Florida stand Your ground law?

Search
Go

Discussion Topic

Return to Forum List
Post a Reply
Messages 1301 - 1320 of total 2232 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Jul 16, 2013 - 02:49pm PT
Would you rather point fingers then do the work it takes to affect real change? The choice is yours.

Don't communicate civilly to one another.
Don't show respect and common courtesy when addressing each other.
Don't work at finding solutions.
Continue to rant and complain. It's easy.

or

Work at breaking down the walls that keep us apart.
Address the inherent problems with segregation.
Allow others to speak, and listen to constructive criticism of what you are sure is true.
Be tolerant and allow yourself to grow as a kind, strong and enlightened individual.

pud,

Thanks for softly speaking to the real societal problem here. Sad to say, I don't think we want to improve; we want to win. That means we need to make someone else lose. Too bad the losers tend to be all of us.

John
monolith

climber
SF bay area
Jul 16, 2013 - 03:06pm PT
As a kid in California in the early 70's, I remember my dad showing me the neighborhood covenant that came with our newly bought home that excluded blacks. Probably not enforceable then, but still a reminder of the way things were.
Tready

Trad climber
Quito
Jul 16, 2013 - 03:15pm PT
Heard something on a sports radio talk show (of all places) yesterday that I thought was pretty interesting. I can't recall it exactly, but it went along the lines of "saying race is THE factor in the Zimmerman case isn't fair, but saying race is A factor is definitely applicable." There was also this nugget from former NBA player John Ameci (might have spelled that wrong): "Obama is the exception, but Trayvon Martin is still the rule."
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Jul 16, 2013 - 03:16pm PT
As a kid in California in the early 70's, I remember my dad showing me the neighborhood covenant that excluded blacks. Probably not enforceable then, but still a reminder of the way things were.

Monolith, those covenants have been unenforceable since the 1940's, but they were hardly applicable only to blacks. Here in Friendly Fresno, my ethnic group - Armenians - were excluded through similar racially restrictive covenants. My father-in-law was excluded from one of the local country clubs because of his ethnicity. I remember swimming with a friend there as a kid, who told me not to give my last name since technically I wasn't supposed to be there. Ironically, that club is now full of Armenians.

Focusing on our current imperfection tends to motivate us to desire change, but sometimes at the cost of a paralyzing despair. Focusing solely on how far we've come creates a danger of satisfaction with an unsatisfactory status quo. It's good to keep both in view.

John
monolith

climber
SF bay area
Jul 16, 2013 - 03:18pm PT
Not enforceable, but still a reminder, please keep the neighborhood white.

It was pretty shocking to me as a little kid, since everything I had read about racism concerned only the south.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jul 16, 2013 - 03:20pm PT
Focusing on our current imperfection tends to motivate us to desire change, but sometimes at the cost of a paralyzing despair.

Ain't that the truth.
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Jul 16, 2013 - 03:23pm PT
We don't know what happened that night.

No one (except GZ) knows how the fight started or how it went down.

Anyone who's served on a jury knows convictions are tough to get.

I'm not surprised the GZ was acquitted, he is innocent until PROVEN guilty. There wasn't enough evidence to know.

GZ is culpable for pursuing TM (getting out of his car to look for street names in his neighborhood that has 3 streets is B.S.) and that will probably be addressed in a civil rights (again not enough evidence to convict IMO) or civil trial (I wouldn't be surprised if GZ loses).

The biggest thing I'm disappointed in is the juror who is talking. She made her mind up in the beginning and states with certainty things she can't know for sure. She was probably the foreman, and was going to go public with a book. So probably pushed the others to agree with her. The trial might have ended up the same way, but when I had jury duty I purposefully volunteered for the job of foreman to keep someone like that from running the show, so I could make sure everyone had a chance to speak and make their mind up on their own.
monolith

climber
SF bay area
Jul 16, 2013 - 03:26pm PT
You said you quit for other reasons before.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Jul 16, 2013 - 03:32pm PT
John wrote: Thanks for softly speaking to the real societal problem here. Sad to say, I don't think we want to improve; we want to win. That means we need to make someone else lose. Too bad the losers tend to be all of us.


Civil dialogue has been going on for hundreds of years, laws have been created to protect minorities...seems like we are taking two steps backwards, one forward.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Jul 16, 2013 - 03:40pm PT
Bob, I guess I see it the opposite way: we're taking two steps forward and one step back. I think the fet states my personal view of this trial well: when accounts differ, prosecutors have difficulty obtaining convictions because they're stuck with the "beyond a reasonable doubt" standard. When the inevitable civil suit for wrongful death comes, with a standard of proof that is merely a preponderance of the evidence, I expect a different verdict.

I was mighty young, but I still remember both Brown v. Board of Education and Orville Faubus fighting desegregation in Little Rock. I simply cannot say with intellectual honesty that we remain the same society we were then. More importantly, I cannot say that riots, violence, or even shouting brought about what we've achieved by talking to, rather than at or about, each other.

John
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Jul 16, 2013 - 03:44pm PT
John wrote: Bob, I guess I see it the opposite way: we're taking two steps forward and one step back.


I wonder if you would feel the same if your were Trayvon parents?

John wrote: I remember swimming with a friend there as a kid, who told me not to give my last name since technically I wasn't supposed to be there. Ironically, that club is now full of Armenians.


So all you had to do was changed/not tell your name to "fit in"...little different for a black person to change his color to "fit in".
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Jul 16, 2013 - 03:54pm PT
I hope some justice comes out of the coming legal procedures. I'd hate to think we're setting a precedent that's its acceptable to murder non threatening, unarmed, people that annoy you, and have no consequences.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Jul 16, 2013 - 04:02pm PT
Riley wrote: Remarkable - now the poor dead kid is guilty of a hate crime too.



And accused by a white nationalist hate group. Some sick-minded people on this thread.

Great post Jay and I agree 100-percent. Trayvon was being stalked by the sick little cop-wanna-be.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Jul 16, 2013 - 04:16pm PT
Bob,

I'm under no delusions that my situation in any way compared with what others faced who "looked different," whether blacks in the South (or, really anywhere in the US) or east Asians in the West. My point was simply that we've made progress, not that we've arrived.

I, for one, have grave difficulty with the idea that Martin's death was not a crime. At the very least, Zimmerman seems, to me, criminally negligent. Having been through the justice system, however, neither the Zimmerman verdict nor, for that matter, the O. J. Simpson murder trial verdict, surprised me. Most legal observers comments that I've read led me to believe the prosecution had no sure thing.

About 15 years ago, West Publishing Company, a leading legal publisher, had an ad showing a picture of an empty jury box. The caption: "Logic Has Its Limits." Despite what we say publicly about the jury system, most lawyers and judges mistrust juries' "reasoning." In fact, virtually the entire law of evidence rests on that mistrust because juries do some strange things, and the motivations are not always what they appear. And the fact remains that most of us, and certainly I, are speculating about a trial we didn't attend.

I do note, though, that you and I are talking, not shouting, about this. In doing so, it's pretty clear we share a common goal. It's also clear (at least to me) that we both think Trayvon Martin did nothing to deserve the treatment he received from Zimmerman even before the shots got fired. Our issue is what we need to change so this doesn't happen again, and to right what we see as a clear injustice. Would we realize that if we were shouting at each other?

John
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jul 16, 2013 - 04:40pm PT
It all comes down to......that which we will never know

the jury decided that they believe Zimmerman acted to defend his life

the state of Florida did not prove beyond reasonable doubt that he did not need to

wonder if Zimmerman got back the unfired rounds in addition to his gun....
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Jul 16, 2013 - 04:43pm PT
John we are not shouting because you actually know how to have an informed (mostly right leaning) dialogue.

This kid was being stalked by a sick little human being armed to kill. GZ version is all that was told.

He really got away with manslaughter.
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Jul 16, 2013 - 04:54pm PT
I am still astounded that the person that instigated the confrontation can claim "stand your ground".
Jemarr

Social climber
Chico
Jul 16, 2013 - 04:57pm PT
Trayvon's parents should have addressed his homophobia and this incident
would never have happened.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Jul 16, 2013 - 04:57pm PT
He/GZ didn't invoke Stand Your Ground in the trial.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Jul 16, 2013 - 05:00pm PT
Trayvon's parents should have addressed his homophobia and this incident
would never have happened.

Yes, Rush explored that angle today on his show, very interesting.

He/GZ didn't invoke Stand Your Ground in the trial.

He also didn't invoke it before trial.
As has been explained many times, SYG had little if anything to do with this case, unless you want to concoct a theory that the local police did a crappy job because of their understanding of SYG.
Turns out local police did an exemplary job in their investigation and came to the legally correct conclusion.
Messages 1301 - 1320 of total 2232 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
Return to Forum List
Post a Reply
 
Our Guidebooks
Check 'em out!
SuperTopo Guidebooks


Try a free sample topo!

 
SuperTopo on the Web

Review Categories
Recent Trip Report and Articles
Recent Route Beta
Recent Gear Reviews