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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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+1 ^^^^
Word John.
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DonC
climber
CA
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new routes in the backcountry are illegal??
I often solo easy cracks, or top rope a face and leave no evidence of passage.
This is illegal?
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jstan
climber
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I have found that if you roll up a crash pad diagonally starting at one corner, you can sometimes get them to go down a flush toilet.
One important and very visual impact is the general trampling of an area when it is frequented by groups of climbers. This comes about because there is more standing than climbing being done.
Years ago I attended a meeting with the supervisor of JTNP. He was very open to comments but was pretty clear about what his job was. He said his job was to manage the uses being given the park and that this is what he would do. Speaking as a taxpayer, I concur fully with this approach to preserving our park lands.
Edit:
Why can't you bring up the specifics?
Because this is not how public lands are managed. I think it is this way because the preservation of a large area cannot be done piecemeal and it has to be done in an ordered process. When the authority starts a process they have to be able to lay out their work all the way to its completion.
The authority convenes the best technical advisors who examine all the usage data available and formulates several scenarios. Extensive public comments are obtained and the plan or plans to be adopted are announced. But Khanom, you of course, know all of this as well or better than I do.
In the 70's the NPS sought comment on a master plan for Yosemite that significantly reduced automobile traffic in the Valley. They are still working toward that approach and my visits over the last half dozen years using YARTS has convinced me the NPS has got it right. Over the next few years the existing gridlock will only become less and less intermittent and a method will be worked out allowing people to get both themselves and all their "stuff" into the Valley conveniently. I think the problem is - the stuff.
If there is a better method to get all this done more quickly, I sure can't see it.
PS:
Now that I am in JT it will be harder to make Facelift than before. But I just do not want the sheer pain of having a car in the Valley. That is the absolute pits. I may drive to the railhead in Bakersfield, leave my vehicle there, and proceed as before.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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I have found that if you roll up a crash pad diagonally starting at one corner, you can sometimes get them to go down a flush toilet.
jstan, demonstrating the needed technique.
Hopefully TGT isn't finding any pads in the plumbing at the Gordons'.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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ksolem, i don't think they're there. can you list them? look through gaines's recent book. i think you'd be lucky to find 3-4 sport routes in the moderate category.
modern beginning climbers don't have the background to walk up and climb the PG lines. pulling "balls" out of thin air is not the answer. most climbers these days just get into the sport in a much more controlled and measured manner. look at the injuries over the past year--several climbers in over their heads in moderate territory.
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jstan
climber
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Anders is not aware of the fact that crash pad is still in there. That one did not work. Beats me how to get it out.
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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The vegetation damage is almost certainly boulderers, and there's probably a bunch of it. An unfortunate side effect of the growth in popularity in bouldering. I don't think we need details on this. Everyone knows what happens. We just need better education about consequences. I climbed a bunch of times at Heuco before things got shut down there. Went once afterward. Not the same thing.
As for chipping, that's where specifics might be useful. MOst everyone frowns on this, so some specifics might help with prevention.
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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
www.climbaddictdesigns.com
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John - You're in JTree????
I saw a man yesterday in JTNP, alongside the main road by Roadside Rocks, and almost instinctively said "Hi John!" sure it was you... Then I thought "No...it isn't John." I am SO bad with faces that I almost asked this man if he was you, but embarrassment stopped me.
This man did comment about Teddy(small white terrier with curly hair) - asked if he climbed rocks too.
WAS it you?
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TYeary
Social climber
State of decay
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This is the tip of the iceburg.
If we don't collectively police ourselves, then the government will increasingly do it for us. Regardles of what prompted Bernadette's post, we need to hear what's being said. It is in our own best interest.
I would agree with Kris, bouldering pads cause more cumlative damage than bolts. I have personally lamented the day the Monument became a Park. And while I , like a lot of us here, have been climbing there since the early 70's, those days are gone. Berndette's message is a friendly heads up!
TY
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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I have personally lamented the day the Monument became a Park.
the flipside of too much climbing is crowds of basically apathetic tourists, i suspect an easy majority of visitors except during weekends in spring and autumn. most of them seem to wonder why JT is a national park at all. they come in their touramerica RVs, stop at an interpretive sign or two, tramp around hidden valley nature trail, spend one night at a campground, and then it's on to the grand canyon. it really isn't what the gotta-see-it-all people expect, but they come because it's a national park.
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johntp
Trad climber
socal
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lots of young climbers are scared to death of a trad rack, and i think with good cause. there isn't enough instruction and mentoring going on to make a significant difference.
I call this BS. We did it. And did it with stoppers and hexes. It's called working your way up to the grade and accepting risk. If a .11 gym climber wants to lead a .11 trad climb, they need gain experience with a trad rack on easier routes.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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I call it bs too. I learned with an army friend who was afraid of heights and we knew absolutely nothing. We started doing multi pitch (albeit easy ones) the first day. Way too much pampering going on.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Joshua Tree more than likely became a Park rather than a Monument due to the enormous popularity of rock climbing. So...now they want to make it into a pristine wilderness? If there are more routes available, the impact on the more popular crags could be reduced. I personally don't want to have the atmosphere in JT that persists in the Valley, re: getting tooled.
As far back as 1988, the Rangers were starting to do a bit of "muscle flexing" in the campgrounds. I was awakened one night in the Belle Campground by an obnoxious Ranger waking us up to ask if that was our van across the road, parked "illegally." No, it wasn't our van--my pickup was in our own parking space. Dumb fuk!
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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It's called working your way up
John, therein lies the rub or at least the word 'work'. You should know
better than to use four letter words here!
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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So, khanom, did B imply the Rangers won't be seeing any forthcoming
parking lot beatdowns?
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looking sketchy there...
Social climber
Latitute 33
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I can state for a fact that Bernadette is not talking about bouldering. And while some of the posted comments cover a variety of activities that the NPS has observed over the last number of years, most of the comments/speculations made are far off the mark.
Unfortunately, at least a couple individuals decided they were not satisfied to just bolt some remote wilderness routes. They reportedly, chipped holds, destroyed plants (including burning them), left campfire circles, constructed rock belay bench(s), and (imo) worst of all, chopped steps/holds along the base/approach to these routes. (Apparently, if you are climbing hard routes, you shouldn't have to be bothered with doing a difficult approach.)
These actions were way over the top and give every climber and would-be first ascentionist a Black Eye.
Yes, there are previously unreported routes (with bolts) going up in Wilderness areas. But, these routes have not -- as the overwhelming rule -- caused any significant impacts to the rocks or plants.
I could expound upon some of the reasons why unauthorized new routes have been established -- one could attribute fault to the NPS for its complete failure to abide by the past General Management Plans which provided for a Wilderness new route permit system --, but that does not in any way justify the type of resource abuses to which Bernadette refers.
Sport routes (hard and moderate) abound in Joshua Tree, contrary to misinformation up-thread. However, the presence of sport routes does not transform Joshua Tree's wild (and often Wilderness) climbing experience, into a gym, quarry or other compromised area that justifies permanent and gratuitous resource impacts of this type.
I am saddened by all of this and unfortunately all of us will pay a price for the indefensible actions of a few individuals.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Would I be going out on a limb to aver that people doing that shite don't
care what we or anybody says unless it is a judge?
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looking sketchy there...
Social climber
Latitute 33
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Would I be going out on a limb to aver that people doing that shite don't care what we or anybody says unless it is a judge?
I can't speak for them. But, sometimes there is a need for consequences for bad conduct. What those consequences will be is up to the NPS, and the particular circumstances at hand.
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Russ Walling
Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
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And the names of the perps are???
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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What those consequences will be is up to the NPS
And more than likely the majority will suffer for the sins of the few.
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