anything of the sort make a dent in the gun market, democracy or no.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Mar 12, 2015 - 10:17pm PT
But, seriously....

What do you WANT?

What do you think "success" looks like?

Don't say "a reduction in gun violence," because in this context "reduction" is a moving target (smirk).

If you were Emperor Obama right now, and could just ignore Congress and the SCOTUS however you pleased, what would you enact by executive order RIGHT NOW to "reduce" gun violence? And what "reduction" effect would you project your action to produce?

Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Canada
Mar 12, 2015 - 10:18pm PT
Let's avoid confusion.

You started a sub discussion regarding what any "war" on anything a government has won. You were then offered many examples but couldn't understand how a subject can also be an object.

Damn right everyone was made to line up and get an immunization shot whether they liked it or not. A population is by definition, homogenous. In a time of epidemic, no one gives a sh#t about what you hold to be precious, personally.
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