Cerro Torre, A Mountain Consecrated - The Resurrection of th

Search
Go

Discussion Topic

Return to Forum List
Post a Reply
Messages 721 - 740 of total 1905 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
New Age II

climber
Jan 25, 2012 - 11:08am PT
@ ROLO ...
Listen to the words of David Lama?
janeclimber

Ice climber
Jan 25, 2012 - 11:13am PT
Many thanks to Leo for giving an objective recount in the midst of the heated debate.
PeteC

climber
Jan 25, 2012 - 11:15am PT
Right or wrong, this thread makes for great reading...I can't decide what was more entertaining-- Leo Dickensons fantastic contribution to the debate, or the Italian guys being asked if they had caught any trout lately...
enzolino

climber
Galgenen, Switzerland
Jan 25, 2012 - 11:36am PT
Let’s imagine for a second that Maestri hadn’t bolted the ridge. The first ascent would have been done in 2012. The 1970 ascent has obliterated part of the future of alpinism. It took away from the opportunity for future generations of alpinists to try a clean, virgin line, devoid of any industrial waste.
Claude Garden is a Genius ...
I wonder how many climbs we have to cancel from the past, because new generations will be able to do better ...
Congratulation Rolo ... very "smart" article ...
The cad

climber
Does it matter, really?!?
Jan 25, 2012 - 11:37am PT
Claude Gardien wrote:
Let’s imagine for a second that Maestri hadn’t bolted the ridge. The first ascent would have been done in 2012.

I think that this assertion is quite questionable.
enzolino

climber
Galgenen, Switzerland
Jan 25, 2012 - 11:38am PT
@New Age II
@ ROLO ...
Listen to the words of David Lama?
He is busy looking for consensus ...
Give me one hour and I'll translate it in english ... bye ...

¿Tienes una opinión sobre lo que hicieron Jason Kruk y Hyden Kennedy?

Ellos escalaron la ruta sin utilizar los clavos, eso estuvo muy bien, ese es su propio estilo y está muy bien, pero lo que hicieron cuando descendían, sacar los clavos, no fue algo muy inteligente. Creo que ellos no tenían el derecho de hacerlo, esa es mi opinión.

¿Qué piensas sobre la discusión que se desató por el tema de los clavos de Maestri, si está bien utilizarlos o no para llegar a la cumbre, si es justo utilizar cualquier medio con tal de lograr el objetivo?

Me parece que la cuestión es más sobre destruir o no destruir. Porque en mi opinión, el primer ascenso, en este caso el de Maestri, de alguna forma él tenía derecho a hacer en la montaña casi lo que él quisiera, pero al mismo tiempo él debería haber hecho su mejor esfuerzo. Si agregas bolts o los sacas, esas dos cosas son como destruir la ruta, es destruir lo que otra persona ha hecho y nadie te da el derecho. No creo que el eje del tema sea cuáles son tus habilidades, si sos capaz de escalar con o sin los bolts, si no que estaban ahí, entonces ¿quién te da el derecho a sacarlos o poner otros si no puedes escalarla?
Kinobi

climber
Jan 25, 2012 - 11:41am PT
Guys...
I have been working very hard these days, and I can't read all the posts (together with the junk) that appeared here.
BUT...
I see loads of criticism to Maestri. But most misses the points that we are talking about 2 kids that erased somebody's else route... not about Maestri.

Anyway...

I had the pleasure to be translater by an article appeared in Climbing written by Mark Synnot and Jeff Achey a few years ago.
There is a buch of guys talking sh#t about Maestri's personality. Why don't you guys get Mark or Jeff (I am sure it's pretty easy) and as them to write a note? The also interwieved Cesarino Fava, together with Maurizio Giarolli, and later Ermanno Salvaterra. As far as I know, Marc did Maestri's route too.
Would be nice, rather than having a lot of people talking craps without ever having met Maestri, to get their opinion.

Beside that, I still have a decent climbing level and I am here to get anybody in any of Maestri's route that he soloed, just to get the feeling of what Maestri achieved solo (with boots, not climbing shoes).

Ciao,
E


PS: Note of fun. Whatever the French said, nobody in the world will agree with them.
WBraun

climber
Jan 25, 2012 - 11:42am PT
That's not genius, "let's imagine"

Anyone can mental speculate and then juggle words to make a fantasy in their fertile minds.

It didn't happen that way no matter how one spins it in their heads.

Get real .....
New Age II

climber
Jan 25, 2012 - 11:42am PT
@ Enzolino
Era meglio in italiano...va bè va bene uguale... :-))
It was better in Italian ... Well it is fine the same ..
TwistedCrank

climber
Ideeho-dee-do-dah-day boom-chicka-boom-chicka-boom
Jan 25, 2012 - 11:45am PT
I don't think anyone has ever questioned whether or not Cesare Maestri was a badass mofo.

It's his ethics and motivations - as well as his honesty - that have been called to question for over 50 years.


stefano607518

Trad climber
italy/austria/switzerland
Jan 25, 2012 - 11:49am PT
PS. thanks God foradaiball account has been deactivated....

sorry guys for this Italian bug.....keeping writing in italian when nobody could understand him

gretz form Europe
New Age II

climber
Jan 25, 2012 - 11:51am PT
There is the translator
nature

climber
Aridzona for now Denver.... here I come...
Jan 25, 2012 - 11:56am PT
I see loads of criticism to Maestri. But most misses the points that we are talking about 2 kids

They are not kids. though you are a prick for calling them that.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jan 25, 2012 - 12:00pm PT
The Google translation of Mariana Fava's letter

In response to the interview with the 4 climbers [Rolando Garibotti, Colin Haley, Jason Kruk, Hayden Kennedy] in The Austral Parakeet:
An act of this ilk do not have any defense, I also believe that absolutely absurd arguments were used and no basis for justification.
NOT IN ARGENTINA where requested visas, green card, passport of the community, letter of invitation from a relative, cash or credit card, work contract or permission to enter, it happens in countries like Australia, Canada, United States Spain, "where you'll probably get well," yes, once you get inside.
I also think that two people like you, who since coming to this town were well received, where many young people take them as referring climbing, aggression did not need the entire community free of El Chalten saying it has no right to say they "do not step on the mountain," that people usually spend a lot of respect grows in the mountains, even from the people, or that the reaction in defense of the act committed "surprises" or "borders on discrimination" (discrimination: Separating distinguish, differentiate. Give inferior treatment to an individual or community on racial, political, religious, etc.)..
In addition to amaze me that having fallen into squalor to defend an act of vandalism (vandalism inclination to destroy and devastate without consideration and respect for others) as performed on the path of the compressor using the victimization, it leaves me a certainty: are arrogant and poorly educated. It is no use to walk around town with satisfied smiles, as if they saved a life. They should feel ashamed.
I also wonder:
What if someone spray painted the picture of the Mona Lisa because she does not like your smile?
What if a tourist were to Chaltén see something that does not like and just delete it?
What if an Argentine positions take out nails for over 40 years of a wall in USA ????????
I think it would be better to preach examples of respect for the new scale, instead of giving examples of arrogance and inconsistency.
Living means to act consistently as we speak, think and talk like common sense and think with your heart if we want to get romantic, believe me it's worth.
I mean it's useless to pull out nails with one hand and pull with the other gas cylinders from the top.
Utopias should leave aside, because even though they believe that "the mountains are all" I regret to inform you that these are well ARGENTINAS.
Make no mistake to be well received is the same as being considered local.
And finally, before speaking of humility would make it.

No best regards,
Mariana Fava.
JLP

Social climber
The internet
Jan 25, 2012 - 12:02pm PT
The first ascent would have been done in 2012.
The route would have gone on aid, for sure, in the 70's or 80's, at the latest. Plenty nearby of similar character did.

However, most of these big free climbs require an aid line to follow and this route was no exception.

I agree in general with the argument of "Theft of the Future", but the bolt ladder really just robbed some aid climber of a bunch of piton placements.
Slakkey

Big Wall climber
From Back to Big Wall Baby
Jan 25, 2012 - 12:04pm PT
Age has nothing to do with this was Maestri any more wise at his age for putting the bolts up in the first place? I think not
nature

climber
Aridzona for now Denver.... here I come...
Jan 25, 2012 - 12:05pm PT
he can't: he says he's ben banned from SuperTopo...


whack-o-mole. classic.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Jan 25, 2012 - 12:06pm PT
At the heart of the David Lama piece (in Spanish) was the notion that . . .
"the question is more about destroying or not destroying."

What makes this tricky is that Kennedy and Kruk are being accused by some of destroying an abomination that according to Leo Dickenson and many others, then and now, consider to be a sacrilege and violent act of destruction on one of the most elegant and spectacular rocks formations on earth.

Of course, no authentic climber would call the compressor debacle a "route," whereby dozens of bolts bristle from the rock within inches of good cracks. This, simply put, is "scaffolding," as Leo said.

The thinking seems to be that the route was always there. Now it has been climbed, and the original desecration can be done away with. Good or bad - I cannot say and I do not know. But I do know that arguments that Kennedy or Kruk did not have the "right" to do so are totally irrelevant to the simply fact that they DID do it. The vanguard do not ask permission.

Once again, it's great theater either way.

JL
New Age II

climber
Jan 25, 2012 - 12:10pm PT
The vanguard do not ask permission. ???????
Also be stupid not have to ask...........
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Jan 25, 2012 - 12:13pm PT
I think Werner nicely put to words something I've been struggling to articulate:

Maestri's epics on the Torre represents a mad passion, an insanity, an intense romantic affair, it's a huge part of "LIFE"
played out on the grand scale, that's bigger than him, that's not stale, bland, and boiled down to just mere hardware.

Right or wrong in the eyes of us mere mortals we miss this so many times .....

I've understood this in my heart all along, even though I couldn't formulate the words to express it.

Climbing itself represents mad passion, an insanity and an intense romantic affair. Climbing is lots of other things too but these three qualities seem to resonate throughout the various sub disciplines of our way. And even those of us who may have quelled or even lost our mad passion, we see it in others and like a nice drink from a clear mountain spring, are invigorated by being in its presence. We climbers DIG madness, passion and romantic notions; we do.

The bolts on Maestri's way are chopped. What's done is done.

I am simply repeating something I've said about this very route, prior to the chop...

Celebrate the madness. Revel in the insanity of it all. Understand your own love of the sport is not a singularity, there are others always with you.

Slap that mad bastard on the back and get to your next pitch.

May the compressor remain hanging from is lofty perch of insanity for many years more. There's 50 years of madness hanging up there, please don't chop it out of some Taliban sense of propriety. The compressor is not yours to chop. It belongs to us all, as does the tale of Maestri and Kennedy and Kruk and Dickinson and lots of others too.

Celebrate the madness. CELEBRATE IT. We climbers are strengthened by the likes of Maestri and Crowley and a host of other mad fools who thought they could live forever.

DMT
Messages 721 - 740 of total 1905 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
Return to Forum List
Post a Reply
 
Our Guidebooks
Check 'em out!
SuperTopo Guidebooks


Try a free sample topo!

 
SuperTopo on the Web

Recent Trip Report and Articles
Recent Route Beta