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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Apr 15, 2013 - 08:50pm PT
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Routine intakes of alchohol and caffeine among the public alters brain chemistry to a greater extent than common dosages of these prevalent antidepressants.
You do know it is often illegal to carry gun while under the influence of alcohol, right? But not illegal to carry a gun while under the influence of prescription drugs... yeah that makes sense.
...antidepressants considered so benign that an M.D. can prescribe them...no need to consult with a psychiatrist.
Thalidomide was so benign it was prescribed to expecting mothers to deal with symptoms of morning sickness.
I'm sorry you are too blind to see the truth behind those drugs. I bet your sweet little mormon ass you oppose the legalization/use of recreational drugs and have probably never been drunk... but bring on the prescription meds, cuz the Dr and my bishop said they're fine! Tell me, have you known anyone who killed themselves shortly after "feeling the benefits" of those drugs? Let me know when you do... we can talk.
But using standard and well-established antidepressants
hahaha, redefining "well-established" now are we? Whatever. Go swallow your pills and live in your fairytale land. Encourage your neighbors to take the same "standard and well established" drugs and buy all the guns they can for safety. Enjoy the world you create... Jesus would be proud of all his drugged up, gun toting hypocrites.
ex-wife's kid physically attacked her while on nothing more than "pot". So I guess we all have different experiences don't we?
Absolutely we do. I've had bad experiences on what I was told was "nothing more than pot" and I am 100% certain it was definitely NOT "nothing more than pot." How sure are you that it was in fact "nothing more than pot?"
Was that his first violent outburst? Doubt it.
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hillrat
Trad climber
reno, nv
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Apr 15, 2013 - 09:10pm PT
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Yeah, that was his first. No, I don't know if anything else was in it. Yes, he's a huge part of why I left her. No, he did not have access to any of my guns. Yes, if you can disprove what I say and what I've experienced through casting doubt on it, you win. Shoulda been a trial lawyer. Believe whatever you want.
I know another guy who couldn't function on Norco, etc for his leg and bad back. Was a drooling vegetable much of the time. Got a pot license, grew his own. Totally different, functional person then. So, like I said, your experience may vary. Be aware, that just because YOU never saw someone have a problem with it, doesn't mean it can't happen.
But hey, that's what it's all about, right? Personal experience? Except when you simply discard the experience of others because "that's not how it happened to ME" you discard what may have valuable insight into the realm of "other" possibilities.
So, if 98% of the population takes a drug with no ill side-effect, and it only affects the other 2% by causing them to suicide, does that mean we get to ignore the 2% since we didn't personally experience it? Hmmm...
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Apr 15, 2013 - 09:15pm PT
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There are people I refuse to smoke with. There are people I refuse to drink with. There are people who should be refused the right to keep and bare killing machines. No government conspiracies, no liberal panties up my ass, no fear of guns... just common sense.
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hillrat
Trad climber
reno, nv
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Apr 15, 2013 - 09:19pm PT
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Yep. Some can smoke, some can't. Same with people on mind-fuk drugs.
I guess maybe we ought to make passing a psych exam the prerequisite for owning a firearm. Let's just hope the shrink isn't on some of those wonderful drugs himself, or have some mental deficiency that precludes an accurate analysis of some potentially murderous future firearm buyer.
I'm outa here. Good night.
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Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
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Apr 15, 2013 - 09:40pm PT
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Thalidomide was so benign it was prescribed to expecting mothers to deal with symptoms of morning sickness...
...hahaha, redefining "well-established" now are we? Whatever. Go swallow your pills and live in your fairytale land. Encourage your neighbors to take the same "standard and well established" drugs and buy all the guns they can for safety. Enjoy the world you create... Jesus would be proud of all his drugged up, gun toting hypocrites.
Thalidomide was marketed before medications were thoroughly tested...and thalidomide is not a serotonin reuptake inhibitor such as the medications I mentioned...
This class of anti-depressants have been used by tens of millions...24.4 million prescriptions for Prozac alone in 2010.
Yes, Wes, I define that as "well-established".......
I'm sorry you are too blind to see the truth behind those drugs. I bet your sweet little mormon ass you oppose the legalization/use of recreational drugs and have probably never been drunk... but bring on the prescription meds, cuz the Dr and my bishop said they're fine! Tell me, have you known anyone who killed themselves shortly after "feeling the benefits" of those drugs? Let me know when you do... we can talk.
...and, , no, I'm not advocating drugs, anti-depressants or otherwise. I'm saying if present gun control argument hinges on drug prescriptions...it's destined for failure. And Harry Mason Reid is obliging self-defeating behavior yielding to assault weapons advocates and persuing the prescription drug imbroglio...
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Apr 15, 2013 - 10:13pm PT
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Alcohol is far better established and has been tested for much, much longer than SSRI's. Yet it is illegal in many places to possess firearms while intoxicated. This is nothing new and it was done because (almost) any sane person can understand that you don't want to put a killing machine in the hands of someone on drugs.
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Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
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Apr 15, 2013 - 11:23pm PT
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Yet it is illegal in many places to possess firearms while intoxicated.
Yes, in many state and local laws...firearms “readily accessible for immediate discharge” cannot be carried or held while an individual is impaired by alchohol.
But people who USE alchohol are not prevented from OWNING guns.
And the critical question regarding anti-depressant users is: Are they impaired?
Since anti-depressant users are allowed to drive cars while under typical doses...the answer will be no!
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Apr 15, 2013 - 11:27pm PT
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But people who USE alchohol are not prevented from OWNING guns.
People who are under the influence of alcohol ARE prevented from USING guns.
People on SSRIs are ALWAYS under the influence of SSRIs, as long as they are taking their medication.
And what would be the point of OWNING guns if you aren't going to USE them?
Stop being an idiot.
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Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
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Apr 16, 2013 - 08:50am PT
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Stop being an idiot
If there are idiots in this caterwaul, look to those who place confidence
in the pleas of convicts and psychopaths, sir.
...those who abandon personal accountability with the foil that anti-depressants made THEM do it, while the tens of millions of law abiding folk taking such medication, feel no such impulse.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Apr 16, 2013 - 11:54am PT
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Responsible firearm ownership requires a sound mind. I don't think it's unreasonable for those on psychotropic drugs to be denied legal access to firearms.
Potential for violence? Are illegal aliens any more violent than the general population? How about marijuana addicts? Are they more prone to violence than everybody else?
How about someone dishonoralby discharged from the military? Is that a reliable indicator of future violent actions? You can earn yourself a dishonorable discharge for refusing to participate in violence.
If you believe those who tell you the prisons are all so full of non-violent drug offenders that we don't have space there for the really bad eggs, then felons aren't necessarily all violent, either.
All those folks - illegal aliens, marijuana users, the dishonorably discharged, and felons of course - are all on the list of "prohibitted persons" as far as legal firearm ownership is concerned.
Those on psychotropic drugs need to be included on that list.
As long as you're clammoring for the government to "do something", let's do something about the perscription drug / mental health industrial complex.
The clerk at the Gun Shop, or the guy with a table of rifles at the Gun Show, should have the same access to our mental health records as they do our criminal histories.
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Apr 16, 2013 - 01:15pm PT
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look to those who place confidence in the pleas of convicts and psychopaths, sir.
And who would that be mam?
those who abandon personal accountability with the foil that anti-depressants made THEM do it
What a complete load of sh#t. If you break the law, you should be held accountable, no matter what drugs you are on. Only a fool would argue that taking drugs removes any accountability... and only a fool would argue that people on mind altering drugs should have guns.
while the tens of millions of law abiding folk taking such medication, feel no such impulse.
130 million law abiding folk take alcohol in the US, about 40% of the population. Only ~600,000 violent crimes a year are committed under the influence of alcohol. Over 129 million law abiding citizens a year don't commit violent crimes under the influence of alcohol... yet it is still illegal to be under the influence of alcohol and be in possession of a firearm.
People on drugs designed to fuk with your mind should not have guns.
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Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
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Apr 16, 2013 - 01:22pm PT
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I don't think it's unreasonable for those on psychotropic drugs to be denied legal access to firearms.
Perhaps a clear definition of psychotropic will contribute to clarity in the discussion.
A psychotropic drug is any substance that crosses the blood–brain barrier and affects brain chemistry. Caffeine, aspirin, various analgesics are included in the category. Pharmeceutical companies test psychotropic medications for years on a multitude of volunteers to guage how they affect alertness, judgement etc.
Those substances that affect judgement and alertness in a negative manner...are deemed inappropriate to consume while driving, operating machinery etc.
The backwater line of reasoning that Zoloft, Paxil, Prozac etc. cause violent tendencies comes primarily from criminals and their defense alliance...and the resulting backwash of hearsay.
Deprive guns to users of psychotropic material?
Caffeine alone will disqualify 90% of the population from owning guns...Fine with me, guys, but it won't fly with the public...
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Apr 16, 2013 - 01:29pm PT
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but coffee and aspirin don't come with several pages warning of potential side effects, side effects which include violent behavior and suicidal thoughts.
As long as we're in the mood to "do something" - no matter how inneffectual, such as limiting magazine capacity and registering legal guns - we may as well address the mentally ill, who seem to be the ones responsible for the problem at hand.
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Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
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Apr 16, 2013 - 02:04pm PT
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Splintering our pike on vague windmills of psychotropic culpability simply won't end the express and calculated slaughter of innocents.
The public's disgust with assault weapons is at a historical maximum. Is now the time to push for abolishing them entirely (in the civilian population) ? Or should we wait for more grotesque ambush?
One doesn't have to be a zealot for repealing the Second Amendment to see these weapons have little utility in legitimate civilian life. Why not destruct the corporeal in mass murder rather than focus on intangibles destined to prove weak...or thwarted entirely?
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Apr 16, 2013 - 02:04pm PT
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The backwater line of reasoning that Zoloft, Paxil, Prozac etc. cause violent tendencies comes primarily from criminals and their defense alliance...and the resulting backwash of hearsay.
More bullshit from a pretentious girl who spends way too much time with her thesaurus and not enough time thinking.
1) Much of it comes from families who have lost loved ones to suicide and/or experienced the irrational violent behavior associated with SSRIs.
2) In order to be prescribed SSRIs you have to be evaluated by a medical professional and diagnosed with a mental disorder. You are arguing that people with MENTAL DISORDERS who are on inadequately understood/tested mind altering drugs should be allowed easy access to guns. I can only conclude you have a mental disorder or are on drugs.
Don't get me wrong, I have plenty of friends and relatives who have been diagnosed with mental disorders and/or are on SSRIs. I love them with all my heart and would do anything for them... except ensure they have easy access to killing machines, especially while trying out new meds with the FDA warning...
Antidepressants increased the risk compared to placebo of suicidal thinking and behavior (suicidality) in children, adolescents, and young adults in short-term studies of major depressive disorder (MDD) and other psychiatric disorders.
and more
http://www.fda.gov/downloads/Drugs/DrugSafety/InformationbyDrugClass/UCM173233.pdf
In the FDA review, no completed suicides occurred among nearly 2,200 children treated with SSRI medications. However, about 4 percent of those taking SSRI medications experienced suicidal thinking or behavior, including actual suicide attempts—twice the rate of those taking placebo, or sugar pills.
FYI, ~600,000 violent crimes a year are reported to involve alcohol. An estimated 130 million people drink alcohol in this country. For comparison, less than 0.46 percent of those "taking alcohol" commit violent crimes... mind the decimal. Even if all suicides involved alcohol consumption (which is silly), the number is ~0.03%. For attempted suicides, it is 0.3%... again, mind the decimal.
SSRI medications usually have few side effects in children and adolescents, but for unknown reasons, they may trigger agitation and abnormal behavior in certain individuals.
Well, as long as they have easy access to guns while we try to find the reason... benign and well established indeed!
edit:
If I remember correctly, Norton is a (very reasonable and responsible) gun owner with a mental disorder who takes SSRIs (or other Rx). Would you (Norton) have been opposed to surrendering your guns temporarily during your initial treatment and evaluation with mind altering meds, at least until you and your Dr were convinced you were not adversely affected by them? Would you be opposed to having them taken away in the unlikely event you were determined unstable by a Dr or 3 or 5? Would you be opposed to the same for your neighbors?
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Apr 16, 2013 - 02:20pm PT
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Jennie writes:
"The public's disgust with assault weapons is at a historical maximum. Is now the time to push for abolishing them entirely (in the civilian population) ? "
I don't know about that. You can believe what people say, or if you want the truth you can watch what people do.
Gun shops are having a hard time keeping any product in stock, and people are waiting in line for hours to enter gun shows. Demand for guns has never been higher, at least not in my lifetime.
Twenty years ago, Congress passed an "assault" weapons ban - something that won't be done this time around - so a good case can be made the level of "disgust" you mention was actually higher in the 90's than it is today.
But demand for guns has never been greater.
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Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
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Apr 16, 2013 - 03:07pm PT
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More ...from a pretentious girl who spends way too much time with her thesaurus and not enough time thinking.
Yes, maybe I can get Zoloft for my pretentiousness.
And if they treat obnoxiousness with it...you could certainly qualify, sir!
The fact is there are tens of millions of people on these anti-depressants...most without destructive mental disorders. Millions are given prescriptions to treat sleeping disorders, eating disorders, anxiety over losing family members etc.
Crusading against gun violence is great, Wes. But I'm going to opt for methods more likely to bring a desired effect. Deprive fifteen...twenty percent of the population Second Amendment rights?
I won't be pretentious and say "Go for it!" (...but I will be shaking my head)
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Apr 16, 2013 - 03:15pm PT
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The fact is there are tens of millions of people on these anti-depressants...
No, the fact is the drugs fuk with your head.
The percentage of people who commit violent crimes or attempt suicide while "taking alcohol" is more than an order of magnitude LESS than the percentage of people who attempt suicide while "taking SSRIs."
Possessing guns while under the influence of alcohol is an acceptable law that has been in place for quite some time... because people aren't fuking idiots and realize it just makes sense.
How could anyone in their right mind argue for not restricting gun access for those taking drugs that result in a much higher rate of suicide attempts?
Obviously the link between violent crime and SSRIs hasn't been made... when you commit a violent crime, you are not tested for SSRIs... yet.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Apr 16, 2013 - 03:17pm PT
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Deprive fifteen...twenty percent of the population Second Amendment rights?
Jennie, curious as to how strongly you feel about the Second Amendment, would you mind addressing your reply solely as to what was "meant" over two hundred years ago when the finest weapons were single shot black powder muskets that took a good amount of time to reload?
for example, do you seriously feel that the guys that wrote that single sentence would feel that the armed citizens of today ought to have unlimited magazine size military style assault weapons?
would universal background checks and say limiting clips to 10 rounds "deprive" citizens?
just curious, not disagreeing with you on anything specific
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Apr 16, 2013 - 03:22pm PT
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What is silly is comparing the size of your guns to those of our government.
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