Cerro Torre, A Mountain Consecrated - The Resurrection of th

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BlackSpider

Ice climber
Jan 23, 2012 - 02:43pm PT
@llkk:

"First respect for the older generation"

Interesting. Of that "older generation", we've heard that two major players from that time period - Carlos Comesana and Reinhold Messner (via Cedar Wright's comments) - who agree wholeheartedly with chopping the bolts.

"Second this 2 americans are f*#king arrogant as well

I think you all that agree with the fact of cleaning the route dont know shit!"

Considering you don't know the difference between an American and a Canadian, I don't think you should be telling others they "dont know shit!".
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jan 23, 2012 - 02:45pm PT
No I don't agree. Many of us know a great deal of the history of Cerro Torre. That is why some are ashamed of Maestri's rape. He was one of the greatest climber's of his time and he pissed it all away on Cerro Torre.

If you feel so strongly that Kruk and Kennedy had no right to clean up Maestri's mess then I would likewise say that Maestri had no right to do what he did in the first place.
The Larry

climber
Moab, UT
Jan 23, 2012 - 02:46pm PT
Did somebody just fart?
WBraun

climber
Jan 23, 2012 - 02:49pm PT
The Nose bolts won't get chopped.

It's not even the same.

Lynn didn't chop them because she has good brain to begin with.

Stupid argument trying to use the Nose on El Cap for this Cerro Tore thing.

People are stupid ......
Slabby D

Trad climber
B'ham WA
Jan 23, 2012 - 02:56pm PT
The Grand Wall in Squamish British Columbia might be a more fitting analogy then, even more so considering its the home town of Jason Kruk.

A megaclassic trad climb up the center of one of the most beautiful granite walls in North America. Originally climbed using many, many bolts over a very long period of time. Now convenience bolt anchors on every pitch. Two bolt ladders, one quite extensive, that can be avoided by free climbing with significantly fewer bolts. All that followed up by a heavily bolted wide crack undercling.

If a crack Italian team showed up in Squamish, climbed the free the route, then chose to chop all the bolts they didn't use because they considered them unneccesary and offensive well it seens that Kruk and Kennedy would have just created the precedent to do so.


Ultimately every new route is a creative process. Whether it include a heavy handed bolt ladder on the headwall by Maestri or whether it be the Kruk-Kennedy route that used on 5 lead bolts and ??25-50-100?? belay bolts.

Chopping a route is a destructive process no matter how you cut it. If your going to take that path you better be both damn sure of yourself as well as incredibly consistent in your actions to avoid looking like a hypocrite and a fool. It seens that the great climbers tended to have enough wisdom to realise this even if they didn't neccesarily agree with the actions and impact of others.

Jason doesn't need or deserve the collective guilt of modern Squamish bolting practices hung around his neck. But damn there are enough squeeze jobs, bolted cracks and unnecesary bolt ladders there to keep a lad busy for a good long while.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jan 23, 2012 - 02:58pm PT
Cesare Maestri, Jason Kruk and Hayden Kennedy WANTED dead or alive :)

That is NOT even slightly funny!
BlackSpider

Ice climber
Jan 23, 2012 - 02:59pm PT
Fine, let's see them actually do that rather than just threaten it in this thread. And I suspect all the bolts would just get replaced in short order (as anyone with the inclination is more than welcome to do on Cerro Torre).

Also, with respect to any "if you haven't climbed it then why are you talking about it?" posts: I guess there's a lot of posts that should be deleted from the Wings Of Steel threads then, by that standard.
Kimbo

Sport climber
seattle
Jan 23, 2012 - 03:02pm PT
@ philo:

If you feel so strongly that Kruk and Kennedy had no right to clean up Maestri's mess then I would likewise say that Maestri had no right to do what he did in the first place.

i can completely respect your above opinion, and anyone's opinion on this matter, but do you agree with the way the removal was done?

you have been quite vocal on this thread, but i haven't seen you respond to posts regarding the '07 meeting and its near-consensus inre the bolts....
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Jan 23, 2012 - 03:02pm PT
Chop the bolts in Squamish in the Sword and Perry's Layback...


ARG... NOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!

chop anything you want just have mercy on Perry's Lie back!
TwistedCrank

climber
Ideeho-dee-do-dah-day boom-chicka-boom-chicka-boom
Jan 23, 2012 - 03:04pm PT
Give it a rest, Phil.
Bababata

Mountain climber
Utopia
Jan 23, 2012 - 03:07pm PT
@ Kimbo:

you have been quite vocal on this thread, but i haven't seen you respond to posts regarding the '07 meeting and its near-consensus inre the bolts....

How is it that forty random foreigners residing in El Chalten suddenly represent all of us? Locals were not included because they don't know what a bolt is, neither were park rangers, let alone for ordinary climbers across the world... Shouldn't a democratic vote include everyone? Or do those select 40 represent only the people that want to climb Cerro Torre? Or the people that "think" they can climb Cerro Torre?

I don't see anything democratic about this - please enlighten me.
Lovegasoline

Trad climber
Sh#t Hole, Brooklyn, NY
Jan 23, 2012 - 03:19pm PT
Largo on K&K's chopping:
This is a great thing because it separates out the doers from the speculators and gives people a chance to rag on American aggression.



OCCUPY CERRO TORRE!
Kimbo

Sport climber
seattle
Jan 23, 2012 - 03:22pm PT
How is it that forty random foreigners residing in El Chalten suddenly represent all of us? Locals were not included because they don't know what a bolt is, neither were park rangers, let alone for ordinary climbers across the world... Shouldn't a democratic vote include everyone? Or do those select 40 represent only the people that want to climb Cerro Torre? Or the people that "think" they can climb Cerro Torre?

I don't see anything democratic about this - please enlighten me.

I never did claim the '07 meeting to represent "all of us", but at least it was an attempt to deal with the situation in a consensus-building way, correct?

which is a lot more than the current approach incorporated, correct?
MMCC

climber
New Zealand
Jan 23, 2012 - 03:23pm PT
How about this then?

http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item.php?id=66230

edit. der, sorry, somewhat redundant post. Move along..
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jan 23, 2012 - 03:27pm PT
Old news already.


Now that it is a done deal let us take an international poll.
Surely more than 40 people have an opinion.
You all might be surprised at how many applaud the removal of Maestri's folly.
Gene

climber
Jan 23, 2012 - 03:27pm PT
How's this for irony?

Patagonia™ Climbing Ambassador Hayden Kennedy

g
The Larry

climber
Moab, UT
Jan 23, 2012 - 03:36pm PT
It's not like he climbed Delicate Arch.
TwistedCrank

climber
Ideeho-dee-do-dah-day boom-chicka-boom-chicka-boom
Jan 23, 2012 - 03:38pm PT
It's not like he climbed Delicate Arch.

Otherwise he would have to resign himself to being a spokesmodel on Italian television for slacklining.
Bababata

Mountain climber
Utopia
Jan 23, 2012 - 03:43pm PT
@ Kimbo

I never did claim the '07 meeting to represent "all of us", but at least it was an attempt to deal with the situation in a consensus-building way, correct?

which is a lot more than the current approach incorporated, correct?

Not really - there are a lot more people involved here and this website is a much better opportunity to build a consensus. Perhaps we should start with an online poll?
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Jan 23, 2012 - 03:57pm PT
there are a lot more people involved here and this website is a much better opportunity to build a consensus.

I really wouldn't want to associate with any group of people that would include me as a member!

DMT
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