Cerro Torre, A Mountain Consecrated - The Resurrection of th

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bhilden

Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
Jan 22, 2012 - 11:44pm PT
As to Largo's point about the leading edge climbers...

Does anyone else remember what happened to the bolt ladder on the Salathe after the first free ascent of the pitches to Heart Ledge (AKA Freeblast)? I seem to recall the ladder being chopped and one of the FFA team coming into Camp 4 with a necklace of bolt hangers.

I guess history does actually repeat itself.
Clint Cummins

Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
Jan 22, 2012 - 11:51pm PT
> nor remove them from the rap bolted route to the left "Shipoopi."

Um, no, Shipoopi was drilled on lead.
Is your mistake based on the fact that it has a lot of bolts, therefore you guessed it could not have been bolted on lead?

Also, I find the the following argument (by yourself and others) strange:
"Since the Maestri belay/rappel anchors were used, it was not a 'fair means' ascent."
You define 'fair means' as no bolts.

I define 'fair means' as: no full pitch bolt ladders, when there are traditional type alternatives.

Some type of fixed rappel anchors are needed on this climb.
It is used by many people as a descent and retreat route.
The Maestri belay/rappel anchors work fine for this.
The problem with Maestri's route was not the fixed belay/rappel anchors, but the 8 pitches of bolt ladders.
enzolino

climber
Galgenen, Switzerland
Jan 22, 2012 - 11:57pm PT
As to Largo's point about the leading edge climbers...

Does anyone else remember what happened to the bolt ladder on the Salathe after the first free ascent of the pitches to Heart Ledge (AKA Freeblast)? I seem to recall the ladder being chopped and one of the FFA team coming into Camp 4 with a necklace of bolt hangers.

I guess history does actually repeat itself.
Alright,
first point. He was an american in his country.
Second Point. Kennedy and Kruk did use Maestri Bolts for protection or for selays.
Third point. Then there would be no objection if somebody, argentinian, italian or whoever, who rappel from the Nose and chop the bolts, right?
Ceedy

climber
Cali.
Jan 22, 2012 - 11:59pm PT
My bad about Shipoopi... bad analogy I guess.... but I just heard Lama freed the route at spicy 8a without adding any bolts... Wow!
nopantsben

climber
Jan 23, 2012 - 12:01am PT
now if that's true, that is good style!! :)
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jan 23, 2012 - 12:02am PT
You mean NO More than the 60 new ones Lama's team already added?


So Steve are you saying that rather than taking one of the pretty girls to the prom you would rather have settled for re-raping the fat ugly chick because she is easy?

People get too hung up on climbs with name recognition. It is hard to brag to the folks back home about something they have never heard of.So "Joe the Plumbers" pay 60K to stand in a short rope conga line just so they can thump their chest at home. It just has to be Everest, 'cause you know. who ever heard of K2? Climbs with wide spread general public name recognition, or as I like to put it the "Jello Factor" (think gelatin not legend) while probably commercially beneficial are Climbing's worst nightmare. People don't drive from New Jersey to climb a bunch of great routes in the west. No they just have to do the 3rd Flatiron, Naked Edge, Casual Route, Cruise, Castleton, Nose, Denali. You name it, they will come. In great unwashed hoards they will come. Ignoring acres of stone they will like moths flap straight to the names. Thus the Fifty Crowded Climbs get quested into submission, flogged into insignificance and loved to death.

Clipping A1 bolt ladders up the headwall on Cerro Torre or clanging up the Chinese Ladder on Everest only indicates that your passage was guided by and facilitated by pre-placed protection requiring the excessive use of unnecessary artifice. You didn't climb it for your self.
So the easiest way to the hardest summit is gone and replaced with another not much harder but more organically linked to the mountain. The newer variant requires more real climbing than the A1 clip up of the Bolt Route and probably won't become a tat fest like it's predecessor. The new route will not be a ladder to the roof but a real climb for real climbers..

Shouldn't the attainment of great summits be a rite of passage rather than the right of a path.

The climbing community used to believe in doing and repeating routes in as good of or better style than those before you. You had to really step up to the task as their shoulders were so high off the ground. The aiml was always to remove as much artifice as possible and to work towards the purity of clean and free ascent. The community used to feel it was important to leave places better than you found them. Now it seems that denuded ground and disintegrating crash pads in the tundra is OK as long as I crush my proj brah. That David Lama and Red Bull would be seen as less a threat than the North American white trash bad boys is astounding to me. And shameful.

Same thing happens in the great ranges of the world.
The Quest for the 7 summits is a fine example of the tunnel vision many people have.
It is a fine quest, but once you set something for others to measure themselves against, even real macho life and death BS, look out all bets are off.
How fast is the Nose done in a day now?
James

climber
My twin brother's laundry room
Jan 23, 2012 - 12:05am PT
The rules of climbing are made by those who act.

Word from Chalten says that David Lama just free climbed Cerro Torre. The Redbull sponsored athlete didn't add any bolts (not sure about the exact details of the ascent as he tried the route the previous year). The climb goes at the modern moderate grade of 8a.

I'm not sure how I feel about the bolts removal. As a friend of Hayden, I'm pysched he did something. Action about a passionate issue is better than endless dialogue. Whether chopping the bolts is right or wrong, I could care less. It's the fact that he acted on his feelings that I'm most proud of.

Hopefully him and Kruk won't be arrested again.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jan 23, 2012 - 01:22am PT
This is how wars get started, and Jason and Hayden have undoubtedly fired the opening salvo in one of the most legendary bolt wars of all time

Just a clarification that if a bolt war does break out, it was Maestri - not Jason and Hayden - who fired the "opening salvo"...
f˛radaiball

Social climber
italy
Jan 23, 2012 - 01:45am PT
Just a clarification that if a bolt war does break out, it was Maestri - not Jason and Hayden - who fired the "opening salvo"...

se fosse successo 40 anni fa', e i badboys l'avessero ripetuta con gli stessi mezzi, avresti ragione

non ti sembra un po' troppo comodo dirlo ora ?

per dimostrare al mondo che nel '70 si poteva fare, il sig. Lama deve salirlo ora con i mezzi di allora, tutto il vestiario ed il materiale del '70

ci farebbe anche una bella figura, perchŔ non ci prova ?
Clint Cummins

Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
Jan 23, 2012 - 02:45am PT
if it happened 40 years ago ', and the badboys were repeated by the same means, you'd be right

does not look a bit 'too easy to say now?

to show the world that could be done in '70, Mr. Lama must now climb it means that time, all the clothing and the material of the 70s

We would also look good, why do not we try?

Poor argument.
Nobody is (rightfully) saying when they free climb a route that they are an inherently better climber than the person who aided it in the past.
Everything is conditional on equipment (and weather, icing, etc.).
All that a freed route means is that it can be free climbed with the equipment used and in the conditions experienced.

The SE Buttress could have been climbed without full pitch bolt ladders in the 1970s.
This is one point that I believe most of us agree on.

I do wonder what the ice conditions were at R10 when Maestri was there.
Was there a 10 ton ice block just above R10, like there was two years later for Leo Dickinson?
If so, maybe Maestri had the same problem reaching the arete of the 1968 route.
But I wonder if he could have bolted around the ice block instead of doing the 90m traverse.
Did he feel the arete might be blank?
Certainly he could see the chimney/crack system further right,
once he got to the initial arete on the right ("start of 90m traverse" photo).
And he could see that the chimney system was reachable by extending the traverse with the power bolting.
Or he may have planned in advance to reach the chimneys, from prior examination of photos.
The problem was that the power bolting changed the "time cost" of pitch location.
And there is a secondary problem of
"I brought this bolting equipment all the way up here; I might as well use it."
Many of us have experienced this (usually as added belay bolts).
If he was bolting by hand, I think he would have gone around the ice block and gone up the arete.


[Edit: I found the answer to this, right on Rolo's site]
"The bolt traverse was climbed in the winter when a big snow mushroom blocked passage on the ridge itself." http://www.pataclimb.com/climbingareas/chalten/torregroup/torre/SEridge.html
So the power drill (in the second attempt, Feb. 1971) was not a factor in choosing the 90m traverse; they established that traverse in June 1970 on their first attempt.


In the same way, the existence of bolt ladders change the "time cost" of pitch selection by subsequent parties, like Dickinson's.
"It will be faster / safer to use the ladder; it's already here, everybody uses it, ...."
That's why it is helpful for the ladders to be removed.
No more temptation to the dark side. :-)
f˛radaiball

Social climber
italy
Jan 23, 2012 - 04:20am PT
State continuando a spostare l'attenzione dal vero problema: perchŔ loro hanno deciso per tutti cosa Ŕ giusto o no? chi sono loro per farlo ? come mai qualcuno sta cercando di cancellare tutto quello che non gli piace ? mi ricorda quello che veniva fatto con le riserve indiane... come mai ?

Gli stessi discorsi che applichi per il Cerro Torre, valgono anche per le vie salite in U.S.A. da gente locale ? Se viene schiodata qualche via artificiale "storica", chiodata molti anni fa' da americani in Yosemite, che reazione avete ? Esultate e vi sentite liberati ? Sarebbe curioso se fosse cosý, ma almeno sareste coerenti
maze

Ice climber
Jan 23, 2012 - 05:17am PT
fordaibal, i think you are doing some mistakes, generalizing a single (for me, arrogant..) act of an american and a canadian guys whit all the US. it's irritating, and i'm italian.

Regards

ALPINEMAN

Trad climber
bogota
Jan 23, 2012 - 05:21am PT
so your nickname is better "labirinto"
f˛radaiball

Social climber
italy
Jan 23, 2012 - 05:42am PT
nei casi a cui ti riferisci, io sto rispondendo a vari forumisti che si dimostrano entusiasti della vendetta nei confronti di Maestri (es. Philo), pi¨ che essere soddisfatti per aver trasformato la via da artificiale a "libera" (cioŔ aver trasformato ci˛ che era estremo con i mezzi di allora, in estremo con i mezzi di adesso, ma impossibile anche oggi con i mezzi di allora)

salutoni

Bababata

Mountain climber
Utopia
Jan 23, 2012 - 05:50am PT
f˛radaiball, google translator is probably not the best way to communicate because you seem to be missing my point.

The Nose and Salathe were put up in an acceptable style at the time. The Compressor was put up in the worst possible style in its time, it was a disgrace and the climbing community seems to agree on this. You cannot compare the two.

Maestri chose to force his way up instead of retreating. He lowered the mountain to his level. How he got up didn't matter to him. It's an attitude the climbing community has been fighting for 4 decades (starting with Messner). It is an ethical issue, and a difficult one at that. Why not put up an escalator to the top? Where do we draw the line? One thing is clear - people seem to agree that Maestri did cross the line. So, that route should not have been there. Period.

It is a happy ending, people! A terrible injustice has been amended. We should all be rejoicing, not lamenting...

(The only reason to lament is if you were somehow personally invested in climbing that route, like Shipoopi. I understand why he is upset, but that's a very personal, dare i say selfish, reason. Steve, with your credentials, I'm sure you won't have any trouble climbing the "new" route. And you will have actually climbed the mountain, as opposed to climbing a ladder to the top. Go get the friggin' second ascent! ;)
f˛radaiball

Social climber
italy
Jan 23, 2012 - 06:07am PT
ma anche Maestri si Ŕ sentito oltraggiato da chi non ha creduto alla sua salita, ed Ŕ solo per questo che Ŕ tornato lÓ, ed Ŕ salito in quel modo

quindi non si discute sul perchŔ Ŕ stato fatto, ma se la via doveva restare o andava tolta

come tutti sappiamo, nel 2007 c'Ŕ stata un'apposita riunione, dove i diversi rappresentanti che si Ŕ ritenuto far decidere, hanno preso una decisione a maggioranza

ma chi era in minoranza si Ŕ arrogato la libertÓ di andare contro questa decisione

pi¨ o meno come quando chi perde le votazioni commette un colpo di stato per imporsi
Randisi

Boulder climber
Dalian, Liaoning
Jan 23, 2012 - 06:16am PT
[quote]I had to translate one of the english-speaker's posts : mauerhakenstreit

Some interesting stuff, there:

"One thing only do I know: that I stand just about alone in my opinions, and whenever I expressed something of them, the answer was always: 'Quite an ideal point of view, but a crazy notion.' "

quote from Paul Preuss


Are you going to poll a bunch of climbers/Argentinians/Argentinian climbers to decide what to do next?

Is there anyone who might want to have a look at what klk referenced?

http://www128.pair.com/r3d4k7/MauerhakenstreitCompleteIllustrated.pdf[/quote]


MH2, who could possibly care about what some climber from a hundred years ago has to say?

What possible relevance could it have?

Good lord, and a kraut too!

(Any resemblance between my screen name and the translator's name is...)
BlackSpider

Ice climber
Jan 23, 2012 - 06:37am PT
Steve Schneider:

As someone who has put in a lot of time on the Compressor route I think your personal views are very valid and can completely understand why something like this would upset you. That being said, I would say that no one is forcing you to climb the west face or any other route on the mountain. The Compressor Route, in the sense of the line up the rock, is still there; it's not like holds were chipped or erased from the rock itself. A climber with your talent and experience shouldn't have much trouble either drilling new bolts (there's already starter holes to use! :) ) or using bathooks/batheads in the holes to get up the line. And I fully support your right (or anyone else's) to climb that line and put in whatever protection you think is necessary. Somehow, I doubt you would place 400 bolts.

Really, to me the shame of the Compressor Route is that it's a line that seemingly has so much more to do with the protection than it does with the climbing, and least based on how it's discussed in the public sphere. Maybe this Lama free climb (if confirmed, and after details emerge) will help change that.
Randisi

Boulder climber
Dalian, Liaoning
Jan 23, 2012 - 06:53am PT
Looks like it was free climbed.

http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item.php?id=66230

http://www.planetmountain.com/english/News/shownews1.lasso?l=2&keyid=39061#
BeeTee

Social climber
Valdez Alaska
Jan 23, 2012 - 07:08am PT
So some young hotshots come long forty years later and chop a historic route.. how sanctimonious we climbers are ....

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