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Bruce Morris
Social climber
Belmont, California
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No, Fatty, the liberal dems on those commissions are fairly reasonable; they're still basically traditional politicos attempting to reach a working consensus with their public constituencies, balancing the environment against recreational needs. It's the other ones who "nest" in with the liberals, the environmental crazy helmets, defeated in life, who retreat into intractable radical environmental us vs. them positions that are impossible to work with. They're one reason the political system in the USA doesn't work anymore; at the other end of the spectrum are the self-made gun nuts and evangelicals who refuse to compromise likewise. One marginal crazy group that won't work with another marginal crazy group and together destroy any hope of achieving a viable political compromise that's necessary to run the country. After WWII the officer corp still felt indebted to the enlisted men who shed their blood to defeat the fascist common enemy. Today it's dog-eat-dog and devil take the hind-most. You Repugs will never be able to nominate an Eisenhower again given the polarized state of the political system.
I think at Summit we're slowly but surely wearing the opposition down with real scientific evidence. This latest letter from the opposition seems full of errors (Summit Rock is not composed of 'limestone') and odd rhetorical fictions (climbers and bottle-breakers are part of the same lawless group) that will appear ludicrous if exposed to public scrutiny. Don Rocha wouldn't have brought Dr. Pagel over to Summit on his own time if he felt he was winning the argument.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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I think at Summit we're slowly but surely wearing the opposition down with real scientific evidence.
cheers for that--hard hammering, but it's the way to go.
i think we have similar issues at williamson rock, but the access fund wouldn't touch it with a 10-foot cheat stick. these issues require careful examination and the involvement of differing experts. if you stick with it, you'll get results which will be fair. this process never began at williamson.
perhaps the reasons are greatly political. at williamson, the center for biological diversity was involved. it's a think tank of rabid, hungry lawyers capitalizing on emotional crises like these, getting their donations from cat grannies and the like. one forest service rep told me that, while they sympathized with the climbers' point of view over the MYLF at williamson, they were scared to death of an expensive CBD lawsuit. the audubon society, on the other hand, has a large and diverse membership and people who understand scientific issues. you may have some local loonies, but i doubt they'll get a lot of general support within the organization. i don't mind reposting what i put on your other thread:
from my national audubon society field guide to north american birds, (c) 1994:
Following an alarming decline during the 1950s and 1960s, this spectacular falcon, also known as the "Duck Hawk," is on the increase again, now that pesticides that caused thinning of eggshells have been banned. After an intensive program of rearing birds in captivity and releasing them in the wild (a process called "hacking"), this large falcon is reclaiming nesting grounds from which it disappeared a few decades ago. A favorite nesting site nowadays is a tall building or bridge in a city; these urban Peregrines subsist mainly on pigeons.
the bottom line here is, if a peregrine is willing to nest in such urban settings, what the hell is the problem? the key seems to be available food, not comfortable nesting sites and birdwatchers to tuck them in at night.
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apogee
climber
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Nicely stated and worth repeating:
"They're one reason the political system in the USA doesn't work anymore; at the other end of the spectrum are the self-made gun nuts and evangelicals who refuse to compromise likewise. One marginal crazy group that won't work with another marginal crazy group and together destroy any hope of achieving a viable political compromise that's necessary to run the country. After WWII the officer corp still felt indebted to the enlisted men who shed their blood to defeat the fascist common enemy. Today it's dog-eat-dog and devil take the hind-most. You Repugs will never be able to nominate an Eisenhower again given the polarized state of the political system."
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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When I prepared my case of egregious bird molestation, the United States vs Reilly The Birdwatcher,*
I found the best research had been done in England
and Australia. Admittedly, this was 27 years ago, but I found those papers
much more even-handed and honest or scientific if you will.
And if you must know I had dared to climb a ridge which paralleled the ridge/cliff
with the nest. The ridge I climbed was over a mile away horizontally and
separated by a canyon about 800' deep! Yeah, I love our government. Did I
mention the cliff in question was 1500' high?
*
And when you hear the court clerk read that out it definitely gets your attention.
Then I looked over to see they had two lawyers along with the Tools.
All this for a $40 ticket! I got my money's worth!
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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fattrad, you are fluff. you offered to do that two years ago and produced nothing, not even a report back after your celebrated confabulation with congressman oy-vey.
wow, reilly--you are a perp.
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Bruce Morris
Social climber
Belmont, California
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Fatrad is like a wanna be rental cop who pretends to authority that he simply doesn't have. Last time, he said he was going to talk to the SC Board of Supervisors about Summit and wound up talking about Castle Rock State Park which isn't even in their jurisdiction. People who claim to have power to impress and intimidate usually don't have any real power at all. That's why they're talking but not doing.
It seems that all these quasi-political characters appointed to these little boards and what not never have to answer to the voting public. Robb Courtney, the new director of Santa Clara County Parks, does seem to be a more reasonable person to deal with than the radical environmental sock puppets from the lunatic fringe of the local Audubon Society. In his talk at our meeting, Robb did sound as if he was going to try to balance recreational needs against legitimate environmental concerns. But let's face it: for Summit Rock to be the only place in the whole nation that doesn't have a seasonal closure to allow for raptor nesting must be because of local politics, not science. If one of the most noted peregrine experts in the whole country, Dr. Clayton White, tells them that a year-round closure is unnecessary and County Parks still insists on enforcing it, there's got to be something political behind the blanket closure.
Another thing that's most irritating is that the Summit Rock closure was done without any democratic due process or public hearings in the worst tradition of Big Brother bureaucracy. It's still not been announced to the public in any written documents or newspapers. Why? Because if the general public knew they were being excluded from a Park that they're paying tax dollars to maintain, there'd be a big ruckus. It's obvious that Santa Clara County Parks and the Parks and Recreation Commission regard climbers at Summit as second class citizens who represent a problem to exclude from the park by any means available. However, the Santa Clara Board of Supervisors (who appoint many of these bureaucrats) are democratically elected and are therefore more sensitive to the needs of their constituents (i.e. voters). Need I say more?
Of special note re: Williamson: Did I read the other day, Tony, that the MYLFs are dieing off because of a virus that's been introduced into their environment by another species of frog? If so, the climber vs. frog argument is scientifically moot, is it not?
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Dos XX
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Geez....
Climbers vs. the Frogs
Climbers vs. the Birds
I wonder how Johnny Muir would weigh in on the matter? He was definitely a climber.
And applying a popular democratic process to environmental protection...the results would be predictable: bye bye birds, because they have negligible economic value, and bye bye frogs, because they aren't worth anything either.
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Dos XX
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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from SCVAS.org
The primary reasons provided for the year-round closure of the site to climbing are:
* Summit Rock is the only known naturally occurring nest site in Santa Clara County
* Summit Rock is a unique site with ideal conditions
* Peregrines occupy this site year-round
* Climbing routes are adjacent to the eyrie, and even go through it
So, I guess the Access Fund's position is that the biologists who made these observations are liars.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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but, dos equis, the peregrine is no longer an endangered species. and it's proven to nest in places like city skyscrapers and noisy, busy freeway underpasses, according to material i cited above published by the audubon society itself. think about it for half a minute. yes, it was important to be hacking the falcons back when it was recovering from the DDT plague. but the critters have recovered. go on to better things.
as far as that frog goes, bruce, amphibian ecology is a complex issue, and amphibians are being devastated worldwide because of macro changes in atmosphere and climate which have nothing to do with climbing. the argument for closure at williamson was that this species is endangered and it seems to be surviving in this micro environment, so let's protect it there. i can go along with that if someone can give me a big picture about what's happening with that species. the MYLF was widespread throughout the sierra nevada and up into oregon until perhaps 20 years ago. they were especially prevalent in the high country lakes of the sierra. then they started to disappear, and fast. some blamed stocking of lakes with trout. then the fungus. look, the beautiful golden toad in central america vanished practically overnight. i don't think anyone's addressing the real reasons because they'd probably get into political incorrectitude.
the local FS biologist reports that the frogs have come back at williamson after the closure, from a previous population of 9 (yes, 9, according to what a biologist told me about five years ago) to a current population of around 40. fine and dandy. but i think they still owe us an explanation as to why this is important for the big picture for this species, and i also don't think they're about to do it.
fattrad, you promised me. friends of williamson rock have never done a thing to make a point on this issue and i made it clear at the time. friends of williamson rock are all about keeping climbers quiet and writing letters on cue about the fact that, man, we really, really like to climb there.
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Dos XX
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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I must say, Prof. White's report was not what I expected. His discussion was not particularly site-specific, but rather, seemed more an effort to devalue the bird. His conclusion seems to be that the desire to minimize human/falcon contact at this location is primarily an attempt to satisfy a human emotional need rather than a biological necessity. On that last point he may very well be right.
We, as modern human beings are pretty close to having absolute power over everything around us. We can go anywhere we want to go, we can build wherever we want to build, and we can destroy whatever we decide to destroy. So, why not let a few birds have the only available natural spot (for this particular species) in a vast area, as their own, and not have to share it with humans. It's in our power to do that, too.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Kinda like the climate change denial folks Ringsting?
Why must you people take my statements out of context all the time? Why not post the entire sentence and what it was referring to?
I said, "It's liberal eco-nazis who pretend to know better than scientists and traditional facts regarding closures".
This is much different than GW.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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I wonder how Johnny Muir would weigh in on the matter? He was definitely a climber.
And applying a popular democratic process to environmental protection...the results would be predictable: bye bye birds, because they have negligible economic value, and bye bye frogs, because they aren't worth anything either.
No offense but you are really exaggerating. Nobody respects Peregrines like climbers do, and the closures. If you pay attention to the commentary here, a YEAR-ROUND CLOSURE IS UNHEARD OF. Even amongst biologist who study this.
It is not necessary.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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The primary reasons provided for the year-round closure of the site to climbing are:
* Summit Rock is the only known naturally occurring nest site in Santa Clara County
* Summit Rock is a unique site with ideal conditions
* Peregrines occupy this site year-round
* Climbing routes are adjacent to the eyrie, and even go through it
This is bullsh#t. Yes, they are lying...
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Dos XX
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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No offense taken, blue. This is a good discussion.
One of the things I find interesting about this case is that the birdwatchers (Audubon Society) get nothing out of the closure since they're prohibited from going there also (no bird watching), yet they're pretty passionate about keeping the year-round closure in place. We climbers on the other hand, get to do what we want to do by having the year-round closure lifted, at the expense climbing on and through the Peregrine's only available natural nesting location within a very large area. I'd like to think that we as climbers can be a little more generous with Mother Nature's real estate, and not have to lay claim to everything.
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Srbphoto
climber
Kennewick wa
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Get em Bluering!!!!!
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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and not have to lay claim to everything.
We absolutely do not. Quite the opposite really.
Seasonal closures are well-respected amongst climbers. They allow time for baby Peregrines to nest in peace and learn to fend for themselves. Of course a year round closure will result in year-round Peregrine activity. But it IS NOT NECESSARY TO THE HEALTH OF THE PEREGRINE POPULATION. It's a well proven fact.
Fatty is correct to point out that a female has returned for a few years in a row to nest on top of San Jose City Hall. The have a f*#king web-cam set up to monitor them. They do quite well.
The area where these birds nest should be shut completely down (at Summit), but only seasonally. Ones the fledglings can fly and leave the nest, they should reopen it. The birds will find plenty of good habitat in the area. The rock only serves for seasonal nesting.
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Dos XX
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Of course a year round closure will result in year-round Peregrine activity.
And this is undesirable, because....?
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Why? Because it is not necessary. Maybe the Falcons can share the habitat with us too as we respect their nesting habitats.
Would you propose year-round cliff closures at Lover's Leap, Yosemite?
I don't think you understand that it is unnecessary. The Peregrines are no longer endangered. They are fine. The only thing you accomplish is unnecessary access limits by harmless humans to a shared habitat. Is that reasonable, or logical?
Link to SJCH Peregrine Cam;
http://www.sanjoseca.gov/falcons/FalconCam.asp
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tornado
climber
lawrence kansas
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I wonder how Johnny Muir would weigh in on the matter? He was definitely a climber.
I am sure he would not be happy to see this either
All this tagging took place since the year around closure. It was not there before. It is not coming off for a long, long, long,time.
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