Discussion Topic |
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caughtinside
Social climber
Davis, CA
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Dec 19, 2011 - 02:23pm PT
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Low T?
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monolith
climber
berzerkly
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Dec 19, 2011 - 02:25pm PT
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Don't forget to get your calories in. Vegan food can be less calorie dense, particularly if you don't go for grains like pasta.
As for testosterone, my last test was 760, all natural, no T shots. Very high, and I've been vegan for about 15 years.
Also, stay low fat, don't eat a lot of the fatty overts like oil, avocado, nuts.
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zip
Trad climber
pacific beach, ca
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Dec 19, 2011 - 02:26pm PT
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congrats!
I've been a Vagiterian for years, but it doesn't really make much of a difference in my weight.
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Russ Walling
Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
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Dec 19, 2011 - 02:26pm PT
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6 days, down 10 pounds.... yer body is dying. Try a pullup in 12 more days and then go get a burger.
Vegans are always light in the sac.... low T is the big problem with the nuts and berries gang. Look at them Eldo Prancers. Not a strong nut_sac swimmer amongst the lot of them.
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monolith
climber
berzerkly
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Dec 19, 2011 - 02:28pm PT
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Cool, it's the protein myth and the ya gotta eat meat for testosterone myth.
Get enough calories, and you get enough protein.
As for T, see my post above and I don't eat hardly any nuts, berries.
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Russ Walling
Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
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Dec 19, 2011 - 02:32pm PT
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The Prancers eat tons of ChinNuts™ and they are still on the low end of T. Go figure....
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Dec 19, 2011 - 02:33pm PT
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Very cool good luck!
The way that can be known is not the way.
Hey russ up for a pullup pull off with a 28 year "veggie" vet?
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Russ Walling
Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
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Dec 19, 2011 - 02:34pm PT
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Sorry Jay, you are not Vegan. Seen you pound pescado. Fake veggies are a dime a dozen, and retain their strength.
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Gary
climber
That Long Black Cloud Is Coming Down
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Dec 19, 2011 - 02:35pm PT
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You want to have a pull off with Russ? Ewwwwww....
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
-A community of hairless apes
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Dec 19, 2011 - 03:01pm PT
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FYI,
The new testosterone range as of Oct 2011 is 348 - 1197. (It's no longer 193 - 740.)
I've been trying Vit T for six months now. Current number is 1050 and, sure enough, feels like my soul is sporting a new body machine.
How do you like them apples? ;)
Also doing the Vegan thing M-S, Sun off. I like it. I was inspired by a netflix documentary on over-eating meats and diary products. Also highly recommnend a statin as a preventive if it's right for you.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Dec 19, 2011 - 03:06pm PT
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That's a good start, Fatty. She has potential. I used to be only able to do 31 too, when I was her age...
should have known you wouldn't overlook that fact Fish...
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
-A community of hairless apes
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Dec 19, 2011 - 03:08pm PT
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Once the cells of the brain are exposed to the effects of testosterone, that effect can never be completely eradicated and the organism can never truly cease to "think like" a male animal of its species.
Don't tell this to religious people though, might cause them to question their beliefs about how they work. ;)
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
-A community of hairless apes
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Dec 19, 2011 - 03:10pm PT
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How do you take your Vit T, Fructose?
A big ol 18g needle, no wimp here. :)
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Dec 19, 2011 - 03:11pm PT
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Yo sis, while you're here, does a vesectomy have that same affect as castration in the low-T regard? Hypothetically speaking, of course....
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
-A community of hairless apes
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Dec 19, 2011 - 03:14pm PT
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See my earlier post on eeking out one's last days in a nursing home, you'll see where I'm coming from.
What next, don't climb either? ;)
.....
Life's full of tradeoffs. As I know you know.
Your approach will reek havoc
perhaps a little over the top, but I get your hyperbole.
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Dec 19, 2011 - 03:14pm PT
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You're in good company:
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Dec 19, 2011 - 03:17pm PT
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Doesn't living in colorado lower your T to begin with? Or is it just that low-t types are drawn there?
Thanks Lois, field results seem to back that up, but I always wondered....
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
-A community of hairless apes
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Dec 19, 2011 - 03:18pm PT
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we evolved a given way for a reason
you turn me on when you talk like this (I'm an evolutionist), where are you (regionally) and what are you doing Sat night? busy?
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G_Gnome
Trad climber
In the mountains... somewhere...
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Dec 19, 2011 - 03:19pm PT
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Man I am of the same opinion - Sroke that T as high as I can and live the good life and to hell with the nursing home. If I can live good and die of a massive heart attach a few years early, that sounds like a great trade off!
I love those people who live on fish but insist they are vegetarians. HA!
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Dec 19, 2011 - 03:21pm PT
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Who are those people g nome? I've heard that accusation from defensive carnivores, but never found an actually refrent.
Who "lives on fish"? Who "insists they are a vegiterian"?
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
-A community of hairless apes
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Dec 19, 2011 - 03:24pm PT
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That's right!
die of a massive heart attack a few years early...
on a lead climb all pumpy... or or a scuba dive spear fishin... or topping out on a high summit...
definitely the preferred route.
...to each their own though.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
-A community of hairless apes
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Dec 19, 2011 - 03:29pm PT
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LEB,
With all due respect, I don't think you've had more biochemistry or physiology or general biology than me. So thanks for your input but I've weighed the risks and am satisfied with the looks of things.
Nor did I say my value is always at the 1050 number. As I'm sure you know it varies considerably as a function of many variables.
Again, thanks for your input.
.....
EDIT
And perhaps you missed the point about the nursing home.
Given MY personality type, a nursing home is not in the cards, not this way or that way or any way. But again that's just me.
Later...
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Russ Walling
Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
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Dec 19, 2011 - 03:29pm PT
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LEB writes: The rest of the ejaculate is present and exits from the tip of the penis in the normal way. Typically, one never misses the sperm which remain behind.
I've been told by more than one shank sampling Vegan, the taste is different. Think of it in a coffee with no cream sort of way... Tea without sugar.... McNuggets with no dippers. The survey says something is indeed "missed", and not for the better. YMMV.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Dec 19, 2011 - 03:35pm PT
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Is this what's known as 'thread drip'?
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Murzerker
Social climber
Land of Goats and Tacos
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Dec 19, 2011 - 03:38pm PT
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Eat lots of Celery and Cucumber, that will keep em' comin' back for more.
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Prod
Trad climber
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Dec 19, 2011 - 03:46pm PT
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Calories out needs to be greater than calories in, if you want to lose weight. Try to eat a ballanced diet, whatever that means. You'll figure it out. Splurge every now and again. Exercise, rest, and enjoy life.
If you really want to feel good Riley, you need a pleasure coach.
[youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=x2pGTFJmMVc]
Prod.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Dec 19, 2011 - 03:52pm PT
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Too funny! Now that one needs substantiation, fleshing out, so to speak....
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Russ Walling
Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
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Dec 19, 2011 - 03:52pm PT
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Perhaps so BUT maybe their female partners prefer less "taste" than pregnancy.
One word: Retirement Community
If a man loses his family for any reason and wishes to start over then a vasectomy might close this option for him. Who can predict what life holds in store for us.
Five words: Fridge in garage with a full ice cube tray, on battery backup. I've only lost a couple of cubes to drunks trying to freshen up their cocktails.
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Murzerker
Social climber
Land of Goats and Tacos
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Dec 19, 2011 - 04:04pm PT
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I've only lost a couple of cubes to drunks trying to freshen up their cocktails.
Adds new meaning to a "Dirty Martini"...
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Dec 19, 2011 - 04:08pm PT
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Murzerker, I think the correct name is 'White Russ-ian'.
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Murzerker
Social climber
Land of Goats and Tacos
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Dec 19, 2011 - 04:09pm PT
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^^^ +1 Lulz
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Dec 19, 2011 - 04:36pm PT
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I've been veg for 22 years.
My advice: Avoid or at least minimize the word vegan on your FB statuses to avoid being the annoying born again vegan. A few of y'all are always like "Jack just ate some vegan cookies." And, "Janie just has the BEST vegan pie." Etc.
My other advice: Food that is pretending to be something else is usually gross. Just go with what is good in its own right.
The gassiness will go away after a year or two. LOL.
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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Dec 19, 2011 - 04:42pm PT
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You should eat only tofurkey and wheat grass.
Seriously though, good luck man.
It cracks me up how this briefly turned into a BJ/semen thread.
Whatever you choose do do Riley, you will own.
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steelmnkey
climber
Vision man...ya gotta have vision...
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Dec 19, 2011 - 04:46pm PT
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Dec 19, 2011 - 04:49pm PT
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Aside from the B12 issue, how do these effeminate metrohippyuals get a good/adequate source of long chain Omega 3s?
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Dos XX
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Dec 19, 2011 - 05:04pm PT
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Good on ya, Riley. Your body will help you figure out what adjustments to make, if any. The most important thing is that lightness you're already feeling.
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monolith
climber
berzerkly
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Dec 19, 2011 - 05:05pm PT
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Easy ElCap, EFA's are in a lot of vegan foods. If you really want to balance the omega 3's to 6's, then you can adjust with flax and/or hemp seeds added to a salad. And the body manufactures the cholesterol it needs and the long-chain fatty acids from the EFA's.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 19, 2011 - 05:11pm PT
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I eat one carrot and one celery and then fly.
Just see the meat eater still stuck to the ground .....
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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Dec 19, 2011 - 05:16pm PT
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No, he eats only one.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Dec 19, 2011 - 05:57pm PT
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LEB,
They still "think like" tom cats only to a (much) lesser degree. Some of them are still quite territorial and continue even to spray.
thats Russ' whole point about eldo-prancers! lots of spray!
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Willoughby
Social climber
Truckee, CA
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Dec 19, 2011 - 06:04pm PT
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Tami just said she'd eat a big one.
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Dec 19, 2011 - 06:10pm PT
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Easy ElCap, EFA's are in a lot of vegan foods. If you really want to balance the omega 3's to 6's, then you can adjust with flax and/or hemp seeds added to a salad
Not that simple really. The plant sources (aside from maybe algae extracts) aren't long-form...as in EPA/DHA, they are ALAs. And while yes you can convert ALAs to long-chain, the conversion isn't very efficient. So sprinking flax on your salad isn't really going to cut it (btw, do you grind your flax seeds? you should.). Sure, you'll get sufficient EFAs to survive, but nowhere near an ideal amount to thrive.
Eat how you want, it's your body, I don't have an agenda...other than keeping the prancing metrosexual skeletal bendy shakti ommmmmmm ommmmm soyfu latte drinking fru fru crowd from getting malnutrition...after all I might need one of them around someday, those titty-dragging 5.6 slabs don't lead themselves you know!
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monolith
climber
berzerkly
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Dec 19, 2011 - 06:21pm PT
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I don't use much flax or hemp. I only mentioned it because some are concerened about the omega 3 to 6 ratio. Plenty of sources of efa's in vegan foods. 15 vegan years of high quality health and athleticism proves it for me.
Many vegan athletes thrive.
If you want to eat animals that make long-chains just like we do, fine. That's like making a house by using the parts from a torn down house.
The longer chains are assembled into triglycerides during digestion anyway.
You still scared of fiber?
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Matt
Trad climber
it's all turtles, all the way dooowwwwwnn!!!!!
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Dec 19, 2011 - 06:25pm PT
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Good for you RW!
(note- i have not read the thread thru')
I have been vegan or mostly vegan for yrs, and veggie or mostly veggie for 20 yrs (broken up by about 4 yrs eating some fish).
I agree, I feel great too, and my wife and employers will attest that I rarely get sick (except I always seem to get a sinus infection when I fly coast to coast- which sucks!)
Anyway- take note:
A healthy carnivorous diet minus the meat will not be a healthy diet.
One can eat nothing but potato chips and be a vegan, so the label itself is no sign of a healthy diet, right?
That said, your life is now open to a whole new kind of creativity, enjoy the opportunity!
Try to eat diverse and whole grains, and go big on lentils whenever possible.
wrt B12, the body store like 3 yrs of that, so it's nice to supplement, but no rush going there.
I also suggest eating organic and not bio-engineered foods whenever possible/reasonable, because those chemicals are not doing your endocrine systems a lick of good... as you know.
Cheers,
-Matt
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bergbryce
Mountain climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
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Dec 19, 2011 - 06:25pm PT
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Vegan Planet is a great cookbook. I'm not vegan but I like to eat healthy. In fact, just ate a very non-vegan pizza using the crust recipe from that book. Yum.
I like the idea of eating well most of the time.
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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Dec 19, 2011 - 06:28pm PT
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I'm not even a vegetarian, but the Moosewood cookbook still kicks ass.
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Relic
Social climber
Vancouver, BC
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Dec 19, 2011 - 06:31pm PT
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Aside from the B12 issue, how do these effeminate metrohippyuals get a good/adequate source of long chain Omega 3s?
Good vegan sources for B12 are chorella, miso, and nutritional yeast.
Omega-3 and omega-6 essential fatty acid sources include all things hemp(seeds, oil, protein powder), flax seeds, nuts, avocado
I'm no expert but I have been doing the vegan thing for a while. I really felt great and noticed a huge difference in my energy level when I started the vegan thing. I cave in once in a while and eat burgs n crap like that, but I always feel like garbage after.
I highly recommend eating lots of quinoa. Use it as a sub for rice/pasta. Eat a lot of wholesome veg like kale.
I make smoothies for breakfast, especially when I'm planning on going climbing. My favorite smoothie powder is made by Vega, its called Complete Whole Food Health Optimizer. I get a lot of energy milage out of those smoothies, great stuff. It has all the essential daily vitamin, fatty acids, proteins, minerals you need.
A book I read on going vegan was The Thrive Diet, by Brendan Brazier. He's a tri-athelete vegan dude.
Good luck on your vegan thingy.
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S.Leeper
Social climber
somewhere that doesnt have anything over 90'
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Dec 19, 2011 - 06:39pm PT
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Way to go Riley. I made it about 4 months full on vegan.
Find the food that satisfy you so you don't get tempted.
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Dec 19, 2011 - 06:48pm PT
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Repeat after me: ALAs are not DHA/EPA. ALAs do not convert very efficicently.
From "Differentiation of ALA (plant sources) from DHA + EPA (marine sources) as Dietary Omega-3 Fatty Acids for Human Health "
... the published literature and reviews thereof indicate that, for the most part, ALA does not offer the same beneficial effects (or even portions thereof) for most of the cardiovascular risk parameters which have been evaluated and favorably influenced with DHA/EPA. It should also be noted that, in many of the controlled human trials, higher levels of ALA (omega-3) have been employed relative to DHA/EPA (combined). In general, the anti-thrombotic effects (including inhibition of blood platelet aggregation) have been very week or non-existent when ALA is compared to DHA/EPA. This overall perspective should not be surprising upon consideration that ALA likely requires conversion to DHA/EPA via desaturation/elongation reactions if it were to provide similar cardioprotective effects to that of pre-formed DHA/EPA. As mentioned previously, the conversion efficiency of ALA to DHA/EPA is very limited in humans. Controlled human studies using deuterated ALA coupled to GC-mass spec analysis have indicated conversion efficiencies of ALA to DHA/EPA (combined) ranging from 8-30%. Whereas DHA/EPA has a well-established blood triglyceride-lowering effect with a trend towards increasing HDL-cholesterol levels, ALA has no such effects.
Vegan is not natural, primates eat meat.
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monolith
climber
berzerkly
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Dec 19, 2011 - 06:58pm PT
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Primates in general consume little animal products. Some nearly none. It's mostly curiosity and territorial control against other primates. They get most of their nutrition from fruits and leaves.
Some of the primates(chimpanzee,bonobo) are considerd frugivors.
If humans ate the way primates do, fruit consumption would go way up and meat consumption would go way down.
Ants anyone?
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Captain...or Skully
climber
Asgard or bust
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Dec 19, 2011 - 07:03pm PT
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Eyes in front, 3 kinds of teeth.
Predator.
Vegans are delicious, If you've got enough butter.
Whole lotta bastin' goin' on.
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Johnny K.
climber
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Dec 19, 2011 - 07:47pm PT
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mmmmmmmmmMMMMMMmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
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Captain...or Skully
climber
Asgard or bust
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Dec 19, 2011 - 08:10pm PT
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You can have that shizz, Doc. If it's buried, it's supposed to stay that way.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Dec 19, 2011 - 08:34pm PT
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FACT: There is no one type of diet which is universally good for all types of people. Some people thrive on one kind of diet, others on another.
It took me roughly 30 years to figure out what works best for me, although had I listened better to my body I would have got there sooner.
I've tried a lot of diets including many years vegetarian. Here's what I know about me. Wheat is bad. Fat is good. High quality (pasture raised organic) meats are good in limited quantities. Fish and poultry are good. Again, organic poultry and no farmed fish.
So I get all my carbs from fruit and veggies. That is the largest bulk of food I eat. I eat some meat each day. Some eggs most days. I cook with olive oil (low heat only,) avocado and coconut oils for higher temps. No processed foods, no refined sugars. Almost no ales, just 1 coffee AM and maybe wine before bed. Lots of water. Sea salt for trace minerals. Supplement iodine.
I'm about 2 years in and it's really great. All of the big energy swings and "hitting the wall" from the past are gone. Used to be if I started to feel even a little hunger I had to eat right away or bonk. Not so now. The furnace just keeps right on running.
Riley I hope it works for you. I am not a skeptic, we each have our own needs. Listen to your body, it will tell you. Andof course your needs will change over time.
edit: Buy and prepare your own food as much as possible. I eat out about once in two weeks. Restaurants are hell, even pretty good ones.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Dec 19, 2011 - 09:49pm PT
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Oh Jim....that is terrible...! RJ
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Dec 19, 2011 - 09:50pm PT
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Riley...Try a wheat grass enema...it will turn it all around for you and balance your chakras....RJ
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
-A community of hairless apes
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Dec 19, 2011 - 09:59pm PT
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Ksolem,
"Here's what I know about me. Wheat is bad. Fat is good. High quality (pasture raised organic) meats are good in limited quantities... I eat some meat each day. Some eggs most days."
Interesting, and remind us, for it to be most meaningful,
1. your age,
2. your cholesterol numbers, ratio if you know it, too
3. whether or not you're on a statin
Thanks.
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Dec 19, 2011 - 10:03pm PT
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My friend's grandmother Gladys, oldest living marathon runner. Vegetarian. 7th day Adventists with their vegetarian and vegan diets live longer then any other group on the planet, which is nice.
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nature
climber
Aridzona for now Denver.... here I come...
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Dec 19, 2011 - 10:33pm PT
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a couple of folks in this thread are a colon cancer waiting to happen.
good job riley... but you gonna have to break this habit if you show up at sushifest.
pescatarians untie!
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S.Leeper
Social climber
somewhere that doesnt have anything over 90'
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Dec 19, 2011 - 10:38pm PT
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All great reasons to go Vegan.
Keep it up Riley!
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S.Leeper
Social climber
somewhere that doesnt have anything over 90'
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Dec 19, 2011 - 10:39pm PT
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No vegetatrian sushi, Nature?
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nature
climber
Aridzona for now Denver.... here I come...
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Dec 19, 2011 - 10:41pm PT
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yeah... i have vegetarian sushi. and vegan sushi.
but I know riley and he ain't gonna pass up on fish ;-)
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Dec 19, 2011 - 10:51pm PT
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Interesting, and remind us, for it to be most meaningful,
1. your age,
2. your cholesterol numbers, ratio if you know it, too
3. whether or not you're on a statin
Thanks.
1. 58 (I weigh under 150, 8.5 to 10% body fat (depending on the measuring technique)
2. Overall cholesterol is near but below what my regular doc likes to see, but the ratio of hdl / ldl is extremely good. Triglicerides are really low too.
3. Absolutely not.
There is a lot of valid research out there linking problems with cholesterol and arterial disease. The research linking eating fat and having high cholesterol is more confusing though. It seems that it is the carbs which are the problem.
Oh I just had the whole cardiac workup and I am in great shape. (from the shoulders down anyway...)
As I said, when it comes to diet ther is no one rule for all.
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Dec 19, 2011 - 10:53pm PT
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[Click to View YouTube Video]
Vegan.
(edit - Russ, I'm looking into tasting his jizzum for purposes of scientific research. So far multiple emails have left me empty handed, but hopeful.)
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Dec 19, 2011 - 10:57pm PT
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Do vegans get demoted for eating pussy ?
Interesting question. The 5th Food Group.
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Dec 19, 2011 - 11:02pm PT
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thought about soy protein? Being on like a 1750 cal/day diet with ~100g of protein and sh#t loads of climbing will slim you down, just be careful your muscles don't metabolize themselves...
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nature
climber
Aridzona for now Denver.... here I come...
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Dec 19, 2011 - 11:05pm PT
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watch out for soy....
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 19, 2011 - 11:10pm PT
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Vegetarian is so simple.
You eat anything except meat fish and eggs.
And whatever you decide you don't want.
Why are people so complicated ......
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Dec 19, 2011 - 11:25pm PT
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December 2010, 207 pounds.... December 2011, 155 pounds. Weeee!
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S.Leeper
Social climber
somewhere that doesnt have anything over 90'
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Dec 19, 2011 - 11:28pm PT
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How did you do it GDavis?
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nature
climber
Aridzona for now Denver.... here I come...
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Dec 19, 2011 - 11:29pm PT
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december 2010 176 lbs.
june 2011 155 lbs.
december 2011 163 lbs
(I went to India for 2.5 months - "bad" food and even worse beer).
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Dec 19, 2011 - 11:35pm PT
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5'10" 157lbs
PescAwhatever, though not into labels
Intrigued by the vegan path as a short time thing.
But yeah, keep your thing outta my broccoli!!
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Dec 19, 2011 - 11:40pm PT
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once you're big its easy to start, by cutting out salts and sugars you can drop a good 10 pounds pretty fast (if your diet is already heavy in that stuff). Also, being larger, you will burn MUCH more at the gym. Keep a light diet and don't go trying to lose 5 pounds a week, aim for 2 a week at best.
First, find out your basal metabolic rate (kinda tricky, but some web calculators can help you with that.
Next, figure you will want to be in a deficit of about 30% - thats enough to keep your body from going into "survival mode." When you start to reduce your caloric intake, your body thinks its being starved so holds onto fats and energy, and in the process eats away at your muscle (not a big deal for soccer moms looking to lose baby weight but for climbers its death). You combat this by doing a few things, making sure you are not shocking your system being one, but the other two is getting enough exercise and protein.
Make sure to regularly stimulate all of your muscle groups in your workouts and consume at best a minimum of half your body weight in grams of protein. Carbs are great so long as you keep your calories no less than ~70% of your BMR.
Buy a heart rate monitor and make sure you are exercising as much as possible with as little impact as possible. Rest days are needed to rebuild damaged tissue, but by doing low impact activities you reduce the needed recovery time drastically. Keep that heart rate monitor to make sure you are in an aerobic, rather than anaerobic, state (should be able to hold a conversation).
Lets just assume your BMR is 2000 calories per day. Consume 1500 (this will suck, but to do yourself a favor keep it HIGH in veggies and eat throughout the day, a breakfast which is high in protein - kashi cereal is great - then snack for lunch, a good light dinner, BOOM!) calories, burn 750 at a gym, you are at a deficit of 1250 calories. That's a little more than 2lbs a week of actual weight loss, not water loss or retension or whatever. Consider too that cutting back on sodium, fats and salts will normalize your water levels and you won't hold onto as much, and sweat OFTEN to get rid of toxicities (thats a great way to get rid of waste!) and drink your weight in ounces of water at best a day... and voila.
Its really not too difficult.
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mike m
Trad climber
black hills
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Dec 20, 2011 - 12:01am PT
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I have a brother and his wife that went vegan and it made for some interesting times at fmaily gatherings. This coming from a family raised on beef from my grandparent's farm. My parents did not get it and it was tough to make everyone happy at the dinner table esspecially at Thanksgiving.
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Dec 20, 2011 - 12:05am PT
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I'm no vegan, but I don't see why you need to stick your dick in their broccoli.
Yer doin' it wrong. Dick goes in the mashed potatoes.
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Dec 20, 2011 - 12:06am PT
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Licensed to Ill reference?
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Captain...or Skully
climber
Asgard or bust
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Dec 20, 2011 - 12:07am PT
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Oh, it's gonna be THAT kind of party, eh?
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Dec 20, 2011 - 12:07am PT
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Then what's the pie for?
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Dec 20, 2011 - 12:21am PT
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Eating animal fat is the biggest killer we have as humans - that is just a fact.
Maybe eating an excess of the worst kind of animal fats, sure. But it's not as if animal fats in general are bad for you...fish oil is an animal fat with plenty of benefits.
If humans ate the way primates do, fruit consumption would go way up and meat consumption would go way down.
And the prancing boot and skinny hipster jeans aisles would be sold out too. Probably the eye liner too.
I am far from a carnivore, eat meat about 3-4x per week, 98% of the time it's fish, and eat more fresh fruit and veg than most. No aversion to grains, I do well on real oatmeal, whole grain breads and crackers, etc.
Personally, I couldn't care less what you eat, it's your body and you have to live in it. But I do find the rationalizations ridiculous. To hold up a vegan diet as "natural", "normal" or even healthier than a std pescatarian type diet is comical and misguided. Someone above falsely claimed the 7th dayers and their veggie/vegan thing as the longest lived. The research on longevity cultures tend to have a few things in common...vegan or strict veggie is not one of them. Low caloric intake is the standout commonality . Okinawans are one of the groups commonly studied for exceptional longevity, and they consume fish on the regular. Some peg dairy as one of the culprits, but another of the groups (from the Caucuses) have a full fat yogurt type food on the regular.
Eat what works for you...just don't try to convince me that your tofurkey extra kind vegan wholegrain nutburger is as satisfying as a bacon double chee.
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Captain...or Skully
climber
Asgard or bust
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Dec 20, 2011 - 12:27am PT
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It doesn't really matter how long you last if it's boring.
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Cave Creek, AZ
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Dec 20, 2011 - 10:16am PT
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We are omnivores by structure and physiology. It's just what it is.
I've been in the evidence based, functional medicine, and clinical nutrition business for almost 30 years; published articles in peer reviewed journals, been technical editor for books on diagnosis and clinical nutrition, lectured to docs of all types and in hospitals and colleges. Done the clinical outcome studies for developing nutritional formulas. All that is just to establish credibility.
Vegan diet is very useful as a therapeutic diet. Often, I won't even work with some patients unless they're willing to be on a vegan diet for a few months time. Because the diet is useful for straightening out previously atrocious dietary habits, people will typically start to feel great really great and get the idea that they should eat that way lifelong. But, watch out. Just because a vegan diet can be so great therapeutically doesn't mean it's good for you in the long run.
Some of the sickest people I've worked with have been in trouble because of their long term vegan diet. Osteoporosis, neurodegenerative illnesses, autoimmune disorders, muscle wasting, steroid and adrenal hormone imbalances, and protein, mineral, and essential fatty acid malnutrition.
And, it is typically incredibly difficult, if not impossible to convince a long term vegans to change their diet because their basis for their choice tends to be more "religious" and philosophical rather than based on science, though pseudoscientific arguments are often made to justify their position. And, no "The China Study" doesn't make the case for veganism; it does make the case for a primarily plant based diet. There is no large scale vegan culture in the world. Hey, I get the environmental, economic, and ethical issues of animal based food and we are what we are - omnivores.
At the other end, most people eat stuff that has little resemblance to real food and too much of that is meat and dairy products. The most proven diet for long term health is the Mediterranean diet - fresh (usually organic) foods, freshly prepared, lots of variety (vegetables, beans, grains, nuts and seeds, oils, fruit, milk, eggs, fish, meats, wine, beer, etc.), mostly plants, and in moderation. Nothing dogmatic and tons of science.
Vegetarianism works! You don't have to eat meat to be healthy. You do have to include animal protein and animal based fats in your diet in the long run to be healthy.
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Dec 20, 2011 - 11:43am PT
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Locker, sorry to hear about your "issue". To much soy maybe, the breasts come next.
That said, Mark Force's opinion above couldn't be more wrong. We are not and do not have to be omnivores or carnivores. Sounds like he is reciting the same forcefed stuff out of a textbook that we all have been taught, but which has been conclusively proven to be false. If you pay attention to your diet, its easy to eat enough protein and have a well rounded diet. I am 53 now and been vegetarian for 17 years, and am much more healthy then I used to be. I rarely if ever get sick which is a huge benefit of being a vegetarian. I am also more fit and a stronger climber then I was 20 years ago, and hope to be getting after 5.13's when I'm in my 60's.
I myself am not a vegan, and eat cheese and yogurt. But many of the vegans I know are super healthy and fit.
Its the meat that will kill you.
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Cave Creek, AZ
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Dec 20, 2011 - 11:50am PT
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Study, glad to hear the vegetarianism has worked for you! Yes, vegetarianism works! Long term vegans don't test so well, the physical exams and labs show it over and over again.
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Dec 20, 2011 - 12:00pm PT
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Thank you Mark! I have a friend who is a lifelong vegan, as he was raised this way by his 7th day Adventists parents and still is vegan to this day. He is about 50 now, and has never been sick as long as I have known him and has more energy and drive then anyone I know. He is an amazing person, super smart, very fit, and never tires or gets sleepy like normal people, its wierd. He is also a medical doctor. He also raises his whole family to be vegan, and they are one healthy strapping bunch of folks. I think he would tend to disagree that vegan diets don't work lifelong.
But again, he makes a conscious effort to eat well rounded and exercise, and maybe many people who are vegan do not do so.
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nita
Social climber
chica de chico, I don't claim to be a daisy.
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Dec 20, 2011 - 12:01pm PT
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Riley, ..if you like to cook..
Buy one of~ Isa Chandra Moskowitz cook books, also check out her website.
http://www.theppk.com/2011/10/mushroom-hot-pot/
Veganomicon & Appetite for reduction, are her most popular cook books.
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monolith
climber
berzerkly
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Dec 20, 2011 - 12:09pm PT
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It's easy to eat a crappy vegan diet. Way too many highly processed vegan foods out there. Like most things, to be good at, takes much study, and effort.
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S.Leeper
Social climber
somewhere that doesnt have anything over 90'
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Dec 20, 2011 - 06:25pm PT
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vegan bump
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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Dec 20, 2011 - 06:43pm PT
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Riley, PM me your address if you cook on the reg.
I'll send you my Moosewood cookbook.
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nita
Social climber
chica de chico, I don't claim to be a daisy.
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Dec 20, 2011 - 06:45pm PT
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Brandon, did Moosewood change their recipes? They used to be full of dairy products.
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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Dec 20, 2011 - 06:53pm PT
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Hmmm... I have a hard time wrapping my head around the vegan thing.
Yes, there are a lot of dairy products in the recipes, but a committed vegan could find substitutes I guess.
My bad.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 20, 2011 - 06:54pm PT
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You guys have no clue.
The real goal of a vegetarian diet is not for any health reasons, nor to gain any special powers, nor to climb better, none of that.
The vegetarian diet may give some of the above benefits but they are only secondary.
If one is only seeking health, longevity or special endurance benefits for vegetarian diet then you've failed to understand the real goal.
Even the meat eater lives long, dies short or in between the same as the vegetarian dies short life, long life or medium.
Thus .... one must find "What IS the real goal of this diet?"
If one doesn't know then they've failed.
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The Doctor
Social climber
Da Bronx
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Dec 20, 2011 - 07:07pm PT
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Hey Riley, it's not what you eat, but what's eating you. The Dr P.S. don't get too wrapped up in nutritional/medical mumbo jumbo, you'll know what works for you. It's all about the journey.
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Captain...or Skully
climber
Asgard or bust
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Dec 20, 2011 - 07:44pm PT
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LockerMan, your "toe" remark rolled me.
Sometimes, the tiniest things seem so funny.
Humo(o)r rules.
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salad
climber
Escondido
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Dec 20, 2011 - 09:24pm PT
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f*#king hilarious russ...
riley nice work, stick with it see if it works.
i went Veg for 7 years, but i ate cheese and liquid chicken.
went on my first fishing trip to alaska with dad and bro and we each came back with 100lbs of halibut and salmon.
last night in AK we be at a restaurant for dinner and dad and bro inform me that since im a veg, i only get 25% of my cut of the fish.
waitress came round and took our orders so i ordered a rib eye medium rare, scarfed that f*cker down, told dad and bro to f off and took my 100 lbs of fish.
been back on the meat ever since.
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Captain...or Skully
climber
Asgard or bust
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Dec 20, 2011 - 09:27pm PT
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My friend Sunshine(many El Portal Locals knew her) WAS a Vegan. Until pregnancy.
That ended it. According to her. I believe her. Some cravings are NOT to be denied.
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mike m
Trad climber
black hills
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Dec 21, 2011 - 06:33pm PT
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Riley, I thought a while ago I saw some of your pictures with kids. I am just curious how that has gone if they have switched with you or do you cook separate meals. My younger brother and his wife have eaten a vegan diet exclusively for well over a year now but I think their kids do not always do so.
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Dec 21, 2011 - 06:53pm PT
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Sister Lavender and Brother Solstice welcome you to the cult Riley. They've got some dank, kind lentil stew just waiting for yew.
After dinner, there will be evening entertainment by these nice fellows:
Rawk out with yer soy cheese out brah!
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rectorsquid
climber
Lake Tahoe
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Dec 21, 2011 - 07:04pm PT
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I suppose that vegans are absolutely sure that meat is not a necessary part of a diet or they would not eat that way. But then the people that eat nothing but dirt are sure that it's the right thing to do too. At least eating a little dirt and a little meat makes me confident that I am not missing some essential ingredient of life.
I'm just not so sure that the people that supplement their diet with Hydrogen-Peroxide are on the right track.
Dave
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Dec 21, 2011 - 08:17pm PT
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The deal hers is that there is a lot more to this or anything, than labels. Wanna eat well? do some research and experiments and find what works for you. Temper it with your touchy feely thoughts about bambi if it helps. take it from there.
Are your a Trad climber?
are you a sportclimber?
do you feel a need to define yourself to others??
find what works for you and share, if you're into that sort of thing.
I like to climb wyde cracks more than anything, and I have onsighted .12 sportclimbs in the last year. I have not eaten a mammal (lame pussy jokes not withstanding)in decades, I do eat fish a few times a month and ate a turkey burger last night. I do considar the conciosussness of things I eat, and I came from a genetic heritage of high cholesterol. I work out / eat, with that in mind.
I make my own dietery/ climbing, gestalt. At age 55, with a sub 10% body fat and climbing 5.12 OW and running a half marathon in the last few weeks, I'm more or less happy, and working on some things. Other people are way more eager to categorize me on these and other things than I ever see a need for.
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Cave Creek, AZ
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Dec 21, 2011 - 10:00pm PT
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Jaybro, you're not a vegan, but you're a great example that vegetarian diets work!
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SofCookay
climber
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Dec 21, 2011 - 11:05pm PT
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Hey Riley, good on you for losing weight. As you may or may not remember, I'm a vegetarian, no meat at all, not even seafood. I do eat eggs, but only cage-free ones and I seldom eat cheese, mostly veggie cheese.
I became a vegetarian not for health reasons, but to protest factory farming, which is really quite heinous.
I believe Jaybro is a semi-vegetarian since he eats fish and poultry :)
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Dec 21, 2011 - 11:07pm PT
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Though it has made Brad threaten to hurl, Lucille was put up by two semi-vegiterians...
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Dec 21, 2011 - 11:29pm PT
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Riley, One easy way to cook your own stuff is to get a dehydrator (excaliber is one brand to look at.) Slice fruits and veggies and dehydrate them. You can oil or marinate them if you want. If you get a mandoline the slicing is not labor intensive. Use organic, you get big quantities of portable good food.
Another great way to cook is with a slow cooker like a crockpot. On low veggies tend not to overcook. Soups with sweet potatoes etc are great. Turn it on before you go to qwork and when you get home your food is waiting. There are lots of good veggie recipies out there for the crock pot.
For both of these appliances I say get a big one. Do a lot of food at once, cook less often.
Not trying to influence you in any way, but just as part of the conversation, it is very possible to buy meat without supporting the industrial farming complex. For example in CA Creston Valley Meats is a source for local organic pasture raised meats. No feed lots means no antibiotics or hormones. No fed lot fattening on corn also means a very favorable ratio of Omega 3 to 6, and less fatty meat. Reasonable prices too, just takes some planning.
The USDA (in concert with industry) has made it as hard as possible for farmers who want to pasture raise their cows to get the meat to market, but cooperatives like Creston Valley are starting to get a toehold. These are businesses worthy of support.
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Karen
Trad climber
So Cal urban sprawl Hell
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Dec 21, 2011 - 11:58pm PT
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My neighbor was very over-weight went on some sort of Weight Watcher diet and got down to a healthier weight. Then she became a Vegan and from what I've seen its all been downhill since, she is once again very over weight. According to her, she says a Vegan diet isn't necessarily low calorie, this is what confuses me.
So how do you eat Vegan and lose weight and/or not get fat? Realize I cannot generalize how she eats (maybe way too much) to the success of a Vegan diet.
Also, realize if you are scarfing down way too much rice and other carbs, makes no difference how healthy the diet is.
I would like to go the vegetarian route, but a bit intimidated. Meat is actually disgusting to me, those pictures of ribs and bacon, yuck-what I see is some dead slaughtered animal and that isn't appetizing.
The only meat I eat is organic free range chicken and only the white meat, dark has all the tendons and such-yuck. Really can only tolerate salmon and halibit and since learning about how unhealthy farm raised fish is, now will only eat wild.
Do love cheese and eggs but no longer drink milk-replaced that with soymilk. I'm lazy so the thought of how I would need to cook to be a real vegetarian keeps me stuck. A lot of the recipes online are just too much for me and weird. What I need is a mentor and yes, I am kinda picky.
Best of yuck with your diet Riley I'm glad its going well for you!
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Matt
Trad climber
it's all turtles, all the way dooowwwwwnn!!!!!
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Dec 22, 2011 - 02:05am PT
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that ohio clinic and their work is also discussed in a book called the china study- that book was a factor in my switching diets awhile back. good book.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Dec 22, 2011 - 02:43am PT
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Sheesh! Save it for the diet challenge, eh? Only two weeks from now.
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Dec 22, 2011 - 11:43am PT
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skating on stilts
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
-A community of hairless apes
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Dec 28, 2011 - 10:19pm PT
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Got Milk?
It's time millions MORE people challenged this dairy industry slogan.
re: soy milk
re: coconut milk
If you haven't already, try em, you might be pleasantly surprised.
At netflix: Forks Over Knives... 4 stars.
....
Dairy cow farmer: mene mene tekel upharsin ;)
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FRUMY
Trad climber
SHERMAN OAKS,CA
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Dec 28, 2011 - 10:41pm PT
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Almond milk is best.
Riley Wyna aren't you dead yet? Didn't you lose all of you're weight?
Anyone that eats meat knows you can't live eating nothing.
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Dec 29, 2011 - 01:42am PT
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nice Riley...gettin' down to hookin' weight.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 29, 2011 - 01:56am PT
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Dale Bard lived on just about only sugar.
Nothing but sugar.
He put healthy people under the table.
When everyone else dropped dead he was still ticking strong.
He was exact opposite of modern medical science and blew them away.
Modern science failed to ever figure this guy out.
He was the real original energizer bunny .....
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Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
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Dec 29, 2011 - 02:07am PT
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Dale also tried to kill himself.
you have to eat according to your blood type,
are you type O?
then you need meat. lots and lots of meat. and fish.
observe>
"People who are O blood type have a different set of characteristics than people who are Type B or Type A - they are susceptible to different diseases, they should eat different foods and exercise in a completely different manner. Some believe that personality is influenced by blood type! Dr. D'Adamo, author of the best selling books Eat Right for Your Type and Live Right for Your Type, among others, gives us a blueprint for living in his books. Read on to learn more about the Type O individual.
The Blood Type O Individualized Lifestyle
Why are some people plagued by poor health while others seem to live healthy, vital lives even late in life? Does blood type influence personality? A single drop of blood contains a biochemical make up as unique as your fingerprint. Your blood type is a key to unlocking the secrets to your biochemical individuality. Foods and supplements contain lectins that interact with your cells depending on your blood type. This explains why some nutrients which are beneficial to one blood type, may be harmful to the cells of another. Dr. Peter D’Adamo, the author of the best selling books Eat Right for Your Type and Live Right for Your Type gives Type O’s some tips on leading a healthy lifestyle.
The Type O Profile
Type O was the first blood type, the type O ancestral prototype was a canny, aggressive predator. Aspects of the Type O profile remain essential in every society even to this day – leadership, extroversion, energy and focus are among their best traits. Type O’s can be powerful and productive, however, when stressed Type O’s response can be one of anger, hyperactivity, and impulsivity. When Type O wiring gets crossed, as a result of a poor diet, lack of exercise, unhealthy behaviors or elevated stress levels, Type O’s are more vulnerable to negative metabolic effects, including insulin resistance, sluggish thyroid activity, and weight gain. When you customize your life to Type O’s strengths you can reap the benefits of your ancestry. Your genetic inheritance offers you the opportunity to be strong, lean, productive, long-lived and optimistic.
What Makes You Unique
As a Blood Type O you may be predisposed to certain illnesses, such as ulcers and thyroid disorders. In the 1950’s it was discovered that Type O’s had about twice the instances of ulcers of all kinds than the other blood types. These findings have been replicated many times since then. Type O’s tend to have low levels of thyroid hormone and often exhibit insufficient levels of iodine, a chemical element whose sole purpose is thyroid hormone regulation. This causes many side effects such as weight gain, fluid retention and fatigue. Dr. D’Adamo does not recommend iodine supplements, rather a diet rich in saltw#ter fish and kelp to help regulate the thyroid gland. Bladder Wrack is also an excellent nutrient for type O’s. This herb, actually a seaweed, is very effective as an aid to weight control for Type O’s. “The fucose in bladder wrack seems to help normalize the sluggish metabolic rate and produce weight loss in Type O’s,” says Dr. D’Adamo.
Type O’s also have a higher level of stomach acid than the other blood types, which often results in stomach irritation and ulcers. Dr. D’Adamo recommends a licorice preparation called DGL (de glycyrrhizinated licorice) which can reduce discomfort and aid healing. DGL protects the stomach lining in addition to protecting it from stomach acids. Avoid crude licorice preparations as they contain a component of the plant which can cause elevated blood pressure. This component has been removed in DGL. Dr. D'Adamo also recommends Mastic Gum and Bismuth to soothe Type O's common and even frequent tummy troubles.
Type O Personality?
In Japan, blood type has long been associated with personality type. You might well be asked your blood type on a job interview! In an independent study of 45 MBA students, Type O’s most often described themselves in ways related to the following characteristics; responsible, decisive, organized, objective, rule-conscious, and practical. Both male and female Type O’s reported a higher percentage of the mesomorphic body type when compared to controls. Interestingly, Type O’s also scored significantly higher than the rest in “sensing” – using the 5 senses to gather information, and in the sensing-thinking combination, indicating that they are more detail and fact oriented, logical, precise and orderly. “I believe that the tendency to sense and get facts right stems from the inbred hunter-gatherer need to observe and accurately assess the environment in order to insure survival.” Says D’Adamo.
Manage Your Type O Stress
The legacy of your Type O ancestry causes an immediate “fight or flight” response in people of this blood type. However, this finely tuned response to stress, so vital in early Type O’s, is not always so beneficial in modern times. The Type O response can cause bouts of excessive anger, temper tantrums, hyperactivity and even create a severe enough chemical imbalance to bring about a manic episode. Since there is a powerful, synergistic relationship between the release of dopamine and feelings of reward, Type O is more vulnerable to destructive behaviors when overly tired, depressed or bored. These can include gambling, sensation seeking, risk taking, substance abuse and impulsivity. To avoid becoming overstressed, Dr. D’Adamo recommends following the Type O diet, which focuses on lean, organic meats, vegetables and fruits and avoid wheat and dairy which can be triggers for digestive and health issues in Type O. Additionally, he suggests that Type O’s avoid caffeine and alcohol. Caffeine can be particularly harmful because of its tendency to raise adrenaline and noradrenaline, which are already high for Type O’s.
Energize - The Essential Exercise Component
Type O’s benefit tremendously from brisk regular exercise that taxes the cardiovascular and muscular skeletal system. But the benefit derived surpasses the goal of physical fitness. Type O also derives the benefit of a well timed chemical release system. The act of physical exercise releases a swarm of neurotransmitter activity that acts as a tonic for the entire system. The Type O who exercises regularly also has a better emotional response. You are more emotionally balanced as a result of well regulated, efficient chemical transport system. More than any other blood type, O’s rely on physical exercise to maintain physical health and emotional balance. Dr. D’Adamo suggests that Type O’s engage in regular physical activity three to four times per week. For best results, engage in aerobic activity for thirty to forty five minutes at least four times per week. If you are easily bored, choose two or three different exercises and vary your routine.
Live Right!
In addition to exercising and eating foods that are Right For Your Type, here are a few key lifestyle strategies for Type O individuals:
Develop clear plans for goals and tasks – annual, monthly, weekly, daily to avoid impulsivity.
Make lifestyle changes gradually, rather than trying to tackle everything at once.
Eat all meals, even snacks, seated at a table.
Chew slowly and put your fork down between bites of food.
Avoid making big decisions or spending money when stressed.
Do something physical when you feel anxious.
Engage in thirty to forty five minutes of aerobic exercise at least four times per week.
When you crave a pleasure releasing-substance (alcohol, tobacco, sugar), do something physical.
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steveA
Trad climber
bedford,massachusetts
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Dec 29, 2011 - 08:31am PT
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The only climber I know who has been a strict Vegan for most of his life is Jimmy Dunn. The diet seems to have served him well.
In my opinion the genes you inherit play a HUGE role in longevity. Almost all my ancestors, on my fathers side came from Prince Edward Island, going back to the early 1600's and France before that. They were all farmers and ate a good deal of fish, as well as veggies--no junk food-- it wasn't invented yet.
I know that the majority of my family line from PEI lived well into their 90's. My grandmother died at 100. Her mother lived to 99. We buried my 2 aunts last year, one at 100, the other 104.
What we put in our mouths is obviously important, but the genes you inherit, in my opinion are even more important, in regards to longevity.
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FRUMY
Trad climber
SHERMAN OAKS,CA
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Dec 29, 2011 - 11:43am PT
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Fortmental --- you ring the Almonds little neck till it spits out it milk.
On a serious side no fat is a problem. I would be reading as much as I could about fat & heart disease.
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pyro
Big Wall climber
Calabasas
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Dec 29, 2011 - 11:48am PT
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frumy i had a friend that was fun to climb with at Stoney. after a few years without running into him at stoney i figured he moved on. a couple months ago i found out that patrick died of extreme veganism. he always bragged about how much better he felt.
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scuffy b
climber
heading slowly NNW
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Dec 29, 2011 - 12:02pm PT
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I think a tasteful selection in sham pelt.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Dec 29, 2011 - 12:09pm PT
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Sham pelt; animal juju w/o the karmic consequences!
Cheetah perched on my head right now.
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Steve L
Gym climber
SUR
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Dec 29, 2011 - 12:46pm PT
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Nice! Who is "Cheetah"??
Wait, is this thread about going vegan, or going plushie?
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Dec 29, 2011 - 01:20pm PT
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I believe a nice hemp choker is the accepted accouterment
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Dec 30, 2011 - 04:40am PT
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Are those in your family Vegans as well?
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Dec 30, 2011 - 05:43am PT
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Riley-
One thing to consider with your sudden burst of energy is that you are eating many fewer calories than before so your body is consuing its own fat which raises your metabolism and certain hormones and chemicals which gives you the feeling of more energy. Once your body weight stablizes you may not feel the same. Anyway, it will be interesting to see.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Dec 30, 2011 - 05:51am PT
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As for personality and blood types, Sprock is right that the Japanese believe you can tell personality from blood type. They all know their blood type and ask each other's in casual conversations when they meet in bars just as Californian's ask "what's your sign?".
This started in the 1930's as a response of japanese scientists to western racism, oriental exclusion laws etc. They correctly pointed out that so called racial features don't matter with blood compatibility, it's matching types that are important. From this the public somehow extrapolated that blood types affected personality.
The problem with this (among others) is that only O Blood is purely O or homozygous O in biological jargon (OO). If a person is A they may be homozygous AA, having inherited A from both parents or hertozygous A0. Likewise BB or B0, while AB or BA is always herozygous. At the least the theory would have to make those distinctions in personality to be valid. Likewise, diet plans.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Dec 30, 2011 - 07:02am PT
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Vegan is nuts and a total PINTA. vegetarian on the other hand rocks. i did it for 5 years when I was martial arts instructor. I had tons of fun rubbing it in when I totaly spanked carnivors. many of todays top MMA fighters are veg heads. Veggi is also probobly the best diet for rock climbers. Ice climbers need the meat to keep from freezing to death> that is how i went back to meat. got my ass kicked on a brutaly cold day ice climbing. Stopped at the bar on the way home and washed down a cheeseburger with a gallon or so of guiness;)
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FRUMY
Trad climber
SHERMAN OAKS,CA
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Dec 30, 2011 - 11:46am PT
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No Russ they have to make their rope out of celery thread.
& some people believe anything. Blood type morons. & you can tell crazy people by the lumps on their head.
Everyone knows that only the feeble post on the taco.
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Dec 30, 2011 - 12:03pm PT
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On a interesting sidenote, the earliest known words of Christ state that he was a Vegetarian. Here are some of what he said translated directly from Aramaic Hebrew. Heavy stuff.
'Thou shalt not kill, for life is given to all by God, and that which God has given, let not man take away. For-I tell you truly, from one Mother proceeds all that lives upon the earth. Therefore, he who kills, kills his brother. And from him will the Earthly Mother turn away, and will pluck from him her quickening breasts. And he will be shunned by her angels, and Satan will have his dwelling in his body. And the flesh of slain beasts in his body will become his own tomb. For I tell you truly, he who kills, kills himself, and whoso eats the flesh of slain beasts, eats of the body of death.
Christ, John the Baptist, and the Essenes were not vegan, and ate cheese and milk, etc.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Dec 30, 2011 - 01:40pm PT
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Last summer Dingus McGee leaned over to me and said, "ya know, jay, no vegiterian ever one the tour du France. F*#kers have ta eat 6,000 calories a day! Think how often they'd have to shit!"
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Dec 30, 2011 - 02:52pm PT
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I never have to take a dump when I do 100+ mile bike race/rides. My body consumes all I eat, burns clean. A block of baked teriyaki tofu and Im good to go all flipping day, all you can handle, with a couple bananas and apples and peanut butter and jelly sandwichs to boot.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 30, 2011 - 02:54pm PT
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the Essenes were not vegan, and ate cheese and milk, etc.
Are you stupid Studly?
Milk and cheese is what vegetarians eat for protean.
Milk and cheese is vegetarian.
You people got vegetarian all wrong and think it only requires eating and smoking grass .....
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Dec 30, 2011 - 03:06pm PT
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thats what I said Werner, the Essenes ate milk and cheese as they were vegetarian, which vegans do not. Most of my protein comes from nuts and that could explain why I am.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 30, 2011 - 03:20pm PT
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Yeah you're right.
I thought vegan and vegetarian is the same.
Werner = stupid mental speculator
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Dec 31, 2011 - 03:51am PT
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Have you given up anything else?
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Dec 31, 2011 - 08:07am PT
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Riley-
I do a 2 month vegan fast myself every year so I know what you mean about it being almost impossible to find anything to eat, although it's somewhat better in Japan with all the miso and tofu about.
Anyway, good luck!
You know there are people in monastaries in America who go 40 days without eating anything at all and survive. Hungry for the first few days then not at all. Then a second hunger sets in after about a month and that one you have to pay attention to.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
-A community of hairless apes
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Dec 31, 2011 - 04:43pm PT
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re: almond milk
Thanks for the prodding to try almond milk, I like it. Similar to the other alternatives, soy milk and coconut milk.
.....
It would be wonderful, I think, if sometime this century we could significantly reduce if not eliminate these animal factories - esp when there's so very many reasons for doing so.
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kunlun_shan
Mountain climber
SF, CA
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Dec 31, 2011 - 06:12pm PT
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Riley, I've found Brendan Brazier's books, especially "Thrive: The Vegan Nutrition Guide to Optimal Performance in Sports and Life", hugely helpful in improving my diet and nutrition. I've been vegetarian for a bit over 30 years now. I found the comment about vegetarians not winning the Tour de France pretty funny. It IS a mainstream perception that no-meat diets are low cal, but I'm sure one could get as many calories as needed with the right oils in one's diet. I ski tour at a high level in winter on a veggie diet and most people can't keep up with me.
Do check out the Brazier books. They are awesome and some of the stuff he sells through Vega, like the antioxidant EFA oil are easy to find in most health food stores.
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FRUMY
Trad climber
SHERMAN OAKS,CA
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Dec 31, 2011 - 07:31pm PT
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Almond milk is much healthier than soy juice.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Dec 31, 2011 - 08:28pm PT
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Modify, but never give up.
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Dec 31, 2011 - 08:40pm PT
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I agree, Almond milk way better then soy or cows milk. I use it on my cereal, delicious!
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S.Leeper
Social climber
somewhere that doesnt have anything over 90'
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Dec 31, 2011 - 08:42pm PT
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Im also a fan of almond milk; the chocolate variety has gotten me through many cravings.
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FRUMY
Trad climber
SHERMAN OAKS,CA
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Dec 31, 2011 - 09:07pm PT
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Almonds are better for you than rice. & rice plugs me up & that ain't no gud.
But I hate to take good jobs away from rice milkers.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Dec 31, 2011 - 09:17pm PT
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Milk Sux, except for chocolate silk, in small doses, on limited occasions...
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S.Leeper
Social climber
somewhere that doesnt have anything over 90'
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How goes it, Riley?
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Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
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pure cambodian milk is the best.
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nature
climber
Aridzona for now Denver.... here I come...
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I've pretty much made the switch to coconut milk and other coconut products.
How much do you weigh now Riley? you've been at this a while and you might finally be lighter than me. though it won't last. I'm scared to step on my scale after this two and a half week trip around the US.
I just wish my shoulder wasn't still all jacked up :-(
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S.Leeper
Social climber
somewhere that doesnt have anything over 90'
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keep it up Riley; you've inspired me to go back to the vegan way.
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nature
climber
Aridzona for now Denver.... here I come...
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yeah, not a chance. my scale will probably tip at 170 and i'm not gonna like it. but it's motivating me. 160 by the time my honey gets back from India. wonder if I can go that long with no beer. hmmm...
you do have many options for salad dressing - especially if you make it yourself. try taking some miso soup, dilute it with water, add a table spoon of sesame seeds butter (hmmm oils?) and see how it tastes.
do you have to avoid oils *in* food? that'd mean all nuts are out.
as far as bread goes - the whole wheat might or might not have eggs. doesn't have to. read the label. there's a good chance it doesn't. though if you really want to cut some calories from your diet avoid wheat products.
for sugar use either maple syrup, honey or agave. the latter is what i prefer.
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zeth0101
Trad climber
Orinda, CA
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theyre real
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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no way!
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zeth0101
Trad climber
Orinda, CA
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well you could always ask her but i think she already has a youtube video addressing this
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Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
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are there any vegans in vegas?
no, only blood thirsty vulchers,
no wait, vultures,
do you like the surf group called the ventures?
they are all vegans, the ventures are.
but not leslie west of lowell george,
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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does the vegan diet have puffy, anti gravity qualities?
Really, though, she said they're real?
Link?
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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MMMMMM!!!!!!!!!!
Fresh Bacon!
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S.Leeper
Social climber
somewhere that doesnt have anything over 90'
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Jan 17, 2012 - 12:20am PT
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Good job Riley!! Way to start the year!
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Jan 17, 2012 - 12:36am PT
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go Riley...hooking weight!11!!!666
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nutjob
Gym climber
Berkeley, CA
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Jan 17, 2012 - 05:37pm PT
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Kickass!
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nutjob
Gym climber
Berkeley, CA
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Jan 17, 2012 - 05:43pm PT
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Good job Riley, keep it up as long as it feels right.
The one thing I really have an issue with is sugar and simple carb addiction. Whether it's sweet cereal and soy milk, or chocolate covered cherries from Trader Joe's, or apple pie, or donuts, or cake, or pancakes, mmmmmm.
I don't have a serious issue with it in that my body weight and fat ratios are pretty moderate and overall I have a pretty healthy diet and don't buy too much of that stuff when I go to the store as a basic way to limit my intake (and I fortunately have no desire for coffee, alcohol, salad dressing, ketchup, mustard, mayo, and whatever other sauces people stick on their food). But damn, I crave simple carbos. And I feel bad after I overload on it.
Do folks have any good ideas for healthier alternative that will help me deal with those cravings?
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Jan 17, 2012 - 05:57pm PT
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To combat sugar craving, have on hand and slice up fruit and eat it as a snack. Apple, Pear, Papaya, Starfruit, whatever. It's great for you and gets rid of the sugar craving.
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nutjob
Gym climber
Berkeley, CA
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Jan 17, 2012 - 06:05pm PT
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I will focus more on that. Come to think of it, lately I've been chowing lots of oranges and keeping them in stock at home, and I haven't had as much of an issue. I'll stay seriously focused on the fruit.
But I still need something for the bready sweet cravings. Sometimes fruit leaves me with a kind of hollow unsatisfied feeling that only bready stuff solves. Lentils/rice do come pretty close, but after a while it's not enough for me... bread cravings re-emerge.
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bergbryce
Mountain climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
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Jan 17, 2012 - 06:18pm PT
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I know the carb crave well.
I'm about 10 days into a pretty good try at eating a paleo diet. My current version of paleo basically means no grains, no sugar, no dairy, but lots of vegetables and (lean) meat, with more emphasis on the vegetables.
Breakfast was brutal the first 5 days or so. No toast, no carb-laden cereal, no potatoes, but now I'm eating maybe one egg with some spinach tossed in, a couple bits off our "brick" (a protein "cake" of sorts, but it's not sweet beyond the blueberries in it) and feeling full afterwards. I'm amazed that my afternoons are not spent craving my next cup of coffee because I'm coming down from some carb rush. My meals are incredibly healthy (eating large salads with beets, avocados, maybe some turkey or sardines) vinegar and oil and honestly the volume of food I'm eating seems way down which is very strange for me. My meals are smaller and I'm feeling fuller. I wish I could say that for my usual diet, which is really heavy on rice and beans. Been sleeping better too. Out like a freaking light.
You might try something like this. It takes some work, and the initial sugar and carb wean off period is unpleasant, but I'm liking the results thus far.
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goatboy smellz
climber
Nederland-GulfBreeze
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Jan 17, 2012 - 06:25pm PT
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Riley, I always thought you like to suck on mushrooms but never thought you would come out of the closet.
You have my deepest sympathies, I feel sorry for you, I better go get a bacon cheeseburger to make myself feel better.
Take care and have fun with those other limped lettuce people.
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Footloose
Trad climber
Lake Tahoe
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Jan 17, 2012 - 06:38pm PT
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You might try soy chorizo as a nice compliment.
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Jan 17, 2012 - 09:10pm PT
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When I need carbs and protein, I sometimes have a meal of baked teriyaki tofu. It has the consistency of ham, and delicious. Slices and you can eat it straight or in a sandwich with cheese, etc. One packet is a good meal. I buy it here at Safeway, and in the Valley they sell it at the General Store. Or you can make it yourself which is more affordable and throw in some sesame seeds! http://kosherfood.about.com/od/vegetarianmaindishes/r/tofu_teri.htm
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Jan 17, 2012 - 10:19pm PT
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If you're exercising, you will burn that tofu to ash.
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monolith
climber
berzerkly
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Jan 17, 2012 - 10:23pm PT
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Riley, here's a vid of Esselstyn talking about reversing heart disease. Pretty long, but covers a lot of details medical professionals like yourself would be interested in.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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bmacd
Mountain climber
100% Canadian
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Jan 17, 2012 - 10:31pm PT
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I really have to chuckle bout the delusions of vegetarianism, good luck with it ...
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nature
climber
Aridzona for now Denver.... here I come...
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Jan 19, 2012 - 12:06pm PT
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Studly - ya I have had some delicious tofu meals..
careful there mate. you'll develop man boobs.
I'm starting a two week cleanse today. my organs need a break. especially my liver.
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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Feb 10, 2012 - 04:12pm PT
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So, how's it working out?
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
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Feb 17, 2012 - 02:49pm PT
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As of today I am down 25 pounds and even jogged with my daughter last night. Starting to work out real hard.
Perhaps then you'd like to enter the abs contest with Hankster and me?
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=785760&msg=1748264#msg1748264
1st April 2012
The date is 1st April, not because it's april fools but because it's the start of the climbing season for many folks.
down 25lbs, ripped to shreds, so hard a cat couldn't scratch no part of you, you'd probably kick our asses for sure!
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S.Leeper
Social climber
somewhere that doesnt have anything over 90'
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Feb 17, 2012 - 06:39pm PT
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ya death to fat!!!!!!
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Feb 17, 2012 - 06:42pm PT
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148? How tall are you Riley?
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Feb 18, 2012 - 05:21am PT
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Your lean mass is probably more than 148, just sayin'....
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Meat is overhyped.
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Steve L
Gym climber
SUR
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Do I cheat?
A little with chocolate and a few bites of ice cream here and there.
You need to allow yourself some of these things from time to time. What's the point of going through all the effort to feel good if you can't have a little dessert now and then. And if that's your only indulgence, I very much doubt you would experience any adverse effects to performance or body comp. I'm nothing close to vegan, but I am very selective with what I eat. (No grains, legumes, or dairy; mostly veg, w/ high quality proteins and fats mixed in; nothing processed, etc.) The one area I break from that is eating dessert after dinner every Friday and Saturday. I love me the baked goods! I'm a serious addict though; anymore than 2 servings a week and I'll go on a serious bender of cookies, cake, ice cream, whatever. Sugar is worse than f*#king coke or booze. I don't keep any sweets in the house, and only buy what I will eat on those two days. No way I could ever buy a box of cookies to last over a few weeks. The entire box would be gone seconds after it was opened.
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Cave Creek, AZ
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We are omnivores by dentition and physiology. Just because a vegetarian diet that includes some animal fat and protein is good for you, doesn't mean a vegan diet is better for you.
Some of the most misquoted or misrepresented research I've seen is from vegans justifying their diet. This includes "The China Study." Just because eating a more balanced diet than the typical American diet is better for you, doesn't mean some extreme vegan diet is better. The Chinese aren't vegan. Eating vegan 6 days a week and then taking a day off doesn't mean you're a vegan; it means you're a vegetarian or an occasional meat eater. You don't have to eat meat to be healthy. Your body in the long haul does need some animal fat and animal protein. This stance comes from over thirty years of study, practicing functional medicine and clinical nutrition with patients, and writing for and teaching docs clinical nutrition.
Vegan diets are great as a therapeutic diet for some patients and can be used to good results for 3-12 months. Often, I won't work with a patient unless they are willing to use a vegan diet for a while. But, long term vegans don't look good on physical exam and lab results. They consistently show protein wasting and problems with protein and fat dependent systems. A common theme is neurological and immunological complaints in long term vegans that I treat. The vegans and the aorexics/bulemics end up looking a lot alike on their labs and exams.
The most scientifically validated diet is the Mediterranean diet. The benefit appears to come from the food quality and variety (it's not the pasta!). Food extremism, whether it's a vegan diet, paleo diet, or Standard American Diet (SAD), isn't the answer for long term health. But, extremism and dogma can be so compelling and moderation can be such a difficult path.
A great guideline for good diet comes from Michael Pollan:
1) Eat food (make sure it is actually food that you're eating)
2) Mostly plants
3) Not too much
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Standard American Diet (SAD)
+1!
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FRUMY
Trad climber
SHERMAN OAKS,CA
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I disagree strongly on the dentition part. Go look at your teeth, then a horses teeth, then a dogs teeth. Your teeth are designed to grind. You don't have fangs & your back teeth are not made to cut like a dogs.
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Cave Creek, AZ
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Frumy,
You have made some observations, but you still need to do your homework. Humans are an excellent example of an omnivore, both by dentition and by structure of the intestinal tract. Horses are an excellent example of an herbivore and dogs an excellent example of a carnivore. Yes, our dentition is different than a dog's as we are definitely not carnivores, though some of us like to wish we were!
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Read meat isn't bad for you.
However, green furry meat ....
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Cave Creek, AZ
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Riley,
Vegan diet is useful for reversing heart disease as a therapeutic diet (see Pritikin). Therapeutic diets are not necessarily useful long-term health maintenance or health-optimizing diets.
I have to go with the preponderance of evidence from the scientific literature and thirty years of clinical observation (physical exams, imaging, and lab findings) of actual patients. Not all people quoting science are scientists or of a scientific mindset. Misconstrued, misquoted, and cherry-picked science to to prove a prejudice is common. A rare and outlying bit of evidence or data that doesn't fit the preponderance of evidence is usually just an artifact.
Here is some reading on the Mediterranean diet.
Romaguera, D., et al, 2009, Adherence to the Mediterranean Diet Is Associated with Lower Abdominal Adiposity in European Men and Women, The Journal of nutrition.
Trichopoulou, A., Bamia, C. & Trichopoulos, D., 2009, Anatomy of health effects of Mediterranean diet: Greek EPIC prospective cohort study, BMJ (Clinical research ed.), 338, p. b2337.
Vanitallie, T.B., 2005, Ancel Keys: a tribute, Nutrition & metabolism, vol. 2, no. 1 p. 4..
Choi, S.B., 2003, Benefits of Mediterranean diet affirmed, again, CMAJ : Canadian Medical Association journal = journal de l'Association medicale canadienne, 169(4), p. 316
Benetou, V., Trichopoulou, A., Orfanos, P., Naska, A., Lagiou, P., Boffetta, P., Trichopoulos, D. & Greek EPIC cohort, 2008, Conformity to traditional Mediterranean diet and cancer incidence: the Greek EPIC cohort, Br J Cancer, 99(1), pp. 191-5.
Saura-Calixto, F. & Gońi, I., 2009, Definition of the Mediterranean diet based on bioactive compounds, Critical reviews in food science and nutrition, 49(2), pp. 145-52
Trichopoulou, A., Kouris-Blazos, A., Wahlqvist, M.L., Gnardellis, C., Lagiou, P., Polychronopoulos, E., Vassilakou, T., Lipworth, L. & Trichopoulos, D., 1995, Diet and overall survival in elderly people, BMJ (Clinical research ed.), 311(7018), pp. 1457-60.
Roman, B., Carta, L., Martínez-González, M.A. & Serra-Majem, L., 2008, Effectiveness of the Mediterranean diet in the elderly, Clinical interventions in aging, 3(1), pp. 97-109.
Toobert, D.J., Strycker, L.A., Glasgow, R.E., Barrera Jr, M. & Angell, K., 2005, Effects of the mediterranean lifestyle program on multiple risk behaviors and psychosocial outcomes among women at risk for heart disease, Annals of behavioral medicine : a publication of the Society of Behavioral Medicine, 29(2), pp. 128-37.
Caudwell, P., Hopkins, M., King, N.A., Stubbs, R.J. & Blundell, J.E., 2009, Exercise alone is not enough: weight loss also needs a healthy (Mediterranean) diet? Public health nutrition, 12(9A), pp. 1663-6
Toobert, D.J., Glasgow, R.E., Strycker, L.A., Barrera, M., Ritzwoller, D.P. & Weidner, G., 2007, Long-term effects of the Mediterranean lifestyle program: a randomized clinical trial for postmenopausal women with type 2 diabetes, The international journal of behavioral nutrition and physical activity, 4, p. 1
Dontas, A.S., Zerefos, N.S., Panagiotakos, D.B., Vlachou, C. & Valis, D.A., 2007, Mediterranean diet and prevention of coronary heart disease in the elderly, Clinical interventions in aging, 2(1), pp. 109-15
Mitrou, P.N., Kipnis, V., Thiébaut, A.C., Reedy, J., Subar, A.F., Wirfält, E., Flood, A., Mouw, T., Hollenbeck, A.R., Leitzmann, M.F. & Schatzkin, A., 2007, Mediterranean dietary pattern and prediction of all-cause mortality in a US population: results from the NIH-AARP Diet and Health Study, Archives of internal medicine, 167(22), pp. 2461-8.
Dai, J., Lampert, R., Wilson, P.W., Goldberg, J., Ziegler, T.R. & Vaccarino, V., 2010, Mediterranean dietary pattern is associated with improved cardiac autonomic function among middle-aged men: a twin study, Circulation. Cardiovascular quality and outcomes, 3(4), pp. 366-73.
Cereda, E., Malavazos, A.E., Favaro, C. & Pagani, A.M., 2005, Modified Mediterranean diet and survival: evidence for diet linked longevity is substantial, BMJ (Clinical research ed.), vol. 330, no. 7503 pp. 1329; author reply 1329-30.
Salas-Salvadó, J., Bulló, M., Babio, N., Martínez-González, M.Á., Ibarrola-Jurado, N., Basora, J., Estruch, R., Covas, M.I., Corella, D., Arós, F., Ruiz-Gutiérrez, V., Ros, E. & PREDIMED Study Investigators, 2011, Reduction in the incidence of type 2 diabetes with the Mediterranean diet: results of the PREDIMED-Reus nutrition intervention randomized trial, Diabetes care, 34(1), pp. 14-9
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morphus
Mountain climber
Angleland
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what's T got to do with veganism and where's Lois?
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S.Leeper
Social climber
somewhere that doesnt have anything over 90'
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she got the boot.
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Zfarm
Sport climber
Flagstaff, AZ
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Mark, question for you. I have heard this said time and time again that long term, a vegan needs to eat meat at some point due to "needing" animal protein and fat. Can you lay out specifically what that means? From my experience and research, you can find all of those via non-meat/dairy sources. People keep talking about animal protein like is has some magical property that doesn't occur anywhere else, this seems to be a very false assumption.
Being vegan for over 3 years now and having more social interaction with that community tells me that your personal experience you are talking about shows more about how most of the vegans I see are terrible at being vegan (Soy burgers/milk and breaded treats aren't good for anyone), not that it isn't viable.
Being a meat eater seems allows people to not have to focus on their diet as much due to the overabundance of protein and necessary fats, so when people make the switch it seems they just turn into soy replacement eaters and expect everything to go OK for them hence skewing the data and showing a vegan lifestyle to be long term unhealthy.
Your thoughts?
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monolith
climber
albany,ca
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The mediteranean diet has few animal products in it. Fish and poultry in small proportions a couple times a week is the norm, meat maybe once a month. The main part of the diet is plant based. So replacing the efa's in fish with healthier sources(ie no mercury, cholesterol) is a win. How could this change suddenly make it a poor long term diet? LOL. It's all in the details. One could eat vegan out of a 7/11 and be on a terrible diet.
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Zfarm
Sport climber
Flagstaff, AZ
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Monolith, you illustrate the point I was thinking. How does removing ingredients and replacing them with the exact same thing but a different source make it not sustainable? Again, what is this magical ingredient/compound in Fish that is so necessary?
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Cave Creek, AZ
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Zfarm,
My experience has been that many patients using a vegan diet will often (usually?) feel great when switching to the diet. Much of this can be attributed to a generally better dietary pattern than they had used previously, but much of it is likely due to the increased plant-based nutrients in their diet and taking the stress off their system by no longer overconsuming protein, fats, and processed foods.
The sweet spot for the therapeutic benefit, especially the cardiovascular benefit, decreased systemic inflammation (the C reactive protein improves), and better systemic pH balance seems to be around one year. After around one to two years is where I start to see problems show up.
When compared to omnivorous or vegetarian diet, long-term vegans tend to show the following issues - lower bone density, calcium, vitamin D, zinc, iron, selenium, chromium, manganese, and B12.
Though vegan diet usually results in a lower total cholesterol, there is often an associated lower HDL count (HDLs are protein dense). The homocysteine, a marker for inflammation, may be increased due to B12 need.
When looking at the lab findings from a functional medicine perspective using norms derived from healthy populations (subjects in the healthy subject group are pre-screened for inclusion based on history and physical exam), rather than norms derived from general populations, a few trends show up in vegan populations.
Common lab findings are a low white blood count (WBC), high mean corpuscular volume (MCV) indicating macrocytic anemia and B12 need (can be folic acid deficiency, but that is more common in meat eaters that don't eat enough raw vegies), a low blood urea nitrogen (BUN) indicating a need for more protein, a high globulin indicating that protein is being mobilized away from body storage (bone, muscle, organs) to maintain serum protein levels, low fructosamine indicating low protein (may account for the sugar and carb cravings in vegans), low alkaline phosphatase (very important enzyme throughout the body!) indicating low zinc, low T4 indiating protein (tyrosine) and/or iodine deficiency, low T3 indicating selenium deficiency, and low immunoglobulins. Not all of these findings are always present, though this is the overall trend.
I don't really see these trends so much, or rarely, in lacto-ovo vegetarians. Even a little butter (organic, pasture-fed, and preferably cultured) and occasional egg seems to be enough to improve the pattern. You don't have to eat meat to be healthy, hence the lacto-ovo vegetarian diet being a diet you can do very well on. The healthiest subjects in my practice, the most robust, have tended to be people who are primarily, but, not exclusively, vegetarian and this has led to my basic position about diet - whole, quality, unprocessed foods, freshly prepared, mostly plants, and lots of variety. From my experience, observation, and study, it looks like every limitation of variety decreases the potential nutrient pool and decreases, incrementally, the fullest expression of health.
Have a patient who is vegan/limited vegetarian who can't get pregnant and I talk her into getting more fats and protein, including some animal sources; gets pregnant. An athlete with a nagging injury that won't clear up - open up the diet and the injury clears up. It goes on and on.
And, there is the other side, too, where patients are living off of meat, corn, wheat, dairy, and slugging down chemical brews called soda (or energy drinks) and wondering why they're so sick (or their mate is wondering why they just keeled over dead). So, it's all in the balance. And, like a lot of things, the balance point ends up somewhere in the middle.
I don't think Monolith was saying you have to eat fish; he was just noting that fish is a common (and beneficial, in my opinion) component of the Mediterranean diet. His mention of being a "junk food" vegan is valid, but it's certainly not exclusive to one group. I will often have a patient tell me they only eat organic foods and then find, on closer history, all that organic food is made of frozen dinners and sweets!
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Zfarm
Sport climber
Flagstaff, AZ
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I appreciate the very thorough response. Of all the deficiencies you listed, do you feel that those cannot be obtained through a plant based diet or is it just more difficult and most people do not eat the variety needed and the occasional egg/meat/dairy helps close that gap. I understand deficiencies in those items you listed is a problem but is it a problem you find only able to be remedied by animal product consumption, because everything on your list can be obtained from plant products (minus the B12 due to it being a micro organism produced nutrient)?
I ask not to try and be difficult, but because you seem to have a pretty detailed understanding of the science behind what you are observing.
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BooYah
Social climber
Ely, Nv
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Vegan Humans are a Crime against Nature. She'll exact Her Due, you can be sure. Good Luck!?!
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Cave Creek, AZ
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Zfarm,
Yes, the variety is the key. It appears that every increment of restriction from the wide range of potential foods in our diet (here I'm only considering real food - not commercially grown on deficient soils, genetically modified, full of pesticides, overly processed, etc.) limits to some extent the range of nutrients for us to draw from. Given that it's hard to always have real food in our diet, we have to adapt to the stress of a polluted environment, and we are all born to some degree with inborn errors of metabolism that require higher than average intake of one nutrient or another, it's a good idea to have as nutrient dense a diet as possible.
It's not that you can't do it. Some proteins, minerals, and fats have forms/chelates/esters are difficult or impossible to get only from plants. For instance, there are around 12 different esters of vitamin A and some of those are only found in animal fats. Some people will be more sensitive needing certain forms of these nutrients based on their genetically determined biochemical individuality. With every restriction/limitation, you have to be more careful with your diet and you have to supplement more. At some point, it ends up contrived. If a diet can't sustain health over time without the requirement for extensive supplementation, it doesn't seem to meet the criteria for a healthy diet.
And, I get the ethical/moral/economic arguments to some extent, though a lot of them are shaky IMHO (we tend to be anthropomorphic about animals, yet we kill intelligent and conscious life when we eat plants; yes, we should not support abusing animals; no, I don't think using animals is necessarily abusing them). As Basho wrote, someday I hope be the fertilizer for the trees growing up through my bones, fair is fair. We could stand to see the bigger picture and use systems thinking to establish food production and consumption processes that are more sound as whole systems. As an academic and clinician, my stand is that a vegan diet is not sound nutritionally based on the science. Everyone has a right to their particular moral or ethical stand and eat as they want and have their biochemistry be congruent to that choice.
There is wisdom in traditional diets and we can do well to take that wisdom and incorporate it. There are no traditional vegan cultures (yes, there are a few isolated little groups that have a few vegans here and there; the exceptions confirm the rule). It is a modern construct.
Check out "Diet and Physical Degeneration" by Weston Price, "Nourishing Traditions" by Sally Fallon, and "Catching Fire: How Cooking Made Us Human" by Richard Wangham. These cover traditional ways of diet and food prep and the wisdom of them. Concerning the cooking - it is probably good to have most of your foods be raw; it is bad to have all your foods be raw (again the difference between an all raw food diet and a mixed cooked and raw food diet is the difference a therapeutic versus an optimal health maintenance diet.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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There are no traditional vegan cultures
That ought to tell ya something!
Why make a religion out of what you eat?
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BooYah
Social climber
Ely, Nv
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FOOD is a Holy thing.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Yeah
It takes water and plenty of horseshit to make it grow good.
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BooYah
Social climber
Ely, Nv
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You are connected to your food. You want to be a plant?
G'head. Have fun with that.
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BooYah
Social climber
Ely, Nv
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Blood beats Sap always. Eyes in front, many tearing teeth, smart= predator
Be a freaking cow. I don't care. But it's not congruent to the vessel.
Balance is what's key, anyway. All else is bullsh#t.
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Cave Creek, AZ
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Riley,
No I didn't. You're hung up on the false idea that I'm an advocate for people having to eat meat to be healthy and you're all emotional about defending your position. You're using an outlier from the consensus majority of the scientific community concerning diet to justify your position in a fashion similar to how some people will try to convince you that global warming is a hoax because they found a couple of scientists that say so.
What I have said all along is that the overwhelming preponderance of scientific evidence doesn't support a vegan diet as being a healthy long-term diet. And, my clinical observation from 30 years in practice doesn't either.
1) I never said you have to eat meat. I said that when you completely eliminate animal fats and proteins for more than two years there are problems that show up on physical exam and lab findings that confirm the diet is insufficient for maintaining optimal health. See my previous post about the abnormal findings common to long-term vegans. The issue isn't about absolute absence of essential nutrients; it is about the concentration and availablility.
2) I agree with Esselstyn about the usefulness of a vegan diet therapeutically for reversing heart disease, but it isn't essential. The markers of heart disease including cardiac calcium and arterial doppler can be changed without a vegan diet. HDL is not the only marker for cardiovascular disease, but it is a useful and important marker. The preponderance of evidence in the literature is still supporting HDL and cholesterol/HDL ratio as being useful.
The paper you cite of Esselstyn's makes a good case for his approach as therapy. He doesn't make a case for it as health maintenance. The Lyon study isn't the only one supporting the cardioprotective effects of a Mediterranean diet. Read the citations in my previous post concerning the Mediterranean diet and you will see long-term outcome studies making a case for that approach as being appropriate for health maintenance.
The population I work with may not be a group of subjects practicing a perfect representation of a vegan diet. My stand is based on a long-term and busy functional healthcare practice with a heavy focus on clinical nutrition. So, no, I don't have a vegan focused practice. But, my practice isn't based on my clincal observation alone. The science isn't supporting long-term vegan diet.
Undereating may be an issue in some of the vegan patients I've worked with. Low relative nutrient density and availability for the nutrients I commonly see deficient in lab findings is another likely issue.
Obesity isn't the issue we're talking about here. Just because I'm advocating a vegetarian or omnivorous diet as being healhtier than a vegan diet doesn't mean I'm advocating obesity. That's a red herring.
Egg Beaters Ingredients
Egg Whites, Less than 1%: Natural Flavor, Color (Includes Beta Carotene), Spices, Salt, Onion Powder, Vegetable Gums (Xanthan Gum, Guar Gum), Maltodextrin. Vitamins and Minerals: Calcium Sulfate, Iron (Ferric Phosphate), Vitamin E (Alpha Tocopherol Acetate), Zinc Sulfate, Calcium Pantothenate, Vitamin B12, Vitamin B2 (Riboflavin), Vitamin B1 (Thiamine Mononitrate), Vitamin B6 (Pyridoxine Hydrochloride), Folic Acid, Biotin, Vitamin D3
Egg Ingredients
Egg
Why would I eat an egg beater (processed food) when I could eat an egg (whole food)? Eggs are an incredibly nutrient dense food and all the good stuff is in the yolk - choline, inositol, lecithin, phosphorus, sulfur, iron, zinc, fat soluble vitamins (A, D, E, F, K)! The yolk is a great source of vitamin D and the tendency of people in our culture to avoid egg yolks is a likely reason for how incredibly common vitamin D deficiency is in this country.
And, about the cholesterol? It's good for you. You like your nervous system, your immune system, and your hormones, right? The problem comes from the sugars/carbs. My son-in-law went on an Atkins diet recently (another poor health maintenance diet!) and after he was on it for six months I checked his cholesterol and it was 120! That's eating nothing but meat, eggs, cheese, butter, and dairy. I told him he had to eat more carbs so his cholesterol could come up (long term ideal ~160-180). About 80% of the cholesterol in your system is typically manufactured from carbs in your liver and the statin drugs inhibit the enzyme that does that (and causes other problems, too). Most people have bad lipid profles from eating too much and most of that being crappy carbs.
Fish is typically good for your lipid profile as part of a plant-centric diet. The benefit is from the essential fatty acid profile.
There is a lot of dogma out there and the health care field is notorius for not being congruent or up-to-date with the research. Don't follow any one person. There are no real gurus; read, think, and follow your reason.
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monolith
climber
albany,ca
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Western A Price Foundation advocate a diet that is high in animal products, particularly red meat.
That's about as opposite of a mediteranean diet as can be.
Talk about cognitive dissonance, or are you trying to say WAPF is even more healthy than mediteranean because it has so much more animal food in it?
Learn about cholesterol, Mark. The body makes all it needs. No need for a heavy cholesterol diet like WAPF.
Hemp and flax seed are excellent sources of efa's, much better than fish which has mercury, cholesterol and saturated fat.
BTW Mark, I've not had any animal products for 17 years and only milk in cereal before that since birth and my blood tests are great. Please tell me when these horrible things are going to happen to me.
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Rick A
climber
Boulder, Colorado
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Interesting discussion, but that's not why I am commenting here.
Just wanted to say that the thread title is one of the best ever.
Carry on.
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Cave Creek, AZ
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Riley,
Nothing is wrong with Esselstyn's study that you posted a link for. I read it and he makes a great case for a vegan diet as a therapeutic diet for treating arteriosclerosis. It is the same type of protocol I will often recommend for patients with cardiovascular disease and it proves itself with follow-up heart calcium and carotid doppler studies in my practice. Read that and got on PubMed and read some more. Watched a video of him from his website. It all looks good as a legit appproach for treating cardiovascular disease and my clinical experience confirms that. Dr. Esselstyn has done good work.
I also see these changes to a less dramatic and immediate extent in patients on a Mediterranean pattern diet along with customized clinical nutrition and this approach works well long-term in patients I have monitored over the years. And, my clincal experience conforms to the preponderance of the literature.
There are a lot of systems and functions in the body that make it all work. The cardiovascular system is one. There is also the autonomic nervous system, neurotransmitters, hormones, the citric acid cycle, urea cycle, humoral immunity, digestion intestinal biosis, blah, blah....
My position is that I'm in practice to solve problems for and protect and optimize the health of my patients over time. To be good at that is to look at the science out there and the findings in front of me and utilize it to bring positive results to my patients. I like to keep honing what I'm doing by finding that what I had believed is now wrong, based on the evidence, and keep fine-tuning the work to make it more effective. That's my position.
Already answered the question on the "meat" in previous posts.
Research doesn't have an expiration date unless new research invalidates it. One of Dr. Esselstyn's published papers is from 1991 and another from 1995. Has their validity expired? The research that Hans Selye, MD did to develop our current model for stress is now over fifty years old, but still perfectly valid and essentially all research since Selye on the subject has further confirmed and developed the model.
Researchers have their published data, their interpretation of the data, and their opinion about the data. Over time, other researchers will confirm or dispute the model and then come to a consesus. Dr. Esselstyn has published some reseaerch that indicates his methods are useful for treating patients with heart disease. He has also brought up some questions about the role of monunsaturated fats in cardiovascular health and some studies supporting his question/position. It is one factor from the possible vectors in the Mediterranean dietary model that provide the positive outcomes noted in very large cohort, long-term studies. It's interesting and merits some research and thought; it doesn't drastically change the game, though it might in the future.
Yes, I do refer to the Mediterranean. Not because it is the only diet for improved long-term outcomes when compared to the Standard American Diet, but because it is the most studied and the the preponderance of the evidence and the consensus of the scientific community supports that it's a good one.
The challenge to publish studies concerning outcomes for long-term veganism is an interesting one. No I haven't published, though that might be worth pursuing in the future. It's a big project doing studies and I'm a clinician first and an academic second. For existing peer-reviewed papers presenting concerns for vegan diet, it's easy enough to go to PubMed and check it out.
The point about my son-in-law is a cheap shot. He is his own person and he has the right to make his own choices. Atkins diet has some therapeutic effect as a short term therapeutic diet, albeit limited and with a poor cost-benefit ratio. And, no, the Atkins diet is most definitely not a balanced diet. Yes, an 8:1 cholesterol/HDL ratio is big trouble. Cholesterol is neither good or bad. Too high or too low and and abnormal cholesterol metabolism is all bad for you.
This will be my last post, at least for a while, on this. I have a deadline for finishing a chapter, "Differential Diagnosis and Treatment of Systemic Disorders of the Pelvis and Lower Extremities," for a clinical reference book and have to do the data analysis for the heart rate variability data on a study to assess the effect on physiological stress in oncology ward nurses and doctors after a six week program of Iyengar-style hatha yoga. Prelminary data looks cool.
God, I want to finish that stuff up and go climbing!
PS Monolith, concerning Weston Price, the primary perspective is that traditional diets when caloric sufficient are fundamentally healthy regardless of the wide range of proportion between proteins, fats, and carbs or between plant and animal foods. The common ground is fresh, unprocessed, nutrient-dense, and varied. Some use the information as justification for a meat-based diet.
There is a lot to learn about cholesterol metabolism and we can both keep learning. Fats are about more than just the cholesterol, but also the fat soluble nutrients, essential faty acids, etc. Hemp and flax are good oils, as are others. The point about fish is a valid caution, though fish isn't our only vector for mercury exposure, it is an important one.
From a clinical perspective, I have to look to the geriatrics in my practice for long-term outcomes of lifestyle habits. So far, I have to give the life long robustness prize to two groups - very physically active first generation Mediterraneans (or their second generation offspring who have maintained their parent's lifestyle) and to rural American farmers who grew up doing hard physical work and have continued the habit and have (essentially) always eaten the food they grew or raised. Interestingly, the inclusion of meat, especially organ meats, bone, sinew, etc., has been a regular, if relatively small, part of their diet. This would go back to Weston Price to some extent. These two groups also continued to be physically active, eat (and drink) moderately, and live simply.
Addendum: Examples of the two groups that I mention above are a 72 year old Montana rancher/farmer I worked with a while back and an 80 year old Tuscan stone cutter. The rancher/farmer, at a sinewy 165 pounds, could peg a hand dynamometer at 200 lbs (the limit of the device) one hand at a time with both hands. The stone cutter supplied a sculptor friend of mine with marble when he was living in Tuscany and, according to his (I believe completely) trustworthy account, could carry blocks of marble up to 200 pounds while barely breaking a sweat.
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monolith
climber
albany,ca
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PS Monolith, concerning Weston Price, the primary perspective is that traditional diets when caloric sufficient are fundamentally healthy regardless of the wide range of proportion between proteins, fats, and carbs or between plant and animal foods. The common ground is fresh, unprocessed, nutrient-dense, and varied
Easily met on a thoughtful vegan diet.
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zBrown
Ice climber
Chula Vista, CA
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You cannot evaluate testosterone level without considering SHBG (Sex Hormone Binding Globulin) so y'all need to head back to the laboratory and get all your numbers.
As far as pullups go, are those fingertip with full arm extension on each one?
Oh yeah, what is an eldo prancer? Never heard it before.
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bmacd
Boulder climber
100% Canadian
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great observations and summaries Mark - I 100% agree with you
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namascar
Trad climber
Pasadena, CA
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I recommend the Pigan diet instead. It is high on pig products, tofu only in moderation.
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monolith
climber
albany,ca
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12 different esters of vitamin A and some of those are only found in animal fats
Better study up on vitamain A, Mark. You will find that the human body converts the carotenes to retinal, just like animals. If you have to rely on eating animals which have already done this, you've got something fundamentally wrong with you that needs addressing. Fruits have huge amounts of carotenes.
And I see you are stuck on the B12 myth as well. Look up the Framingham study and you will find that about 1 in 10 meat eaters are actually below the already low B12 deficiency level with many more nearby. It's a problem for all of us, as we don't live close to the earth anymore where we get our beneficial bacteria.
And relying on animals for Vitamin D is silly. It's much better to get your Vitamin D from the sun exposure. And again, low vitamin D is common across the spectrum of people living farther away from the equator. You just have to make the effort to get more exposure in the winter to offset, and load up in the spring/summer/fall.
And dairy is a major cause of osteoporosis, even after it's fortified with calcium. The acidic nature of animal products causes calcium to be leached from the bones to maintain optimum ph level.
And again, after 17 years vegan, I don't have problem blood tests, so it's hilarious when you say problems will develop after a couple years. One just needs to have an emphasis on eating large amounts of the most fantastic tasting and satisfying foods on the planet, fruits, greens, vegetables and the other lifestyle choices such as hydration, sun, activity, sleep and purpose.
And please tell us about the massive problems meat eaters have when they need to go to a doctor. Fair is fair right?
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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I think it depends in large part on climate. In the tropics there's more fruits,
vegetables, and sun. In the far north, if you don't eat meat, you'll starve if
you're living a traditional life. Humans have survived and thrived in both
those environments. As for modern humans, we have a choice. Just don't
get too religious about it.
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Actually you can be vegan or vegetarian anywhere in the world and be healthy. I agree that getting your Vitamen D from the sun is best! Do I have to post my photo of the Lifelong vegetarian ninety six year old woman finishing the Honolulu Marathon again? Vegetarian/Vegan folks just live longer and are way healthier. You could live on soda pop and candy bars and be veg and die early, but if you want to be plain stupid, not much anyone can do.
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justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
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I finally got around to reading this entire thread. Interesting to read both ends of the spectrum here. I'm totally nuetral on the subject, but it is of interest to hear the arguments since my current job is working the vitamin & supplement aisle at a vegan/vegetarian market. (I'm the lone carnivore in the department BTW)
I see a lot of vegetarians on both ends of the health-spectrum. Often by the time people are wandering down our aisle (if they aren't looking for something Dr. Oz recommends)they are having some kind of health issue, but as may have pointed out.. meaties aren't always the picture of health either.
I think it really boils down to discipline and the quality of the food you eat. Making sure to get what your body needs takes work. A lot of people do not have the discipline to balance their diet, so they are unhealthy and overweight. I see way less overweight vegetarians, but they definitely do exist.
Reilly- It sounds like this has been a healthy choice for you so good luck. Give us a ring if you are in the LA area.. I treat you to dinner at our vegan restaurant. :)
PS: As a side note, the meat-heckling there at the beginning was pretty entertaining.
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justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
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Oops- sorry I misspelled your name there. Meh. Bacon must be clouding my brain.;)
Yup- please call us next time you are in town!
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goatboy smellz
climber
Nederland-GulfBreeze
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How you doing Radical?
Are you still walking the vegan line?
I had some homemade crab cakes with organic poached eggs and grass fed pork gravy for breakfast and thought of you and the sacrifices you are up against.
Hope all is well.
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BuddhaStalin
climber
Truckee, CA
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After seeing this thread, Im off to eat a rare steak....for breakfast. Enjoy your veganiantastics.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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i have a book somewhere entitled french women don't get fat.
it was written by a frenchwoman who came to the u.s. for a year as an exchange student and, sure enough, her dad's honest, shocking reaction when she came back home and got off the plane was, "mais, you are so fat!"
so she detoxed. the first step? leek soup. that's soup made just with some leeks. a pure, true connection to a delicious vegetable, which always has a place in french cuisine, no matter how laden with saturated fat the foie gras. the heart of the cuisine is what's important. the heart of american cuisine, unfortunately, is unlean meat and starch, in the burger bun and fries. when you grow up with this as a child, it's your emotional home, and it's harder than hell to get away from it.
i've gotten reconnected with vegetables myself recently, through both gardening and foraging. at first it was difficult to get my family to trust the wild spinach, miner's lettuce, mustard, watercress, etc. i'd bring home from the dusty, polluted wilds of southern california. but we're surviving and, to say it plainly, it's downright fun. when you get done with dinner at skip's restaurant, riley, i'll take you on a "wild food adventure".
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/1721377/euell-gibbons
http://www.wildfoodadventures.com/
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Would actually love to eat a largely plant-based diet, but recently discovering I have kidney stones would appear to limit that possibility due to the high levels of oxalates involved with such diets. Kind of a bummer.
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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So Riley what do you eat? What fuel goes in the pack on climbing days?
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monolith
climber
albany,ca
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The oxalates are in the greens, which constitute a very small part of my diet, about 3% of the calories but still important. That's only one head of romaine plus assorted veggies for a salad in the evening. You can still go big on the fruit. Have a breakfast of entirely one kind of fruit. I'll switch between melons, bananas, oranges, mangoes. Helps to have access to good wholesale sources of fruit as buying off the shelf is not very convenient or cheap.
As for what powers me on climbing/hiking days: Dates. Soak them the night before in a couple water bottles. Also pit a bunch of them into sandwich bags. Easy to bring and consume 3k calories on the longer days. Dates can be ordered online. We are in the offseason now, but you can get reasonably good dates from http://eatdates.com, http://shieldsdategarden.com(bargains on seconds). But during date season(approx september to march) get them from http://7hotdates.com.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Did you devour books with leather bindings, Riley?
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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I'm glad it's worked so well for you Riley. I'm also glad that I am an ectomorph, food is so important to me I don't know if I could go on if I had to go vegan.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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A friend of mine is a big fashion photographer now in Charlotte, North Carolina and he just sent me this email:
>>> In a message dated X/XX/20XX 5:51:37 PM, Matt Mayes <mojokissphoto@XXXXl.com> wrote:
>>>the other girl's just ok. btw there are a lot of girls around here. the
>>>downtown is dense with music venues and bars, etc. lots of fit pretty
>>>girls. But the Carolina girls can be odd - like Trudy. She calls herself
>>>a backward vegan and she only eats food that has a face. but I caught
>>>her eating bear claws last night with a bourbon chaser. That’s harsh
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nature
climber
CO
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When I met Kari she was paying attention to her diet but not in the way I have been (for 25 years). She still eats meat every so rarely and may one day cut it out all together. She's been reading The China Study ( http://www.thechinastudy.com/ ) and that combined with the way I eat has her now eating less animal protein than I do. I just think that's hot all the way around. She's still working her way through figuring out what plant protein combos work without upsetting her system.
Keep it up riley... it's awesome you are working your way through this.
The proper diet will come to you - don't go to your diet as that's a recipe for disaster.
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WBraun
climber
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I'll tell ya what really kills Americans.
They over eat everything. Eat eat eat all day long.
The supermarket has so much sh!t in it, .... it's unreal.
Stupid Americans ......
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Thats very true Werner. Most of the stuff on our grocery shelves nowdays are illegal to sell in other countries.
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Sierra Ledge Rat
Social climber
Retired in Appalachia
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They key to healthy living:
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granstar
Social climber
Irving, TX
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Great job Riley! I miss those days when I was playing college basketball when
I could eat a pizza at 2 am and still lose weight because metabolism being so good. I was 200 lbs back then and at my height of 6'8" that was light, actually probably too much so playing in the post. But I had great energy and felt like I could run all day. Would happily give back another 20 or 30 lbs right now to get closer to that college weight lol!
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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I think that extreme diets like Vegan and fad diets such as Neolithic, Raw etc. are difficult for most people to maintain and, in some cases, even harmful. A balanced diet based on your knowledge of your body's needs and good nutrition seems to me to be the best way for most.
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granstar
Social climber
Irving, TX
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What you are doing with your diet is fine and admire you for it. My discipline is much better now with working out and still need more work with the diet. BTW I think I'll avoid the political and religious threads posted by Dr. F. - some pretty brutal, not so friendly posts in there lol!
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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I'll give you that Riley, not extreme but difficult for most, including me. Congrats to you for finding a diet that makes you happy and healthy.
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MikeL
climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
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a diet that makes you happy and healthy
Now that's the criteria to use.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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a diet that makes you happy and healthy
It should be noted those are two distinctly different things and one of the sadder realities of living is that not all things which make you happy make you healthy and vice-versa...
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nature
climber
CO
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healyje +1
and many are unaware of the latter. until it's going on too late at least....
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Take it from me healyje, when you reach a certain age healthy and happy become the same word.
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jmes
climber
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Yeah. Happiness derived from crappy food is pretty transient.
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nature
climber
CO
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jmes - yet so many "live" the life.
i think it was riley that point out we are the only nation in the world where the poor people are fatter than the rich people. There's no excuse except for really lame ones.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Donini: Take it from me healyje, when you reach a certain age healthy and happy become the same word
Nine years behind you and no sign of the convergence as yet, but then I'm Irish and they could be mutually exclusive on that basis alone...
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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I'm a quarter Irish, not enough to get me into trouble.
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Reeotch
Trad climber
4 Corners Area
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Hey, Reily, Nature and others, I just listened to this very interesting interview with this doctor about the harmful effects of wheat.
This is not about the wheat "allergy" many people claim to have these days. Nor is it about gluten. He's talking about the effects of wheat on blood sugar and some other stuff it does to your intestines.
If you have the time this interview is very worthwhile and worth researching further.
http://www.redicecreations.com/radio/2012/04/RIR-120429.php
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nature
climber
CO
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Thanks Rich... i'll check it out.
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MikeL
climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
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Nice thread, but a bit narrow, to my way of thinking.
Elsewhere on ST in some other threads, I've suggested that a purely scientific point of view may not always be completely helpful or wise on topics. It's interesting to read all of the data and studies on diet and body chemistry, but those studies are forever incomplete. For one thing, human bodies can be remarkably different from one another, and it's pretty tough to generalize about what works and what doesn't work for specific individuals. There are just too many variables to consider.
As for diet, I've been vegetarian for 20 years, and moderation seems to be the key. Although it can be tougher to keep weight on, I find that there are benefits to being lighter and leaner (mainly higher energy for me). As for strength, I am 5'7", 65, 145 lbs., do sets of pull-ups of around 20, squat 225-235, and mountain bike in the mountains regularly. Sure I'm not what I was, but who is as they get older?
Exercise is a part of the equation that people are not talking about here. If you exercise enough to stay hungry all the time, I think you can eat anything anytime. Use exercise to stay hungry.
But these are just the physical components of health. What about emotional, psychological, spiritual parts of "health," especially as it relates to age (which is what most seem to be referring to)? Diets and exercise won't get you there. And where is "there" anyway?
As Locker and Skully remind us regularly, we all die. Is the issue about living longer (as most of the posts seem to imply), or is it about living a quality of life, a life that's worth living?
Recently (since the early 1960s), there has been an increasing number of studies on happiness and age. Seligman has been prolific in this area, and among other researchers (Etcoff, Kahneman, Gilbert, Ben-Shahar), Vaillant's (see his book, "Aging Well") work at Harvard has compiled 50 years of data closely watching three cohort groups (Harvard grads, inner-city disadvantaged males, and intellectually gifted women) as they aged. Here's what makes old age vital and interesting.
Vaillant discusses the important adult developmental tasks, such as identity, intimacy, and generativity (giving to the next generation), and provides important clues to a healthy, meaningful, satisfying old age. Health in old age, we learn, is not predicted by low cholesterol or ancestral longevity, but by factors such as a stable marriage, adaptive coping style (the ability to make lemonade out of life's lemons), and regular exercise. . . . Vaillant posits that successful physical and emotional aging is most dependent on a lack of tobacco and alcohol abuse by subjects, an adaptive coping style, maintaining healthy weight with some exercise, a sustained loving (in most cases, marital) relationship and years of education.
To return to diets, I used to be macrobiotic for 7 years. We quit because the diet was anti-social. We felt great, but we couldn't share meals because the diet put others off or we couldn't find restaurants that made balanced local organic meals from scratch. (Sharing meals is an important dimension to eating, albeit perhaps science types won't view it that way.) So we quit.
However, macrobiotics and a love for making food for others taught us two important things. One, the kitchen is a sacred place. The kitchen is where we sacrifice other life for our own. Secondly, we discovered that almost every food has its particular effects (e.g., yin and yang). That is, we learned to use the food in our cabinents and refridgerator as medicine. Too high and need grounding? Go for the yang. Too aggressive or rigid? Go for the yin. Not enough sleep or energy? Go for the greens. Etc. It's of course easy to see with alcohol, caffeine, chocolate, sugars, etc., but there's more if you pay attention.
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Reeotch
Trad climber
4 Corners Area
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MikeL, I think many of us climbers, being health conscious and interested in maximizing athletic performance, have found the mainstream food choices inadequate. A lot of this interest and experimentation with diet stems from the recognition that many of the chronic diseases that are becomming more and more common (cancer, heart disease, obesity, diabetes, arthritis, chronic fatigue) are being caused by environmental factors.
The way our food is produced these days is more about quantity than quality. Homo sapiens have existed on this planet for at least 200,000 years. Think about how radically our diets have changed in the last 100 years or so, since the industrial revolution. Even the agricultural revolution is only, what, about 6 to 8000 years old. Our bodies have not had time to adapt to such a drastic change in an evolutionary sense. That's why I think there is a lot of wisdom in the idea of a "neolithic" diet
I guess I have a bit more faith in the ability of scientists to continue to refine our understanding of how food affects our health. The challenge is to separate the scientific wheat from the chaff, so to speak . . .
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Reeotch
Trad climber
4 Corners Area
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eKat, Yeah, I'm a huge redicecreations fan. I really appreciate Henrich's open-minded approach. It is important to stay open to all sorts of possibilities. Mental yoga . . .
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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This has the tone of religious/political threads but without the hostilities. Many ways to go on the diet front, a lot of conflicting info. amd everyone pretty much have their minds made up.
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MikeL
climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
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I guess I have a bit more faith in the ability of scientists to continue to refine our understanding of how food affects our health.
Reeotch, I may have the same faith, but as I attempted to say in the first line of my post, I see other things that go into the equation, too.
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zBrown
Ice climber
mercenario de merced
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Has anyone read Super Immunity by Joel Fuhrman? It's a full frontal attack on poor nutrition and poor health. In his opinon a complete overhaul of food habits is in order. What I'm trying to figure out is whether significant benefits can be obtained without the commitment to the total change he advocates
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michaeld
Sport climber
Sacramento
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Anyone done DMT?
I hear that changes your life too.
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zBrown
Ice climber
mercenario de merced
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^ Oral or suppository? The folks I knew who took it did not fare so well, but then neither did those who took too much alcohol.
EDIT: DMT was popular for about 2-3 weeks in the second half of the Sixties, even drug dealers swore off it. Just did some checking. Apparently there a large number of academic types still experimenting with it. Oral and supository probably don't work without a poteniator (MAOI) but the smoking and injecting methods do for about 3-4 hours.
Interesting, some dead horse (ha ha) comes back to life.
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michaeld
Sport climber
Sacramento
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Smoking. Oral sounds like a fun little trip from what I hear. 4 hours, easy up, fun float, easy down.
Smoking sounds like 10 minutes of WHAT THE F*CK UNIVERSE IS THIS?
Watched a Documentary on it last night. DMT: The Spirit Molecule.
When you get Ph.D.'s and Doctorate mother f*ckers of all professions telling you how awesome it is, can't be too afraid.
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nature
climber
CO
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This has the tone of religious/political threads but without the hostilities. Many ways to go on the diet front, a lot of conflicting info. amd everyone pretty much have their minds made up.
I disagree. Yes, many have their minds made up to either do something about it or knot do something about it. But what I observe is those that have decided to do something about it are very open-minded about how to approach and change their diet. It's a learning process and adapting based on experience and additional information can change ones approach.
Hell.. If I was still sticking to the vegetarian diet I was once following that had a lot of tofu I'd be running a 38 triple-D bro by now. Instead I now hardly eat any tofu. Coconut products are now a big part of my diet. Rich's link will have me re-evaluating wheat now for different reasons than before.
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nutjob
Gym climber
Berkeley, CA
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Jun 25, 2012 - 09:01pm PT
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eKat, thanks for calling more attention to this. I'll check it out, though I'm fearful of giving up more wheat things I like. Raisin Bran was my favorite cereal years ago, and paying attention to my body reaction (low gut pain) that seemed closely related to it was why I stopped eating it.
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ms55401
Trad climber
minneapolis, mn
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Jun 25, 2012 - 09:04pm PT
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my personal experience, which runs about 12 years of strict vegetarian diet, and now is vegetarian-leaning but with lean cuts of steak, turkey, chicken, dairy, eggs, yogurt, fish. Put another way, about four days out of seven I eat as a vegetarian.
anyway, for an active climber, I think it's possible to optimize with a vegetarian diet, but it's very, very easy f*#k up and have bad results. It takes a lot of forethought and discipline to do it well. And if you do it well, the results at best are only going to be a marginal improvement. Think sending 5.11c instead of 5.11b.
However, it's pretty hard for this active climber to f*#k up with a well-rounded diet that has meat in it. You don't have to put much thought into it, don't have to be terribly disciplined, and you'll still have power to crank and endurance to push through a Grade IV day or two.
If I were a man of leisure and could plan my day free of work and errands, I probably would be strict vegan. But because I work 9-10 hours a day and have other chores in addition to climbing and other activities, it's just healthier me to be near-vegetarian.
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FRUMY
Trad climber
SHERMAN OAKS,CA
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Jun 25, 2012 - 09:29pm PT
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Well on the lighter side there's the Margret Thatcher diet --- A couple shots of whiskey, spinach, & four eggs a day. Now that will get you is shape ( down to climbing weight ) real fast.
She really did this diet to get her weight down for a state picture.
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MisterE
Social climber
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Jun 25, 2012 - 09:29pm PT
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This wheat thing was covered years ago by world-class micro-biologist and converted dietician Barry Sears: The Zone Diet.
Basically, as Rich says, humans are not adapted to glutens. It can take thousands of years for the physical adaption of new dietary additions that the "primitive body" is not adjusted to.
Glad it helped Kathy.
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
merced, california
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Jun 25, 2012 - 09:56pm PT
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Agriculture is not the norm for primates. Wheat is not the breakfast, lunch or dinner of champions. Meat is good if it is cheap. Otherwise, keep the dietary faith of the ape, the monkey, the lemur. Some bugs taste like hell, but go a long ways to keeping you handsome, strong as Kong, and tasting good yourself for when it's your turn.
Having lost 42 pounds (3 stone) in the last year and a half with little exercise, I can say that consistent diet is the single most important thing we can do to get healthy, unless being way overweight is healthy. Donini and I have finally reached common ground. No more beefing.
Good reading and music make it into the regimen, too.
And lots of "The Taco."
Good health, you all.
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LilaBiene
Trad climber
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Jun 25, 2012 - 10:08pm PT
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I haven't had a chance to read the whole thread yet (got lost on the testosterone detour...), but wanted to chime in on the wheat debate -- actually, the grain debate.
For 22 years, I was a fish and dairy eating vegetarian. Whole grains were a big part of my diet. Beginning in my early 30s, my health started to tank. I couldn't figure out what was wrong. In a handful of years, I couldn't sleep except for a few hours a night. I'd always eaten really healthily, gotten plenty of exercise, but something was REALLY wrong. Several more years later, I was a complete mess -- no sleep, no energy, depression, overall body pain that had started morphing into burning sensations in my hands and feet. Doctors told me over and over there was absolutely nothing wrong with me. I was beginning to believe them.
A year ago I stumbled on an article about fibromyalgia that said anecdotally, some folks had benefited from a gluten-free diet. (I rolled my eyes and thought, "Yeah, right. Just another way to get a 300% mark-up on food.") But the alternative was a bunch of drugs with really nasty side effects and no guarantee I would feel any better. Plus, the outlook was that I would spend the rest of my life on prescription drugs, something I couldn't fathom (especially without a diagnosis of an illness). I also couldn't imagine not being active anymore -- that was the worst of all.
So July 7th of last year, I went gluten free -- 100% for the first two months because I couldn't figure out how to do it otherwise. (Now I eat the equivalent of maybe one bowl of rice per week, if that, mostly because no grains works the best for me.) The first week I felt HORRIBLE. The second week I felt my energy returning...and the third week I felt like a new person. I started sleeping 8 (!) hours per night. No joke.
I accidentally stumbled on what was making me so sick -- I had undiagnosed celiac disease. (Note: If you even suspect you may have celiac disease, get tested for it first -- it is difficult to test after-the-fact. And, if you do have CD, and you accidentally eat gluten after an extended period of being gluten-free, your body's reaction might be horrific. Take it from someone that learned the hard way.)
Also, I should mention that I follow an individualized supplement program, but as the months have gone by, I've been able to cut back on these, as well.
Figured I'd share this because I was probably the last person that thought a simple change in diet could make a world of difference.
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MisterE
Social climber
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Jun 25, 2012 - 10:22pm PT
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Great story, Lila - from my experience, the rice glutens and sprouted wheat are easier to digest than the processed wheat and rye glutens (including durham wheat pasta). It may be a function of processing, but especially rye glutens can be dangerously poisonous to some people.
Glad you found your allergy and changed it.
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
merced, california
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Jun 25, 2012 - 11:35pm PT
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Simi has treated me to a new and tasty alternative to wheaten sandwich bread.
It is a sodium-free product as well.
I'm pimping Ezekiel 4:9.
http://www.foodforlife.com/our-products/ezekiel-49
So good and filling. And I now look forward to eating a much higher grade of sandwich than Michael Phelps, but he gets paid for his endorsement. There's that little matter of the difference in our gold medal count, but I think he might do better on EZ49, if that's humanly possible. Oh, yeah, he and Alex and Hans and the rest, too. What if they are all aliens?
Werner: Not so stupid?
Another great post from Our Oddrey Girl. Thanks, a votre sante!
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LilaBiene
Trad climber
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365 days of gluten sobriety -- never imagined those words coming out of my mouth -- but here we are...my first anniversary.
Maybe I'll do something really wild to celebrate, like, oh, I don't know ... change my avatar.
:D
Edit:
Really digging the Vega line sports nutrition products.
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Daphne
Trad climber
Black Rock City
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Ri have you checked out the book Thrive by Brendan Brazier? It is a vegan Nutrition guide to Optimal performance in sports. Brazier is a Ironman triathlete.
i am in my 4th week of the vegan life. I feel good!
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Daphne
Trad climber
Black Rock City
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I'm working on it. My research said an alkaline body (vegan) is crucial for bone making so i hope to be whole soon. I'm almost off the crutches.
I know what you mean about weight loss-- just a few too many nuts and seeds and the scale doesnt move. I'm on almost no grains whatsoever. But that entire bowl of olives i ate last night at a party were vegan. But caloric :(
Climb something with a nice hand crack for me will ya? xo
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Daphne
Trad climber
Black Rock City
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I might be able to do easy slab in September. Maybe we can do the big sleep at shuteye ever been there? Awesome area!!! I've lost a lot of muscle and havent been cleared for pt yet. My calf was a floppy thing when he doc cleared me for partial wb. I'll update you on 7/18 when the airboot comes off.
I'm supposed to limit nuts and seeds to 2 oz per day and have no oils and very small amounts of cocnut/avo. The olives and the tortilla chips were vegan but off my plan completely. A slip. I am not doing Esselstyn though. My chol levels are normal. I'm looking for bone health and some weight loss. I probably need more sunshine though.
It will be fun to climb vegan with you! I will make some of the Thrive recipes for us :)
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LilaBiene
Trad climber
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Jul 19, 2012 - 05:50pm PT
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Hey, I'm trying to figure out the energy thing, too. Let me know if you have success!
Figured out over the last couple of weeks that no grains is the way to go & no cheating. "( No more Pirate's Booty for me. Is there a God?
Been thinking about the meat issue in inflammation, too. Going to try to stick to fish for a month & see if it makes a difference.
Thanks for all of the ideas & inspiration!
P.S. The Vega sports nutriton line includes energy & recovery, too. Haven't tried these yet...
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LilaBiene
Trad climber
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Jul 21, 2012 - 09:13pm PT
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Hey, cool - thanks!!!
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gonzo chemist
climber
Fort Collins, CO
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Jul 27, 2012 - 11:16am PT
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Riley,
I think Steph Davis is a vegan. She might have some valuable info on her website about the vegan diet and maintaining performance. I haven't really read through her website much. But it might be worth looking at.
http://www.highinfatuation.com/blog/category/veganism/
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Jul 27, 2012 - 12:19pm PT
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She is.
So, apparantly is Bill Clinton, these days...
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nutjob
Gym climber
Berkeley, CA
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Aug 10, 2012 - 04:24pm PT
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Damn... I've been flirting on the edge of this wheat-free thing for a while, tapering down and starting to experiment with wheat-free products but not really committed yet. I'm just in denial about what it's costing me in terms of health (gut pains: check; arthritis: check; psoriasis: check), but afraid of what I'll have to give up.
If I keep hearing these stories it will be difficult to maintain my state of denial.
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LilaBiene
Trad climber
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Aug 24, 2012 - 08:54pm PT
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I just found a great snack -- Brad's Raw Leafy Kale -- I would have walked away from it had it not also been called "Vampire Killer".
Found my way to a few raw things because they seem to be the only foods that contain no grains and no soy -- not an easy hunt.
My 3-year-old gave them the mmmmyum thumb's up and walked away with the container... ")
Hoooooo, they're TASTY alright!!!
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murcy
Gym climber
sanfrancisco
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Aug 24, 2012 - 09:16pm PT
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My kid is in charge of our eating restrictions, and we're vegan at the moment. Please post up recipes for hearty meals with good protein!
Here is one that we like:
Dal Palak
Makes about 8 cups
1 large onion, diced
2 packages (about 16 ounces) white button or baby bella mushrooms, roughly chopped
2 medium-sized red or white potatoes, cubed
1 inch fresh ginger, minced
6 cloves garlic, minced
2 teaspoons coriander
1 Tablespoon garam masala
2 teaspoons red chili powder
1 28-ounce can of diced tomatoes
10 ounce bunch of spinach (or more if desired!), cleaned and cut into ribbons
1 cup red lentils
3 cups of water or broth
1-2 Tablespoons salt
3-4 scallions, chopped
Heat one tablespoon of olive oil in a large dutch oven or soup pot over medium heat. Add the onions, the mushrooms, and one teaspoon of salt, and cook until the onions are translucent and the mushrooms show spots of golden brown. Add the potatoes and another teaspoon of salt, and cook until the edges are just starting to turn translucent.
Clear a space in the middle of the pan and add the ginger, garlic, spices, and one more teaspoon of salt. Cook until the garlic is fragrant (30 seconds), and then stir the spices into the mix. Add the diced tomatoes in their juices, the spinach, and the lentils. Stir to combine everything and then top with three cups of water or broth.
Turn the heat to high and bring the soup to a boil. Once boiling, reduce the heat and let the soup simmer for about 45 minutes until the lentils and potatoes are cooked through. Taste the soup to adjust the seasonings and salt. Stir in half of the chopped scallions, reserving the rest to use as garnish.
Serve dal along with rice, naan, or chapatis.
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Daphne
Trad climber
Black Rock City
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Aug 24, 2012 - 11:40pm PT
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^^^ Let's just rule out the obvious: do you stretch every day, religiously?
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Aug 25, 2012 - 12:03am PT
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^^^
I think I'd be looking at my shoes, stride, and training/recovery regimen long before looking at minor diet tweaks for what you have going on.
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Aug 25, 2012 - 02:05am PT
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Go for the 2nd Gen Vegan diet - only eat things that are vegan. Avoid apex predators.
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monolith
climber
albany,ca
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Aug 25, 2012 - 10:01am PT
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Lila, kale chips are vegan junk food. Don't be fooled into thinking they are healthy. Marginally better than potato chips.
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Daphne
Trad climber
Black Rock City
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Aug 25, 2012 - 12:01pm PT
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"Dick": I am running off for the day, but I would start with the coffee/caffeine. You can research this, as I did.
It constricts the blood vessels, which is bad for healing extremities, and creates a very acidic environment in the body, which is one major cause of inflammation. Grains can be inflammatory as well-- all grains, not just grains with gluten.
Also, you are very deficient in vegetables according to your sample diet. Where are your brassicas? One leafy green and one brassica a day, plus other vegetables. The beans are more protein/starchy and don't count as vegetables. It looks like your dinner is great but your lunch isn't all it could be.
Have you looked at Dr Fuhrman's Eat to Live program?
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Aug 25, 2012 - 12:23pm PT
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W/O coffee, why be alive?
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Aug 25, 2012 - 12:42pm PT
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I could fly to the moon before I could sustain a Vegan diet. I watch what I eat....no processed food, plenty of veggies and fruit, and lot's of fish with the occasional bison steak for protein.
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nita
Social climber
chica de chico, I don't claim to be a daisy.
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Aug 25, 2012 - 02:11pm PT
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W/O coffee, why be alive? Yep..+++
.......I started drinking coffee when i turned 40..... don't know how i survived all those mornings waiting tables at Tuolumne Lodge.......
I"ve never been a vegan, but was a vegetarian/gunkatarian for 17 years....Gotta say, giving up wheat is the best health decision i have ever made......I've had several positive outcomes from it.
It's been easy and i don't feel deprived ................ rye crackers have replaced my bread use.
edit: Ghost, Love... those two sentences....(-;
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Aug 25, 2012 - 02:36pm PT
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I started drinking coffee when i turned 40..... don't know how i survived all those mornings waiting tables at Tuolumne Lodge
Coffee and chocolate are at the very foundation of existence. One makes it possible to get up in the morning, the other makes it worthwhile.
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Daphne
Trad climber
Black Rock City
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Aug 25, 2012 - 04:50pm PT
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I used to say I needed coffee to be able to make coffee. It took months for me to recover my normal high energy level after I gave up coffee/caffeine. I saw a science video on coffee that said that in habituated caffeine drinkers, a bit before you regularly drink your coffee the body starts producing the substances that will neutralize the caffeine. That explains so much.
It took a serious injury to get me to consider getting off caffeine. It was after my injury that i went full on vegan too.
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monolith
climber
albany,ca
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Aug 25, 2012 - 05:06pm PT
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You might be undercarbed. Replace those nuts for breakfast with fruit, like oranges or bananas. Nuts are not health foods and should not be a staple. I buy fruit by the box. 10 blended oranges, or about 6 bananas for breakfast, sometimes melons. I have absolutely no cravings for coffee or chocolate.
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LilaBiene
Trad climber
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Aug 25, 2012 - 05:09pm PT
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Dick - Do you have hypermobility?
Reason I ask is that I was diagnosed with it about a year ago (along with celiac disease), and was really surprised at the range of things it can affect. Because with hypermobility the tendons/ligaments are not doing their jobs containing movement within "normal" ranges, muscles have to pick up the slack. Muscles get sore and contract/spasm, which then irritate things in and around attachments to tendons/ligaments, which then throw off things in other areas of the body...leading to more muscle spasms, etc.
I've had a running (no pun intended) battle with my achilles tendons in both heels for years, and have popped my calves over and over. I've also had surgery to release my IT band and have a love/hate relationship with my foam rollers. What seems to have helped was to STOP stretching, and learn to get the lead out in the pool as opposed to running trails. (Don't even think for a minute that I'm okay with no trail running!)
Prior to being diagnosed with celiac disease, and after 22 years as a fish-eating vegetarian, I also went back to choking down some meat from time to time because I came to the same conclusion about aminos. (It didn't make any difference.)
Eliminating grain from my diet wasn't fun, but I feel better than I ever have in my entire life, for what it's worth...
P.S. I've subbed Icelandic Sirius 70% chocolate for coffee in the morning. ")
P.P.S. The kale chips are raw - and really, really good. My list of permissible not-made-from-scratch edibles is so short at this point, I'm not letting go of 'em! They've got FLAVOR...something I sorely miss!
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karodrinker
Trad climber
San Jose, CA
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Sep 16, 2012 - 05:32pm PT
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Awesome! Dandelion greens are awesome, they clean your bowels and replace the potassium.
Here's a green tip, ARUGULA. Makes a mans refractory period shorter, meaning you can bust more nuts.
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crasic
climber
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Sep 16, 2012 - 05:36pm PT
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(When I have the money) I eat a pound of steak a day along with up to half a gallon of milk and 6-12 eggs (lots of veggies in the stir fry's and omlettes, but its for flavour not primary nutrition). When I have the money to sustain that diet and work out I feel better then any other time of my life, full of energy, the high amount of protein is amazing (up to 200g a day), and I drop weight like crazy. When economic necessity forces me to beans and rice (metaphorically speaking) I feel like sh#t.
Point is, veganism is not inherently healthier then meat eating, but a properly planned diet (in either form) is healthier then an unplanned diet.
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WBraun
climber
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Sep 16, 2012 - 06:31pm PT
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The best diet in the world is don't eat anything at all.
Slow your heart down to 1 beat and 1 breath per day.
You'll live a very long useless life ......
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Daphne
Trad climber
Black Rock City
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Sep 16, 2012 - 06:34pm PT
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I love the baby kale, banana and blueberry smoothie I make. I add some goji berries and some flax or chia or hemp seed, I am satiated and happy.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Sep 16, 2012 - 07:22pm PT
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Great to hear how losing weight is easy and that you feel much healthier. Body types are different....in my case, losing weight is not the issue, keeping it on is. I feel that I eat a healthy, balanced diet- heavy on fish with plenty of veggies, fruit and grains and NO processed food.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Sep 16, 2012 - 07:27pm PT
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Daphne, doesn't baby kale deserve to grow up, like the rest of us?
Edit;
Poor Baby Kale, the veal of the spinach family.
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crasic
climber
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Sep 16, 2012 - 07:38pm PT
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And your gourging, when you have the means, and the fact that you feel good is about the worst arbiter of health I can imagine.
Gorging?
Its balanced at 2500-3000 calories (depending on day), that is less then my daily expenditure when I'm training for weight lifting. When training for swimming phelps eats a 6K diet.
A pound of steak is under 800 calories, and basically pure protein. Half a gallon of skim milk is ~1000, 6 eggs is 500. The various veggies I cook everything with account for another 300 plus the minerals that are less plentiful in animal products. Full amino acid profile, plenty of all vital minerals, plenty of fats of all types (in before "hurrrr saturated fats are bad!!!111").
Do you want the rest of the nutritional breakdown as well?
Get your head out of your ass.
Next your going to tell me that dietary fat is bad.
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Daphne
Trad climber
Black Rock City
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Sep 16, 2012 - 08:13pm PT
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Jay, that was seriously funny.
Riley-- my heel kind of sucks today-- I overdid it and unlike you, my diet has tanked in the last 2 weeks. I am really feeling the inflammation today. But tomorrow, I am back on the straight and narrow path of vegetable righteousness. Heil Broccoli!
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monolith
climber
albany,ca
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Sep 16, 2012 - 08:34pm PT
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Better do some research on protein, Crasic. High protein diets are associated with cancer and other diseases. Protein is highly over rated.
More myth busting:
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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S.Leeper
Social climber
somewhere that doesnt have anything over 90'
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Still vegan, Riley?
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S.Leeper
Social climber
somewhere that doesnt have anything over 90'
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just another reason to lay off sodas.
I have to admit, I had an energy soda today, but they are getting further and far between.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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I was wondering about that too....
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justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
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Glad you're back on the greens. I made an accusation about you being off the wagon over in the stupid Peru thread but it was buried under 3 full pages of psychotic rantings by Damnitclimber in no time flat. Funny... I was actually right LOL./
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tooth
Trad climber
B.C.
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Funny how you hear so much about how vegans can't get enough protein, but I have never seen one suffering from a lack of protein. However, the majority of healthcare spending could be removed if people were vegan!
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TheTye
Trad climber
Sacramento CA
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For the haters:
The Honnold just went Vegetarian on his way to Vegan. If you are convinced that you will wither away and die, monitor him... and a variety of ultra endurance athletes like Rich Roll... and a handful of elite MMA fighters
If The Honnold peels off a 5.12 free-solo in the next couple months then mayhap I will reconsider.
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TheTye
Trad climber
Sacramento CA
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Oh, and advise-wise, I always feel best when I'm getting an obnoxious amount of greens (Kale, Collards, Mustard)
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enjoimx
Trad climber
Yosemite, ca
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Apr 14, 2013 - 11:29pm PT
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 16, 2012 - 02:27pm PT
I've just in the last 2 weeks learned all the science behind green smoothies - been playing with juicing for about a month also.
But this greeen smoothie thing is amazing concerning how much nutriton we are talking about.
I have never dropped weight so easily - it is much easier and quicker than being a general vegan. You are much fuller.I had been told this by a few docs before but hadnt paid attention.
And I am getting much more protien into myself with the larger amounts of greens and the fact that the cellulose is already busted up.
I feel it..
But the greatest thing is that I can eat everything now. I hate cooking.
But now I can walk into a store and be eating any green vegtable i want in a few minutes.
My favorite so far has been a Cilantro smoothie.
I'm going to make a Douglas Fir Needle smoothie on my days off - i have the recipe.
And if I can find them I am going to make a Dandelion greens smoothie.
And if I can find stinging nettles still I will also do that...lol
riley
Juicing. What about the problem of removing fiber from the vegetables and fruits? The fiber in these foods helps prevent the spike in blood sugar. When you juice, don't you end up with high calorie product that is void of dietary fiber?
Any thoughts on problems with juicing? Reason I ask is because I want to get a juicer but not sure if the health benefits are actually that astounding. Read some articles that claim juicing isn't as amazing as some claim. I guess that is the nature of nutrition in general though.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Apr 15, 2013 - 12:10am PT
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Would consider it, but the greens are out for kidney stones and the whole legume family doesn't sit well gastro-wise...sigh.
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Captain...or Skully
climber
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Apr 15, 2013 - 12:14am PT
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I think one should just have a sensible, balanced diet.
Vegan, Schmegan.
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monolith
climber
SF bay area
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Apr 15, 2013 - 12:15am PT
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Yes, enjoimx you are right. Fiber is important to slow down the absorption but also beneficial bacteria in the gut feed on fiber (soluble and insoluble), so blending over juicing is preferred. The only time I will juice is if I'm making a couple of liters of orange juice and greens. I'll juice a few oranges, then in a blender, add in lots of greens, followed by the rest of the oranges. When some say they are juicing, they often mean they are making juice by blending.
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McHale's Navy
Trad climber
Panorama City, California & living in Seattle
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Thanks for this thread gang. I'm going to be watching it along with Ed H's new Climber Visionary thread. I'm 70-80% there on the food thing and pretty lucid on the vision! It's all good and inspiring. Climber as Visionary - Climber as Vegetarian!
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kennyt
climber
Woodfords,California
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YER ALL GUNNA DIE !
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McCfly
climber
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Jun 28, 2013 - 12:04am PT
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Now that is funny.
Been vegetarian on and off most my life. Been doing the vegan thing for 3-4 months now and loving it. I never felt so good and i have always lived odd mostly fresh fruits and veg and whole grains. Loosing the dairy and processed sugar has been a huge difference in how I feel.
For those whom struggle with weight it may be something to consider. Seems to me pretty much impossible to gain much of any if any weight living on fruit vegetables and nuts.
And my pallet has not suffered for the cause. Pretty easy these days to find killer recipes on the net these days.
Oh yeah no caffeine, mind altering chemicals, drugs or alcohol.
One of my favs so far..
http://ohsheglows.com/
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LilaBiene
Trad climber
Technically...the spawning grounds of Yosemite
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Jul 23, 2013 - 09:56pm PT
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Yikes...I have debated back and forth about asking about this, but I could really use some input from folks with experience. Anyone ever battled SIBO?
Two years ago I went grain-free and felt absolutely fantastic for a year and a half, until I was exposed to gluten at a restaurant about six months ago. Since then, my body started rejecting one form of protein after another and I'm a mess of muscle spasms without remorse. I tested positive for SIBO last week and am currently on a rediculously expensive round of antibiotics.
Weary of fiddling with and adjusting my diet constantly, I've been working with a phenomenal nutritionist. I'm presently waiting for the other shoe to drop indicating the necessity of yet another major overhaul of my diet (it's coming after the antibiotics). I've read quite a bit about PALEO, GAPS, etc., and will of course follow the recommendations of my doctor and nutritionist, but wanted to ask whether anybody has any suggestions. If they take away most of my carbs, how the heck am I going to fuel for e.g., my longer-distance swims, trail runs, etc.?
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jgill
Boulder climber
Colorado
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Jul 23, 2013 - 10:49pm PT
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This entire thread is very strange. For many years I ate a can of tuna daily for lunch. Served me well.
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Weird it is. But hey, what we put in bears a lot of responsibility for what comes out. I just had a gastroenterologist put me on a "FODMAP" diet that eliminates wheat, most dairy, and many fruits and vegetables. It's pretty hard because it also removes many alternatives that I would naturally substitute for a bread/pasta-centric diet (e.g. lentils, beans, tofu or soy products). Also, many "wheat free" pre-made products include chickpea flour or other stuff that is excluded by the diet:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FODMAP
This appears to be a catch-all plan when they haven't zeroed in on specific culprits or diagnosis for intestinal inflammation.
I've been doing it for about two weeks now, and here are my observations so far:
1) I eat a lot more chicken and turkey because I haven't figured out how to feel full and satisfied after every meal without eating wheat.
2) The "wheat free" and "gluten free" pre-made cookies in the grocery store are expensive as heck and seem like they have other junk in them that just excludes wheat. Doesn't seem like real food, and I feel more guilty eating it than the satisfaction I hope to get by eating it.
3) Giving up yogurt makes a big hole in my diet... I have tried to fill it with a type of Kiefer that is "99% lactose free" which I presume means it has 1% lactose and I shouldn't be eating it, but I do anyways.
4) I caught a cold / chest infection from my son in the days before the dietary change. I haven't been able to kick this chest infection for two full weeks. Lame immune system in relation to dietary changes?
5) Overall I eat dramatically less bakery junk food. I'm probably going to lose weight even though I don't have that as a goal (I'm 6'1", 165 lbs). I'm just learning to cope with that constant craving for "something" that I can't figure out. I used to fill it with yogurt, Trader Joe's coffee cake, bread & jam, apple sauce, oranges. I can eat none of these things now except oranges.
6) Best food I've had is a carbonara variation made from: brown rice pasta; egg whites; parmesan cheese (which is allowed in moderation); peas; turkey bacon. It's a fairly normal seeming meal that my kids enjoyed eating too (they didn't notice the difference from the way I used to make it with normal wheat pasta and regular eggs).
7) I took the kids to get ice cream yesterday (didn't have any myself), and I found perhaps as much pleasure (if not more) than they did when I treated myself to a couple of oranges. Heaven!
8) Trader Joe's gluten-free brownie mix is not bad. Not good as regular ones, but they do a passable job to address baked sweet cravings (if a bit over-chocolatey and bitter).
I definitely need some inspiration for shifting my diet, and figuring out what kind of stuff I can eat to fill those continual gnawing cravings. I tend to munch/graze and this topic is always close to my consciousness now. I am awaiting a FODMAP cookbook, we'll see if that helps. By posting here, I postponed checking my cabinets by a few extra minutes.
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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My girlfriend is vegan, any recipes to recommend? I saw the link upthread, just curious if anyone has something great that they make.
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Jgill said: "This entire thread is very strange. For many years I ate a can of tuna daily for lunch. Served me well." Tuna must have more mercury now than back then John. No one recommends a can of tuna fish daily as anything other than a way to loose all your hair due to mercury poisoning. Really. Tuna is OK to eat, but moderation is the watchword, especially for kids.
The claim "Your Tuna Is Getting More Toxic
Federal study: Tuna and other Pacific fish has 30% more toxic mercury than in 1990 and will grow 50% more contaminated by 2050.
http://www.thedailygreen.com/environmental-news/latest/tuna-mercury-47050102
...and as if on cue the inevitable litigation "Man Sues BumbleBee Tuna, Grocery For Mercury Poisoning
It's an American tale that never gets old: man makes bad decision. Man suffers consequences of said decision. Man sues. In this latest telling, a 48-year-old BMW salesman from Westchester is suing Bumblebee tuna and his local Stop & Shop for his 10 can a week tuna habit, saying it left him with mercury poisoning. "There was tuna in my diet every day, just about," Lee Porrazzo told the Post. "I thought it was the cleanest source of protein." Hopefully he wasn't planning on doing theater any time soon.
It's unclear whether he was eating the solid albacore or the chunk light variety, but EPA and FDA data say anyone over 150 pounds should at most be eating one can of albacore every nine days or one can of chunk light every three days. Porrazzo said he and his roommate stocked up on the stuff because it was "usually on sale," and commercials advertised it as heart healthy. His suit claims that after two years of his tuna diet, his blood mercury levels were 23 micrograms per liter, twice the normal amount. He said he's had to stop working out and has lost over 30 pounds."
http://gothamist.com/2010/10/19/man_eats_absurd_amount_of_tuna_gets.php
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anita514
Gym climber
Great White North
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Brandon: veg chili
I make the tomato sauce with finely diced carrots/celery to give more texture, sometimes throw in some of that fake 'ground round' stuff, onions, peppers, all kind of beans, spices and eat on its own or with some bulgur or rice, etc.
actually might make some tonight.
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Thanks eKat, I'll give that a try.
Giving up soy milk is also hard for me- that and Yogurt has been my main calcium source for decades. But I just tried almond milk, and it's pretty good (actually a little too close to cow milk for my taste!). Rice milk is like a watery sugary nutrient-free void.
I am allowed to eat strawberries and blueberries and bananas (as long as they're ripe enough to have spots). I see a lot of almond milk strawberry blueberry banana smoothies in my future.
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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Good idea, eKat, I'll have to try that. (The kefir and berries)
Vegan is super hard to cook. It's the little things that get you, IMO.
Edit; Wait, I just wikipediaed kefir, it doesn't seem vegan to me. Inoculated cow and goats milk? What's that mean?
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McHale's Navy
Trad climber
From Panorama City, CA
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I went into retro-grade this year on my Bishop trip and ate a whole can of spam by myself. I wanted to share but nobody would have anything to do with it. I just had to try some of the new stuff. This one was 'Hickory' flavored. I heard a story on NPR about SPAM and just could not shake my hunger! Fortunately I broke my ankle, probably because I ate SPAM, and am taking better care of myself now.
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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So, it's not vegan.
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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Vegetarian, but no dairy. Nothing that comes from an animal. It's super restrictive.
I love bacon.
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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I've been staring at an unopened 42 oz bag of peanut M&Ms. The red guy and the yellow guy are looking at me. They are calling me. But the damn ingredient list shows that they ADD lactose to it, so much that it is listed before peanuts as an ingredient! (lactose is a no-no with my present FODMAP diet).
The bag remains sealed. I've won the battle for now, but the war rages on.
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anita514
Gym climber
Great White North
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send the M&Ms to me. I'll send you the postage.
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karodrinker
Trad climber
San Jose, CA
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I love butter, as long as its grass fed like Kerrygold. I cook eggs in it, meat in it, mushrooms and veggies in it. Even blended it in coffee. Figure if your burning the calories, then no biggie. I'm not getting fatter at least!
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