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FreeCoffee
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, CA
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Topic Author's Original Post - Mar 9, 2012 - 12:35pm PT
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The chipping, bolting, aggressive cleaning tactics, and vegetation damage in Joshua Tree's wilderness has not gone unnoticed by the park service.
For anyone looking to put a new route up in JT, please think twice - you are permanently altering the rock and impacting the area around the crag. There are already over 8,000 established routes - get to know the style and ethics of JT before imposing your own.
If you have any questions about the rules and regulations regarding bolts, fixed anchors, and new route development in Joshua Tree National Park, please email me, come to Climbers Coffee, or check the website.
http://www.nps.gov/jotr/planyourvisit/climbing.htm
JT Climbing Ranger
Bernadette
bernadette_regan@nps.gov
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ron gomez
Trad climber
fallbrook,ca
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Thanks! Words to listen to.
Peace
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caughtinside
Social climber
Davis, CA
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With zero specifics cited, the OP reads a bit like a threat.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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I seems to me she was rather specific and it certainly seems a relatively
friendly heads-up. I wouldn't feel threatened unless I had a guilty conscience.
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Doesn't seem threatening to me at all. Pretty polite actually.
With 8000 routes available, doesn't seem to be that much need to make your mark, unless it's some plumb that simply HAS to be done.
Then pay attention and do it in the most environmentally friendly way possible.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Thanks, Bernadette - friendly reminders about these sorts of things are always apropos, and if there are specific incidents/concerns/examples, please elaborate.
Just a thought, though. You're talking about behaviours and impacts - the end result of what may or may not be ethical decisions. Climbers (and others) often confuse ethics and behaviours/impacts. For climbers in many places, both ethics and behaviours are important. However, for non-climbers, the main concern is behaviours and impacts. A non-climber, or land manager, probably doesn't care much about whether you pinkpoint, onsight, or hangdog your way up a route, or wear the latest in climbing fashion ("ethics"). However, they care very much if you have an impact on the natural and human environments, and those individual or (usually) cumulative impacts become unacceptable.
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Gary
climber
"My god - it's full of stars!"
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what exactly are J tree "ethics"????
Try to leave the place in better condition than you found it.
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Chipping, heavy cleaning, vegetation destruction;....unacceptable. New route activity is legal in the front country, which is an area of already heavy use and sees most of the traffic. Back country new routes, while illigal at this time, have very little impact on the Park and the environment.......I am all for miminalizing our impact on the environment, and our resources, but I'm not a big fan of too much Gov. control of recreational uses that are fair and reasonable to our (not our government's) Nat. Parks and wild areas...
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neversummer
Trad climber
30 mins. from suicide USA
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^^^^^^there it is...
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Todd's done his best to spread out the crowds, by giving them more options.
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RtM
climber
DHS
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I have worked with the JTNP as well as California State Park for years now on climbing policy, and I am somewhat familiar with their methods of reasearching and monitoring.
I can say the the rangers will not allude to what they know, nor will the tell you what data they have collected.
I can say though that their method of collecting data is thorough and precise, remorseless, and for the most part - ubiquitous. They're not fooled by "previously unreported routes" or pre-dated FAs. They sit quietly in the background recording everything that goes on. They photograph, regularly, areas of high impact (and areas of predicted future impact); they regularly count all bolts (legal and illegal), old, new, and replaced.
Someday, they are going to bring all that data to bear!
This precisly why I encourage responsible climbers to get to know rangers and to let them know that there are climbers that are do care about such things. I also encourage climbers to speak up when they see other climbers infringing on the rules.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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If that's true, The Man knows who shat on top of Headstone, but they're keeping this to themselves.
That makes logical sense.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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can o' worms.
yea, RtM, the park service likes to be coy--maybe that's because they can't figure out what to do.
i can tell you one thing: lots of people don't climb at josh because there isn't any sport climbing to speak of. i work hard trying to get younger climbers into trad technique, but it's like swimming against the tide. there's too much sport climbing out there, and it just doesn't compete with trad. lots of young climbers are scared to death of a trad rack, and i think with good cause. there isn't enough instruction and mentoring going on to make a significant difference. and the list of sport routes at josh easier than 5.11 with bolts close enough to make the average urban sport climber comfortable leading it? c'mon, short, if not nonexistent.
lots of climbers come to josh and go away with the saddest look in their eyes. others wander around like the french foreign legion, with crashpads on their backs. climbers with much better bouldering ability than i have have told me they're not ready to touch trad--and may never be.
currently policy seems to be stuck in its past. i think a positive solution would be to give the weekend--and vacation--sportclimbers what they want: some well-bolted moderate routes in a few areas. the step after that would be to get them educated in trad so they can engage and enjoy this sport safely everywhere else. i battled inside the SCMA to take this tack for years, but the general feeling was that people should learn trad "on their own". most guide services similarly make the training hard-to-get and expensive. after all, climbing is about self-reliance and responsibility, etc. etc. but young climbers nowadays start in gyms and graduate to sport climbs outdoors and rarely go beyond that. climbing isn't what it used to be. i think it's time to acknowledge that and engage what it has become.
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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
www.climbaddictdesigns.com
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If that's true, The Man knows who shat on top of Headstone, but they're keeping this to themselves.
That makes logical sense.
^ hahah!
they regularly count all bolts
Speaking of shite - A few months ago, I was using one of the outhouses walls as a back rest while doing an ink drawing, and one of the cleaning crew came along. We chatted a moment. I mentioned there was very little TP in there and was glad he had come along! (FYI, yesterday I also noticed there was only enough TP in the one that is near Stem Gem for one more light poop, two female pees, or 1/2 heavy duty use..... but I did NOT count squares at any time!)
He told me, at that previous time, that there was a hiring freeze in the NP, and that one person on the cleaning crew had retired, so they were understaffed. Also that it seemed there was an increase in visitor use too boot.
I asked if the retired person would be replaced, to which he said "no - freeze is a freeze, regardless." He said they simply could not keep up.
So how is it possible that there is enough labor available to do a bolt count throughout the park when there isn't enough labor to keep the pit toilets clean and stocked with paper? That doesn't seem right to me. I am sure it is "politics" and LE may have a bigger budget than the Toilet Patrol, but it still doesn't seem right.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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fats--go away again.
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Push for better lobbying and legislation, but for Gods sake, until that happens FOLLOW THE RULES. The best way to keep the bullshit policies in place is to show the park service that those policies are necessary and we cannot self-govern.
We can, better than any user group in the park. Lets show that.
Greg (newb)
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TrundleBum
Trad climber
Las Vegas
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Joshua Tree:
Isn't that the outdoor climbing gym in L.A ?
YAWN !
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Tony, there's lots of sport climbs in Josh, and lots of stuff to TR too.
What there are not, and it is just the nature of the place, are roadside walls with a high concentration of sport routes all lined up Owens Gorge style.
You have to walk around.
How many folks would agree with me that the heavy handed use of pads is a much higher impact activity than bolts?
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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How many folks would agree with me that the heavy handed use of pads is a much higher impact activity than bolts?
Absolutely! The effect on vegetation can be far-reaching and, in the JT environment, very long-lasting. If bolts are camouflaged, as requested, I find their impact rather minimal.
As for the alleged vagueness, I found the OP, links and knowledge of JT plenty specific enough. I know of very few, if any, other wilderness users that have as much freedom to alter surroundings as we do. Let's not blow it.
John
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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+1 ^^^^
Word John.
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DonC
climber
CA
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new routes in the backcountry are illegal??
I often solo easy cracks, or top rope a face and leave no evidence of passage.
This is illegal?
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jstan
climber
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I have found that if you roll up a crash pad diagonally starting at one corner, you can sometimes get them to go down a flush toilet.
One important and very visual impact is the general trampling of an area when it is frequented by groups of climbers. This comes about because there is more standing than climbing being done.
Years ago I attended a meeting with the supervisor of JTNP. He was very open to comments but was pretty clear about what his job was. He said his job was to manage the uses being given the park and that this is what he would do. Speaking as a taxpayer, I concur fully with this approach to preserving our park lands.
Edit:
Why can't you bring up the specifics?
Because this is not how public lands are managed. I think it is this way because the preservation of a large area cannot be done piecemeal and it has to be done in an ordered process. When the authority starts a process they have to be able to lay out their work all the way to its completion.
The authority convenes the best technical advisors who examine all the usage data available and formulates several scenarios. Extensive public comments are obtained and the plan or plans to be adopted are announced. But Khanom, you of course, know all of this as well or better than I do.
In the 70's the NPS sought comment on a master plan for Yosemite that significantly reduced automobile traffic in the Valley. They are still working toward that approach and my visits over the last half dozen years using YARTS has convinced me the NPS has got it right. Over the next few years the existing gridlock will only become less and less intermittent and a method will be worked out allowing people to get both themselves and all their "stuff" into the Valley conveniently. I think the problem is - the stuff.
If there is a better method to get all this done more quickly, I sure can't see it.
PS:
Now that I am in JT it will be harder to make Facelift than before. But I just do not want the sheer pain of having a car in the Valley. That is the absolute pits. I may drive to the railhead in Bakersfield, leave my vehicle there, and proceed as before.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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I have found that if you roll up a crash pad diagonally starting at one corner, you can sometimes get them to go down a flush toilet.
jstan, demonstrating the needed technique.
Hopefully TGT isn't finding any pads in the plumbing at the Gordons'.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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ksolem, i don't think they're there. can you list them? look through gaines's recent book. i think you'd be lucky to find 3-4 sport routes in the moderate category.
modern beginning climbers don't have the background to walk up and climb the PG lines. pulling "balls" out of thin air is not the answer. most climbers these days just get into the sport in a much more controlled and measured manner. look at the injuries over the past year--several climbers in over their heads in moderate territory.
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jstan
climber
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Anders is not aware of the fact that crash pad is still in there. That one did not work. Beats me how to get it out.
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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The vegetation damage is almost certainly boulderers, and there's probably a bunch of it. An unfortunate side effect of the growth in popularity in bouldering. I don't think we need details on this. Everyone knows what happens. We just need better education about consequences. I climbed a bunch of times at Heuco before things got shut down there. Went once afterward. Not the same thing.
As for chipping, that's where specifics might be useful. MOst everyone frowns on this, so some specifics might help with prevention.
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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
www.climbaddictdesigns.com
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John - You're in JTree????
I saw a man yesterday in JTNP, alongside the main road by Roadside Rocks, and almost instinctively said "Hi John!" sure it was you... Then I thought "No...it isn't John." I am SO bad with faces that I almost asked this man if he was you, but embarrassment stopped me.
This man did comment about Teddy(small white terrier with curly hair) - asked if he climbed rocks too.
WAS it you?
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TYeary
Social climber
State of decay
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This is the tip of the iceburg.
If we don't collectively police ourselves, then the government will increasingly do it for us. Regardles of what prompted Bernadette's post, we need to hear what's being said. It is in our own best interest.
I would agree with Kris, bouldering pads cause more cumlative damage than bolts. I have personally lamented the day the Monument became a Park. And while I , like a lot of us here, have been climbing there since the early 70's, those days are gone. Berndette's message is a friendly heads up!
TY
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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I have personally lamented the day the Monument became a Park.
the flipside of too much climbing is crowds of basically apathetic tourists, i suspect an easy majority of visitors except during weekends in spring and autumn. most of them seem to wonder why JT is a national park at all. they come in their touramerica RVs, stop at an interpretive sign or two, tramp around hidden valley nature trail, spend one night at a campground, and then it's on to the grand canyon. it really isn't what the gotta-see-it-all people expect, but they come because it's a national park.
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johntp
Trad climber
socal
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lots of young climbers are scared to death of a trad rack, and i think with good cause. there isn't enough instruction and mentoring going on to make a significant difference.
I call this BS. We did it. And did it with stoppers and hexes. It's called working your way up to the grade and accepting risk. If a .11 gym climber wants to lead a .11 trad climb, they need gain experience with a trad rack on easier routes.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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I call it bs too. I learned with an army friend who was afraid of heights and we knew absolutely nothing. We started doing multi pitch (albeit easy ones) the first day. Way too much pampering going on.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Joshua Tree more than likely became a Park rather than a Monument due to the enormous popularity of rock climbing. So...now they want to make it into a pristine wilderness? If there are more routes available, the impact on the more popular crags could be reduced. I personally don't want to have the atmosphere in JT that persists in the Valley, re: getting tooled.
As far back as 1988, the Rangers were starting to do a bit of "muscle flexing" in the campgrounds. I was awakened one night in the Belle Campground by an obnoxious Ranger waking us up to ask if that was our van across the road, parked "illegally." No, it wasn't our van--my pickup was in our own parking space. Dumb fuk!
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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It's called working your way up
John, therein lies the rub or at least the word 'work'. You should know
better than to use four letter words here!
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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So, khanom, did B imply the Rangers won't be seeing any forthcoming
parking lot beatdowns?
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looking sketchy there...
Social climber
Latitute 33
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I can state for a fact that Bernadette is not talking about bouldering. And while some of the posted comments cover a variety of activities that the NPS has observed over the last number of years, most of the comments/speculations made are far off the mark.
Unfortunately, at least a couple individuals decided they were not satisfied to just bolt some remote wilderness routes. They reportedly, chipped holds, destroyed plants (including burning them), left campfire circles, constructed rock belay bench(s), and (imo) worst of all, chopped steps/holds along the base/approach to these routes. (Apparently, if you are climbing hard routes, you shouldn't have to be bothered with doing a difficult approach.)
These actions were way over the top and give every climber and would-be first ascentionist a Black Eye.
Yes, there are previously unreported routes (with bolts) going up in Wilderness areas. But, these routes have not -- as the overwhelming rule -- caused any significant impacts to the rocks or plants.
I could expound upon some of the reasons why unauthorized new routes have been established -- one could attribute fault to the NPS for its complete failure to abide by the past General Management Plans which provided for a Wilderness new route permit system --, but that does not in any way justify the type of resource abuses to which Bernadette refers.
Sport routes (hard and moderate) abound in Joshua Tree, contrary to misinformation up-thread. However, the presence of sport routes does not transform Joshua Tree's wild (and often Wilderness) climbing experience, into a gym, quarry or other compromised area that justifies permanent and gratuitous resource impacts of this type.
I am saddened by all of this and unfortunately all of us will pay a price for the indefensible actions of a few individuals.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Would I be going out on a limb to aver that people doing that shite don't
care what we or anybody says unless it is a judge?
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looking sketchy there...
Social climber
Latitute 33
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Would I be going out on a limb to aver that people doing that shite don't care what we or anybody says unless it is a judge?
I can't speak for them. But, sometimes there is a need for consequences for bad conduct. What those consequences will be is up to the NPS, and the particular circumstances at hand.
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Russ Walling
Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
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And the names of the perps are???
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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What those consequences will be is up to the NPS
And more than likely the majority will suffer for the sins of the few.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Russ has a good point. If the perpetrators are known (for sure), and if they knew or should have known that what they were doing wasn't appropriate (almost certain), they should be shamed by our community.
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rlf
Trad climber
Josh, CA
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I knew this was coming. It was only a matter of time...
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looking sketchy there...
Social climber
Latitute 33
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The reality is that there are a small group of people that may be responsible, but who actually did what (or anything) is currently known only to them. Since I do not know with certainty, it would be unfair and improper to mention any names.
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Russ Walling
Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
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So..... how can they be shunned if they are not outed? Let's point some fingers. Facts be damned!
So far:
They climb hard
They are lawless
The like comfort at the base
They are probably locals
They are probably known names
They have probably eaten at Santanas in the last 16 months
They have driven past Nomads
They like to be warm
They carry heavy packs
hmmmmm......
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steelmnkey
climber
Vision man...ya gotta have vision...
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Whew... looks like I'm in the clear!!!
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Russ Walling
Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
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^^^^^^^ bwahahaha!
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rlf
Trad climber
Josh, CA
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Well, the NPS has set their sights. That was made clear in the initial post, which was quickly edited to exclude the original finger pointing by the OP.
Poor etiquette for sure, and very questionable judgement to say the least.
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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Bernadettes a babe
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rlf
Trad climber
Josh, CA
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When I first saw the initial post there was some clear finger pointing that I'm not going to repeat. When I went back a few minutes later that portion of the initial post had been quickly edited and the statements had been removed.
As I said, very poor form on the behalf of the OP. I can't believe that I'm the only one who saw it.
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Srbphoto
climber
Kennewick wa
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Kill the pad people and turn them into the pink stuff they make chicken mcnuggets out of.
It's the only solution.
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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
www.climbaddictdesigns.com
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I thought I saw the post very soon after it went up. It looks the same - guess I missed it.
Or else RLF was reading the OP of the Wings of Steel thread and got mixed up!
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rlf
Trad climber
Josh, CA
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Good seeing you this morning Terry!
Naw, I saw what I saw. It did go away fast though. Not surprising considering the nature of the content.
EDIT:
I doubt we will be hearing anything more from the OP on this thread after the very initial post. My guess is somebody else from the NPS saw it and flipped.
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
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Was out at cap rock the other day and noticed some serious thrash trash up a couple of copper head practice lines. That rock is defaced for the next hundred thousand years.
I felt the shame for our community.
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
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Bernadette is hot and she can get you into the park for free, do not tell the district supervisor,
she also sends 5.11 like nobody's bidness,
you can get her autograph at bridfest 2.
lotta girls bitched out around town i notice, what gives?
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Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
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Mar 10, 2012 - 12:01am PT
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dang, looks like woodstock,
is that gram parsons sifting thru the rubbish?
viva las vegas,
vivaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa las vegas,
any fat elvis climbers at red rock?
Cosmic, the windshield water at the Mobil is weak, what to do?
we need a Professional opinion,
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Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
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Mar 10, 2012 - 12:03am PT
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i would lick the dust of of every square inch.
no pink slime here, just 100 percent USDA Choice.
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Moof
Big Wall climber
Orygun
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Mar 10, 2012 - 12:14am PT
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So don't put up routes, or NPS will go beyond:
1) Charging for campsites without providing basic services (water).
2) Frequent tooling, like frequently coming into my site from the back ways in a pathetic attempt to catch me off guard (hint, I don't smoke pot, stop invading the space you made me pay for, you are not welcome).
3) Using our tax payer paid hours to try and scout our illicit guiding to keep business coming your buddy's way. Hint: Just cuz we have a rope gun in our group setting up TR's doesn't translate to illicit guiding.
4) Setting up Gestapo check points near New Years and making us "show our papers". WTF?
5) Parading around their fire truck through HVG near New Year's as a thinly veiled threat of water cannon use on New Year's eve.
6) Sending NPS "climbers" up intersection to search for stashes after dark whilst sending fat agro LEO's after every flashlight, all while lying to us as to them not being NPS affiliated.
What next, Gitmo for hang doggers? Treat us as adults and with real respect (not just LEO pleasantries) a bit more often and we might surprise you by returning the favor.
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Russ Walling
Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
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Mar 10, 2012 - 12:28am PT
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Moof, obviously Tools are going to be Tools, but what about the rock? Chipping is total bullshit and should not be tolerated at all, zero.
So who is/are the chippers? Where is this defiled area?
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Moof
Big Wall climber
Orygun
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Mar 10, 2012 - 12:43am PT
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Just saying that it is hard to swallow an ethics rant from a tooling organization that has questionable ethics all too often.
Chippers, plant trampling Pad People, and the like should be strung up for sure.
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thebravecowboy
Social climber
Colorado Plateau
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Mar 10, 2012 - 12:50am PT
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dude, bernadette, don't taze me bro!
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strangeday
Trad climber
Brea ca.
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Mar 10, 2012 - 12:50am PT
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Was out at cap rock the other day and noticed some serious thrash trash up a couple of copper head practice lines. That rock is defaced for the next hundred thousand years. I felt the shame for our community.
Is that on the big boulder behind the parsons traverse? I saw a bunch of fixed copperheads and nuts there, and was kind of shocked. I figured that they were quite old. There's a lot of day tourists walking around there, and it seems silly to be doing aid practice in such an obvious spot, on really sketchy looking gear.
Edit: both of these are on that boulder, and less than 8' off the ground.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Mar 10, 2012 - 01:01am PT
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the pad people are here to stay. get used to them.
nice job of coming down on bernie here--so much for a chance for dialogue. this means you, robért.
go 'head and publish us a sportclimber's guide to josh, randy. it'll be a lot easier to be accurate with only a dozen climbs to deal with. funny how, with all the josh guidebooks we've got, no one can come up with the one for which there is the greatest demand.
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caughtinside
Social climber
Davis, CA
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Mar 10, 2012 - 01:03am PT
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Buy the Gaines guide. THere has to be a few hundred sport routes in there.
Of course they don't tend to be the fashionable, steep, big hold, soft grade kind of sport climb, it is Joshua Tree after all.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Mar 10, 2012 - 01:25am PT
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jeeziz, you people talk through your hats.
gaines's guide--best climbs, right? we're talking about the same book?--lists 21 sport climbs and 17 mixed trad-and-sport. of that list, there are 6 climbs easier than 5.9. that whole book only has about 100 routes in it.
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Russ Walling
Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
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Mar 10, 2012 - 01:27am PT
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They're all sport climbs, until you fall.
Edit: The soon to be published Flatus Press sport guide lists 144 routes considered "sport". That ought to hold you you clip and go guys for a while.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Mar 10, 2012 - 10:35am PT
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I just re-read the OP, and it still disturbs me. It's entirely too vague in many regards.
Is she pointing the Official Finger at just a small minority or everyone?
Granted, the environment has changed a lot since my first visit in 1982. The ground level has "sunk' at starts of many climbs--in many cases by a foot or more. i.e. "Butterfly Crack," on Trashcan Rock. In Indian Cove the "Gotcha Bush" is GONE. These changes are all due to climber impact, but (probably?) weren't done deliberately. Are we just suppoed to come and look at the rocks? If that's the case, her job just became superflous, and she can godo something eles.
Personally I decry any deliberate modification (chipping, brushing, gardening, etc.)to what's there for us to climb on. These persons whom Bernadette has targeted need to realise that not every square inch of rock is climbable "by fair means." To me..."by fair means" means an awful lot, and is part of the reason that I still climb, and still love climbing. To do otherwise simply brings the climbing down to a different level.
So, and in conclusion, to those chippers, brushers, gardeners...GFYS.
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WBraun
climber
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Mar 10, 2012 - 10:51am PT
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Isn't Joshua Tree heavily visited by the whole Los Angeles basin on weekends.
Everything imaginable crawls out of that place on weekends to the "fun spots".
Good luck trying to control that horde. :-)
A monumental task for sure.
I bet the people that do most of the so called damage pointed out in this thread don't even visit this forum nor care.
So a giant LED billboard should be constructed out on I-10 way before the 82 turnoff with the pertaining info to the problem.
Modern education for the modern idiots ..... :-)
Either that or cut Russ loose on em.
They'll never again do anything wrong again .... :-)
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Mar 10, 2012 - 10:57am PT
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i'm back in northridge these days, coz, or else i'd take your advice.
sounds like there's some kind of climbing subculture going on--hack work on the rock, pooping atop headstone--these things related? pretty obvious rebellious message being put out. the NPS, from my point of view, seems to have done a pretty good job of engaging the climbing community up until now. perhaps this post was just a way of putting a message out. perhaps i rather fondly hoped it might be a chance for dialogue on related issues.
So a giant LED billboard should be constructed out on I-10 way before the 82 ...
i'll bet morongo casino would be happy to rent LED time.
stay in yosemite, werner, where all is pure and pristine and you never have to deal with hordes crawling out on weekends.
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WBraun
climber
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Mar 10, 2012 - 10:58am PT
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Tweet? WTF is that sh!t !!!!
That's way homo.
Kick em in ass works every time.
I had to do it to Tucker one day.
Just ask Russ, he'll verify .....
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Mar 10, 2012 - 11:03am PT
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So...as a result we all pay the price of stupidity...again.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Mar 10, 2012 - 11:06am PT
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if history repeats itself, there'll be a thread on here in about 25 years ...
"i'm sorry i pooped on headstone. it was a dumbass thing to do, but i was young and i did what i did. i'm not proud of it, but i can't say i wouldn't do it differently if i had to do it over again."
this will surely be hashed from every angle into 2,000-3,000 posts. maybe 8,000, topping the number of alleged JT routes.
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WBraun
climber
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Mar 10, 2012 - 11:35am PT
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Take it easy coz.
NPS climbing rangers are not stupid.
They know how to filter thru climber bullsh!t.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Mar 10, 2012 - 11:36am PT
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As a major developer of JT and a former member of the AF board, I fought hard to help the climbers of JT.
Did it ever occur to you that land managers, and the public, aren't very happy about the use of the word "develop" in relation to natural, undeveloped lands?
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pyro
Big Wall climber
Calabasas
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Mar 10, 2012 - 12:04pm PT
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Poor ethics?
Lack of vision by the first ascentionists?
Perhaps a "I don't give a damn what others think" attitude?
quote came from levy!
i've put up only a couple of FA's in malibu and had to use glue due to the nature of the rock.
Jtree has a different standard.
please keep it real people.
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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Mar 10, 2012 - 01:52pm PT
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Bernadette makes a reasonable request here regarding responsible use of the park.
Chipping is lame and any as#@&%e that does it should be cast out of any climbing "community" on line or off.
Same goes for drilling to practice aid placements.
Reckless "gardening" is more of a misdermeanor but, should be frowned upon and not practiced.
New routes are going to continue to be put up in JTNP and the FA's should be responsible and pay attention to sensitive areas and consider all consequence of thier actions.
That said, Park officials will continue thier path towards the "Us vs Them" mentallity if we are reckless in our behaviour(s).
A HUGE, current issue in Joshua Tree National Park, has nothing to do with climbers. The amount of Tourists using the park is having a distinct and lasting effect on every available resource.
Educating the person that uses the park once or twice in thier lifetime is just as important as changing/improving the behavior of frequent users, IMO.
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jstan
climber
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Mar 10, 2012 - 02:53pm PT
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What time is the coffee? Not clear from the FOJT site.
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wstmrnclmr
Trad climber
Bolinas, CA
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Mar 10, 2012 - 02:53pm PT
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Is this site the climbing community? Is this post truly indicative of the climbing community as a whole or just the same 10+ posters? Most of us posting here are older and have been climbing there for years. There are so many more people climbing in JT since I started in '91 and I'm a relative new comer next to those posting here. So I agree with many of the posts but how to correlate and how to have true representation from the climbing community as a whole?
Personally, I think there are more then enough climbs of all stripes and we don't need more. Todd Gordon has certainly done his part to put up user friendly bolted climbs and although not my cup of tea (most of the pictures posted on other threads look more like bolted boulder problems)I think they certainly have their place along side the more traditional climbing that I prefer (if you haven't climbed Figures then you haven't climbed JT as far as I'm concerned) giving the park more than enough variety.
And the pebble pullers have there place as well representing possibly more of the younger climbers then any other form of climbing and should have fair representation along with their impacts being studied and weighed alongside all other forms of climbing.
Just a lot more climbers of all sorts that I don't think get represented here but need to be.
So NPS has it's place and are trying to at least gather data, good or bad that some form of concensus can be taken from because as GDavis says, we can't police ourselves. But this forum can possibly be a place to form consensus among itself at least and a starting point for others because hopefully we can work with the park and use what they get for a positive outcome. NPS has to deal with all use, not just climbers.
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jstan
climber
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Mar 10, 2012 - 03:05pm PT
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Khanom:
I once responded to what I thought was an event for volunteers. Nothing. Went down to Nomad and apparently all that was going on was a class about how to climb. While I could probably use such a class I wanted to work. Very confused. If not others, I certainly was.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Mar 10, 2012 - 03:24pm PT
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I know a couple things about that Intersection - Old Woman shot.
I took it ( using a kite to fly the camera ). It was taken almost three-and-a-half years ago; 11-28-08, to be exact. Things there may have changed a bit since then.
Here's a link to it on Flickr, which allows you to see a more high-resolution version ( click "actions", then "view all sizes" ):
http://www.flickr.com/photos/30901290@N03/3067662644/in/photostream
Here's another shot, from the same day, showing what's left of the Old Road south of Intersection:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/30901290@N03/3066792741/in/photostream/
I haven't done any KAP ( kite aerial photography ) around Old Woman / Intersection for a few years because I thought I had all the aerial shots of it I would ever need. I'll see if I can get some shots of that same area next time I'm out there, to see what the progress looks like.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Mar 10, 2012 - 05:22pm PT
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Coz-
it's awfully hard for someone who cares about Joshua Tree, but who also lives 1000 miles away to have an off-line conversation with the climbing ranger!
I just happened to find the original post somewhat obtuse in it's phraseology.
I also pointed out that MY personal ethic does NOT INCLUDE chipping holds, doing extensive gardening, wire brushing, drilling holes, or glueing on holds. I also believe that these 'ethics' pervade the community here on Super Topo.
I also don't like the idea of being accused of guilt as in a general broadside, and being tarred with the same brush as the "offenders."
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Mar 11, 2012 - 04:49pm PT
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OK.....We've pointing fingers, called people names, threatened people, argued,.....now what....
Here are some positive suggestions where we can go from here;
1) Stop pointing fingers at the "bad guys". Message has been sent, and I'm sure recieved by those who needed to get the message.
2) Don't attack the messanger. Bernedette is not the enemy, a bad person, or a tool. She is the climbing ranger for the Nat. Park, the go between for climbers and the Park Sevice, and she does all sorts of vital and cool stuff to make sure climbers have a voice, are educated about policy and environmental issues, and is a climber herself. (yeah, she's cute;...I guess those comments can stay....)...
3) Climbers CAN and do managed themselves, and don't always need gov. agencies to tell them what to do. In this case, local climbers have already gone out to the area in question, and "fixed" or righted some of the wrongs. (This was done yesterday, actually;....climbers DO care, and individuals can make an impact and a difference.) Big thanks to the individual(s) who orchestrated this positive action and gesture. Action can be as powerful as words, no doubt.
4) Lessons have been learned. No need to beat the dead horse.
5) As Coz said,....if you can, take care of climbing issues privately with Bernadette and among ourselves;....posting pics of problems and ranting and carrying on is ammo and fuel for the fire of more rules and gov. imposed regulations.
6) Do what you can individually and collectively to make climbing awesome, treat each other with respect, and work with and not against our gov. agencies. Work together as a tribe or group of same-minded folks who care, treat each other kindly and respectfully, and as a group who try to and can make good decisions.
7) Get over yourselves. Joshua Tree is one of the coolest places on the planet, is in pretty good shape considering it's close to L A and San Diego, and gets 2 million visitors a year. Yeah, it's got growing pains, and a few problems here and there;....let's work together to solve them in constructive , positive ways, respectful ways.
Todd Gordon Local hopeful, climber, and fan of the wild places out of doors.
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Russ Walling
Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
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Mar 11, 2012 - 05:03pm PT
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4) Lessons have been learned. No need to beat the dead horse.
This is the part that ain't working. The so called perps, if they are the guys who are being suggested as the culprits, are SERIAL F*#KING CHIPPERS. What have they learned in 20 years of being chippers? It seems not much.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Mar 11, 2012 - 06:19pm PT
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Bernadette, being a climber herself, is certainly aware that this kind of behavior is limited to the very smallest minority of climbers. Heck, climbers who do new routes are a very small minority, and among them people who chip, chisel, glue, landscape etc. are complete outliers.
Todd is right. Bernadette is a friend of, and an asset to the community.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Mar 11, 2012 - 06:25pm PT
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Kris-
That being the case...I'll definitely go out of my way to meet and thank her when I'm out for the Todd Gordon blast!
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Mar 11, 2012 - 06:27pm PT
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Rodger, Bernadette has at least once attended the FaceLift, so that may be another possibility.
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
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Mar 11, 2012 - 11:55pm PT
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Bernadette is one of us. She just so happens to have this government job.
Coz. has a good point to take this off line and I see the point but times are changing. I just heard an article about a think tank that works through problems with Internets forums and posts just like this.
Our online debates on this site provide an organic critical thinking computer. An intelligent person can easily pick through the crap and sort information.
Will this thread and others like it be used in the decision making process? I certainly hope so. The more who speak their mind the better.
IMHO - Father Figure is one of the coolest sport climbs ever created.
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Mar 12, 2012 - 12:30am PT
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To a large degree, this is about ego. Always weigh the impact on JT against you personal desires. Make a good decision.
Love it, cherish it, protect it. We always carry more out than we brought with us if we can.
Climbing is about harmonizing with the rock, not bending it, and the surroundings, to your will.
The smallest possible impact should always be a goal and an important measure of any climbing accomplishment.
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Russ Walling
Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
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Mar 12, 2012 - 12:49am PT
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IMHO - Father Figure is one of the coolest sport climbs ever created.
Are you saying it is chipped? "Created" is such a chippy type word.
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Mar 12, 2012 - 01:12am PT
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Yes. Make your choice.
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jstan
climber
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Mar 12, 2012 - 04:33am PT
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On ST you can find what you need in a dozen different places. I’ll quote a portion of something Ed Hartouni wrote.
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1746405&msg=1748288#msg1748288
The Facelift didn't just happen, it had been happening in bits for a while, a few people initially doing what they thought was right... and then getting other people to think and realize that we could do something, bit-by-bit, and have an effect
I have friends who don't participate in the Facelift, but do its work all the year 'round, it is, after all, the right thing to do if you are committed to preserving a beloved place.
But someone like Ken, who had credibility in both the NPS and the climbing community could come forward and make the effort coherent, the Facelift. He had the vision to see what was required to bring these different communities together based on the overlap of their values, and it worked.
A small observation of my own here. Out there working during Facelift everyone senses very directly that we need each other. One person alone can do very little. In that very demanding environment
no one has a harsh word for their compatriots.
Over and over again on ST you read the comment that face to face individuals are not at all as they seem on ST. The internet can and will be an immensely important tool allowing us all to achieve what is needed, some day.
But, right now, we simply do not know how to use it.
This thread is a part of a much needed learning process. It needs to be thought of as just one of the many steps we must take - together.
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
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Mar 12, 2012 - 09:49am PT
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Perhaps it is time to have a Facelift for Joshua Tree.
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WBraun
climber
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Mar 12, 2012 - 12:03pm PT
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How can you even do a facelift in Joshua Tree?
There's nothing there but sand .....
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Mar 12, 2012 - 12:05pm PT
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You could probably get Botox nearby...
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Mar 12, 2012 - 12:09pm PT
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It's gravel that's in Joshua Tree, Werner.
The sand all blew away.
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Blitzo
Social climber
Earth
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Mar 12, 2012 - 12:19pm PT
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Todd Gordon tells it like it is!
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Mar 12, 2012 - 01:06pm PT
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Khanom-
I've tried several time to log on to your link, and I keep getting an "Internal Server error" message, and that I should contact the site administrator. Hmmm? How can I do that w/o being able to reach the website?
I'm all for doing what ever is possible to restore some of the damage that's been done to the Monument/Park over the years that I've been visiting a favorite area of mine.
re: "Honey holes" around popular areas; perhaps it would mitigate some of the damage by just a few strategically located portable crappers? One at the far end of the Hidden Valley Trail Loop?
I for one am a "friend of Joshua Tree," albeit in an unofficial capacity. This unofficial status is reflected by my "lower case" in using the word "friend."
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Mar 12, 2012 - 01:12pm PT
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i have some sympathy for coz's frustration with the way in which fake avatars, n00bs or career incompetents use ST as part of a growing entitlement culture, but i don't see much inappropriate sharing happening in this thread, at least not yet (aside from a few predictable asshat rants about NPS fascism and a few nasty comments directed at bernadette by the ranks of the aging and anonymous).
a few obvious things:
1. This thread should demonstrate to anyone reading it, that the posters here easily and quickly established a consensus view against "chipping" and vegetation removal in the Park. That strikes me as a good thing, especially for climber-Ranger relations.
2. Todd notes that responsible locals have attempted to mitigate the damage mentioned in the OP. Tx to the crew and to Todd for the share.
3. Russ notes the obvious issues with scofflaws. Not much to be done here aside from the time-honored informal social mechanisms and the increased scrutiny those folks are now going to draw from NPS.
4. Climbers have basically nothing to do with the three most important factors driving impact generally in the Park, namely the re-branding of the Monument as a Park and the subsequent increase in visitation; the population boom in the low desert and inland empire of the last ten or 12 years; and the increasingly visible impacts of long-term climate change.
Local impact issues, like trail braiding, are among the types of things that the local community and the NPS seem willing to co-operate on.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Mar 12, 2012 - 01:17pm PT
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posters here easily and quickly established a consensus view against "chipping" and vegetation removal in the Park. That strikes me as a good thing, especially for climber-Ranger relations.
Chipping and vegetation removal in the park are already illegal, although perhaps sometimes not easy to enforce. Our views don't change that. It's what we do as a community to prevent such things happening in the first place that matters.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Mar 12, 2012 - 01:25pm PT
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Our views don't change that.
No, but it will matter to at least some land managers that the community is pretty clearly unified in its views. That's why I'm not as worried as Coz is about the existence of this thread.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Mar 12, 2012 - 01:59pm PT
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Yep-
The Flyer works, but I tried the home page again...without success.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Mar 12, 2012 - 02:51pm PT
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1. bernadette should not be shy about participating in a discussion, not just starting one. as chris pointed out, internet boards and their discussions can have very positive results.
2. joshua tree environmentalists take note: the park is overrun with nonnative red brome grass. you can probably thank the mchaney brothers' rustled cattle for making that possible 100 years ago. it's quite happy there, and it has displaced most of the native grasses in many areas. if you stay on the little climber paths, that's real nice, and it keeps it looking sorta wild, except for the little paths and signs all over the place, but what you're not stepping on in most places is red brome grass. dare i say, "big deal"?
3. a little history for you bolt noobs. as the sport of climbing developed (that word) in the 1980s, different ethics developed on either side of the atlantic. i don't know what they do in the british isles nowadays, maybe someone can tell us about that, but during the 80s, when we had our first bolting wars, it was noted that while americans felt no compunction about setting a line of bolts over a blank section of rock, the brits would chip a small hold or two and set nothing for protection. for aficionados of ballsyness, i'd say the brits had more. for aficionados of visual impact, probably tourons don't notice chipped holds as easily as a line of bolts. this controversy is a relative thing.
4. the continental euros who come to josh are used to places with a lot more bolts. i raised the subject of demand for sport routes earlier in this thread and was shouted down by various luminaries who haven't seen fit to continue the discussion. the demand is there, and it's the elephant in the living room, and i think that if todd gordon wants to maintain credibility in this discussion he ought to put more of his cards on the table. i've heard many times, all second-hand, that he's establishing a lot of new routes in many new places and plans to publish them in a guidebook of his own. his ethics appear to be impeccable, but i wonder if what bernadette had to say at the beginning of this thread is directed at him. she'll have to clarify herself if it wasn't.
5. josh's busiest, highest-demand campgrounds are located smack in the midst of the loveliest, surely most environmentally sensitive habitat out there. i'm talking hidden valley, jumbo rocks, indian cove. the decision to do this was done by the government long before it developed its current environmental sensitivity. decommission these campgrounds and restore these natural areas.
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caughtinside
Social climber
Davis, CA
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Mar 12, 2012 - 03:00pm PT
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WTF is wrong with you? Josh has several HUNDRED sport routes.
Decommission campgrounds? Sheesh.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Mar 12, 2012 - 03:08pm PT
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Tony might leave the impression that all the plants in JT were introduced by people and therefore no consideration of them is necessary...
I had posted a lengthy thread on various studies, here's a link to one that specifically discusses JT
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1487593&msg=1488903#msg1488903
My first visit to JT was in 1964, there were few climbers, and few campers of any kind... it had a wilderness feeling even with the Boyscouts around, it was a long and wild drive from Claremont CA...
now it is suburbs nearly up to the edge of the park, and huge numbers of people visit from a LA area which is probably grown in population 4 to 5 times since then...
overuse of these areas is a major problem...
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Mar 12, 2012 - 03:10pm PT
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Tony: i raised the subject of demand for sport routes earlier in this thread and was shouted down by various luminaries who haven't seen fit to continue the discussion. the demand is there, and it's the elephant in the living room,
Just because there is demand for a product doesn't mean it must be supplied, let alone in a national park - even if the environment is favourable. There is some bolt/sport climbing in Joshua Tree, and there's lots more within a few hours. For most visitors, they can get to other "sporty" areas as easily as JT.
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looking sketchy there...
Social climber
Latitute 33
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Mar 12, 2012 - 03:21pm PT
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As stated by Caughtinside above, Joshua Tree has hundreds and hundreds of genuine sport climbs. Most of them are at moderate grades (5.8 to 5.10+). Most people who climb at Josh with any regularly are aware of this.
Todd has been working on a putting together a Josh Sport Climbing Guide for a couple years (a good guidebook takes time), and with Todd retiring after this year, he should have more time to finish it up. Todd is probably the best person to do this guide as he knows more about most of the new routes than anyone else.
Todd doesn't need to justify himself to the ST audience.
Also, at this point in time (and under the circumstances), I'm not sure that anyone else is under any compunction to illuminate the ST pundits any further than is deemed appropriate.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Mar 12, 2012 - 03:36pm PT
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I for one would prefer to see the chipped and bolted lines "erased." Using something like the right color of tile grout would fill in the chipped holes, and ditto the scars from pulled bolts.
I'm definitely a "purist" in the "Old School" way. Climbing is done "by fair means", and from the "Ground-up."
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looking sketchy there...
Social climber
Latitute 33
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Mar 12, 2012 - 03:41pm PT
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Ed,
The Kamp-Knight "Study" was, unfortunately, fatally flawed and would not stand scrutiny -- at least where it compared plant diversity and communities on the cliff (as opposed to the base).
I don't really blame the researchers, but the NPS personnel who helped choose the "control group" (unclimbed cliffs) used in the study. For the most part, the "unclimbed cliffs" that were chosen were not representative or similar in characteristics to cliffs that had (or could have) climbing.
No methodology was used to insure that they were comparing apples to apples, so to speak.
While that seems like an impossible task, it is (and was certainly then) possible to use cliffs that had route possibilities, but were undeveloped. Further, the researches could have also utilized historical (pre-climbing) photographs of now popular climbing rocks to assist in determining whether they historically had plant communities growing on them.
Turns out, that a review of such photographs suggests that little was growing in the cracks and on the ledges -- pre-climbing.
None of this is to say that climbers have not had, and do not continue to have, a negative impact on plant communities at the base (or on cliffs). It is more that the study referenced was poorly designed which impugns the results.
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Mar 12, 2012 - 04:00pm PT
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So I'm curious, how does the NPS observer(s) determine that a route has chipped holds?
The rock is often friable. Flakes and chips routinely break off, typically leaving a small edge at the bottom or side and a larger unweathered area that was beneath. From a distance, and even up close, this can look like chipping if you aren't familiar with the nature of the rock or haven't spent time in other areas with an abundance of actual chipped holds.
Yet in the many hundreds of routes I've climbed here, or even looked at up close, I can count a total of two with actual chipped, manufactured holds. Both established by the same person, both well over 10 years ago and probably longer ago than that.
It just seems like a total non-issue to me...the "chipping" part that is.
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Damn this looks high
Trad climber
Temecula, CA
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Mar 12, 2012 - 04:05pm PT
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In my very limited experience as a climber, it seems to me that a chipped hold will make the climb easier while most of the naturally occurring 'chipping' makes the climb harder, i.e. a key hold breaks off turning a 9 into a 11a.
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looking sketchy there...
Social climber
Latitute 33
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Mar 12, 2012 - 04:44pm PT
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I agree with ECIYA. It is often times difficult to tell a "naturally" broken hold from one benefiting from a hammer blow, etc. Sometimes, chipped holds are evident, sometimes not.
However, you can use circumstantial evidence. If heavy handed techniques were used where not necessary at all (e.g., chopped steps), it is probably fair to say that such individuals would not hesitate to enhance holds on the route (where it would be of much greater "benefit"). As such, you could reasonably conclude that a suspicious hand hold on a route was also enhanced.
As for the other comment, sometimes a naturally broken edge makes a better hold than before, it all depends.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Mar 12, 2012 - 04:52pm PT
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While that seems like an impossible task, it is (and was certainly then) possible to use cliffs that had route possibilities, but were undeveloped. Further, the researches could have also utilized historical (pre-climbing) photographs of now popular climbing rocks to assist in determining whether they historically had plant communities growing on them.
Turns out, that a review of such photographs suggests that little was growing in the cracks and on the ledges -- pre-climbing.
sketchy, having lived with a researcher of plant ecologies for many years and discussed the details of the research, photographs are of little use to such research as it is not possible to determine what is going on, or not, in the photographs. There is no substitute to actual field work.
While the study may be "flawed" in a legal sense, in a science sense it represents a start to understanding the ecology of cliffs of which relatively little is known. The point of my other thread was to try to enlist, in anyway possible, the access that climbers enjoy with the biological community, limited as it is, interested in studying this particular habitat.
I do not subscribe to the belief that if you let them in they'll ruin everything for climbers... they may very well have good cause to recommend certain areas on cliffs be left alone.
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RtM
climber
DHS
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Mar 13, 2012 - 12:52pm PT
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In this case, local climbers have already gone out to the area in question, and "fixed" or righted some of the wrongs. (This was done yesterday, actually;....climbers DO care, and individuals can make an impact and a difference.) Big thanks to the individual(s) who orchestrated this positive action and gesture.
Thanks to these individuals (I think?)! I sincerely hope that these "wrongs" were not "righted" with more wrongs - because two wrongs don't make things right -
Right??!
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seth kovar
climber
Reno, NV
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Mar 13, 2012 - 01:02pm PT
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^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Werd
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Russ Walling
Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
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Mar 13, 2012 - 01:12pm PT
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Cos writes:and the many non climbing land managers-lurkers could be appalled, for no reason.
No reason? DId you see the steps hacked into the rock? They should be appalled. The whole circus out there is completely unacceptable, and they should take notice. The land managers should also notice that virtually all climbers are against what happened out there. That being said, there will always be illegal bolters and glue-ers, and they are definitely not held with high regard in the climbing community. ¿Sabe?
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RtM
climber
DHS
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Mar 13, 2012 - 01:35pm PT
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I agree with Russ and Locker - sweeping it under the rug and acting like nothing ever happened is just plain irresponsible "self-governing".
Responsible climbers need to take a stand, publicly, in full view of the Park Service.
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Gary
climber
"My god - it's full of stars!"
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Mar 13, 2012 - 01:52pm PT
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And they are serious problems, indeed. Outrageous, really.
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jstan
climber
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Mar 13, 2012 - 02:59pm PT
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If the NPS knows how the park is being used, Scott knows how it is being used, and "local climbers" know how it is being used, why should we not know how it is being used?
Just what is going on?
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Gary
climber
"My god - it's full of stars!"
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Mar 13, 2012 - 03:40pm PT
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A serious THRASHING of the PERP(s) would be in order...
So, who's the perps?
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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Mar 13, 2012 - 03:44pm PT
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This is how it works:
Problems arise.
Problems are aknowledged by NPS.
NPS posts on SUPERTOPO to warn of said problems.
Land managers are sent messages via the NPS, directing them to SUPERTOPO, so they can "Catch up" on the "Issues"
Land managers follow the thread, post for post, and make decisions based on the "FACTS" that are stated in the thread.
NPS and land managers threaten to close climbing there forever.
Elite climber diffuses the situation, through mediation and once again saves climbing in that location.
Repeat, preferably with more paranoia the next time.
Occupy those pebbles...
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jstan
climber
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Mar 13, 2012 - 03:53pm PT
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Not good to leave people with just their imagination.
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TYeary
Social climber
State of decay
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Mar 13, 2012 - 03:57pm PT
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(coz,
Was JT ever in jeopardy of being closed to climbing????
TheTool )
Transparency is what is needed. As stated, 'sweeping it under the rug" is only compounding the issues. I have no doubt that certain area's in the "Park" can and will be put "off limits" to protect the environment.
Taking a dump on the top of Headstone.....still trying to understand the idiocy of this act...I have participated in graffiti removal projects( AAC/SCMA/NPS), most notable at the "Patagonia Pile" formation.
I will be helping again, replanting vegetation near Hidden Valley later this month as well. I wish to continue to climb here without the red tape associated with the repercussions of insensitive and stupid acts of vandalism. I honestly believe those responsible for such things should be identified and forced to participate in environmental projects, until a specific number of service hours have been have been "paid back" to the Park. Like picking up freeway trash to work off a traffic ticket.
The NPS is not to blame. "WE" are. The NPS is going to do what they deem best for JT. We, through our collective "good behavior" and diligence, can help mold these policies, so as not to be too restrictive to climbers and climbing.
TY
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Mar 13, 2012 - 04:21pm PT
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Scott has a legitimate point - sometimes problems need to be discussed and resolved in private. With 20 or so years of access-related work up here, I'd say rarely, but sometimes.
I'd distinguish betweeen confidentiality for convenience - not really a good reason - and to protect the legitimate interests of the parties, and lead to a better result. The latter is sometimes OK, although again, if you want democratic buy-in by the people you purport to represent, at some point there has to be openness.
At the same time, as your founders and others often observed, sunshine is usually the best disinfectant. If any issue involves changing behaviours, by definition it needs to be out in the open.
I hope that climbers never descend to the depths of the ATV, hunter, snowmobile, birder and some other users, of pretending that we don't have impacts that need to be managed.
As for deleting the thread - well, that's Bernadette's choice. She clearly had reasons for posting, and it sounds like good reasons. Whether or not we thought the foolish behaviour of (I hope) a few should be public, doesn't really matter.
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BDoog
Big Wall climber
SoCal
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Mar 13, 2012 - 04:30pm PT
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What next? Amateur cremations beneath Cap Rock?
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Gary
climber
"My god - it's full of stars!"
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Mar 13, 2012 - 04:53pm PT
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Tony, great post!
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Mar 13, 2012 - 07:26pm PT
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This post reminds me of TMJesse asking on Supertopo all the climbers to stop trimming any tree branches that were across the trails. He explains that trimming a twig here or there can add up to quite a bit and is in fact ILLEGAL.
Hundreds of slanderous acrimonious posts by climbers claiming to support either the environment or the twig clippers and someone even outs a couple of people saying she knew who had a camp file in an illegal fire ring....on and on it went.
In what must be in the top 10 worst cases of bad timing as the online shitstorm rages the newspapers print a story that the NPS Rangers would soon be cutting down an estimated 1000 trees to improve the views for the tourists.
ROTFLMOA!
ps, agree with Cos, person to person or not at all.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Mar 13, 2012 - 07:38pm PT
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Since I first started climbing out at Josh in 1971, the population has expanded in both directions: the top end folk have kept getting better while the noob population has gotten every more frightened, lightweight and disconnected from any sense of climbing history and values.
On one hand we have visitors free soloing up a storm and flashing the testpieces in no time, while a precious few hackers get to chipping, and generally trash the place. It may be that those causing the problem simply don't know any better, having no association to the past. If it's the case that the harm is being done by people in the know, who are simply acting like idiots and poltroons, then it's time to get rope and look for a tall tree.
JL
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Mar 13, 2012 - 09:30pm PT
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The talk about "discussing this off line" was obviously NOT what the OP had in mind, eh?
The proverbial "cat is out of the bag" now, and what Locker has stated is the case with many of us here. We all DO give a schitt about what's happened to Joshua Tree, and many of us can become quite verbal about these things.
If Bernadette were NOT sending a message, then I don't really understand the reason behind it.
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WBraun
climber
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Mar 13, 2012 - 09:54pm PT
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I remember years ago there were some French guys bouldering and caking every stupid little edge with tons of rosin powder.
These particular wankers couldn't boulder worth the sh!t to begin with.
It was obscene the amount of rosin they were smearing into the edges screwing up the whole place.
I caught up with these guys one day and told them to knock off this rosin sh!t as it's not needed nor wanted because of the damage it was causing.
The stuff lasted years and made the holds slick as sh!t.
They told me to fuk off.
I came back a few minutes later with several people and we verbally laid it into them and they stopped.
Thus a thread like this is important because the word will get out to offenders .....
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Mar 13, 2012 - 10:01pm PT
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Note on the C4 Bulletin board bitd;
"Stop using rosin on the boulder circuit, or you will be encircled in violence!
Especially the french!"
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Curt
Boulder climber
Gilbert, AZ
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Mar 13, 2012 - 10:01pm PT
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...If it's the case that the harm is being done by people in the know, who are simply acting like idiots and poltroons, then it's time to get rope and look for a tall tree...
JL
I suspect that is also an unauthorized use of Joshua Trees.
Curt
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justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
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Mar 13, 2012 - 11:58pm PT
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Yes- it is indeed a violation to climb the Joshua trees BTW
JL: ...the top end folk have kept getting better while the noob population has gotten every more frightened, lightweight and disconnected from any sense of climbing history and values.
Oy- that quote reminded me of a conversation overheard just this last weekend (not at JT). Some loud-mouthed girl talked out her ass endlessly to her group for close to an hour. I was pretty annoyed and I am not easily annoyed.
At one point she said something to the effect of: "it's stupid they don't just rap bolt things and make them safe... this isn't like the old days where people had to do all that scary stuff" All but 1 in her posse seemed to agree. *(head palm)*
^^^The poster children for that "frightened lightweight disconnection" that John speaks about. They can clip their way up 5.12-hard so they think they are entitled to alter the entire climbing universe, to make it more convenient for their send.
No sense of history or values indeed.
I don't know what went down out at JT that set Bernadette off. Clearly it was something obvious and unacceptable. I'm happy to hear some locals took steps to rectify. I personally love doing restoration work and wish I lived closer.
There's 1000's of routes out there to choose from that required little to no cleaning, chipping or gardening. I'm happy to spend the rest of my climbing life exploring them.
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Shack
Big Wall climber
Reno NV
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Mar 14, 2012 - 01:20am PT
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Is it the same guys who put the bolt back on Double Cross?
That entry move is unsafe and scary with out a bolt there.
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Mar 14, 2012 - 02:28am PT
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Someday all the bolts on all those old classics will fall right off after we have been dead and gone for years, and then a few years later all the retro-bolts will fall off too.
The world is most DEF ending.
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FreeCoffee
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 14, 2012 - 11:34am PT
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The area of concern is under investigation. When the investigation is complete, I will be permitted to share more details. Thank you all for the discussion and especially to those who facilitated it.
If my OP came off as threatening, I apologize. When I heard of the damage - at this particular place - I was affected on a personal level. Your posts show that I am not the only one who feels passionate about keeping JT wild. I feel fortunate to be in a position to communicate with all interested parties.
Bytheway, Joshua Tree National Park has not counted bolts since Eric Murdoch's study in 2004.
http://www.metla.fi/julkaisut/workingpapers/2004/mwp002-18.pdf
Thank you Khanom for advertising the service project on March 24. We'll be planting about 200 native plants along the swath of old road near the Old Woman and Intersection Rock; as well as, delineating an access trail. The scar can easily be seen from the top of Double Cross, careful on the approach to that -- the bodies are really piling up.
Friends of Josh, AAC, and Threshhold Climbing Gym are among the volunteers signed up for the project. Saturday evening, Damon Corso is giving a slideshow in Joshua Tree proper -- this event is open for everyone, even if you don't have a chance to get your hands dirty during the day.
Be well,
Bernadette Regan
Climber
JT Climbing Ranger
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Mar 14, 2012 - 12:31pm PT
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thanks to bernadette for the follow-up post. doesn't sound like they're about to close the park to climbing.
and thanks to largo and maid skippian for helping to make the point i was trying to make. there's a generation gap in climbing. there are lots who are scared to death of a trad rack. get out there and engage the youngstas.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Mar 14, 2012 - 04:51pm PT
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Bernadette-
If I were not a climber, I would still feel protective of all the rest of the unique environment of the High Desert in addition to the rocks. I really have a special place in my heart for Joshua Tree.
But as a very trad climber, I'm personally offended by those defacing the rocks by chipping, aggressive brushing, gardening, and making a general mess of things. As one ages, the appeal of the high Alpine routes tends to fade along with a general decline in one's physical abilities. Fortunately Joshua Tree lengthens one's active climbng lifespan significantly. Does it bother me that I can no longer send a 5.10d? Yes, it does, but it also doesn't stop me from participating in the activity.
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mtnyoung
Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
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Mar 14, 2012 - 05:01pm PT
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Tony Bird: this is off the direct topic, but totally spot on:
"there's a generation gap in climbing. there are lots who are scared to death of a trad rack. get out there and engage the youngsters."
This is probably the key issue for the future of climbing as we know it. It's worthy of it's own thread. Well said.
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rectorsquid
climber
Lake Tahoe
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Mar 14, 2012 - 05:27pm PT
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At one point she said something to the effect of: "it's stupid they don't just rap bolt things and make them safe... this isn't like the old days where people had to do all that scary stuff" All but 1 in her posse seemed to agree.
Sounds reasonable to me. I don't agree but it still sounds reasonable.
Failing to understand someone else's point of view is the first step in a civil war. If you cannot see where they are coming from or why they think that stuff then you will fail to have any useful communications with them. You will also fail if you assume that you are right in a matter that has no physical proof to it and is only based on opinion.
Ignoring the stupid response of "That's the way it's always been done" or the response of "that's the way I like it", answer these questions:
* Why does a climb need to be dangerous?
* Why are bolts bad?
* Why are people with a different point of view always wrong if they are young or inexperienced regardless of their point of view?
I don't take their point of view. I just don't see it as being inherently wrong. It is certainly not traditional to grid bolts things but why are climbers, who should be rebels and dirtbags, so into tradition and so into following the rules set forth by a bunch of old guys that probably did things the old way because they had no choice.
Open your minds or be run out of town by a bunch of youngin's.
Dave
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Mar 14, 2012 - 07:05pm PT
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At one point she said something to the effect of: "it's stupid they don't just rap bolt things and make them safe... this isn't like the old days where people had to do all that scary stuff" All but 1 in her posse seemed to agree.
Sounds reasonable to me. I don't agree but it still sounds reasonable.
Failing to understand someone else's point of view is the first step in a civil war. If you cannot see where they are coming from or why they think that stuff then you will fail to have any useful communications with them. You will also fail if you assume that you are right in a matter that has no physical proof to it and is only based on opinion.
Ignoring the stupid response of "That's the way it's always been done" or the response of "that's the way I like it", answer these questions:
* Why does a climb need to be dangerous?
* Why are bolts bad?
* Why are people with a different point of view always wrong if they are young or inexperienced regardless of their point of view?
I don't take their point of view. I just don't see it as being inherently wrong. It is certainly not traditional to grid bolts things but why are climbers, who should be rebels and dirtbags, so into tradition and so into following the rules set forth by a bunch of old guys that probably did things the old way because they had no choice.
Open your minds or be run out of town by a bunch of youngin's.
Dave
I don't hear "a bunch of old guys" saying there is no reason or purpose for sport climbing. But the converse is also true because climbing does have a history, and only in the last twenty years has the "no risk" mindset been an option.
The answers to your questions are are amply provided not by "opinion," as though climbing ethics are merely ephemeral, subjective whims, rather by the traditions of rock climbing reaching back for over 100 years. These were influenced by the deep ecology movement and athletics, which never held out the promise that you could get something for nothing.
People can surely rewrite climbing traditions but they cannot negate the right of traditional climbs and climbing areas to exist in the first instance. So while the "youngin's" have a right to do as they please, they have no right to reengineer existing routes in order to curry the favor of manifest chickenshits who believe that only duffers are daft enough to brook risk, commitment and a sporting ethic for climbing.
JL
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Mar 14, 2012 - 07:21pm PT
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JL-
Unfortunately the Nanny State mentality is now encroaching into our realm.
"Risk is bad, risk is...DANGEROUS!" Would a climb such as Stichter Quits still be the "same climb, only safer" with 3-4 more bolts added? I say no!
The risk is part of the reward.
One of my best memories of Joshua Tree climbing was a lead of Lickety Splits; it would be forever ruined with the addition of ONE bolt.
Just another one of my rants...
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Gary
climber
"My god - it's full of stars!"
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Mar 14, 2012 - 07:25pm PT
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Bad example, Stichter Quits is a very safe climb. There's a bolt at each crux move, the runouts are pretty easy.
And this is coming from a wimpy Josh 5.7 leader!
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steelmnkey
climber
Vision man...ya gotta have vision...
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Mar 14, 2012 - 07:26pm PT
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Right on Largo. Well said.
It's sort of interesting that in the early days of sport climbing, when the tables were sort of the opposite of what they are now, the rap bolting crowd used the argument "why can't we all coexist?" and "we can have both types of areas". It seems incredibly ironic that 25 years later, the "trad" crowd is now trying to use the same argument with increasingly little success.
What is "dangerous" is often in the eye of the beholder as well. There is no concrete definition and most of it ain't like porn, where you'll "know it when you see it."
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gonzo chemist
climber
Fort Collins, CO
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Mar 14, 2012 - 07:43pm PT
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Sphincter Quits? Nah....there's a bomber #3 micro nut available at the crux. Perfectly safe...just make sure you have that damned #3 micro nut.
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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
www.climbaddictdesigns.com
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Mar 14, 2012 - 08:00pm PT
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...they have no right to reengineer existing routes...
Except that this is just what is going on, in some cases.
On another note, we had a section of the Mohonk Preserve closed to climbing(bouldering) last year because some people did not care enough about the natural setting to act accordingly.
From what I understand(and I may not be fully accurate, so if someone who knows better corrects my words, I will stand corrected), this was an are that was off-the-map to most people, and a very old-growth, delicate moss-filled rocky area. Bouldering, not 5th class. Some people discovered the place and decided to develop bouldering problems.
Problems certainly did develop, because the cleaning went so far as to remove massive amounts of the moss to the point where the boulders were pretty much cleaned completely.
They wanted to have their lines, and f*#k'em if the moss was picturesque, and ecologically sensitive. Did not go to the preserve and ask about the area, but cleaned and climbed, and the damage was done until it came to the awareness of land managers. Too late of course - Moss ain't like sod that can be laid in place and grown into a lush carpet with care.
I have done one day of trail work with some of the people who likely were in on that, when the Rosendale Water Works area was being readied for access. We were there to do basic trail work, but of course it was expected people would climb a little. One guy was directed to "go up and clean the top-out" on a boulder they wanted to try some lines on. The person asked to borrow my work gloves, and proceeded to trash them as he completely bared the top of bramble that had built up over the years. Not just enough to top out from the line he'd done - but bared the entire top.
It did not even come under consideration that maybe that was not the way to go. Of COURSE it was the way to go, in their minds.
The young ARE the up and coming. But I think it is really important for the industry leaders(YES, the companies - I'll say why later) to recognize and promote by sponsorship a selection of those climbers/boulderers who understand impact and minimize it on places they develop. And that those sponsored athletes should be using part of their media exposure to educate and promote minimal impact ethics.
The "sport" HAS changed. For one thing - and "hot climbers" do not earn their stripes by doing, as was the way in the past. They are coming out of gyms, getting sponsorships and then being told to go get it outside. After all - can you imagine anyone over 16 being a sponsored GYM boulderer? Climbing magazine filled with images of people clipping 5.14 GYM routes?
As well, the internet has allowed regional climbers to gain exposure via discussion/image boards, blogs and videos. Go on You Tube and look at the top "sick climbing/bouldering videos" and see how much content about being aware of the environment is involved.
There may be some beautiful scenic imagery shot from the creative videographer, but you don't hear the climbers discussing minimal impact in any way.
Is there any top climber/boulderer who takes a position publicly on impact issues? Why are the companies who sponsor these people not asking for at least a modicum of "leave no trace" ethic?
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Mar 14, 2012 - 08:00pm PT
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Style and tradition, old and young, n00b or vet, it still comes down to being responsible with a critical resource.
At what point does one's "safety" or conveince outweigh the impact on the environment? This is a point that is not easily identified, but needs to constantly examined and discussed.
People have different comfort levels with risk. If bringing a route to your comfort level is chosen over developing the skills to climb it, and establishing that level of comfort damages the environment a line has been crossed.
Maybe there are places where that is acceptable, but not JT.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Mar 14, 2012 - 08:03pm PT
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Point taken. The last time I climbed Stichter Quits, it was still Black Tide. However recent posts over on Mountain Project are claiming it's a 5.8+, PG 13 these days, and our own Dee ee suggested a 5.9 rating. There is a possible nasty ankle and leg breaking fall before reaching the first bolt.
Oh woe is me! That's the claim of "modern climbers!" We don't wanna' get hurt! But to quote Locker...
Yer
Gonna
Die!
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TYeary
Social climber
State of decay
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Mar 14, 2012 - 09:45pm PT
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Safety lies between one's ears.
TY
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jstan
climber
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Mar 14, 2012 - 09:55pm PT
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ssooo anyone got a pic of Bernadette???
Bernadette stayed at or near C4 site 30 on a couple of Facelifts so I have some observations to offer.
What we have is a very large, and serious, bureaucracy( the NPS) interacting with climbers, a group determined not to be classified as a group. An existentialist drama if ever there was one.
Bernadette, a very lovely young lady, is very serious, She is always working. She is going to do good things. Of that there can be no doubt. Possibly she is very unlucky to be located at the point where climbers intersect with the NPS.
But we, are very lucky that she is where she is.
We need to draw a distinction between what amuses us and what it is that we absolutely must achieve.
And then work with her.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Mar 14, 2012 - 11:29pm PT
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I'd say that, more importantly, it comes down to personal opinions on what "responsible" and "critical resource" mean.
These are dependent on belief systems and values, which vary from person to person.
This is largely so IMO but I reject the proto-post modern idea that all such things are merely social constructions that can be interpreted many ways, each equally true.
Case in point, "responsible" or at any rate, "ecologically conscious," simply means that seek to limit your impact to a place to a bare minimum. There isn't a great deal of wiggle room here for "interpretations." You either basically leave the place like you round it, or you don't.
I climbed over a hundred FAs at Josh and hardly ever had to use bolts. But at that time we could do ten FAs in a day if we wanted to do and not leave Hidden Valley.
JL
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Mar 15, 2012 - 12:00am PT
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Like Largo I started climbing in JT in 1970. I have seen the evolution. I have climbed many FA's and can count the amount of bolts I personally have drilled on my fingers and toes. Some by hand and some by power. I don't do as many FA's as a lot of my friends.
I have climbed other people's routes with bolts and loved them. They were placed on a natural line in harmony with the rock, and with what it allowed. There is something really special about climbing a route and leaving minimal trace (other than maybe some chalk).
When nuts became available, we gave up pins. When cams were invented, nuts were relegated to a different place on the rack, but still there.
Bolts were reserved for places where there were no other options. For stances (real or hooked), or anchors on a blank face or summit.
Minimal impact should be the ethic to preserve the beauty of rocks and surrounding environment.
I know this is subjective, but I have to keep putting it out there.
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Gary
climber
"My god - it's full of stars!"
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Mar 15, 2012 - 11:18am PT
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TY: Safety lies between one's ears. Boy, am I in trouble.
Brokedownclimber: Point taken. The last time I climbed Stichter Quits, it was still Black Tide. However recent posts over on Mountain Project are claiming it's a 5.8+, PG 13 these days, and our own Dee ee suggested a 5.9 rating. There is a possible nasty ankle and leg breaking fall before reaching the first bolt.
I did see a girl from New York sprain her ankle there. Still, there's no way that it's 5.9. I could never lead 5.9 at Josh.
Sorry to go off on a tangent, this is a very interesting thread. I'll try to make the climber's coffee Saturday.
edit: stzzo makes a very good point, which lies at the heart of the matter.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Mar 15, 2012 - 12:02pm PT
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stzzo, you're leading us into a gray area which has become a favorite peeve of mine.
personally, i pick up others' trash--occasionally--if there isn't too much of it. when an area gets really bad, i think it's time to organize a cleanup.
but i also step back another step and look at the culture and what the culture is doing. dennis banks, the great american indian movement activist, used to complain that his home reservation in south dakota was practically covered with pampers. mothers would throw them out--just as they may have done with waste back in teepee days--and the wind would blow them everywhere. old tribal life involved moving from a site when it got too worn. then the area would recover naturally. such behavior is part of culture and it's hard to change.
so let's look at what white man culture does. what's worse--pampers--mostly tree fiber--and babysh#t, or a nuke spill into the pacific ocean such as we were treated to by the japanese a year ago, and which might easily happen here at san onofre?
the environmental movement has turned to gazing at its own navel, concentrating on the pretty little places and letting the rest of the world go to heck. that's because it's up against political forces which fail to respond so that a policy of integrity can be worked out. i'm talking about industry and effluent and air pollution, the latter which could have been gotten under control years ago if someone hadn't killed the electric car.
watch that movie, who killed the electric car.
and check my post at the end of this thread, which compares the big hoopla over a little frog habitat with what really happens when big money is part of the equation.
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1459010&tn=80
so, yea. keep joshua tree clean. but there are much bigger battles out there. please don't forget them, or think that you are doing enough by being a neat park visitor.
------------------------------
sorry for a long post, but this thread is worth three good threads and a million "somebody kicked my dog" trolls. if you're bored by tony bird, just go down to where locker reminds you about what yer gonna do.
i went over to the echo area with a couple friends from the pit last year. they were young people, had been climbing a bit--clark jacobs took them under his wing for a week, so you can bet they were well-primed. but, come to find out, neither had done a lead climb yet. so she undertook stichter. she took quite awhile, but managed to clip that first bolt. then she took a fall on it. that's enough for now.
then her boyfriend stepped up and sent the whole thing smoothly like he'd been climbing for 150 years. it was his first real lead on real rock. beautiful.
prior to that, i led stick to what. i had climbed it, maybe even led it, couldn't remember, more than 20 years ago and wanted to revisit an old friend. wow--what a bracing old friend. what i noticed is that, once you figure out that first, bolt-protected move, each subsequent move over the 20-30 feet to the next bolt is just slightly easier. that makes it a real classic. if i had fallen in that territory, it would have been nice to have had a belayer practiced in running off to shorten the catch to prevent it from being a grounder. a dangerous climb. the NPS interpretive sign at the echo parking lot calls it a 5.9; it used to be considered a 5.9 slab classic. miramontes puts it at 10aR. gaines doesn't even include it in best climbs--perhaps it has broken a lot of bones over the years.
gaines does include stichter quits and nearby double dip, which he rates 5.6PG. i've never climbed double dip, but i can only imagine noob sport climbers here from europe or rockreation confronted with what they hope might be a "sport" wall with these bracing routes on it. and the rumors i hear about gordon's climbs is that--hehehe--mighty sporty, my friends, mighty sporty.
----------------
anyway, one last bit here, turning over the stage to willis keys, son of the late and noteworthy bill keys, and art kidwell in growing up at the desert queen ranch, available at the NPS visitors center:
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Mtnmun
Trad climber
Top of the Mountain Mun
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Mar 15, 2012 - 12:59pm PT
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Walk softly and carry a big stick clipper.
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WBraun
climber
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Mar 15, 2012 - 01:02pm PT
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But all those stonemaster guys did all the first ascents.
There's none left!!!!
I must chip new route.
Whaaaaa, I hate those stonemasters ......
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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Mar 15, 2012 - 01:28pm PT
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Ironically, I think desert racers can teach desert climbers a thing or two about envornmental awareness.
There is no ambiguity in the meaning of "responsible" behavior in the desert racing community.
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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Mar 15, 2012 - 02:00pm PT
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Bernadette is living proof that the latest generation can and does care about our natural resources.
When we degrade younger generation(s), we only serve to degrade our ability to teach.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Mar 15, 2012 - 02:19pm PT
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JL, I understand what you're saying, but I'd say that there are people who don't equate "ecologically conscious" with "responsible" -- people who think the land is to do with what they please, and that doing so is not irresponsible.
I actually think that this kind of logic only exists on paper and academia, and is not something that is practiced in the real world. For instance, I think we can all agree that leaving something as we found it is "ecologically conscious," insofar as that term denotes attempts at preserving the as-is status of our limited resources. Now if some trashes said resources, and calls it "responsible," or does not consider it irresponsible, we simple move to his very house, or car, or computer, and burn it to the ground and say, "Hey, that';s not irresponsible." Of course we cannot do that because, as mentioned, in the real world we have a common-usage understanding of things that is derived on how we live our actual lives, and no sane person lives as though all of his stuff needs not be preserved whatsoever, and that to burn it all to ashes is not "irresponsible."
In the case of the outdoors, many people simply believe that because no one "owns" the place, they can trash it at will. These are the disenfranchised who do not understand that the very stuff they thrash is no different than their own home, since both belong to them.
JL
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Murf
climber
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Mar 15, 2012 - 03:39pm PT
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Do you people climb at the same Joshua Tree that I do?
Every day out this year I've climbed new routes (new for me at least).
Every day out this year I've had a crag to myself.
Every day out this year I've climbed a route put up in the last decade (some the same week) that was very worthy .
Every day out this year I saw new(ish) climbers who were competent.
On no day out this year did I share a crag with someone I didn't want to.
On no day out this year did I see a chipped hold.
On no day out this year did I take a dump on Headstone.
I was only runout when I had decided to be challenged in that way, and that rarely. My point being that there are tons of well protected routes at all grades.
Granted that was only about 10 days total all on weekends, but still...
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looking sketchy there...
Social climber
Latitute 33
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Mar 15, 2012 - 05:00pm PT
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While I'd rather this thread fade into the sunset, there is so much misinformation being posted, that I feel compelled to address some of it.
First, the commentary by people who don't even climb at Josh, nor have any idea what is going on, is so far off the mark that it would laughable if this were a laughing matter. [E.g., you don't see me opining about Woodfords Canyon.]
Second, the impacts that precipitated this thread by Bernadette were not perpetrated by newly minted sport climbers. These people have been around for decades.
Third, there is tons of potential for both new cracks and face climbs in the Park. The idea that a new crack route is less impactive than a new face climb is utter non-sense and not only unsupported by any actual data, but contrary to the one study actually conducted.
As an environmental matter, there are four potential areas of impact caused by climbers climbing a particular route:
1. Impacts resulting from the travel to the crag (informal vs. formal trails, and trail braiding). These impact plants and animals in a variety of ways.
2. Impacts at the base of the climb/crag. Depending on: (a) The type of surface along the base (rocks/boulders) or sensitive soils and plant communities, and (b) the amount of traffic: Impacts may be anything from non-existent to significant.
3. Impacts on the route.
A. On a crack, there may be plants and/or animals living in the crack (or there may be neither). Plants are most affected and the impact to animals is variable.
B. On a face, there may be small spiders, lichen and other such life behind flakes and on the face proper. At Josh, in most cases, the face is largely barren of in-situ life. Impacts tend to be minor or non-existent. To the extent that bolts are used as fixed protection, there is a very minor physical impact (which could be largely remediated if desired), and a visual impact (which can be largely remediated through use of painted and/or naturally colored hangers).
C. Chalk use. Chalk is a visible impact on both cracks and face climbs, but is as a general rule much more noticeable on face climbs. In most cases, chalk washes off non-overhanging routes.
4. Impacts on Descents.
A. Downclimbs. Sometimes a descent involves down-climbing rock and has little additional impacts. Many times there is some additional impacts resulting from a downclimb (even if limited to only the base area).
B. Rappels. Rappels down the route tend to have little impact on plant and animal communities at Josh (unless rappeling off trees or bushes). But, they then usually require some manner of fixed anchor which does result in an additional impact related to the fixed anchor.
It is my opinion, but one based upon facts -- rather than on a personal preference for either cracks or face climbing (I like both) -- that crack climbing has far greater potential for impacting plant and animal communities than face climbing.
Edited to ADD:
Factors Leading to Route Visitation. (1)It seems that distance from the road is the single most important factor in determining a route's popularity. (2) The second is the technical grade (moderate routes attract the overwhelming majority of aspirants). (3) The perceived quality of a route is a far, far, far distant third.
The fact remains that in Joshua Tree Wilderness, 90% of all climbers climb the same 5% of the routes (actually less than 5%).
The long and short of this is that climbers (and people) who profess to be anti-bolt in the name of impact control, may find that their arguments have little real world support. But, like anything, it depends.
Just like politics and religion, "beliefs" are often more powerful than fact. With climber impacts and resource protection, beliefs [EDITED TO ADD: or "personal preferences"] should have little place in the discussion.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Mar 15, 2012 - 05:06pm PT
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Don't forget the impact on the planet of driving there.
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looking sketchy there...
Social climber
Latitute 33
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Mar 15, 2012 - 05:11pm PT
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MH,
Yes, human waste, garbage and just being in the proximity of some animals can cause impacts. Though these types of impacts are implicit in what I said, perhaps I should have mentioned them specifically.
Still, whether I sh!t or P on the way, at the base, or on top, of a face or crack route is the same impact. Same with trash and disturbing wildlife.
Most significantly, these types of impacts are the same whether I'm hiking, bird watching, or engaging in some other use of the outdoors. As such, it is misleading to emphasize those issues when specifically discussing "climbing impacts."
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Mar 15, 2012 - 05:18pm PT
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Lots of us know Khnom, Coz, you need to get out more.
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looking sketchy there...
Social climber
Latitute 33
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Mar 15, 2012 - 05:22pm PT
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Khanom, Yes, bolts can cause a visual (and physical) impact. But, a properly camouflaged bolt and hanger is essentially invisible to any observer (sometimes to climbers). Chalk is far more visibly intrusive, even if often seasonal.
Bolts often are more of an existential problem than a real resource impact problem per se.
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Mar 15, 2012 - 05:27pm PT
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Am I the only one that finds it a tad disrespectful to start a thread as a government rep, throw out some veiled threats in that thread, and then refuse to engage in the conversation you started?
Or am I just missing the further contributions from Bernadette?
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Mar 15, 2012 - 05:32pm PT
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The OP wasn't about a random new bolted line. It was about steps hammered into 5.6 terrain to access the "real" climbing, rock furniture, fire rings and what in all probability was an "improved" long term campsite deep in the wilderness.
It has sparked a good discussion on overall impact though.
In the 40+ years I've been climbing there, the most obvious impacts are the now numerous approach trails and microtrash.
It seems like the biggest impact is from just getting to the crags.
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froodish
Social climber
Portland, Oregon
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Mar 15, 2012 - 05:35pm PT
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Or am I just missing the further contributions from Bernadette?
Yup
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Mar 15, 2012 - 05:42pm PT
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perhaps part of the josh dilemma lies between the ears of male climbers.
a famous female climber once remarked, to the effect, that guys tromping every last bit of stony countryside to "put up" routes was the equivalent of marking territory, "like dogs peeing".
get yerself a good hypnotist. teach yourself to think like god. meister eckhardt: "to god, all things are new". that way you can walk up to a rock, and it'll actually be the first time it was ever climbed, thanks to your self-hypnosis. you won't be fitting yourself into the subjugation you imagine towards the FA demigod and everyone else who has climbed the sucker since.
when i started guiding at josh last year, the report was that there were 4,000 climbs. by the end of the year, the report had gone up to 8,000. if you go by the reports on this thread, it's gone from 8,000 to 10,000 since the thread was first posted. a crisis indeed!
try this one for size. hike into the heart of the wonderland of rocks. or hike into a side canyon of the sierra nevada. climb something, if you have basic trad skills. don't name it. don't tell anyone else about it. don't even go back to it, 'cause probably no one else ever will.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Mar 15, 2012 - 06:07pm PT
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maybe respected...
Then again, maybe not.
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Mar 15, 2012 - 06:44pm PT
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she came back to explain why she couldn't say more. Coupla pages back
Gotcha, I missed it.
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Mar 15, 2012 - 06:52pm PT
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Let's see what's on TV.......so go the fridge, get yourself a beer or 6, sit down, turn on the tube, and let's give it a rest here;....I believe it's time to move on......(Good post, Murf)........go fix a sandwich too.....and move along;....have you seen the Why Are Republicans Always Wrong Thread lately?.....it's really cool....
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Mar 15, 2012 - 07:21pm PT
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While I'd rather this thread fade into the sunset, there is so much misinformation being posted, that I feel compelled to address some of it.
Thanks Randy, I've felt the same way about this thread. It's all over the map on an important issue and I was going to try to inject some perspective and realism, being a JT climber with a history that runs from the bitd era of the early's 70's -- and damn, that was a great time -- right through to today.
I also -- being a 25 year career NPS operative with a pretty solid background on where the agency stands, vis-a-vis climbing management -- know the implications of this rather trivial (in the big scheme of things) situation and it's ability to effect large-sale changes in park climbing managemet policy.
You have very effectively articulated most of the points I would have made.
I would also add that nothing short of some deranged climbers drilling and dynamiting every formation in hidden valley down to rubble would ever result in a wholesale ban on climbing in the monument.
I'd also add that Josh has always been, and always will be, a far more significant natural feature of our glorious little planet than it will ever be as a climbing area. My most transendental moments in Josh occured while the rack and rope were packed safely away, and I was just drinking in the mind-mending vibe of the place with close friends, and some minor chemical chakra enhancers.
Just my .2 cents.
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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Mar 15, 2012 - 08:20pm PT
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Joshua Tree needs supporters like Bernadette.
It has been an important part of my life and I am grateful for this.
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jstan
climber
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Mar 15, 2012 - 08:40pm PT
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Well, he is obviously jealous of my climbing ability,
As a matter of fact Khanom is entirely adapted to the climbing he does. As you would expect for someone who climbs a lot.
While his being jealous might occur to someone who does not know him it does not occur to me. There is another possible explanation for his comment. That reason may be more related to yourself. Here, I don't know you, so I have no way of knowing.
I think we need to focus on an open question of great importance. How are we to preserve our national heritage?
Edit:
+1 fpr Pud and BVB nails it.
Climbing is just a small part of what JTNP offers us. The NPS knows that. Climbers need to agree on this - before it is gone.
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looking sketchy there...
Social climber
Latitute 33
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Mar 15, 2012 - 08:45pm PT
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Hey Pud, great shot of the Split Rocks area.
Looks like you are on top of Overbolted Rock -- ironic?
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Gary
climber
"My god - it's full of stars!"
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Mar 15, 2012 - 08:46pm PT
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Second, the impacts that precipitated this thread by Bernadette were not perpetrated by newly minted sport climbers. These people have been around for decades.
That's very disturbing. I considered Joshua Tree a special place even before I started climbing. It's a wonderful experience to climb a formation there, and then drink in the view from the top.
Purposely defiling it is criminal in many ways.
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henny
Social climber
The Past
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Mar 16, 2012 - 02:08am PT
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One of the reasons for less well protected bolt routes (in addition to where the stances were) was the desire to minimize how many bolts were placed. One used to pay the dues, earn the experience and confidence, then try to push it as far as possible before drilling. And then try to do even better next time. Less was desirable because it was purer and had less impact. It was/is more than ego.
Ironic, run it and people call you whacko, selfish, a resource abuser (exclusionary). Protect that route well so that the nominal climber at the route grade can be completely safe and people call you a "sport" climber, one dimensional, a resource abuser (overuse). Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
Banning all bolts for face climbing would completely eliminate an entire dimension of climbing, one that has a long and rich history. A bad thing for those many people who do enjoy or prefer face climbing. But lest this comment be misinterpreted, out of control bolting is also a bad thing. There is a middle ground, bolting can be done responsibly.
I, like some others, wouldn't mind this thread fading away. Not because the issues shouldn't be discussed - chipping, chopping steps, destroying vegetation needs to be called out - but rather because some of the comments are not correct, nor are they constructive.
Bringing tangent extremes to this thread, when it may be (ok, is) watched, may not be the best idea. Leave the bias and predjudice behind as much as possible if something needs to be said.
We all disapprove of the environmental damage called out in the OP. We don't all agree about bolts being good/bad or where they cross the line from one side to the other. Throwing each other under the bus because of those disagreements may be a bad thing, as we'll all end up getting run over.
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jstan
climber
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Mar 16, 2012 - 11:18am PT
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Quite simply, we lose it when we invest emotion in a discussion. It ceases to be a discussion.
For my own part had I encountered bolted climbing first I would have just walked on by. Of no interest at all. So purely artificial.
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James Wilcox
Boulder climber
The Coast
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Mar 16, 2012 - 12:20pm PT
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I was just waitin' for someone to ba called a slut. Then I would have
known we had hit rock bottom :)
FWIW-I thought Khanom expressed his views nicely. And held it together
when attacked. Kudos.
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henny
Social climber
The Past
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Mar 16, 2012 - 01:52pm PT
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There have been some articulate posts on both sides. There have also been others not so much so. People are certainly entitled to their views, and there may be some validity to those views that merits consideration. The question seems more where, when, and how the views are presented.
I may have unfairly seized on what I consider an extreme solution. It makes me uncomfortable when only one side is taken into account. It's not about the messenger(s) per se.
Since I'm contributing to drift, and engaging to an extent in what I'd like to see not happen in this thread, I'll leave it at that.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Mar 16, 2012 - 04:41pm PT
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stzzzzo, at the risk of serious thread drift I would like to point you towards
the rancorous schism that troubled the Sierra Club when it pointedly refused
to address the issue of population growth.
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guyman
Trad climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Mar 16, 2012 - 06:25pm PT
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I'm with Dave on this.
We should let "The Black Hand" take care of these perps.
It so simple to understand. Rats who chip holds are just punk thieves.
They steal from all of us.
We need the Local NPS to do it's job. Cite and prosecute them, so we have a trial, then WE know who it is and we (climbers) will do the rest.....
EZ
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sethsquatch76
Trad climber
Joshua tree ca
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Mar 16, 2012 - 09:14pm PT
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Today I climbed at Patagonia Pile. At the base was a mixture of broken Newcastle and Heineken bottles.......We cleaned them up best we could.......
Rule #1 Dont sh#t on top of any formation
Rule #2 Pack out your TP
Rule #3 Pros drink canned beer and pack them out! Broken bottles are f*#king lame!
I am a inbred JT local. If I see you break any of the above rules EXPECT TO BE CONFRONTED, WRAPPED IN TP, SHAT UPON, AND BOTTLES BROKEN OVER YOUR HEAD!
Joshua Tree is a gem, educate others, protect it!!!!!!!!!!!
Bernadette is a mega blessing as a liaison between us and the park service.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Mar 16, 2012 - 09:31pm PT
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At the base was a mixture of broken Newcastle and Heineken bottles..
Seth, I think it is worth pointing out that it is highly unlikely that the broken bottles you found out behind HVCC were left by climbers.
Thanks for cleaning up someone's mess.
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rlf
Trad climber
Josh, CA
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Mar 16, 2012 - 10:01pm PT
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"At the base was a mixture of broken Newcastle and Heineken bottles.."
It definitely was not real climbers. Real climbers can't afford to drink that good shit!
Thanks for cleaning it up!!!
I have to admit, I just don't get the mentality of people who think that chipping, "gluey", trashing etc are acceptable practices.
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ME Climb
climber
Behind the Orange Curtain
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Mar 16, 2012 - 10:09pm PT
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@rlf- you sure have no problems drinking my Newcastle!
Seriously though if there is enough to prosecute these people maybe we should hear about it so we can take any other appropriate actions
Eric
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rlf
Trad climber
Josh, CA
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Mar 16, 2012 - 10:23pm PT
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Never going to happen. This is something that needs to be settled "in house".
We all make our mistakes in life. The general idea is that when we do something that is completely unacceptable, we learn from that mistake, or at least make a feeble attempt.
This clearly isn't the case here.
Prosecuting won't solve anything.
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ME Climb
climber
Behind the Orange Curtain
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Mar 16, 2012 - 10:26pm PT
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Then let's take what ever other steps need to be taken!
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gonamok
climber
dont make me come over there
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Mar 17, 2012 - 07:40pm PT
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Make a sport climbing area at JT to coddle gym trained climbers who are terrified of a "trad rack"?
What is this sport coming to? Nobody should have anything done for them, if you cant find what you like here, then go someplace else. The only thing that im concerned about regarding the gym/sport crowd is that so many have no idea how to act around cliffs and other climbers, and that ignorance puts them, others and the environment at risk.
As for the quality of their experience, they can create their own experience like everybody else. Maybe we should put in one of those MacDonalds play areas for them too.
If you need your hand held you are in the wrong sport.
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Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
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Mar 17, 2012 - 07:43pm PT
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pukie brown and heniousiken,
real climbers would have busted up some pliney bottles
or maybe a lagunitas ipa, with the sweet hops,
would anybody care for a hot buttery meatloaf or some crab cakes?
what kind of dressing?
mashed pototoes or baked potptoe?
who here can puke up a corn beef cabbage sandwich in front of an irish priest?
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blackwater23
Mountain climber
Sammamish, WA
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Mar 21, 2012 - 01:09pm PT
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Dudes and Dudette's,
I learned to trad climb in JT over a period of 10 days. Came down from Anchorage the day after Christmas 1999, camped in the park and got spanked on any number of 'easy' bolted routes but fell in love with the place. I endeavored to perservere, bought some trad gear at the local climbing shop and gave it a go. Consequently I have a very limited amount of patience for whiny sport route gym rats crying for more bolted climbs in JT. Just back away from the bolt gun and embrace your inner trad child. Seriously. Learn something new you can take to the Sierras, Cascades, Tetons and Alaska Range like I have since my early trad days in JT. Do the words, "nut up" have any significance for you?
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Mar 21, 2012 - 04:34pm PT
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Hey, Sprock, Father will hear Confession at 4:20.
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Kironn Kid
Trad climber
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Mar 21, 2012 - 10:44pm PT
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What's the issue-problem? Put up your new route with clean pro, or no pro! if you aren't up to the task, come when you are, or leave it for another generation.
Russ
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Mar 22, 2012 - 11:18am PT
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if he were that tough, he'd'a stayed in alaska.
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jstan
climber
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Mar 24, 2012 - 11:17pm PT
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As far as I could tell everyone had a great time at today's JT work party. It was very well organized and led with its major task the replanting of the old roadway north of intersection rock. I would guess there were 50-80 people working including a large group of youngsters from a climbing gym and a very substantial representation of the AAC. Way to go!
We planted about 175 of the 216 seedlings the people of the NPS had been preparing for the last two years for this precise project. So that the genetic adaptations existing among flora there might be continued, the seeds for all of the plantings had been gathered from that very area. All of them will be watered every two weeks or so for the next two years. A major commitment of time and energy.
For some of the holes we had to dig down through the old road base. But for that we would have got all 216 planted. All the artificial materials had been successfully removed however. The road contractor had done an excellent job. The kids were up to their task and pushed ahead no matter what they ran into.
A really great day of climbing.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Mar 24, 2012 - 11:36pm PT
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For some of the holes we had to dig down through the old road base.
Good thing they had an expert - jstan - to help with that. All that work at Cathedral Beach paying off. Hopefully someone will post some photos.
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FreeCoffee
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 25, 2012 - 02:26pm PT
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Thank you for helping with the reveg project.
Bernadette
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TYeary
Social climber
State of decay
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Mar 25, 2012 - 03:55pm PT
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This is the kind of "JT Ethics" I like to see. A group of volunteers planted over 200 shrubs in a re-vegetation project at Hidden Valley near Intersection Rock. Thanks to everyone who worked so hard, including friends new and old, John Stannard, Kris Solem, Kp, Kevin Trieu and Wendy Conlon, Seth Kovar, Jim Pinter-Lucke, SW Section Chair AAC, and Jeff Deikis, SW Regional Cordinator, AAC.
TY
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Mar 25, 2012 - 04:45pm PT
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Tony bird. one of the biggest missconceptions out there is that trad climbing is some super secret hard core skill that only the godly ones can achieve.. total BS! It ain't rocket science> it's just climbing. yes a rack is pricey but most of the gear lasts forever or close to it. A stopper is about the same price as a rack of hippy beer. #1 Every time you are about to waste money on junk food, chew tobacco, cigeretts, beer or any other non essentual item don't! buy a piece of trad gear instead. #2 use that trad gear every time you go out climbing. lead somthing dammit instead of lugging a shiny rack arround and hanging it on a branch near the rest of your shwag while you TR all day! follow these 2 simple rules and in two seasons you wil be getting up multi pitch trad within a grade of your sport comfort zone. k
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jstan
climber
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Mar 25, 2012 - 04:56pm PT
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I feel quite badly about my earlier post. Bernadette and her NPS coworkers put two years of hard professional work into making this happen and spent all the effort required to gather everyone together. And then I hopped in after doing very little. I apologize.
The NPS realizes it is our park, not theirs. We have to come out and support our park. It is necessary we do this for reasons well beyond just the project at hand. An example. I can sit here and complain about gym climbers and young people without end. But if we all go out and work together to achieve a shared goal - everything changes. When I go to an NPS meeting where the various user groups provide their input as to how our park should be used, I won't look at gym climbers and young people as - them.
The NPS cannot manage our parks for our benefit unless they can first get us together.
Several centuries ago I did the last climb where I was only interested in finding out whether I could do it. When I got the answer I had the feeling that this was the end. Yesterday in JT I had only the feeling that this is the beginning.
A world of difference.
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Fletcher
Trad climber
Fumbling towards stone
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Mar 25, 2012 - 05:20pm PT
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That planting project looks like fun and familiar. I did one with a small group from the AAC and boatloads of other folks back in the fall at Indian Cove. Couldn't make it this time, but would have loved to. This seems like Jim is going to try to make it a regular thing. Good stuff and enjoyed those photos.
Always appreciate spotting Tony in those photos, the wise old punk who's not as old as he thinks! :-)
Eric
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steelmnkey
climber
Vision man...ya gotta have vision...
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Mar 25, 2012 - 05:31pm PT
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Awesome work all of you!!! Hope we can help the next go 'round.
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bit'er ol' guy
climber
the past
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Mar 26, 2012 - 12:48am PT
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8,000 short grainy squeeze job slabs is 7,999 too many. Ban first ascents!!!
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Rocman
Trad climber
Reno,NV
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Mar 30, 2012 - 11:07am PT
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My first trip to jt was 1978,bolting on lead,running it out,to save the rock,they had BIG BALLS,thats want I rember from my trip,then climbing got SPORTY
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FreeCoffee
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - May 15, 2012 - 10:57am PT
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The area in question is the Underground Chasm on Queen Mountain. The Chasm is located in designated wilderness and a 2 hour hike from the trailhead, NW of Lower Walt's Rock. The 11 routes have not been reported on mountainproject and as far as I can find are only listed in Robert Miramonte's new guide. A member of the climbing community, pointed the crag out to me. It appeared to him like some holds may have been 'enhanced.'
I hiked out to the Chasm in March and found a lot more than possibly enhanced holds:
 9 steps chiseled into a ramp in the chasm proper
-An established and abandoned campsite
2 fire rings with the remnants of burnt joshua tree limbs.
a bench
a cache of water
cooking pots
dozens of cut scrub oak - laid out to make a bridge-like structure leading into the chasm.
a crowbar
trash
approximately 120 bolts spaced 4-6 feet apart (11 routes)
11 sets of anchors
a fixed rope
-evidence that the rock faces had been aggressively cleaned
Joshua Tree's management plan states that bolts may be replaced, bolt for bolt in wilderness areas, but no new bolts may be placed without a permit. No permits have ever been issued for Queen Mountain.
Powerdrills may never be used in wilderness areas - per the Wilderness Act.
Queen Mountain is a day-use area - to protect the native animals.
No fixed ropes may be left any where in the park.
Vegetation may not be collected or cut for any reason
Chipping, scraping, gluing, and gardening holds is prohibited.
Law Enforcement Rangers did a full investigation on the Upper Chasm area, but unfortunately it was inconclusive. Meaning, there is no way to prove who permanently altered the rock on Queen Mountain. We are currently discussing how to effectively restore the area. Anybody interested in this restoration effort can contact me directly.
What happened on Queen Mountain is unacceptable behavior - the most egregious of all are the 9 chiseled steps. Their scar will outlive all of us. I aim to prevent activity like this from happening anywhere else in the park, but I can't do it alone. I need all of your help.
Also, during that same trip up Queen Mountain, I removed the crashpads that were stashed at the Underground bouldering area - 2 well-worn, well-chewed on pads. I'd like to return them to the owners, no harm done.
Please contact me with questions and / or comments.
Bernadette Regan
JT Climbing Ranger
bernadette_regan@nps.gov
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Russ Walling
Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
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May 15, 2012 - 11:13am PT
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The FA crew that was out there was like a chippers Hall of Fame. F*#king sad that these guys are still doing this sh#t, and some of them have been doing it for decades.
WTF???
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Grampa
Trad climber
OC in So Cal
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May 15, 2012 - 11:58am PT
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Motion activated game cameras. The high-end models will send an image to a email address in real-time. Also need a high-end radio link to get the signal out of the canyon. Remember to disable the camera flash, it startles the game, I mean, criminals.
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RtM
climber
DHS
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May 15, 2012 - 11:59am PT
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The individual implicated has also been accused of pulling the same sh#t at other areas, including: Shuteye Ridge, Riverside Quarry, and several small areas around San Diego/Fallbrook.
So, hows the "dealing with it inhouse" coming along?
I have never walked into the base of the Chasm, but it sounds like the moki steps had been there for years. I also hear that the majority of the routes there are au natural, save for a few of Gary Henning's!
Bernadette - I have been asking around about the pads, nobody has claimed them. I know that there were several pads that had been stashed at the Underground for at least the past 10 or 12 years, curious if they are the same ones. I heard that they had blown away on a windy day tho
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susan peplow
climber
Joshua Tree, CA
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May 15, 2012 - 12:10pm PT
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This story makes me physically ill, you know when you get coffee-tummy? The only thing that brought any humor to it at all was this statement which made me audibly laugh. You got 'em on that one Bernadette!
"Even in green pants and sneakers I was able to scramble past the fixed line to access the upper chasm, the anchor the line is fixed to, and 4 other rap anchors. If you could climb 5.13 do you think you'd need to jug this line?"
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Gary
climber
"My god - it's full of stars!"
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May 15, 2012 - 12:17pm PT
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9 steps chisled into a ramp in the chasm proper
-An established and abandoned campsite
2 fire rings with the remnants of burnt joshua tree limbs.
a bench
a cache of water
cooking pots
dozens of cut scrub oak - laid out to make a bridge-like structure leading into the chasm.
a crowbar
trash
approximately 120 bolts spaced 4-6 feet apart (11 routes)
11 sets of anchors
a fixed rope
-evidence that the rock faces had been aggressively cleaned
I'm ashamed to be a climber. Maybe I was never a hardman, but at least I always climbed in good style.
So, Russ, who is it? They need to be outed, badly.
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steelmnkey
climber
Vision man...ya gotta have vision...
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May 15, 2012 - 12:23pm PT
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I'm with Sooze 100%. This makes me ill. It's so f(*king wrong.
Glad that the rangers know that this sort of sh*t does not fly with the majority of the climbing community. This is the kind of stuff that can cause some serious issues between climbers and the park dudes. I'd volunteer to help with a major cleanup out there if it's needed. Seems like some had already been done. Have crowbar, will travel.
Time to heat up the tar, get the feathers out and out the m**her fu*8ers.
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froodish
Social climber
Portland, Oregon
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May 15, 2012 - 12:28pm PT
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Wow. I'm just dumbfounded that anyone could think that was acceptable. This is way worse than I imagined from the initial description.
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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May 15, 2012 - 12:43pm PT
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Ugh...that's bad stuff.
I'm gettin' me some green pants. Thanks for the tip!
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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May 15, 2012 - 12:53pm PT
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Thanks, Bernadette - sad news. The vandals seem to have caused a lot of selfish damage.
The saddest news of all is that there are people who behave in a similar manner in all climbing areas. They behave as though they own the place, and the rules (if any) don't apply to them. Certainly we have such people in Squamish. Such people usually know very well what is and isn't appropriate behaviour. Short of occasional arrests, and making examples of people, what do you do?
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James Wilcox
Boulder climber
The Coast
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May 15, 2012 - 12:59pm PT
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Locker,
I'd suspect that the comments about Riverside Quarry, and the one climb that Freecoffee included a picture of, would indicate the focus of attention. But that's just a hunch on my part....
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RtM
climber
DHS
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May 15, 2012 - 01:00pm PT
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I am trying to be tactful here Locker. I want to give the guy the benefit of the doubt, but all fingers are pointing that direction.
Also, I hear, there are drilled steps at Shuteye, Quarry, and local SD areas that lead straight to his routes, which also have penned in names/ratings, as well as enhancements.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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May 15, 2012 - 01:03pm PT
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I don't get why a 'hard man' would need chiseled steps to get to a 5.13 climb, or any climb.
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RtM
climber
DHS
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May 15, 2012 - 01:05pm PT
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not to get off-topic, but has anyone done much hiking around Utah? Apparently, welling out steps is an acceptable practice amongst hikers there, because I come across them frequently. Guess they figure if the natives did it...
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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May 15, 2012 - 01:07pm PT
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RtM, as you no doubt know, most hikers aren't carrying children and baskets
of corn. Besides, it was their land. :-)
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socalbolter
Sport climber
Silverado, CA
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May 15, 2012 - 01:15pm PT
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Let me be VERY CLEAR about this:
I am NOT responsible for these acts! Nor is Grahm Doe! He and I both climbed in that area some time ago, but all of the recent development there has been at the hands of others. I've been speaking with Robert, Kevin Daniels, Tom Murphy and others about this behind the scenes and am trying to find out for sure who is to blame for this.
My last visit to the area was a few years ago when Robert wanted to shoot some photos on Survivor. I remember there maybe being a piece of fixed rope there then and I've been racking my brain to try and remember if the drilled steps were there then or not. I can't say for certain as I did not go up into the Chasm proper on that trip. Prior to that day, it had been years since I was out there.
To think that someone would think this was acceptable behavior is mind boggling to me. Yes, it is a long walk, but to me that long walk always added to the overall experience of climbing on Queen Mountain and other remote JT areas. I would never contemplate backcountry camping and fire pits, and the rest of this. Further, it is very easy for climbers good enough to climb the routes there to access all areas of the Chasm. There is absolutely ZERO problem accessing the routes. It makes no sense at all why a fixed rope or drilled steps could be rationalized as necessary. As climbers, we are tasked with being stewards of the areas we visit. These actions do not reflect very well on our stewardship. I can only take solace in the fact that these are the actions of one or two people and not the community as a whole.
I have only climbed a few of the routes in the Chasm, and on those routes there were no manufactured holds. I can only imagine that what Bernadette saw must have been on the more recent additions. The rock on that wall is very dark, so I imagine any manufacturing of the rock would stand out in sharp contrast color-wise. I also remember that wall being pretty featured in its natural state.
I have my suspicions as to who may be involved, as does Robert above, but those are based on similar enhancements at other areas by that person. I asked him point blank about this and he vehemently denied his involvement. I also asked his partner about it and he too denied being involved or any knowledge of his partner doing any of it. Short of an admission of guilt or definite proof, I'm not sure what can be done about this. What I do hope is that this will create a very public notice that this type of behavior is NOT ACCEPTABLE EVER, and that anyone contemplating something similar will refrain.
Louie Anderson
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socalbolter
Sport climber
Silverado, CA
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May 15, 2012 - 01:26pm PT
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Too funny Locker. Ran into Tom Murphy a few days ago at a slide show in Costa Mesa and we were talking about this. I don't come to the Taco much these days, but did this morning and saw this thread. When I saw where the assumptions were leading I wanted to remove the target from my back on this.
Robert suspects Gary Henning, as did I, along with others (Blame Canada post above). He says he didn't do it so I'm not sure where to go from here.
It saddens me greatly to know that this happened.
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RtM
climber
DHS
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May 15, 2012 - 01:31pm PT
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I'm not ripping on natives Reilly. I have climbed out of cliff dwellings on authentic Moki steps, and it was a moving experience. The modern ones though, I find to be mildly disgusting
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RtM
climber
DHS
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May 15, 2012 - 01:39pm PT
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Thanks for your insight Louie! I have seen enough episodes of Forensic Files to know that strong circumstancial evidence can still lead to incorrect conclusions.
The circumstancial here is damning tho
I mean, drilled steps leading directly to the guys routes in several other areas?
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socalbolter
Sport climber
Silverado, CA
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May 15, 2012 - 01:40pm PT
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I agree completely Robert.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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May 15, 2012 - 02:00pm PT
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It might be pointed out that perps often, if not usually, vigorously assert their innocence.
It is part of their mindset concerning right and wrong, responsibility, and
good old-fashioned denial.
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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May 15, 2012 - 02:00pm PT
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OMG, a ban on drilled steps?
(that was sarcasm)
Reading Bernadette's post made me sick to my stomach. The selfish acts of the guilty party are in no way imputed to 99.9% of the climbers who frequent JT. This is real and permanent damage, not some intellectual debate about some chipped hold 80 feet off the ground. This behavior screams enforcement of the existing climbing rules, i.e. a ban on access to the Park fr the guilty party.
This vandalism essentially wiped out the work of dozens of volunteers who helped at the Intersection Rock replanting, it is a slap in the face to those volunteers.
I would be more than willing to help clean up that mess, is the crowbar still there?
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mtnyoung
Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
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May 15, 2012 - 02:15pm PT
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Sickening beyond belief. Whoever did this isn't a climber, they are a piece of sh#t deserving no sympathy.
But has anyone noticed the Park Service's reaction? Is anyone paying attention?
There have been so many comments on this site about the NPS, about knee-jerk reactions, all the flaming about "the man" over the years. And yet what I am seeing is a calm, totally legitimate reaction to an absolute outrage.
I'm impressed.
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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May 15, 2012 - 02:53pm PT
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A local climber has already been out, dismantled fire pits, took out trash, and moved stones back to natural places that had been moved to accomodate convience. Filling in the chiseled steps would be the next thing for someone to do;......I believe these photos were taken awhile ago;......some restoration has taken place since these pics...
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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May 15, 2012 - 03:20pm PT
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how would the innocent react to an accusation?
more emphatically?
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steelmnkey
climber
Vision man...ya gotta have vision...
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May 15, 2012 - 03:39pm PT
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Not saying the guy is lying, but I'm not sure I'd be in a big fat hurry to take the word of anyone who would do that kind of damage in a backcountry area and leave all climbers left holding the bag. You could certainly see, with the natives sharpening their arrows, that they would have some SERIOUS motivation to deny ever having been in the area, regardless of the truth. My experience has been that when it gets this serious, flat out denial (as with presidents, presidential candidates, etc.) is the first course of defense.
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Gary
climber
"My god - it's full of stars!"
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May 15, 2012 - 11:14pm PT
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A local climber has already been out, dismantled fire pits, took out trash, and moved stones back to natural places that had been moved to accomodate convience. Filling in the chiseled steps would be the next thing for someone to do;......I believe these photos were taken awhile ago;......some restoration has taken place since these pics...
Thanks, Todd.
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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May 15, 2012 - 11:24pm PT
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This is so f'ing sad. So many people have spent so much time and energy to minimize the impact of climbing at JT. Hope that rules the day and not the acts of a few ignorant boneheads.
We spent many years exploring Queen Mountain and hoping to leave it almost as pristine as we found it. There is magic up there.
Todd,
Many thanks to everyone everyone making it better. I will be there in a few weeks and do what I can as well.
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Russ Walling
Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
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May 15, 2012 - 11:38pm PT
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So what is being said, by the FA crew of all those routes, is "we didn't do it, and we don't know who did it". You have got to be f*#king kidding me. That is one steaming pile of bullshit right there, and you guys are either some of the largest f*#k heads on Earth, or are protecting some of the largest f*#k heads on Earth. I'm just not buying it. Your past is nipping at your heels and your pathetic legacy has really been cast in stone, or chipped in stone so to speak.
Khanom is onto something with his post,
( http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1772094&msg=1826240#msg1826240 )
but.... too F'n bad. Sometimes the questionable innocents need to find the guilty, or suffer their fate. Who did this???
I hope the PS actually does something, anything really, to make it perfectly clear that this sh#t is not how it is done, not condoned, and its practitioners will be held accountable. I'm all for chopping every bolt out there and declaring the area a dead zone.
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LongAgo
Trad climber
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May 16, 2012 - 12:31am PT
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To: Bernadette Regan, JT Climbing Ranger
I suggest you contact Rangers at Pinnacles National Monument as you are facing a replay of what occurred there in the 80’s – chipped holds, chopped vegetation and random paths to access rocks, bolting frenzy via top rope techniques, with power drills sometimes used, and disregard of a raptor program attempting to reintroduce condors to the Park. The entire history, response of the climbing community and Park Service is instructive.
Long and short: alarmed climbers under threat of total climbing bans across large areas at the Monument organized into the Friends of Pinnacles and agreed to ground up climbing only for FAs, no chipping, no new access trails, no power drills, seasonal closings of selected cliffs during raptor nesting and dissemination of all the agreements through the FOP website and PS websites. Park Service also enlisted FOP in development of new but limited cliff access trails. PS also was wise enough to recognize and honor climbing as a significant and accomplished use at Pinnacles in displays and brochures, including large history posters at the new west side visitor center. Sometime, a win win is possible with adroit mix of regulation and cooperation.
Tom Higgins
LongAgo
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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May 16, 2012 - 09:43am PT
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Does anyone else see the irony in the fact that it took an outside party (Ranger) to bring this serious problem to the forefront of this community?
It sound like we know who did most of it. I certainly won't be roping up with these fools. The only thing that can be done at this point, besides the clean up (thanks for the update Todd) is to shine a spotlight on the perps and keep it there until they leave this sport.
Even if that takes a while.
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socalbolter
Sport climber
Silverado, CA
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May 16, 2012 - 10:18am PT
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I and others have already stated who we think is responsible. I guess a repetition is in order for those who would try to lay this on me:
I have never spent the night on Queen Mountain, nor did I make a fire or anything of the sort up there. To the best of my knowledge, neither did Grahm Doe.
My single route at the Chasm does not have any manufactured holds on it, nor do any of Grahm's routes.
I did not chip access steps into any rock there (or elsewhere), nor did I leave a fixed line. Neither did Grahm.
Both of us have been gone from that crag (and Joshua Tree at large)for many years. The more recent route additions at the Chasm came at the hands of Gary Henning and others.
I am beyond upset that someone has done these things there, and also that some would blame me for this. I did not do any of it. I've got calls into Gary and his partner, with no return calls yet. I did speak to him about this a few weeks ago though, when he denied it all. I'll stay on it...
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Gary
climber
"My god - it's full of stars!"
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May 16, 2012 - 10:41am PT
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I hope the PS actually does something, anything really, to make it perfectly clear that this sh#t is not how it is done, not condoned, and its practitioners will be held accountable. I'm all for chopping every bolt out there and declaring the area a dead zone.
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RtM
climber
DHS
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May 16, 2012 - 12:34pm PT
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Its my understanding that most of the routes are not enhanced. Chopping all of the routes would just make an already shameful situation more shameful.
Chopping bolts does make a statement tho
albeit in a cowardly way.
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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May 16, 2012 - 12:43pm PT
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IF the climbing community and Park Service comes to the conclusion that chopping is appropriate how would it be cowardly? Cowardly is sneaking bolts in without a permit. A decade or so ago I was opposed to the notion of permits for bolts. Thanks to the actions of a few cowardly persons (I will not use the word climber) I have changed my view of regulation, sadly JT has become like the city, rules have become necessary. Personal freedom must now take a backseat to protection of the environment.
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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May 16, 2012 - 12:46pm PT
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RtM: "So, hows the "dealing with it inhouse" coming along?"
Well?
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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May 16, 2012 - 12:55pm PT
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I think anyone that knows socalbolter and the decades of his positive contributions to rockclimbing, know there is no way he is responsible for any this destructive behavior.
It seems to me the "in-house cleaning" is being done. It's just not being posted all over the internet.
Edit:
Chopping these routes won't change a thing. The message sent to the perps is simple.
Find another hobby, you're not wanted here.
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jstan
climber
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May 16, 2012 - 01:13pm PT
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As I understand it the bolts were placed illegally. We have to understand the NPS is loath to undertake actions until they have been very thoroughly considered. Their approach has long benefitted us all. That said, they might not be adverse were climbers properly skilled as to bolts and rock restoration to undertake a work party following a plan agreed to beforehand. That means not undertaking restorations other than those planned.
I don't think we want to have individuals going in entirely on their own.
That is what got us here in the first place.
I spray painted some test rocks this morning, The rocks were facing pretty much south so the paint should well set in a few days.
A before and after shot of a rock that, while not desert varnish, was very tightly grained. I chose several different surfaces for this test. The date is wrong by one day.
We will see how all these rocks look after 3000 PSI water jet cleaning.
Before:
After:
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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May 16, 2012 - 01:24pm PT
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So far the only change has been illegal bolts, chopped steps and a general trashing of a very special place.
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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May 16, 2012 - 01:24pm PT
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IF the climbing community and Park Service comes to the conclusion that chopping is appropriate
Not going to happen. Because as much as the chipping, trash, etc sucks, there are two of the very best (non-chipped) routes in the entire park there that do not deserve to be chopped simply as collateral damage for some dipshits' other transgressions that happened to occur nearby.
Survivor and the King are as good as it gets in JT. And I really don't think some blowhard wankers who will never climb these routes, crying about some unrelated bad stuff and instigating to "chop the whole area and close it down" will ever constitute a conclusion from "the climbing community".
Remedy the damage, deal with the perpetrators. But don't cut off your nose to spite your face and screw those of us who actually will climb those nearby routes that are unrelated to the B.S.
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RtM
climber
DHS
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May 16, 2012 - 01:30pm PT
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I was being too harsh, sorry. The idea of removing the whole wall shocked me a bit. I could see removing some of the unnecessary anchors and such, the enhanced routes, as they are ruined.
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Russ Walling
Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
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May 16, 2012 - 01:30pm PT
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^^^^
ECap: I'd go climb them quick if I was you....
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jstan
climber
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May 16, 2012 - 01:33pm PT
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This is the kind of citizen situation the NPS does not need. If we cannot accept the fact climbers have injured themselves and there will be a cost, we will force the NPS to take more extreme correction.
Right now it is a choice. But we have to agree and we have to act responsibly.
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Russ Walling
Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
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May 16, 2012 - 01:45pm PT
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Should all of Todd's hundreds of illegal routes be chopped now too?
Yes, but for quality infractions, not illegality.
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Russ Walling
Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
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May 16, 2012 - 01:54pm PT
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What is filling the email box right now is how this has happened at other areas, in Cali, along with rampant chipping, and the same names are popping up on the FA list. I'm just doing the math.
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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May 16, 2012 - 02:17pm PT
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Same names, same shame.
Ironic?
I think not.
Funny how those names, who had nothing to do with it...had been there at the conception.
Poofters.
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looking sketchy there...
Social climber
Latitute 33
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May 16, 2012 - 02:48pm PT
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It is extremely unfortunate that the egregious actions of a couple people have brought the actions of the rest of the climbing community under particular scrutiny. However, climbers are often judged (correctly or not) by the acts of the most thoughtless of our ranks.
For this reason (and others), I personally believe that climbers should take responsibility for rectifying this problem. To an extent this has occurred already (the incidental environmental damage has already been mitigated).
The remaining question to be resolved is the removal of routes and fixed anchors. Should (1) All the fixed anchors be removed, or (2) Only anchors on the routes with chipped holds, which are accessed by the "stairs," and which were apparently also established by the prime suspect(s)?
This is not as easy of a question to answer as you might expect, there are cogent arguments for both approaches. Intelligent discussion by locals (climbers who have a direct stake in the issue) should be undertaken.
I have confidence that this approach will appropriately address this particular problem.
__
More generally and to address a few issues raised up-thread:
Joshua Tree has a Climbing Management Plan (CMP), problematic though it may be. Unfortunately, neither climbers nor the NPS have abided by it.
There has been mention of the CMP's Wilderness Permit System for new fixed anchors (routes) and that "No permits have ever been issued for Queen Mountain."
No permits have ever been issued because there is no actual permit system in place. For a variety of reasons, the NPS never took the steps necessary to establish a permit system. This has lead to a general feeling that the prior NPS administrations breached their agreement with the climbers. [And, suffice it to say -- in the long version of this story -- that is a more than fair conclusion.]
In the absence of a real permit system it was accurately predicted that routes utilizing fixed anchors would be established in Wilderness areas regardless of the prohibition. And, in the resulting "nuanced" view of climbers, establishing new routes was justified by the NPS' breach of faith.
Of course, that there are still "rules," notwithstaning such apparent lawlessness, escapes some climbers as evidenced by the damage we are all discussing.
What is needed is a serious re-appraisal of new fixed anchors in Wilderness areas and a re-drafting of the CMP to reflect the original deal brokered between climbers, environmental groups and the NPS. This would allow for some "permitted" new route development (fixed anchors) in Wilderness. Several methods of accomplishing this have been studied and proposed.
And contrary to what has been suggestion by Tom Higgins, local climbers have been very much involved in the climbing management process. And, one should not take the stupidity of a couple climbers as reflecting the general situation on the ground.
The alternative is not more regulation, but more thoughtful regulation.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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May 16, 2012 - 03:00pm PT
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well, i'm no longer a local or else i'd have done something more active. props again to the cleanup party.
i would support erasing the enhanced routes, if that photograph upthread is in fact a good depiction of the situation. that could be done right away. then if folks really, really wanted to erase the others (the imperative for that strikes me as a lot less persuasive, based on what little i know about the crag), it could be done later.
without knowing the current Super, or having a better sense of the current upper management at the Park, i'm a bit reluctant to say anything about the cup or the possibility of renegotiating the plan.
who is the super now anyway?
edit for the answer:
http://www.nps.gov/jotr/parknews/supbutler.htm
sounds like he has some history with parks that have climber management issues
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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May 16, 2012 - 03:03pm PT
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the chopped steps are the major concern
And the chopped/sawn trees, and the hard to quantify but definite impacts on wildlife from camping in the area... Filling in the chopped 'steps' and chipped holds, and removing some or all of the bolts (placed with a powerdrill or not) won't fix any of them.
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Russ Walling
Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
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May 16, 2012 - 03:06pm PT
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^^^^^
Yeah, they've got the time and the manpower and the skills to do that.
edit: and money....
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Russ Walling
Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
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May 16, 2012 - 03:10pm PT
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uh... we were talking about taking out bolts, not putting them in...
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Russ Walling
Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
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May 16, 2012 - 03:13pm PT
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I'm not really sure what your point is.
The NPS seems pretty aware on this stuff.... after all, didn't they bring it to the Forum?
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kev
climber
A pile of dirt.
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May 16, 2012 - 03:29pm PT
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a shocking 48 posts ever now by ana....
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jstan
climber
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May 16, 2012 - 03:51pm PT
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If my memory is correct the NPS permit system was one of the results of a brouhah several years ago regarding wilderness anchors that involved a number of large citizen groups. Groups that outnumber us substantially. What do climbers bring to the table? We could, by actually reaching a consensus among our own group, alleviate to a degree the enforcement issue that the NPS has to confront.
We are the source of this particular problem. I have not seen any equestrians out there attempting to winch their horses up Run for Your Life. If we are the problem, does not our chance of living with the answer, improve if we are part of that answer?
The first thing to realize is that certain freedoms come only when you have in your file cabinet a paper entitled
"Grant Deed."
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zip
Trad climber
pacific beach, ca
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May 16, 2012 - 04:16pm PT
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was there a permit issued for placement of the bolt protecting the crux on Double Cross?
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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May 16, 2012 - 04:21pm PT
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Locker, I don't like chopping either but it seems to me this gets to the perps
in that it nullifies their little ego trip.
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socalbolter
Sport climber
Silverado, CA
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May 16, 2012 - 05:03pm PT
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I've been thinking about this all morning. Just read through the posts since my last visit earlier today. I've got a few comments/thoughts on this:
1) If the intent is to send a message to the person responsible, I'm not sure that any of this will necessarily do that. I guess there is no irrefutable proof as to who is responsible, but I definitely have my suspicions. If in fact that person is responsible, anything we do will not make him change his stance on things. I've gone around and around with him on things before with no change in his actions. I did talk to him again this morning and he stands by his original denial.
2) If the climbing community is to do something about this, we should be doing it to show the NPS that we can in fact deal with this ourselves and police the actions of the community as a whole. This is a very slippery slope, and I'm not really sure who gets to act as judge on what actions, if any, should be taken.
3) I personally have only ever removed one bolt placed by someone else. It was an extremely low bolt on an Owens River Gorge route back in the early days of development at that area. I called the bolter, expressed my displeasure with having a bolt 6 feet off the ground over a safe and flat landing and together we agreed the bolt should go. I then pulled it. That said, I am leaning towards some level of bolt removal in this case.
4) If bolts are to removed, which bolts? Does anyone have first hand knowledge of how many routes have the manufactured holds? Someone upthread said to remove the bolts on all routes approached by the chipped steps, but from my understanding of where the steps are this would call for the removal of just about the entire wall. As ElCap said, there are a number of fine, natural routes on that wall that are among the best I've had the pleasure of climbing in the park. Grahm's Eternal King ranking way high on my list of Josh sport routes. Personally, I don't feel like the other routes should go by association.
5) The last thing I want to do with a precious (these days even more so) day off is to drive out to Joshua Tree and trudge up to Queen Mountain on a hot day to deal with someone else's mess, but I will if need be. I have this Sunday free and will go up there and help to do whatever we decide is best. I will not remove other routes, but if there is a route in particular that sports these obviously manufactured holds the bolts can be removed and the holes patched without too much effort. Conversely, chipped holds could be filled in and the routes left for someone stronger to do in the future. Again though, I have no idea what kind of route count we're talking about. Does anyone have first hand knowledge? I do need to be back in Orange County by late afternoon, so it would have to be an early start (maybe leave the parking area at 5:30 am?), which would probably be best with the hot temps anyway.
6) Bernadette's pictures show the chipped steps as being pretty disgusting. I'm not really sure what can be done to patch or repair those. Whatever is done will likely always look like a patch. Should anything be done about them? Not sure how I would even approach addressing them...maybe someone else has an idea on that?
Anyhow, that about sums up my thoughts. I don't sit at a computer all day, so even if I wanted to visit more, my visits here are sporadic at best. I can get emails on my phone though. If someone wants to discuss this more you can email me at louieanderson@live.com or post something here and I'll see it whenever I can get back to the site.
Louie
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looking sketchy there...
Social climber
Latitute 33
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May 16, 2012 - 05:09pm PT
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If my memory is correct the NPS permit system was one of the results of a brouhah several years ago regarding wilderness anchors that involved a number of large citizen groups. Groups that outnumber us substantially. What do climbers bring to the table? We could, by actually reaching a consensus among our own group, alleviate to a degree the enforcement issue that the NPS has to confront.
This recitation is factually incorrect.
A consensus was reached between the Wilderness Society, the National Parks and Conservation Association, The Access Fund, and Friends of Joshua Tree. The then Supt. of JTNP stated that if these groups could all come together with a plan, the Supt. would sign off on it and that would be incorporated in the Climbing Management Plan.
In reality, one individual who represented a local section of the Sierra Club (although the Sierra Club National organization did not support her position) objected to ANY fixed anchors. She (and some others within the Park administration) persuaded the Supt. to change the agreed upon CMP so that it required EIA (Environmental Impact Assessment) planning for each proposed new route with a fixed anchor.
This essentially killed the permit process (as it was designed to do), since the Park would have to design a Programatic EIA template (at the cost of literally Hundreds of Thousands of Dollars -- this process was begun but never completed) and then EACH application for a Permit would have to go through a EIA process which would require considerable time and resources of Park personnel (I recall a 6-9 month time frame to process a Permit was discussed).
Since the Programatic EIA template process was never completed, there is no process in place to process and evaluate a Permit application -- if anyone ever bothered to apply for one.
We are the source of this particular problem.
I understand that some Forum posters have an inherent objection against fixed anchors. While I can respect that people have differing views, it is not subject to debate that this is an extreme minority opinion among climbers.
Most climbers believe that fixed anchors have a place in climbing. The extent of their use (or abuse) is where most climbers have differences. It is my belief (and experience) that these differences are NOT insurmountable nor are the mainstream spectrum of views incapable of reaching a consensus.
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looking sketchy there...
Social climber
Latitute 33
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May 16, 2012 - 05:17pm PT
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Someone upthread said to remove the bolts on all routes approached by the chipped steps, but from my understanding of where the steps are this would call for the removal of just about the entire wall.
The idea (at least what I intended to express) was Gary's routes and any other routes with chipped holds be removed as one option.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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May 16, 2012 - 05:18pm PT
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Chop all the routes but leave the cut steps along with an interpretive sign
written by Russ W.
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jstan
climber
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May 16, 2012 - 05:21pm PT
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Randy: Thanks for your description of the process. It is pretty close to what I recollect. You established very clearly the so-called permit came out of the brouhah, as I said it did.
On your other objection, have you seen anyone other than climbers putting in bolts? So it is climbers who are putting them in. Right? My other point.
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socalbolter
Sport climber
Silverado, CA
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May 16, 2012 - 05:28pm PT
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Just looked at the posted photos again. The chipped steps are obviously man-made and look to be done with a drill, based on the drill marks in the shots. They could probably be filled in with epoxy and maybe some rock crystals pressed into the wet epoxy. It would likely still look like a patch, but would probably be better than leaving them as they currently are. I could do this if this seems to be the majority consensus approach.
The first questionable chipped hold looks to be definitely drilled, however what I didn't notice originally when looking at the shots was a bolt sleeve up and left from the drilled hold, where a bolt has been removed. Has the route already been chopped?
The second questionable chipped hold shot looks natural to me. By that I mean it does not appear to have been drilled. Instead it looks like a snapped patina flake. This happens quite often in the Park and I can't see much to complain about with it. Most of the steeper sport routes in the Park, regardless of grade, have similar broken flakes.
Again, I can be free on Sunday if there's something we ought to do. I'm willing to go out there with whomever wants to. At this point though, we need to decide what ought to be done, if anything.
Louie
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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May 16, 2012 - 05:31pm PT
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It seems likely that Bernadette is following this discussion, but she should be notified of any plans/initiative, and asked to comment and if possible participate. The NPS definintely needs to be involved. Perhaps whatever is done should be under the aegis of FOJT or some similar group, for accountability.
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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May 16, 2012 - 05:34pm PT
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I agree with Randy that there is a place for fixed anchors. I believe they should be placed out of "necessity" and not convenience. I realize this is subjective, but we need to develop some kind of standard. If there is a solid, viable place for a removable gear anchor, please don't drill.
They should also be as discrete as possible. If sport areas wants to have clearly visible anchor chains hanging below the top, so be it. This does not belong in the wilderness.
My $.02
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looking sketchy there...
Social climber
Latitute 33
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May 16, 2012 - 05:35pm PT
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Randy: Thanks for your description of the process. It is pretty close to what I recollect. You established very clearly the so-called permit came out of the brouhah, as I said it did.
John, your statement (as quoted in my prior post) is materially incorrect since it: (a) states climbers did not bring anything to the table, (b) states that there is in fact a permit process (there is none), and (c) implies that climbers did not reach a consensus.
As for the issue of fixed anchors, they demonstrably do not have significant environmental impacts -- either directly or as "magnets" attracting climbers and increasing user impacts. A scientific study done of Joshua Tree Wilderness climbing confirms this.
But, as I conceded above, everyone is entitled to an opinion -- however we are not compelled to accept any opinion as true just because someone holds it.
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Russ Walling
Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
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May 16, 2012 - 05:45pm PT
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The second questionable chipped hold shot looks natural to me. By that I mean it does not appear to have been drilled. Instead it looks like a snapped patina flake. This happens quite often in the Park and I can't see much to complain about with it. Most of the steeper sport routes in the Park, regardless of grade, have similar broken flakes.
That is exactly what I thought when I saw the pic... Those sort of breaks are really common and even happen on lowly 5.10 routes. (but ya never know ;)
Those steps though.... damn.
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socalbolter
Sport climber
Silverado, CA
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May 16, 2012 - 06:25pm PT
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I contacted Bernadette and received an email back from her.
A few things from her email:
1) They (the NPS) are appreciative and recognize the climbing community's efforts to clean things up.
2) The most important thing they want done now is to spread the word that this type of activity is unacceptable.
3) They have asked that no actions be taken now. They are reviewing possible actions and if any are to be taken they will occur in the Fall. I gave her my contact information and asked her to keep me informed so that I can assist in whatever action is decided upon.
I'll let you all know if I hear anything further.
Louie
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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May 16, 2012 - 06:40pm PT
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i think randy's information requires some response from bernadette. the CMP permitting system has never been used? you need an expensive EIA to set any bolt in the wilderness area? the compromise worked out has been rendered ineffective by a noisy sierra club firebrand?
am i reading this right?
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drljefe
climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
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May 16, 2012 - 08:26pm PT
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rlf
Trad climber
Josh, CA
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May 16, 2012 - 11:39pm PT
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"Piss off the right NPS person, and its on. They aren't all playing with full decks!"
This is exactly the kind of attitude that just adds to our troubles...
Jesus people are stupid.
It serves no purpose. Learn to choose your battles wisely. Running around like a five pound lap dog challenging the one hundred pound pit bull, then being surprised about the outcome doesn't exactly make a lot of sense.
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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May 16, 2012 - 11:58pm PT
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Let calmer heads prevail.
It sounds like the JTNP service accomplished their goal of informing the community at large of these destructive activities.
We all know now. Everyone condemns this activity and won't allow it.
Mission accomplished , no?
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jstan
climber
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May 17, 2012 - 12:12am PT
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Let calmer heads prevail.
It sounds like the JTNP service accomplished their goal of informing the community at large of these destructive activities.
We all know now. Everyone condemns this activity and won't allow it.
Mission accomplished , no?
Pretty much on target but there is something we can think about in the meantime. We all know in addition that we ourselves have not been able to think of a way to solve the problem the Park faces.
The Park needs our help.
Will we be ready to give that help even though we may not get exactly what we would like in the Fall?
Be honest now.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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May 17, 2012 - 10:09am PT
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[scrambled eggs for breakfast, i guess.]
i'm not enough of a JT local to have followed the development and administration of the CMP, but if its permit system has never been implemented, and if a compromise was thrown out because of unreasonable concerns which were not part of the original debate process, i think someone dropped the ball.
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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May 17, 2012 - 11:09am PT
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we ourselves have not been able to think of a way to solve the problem the Park faces.
And what "problem" would that be? Because if you're referring to the new routing issue, we HAVE been able to come up with a solution...a permitting system...that the NPS refuses to implement.
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FreeCoffee
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - May 18, 2012 - 03:18pm PT
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A permit system for bolting in the wilderness is in place. The JTNP website, the park's climbing brochure, and Vogel's JT West all instruct you to call the special use office for a permit.
Step 1: Call the Special Use Office 760-367-5545
Step 2: Fill out a Special Use Application: http://www.nps.gov/jotr/parkmgmt/upload/specialuse.pdf
Yes, it is a generic form.
Step 3: The special use office will call you for details. Then the application will be passed on to the climbing ranger for a field visit.
Step 4: After the field visit is complete, the application must pass the approval of all the department heads "squad". Squad meets on a weekly basis. If deemed necessary a NEPA evaluation may take place (National Environment and Planning Agency). Which basically is a full-range of questions addressing every possible impact a new route may have on the park.
Step 5: The superintendent has the final say and must approve the new route.
According to the current Special Use Permit person - John - and the former SUP - Don Roberts (who worked that position for over a decade) No one has ever called to inquire about a wilderness bolting permit. So, this process has never been tested.
However, as we all know, new bolting is happening in JT's wilderness. Despite Randy Vogel's JT West and Robert Miramonte's new guidebooks stating, "vogel p.25 -- it is currently not permitted by the park to place new bolt/fixed anchors in designated wilderness areas." & "miramontes p.16 -- placing additional bolts on new or established routes is illegal."
I will point out again, the bolting at the Underground Chasm is minor compared to the 9 steps that were chiseled into the approach. But those 9 steps are bringing lots of issues to the table.
I appreciate all of your feedback - and I want to continue an open discussion.
In my email to Louie Anderson, I said, "The best thing anyone can do right now - is to let other climbers know that this is unacceptable behavior in a national park, and even more so in designated wilderness."
Thanks again to Todd and his anonymous crew who went out to clean up at the Chasm. Really appreciate it.
Bernadette Regan
JT Climbing Ranger
bernadette_regan@nps.gov
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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May 18, 2012 - 04:36pm PT
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Thanks or posting that information Bernadette. One concern about wilderness bolt permits is the requirement of an Environmental Impact Assessment, which could be required pursuant to a NEPA review. If that is the case a bolting permit could take years to get.
Does the park make an informal review of the permit request and only require a NEPA review if deemed appropriate? Would a "garden variety" bolt permit request need a NEPA review? Are there particular parameters which would require a NEPA review?
I read the Superintendents Compendium, I had no idea that Zombie Woof was off limits to all climbing and bouldering. I was shocked learn that snowmobiling is not allowed in the park.
A list of off limits climbs is listed below.
Pictograph Boulder (Township 1 South Range 8 East, Section 36) (beginning at the northwest
corner, 583829E x 3767204N (UTM Zone 11N (NAD 83)); thence easterly to 583845E x
3767204N; thence southerly to 583845E x 3767190N; thence westerly to 583829E x 3767190N;
thence northerly to the point of the beginning).
Energy Crisis Route (Little Hunk Formation) (Township 2 South Range 8 East, Section 4)
(beginning at the northwest corner, 578242E x 3765552N (UTM Zone 11N (NAD 83)); thence
easterly to 578259E x 3765552N; thence southerly to 578259E x 3765537N; thence westerly to
578242E x 3765537N; thence northerly to the point of the beginning).
Schwarzenegger Wall Route (north end of Rockwork Rock) (Township 2 South Range 8 East,
Section 4) (beginning at the northwest corner, 578510E x 3766002N (UTM Zone 11N (NAD 83));
thence easterly to 578526E x 3766002N; thence southerly to 578526E x 3765988N; thence
westerly to 578510E x 3765988N; thence northerly to the point of the beginning).
Shindig Route (Indian Cave Boulder) (Township 2 South Range 8 East, Section 8) (beginning at
the northwest corner, 577004E x 3764122N (UTM Zone 11N (NAD 83)); thence easterly to
577020E x 3764122N; thence southerly to 577020E x 3764108N; thence westerly to 577004E x
3764108N; thence northerly to the point of the beginning).
Lonely Stones Area #3 (Township 1 South Range 7 East, Section 16 & 15) (beginning at the
northwest corner, 569349E x 3771711N (UTM Zone 11N (NAD 83)); thence easterly to 569358E x
3771711N; thence southerly to 569358E x 3771701N; thence westerly to 569349E x 3771701N;
thence northerly to the point of the beginning).
The Shipwreck (Township 2 South Range 8 East, Section 8) (beginning at the northwest corner,
576926E x 3763566N (UTM Zone 11N (NAD 83)); thence easterly to 576950E x 3763566N; thence
southerly to 576950E x 3763541N; thence westerly to 576926E x 3763541N; thence northerly to
the point of the beginning).
Indian Wave area (incorporates previous closures at Chicken Wing, Heavy Metal, and Hell Flake)
(Township 2 South Range 8 East, Section 4) (beginning at the northwest corner, 579284E x
3765501N (UTM Zone 11N (NAD 83)); thence easterly to 579345E x 3765468N; thence southerly
to 579287E x 3765363N; thence westerly to 579226E x 3765397N; thence northerly to the point of
the beginning).
Zombie Woof (Township 2 South Range 8 East, Section 8) (beginning at the northwest corner,
576396E x 3763680N (UTM Zone 11N (NAD 83)); thence easterly to 576415E x 3763680N; thence
southerly to 576415E x 3763658N; thence westerly to 576396E x 3763658N; thence northerly to
the point of the beginning).
Maverick Boulder (Township 2 South Range 9 East, Section 23) (beginning at the northwest
corner, 591251E x 3760665N (UTM Zone 11N (NAD 83)); thence easterly to 591274E x
3760665N; thence southerly to 591274E x 3760644N; thence westerly to 591251E x 3760644N;
thence northerly to the point of the beginning).
Wormholes (Township 1 South Range 8 East, Section 25) (beginning at the northwest corner,
582868E x 3769167N (UTM Zone 11N (NAD 83)); thence easterly to 582884E x 3769167N; thence
southerly to 582884E x 3769149N; thence westerly to 582868E x 3769149N; thence northerly to
the point of the beginning).
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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May 18, 2012 - 06:37pm PT
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If you were a crafty NEPA mgr for the NPS, you'd call putting in new route bolts "Installation of navigation aids" and CATEX the route permits.
Replacing old bolts is clearly a CATEX event under "Replacement in kind of minor structures and facilities with little or no change in location, capacity, or appearance..."
Otherwise you write one programmatic EA (let's face it, bolting routes will never reach the threshhold for significance under NEPA) for the permitting program and then you're not conducting NEPA/EIAP work everytime a permit app comes in.
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Russ Walling
Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
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May 20, 2012 - 10:58am PT
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"Stand down".... "Bully boy"....again? Sheesh. Get some new lines Coz. Your whole deal is beyond tiresome.
As a suspected chipper (not by me), Josh hold gluer and convicted illegal bolter, this is one you might want to sit out Coz.
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ron gomez
Trad climber
fallbrook,ca
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May 20, 2012 - 12:12pm PT
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Well said.
Peace
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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May 20, 2012 - 02:03pm PT
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How many routes are there in Josh now? Six Hundred Gazillion? Does Josh really, really need still MORE routes? Will there every arrive a day when folks come to agree that a route that gets bolted, gets done once, and then never gets done again -- or maybe sees a small handful of ascents over the next 20 years -- was a route maybe not worth bolting for?
Just some rhetorical questions. Food for thought.
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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May 20, 2012 - 03:04pm PT
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Apparently not.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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May 20, 2012 - 03:18pm PT
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And maybe egos will become passè...
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xx--J-Tree Trad Master--xx
Gym climber
Las Vegas
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May 28, 2012 - 03:55am PT
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I think there should be a permit system for impatient people waiting for their turn on Walk on the Wild Side...... BTW who would bolt a choss pile like that anyway?????
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zip
Trad climber
pacific beach, ca
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May 28, 2012 - 08:45am PT
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Happy Memorial Day!
You're welcome.
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Russ Walling
Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
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May 29, 2012 - 04:51pm PT
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"Cos sez: Really your rants, are truly shameful..."
Man, it don't get any richer than that!
"Russ, call Randy or Todd and talk with them, it's shocking your ignorance, and it's pathetic and sad your envy and jealousy."
Your crystal ball is letting you down. As for the other stuff, well, it continues to shed light on your sickness. I actually pity you. I know it must me tough fighting all the bullies on the internet and securing crag access for all of us. Long day, I bet.
Seriously Coz, since you continuously post in the manner that you do, with all the unprovoked attacks and sh#t slinging, not just toward me, but toward all the other good folks too, it is fast becoming a problem that will be addressed. Your list of rants against good people who don't deserve anything like the BS you spew is becoming something to behold. I know you are all growed up now and have found your voice, and unfortunately a fully entertained audience that loves the clown-show to go along with it, but really... The path you are currently on is not a good one, and it is becoming your new legacy. And no, they do not think you're "joking" (as you like to say) as you try to wriggle out of your statements. They mostly think you are a pretty troubled guy that is to a large degree taking away from what the forum is supposed to be about.
Take it for what you will.
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LongAgo
Trad climber
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May 30, 2012 - 08:58pm PT
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Looking Sketchy said: "And contrary to what has been suggestion by Tom Higgins, local climbers have been very much involved in the climbing management process. And, one should not take the stupidity of a couple climbers as reflecting the general situation on the ground."
I did not intend to imply there had not been any interaction between climbers and PS on climbing management issues. Nor do I claim to be familiar with those interactions. My only point was the issues raised on the thread sound very familiar to those climbers and Park Service faced at Pinnacles National Monument several years ago and some of the resulting solution elements may have application at JT. If not, so be it. Those elements included:
well organized, respected organization of climbers (Friends of Pinnacles) disseminating information on bolting, cliff access trails and ground up only agreement struck with PS to avoid outright climbing bans or an unworkable, restrictive permit system
dissemination via FOP and PS website of information about cliffs closed to climbing during certain seasons due to raptor nesting, and caution about placement of bolts on new routes (ground up only and no power)
cooperation between FOP and PS on clean ups, access trail development and marking posts
development of historical displays at visitor center recognizing climbing as a legitimate and rich use and featuring some history of climbing.
Again, if any or all of these elements have no potential or are irrelevant to the problem at JT, then there it is. I make no judgment or denigration of interactions between JT climbers and the Park Service to date, no do I claim any familiarity with those interactions.
Tom Higgins
LongAgo
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jstan
climber
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Jul 31, 2012 - 10:51pm PT
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Well I went legal today. Without talking to the NPS I have been doing a little trash picking in the park.
To go legal you call George Land at
1-760-367-5507
I went down to the Park office on Park Blvd in JT filled out a form, and got a little volunteer pin.
The Park wants to keep track of the hours so George gave me a form to fill out and return each month. This is also done at Facelift.
Since my Golden Turkey was coming apart I got a new card in plastic. No charge.
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jstan
climber
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Here is a portion of the July hours.
I just scan it to email going to george_land@nps.gov
Worked like a charm.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Well, jstan got post #512, which somehow seems apropos.
Don't know that I'd want to be out picking up litter in Joshua Tree in July, though. Isn't it kind of warm?
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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trash knows no season
heh
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jstan
climber
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Quite cool today. 84ºF back up at the house.
This morning I got a first pass on the property between the Pit and Alta Loma. A gold mine! Maybe 50 pounds worth. Also did Alta Loma from Park Boulevard to the western intersection with Sunset. Sunset south is looking pretty good! Want gradually to work west on Alta Loma to YV. I drive that when going in to the big city.
Lost one of my grabber cups. Have to fix it. It kept right on working!
Now back to real work.
Edit:
Anders:
It works well enough with just one cup to allow me to keep going. I can't seem to find a contact for Orangotongs so I PM'd Ken for an address.
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jstan
climber
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Went down with the JT Clean Team. We picked up the Post Office area today. I had lost one of the rubber cups from Ken Yager's Orangotongs. The Clean team gave me a replacement. On the way home I found fresh trash where I picked up last week on Alta Loma. As I was getting that a fellow stopped, rolled down his window and hollered, "Thank you so much. You are the best!" Spic and span again. That's exactly the way it worked in New York.
It as been a good day and I have not even started work yet.
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susan peplow
climber
Joshua Tree, CA
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Kudos to you John and very happy to hear one the locals tossed a big thanks to you too! Hit and stucky out fior such volunteer work but as Kerwin so aptly put it "trash knows no season"
Good on ya!
Edit: that's hot & sticky but the other sounds silly enough to keep
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jstan
climber
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Aug 30, 2012 - 06:49pm PT
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Yesterday completed trash pickup for Hidden Valley Campground. Did quail springs last month.
What is the next worst area??????? I need suggestions.
HVCG was pretty bad. Perhaps ten times worse than C4. Aluminum foil torn up by varmints looking for food very severe and deposits were old. Even found two tea bags that had been tossed into the bushes. Broken glass deposits were generally old. Found cases where the toilets had not been used even though less than 100 feet away. Not a lot of adhesive tape. Found two pennies. Apparently $100 bills are limited to Northern California.
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Aug 30, 2012 - 08:52pm PT
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Great work jstan! I make it a point to pick up stuff every time out. You may want to check on the parking area for Rattlesnake Canyon. I picked up a bunch of stuff there before Gordo Fest, especially going east along the hillside.
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RtM
climber
DHS
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Aug 31, 2012 - 12:07pm PT
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Yea, jstan - thanks!
I make it a point to pick up trash whenever I'm out in the wilderness. Whenever I hit up a circuit or crag, the first thing I do is walk the area and collect all trash. I agree that HVCG is the worst! Can't even cut through there without filling up my bag. Another area that needs some love is at the end loop parking for Rattlesnake canyon at Indian Cove. Last time I rolled through there I must have picked up 50 cigarette butts in about 5 minutes.
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Scole
Trad climber
Joshua Tree
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Aug 31, 2012 - 02:09pm PT
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There was a time in Joshua Tree when FAs did not require bolting, and fixed anchors were the exception. Anyone willing to walk a bit can still find countless unclimbed cracks in Joshua Tree. Not as cool as a grid bolted patina face I agree, but much closer to the roots of JT climbing.
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Aug 31, 2012 - 02:20pm PT
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Thanks JStan.
A j-tree facelift event would be a blast! Always looking for an excuse to get out there and play.
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Aug 31, 2012 - 02:25pm PT
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Another area that needs some love is at the end loop parking for Rattlesnake canyon
Took my son scrambling out there last winter and fished out a lot of beer cans, including a pull tab Bud can from the early 80s I guess? Maybe it was of historical interest and I should have not disturbed it?
Away from the roads the trash is not a huge issue anymore, Trail damage is a bigger problem now, they need to do more public education about how fragile the desert is.
jstan, save some trash for us! j/k, thanks for picking up, especially in town.
edit: there used to be a Facelift type event at JT, I used to participate in the late 80s early 90s. Trash actually got noticeably scarce after a couple of years.
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Splater
climber
Grey Matter
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Aug 31, 2012 - 02:37pm PT
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I agree - trail braiding is a bigger problem. Maybe we get get "Free Coffee" to mention any upcoming and long term plans to fix trails, and how volunteers can help? I know it is a bureaucracy to get trail work planned and approved, but they have improved some areas over the past few years.
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jstan
climber
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Khanom(Eric):
Yesterday I put in a good part of one day cleaning trash at the Pit. It is very hard as the trash has been accumulating for at least fifty years. You have to go over the ground from all four compass points even to get the macrotrash. But I have got a good part of the macro and a lot of the micro over the 5 acre area shown.
Bob and I are meeting tomorrow morning to bring me up to date on the background and history. My card for residential trash allows me to dispose of 2000# per month. So borrowing a trailer will allow the immediate trash problem to be solved no problem. We need to clear off all ten acres before doing the moving though. Do it all in one go.For sure we could use help in that clearing process. I may be able to borrow some more grabber sticks from the JT Clean Team.
The longer term questions will take some thought. I am sure we can find ways around them.
PS:
Google Earth even shows the prevailing wind direction. The upwind area to the west should be the sweet spot on the 10 acres. The downwind portion yesterday was downright gnarly.
Edit:
I suppose my putting the Pit on a JTNP thread can be questioned. The Pit shares many problems that exist elsewhere so they are in the same tent. And this thread has talked about real problems. So I thought it to be appropriate.
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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
www.climbaddictdesigns.com
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I found a ten dollar bill and a quarter today doing clean up. Now I have ten dollars and twenty-five cents saved towards a new van(Swanky has until 10/25 and then his registration expires; he cannot pass inspection as is and the leprosy, a/k/a Northeastern Rust Syndrome, he suffers from makes doing the repairs to pass inspection futile)!
JStan - I have done clean up a few times in the Pit over the last two years. Several big trash bags removed each time. At least it's likely you didn't find the horrible number of butt rag socks and towels that I did first time I went out there(what the hell, people????).
One big problem for that place is that some people are lazy and feel unbeholden to behaving in a civilized way. They sit out at night and don't batten down the hatches before retiring - removing cans, paper bags and 12-pack boxes, light items like stuff sacks and such. The wind picks up and the stuff is gone in a flash, only to be harpooned a few feet into the brush.
If someone who is there tells the new arrivals *the rules,* it's more likely that person will get the stinkeye and a "who the hell are you, thinking you can tell me what to do" attitude than a thanks for filling them in.
You can tell people that dumpster is not in service, and to carry out, they'll nod their head yes, and the next morning you'll see them go over and put stuff in the dumpster before others wake up.
I am not sure how I am going to get to JTree this winter, but I do hope to, arriving about mid-November. Even though the Pit is gawdawful on a cleanliness scale, and the dirtbag mentality coming out of people driving cars less than two years old is pathetic, it is a very convenient place for those who are on extended stay.
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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John (jstan);....thanks for turning this finger pointing name calling thread into a positive and awesome example of what is good and right;.......free coffee started it out with an important issue;...but it soon became a train wreck;.....thanks for "cleaning up the mess" ...both in our beautiful desert and on the internet...
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jstan
climber
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Trip Report:
Following Stahlbro's suggestion, yesterday I went to Indian Cove intending to do all of the Cove
and the parking lot in one go. The first thing you see going in is the Group Campsites, so I start
those a little after 8AM. There are 13 of those big boys and each took a little under one hour.
Some of the hairiest climbing going. To get into all the nooks and crannies I had to climb with
sneakers whose soles were coming off. After seven or eight hours picking up broken beer bottles
I developed a strange desire. I needed a beer. When a youngster in one of the sites asked if I
needed water I went for it and asked for a cold beer. Never before has a Tecate done me that
much good. A primal experience.
I had to leave two sites for the next trip.
The Park needs our help very badly. Indian Cove was even worse than HVCG. If anyone in the
JT/YV area is up for this, drop me a PM and we will schedule something. I should be getting a
few Orangutongs shortly.
And a really gnarly ice chest.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
the crowd MUST BE MOCKED...Mocked I tell you.
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jstan rocks
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rlf
Trad climber
Josh, CA
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Well thanks so much for the nice words there. I was actually getting a little bit of motivation thanks to John to try and get some stuff done pre-season.
But now I'm done.
I have put more time, money, effort, and energy into The Pit than everybody combined.
Wally and I spent 2 months in the middle of summer digging that thing. 6 to 7 days a week. I have personally removed 3 of the 5 cars that were dumped there by climbers. One of which cost me $150 to get removed. I've done countless dump runs over the years and cleanups without assistance only to have the place trashed at the end of the season with no one around to help clean it up.
The dumpster was graciously left there by the American Alpine Club who walked away from the project without paying the bills.
I've done my best to ask people who stay seasonally to tell people not to camp on the hill only to come by in the morning and have to do it myself. I've asked people time and time again to clean up some and it never happens. More stuff get's left behind.
Harie Cohn who own's the property I live on came up with her trailer two summers ago and we did two major dump hauls and paid for it. She's not even a climber. She did as a favor to Wally and me.
I know Terry (happiegirl) did her best, but usually got sluffed off by others.
I had contacted some people I know who would take the old metal couches and other random recyclable materials out of there this week, but I think now I'm going to forget that. It would require my taking time out of my work day to wait for them, and they are not always punctual. I was also thinking about getting Wally's tractor down there to do some grading and cleanup, of course I'll be paying for the fuel to do that. Diesel ain't cheap.
That comment was pure and simply insulting.
I'm done.
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rlf
Trad climber
Josh, CA
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Thanks John for your efforts. This is exactly what we talked about the other day and why I am disenchanted by the pit.
I appreciate your efforts.
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jstan
climber
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Robert:
On Sunday we came to the conclusion after we got the present trash out of there we would make
the dumpster disappear. The common experience is that trash barrels
generate trash. If the dumpster can't disappear, I suppose we could batten it down
somehow so it is not useable. We can just fill it with dirt. Not a biggie. Then the continuation of
the pit will depend on people managing their trash.
In the event that people using the area manage their trash then the area can continue on merrily.
If they do not, what are the prospects? Ultimately it will come down to the neighbors complaining
to the county about the facility and the damn climbers. No matter who is causing the problem it
will be the damn climbers. Ultimately there will be many official visits and perhaps even county
complaints to the land owner.
The digging of the pit and its subsequent use created a nuisance. At first there will be posting of
No Trespassing signs which will be ignored. Ultimately the sheriff will object to his not having
staff to manage an owner created problem. To actually close it off will require either refilling the
pit or fencing off the entire ten acres. Probably both.
I think we have a good chance of avoiding all the bad stuff. It will not come through one
individual, such as Happie Girl trying to get people to manage their garbage. It can only happen
if climbers determine to own the problem. When some one is acting up, four or five climbers
walk over and say, "Hi! And by the way......"
Eventually even people coming in out of season will have to deal with the possibility a bunch of
climbers may show up. There are other places to go after all.
If climbers do step up and own the problem, it will prove to be a great step forward.
Time to think positively.
Seems to me.
On another topic.
As taxpayers we all own the problem of trash dropped inadvertently in our National Parks.
Climbers are a prominent user group for JTNP.
Walmart has a super burly ice chest that will keep ice for days even in a closed automobile. If
anyone wants to come along for a day I will fill it with ice, beer, water, orange juice and some
catered sandwiches. (You don't want any sandwich I made.)
Even getting fricasseed is made a perfect experience when you sit down in the shade with a good
beer/water/OJ and see how much you have done.
Indian Cove needs finishing.
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rlf
Trad climber
Josh, CA
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I 100% agree with everything you say. Unfortunately my experience over the past ten years is that this will not happen.
The county issues have always been a huge concern. Trust me, it was discussed from day one. At length.
I just won't stand for ignorant insults when I've done my very best make this thing work with little to no support whatsoever.
We can talk further this week.
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sethsquatch76
Trad climber
Joshua tree ca
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Mr. Robert Fonda,
you just solved my problem and you don't even know it........PM me Wally's email and Io will solve the pit trash/management problem this fall when we return.....Or call me, this is a win win!
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rlf
Trad climber
Josh, CA
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Thanks Seth,
We will be in touch.
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sethsquatch76
Trad climber
Joshua tree ca
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And Jstan,
you are the man! ultra extra way rad of you to be donating so much of your time to this trash clean up project both with ion and outside of the park!
Not sure if we know each other but Sabra and I will definitely be buying you some beers when we return in the fall!!!! Do you prefer Tecate? Solid work, thank you very much!!!!
Seth zaharias
ps Robert though your work maybe thankless, many have benefited. the pit is the best little sh#t hole in jt. Your work ion the pit has definitely kept people out of my yard, so thank you very much and beers coming your way as well!
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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RLF doesn't live in the town of Joshua Tree ;D
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sethsquatch76
Trad climber
Joshua tree ca
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Spending summers in JT has never been a reality for me......That's for tough guys/gals. I'm working ion the western sierras. Elevation is my friend during the summer months...
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Summers in JT are like winters in the valley... everyone comes out of it engaged triathletes.
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jstan
climber
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Actually the evenings when the change in sun angle causes air to start moving makes summer one of the most engaging seasons. There is peace and quiet deep enough to allow one to sit outside and listen to what the quail are discussing.
I post a lot of their ideas here.
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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
www.climbaddictdesigns.com
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Was there a post that was deleted(which insulted RLF)? I don't see one, and surely hope nothing I said was felt to be insulting.
As for "live in same town" remark - I think it makes sense, when a subject is being discussed, that the person would post a "hey I have an idea" to the forum. It's cluing others in that they care about the issue rather than staying silent and working behind the scenes. He wouldn't want to post details of his idea without discussing with appropriate people beforehand, but there's nothing wrong with giving a heads up in the public forum that I know of.
As it stands, my intention is to be in JT this winter. I am going to have to pull one hell of a magic trick to do so, but I have faith! And when I get there, I am really willing to help in whatever way I am able to make the Pit hospitable. In 2010, Dock C was the one who would give people coming in the beta. A lot of people thought he was an azz, but he was up before dawn and anyone coming in late at night and camped up high got told to move, and nobody dared put their trash in the dumpster.
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jstan
climber
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Dock C was the one who would give people coming in the beta. A lot of people thought he was an azz, but he was up before dawn and anyone coming in late at night and camped up high got told to move, and nobody dared put their trash in the dumpster.
Very good! I'll make one suggestion that can tamp down the resentment at being told. Before approaching someone, grab a friend by the elbow and go together. It deals with the tendency we all have to personalize without first getting supporting data. Turns it into a welcome visit.
Happi:
Be careful you don't junk a good vehicle just because of rocker panels. I used to live in "The Salt City". Any day you saw a vehicle with good rocker panels was a special day.
A trowel and some body cement and you are good to go.
Edit:
You are the expert HG.
Grabber sticks on order. Had to choose a personalization to be printed on them.
JTNP Facelift.
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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
www.climbaddictdesigns.com
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JStan - Actually...not good to go. The windshield needs replacement to pass inspection, but the body is rusted at points, which will put pressure on the glass as it grows.
If it were just that issue, I might replace the glass anyways. But...
There is something wrong with the suspension which won't allow to pass. I haven't looked into exactly what it entails but... it is also leaking power steering fluid and coolant. The steering fluid, I know where is leaking, the coolant I do not.
The body is very rusty, to the point now that the leprosy grows worse each day. Not that this is a big issue to me, but I am pretty sure the frame is in bad shape as well.
Add the above fixes and it would cost as much as a replacement van, I think. It makes me mad, because the engine itself is very smooth as is the transmission, and with 278K miles, and both those components original - that is pretty amazing.
The sign I think is a good idea. Clark had suggested last year that we print out some papers with guidelines to give to people when they came. I said we need to talk to RLF before doing that, and I guess we dropped the ball.
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FreeCoffee
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 18, 2012 - 10:19am PT
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The Access Fund posted an article about the Lower Chasm that has also been picked up by Rock and Ice:
http://www.rockandice.com/news/2237-egregious-wilderness-climbing-violations-at-joshua-tree#disqus_thread
http://www.accessfund.org/site/apps/nlnet/content2.aspx?c=tmL5KhNWLrH&b=5000939&ct=12186577
Personal thanks to JStan and Dave for their work in The Pit; and to everyone who has helped out at Rattlesnake Canyon and Indian Cove.
Also, glad to note that as of yesterday, the graffiti on top of Cyclops rock has been removed.
The Climbers Coffee season will begin on Saturday, October 13. Bring your coffee mugs to Hidden Valley.
We're doing a service project with Climbsmart on Saturday, October 20 that all are welcome to help with. The plan is to reveg a burned area along Keys View Road.
Volunteers are welcome at anytime, anyday, for all sorts of projects. Please email me or George Land (volunteer coordinator) if you have an interest. bernadette_regan@nps.gov george_land@nps.gov
Cheers to a new season in JTree.
Bernadette Regan
JT Climbing Ranger
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RtM
climber
DHS
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Sep 18, 2012 - 11:15am PT
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Hey Bernadette - thanks for removing that grafitti on Cyclops!
If yur interested, theres is also some tagging deep in Rattlesnake canyon, next to the boulder problem called Little Negra (listed in the new bouldering guide).
Thanks in advance!
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10b4me
Ice climber
dingy room at the Happy boulders hotel
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Sep 18, 2012 - 11:22am PT
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Who tags in Joshua Tree? I mean, wtf
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ATS
climber
Mountain Project
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Sep 18, 2012 - 11:49am PT
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Bolts, some hanging rope, rocks to make a bench can all be "undone." But burning a jtree? Come on guys...
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Sep 18, 2012 - 03:41pm PT
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Hear Hear! My sediments exactly!
He picks up his own cigarette but and he wants a pat on the back
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jstan
climber
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Sep 18, 2012 - 08:44pm PT
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We were very reluctant to touch what we thought was Jim's stuff but Jim was successfully contacted last night and he gave us the go-ahead. Today while working on that Blueblocker stopped by and helped out. Thanks so much.
If not before I go to Facelift, then after, I'll put out a trip report on the Pit, complete with pictures. It has been a memorable experience for me with new friends gained, worth every investment made. Staying there now will resemble living in a landfill, only if each of us does not step up to the bar.
2200 pounds removed.
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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Sep 18, 2012 - 10:38pm PT
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Cheers to a new season in JTree.
Thanks and same to you.
Thanks again for all your hard work. It is greatly appreciated.
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Sep 18, 2012 - 11:14pm PT
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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Sep 19, 2012 - 12:15pm PT
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I've had plenty of fun in Josh, but there are numerous areas that are warmer, have better climbing and way less camping hassles than JT. I don't get the attraction of sharing a landfill with a bunch of desert tweakers to climb grainy one pitch climbs.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Sep 19, 2012 - 12:41pm PT
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Yea Scaredycat
Josh Sucks! Tell all Your friends. And go somewhere else!
Try Canada
Jus Agree'in
BB
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jstan
climber
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Oct 26, 2012 - 12:45am PT
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We finished The Pit before Facelift. Here is the final result.
Since then I have been working Indian Cove, Rte.62 with the JT Clean Team, and Coyote Hole. Took 420 pounds to the landfill this morning from just Wednesday's work.
Just like at Facelift. This stuff goes really quickly.
Edit:
That marmelade was extra super dynamite. Megacalories.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Oct 26, 2012 - 01:49am PT
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^^^^^^
It must be the marmelade I gave him.
Good work!
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