CLIMB and PUNISHMENT- An Open Telegram to Alex Honnold

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Edwin Drummond

Trad climber

San Francisco, CA

Topic Author's Original Post - Mar 19, 2010 - 12:26pm PT

CLIMB and PUNISHMENT
(An Open Telegram to Alex Honnold)

Dear Alex,

Stop! Stop right now! While there’s still a chance you might live to tell how you nearly fell for it… 3000 feet more or less down the Nose route of El Capitan, bouncing and screaming for five seconds until you explode, hitting the earth at over a hundred miles an hour, beheaded at the feet of the waiting paparazzi, ghosts of the glossies. Silenced for ever.

Please stop; the bubble is trembling, stretched beyond belief, the gods are murmuring… They never repeat themselves. Let your baby panic attack on the Thank God ledge traverse on the North West Face of Half Dome, become your definitive saving grace. It was there the great white question arose from the depths as you began to fall apart, asking yourself what on earth you were doing up there, un-roped. Though not quite alone –audiences everywhere have heard the invisible camera man murmur that you can come back – the great, Tolstoyan questions begin slashing at the edge of your mind. And that, my friend, the love rush of reality into your heart (What am I doing? Where am I going?) as you stare down the infinite space beneath your feet, may well be Their first and last and one and only way of warning you that the time to turn back to search for your father on Earth has arrived.

I’ve seen the movie of your free solo ascent of that razored face, twice; heard it praised and appraised as ‘mental mastery’ – not assisted suicide, but the cutting edge of contemporary rock climbing. And I’ve been stunned by the guffaws of the audiences, especially when you start (at last!) to feel our old friend Fear, whom you’d be-foed before in a saddening attempt at wondering how climbers can become calmer, cooler, more requisitely abstract in staring down the stone, and sometimes stoned, face of Death. Let me call it.

‘Hubris:’ the country of no old men, whose thirsting warriors, dying to live, look down on those Lilliputian innocents at their feet looking up from the meadow, wondering; the long-lost native American family, resting and playing by the wandering river.

It’s clear that the contemporary climbing cult(ure?) is out for blood. Pushed to the wall a free, un-roped solo climb of El Capitan would provide them with a feast of fear, a pornographic center-fold of your inevitable fall, followed in faithful-tasteless detail as you take flight to meet your Un-maker. A cannibalistic cornucopia sufficiently sick to sate the violence consumer (for 2 or 3 hours). Don’t do it. Let El Capitan be…Not your billboard, big screen, pedestal or headstone, let El Cap remain the rising curtain on a young, long, astonishing life, your own blank page, new leaf, your empty canvas, snowfall-fresh, unsigned in blood; the clean slate where you make your mark alongside those most memorable predecessors, the ones who took the long way down: The Honorable Order of the Deck Chairs, residents of the many-seasoned meadow.
You don’t have to cross the line. You have nothing to prove. We love you. The magic happens down here too. Keep your feet on the ground Alex, think about the children following in your footsteps…

And She will find you.

Ed. Drummond.

Studly

Trad climber

Mar 19, 2010 - 12:30pm PT

That was uncalled for.

JEleazarian

Trad climber

Fresno CA

Mar 19, 2010 - 12:37pm PT

Welcome, welcome, Edwin. Just as others are agonizing over ST trends, you show up with this gem.

Thank you.

John

nature

climber

Tucson, AZ

Mar 19, 2010 - 12:50pm PT

apparently knott.

is he? and if so then why would he attempt it? seems like suicide to me.

survival

Big Wall climber

A Token of My Extreme

Mar 19, 2010 - 12:50pm PT

Well thought out and beautifully written.

I too have wondered to myself about the Half Dome gig.
And now the Nose?

Who wants it more? Alex himself,...or the ones that want Alex to want it?

How many times has he done it on a rope?

I know how solid I have been at times on certain pitches, and then gone back only to bungle a key sequence.....

Paul Preuss, Bachar and others might recommend against it, if only we could ask them.

You're well aware of the risk too Port, get up there. Why would it be uncalled for? Because he might read it and reconsider? What's your stake in it?

Edit: Not uncalled for at all. One of the most thought provoking posts here in a long time.

nature

climber

Tucson, AZ

Mar 19, 2010 - 12:58pm PT

eKat... yup... I know who he is and I don't think this is uncalled for in the slightest.

Mighty Hiker

climber

Vancouver, B.C.

Mar 19, 2010 - 12:59pm PT

A little about Edwin Drummond:
http://www.poetrymatters.150m.com/index_files/places_files/SacGnds_files/drummond.html
http://www.thebmc.co.uk/Feature.aspx?id=2092
(Lots more if you google the name.)

An interesting man and outstanding climber.

Reilly

Mountain climber

Monrovia, CA

Mar 19, 2010 - 01:00pm PT

Expressing one's honest opinion is uncalled for?
Maybe in N Korea.

nature

climber

Tucson, AZ

Mar 19, 2010 - 01:01pm PT

apparently some live in Korea or China around here....

High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber

Mar 19, 2010 - 01:08pm PT

The Taco... schizophrenic as ever.

survival

Big Wall climber

A Token of My Extreme

Mar 19, 2010 - 01:12pm PT

I think we all understand the mindset just fine Hank.

For you to think you understand it and we don't makes it seem like you think you're in a special class.

It's all good and Earth shattering if he makes it.

Just another tradgedy if he doesn't.

Why didn't Lynn solo it?
Croft?
Bachar?
You?

SteveW

Trad climber

The state of confusion

Mar 19, 2010 - 01:13pm PT

http://www.bigwalls.net/climb/Troll.html

Norwegian

Trad climber

Placerville, California

Mar 19, 2010 - 01:14pm PT

if alex can believe, then he must.
stripping himself of that opportunity will only land him mediocre and dreamless.

a sincere sentiment, ed. though it is warranted only within your heart.

nature

climber

Tucson, AZ

Mar 19, 2010 - 01:15pm PT

looks like Port retracted his "uncalled for" post.

....

and SuperTopo is a place where expression of the joy or pain in ones heart resides...

Port

Trad climber

San Diego

Mar 19, 2010 - 01:16pm PT

Yeah. Kind of a gut reaction.

Elcapinyoazz

Social climber

Redlands

Mar 19, 2010 - 01:17pm PT

My gut reply: Mind your own f*#king business.

Edit: Refering to the OP, not Port.

nature

climber

Tucson, AZ

Mar 19, 2010 - 01:17pm PT

yeah, understood. And I didn't point that out to be lame. You just left a few comments in regards to yours sitting there out of context.

I too ponder the intent and if it was called for.

I agree with survivals edit

paul roehl

Boulder climber

california

Mar 19, 2010 - 01:21pm PT

There is a point when achievment would seem to reach the level of absurdity...

But then I'm old, incapable and jealous.

ylevchenko

Trad climber

Bensalem, PA

Mar 19, 2010 - 01:22pm PT

"Crime and Punishment" was written by Dostoyevskiy, not Tolstoy.

caughtinside

Social climber

Davis, CA

Mar 19, 2010 - 01:24pm PT

Yes, let's tell people how they should climb.

High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber

Mar 19, 2010 - 01:25pm PT

"What matters" to a 20-something and "what matters" to a 40- or 50- something plus (let alone an older climber poet) can be as different as day and night. It's really a simple truth defined largely by our biology, our wiring and programming, and those set on looking for or establishing absolutes in right or wrong in this area won't find them.

Studly

Trad climber

Mar 19, 2010 - 01:27pm PT

I don't think its for us to discourage or encourage Alex Honnold in whatever he chooses to do. Anyone other then his close friends and family.
A bunch of old farts setting around their computers sending a message to the stongest bold climber in the world to....stand down? hahaha
I think Alex has it in his capacity to do whatever he chooses to do. Far better to warn off those climbers to the Himalaya whom expose themselves to objective dangers they have no control over like rock fall, avalanches, and storm, then to beg conservativism of this new generation of young climbers that have abilities far beyond what we can comprehend.
That said, a hearty Welcome to Ed Drummond who was out breaking the limits when I was getting into climbing.

Branscomb

Trad climber

Lander, WY

Mar 19, 2010 - 01:28pm PT

I like this post. The Hollywood Gladiator Effect is so alluring that it's hard to separate what you are doing for yourself vs what you are doing for the crowd. If you win, that's great, but if you can't make the distinction and get sucked in too deep, well, free soloing is unforgiving.

Too bad it got this way. Too bad it's no longer mainly an activity for social misfits and has become so much more mainstream. It was easier to be distainful of the crowd then, and thus easier to ignore that siren call.

But, it's all still up to the individual, if you want to push it to the edge. The price you are willing to pay is strictly up to you.

Mark Hudon

Trad climber

Hood River, OR

Mar 19, 2010 - 01:30pm PT

It's all good and Earth shattering if he makes it.

Just another tradgedy if he doesn't.

Yeah, I never want anyone to say "yeah, but he died rock climbing" about me.

Climbing is great and climbing is good bit it ain't that great and it ain't that good.

happiegrrrl

Trad climber

New York, NY

Mar 19, 2010 - 01:31pm PT

Can people provide some input as to why this climb seems to be in a class beyond what Honnold did on Half Dome? I am pretty clueless, obviously, but I am sure there are others here like me who will read this thread and wonder where/what the specific risks are. I will assume some discussion will come out in the thread on specific sections at some point, so I hope I;m not going to get the "go away kid, ya bother me" push off.

edit: okay - tell me to shove off. I hadn't realized it was The Nose being referred to. Thought the OP Title was the name of a route being referred to. Never mind(but I still want all the young climber chicks to go after Honnold, so I will leave the post).

Personally, I wish Alex a long, happy life, and that some young hottie(who is deserving of a nice young man) snags his heart. I only saw him at the 2009 Facelift, and then of course saw the Midnight Buttress/Half Dome film, but I don't see why the girls aren't stalking him like mad.

Good Luck, to Alex, in whatever pursuits he has. Sincerely,
TacoBelle Aunt Happie

The Alpine

Big Wall climber

Tampa, FL

Mar 19, 2010 - 01:32pm PT

Did I miss something? Is there talk (not just speculatory spray) that Alex is going for the captain?

tarek

climber

berkeley

Mar 19, 2010 - 01:32pm PT

And all is art on a grand stage above lesser art. Lesser art that might include a less eloquent letter written to the same climber about his roped climbs, some of which are likely more dangerous than his solos. But the rope shows that we care, in a token kinda way.

Some people have green eyes, and some have a fierce drive to explore the limits of their minds as they meet nature on a scale in her favor.

LuckyPink

climber

the last bivy

Mar 19, 2010 - 01:35pm PT

a huge welcome to Ed Drummond, who's heart is larger than the planet itself, who knows all the risks and all the rewards.

Port

Trad climber

San Diego

Mar 19, 2010 - 01:38pm PT

I was never been under the impression that Alex would choose to solo the Nose. I always though that free rider at 5.12d would be an "easier" route. Im curious what Largo will say about this.

klk

Trad climber

cali

Mar 19, 2010 - 01:39pm PT

yes, ed's post certainly helps to reduce the sideshow.

drljefe

climber

Old Pueblo, AZ

Mar 19, 2010 - 01:42pm PT

The Nose? Really?
I figured Freerider.

The only thing that's uncalled for is Hank's comment.
Hobo dickcheese?
THAT'S next level.

High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber

Mar 19, 2010 - 01:46pm PT

Favorite quotes so far:

Edwin Drummond-

"I was a tree. I grew, and I cast my shadow. And now it’s time to wind down, and that in itself brings a whole new set of challenges and interests."

Mark Hudon-

"Climbing is great and climbing is good bit it ain't that great and it ain't that good."

tom woods

Gym climber

Bishop, CA

Mar 19, 2010 - 01:54pm PT

I too quite enjoyed the hobo's dick cheese comment- I might steal that for for future use. Thanks Hank.

As for this topic- if the guy does go for El Cap, hopefully he keeps it quiet until it's done.

Hopefully he does it, or doesn't do it for his own reasons and not for the folks out here in the peanut gallery.

I wasn't climbing when Bachar was pushing solo standards back in the day, but even he would say that the Moritorium was not what soloing is about. Just cuz you can doesn't mean you should- might be the point. Merely surviving is not the standard.

Croft on Astroman- did people think this was crazy and a death wish?- Probably. Some probably still think that.

Ed is right about the consequences though. They are hefty. When you are young, or really focused, it is easier to ignore those consequences so perhaps the old guy's perspective is valuable and not "uncalled for."

rockermike

Trad climber

Berkeley

Mar 19, 2010 - 01:58pm PT

Big welcome Ed. Wonderful poet, gentle man, wise well beyond your years. Thanks for the important post. Whether Alex will listen or not is his call - but the elders have to speak up. I suspect the "camps" on this issue could be divided up on age alone. The youth do want more challenge and more glory. The graying know better.

That said, someone, someday is going to free-solo the nose. Don't know if the time is right.

Ed, I hope you stay around. Many here would appreciate your input, whether in verse or prose.

Ihateplastic

Trad climber

It ain't El Cap, Oregon

Mar 19, 2010 - 02:01pm PT

Drummond was doing pants-filling shite before many of us could fondle a nut.
A HUGE welcome!

Binks

Social climber

Mar 19, 2010 - 02:03pm PT

Do it Alex, do it if you wanna! Put the oldsters in their place in history!

The Larry

climber

Moab, UT

Mar 19, 2010 - 02:03pm PT

"Why didn't Lynn solo it?
Croft?
Bachar?"

Because they were never as strong as Alex?

Edge

Trad climber

New Durham, NH

Mar 19, 2010 - 02:03pm PT

I look at Ed's post as more of a cautionary warning from someone who has lived the climbing life and is passing on his wealth of knowledge to the next generation.

I admire that because as was noted up-thread, there are many other amazing climbers who left us too soon, and unfortunately for all of us, we can never hear their voices, posts, or wisdom again. Who knows what they would have added to the sport, or to the lives of their family and friends, had they not perished on their last climb.

I was a minor player on the edge team that lowered Werner some 600' down NA wall to rescue a roped soloing Ed Drummond in 1984(?), the same rescue that two Zodiac climbers were helped up and over. I remember how grateful Ed was to be safe after his ordeal, and thinking how fortunate I was to have an opportunity to meet and chat with him on our way up to the summit that night to camp.

Think about the wealth Ed has added since that day to the global climbing community, and what many lost when the Japanese who tried to top off the Nose during that same storm died during their brave struggle.

Ed's warning is cautionary, but I see it as loving as well, and given the source it makes me proud to be a climber.

Roger Breedlove

climber

Cleveland Heights, Ohio

Mar 19, 2010 - 02:12pm PT

Hi Ed,

I started a formal welcome to SuperTopo thread Welcome Ed Drummondso it is easy to spot. It may not be necessary since you seem to have hit a nerve with your telegram to Alex.

I have a picture above my work desk of Alex standing on "Thank God Ledge." It helps me ponder the imponderables: while I understand why climbers solo hard, I don't understand why anyone else thinks it is cool.

In some darkened corner of my mind, years ago, I remember you telling me, "Come my friend, we must all die. Why moan about it so."

Welcome to ST, verbal poet/warrior.

nature

climber

Tucson, AZ

Mar 19, 2010 - 02:16pm PT

This isn't directed at anyone directly...

The old will offer their wisdom while the youth will feign listening. It's a repetitive cycle. As time plods along its methodical course the youth will one day take the shoes of the old and offer their wisdom - and the cycle will repeat itself.

There stands a reasonable chance that if Alex does do the solo he will one day look back on it and think it was a stupid idea. He'll see his motivations. He'll see the true and meaningful ones and he'll see the deceit in the others. And one day he'll offer his wisdom, his opinion, oblivious to Ed's offering here. There is no hypocrisy in this. None. Just the cycle.

Bargainhunter

Mountain climber

Central California

Mar 19, 2010 - 02:19pm PT

One of the things that struck me in his movie of the Half Dome and Moonlight Buttress solos was his comment that each of his moves is "100% solid."

Unfortunately, the rock is not 100% solid. Bomber holds break, rockfall occurs. Imagine getting hit in the eyes or hand by during a crucial sequence by rockfall and not being able to see or use one hand...Scary!

Norwegian

Trad climber

Placerville, California

Mar 19, 2010 - 02:24pm PT

and SuperTopo is a place where expression of the joy or pain in ones heart resides...

nature, i concur.

i didn't mean that Ed should not share his caution. I only met that, though it makes sense within his heart, it may not make sense within alex.

r2d2

Trad climber

East Bay

Mar 19, 2010 - 02:25pm PT

There are two kinds of climbers, BOLD climbers or OLD climbers, not both.

Norwegian

Trad climber

Placerville, California

Mar 19, 2010 - 02:26pm PT

larry,
they didn't have the dream....

as in this particular dream.

gonzo chemist

climber

a crucible

Mar 19, 2010 - 02:31pm PT

It seems to me that if a warning and a plea is to be issued to A. Honnold and perhaps others who wish to cast off ropeless on such perilous adventures as free soloing big walls, then a warning and a plea needs to be issued to those who wish to head off into the big mountains.

How many perished last year in the mountains due to rockfall, avalanches, etc.? Heading out onto the vast flanks of snowy peaks can prove be a grim undertaking...

I don't wish to confuse the disciplines of free-soloing and mountaineering, but they both are admittedly dangerous; and a measure of consistency should be applied to any such appeal for rational fore-thought...

the Fet

climber

Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La

Mar 19, 2010 - 02:31pm PT

Great statement. Alex may or may not read it, but eloquently expressing his concern is thoughtful.

I can't begin to string words together like that but I would say to Alex:

* Make sure you are rock solid and confident in any climb your are going to free solo
* Do it for yourself, forget about everything else that motivates you and if you would do it without cameras or anyone else knowing about it, then still do it. Nothing wrong with cameras and publicity but you should do it because you want to challenge yourself, everyone else is just along for the ride.
* Think positive and confident going into it, but if things seem off, don't be resistant to backing off.
* Free soloing generates a lot of attention because it's badass. But don't let that detract from your other climbing accomplishments for yourself. Do what you want and let the people appreciate it how they want.

nature

climber

Tucson, AZ

Mar 19, 2010 - 02:37pm PT

There are two kinds of climbers, BOLD climbers or OLD climbers, not both.

That statement is illogical.

There are more than enough older climbers that are bold. Donini comes to mind. And with that there are more than enough young climbers not BOLD enough to sack up to what Jim has done in his life.... ever.

Essentially that logic states that if you are OLD you are not BOLD. it would then follow that if you are KNOTT OLD you are BOLD. And in the context our discussion here - Alex's BOLDness - how do you measure up?

That's that I thought.

Weegie.... got it!

Riley: I sent you a PM. Wanted to give you a call.

nature

climber

Tucson, AZ

Mar 19, 2010 - 02:41pm PT

A quick digression....

almost 60 posts in two hours and:
a) it's not a troll
b) it's 100% related to climbing

huh?

Edit: where's coz? ;-)

WBraun

climber

Mar 19, 2010 - 02:44pm PT

Doesn't matter jack sh'it what anyone says here or anywhere, as it's all talk.

When you're the climber ready to go, ... all your own internal psych and spirit will dictate what you will ultimately do or not do, regardless of all the chatter from the outside world.

jstan

climber

Mar 19, 2010 - 02:54pm PT

Life's greatest pleasure and reward is to take in a breath of good air, knowing nothing prevents another from following thereafter.

Nothing, least of all us, can keep another from thinking differently.

Our challenge is to go on undisturbed, whatever the outcome.

The expenditure - is not ours.

Brian in SLC

Social climber

Salt Lake City, UT

Mar 19, 2010 - 03:01pm PT

When you're the climber ready to go, ... all your own internal psych and spirit will dictate what you will ultimately do or not do, regardless of all the chatter from the outside world.

Sometimes makes one wonder if the chatter drives the internal psych a bit.

Funny, all these solo ascents aren't just whispered around a campfire as part of climbing lore. They're on video.

"Dream of White Horses" indeed! Just fondled my copy yesterday, in fact.

Cheers and welcome, Ed!!

Why the image of that fart from your El Cap solo is stuck in my head, I just can't figure out. Visual imagery or some such. Yikes!

-Brian in SLC
ps: Hank: I even pulled a quote from that book for our 'proj trivia. Too funny.

donini

Trad climber

Ouray, Colorado

Mar 19, 2010 - 03:07pm PT

Climbers are individualistic, anarchistic, loners who don't take direction very well. I've learned not to give out much advice unless requested.

karodrinker

Trad climber

San Jose, CA

Mar 19, 2010 - 03:44pm PT

Mr Edwin, what a pleasure. We climbed together at last years climb in at Sonora. A fine gentleman we have here folks.

Well written and well intentioned.

Does Alex ever post up here?

Fletcher

Trad climber

The beckoning silence

Mar 19, 2010 - 03:59pm PT

I have been thinking the same things that Nature has (no need for Team Popcorn™... yet!). Here is a post that is eloquently written from what seems a very genuine and heartfelt place. I don't think Ed means to impose his will and "tell" Alex what is right, wrong or something in between. It feels more like a request or even a plea to just consider what he's seen on his experienced path. Alex can consider, ignore, launch sh#t-bombs, etc. and then go do whatever he finds best in his own heart and soul.

It's about climbing (this thread)!

It's provocative!

Not everyone agrees, but folks are thoughtfully and intelligently and (dare I say it?) respectfully presenting their own thoughts and feelings and considering those of others. What fun!

Who'da thunk?

I like what Werner, jstan and Donini have to say. You guys are making me think today! To be honest, the OT stuff, which I choose to read or not read of my own free will, also makes me think and be inspired on occasion. But I can get that elsewhere too. This kind of thread is pretty unique to this kind of place.

And "hobos dickcheese".... Hank, you are a treasure! I am so grateful for all of your voices.

Eric

survival

Big Wall climber

A Token of My Extreme

Mar 19, 2010 - 04:01pm PT

Sometimes makes one wonder if the chatter drives the internal psych a bit.

Funny, all these solo ascents aren't just whispered around a campfire as part of climbing lore. They're on video.

This is part of the key question to me.
Even in Preuss's day, these guys didn't do this stuff inside a bubble.
People knew about it, talked about it, and watched when they could.

The idea that outside forces, attitudes, and input don't add to the soloists internal psych, drive and motivation....well...
I would bet he's got a little posse of friends/submen telling him "You can do it man!"

He's a nice mellow guy. But he allowed himself to be filmed on H.D.

Fame, sponsors, money, these are strong drugs that even Alex isn't immune to.

Even when I did the first solo of relatively minor Karate crack, I was driven by things beyond my own little purist zen state. I KNEW that people would hear about it.

How hard is the Great Roof? Changing Corners?

How many 5.12, 13, 14 pitches are there?

noal elkins

climber

Mar 19, 2010 - 04:20pm PT

At the recent Royal Robbins slideshow in San Carlos an audience member asked Royal what he foresaw in the future of climbing. His answer was ropeless ascents of El Capitan.

brotherbbock

Trad climber

Alta Loma, CA

Mar 19, 2010 - 04:21pm PT

I agree with Royal.......this is inevitable.

Peter Haan

Trad climber

San Francisco, CA

Mar 19, 2010 - 04:28pm PT

Drummond is an old climbing friend of mine from 35 years back. Although I have always enjoyed his wittiness and enjoyable command of english, in this particular case---his “Climb and Punishment” thread--- I actually do not enjoy it and find it sensationalistic and frankly crude and kooky. Repugnant even and melodramatic. I do understand others have different opinions of course on this.

It would be better if the thread were instead “A Letter to a Young Climber”--- you know that tradition: “Letter to a Young Poet” Rilke etc. and did not take to gnawing on Alex specifically. This way, Ed could go on in abstract and still cover his general subject, a corollary to the big question, can climbing justify its deaths. In fact it really is not any of our business and certainly not Ed’s, to be talking to Alex in this manner in a public forum. Alex above all of us certainly has the clearest picture what the hell he has been up to privately and publically and has shown himself to be extraordinary intelligent as well; he does not need to experience our worry-face baggage.

And it would have been better too, if we had instead just done an Ed Drummond appreciation thread rather than undergo this very strange shocking publicly-born depiction and prayer to someone of whom he hardly has a grasp. I am sure that many would like to converse with Ed here and indeed he can be a gas and he has been around! But for me it is weird---insulting even---and again, none of our damn business what Alex is planning in real detail.

Obviously soloing one of the routes on El Cap is on the minds of many young climbers as it could be the next step taken in climbing. Most everyone knows this is part of our view these days. But it really is not too much different from many solos that have gone before in the last 40 years, just a little bit harder in most cases, this is all. Once you are up more than say 75 feet, everything is an El Cap.

rectorsquid

climber

Lake Tahoe

Mar 19, 2010 - 04:29pm PT

When you're the climber ready to go, ... all your own internal psych and spirit will dictate what you will ultimately do or not do, regardless of all the chatter from the outside world.

Yep. No one ever took someone else's advice. We're lucky to be alive having never learned from the past or listened to those more wise than us.

It's BS. We all give advice daily and listen to or ignore advice just as often. Every action we take is a product of our environment and genetics. We process the chatter and when it's time to climb, it has a huge affect on our actions. We just want to be arrogant and deny that anyone else's opinions mattered.

And if this guy wants to publicly ask someone else to not take an extreme risk, that is his right. Only time will tell if his concern is justified but he cannot see the future to know. He must act on his own conscience and do what he thinks is right. Condemning him for being concerned about someone else's life? Dumb-asses must live here.

Dave

stevep

Boulder climber

Salt Lake, UT

Mar 19, 2010 - 04:31pm PT

Lot's of respect for Ed, and he is entirely entitled to his opinion. But..

1. Doubtful that Alex would attempt the Nose as a solo. Few people have done it period and there are some very insecure sections. Freerider would be the likely target.
2. I'd argue that given Alex's existing accomplishments, El Cap via Freerider wouldn't be any bigger a step then Croft doing Astroman. Maybe less in some ways.
3. If it is not Alex, it will be someone else sooner or later. Never in history have people stopped pushing boundaries because of what some in earlier generations have thought.

Port

Trad climber

San Diego

Mar 19, 2010 - 04:32pm PT

Survival, I believe that the great roof is 5.13 and changing corners is 5.14-. But I don't think that the nose will see the first free solo. It seems like free rider (12d) or salathe (5.13b) are more likely.

graham

Social climber

Ventura, California

Mar 19, 2010 - 04:33pm PT

Hello Ed,

Nice post.

I like what Roger Breedlove said

while I understand why climbers solo hard, I don't understand why anyone else thinks it is cool.

AND I liked what Bachar always said.

Always use a rope

Nothing left for me to say...

Mike

drljefe

climber

Old Pueblo, AZ

Mar 19, 2010 - 04:38pm PT

brother Hank,
didn't think you'd require a smiley face...
it was your "hobo dickcheese" comment ONLY that was next level. NEXT LEVEL IMAGERY.
The rest of your post I agree with.
Chill bruddah. fer realz.

klk

Trad climber

cali

Mar 19, 2010 - 04:54pm PT

I don't know Ed. Read his essays before they got collected into that book, and he was one of the authors important in changing climbing's literary culture as well as an important climber.

The post just adds to the sideshow atmosphere. I have no idea if Honnold is seriously planning an El Cap solo (let alone The Nose), but the post as written is going to crank up the peanut gallery for hand-wringing, ranting, and whatever. Worse, since so many STers are also Yos adjacent, it might drive even more groundmonkeys out into the Meadows. Certainly it does nothing to demystify the spectacle.

Eventually, I suppose El Cap Meadows will be our version of Kleine Scheidegg 1938, but without the bad weather and all that unfortunate Nazi business.

I agree with Peter-- this post would have been at least as effective and less problematic had it been couched in generic terms.

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber

Toquerville, Utah

Mar 19, 2010 - 05:01pm PT

I hope Alex Honnold is NOT reading this. The free solos are inspirational, but really must come from within.
I kind of agree with Ed though (hi Ed, we met at the base of El Cap), but after all, this is just the taco, a bunch of codgers cutting farts and arguing about which wine is best served with hobo dickcheese.

nature

climber

Tucson, AZ

Mar 19, 2010 - 05:59pm PT

I refuse to slice hobo dickcheese sashimi.

Might it be mistaken for wasabi?

slidingmike

climber

Mar 19, 2010 - 06:06pm PT

Some parts of this discussion remind of one of my favorite songs by the great Cat: Father & Son

It's not time to make a change,
Just relax, take it easy.
You're still young, that's your fault,
There's so much you have to know.
Find a girl, settle down,
If you want you can marry.
Look at me, I am old, but I'm happy.

I was once like you are now, and I know that it's not easy,
To be calm when you've found something going on.
But take your time, think a lot,
Why, think of everything you've got.
For you will still be here tomorrow, but your dreams may not.

//How can I try to explain, when I do he turns away again.
It's always been the same, same old story.
From the moment I could talk I was ordered to listen.
Now there's a way and I know that I have to go away.
I know I have to go.//

It's not time to make a change,
Just sit down, take it slowly.
You're still young, that's your fault,
There's so much you have to go through.
Find a girl, settle down,
if you want you can marry.
Look at me, I am old, but I'm happy.
//(Away Away Away, I know I have to
Make this decision alone - no)//

//All the times that I cried, keeping all the things I knew inside,
It's hard, but it's harder to ignore it.
If they were right, I'd agree, but it's them They know not me.
Now there's a way and I know that I have to go away.
I know I have to go.//
(Stay Stay Stay, Why must you go and
make this decision alone?)

Studly

Trad climber

Mar 19, 2010 - 06:19pm PT

sung to the words above.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jek6iP6AuAQ

Ksolem

Trad climber

Monrovia, California

Mar 19, 2010 - 06:26pm PT

This is interesting. I really took interest, with some discomfort, in Drummond's post (I say this knowing that some discomfort was likely intentional on his part.) Peter Haan kind of summarized my feelings too, but there are two things he says which I take issue with...

I think it is questionable that free soloing El Cap is the next logical development in climbing or should be viewed as such. It would certainly be amazing, but a logical development? I'll be more impressed by a free ascent of Mescalito.

After 75 feet "everything is El Cap?" If that were the case then the first free solo would be old news...

cintune

climber

the Moon and Antarctica

Mar 19, 2010 - 06:38pm PT

Agree with Ksolem, was going to post up much the same. Logical steps in climbing are made possible by advances in gear; free soloing by its very nature is regressive. Apart from the potential fame and fortune of success, going up El Cap ropeless would remain a one-off stunt. How long would it be until it was repeated, and would it ultimately be anything more than vertical NASCAR?

Mighty Hiker

climber

Vancouver, B.C.

Mar 19, 2010 - 06:40pm PT

Perhaps the most interesting and challenging, and poetic, first post ever to grace SuperTopo.

As I read it, Ed isn't saying to Alex "Don't solo" or even "don't solo El Cap". What he seems to be saying, to me, is that before doing anything of the sort Alex should carefully consider everything about it, and if he feels a need to do it, should only do it for himself. That is, pay no attention whatsoever to the real or imagined 'needs' of sponsors, the news media, the community, or others. Absolutely none. Just himself and his family. I've read a lot of what Ed has written, and met him a few times. He doesn't seem the sort who, even as a warrior of yesteryear, would say "don't solo".

It's notable that when Peter Croft was the first to solo Astroman, in 1987, no one knew he was doing it, or saw him. He did it solely for himself, and if I remember the story rightly, the first person he talked to about it was JB at the deli, afterward.

stevep

Boulder climber

Salt Lake, UT

Mar 19, 2010 - 06:42pm PT

Logical steps in climbing are made possible by advances in gear

??

I don't think we have gotten from 5.10-5.14 solely by gear alone. In fact, gear has had little to do with it. Better training and new techniques have had a much bigger impact.

WBraun

climber

Mar 19, 2010 - 06:50pm PT

He's saying it for sure; ("don't solo El Cap"), in a veiled subconscious way.

There's no doubt.

Nothing wrong with that at all and it's just plain good ole human nature.

I wish someone would solo El Cap to put everyone in their place.

I don't agree with all this bullsh'it you have to do these things secretly and not have a camera and no one should be watching, etc etc etc.

Blah ........ why everyone so envious and jealous?

Because ....... of nihilism?

cintune

climber

the Moon and Antarctica

Mar 19, 2010 - 06:53pm PT

Logical steps in climbing are made possible by advances in gear

??

I don't think we have gotten from 5.10-5.14 solely by gear alone. In fact, gear has had little to do with it. Better training and new techniques have had a much bigger impact.

Yep, true, was thinking along the lines of shoes and clean pro, but how much in the way of training and technique is really going to lead to a new generation of big-wall free soloists? [If not for ropes and gear to hang from, how many of those new techniques would have evolved at all?]

Ultimately it's the same old fundamental ethics of climbing at all question, pressed to the most extreme possible set of circumstances "Climb if you will, but remember, etc."

rockermike

Trad climber

Berkeley

Mar 19, 2010 - 07:04pm PT

oh man, even this great thread is turning negative. I generally try to stay quiet in such controversies, but if anything personally I found Peter H's comment way off base. I find Ed's OP a statement from deep affection and coming from deep experience with life. If only ST had more wisdom like his. So speaking from the heart is now "sensationalistic, kooky, and repugnant". For myself I find such shallow critique to be repugnant - kind of ruined my day.

Lets keep in mind, Alex made a movie of his solos. While I hesitantly admire what he's done he certainly can't expect to remain incognito when his feats of daring are plastered all over youtube. The Telegram was no doubt addressed to Honnold, but obviously applies to everyone and anyone who take extreme risks.

tolman_paul

Trad climber

Anchorage, AK

Mar 19, 2010 - 07:12pm PT

I agree with the sentiment that one should push themselves, not be pushed to push the line.

As far as next logical development, heck climbing isn't logical at al. For whatever reason, I do see a free solo of El Cap as a milestone that is the next step of opening minds to what is possible. I don't know why this is so, as obviously cratering from El Cap will kill one just as sure as cratering off of Half Dome. But I detect from others comments that there is a similar feeling of, free soloing El Cap, no way man.

Perhaps it's the concern not so much that it isn't possible, but that someone would break the boundry of what we consider impossible. It's nice to think that there are still some challenges that are not only beyond us, but beyond all. And when that breakthrough occurs, to where all will be possible with enough commitment, training and willingness to risk it, well, in a way that is a shame.

Gene

Social climber

Mar 19, 2010 - 07:14pm PT

Mighty Hiker & Rockermike,

You get it. Look at Ed’s phrases:

Paparazzi
audiences everywhere
the invisible camera man
stunned by the guffaws of the audiences
a free, un-roped solo climb of El Capitan would provide them with a feast of fear, a pornographic center-fold
sufficiently sick to sate the violence consumer
Not your billboard, big screen, pedestal or headstone
The Honorable Order of the Deck Chairs

Keep your feet on the ground Alex, think about the children following in your footsteps…

Those children aren’t the biological progeny of Alex.

Alex is a metaphor for action without honest consideration of consequence. I take Ed's telegram to be about motive, not action.

El Cap free solo will be done.
g

reddirt

climber

Mar 19, 2010 - 07:35pm PT

hehe, I too was making a mental list of my fav quotes from this thread.

I wish someone would solo El Cap to put everyone in their place.

takes the cake

OMG I've become one of those what-Werner-said people.

Fletcher

Trad climber

The beckoning silence

Mar 19, 2010 - 07:44pm PT

Didn't James T. Kirk solo something on El Cap? Oh that's right, he fell... OK, got that out of the way. :-) I looked for the video, but couldn't find it. But I don't think that would add to this thread anyway.

I don't necessarily think this thread is going negative. There's conflict, disagreement, yes. But I'm just seeing a range of views and pretty much all are thoughtful and well stated. I keep seeing new perspectives and am enjoying the process of the discussion getting hashed out.

Eric

bmacd

Trad climber

Beautiful, BC

Mar 19, 2010 - 07:48pm PT

Werner you stated a while back that freerider has been soloed already, by someone wishing no recognition for the deed ... i believed you but guess it's not the case

Honnolds doing it for the cameras, Croft wasn't like that

this will end badly

klk

Trad climber

cali

Mar 19, 2010 - 08:02pm PT

People have been soloing in front of movie cameras since Leni Riefenstahl directed Das Blaue Licht. Ueli's going to solo Metanoia for Jeff Lowe's movie. We've seen movies of any number of European stars on rad solos in the Alps.

Saying that one should solo only for oneself is essentially saying that no one should be a professional climber. Many of us may long for the good old days of dirtbags and trustfunders, but the age of the amateur is over.

Moreover, for the new gen, video is no different than stills were for the oldsters. My students video themselves doing absolutely everything, even when there's no chance anyone will pay them.

WBraun

climber

Mar 19, 2010 - 08:04pm PT

Maybe maybe not who knows. Do you know what providence holds?

If the man falls off then next life he'll return to try and finish the task again?

All kinds of insects/frogs/critters, free solo on El Cap daily ..........

David Knopp

Trad climber

Mar 19, 2010 - 08:08pm PT

Cat Stevens?

WTF?

WBraun

climber

Mar 19, 2010 - 08:10pm PT

Rodents .......

okie

Trad climber

San Leandro, Ca

Mar 19, 2010 - 08:12pm PT

Yeah, what Werner said...lol!
One time I watched Werner soloing at Arch Rock. On the crux section at the top of English Breakfast Crack his movements did not seem fluid, kinda jerky and it made me nervous to watch. But he probably was in total control and the fear was entirely mine, not his...at all.
Like Tom Woods said, just surviving should not be the standard. Isn't the ultimate standard the climber themself as best protection?
Life and death are equal. A climber could solo a hard route in total control, never in danger and then get the chop driving home to his family.

WBraun

climber

Mar 19, 2010 - 08:16pm PT

So ....?

The moral of the story?

Don't drive home .......

klk

Trad climber

cali

Mar 19, 2010 - 08:22pm PT

hahahahahahaha

werner's on a roll

survival

Big Wall climber

A Token of My Extreme

Mar 19, 2010 - 08:29pm PT

I thought Peter's post was at least as distasteful as Ed's.

Next logical step? Maybe. For a select few.

Kind of like running it out on the back of Half Dome. But then rap bolting for a "safe" route that would become the new classic, became the next step.

Mtnmun

Trad climber

Top of the Mountain Mun

Mar 19, 2010 - 08:31pm PT

Does Alex have children? That should be the deciding factor. Everything else is up to Alex.

If you have minor children who depend on you, you have no business soloing.

Elcapinyoazz

Social climber

Redlands

Mar 19, 2010 - 08:43pm PT

Honnolds doing it for the cameras, Croft wasn't like that

Don't let facts get in the way of your narrative.

Painted Spider: 7min of Croft soloing the Rostrum
Tips: well published photo of Croft soloing up (then back down) this classic fingercrack.
There are others, pics soloing Red Zinger, and probably a lot more that I don't know off the top of my head. And I don't mean that as a knock on Croft in any way, shape, or form.

elcap-pics

climber

Crestline CA

Mar 19, 2010 - 08:59pm PT

the lad has a wonderful mother... does her feelings count?

Hardman Knott

Gym climber

Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca

Mar 19, 2010 - 09:03pm PT

If you have minor children who depend on you, you have no business soloing.

Word
(and then some; "depend on you" goes way beyond financial support)...

okie

Trad climber

San Leandro, Ca

Mar 19, 2010 - 09:29pm PT

Or don't solo, Ha Ha! Whatever, Death is still waiting...Yeah, It's all about choices...until it's not anymore.
Enjoy it while ya got it.

bmacd

Trad climber

Beautiful, BC

Mar 19, 2010 - 10:38pm PT

Honnolds doing it for the cameras, Croft wasn't like that

Don't let facts get in the way of your narrative.

To clarify my statement, Croft didn't arrange for film coverage for his first solo of Astroman, like Honnold did for Halfdome. Whatever ... obviously things are different now

Soloists choose death to be an option, who are we to judge. Ask Bachar or check some of his final posts for insights.

Tarbuster

climber

right here, right now

Mar 19, 2010 - 10:47pm PT

Touché Ed Drummond!

I am loving this: a provocative entreaty, spurring discussion which fractures out in all measure of direction.
(Free soloing for me runs deep; primal, instinctive, tribal … yes, but unyielding to discursive cultural narrative).

In my naiveté, my Pollyanna ways of absorbing intent and divining abstruse directives, I took Ed’s whole piece as a lush entertainment, poetically assaying the complexion of the times as they stand, here, now, today: dedicated to Alex only in so far as he is the current holder of highest suspicion upon said deed.

I read this thing, in short, as do most: just as I wanted to.
… And enjoyed it very much !!!

Welcome do the forum Ed!
-Roy

Bullwinkle

Boulder climber

Mar 19, 2010 - 10:50pm PT

Yikes Ed, laying it on a bit thick don't you think? made me laugh. . .So I guess your post wasn't a complete waste of time. . .

MH2

climber

Mar 20, 2010 - 02:10am PT

Whew! If Alex can't handle his own life, then I'm greatly mistaken. I saw that movie, too, and he sounded genuine and smart. Of course, trouble is, as he said so rightly, the motivation to do something like he's done is huge, if you can handle it. Against that urge you have to keep a really clear mind and gauge your chances.

I'm sympathetic for his Mom.

Anything Ed Drummond says is going to be worth saying, but this may just be a generational divide.

Send

climber

Earth

Mar 20, 2010 - 09:10am PT

It seems to me that the OP'ers poetry sounds more like high school gossip in the girls locker room. Ed, did you talk to Alex yourself about his plan to solo the Nose?

If not, just leave the guy alone and let him make his own decisions.

I'm not going to post up on dirtbikers.com and tell somebody to stop riding cause I gotta 'feeling'.

Roger Breedlove

climber

Cleveland Heights, Ohio

Mar 20, 2010 - 10:08am PT

Ed, if you are reading along, have you noticed how varied the responses are to your post, from the literal up and down voting on Alex' right to solo, the sensibility of you telling him to stop, to a few readers who took the piece from a step back in which Alex' soloing is just the structure of your reflections of how soloing fits into a life.

I think this sort of instant feedback across a wide range of perspectives is a unique feature of 'publishing' on a forum. I think it is sort of cool.

nature

climber

Tucson, AZ

Mar 20, 2010 - 10:23am PT

Roger... you left out there part where a widely published and highly regarded writer's english is criticized.

Roger Breedlove

climber

Cleveland Heights, Ohio

Mar 20, 2010 - 10:34am PT

Sully: I think Ed's prose style is mostly poetic images that get strung together in loose sentences. What he wrote here is not edited. I think that if it had suited him, the images, the word associations and play, the disjointed linking of several histories, and whatever Ed means by "And She will find you." would fit together nicely.

Nature: Ed's piece is a little rough; more speaking style than written. But for Ed, that is a matter of choice: Ed knows how to write any way he wants and has been doing it for a long time.

Two of the most interesting observations about ST is that almost all of the posters can write clear prose, and those who struggle, for whatever reason, are usually not criticized. It seems to be a self selection criterion.

aaronjones

climber

Mar 20, 2010 - 11:12am PT

suck a phat 1

tom woods

Gym climber

Bishop, CA

Mar 20, 2010 - 11:16am PT

Fletcher- I heard that after James T. Kirk fell, he came back the next day and finished the thing off with out the cameras and the annoying guy asking if the climb was logical.

PS- this drummond guy, who I don't know, can really write.

Wade Icey

Trad climber

www.alohashirtrescue.com

Mar 20, 2010 - 11:29am PT

Everything I've read by Mr Drummound has been well worth my time. OP included. Hard to object to any trace of literacy hereabouts.

the kid

Trad climber

fayetteville, wv

Mar 20, 2010 - 11:52am PT

Ed,
fantastic post and very telling of the changes the sport has gone through.
I too sometimes feel as if the modern media world drives this bus of over extreme exposure on all levels (think tiger woods etc)...

solo climbing should be all that- solo. when the camera and or video comes along it changes the game... now i am calling the kettle black here as i have solo pictures with me and JB simu solo..but... at some point it could get ugly...

Hankster- Ed is solid old school and a bad ass in his day. I remember his solo attempt of N. A wall and the epic storms he went through. I find his prowse to be complimentary as well and call to see Alex find a long happy life in climbing. Current path may not lead to that, but if it makes him happy...

smith/cosgrove 2012
soloing since 1980...

Tahoe climber

climber

Davis these days

Mar 20, 2010 - 12:03pm PT

I think, like watching someone's climbing style, that watching everyone's response to the OP tells a lot about them, and not that much about anything else.

Some are conservative and careful, but lack vision.
Some are balls-out go for it, but w/o planning for the future.
I'd bet the lives and climbing style of each is similar.

Meanwhile, on the topic itself: I think it's none of anyone's business if he does it. Alex is rad and smart and he should live his life - short or long - just the way he damn well pleases.
It is, at least, an interesting climbing topic, and not the other side of the Supertopo coin.

I also agreed with Hank and Werner.

And most of all, I agreed with Donini: "Climbers are individualistic, anarchistic, loners who don't take direction very well. I've learned not to give out much advice unless requested."

TC

climber

Mar 20, 2010 - 12:34pm PT

Nice entrance.

Welcome to the fry Ed.

Jay Wood

Trad climber

Fairfax, CA

Mar 20, 2010 - 01:04pm PT

At his presentation to the RIM club, Alex said that that scene on thanksgiving ledge was kind of staged. That he was taking a breather, wasn't gripped, but there were some other crux moments on the climb.

Studly

Trad climber

Mar 20, 2010 - 01:19pm PT

What about the hobo?

survival

Big Wall climber

A Token of My Extreme

Mar 20, 2010 - 01:25pm PT

I think he does care what others think about his climbing.
He's too nice of a guy not to.

Everyone, almost to a man cares about what others think, at least a little.

If he didn't care what others thought, he wouldn't have had cameras along on HD.

And "staging" on one of the biggest free solos of all time?

Lambone

Ice climber

Ashland, Or

Mar 20, 2010 - 01:26pm PT

You sound like his mom.

Lambone

Ice climber

Ashland, Or

Mar 20, 2010 - 02:05pm PT

Yeah but do we need more than one?

survival

Big Wall climber

A Token of My Extreme

Mar 20, 2010 - 02:19pm PT

Uh, yeah we do, babyface....

Lambone

Ice climber

Ashland, Or

Mar 20, 2010 - 02:27pm PT

I dunno...I don't think so.

When I read they OP, I got the impression that it seemed to assume Alex as some foolish kid climbing on a whim. I've met Alex in the valley and he's very much an adult who climbs with intention.

Leave him be, imho. If soloing El Cap is what he wants for his life, then so be it. Maybe for some people it IS worth dying for.

Patrick Sawyer

climber

Originally California now Ireland

Mar 20, 2010 - 04:09pm PT

um, what's a Friend?

jstan

climber

Mar 20, 2010 - 06:04pm PT

I must say. It is a beautiful day today.

Brock

Trad climber

RENO, NV

Mar 20, 2010 - 10:03pm PT

I don't mind reading about it (whether it occurs successful or in death). I do feel it is wrong to have it filmed. Nor should it be anounced prior to any attempt. It should be between Arnold and the rock. Would love to watch the film of such an event, but would hate to see someone fall to their death too. (this was edited thanks to WBraun noting my lack of attention to my writing).

There needs to be prior attention to making sure he is not in the falling line of anyone below him in case he should pitch. I would be pissed if he was soloing above me.

Would there be consequences for future roped climbers from the Yosemite rangers if such a stunt ends badly (unlikely, but maybe)?

Interesting forum.

WBraun

climber

Mar 20, 2010 - 10:18pm PT

"I do feel it is wrong to have it filmed and announced prior to any attempt."

How does one film a free solo before an attempt?

Lambone

Ice climber

Ashland, Or

Mar 20, 2010 - 10:40pm PT

Sorry but I pretty much think every point it Brock's post above is a crock of sh#t.

First who cares if he wants to be filmed. He makes a living off his climbing. The stakes are different. It's not like he's the first to be filmed pushing the limits. Who are you to tell him his style is wrong? In the same breath you say you want to watch but think it's wrong. Which is it?

Second, "falling line?" Are you serious? Look any time you choose to climb under someone you assume the risk of objective hazards falling from above, be it rocks, gear or bodies. What's he gunna do post a sign at the base?

Third, consequences from the NPS from him falling while being filmed??? WTF? LOL! Yeah maybe they will ban climbing because it's dangerous. Or make video cameras illegal along with power drills!

Again sorry to bust you balls Brock, but put down the bong brah, cause yer high.

Jeremy Handren

climber

Mar 20, 2010 - 11:08pm PT

Jeez Ed...coming from the man who did LInden?

you're the last guy who should be wagging his finger at someone who winds his neck out on occasion.

Brock

Trad climber

RENO, NV

Mar 20, 2010 - 11:16pm PT

Every one has an as#@&%e, everyone has an opinion. Think I will take my chances with some one climbing with a rope above me rather than someone freesoloing a 5.13 above me. BTW...I don't smoke the stuff.

labrat

Trad climber

Nevada City, CA

Mar 20, 2010 - 11:26pm PT

The filming for the movie occurred after Alex did the climbs people!

Sorry, I believe the "staged" and "Honnold doing it for the cameras" and "Croft didn't arrange film coverage after his first solo of Astroman, like Honnold did for Half dome" talk needed to be clarified.

I think he does climbs for himself. He has nothing to prove.

Erik

Brock

Trad climber

RENO, NV

Mar 20, 2010 - 11:33pm PT

I think the guy is an incredible climber. I don't think soloing is a thing of "something to prove." I have nothing against Alex, as I am sure he is a great person. I respect the mental capacity and physical capability that it takes to freesolo a route, but I guess I don't fully understand risking your life for it.

jstan

climber

Mar 20, 2010 - 11:53pm PT

Even though now dark, it is still a very nice day out there.

Chief

climber

Mar 21, 2010 - 12:12am PT

Ed Drummond on ST.. cool.
The mere thought of the Changing Corners unroped almost made me fall off the last time I was there. Hats off to Peter, Dean and Alex for that kind of composure. Moonlight Buttress and NW Half Dome unroped?
You just don't want to see that kind of pushing it end badly like it often does. I still haven't seen a climb worth dying for.

Lambone

Ice climber

Ashland, Or

Mar 21, 2010 - 01:29am PT

"suck a phat 1"

lol
I just read all the posts in this thread and Aaron's is my favorite. Spoken like a true Monkey.

Other then that I'm pretty much with Werner and Peter Hann.

After watching Tommy work those Changing corners moves on video I think you'd have to be an idiot to solo the Nose.

Chinchen

climber

Anacortes, wa

Mar 21, 2010 - 04:46am PT

Ed, welcome. Thank you for getting everyone to talk about climbing for a change, and thank you for caring.

Tarbuster

climber

right here, right now

Mar 21, 2010 - 11:19am PT

Lambone say:

"After watching Tommy work those Changing corners moves on video I think you'd have to be an idiot to solo the Nose."

To me this is the most obvious giveaway, plausible deniability if you like, that the OP is not to be taken completely literally, it IS couched in generic terms, as KLK said it could/should have been. (Though it is quite sincere in its general appeal concerning free soloing, but proposed in a veiled subconscious way, as Werner said). The Nose is simply not on the block currently, while Free Rider certainly is and to that end we have fertile ground for discussion.

Yet, knowing full well how it feels when completely solid in cordless mode, (and suspecting Dean's well grounded understanding of Alex) I loved Bullwinkle's response:

"Yikes Ed, laying it on a bit thick don't you think? made me laugh. . .So I guess your post wasn't a complete waste of time. . . "

I enjoyed Dean's words, because, as Werner stated:

"Doesn't matter jack sh'it what anyone says here or anywhere, as it's all talk.

When you're the climber ready to go, ... all your own internal psych and spirit will dictate what you will ultimately do or not do, regardless of all the chatter from the outside world."

There are some details concerning other components of this discussion which have been brought forward, which relate to the core of Mr. Drummond's offering. That is, the community at large was not expecting, anticipating a free solo of New Dimensions, Nabisco Wall, or Astroman. Maybe The Rostrum.

Things have changed ...

Rich.

Roger Breedlove

climber

Cleveland Heights, Ohio

Mar 21, 2010 - 12:21pm PT

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"An electrifying sport for participants and spectators alike."

"You want crashes? You like a sport where the winner might well be the last one standing?"

Elevated Giant Slalom will be the sport to watch in 2014.

What is Elevated Giant Slalom?

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survival

Big Wall climber

A Token of My Extreme

Mar 21, 2010 - 12:30pm PT

"Yikes Ed, laying it on a bit thick don't you think? made me laugh. . .So I guess your post wasn't a complete waste of time. . . "

Funny as hell til someone pitches into space from up there.....

Yet, knowing full well how it feels when completely solid in cordless mode

But how many people will EVER be solid on 5.14 Changing Corners?

About the same number of people stepping up to repeat Southern Belle I'd wager.

Things have changed ...

Hitting the ground hasn't changed.

cintune

climber

the Moon and Antarctica

Mar 21, 2010 - 12:30pm PT

Lambone: What's he gunna do post a sign at the base?

Tarbuster

climber

right here, right now

Mar 21, 2010 - 12:35pm PT

Good one Roger.
Remember Rollerball?

Roger Breedlove

climber

Cleveland Heights, Ohio

Mar 21, 2010 - 12:38pm PT

Which leads to the obvious Elevated Giant Slalom Cross event scheduled for the 2018 Olympics.

survival

Big Wall climber

A Token of My Extreme

Mar 21, 2010 - 12:41pm PT

I will be impressed as anyone if and when it gets done.

All I'm saying is that there is a limit to what the human form can do, and especially what the sponsors or the "community" thinks is the next step.

No one will ever dyno from the Grand Terrace of Half Dome and catch the visor, nor should we be encouraging the young bulls to try it.

I'm all for pushing the limits, but don't want to see guys dying trying to follow Alex's steps.

Hey Ed, are you too aloof to come back to the party you started?

Mighty Hiker

climber

Vancouver, B.C.

Mar 21, 2010 - 01:17pm PT

One OP = 159 responses. A good discussion. Hopefully Edwin will drop by again and add to his remarks.

Swami Jr.

Trad climber

Bath, NY

Mar 21, 2010 - 01:25pm PT

amen mighty hiker. Great post, great discussion. Ed knows what he knows, and Alex as well. Probably both are right even if they're in disagreement. I guess the best we can all hope for is that climbing is on a path we are proud of.

bmacd

Trad climber

Beautiful, BC

Mar 21, 2010 - 01:46pm PT

There is an unacknowledged optional component of the leading edge soloists arsenal. It's called the backup party. I played this role for Croft and Fraser when they did the first cordless ascent of West Buttress of the South Howser Spire in the Bugaboos. (Chouinard Beckey route). There were 4 of us on the route that day, including the soloists, each well aware of the others, yet separated by an hour or two on the line.

Upon reflecting this thread, it's clear to me that Honnold is far smarter than Ed Drummond gives him credit for. What better way to incorporate the “backup party” failsafe plan into the ascent than to disguise them as the documentary film team.

It's also clear that Freerider is the prize of the next generation soloist. Quite simply there would be no smarter plan, than to plant Sender Films camera men AND supplies like water, food and bivy gear all over the route. The soloist would not even have to do the route in a single day to achieve a cordless ascent. Better to rest a night on a ledge before those steep upper pitches.

Recall in the Half Dome film, Honnold isn't even wearing a camelback. He's set a precedent for cordless ascents, and it's been accepted.

I think Honnold knows what Honnold is doing, better than anyone. He has plenty of resources at his disposal, including the “backup party”. He's a brilliant climber and also a crafty logistician .....

The appearance of doing it "for the cameras" is the viewers perspective, to Honnold they are part of his team.

It's a new genre, "supported cordless" ascents, which has cracked open the grade VI's. Ironically it's been enabled by video production.

Bravo Alex !

Roger Breedlove

climber

Cleveland Heights, Ohio

Mar 21, 2010 - 01:49pm PT

John's backup party got to him while he was still alive.

Melissa

Gym climber

berkeley, ca

Mar 21, 2010 - 02:01pm PT

Caughtinside: "Yes, let's tell people how they should climb."

Consumers of sports entertainment do that every time they endorse someone's latest and greatest with their purchase of the footage. When you approve of someone's radness, you're kinda telling them what to do same as when you disapprove.

I don't know nothin' about Alex, but it doesn't hurt his bottom line as a pro climber to have a Taco thread critical or otherwise of his deeds and plans.

Studly

Trad climber

Mar 21, 2010 - 02:31pm PT

hard unroped solo climbing is by its very nature a personal affirmation of confidence and ability in yourself. What other people say, media, photographers, etc., have no bearing.

Melissa

Gym climber

berkeley, ca

Mar 21, 2010 - 02:37pm PT

"What other people say, media, photographers, etc., have no bearing."

Perhaps for some, but everyone I know rolls a little bit differently when they know they are being judged, for better or worse. If media had no bearing, media wouldn't be part of it. Have you ever gone to work when you didn't feel like it?

Or maybe I read you wrong, and you are saying that solo climbing involves one person?

Roger Breedlove

climber

Cleveland Heights, Ohio

Mar 21, 2010 - 02:46pm PT

I tried to find online the video that Ed had seen. I found a trailer for the Moonlight Buttress solo, in which Cedar Wright has a voice over, "Free soloing is the ultimate, most pure form of rock climbing known to man."

I have always objected to this idea that hard free soloing is the ultimate form of rock climbing (Royal started down that path in the early 70s), in the same way that I object to the fastest ascent or hardest sport climb are the ultimate form of climbing. I cannot think of any direct statements from free soloists that they think they are somehow defining the ultimate form of rock climbing; they all seem to take a more private view of their motivations. But in reading the comments posted on the site with the Moonlight Buttress trailer, Cedar's notion seems to be accepted.

It also seems to me that Alex is implicitly promoting that notion. Of course Alex is free to climb anyway he wants and free to make a living selling his skills to video makers. But I cannot image a sane person not grounding their actions within an inclusive view of what others think. Alex is promoting hard free soloing for all the reasons that he cares about.

Norwegian

Trad climber

Placerville, California

Mar 21, 2010 - 04:00pm PT

im sure that the rewards and the potential rewards explode in beautiful feelings within alex.

we shant piss on his fire.

jstan

climber

Mar 21, 2010 - 04:21pm PT

Each person who thinks it makes a difference whether something has been done unroped, by thinking this, encourages someone to attempt it.

This entire thread, including Drummond's OP is a de facto promotion of such an act.

I can understand a person deciding they want to go unroped.

I can't understand how a bystander could be willing to encourage others to do this.

On a slightly different subject.

The NPS prohibits base jumping because it is not an appropriate use of the Park, however that is determined.

Ask yourself, why that question will not arise as regards climbing should there be a frankly shocking high profile incident.

Norwegian

Trad climber

Placerville, California

Mar 21, 2010 - 04:25pm PT

the only significant difference is who alex becomes in his own heart, his own eyes, and his own mind.

we, the specatators, receive only a fraction of that, on the periphery of his accomplishments, and / or failures.

he encourages me to dream.
there, he has succeeded.

Norwegian

Trad climber

Placerville, California

Mar 21, 2010 - 04:50pm PT

it seems that folks need to proceed with their nightmares.
let alex go forth with his dreams, please.

...
i was going to stop and think,
but instead i chose to dream.

Melissa

Gym climber

berkeley, ca

Mar 21, 2010 - 04:55pm PT

How do you know what is his dream or his nightmare? What you really care about are your own.

taorock

Trad climber

Okanogan, WA

Mar 21, 2010 - 04:57pm PT

Good heavens. ED's comments are no different than what everyone has experienced from the old guard. Good thing too. I remember pissing off knicker and boot clad climbers when I wore tennis shoes and shorts on talus slopes. In defiance we started running down them with our hands in our pockets. Yet it was a knicker clad oldster who taught me the ropes (thanks Mr. Munger).

We are fortunate to be in an activity (sport, passion, profession) where old and young are mixed, as well as the well off and dirtbags; educated and not. I would hope that Mr. H is wise enough to listen to ED's statements. Doesn't mean he needs to follow them.

We really don't climb in a vacuum or without the benefit of those pioneers that came before. IMO, to the extent that Mr. H's drive is powered by the spotlight of bystanders is the proportion lending legitimacy to ED's statements. If Mr H is soloing for his own reasons, I'm fine with it. I just object to the overt marketing of climbing in general. There is the rub, it is rather subjective especially seeing as I have soloed myself - although never at my climbing limit (except for a highball boulder problem or two;-)

The younger generation seems to have a whole different view of documentation and expression than I have. Likely a generational divide. I've viewed the video's of soloists wearing a cam on their helmet and quite enjoyed them, but I just don't have it in me to be a bystander/audience/filmer to the making of an extreme solo. I've seen enough gore in my life, thank you. I don't watch auto races either and prefer uncrowded backwater crags as well.

Go with grace all involved,

tao

10b4me

Ice climber

Ice Caves at the Sads

Mar 21, 2010 - 05:29pm PT

once again, Werner hits the nail on the head.

Norwegian

Trad climber

Placerville, California

Mar 21, 2010 - 05:30pm PT

nightmares equal fears.

dreams equal vision.

let yours, and my, and sir alex's life proceed by their own design.

melissa dear,
you may drop your dave turner borne grudge with me.
i've grown beyond that experience.

have you please,

i care about melissa and alex and ed drummond and the angels in between us.

you don't know what i care about.

spry girl.

your current vision between us is blinded by anger and angst. you'll not see clearly til you let that go.

sincerely,
the dumb asse.

Melissa

Gym climber

berkeley, ca

Mar 21, 2010 - 06:21pm PT

My Dave Turner what? I think you're confusing me with someone else.

Tarbuster

climber

right here, right now

Mar 21, 2010 - 10:27pm PT

Debating the pros and cons of free soloing isn’t what I find interesting, or particularly revealing in this type of conversation, because those stances and their merits are patently obvious to me (how people go about debating it is revealing, however).

Debate doesn’t really seek to reveal truth, although dialectic can be useful to eliminate extraneous and contradictory propositions, generally debate and argumentation is about winning and losing. What is honed there is strategy, tactics, presentation. It doesn’t seem flexible and open enough to nurture insight. People don’t go to court to seek truth, they go there to win.

I’d certainly be very careful to presume to know anything about Alex, and personally choose to leave him out of it.

What’s interesting here, for me, lies more within the contextual: on one hand are the changes that climbing has undergone in the last 30 years, primarily signified by a much higher exposure to media and the resulting action that may have upon the soloist. On the other hand is the age old curiosity about what drives those among us who do very different things with their lives under extreme risk, carrying a burden of socially unacceptable costs.

While I might agree that publicly spurring the soloist may be considered an irresponsible act, I don’t agree with the extreme which JStan suggested that merely tabling the discussion is in some way destructive. I get that high profile argumentation can turn the eye of authorities and yes it could lead to regulation, but, nevertheless I do not think that constructive criticism and engagement of the topic should be avoided out of fear for those outcomes.

Here’s an excerpt from a book which I find it be quite germane to the topic, although it does extend from a different milieu, from that of fighter pilots during World War II and although we might be quick to characterize fighting for one’s country as ill-compared to a “hobby” such as rockclimbing, take particular note of the degree to which the young pilot is given to the romance of his pursuit and perhaps beyond that the level of particular meaning in which he finds himself ensconced:

(excerpt from "Forever Flying", RD "Bob" Hoover)

I did NOT post this passage as a transparent defense of free soloing.
I offer it more as an exhibit toward curiosity and inquiry.

I posted it as an example of what makes people who they are and how they tick.
Especially when young.

It is also no accident that I chose this passage because the young pilot draws upon notions which touch upon, perhaps in a roundabout way, Edwin Drummond’s final statement in the OP, namely “And she will find you”. (Both the notion of female companionship, as elaborated by the young pilot, exchanged/equated with his love for flying, and sadly, the mother, as described by Bob Hoover as she searched for her son).

Some people find meaning in places which are indescribable to others.
And yes there are consequences.

survival

Big Wall climber

A Token of My Extreme

Mar 21, 2010 - 11:15pm PT

Nice post Tar!

That one may take me a bit to digest.....

I definitely see both ( or more ) sides to this discussion. I am here to learn and listen and not try to bulldoze people in most discussions I ever participate in.

In this one I kind of came down with a gut reaction, due mostly, to my distaste for the media hype/ sponsorship etc. around some of the modern accomplishments. That seems to me to be an entirely wrong reason to undertake such a climb.

I'm not saying that is why Alex or someone else would do it. But I think it's more of a factor than most here seem willing to admit.

Tarbuster

climber

right here, right now

Mar 21, 2010 - 11:20pm PT

Not that you and I could claim much direct experience with it, but I'd bet in modern times it's unrealistic to portray a separation, a firewall if you will, between the two any a longer.

The question is one of degree; how much influence and what kind of qualitative effect it has on choices.

bmacd

Trad climber

Beautiful, BC

Mar 21, 2010 - 11:21pm PT

its symbiotic in a positive way, possibly

Tarbuster

climber

right here, right now

Mar 21, 2010 - 11:24pm PT

Yes symbiotic.
And it can be positive.

Although a two-way street, money can bring opportunity.
Exploration and standards evolve, always at a price, but things happen to push the forefront of activities.

Has anybody seen a documentary called Steep?
A really good treatise on extreme skiing.
And there is death, very poignant death.

survival

Big Wall climber

A Token of My Extreme

Mar 21, 2010 - 11:57pm PT

You're right Tar.
We labored away in more or less pure obscurity, for the love of the game.

There are still many who do it for that alone.
Some great things get done out of the spotlight.

I don't know if there are many who actually shun the lights.....
Or would we all flock to it like moths?

Tahoe climber

climber

Davis these days

Mar 22, 2010 - 01:47am PT

Responses still tell more about poster than about Alex. Think about it.
And, Alex knows what he's doing.

No free-soloist in history has ever been fooled about what the consequences are of failure.

TC

MisterE

Social climber

Across Town From Easy Street

Mar 22, 2010 - 01:52am PT

Poetic in a time of reaction - very nice and caring post from someone who has been to the edge.

Norwegian

Trad climber

Placerville, California

Mar 22, 2010 - 09:07am PT

Nobodies pissing on any Fire Norwegian. This is much more than some exestential fart into the ether.Perhaps I have to see a little to much reality everday, but you sir, should see a little more.

radical,
my wife is a nurse. thus, by association, i chew on sinewy reality often.
im raising two daughters - lots of reality there.
i pay taxes, i pause dreams. - reality? check.
i've been forced to free solo at my leading limit at night in the rain - up and then back down-climb. thus i share wee empathy with the subject of this thread.

your reflections are valid. aren't mine?

ric

Trad climber

Annapolis, MD

Mar 22, 2010 - 10:37am PT

I haven't read this site in a while. I personally think the idea of someone soloing El cap is awesome. Good Luck Alex

Bulldog

Trad climber

Yosemite, CA

Mar 22, 2010 - 10:50am PT

Alex, are you up their training right now? The Great Roof, the Changing Corners pitchs? Get them dialied, again and again and again, ect..................................................................................................................................................................................

aaronjones

climber

Mar 22, 2010 - 11:09am PT

y'all r tards

hooblie

climber

from where the anecdotes roam

Mar 22, 2010 - 11:10am PT

apropo the intrusion of compensation for risk on an implied event-pending basis, the billion dollar business
involving harvested body parts will be the subject of a cnbc special tues night, 7pm pdt.

missing the ball here chasing sponsorships for walking the edge while the real money is stalking the other side? screw the scruples,
be suspicious when the "team" starts packing scalpels to the big show.

tendons: $,1000 ~ corneas: $6,000 ~ heart valves: $7,000 ~ leg bones, full set: $20,000

futures contracts, off track wagers ... it's a brave new world
tolerate a tinge of macabre, then titrate to effect

disclaimer: (cyber sarcasm)

Bullwinkle

Boulder climber

Mar 22, 2010 - 11:41am PT

what Aaron said. . .

Norwegian

Trad climber

Placerville, California

Mar 22, 2010 - 11:49am PT

oh, those echo'ed insults hurt.

Studly

Trad climber

Mar 22, 2010 - 11:55am PT

sometimes a terrorist can say it best, time for this song.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7sjSHazjrWg

Jaybro

Social climber

Wolf City, Wyoming

Mar 22, 2010 - 12:27pm PT

Alex will do what he wants, or needs to do, for his own reasons. That's how it works. and how it needs to be.

Edwin has every right to make his comments, to express himself on this, in the the eloquent orose style we have grown to expa\ect from him.

The rest will be history.

I read 'Dreams of white horses ' last month. A very worthy read. I've followed mr drummond's writing and adventures since that Troll wall piece back when i was a wee prat growing up by a windfall...

Welcome to the Taco Edwin.

Best of luck with this and other Aspirations, Alex!

MisterE

Social climber

Across Town From Easy Street

Mar 22, 2010 - 12:51pm PT

I recently re-read "The Superlative Horse", a somewhat lengthy proverb, or a short book.

It deals with the rare ability to see the true spirit of a horse, to see what other simply cannot.

It reminded me to not limit others by fencing them in with my personal perspectives. I am completely certain that there are those who see regularly what I cannot conceive of within my senses or spirit.

Lambone

Ice climber

Ashland, Or

Mar 22, 2010 - 01:02pm PT

Good point MisterE, and often people show their fear of what they can't comprehend by dismissing it as absurd, foolsh or reckless.

And I echo Aaron. Unless you are there in the ditch with these guys all season, you can't full comprehend what they are doing or how they do it. We are tourists. So stfu when it comes to spraying online how they should live or climb.

MH2

climber

Mar 22, 2010 - 03:05pm PT

Funny, though, the apparent need to comment: us tards on stuff beyond us and Aaron's mirror urge to comment back on us.

Just talk.

Prod

Trad climber

Dodge Sprinter Dreaming

Mar 22, 2010 - 06:35pm PT

Funniest/ scariest post so far....

smith/cosgrove 2012

To the OP, I liked the writing and sentiment, but not the message.

Thank you,

Prod.

jstan

climber

Mar 22, 2010 - 06:50pm PT

Just so.

Speculations as to whether X will or not do Y are offensive and an invasion of another's privacy. An invasion to which any direct response only gives traction. The invaders are not always but they are on occasion driven by simple self-interest.

Objectionable.

jstan

climber

Mar 22, 2010 - 07:00pm PT

Think about it, Dingus. You are not this type. I'm quite sure of that.

MisterE

Social climber

Across Town From Easy Street

Mar 22, 2010 - 07:16pm PT

What you wrote makes good sense, John. It IS an invasion, and one must carefully consider all potential underlying motives to allow a fair and balanced perspective.

jstan

climber

Mar 22, 2010 - 07:56pm PT

It all comes down to this.

Do we control ourselves?

Or do we not?

If we do not, who is in control?

aaronjones

Social climber

ditch

Mar 22, 2010 - 08:27pm PT

still tards

Studly

Trad climber

Mar 22, 2010 - 09:14pm PT

What about the hobo?

Norwegian

Trad climber

Placerville, California

Mar 22, 2010 - 09:53pm PT

mr jones,
no one here is a tard. you are mistaken.
you are simply looking for a cheap thrill
by getting a rise out of fellow climbers
whom are interested in the directions
that our common pastime is changing.

there folks.
that little fire is extinguished.

Tarbuster

climber

right here, right now

Mar 22, 2010 - 11:47pm PT

Well, one of my screen nicknames, though seldom used, IS Tardy.
Never hurts to be right.

Anyhow,
Has the other shoe dropped yet?
I can see it now:

"say, hey there mates ... this is Mick from UK climbing.com"
About that OP, we trolled you yanks pretty good this time...

Lambone

Ice climber

Ashland, Or

Mar 23, 2010 - 12:46am PT

I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss Aaron's opinion. The dude knows more about hangin it out there, and climbing for a living, then most of us...excluding Werner. Which I believe is exactly what he is getting at in not so many words.

GDavis

Social climber

SOL CAL

Mar 23, 2010 - 12:52am PT

Alex is a rad dude.

In the middle of signing God knows how many posters, he stopped and talked to my Mom for fifteen minutes. She went alone to the red rock rendesvou to take some clinics and Alex took time out to tell her that he is really enjoying introducing HIS family to climbing.

Its a funny thing, but you can tell the true character of someone by how they treat people they have no reason to be nice to. The Hubers also had a beer with granny.

I never met Alex, but he is rad in my book. And I was in Zion when he soloed Moonlight. It was weird, you could FEEL it in camp - something was going on. Hard to exlpain.

And a big shout out to the man, Aaron Jones! What you been up to dude?? I had a blast reading your trip report last year about all those walls. Keep us posted brudda.

WBraun

climber

Mar 23, 2010 - 12:53am PT

" .... who is in control?"

We only have partial control ever.

Roger Breedlove

climber

Cleveland Heights, Ohio

Mar 23, 2010 - 09:57am PT

Morning Tar (no "d" for me),

I don't think Ed intended his thread to be a troll, but the subject, his writing style, and his silence so far are as good as trolling gets.

Tarbuster

climber

right here, right now

Mar 23, 2010 - 10:10am PT

Of course he didn't.
I was just goofing off (but you knew that too).
And you're quite right on the second part!

survival

Big Wall climber

A Token of My Extreme

Mar 23, 2010 - 11:49am PT

How would we know any of that with such an unintelligent post?
Beside that, many of us know plenty about "hangin it out there."

Lambone

Ice climber

Ashland, Or

Mar 23, 2010 - 12:30pm PT

Well I guess you'd have to know Arron.

squatch

Boulder climber

santa cruz, CA

Mar 23, 2010 - 10:03pm PT

Anxious Melancholy

Mountain climber

Between the Depths of Despair & Heights of Folly

Mar 23, 2010 - 10:21pm PT

i consider my fate very time i climb. i re-evaluated my presence after the loss of my possessions resulting from a regional fire storm. "i" am here momentarily. let me set the tone and tenor of my existence as i see fit, without influence of yours.

brett

climber

oregon

Mar 24, 2010 - 06:25pm PT

I'd venture that a free solo of the Nose is out of the question, at least for several generations.

The leap from Astroman to RNWF Half Dome took 20+ years and the leap from there to the Nose is considerably wider.

It is all but impossible to be solid on the Nose in the same way climbers were solid on Astroman even 25 years ago

donini

Trad climber

Ouray, Colorado

Mar 24, 2010 - 07:28pm PT

"You live by the sword, you die by the sword." Of course, the swordsman keep getting better.

Tarbuster

climber

right here, right now

Mar 24, 2010 - 09:28pm PT

Tell it Jim!
Straight, no chaser.
Elegant too.

Ed Hartouni

Trad climber

Livermore, CA

Mar 24, 2010 - 09:51pm PT

"We are nothing without the work of others our predecessors, others our teachers, others our contemporaries. Even when, in the measure of our inadequacy and our fullness, new insight and new order are created, we are still nothing without others.

Yet we are more."

J. Robert Oppenheimer, Reith Lecture, December 20, 1953

Prod

Trad climber

Dodge Sprinter Dreaming

Mar 24, 2010 - 10:15pm PT

Tar wrote.

Tell it Jim!
Straight, no chaser.
Elegant too.

About...

"You live by the sword, you die by the sword." Of course, the swordsman keep getting better.

Isn't this a chaser?

Of course, the swordsman keep getting better.

Prod.

Klimmer

Mountain climber

San Diego

Mar 24, 2010 - 10:18pm PT

Inspiration and warning, one word . . .

ICARUS

climber

Mar 24, 2010 - 10:46pm PT

Beautiful quote, Mr. Hartouni. Thank you.

Reminds me of the greek methaphysical notion that "we are what we are because of what we can become".

Tarbuster

climber

right here, right now

Mar 24, 2010 - 10:49pm PT

If you must, "Prod".
Jeebus.

Signed,
Your "Other"

WBraun

climber

Mar 24, 2010 - 10:59pm PT

This guy .... Ed. Drummond?

Where the fuk did he go?

Hey man get your ass back in this thread and say something ......

survival

Big Wall climber

A Token of My Extreme

Mar 24, 2010 - 11:11pm PT

No doubt Werner, that's what I was thinking.

Maybe he's just a pot stirrer...sp?

guido

Trad climber

Santa Cruz/New Zealand/South Pacific

Mar 24, 2010 - 11:20pm PT

Let us not forget, the downfall of the Samurai was gunpowder.

bmacd

Trad climber

Beautiful, BC

Mar 25, 2010 - 12:00am PT

supertopo trolled by Ed Drummond ? weird ....

guido

Trad climber

Santa Cruz/New Zealand/South Pacific

Mar 25, 2010 - 12:03am PT

Trolled by.............................................?

tom woods

Gym climber

Bishop, CA

Mar 25, 2010 - 12:07am PT

If the kid can hack it, only he knows.

While we're arguing, some crazy drunk Euro will probably come over and send the freerider naked and barefoot, or maybe with just some old inner tubes wrapped around his feet for "superior friction capabilities."

Todd Eastman

climber

Bellingham, WA

Mar 25, 2010 - 12:28am PT

We are the peanut gallery!

Tarbuster

climber

right here, right now

Mar 25, 2010 - 12:39am PT

Peanuts, mix'd nuts, & tards.
Now just placeholdin' for Edwin's Drummins.

C'mon Ed D.
Chime in before Pate hacks your avatar for some crowd pleasin' follow up.

Fletcher

Trad climber

Just me and three kids

Mar 25, 2010 - 03:13am PT

I happened to see the film of Alex soloing Moonlight Buttress and HD last night.

My tiny, small tard brain is still processing. Meltdown may be imminent (but that may just be caused by my kids).

Lots to think about here on this particular campfire.

Eric

Lambone

Ice climber

Ashland, Or

Mar 25, 2010 - 11:49am PT

What makes you guys so sure the OP is really Ed Drummond?

Roger Breedlove

climber

Cleveland Heights, Ohio

Mar 25, 2010 - 11:53am PT

Valid question, but I can answer: it is Ed. Both posts. He has taken the plunge; now he is working on how he wants to proceed.

I think he should come up with a six word response to all the posts on this thread.

Edwin Drummond

Trad climber

San Francisco, CA

Topic Author's Reply - Mar 26, 2010 - 11:08am PT

A Homage to Alex Honnold

It appears to me that Alex, the morning star of the en-dangerists, the harms way film makers, equipment sponsors and magazine under-writers, is, perhaps pre-consciously, allowing himself to become their puppet. That commercial strand of disconnect in our common, climbing culture, the hypermedia, by focusing upon the exponents of extreme, over-exposed, un-roped, solo rock climbing as representing the true summit of climbing ability and achievement, is misleading. For many, if not most of us who came to climbing in the bold days when there were no sticky boots, cams, or harnesses, only a few budding nuts, climbing was, at first, a dream, a waking dream that we experienced in broad daylight, an effortless pleasure, a way of making love with our mother, Nature. And though, slowly, but inexorably, we came to, had children, spouses, houses, divorces, and grew heavier, most of us on the rocks managed to avoid killing ourselves; for one good reason... Not so the un-roped soloists.

Since late last year, after thinking about the issue for several months following my first viewing of Alex’s film, at the Reel Rock Climbing Festival presentation in San Francisco, recently, after seeing the film for a second time I felt an un-ignorable surge of concern, which, I decided, I needed to share with him. So, not knowing him personally, but publically – by invitation as it were through his film and an article or two, I wrote.

“And, you know what Alex? To be brutally honest I hoped to terrify you. Let’s ignore momentarily the distinction between private, unpublished, solo, un-roped climbing such as it appears Peter Croft committed on Astroman, and roped, protected climbing with a partner, the sum of which is always greater than the parts we play along with when alone, and concentrate upon what appears to be the case with your filmed ascent. From what one of the posters writes, apparently, at the monthly R.I.M. club meeting in Santa Rosa, in, I believe, October 2009, you admitted to staging a personal crisis on the Thank God traverse. If this is true, that you misrepresented yourself in order to dramatize and manipulate affect in the viewer, clearly one is entitled to wonder just how much ‘scripting’ (i.e. assistance from the film team) of your allegedly free solo took place. What, for example, was the reason they apparently didn’t film you on the hardest pitch, the exit bolted slab that you almost fell apart on as you described in a later article? Perhaps you can inform us. Further more I find it hard to accept that you climbed the entire N.W. face of Half Dome without any water, food, or rehearsal, which is what the documentary would seem to imply. Now, if you had, first of all, before the film climbed the face alone with no personal nourishment or previous experience of it, then, I have to say, it truly saddens me that you would hold yourself, your life, with all its bright promise, so cheaply: rock breaks, as do nerves. And then again, if you had in fact climbed the entire route previously in such a naked state in order to repeat it in whole or part for money and (fleeting) fame, is surely tempting fate.”

“Look down Alex…at your belly. See that knot? That tells it as it is. That’s how we come to this world: umbilicusly, tied in, connected. Climbing, and pretty much everything humans do in the name of life depends upon recovering contact, connect, ‘the touch of warm rock to the hand’ as Robbins says, (and, I would add, commonsense). Ignoring that connection – because it cannot be seen optically – by soloing at the edge of sanity endangers everyone, not just you. Whether it’s the Nose, Free Rider, or that slickest of routes, Whatever, doesn’t matter. We are human, and – unless we’ve automatonized by overdosing on adrenalin through repeated exposures to high risk – do feel fear, do need to love, be loved, and to work.”

“Up-scaling un-roped solo climbing at the hardest and most marginal levels as being the highest achievement in climbing would seem to me to be, as someone has posted, regressive. And I would add repressive. It is always grounded upon prior knowledge/information and learning/experience (praxis). As such it steps back into the past, memory, muscle memory and the mastery of mind control of emotional (often childhood) trauma, not forward – thanks to the rope – into that real creativity that can always, relatively safely, risk a fall. That kind of Keatsian awareness, negative capability, that un-certain, querky, quarkian consciousness resides I believe at the site of all genuine creation, including climbing a new, unknown route, on sight, though not a previously climbed one that any such knowing, and subsequently unroped climber might attempt. However, that kind of climbing – of an unknown, unclimbed new line – is a kind of climbing that likely no one who is alive can tell us about, and is one which, in my opinion far surpasses in danger, difficulty and creativity the levels discussed so far. Were anyone of as great ability as you Alex possess to attempt to do so, isn’t it at least conceivable that their parent(s?) or the NPS, would consider having them restrained as suicidal?”

“Imagine: An unclimbed cliff of soaring, sheerest aspect, one perhaps recently stumbled upon in, let’s say deepest China. You decide to try it. Call it The Great – est – Wall... Twice El Cap high, perfect granite, with intermittent cracks and corners, wrinkled faces, and sweeping slabs that steepen into arches and separate reality overhangs; a mild 5.12 at most! – as far as you can see. And there appear to be shallow, silver pools that have gathered from run-off on large ledges, reminiscent of Royal Arches, one or two every thousand feet or so, and palm trees laden with clusters of dates, and bird-size butterflies that brush your face as you gaze upwards. The temperature is like an Indian summer-September in the Valley. This is it. Paradise. Clad in shorts, tee shirt, sun cap, and the new super stickies – Yo ho ho! – off you went, alone, un-roped, no gear except for your supplicant chalk bag, and an insupportably beautiful new route that you know nothing about; all yours for the (s)ending, and in camera! Now, tell me you wouldn’t do it… Would you? But just imagine doing all that with a mate, a wonderful friend, someone you trust and love, someone to share leads, and nights with. Heaven on Earth, that would be something to write home about!” (‘If you’d had a home. If you’d had a Dad… If you hadn’t slipped.’)

“You do, in our hearts. Maybe you can find him…

You write the ending.”

Ed. Drummond

handsome B

Gym climber

SL,UT

Mar 26, 2010 - 11:24am PT

A few points of clarification.
RNWF and Moonlight were both rehersed. Both were climbed first without documentation, then reenacted for the cameras. Croft reenacted Astroman for the cameras, it's one of my favorite shots.
Alex climbs on a rope. Alex climbs hard FAs on a rope. Alex climbs hard FAs on a rope in uncharted tropical wonderlands.

Alex lives in the back of a van.

WBraun

climber

Mar 26, 2010 - 12:12pm PT

"The temperature is like an Indian summer-September in the Valley. This is it. Paradise."

You're wrong, it's far from paradise >>> it is hell itself. (shocking statement)

If you really knew what real paradise is ......

Also the whole assumption of your ideas reek of fatalism, nihilism, and voidism as this life is all in all and nothing further beyond the death of the individual gross physical body.

You think the individual is the body. The driver of the vehicle is not the vehicle/body.

You are seeped in gross physical materialism speculating it is all in all .......

Studly

Trad climber

Mar 26, 2010 - 12:17pm PT

There is just one thing certain.....

Norwegian

Trad climber

Placerville, California

Mar 26, 2010 - 12:23pm PT

ed,
i appreciate your your creative efforts.
i appreciate your depth as a climber, and the perspective that you have earned.
i appreciate your kind sentiment, and the grace in your expression.
i appreciate you taking the time to share your heart's yearnings.

it can be a tough crowd. though most wield a soft hued heart.

Bullwinkle

Boulder climber

Mar 26, 2010 - 01:03pm PT

as always. . . .clueless. . .

aaronjones

Social climber

ditch

Mar 26, 2010 - 01:31pm PT

ed drummond=supertard

tarek

climber

berkeley

Mar 26, 2010 - 02:03pm PT

tastes in writing shore do vary...

to me, the flaw in ED's take on this (and his take swells with hubris born of excess groupie praise and real risk-taking long past its expiration date - in my opinion) is the idea that one's intentions matter most of the time at the gross level of chosing the moment when we exit this place.

can't remember his name, but there was a guy who'd trekked all over the Himalaya, came home to Berkeley, decided to get a vasectomy, walked out of the doc's office onto the street, fainted and hit his head on a concrete planter. Dead.

ED should have written that guy a letter.

Lots of climbers dead on 4th class terrain, vehicle accidents, etc. Or, what could be more dangerous that high-level mountaineering?

In fact, if he's so determined to save the lives of people who hang it out, he should try basejumpers first. My buddies who do it tell me that super-experts die regularly in Europe. Or write to that dude who wants to be the first to land a jump with only a wingsuit. That guy has had way more publicity than Honnold.

cintune

climber

the Moon and Antarctica

Mar 26, 2010 - 02:15pm PT

Seems more like the issue is not free soloing per se, it's doing it with the overriding goal of turning it into climbing porn.

tarek

climber

berkeley

Mar 26, 2010 - 02:17pm PT

he had a rope on for that stuff lambone recounted. So why didn't ED write about his roped climbing? Speculation: b/c this is an exercise in more public drama creation for a writer who, like all writers, is cultivating an audience (nuthin' wrong with that). Coulda written a thoughtful general essay, as several have mentioned, though.

You don't think it's arrogant for ED to think that he could scare AH with words, after all of the stuff he's done??

climber

Mar 26, 2010 - 03:02pm PT

What Werner said.

tarek

climber

berkeley

Mar 26, 2010 - 03:03pm PT

Radical,

Yeah, it's all math, I agree. Try multiplying all of the major probabilities...then try multiplying all of their interaction terms, then their bundled interaction terms. But, as you say, it's also a matter of paying attention, something that soloists do extremely well, as a rule.

We've all been in "situations," with a rope where it was basically unplanned soloing. A friend of mine died when rock broke on easy ground and he was way run-out.

The reason I'll stop writing now is that I'm just contributing to the OP's show, and my opinion is that his writing here is lousy, and his motivations stink. But I agree that the issues are worth thinking about.

Roger Breedlove

climber

Cleveland Heights, Ohio

Mar 26, 2010 - 03:08pm PT

Alternate introductions and voiceovers:

Alex: “Hi. I’m Alex Honnold. I am a pretty regular guy who has excelled at rock climbing. I do it because I love it. I love it for the same reasons that all rockclimbers love their sport. This film is not about why rock climbers climb, or why it so much fun, or about technique. It is about me providing you with the entertainment of watching me climb without a rope. Don’t worry; I don’t fall in the movie. I made this introduction afterward.”

Announcer: “Rock climbing requires strength and flexibility and loads of specialized technique, acquired through lots of practice. Roped climbing can be very dangerous. To push yourself physically, you have to control your mind and your fears. Both skills are necessary. Free soloing is a way to test that your mind is completely in control, and when your mind is in control, free soloing is safe. Many more accidents have occurred with roped climbing than with free soloing. Climbing without a rope is a way to reduce the chances of falling, to make climbing very safe. When you climb with a rope, your mind is tricked into thinking that climbing is dangerous; when you take the rope away, your mind is forced to accept that climbing is safe.”

Artful shots of Alex walking to base. Cut away to Alex way off the ground, hands and toes barely touching the rock.

Alex: “You can just get the tips of two fingers in; just a little skin is touching the rock. Your feet are pasted to the smooth wall. About as exposed as you can be.”

Voice over: “Alex has climbed this route before. He knows exactly where to place his hands and feet. He has tested the rock for soundness. He feels very comfortable with the idea that he can make all the moves without slipping to his death. Don’t worry; he won’t fall off in this movie.”

Alex: “Free soloing of the kind I do for these videos is a kind of pure entertainment. Climbing has many aspects, figuring out how to get up really hard moves, learning to fall on to a rope so you don’t get hurt, telling your friends about how cool it was, getting into a physical or mental zone that just makes you feel alive. All of these aspects are part of what I do before I free solo for the camera. In a sense, the climbing is completely done by the time I feel comfortable enough to free solo a route. Sort of like…well I don’t know quite what it is like as compared to ordinary activity. Maybe like reenacting a winning touchdown without any defensive players around. Or dry-humping the pillow after she has left.”

Voice over: “Alex is not going to fall. This is entertainment. Oh, and don’t try this at home.”

Cut away to handwringing old dudes, with vaguely familiar faces and stances that probably once looked substantial.

Old dude One: “I don’t see the point. He has already climbed the route a dozen times. He knows every move. Where is the adventure in that? Royal and Yvon told us to go for adventure; to go for uncertainty.”

Old dude Two (Northern Italian accent): “He is murdering the impossible.”

Old dude Three (Moral accent):” He is selling out. Making climbing porn for plastic pulling wankers.”

Old dude Four (Greek accent): “Come my friends, we must all die. Why moan about it so.”

Old dude Five (SuperTopo accent): “What difference does it make? The human body is a false promise. Life is illusion. Does a falling climber make a sound if no one hears it?”

Cut away to Alex smoothly moving up the rock.

Voice over: “Don’t worry folks, Alex is not going to fall. Free soloing is completely safe.”

Cutaway to twentysomethings, reacting to old dudes:

TST One (TST accent): “Tards.”

TST Two (TST accent): “Super-tards.”

TST Three (TST accent): “Alex knows what he is doing. He has been up there before. Knows the moves cold. He’s not going to fall.”

TST One (TST accent): “Tards.”

TST Two (TST accent): “kkheej kjjheej. Supter-tards”

TST Four (SuperTopo Ascent): “It is just about the moment. The entertainment value. What’s the big deal? Alex can do what he wants.”

TST Five (TST accent): “Smoke a phat one.”

TST One (TST accent): “Tards.”

Cut away to Alex in the same crack. Ground much farther away. Moving smoothly. Looks bored.

Vague off-mike sounds:

Voice one (Suit accent): “This is boring.”

Voice two (Suit accent): “Tell me about it. Who will watch this? Everyone knows he is going to make it. It's just like math. You plug the numbers into a formula and out pops the move.”

Voice three (Suit accent): “That’s it. Wrap it up.

Voice one (Suit accent): "Whaaaat?"

Voice three (Suit accent): "Next time he does it adventure style.”

Voice two (Suit accent): ”You mean sight-unseen?”

Voice three (Suit accent): “That right. We have to restore risk and uncertainty into climbing. No one will watch this façade. Free soloing is completely safe. He never falls.”

Fade to old dude:

WBraun

climber

Mar 26, 2010 - 03:37pm PT

Roger

So hilariously funny.

Tell us what you really think , aside from playing the safe card in your above post.

survival

Big Wall climber

A Token of My Extreme

Mar 26, 2010 - 03:58pm PT

Tards....HA!

Chris Wegener

Trad climber

St. John, Virgin Islands

Mar 26, 2010 - 05:23pm PT

As mentioned, very interesting and entertaining.

Having just seen the discussed videos, I was completely blown away by Alex's performance. I can't even dream of being able to climb like that.

Absolutely, Alex will do what Alex wants. Its freewill.

Many people are missing Ed's main point. No matter what Alex free solos in the end it will pale in significance to the time he spends with his partner, his children, his friends. As one gets older surprisingly each day becomes more precious and life more important.

Dying for a climb, no matter how amazing, snuffs out any chance to experience the future. This reality is often lost on the young.

I have made many mistakes in my life. I have often wondered if there was anything someone could have said to me to make me realize that I was going to make a mistake and let me change my mind. The only answer I can come to is NO. I would not have listened and would not have heard what was being said. I know this because people who loved me did indeed tell me that there were better choices I could make.

I suspect that this reality is true for most of us. So I wish Alex a long and happy life, whatever he may choose to do.

Regards,
Chris

Fletcher

Trad climber

Just me and three kids

Mar 27, 2010 - 12:27pm PT

Brilliant Roger! Thanks.

I think what interesting here is not so much what Ed chose to put "out there," but what it reveals about others' reactions to it (not a lot gets revealed sometimes). For any creation such as painting, sculpture, novels, essays, poetry, kid's doodlings, Tami's drawings, or Locker's, Peter's and Cosmic's photo transformations, etc. there can be two elements.

There is the creator. They do what they do and their reason, if known to anyone, lies with themselves (and sometimes that is not even clear).

Then you add the observer of the art/expression and the observer's reaction. The latter half is a making entirely of the observer.

A stimulating thread, even the tard parts!

To me (and that's all) Ed's writing is like a deep, rich, heavy and complex port. Can't chuck gallons of the stuff at one sitting. But a small glass, slowly sipped, is a delight. Not everyone likes port.

Happy Saturday!
Eric

Bullwinkle

Boulder climber

Mar 27, 2010 - 12:30pm PT

Wow Rodger, that's some corney-ass stuff. . .

Gym climber

sacramento, ca

Mar 27, 2010 - 02:00pm PT

From my recollection sometime around the middle of July 2004 Alex's climbing really took off, his interest in the outdoors and his on-sight soloing really came to the forefront of his life.

I have always wondered what caused him to so dramatically change his attitude and his climbing.

~lisa l

jstan

climber

Mar 27, 2010 - 02:05pm PT

This thread and our willingness to intrude is not our highest moment.

Tarbuster

climber

right here, right now

Mar 27, 2010 - 02:18pm PT

I'm inclined to agree with that John.
A tall tree however, does tend to acquire wind.

A lot of this is about media exposure, how it is engaged, how we respond.
I don't have a particular attitude toward it; it happens, I say let it play out (engagement of media with our sport, and vice versa, in the big picture), that's what will happen regardless. Certainly can't see it as entirely negative.

As a sport we're still in the infantile stages of media management, such as it is. Probably always a somewhat messy proposition.

MH2

climber

Mar 27, 2010 - 08:02pm PT

This thread and our willingness to intrude is not our highest moment.

Is there a plot of this somewhere?

Bullwinkle

Boulder climber

Mar 28, 2010 - 12:09am PT

acquire wind? sounds more like you're passing wind. . .

Tarbuster

climber

right here, right now

Mar 28, 2010 - 12:42am PT

Nice jab Dean.
What else is on your mind?

Rick A

climber

Boulder, Colorado

Mar 28, 2010 - 11:15am PT

Ed,

Thanks for your “telegram”, and for initiating one of the better threads in a long time. I met you in Camp 4 long ago and I’m glad you have joined the discussion here.

I disagree with the somewhat hectoring tone of your piece and here’s why.

You have raised what I call the “hero/chump” false dichotomy. Whenever someone dies attempting a climb that is highly risky and succeeds, he or she is considered a hero in the community. But when these heroes miscalculate or “objective” dangers take them, the tendency is to consider them no longer heroes, but chumps, that is, idiots, for losing their lives. I reject this formula.

Whoever tries to solo El Cap would still be a hero, and not a chump as you seem to imply, even if he or she dies trying. It is incredible to think that El Cap was first climbed in 1958 and that someone, whether it is Honnold or someone else, will be able climb it without a rope in the next few years. From being considered an impossible cliff to climb by any means prior to 1958, El Cap will soon be ascended with just shoes and a chalk bag. That is an astounding progression. Who among us is so old or so unimaginative that we haven’t dreamt of having the ability and the courage to solo El Cap?

I do agree with your point that one should not be goaded into soloing for the wrong reasons, that is, to meet the expectations of others. John Long wrote the definitive piece on this subject in “The Only Blasphemy”, a tale most recently retold in the new Stonemaster book. You probably remember it from “Mirrors in the Cliffs:” the story of Long and Bachar soloing route after route in Joshua Tree. It connects forward to Honnold in that Bachar and Long were attempting a “Half Dome” day of soloing, i.e, 2000 feet of unroped climbing, simulating the length of the Northwest Face of Half Dome. At the end of the day, Bachar soloes the 5.11, Left Ski Track, in plain view of Hidden Valley campground and Long describes how he felt the pressure of even a small audience..

“50 hungry eyes gave me the once over, as if to say, Well?”

This pressure almost caused John’s demise and it is a cautionary tale. When El Cap is soloed, my hope is that it will be for a reason other than the virtual applause of millions of “hungry eyes” in the Youtube audience. But I will join in admiring the feat when it is accomplished, regardless of the soloist’s reasons for venturing up there, and I would never presume to tell a brilliant climber to give up his dreams, whether they be a solo of El Cap or the first ascent of the Troll Wall.

Rick

survival

Big Wall climber

A Token of My Extreme

Mar 28, 2010 - 11:41am PT

Randisi,

I agree. Someone earlier made reference to the camera crew being "the backup party"

Rick, that was a great post.

I have slowly been changing my mind about this, a bit at least.
My initial thought was how wrong it would be to do this for the media, sponsors, money etc. And I still feel that way about those specific points.

But the thought of someone doing it is sure impressive.

As I age I appreciate the rope more and the protection closer!

klk

Trad climber

cali

Mar 28, 2010 - 12:39pm PT

I think it will be a good while (if ever) before someone seriously attempts such a thing.

Hans-Jorg Auer already soloed the Fish, the 5.12 classic on the South Face of the Marmolada. Not quite as long as Freerider, but a more alpine setting. Lots of very hard, difficult work on slabs with highly inobvious routefinding that often gets experienced parties into trouble.

Studly

Trad climber

Mar 28, 2010 - 01:42pm PT

Some people climb "Because its there." I say as climbers we give Alex the benefit of that line of reasoning, and give our encouragement and support to such a gifted climber in whatever endeavor he embarks upon with out the negativity or BS.

bmacd

Trad climber

Beautiful, BC

Apr 8, 2010 - 10:25pm PT

Honnold himself sez this about soloing freerider

http://outside.away.com/outside/culture/200905/el-capitan-no-ropes.html
"If I consider it, it's hopefully not going to be an attempt," Honnold says of El Cap. "Of course I've thought about it, but I'm not anywhere close [to being ready]."

Eric Beck

Sport climber

Bishop, California

Apr 8, 2010 - 10:42pm PT

I saw Alex unroped up on Half Dome last Friday when the Banff Film Festivel came to Bishop. It's been a long time since watching someone climb gave me the creeps like this did.

The doubters might ponder the following:

"And don't criticize what you can't understand." - Bob Dylan

Peter Haan

Trad climber

San Francisco, CA

Apr 8, 2010 - 10:53pm PT

Liking Eric Beck’s (old friend) comment just above.

As a soloist, you are completely on your own calendar. Especially if others aren’t keeping track of your every move as some are with Alex. When someone starts writing poetry about your theoretical and vastly hideous demise on a route you don’t even plan to unrope ever, it surely doesn’t have a place in your worldview and such a purview (Ed's) is actually creepier than the horror of watching you unroped 1,000 feet out. You climb, you are in your hay-days of youth with no dependents and at the opening of your adult life, you truly truly know what you are doing and at times just go out and express yourself in these pieces of great virtuosity with the angels.

k-man

Gym climber

SCruz

Apr 9, 2010 - 03:45am PT

"Be safe," the kiss of death? Excellent poem, but a tough mark. I'm with PH: in the abstract it could have been not so personal and as powerful as velvet.

jstan

climber

Apr 9, 2010 - 07:19am PT

Mr. Drummond has manipulated us, egregiously.

But I suppose embarassment is a small price to pay for something like Roger's superb Monty Python bit.

It is an ill wind that blows no one any good.

Peter Haan

Trad climber

San Francisco, CA

Apr 9, 2010 - 08:01am PT

Yeah, Joe... I wonder. Does the whole arrangement just ratchet up several notches, all things seeming the same --- 5.11 is the new 5.8??---or is there something much wilder going on, when the top grade goes from 5.11 to 5.15? It is hard to believe that 5.11 could seem like the 5.8 of 1972, but then again if you have watched 5.11 being dispatched by top climbers today, it really does look like the person is doing 5.8!

Norwegian

Trad climber

Placerville, California

Apr 9, 2010 - 08:04am PT

wind is ill when it is still.
movement ignites search which leads to change,
and growth prevails.

for the youth not to stretch upheld and stagnant standards according to his neon dreams, a surrender to complacency must take place.

"stand still alex. curb your dreams. betray your path because of my fears."

pooey. let thrive that boy.

donh

Social climber

los angeles,ca

Jun 3, 2011 - 08:14pm PT

hi ed

i was thinking about your epic 'first ascent' of the statue of liberty.

did you summit? and if so, who topped out first you or stephen?

rip: Elmer 'Geronimo' Pratt

thanks
don

throwpie

Trad climber

Berkeley

Jun 3, 2011 - 08:24pm PT

Find an old copy of I can't remember which issue of Ascent and read "Mirror Mirror" by Mr. Drummond. Fantastic stuff. i don't feel his comments were out of line...seemed like good advice to me. But Alex is the master of his own ship, sailing on an ocean I can't fathom.

graniteclimber

Trad climber

The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division

Jun 3, 2011 - 08:37pm PT

couchmaster

climber

pdx

Jan 20, 2014 - 09:58am PT

Said upthread:

"There are two kinds of climbers, BOLD climbers or OLD climbers, not both."

I disagree as I see plenty of both still around. The list of old bold climbers would be very long. A few have posted upthread, some don't even speak english, plenty of Euros who would fill the bill of being old and bold. What is old anyway? Is Peter Croft old yet at mid 50's+ or so?

(ps, way to stir up a shitstorm again Randisis LOL)

Peter Haan

Trad climber

Santa Cruz, CA

Jan 20, 2014 - 01:01pm PT

No Dave, not at all, but there is the option of gender, finally.

go-B

climber

Romans 5:8

Jan 20, 2014 - 01:40pm PT

All I got to say is, "TENSION"!

the Fet

climber

Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La

Jan 20, 2014 - 01:50pm PT

As an acquaintance of Alex I know him a little and I doubt he will ever read this thread. He is better than most about not wasting time looking at screens.

I don't blame people for throwing out warnings, I think it's good for people to speak their mind and share their experience. And I think the message stands repeating because it's easy to get caught up in things and get carried away and do something you shouldn't do.

However Alex has an excellent grasp of what he is doing and a great head on his shoulders. I doubt he'd do something he wouldn't do if the cameras weren't rolling.

It will be interesting to see where his climbing career goes. He has huge talent, motivation, and is very smart. The big free solos naturally are limited in number. It's wasn't surprising in a way that one of his next huge accomplishments was the triple crown. Not pure free soloing, but using that talent to pull off the next step in rock climbing. Not surprising that it was his next step, but very surprising that a human could accomplish that. I can't even fathom hiking to the top of those three formations in a day.

Jeff Gorris

climber

Not from, Portlandia

Jan 20, 2014 - 01:57pm PT

http://www.rockandice.com/lates-news/honnold-free-solos-el-sendero-luminoso-5-12d

FTOR

Sport climber

Jan 20, 2014 - 02:03pm PT

when i was soloing a lot there was always this feeling of invincibility. i could do no wrong. there was also the deep down acceptance that i really didn't care, life or death. i was never in the big leagues of soloing but wouldn't think much of vert mile days, just a chalk bag and shoes. the best climbing of my life.

patrick compton

Trad climber

van

Jan 20, 2014 - 02:11pm PT

this isn't 1885, people dont send telegrams anymore

graniteclimber

Trad climber

The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division

Nov 22, 2014 - 09:01am PT

Did someone at Clif Bar read this thread?

mouse from merced

Trad climber

The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.

Nov 22, 2014 - 09:11am PT

Remember how Rome did it.

Bread and circuses.

Lots of blood and dead gladiators.

They all accepted the risk, pretty much, that they would die in combat.

Plus ca change...

(I know very well some were only slaves, but generally they went into the arena under their own will power, following Fortuna.)

Oh, the drama!

Alex gets up. Brushes his teeth. Goes to work. BIG DEAL! He's okay with what he's doing. Lighten the hell up, here, guys. He's actually HAPPY doing what he's doing, and it IS entertaining.

Edwin, don't please be such a wuss.

mouse from merced

Trad climber

The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.

Nov 22, 2014 - 10:50am PT

Drama, irony, suspense...MooseLucky, we're in the zone.

Split a Clif Bar? I'm actually more in the mood for popcorn, though.

McHale's Navy

Trad climber

From Panorama City, CA

Nov 22, 2014 - 11:15am PT

I fell for it again.....thinking this was a new thread at first! Anyway, I made an entry in my journal about the NYT thread that is here at ST. I said that I made some stupid posts about Alex and Clif Bars. Nuf said. Am looking forward to those memoirs he's working on! Climb on!

clinker

Trad climber

Santa Cruz, California

Nov 22, 2014 - 02:30pm PT

Jebus Schist, I hope nothing breaks.

schist
SHist/Submit
nounGEOLOGY
a coarse-grained metamorphic rock that consists of layers of different minerals and can be split into thin irregular plates.

zBrown

Ice climber

Brujò de la Playa

Nov 22, 2014 - 04:32pm PT

Always wondered why someone else wants to tell somebody how to live his life.

-Harry Houdini

nah000

climber

canuckistan

Nov 22, 2014 - 04:51pm PT

'Hubris:’ the country of no old men...

quite the ironic quote embedded in the initial post.

pretty sure that writing a public letter to another human telling him/er what s/he is or isn't capable of, is one of the defining examples of hubris...

so more correctly it should have been:

'Hubris:' the country of at least one old man...

graniteclimber

Trad climber

The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division

Jun 4, 2017 - 11:16pm PT

I guess that Alex Honnold just sent an open telegram reply back to Edwin Drummond.

climber

away from the ground

Jun 4, 2017 - 11:20pm PT

It's my hot body, and I do what I want!

Studly

Trad climber

Jun 4, 2017 - 11:28pm PT

“Your reason and your passion are the rudder and the sails of your seafaring soul.
If either your sails or your rudder be broken, you can but toss and drift, or else be held at a standstill in mid-seas.
For reason, ruling alone, is a force confining; and passion, unattended, is a flame that burns to its own destruction.
Therefore let your soul exalt your reason to the height of passion, that it may sing;
And let it direct your passion with reason, that your passion may live through its own daily resurrection, and like the phoenix rise above its own ashes.”
― Kahlil Gibran, The Prophet

Don Lauria

Trad climber

Bishop, CA

Jun 5, 2017 - 12:01am PT

Oh well, what'd you expect?

Good show, Alex. Freaking amazing!

BLUEBLOCR

Social climber

joshua tree

Jun 5, 2017 - 12:15am PT

[Click to View YouTube Video]

only satan wishes to be on display.

healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Jun 5, 2017 - 12:32am PT

Everyone on the ground appears to have an opinion...

brotherbbock

climber

Alta Loma, CA

Jun 5, 2017 - 10:32am PT

I guess that Alex Honnold just sent an open telegram reply back to Edwin Drummond.

Yep.....shut him down.

HighTraverse

Trad climber

Bay Area

Jun 6, 2017 - 05:39am PT

By the way, how's Ed doing? Last I heard he was stricken with Parkinson's or something similar and out of money in Santa Cruz. (We have such a wonderful, effective and humane welfare system).
Ed was the Alex Honnold of his day. Not by long difficult solo climbs but by a near equivalent. He put up several extremely difficult and dangerous (very loose rock) sea cliff climbs in England. Look up "A Dream of White Horses". After you've flashed it you can throw rocks at Ed.

Yes, Ed has a trenchant sense of humour and always speaks his mind. He tried to make a living writing about climbing. He's been there and done that. He's lost plenty of well known climbing partners. He'd love a rational argument. Don't go pissing on him.

Gnome Ofthe Diabase

climber

Out Of Bed

Jun 6, 2017 - 07:57am PT

Um,
on another thread, Andy Kirkpatrick's attempt to provoke a sense of self-preservation
Has landed with a dull thud. .m. .I'll say it mirrors this older thread, but recent, so encompassing the accomplishments that now include the cordless ascent of El Cap Via the Freerider, (.13, - stacks of .11d, to .12)
(not the ' free blast' on the nose route)

Hmm,
I was thinking much the same thing.
What is one to say when the strongest among us takes that last step?
as is the case with many things, After The Fact is to late.

By then the words and feelings; their real-time meaning are lost
in the sorrow and grief of what might have been.
Also there are no words: trying to be light or casual?

Having sent six+ pitches, cordless, a few times,
and 30 yr's with tons of short (hard enough) pitches,
I can say
better a living Yo-Yo,
than dead, Or strapped flat, with tubes working
and living in your head.

But Not to make lite of the whole?

Order Number: ?

When is your # Up??

I wonder if I'd say this to Alxe H if given the chance ? I'm that guy often enough

Tarbuster

climber

right here, right now

Dec 12, 2018 - 10:34am PT

Yeah, Ed Drummond only posted three times to the forum.
Twice in this thread, and once in between, starting another thread about posting in this thread.

The Postman Cometh

Definitely apropos to give this thing a bump, given what has transpired.

From graniteclimber:

Jun 4, 2017 - 11:16pm PT
I guess that Alex Honnold just sent an open telegram reply back to Edwin Drummond.

Touché!

Rudder

Trad climber

Costa Mesa, CA

Dec 12, 2018 - 11:27am PT

Alex is obviously an anomaly, an outlier, on the spectrum?, haha, and just does not do nor think like us. I wrote him many years ago, too. But, only about the reasons behind what he does (didn't want him doing it for sponsorship money, as that does seem to be about the only way to get any real money, which is not a great thing). Understand though, if he had your sentiments, thought like you or me, he would have never accomplished what he has. It would have been nice if Ali went undefeated, it will be nice if Alex goes undefeated, but these GOATs are going to do what they will do. We can only watch in amazement.

Fossil climber

Trad climber

Atlin, B. C.

Dec 12, 2018 - 02:08pm PT

For some, what you do is what you are - and you don't argue with your identity.

While I'd love to see Alex retire after that mind-boggling performance which has made him a huge permanent landmark in climbing history, I don't think he'll abandon free soloing. And that's his choice.
I just don't want to watch.

Wayne

(Ooops - maybe "landmark" suggests something graphic.)

jogill

climber

Colorado

Apr 11, 2019 - 01:57pm PT

Moose: "Honnold is still alive?! He must be like 30 years old!"

A couple of months ago a friend of mine was having dinner with Honnold and he mentioned that he had bouldered with me years ago and he had talked with me recently. Honnold's reply: "He's still alive!?"

;>)

Roger Breedlove

climber

Cleveland Heights, Ohio

Apr 12, 2019 - 04:02am PT

John, Alex was speaking metaphorically: he knows you post on ST.

Stewart Johnson

Mountain climber

lake forest

Apr 12, 2019 - 06:24am PT

Sounds quite like what they said to Messner 40 some odd years ago

Flip Flop

climber

Earth Planet, Universe

Apr 12, 2019 - 07:22am PT

Play stupid games
Win stupid prizes

MikeL

Social climber

Southern Arizona

Apr 12, 2019 - 08:41am PT

Funny, Flip Flop. Ha-ha.

aspendougy

Trad climber

Los Angeles, CA

Apr 12, 2019 - 12:00pm PT

If I were Alex's Mom, I would be tempted to say, "You got away with it once, but don't you ever do that again!!"

WBraun

climber

Apr 12, 2019 - 12:31pm PT

That's why YOU are NOT his Mom.

Leave him the fuk alone you idiots and take care of your own life first.

Life is NOT based on CHANCE!

rockermike

Trad climber

Berkeley

Apr 14, 2019 - 08:09am PT

Alex is a hero, Drummond is expressing his affection. Both perfectly appropriate in my book.

Jaybro

Social climber

Wolf City, Wyoming

Apr 14, 2019 - 08:19am PT

I've soloed Climb and Punishment , btw. a number of times....

its a climb in Vedauwoo...

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