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AP
Trad climber
Calgary
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Always interesting to watch people at Red Rocks on their first multi-pitch, some with huge expedition packs. One time I was starting off on Dream of Wild Turkeys and 2 guys (one Aussie, one Canadian) were waiting for a couple to make progress on Prince of Darkness. This couple took about 20 minutes to get their shite together on a fixed, hanging belay. The Aussie started saying things in a loud voice like "At least we are as good as we think we are". He shamed the others into retreating.
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tornado
climber
lawrence kansas
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Right on Coz!
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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I agree. God damn those people who just haven’t fully adapted. I mean with a stick even. J-Do is right again. Damn! I think though, we need to pause and learn from J-Do’s peerless examples to really benefit from his specific wisdom here.
(1) He is the only climber who has had all his cams re-anodized to blue, regardless of size. Its true.
(2) In line with his Calories In Calories Out dictum, he singlehandedly wiped off the academic map the now anachronistic yet wide-ranging disciplines of psychiatry and psychology; this was an immense and humane act of his for which he is rarely recognized and thanked.
Of what does J-Do really speak? Pilgrims, here it is, the insidious multipoint anchor that now has all the Great Lakes threatened, the Mississippi Delta, and which has already wiped out most of the ecoculture of the SF Bay where the Striped Bass is on its last legs; the Sturgeon too.
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marty(r)
climber
beneath the valley of ultravegans
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I've been hearing lately that the era of patient apprenticeship has ended but from what I can tell, there are some mentors out there that, while well-intentioned, are endangering their friends.
This past summer the anthill that has become Cathedral Peak had no fewer than 12 parties climbing at once in one afternoon. One party of three had an able-bodied leader with two followers in tow, each carrying full packs with Thermarests. I believe they ended up calling for but not needing a rescue while another climber in separate team partially dislocated his shoulder, lowered down several pitches, and walked out. The chimney had a line four parties deep with fine route alternatives to either side.
Regardless of the number of pieces in your anchor or the matches in your pocket, the mountains are for everyone. But not every route fits every climber.
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Peter, it's heartwarming to see redundance done right, although I'm a little disturbed at the sight of so many perfectly good cams going unplugged. I'm also worried about whether the system is properly equalized. It seems there may be pieces getting more than 1/25 of the total load, which might be disastrous in case of a factor two fall onto the toilet paper rolls.
Speaking of those rolls, two may be good enough for experienced defecators like Donini, who has taken more mountain dumps than 99% of the Super Topo user base and does his grade IV's and V's with a 1.5 liter hand sanitizer pack and a role of TP wrapped around his waist, but it isn't right to suggest to noobs leaving the indoor restroom for perhaps the first time that they too ought to manage with just two rolls. That's like suggesting a mineral oil enema to a suicidal irritable bowel syndrome sufferer.
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Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
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To answer Floyd: who asked this question a few posts back
Why the emphasis on speed? I climb for fun, not for speed. I can see why it's necessary to climb fast on a long multi-pitch climb if you want to finish before dark or a storm blows in. But on shorter multi-pitch climbs, why rush? I agree that slow parties should allow faster parties to pass, but what's wrong with enjoying the scenery without suffering from hunger, thirst and cold?
This is a valid question to many in these sport climbing times.
Floyd: In the old days, rock climbing was considered practice for real climbing in the mountains, and eventually the "major ranges."
Rock climbing was intended to hone skills needed to climb "Big Mountains." Speed & efficiency was to be learned and enhanced by doing longer, and more difficult rock-climbing routes.
I realize that "speed & efficiency" does not mean much at your local crag, and if you have no desire to go do longer routes: you can continue to enjoy a leisurely outdoor activity.
Unfortunately, you may encounter some climbers that want to quickly climb the route you are having fun on.
So it goes.
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KlimbIn
climber
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Noob here. I can probably count the number of multi-pitch I've lead/been on without taking of both shoes. I'm scared so I don't on MPs unless they are 2 or more grades below my level, or have a solid/mentor partner to lead and setup the harder pitches.
And I mostly agree with what Mr. Donini stated but overall Mr. Cosgrove sums it up quite well.
"Too much (way too much) gear. If you THINK you need something you don't: if you KNOW you need something you do."
Agree when Donini describes gear as shoes, excess water, food etc. Carrying the right amount of safety for the job can be learned outside of climbing. Doing long hikes, or backpacking teaches what's too much, and when you cut it a bit too close. So maybe the advice is to learn that somewhere else than a wall. However at this stage in my experience I can't have too much climbing gear. Having the right nut or cam when I WANT it (not necessarily when it's really needed) means the difference between uhming and ahing for 5-10 minute before a difficult move. I don't have the experience yet or testicular fortitude to just run it out on an MP. If I'm sketching I'm slow. For me more climbing gear means less wasted time.
"Too much (way too much) time building belay anchors and going from "off belay to "on belay."
Guilty. But getting better. Realizing now that one bomber sling around a tree or formation, with a single emotional backup is better that wasting time equalizing, and trying to remember all the Building Anchor advice. But when confronted with something I haven't seen before, something that's not in my anchor repertoire; I'm slow. I place 3 pieces (sometimes 4). I check them; I equalize; I check it again. Why? Because I don't have the experience and I don't want to hurt myself or my partner.
Something that wasn't mentioned here is rope management at the belay. Oh god the clusterf*#ks; one would think a simple strand of rope would be simple but how the hell does it get so tangled up and doesn't do what you want it to.
"No sense of urgency. Bring a watch- dammit!"
100% agree here. Unless I'm completely confident in getting off any time I want; I have one aim and it's to move fast. That unfortunately often supersedes the "I am here to have fun" aim. Once I'm back down safely I can call it fun. Until then all is at stakes. Again I think that knowledge can be gained by doing other things than climbing; hiking 20 or more miles in a day, backpacking, biking long distances, etc.
But as Coz says "Climbing is hard to learn and easy to die, take your time, be safe, and don't feel pressured on your first multi-pitch, bring way more than you think you need, because you're a beginner and not qualified to know the difference."
And that's the thread through my whole writing. You got to lead and do multi-pitches to gain the experience to do them efficiently. You can't gain the experience if you die while doing it. So unfortunately noobs who want to keep climbing and learning should be slow and over-protective.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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So unfortunately noobs who want to keep climbing and learning should be slow and over-protective. And try to find good mentors.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 6, 2011 - 12:44am PT
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Bottom line- do it, don't just read about it and bring some common sense along.
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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So unfortunately noobs who want to keep climbing and learning should be slow and over-protective.
I think this is true. When we grouchy old curmudgeons were noobs, we blundered our way up stuff too. I recall an ascent of the East Ridge of Nez Perce which involved getting off-route onto the North Face, dropping a pack that was loaded with with everything needed for two weeks in the Himalaya, then getting benighted and spending the night near the summit in t-shirts while the temps dropped below freezing. I was so wrecked from shivering all night that it took me ten minutes of jumping up and down (holding on to an anchored rope) before I had enough balance to even walk.
The difference between then and now is that we didn't have the Wyoming All-Star Climbing Team breathing down our necks. Those guys were off on things we weren't ready for yet. Now the same noobs as us start up some mega-classic and hold up a string of World Cup Finalists who are out for a relaxing morning of enchaining seventeen grade IV's before lunch.
No one is to blame here, although both ends of the spectrum might be a little inconsiderate (recalling that consideration for others wasn't really supposed to be a major component of the climbing experience). The problem isn't so much noobs building three-point anchors as it is just population density. There are too many damn climbers on the rock, and they end up getting in each other's way.
Here's what I think. The noobs and the experts need to stay off the super popular routes on super popular days. The star system and classic climb beta stream have turned certain admittedly marvelous routes into teeming anthills, as someone said upthread. You know you're gonna be on a conga line for a lot of these routes. If you're a noob, you'll be holding everyone up. If you're an expert, you'll be fuming at all the incompetence. Are we having fun yet?
Sometimes the experts can pull some tricks. Bragg and I went up to do Crimson Chrysalis on a miserable day in March with glowering clouds scudding low across the crags and a cold wind howling through the canyons. We were the only party on the route and, as far as we could tell, the only party in the canyon. This was during Spring Break and when the sun came out the route filled up with parties on every pitch and more parties rapping down on top of them. A gust nearly blew Bragg off one pitch and we had to cower below the final summit scramble for ten minutes waiting for a lull in the gale, but we might as well have had the whole range to ourselves as far as encounters with other climbers were concerned. It was a good day.
Back in the Gunks, we had one of the most crowded Columbus Days on record this year. The West Trapps lot was full and closed at 8:30 AM on Saturday. I wasn't going to go anywhere near the Trapps Zoo, so headed out to Millbrook with two visiting Canadian friends. Noobs don't go to Millbrook. Neither do quite a few non-noobs. The crowds are kept at bay by an hour or so of walking, a long rappel, a hair-raising scramble along the Death Traverse Ledge, the need to climb out, and the manifold uncertainties of a steep and forbidding crag with virtually no fixed anchors anywhere and no dotted chalk lines to show the way. On this beautiful but most packed of days, we shared the crag only with the turkey vultures and hawks spiraling silently on the updrafts while peregrines swooped and chattered.
One of the things that I've found from this approach is that there are a lot of one- and zero-star climbs that are really pretty good. If you are a noob, you can bumble your way up in peace and learn your craft at your pace rather than someone else's, and you don't have to feel bad about causing a parking lot on the freeway. If you are an expert, you'll be surprised at how good some sections are, and will enjoy actually figuring out the moves, protection, and route, rather than phoning them in by memory reinforced by countless previous trips.
The noobs will climb and get better, the experts won't blow a gasket, and everyone will have those ineffable experiences that climbers think of as fun.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 6, 2011 - 01:06am PT
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Interesting, just climbed with Bragg today in Eldo. Weather just marginal enough to keep the crowds down. Yes, go slow and be conservative but use your brain. No, you don't need a 15 lb. pack on a two pitch climb. No, you don't need to carry approach shoes when you're going to rap the route. No, you don't have to build intricate belay anchors when natural options are next to you. The list goes on... there is a difference between being cautious and just not thinking things thru. I love it when I see people top roping with two belay devices, belay gloves, cordelettes, and a nut tool hanging from their harness.
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giegs
climber
Tardistan
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Threads like this are why I only aid solo 5.4s.
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john hansen
climber
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I think that some of these people might think that if they leave their stuff at the base of a climb it will be stolen.
typical city folk.....
I never saw anything wrong with just a hip belay, with no pro, if you had a really solid stance.
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ME Climb
Trad climber
Behind the Orange Curtain
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I have not been climbing very long and do not get to climb very often. That being said my learning curve has been slow. I have been blessed with good mentors and pay attention to what they say. I have placed gear and built anchors. I will always choose the big healthy tree before looking to place gear in a crack. I know for me safety is a huge deal for me. My problem is I don't have the practical experience of being able to quickly look at the terrain and grab the right piece the first time. All that being said....I would much rather be on a 5 easy placing gear than struggling to climb and place gear at the same time. Once I am more proficient with placing gear and building anchors I will work on harder routes. But in the mean time I truly enjoy climbing long easy routes.
Until I get more "seat time" I will do my best to stay out of the way of faster parties.
Eric
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mike m
Trad climber
black hills
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Go to the Needles. Hundreds and hundreds of moderate to easy trad climbs. No lines on any of them. Can do most with a fairly limited rack and you will scare yourself silly if you try to bite off too much. Seems like everyone that just starts trad climbing thinks they have to start on 5.9 or higher because that is all the lower their ego will let them dip. There is something about climbing comfortably and swiftly on 5th class terain that you will not get to enjoy if you start out with routes over your head. You might need to climb 5 number grades below what you do in the gym. You might just realize that these routes below 5.7 are cool, a whole lotta of fun, harder than you think, and teach you things to make you comfortable on harder grades.I would imagine that most older traditional areas have many of these routes as well. Do you climb to have fun or do you climb to impress others? You will have more fun if you have a good base IMO.
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TWP
Trad climber
Mancos, CO
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I want to second Hanson's comment:
"I never saw anything wrong with just a hip belay, with no pro, if you had a really solid stance."
This is often key to developing a stance and getting "on belay" for the second in a heart beat as opposed to the time-consuming tyranny of thinking TWO pieces of GEAR are ALWAYS a MUST. BS. The only "must" in alpine, multi-pitch climbing is finishing the climb (hopefully in good style — before sunset, the weather breaks, fatigue/thirst overwhelm the body, etc).
I also feel that hip belays for the leader offer advantages over the modern belay devices.
To wit: when belaying the leader a stance/hip belay with these elements is an excellent multi-pitch technique.
1. Belayer short ties to the belay anchor so belayer can't be pulled off-stance when catching a fall;
2. Route the running end to the leader through a carabiner at the waist, then around hip. This increases angle/friction on the catch.
3. Sit down;
4. Use the terrain of the stance creatively to brace the body through the strong muscles of the back and legs to resist the direction of anticipated force.
In other words, make your body stance an additional strong point so that in the event of a fall, force is not transferred to the "belay anchor" at all. An anchor that never receives force can never fail.
One more advantage: one can yard in rope far faster (and with less energy) with the hip belay as opposed to an arrangement putting a belay device between the belayers two hands.
The gear centric, Nazi mentality of modern climbers toward old-fashioned hip belays deters me from deploying these techniques except with climbers of long pedigree.
I can't wait to hear the howls of protest from youngsters against my prediluvian thinking. (I don't tweet or text either; my daughter created my Facebook page without my consent). (I learned the strength of the sitting hip belay from an Exum guide in 1969; too bad this technique is now lost art).
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phylp
Trad climber
Millbrae, CA
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I'd like to add a few practical observations:
1. I have also noticed that the thing which takes my less experienced partners the most time is their obsession with equalizing a three piece (or four) belay. It's not my place to recommend whether you want to use 2 or three pieces, but equalizing can be done in 10 seconds with a sling and circle-link device sold by Trango - I think it's actually called the equalizer. I use it and like it a lot. The sliding configuration allows for 2 or 3 pieces to be equalized.
2. You do not have to take the time to set your "up" pull piece of the belay until the second gets to the anchor. They may have cleaned from the pitch while they are seconding, exactly the piece you need for your bomber "up" placement.
3. Re 2 piece "down pull" belay anchors: One often has the opportunity to set a bomber piece just before pulling onto the belay ledge or stance. If you have a ton of gear left, place that piece. It's a good backup if the anchor placements are a bit suspect.
4. If you are at a hanging belay and need to coil the ropes back and forth over your stance, coil each successive loop slightly shorter than the one previous. That way, when the leader starts up the next pitch and you are feeding out the rope, the loops on top are much less likely to catch underneath the lower loops and pull them into an impossible knotty tangle. I hadn't been doing much multipitch climbing recently until my October trip to the Red Rocks and forgot this myself until I was reminded by my own messy tangle.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Fewer gizmos. Learn how to use a minimum set of tools as they are intended in max number of situations. The corollary: minimize dependence on single purpose tools.
Understand the strengths and weaknesses of your ropes/'biners/cams/nuts/slings.
Reduction Ad Absurdum: donini's single #3 Camalot. Or so I thought until Thursday's TR of Lone Pine Peak
http://www.supertopo.com/tr/South-Side-Lone-Pine-Peak-Serrated-Ridge/t11244n.html
Learn the BASIC mechanical forces in a belay and protection placements. Every good book on climbing shows it. Understand it. Then you can minimize your use of the "three piece anchor", instead using smart two or even 1 piece anchors. You'll also know when you REALLY need that Sea of Dreams 8 Rurp belay!
There's nothing wrong with the sitting hip belay in many circumstances. This was impressed upon me this summer watching an Exum guide belay clients down a short 5th class section on the Grand Teton.
Something that I think has been overlooked but was drilled into me by my mentors: As the second cleans gear, she should re-rack it as well as possible. This can really shorten changeover time. Use the racking sling instead of your gear loops to rack gear. Each item on your gear loops has to be taken off and handed over one at a time.
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YoungGun
climber
North
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This is pretty... well... you read:
http://www.ottawaclimbing.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=925&p=7109
Last weekend K8, Jonathan, Celine and I decided to go climbing in the Adirondacks. There is a lot of beautiful climbing in the Keene Valley area. Our plans were to head out early Saturday morning, get down there around mid-day, set up camp at the Alpine Club of Canada camp site at Keene farm, then have a relaxing day afternoon of climbing Saturday. Sunday we would climb Gothic Arch, a 6-pitch 5.6 slab climb up the south face of The Gothics. Then Monday, we'd break camp, and climb something close to the road with an easy approach and drive home.
Saturday went just as planned -- up early, meet up and load up at Jonathan's and on the road by about 7:15am. Pleasant drive down, amusement at the border guarders (K8 has a "golden ticket" -- that is, a US passsport.) Find the camp site, setup, drive back to the pull out and hike in to the beer walls. We lost the trail and did a bit of bushwhacking -- but not a problem. We even ran into another crowd of Ottawa folks (Glauco, Bertrand, Craig and a 4th who I didn't previously know and whose name I have forgotten.) Then a pleasant dinner, a beer (for the other 3) and to bed.
Sunday was The Gothics. It is a 4800' peak, and the climb on the south face we were doing (Gothic Arch) was a 6-pitch 800' climb, no pitch harder than 5.6. The guide book listed the approach as "3.5 hours, difficult". Jonathan figured they'd given a conservative estimate -- and that it might only be 3 hours in; I was less optimistic and thought probably 4-4.5 hours. So we got up a little after 7am, made breakfast, packed lunch, chose gear, packed up, etc and were on the road by about 9:45am, found the parking and started hiking by about 10:30am. I figured 4.5 hours in, climbing by 3pm, 5-6 hours climbing the cliff, and we might be hiking out in the dark -- but along a trail with headlamps, not too bad. The hike in goes about 3.5 miles up (continually up, though not steeply, a gain of about 800') a road, then leaves the road and becomes a trail. The trail starts at Lower Ausable Lake (about 2000') and climbs up over Pyramid Peak (4500') and then down into a col. We bushwhacked down a ravine (about 200' vertical), including some 4th class bits (that we rappelled down), then found the base of our climb. That was about 4:30pm. So, it took us about 6 hours to do the 3.5 hour hike in.
At this point, up the cliff really is our way out -- we're in an interior valley, and civilization is back over the ridge and down. So, I start leading up the climb -- and it is gorgeous climbing. A bit run-out in places, but beautiful rock, interesting moves, and just good climbing. I'm about 4 pitches up, and have done about 650' of climbing and the sun has gone down at the start of the 4th pitch and it is starting to get noticeably dark by the end of the 4th pitch, and the other pair is about a pitch behind me. So, we start talking about how to bail. The last 2 pitches are shorter than the others -- only about 150' total, but they're a lot steeper. I consider climbing them, and leaving a top-rope for the others, but as soon as I actually take a look at them, I decide no way do I want to try and climb (and route find) up that section in the dark. So... we can traverse to the side of the cliff, where there are trees, and maybe scramble up that. I lead that traverse (maybe 80') in the fading then dark -- placing gear as much by feel as site. (Celine, my 2nd, forgot to pack her headlamp, and she wanted the headlamp for cleaning.) That was one of the most... interesting leads I have ever done! Once I'm across, K8 and Jonathan have caught up to Celine at the last belay -- though K8 took a lead fall on no gear on the way up; luckily on quite non-steep rock, and she managed to catch herself with a fist-jam under an overlap she was falling beside.
I bring Celine, then K8 across the traverse, them just unclipping, then reclipping the gear, so the next person can just follow easily. Jonathan comes last, cleaning the gear. In the middle of cleaning one of my pieces, he knocks his headlamp off. We watch it skitter down the face a 100' or so. He ends up leaving that piece behind, and finishes the traverse.
So, we're all sitting in some trees, on steep terrain, probably about 200' of bushwhacking through dense, steep, brush from the trail. It is about 10pm, full dark, and we have 2 headlamps for the 4 of us. We're dress for hiking and climbing on a sunny hot mid-summer day. I was wearing the most clothing, with a very light long-sleeved shirt and pants. (I like those for protection from the sun, scrapes on the rock, and from branches when bushwhacking.) Everyone else was in longish shorts and tank tops. We had no food by this point, little water, and no preparation for spending the night. But, the idea of bushwhacking up this very steep terrain, possibly with sections of open rock, with enough light was even worse. So, we decided to bivouac (bivy) for the night.
We found the largest open space we could, tied in to the trees and started huddling together. After a bit, and getting colder, especially as the wind blew, Jonathan figured that covering us with cut pine boughs would help. So, he cut a bunch of them, and threw them over us. This did help, but of course the terrain was steep enough that every time we shifted they would slide off us and often out of reach, so the layer slowly diminished over the night. And the ground was both steep and uneven, so there was no such thing as a comfortable position. We huddle closer and closer as the night wore on, shivering more when the wind blew, as it did more and more towards the end of the night. About the most reassuring thing was that every time we looked up, we could still clearly see stars in the night sky. (This meant it wouldn't cloud over and rain on us.)
It finally got light, so we started packing up -- coiling rope, collecting gear, etc. Then we had to get out. The only food we had left was a large chocolate bar, which we split before heading out. I led the way most of the way through the bushwhack, pushing through generally dense scrub, and accross a couple bits of slab, until we found the trail. We were almost at Gothics peak (our original goal) so all of us but Celine dumped our packs, and did finish the summit. Then we had to hike back out -- down into the col, up to Pyramid peak, then all the way back down again. We were exhausted, both from lack of sleep and lack of food. So, we moved slowly and carefully the whole way. Jonathan had a pumped water-filter with him, so we were able to replenish water a couple times along the way, else it would have been far worse. We finally made it back to the car around 1pm.
We grabbed some food in the car, slowly carefully only eating a bit at a time so as to not make ourselves sick, then went to a restaurant for a meal. Back to the camp site, a quick nap (about 45 minutes), then tear down, pack up, and head back to Canada. I was finally home by about 9pm and after a quick shower, fell into bed exhausted.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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I shudder when I see Macho Men leading with their girlfriends in tow. Those poor gals, they're told to carry the big pack when they follow. The men, you know, are taking all the brunt of leading those life-threatening pitches. The gals, climbing long routes with the burden of a mule. Ugg...
I was over by Central Pillar and saw these two guys, the second just starting. He had a rope bag on his back (and not a small one at that). I commented that usually folks like to trail the second line, makes it easier--especially when you have squeezes to negotiate. The leader, up at the belay, just scowled at me. Odd, the next day I ran into them and they told me of all the fun they had on the Moratorium.
You'd think ...
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