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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Great advice.
Unfortunately I find most topos suggest way too much pro. SuperTopo included.
Caught me out this past weekend when I had a monkey's bag of pro for a climb that I had absolutely no "beta" on except the topo. Made the chimney near the end of the first pitch a real pain in the arse. Since we didn't know anyone who'd done the climb we took what was suggested.
I had a similar problem on Matthes Crest. Took WAY too much stuff. We took a bit less than SuperTopo said, which was still more than we found necessary.
Edit: I've found the fastest way to climb is to Go Steadily. Just keep moving. Rather like mountaineering. Whatever pace you can maintain for hours. Combine that with efficient belay changes. Both climbers must be willing and able to make their leads. Climb "French Free", both parties climbing with leader placing pro and follower picking it up when the route is moderate for both climbers.
Have a rehearsed, efficient and safe rappelling drill. Again, be smooth but DON'T hurry. Hurrying either climbing or rapping is when you get into a ClusterF and that really costs you.
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G_Gnome
Trad climber
In the mountains... somewhere...
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I throw 2 or three good pieces in and clip a runner into one and tie the rope into the other then clip the third piece to one of those. Fast and versitile and easy to clean up.
I once saw all 3 parties on Z Tree in TM with packs on. In that it takes about an hour to climb all three pitches I just couldn't fathom it. I don't even bring water until it is going to take 4 hours or more to do the route unless it is really hot.
Light and fast baby!
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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More....while I'm at it already.
Yeah, not so blamed many doohickies. I've cut back recently. Mo Bettah. Multipurpose things like slings and belay device. I still carry too many free 'biners but last weekend carried too few slings. The extra 'biners came in handy but it was the wrong tradeoff.
Practice good rope management on every climb. Get it right. Again take your time to avoid the ClusterF. Don't let it slide down the slab unless you KNOW the slab is smooth. Keep it slaked neatly while taking in slack. If it's tangled, take a moment to sort it out before the leader takes off. If it's getting tangled, have the leader stop and self belay while you sort it out before he's caught short.
Be efficient but careful when tossing your rappel ropes. Coil loosely, split the coil into two. Toss the first coil and if it's going where you want it let the second coil follow. This takes no more time but minimizes the chance of getting the rope caught. First one down the rapp can start setting up and threading the next rap anchor. It will be ready by the time the second gets down.
and one last suggestion.
DON'T get off route! Take the time to be sure you're going the right way. From hard experience.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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It goes to the 'if you got the junk in the trunk you might as well haul it up the route.'
Unfortunately I do know what you mean!
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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One of the major problems is the Ego associated with the learning curve. Ask any climber heading out to do an 'easy' route, and you almost always catch a reluctant "oh, just something silly... the white maiden... easy day."
Why attach weight to the difficulty of the route?
I learned the hard way, by starting at tahquitz on 5.4's and doing as many laps on routes that did not challenge me physically until I had my logistics dialed. I agree with Jim that too many head straight to routes at or near their limit, thus adding stress to the situation. I always recommend to do 5.easy routes until you have your systems dialed.
What is fascinating is when I climb with my 59 year old mom on long routes. For instance, recently we went to do the East butt of whitney... did it in 4 hours and caught up to several parties who were pitches ahead of us. Not out of shape dudes looking to relax and take it easy, but dudes in their young twenties who claimed to be 5.10 climbers.
Its weird to see someone that can climb a 5.11 off the deck on bolts or 5.10 placing their own gear, but get them a pitch or two up on a 5.7 and zzzzz..... this is no more prevelant than on the ULTRACLASSIC mountain routes in California. See a lot of people that have to backpack in to do relatively short routes (5-10 pitches), and even then finishing in daylight is kind of a question... again its all good, but keep in mind you should let others pass and take steps in training to make sure it doesn't happen. I have been 50lbs heavier than I am now and still managed to never get benighted, not because I'm some fantastic climber (I absolutely am not) but because I put the effort in to make my goals accomplishable rather than getting on a route over my head because its a 'clasic.'
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Tried to, Riley, you guys aren't making it easy....
DNB, onsight, 5 hrs, ctc. Single rack of friends to #3, wires, slings, 1 rope ( 50 meter) no water. And, Wheels was a face gun.
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Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Donini bump.
Just keep moving.
My right-foot anchor top-belay on last pitch of a "un-listed" Sawtooth five-lead climb, with a long approach, in 1986.
Ecdysis.
We got back to camp before dark.
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David Knopp
Trad climber
CA
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many of you talk of swinging leads-on longer multi pitch climbs blocking leads really helps save time and energy-you may have to be a bit more careful at the changeover, with the getting the rope "right side up," but both partners get equal rest-the second gets to catch his breath after you have caught yours at the belay.
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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That sounds like sound advice for someone that is not a total noob. I can remember learning the "too much gear" lesson more than once. While doing the Trip, someone dropped a whole rack of stuff and we still had plenty of gear. You will use what you have.
I use that term "sense of urgency" a bunch when teaching young cooks in a fast moving kitchen. I find it very efficient in conveying an attitude that one must acquire to be good under fire while still remaining in control.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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Don't work out moves; if you can't make a move, pull on gear, move along li'l doggie. If you want purity of the ascent, lead the pitch next time.
I don't buy that, but there is a limit.
If I don't get it clean on the follow, I may retry the move. If I fall again and I can tell I can climb it, I'll retry.
If it looks grim, and it's a long day, then yeah, bear down and pull up and get thru.
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Banquo
climber
Morgan Hill, CA (Mo' Hill)
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Lots of preaching to the choir here - which is OK but doesn't make much progress. One thing I see missing is mentoring. Sometimes I think I only see two types of climbing parties, the experienced and the inexperienced. A bunch of old, grousing curmudgeons and another bunch of greenhorns who wish those old goats would either shut up or help out.
But then I didn't have a mentor. I took a one day climbing class (before there were gyms), liked it and decided I wanted to go climbing. I got a rope, some basic gear and started luring the unsuspecting out to the rocks. Most of these people refused to ever go again but gradually I have gotten to the point where I am at least a mediocre climber still working on some of the basics. I have gone to the gym about 3 times but I didn't like it and my my agoraphobia drove me away.
Take a noob under your wing now and then.
I teach engineering at SJSU and always seem to have a few students who tell me they climb 5.11 but they have never touched a rock. I need to take a couple of them out now and then. On a weekend trip with one or two of them I think we could progress from top rope to following to leading on bolts or even easy pro.
A noob weekend might actually be fun. So what do you say Donini? want to take some nice kids climbing?
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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LOL, Locker, ya coulda died it sounds - of boredom.
At least you were smarter than me trying to take two n00bs up Hallet Pk.
I pulled the plug after 4 pitches. Gud thing too as we would never have
made it before the afternoon monsoon.
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Floyd Hayes
Trad climber
Hidden Valley Lake, CA
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Why the emphasis on speed? I climb for fun, not for speed. I can see why it's necessary to climb fast on a long multipitch climb if you want to finish before dark or a storm blows in. But on shorter multipitch climbs, why rush? I agree that slow parties should allow faster parties to pass, but what's wrong with enjoying the scenery without suffering from hunger, thirst and cold?
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Although I don't disagree with any of Jim's points, I think that in reality the situations are not so black and white. For example, when I am doing two-pitch routes in the Gunks, I usually construct three-piece anchors, because of the added security and the fact that the additional time (which is really quite minimal when you know what you are doing) is not important in the context of a cragging day.
When the routes get longer and time matters more, I won't do a three-piece anchor if two are solid and it is going to require fiddling to do better. But sometimes you just have to work harder. I remember a sloping ledge on sandstone with no bracing for the belayer, a fingertip-sized horizontal crack the only anchoring option, and obviously way run-out climbing on the next pitch. I had four small cams in that crack for an anchor and was not happy with it even so.
Before the information explosion about climbing safety and practices, there were no "standard practices," and all climbers employed a wide and flexible spectrum of responses to climbing realities. But now things have become codified, there are guides and books advocating the best way to do things, and the net result is that beginners are more likely to try to shoehorn every situation into the ideal one they read about or were instructed in. So they've already got two bomber pieces and they're still stuggling to fiddle in a third marginal one, or they are fussing with their cordelette when the rope would be faster and more effective, or they miss the best anchoring opportunities because those optimal choices don't make for an anchor at eye level that they can hang their guide plates on.
I do think it is worth separating the efficiency practices from the elevated risk practices when it comes to speed. Everyone can gain speed by being more efficient, and then on top of that more speed can be gained by upping the risk level. Light racks mean spaced-out protection and minimal belay anchors, minimal clothing can mean hypothermia in conditions that are not common but are also not rare, and the availability of rescue in many areas plus having cell phones to call for help encourage people to be minimally prepared. Since moving slowly on a long climb is a risk factor itself, drawing the line on what accommodations to make in the name of speed requires experience, which is just what inexperienced parties do not have.
One of the problems with regard to the risk concerns that must be arbitrated is that, at least in my opinion, the educational industry has skewed perceptions. A classic example of this are the arguments against anchoring with the rope on the grounds that it makes belay escape more difficult. Situations requiring a belay escape are exceptionally rare, whereas the efficient anchoring speeds you up every day on every pitch. The expected benefits from anchoring efficiency are vastly greater than the highly unlikely problems of belay escape, but the two somehow end up being treated as of equal concern.
I think Jim's initial point about the skewed development of gym-trained climbers is the most significant one. We old folks developed the manifold aspects of our climbing in unison, so while we were learning to climb and protect 5.4's those routes were also adventurous for us. Now someone who may be climbing 5.10-5.12 in the gym comes outside, and their total beginner gear and vertical navigation skills are completely out of whack with their physical climbing abilities. Sure, they can do some 5.4's, but it won't be the same, because the climbing will be way too easy. I suspect that the net result of this is that there are far more parties with beginner-level skills on technically harder climbs, and that is the ultimate source of the issues Jim identifies.
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le_bruce
climber
Oakland, CA
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Good thread, lots of good advice, but
I normally suffice with two solid anchors and I would hazard a guess that I have set up more belays than 99.9 percent of American climbers and I'm still here.
Isn't there a contradiction here? You're telling the less-experienced to do as you do, in the same breath you're stating the truth that you have a lifetime more experience than they do. You've earned the skills and critical eye needed to quickly build and assess an anchor.
If I'm climbing with a rookie or anyone that resembles a rookie, I'd much prefer they take more time to build an equalized, 3-piece anchor. Better chances that the 5/10 .75 and the 6/10 nut will compensate for the 2/10 .5 they placed tipped out in flaring, crap rock but didn't realize was crap, because they're inexperienced.
Donini has got to be the textbook definition of solid in the mountains. If he calls a belay good, it's good. Not so for someone who's new to the game, where another layer of safety is a good idea.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Excellent post, Richie. Amplifying on your last point, the set of beginner's climbs has really changed since I started climbing. Sometimes, I find myself stuck in a 1967 mindset, and don't expect to find beginning outdoor climbers on the route I chose. I need to remember that a serious rating then is considered easy or moderate in the gym now.
As an example, the Kor-Ingalls route on Castleton Tower had sufficient technical difficulty to keep it off of most beginners' minds then. Now, to the typical gym climber just beginning to climb outdoors, its rating is moderate enough to seem to be a suitable objective.
Thus, when we say that a gym climber's technical ability doesn't match his or her outdoor leading skills, we may just be identifying our generational standards. A 5.9 route could be entirely suitable for such a climber now if it has suitable protection, and indeed may be the equivalent of what a 5.5 route was to me when I first started leading.
Again, practice makes perfect, and I need to remind myself of that when I get impatient.
John
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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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climbers are stronger than ever but the overall climbing IQ is at a low ebb
Roger that!
Does everyone forget that, for example, the third ascent of the Nose was 98% aid, virtually no fixed anchors, all pitons and done in 2.5 days?
How many of your "average" Nose parties these days are up to that level of expertise?
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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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The point is that those guys knew their gear and they knew how to move. Do you ever watch people on the Nose? How long does it take to clip three bolts and tie up and anchor? How long does it take to set up the haul? Five minutes? 45 minutes?
BTW Royal did the second, not the third.
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mike m
Trad climber
black hills
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I think it leads to less crowding on the routes when someone straight out of the gym thinks they should float a 5.8-5.9 trad climb and get spanked. Many never come back. Too bad they can't swallow their pride and see what they are missing.
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Grippa
Trad climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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While overall alpine/climbing experience does play a major role. How about guidebooks playing up the fact of "easy bailing" "super classic" or otherwise very flamboaynat terminology playing up a particular route? I can admit that I've been guilty of choosing a route based on this type of beta, and know others have as well. I feel as if guidebooks nowadays, particularly the supertopo series, use this as a selling point. No one wants a guide book where everything seems scary, commiting, and above their heads. Put in easy bail info, and pitch by pitch gear beta, and you have everyone who thinks they can hang dog their way up the climb vying to be the first team on it "so they don't get stuck behind slow parties". When in fact they are the slow party!
I'm young at 25, and furtunately was brought up slowly as a trad climber. I lapped my favorite 5.6's for years before jumping up to tougher, and more commiting climbs. This isn't because of strength or experience either. It's because I was terrified at not knowing what lay up there on the 11 pitch 5.9 at my home crag (little cottonwood). Slowly I built up my skill set so that I knew no matter what we could do the route.
Certain areas are known for commitment to routes as soon as you leave the ground, but with an over abundance of information regarding routes, areas, gear, and decent. It not only takes away the "adventure", but also gives beginners a false sense of security when choosing a route. Don't church it up because you want to sell a route or guidebook to these people. Give them a slight pucker factor even before they step to the approach trail. Make them second guess themselves, and truly question their ability to send a route in style.
Some might say "I climb for fun" or "that's ok for you, but I climb on my own terms", and that's fine by me. But when I climb I think of those who came before me, and how they climbed the route. I think to myself "what can I do to climb this route in a similar style?" instead of simply having the goal of getting to the top.
I feel like guidebooks have their place, but many need to tone down the "classic" terminolgy. This way we disperse the crowds. This way we retain adventure. This way we mature as climbers slowly.
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