Cerro Torre, A Mountain Consecrated - The Resurrection of th

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Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Jan 24, 2012 - 09:15am PT
That's right ... but as you tolerate multiple standards, I don't like fundamentalism and arrogance ...

Then you and I are good to go!

DMT
Melissa

Gym climber
berkeley, ca
Jan 24, 2012 - 09:20am PT
Funny you mention this enzolino... I once encountered an Italian party (of two guys) on Camp 6 who had out their pots and stove and were cooking up a meal.

They had hauled the most fabulous leather haul bag...the only one of its kind I've ever seen. They probably had great shoes too, but I didn't look. The bag was quite small, so they didn't bring any sleeping bags, just cooking gear. I think they spent two nights out. They were super nice, and having a great time.

Sorry for the aside, but if we're slinging stereotypes here, I thought this was a propos.
WBraun

climber
Jan 24, 2012 - 09:27am PT
Pizza eating Italians are going to chop the Nose bolt ladder.

LOL !!!!
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Jan 24, 2012 - 09:29am PT
with a nice american girl ... spending a romantic night on one of those beautiful ledges eating pazza and pizza and doing something else ... ;-)))

Those f*#king Italians again!

DMT
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jan 24, 2012 - 09:33am PT
and doing something else ... ;-

Eating Pie?
American Pie?
Melissa

Gym climber
berkeley, ca
Jan 24, 2012 - 09:33am PT
^^Zing! (re: DMT)
Kimbo

Sport climber
seattle
Jan 24, 2012 - 10:07am PT
The 2007 meet and "democratic vote" was little more than a farce. There was no democracy at work because few, if any, true "local climbers" were present.

why were only a "few, if any, true "local climbers"..." present?

was the meeting not publicized properly?

who were the 40 in attendance?

did some climbers choose not to attend the meeting?

did you or others try to get another meeting together?

why had you chosen not to remove the bolts in the past yourself?



Also, I wonder where were these "self appointed locals" in 2010 when Lama's film crew added a bunch of bolts to "their" "historic route"? I did not see them rioting outside of Lama crew's residence, or taking Heli Putz -the head rigger- to the police, and I certainly did not see them anywhere when two of us went to chop those bolts. Was this lack of involvement on their part some sort of selective "historic preservation" since the Lama bolts would have made the mountain even more accessible?

did anyone object to your removal of the bolts?

i'd surmise that the removal of a 40+ year old route would galvanize a stronger response than adding some bolts that were then removed....

The police played along with the mob and that is quite worrisome.

how many people in this "mob", and who were they?
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jan 24, 2012 - 10:17am PT
What do you all say to an ad-hoc SuperTopo poll?
A yea or nay, good or bad, cool or crap, A or B vote as a straw poll.
We could read the pulse of a slice of the climbing community that way.
Without all the inflamed passions that is.


Shall we vote?
WBraun

climber
Jan 24, 2012 - 10:21am PT
Polls are stupid, stale and bland.

Talking sh!t is where it at ......
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jan 24, 2012 - 10:23am PT
Feed Lot Frenzy!
Watch your step.





I wonder how Google will translate that into Italian?
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Jan 24, 2012 - 10:26am PT
What would the vote be about philo?

Is the route really chopped?

DMT
mucci

Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
Jan 24, 2012 - 10:35am PT
Sounds like K+K chopped just enuff bolts to make a sport climber say "Runnout" on his blog after the send.
WBraun

climber
Jan 24, 2012 - 10:37am PT
Here's some stupid sh!t talking, maybe even some resemblance of a faint reality?

It's all Bush and Cheney's fault. LOL

Those two dumb sh!ts started all these wars, aggressions and problems lately.

People when they get pissed now a days look at America as aggressive azzholes pushing their ideals onto everyone.

Stupid in a way but it still happens when other countries get pissed.

Most people still like Pizza and beer though .......
fattrad

Mountain climber
GOP Convention
Jan 24, 2012 - 10:40am PT
Werner,

Cheney would have free soloed the route.



The evil one
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jan 24, 2012 - 10:42am PT
Was the removal of 100+ likely redundant and unnecessary bolts from a decades old and often repeated route on the most iconoc mountain on earth at least for real climbers with historic significance as a symbol of Hubris Gone Wild a good thing or a bad thing?

No need for threats or lynch mobs.
A simple Yes or No will suffice.


Yes = good, the bolts are gone.

No = bad, they should have been left in place.
f˛radaiball

Social climber
italy
Jan 24, 2012 - 10:43am PT
What would the vote be about philo?

Is the route really chopped?


si potrebbe stabilire se i vandali devono ripristinare quanto hanno danneggiato, e che sanzione debbano pagare (ad esempio l'allontanamento dalla Patagonia per i prossimi 10 anni)

si potrebbe anche fare, perchŔ no ?
murf02

climber
NYC
Jan 24, 2012 - 10:56am PT
Threads about to go south very fast. I vote for a web cam at the local El Chalten brewery (happily contribute).
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Jan 24, 2012 - 10:57am PT
I dunno about chopping the Nose.

Apples and oranges.


If the Italians chop the Nose it could mean WAR!
(and we all know how successful they have been at that for the past century!)
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Jan 24, 2012 - 11:02am PT
You know the crazy thing about posting an idea on this thread is that most people won't even bother to read what you say, then comment as though they have.

I never said that I supported removing the bolts. I simply stated that what you or I have to say about the vanguard has no effect or bearing on the vanguard. None at all. They don't listen to us. And they probably never should, either.

Just as CM didn't ask for our opinion about machine gun bolting the Cerro with a gas powered machine, Kennedy and Co. didn't ask our permission, or the permission of locals, or the Holy Ghost, to "clean up" the mess of 40 years ago.

The rub to some is that a certain (VERY small) percentage of the population is going to operate entirely outside the system - and we simply have to lump it. The arguments, which are often thinly veiled hatred and jealousy, call the vanguard arrogant, selfish, reckless, self-ordained, and so forth, most of which is true in some sense - and also is required to march point, to run for president, to fly a gun ship in Iraq, etc.

Notice also how doomsdayers promise that if the vanguard's unlimited freedom is not checked, "authorities" will step in and forcibly control the vauguard (cutting our own freedoms in the process). Never happen, folks.
This is really just wishful thinking by those who cannot stomach the idea of anyone doing anything with total disregard to what others feel or believe is appropriate. Fact is, even if you gave every ranger in Patagonia an AK47, the vanguard is going to do just as it pleases. Arguments about this being right or wrong or that it must be stopped and that it should never be santioned and that I am extolling the "ethics" of bolt choppers (not true) is totally extraneous and irrelevant to the vanguard's path. The vanguard basically has nothing to do with us. They are a tribe unto themselves, for the time being. It is never sustainable.

Because the vanguard is always so small, their actions - both wildly insane and worthy of our praise - usually prompt sea changes in the existing order. Ergo Kennedy and Maestri are opposite ends of the same column of soldiers - and so long as they march right over us - as they always have - some people are going to feel violated - which is a natural enough emotion, but it will have no bearing whatsoever on the marching soldiers.

So it goes . . . The more we try to control and restrict, the more we try to impose a consensus, to be rational, to play fair, the more the opposite energies will exert themselves in the field of play - of that we may be sure.

JL
bhilden

Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
Jan 24, 2012 - 11:02am PT
Recently, upthread, Rolo asks where was the outrage when David Lama bolted Cerro Torre. I found these four threads on SuperTopo, note the number of postings in each thread. Given that info I think we gave David Lama a similar amount of attention as this current event.

http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/1388483/david-lama-and-cerro-torre-again (330 postings)

http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/1319502/Bolts-chopped-on-Cerro-Torre (170 postings)

http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/1181099/60-Bolts-drilled-on-Compressor-Route-in-Patagonia (120 postings)

http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/1320697/Please-contact-Red-Bull-regarding-Cerro-Torre-Travesty (30 postings)
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