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Mister_Roborto
Trad climber
Queensland
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My wish is that guys like Alex, don't end up like guys like Bachar
I never met John, but I have met a few guys who have shared times with him. As a revered statesman, indeed, it would seem mighty to grow and live with the spirit Bachar shared. If that means dying from a calculated fall (knowing the risks), then it seems such is part of the freedom some chase in life.
I am only a few years new to climbing, so I had to ask a few people who you were Coz cause you were beating others down with your "resume". Nobody I asked at the Boulder Rock Club was sure who you were, so we googled you on the compuda madooda in the lounge. You should make a Wikipedia page, you've done some awesome stuff.
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goatboy smellz
climber
Nederland-GulfBreeze
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
May 5, 2012 - 09:50am PT
Thank you Captain Bossyface.....
I thought he was promoted to Major last week?
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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I thought he was promoted to Major last week?
Goat, ah you're probably right. Hell he may even Colonel Bossyface by now.
Werner's awesome, I just love to fling it back at him once in a while. He's so AUTHORITATIVE when he tells us we're stupid, or to stfu, it just gives me goosebumps and makes me want to obey...
Coz, speaking of zeniths, no wonder I realize that climbing isn't that important.
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zBrown
Ice climber
Chula Vista, CA
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LongAgo
Trad climber
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Why Some Are Riled
I think what riles some seeing my post and others like it, understandably, is I go beyond thoughts, reflections and hopes to offer advice. But who am I, who are any of us, to do so, goes the argument, whether to Honnold or anyone in the game? Here’s my proposition: all of us, irrespective of our achievements or stature in the climbing community (most fast fading and illusionary in many ways) should be able to offer one another counsel. We should be able to do so based not on who we are but what relevant experience the years have brought us. I think sometimes we ignore, diminish or even ridicule experience, insight and wisdom of many who post with honest and probing points because they are not of a certain rank. The ensuing discussions then are short circuited or rancorous or both and therefore a loss to us all. The only stricture I would put on advice giving is it comes from respect and empathy and steers clear of dictating. I hope my Points for Honnold were caring, closer to prayer than commandment, but I may have missed the mark.
Why We Should Speak Up
Peter, to be ornery again, I do disagree about the scales you propose, advancement in climbing in one scale pan and death in the other. To the degree climbing advances in terms of higher, freer, faster, I believe it does so quite detached from death. I point you to the AAC Accident Reports as evidence. There, we quickly learn the great bulk of deaths and injuries beset climbers in the most haphazard and mundane of ways, and mainly befall the least rather than most experienced of us, those not working toward any great advancement, and often in the middle of something routine. Thumb though the pages and pages of the regular weekender of no particular note, sometimes distracted, sometimes miscalculating, sometimes tired. And when the more experienced are involved, they too often are not working the cutting edge when fate strikes, but going about the same mundane moments, like your descent off Washington Column about which you write, or Lynn Hill falling into a tree after some rappel or anchoring glitch, or poor Madson rappelling off the end of his rope all the way down El Capitan, or Bachar apparently finished with a moderate climb for him, maybe even descending.
So I see no war, no noble cause of winning new ground where we hum along in some dusky march, watching our comrades fall and concluding, “Ah well, the price we pay.” Further, I see that line of thinking as dangerous, for it means we say nothing, conclude nothing, advise nothing on the subject of free soloing, and even resist or diminish those who do as dictatorial, high handed, and undermining the freedom of climbing or the unity of the imagined march. I think it is important we stand with our varying opinions on free soloing, allow the debate from all corners and with varying conclusions and, yes, advice. Most likely the youngest in the game are not listening, but we then will know we have stated our case, with hope, best reason we can muster and respect, if we can tame our tempers.
In short, I see no advancement for climbing should that young, hopeful and happy soul we see in the video clips on this thread break a hold and fly to his death. To the contrary, I see climbing depressed, even set back, as we absorb the loss and some of us wonder and fear who will be next.
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Gee, Tom, no problems at all; you are not being ornery---but I love it when you are, it gets exciting sometimes, tusseling ‘n stuff---- but find you are only stating the obvious. The way obvious. To everyone. Where is your chew toy? I sense it has gone missing in the sofa cushions again. What the legion of solo climbers have been doing for decades and decades, and long before when all those early mountaineers basically climbed without ropes or then a bit later with ropes that couldn’t really hold falls, is clear to everyone. And what we did all through the Trad years of the sixties and seventies with our humongous runouts. We are climbing without ropes, without the benefit of ropes. There it is. The Emperor has no clothes! Fall down go boom.
Meanwhile, if you want to take up your time and that of others huffing dramatically on the sidelines, from some spot way back there, go ahead. I’ll watch and pour tea as your graying friend. Knock yourself out. It is your right, and you must not hesitate, Tom, right? I know how you love arguing, even all by yourself. It just is not news at all, in any way, how deadly these soloing ventures really are and have been like for one hell of a long time now, if you haven’t noticed. I find your dramatizations over them tardy, oddly timed, and oddly emotional and why today? You have got yourself in such a state! Alex is no different and stands in the long tradition of soloists and is comparable in many ways to our forefathers even, namely doing a load of stuff that is wildly dangerous and not for any practical pursuit or purpose. And if we at your behest scurry off distractedly to read the Accidents in North America publications and somehow manage to once again be alarmed by its reports, we are not in any way shown that there is a kind of climbing that should be stopped. Instead, perhaps all of it should be stopped or maybe none of it. The activity is crazed across the board and yet serves much more abstract purposes than I fear you have ever realized. It becomes unclear you understand this subject, frankly, even though you were a legendary figure.
But you do more than plea for Alex to stop unroping stuff and scaring you. You intend to dissuade him from that part of his climbing that is the most important and personal to him but the most worrisome, gruesome even, to you and I am sure many others. You are pleading with him to curtail his soloing hard. Your effort here is just a less well-worded version of our very own poet, Ed Drummond’s bizarre intonement of March 19, 2010.
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1122068&tn=0&mr=0
You don’t mention it, but the gorilla in the living room for both you and Ed must be the upcoming first solo unroped ascent of one of the big El Cap routes. This is going to take place very soon and I am concerned that you be ready, Tom. Maybe Alex will do it or maybe one of the Euros who have been doing stuff perhaps even scarier than Alex, will do it. (Your omission of Europe’s current soloists needs looking at, too; why the hell are you leaving them out? Their stuff is terrifically scary.) Anyway, when that day arrives, you are going to blow a fuse and I want someone to be with you when it happens, you see.
I especially thrill to your inducting me into the Devil’s Army. I wasn’t sure I could still qualify, what with my prosthetic knee and advancing age. Having successfully avoided the Draft forty-two years ago, toward the end of my life I find myself nonetheless conscripted, “humming along in some dusky march, watching (my) comrades fall and concluding, ‘Ah well, the price we pay’”. You leave it out, but I am wondering what melody we will be humming, especially since “Night on a Bald Mountain” is terrifically hard for beginners and wonder too, if you will be with me? You ascribe to my position the notion that I think climbing’s “golden path” is lit by the funeral pyres of the fallen. Thank you, as it is much easier to have others speak for me than to bother with the words and ideas myself. And true, my first thought of course when Bachar, Madsen, Baldwin, Hersey, Chris Chen, Diana Hunter et al left us was simply to thrill to all these splendid quantum leaps in our art. It was like Christmas every time! Got to love a vampiric theory of climbing progression, it offers up so much pub-side.
No, if we miss any of our soloists--- and there are a ton of them--- it would be just awful. Really awful. And yes, any deaths in climbing, soloists included, set us ALL back. The whole art back, and badly. No question and certainly not a new point either. It is in the very heart of how and why we climb that we can lose our lives or those of loved or admired ones, all in an absurd twinkling and all for no practical reason, just art, just climbing. It is such a basic feature of our activity that to continually wring our hands about it, especially without any current trigger to work from, like fresh news of a gruesome solo death today, seems sensationalistic to me and to miss the core ideas here, especially since I am in lock-step in the Devil’s army, on the golden path over the cliff.
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skywalker
climber
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Did you ever read Voltaire's "Candide"?
He says live life at Benny Hill freak out speed
Not a quote of what he wrote but a paraphrase
Make it up as you go Keyser Soze
Highlights yes but don't underline 'em
Just live for N.O.W. like Gloria Steinem
Life is like Marion Barry
It's not all that it's cracked up to be
Like Fred Sanford when the big one comes
Find the meaning of life is there is none
It's twenty-four hours when you call it a day
Be Frank and say "I Did It My Way"
Don't give a flying nun no don't give a Gidget
Just have more fun than a well-oiled midget
If life were picture perfect you could frame it
But the world is a diaper so let someone else change it
Life is an aimless drive that ya take alone
Might as well enjoy the ride, take the long way home
May I have your attention please?
May I have your attention please?
All born equal unless you're Canadian
[ From: http://www.elyrics.net/read/b/bloodhound-gang-lyrics/take-the-long-way-home-lyrics.html ]
Then halfway through decay like Uranium
You define what's death-defying
Get the most out of life or at the least die trying
Are you Evil Knievel jumping a train?
Or running with scissors like Frasier Crane?
Have really good times doing really bad things
'Cause the show ain't over 'til the fat lady sings
Like Elton John with his candle in the wind
It's hard to blow out a flame as big as him
But we've all got to Wang Chung with the Grim Reaper
Whether you're Einstein whether you're Beaker
Death is certain so it's definitely worth flirtin'
Don't expect a bright light no just curtains
Life is like a penis most people don't know it
But most people suck so they usually blow it
Life is an aimless drive that ya take alone
Might as well enjoy the ride take the long way home
Life is an aimless drive that ya take alone
Might as well enjoy the ride take the long way home
That's enough!
I said that's enough!
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nature
climber
CO
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on one hand I admire and appreciate what coz stated - life is precious. remember that.
on another, I admire what Werner has to say. Go mind your own f*#king business.
what will happen will happen.
oh the drama.....
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skywalker
climber
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Just sayin again
But we've all got to Wang Chung with the Grim Reaper
Whether you're Einstein whether you're Beaker
Death is certain so it's definitely worth flirtin'
Don't expect a bright light no just curtains
Life is like a penis most people don't know it
But most people suck so they usually blow it
Yes mind your own business!
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LongAgo
Trad climber
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Sparing Going Sour Fast
O Peter, fun sparing, but I think it’s time to do it over wine face to face. The discussion is getting edgy if not snarky between two old warhorses and the discussion points now are well-worn for anyone interested in the substance. I promise to bring by chew toy so not to get too overwrought, but from the tone of your post, you need bring yours too. I find it very far from “pouring tea” as you describing yourself sitting back so relaxed as I go on.
Lordy, I’m hardly assigning you to the “Devil’s Army” by taking you on for claiming: “climbing CAN justify its deaths.” I would not call it a charge from the leader of the Devil’s Army, but the phrase goes much farther than simply noting the long line of soloists and associated hang wringing, as your last post does. Your assertion rationalizes the consequences. Look again: you did write those words. Did you really think no one would call you on them?
There is so much tangential in you post to the issue at hand. Maybe I should worry about you as much as you claim to be worried about me. What is this stuff about me “huffing dramatically from the sidelines,” “taking my time and that of others.” Is there some regulation requiring time consuming reading of Supertopo, especially the bantering of fogies? And is it just my posts which take valuable reading time or yours too? As for my own time, do I really need to state the obvious: that’s my business? And “sidelines?” I couldn’t agree more I am a sideline, if by that you mean an occasional versus frequent voice on Supertopo. Still, I think I still can think, have some experiences to offer and … O, hell, fill in the blanks. Of course, if by “sideline” you mean a long ago (my very AKA) as in not current trend setter in climbing, well there’s a description befitting both of us. So what? Then there’s “worry” about me, awaiting my “blowing a fuse” and thinking perhaps I’ve lost it, claiming you doubt I “understand the subject.” My writing “oddly” timed (as if I’m “sensationalizing” the subject somehow, as you find), and “oddly” emotional? What are you implying, dementia? Your most incredible rabbit-out-of-the hat is the claim I’m telling Alex to stop like some worried parent, not only another personalized diversion from the topic but simply false. You claim I “plea for Alex to stop unroping stuff and scaring you.” I never do any such thing. Such a clear F in debate 1A. Now I’m the worried one.
Peter, you have fallen prey a very old, transparent, obfuscating tactic in debate: knock the opponent, raise suspicions about his/her veracity, put words in their mouth, all to stay off topic. Poor readers have to be thinking, stop making this about Higgins. Really, look at the thread topic – Honnold, free soling. You do finally get onto the subject, but by the most obvious and dismissive hand waving: climbing is dangerous and risky, soling is simply another part of climbing, a big part always has been, deaths of climbers are equal, get over it, it’s all “way obvious;” in fact, implicitly, shut up.
The Point(s)
So let’s go back to the discussion itself and get rid of the smoke. Just what has been said and where are we? We have a thread on Alex Honnold. We have a glimpse of him and his reflections on soling in some interesting bits of his writing. We have a dramatic U-Tube video of him on the subject climb, including the moment he seems to hesitate, up and down, at or near the crux. No “sensationalizing” by Higgins here. We’re not watching a European soloist. We’re not examining the history of soling or climbing across time. We’re watching and listening to him, having our gut reactions and writing. That’s the context.
What’s being said? Some are saying God I wouldn’t let my kid do this. Others are saying forget it. It’s part of the climbing game. We all take risks and took risks of one degree or another. Others are saying some voices in the debate are hypocritical. Others are saying it doesn’t matter what we think it’s up to him. Others are warning no matter what we say don’t prescribe for him or anyone.
What did I say? Yup, your choice, Alex. We’re humbled watching you. Really hope to God you don’t fall. Stay tuned to the inner voice. You seem to be onto what fulfills beyond the soling. Grab that tight. Keep writing, honestly, to the bone. It helps clarify what you want. Watch out for illusions about control. Sh#t happens. Ponder some big life choices as you go. There are tradeoffs between soloing and family. What didn’t I say? I did not say stop it. How foolish that would be. I have no claim on him. None of us do.
The Disagreement
Now, what’s the disagreement on free soling between you and me? You have claimed deaths there are like deaths in all of climbing, expected part of the game at the “very heart of how and why we climb that we can lose our lives or those of loved or admired ones.” I agree all climbing has risk, but I think free-soling is especially risky. I believe it is too simple to put all climbing risks in one can and call them the same. I think doing so denies the obvious: free soling means you can’t make a mistake nor can you recover should nature pull a fast one and put a bird in your face, a broken hold in your hand. All obvious points you will note, but needing to be said loud and clear against the notion of one can for all risks.
Now here’s where things get tenser. You and I think only you (correct me) have claimed something, dare I use the word, odd: “Alex is very much a part of us and is going forward on our behalf as well as his own. Climbing CAN justify its deaths.” Now that got my blood up. I argued (with reference to AAC climbing injury and death records) that most injuries and deaths are NOT from climbing at the frontiers of difficulty, which is key to your point, not a diversion as you call it. If great volumes of deaths were at those frontiers, we would have a point to discuss about those deaths as the costs of “going forward,” but nope. Your premise folds.
Further, I hope and trust Alex does not climb in any sense “on our behalf” in his “going forward” especially if the “forward” is more and more free soling at the highest free climbing standards. Others will feel challenged to go the same path and then we may have to discuss a whole new set of AAC data on solo climbing deaths, and debate your proposition about what is worth what in the game. In that debate, you know where I stand: climbing deaths cannot be justified against any advancement, only regretted.
The End
Peter, I will let you have the last punch if you want it. I won’t respond if you choose to do so. I suggest we go off thread. We’ve made our points and probably worn out those already fatigued readers trying to finish their required reading.
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Dynamic
Trad climber
CA
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May 15, 2012 - 11:43am PT
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Be safe Alex. I didn't think that route was trivial, but the approach certainly was. Maybe you need a trip to the Himalayas.
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donnski
Mountain climber
Nanoose Bay, BC
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May 15, 2012 - 11:54am PT
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Yeah, I'm thinking the same thing.
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Cheldric
Sport climber
Colorado Springs
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May 15, 2012 - 01:37pm PT
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"I think it was the first time I've taken my pants off while soloing." Does this mean we won't be seeing this one on Nat Geo?? ;-) Thanks for the trip report!
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Alpinista55
Mountain climber
Portland, OR
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May 15, 2012 - 02:08pm PT
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Wow, a lot of really smart writing on this thread. Almost as humbling as Alex's climbing.
Once a friend and I climbed a peak in the Washington Cascades. We descended from the summit to a small hanging meadow, stripped naked and were napping in the sun with our feet dangling in a brook. I woke from the nap and started admiring a beautiful granite ridge that walled in one side of the meadow. Some uncounted moments later I found myself several hundred feet above the ground, still nude, balancing barefoot up the knife-edged ridge to the summit.
I've done a big climb or two, climbs that "meant something", I suppose. But that silly happy 5.9 romp above the meadow is my most treasured climbing memory. So I GET what Alex means when he talks about the freedom he feels when climbing cordless. Not for a moment do I equate my little solo with what Alex does, but I think I felt a bit of what he feels... I was in total control, I knew I wouldn't fall, so I didn't. I was climbing for the pure joy of the vertical movement.
All that said, I never felt driven to do more soloing. In fact, the drive left me that day long ago, sitting bare-assed on the top of the ridge, wondering how the f*#k I was going to get down.
Jk
PS: wow, just noticed how ST automatically bleeps your cuss words!
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ericz
climber
Ogden, UT
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May 15, 2012 - 02:27pm PT
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Ho Ho Ho !!! There is something wonderfully ironic about this,... a grand and varied commentary on social media from our sedentary ( at present ) positions,... on what is one of the most focused physical actions done individually. Beautiful !!!! This seems a good place for some Nietzsche; " Life wants to climb, and to overcome itself climbing. " Happy trails !!!!.....
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Will Eccleston
Trad climber
Atlanta, GA
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May 15, 2012 - 03:18pm PT
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For anyone saying free soloists should stop doing what they're doing, do you think people should stop alpine climbing as well? I'd bet everything I own that the number of deaths-per-outing in alpine climbing is astronomically higher than free soloing. I have no problem with anyone dying free soloing, or dying doing anything that's known to be dangerous. It does bother me just a little bit to know that anyone might be deluding themselves that death is not a distinct possibility. But if you free solo yourself to death, or alpine climb, or base jump, or wingsuit, or merely take a bad leader fall trad climbing and die, assuming you've weighed the risk of your death and the impact it would have on the people around you, then fine, go for it.
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Huecool
climber
Tucson, AZ
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May 16, 2012 - 10:31am PT
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Nice report, pls write more. We are all always searching, or should be. I for one do not fear my death, rather I fear not living the way my will guides me.
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gonzo chemist
climber
Fort Collins, CO
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May 17, 2012 - 02:54pm PT
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Just thought I'd revive this with a recent musing.
People seem to go on and on ad nauseum about Honnold and his soloing feats and how dangerous it is, and how he needs to step back from the edge.
I recently watched the "Reel Rock Tour 2011" segment on speed climbing the Nose. That sh#t seems WAY more dangerous than ANY of Honnold's soloing feats. Even Alex Huber said that its way too dangerous to keep pushing for faster times. ALEX HUBER: the guy who soloed Kommunist (5.14a).
But we don't get into these long, drawn out discussions, replete with philosophical offerings, when Hans is gearing up to retake the record. I just don't get it.
Good on Honnold for following his heart, wherever that may take him. Two roads diverged in a yellow wood.....and he took the one less traveled...
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harihari
Trad climber
Squampton
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May 17, 2012 - 06:03pm PT
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The real question here is, why are people so afraid of death?
I mean, obviously, nobody wants to die painfully, and if you have a family you gotta live your life so that you can take care of them (and this might preclude at-limit free-soloing).
But Honnold is young and unencumbered, I don't think he's married, and I know he doesn't have kids. So if he falls and dies, well, how awesome would it be to have lived a life that was not filled with compromises, one where one's death was as close to "chosen" as possible?
If the guy falls off of his most extreme project, I'm willing to bet he'll have a bit of "oh f**k!" going through his mind in those last few seconds before he splats, but I also bet he'll have precious few regrets.
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