Cerro Torre, A Mountain Consecrated - The Resurrection of th


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Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jan 23, 2012 - 01:55pm PT

Can anyone translate this?

Trad climber
Sh#t Hole, Brooklyn, NY
Jan 23, 2012 - 01:55pm PT
Arnold Ziffel's* actions can shed some valuable insight into the Compressor Route.

Examining for a moment the analogy between the erasure of the Compressor Route and the erasure of the Nose on EL Cap (by Italians!), I think the analogy is a valid one.

Harding's ascent was a prolonged siege with a variety of excesses (Home Depot ascent with shopping - 'er Dolt - Cart?) that stretched for many many months and which became for the NPS a kind of vertical circus, so much so that the NPS asked Harding to suspend his shenanigans until after the busy tourist season concluded. Such tactics were not at the ethical vanguard of their time.

Despite any ethical shortcomings that can be directed at the FA tactics of the Nose, it does have character, charm, and personality. I assume the Compressor route, does (did) too, at least for a constituency of climbers. Harding too had personality and charm ... personality and charm go a long way.

From Pulp Fiction:

Vincent: Want some bacon?
Jules: No, man. I don't eat pork.
Vincent: Are you Jewish?
Jules: Nah, I ain't Jewish, I just don't dig on swine, that's all.
Vincent: Why not?
Jules: Pigs are filthy animals. I don't eat filthy animals.
Vincent: Yeah, but bacon tastes good. Pork chops taste good.
Jules: Hey, sewer rat may taste like pumpkin pie, but I'd never know 'cause I wouldn't eat the filthy motherf*#ker. Pigs sleep and root in sh#t. That's a filthy animal. I ain't eatin' nothing that ain't got sense enough to disregard its own feces.
Vincent: How about a dog? Dog eats its own feces.
Jules: I don't eat dog either.
Vincent: Yeah, but do you consider a dog to be a filthy animal?
Jules: I wouldn't go so far as to call a dog filthy, but they're definitely dirty. But, a dog's got personality. Personality goes a long way.
Vincent: Ah, so by that rationale, if a pig had a better personality, he would cease to be a filthy animal. Is that true?
Jules: Well, we'd have to be talkin' about one charming motherf*#king pig. I mean, he'd have to be ten times more charming than that Arnold on Green Acres, you know what I'm saying?
Vincent: [laughing] That's good.


*Arnold Ziffel was a pig featured in Green Acres, an American situation comedy that was produced by Filmways, Inc., and originally aired on the CBS network from 1965 to 1971. Arnold could do pretty much anything he wanted. He was very talented. He could write his name, change the channels on the television, and play the piano. He was an accomplished abstract painter (dubbed "Porky Picasso"), whose work, such as "Nude at a Filling Station," was banned. Arnold also attended school, carrying his lunchbox in his mouth, where he often played practical jokes on the other students. He was once drafted into the U.S. Army and even worked as a "paper pig" delivering newspapers, although he had a bad habit of throwing copies so hard and so badly aimed that he sometimes broke residential windows doing it.

Jan 23, 2012 - 02:02pm PT
Dave's KKK term gains momentum:

Earlier this week the team of Hayden Kennedy and Jason Kruk chopped the historically significant and controversial Compressor Route on Cerro Torre leading some climbers to characterize the situation as the Kennedy-Kruk-Kontroversy (KKK). While few climbers believe that Cesare Maestiís Compressor route embodies the current ideals for alpine climbing, most were reticent about erasing the route. The reaction in the climbing community is understandably divided. The anti-bolt fans whose position has been fuelled for years by Rolando Garibottiís chopping campaign are positive, but others are concerned about the seemingly cavalier attitude of ignoring the historical significance of the climb and the results of a 2007 vote held in the nearby town of El Chalten that concluded the route should not be chopped.

Many have said that Kennedy and Kruk didnít have the right to remove such a historically significant route without wider consultation - especially since many of the locals feel the route should stay. Some argue that Kennedy and Kruk have not climbed the full Compressor Route but rather a more logical variation where they used four bolts placed by other parties and one placed by Kruk last year during his attempt on the wall. Reports also suggest that the team used the bolted belays from Maestriís route.

Reports also suggest that when Kennedy and Kruk got back to camp they were confronted by a group of local climbers demanding an explanation for their actions. During this time the police arrived and confiscated the chopped bolts and took them to the police station to take a statement.


Trad climber
Jan 23, 2012 - 02:05pm PT
Affirmative Bruce.
Philo, use Google translating, and then just copy and paste.
In reference to your earlier comment, I think sometimes conditions dictate otherwise when you're in the mountains, and I beg to differ with you that he didn't do the route if he climbed all the way to the summit mushroom. He didn't summit perhaps but he did the route. but whatever, it doesn't matter. What does matter is many people should have had a voice in this. Thats all.
Now as a climbing community we have to move on to where it goes next.

Trad climber
Jan 23, 2012 - 02:19pm PT
no only the harding slot....you should try it....foradaiball you are a great dickhead

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jan 23, 2012 - 02:23pm PT
Hanging in stirrups clipping up a bolt ladder placed in horrible style by someone else when a perfectly good real climb exists is stupid. Going that way simply because it is there and been done before is equally stupid. Claiming glory for not summiting is pathetic. If you can't do it without dragging it down to your level you shouldn't be there.

Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
Jan 23, 2012 - 02:25pm PT
Have you climbed Cerro Torre Philo?

Sport climber
Jan 23, 2012 - 02:35pm PT
Pay homage? Where did you get that? I repeatedly have said, "for better or for worse," that right or wrong was not my issue here.

ok my misunderstanding of where your personal sentiments lie.

My point is that "they took it upon themselves," to use your phrase. This is the "direct action" I spoke about and to which the vanguard had always practiced." All the yammering and judgments after the fact are perhaps important in a general, policy-defining kind of way, but the vangard is not expected to define their intentions through other's opinions, which are none of their business. That's just the way they roll, and we're powerless over that.

i think you may be misunderstanding the term "vanguard"....

regardless, i would argue that the two "boys" absolutely did "define their intentions through other's opinions", simply because it's rather impossible for us humanoids to live in a vacuum: undoubtedly they had massive exposure to various arguments related to the compressor route, and chose between competing factions as a model for their actions (ok ok we certainly get into deeper theoretical ideas regarding human "creativity", but i'll leave it at that).

"the vanguard" is not an amoral abstraction, as you seem to imply. "the vanguard" is composed of individual humanoids, "responsible" for their own actions and the consequences of their actions. sometimes humanoids succeed in carrying out actions which are accepted or not; at other times they do not succeed in carrying out those actions (meaning: "we" are not "powerless over that".

Another thing is that the vaugard, if authentic, always pushes the bar up - not sideways or down.

that's a rather moralistic view of the (amoral) "vanguard", eh? and, if even theoretically accurate, certainly not applicable to the two climbers in question: the two climbers climbed a friggin' 5.11 A2 via A DIFFERENT LINE, and then removed bolts from a climb they DIDN'T DO!

there was no "bar" being pushed upwards. they did nothing revolutionary in terms of difficulty or style. all they did was climb a moderately difficult new line and remove some old bolts from an old line.

"vanguard"? more accurately "rear-guard": protectors of an old-skool ethicism which completely ignored more modern context and prevailing sentiment.

Trad climber
Jan 23, 2012 - 02:37pm PT
Philo: re translation, I did translate the meat of the intereview a while back (when text was first posted). Back around post 265...

Social climber
Jan 23, 2012 - 02:38pm PT
You don't have to have climbed or summitted something to have an opinion about it. There's no exclusivity to opinions in regards to individual summits or routes.

This is a great thread that has not yet reached it's tipping point into name calling ( although one poster above is dickheading in that direction )

THis is a FABULOUS thread and IMHO it is EXACTLY what an internet forum is for.

Carry on!!!!!

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jan 23, 2012 - 02:38pm PT
No and I probably never will now. But when I was young and driven 13 surgeries ago Cerro Torre was at the top of my list. And not via the Bolt Route. I was actively planning for a trip there in 80 or 81 but having my lip split by my own foot when my knee was violently hyper-extended pretty much changed my plans for ever. Cerro Torre was and is still the most enigmatic symbol of the purity of great alpinism and the taint of overbearing ego. It matters to me "because it's there".

Trad climber
Jan 23, 2012 - 02:39pm PT
Cesare Maestri, Jason Kruk and Hayden Kennedy WANTED dead or alive :)

Two people are on the way to the Nose to chop Harding bolts...(right, Lynn hill free it in 92) , so you mediocres climbers can not climb the nose ever again!!
Also, Take out few via ferratas in the Dolomites
Chop the bolts in Squamish in the Sword and Perry's Layback...
C'mon !! Human stupidity does not have limits!!

I totally disagree with Rolo, Hayden Kennedy and Jason Kruk
and feel ashame for the people who are happy for the chopped bolts without knowing sh#t of history

The 2 idiots, in their cleanest ascent still need to use the rappells of Maestri
I dont like Maestris way, but why if entire Chalten community agreed in keeping the bolts as a historic ascent or whatever
why this 2 20/30 year old kids have to come and take bolts out, who the hell are they?
With 5.10 shoes, nice booties, arriving in aeroplane few hs from the plane, reading the forecast!!
f*#k them

give me a break,
First respect for the older generation
Second this 2 americans are f*#king arrogant as well

I think you all that agree with the fact of cleaning the route dont know shit!


Ice climber
Jan 23, 2012 - 02:43pm PT

"First respect for the older generation"

Interesting. Of that "older generation", we've heard that two major players from that time period - Carlos Comesana and Reinhold Messner (via Cedar Wright's comments) - who agree wholeheartedly with chopping the bolts.

"Second this 2 americans are f*#king arrogant as well

I think you all that agree with the fact of cleaning the route dont know shit!"

Considering you don't know the difference between an American and a Canadian, I don't think you should be telling others they "dont know shit!".

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jan 23, 2012 - 02:45pm PT
No I don't agree. Many of us know a great deal of the history of Cerro Torre. That is why some are ashamed of Maestri's rape. He was one of the greatest climber's of his time and he pissed it all away on Cerro Torre.

If you feel so strongly that Kruk and Kennedy had no right to clean up Maestri's mess then I would likewise say that Maestri had no right to do what he did in the first place.
The Larry

Moab, UT
Jan 23, 2012 - 02:46pm PT
Did somebody just fart?

Jan 23, 2012 - 02:49pm PT
The Nose bolts won't get chopped.

It's not even the same.

Lynn didn't chop them because she has good brain to begin with.

Stupid argument trying to use the Nose on El Cap for this Cerro Tore thing.

People are stupid ......
Slabby D

Trad climber
B'ham WA
Jan 23, 2012 - 02:56pm PT
The Grand Wall in Squamish British Columbia might be a more fitting analogy then, even more so considering its the home town of Jason Kruk.

A megaclassic trad climb up the center of one of the most beautiful granite walls in North America. Originally climbed using many, many bolts over a very long period of time. Now convenience bolt anchors on every pitch. Two bolt ladders, one quite extensive, that can be avoided by free climbing with significantly fewer bolts. All that followed up by a heavily bolted wide crack undercling.

If a crack Italian team showed up in Squamish, climbed the free the route, then chose to chop all the bolts they didn't use because they considered them unneccesary and offensive well it seens that Kruk and Kennedy would have just created the precedent to do so.

Ultimately every new route is a creative process. Whether it include a heavy handed bolt ladder on the headwall by Maestri or whether it be the Kruk-Kennedy route that used on 5 lead bolts and ??25-50-100?? belay bolts.

Chopping a route is a destructive process no matter how you cut it. If your going to take that path you better be both damn sure of yourself as well as incredibly consistent in your actions to avoid looking like a hypocrite and a fool. It seens that the great climbers tended to have enough wisdom to realise this even if they didn't neccesarily agree with the actions and impact of others.

Jason doesn't need or deserve the collective guilt of modern Squamish bolting practices hung around his neck. But damn there are enough squeeze jobs, bolted cracks and unnecesary bolt ladders there to keep a lad busy for a good long while.

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jan 23, 2012 - 02:58pm PT
Cesare Maestri, Jason Kruk and Hayden Kennedy WANTED dead or alive :)

That is NOT even slightly funny!

Ice climber
Jan 23, 2012 - 02:59pm PT
Fine, let's see them actually do that rather than just threaten it in this thread. And I suspect all the bolts would just get replaced in short order (as anyone with the inclination is more than welcome to do on Cerro Torre).

Also, with respect to any "if you haven't climbed it then why are you talking about it?" posts: I guess there's a lot of posts that should be deleted from the Wings Of Steel threads then, by that standard.

Sport climber
Jan 23, 2012 - 03:02pm PT
@ philo:

If you feel so strongly that Kruk and Kennedy had no right to clean up Maestri's mess then I would likewise say that Maestri had no right to do what he did in the first place.

i can completely respect your above opinion, and anyone's opinion on this matter, but do you agree with the way the removal was done?

you have been quite vocal on this thread, but i haven't seen you respond to posts regarding the '07 meeting and its near-consensus inre the bolts....
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