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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Perhaps it would be more constructive if anyone with problems with these crampons contacted Black Diamond directly, whether with regard to warranty/replacement, or more general issues. It's a company known for taking quality and related matters very seriously.
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jfs
Trad climber
Upper Leftish
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Mighty Hiker,
Dane's (Coldthistle) point has been that BD has actually not been responsive enough to this issue. We're entering the second year with relatively frequent failures associated with the same construction and material issues. It's become public/frequent enough that it seems to warrant a public reponse from BD. This despite the fact that there are admittedly large numbers of Sabertooths out there that have not failed.
For some, a failed crampon midway up a route/pitch could be as potentially catastrophic as a protection/carabiner/cam failure - pieces of gear we all would be concerned about if they showed this frequent a (largely) unexplained failure.
I agree that BD is generally very responsive on quality issues and I love BD gear as a general rule. But at this point I have seen enough to convince me not to purchase or recommend Sabertooths due to this issue. At least not to those planning on using them on anything steep...
However I love my stainless Cyborgs, cams, packs, ice tools, axes, screws...etc. and I have always had very positive personal experiences with BD customer service. So I see this as an anomoly but one I'd like to see a response from BD on.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Well, it's possible that they're off product testing this weekend, or even have the weekend off, and can't reply until next week - assuming, that is, that they see this thread. And I've heard that there are climbers who have never looked at SuperTopo, although BD might let employees do so at work if they wanted or needed to.
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RDB
Social climber
wa
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Be nice to blame it on someone else...hell REI keeps doing it with the broken bikes so why not.
But the BD stainless horizontal crampons are made in SLC last time I visited the factory a little over a year ago now.
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apogee
climber
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BD is soooooo over.
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ms55401
Trad climber
minneapolis, mn
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I didn't notice any structural damage to my Sabretooths when I got them out of the box a couple years ago. I did notice, however, that one of the toe bales was put in backwards. [I chalked it up to stoner BD employees and fixed it]
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LuckyPink
climber
the last bivy
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I've avoided bd gear for a while now , except for the cams (although all my new pieces are metolius). Everything else seems to come up short, tents, skis, headlamps, crampons. I think BD, hallowed as they are, is not in control of production, using as much China based manufacturing and vendoring as they do. Have you tried the beer yet? eh..
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
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i ♥ <c>
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apogee
climber
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i miss <c>
Edit: It would be interesting to see what the state of Chouinard Equipment might have been if he hadn't cut it away so many years ago.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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BD is soooooo over.
weren't they bought up by a dark corporate entity last year?
the link alleges that they made it clear they don't give a hoot. what's the link to that?
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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I never had these BD crampons since they appear like something not very durable. For sure not aggressive enough for steep ice IMO. Although of course one can climb/lead ice in these, I wouldn't.
On the other hand, my friend had a CAMP (horizontal) crampon snap in half on steep snow once. It was fairly crazy to see it. Those CAMP crampons look like crap too. Just like those BD ones..
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mike m
Trad climber
black hills
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Mar 15, 2012 - 04:26pm PT
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Love BD gear but do not like their crampons. Grivel the other companies crampons I have used seemed way more bomber. My buddy has the new ss model and already broke the spacer bar. I also think the steel feels way more springy when standing flat footed with sidepoints engaged at an angle which is a feeling that bugs me.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Mar 15, 2012 - 05:03pm PT
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I have a warranty issue with one of your products. What should I do?
It’s always best to work with the dealer you purchased the item from. If this is not possible you can return any Black Diamond product within terms of our warranty (see below) directly to this address:
Black Diamond Warranty and Repair
2084 East 3900 South
Salt Lake City, Utah 84124
801-365-5555
warranty@bdel.com
Include your name, address, phone number, and a brief description of the problem. Items sent in for repair MUST be cleaned first or it will be returned. Note: This is NOT the address for returning items ordered from our mail order department or website. See "How do I return something I ordered?" HERE.
Limited Warranty:
We warrant for one year from purchase date and only to the original retail buyer (Buyer) that our products (Products) are free from defects in material and workmanship. For headlamps our warranty is for three years. If Buyer discovers a covered defect, Buyer should return the Product to the place of purchase. In the event that this is not possible, return the Product to us at the address provided. The Product will be repaired or replaced at our discretion. That is the extent of our liability under this Warranty and, upon expiration of the applicable warranty period, all such liability shall terminate. We reserve the right to require proof of purchase for all warranty claims.
Warranty Exclusions:
We do not warranty Products against normal wear and tear (such as ski edge cuts and abrasions, outsole wear, etc.), unauthorized modifications or alterations, improper use, improper maintenance, accident, misuse, negligence, damage, or if the Product is used for a purpose for which it was not designed. This Warranty gives you specific rights, and you may also have other rights which vary from state to state. Except for expressly stated in this Warranty, we shall not be liable for direct, indirect, incidental, or other types of damages arising out of, or resulting from the use of Product. This Warranty is in lieu of all other warranties, express or implied, including, but not limited to, implied warranties of merchantability or fitness for a particular purpose (some states do not allow the exclusion or limitation of incidental or consequential damages or allow limitations on the duration of an implied warranty, so the above exclusions may not apply to you).
http://www.blackdiamondequipment.com/en-us/customer-service/warranty-repair#bd
Black Diamond’s best all-around crampon, the Sabretooth features a lightweight stainless steel design. (highlighting added)
http://www.blackdiamondequipment.com/en-us/shop/climb/crampons/sabretooth-crampon
Take your concerns/questions directly to the warranty & repair department, and let us know their response. Preferably something current. I have no idea whether the Sabretooths are the best ever (relative to the intended use), useless junk, something that you've abused or have unrealistic expectations about, have quality control issues, or anything else. But if you haven't first tried to work it out with the dealer and manufacturer, and aren't willing to tell us what happened, don't come crying here.
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labrat
Trad climber
Nevada City, CA
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Mar 15, 2012 - 05:37pm PT
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I was wondering how long it would take coz to chime in trashing BD. :-) Never ever lets an opportunity pass him by.........
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labrat
Trad climber
Nevada City, CA
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Mar 15, 2012 - 05:49pm PT
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RDB... Did you even read your link before you posted you comment? I pulled a couple of paragraphs for you to reread. Note the bold section.
FROM BLACK DIAMOND WEB SITE
"But just as you can buy beefy, all-terrain radials that last longer than high-performance race tires, you can buy rugged climbing gear that'll last longer, but at a cost of weight and performance. You can also purchase more specialized, lighter gear, but it generally won't be quite as burly. It's up to each individual climber to make the choice and understand the possible ramifications of these decisions.
One last thing: my job at BD is to manage a team of engineers that test and break gear all day, every day. We test all gear (not just BD, but all our competitor's gear, too) and do so scientifically and objectively. Yes, we monitor the blogs and chat rooms for trends, information and what is being discussed, and are constantly surprised by both the nature of the commentary (sometimes factual and sometimes not) and the tendency of most blog/forum readers to accept everything as true. As a caveat, don't believe everything you read online—if you do, I have a friend in Nigeria who will wire you $100,000 and all you have to do is send him your bank account information."
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Mar 15, 2012 - 05:51pm PT
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i miss
Edit: It would be interesting to see what the state of Chouinard Equipment might have been if he hadn't cut it away so many years ago.
Chouinard cut it away because of a lilbility issue that forced GPIW into a Chapter 11. The original problem was a tort judgment when a harness sold by GPIW failed (it's not clear why) for a client The Bird was guiding. It obviously had some dire consequences on Jim, too.
So if you want to know why GPIW (i.e. Chouinard Equipment) sold to Black Diamond, it came about because of potential tort liability and Chouinard's new-found wealth from Patagonia. With the success of Patagonia, Chouinard could not afford the liability exposure, and could not effectively insulate himself from liability for failed climbing gear.
Incidentally, I still have, and still use, some #1 and #2 original Camalots. It's always entertaining to see my partners' eyes pop when they see me take them out of the trunk and put them on the rack! Then I bring out my original, rigid-stem, Friends . . .
John
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labrat
Trad climber
Nevada City, CA
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Mar 15, 2012 - 06:00pm PT
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"Do you think if a company has a fatal flaw in their product, it should not be recalled?"
If a product has a "fatal flaw" when used under reasonable and designed conditions then yes, it should be recalled. I'm not convinced that this is the case.
"Do you support people dying for a cost benefits ratio?"
The fact is we all support it. You included. I only want to pay so much in taxes.......
Erik
"the faceless BD troll"
Edit
Coz,
I think you would also benefit from reading and understanding the bolded section from the Black Diamond website above.
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skitch
Trad climber
pdx
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Mar 15, 2012 - 09:10pm PT
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I understand the road BD has decided to go down, they want to sell more gear than anyone else, to do so they have to compete with the companies that sell gear for low prices. BD has chosen their competition; MadRock, camp, mammut, etc.
That is why I choose to buy DMM, Petzl and Metolius, edelrid, organic.
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splitter
Trad climber
Hodad surfing the galactic plane
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Mar 15, 2012 - 09:20pm PT
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I have a pair of BD Sabretooths that I purchased about 11-12 years ago. Just wondering if they are one of the defective models/years??
edit: Oh, okay, thanks!
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jfs
Trad climber
Upper Leftish
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Mar 15, 2012 - 10:43pm PT
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Splitter - no, this is regarding the stainless model of Sabertooth.
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SGropp
Mountain climber
Eastsound, Wa
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Mar 16, 2012 - 12:24am PT
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Has anyone heard of problems with other models of Black Diamond stainless steel crampons ?
I bought my Sabertooths before they changed to stainless, but I bought my son a pair of new SS Seracs for general mountaineering as a graduation present. Any reported problems with them ?
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Pennsylenvy
Gym climber
A dingy corner in your refrigerator
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Mar 16, 2012 - 12:56am PT
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YER ALL GONNA DIE !!!!!
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RDB
Social climber
wa
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Mar 16, 2012 - 12:53pm PT
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"As a caveat, don't believe everything you read online"
Ya, I take that to heart when it comes out of BD these days.
I have a better than basic understanding when it comes to metals and ice gear Eric. If we haven't actually met in person ask around you might get an education. But I did note not a single word from you on the initial subject of this post..."catastrophic failure of BD's Sabertooth crampons". Best to just go back to work then, because you don't seem to be very good at your job imo.
Dane
"I have no idea whether the Sabretooths are the best ever (relative to the intended use), useless junk, something that you've abused or have unrealistic expectations about, have quality control issues, or anything else. But if you haven't first tried to work it out with the dealer and manufacturer, and aren't willing to tell us what happened, don't come crying here."
on this subject that is hilarious...and clueless.
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JBC
Trad climber
Portland, OR
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Mar 16, 2012 - 04:39pm PT
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Black Diamond’s best all-around crampon, the Sabretooth features a lightweight stainless steel design. (highlighting added)
A couple of points here. This is all just marketing speak. The first is, admittedly my opinion/impression and could well be wrong, but when I read "best all-around" I think of an item that is able to used for many purposes for many years. I think of a durable product, more so than a high performance super light piece of gear. But the statement really does not say much.
The second is "what is lightweight" frankly nothing more than marketing speak as well. Lightweight compared to what? In fact combined with other statements from BD it is looking more like a dodge to cover for poor durability of a product.
For comparison purposes, the Sabertooth is listed at 1172 grams, and apparently according to BD lightweight and not particularly durable, in essence a 1 year lifetime. My Choiunard/Salewa hinged crampons, had no cracks or problems when I sold them after 25 years of use! These old school, durable and one would assume, heavy crampons weigh a whopping 920 grams, that's half a pound difference! In favor of the "durable", "old" technology. Seems clear to me BD has a real problem here.
As for taking this to a dealer/BD, many people have, but it does not appear that anyone has gotten straight answer from BD as to what is going on here.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Mar 16, 2012 - 04:51pm PT
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So this is a product that has developed through multiple versions, over the last decade or two? Probably with extensive design and testing before they're marketed? And thousands, or tens of thousands, of pairs sold? You then offer anecdotal evidence of problems, not necessarily even yours, often provided by anonymous posters? Some of whom seem to regularly complain about Black Diamond, and who don't communicate their problems to BD? Which has an extensive quality control department, and a reputation for taking legitimate complaints seriously?
Sorry, it's hard to take that seriously. I have no crampon to grind here - although I bought my first pair in IIRC 1972. I have BD, Petzl, Mammut, Metolius and other brands of equipment, and have had others in the past. I buy what's best for my purposes, in balance, and indeed recently renewed much of my gear. And I've met people from all the companies, at OR, and when I was with the Access Society got support from most of them - including BD. But anonymous, anecdotal criticism of a reputable manufacturer seems misdirected energy. If you think a product hasn't done what it reasonably should have done, talk to the manufacturer. If you don't get satisfaction, then maybe complain - but provide all the facts. I've seen W&R in action at a major retailer, and know how often the story and the reality differ, often significantly.
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RDB
Social climber
wa
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Mar 17, 2012 - 02:31am PT
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"anonymous, anecdotal criticism of a reputable manufacturer seems misdirected energy."
Dozens of documented stainless Sabertooth crampons with catastrophic failures (the kind of "catastrophic failure" that might easily kill you if they happened at the wrong place) Who knows how many really as BD won't admit to a problem. But anyone interested or knowledgable on the issue knows full well there is one.
None of the owners have been anonymous. Pretty clear who I am. Reputable manufacture? To date, on the issue of catastrophic failures on stainless Sabertooth crampoons...hardly.
I still use and suggest selected BD gear. I have nothing against BD. No axe to grind here. Other than the fact they have crampons failing and decided last year to spin it instead of admit to a problem and fixing it. Think not? Do your own home work. Info is there and easy enough to find.
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miwuksurfer
Social climber
Mi-Wuk
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Mar 17, 2012 - 09:20am PT
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Looks like majority shareholder Warren Kanders is bringing his safety and QA history to Black Diamond...
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Bob Culp
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
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Mar 17, 2012 - 11:36am PT
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It looks to me like BD has a problem on their hands.
I’m not talking about Chinese manufacturers or broken crampons. I am referring to public perception of their brand.
When it comes to climbing gear I am not particularly motivated by nationalism or brand loyalty. I really don’t care if the stuff is made by Ethiopian lesbian dwarfs. What I need to know is:
1- Does the gear work?
2- Can the gear be trusted?
I needed a new pair of crampons yesterday. I was leaning toward the new Petzls or Grivel G20s but Neptune’s was out of both. The BD Stingers looked good so I went for them. I like them. They climb extremely well.
The thing is though, since they were made of the stainless steel that has been called into question, I hesitated for a moment. I figured because of the design, failure like that of the Sabertooths wouldn’t happen. But – I hesitated and that’s not a good thing.
I don’t know if a lot of the crampons have been breaking or not. Sounds like that may be the case. I do know BD needs to start a crash program to address the issue (one would hope they already are doing that).
They need to get those crampons into a lab and start breaking them. If there is a problem they need to recall the defective models that are out there and fix the problem. If that requires re-designing then do that. If it requires going back to chrome-moly and dropping stainless then do it. If chrome moly isn’t sexy enough – paint em pink or something. I don’t care.
If there is no problem – give us substantive information to that effect.
What we don’t need is company spin or slick sales pitches by ernest young employees who started climbing 3 years ago, if that.
This ain’t the auto industry.
If the BD brand takes a serious hit it will be a loss to the entire climbing community.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Mar 17, 2012 - 02:38pm PT
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Actually, if I bought ice gear I think I would prefer it be made by Ethiopian lesbian dwarfs.
I used to be a big BD fan until Peter Metcalf lied to me.
I hope he wants to sue me, Ron Olevsky, for putting it here.
Yeah, Bob, they DO have a problem with the public perception of their brand.
Their ethics are dictated by the bottom line, and perfection of quality is no longer the name of the game. Too bad. I don't think Yvon would have run things that way.
They threw me under the bus. Turnabout is fair play.
Boycott Black Diamond.
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SilverSnurfer
Mountain climber
SLC, UT.
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Mar 17, 2012 - 06:48pm PT
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I have a pair of the SS Sabertooth pros still in the box-close inspection reveals no visible cracks, but this info still worries me. They may just stay in the box for now.
Reading through this thread, I noticed a claim that there are now "dozens" of documented reports of failing Sabertooths? Following the links provided, I seem to be ending up at multiple reports of the same events. A few (or even one)instance of catastrophic failure is bad enough, but "dozens" would really sound the alarm bell for me. Does anyone have links to the documentation for this claim of dozens of SS Sabertooth failures?
Thanks,
Allen
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dirhk
Trad climber
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Mar 17, 2012 - 07:34pm PT
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I am also interested in some sort of documentation of the dozens of crampons that have broke. I have been able to find a couple by using google, but no where near 24+.
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RDB
Social climber
wa
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Mar 18, 2012 - 04:53am PT
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I had not bothered to keep a running tally on broken BD crampons. But I likely have seen most of the public data because of the cold thistle blog and my earlier relationship with the management at BD. I naively thought this topic would be long dead by now and the problem fixed since we are a full year in now..
So you can take this for what it is worth to you. I'll not offer any more details as many of the sources do not want to be outed in public for what ever reason. This whole iisue has been kept surprizingly tight lipped by all involved imo.
As this story broke on Grav Sport last year I was orginally told by BD personal that 6 pair were broken as of 2/21/11. Then as a few of us that were interested compared notes, the BD reps directly involved were saying anything from under a dozed to just over two dozen. I was later told it was under two dozen when I pressed again later in the week. Which is why I have said "dozens". Accurate? Honestly I can't tell you an exact number. The numbers I was getting from BD kept growning on a daily basis last Feb. Then my original source at BD stopped communicating with me a few days later.
I had further converstaions with BD in March but never again about broken crampons or with my original source.
What I could easily gather tonight from earleir notes is this:
from Grav sports but certainly not definative. Nor have I checked other on going Internet threads I know of.
Rafael broken ss 2/15/11
AT Thomas broken ss 2/15/11
Iwelsted 2/15/12 broken chromoly?
Farzad broken ss 2/11/12
Linderbach broken ss 2/23/12
Cold Thistle
emails or PMs from my memory before I stopped counting last winter
5 broken ss in Europe last winter, 3 in the UK
notes on CT right now, new breaks
bent SS 2/17/12
cracked ss 2/17/12
ss front bent 2/20/12
Nick from shop 2 cracked one bent 2/25/12
18 if you take Ian's chromo pair out that have some sort of documentation if only my memory from the PMs to Cold Thistle. And if I counted correctly. You could include the original BD numbers in that 18 but I doubt that is accurate either.
I by no means have access to the real numbers that have been broken.
BD has made what I would consider a concentrated effort to get any faulty crampons back in short order and with no public comments. To be fair BD has also very quickly replaced any crampons (with credit or any BD crampon) identified as faulty in every failure I have been privy too by the original owners. So nothing wrong with the BD replacement/warrenty policy on broken crampons.
It is their lack of public comment from the beginning and all the very public pointing of fingers at every thing but the crampons at issue that worried/worries me.
Sad really because rhe Saber and Serac climb exceptionally well. But in 30+ years of technical ice climbing I have never seen a crampon design fail so dramatically. I sure as hell don't want to be in a pair when they do. YMMV
Dane
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GrahamJ
climber
In the rain
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Mar 18, 2012 - 01:20pm PT
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I had a chat with Black Diamond's distributor down under about this. They said that essentially, they were out-selling their competitors by so much that it was inevitable that there would be more broken BD crampons than crampons from other brands (Not a direct quote). I'm inclined to not believe this, as a simple survey at a hut will show that one brand is not over represented. It would be interesting to know what the actual percentage of breakages is. But we'll probably never know what it is.
BD seems to have a policy keeping mum on issues that arise - and it's hurting them. An acknowledgement of the problem and that they're working on it would go a long way.
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RDB
Social climber
wa
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Mar 18, 2012 - 02:11pm PT
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"essentially, they were out-selling their competitors by so much that it was inevitable that there would be more broken BD crampons than crampons from other brands (Not a direct quote). I'm inclined to not believe this"
Interesting to see company's internal culture sales speak filter through to their world wide sales staff and then the end users as the "truth".
This was also the claim in the discussion at grav sports on broken BD picks some time back. "We sell the most world wide of course we'll have a more broken picks". I drank the BD koolaid at one time, fell for that line and repeated it myself.
http://www.gravsports-ice.com/icethreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=6363&page=all
Being told "NO Sabers would/will/have broken with a decent rigid boot" (Nepal Evo for example) literally as these showed up on Gravsport opened my own eyes to the fact either upper level BD employees didn't know their own products or there were serious flaws in the specific design/materials of their horizontal ss crampons.
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hossjulia
Social climber
Eastside (of the Tetons)
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Mar 18, 2012 - 02:36pm PT
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Looks like a design flaw to me. Too much stress on the material where it bends there at the front points. SS, and pretty much all metals, as far as I know, have a grain to them. If these were stamped with the grain going against the direction of that bend, well, they would break rather easily. If the grain is going in the same direction as the bend, it is very, very strong. My guess, they got a batch stamped against the grain and can't figure out which batch.
How do I know this? Paul Ramer taught me. :)
I worked for Ramer and while there, we got a whole slew of parts that were stamped wrong. Broken spring bars on bindings and snowshoes & shovel blades breaking with light loads. We also had plastics formulas totally messed up. Yucko and something we jumped on right away. This rash of manufacturing problems did not help Ramers bottom line one bit.
It was the same manufacturer in Denver for all of our parts, so Paul taught me what to look for and sent me down there to QC everything before it was accepted.
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E
Social climber
Tujunga CA.
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Mar 18, 2012 - 03:34pm PT
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my pair are two years old and when used with the spantik boot this combo is the sh#t for tech alpine climbing. No problems with mine.
EE
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Mr_T
Trad climber
Northern California
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Mar 19, 2012 - 01:21pm PT
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Get a pair of Grivels.
Turn your BD pair into a loaner set for when you take friends to TR water ice.
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GrahamJ
climber
In the rain
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Mar 19, 2012 - 01:40pm PT
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then, when the crampons break on your noob friends, you can pretend to get all angry and make them buy you new ones!
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E
Social climber
Tujunga CA.
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Mar 19, 2012 - 02:34pm PT
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hey coz since when are you quaified to make any judgements on alpine gear. flyin a desk these days the way i see it.
guys I have used these crampons in alot of places where it really counted and I have had no problems. My other crampons are petzl darts. The key to hard climbing in the mountains is lightweight but versitle gear, oh and a little boldness of spirit does'nt hurt.
Cheers
EE
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E
Social climber
Tujunga CA.
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Mar 20, 2012 - 12:31am PT
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jesus cosgrove are you f*#ken nuts?
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E
Social climber
Tujunga CA.
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Mar 20, 2012 - 09:01am PT
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hey coz since ya gotta get ugly about stuff uh so lets see your alpine resume. I think that your comment about ditchin my crampons showed personal grieviences that you hold inside. as for the girl sorry that you did'nt get to mess around with her but I think yhat her comment was that you were pathetic and drank all of her and her friends booze. and the stonemaster comment is just downrite wacked
so dig deep my friend and lets see that list of routes that quaifies you to run that mouth the way that you do
double ee
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jfs
Trad climber
Upper Leftish
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Mar 20, 2012 - 11:02am PT
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=
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Mar 20, 2012 - 07:44pm PT
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You can't get Coz to do that stuff.
He gets high off the real thing, the sulpherous smell of freshly chopped rap placed bolts.
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rockermike
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Mar 20, 2012 - 09:13pm PT
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i have not read all of the above, but when BD first started making stainless crampons (and i imagine stealing market share becuase they look so cool) Grivel had a comment on their web site that they too had tried and abandoned stainless becuase of metal fatigue problems. looks like they might have been right.
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Mar 21, 2012 - 03:28pm PT
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bump for good drama
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YoungGun
climber
North
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Mar 21, 2012 - 03:35pm PT
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let's see some pics of the girlfriend!
EDIT: pretty hot photo.
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cybele
Ice climber
the hell of grad school
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Mar 21, 2012 - 10:38pm PT
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Here's yer damn pic. Now shut up all y'all. I can't believe I am reading this crapola. I got work to do.
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E
Social climber
Tujunga CA.
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Mar 21, 2012 - 11:01pm PT
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hey I think that shes runnin sabertooths-See coz ha!
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Stewart Johnson
climber
lake forest
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Mar 21, 2012 - 11:09pm PT
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those are petzyl crampons e, darts i believe.
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E
Social climber
Tujunga CA.
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Mar 21, 2012 - 11:21pm PT
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oops dam er well those are the best crampons-sorry coz
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Mar 21, 2012 - 11:27pm PT
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MTucker is conspicuous by his absense in this thread, as he rarely missed an opportunity to bash Black Diamond, knott to mention Metolius, Yates, DMM, Wild Country, CCH, etc - but never, ever Wired Bliss of course. ;-)
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nature
climber
CO
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Mar 21, 2012 - 11:37pm PT
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BlackGeorge also had a strong opinion.
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Mar 21, 2012 - 11:38pm PT
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You'd have to be a Zombi to knott make the connection...
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Holdplease2
Big Wall climber
Yosemite area
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Mar 22, 2012 - 12:16am PT
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And that would be Cybele leading the 2nd pitch of Ames Ice Hose best as I can tell. Outstanding.
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Mar 22, 2012 - 01:32am PT
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hey I think that shes runnin sabertooths-See coz ha!
Aren't those petzl dartwins actually in the photo (orange/black)?
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Stewart Johnson
climber
lake forest
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Mar 22, 2012 - 09:22am PT
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would you take ss sabretooths on an expedition?
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E
Social climber
Tujunga CA.
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Mar 22, 2012 - 02:53pm PT
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mine are the old aluminum? models. they worked on cholatse which is a three day alpine rig. I bought em for about $80. One thing is with the gear(axes and points) full safety check must be done when doing stuff where you can't have a misshap. Like freesolo on alpine or waterfalls. Each climber is responsable for thier own life.
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cybele
Ice climber
the hell of grad school
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Mar 22, 2012 - 06:34pm PT
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Thank you Kate! I used to have some climbing nerve once in a while... grad school has beat down a large part of that. I am now 4 weeks from graduation with a paper looming over my head that is so big it has a friggin table of contents. This alone seems like a mountain of sorts. Could say is mountainous, anyway.
Yes they are Petzl, but not twins, monos here. Compared to my old Bionics they are much more aggressive and secure. But I traded the annoying sidelock that always glitched out for normal attacher mechanism and replaced the heel spur with the standard heel... At some point I just let go of the ego and admitted that I'll never be needing heel hooks on ice, unless my biceps suddenly become like 50% stronger.
I realize the pic I posted was not exactly what "YoungGun" had in mind...too bad, hahahaha! No way, dude.
:0)
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Stewart Johnson
climber
lake forest
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Mar 23, 2012 - 12:30am PT
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wow e, pretty cocky for someone who only climbs established Himalayan routes. i guess you didnt learn anything over there.
cheers
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Holdplease2
Big Wall climber
Yosemite area
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Mar 23, 2012 - 12:47am PT
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Its all mountains, Cybele, and you are sending.
Looking forward to our paths crossing again.
-Kate.
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ms55401
Trad climber
minneapolis, mn
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Mar 23, 2012 - 01:31am PT
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in a nutshell, what's your beef, coz
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ms55401
Trad climber
minneapolis, mn
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Mar 23, 2012 - 01:48am PT
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you settle down
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E
Social climber
Tujunga CA.
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Mar 23, 2012 - 11:48am PT
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I guess for me the learing curve is bigger than I thought. This is probably why I don't go every year. I think that it is also really tough to do these kinda climbs without training and money. I'm gonna try to plan climbs in asia every year if I can. Not trying to be cocky at all but alot of the climbing that i do is unroped these days. Alpine climbing is for me more of a mental game and that is a good way to improve mental tenacity. It's taken years to get to this level with many hardships along the way.
cheers
EE
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RDB
Social climber
wa
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Mar 23, 2012 - 03:37pm PT
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Well said Coz. You obviously know the corporate culture.
When quizzed at a annual meeting last year "no one" at BD knew anything about crampon failures when questioned on the record by a stock holder.
Saying the employee I was in contact with last year on the topic was simply unaware is being generious indeed.
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aforslund
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Mar 23, 2012 - 05:36pm PT
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Coz
I am the shareholder that RDB is talking about. When I discovered that BD crampons were breaking I did what any shareholder has a right to do. I called in to the quarterly meeting and asked Peter Metcalf directly what BD had to say about it.
Peter Metcalf's response to me was "Our crampons rock! And, I think that you aren't a shareholder. I think you are one of our competitors." Not only was Mr. Metcalf rude but the sales rep for my region was very unprofessional and some of the employees were no better.
BD has never addressed the issue directly. BD continues to deny deny deny at every turn. What it says is that whatever BD's past may be good, bad or otherwise. At this point they are not making me vote for anyone on their board. I was happy to cast my proxy ballot.
Adam Forslund
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aforslund
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Mar 23, 2012 - 07:12pm PT
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I'm still an investor because I want the ability to call in to shareholder meetings. Plus, I like owning them despite the fact that I don't feel like it is a good long term investment. They are in my loss leader column even though they are up since I bought them.
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mike m
Trad climber
black hills
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Mar 23, 2012 - 09:09pm PT
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Is it just the sabertooth? My buddie had the spacer bar break on a pair that he had only wore a couple of times. I have had two pairs of grivels and I beat the holy living hell out of them and they still are tough as nails. I wore them for several seasons of ice climbing, then in the summer while traversing over limestone cliffs to put in sport routes, and currently while chopping holes in thick ice to get to the water to make the ice grow. They have to be over 10 years old and they still are bomber. BD would not replace his broken spacer bar.
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Stewart Johnson
climber
lake forest
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Mar 24, 2012 - 12:57pm PT
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heres another quality control issue i had. as you can see these brand new stainless crampons came with different length frontpoints.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Mar 24, 2012 - 01:50pm PT
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This is very interesting.
My beef with Metcalf was over his personal lack of ethical integrity and his dishonesty, but seeing so many come forward out of such a small pool of consumers that have serious product defect issues has made me suspicious that there is a trickle down effect on BD's corporate culture.
The trick is not to get trickled on.
If Peter doesn't want to face the music perhaps Maria would care to sound off. I know for a fact that she lurks here.
C'mon girl, whatever has happened to the Black Diamond I used to know and respect?
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aforslund
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Mar 24, 2012 - 09:26pm PT
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I wonder if BD's legal counsel knows about the breakages. According to BD's investor relations website their lawyers are http://www.kanekessler.com
Curious to hear what they may have to say.
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JBC
Trad climber
Portland, OR
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Mar 25, 2012 - 11:16pm PT
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This is very interesting.
My beef with Metcalf was over his personal lack of ethical integrity and his dishonesty, but seeing so many come forward out of such a small pool of consumers that have serious product defect issues has made me suspicious that there is a trickle down effect on BD's corporate culture.
I think in most cases that the CEO of a corporation sets the tone. If BDs CEO lacks integrity then it would not surprise me to see it trickle down through the rest of the organization.
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RDB
Social climber
wa
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I have to admit I am more than a little pissed.
Just got home from a week of ice climbing. Found a message on my face book page (that I seldom visit) saying in part, "I'm getting a little nauseated at "Cold Thistle's" mis-informed internet chatter, and slandering of me, and the 500 or so other BD employees and athletes".
Pissed enough to re post part of the private email. BD wants to contact me directly or make an offical comment ON THE RECORD, my phone and email are well known to more than one upper level BD employee. Happy to meet with anyone from BD in person to discuss the topic of stainless crampons.
Or simply post an offical BD rebuttal on the stainless issue @ the blog.
Threatening me personally however, is not an appropriate response.
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JBC
Trad climber
Portland, OR
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Just got home for a week of ice climbing. Found a message on my face book page (that I seldom visit) saying in part, "I'm getting a little nauseated at "Cold Thistle's" mis-informed internet chatter, and slandering of me, and the 500 or so other BD employees and athletes".
Had a much longer response to this, but changed my mind. A concise LAME will do fine I think. Cmon BD!
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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500?
How impressive.
Gee whiz, I wonder just how many downtown SLC employees appreciated Metcalf's threatening their income by making political fodder of their biggest customer, the OR show?
Well,... you can tell that he is half jewish. He has chutzpah. lol
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ncrockclimber
climber
The Desert Oven
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Whether there is or is not a problem with the crampons, BDs response has be very poor. This same attitude has been displayed on other issues that the company has faced. It is sad to see this decline in transparency and customer focus. In a company that makes life-safety products, this is unacceptable.
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SGropp
Mountain climber
Eastsound, Wa
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As a metal worker and a climber, stainless steel would never have been my choice of material for a highly stressed part like a pair of crampons for a number of reasons .
Several other companies , notably Camp, make a line of crampons out of stainless steel. Have there been any reported failures with theirs ?
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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The right stainless alloy "could" be fine if proper testing and re-design was done. But stainless behaves very differently than standard chromo and can be very tricky to work with.
It looks to me that the stainless variant is almost exactly the same as the old chromoly stampings. That sets off the alarm bells right away. I'd be shocked if such a different material could be substituted without any visible differences.
Looks like corners were cut.
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jfs
Trad climber
Upper Leftish
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I'll say this to the repeated comments about BD employees and how they deal with "us", the buying public.
Every single time I have had ANY issues with ANY BD product, whether prodeal, full price, warranty issue, order issues, whatever...every time they have given me absolutely stellar service...often going beyond my expectations.
Every time.
This actually happened again today on a product repair. I have a hard time seeing them as a company that hangs climbers out to dry or doesn't really try to put out good products or stand behind them. The idea they'd do that deliberately just doesn't square with my experience. At all.
I use a LOT of their gear. I hesitate to comment on the sabertooth thing...but this thread and the others like it have gotten a little too hysterical for my tastes. Yeah there may be a problem with it...but blaming some dastardly money-grubbing scheme or ethics just doesn't mesh with my experience.
my $0.02.
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Gene
climber
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peter.metcalf@bdel.com
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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I wouldn't hold my breath coz.
No doubt he has read this but refuses to get drawn in.
Maybe he thinks it will just blow over.
It has been a long time since I climbed ice, but even if I wasn't soloing I figure that one could be seriously injured with a front point failure.
Not addressing this in some manner is hard to explain though.
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jfs
Trad climber
Upper Leftish
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coz, i have no interest in getting in a ridiculous contest with you. Calling me out as a BD troll is certainly your perogative. It's entertaining. But I'm not.
Cheers.
Dane brought up the issue. I think he's a pretty level headed guy and think his opinion is worth listening to. A new BD response would be interesting at this point.
But I've got no desire to join in on the hysterics.
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aforslund
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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When I asked Peter Metcalf about it in an open call during the quarterly meeting I was told "Our crampons rock". Peter Metcalf claimed publicly that he knows nothing about breakage. He then claimed that I wasn't a stockholder but in fact a competitor.
Then I was lied to by the regional rep along with the regional rep making statements that if true would have been illegal. Bill Belcourt told me that all crampons break. When I asked why BD had to add more material to the front of the crampons if they weren't breaking he didn't have an answer that made sense.
Buy a few shares.
Make a phone call.
Warren Kanders the largest shareholder in BDE is a guy that is no stranger to selling defective equipment. Look in to his businesses and how he has run them. With a little work you will see that stock holders have tried to oust him before. His track record of creating value in his holdings is spotty at best and negligent at worst.
Based on what I have heard during the quarterly calls I doubt BD will be in the hardware business in 10 years. They are going to make a push in to clothing. Everyone wants to look like a climber while few people actually climb. The profit on a pair of Yoga pants is a lot better than that of a crampon.
The fact remains. That BD is not addressing the issue in a clear, open and honest way.
Would DMM/Wild Country, Petzl, Grivel, CAMP, Mammut, etc do this?
Would these companies create a smoke screen?
Wild Country recalled the Helium carabiners when they barely hit the street.
DMM recalled the Dragons practically before anyone could put them in a crack.
Petzl recalled the Sarken, Gri-Gri, Nomic fast.
Grivel...
CAMP recalled the Photon carabiner when it was still new and they included the lockers.
Mammut...
At one point BD thought it wise to recall crampons. In 2003 there was a CPSC recall of a 150 pairs of Bionic crampons.
My guess is that BD will maintain the silence. It is cheaper to engage in great customer service than service the climbing community through honesty.
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RDB
Social climber
wa
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There are always at least two sides to every discussion. I am a climber and want to make sure myself and my friends are safe while climbing. End of story. No hidden agenda here. No BD bashing. Just asking for a answer, which should be simple, a safer product.
But it is never a simple answer when you are dealing with a corporation.
Lots of wailing and gnashing of teeth in public. But if a crampon or bike frame fails (REI's most recent delima) and someone is maimed or dies it isn't a specific employee or the current CEO who pays that bill.
If it were things would be different.
We all climb. To me climbing is all about personal responsibility. My profession is all about my willingness to accept full responsibility. I don't get to pass the buck to anyone. And I like it that way. I am human as well and I do what I am capable at any given moment and I make mistakes. I don't think keeping the issue of stainless horizontal crampons in the public eye is a mistake.
I know for a fact that the numbers of broken stainless crampons are not financially signifigant to BD or to a huge retailer like REI. If they were this problem would have been treated differently and quickly solved. There would be no public discussion.
From conversations with BD employees recently and in the past, BD "officially" doesn't think their crampons break. Hard to explain that position when I am holding a broken pair of Sabers in my hands but I understand their position. "They don't break any more than everyone else's crampons".
We might have to agree to disagree on that point however.
It is like we are from two different planets if that is the answer BD is giving.
Numbers (statistics) are easy to play with and manipulate in any direction for show and tell. Good, bad or indifferent..I don't care about your crampons generally. I care about my crampons and my partner's crampons.
BD as a corporation "seems" to only be concerned about the financial end of this equation. Fair enough, that is what corporations do. I own one and that is its ONLY goal. My perception of "seems" may be wrong. But I have nothing to base that assumption on.
We are not talking Yvon banging out pitons on a hammer forge every winter here. BD would be long dead if we were. Bob Culp said something similar a few pages back...we would all have less without BD in our community.
I believe that and think we should remember it. But they are not the golden calf either. If it looks bad..we all know, it generally is bad.
I made a public statement some time back, "don't let friends climb on stainless horizontals". And I don't. But I still use them on occasion simply to test what I have seen and heard.
I had hoped this converstaion would have been dead a year ago. But it obviously isn't when new reports of crampons breaking continue to pop up.
Lets' not kill the messengers here. (which would seem by past actions to be the prefered corporate response) No disrespect intended but how about the 500 employees simply get to work and solve the problem of catastrophic crampon failure?
I am not talking the trivial, broken connecting bar, cracked frame or bent front point like every crampon on the market has on occasion. But the real, no sh#t, catastrophic failure of stainless horizontals. The same catastrophic failure that would more than likely get you seriously fooked up on a climb.
More than a few of us (including BD employees) have picked up bodies in the mtns. I'd rather give BD the corporation a huge pile of PR sh#t than do that ever again. Fix the problem and make me believe it. (bit long in tooth now but certainly possible) And I'll be the first back strapping on a pair of Sabers full time. Hell, I'd even buy them at full retail!
Me climbing in 2nd gen Sabers a couple of weeks ago.
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aforslund
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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"Our crampons rock!"--Peter Metcalf, May 2011
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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The difference between now and 9th grade is that you could die.
-gets my vote for Snappy Comback of the Week (if knott the month).
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Well, if by schoolyard bullying you are referring to coz or me I would offer two responses. First; that we both have legitimate beefs with Metcalf, and second that we ain't having brunch with the Queen here. This is SuperTopo godammit!
Some gobies or bruises are par for the course.
Metcalf can always sign on if he has the stones of a bookseller.
(oh,.... wait,... bad example) lol
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Levy
Big Wall climber
So Cal
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In response to Anders (Mighty Hiker) retort, that BD is always good about responding to gear failures.
A few years ago I had a BD harness that broke inside the webbing that covers the leg loops where they meet the belay loop. I never saw any wear on the outside of the harness, which was about 1 year old. I was lowering off a route I had just done when there was a tearing sound & my harness waistbelt shot up around my ribs while I was hanging way off the deck. I grabbed the rope like a noob & had my partner lower me as fast as safely possible.
I wrote to BD & they never replied to me. I contacted them again & they sent me a new harness. They never had anyone contact me, they never replied. They pretty much acted like it never happened.
I've never trusted BD sewn gear since. True dat!
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ms55401
Trad climber
minneapolis, mn
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Stones of a Bookseller would be a good route name
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ms55401
Trad climber
minneapolis, mn
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for the complainers out there, I suggest the following:
send your sabreteeth to BD with a note saying something like, "I don't trust this gear at all". Copy their legal counsel.
Post the letter here on the Taco (you can obscure sensitive info, of course)
or, since it's easier, continue with the circle jerk
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Stewart Johnson
climber
lake forest
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maybe i just want my money back and ill buy a more reliable crampon!
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Long past due.
I've been saying it for years.
Their moral compass has been skewed for at least 9 years.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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I had not paid any attention to this until today with a quick skim. This
is sad and disturbing. A quick look at RDB's pic of the broken one tells
me that is a real weak point in the design, especially if that was designed
for chrome-moly units. I might also add that if they are using chinese
stainless then they are idiots. I've a close friend whose company goes through
a few million pounds of stainless a year and he quit using chinese stainless
except in non-critical parts. If they are using domestic stainless then it
is almost certainly a design issue, not that they couldn't be getting bogus
US stainless but less likely.
Finally, those of you who are relying on a visual inspection of your crampons
would be well advised to come to your senses. What you can't see will kill you.
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Bump.
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kc
Trad climber
the cats
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I don't know anything about their crampons (I use Grivels), but I had a year old harness that had an issue, and BD was very responsive and took care of me immediately. No complaints from me.
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miwuksurfer
Social climber
Mi-Wuk
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There is a BD ad on the top of the page now. Maybe that had something to do with Coz' thread disappearance...
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Why wouldn't they?
Because their corporate culture has changed?
Yvon needs to hire Guido to go deliver a beatdown.
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oakm
Ice climber
SLC, UT
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Why wouldn't they?
Because their corporate culture has changed?
Do you really think that the "corporate culture" could really drive all of the people at BD responsible for making these products safe and reliable to do nothing about a serious problem? Are you suggesting that engineers would violate their ethical code of conduct and their own conscience just to help the company make an extra dime? They all climb on this stuff too, they have just as much at stake as you.
Another quick comment: How many of you are out there doing dynos on ice while soloing? If my crampon broke in half while I was in the middle of a pitch I would still have my other foot and two bomber ax placements in the ice. It might end my day of climbing, and freak me out a bit, but I'm not going to get killed because of it. My doubles came untied once while i was climbing and my foot was skating around, I couldn't front point! OMG boot laces suck, I could have DIED. Everyone boycott boot makers!!
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oakm
Ice climber
SLC, UT
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you must not make much progress if you always have both feet in the ice.
Touche. I still have 2 bomber axes though...
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Do you really think that the "corporate culture" could really drive all of the people at BD responsible for making these products safe and reliable to do nothing about a serious problem? Are you suggesting that engineers would violate their ethical code of conduct and their own conscience just to help the company make an extra dime?
Even my three year old could answer that.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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If my crampon broke in half while I was in the middle of a pitch I would still have my other foot and two bomber ax placements in the ice. It might end my day of climbing, and freak me out a bit, but I'm not going to get killed because of it.
Hmmm,..
(and you are from SLC)
You got a dog in this fight perhaps?????
Do much soloing??
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oakm
Ice climber
SLC, UT
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Hmmm,..
(and you are from SLC)
You got a dog in this fight perhaps?????
Do much soloing??
I solo enough to know that my crampon won't be what kills me.
It's pretty funny that the majority of you guys hating on BD have not posted any sort of evidence to support your issues. Most of the people that have posted about having gear break or whatever have said pretty positive things about their service.
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Gene
climber
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If my crampon broke in half while I was in the middle of a pitch I would still have my other foot and two bomber ax placements in the ice. It might end my day of climbing, and freak me out a bit, but I'm not going to get killed because of it.
Watch this and get back to me, K?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xdHlyjM_8_E
I don't know enough about the SS Sabertooth to have an opinion worth listening to. However, you minimize the consequences of a gear failure.
g
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Gene
climber
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Most of us are not Steck.
That's why we need to have absolutely no doubts about the quality of our gear. You've made my point. Thanks!
g
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oakm
Ice climber
SLC, UT
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Most of us are not Steck.
That's why we need to have absolutely no doubts about the quality of our gear. You've made my point. Thanks!
How does that prove your point? Are you soloing like he does flailing around wildly out of control? (obviously he is in control but it sure doesn't look like it) You have more margin for error (and possible failure) than someone who is pushing the absolute limits.
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oakm
Ice climber
SLC, UT
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[quote]http://vimeo.com/20549603[/quote]
There is a good chance of falling if you don't know what you are doing like that guy. Remember how bad he got torn apart on the threads last year?
The whole point of using a rope and pro is to protect yourself in case of a fall. If your foot or tool pops, you let go of your tool, your crampons breaks, you get hit with ice, etc. You had the rope to protect yourself, and if you did a good job (unlike that guy) you don't fall that far and you minimize your injury.
If you are out soloing you are taking a known chance that one of those things could happen to you at any moment and it could kill you. If you are willing to accept that risk then good, if not, don't solo. If you are unwilling to accept any of those risks while you are roped up, then don't climb. Like I said; when I solo, I make sure my placements are bomber, that's part of how I mitigate some of that risk.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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I make sure my placements are bomber
Yeah, I luv me some bomber verglace placements! I love to hang around on them and have a smoke.
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aforslund
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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"Our crampons rock!"--Peter Metcalf
Sounds like Oakm thinks that its perfectly reasonable to have a relatively new crampon fail under his foot.
That's fine.
I don't.
I don't think that BD's crampons 'rock'. I think they are a lawsuit waiting to happen. I think that BD refuses to make any sort of rational explanation as to why there are 12+ pairs that have broken and had photographic evidence to show their failure.
Why is it OK to have the front point of crampons break off within the first year of ownership?
Why should I have to count on everything else to save me?
Why won't BD break radio silence on this?
As a user I would like to hear a logical response that holds water. As a shareholder I would like BD to recall all stainless crampons and to go back to Chro-Mo.
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RDB
Social climber
wa
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Let me be as succinct as possible in my answer and with all due respect.
"How many of you are out there doing dynos on ice while soloing? If my crampon broke in half while I was in the middle of a pitch I would still have my other foot and two bomber ax placements in the ice."
You have no fooking clue what you are talking about.
Now if you think you do, I would be happy to have you come follow me soloing ice. I will even loan you a pair of Sabers for the occasion.
It was good a few days ago so if we hurry we can start here:
And yes the invite is always open and I am "dead" serious and tired of the horsesh#t.
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oakm
Ice climber
SLC, UT
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I don't know any trad ice climbers that think a fall on ice is trivial.
A busted leg in the Canadian Rockies in winter would be very serious, possibly fatal.
I don't think a fall on ice is trivial either, I've done it.
A busted leg in the big mountains could be very serious for sure. But I'm not going to ditch my crampons because a supposed 18 pairs have cracked or broken. (I would love to know the real number) 18 pairs may sound like a lot but that number is a total tally that anyone can seem to find over 3+ years of this crampon. Any idea how many they have made in 3+ years? "Our crampon returns in North America for 2010 was .078 percent of sales" this was from BD in one of the forums last year. Do a little math, that means that they have sold over 23000 pairs of crampons. I'll take that chance all day long. That said I view climbing as a calculated risk, we all have to determine for ourselves what is an acceptable level of risk.
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oakm
Ice climber
SLC, UT
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You have no fooking clue what you are talking about.
Now if you think you do, I would be happy to have you come follow me soloing ice. I will even loan you a pair of Sabers for the occasion.
Dane, I don't pretend to be half the climber you are but I know enough to be comfortable with the routes I solo.
I would gladly follow you on a solo climb someday, maybe I could learn something, but I have my own pair to climb on so I won't need to borrow any.
It was good a few days ago so if we hurry we can start here:
Wow, straight up bullying. That does look like a rope in there though...
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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A busted leg in the big mountains could be very serious for sure. But I'm not going to ditch my crampons because a supposed 18 pairs have cracked or broken. (I would love to know the real number) 18 pairs may sound like a lot but that number is a total tally that anyone can seem to find over 3+ years of this crampon.
DUDE! When there are multiple reports of crampon failure- same model/same brand, it is a great reason to stay away from that. Especially for ice climbing, if one is planning to do ANY kind of leading or soloing.
In REI they discard ALL returned climbing gear, even if it was used once. You know why? Because in climbing- your life is on the line. Personally, I love to climb. And I do not plan to injure myself and be set back in training, or die (when climbing stops). And to avoid that, I will use crampons from other brands. From brands that would address the issue, if numerous reports pop up.
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oakm
Ice climber
SLC, UT
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I don't think that BD's crampons 'rock'. I think they are a lawsuit waiting to happen. I think that BD refuses to make any sort of rational explanation as to why there are 12+ pairs that have broken and had photographic evidence to show their failure.
Why is it OK to have the front point of crampons break off within the first year of ownership?
Why no cry out about Petzl Lynx crampon front points breaking off in the first days of climbing on them? There is plenty of photographic evidence of that happening too.
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Black Diamond warrenty? Wonder if those guys know anything about stainless crampons?
http://vimeo.com/10077479
Probably not...ha ha...
Cheers!
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RDB
Social climber
wa
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I don't pretend to be half the climber you are but I know enough to be comfortable with the routes I solo.
On the scale of "real" climbers I aint very far up the list. Guys like Coz are.
But you might want to ask youslf why Coz and I think this issue is important enough to take the heat personally for bringing it up? It aint a BD witch hunt on part. It is about staying safe in the mtns.
I can tell you exactly what it is like to be soloing WI2 and have a crampon fail in the manner the BD stainless horizontals have already on numberious occasions. Bottom line? I would most certainly be dead if it weren't through a simple stroke of luck. So it really doesn't matter what level you climb at or solo at. Betting on a piece of gear by the number sold as opposed to have failed is a fool's game at best.
BD and REI think it is OK. After all the numbers are in their favor. When I strap on a pair of crampons I don't think it is OK to use what appears at this point to be on unreliabable gear. Does anyone? Really?
The first pairs of stainless to pop up broken were just over a year ago. With NO logical explanation from BD. None. Ever. A second "wave" (3 pair) showed up a month or so ago.
BD and the retailer who sells them will be unhappy if and when some one gets hurt from a stainless crampon failure. Pray it aint you soloing at what ever grade you feel comfortable. BD will be unhappy...you'll be lucky to live if my experience is any example.
Wow, straight up bullying. That does look like a rope in there though...
Damn right there is a rope in there. But I wasn't intending to bully you. My apologies if you thought so. Call it a serious reality check. Cuz imo it is a damn serious topic. It is not easy for me or casual. But if you want to tell me soloing in a set of Sabers is OK...I'd spend a week in Canada just to see you prove your point. Happy to just do a week of soloing grade 3 ice with ya.
But to be honest...I wouldn't do it if you were going to use BD stainless horizontals. If something happened to you because a crampon failed I would feel responsible. And I believe the chances are good enough to suggest you not, even to prove our point. I'd rather have a definative answer on why first, from BD, and then how it was fixed. Then maybe I'd be happy to solo in the same 'pons as you.
BD employees and atheletes? I know, have climbed with a few and met many of them. One of the things that I hear over and over is "how they care", and how much gear they break to make sure the products are reliable.
I don't doubt BD employees care. But breaking or using their own gear (which they get cheap) is not the end all to quality control. I'm not paranoid..and I don't give a sheet what BD thinks. But if I won't climb on Sabers because I think they are unreliable ...BD has a freakin problem. And it aint me.
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aforslund
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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I'm not worried about Petzl and the Lynx.
Petzl has a proven track record of recalling gear that they feel needs to be. Personally I didn't think the Nomic needed such a fast recall.
If they are having some breakage I am sure that it will be addressed in an open, honest and timely manner.
Which is what I would like to see form BD.
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Why no cry out about Petzl Lynx crampon front points breaking off in the first days of climbing on them? There is plenty of photographic evidence of that happening too.
Really? Was it brought up to the company, documented, more than one case?
I was thinking of getting a pair of those, but may change my mind of that's the case. Please do post up about that.
Gear failure is a pretty important subject, and we all should publicly report these incidents.
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RDB
Social climber
wa
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Why no cry out about Petzl Lynx crampon front points breaking off
Funny I had that conversation this week with Petzl staff. I have documented a single lonely pair of Lynx that have broken. If you know more I would like to hear it. Although Petzl admitted to more than just the one pair in Italy early in the season. They also said they have had fewer returns by percentage on the Lynx than the Dart and Dartwin over the years. Darts and Dartwins are well proven and really tough crampons.
They might break a front point on occasion but no one from Petzl telling us it is user error, or the wrong boot, or a beginning climber's issue.
Adam is right. The Nomic recall was a surprise and may be over the top imo. As it wasn't ever a safety issue. But because of that and other corporate actions Petzl certainly has no credibility issues. Our community is well aware Petzl is looking out for its customers.
BD? This thread is proof they missed that boat a year ago.
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Bob Culp
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
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These threads are insidious. They are diabolical. They draw you in when you know better.
I have gone so far as to put 3 little sticky notes on my computer. They say DO NOT POST
And yet -
Here I am - posting.
I don't think the point here is chromo vs stainless. I've heard enough knowledgeable folks weighing in on the subject I'm prepared to believe chromo is superior. However - I also see no reason why a reasonably good crampon cannot be made of stainless. Maybe it would get dull faster or the points bend or something. Whatever.
Seems to me the point is this:
Is BD selling a flawed product? I don't know. All I hear is rumors from people who are obviously convinced they are - but to me they are just rumors. I would feel a lot better - well not a lot since I don't care all that much - if BD would make some kind of public statement one way or the other. I'm pretty much prepared to take very seriously anything they might say.
Peter Metcalf's supposed statement "Our crampons rock!" does not address the issue. Of course they rock. I have a new pair of Stingers and as far as I'm concerned they are the absolute best crampons I've ever used.
Will they break? Well I don't think so. But then they are not Sabertooths and I have no experience with those.
I'm sure there are thousands of highly skilled ice climbers who could have a crampon break and merrily carry on. So what? That's not the point either.
I myself have had picks break and even had crampons come clear off my boot at least a couple times. I'm sure it's due to my decades of experience and lightning quick reflexes that saved me. Although now I think of it I do climb with a lot of people who have neither. I'm not sure they even have slow reflexes a lot of the time.
The point is - Are BD Sabertooth crampons defective? Are there a lot of breakage instances or is this just a tempest in a teapot with a bunch of idiots like myself prattling away just because they can?
What I find worrisome - not really, don't really care - is silence from BD.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Bravo Bob.
You SHOULD post.
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Stewart Johnson
climber
lake forest
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why would black diamond piss down our backs and tell us its raining?
if crampons are breaking they are not strong enough.pretty simple.
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oakm
Ice climber
SLC, UT
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So at least 2 pairs of lynx have had broken front points, some dude in the NE and at least one guy in Italy. Those 'pons have only been out for a few months, at that rate they could have just as many or more returns than BD. No recall has been posted by Petzl on that crampon, so again why no outcry on that?
I'm not trying to bash Petzl either, they make great products, but their gear breaks too, so does Grivels, and Camp etc.
I understand completely why people want an answer from BD. I do too. Give them some time, I'm sure they will have an answer. But do you really expect anyone from BD to come on this forum and try to appease this mob? That would be insane, I have gotten beat up bad enough just trying to defend it a tiny bit. You are asking them to post here just so you can beat them up.
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oakm
Ice climber
SLC, UT
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if crampons are breaking they are not strong enough.pretty simple.
Weight = strength.
Guys pushing the limits are sharing sleeping bags, and not bringing packs to cut weight on hard routes. Would they be willing to climb in an unbreakable crampon that weighted 2x or more what new ones weigh?
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RDB
Social climber
wa
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Give them some time, I'm sure they will have an answer.
Sorry you are late to the party and no intention here to beat you up. The Lynx have been out longer than you have suggested. Two pair of broken crampons isn't what BD has had. And most importantly Petzl hasn't tried to "excuse" themselves from the discussion as Belcourt did on Gravsports last year as "operator error" and "samples".
This discussion is well over a year old now. Not 2 pairs of crampons in a season.
Your Weight = strength holds no water.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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I don crampons only once every couple of years, but I do know a little about practical metallurgy.
What alloy is BD using?
NONE of the austenitic stainless steels are heat treatable (300 series)
The Martensitic (400 series) are as well as the precipitation hardening alloys (17 series)are,but those are really expensive and I doubt anyone would be stamping crampons out of them. The only stainless I'd want a crampon made out of would be 17-4,as a forging, not stamped.
Rolled plate also develops a preferred grain direction. Crampons are punched from plate.
It could be something as simple as orienting the raw plate the wrong way in the stamping press.
CroMo especially the 41XX series has a long and well understood history with climbing appurtenances, but even then working metal is as much art as science.
The art portion doesn't outsource readily.
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oakm
Ice climber
SLC, UT
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And most importantly Petzl hasn't tried to "excuse" themselves from the discussion as Belcourt did on Gravsports last year as "operator error" and "samples".
Belcourt also mentioned that crampons are more likely to break if boots are too flexible for the crampon configuration. And he went on to say that they were going to switch to flex bars in crampons to help account for this. So he isn't just trying to blame everyone else, although I'm sure that "samples" and "user error" could be the case for at least a couple of those broken pairs. Maybe flex bars are the answer,Grivel has them too, there must be a reason.
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oakm
Ice climber
SLC, UT
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I don crampons only once every couple of years, but I do know a little about practical metallurgy.
What alloy is BD using?
NONE of the austenitic stainless steels are heat treatable (300 series)
The Martensitic (400 series) are as well as the precipitation hardening alloys (17 series)are,but those are really expensive and I doubt anyone would be stamping crampons out of them. The only stainless I'd want a crampon made out of would be 17-4,as a forging, not stamped.
Rolled plate also develops a preferred grain direction. Crampons are punched from plate.
It could be something as simple as orienting the raw plate the wrong way in the stamping press.
CroMo especially the 41XX series has a long and well understood history with climbing appurtenances, but even then working metal is as much art as science.
The art portion doesn't outsource readily.
Grain direction is definitely important.
Lots of knife blades are made out of various 400 series stainless steels, they seem to work just fine...
I really like the Art vs science comment... Very true.
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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I think they are ferromagnetic.
Not 300 series.
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RDB
Social climber
wa
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Belcourt also mentioned that crampons are more likely to break if boots are too flexible for the crampon configuration.
Ya, the boots Bill was refering to in that post was a pair of new Nepal Evos. Helps to have full disclosure and the context if you want to discuss the topic in an educated manner. Same boot which at the time Bill was climbing in himself. No way anyone can realistically call a new pair of the Nepal Evos flexiable. At that point I started questioning anything coming from BD on the subject. It was nothing but spin imo.
Again with all due respect, the defenses you have offered are ill informed and uneducated.
FWIW BD horizontal crampons are laser cut from plate then cold formed in SLC last I checked in person (2 years ago), not stamped.
Knife blades? There is no, I repeat. NO, relationship to the proper steel needed for a quality stainless knife blade and a good pair of crampons. I've made pleanty of expensive, collector quality knives so it is an easy comment to make and back up.
I'm sure that "samples" and "user error" could be the case for at least a couple of those broken pairs.
I have been climbing a long time and have a fair back ground in metalurgy and manufacturing. I have never..as in NEVER seen a pair of crampons broken by user error. Not impossible I guess just never seen it.
This seems a more reliable comment.
I understand completely why people want an answer from BD. I do too.
Simple, direct and not unreasoned.
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oakm
Ice climber
SLC, UT
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Again with all due respect, the defenses you have offered are ill informed and uneducated.
FWIW BD horizontal crampons are laser cut from plate then cold formed in SLC last I checked in person (2 years ago), not stamped.
Knife blades? There is no, I repeat. NO, relationship to the proper steel needed for a quality stainless knife blade and a pair of crampons. Again you need more info on steel and manufacturing if that is your response.
I'm sure that "samples" and "user error" could be the case for at least a couple of those broken pairs.
And you came to this conclusion how? I have been climbing a long time and have a fair back ground in metalurgy and manufacturing. I have never..as in NEVER seen a pair of crampons broken by user error. Educate us as to why you are sure that is the case here.
Dane, I know how BD makes crampons, I saw it myself when I toured the factory about 6 months ago.
As far as the knife thing goes, sure its not an apples to apples comparison, it wasn't meant to be. But people like you seem so convinced that stainless has no place at all in any type of application like this. A knife is a pretty high abuse item that climbers are used to. If stainless was such a horrible material why would you use it on something else you rely on to not break?
"I'm sure that "samples" and "user error" could be the case for at least a couple of those broken pairs."
If you read the entirety of that sentence you would notice there is the word 'could' which is defined as: Used to indicate possibility.
I will stand by that statement; I'm sure that misuse etc, is a possible explanation for some of the breakage. I will try to be a little more careful in my wording so as not to confuse anyone else.
"I have been climbing a long time and have a fair back ground in metalurgy and manufacturing."
What's your background? Please enlighten me? I'm sick of people claiming to be experts on things with no credentials. I have a degree in Mechanical and Nuclear engineering and work in an aerospace manufacturing facility, we do sheet metal forming of everything from stainless steel to titanium. We make parts for helicopters all the time to replace ones that break, like KP said in the last BD Lab report, Everything breaks.
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RDB
Social climber
wa
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What's your background? Please enlighten me? I'm sick of people claiming to be experts on things with no credentials.
Curious..have you ever written under the name Halifax or Oaklem?
Let me be clear. I have never claimed to be an expert on anything. I have how ever made a decent living for the past 20 or so years designing, building and heat treating high end guns, knives and small machine parts. Hands on from design through manufacturing and retailing. And much of it from stainless. Including some amazingly durable and stupidly expensive BD picks from esoteric alloys among other projects. I have always written under my own name or initials every where on the net. So I am easy to verify. Not everyone is.
I have tried to not make this a personal attack. But it is hard not too imo from the recent comments. It is very common to break a knife blade....any knife blade. The consequences are seldom fatal even on the battle field. When given a choice almost to man, knowledgable makers/users of knives will select a chromoly blade over a stainless one btw. Forged as well. Not a version from simple stock removal. The reason? Stength and grain alignment. As I said previous I think you are ill informed on the current topic. It aint apples to apples or even remotly close. Why would you make such a ill concieved comparison?
Which is why I also quoted you in context and in full. "You are sure it could be the result.." Dude, you really need to run for office with that answer.
I am just as sure I don't want my friends climbing on stainless horizontals until BD comes up with some believeable answers or we stop getting reports of broken crampons. Likely the latter but the damage to the brand by that time will just as likely be noticable in their sales I suspect. Obviously BD thinks what they are doing is the right way to deal with the subject. Because sure, "everything breaks." And you don't see the obvious spin here?
I have been ice climbing since the early '70s. I keep hearing "everything breaks" which seriously is the new BD party line. I believe I have a good basis to judge what "every thing" is, in this context. And generally what the "normal" break might be. You can disagree if you like.
I have disputed much of what you have said in this thread or flatly disagreed with you because I think you are ill informed on the subject and wrong. I have noted however you have not bothered to rebutt a number of my comments that seem on point rather you just change he subject.
I have yet to find a metalurgical engineer who disagrees with my stance on stainless crampons and how these crampons in particular are being manufactured. I have no doubt a reliable stainless crampon can be made...the Cyborg and Stingers are good examples of a reliable stainless design and build process.
Bottom line is I don't care what your formal education is. BD has what, 8 engineers that do product failure testing in house? If you are going to tell me that the catatrophioc failures BD has experienced on the horizontal crampons, for over a year, is "OK"..or the norm, or within reason...as a simple climber..I call bs.
IMO there has never been a reasonable explanation for the failures. I do know there was a inline design change that added 38% by BDs own admission to solve the breakage issue some time in late 2010 or early 2011. If that had solved the problem we wouldn't be having the conversation now imo. But then you can still walk into some retailers and buy the 1st gen Sabers. btdt myself. So..as an engineer what would be your thoughts on all that?
"Interesting observation from a picture. 2nd gen Saber on the left and 1st generation Saber on the right. Serac's look to have added the same amount of material to the forward rails. Difference across the flat, in the same area as the breaks above, has gone from .53" to .70". Or if my numbers are correct, a 38% increase in material to the rails. The center bar on the front points went from .50" to .62" or 24%."
I am not convinced. I'll be soloing in crampons tomorrow if I can get out of bed. And you can bet it won't be on any BD gear simply because we are still having this conversation.
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aforslund
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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It's clear that BD won't address the issue at hand in a clear, concise, open and honest manner.
All of which means that BD is not looking out for the people that use their gear.
Warren Kanders and Peter Metcalf bought $10,000,000.00 worth of shares in March within the span of one week. Warren Kanders knowingly sold defective body armor to the US Government and had to pay a fraction of the cost back in a lawsuit.
No one from BD is willing to openly discuss their dangerous product.
Why then silence?
If Petzl had 18+ pair of Lynx break there would be a recall.
Oakm claims that there is overwhelming photographic evidence of Lynx breakage yet with multiple searches I could find none. I called Petzl and they said that there have been 3 pairs in North America that broke. They said that they are keenly watching the problem to see if it grows and if it deserves a recall.
Petzl is honest.
Petzl is looking out for the climbing community no matter how small of a percentage it is of sales that come back as failures.
1) If there was no problem why did BD add 38% more material to the Sabertooth?
2) If all crampons break why is it that no one else reports the same type of breakage in the same manner in the same time frame? Vasak and G12 don't seem to be breaking.
3) Why won't BD admit that they made a poor choice in material?
4) Why is BD claiming that it is the boot causing the failures when the same boot doesn't fail other crampons of similar design?
5) Why is BD not openly addressing the problem to the climbing community?
6) Why as a community are we questioning a major supplier of equipment?
If a car had a major failure that could result in death there would have been a recall with far less than 18 documented units. The CPSC would have gotten involved long ago. BD is not looking out for our interests as climbers. BD is not looking out for my interests as a shareholder. BD is hoping with all desperation that this just goes away and they can go back to making "Crampons that rock!".
Sorry Peter. You aren't running a little business in SLC anymore. You're on Wall Street now and that means that there are people that pay attention.
My suggestion is to buy BDE. Buy it and vote against Peter Metcalf. Vote against Warren Kanders.
Black Diamond doesn't give a sh#t about climbers.
If BDE cared Belcourt would say why crampons are failing in a way that their competitors crampons aren't. BDE would say why boots are causing a crampons to break. BDE would explain why it is only BD Crampons seem to break with "flexible" boots when Grivel and Petzl seem to accept flexible boots just fine. Belcourt would also be able to explain why BDE added 38% more material to a crampon that wasn't breaking...Why add material then?
BD is not an 'employee owned' company. I am a shareholder and I demand answers.
Come on BD....
As for OakM.
You seem to be the mouthpiece of BD do you want to speak on the record.
Who are you??
At this point you are on record defending Black Diamond Equipment.
From here on out I am going to claim your statements as public record of Black Diamond Equipment (BDE) unless you make a valid claim that you do not work for and do not take payment from Black Diamond Equipment (BDE).
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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This is not just another message board. This is the Taco.
Credibility is linked to identity.
Man up or shut up.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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If a car had a major failure that could result in death there would have been a recall with far less than 18 documented units.
You make a good argument, but this point is weak. There are way too many cases where it has taken hundreds of incidents before a recall happened because it often is about the cost benefit ratio.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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There are way too many cases where it has taken hundreds of incidents before a recall happened because it often is about the cost benefit ratio.
Which once again brings it back to a question of corporate culture!
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Russ Walling
Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
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Say.... what happened to the "Metcalf Countdown Clock" that Coz was running?????
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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I don't know about a clock but oakm said;
the majority of you guys hating on BD have not posted any sort of evidence to support your issues
Let Metcalf go on the record and say he never lied to me,..
I will have something to offer up regarding his credibility.
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oakm
Ice climber
SLC, UT
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I have disputed much of what you have said in this thread or flatly disagreed with you because I think you are ill informed on the subject and wrong. I have noted however you have not bothered to rebutt a number of my comments that seem on point rather you just change he subject.
Feel free to send me a list of things I have either ignored or not answered thoroughly and Ill see what I can do. BTW I love how you have edited your posts after I have replied to them on almost every occasion.
aforslund, you can say what ever you want, so can I. That's the beauty of an internet forum, and hell our first amendment rights. One of the great things is I don't have to prove or disprove anything to you or you to me. I also don't have to tell anyone my real name or anything else. If you feel that it gives you more credibility, good for you.
As for Petzl always doing the right thing. It took them 3 years to recall the sarken crampons. And if they were so concerned as you have said and would recall on the smallest number or returns why wouldn't they recall the Lynx with 2 or 3 broken sets? They still broke didn't they?
At some point someone needs to say what an acceptable percentage is for a broken crampon, for all companies. Is it 1/1000, 1/10000, 1/10000000? Whats the number?
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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I don't have to prove or disprove anything to you or you to me. I also don't have to tell anyone my real name or anything else.
That doesn't diminish your credibility.
It eliminates it.
Chris should nuke you so people aren't distracted.
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oakm
Ice climber
SLC, UT
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That doesn't diminish your credibility.
It eliminates it.
Chris should nuke you so people aren't distracted.
Sweet that means I don't have to waste the rest of my day on here.
Let the nuking commence!
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Does that mean you are leaving?
It would be so nice if you weren't here.
See you later Peter.
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spidey
Trad climber
Berkeley CA
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"At some point someone needs to say what an acceptable percentage is for a broken crampon, for all companies. Is it 1/1000, 1/10000, 1/10000000? Whats the number?"
At some point someone from each company whose crampons are breaking needs to decide that for themselves. And they need to figure out why they are breaking, and fix it so they don't break. And they need to make sure that everyone who already bought their breakable crampons is taken care of with either a refund or a non-breakable pair.
I have a pair of Stainless Sabertooths (as well as a whole lot of other BD gear). Frankly after reading this thread and the Coldthistle blog posts about it I am scared to use them or let friends use them for anything except top-roping, and I'm pretty bummed that I fell for the stainless steel marketing BS they put out. I was a big fan of BD gear for years, but I'm seriously disapointed in the lack of a real answer as to why their crampons are breaking and what they are going to do about it. It sounds like Kanders is up to his old tricks and the predictions of BD quality going downhill after the acquisition are starting to come true.
I don't want to risk my life or my friend's lives using suspect gear or support a company owned by a guy like Warren Kanders with a history of knowingly selling defective safety gear to the military, and currently selling defective safety gear to climbers.
Thanks BD, it was fun while it lasted.
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Bob Culp
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
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Where would you find one like YC?
I had one of the first pair of his crampons. Boy were they sweet!
I noticed a couple little cracks but kept on using them. We were taking our gear out of the car at the telepherique in Cham and I threw my pack onto the pavement.
My partner said "Bob, your crampons just broke." Son of a gun. So they had. We went rock climbing.
When YC got wind of the problem he started trying things to fix it and the end result was a complete redesign that sadly never seemed to climb as well. He didn't wait around to act though.
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Gene
climber
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Seems like BDE's Cerro Torre and Torre Egger days ended 12 years ago.
g
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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LOL
Fitzroy punked out!
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Gene
climber
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Fitzroy punked out!
Yeah. BDE forgot its roots/routes.
g
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ncrockclimber
climber
The Desert Oven
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I find it interesting that Oakm has only 16 posts, all in this thread. I also find his comments regarding the quantity of BD crampons sold to be very interesting. He states that you just need to "do the math" to get to the 23000 unit sold number. However, you need to have a lot more information about BDs financials to back-into that quantity estimate. Maybe that info is more readily available than I think it is, but I doubt it. In other words, he seems VERY well informed from someone who is not inside the BD organization.
I am not going to go as far as to say that Oakm is a member of BD management or ownership. However, I will say that the content of his posts thus far make me very suspicious. I do not think this would have been the case 15 years ago; someone from BD would have already directly responded.
From what I have seen, BD has blamed the root cause of the failures on other equipment (boots), stated that it may have been samples or prototypes, been less than transparent and definitely lacked of a consistent message regarding this issue. Although this type of behavior is all too typical of many organizations, seeing it from a company that produces life safety equipment is deeply troubling. This incident, along with the change in management and moving a significant amount of production to China make me seriously question my previously high opinion of the BD organization.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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ncrockclimber,
see my response to his first post.
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oakm
Ice climber
SLC, UT
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He states that you just need to "do the math" to get to the 23000 unit sold number. However, you need to have a lot more information about BDs financials to back-into that quantity estimate.
18 broken crampons is what I based this off of.
crampons broken = .078% of crampon sales (it makes sense that this is a qty not a $ amount based on BDs annual sales, otherwise the cost a pair of sabertooths be just shy of $100K)
so quick math 18/.00078 (don't forget to move your decimal 2 places its a %...) = ~23077 pairs
And for you statistics buffs out there that is a 4.7sigma process. There are lots of climbing, and medical device manufacturing companies out there that are only 3 sigma (that's all a wild country harness is rated to) And I climb on one of those too.
The main point that I have been trying to make is that it is impossible to make a piece of gear, a car, a space shuttle or anything else that is impervious to breaking.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Which is why we have recalls when there is a danger to the consumer.
Some companies get on them right away while others wait until it is too late and then try to sweep it under the carpet.
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oakm
Ice climber
SLC, UT
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Which is why we have recalls when there is a danger to the consumer.
So when is the right time to have that recall? How many/what percentage have to break for it to be a danger to the consumer vs freak occurrence?
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Gene
climber
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A freak occurrence is a distinct, unique, inexplicable, and unpredictable failure.
When there are multiple failures of specific aspects of one product, the situation is no longer a freak occurrence. It's a problem.
Only one has to break to be a danger to the consumer.
g
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El Bucanero
climber
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Narrator: A new car built by my company leaves somewhere traveling at 60 mph. The rear differential locks up. The car crashes and burns with everyone trapped inside. Now, should we initiate a recall? Take the number of vehicles in the field, A, multiply by the probable rate of failure, B, multiply by the average out-of-court settlement, C. A times B times C equals X. If X is less than the cost of a recall, we don't do one.
Business woman on plane: Are there a lot of these kinds of accidents?
Narrator: You wouldn't believe.
Business woman on plane: Which car company do you work for?
Narrator: A major one.
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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One single death or serious disability due to this crampon failure and the price will skyrocket for BD, especially as this is clearly public knowledge now. This thread and internal emails discussing it would be exhibit one in a court case. Then they'd have to recall them anyway, but only after paying out how many millions of $ ?
I'm not an attorney, I don't even play one on the internet and even I know this stuff.
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ncrockclimber
climber
The Desert Oven
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I see how you got to that number. I that if that is all the math you are doing, you are making a ton of assumptions and missing key information that make your 23,000 number very questionable. However, I will concede that no inside information is required for that calculation.
I also get your point; that the failure number is very low if BDs failure rate on SS crampons is only.78%. However, if the failure rate is so low and inconsequential, why did BD redesign the product and add material to the area where the failures are occurring? Also, stating that returns in 2010 were only .78% of sales tells us very little by itself. What % of those returns were pre stainless steel and which were stainless? How old were the SS crampons that failed? How do the failure number differ between SS and non-ss crampons? I could go on, but I think you get my point. Just like the 23,000 number, the .78% quoted by BD does not prove that SS crampons are not failing in significant numbers. Quoting facts like that sounds great, but it only serves to obfuscate the issue with data that is not relevant.
In the end, it goes back to the credibility of an organization that makes life safety equipment. You, and BD by virtue of its silence, seem to believe that 18 failures is not important enough to warrant a response. A significant sampling of Supertopo poster on this thread seem to feel very differently. I personally feel that BDs actions (or lack thereof) evidence a shift in corporate culture. My perception of that shift is going to make me much less likely to buy their products in the future.
BTW, you asked how many failures are acceptable. I would say less than 18. A lot less.
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RDB
Social climber
wa
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At some point someone needs to say what an acceptable percentage is for a broken crampon, for all companies. Is it 1/1000, 1/10000, 1/10000000? Whats the number?
Intentional or not the real issue isn't being addressed but simply ignored, converted to numbers and then we are sent looking for some kind of justification. A justification of BD crampon failures done by the numbers.
Accountant's and engineers' answers, to an actual climbing and climber's problem. A rather personal problem if the faulty crampons end up on your boots.
Yes crampons break. Everyone's crampons. Old story there.
No one educated on the subject would argue that.
But to simply blow off the topic as BD has and continues to do is disengenious at best.
The real point here is not how many crampons per 1000 break. I have already repeated what both BD and REI have said to me in private. The corporations find no reason to be concerned about the % of BD crampons breaking. The number of returned crampons is just not signifigant enough in number to make it economically important to either. I understand that.
I think the real concern is the fact that this particular crampon (BD's stainless horizontals) break in a catastrophic manner. This is not the common crampon break we are seeing here nor has it been seen on any other crampons that I know of in the past 30 years.
Cracks in the frame, broken bars or bent parts are rather uncommon compared to the number of crampons in use world wide but do happen across the various crampon brands. What we generally do not see is a crampon breaking in half and falling off the boot.
There is one slightly similar comparison..that of the stainless front bails on the earlier Darts work hardening in use and failing. Bails have failed. In that particular brand the crampon frames typically do not.
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ms55401
Trad climber
minneapolis, mn
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when did BD become a publicly-traded company? who was majority owner beforehand?
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RDB
Social climber
wa
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Tuesday May 11 2011
The $135 million deal announced Monday is being engineered investors Clarus Corp., based in Stamford, Conn.
Clarus said it was paying $90 million in cash for Black Diamond and $45 million for Gregory Mountain Products. Half of the Gregory payment will be in stock at $6 a share and the rest in a seven-year, 5 percent note.
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/700031206/Utah-gear-maker-Black-Diamond-to-go-public-join-with-another-company.html
FYI our "Oakm" here at ST is also "Oaklem" on NEI. And he seems a little confused on where he lives, "I live near Albany NY and I go to the dacks almost every weekend ". May be he has moved to SLC just recently. Either way he is currently working pretty hard to bad mouth Petzl and support BD on both coasts. Secret agent he isn't...but a Troll, sure.
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spidey
Trad climber
Berkeley CA
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So let's say that BD has sold 23,000 pairs of these crampons, as suggested above. And let's assume it would cost BD approximately $50-100 each to recall and replace every single pair with a new pair of a different model or equivalent value in other gear (depending on what their actual cost is per pair sold). This would come out to between $1,150,000 to $2,300,000.
If one person dies before they recall them the legal fees plus settlement/judgement costs could quite easily exceed those amounts, and they would still have to recall all of them, and then they would have a PR disaster on their hands on top of that. Seems like the smart thing would be to just do a recall before that happens. Petzl seems to have figured this out.
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WBraun
climber
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Coz
I highly doubt Metcalf can even respond to this thread.
As the CEO of Black Diamond he would be at risk for anything he says here pertaining to this subject matter.
Just the way it is.
Black Diamond will respond however thru their official channels only I bet.
That's the nature of the corporate world ......
Best of luck guys.
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Todd Eastman
climber
Bellingham, WA
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My guess is that the 23,000 number for crampon sales is ALL crampons sold and not specifically the SS ones.
If this is indeed the case, the computations made about the risk analysis are distortions.
Please correct me if I am mistaken.
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JBC
Trad climber
Portland, OR
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This has been an interesting thread and I certainly agree with those who want an answer from BD on this issue. I doubt that if they have not seen fit to address the issue in the past year they are unlikely to do so now. I don't believe for a minute that this thread will change that. I doubt that even the Taco has that kind of influence. :)
However if those that have information on this issue (particularly those with broken crampons) were to contact the CPSC that might have a tendency to 'focus BD's attention' on answering the issue. One thing worse than a recall is a CPSC MANDATED recall!
JBC
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Holdplease2
Big Wall climber
Yosemite area
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So hasn't BD been selling non-stainless sabertooths for a really long time? So shouldn't there be many more pairs of those on the market with many more climbing-years of use on the average pair? Therefore, if the stainless ones are no less durable than the old ones, wouldn't there be many many more failures of the non-stainless ones?
Is there anybody who has had a non-stainless pair have the same failure?
If not, then that is weird, and it seems like there is a problem with the stainless ones.
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Jim Hefner
climber
La Verne, CA
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Time for my .02.
I rarely post on this forum as there are generally, as this thread demonstrates, too many posers, trolls, bullies, and plain old angry negative people. I believe many quality posters are deterred from this place due to the above sorts, lack of moderation, and lack of sub-forums. My apologies for being off topic so quickly but I really wish this place was run differently...
Anyway, I've seen the failed crampons first-hand and have been following the issue over at Cold Thistle (Dane's blog) for awhile. I don't own any of these crampons so I'm not concerned about them failing on me while soloing, run out between screws, or walking off stuff. I am, however, quite concerned by BD's lack of response and/or remedy.
Also, I must say, attacking Dane as not being credible or having an agenda/vendetta with BD is a waste of energy. Dane has been climbing at a super solid level for a very very long time. He is also smart as well as objective in evaluating equipment. He buys most of the stuff he tests and even if 'given' gear to test he reviews it with as much a lack of bias possible. Frankly, I've heard rumors of him taking heat from manufacturers for being 'too objective' (honest) in the past. It is precisely his integrity and consistency in evaluating stuff what has made his blog so valuable to many alpinists.
Anyway, I've been buying and using tons of BD equipment for close to 20 years. I make a good living and drop a lot of cash (at retail) on outdoor/climbing equipment. For perspective I've got at least double BD cams from tiny to #5, draws, hundreds of biners, ledge, fly, bags, packs, lights, tents, ropes, screws, 3 sets of crampons, 3 sets of ice tools, etc. I toss out that likely abbreviated laundry list of stuff not to try to add credibility my point but to rather to say that in the past, because of BD quality, testing, and service I ALWAYS looked to BD first. Now, however, after this single issue with what I believe to be faulty/defective crampons (we can discuss statistics vs quarterly earning separately), I am second guessing ALL the equipment BD makes.
This last paragraph is for the PE (private equity) or other executive officers over at BD likely monitoring this thread. Your lack of response in dealing with this issue is devaluing your brand. (At least your brand as it pertains to hardgoods/gear) If your intention is to focus on softgoods and have little regard for your core users, then my decision to begin to not look to BD first for will have proven to be prophetic.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Hefner hits a homer.
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Hefner hits a homer
Grand slam is more like it. Excellent post. Black Diamond's silence on this issue is deafening! I miss the good old days when Chris Harmston (former Quality Assurance Manager at BDE) regularly posted on rec.climbing newsgroup, and am still grateful for his most excellent post after analyzing Dan Osman's jump rope after it was taken down and sent to him. Cheers, Chris!
I rarely post on this forum as there are generally, as this thread demonstrates, too many posers, trolls, bullies, and plain old angry negative people. I believe many quality posters are deterred from this place due to the above sorts, lack of moderation, and lack of sub-forums. My apologies for being off topic so quickly but I really wish this place was run differently...
If you think it's bad now, you should have seen it a couple months ago. Or heaven forbid, in the pre-registration daze. The lack of moderation is actually something to celebrate for the most part. A good example of what knott to do was rock climbing.com with its power-tripping, overzealous moderators. Egos run amok!
The sub-forum idea has been hashed out here too many times to count. Don't hold your breath. In fact, many people including myself admire its simplicity. I wish there were less OT posts, but oh well. You can do your part to make the forum better by emailing C-Mac about specific's when you encounter them. He does care, as his recent spectacular (and overdue) house-cleaning attests.
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WBraun
climber
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"I miss the good old days when Chris Harmston (former Quality Assurance Manager at BDE) regularly posted ....."
Yes plus 10 for that.
That is good business and good customer relations for a company .....
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Indeed, it is precisely the reason I would often choose Black Diamond when there were other options...
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
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What Black Diamond means to me as a regular buyer of their gear is a product that was built and developed by a young Yvon Chouinard in the Spirit of John Salathe.
Yvon cut through the commercial and economic clutter of price point & value in the late 60's and early 70's and made solid hardware and practical clothing.
If the company looses the culture of quality he created the investors will loose all.
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Stewart Johnson
climber
lake forest
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after 28 years of using chouinard/black diamond equipment,
im probably not going to stop. the equipment bd makes has always performed quite well in the mountains. too bad aboot the crampons
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Well, to be fair, somebody should contact BD and ask them to respond here, and then report back of having done so. (Although I find it pretty hard to believe that they don't know about this thread yet.)
I would do it myself, but the last time I called BD Peter wouldn't take my call.
I guess he was too busy figuring out how to separate climbers from cash.
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Bob Culp
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
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As a matter of curiosity - is stainless steel cheaper or easier to work with than chrome moly? Just askin.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Not really. The raw stainless is a little more expensive, but not much. The CrMo should be aircraft grade and have all the proper certs as well so the raw material costs probably aren't all that different.
From the FAQs at the British Stainless Steel Association;
Can I use stainless steel at low temperatures?
Austenitic stainless steels are extensively used for service down to as low as liquid helium temperature (-269 deg C). This is largely due to the lack of a clearly defined transition from ductile to brittle fracture in impact toughness testing.
Toughness is measured by impacting a small sample with a swinging hammer. The distance which the hammer swings after impact is a measure of the toughness. The shorter the distance, the tougher the steel as the energy of the hammer is absorbed by the sample. Toughness is measured in Joules (J). Minimum values of toughness are specified for different applications. A value of 40 J is regarded as reasonable for most service conditions.
Steels with ferritic or martensitic structures show a sudden change from ductile (safe) to brittle (unsafe) fracture over a small temperature difference. Even the best of these steels show this behaviour at temperatures higher than -100 deg C and in many cases only just below zero.
In contrast austenitic steels only show a gradual fall in the impact toughness value and are still well above 100 J at -196 deg C. See Selection of stainless steels for cryogenic applications.
Another factor in affecting the choice of steel at low temperature is the ability to resist transformation from austenite to martensite. This factor is discussed in more detail in Composition effects on the magnetic permeability of austenitic stainless steels.
http://www.bssa.org.uk/faq.php?id=26
Brian in SLC
I think they are ferromagnetic.
Not 300 series.
This means they are Martensitic or Feritic
Austenitic stainless is non magnetic as well as not being heat treatable.
From another source
Experience with brittle fracture of steel ships during the World War II demonstrated that while many metals have good "room-temperature" characteristics they would not perform adequately at low temperatures. For example Ferritic (405, 409, 430), Martensitic (403, 410, 414, 416) and Duplex stainless steels (329, 2205) tend to become brittle as the temperature is reduced and fracture (sometimes with catastrophic results) can occur without any warning by stretching, bulging as in some plastic failures. Therefore alloys for low-temperature service must retain suitable properties such as yield and tensile strength and of course ductility.
http://www.penflex.com/engineer-bulletins-090217.php
that all took about ten minutes to find.
Looks like someone didn't do their homework.
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ms55401
Trad climber
minneapolis, mn
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just because the #3 Camalot performed well BITD doesn't mean your crampon (or bouldering beanie) won't fail in 2012
it's with great sadness that I admit that I had to retire my BD beanie. The corporate culture didn't back the gear, didn't back the lifestyle, didn't back THE LIFE
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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My guess, and its a WAG at best, is they found an inexpensive source of some standard duplex stainless available in sheet stock.
And, probably protective of the source? Might account for some of the silence...
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oakm
Ice climber
SLC, UT
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As a matter of curiosity - is stainless steel cheaper or easier to work with than chrome moly? Just askin.
I completely depends on the grade. A lot of the 300 series is pretty comparible in price, and forms well. 17 series is really expensive, not as easy to form. I don't have a lot of personal background in 400 series so I can't really speak to that.
Well, to be fair, somebody should contact BD and ask them to respond here, and then report back of having done so. (Although I find it pretty hard to believe that they don't know about this thread yet.)
I too find it hard to believe that they are not watching this thread pretty closely. I will volunteer to give someone over there a buzz and see what their plan is.
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RDB
Social climber
wa
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To compare any stainless with chromoly for cost or use you have to know the specific steels. Cost and how they "form" will depend on that as will the durability and how the steel is best manufactured into the end product.
"Oakm" here at ST is also obviously "Oaklem" on NEI. He seems a little confused on where he lives, "I live near Albany NY and I go to the dacks almost every weekend ". Have to ask if he moved to SLC just recently as he lists SLC as his residence here on ST.
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oakm
Ice climber
SLC, UT
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To compare any stainless with chromoly for cost or use you have to know the specific steels. Cost and how they "form" will depend on that as will the durability and how the steel is best manufactured into the end product.
I agree 100%
And yes, that is me on NEice. I just moved to SLC a couple months ago. Updating my profile on NEice was pretty low on my pri list when moving across the country, hadn't even thought of it actually.
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JBC
Trad climber
Portland, OR
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Sent an e-mail with a link to this thread to the following addresses:
peter.metcalf@bdel.com
bdmo@bdel.com
warranty@bdel.com
info@liolios.com
info@blackdiamond-inc.com
The last two are from the BDE investor relations website. If nobody at Black Diamond is aware of the thread now they should be Monday morning.
JBC
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erikw
Ice climber
manitou springs,colorado
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Just checked my pons as Im getting ready for a trip to the Canadien Rockies. Sure enough theyre split! I bought them new last spring so they only have one season on them. Pretty pathetic.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Bah! That'll weld up just fine.
Remember "Our crampons rock!"
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RDB
Social climber
wa
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What's your background? Please enlighten me? I'm sick of people claiming to be experts on things with no credentials.
And I'll add credibility to that list.
We have been talking about materials not physics or mechnical or nuclear engineering for the majority of this topic. And while obviously educated most of the responses have been rather dull, dim whitted or misleading (intentional or not) from my perspective on the materials end. More so on the climbers end...which would seem to be simplier yet...that of reliable gear. This conversation just doesn't add up to me. But admittedly I am no engineer or Shurlock Holmes.
Here is a straight up question for you Oakm. Do you work for BD now or have you in the past as a employee, as contract labor or have you ever applied for a job with BD? What I want to know specifically is have you ever had any sort of professional relationship with BD. The answer can be a simple and clear cut, yes or no.
Nothing personal but as I said many of your responses as an engineer have made little or no sense to me. As a climber? No sense at all.
Oh, finally you had asked about editing my posts some time back? I do edit my posts for gramerical errors. I'm dyslexic and have a hard time writing without a spell checker. Some times even with a spell checker. So I often go back and edit for spelling. I never edit for purpose or content short of removing something I've written and find offensive in retrospect or a personal attack I have written in the heat of the moment. I'd delete the post first before I would change the meaning or original content/intent. And I assure you I haven't deleted any posts in this thread.
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Gene
climber
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Although we maintain product liability insurance in amounts that we believe are reasonable, there can be no assurance that we will be able to maintain such insurance on acceptable terms, if at all, in the future or that product liability claims will not exceed the amount of insurance coverage. Additionally, we do not maintain product recall insurance. As a result, product recalls or product liability claims could have a material adverse effect on our business, results of operations and financial condition. Page 7, BD's 2010 Annual Report
(Emphasis by me.)
g
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Spastik
Boulder climber
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I work at a climbing shop and feel obligated to tell people about these crampon failures. In most cases customers will choose a competitors product instead of BD's. All you have to do is google "Black Diamond Failure" and you come across a bunch of sh#t that would turn people away from their product.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Every company takes a crap on occasion. Even Accord's catch fire. Toyota's have also lost their minds from time to time.
The only thing that matters is how a company deals with those issues. Reaction must be swift and address a generous margin of the potential problem when it comes to life and death equipment. I too miss the days when BD engineers/testers would frequent these forums and address issues directly. It really led to a sense of well being when I had to make a choice of brands.
I just found a NIB pair of stainless BD's in the gear room. Guess what's going to be available within a couple days on Ebay?
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Bah! That'll weld up just fine.
Remember "Our crampons rock!"
LOL
EDIT:
Where is Weld-it when we need him?
Also, Re; below, glad to see that Bob Culp is finding his voice on the Taco.
Cheers Bob!
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Bob Culp
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
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"Eek! My crampon broke!"
"Stop whining. They're supposed to break."
"Really?"
"Of course. If we made them indestructible they would be too heavy to climb with."
"Yeah, but . . . "
"Furthermore, who are you to criticize us, you small person you? We're Bleak Diamond and you are evidently just a member of the lunatic fringe."
"Wait a minute . . . "
"Also if you don't shut up we'll see to it our paid athletes never speak to you again."
"They don't speak to me as it is."
"Suck it up! Grow some! Show a little faith!"
"Ok - I believe. I believe. I believe."
MORE FEELING!
"I BELIEVE, GODDAMIT - now leave me alone."
"Better."
Clearly this thread is making me crazy.
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WBraun
climber
|
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Hahaha LOL ^^^^^
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ncrockclimber
climber
The Desert Oven
|
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I just laughed out loud! Solid work, Bob!
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RDB
Social climber
wa
|
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"Also if you don't shut up we'll see to it our paid athletes never speak to you again."
"They don't speak to me as it is."
"Suck it up! Grow some! Show a little faith!"
"Ok - I believe. I believe. I believe."
MORE FEELING!
"I BELIEVE, GODDAMIT - now leave me alone."
"Better."
That is hilarious!
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Todd Eastman
climber
Bellingham, WA
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Perhaps BD could re-tool and make stainless BVDs...
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Again to be fair, today is a holiday, but if by this time tomorrow we don't at least get an acknowledgement of getting JBC's emails and a willingness to address these issues as soon as possible, then I hope that the boycott will be joined not only by some of the dismayed posters here, but by the many lurkers as well.
Only this year the Taco was home to a monumental discussion regarding issues fundamental to our community and a mountain of almost mythic proportion.
Perhaps nothing was decided, perhaps something was, but this forum is no sideshow!
Who is Bleak Diamond to look down their noses at us rather than engage in a dialogue with some highly experienced users of their products?
Yeah, it is a bit of a mosh pit, but that would be a pretty lame butt excuse on their part.
Still, I wouldn't hold my breath tomorrow expecting a liar like Metcalf to willingly go on record.
Hey JBC, how about posting what you emailed?
This is the Taco where players get cred by playing their cards face up.
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RDB
Social climber
wa
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For those that have broken crampons and believe the issue is serious this web site and number is very helpful.
We can make a differenece in the climbing community...one broken crampon at a time. Took me less than 5 minutes on the phone with a real person to give a statement and get the process rolling.
http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/prerel/prhtml10/10106.html
CPSC Recall Hotline: (800) 638-2772
If BD doesn't want to respond in public let them answer to the Fed's mandated inquiry.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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As corporate officers go, it looks like Metcalf might still be a human. According to SEC filings he owns about a million in stock and gets paid less than 200k...
I'd expect somebody like that to respond. That's not Golden-Sacks money after all...
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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What he earns is beside the point.
The issue is corporate accountability.
Dane's move is brilliant. I hope others follow suit.
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ncrockclimber
climber
The Desert Oven
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Good point, Ron. Agree 100%.
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JBC
Trad climber
Portland, OR
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Got a reply from Peter Metcalf last night thanking for my e-mail and letting me know that he has read the thread. He has promised a response via the BD website in the near future.
That is what I have for now.
JBC
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Stewart Johnson
climber
lake forest
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climbing with a broken crampon is like climbing with a broken ankle.
you could die.
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kunlun_shan
Mountain climber
SF, CA
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I too got a reply from my email to Black Diamond, saying there will be an official response on BD's website later this week. The reply also stated "the failure rates have decreased since (we) switched to Stainless".
It'll be interesting to read what they have to say.
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labrat
Trad climber
Nevada City, CA
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coz,
I would really like to read a well written and full account that includes a timeline of what went down and caused the rift you have with Black Diamond / Peter M.. All I read from your posts is anger. No first hand accounts or testing or statistics. I really need something to change my way of thinking and I have not seen it. Maybe it's the engineer in me (no, I don't work for or in any way affiliated with Black Diamond (we have been down this road before)). Please provide information. I have great respect for you as a climber and your accomplishments but it's hard to maintain with your continued attacks.
Thank you in advance.
Erik
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Apr 10, 2012 - 07:02am PT
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Erik,
this might not be the place for that, as with my own particular beef.
But if Metcalf would care to go on record about his double dealings with me here then I might just have something for y'all to hear.
Bottom line; it has been a long time since Yvon was at the helm.
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RDB
Social climber
wa
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Apr 10, 2012 - 10:58am PT
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Something to think about.
BD's supporters (and BD employees) have made personal attacks on the credibility of the BD detractors in public forums.
The BD detractors in turn (and it seems may be even more often here on the Taco) more often than not focus on individiuals at BD to flame in the process.
While I don't think I was treated fairly by BD staff I can imagine the reasons they chose to act the way they did. I may not agree and think their acts dishonorable and less than honest but understand the rational.
Just my take on it but the continued personal attacks are not going to make a difference. We either have a legitimate issue with the quality of BD gear or we don't. The sand box pissing (and we all have plenty of reasons for that) while entertaining, isn't the issue.
Bad harness designs or broken crampons may or may not be a real issue. But calling out BD employees by name in public seems more than a little punk to me.
Making this discussion personal simply detracts from the real issues. I have no problem if you think it is a personal issue but making it one in public is a guaranteed way to spin your wheels.
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SGropp
Mountain climber
Eastsound, Wa
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Apr 10, 2012 - 11:04am PT
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Here's a link to another thread on the subject over at Cascade Climbers that's a bit less personal.
p://rafalandronowski.wordpress.com/2011/02/15/broke-my-crampons/
I'm really curious what BD has to say about all this
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Apr 10, 2012 - 11:20am PT
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Dane,
you are right and I'll dial it back some.
But I'm not talking about an employee. I am talking about the CEO and his lack of accountability. The fish rots from the head down, and the corporate culture merely reflects this.
I used to be a substantial customer, but I haven't bought a piece of BD gear in close to 10 years and have still managed to bag some cool new routes.
Maybe the term "by fair means" should be expanded to only using gear made by companies accountable to their customers.
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RDB
Social climber
wa
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Apr 10, 2012 - 11:44am PT
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Ron, thanks. But the comment was not just directed at you. More a observation than accusing anyone. I've done my share as well. And I agree something wrong there in the corporate culture and the CEO IS responsible for that.
But no shortage of solid A type personalities in this discussion. (personally present or not)
I noted a long time ago that the fastest way for me to lose in court or on the street was to let the other side get to me personally.
Everyone get's their back bowed in this discusion and no one will win. BD takes a hit and we lose a major source of generally good gear.
We can all imagine what a Internet conversation like this does to the revenue at BD. But you can bet someone noticed all this long before the emails went to Metcalf and BD employees.
If I were looking from the outside in I'd say, "a few broken crampons, what's the beef?" And some yokels really pissed at Metcalf from the old days for various personal reasons. The dude might be a dick or just another A personality with an opinion of his own. (hypothetically of course :)
"Move along nothing of interest here."
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Apr 10, 2012 - 11:47am PT
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Here is a straight up question for you Oakm. Do you work for BD now or have you in the past as a employee, as contract labor or have you ever applied for a job with BD? What I want to know specifically is have you ever had any sort of professional relationship with BD. The answer can be a simple and clear cut, yes or no.
[crickets]
I find it interesting that oakm came out of the gates with a bang (16 posts on Friday alone), then apparently the cat got his tongue a couple days ago when asked the above question. I simply assumed he was connected to Black Diamond but didn't think much of it. But since he challenged RDB's "credentials", the least he can do is answer with a simple yes or no.
I'm curious about BDE's policy on employees commenting in online forums (on or off the record) if any.
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crackers
climber
istanbul/new york city
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Apr 10, 2012 - 01:09pm PT
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Hold on a sec Werner, you do realize that the photos that you posted were from a set of used prototypes that Rafael bought at the MEC swap meet, right? Come on...I make gear and prototypes are what I make to get broken.
Looking over at Gravsports this morning, it looks like there are a couple of strange 'poons wandering around again, but it sounded to me like the issue was stress flexing from using the wrong bar with soft boots.
Since the thread came up, and I read the last page of posts, I'll also point out that I know that Bill Belcourt and a few other BD employees post on online forums like gravsports or cascadeclimbers from time to time. I've got no clue what their corporate policy is or anything, but I do see them posting from time to time.
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labrat
Trad climber
Nevada City, CA
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Apr 10, 2012 - 01:16pm PT
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Coz,
Your response is worse than the above mentioned 'crickets'........ Nothing.
Are there two cozs on this forum? One that starts a 7 day countdown to the bomb and the other that makes a lot of money for them. Please make up your mind and please present an account of the problems that you keep alluding to regarding harnesses and / or integrity of the management of BD. If you don't clearly state the problems I cannot see how any response by BD will be adequate.
Erik
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RDB
Social climber
wa
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Apr 10, 2012 - 02:15pm PT
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the photos that you posted were from a set of used prototypes that Rafael bought at the MEC swap meet
Not entirely correct there Crackers. They were "sales samples" (Belcourt's term and how the crampons and boxs are labeled) not prototypes. Lots of them in the field. More a convient excuse than a reason for failing imo.
The real issue is that there are several dozen more at least (as GS posts and CT data has pointed out) that have broken in the same spot that clearly are not sales samples but came through the normal retail outlets.
I for one was not thrilled to be climbing on "sales samples" with no indication from BD that they were failing on a regular basis. Even the commercial product bought at retail quickly became suspect if you were paying attention.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Apr 10, 2012 - 03:00pm PT
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At this point with no response from BD or even a specific reference from a representative as to where a response can be found the company shows itself to be ruefully negligent.
Sad, but hardly a surprise to me at this point.
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SilverSnurfer
Mountain climber
SLC, UT.
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Apr 10, 2012 - 04:53pm PT
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"The real issue is that there are several dozen more at least (as GS posts and CT data has pointed out) that have broken in the same spot that clearly are not sales samples but came through the normal retail outlets."
I've tried to follow this when I have time because I own a pair, but I must be missing something because now the count is up to 36+ SS Sabretooth crampons broken in this fashion?
That's a hell of a lot of broken crampons if correct. I read through the ColdThistle, CascadeC.,and Gravsports threads, but the number of broken units seems to keep jumping up from a couple to "dozens" and now to "several dozen" without corresponding evidence. I'm concerned enough about this issue to suspend using my own pair, but numbers need to be represented honestly to support the case.
Allen
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RDB
Social climber
wa
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Apr 10, 2012 - 05:09pm PT
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I stopped trying to keep count but from just a little looking around there are two more recent pairs that weren't on my original list of less than 2 dozen.
I'm not likely to bother with adding them all up. But maybe I should again.
Either way I have zero faith what we can document in public is even remotely what the actual return numbers at BD are.
Last year in Feb. I was told (by a BD employee who was suppose to actually know) there were less than a dozen one day, less than 2 dozen another and at least one rep said "less than a couple dozen". That was last year mind you in 2011. Not now in 2012.
It isn't like we need to make the issue any worse than it is by padding the numbers. And not like we'll ever know what the real numbers are.
My suggestion? Check your crampons in daily use.
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Apr 10, 2012 - 05:14pm PT
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"Our crampons rock!" -Peter Metcalf, when questioned on the issue by a shareholder.
Evidentially, all is well. Don't believe everything you read on the internets...
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YoungGun
climber
North
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Apr 10, 2012 - 05:21pm PT
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Have there been any reported failings of non-Sabretooth SS crampons? Cyborgs, etc.?
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crackers
climber
istanbul/new york city
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Apr 10, 2012 - 05:37pm PT
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Not entirely correct there Crackers. They were "sales samples" (Belcourt's term and how the crampons and boxs are labeled) not prototypes.
Oh? Sorry, I missed that. Could you provide a link for me? Thanks. In the gravsports and cc forums, Rafael stated the crampons were prototypes. I did not see any mention of any condition stuff from Belcourt.
The real issue is that there are several dozen more at least (as GS posts and CT data has pointed out) that have broken in the same spot that clearly are not sales samples but came through the normal retail outlets.
Huh. I had free time for the interweb this morning, and reread the original CC and gravsports threads. I got the following: Rafael, maybe AThomas or his brother BThomas (I was a bit confused by the age of their crampons and the timing), iwelsted's broken 2 pairs, and some dude named Barry Blanchard who wrote 'I broke a dozen pairs of crampons on lead'. Subsequently, a guy named Forzad and another named Lindenbach have noticed something funny in their crampons. That ain't dozens. I don't doubt that people have broken stuff, I just know what i read on the forumz.
I know that I'm in the minority, but I guess that I break stuff. I find it pretty normal. I break cams, I break nuts, I have broken crampons and I have broken ice tools and cars and my heart and dreams and god knows what else. If I ever had a 'prototype' or similar, I'd probably break that too.
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Apr 10, 2012 - 05:38pm PT
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The real issue is that there are several dozen more at least (as GS posts and CT data has pointed out) that have broken in the same spot that clearly are not sales samples but came through the normal retail outlets.
I for one was not thrilled to be climbing on "sales samples" with no indication from BD that they were failing on a regular basis. Even the commercial product bought at retail quickly became suspect if you were paying attention.
What the hell? So if they are 'sales samples' it is ok for them to fail? So all those BD cams that are on sale and advertised as cosmetic seconds on are made to fail? When it comes to climbing gear, sh#t has to work. Or be recalled if it doesn't...
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Apr 10, 2012 - 05:39pm PT
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I think their entire current line is stainless at least for the main frames. Cyborg, Stinger, Sabretooth, etc.
I have a gob of BD crampons (gob being somewhere around 6 pairs), non stainless. First gen Sabretooths that show a bunch of wear, but, haven't seem to need replacing (really like them, in fact, especially for cobbles ie Maple Canyon). Alas, my current pair are Bionics...(gettin' kinda nubby). So, sort of have a dog in this hunt as I'm in the market for a new pair (for next season by now).
I'd be curious to know if the dates on the busted models are in the 2010 only range, or, are failures being seen in the 2011 and 2012 date range as well.
Dane, any thoughts? Honestly, this seemed so "last year", last year...and I'm wondering if their "in line" type tweaks shored up the problem or if its still a dealio.
I do think its a bit of a bummer that all the photo's of the wildly blown up pair of Sabretooths are of a "sample" that someone offloaded at MEC and a guy bought as used. Almost a bit unfair. I mean, really, if I got gear for free, had an issue with it, you can bet I wouldn't be pissin' in my cereal bowl and broadcasting. And folks that get said gear shouldn't be selling or giving it to anyone else (maybe they'll rethink who they dole stuff out to).
Such a bully pulpet here sometimes...I can't hardly blame BD for not stickin' their heads in the meat grinder. Rough crowd.
Anybody done a date versus flaw comparison?
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Russ Walling
Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
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Apr 10, 2012 - 05:53pm PT
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The eternal question once again rears its head..... Coz asking, "Who are you?"
LO-FUKKIN-L!!!! This sh#t is better than TV!
Metcalf Clock
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RDB
Social climber
wa
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Apr 10, 2012 - 06:20pm PT
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FWIW....and you can take it for that...
From what I have seen and what's been reported no issues worth mentioning with any of the stainless crampons that have changable front points. Cyborgs and Stingers seem to have a clean bill of health outside the normal failures. What ever normal failure is. No one questioning that happens with ice gear. I just don't believe the discussion here is about "normal" breakage.
Brian, I had thought (hoped the issue long dead) the problem fixed last year. But with no info on what production dates or "series" of horizontals were a problem...impossible for me to answer. I was really surprised when 3 or 4 pair "popped" up again in during spring of 2012.
I do know both 1st and 2nd* (added material*) gen sabertooths have failed in the same manner.
Which is why I wrote the "dead horse" comment which started this thread.
Every single pair of broken crampons I know of have gone straight back to BD and were replaced....even the 2nd hand ones. And the ones labeled by BD as broken "by owner neglect". I even tried to buy most of them at full retail to no avail just for my own education and to check the date stamps on them.
Unfair? Might well be. But I know I was not being told the whole truth when I dared to question what was going on and still had "sales samples" I was climbing on.
Frankly that scared me. Which is why I continued to bring the issue to public light. Been a lot easier and simplier if BD had come clean in public last Feb. For what ever reason (good or bad) they have remained silent. And crampons keep turning up broken.
My suggestion?..if you own them, check them, and then decide for yourself how you will use them.
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labrat
Trad climber
Nevada City, CA
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Apr 10, 2012 - 07:05pm PT
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I'm nobody coz. Middle aged piss poor climber that developed a passion for it after a natural progression from backpacking in the outdoors (Should I really be taking this shortcut on this glacier in S. America without any skills?). Took both a rock climbing and mountaineering course in New Zealand. I've barely lead up to 5.8 trad and sport into the mid to high 10's only if it's as soft as the routes in Maple. Wish I had started sooner in life but detours in to horse training, the Marines, and fly fishing stalled the process. Really enjoyed myself getting back to Red Rock and Owens River Gorge last week and looking forward to the Leap opening up early this year. Hope also to get back to City of Rocks (ID) and see if Smith is as fun as I've heard. Definitely will get back to Yosemite and the Facelift this year. I started reading this forum after watching a rope failure (manufactured by Beal, sold by Black Diamond) in a local gym many years ago.
Your skill, experience, and knowledge is and will always be vastly superior to mine. I have just noticed that you rarely let a chance to bash BD pass you buy and this pattern has existed for years. The list of BD equipment that you have bashed (and called unsafe and said it needed to be recalled) includes harnesses, slings, ascenders, and now crampons. All with very little evidence as I see it. I understand that you see it entirely differently and I want to see the evidence......
I also expect you to continue to call me names, call me out, and threaten to beat the sh#t out me as you have done to others multiple times on this forum. Everyone here has seen the same pattern. If they want to read about it all the have to do is log in and review your posts or mine.
I, like most everyone here, am waiting for a response by BD and hope it will be in an official form in the way of a technical memo. I don't expect a recall. I would expect it to reiterate things like checking your gear before and after use, annual inspection by the owner, and maybe an expected lifetime of the crampons. We have all seen these things on the tags when we buy gear. How many of us actually do it? I know I don't do it enough and I was shocked to discover how gummed up my cams were last year when I bought some new ones. Yes, they were BD C4's...........
Have to get some work done now.
Erik
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Apr 10, 2012 - 09:36pm PT
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Coz has a short fuse but also a good heart and a lot of savvy.
The question remains; do these pons actually rock?
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SeanH
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Apr 10, 2012 - 10:00pm PT
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Why not just buy Grivel and call it a day?
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Apr 10, 2012 - 10:33pm PT
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coz said
Labrat,
Why are you attacking me? I have no beef with BD or Metcalf. Why do you insist I do.
Read the thread title, I want an answer like everyone else.
I've made BD lots of money, but have problems with a few of their products.
I know for a fact a few flaws, I don't expose them because I want to give BD a chance to fix them.
frankly, as a disinterested observer, you are schizophrenic.
read what you wrote on this thread, every post. you want to toss Metcalf and BD under the bus but there is no proof.
you post extremely negatively, then wonder why people question you?
frankly, my initial (without positive proof) reply is that your lycra was too tite BITD.
but there s no proof in that either......
simple advice from me? if of course you give a sh#t? stop being a self centered as#@&%e.
and by the way, the last person i have met who should dis on ethics is RO. tell us about your wish for carving handholds in virgin sandstone????
this thread is sickening.......
BTW, i have 2 engineering degrees, and know that BD probably did f*#k up, and i definitely know they screwed the pooch on the response. but some of you are real f*#k ups.....
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Apr 10, 2012 - 10:45pm PT
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Well Erik, I wish that I'd been paying better attention in class when Coz ripped their ascenders:-) I just bumped that thread with my sad face due to the late (and now 1st hand and personal) learning experience. Just bump me awake next time I fall asleep will ya? LOL!
For myself, I had a short dealing with Bill Belencourt on Black Diamond C3 cams and found it very positive and informative. Our conversation wound up discussing the Camalots vs the newly released DMM Dragons which they did a shitty job of trying to imitate the BDs. Actually, Belencourt didn't say anything like that. He said that the dual stem copy validated the BD design, and he was discussing the slings. After we had discussed the engineering choices each company had made (for those unfamiliar, BD does a fat nylon sling on a thumbloop and DMM does a skinny and extendable 8mm Dyneema sling. He said (paraphrasing again here,don't chop my head off) : "How many climbers do you know have replaced their slings?". "Uhhh", thinking of my original ridged friends with the webbing I put on when they were new,or the Chouinard Chocks from the 70's with the same sling material I'd tied on them then...."not many"...
"Right", and we know that too, which is why we considered that and then put on stuff that weighs insignificantly more but will last many many more years"....
Good choice I'm thinking.....and on and on it went. All good stuff and I came away with a better feeling of the design choices they made, and a better love of Black Diamond cams.
On this discourse on this thread, I think I agree with both Dane and Graham. Keep the personal attacks out of it and lets focus on as factual of a discussion as we can get. I remember hearing some guys breaking a pick on a earlier Simond ice tool in France (I think it was a Chacal model) and actually taking it to the MAN himself at the factory, a Mr Simond, who got angry and his gear being dissed and then refused to replace it. Saying (in French) they abused it. It broke all by itself just climbing, and it was heat treated chromolly. LOL. Oh, they still climbed on Simond tools, it was otherwise great stuff.
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Apr 10, 2012 - 11:19pm PT
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Labrat... abandon thread.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Apr 11, 2012 - 01:22pm PT
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Chill Werner, he might have good vision but the guy misspelled "tight". lol
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aforslund
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Apr 11, 2012 - 05:01pm PT
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I look forward to reading what BD has to say.
My gut tells me it WON'T be "Here at BD we have looked at our choice of stainless steel in crampons as being a bad one."
Nope.
It will be a variation of "Our crampons rock!" or "We sell thousands of crampons and a few catastrophically breaking isn't a big deal. Gear breaks."
But, I do look forward to reading whatever it is they say. My fingers are crossed that it will be something that puts climbers safety first and the quarterly bottom line second.
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James Wilcox
Boulder climber
The Coast
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Apr 11, 2012 - 07:12pm PT
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Seanh's proposal is the quickest and most effective way to
get a company to change it's product.
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RDB
Social climber
wa
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Apr 11, 2012 - 08:21pm PT
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This month marks the first part of a series the QA engineers will be doing on realistic gear lifespan, essentially exploring the concept that gear, no matter how well designed and constructed, doesn't last forever. First off, they'll focus on ice tool picks. Stay tuned for the next installment on crampons in a couple of weeks.
I had mentioned this BD post elsewhere. If you can't make good enough gear simply start a propaganda campaign saying it is "OK". The best lies are half truth. Say it enough and people start believing it. Sheeple make great customers.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Apr 11, 2012 - 08:24pm PT
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Is Yvon's next book to be titled Let My People Spin?
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Gene
climber
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Apr 11, 2012 - 08:26pm PT
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Is Yvon's next book to be titled Let My People Spin?
Let My People Turf
g
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aforslund
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Apr 11, 2012 - 08:47pm PT
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Slightly OT:
The pick test they show only pulls/flexes the tip along the vertical axis. They don't torque/twist the pick as it would be when placed in a thin crack.
Wonder why?
Ohh...Because they break easier than others.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Apr 11, 2012 - 09:20pm PT
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It's also not 5 degrees in the test booth.
Some metals (esp stainless btw) exhibit vastly different characteristics at different temperatures.
FWIW I've always marveled at just how god damn tough most chromoly crampons are. The abuse I've given over 3 pairs of old Saberteeth crampons certainly should have broken or bent at least one. At over 260 pounds (with pack) I've broken every kind of gear in alpine environments you can imagine but never a crampon.
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miwuksurfer
Social climber
Mi-Wuk
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Apr 11, 2012 - 09:42pm PT
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Well then, you better "upgrade to stainless" and see what you've been missing.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Apr 12, 2012 - 09:09am PT
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Yeah. Get crackin'.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Apr 12, 2012 - 10:40am PT
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Another thing for BD or any other idiot corporate drone that hasn't been there can chew on.
Anyone who has worn crampons in alpine steepness knows that a catastrophic crampon frame failure at the wrong time will probably result in death. How many times have we stared down a 40-50 degree bullet-hard slope knowing that self arrest is but a fantasy? Can't hammer pickets in and screws would just pull out anyway so we run it out. For miles.
In steep alpine climbing, crampons are so much more critical than any other piece of gear I can think of. Sacrificing ANY reliability for weight in this application is simply not acceptable. Saberteeth fall into this catagory of alpine crampon. If BD wishes to categorize them as "ultralight" and lump them in with the rest of the aluminum frame sh#t out there then so be it. But that must be clearly stated.
On vertical water ice you can argue about multiple points of contact and protecting more often. Even this argument is fantasy for anyone who has ever climb hard ice. Runouts are required as there simply isn't protection much of the time.
Nothin' new to the folks who actually climb but maybe the Board of Directors at BD needs a little education..
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ncrockclimber
climber
The Desert Oven
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Apr 12, 2012 - 12:40pm PT
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Interesting that Oakm never came back and answered RDBs question.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Apr 12, 2012 - 12:44pm PT
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Fear, I do not think that is fair.
They have some climbers.
Thing is; if you drink enough of the Kool-aid and you are not the one with the failure,...
(repeat after me, "our crampons rock!")
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RDB
Social climber
wa
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Apr 12, 2012 - 12:47pm PT
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In BD's case no shortage of real, no sh#t, alpine and ice climbers on staff including Metcalf and Belcourt. What ever else you might want to say...attacking their climbing creditials isn't admirable or justified
And they aren't even the tiny tip of the iceberg when it comes to the obvious climbing talent employeed by BD. They know what and how crampons are used.
Metcalf is of course also on the BOD. When the discussion turns to horizontal stainless crampon reliability, just has to beg the question. Why are they still breaking?
Oakm?
Same story here:
http://www.iceclimbingforums.com/showthread.php?8764-Petzl-Lynx&p=64498#post64498
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RDB
Social climber
wa
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Apr 12, 2012 - 01:24pm PT
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"I bet the BD staff does not use the Sabertooths, aren't horizontals out of fashion?"
I suspect you are right for the most part. But below is Belcourt soloing WI3 in a pair of the then new Sabers a few winters back. Out of fashion or not I'd have bet it been annoying if his Sabers had fallen off, as I sure wasn't going to catch them :)
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Apr 12, 2012 - 02:06pm PT
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That's WI3? ;-)
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RDB
Social climber
wa
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Apr 12, 2012 - 02:34pm PT
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Reilly it is Utah after all...so call it a "soft" 3, I certainly didn't want to fall off ;-)
This aint. Another common BD employee crampon testing ground including being soloed.
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Apr 12, 2012 - 03:25pm PT
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Nice shot! AoF.
Rumor has it that the BD warrenty guy solo'd that thing about 5 days in a row or some such.
Bill changes his jacket when he solos laps on the local 5p WI 3 here so he doesn't bum out the folks he's lapping.
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ncrockclimber
climber
The Desert Oven
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Apr 13, 2012 - 11:14am PT
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Bump. Still waiting for BD and Oakm to respond.
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Gene
climber
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Apr 13, 2012 - 06:23pm PT
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It’s worth mentioning that as Kolin and his team were developing this post over the past few weeks (which is the culmination of years of testing and documentation), we became aware of some discussions in a couple online climbing forums and blogs filled with rumors and misinformation about BD crampons and the people who work here. We watched the discussion—dominated by a handful of posters with well-documented personal vendettas against us—devolve into a series of irrational personal attacks, lies paraded as insider knowledge, and misleading and bullying of fellow forum members who voiced support for BD or asked for facts to support the claims. As the vitriol became more and more erratic, personal and baseless, we realized it would be best not to engage in such dialogue that is unconstrained by facts or respect.
Paragraph 3 from above link.
Oh, my!!!!!!!!!
g
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Apr 13, 2012 - 06:39pm PT
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more weak sauce
Translation;
We at Bleak Diamond would prefer not to be asked difficult questions regarding our candor, reliability or ethical responsibility, but would rather post carefully spun press releases that color our detractors poorly without actually responding to the issues they raise.
(Yvon, where are you when we need you? Oh well, I hope the steelhead are biting.)
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atchafalaya
Boulder climber
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Apr 13, 2012 - 06:53pm PT
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As my 6 year old likes to say, "Somebody got burned".
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Russ Walling
Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
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Apr 13, 2012 - 07:09pm PT
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"Their crampons rock!!"
Next issue please.....
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Apr 13, 2012 - 07:10pm PT
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I get the picket sign that says, "Great Pacific Liar Works".
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James Wilcox
Boulder climber
The Coast
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Apr 13, 2012 - 07:19pm PT
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Picket lines are pathetic and sad. I'd rather go get ice cream.
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aforslund
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Apr 13, 2012 - 07:23pm PT
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Take note of the Sabretooth. When you get rid of the one flyer in both the CroMo and Stainless the CroMo is better.
Their own testing shows that.
Hmmm.
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aforslund
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Apr 13, 2012 - 07:25pm PT
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It is the Sabretooth that we all have been asking about. It is the crampon with the noted failures. Their own numbers illustrate what the internets have been saying for over a year.
"Our crampons rock!"
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labrat
Trad climber
Nevada City, CA
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Apr 13, 2012 - 07:31pm PT
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coz,
It took two minutes for you to read and understand the announcement from BD and come back with a response? You sir are fast!
Did you happen to read this part?
"We watched the discussion—dominated by a handful of posters with well-documented personal vendettas against us—devolve into a series of irrational personal attacks, lies paraded as insider knowledge, and misleading and bullying of fellow forum members who voiced support for BD or asked for facts to support the claims."
Sound familiar?
Erik "the BD Tool"
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 13, 2012 - 08:34pm PT
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I'm sorry to say if one looks at the history of this subject matter one will see that it's been going on for quite some time before this thread appeared on this forum.
Individuals have been trying to get knowledge about these failures from the manufacture and have been stymied repeatedly both here and before this discussion on this forum.
You even had individuals in this thread in a round about way telling us to STFU and not discuss it here in an open forum.
That was actually the second post in this thread which is a mind blower to me.
When gear has a catastrophic failure like this we are supposed to just STFU and contact the manufacturer only?
That avenue was already a failure, thus this thread came about.
Coz challenged the manufacture to come out about it.
Look at the timing of the manufactures response and the date this thread started.
The timing mysteriously corresponds exactly in relation to this thread?
It took someone like coz to take a stand and force the issue.
So don't take it out on him please .........
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Apr 13, 2012 - 08:41pm PT
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If the cyclic tests weren't done in a cold chamber they are meaningless.
Nobody uses pons in a 72 degree lab.
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Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
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Apr 13, 2012 - 08:48pm PT
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This is bs. I am not an ice climber and know nothing about the subject. I know this though, bd's response gives me very little confidence in any of their other products.
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dirhk
Trad climber
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Apr 13, 2012 - 08:50pm PT
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Those results would have more relevance if done at lower temperatures.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Apr 13, 2012 - 08:56pm PT
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Werner, there's nothing in the first post to indicate whether the poster had contacted Black Diamond, or not. I was simply suggesting (in the second post) that it would be a good idea to do so. Nothing more. Please don't read anything else into it.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Apr 13, 2012 - 09:21pm PT
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If the cyclic tests weren't done in a cold chamber they are meaningless.
+10
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Apr 13, 2012 - 10:36pm PT
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I appreciate their response. At least it shows there are a few real engineer types left at BD. I, for one at least, partially applaud their response.
Anyone know what the actual stainless alloy is that they use? I know some materials guys who would love to run a few tests of their own.
I think what we've run into is a classic case of "innovation" sometimes biting you in the ass. Anytime a radical change is introduced into any product you are taking a huge risk no matter how exhaustive your testing might be. There is no subsitute for long-term trials by the true guinea pigs.
That's us in case you're not keeping up.
Ask any pharmaceutical company about it.
The difference here is nobody has died yet. BD can still save their image by laying their cards on the table and working with us. They gave us a glimpse but much more is needed.
Now, what I hope is happening at BD is a tripling of testing efforts designed to break their stainless models in new creative ways. The temperature thing has already been brought up. What about the effect of the inevitable nicks and deep gouges acting as stress risers? These could be very different in stainless.
How do the new materials ultimately fail? I've NEVER seen chromoly crampon frames fail in the field. Points, bales, straps, sure.
Where does the stainless sheet come from? One source? Many? What kind of certification does the raw material have, if any.
It takes a lot to earn trust and if you hide anything that trust is lost forever.
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ncrockclimber
climber
The Desert Oven
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Apr 14, 2012 - 01:00am PT
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Interesting response from BD. I read the entire thing twice. They give a lot of information about their crampons. They also provide some insight into the company culture; it seems that BD does not deal well with having their product quality questioned and will negatively characterize individuals that are not actively advocating their party line.
However, for me the most important section of the post is as follows:
"All inclusive, our historical return rate for crampons is less than 0.1%. Specifically, crampon warranty return rates were around 0.06% for the eight-year period prior to using stainless steel, and around 0.02% since switching to stainless in 2009— as you can see in the chart below. We have rarely ever seen vertical front point crampons returned (remember that 2x6 analogy), so if we divide the warranty return rate down by model, it creeps close to 0.2% for technical crampons with horizontal front points (not shown specifically in this graph)."
It is interesting that they do not state specifically if the SS Sabre has had more or less returns than the previous generation of non-SS horizontal front point crampons. Also, they do not disclose if the SS Sabre catastrophically fails more or less often than the previous generation of non-SS horizontal front point crampons. They provide overall product line numbers, but no current vs historical data about the specific model in question. In the end, that is the one piece of data that would resolve this entire issue, yet it is missing. Why?
I get the part about "crampons break." I get the part about softer boots contributing to the problem. I get the tradeoff between weight and durability. Although .2% is a small number (between 4 and 5 Sigma), I still think that it is a big deal. Especially if I am one of the .2%.
As Werner and RDB stated, this has been going on for a while. BD has had time to address this proactively for over a year. They did not. They said a lot of different things to a lot of people. Consistently, they deny that there is a problem. Even today, they are still putting out a lot of marketing spin, yet they do not answer the one question being asked; do the Sabres fail more often than the previous generation of non-SS horizontal front point crampons?
The things I look for in a gear manufacturer are quality, durability, customer service, transparency and a commitment to stand behind their product after the sale. After reading BDs post, I understand that they are focused on innovation, lightweight gear and brand image. I am not so sure about how actual product quality is valued in comparison to brand image. They talk a good game, but some details are missing. I am now questioning if BDs quality is as good as their marketing would have me believe.
I currently own a lot of BD stuff, well over a thousand dollars worth. My first rack was almost entirely BD. The last quick draws I purchased were BD. I love my C4s. I am not a BD hater. However, seeing how this issue was handled, I am not sure if BD has what I am looking for any more.
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mike m
Trad climber
black hills
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Apr 14, 2012 - 11:09am PT
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I also love BD products. My rock rack has been built around them for the twenty years I have been climbing. Have used DB ice tools only but always had Grivel Crampons. I bought the cyborgs when they came out several years ago and they felt flimsy compared to the grivels but continue to use them as they are high dollar items and I can't afford to buy a new pair every year. But when my main climbing partner bought a new pair of staineless cyborgs and had the bar linking the two pieces break and they would not warranty them it makes me question the direction the company is going. With climbning gear I think your reputation is almost everything.
Attacking the messanger is going to do nothing to make this issue go away. I think it is the metal not the type of crampons. In my experience crampons don't break and that is how they should be made.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Apr 14, 2012 - 12:30pm PT
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We watched the discussion—dominated by a handful of posters with well-documented personal vendettas against us—devolve into a series of irrational personal attacks, lies paraded as insider knowledge, and misleading and bullying of fellow forum members who voiced support for BD or asked for facts to support the claims. As the vitriol became more and more erratic, personal and baseless, we realized it would be best not to engage in such dialogue that is unconstrained by facts or respect.
This is really quite masterful on second look.
BD lets a situation fester for long enough that it gets ugly and then says that things have gotten too ugly to engage in dialogue.
Who's fault is THAT!
Peter would paint me as a bully but I'm one of the posters asking for facts.
And yes, I have a bone to pick with him not related to stainless steel snaggletooths.
But both issues boil down to exactly the same thing; candor and accountability.
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GrahamJ
climber
In the rain
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Apr 14, 2012 - 12:50pm PT
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interesting that the spread of failures on the cyclic fatigue testing is much greater on the stainless sabertooths than any other crampon tested, and that the stainless sabertooths at the lowest end of the spread are failing at a much lower number of cycles than any other crampon in the test.
I'm glad BD posted this (though they could have left out the jab about personal vendettas and whatnot), but it still doesn't answer the question of whether they are getting MORE real-world failures of SS sabertooths than they did with ChroMo sabertooths. I would like to see a direct comparison of actual breakage (why did they give us data that included random, unrelated events like car fires and ABS plates melting? - maybe having those random points in there helps to obscure a high failure rate?)of SS vs ChroMo sabertooths with actual numbers.
while I agree that wading into an online discussion is not the right thing for BD to do, a simple statement, here on Supertopo or other forums where this is being discussed to say: "this is so and so at BD. We have heard that there are some issues with product X and we are looking into it. We do care, we want people climbing on our gear to trust it etc..." Doesn't need to be a back and forth on a forum like this, but a simple statement to say they were looking into it would have nipped A LOT of the negative comments towards BD in general in the bud. As a company that values brand image it blows my mind that they would not have done that.
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 14, 2012 - 12:57pm PT
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Piton Ron
For BD not to engage in this forum was the right thing to do.
They have their own proper place within their infrastructure (web site).
Engaging here serves them no real purpose except to exacerbate endless debate.
I doubt they have time for that.
Anyways .....
The stress tests shown were under ideal temperature conditions and not real world. ie freezing temperatures.
The stress tests should have been attempted in a cold realistic freezing environment?
You think?
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Apr 14, 2012 - 02:10pm PT
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I've been staying out of this discussion for a variety of reasons and Werner has just summed up my opinions succinctly
So now for some facts, starting with the Very End of the BD report.
The Bottom Line
• Vertically oriented front points are best for climbing water ice and/or heavy climbers, and tend to do better in cyclic fatigue.
• Horizontal front points are best used for the alpine.
• Flexible center bars can increase the lifespan of your crampons, but at a cost of performance.
• Boots aren’t as rigid as they used to be and break down/wear in quicker.
• Use flexible center bars with truly non-rigid boots.
• Regardless of the version or model of BD crampon you own, when matched with appropriate boots and center bars, they can be trusted perform to the highest of standards.
• Just like with ice picks, no one has a magic material or process that produces an unbreakable crampon.
• Gear doesn’t last forever.
A lot of very pertinent suggestions and summaries here, regardless of which/whose crampons you use.
What I got out of the data in the report (I didn't read much of the verbiage) is:
Stainless fails at fewer fatique cycles and with a greater spread in the data than "plain" CrMo. As a mechanical engineer (not metallurgist) this doesn't surprise me. They don't specify which stainless or CrMo they use. They don't specify their heat treating process. I'm not sure I'd tell my competition either. So we're all second guessing on those issues.
They don't specify the fatigue cycle temperature. They SHOULD QC (not engineering) test at a cold temperature. Something around -20C to be sure there's not a problem at the temps we're likely to encounter.
I hadn't previously considered the strength/fatigue differences of vertical vs horizontal front points. I'm definitely getting vertical front points with flexible bars before next ice season.
The flexibility of modern boots certainly increases the fatigue problem. I've heard a lot of "YC wouldn't have let this happen". Remember BITD that Chouinard specifically made rigid crampons for stiff boots and specifically said the equivalent of "use these on less rigid boots at your own risk".
Check the fatigue life charts. Look at the video. That is some extreme fatigue cycle. Horizontal points fail earlier. Not at all surprising when you think about it.
The shortest vertical front point fatigue life is about 12000 cycles. So call it 20,000 feet of ice climbing. The shortest horizontal is about 8,000 cycles, approx 14,000 feet. Note that the fatigue test approximates or exceeds the strain with soft boots. Stiffer boots will last longer.
In the Stainless vs CrMo comparison, the stainless vertical front points do significantly better than the CrMo. Reverse for the horizontal front points.
Use the right crampon type for the climb and the boots. Minimize rock bashing. Keep 'em sharp so they penetrate more easily. Take your bloody crampons off when you've got a lot of rocky ground to cover. And you won't have to sharpen them as often either.
Gear doesn't last forever: We don't bitch about replacing ropes based upon usage. We should all plan on replacing our crampons regularly. It's not just about having the latest shiny new toy.
Maintenance and lifespan
Check your crampons before, during and after each use. Check that there are no cracks on the metallic parts.
A more thorough examination shall be made at least every year by a competent and trained person. The maximum lifespan of the crampon is 5 years of use. This lifespan can be reduced to one single use in case of severe load (fall). If you have any doubt about any piece of gear, retire and destroy it.
and My Not So Humble Opinions
One thing about BD taking a while to put this report together. A thorough report like this takes a significant time to write, then it has to be vetted by Marketing, and Legal (especially in this case) and then signed off by Metcalf. Sure, they're covering their collective arse. With the vitriol in this thread you can't blame them.
Oh.....and we ALL know to only use a hand file, never a power tool to sharpen them.....RIGHT????
And if your crampons break, send them immediately to the manufacturer. They may or may not replace them, but they need to get the failure data.
Fred Glover, P.E. Mechanical Engineering
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Apr 14, 2012 - 02:29pm PT
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Are we supposed to ultrasound and x-ray them after every use?
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Apr 14, 2012 - 02:30pm PT
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only if yer' blind
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Nate Ricklin
climber
San Diego
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Apr 14, 2012 - 06:54pm PT
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When I buy new crampons they won't be black diamond. Whatever.
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Ljohnson
Social climber
The land of ice, snow and rocks
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Apr 14, 2012 - 09:03pm PT
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A lot of people on this thread are asking for the same thing: Is there a serious design flaw in these crampons?
BD's response was lackluster, at best, in answering this question for us.
What really bugs me though is I have never even heard of crampons breaking in this fashion before. Tips break, toe bails etc.. but this is a whole different enchilada.
Crampons should be considered worn out after five years- are you kidding me? What about the 30 year old Footfangs I still have? My 20 year old Salwea's? I would take those over new BD crampons any day. You can see the difference in craftsmanship just by picking them up.
Have been less and less impressed with BD over the years, but this is the final straw. I will encourage others to buy other brands of climbing gear as well. There are plenty of other companies with much better track records out there.
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ms55401
Trad climber
minneapolis, mn
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Apr 14, 2012 - 10:38pm PT
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I was initially on the fence, but BD's response (or non-response) forced me off the fence.
I have two pairs of BD crampons: Sabretooth and Cyborg. Except for the front bale on the Cyborg coming out of the box backwards (WTF?), I've had no quality issues with either pair.
That said, I will be buying another pair of crampons this year for dedicated waterfall/mixed climbing (monopoint). I will not be buying BD, given their tardy and ultimately unimpressive response.
It'll either be Grivel or Petzl.
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Srbphoto
climber
Kennewick wa
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Apr 14, 2012 - 10:41pm PT
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we realized it would be best not to engage in such dialogue that is unconstrained by facts or respect.
After issuing this statement BD announced the end of all marketing, after all, they "realized it would be best not to engage in such dialogue that is unconstrained by facts or respect."
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Bob Culp
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
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Apr 15, 2012 - 10:58am PT
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I have decided I like this thread. Climbers are a opinionated lot and are not shy about expressing themselves.
A friend of mine read something I posted earlier and asked me why I am so "down" on BD. Since when does a little ribbing mean you are "down" on anyone? Geez.
I'm not much interested in the ways of companies. But think about it -
what other company for so many years has come out with so much innovative and cutting edge equipment? None that I know of.
In terms of the people - I don't really know any of them except Peter Metcalf who always treated me fairly and seems like a standup guy.
In terms of the QUESTION. I was glad to read a response from BD. I thought it was overdue, but that's their affair. I still don't know the answer though. Are a lot of Sabertooths breaking in the field? I don't care that much since I don't plan on buying them anyway. I always recommend Cyborgs and Stingers (which I am now using) and there seems to be no problem with them.
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jfs
Trad climber
Upper Leftish
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Apr 15, 2012 - 02:10pm PT
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This thread has about 10% worthwhile content.
The rest is ridiculous.
edit: which by supertopo standards is actually pretty damn good.
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Ain't no flatlander
climber
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Apr 15, 2012 - 04:12pm PT
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When CAMP was the first to offer stainless steel crampons, the folks at BD were quick to dismiss them as inferior to CroMo crampons. BD begin singing a different tune about stainless a few years later of course but all the marketing remains vague and is mostly about cosmetics. In contrast, CAMP was very clear about what steels they use and why http://www.camp-usa.com/product-highlights/forum/sandvik-nanoflex.asp.
CAMP apparently knew better than to sell a SS alpine crampon with horizontal front points, which is where all the trouble is. They now offer a 10-point SS version but it's specifically for ski mountaineering and is more like a stronger version of an aluminum crampon. Petzl and Grivel could easily have gone for SS if there were sufficient reason. But all the smart kids stuck with CroMo for alpine crampons.
The CroMo Sabretooths were fine and should have never been abandoned just to save 2 ounces per foot. BD made a bad materials choice purely for marketing--oooh, shiny--and is doing it's best to avoid admitting the mistake.
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JBC
Trad climber
Portland, OR
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Apr 16, 2012 - 12:12am PT
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Werner, there's nothing in the first post to indicate whether the poster had contacted Black Diamond, or not. I was simply suggesting (in the second post) that it would be a good idea to do so. Nothing more. Please don't read anything else into it.
FWIW I contacted BD (Peter Metcalf directly) via e-mail on 4/8.
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PeteC
climber
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Apr 16, 2012 - 12:32am PT
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I love the BD official response: "Gear Doesn't Last Forever "
Great response.
Why not title it "Everyone Dies Eventually".
Don't worry about crampon breakage. Death is inevitable anyways.
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JBC
Trad climber
Portland, OR
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Apr 16, 2012 - 12:33am PT
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As far as the post by BD goes, nice PR piece, but it does have some good information. I actually buy in to most of what it says. I agree 100% that climbing gear does not last forever, and we as climbers should be vigilent about checking it.
As for the ad hominem attack (as quoted above) BD "realized it would be best not to engage in such dialogue" one would think they would not want to engage at all. Instead they step directly in the poo by slamming some of the posters, in much the same way they claim those same folks are slamming them.
Should have just said nothing about that at all.
Furthermore, they never address the factual issues or questions raised by this thread. Perhaps it has got lost in all the "vitriol". Or perhaps the question(s) have not been stated clearly enough, but as far as i can see the lengthy BD post does not address the issue at hand here and on Dane's website in any substantial way>
So in the interest of clarity BD:
How many broken Sabertooth SS crampons are you aware of?
Is this less, or more than the Sabertooth Cromo crampons corrected for ay sales difference.
How about compared to other BD crampons?
Do you know what is causing the breakage, and if so, what is it?
What have you done to address the issue?
Should climbers be concerned about these crampons?
Why has this issue not been addressed to the climbing public previously?
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Apr 16, 2012 - 10:09am PT
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Anybody see the recall on bags of Dole salad this morning?
Their own testing found traces of salmonella so they started a recall even before any illnesses have come to light.
THAT is the way to protect the brand.
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RDB
Social climber
wa
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Apr 16, 2012 - 12:21pm PT
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I got an email from a Canadian last night who just had his bent and cracked Sabertooth crampons replaced. 10 last winter and 10 this winter that we know of. All are frame cracks, bends or breaks. How about we keep a public running total?
Rafael broken ss 2/15/11 (sales samples)
AT Thomas broken ss 2/15/11
Farzad broken ss 2/11/12
Linderbach broken ss 2/23/12
Erirw @ the Taco 4/8/12
from Cold Thistle emails
5 broken ss in Europe last winter, 3 in the UK
bent SS 2/17/12
cracked ss 2/17/12
ss front bent 2/20/12
(3) Nick from shop 2 cracked one bent 2/25/12
Canadian Sabers bent and cracked 4/15/12
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Bob Culp
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
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Apr 16, 2012 - 12:46pm PT
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Well there you have it.
Maybe BD has not seen that many and is in a state of denial, unwilling to accept "rumor" evidence. Maybe their idea of acceptable failure is higher than some of us. That gets into the area of individual judgement.
Any person capable of actually climbing knows that gear breaks. That is a no brainer and we do not need to be reminded of that fact. Putting a time limit on equipment is a pretty useless standard, except perhaps to remind people that stuff breaks which nobody needs reminding of.
I routinely retire ropes, recycle slings on a regular basis, and in general replace stuff that I feel like is nearing the end of its life expectancy.
Everyone does (or should) do that.
In my opinion, 20 broken crampons (and there are surely more not reported) is too many. It indicates an unreliable (dangerous) product. BD should take that model off the market and not reintroduce it until the problem is fixed.
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Bob Culp
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
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Apr 16, 2012 - 01:04pm PT
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Just a side note.
I was looking at my climbing school crampon pile. I have Charlet Grade 8s whose front points have been replaced many times, same with BD switchblades. I've got a number of Grivel G14s plus a few other Grivels. I have two pairs of Grivel 2F crampons that must be nearly thirty years old and are still reasonable sharp. (Wish they would bring that model back). I even have an ancient pair of Stubais that are still hanging in there.
I don't lead on any of them, just use them for practice top-roping, but the interesting thing is this. Crampons don't break a whole lot.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Apr 16, 2012 - 01:18pm PT
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Same here Bob.... A big 'ol pile of dull and ancient 'pons. They all still work.
I think we need to specify "frame breakage" when talking about this problem.
Point/bales/straps all break and we know that.
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YoungGun
climber
North
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Apr 16, 2012 - 01:23pm PT
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Their own charts show the SS Sabretooth is inferior to the original Sabretooth.
The question they fail to address is: If you have any doubts, why not just buy Grivel?
Not hating on BD. I trust Camalots with my life almost every time I go climbing. But the lack of transparency on this issue and the mix of science with marketing does not inspire confidence in SS crampons or BD's product development team.
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Bob Culp
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
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Apr 16, 2012 - 02:10pm PT
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No Stinkeye they are never going to respond on these forums. I don't even think they should you know? It's not really appropriate and I wouldn't if I were them. Actions speak louder than words anyway.
You know as well as I (or better) Fear how beginners abuse gear. They try to kick the toe points into hard ice to the point bails fly off. I even have had them shatter a couple pair of plastic boots. They try to kick the points into rock sometimes FGS! I routinely have them marching along on frozen trails in their 'pons because I'm afraid they will slip and go rolling down the hill. And it's frame breakage we are talking about here. I'm impressed though in general how much abuse any of this gear can take. Frame breakage? That's almost unheard of!
Youngun I rely on BD stuff all the time too. Cams, stoppers, biners - you name it. I just don't pay any attention to what marketing people have to say. The gear speaks for itself.
Sabertooths are talking.
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Apr 16, 2012 - 02:38pm PT
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Lawyers are never gonna let BD employees/board members individually address product defect claims in online forums.
Is that why oakm suddenly stopped posting after a flurry of posts staunchly defending BD while pointing out supposed flawed products by Petzl?
Or was it because he simply couldn't admit he was a BD employee when questioned?
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golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
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Apr 16, 2012 - 03:15pm PT
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I have no intention of getting involved in this and frankly, do not care how it turns out. However, I did want to call your attention to three points.
Point 1:Assuming that we are more interested in the Sabre's data, take a look at the first graph on the BD website of Sabre Cyle testing for CrMo versus SS.
Recognize that the sample population is very small. 4 tests for SS and 3 for CrMo. These data points should have error bars on them. I was too lazy to graph them but here is how the data should "approximately" read (note that I had to interpolate the points off of the graph).
SS Minimum Cycles to Failure:
8,750 +/- 3047
SS Max Cycles to Failure:
17500 +/- 3047
CrMo Minimum Cycles to Failure:
10938 +/- 2454
CrMo Max Cycles to Failure:
17188 +/- 2454.
The Point? From a statistical perspective, there is little to no difference in how these materials behaved in the VERY few tests that were conducted between these materials. In fact, there is a GREATER variability in the SS sample population than there is with the CrMo despite having one more data point which does not bode well for the SS Data Set.
Point #2:
SS had 4 tests, CrMo only three. Is this because of Point #1? In other words, did BD recently perform all of these tests or did they perform the Worst test on SS first and then did BD perform just enough tests to write up their paper in order to support their conclusion....The CORRECT way to perform these types of tests is to NOT have a conclusion, perform the tests, then decipher the data which would then provide the Discussion of Results and hence a data driven conclusion. This is opposed to a Corporate driven solution. If I were to devise a test plan for materials, I would ALWAYS try and use the same sample population so as not to have any preconceived ideas.
Point #3:
From the BD Website
On a ten-mile walk a crampon could experience 10,000 bending cycles.
If their cyclic tests are representative of the stresses during walking, then you can all expect to get about 12 Miles out of SS and 15 out of CrMo based upon the Average of the data sets from the graph reference in Point #1. Seems pretty weak to me. On the otherhand, I have no idea what other crampons would do in these tests.
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 16, 2012 - 03:39pm PT
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The Point? From a statistical perspective, there is little to no difference in how these materials behaved in the VERY few tests that were conducted between these materials
Doesn't anyone read?
None of their lab test was done in a cold/freezing environment.
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golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
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Apr 16, 2012 - 03:47pm PT
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Yes Werner. I did read that and that is also an issue. But if the data were produced under the right environmental conditions there is still too few of data points to draw any kind of conclusions from.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Apr 16, 2012 - 04:03pm PT
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Wait... I thought the sample size was much bigger. If they only tested 3 or 4 pairs then the results are meaningless.
At the very least, esp with a complete new material, I'd want to test samples from each supplier of raw product or different sheets/lot #'s. (assuming there's more than one)
It doesn't make sense not to test a couple hundred in various environmental conditions. All the money is in the R&D and tooling. Raw material cost is nothing.
It's not like we're asking them to crash 100 cars....
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golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
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Apr 16, 2012 - 04:43pm PT
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fear,
I was "assuming" that they only tested a few samples based upon their own data. And see Point #2 above. If they tested many samples, then why would the SS show 4 data points and the CrMo only show 3 points. Makes no sense.
And you are absolutely corrent in that a rigorous QA program would identify a key parameter of the raw material and test that on occaision so as not to get burned by one of your sub-suppliers.
edit:
By the way Werner. With regards to temperature, my professional guess is that the data is so spread out and there are so few points that temperature would only play a small part. Also, lower temperatures (at those where only the psychotic might climb ice, say -40F) would lead to failure of the crampons in fewer cycles. (We can only generaliize as we do not have all of the material specifics.
See Point #3 above. In extreme cold it is likely that your crampons are good for fewer than mileage specified.
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golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
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Apr 16, 2012 - 05:12pm PT
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It occurred to me that I did not summarize some of the info from the BD Graph in my previous post.
Sabre Pro SS
Average Cycles to failure: 12,312 +/- 3,047
Sabre Pro CrMo
Average Cycles to failure: 15,079 +/- 2454
In summary, the CrMo fails after completing 23% more cycles than the SS.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Apr 16, 2012 - 05:52pm PT
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It's not like we're asking them to crash 100 cars....
hmmmm,....
Just gimme a moment on that one,..
Agreed.
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Peter Metcalf Black Diamond
climber
SLC, UT
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Apr 16, 2012 - 07:29pm PT
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A Word from Black Diamond Equipment and Peter Metcalf
In the mid 1970s, I was attempting an early ascent of the Black Ice on Cannon Cliff and, while leading the crux nearly 30 feet out from my last protection, the pick of my ice tool broke off. Extricating myself from that situation was not something I will ever forget. In the early 1980s, when making the first alpine ascent of the South Face of Mount Hunter with Pete Athans and Glenn Randall, Glenn’s crampon broke in the midst of a very challenging lead, just below the summit plateau at dusk and in a raging early May blizzard. The result of this breakage and dealing with it in the storm was that Glenn lost three fingers to frostbite. Completing that climb and getting him down the west ridge of Mount Hunter after nearly two weeks of climbing with but a week’s rations will forever make me appreciate Glenn’s will to survive and upbeat demeanor. In 1989 Chouinard Equipment was forced to file for Chapter Eleven bankruptcy protection in the face of several failure-to-warn lawsuits.
All three of those events—combined with a life forged from climbing—helped define both who I am and the way that Black Diamond Equipment is run and managed.
The thread on this site has raised three questions:
a. Are BD’s stainless steel Sabretooth crampons safe?
b. Does Black Diamond put profits before individuals or do we operate with integrity?
c. Does anyone here at BD have other issues, above and beyond answering questions "a" and "b"?
I am going to make only one post on this subject—not because I don’t enjoy engaging with BD’s customers, but because my purpose is to answer the questions above in the most frank and forthright manner I can and to do it once. You are all free to read, respond, or react as you so determine.
So let's get on with it.
1. “Are BD’s stainless steel Sabretooth crampons safe?” and/or “Do we stand behind them 100%?”
It is clear that Kolin's QC Lab post in the BD Journal this past Friday (http://www.blackdiamondequipment.com/en-us/journal/climb/all/qc-lab-gear-doesnt-last-forever--crampons);, with its reams of testing data and analysis, was seen as an obfuscation by some and a marketing ploy by others.
So lets be clear: "Do we stand behind these crampons?" The answer is an unequivocal YES. These are the best performing, best selling, most rigorously tested, and most used Sabretooths in our history. Period. They are a result of years of design, development, and testing by the best engineers in the business.
I have led and managed this company since 1982 when Yvon hired me to take over for him, hence I have 30 years of design and manufacturing experience at Chouinard/Black Diamond by which to make this conclusive statement from. These crampons are 100% manufactured within a hundred yards of my desk at BD in Salt Lake City, which is where they are designed, developed, tested and constantly analyzed and checked. Crampons are part of what we do daily in Salt Lake City. Based upon our decades of daily engineering, designing and manufacturing of crampons, studying returns, analyzing our competitors crampons, performing side-by-side testing at room temperatures and in our commercial freezer, we ABSOLUTELY believe that our stainless steel Sabretooths crampons are the best crampons in their class. Period.
As noted by some on this site, BD has dozens and dozens of employees who actively climb ice, are mixed climbing enthusiasts, and do big alpine routes around the world (obviously that includes Chris Thomas, Roger Strong, Jack Tackle, Bill Belcourt, Doug Heinrich, KP, etc. etc.), and most of us use and love the Sabretooth crampon. In addition, we have dozens and dozens of the world's highest performing and most committed alpinists on our athlete team who use and love this crampon and have had nothing but accolades to say about it after days, weeks or months of climbing on them. That list of BD athletes includes, to name but a few: Marko Prezelj, Barry Blanchard, Will Gadd, Rolo Garibotti, Colin Haley, Kevin Mahoney, Kelly Cordes, Doug Chabot, Conrad Anker, Kyle Dempster, Hayden Kennedy, Simon Anthamatten, and "Jumbo" Yokoyama. Non-BD athletes have also used Sabretooths on significant climbs the world over, most recently was Doug Shepherd (check the new route he and John Frieh put up here: http://www.alpinist.com/doc/web12s/newswire-dickey-ruth-gorge-frieh-shepherd);. Most of the BD Europe guide team have made the Sabretooths their crampon of choice. NOT ONE of these globally respected, super-active alpinists have reported a single breakage issue with our stainless steel Sabretooths.
BD employs literally dozens of engineers whose lives are forged from climbing and our stainless steel Sabertooths have had the most rigorous lab and field testing of any crampon we have ever made. If you think that any other company devotes anything close to the level of lab and field testing of products that BD does, think again. We have employees who have worked at many of our competitors so I speak from fact, not conjecture. Yes, we have reams and reams of additional lab and field data that give us this unequivocal confidence in the Sabretooth, but based upon the reaction that the reams of data already summarized generated, sharing 3x more data is clearly not going to convince those who don't want to believe it or understand it. Also we have never attempted to hide non-trade secret data, and instead go to great lengths to share it. Whether you prefer a particular BD product or prefer that of one of our competitors, you can be confident that no one tests their equipment more rigorously and no one goes to greater lengths to share that data.
Question #2: “Does BD have Integrity” and/or “Do we put profits before the safety of our customers?”
As shared, I have firsthand experience with the potential life changing or life-ending consequences of gear that fails. The same is true with many of my peers at Black Diamond. Besides climbing actively myself, the majority of our hundreds of employees climb, and many climb very actively and at very high levels. In addition, many of our best friends, partners and even children now climb actively and boldly, as does our tight community of mountain athletes. I can assure you that neither I nor my BD peers want to put their lives and the lives of their best friends, loved ones or community of friends at risk because of gear issues. This is not an academic issue, this is our lives and we average a death and a memorial service roughly once a year with employees, former employees or close friends who have perished in the mountains because of rock fall, avalanches, or freak circumstances. Comforting a wife, parent, child, friend or loved one is one of the toughest responsibilities any of us will do in our lifetimes. If a lifetime of climbing has taught us anything, it is just how precious life is.
So I am looking all of you straight in the eyes when I say "No, we at BD do not put ourselves, loved ones, family, or dear friends in harm’s way in a pursuit for profits" Look, we have done half a dozen voluntary and expensive recalls in our history because we were concerned about the safety of our product. We are not inhibited or gutless to do so, if that is the right thing to do. Our actions speak for themselves.
Question 3: “Does anyone here have other issues motivating them outside of being sure that BD gear is as safe as possible?”
The first two answers have addressed Black Diamond's motivation, commitment and integrity to building great product. This third question is perhaps the toughest to address because it is filled with opinion, sensational negativity and personal attack. To be honest I am reticent to respond but will do so just this once - and anchor my thoughts in facts so that others reading this post may understand motivating factors at play. I cannot speak for others or know resolutely people's motivations. The intent here is to be transparent and not engage further name-calling.
I have had personal and professional relationships with some of the detractors on this thread. Specifically, Scott Cosgrove (COZ) was a sub rep/tech-rep for BD in the 1990s. Our relationship was solid and positive. When a BD sales rep position opened up for Southern California in 1998, Cosgrove committed himself to getting the job and was one of three finalists but was not ultimately offered the position. This appears to have coincided with the beginning of Coz’s sporadic and ongoing criticism of BD regardless of the issue.
Ron Olevsky (Piton Ron) and I go back to living in Camp 4 at the same time in the 1970's and having shared time and some climbing partners in the likes of Charlie Fowler, among others. The relationship between us was always respectful until a few years ago when Ron requested that BD shut down a small climbing dealer in southern Utah that he was in a personal dispute with. Though we had real empathy for Ron's situation, after some investigation it was clear that this was a personal matter that BD could not become embroiled in. Ron made it clear that this was an unacceptable conclusion by us.
I sincerely regret that the positive long-term relationships that BD (and I) had with these two individuals did not have the strength to survive the personal issues that could not be reconciled between us, and would welcome reasonable, direct, private conversation with Scott or Ron in an effort to move forward. To this point, we understand that some will take issue with Black Diamond products specifically and even take the next step of harboring personal bad feelings or even vendettas. While we do not like this fact, we accept it as reality.
My goal in responding to this thread is to directly refute loose assumptions and rumors and challenge any naysayer to prove their opinion with facts. BD stands behind the Sabretooth and all our products 100%. This does not mean that gear will never fail in the field and as we all know, climbing in all forms is inherently dangerous making any failure potentially perilous. Black Diamond will continue to seek solutions and innovate. We will test our gear tirelessly. We will never take our relations with climbers for granted and strive to continually earn their trust and welcome the opportunity to engage in reasonable discourse.
Black Diamond stainless steel Sabretooths have a level of engineering acumen, climber insight, manufacturing competency, values, and commitment to the sport and life of climbing that we are exceedingly proud of. We thank all of you who have reciprocated with your support and we regret but must accept that there are a small number who believe otherwise.
Thanks for reading and most sincerely,
Peter Metcalf
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GhoulweJ
Trad climber
El Dorado Hills, CA
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Apr 16, 2012 - 08:07pm PT
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Stand up reply... Period...
When a board member of a company gets that specific, it is not a joking matter.
Everybody: YOU choose your gear and how it is used. Your life depends on it.
Saberthooths.... decide for yourself...
Glenn’s crampon broke in the midst of a very challenging lead, just below the summit plateau at dusk and in a raging early May blizzard. The result of this breakage and dealing with it in the storm was that Glenn lost three fingers to frostbite.
You should have done like most others on STopo... Walk 30 feet over to the car and go home.... :-)
Jay Renneberg
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Apr 16, 2012 - 08:14pm PT
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Hah!
It worked! You finally showed (although dialogue is a two way street, not a one shot deal).
Though we had real empathy for Ron's situation
As in making a promise and then welching after you backed off threatening to move OR.
It wouldn't have looked too good if in the middle of that political play I had come forward with photos of the swastikas the dealer posted 40' from my kitchen window and then defended as his "first constitutional right".
When I called you the following year to report further unethical behavior you once again showed lack of moral courage, but by then you weren't in the media spotlight
would welcome reasonable, direct, private conversation with Scott or Ron
Well I don't know about Scott but you then refused to take my call.
You (and your guys) are great spin doctors, and no, my beef is not about crampons, but it still boils down to accountability and responsibility.
You outright lied to me on the phone (I challenge you to defy that), and then sold out half your people.
Shame on you!
If it takes Snaggletooths to expose you then so be it.
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GhoulweJ
Trad climber
El Dorado Hills, CA
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Apr 16, 2012 - 08:21pm PT
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Ron,
That is some real personal anger. Bummer you're carrying that....
The good news is that it does not relate to the thread title:
Serious Flaws with BD Stainless Sabertooth crampons?
Hope you can find peace with your troubles.
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labrat
Trad climber
Nevada City, CA
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Apr 16, 2012 - 08:39pm PT
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Thanks for the response Peter M...... Really pleased and surprised that you did given the posts that have been written on this topic.
Erik
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ms55401
Trad climber
minneapolis, mn
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Apr 16, 2012 - 08:51pm PT
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Question #3 (and Answer #3) are not germane in any way
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labrat
Trad climber
Nevada City, CA
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Apr 16, 2012 - 09:04pm PT
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The number of posts to this thread seems to be shrinking.... Someone is deleting posts!
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Apr 16, 2012 - 09:11pm PT
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My guess would be oakm?
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RDB
Social climber
wa
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Apr 16, 2012 - 09:17pm PT
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I just deleted one of mine from a few minutes ago. On second thought and knowing a tiny bit about Coz's story makes me nervious about the timing.
Nice to get a response from the CEO @ BD. Still digesting the validity what he had to say.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Apr 16, 2012 - 09:22pm PT
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peter, i appreciate the post.
and i think more test data would be swell.
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dirhk
Trad climber
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Apr 16, 2012 - 09:49pm PT
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That's the bomb?
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labrat
Trad climber
Nevada City, CA
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Apr 16, 2012 - 10:02pm PT
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Coz,
"the small chance of an accident" is a long way from the comments you have made on harnesses and other BD products.
I'll ask you once again. Please describe in DETAIL the specific safety concerns that you have. Can you document or describe or cite ANY injuries that have resulted from your specific safety concerns? If you cannot describe them how about adding some pictures?
You are losing all of your creditability and I'm having a hard time believing any of your comments relating to safety concerns at this point.
Please respond.
Erik "the faceless BD troll"
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GhoulweJ
Trad climber
El Dorado Hills, CA
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Apr 16, 2012 - 10:07pm PT
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^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
EDIT:
COZ
You're late with the challenge...
My goal in responding to this thread is to directly refute loose assumptions and rumors and challenge any naysayer to prove their opinion with facts
Challenge posed to you.... And as a reader of this thread, I think it's reasonable.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Apr 16, 2012 - 10:18pm PT
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Hey Peter,
Nice letter. And I probably speak for most of the readers that we couldn't care less about the personal dick-swinging contests also going on in this thread.
You alluded to reams of testing data. That's really the kind of thing I do care about. Your original response to the situation posted last week was a good start but left way too much open to speculation. Since you claim to already have done the testing, post more comprehensive results, warts and all. Make an engineer available to address direct questions. You've had employees in the past function in that role with great success.
Thank you
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Apr 16, 2012 - 10:26pm PT
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Where's Chris Harmston when we need him?
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m.
Trad climber
UT
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Apr 16, 2012 - 10:54pm PT
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Hey Coz: You and I have known each other forever- you know I've always respected you as a person and as a climber. I'm violating a personal rule to never post here [yeah, piton ron, I know I'm a wimp! :) ] in order to stand up for Black Diamond and my friends there. BD has sold over a million Bod
Harnesses since they were introduced. There has never been a single accident or fatality attributed to this harness' failure. I have absolutely no skin in this game- I'm no longer a part of BD and I don't own a single share of the new company. However, some of my dearest friends do still work there and I have tremendous affection and respect for them and for the company I helped found. I guess I'm speaking on all of our behalf as climbers and people of integrity who went to work, and still go to work, every day motivated by the desire to to design and manufacture the best gear in the world.
rock on,
maria cranor
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Russ Walling
Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
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Apr 16, 2012 - 11:42pm PT
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I think the bomb just went pfffffft....
Hi Maria!
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Apr 16, 2012 - 11:50pm PT
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Coz will be back. He has been like a bad sci if movie on this thread.....
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labrat
Trad climber
Nevada City, CA
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Apr 16, 2012 - 11:56pm PT
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I agree. He will return and still not present anything other than inflammatory statements. It's really sad how emotions cloud peoples judgement and common sense :-(
It happens to me too on occasion.....
Erik
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Bob Culp
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
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Apr 17, 2012 - 12:17am PT
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Peter,
Thanks for posting. It shouldn't have been necessary for you to do so in a forum like this, but I admire you for it. Sometimes silence can cause people to come to wrong conclusions.
I don't think people doubted your personal integrity and dedication to producing the best gear possible, I certainly don't. It is reassuring though to hear your take on the matter directly. Nobody knows more about this stuff than you. As far as I am concerned, which admittedly is not very far, I'm comfortable accepting your judgement. It's certainly better than mine.
I'm hoping to go to Cham this summer and if I actually get to do some real climbing for a change I would pick up a pair of Sabertooths were it not for the fact I absolutely love the Stingers I now use and wouldn't part with them.
Maria, it was so nice to hear (read) your voice. I always remember how kind you were to me the couple of times I visited the old Chouinard factory. It was an uplifting flashback to the good old days. I'm at the point in life when those flashbacks are usually occasioned by the news of yet another old friend croaking.
Bob Culp
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JBC
Trad climber
Portland, OR
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Apr 17, 2012 - 12:25am PT
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How about we keep a public running total?
Good idea Dane. However there is a great government agency that does this as well. I would not only encourage, but go so far as to implore anyone who has had an issue with these crampons to contact the CPSC. You will be doing the climbing community a favor.
A firmly believe that there is no way this thread or any of the other internet threads or Danes blog will get BD to address this issue. (Dane attempting to do this through his blog and contacting BD for over a year now with no progress.) But the CPSc, should it get enough complaints could. If need be the could even do so through legal action.
If you are one of the unfortunate folks to have experienced a failure, and you want answers - file a report with the CPSC!
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Gilwad
climber
Frozen In Somewhere
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Apr 17, 2012 - 12:28am PT
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I've stayed out of this discussion as I've worked with BD for 15 years on their ice gear, and climbed hard and a lot on several protos of the stainless Saber's as well as production models. My name is Will Gadd just to be clear, Gilwad is a fairly transparent nickname some of my friends use. I'll try to keep my comments to the Sabertooths, even though I know and respect many of the names on this thread. Some of this is a fight among divorced friends unfortunately.
My current stainless Sabertooths are just about totally worn out, and have been beat to death on hundreds of pitches of water ice, alpine terrain and just mountain wandering. So my Stainless Sabertooths wore out before they broke, as my pre-stainless ones did too. I have full faith in them. The warranty numbers are reportedly very good also. But no gear is invincible.
I have at least two friends who have broken mono point crampons from another manufacturer recently. Kolin's essay (http://www.blackdiamondequipment.com/en-us/blog/index/view/slug/qc-lab-gear-doesnt-last-forever--crampons); is, as usual, really honest--recent flexible boots may be an issue now for all manufacturers. Maybe design needs to change to better reflect the newer boots. I know it has at BD, as has been pointed out here, and I know I trust my crampons literally with my life. But, just as I replace a fuzzed-out rope, I'm replacing the current pair. They have seen literally hundreds of pitches of use; nothing lasts forever. Every pair of crampons that comes back to BD is examined by Kolin; if there is an issue it's going to show up in his numbers, and I have full faith in Kolin's integrity. The man does not bullshit about gear. If there's a serious problem it will be addressed, as it has in the past at BD.
One advantage to stainless is that cracks show up really, really well, unlike with a painted crampon. If we scraped the paint off our old crampons we might all be horrified, I'll leave it at that. I'll keep inspecting my gear carefully and often, and everyone who climbs should too. If you have a pair of stainless Saber's and see anything at all even potentially questionable then please send them back. Several people have found cracks etc., that's a solid warning sign obviously. If your tires are looking worn then replace them; but unlike a tire shop, BD will generally give you a new pair, usually with a smile and a sincere thanks. Nobody wants to know about problems more than BD.
Finally, I'll welcome any PMs about crampons or ice gear. No company is perfect obviously, I'll do my best help fix any problems with BD ice gear. More than a few people have been by my house for replacement gear; I take BD ice gear failures personally as I likely tested the gear, and I'm going to be using it a LOT.
PS--this video is relevant: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xziOZfXNaEkI was routinely doing 3,000+-foot days training for this climb, almost all of it on proto Stainless Saber's.
pPS--And Ron, I'm definitely coming south in May, future discussions to be held on the range. I'll bring my old 'poons and we'll see what they can take... On second thought, that's a stunningly bad idea but I'll still bring them. Looking forward to it.
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JBC
Trad climber
Portland, OR
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Apr 17, 2012 - 12:50am PT
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Thanks for the post Peter. I, like many others I suspect, am digesting it a bit. As a customer I would find a it very reassuring if you could answer the questions I posted earlier. (I am guessing you have either not yet seen them, or read them close to about the same time as your post.) Will, free to chime in as well if you are able! :)
How many broken Sabertooth SS crampons are you aware of?
Is this less, or more than the Sabertooth Cromo crampons corrected for ay sales difference.
How about compared to other BD crampons?
Do you know what is causing the breakage, and if so, what is it?
What have you done to address the issue?
Should climbers be concerned about these crampons?
Why has this issue not been addressed to the climbing public previously?
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GrahamJ
climber
In the rain
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Apr 17, 2012 - 01:13am PT
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thanks for the post Peter, and Will.
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ncrockclimber
climber
The Desert Oven
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Apr 17, 2012 - 01:21am PT
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In my earlier posts in this thread I expressed my negative opinion of BDs response to this issue. I wanted BD to provide more specific warranty information. I assumed that their reluctance to provide that information was because it would reflect poorly on the quality / durability of the product. Today, on the QC Lab section of their web site, BD posted the information that I (and I think many other people) requested. From my layman's perspective, it shows that there is not a serious quality / durability issue with crampons in question.
http://www.blackdiamondequipment.com/en-us/journal/all/all/qc-lab-gear-doesnt-last-forever--crampons#comment-7925
I still feel that BD could have handled this issue better with more transparency at an earlier date. I also still have some concerns about BDs change in ownership and non-US manufacturing. However, the combination of Peter's response and the willingness of the "BD Crew" at the lab to engage in a dialogue have greatly impressed me.
I feel that I need to give credit to BD for their recent responses. I also want to state that based on the information provided by BD, I am no longer concerned about the quality of the stainless steel Sabretooth crampons.
Thanks for doing the right thing BD. For whatever it is worth, your responses over the last few days make me happy to continue to buy and use BD gear.
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 17, 2012 - 01:47am PT
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I'd like to see what happens when the stress tests are done in a cold chamber in freezing temperatures.
Everything always changes radically in the extremes.
Yer all bad asses kick ass extreme climbers so you would know that too .....
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Apr 17, 2012 - 10:04am PT
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Well, this thread took a turn for the positive! Your response was way overdue Peter. I appreciate that you don't want to get involved in the personal bantering that will quickly and usually turn personal. meantime, if Dane and folks would keep a count of breakages, they can help maintain the quality you so desire....
...life goes on.
Thanks Dane, Bob Culp and everyone who contributed and is contributing.
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YoungGun
climber
North
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Apr 17, 2012 - 10:19am PT
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From the comments section on the QC LAB article:
We have seen no frame breaks on any Cyborgs, cromoly or stainless steel. Sabretooth frame/point breaks are slightly higher (0.05% to 0.03%) for stainless than cromoly (note: they are not of the same design). For frame/point breaks on the stainless steel Contacts, the rate (0.01%) is far lower than cromoly (0.05%) (also note they are not of the same design).
EDIT:
RDB, those numbers were in my post, directly above your reply, if you'd bothered to look... There, it's even in bold for ya now.
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RDB
Social climber
wa
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Apr 17, 2012 - 11:35am PT
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if folks would keep a count of breakages, they can help maintain the quality you so desire....
Thanks Bill, but not my job. Better that BD simply tells us how many returned Saber's they have had, out of how many produced. Let BD keep a public running total so we can make up our own minds on what kind of numbers are acceptable. That is one way BD might easily repair the "damage to the brand".
This has been such a silly topic to go on this long anyway. It only hurt BD. Not like any of this info is a state secret as they have acknowledged the 0.05% failure rate already. BD wants back what was at one time real credibility? They could start there. You can bet those failure and production figures are at the tips of more than one hand today @ BD.
"Stainless rocks!" The Saber is only one model of crampon from BD. As I said those numbers aren't state secrets. In this case I think they should be public, not because I am trying to be a prick but becasue I think it would help BD's flagging credibility.
As we all know gear breaks. The Saber isssue is now well past "long in tooth" and I have no doubt the issue has caused some heartache at BD and with their customer base. One way to relieve some of that heartache for the customers is simply come clean with the real numbers.
I still have two pair of stainless Sabers (Gen IIs bought at REI) hanging on my gear wall. And as I have said in print many times I really love climbing on them. Please excuse me if Peter's, Will's or Doug's endorsement have yet to convince me to start climbing on them again without a 2nd thought. The words of support here for the ss crampons don't match the last 14 months of reality.
I am not a BD hater, just a realist.
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GhoulweJ
Trad climber
El Dorado Hills, CA
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Apr 17, 2012 - 12:11pm PT
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RDB
Just a thought, maybe you just need to go buy a different crampon.
BD makes the Saertooth. They like how its made so that is the product.
You like the product but no-longer trust it. You are not satisfied with the BD reassurance offered.
Perhaps its time for you buy a new crampon that you trust.
Remeber, BD is a company run by people to sell product to you.
Those people decide procedure / product.
Your input as a customer is to buy or not buy and/or complain.
You have done both.
BD replied and made it clear that is THE REPLY.
Now we will see if BD fails or continues (freemarket system).
I expect they will continue.
EDIT:
There was once a time when, if people disagreed with the quaity of the product and disagreed with the people behind the product. Said person would prove them wrong by making a better product (thereby proving themselves correct) and take the market....
Have we as a society lost that vigor.... Are we becoming finger waggers toward the group of people the are "doers"???
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murf02
climber
NYC
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Apr 17, 2012 - 12:12pm PT
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I own them and do not hesitate to use them. They're not the first ones I grab normally but they do have many climbs and pitches behind them.
BD has always been more than fair over time; I sent them 2 sets of cams years back to have the nylon changed they replaced most of the wires free of charge. When the xenos harnesses were recalled (I busted all six clipper loops) BD sent out a new harness no questions asked.
Grivels 3rd generation Rambo's on the other hand were a nightmare for me personally.
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Starman
Trad climber
Sterling, MA
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Apr 17, 2012 - 12:17pm PT
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Werner said:
I'd like to see what happens when the stress tests are done in a cold chamber in freezing temperatures.
Everything always changes radically in the extremes.
In Peter Metcalf's, letter, about a page ago, he said:
Based upon our decades of daily engineering, designing and manufacturing of crampons, studying returns, analyzing our competitors crampons, performing side-by-side testing at room temperatures and in our commercial freezer, we ABSOLUTELY believe that our stainless steel Sabretooths crampons are the best crampons in their class.
Y'all might have missed it... Take care, bro
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RDB
Social climber
wa
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Apr 17, 2012 - 12:34pm PT
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I think its time for you buy a new crampon that you trust.
Easy there. I have crampons I trust. I also have BD crampons I bought. Like anyone else I get to ask questions.
a .05% failure rate is 5 in 10,000 crampons or to be more acurate for the end user that is more likely 5 failures in 5000 pairs. 1 in a 1000 odds of breaking one in your pair of ss saber crampons by BD's numbers? Is that correct?
20 (mostly pairs) of publically documented crampon failures. The real numbers @ BD would eliminate any wild speculation.
Because "by the numbers" I would start calling it 40 broken crampons. Now all of a sudden the numbers get much bigger across the board.
It is simple. How many pairs have been manufactured? How many pairs are known world wide to have failed? That very "raw" number would not be favorable to BD. But it would be realistic for us as consumers to make a decision from.
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BASE1361
climber
Yosemite Valley National Park
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Apr 17, 2012 - 12:49pm PT
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Equipment is designed and built by people who are flawed to begin with. Human Nature is flawed at the DNA level, yet when we build something from a crampon to a house to a car and even in medicine we EXPECT perfection. 100% no failure, no flaws.
You bought a pair of crampons that broke, you know others who have had some break?? So there is a flaw: You want BD to replace or refund them? design a new pair that is 100% break proof?
Sh#t happens. Fix it, move on and continue to climb.
maybe next year their crampons will be called "Flawless"
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aforslund
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Apr 17, 2012 - 03:01pm PT
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I have read both the BDEL Blog about the Sabretooths and Peter Metcalf's response. Both are wonderful reads but like a circus act they are all smoke and mirrors.
BD added 38% more material to the front of the horizontal point crampons, Serac, Sabretooth, Contact. If they weren't breaking why add the material?
BD claims that Stainless is lighter in their marketing but their lab says it's the same weight. Just a singular example of the double-speak.
Why is it that if there wasn't a problem with the crampon BD would take back all of the SS Sabretooth, Serac and Contact from REI in exchange for the new model with more material?
Why are these new models showing the same type of breakage?
In the blog post they mention a British Mountaineering report of crampons breaking but they don't mention if that was straps, toe-bails, heel levers. My guess is that report does not document catastrophic failure of front points.
Peter claims that BD has a great reputation of recalling gear. Yet, when compared to Petzl, Grivel, DMM, etc it seems that they are at the back of the pack.
If crampons break typically in the same manner how come there aren't 20+ reports of front points failing on crampons from other manufacturers of similar design?
While Peter says that going to a funeral once a year for a fellow fallen climber that does not mean he is putting the climbing community first.
The make up of the BDE board and the largest shareholder in the company leave me questioning very much as to whether or not BDE cares for the community. While past performance is not an indicator of future results it is all we have to go on. Mr. Kanders is not one that I would trust with my life. And, now that BD still hasn't addressed the issue beyond some smoke and mirrors Peter Metcalf isn't one to trust either.
I will continue to vote against the board and I will encourage climbers to buy stock in BDE and vote as well.
Some transparency, honest answers and a lot less propaganda is what the situation demands.
BD's cheerleaders aren't going to change the fact that there is a major failure in a critical piece of safety equipment even if they get paid to climb on BD.
edited for spelling.
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labrat
Trad climber
Nevada City, CA
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Apr 17, 2012 - 04:02pm PT
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Aforslund,
My responses to your comments are in (I) below. They are just my thoughts based on reading the thread and associated reading.
Erik
I have read both the BDEL Blog about the Sabretooths and Peter Metcalf's response. Both are wonderful reads but like a circus act they are all smoke and mirrors. (Starting off by telling us it's all lies is not the best way to get us to believe your following points. I'm sure many people stopped reading here)
BD added 38% more material to the front of the horizontal point crampons, Serac, Sabretooth, Contact. If they weren't breaking why add the material?
(It's called improving the product based on what they were finding from field testing, very common phenomenon.)
BD claims that Stainless is lighter in their marketing but their lab says it's the same weight. Just a singular example of the double-speak.(Key word "marketing", believe the qc lab)
Why is it that if there wasn't a problem with the crampon BD would take back all of the SS Sabretooth, Serac and Contact from REI in exchange for the new model with more material? (I don't quite understand your point, key point for me is that if there is a problem they take them back.)
Why are these new models showing the same type of breakage? (Boot types?)
In the blog post they mention a British Mountaineering report of crampons breaking but they don't mention if that was straps, toe-bails, heel levers. My guess is that report does not document catastrophic failure of front points. (I think you are correct in thinking this.)
Peter claims that BD has a great reputation of recalling gear. Yet, when compared to Petzl, Grivel, DMM, etc it seems that they are at the back of the pack. (Can you support this with documentation, numbers, and first hand accounts please? Are you asking the same pointed questions of other crampon manufacturers?)
If crampons break typically in the same manner how come there aren't 20+ reports of front points failing on crampons from other manufacturers of similar design? (Sounds to me like some of these reports are starting to come in, Will Gadd post above. How about asking Will? He is open to questions. Again, are you asking the same pointed questions of other crampon manufacturers?)
While Peter says that going to a funeral once a year for a fellow fallen climber that does not mean he is putting the climbing community first. (not worth responding to this)
The make up of the BDE board and the largest shareholder in the company leave me questioning very much as to whether or not BDE cares for the community. While past performance is not an indicator of future results it is all we have to go on. Mr. Kanders is not one that I would trust with my life. And, now that BD still hasn't addressed the issue beyond some smoke and mirrors Peter Metcalf isn't one to trust either. (Peter has addressed it but you are blind to the answer.)
I will continue to vote against the board and I will encourage climbers to buy stock in BDE and vote as well. (If you truly believe BD has these problems I suggest you don't encourage your friends to spend hard earned cash on a company you are bashing. Your friends will be mad they lost money....)
Some transparency, honest answers and a lot less propaganda is what the situation demands. (If you don't call the response on the BD website and Peter M's post here "some transparency" there does not seem to be any hope of you coming around.)
BD's cheerleaders aren't going to change the fact that there is a major failure in a critical piece of safety equipment even if they get paid to climb on BD. (I believe if you check the gear regularly and use properly you will notice you have a problem long before it becomes a critical problem.)
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labrat
Trad climber
Nevada City, CA
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Apr 17, 2012 - 06:31pm PT
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Coz,
Thank you for some details. What are the model names of harnesses that you are concerned about having a problem? Is it all of them? Is it ones that are currently in production or types not made anymore?
I believe I can visualize what you are talking about but it would help if you gave a bit more information on the specific harness(es?)
Thanks again.
Erik
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Russ Walling
Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
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Apr 17, 2012 - 06:41pm PT
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Stop with the leg humping, if you have a beef about teasing you about your rental property then man up and state it, I was only kidding. Just get off my back, Bully boy. Really! I appreciate the work you did on my pad and paid you for it.
Wow... that's weird...
Ummm... relax Coz... as you say, "I'm just joking..." "I was kidding.... " "relax...."
All this has to do with is you looking and acting like a buffoon once more in the forum. That's all. Could have been anyone... but alas, once again it was you. The big bluster routine and calling guys to the mat is so F'n funny though.... don't stop.
It is a fatal flaw that Metcalf made me aware of, and he knows (Peter Metcalf) exactly what I'm talking about.
If this is remotely true, which I actually doubt, you should do the right thing and start a class action suit or something. At least light the fuse on the bomb.
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jfs
Trad climber
Upper Leftish
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Apr 17, 2012 - 07:20pm PT
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The problem with BD harnesses is the overlay webbing (tie in point) is split, if you clip your tie in knot, separate from your belay device and if you are clipped into an anchor and take a fall on said anchor you will have the same force as applied to a daisy chain pocket. Your harness could fail...
coz, what is the "overlay webbing"? When would I ever "clip [my] tie in knot"? How is the belay device involved with my tie in knot? How would a particular construction/design result in a certain "force"? Is there a 2kN strength rating on a critical part of the harnesses similar to daisy chains?
I'll be honest - your description is not clear.
edit in: I have at least four different BD harnesses - a Chaos, a Momentum, a Bod, and a Couloir. I don't see a "split" anywhere.
I'm making a serious attempt at understanding what you are referring to. Feel free to post back that I'm not intelligent enough to be worth responding to...
but I'm honestly trying to understand you.
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Russ Walling
Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
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Apr 17, 2012 - 07:27pm PT
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The problem with BD harnesses is the overlay webbing (tie in point) is split, if you clip your tie in knot, separate from your belay device and if you are clipped into an anchor and take a fall on said anchor you will have the same force as applied to a daisy chain pocket. Your harness could fail...
If you need photos and a more clear explanation, I suggest bringing Chris Harmston out of retirement. If you cannot follow along, you don't know enough to post.
huh???
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Apr 17, 2012 - 07:27pm PT
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jfs,
I'm sure that wearing only two is sufficient.
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jfs
Trad climber
Upper Leftish
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Apr 17, 2012 - 07:30pm PT
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ha! Ron. Yes, I agree. But I feel so much safer when I'm wearing all four.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Apr 17, 2012 - 07:37pm PT
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The problem with BD harnesses is the overlay webbing (tie in point) is split, if you clip your tie in knot, separate from your belay device and if you are clipped into an anchor and take a fall on said anchor you will have the same force as applied to a daisy chain pocket. Your harness could fail...
If you need photos and a more clear explanation, I suggest bringing Chris Harmston out of retirement. If you cannot follow along, you don't know enough to post.
damn. was this the bomb we were all waiting for? i think it was a dud.
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labrat
Trad climber
Nevada City, CA
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Apr 17, 2012 - 08:36pm PT
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I think what Coz is trying to say is that if the belay loop and another tie in point of your harness (E.g.a rope or personal anchor system)is pulled in opposite directions. This would have to be a high load situation where a leader falls immediately after leaving a belay or maybe a case where a person takes a huge enough fall to pull the belayer upwards and pull on the anchor severely.
In any case more specific information on harness type is needed from Coz!
Erik
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dirhk
Trad climber
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Apr 17, 2012 - 10:16pm PT
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The problem with BD harnesses is the overlay webbing (tie in point) is split, if you clip your tie in knot, separate from your belay device and if you are clipped into an anchor and take a fall on said anchor you will have the same force as applied to a daisy chain pocket.
Coz was gonna be a tech rep.
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Bob Culp
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
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Apr 17, 2012 - 10:52pm PT
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Hmm. Don't have a harness at hand and oddly enough can't remember what the details are but - - isn't Coz saying if you clip your belay anchor through the tie-in loop on the waist belt and fall you will get a sideways pull on the bar tacs like you would get on a daisy? Only thing I can think of.
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mwatsonphoto
Trad climber
los angeles, ca
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Apr 17, 2012 - 10:58pm PT
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wouldn't that be true of all harnesses and not exclusive to a particular model of BD?
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Bob Culp
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
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Apr 17, 2012 - 11:00pm PT
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Seems like it. I have some harnesses in the basement but I'm too lazy to go look. Good nite.
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RDB
Social climber
wa
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Apr 18, 2012 - 01:47am PT
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Couple of final questions. In the Fall of '10 or early winter of '11 BD obviously made an inline change and added 30% or more material to the front point area on the frame of the Sabers where both models (I & II) have been breaking.
We have been calling them Gen I and Gen II for clarity's sake.
As late as last Fall (2011) you could still buy Gen I Sabers at retailers online and in person. Can you still?
Was there ever a recall internally of the Gen I crampons and replacement with Gen IIs. If you own Gen Is will BD replace them with Gen IIs prior to a failure?
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labrat
Trad climber
Nevada City, CA
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Apr 18, 2012 - 02:42am PT
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No idea if BD will replace " gen 1 with gen 2". I suggest you send them an email and ask. Probably much more likely to get an answer.
Please post their response here.
Erik
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RDB
Social climber
wa
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Apr 18, 2012 - 12:37pm PT
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Sorry to still be the one seemingly curious soul left here.
Hey Eric. I didn't expect you to have a response. I also posted the same question on the BD QC Lab web site at the same time. Hopefully they will have a respoinse. Seems like a reasonable question to ask in a much more public forum to me.
Eric I think you might be a bit confused. I am not asking about my own crampons here. Although I do own a couple of pair of stainless horizontals. I am asking on behalf of the million or so page readers I have at Cold Thistle from an international audience located in virtually every alpine country in the world. It is a question one of those readers posed to me.
One in a 1000 failure rate? Is that really the odds or is it more yet?
Dane Burns @ Cold Thistle
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 18, 2012 - 12:49pm PT
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I'm also curious RDB.
The video of the stress test machines were in the lab not the commercial freezer.
The machines do not look potable? (I'm asking.)
They say they have a cold room. (commercial freezer)
Did they move those stress test machines into that commercial freezer room to test the stainless steel under freezing temps?
There's no real evidence of that except vague words ("performing side-by-side testing at room temperatures and in our commercial freezer").
So those machines were actually placed into that cold room and made operational for stress testing the front points in the same manner as in the video?
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RDB
Social climber
wa
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Apr 18, 2012 - 07:04pm PT
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Is it just me or is it really hard to get a simple and straight forward answer in any public forum?
I posed this question on the BD website and added the bold insert here on the "recall":
Dane Burns @ Cold Thistle
17 Apr 2012, 11:52PM
In the Fall of '10 or early winter of '11 BD obviously made an inline change and added 30% or more material to the front point area on the frame of the Sabers where they have been breaking.
We have been calling them Gen I and Gen II for clarity's sake.
As late as last Fall (2011) you could still buy Gen I Sabers at retailers online and in person.
Was there ever a recall internally of the Gen I crampons and replacement with Gen IIs. (the answer is yes in at least one retailer's case) If you own Gen Is will BD replace them with Gen IIs prior to a failure?
Thanks for the reply.
The BD answer is here:
http://www.blackdiamondequipment.com/en-us/journal/climb/all/qc-lab-gear-doesnt-last-forever--crampons
and reprinted here:
18 Apr 2012, 4:04PM
@Dane Burns As previously stated in our QC Lab post on the Black Diamond Journal and in Peter Metcalf's post on Supertopo.com, our designers and engineers always look for opportunities to improve designs through in-line adjustments. These iterative design tweaks are part of any BD product, be it a carabiner, crampon, ski boot, headlamp or trekking pole. And, as stated previously as well, we stand behind all of our products, including all stainless steel crampons.
Looks to me like they are standing behind the crampons. Swapping Gen Is for Gen IIs should be easy as BD really does stand behind the product.
Here is how you tell the difference:
"Interesting observation from a picture. 2nd gen Saber on the left and 1st generation Saber on the right. Serac's look to have added the same amount of material to the forward rails. Difference across the flat, in the same area as the breaks above, has gone from .53" to .70". Or if my numbers are correct, a 38% increase in material to the rails. The center bar on the front points went from .50" to .62" or 24%."
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labrat
Trad climber
Nevada City, CA
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Apr 18, 2012 - 08:33pm PT
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I seem to have quite a bit of trouble getting an answer from coz on specifics about the harness questions he has raised :-)
That is quite a difference in the crampon picture and measurements. BD did not give an answer to your replacement question. I wonder what they would do if you sent them in to BD with a letter stating your concerns about breakage and how many days a year and vertical pitches you use them on....
Erik
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Apr 18, 2012 - 09:18pm PT
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Anyone else think this is some new-age performance art?
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 18, 2012 - 10:59pm PT
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My wife was doing inventory in the Rescue office today and up came a Black Diamond harness.
Me and Jesse were looking at it trying to figure out what coz is talking about.
Lo and behold I now understand .......
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labrat
Trad climber
Nevada City, CA
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Apr 18, 2012 - 11:01pm PT
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Werner,
Please post a picture
Erik
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 18, 2012 - 11:10pm PT
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I think I'm gonna ask the boss if I can throw the dummy off the cliff with this harness.
We have lots of dummies (manikins) which weigh about 200 lbs.
Labrat there's no photo to be seen.
I'm not sure yet if it's possible to rip the the stitching out as coz claims.
But maybe the dummy will tell us?
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labrat
Trad climber
Nevada City, CA
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Apr 18, 2012 - 11:17pm PT
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How about some details? What type of harness(es)? All harnesses? Can you write up a scenario? Draw a picture? Something?
Surprised you don't have a camera and cannot post a picture. :-(
Erik
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JBC
Trad climber
Portland, OR
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Apr 18, 2012 - 11:23pm PT
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Sorry to still be the one seemingly curious soul left here.
You are not the only one Dane. While BD has answered SOME of the questions I posted, a number are still unanswered.I also think there are large number of lurkers here who don't want to get involved with the additional drama surrounding this thread.
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 18, 2012 - 11:23pm PT
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Relax dude.
It's not the end of the world yet.
There's no way to take a picture without cutting some of the harness padding away.
I don't have permission to free lance with govt. equipment.
I have to get permission first ....
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SofCookay
climber
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Apr 18, 2012 - 11:25pm PT
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I have a couple of BD harnesses and, after examining them, I get what Coz is saying and he is correct. I'll see if I can post some pics to clarify.
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WhiskeyToast
Social climber
Hawaii
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Apr 18, 2012 - 11:25pm PT
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I think Coz is referring to the Bod harness. Maria (m.) several pages back states:
"BD has sold over a million Bod
Harnesses since they were introduced. There has never been a single accident or fatality attributed to this harness' failure.
Greg
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crunch
Social climber
CO
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Apr 18, 2012 - 11:45pm PT
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Who needs a damn harness, anyway....or belay device?
And to hell with those stupid trampolines, whether they are generation I or Generation II, stainless or Cromoly....
Just get up on the rock and climb!
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 18, 2012 - 11:51pm PT
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Yeah it's true.
You don't need sh!t.
One only needs motivation.
Too many gear freaks for me.
I hate looking at gear and talking about it.
Throw it all in the dumpster ......
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RDB
Social climber
wa
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Apr 19, 2012 - 12:25am PT
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Kinda a step back but....I heard much it can be done with just an axe and a decent pair of boots.
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labrat
Trad climber
Nevada City, CA
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Apr 20, 2012 - 01:46am PT
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Werner,
It's been 24 hours. Make the government wheels turn. Tick tick. This is about safety and dumb Americans.........
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labrat
Trad climber
Nevada City, CA
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Apr 20, 2012 - 01:48am PT
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Excuse me "stupid Americans" (my apologies to Canada!)
Erik
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labrat
Trad climber
Nevada City, CA
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Apr 20, 2012 - 05:10pm PT
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bump
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zxcvbnm
climber
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Apr 20, 2012 - 07:44pm PT
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I have a BD momentum harness and i noticed the sketchy overlay design within the first few times of looking at the harness.
As far as i can tell, if the couple of bartacks left of the tie in loop blow out then your tie in loop and belay loop will be completely disconnected from the waistbelt. On daisy chains these pockets rip out easily but taking a normal lead fall loads the tie in loop like that and they don't fail(aka the bartacks are strong enough). I can't see how the loading you describe is any different from a standard lead fall where the rope pulls on the tie in pockets. If you are tied into the anchor with your rope then you will have the same loading via the knot at your harness as any other fall that is caught by the rope. Right?
I'm guess i'm missing something but it would be nice to have a dumbed down explanation.
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labrat
Trad climber
Nevada City, CA
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Apr 23, 2012 - 08:36pm PT
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still waiting........
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labrat
Trad climber
Nevada City, CA
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Apr 24, 2012 - 05:27pm PT
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and waiting.....
Maybe I should start a new topic since it's harnesses I'm wanting answers about and this thread has drifted a bit?
Erik
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bmacd
Trad climber
100% Canadian
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Apr 24, 2012 - 06:03pm PT
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omg just read about the harness problem - another return to MEC - I was experiencing tail creep at the buckle too, at least that was my belief
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labrat
Trad climber
Nevada City, CA
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Apr 24, 2012 - 06:57pm PT
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Maybe I should be more clear what I'm waiting for.......
I am waiting for......
Coz to provide facts that demonstrate this so called unsafe harness design. This would include testing, pictures, or a concise written description for his accusations. He has not done so...... He just keeps spewing his dislike for anything BD.
or
Werner to provide some supportive information since he has stated "Lo and behold I now understand ....... "
or
SofCookay to back up "I get what Coz is saying and he is correct. I'll see if I can post some pics to clarify. "
So far I have seen NOTHING to support this argument. I do know these things can take some time but I will keep asking.
Erik
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labrat
Trad climber
Nevada City, CA
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Apr 24, 2012 - 07:58pm PT
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Thanks Dingus! Now we are getting somewhere.
Next things that need to be clarified is to confirm with Coz that this is indeed one of the models he is talking about and confirm the configuration of how the harness would be pulled in one direction by the belay loop and in another direction by the rope (tied into both upper and lower points).
Any chance you can provide a follow up picture of this Dingus?
Then testing is in order.......
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labrat
Trad climber
Nevada City, CA
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Apr 24, 2012 - 08:07pm PT
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LoL!Dingus!
(edit) Dingus you deleted your post... :-))
How about confirming for me that even if the "pocket" were to fail you would still have a continuous section of nylon tape to the buckle and as far as you can tell going the other way around the waist? Your pictures appear to show this configuration.
What kind of load does it take to rip apart to solid bar tacks? Anyone know?
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tarek
climber
berkeley
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Apr 24, 2012 - 09:13pm PT
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lr,
Your incessantly demanding tone is justified by what exactly?
Draw a frikin' picture.
For example, if a climber were to attach himself to a hanging belay through the waist tie-in loop only (huge error) and catch a fall directly onto the belay loop, forces would be pulling the bartacks apart. If the 4 bartacks fail, the belay loop is on the leg loops, the belayer is no longer attached to the belay--goodnight.
I wear and whip on BD harnesses (loved that Petzl Jump, though). The flaw is way down on my list of worries climbing. BUT, I didn't see it, either. Coz has a point, one that he does not take credit for developing.
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 24, 2012 - 09:26pm PT
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Tarek I love the Petzl jump too.
Still using them.
I hate those Black Diamond harnesses and not because of the so called flaw.
Just ugly looking and inefficient harnesses.
Labrat your incessantly demanding tone would have gotten you some verbal flogging but Tarek already did the justice.
I can't believe you are so obsessive with all this.
Way to go Dingus too :-)
What me worry .....
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Holdplease2
Big Wall climber
Yosemite area
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Apr 24, 2012 - 09:47pm PT
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I have checked our two BD regular harnesses, one in the shop, and my wall harness and it only takes the blowing of the two bar tacks to be out of there. Interestingly, on the new harnesses the tail that demonstrates that the end of the webbing is at the bar tacks is now covered with a nylon sheath, giving the "impression" that the webbing goes further into the body of the harness. It does not.
This is especially important in the wall harness, where people are often tied in with just their daisy chains which are static and girth hitched to the waist loop or belay loop. Two bar tacks between you and the great beyond if you girth hitch your two/three daisies and aren't in the rope.
Additionally, a static daisy fall taken on lead (not exactly unheard of) even if you are tied into the rope, could disconnect everything but the leg loops from the rope.
Of course, no failures on the record so maybe they are "special" bar tacks? They don't look much beefier than the two that space the BD daisy chains
Kate
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JBC
Trad climber
Portland, OR
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Apr 25, 2012 - 01:44am PT
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What kind of load does it take to rip apart to solid bar tacks? Anyone know?
To answer your question labrat I pulled this off the BD website warning on daisy chain failures:
"Basically, it’s possible that when you clip a second loop, or pocket of your daisy, to the main carabiner, attached to the end loop of your daisy, that the end result MAY really be the biner just being clipped across the tack of the pocket, and therefore being really, REALLY weak—as low as 500 pounds. Below is a video that clearly shows the danger. You may have to watch it a few times, because it’s pretty freaker crazy, and no, I’m not a magician."
(Emphasis is mine.)
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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Apr 25, 2012 - 02:51am PT
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I looked at the photos and I still don't see the problem. I usually tie-in around both the leg loops and the waist part of the harness so I can't see the "two bar tack" problem.
The belay/rappel loop goes through the leg loops and waist part of the harness, as well, so I don't see a problem there if you are using the harness correctly.
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mike m
Trad climber
black hills
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Apr 25, 2012 - 09:56am PT
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Isn't the buckle conected with bar-tacks as well. Are all bar-tacks created equal?
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Apr 25, 2012 - 10:33am PT
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On my way back from NYC I had breakfast yesterday with one of my favorite people, BD founder Maria.
She already knows why Metcalf is one of my least favorite people but, having drunk the Kool-aid for so many years I fear that she is too close to see how the corporate culture has morphed.
And you can't lay this at Kanders' feet. It is more like BD changed to to fit his archetype. It doesn't take much smarts to see that, as always, greed is not "good"; it corrupts.
Three words are the remedy;
BOYCOTT BLACK DIAMOND!
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Russ Walling
Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
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Apr 25, 2012 - 11:30am PT
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A bar tack is not a bar tack is not a bar tack. You guys ain't going to figure this out on line.
Get a harness, send it to one of the online gear wreckers, and let them wreck it. They will give you some numbers that will at least make some sense. There are like 3 guys doing this here on the Taco.
If this is a 15 year "problem" and the problem has never shown up, it hardly seems to be fatal. There would be stiffs stacked like cord wood all over the place if this failure method was happening. Has there been even one reported case? I'm not saying it couldn't happen, but in all those climber hours, has it happened? I don't own a BD Harness and barely have a grasp on how the failure might happen, but still.... get some real numbers, then bring out the pitchforks.
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 25, 2012 - 11:44am PT
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Put on yer BD harness and tie in to it "wrong" with a 30 foot static line and huck yerself off a building with a bunch of mattresses at the bottom.
If it fails you'll then know if there's anything to worry about. :-)
When I saw "the potential" so called flaw I realized what coz was talking about.
That was the lo and behold.
Not that I thought anyone was gonna die tomorrow.
Russ said it better than anyone up post .....
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steelmnkey
climber
Vision man...ya gotta have vision...
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Apr 25, 2012 - 11:57am PT
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I'm thinking put on your harness, tie into a 100 foot rope and jump off a 50 foot building.
That will put it to rest for anyone who's BD harness is giving them nightmares.
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tarek
climber
berkeley
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Apr 25, 2012 - 11:59am PT
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Russ is right. These bartacks are not daisy chain bartacks, nor is the webbing daisy chain webbing. It's way stronger than tubular webbing, for example. I'm not dumping my harness, either.
As we all know, however, even one fatality due to a design flaw with this much jabbering behind it would be extremely costly for BD, so it's not really about the numbers. It's about the amount of effort/cost required to modify the design, if needed. I may be naive, but I'd bet that BD has tested the possible misuse of their harnesses and are satisfied with the results. If you tie in through a gear loop (has happened), after all, yer gonna die, so we know there are also acceptable scenarios of potential misuse.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Apr 25, 2012 - 01:05pm PT
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I'm still not seeing it....
Could somebody draw a really simple picture of what the situation is that could cause that harness to fail?
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bmacd
Trad climber
100% Canadian
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Apr 25, 2012 - 02:10pm PT
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Still wouldn't it be smart of them to redesign an intellectually more secure tie in point ?
"Perception is everything" - Don Juan, Journey to Itxlan
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miwuksurfer
Social climber
Mi-Wuk
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Apr 25, 2012 - 03:00pm PT
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If you tie in through a gear loop (has happened), after all, yer gonna die, so we know there are also acceptable scenarios of potential misuse.
Metolius' gear loops are rated to 10 kn. I believe BD was having issues with their gear loops breaking under normal circumstances even. So maybe say "if you tie into the gear loop of a BD harness yer gonna die."
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
merced, california
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Apr 25, 2012 - 04:59pm PT
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If I had no background here, I would hold my tongue.
But the fact is: I know about defects.
They usually only show up in the field and mostly it's minor BS.
Dingus hit the eyeball. Nice head shot. And with the silencer.
"Run Away! Run Away!" (KNIGHTS ALL YELL TOGETHER) "Run Away!"
I wish there were a way to take a photo, in a similar manner, of WB"s brain so we could see the defect(s), if any. Could have used a similar device at TNF in the seconds shop.
Shoot, Werner...you're the most useful guy on this forum for practical sense and knowledge.
Doesn't make him God. Or His son; but, still, Werener Saves!
He never really raves, he just gets fed up with the stoops.
Turds can never hurt him.
Nicely put, cogent, wise remarks, "Veah-nach."
By the way, it's the usual thing to pronounce an other's name in the manner that the person himself does. Never heard him say "Veah-nach."
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GhoulweJ
Trad climber
El Dorado Hills, CA
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Apr 25, 2012 - 05:08pm PT
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Ron and COZ : cover your eyes... Move along.
I'm glad we have BD. I was glad Yvonne sold if to the employees bitd.
I think they have made my time in the mountains better. I do think they care if I die because of a fault in their gear.
Anyway, just saying....... Thanks.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Apr 25, 2012 - 07:08pm PT
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Wasn't there a death on Touchstone due to another manufacturer's device being used in an unanticipated manner that it was not designed for?
Didn't they subsequently come out with a specific counter-indication?
If Coz's scenario is unanticipated and not part of the design and rarely employed is that reason enough to just wait for another death before doing something about it?
This is just an example of the less than stellar morality embodied by the BD corporate culture.
And gf, I make most of my money as a capitalist pig with a conscience. Not a commie by a long shot.
Hell I've even thought about buying a share of BD just to attend the stockholder's meetings!
And who's gf are you anyway?
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tarek
climber
berkeley
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Just got back from a trip and looked at my BD harness.
Note the difference between it and the harness in the photo DMT posted (copied here).
This seems to mitigate the potential "daisy chain" stress problem as the pocket won't be pulled apart so directly in my harness.
I highly doubt, btw, that the type of webbing involved does not matter in the case of either harness. Different webbing will likely hold stitches differently, and thread is also important. But what do I know?
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disgrunter
Social climber
Uk
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Nov 11, 2012 - 02:42pm PT
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what im reading is shocking,
Although we maintain product liability insurance in amounts that we believe are reasonable, there can be no assurance that we will be able to maintain such insurance on acceptable terms, if at all, in the future or that product liability claims will not exceed the amount of insurance coverage. Additionally, we do not maintain product recall insurance. As a result, product recalls or product liability claims could have a material adverse effect on our business, results of operations and financial condition.
my very kind girlfriend just bought me a brand new pair of BD serac's. She was told at the shop (UK) that because these are ppe they cannot be returned even if not used. I was well chuffed (happy), a shiny new pair of crampons. I then decided to check reviews on the net and found that they are some what dubious. I cant return them to the shop,,,,, absolutely raging. Try selling these on ebay,,, doubt ill get anywhere near the retail price she paid due to their reviews, how can i climb with any confidence,, yes i am a beginner but confidence matters a lot,
here it comes,, fukin yanks,,,sort it out,,,, :)
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disgrunter
Social climber
Uk
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Nov 13, 2012 - 05:41am PT
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hhahaha, guess ill find someone to buy them or ill die trying
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JP.Franklin
Trad climber
Santiago-CHILE
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Regarding the issues of using stainless steel for manufacturing crampons i can say that Cr-Moly is by far a better material for that application.
If Stainless is so good why don,t BD use it to make technical ice picks.
Stainless isn`t a bad material...it is very good instead, but as a choice for ice climbing crampons is rather poor.
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SuperTopo on the Web
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The frontpoints were a little loose after the first trip, so I tightened the bolts down. Didn't see anything similar after the second trip.
Let us know!