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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Topic Author's Original Post - Nov 3, 2011 - 12:36pm PT
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My first climb was multi pitch and , since my partner had a bit of acrophobia, was also the occasion of my first lead(s). Sure, it was easy, but that's the point- climbing in the 60's was all about SLOWLY working your way up thru the grades and learning experientially. The mantra "the leader must never fall" kept our attention given the equipment available at the time. Progress was slow but the learning curve and the developing ability levels were pretty much in synch.
Today's typical beginner develops climbing ability (thanks to gyms and sport climbing) far quicker than he/she learns the needed skills to fully actualize that ability. In a nutshell: climbers are stronger than ever but the overall climbing IQ is at a low ebb. Nowhere is this more evident than in the dreaded transition from single pitch cragging to multi pitch routes. Time after time I am caught behind (or witness to) multi pitch muddles by newer climbers who have the climbing ability but not the tactical savvy for the route they are on. Volumes could be written on the subject but I would like to pass along a few helpful hints when considering your next (or first) multi pitch climb keeping in mind that on longer routes speed is a critical ingredient:
Too much (way too much) gear. If you THINK you need something you don't: if you KNOW you need something you do.
I recently witnessed a group of three on the Kor/Ingalls route on Castleton Tower, a three pitch route that should require under two hours to negotiate. The two seconds had bulging packs with water, extra clothing, food and who knows what else far in excess to what was actually needed. One of them even had hiking boots dangling from her harness. Keep in mind that the descent required rapping the route. I have seen climbers on the Steck Salathe with so much extraneous gear hauling became mandatory- fun stuff in chimneys. My gear for a Grade IV or V is a small 1.5 liter hydration pack, a lightwt. shell around the waist, My lightest approach shoes on the harness and a headlamp, matches and a few power bars in my pockets. Hauling should be reserved for routes with PLANNED bivouacs otherwise that bane of climbing, the unplanned bivvy, might well be in your future.
Too much (way too much) time building belay anchors and going from "off belay to "on belay."
Often I see climbers moving at a reasonable rate until they disappear onto the belay ledge. Remember that extra time spent setting up the belay has a multiple factor on longer routes. Saving time setting up belays is critical and easy to do. Three equalized anchors is rarely (very rarely) needed. I normally suffice with two solid anchors and I would hazard a guess that I have set up more belays than 99.9 percent of American climbers and I'm still here. Also, look for natural anchors first. I once came across a guy who was feverishly trying to get in three equalized anchors next to a perfectly healthy tree with a 10 inch diameter. "You're allowed to use them?" was his comment when I pointed out the tree. Another thing to keep in mind is that stretching a lead beyond a good belay ledge often wastes rather than saves time. I am also not a fan of 70 meter ropes on long routes. They are heavier, require bringing more gear and lead to stretching pitches onto sometimes uncomfortable stances. Multi pitch adventures require honing your skill in setting up belays before you leave the comfort of your local crag.
No sense of urgency. Bring a watch- dammit!
Develop a sense of urgency, pretend you are trying to reach a Patagonian summit before that storming coming in off of the ice cap hits. Check, your watch, monitor your progress and you won't have to use that headlamp or those matches you have in your pocket. Believe me, avoiding climbing or descending by headlamp, or (worse yet) an unplanned bivy can add a lot of safety and comfort to the multi pitch climbing experience.
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Ihateplastic
Trad climber
It ain't El Cap, Oregon
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Welcome to old school climbing 101... this is all good shite here.
Read it... learn it... live it.
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mooser
Trad climber
seattle
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Thanks for the post, Jim. Good stuff!
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scuffy b
climber
dissected alluvial deposits, late Pleistocene
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I have seen climbers in Yosemite carrying a pack for two pitches of climbing.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Occupy Castleton Tower!
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The Larry
climber
Moab, UT
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Occupy Castleton Tower!
Hell yeah, noobs protesting the .1% that place more anchors than the 99.9% of us chuffers.
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neversummer
Trad climber
30 mins. from suicide USA
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Thank you sir.
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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What Donini said. Sometimes it is so sad that I don't even want to call myself a climber.
I would go so far at to say that many of the modern climbers who come out of the climbing gyms are not looking for the same experience when they are in the out of doors as I am.
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ChampionSleeper
Trad climber
Phoenix, AZ
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Good stuff. I find it's very useful to have the follower begin getting ready to move when the leader arrives at the next belay or even slightly before. With a backup knot for the belay, you can get your shoes on, clean unecessary gear from the anchor (use good judgement here), drink some water if needed, chalk up, and be ready to climb as soon as the leader calls on belay.
As a leader, if we are swinging leads, I try and get the anchor organized for the followers arrival (think about where the follower will anchor, stand, and where the next pitch goes). If swinging leads, I'll move and sort the gear to an easy spot on the anchor for my partner to rack up when he arrives.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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As usual, Jim, your climbing advice is spot on, although I shudder at some of the single-piton anchors on which I relied in my earliest days as a climber. As someone else put it, "Good training if you survive."
I think my generation had one generally unacknowledged advantage in keeping the amount of gear down. In the days of pitons, ten or twelve pins was about the most I could carry and still free climb reasonably well (those who've climbed with me might object that I never climbed reasonably well). When nuts became popular, we were reluctant to carry more than about 15 just out of habit from the piton protection days.
The fact remains, though, that the skill set needed for efficient multi-pitch climbing differs from that needed to do most hard gym climbs, and about the only way I know to acquire that skill is to practice. I guess that means I need to be patient when a noob is practicing on my desired objective.
John
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Inner City
Trad climber
East Bay
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Some good points here Jim. Thanks for making them.
I was on a beginner route at Lovers this summer and a new leader was ahead of us. OMG, that chick took 2 1/3 hours to lead one pitch. I learned to climb in a way where you don't ask to pass people, you wait for them to offer. They never did. The whole experience turned into something regrettable. In the future I won't be so polite! Yikes.
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murcy
Gym climber
sanfrancisco
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Notice that Sergeant Latok here is not framing this as a gripe-fest about noobs, but as concrete items of advice. Good stuff. I hope more will be added as in ChampionSleeper's post, so I can learn.
About the too-much-gear, though. When we gym-strong noobs are on routes well below our climbing abilities, it may be amusing how much gear we rack and pack, but it's pretty rare to be slowed down by it. Squeeze chimneys, sure. (On the other hand, I think I can recall parties even of experienced Patagonia alpinists who were glad to have brought warm things up the Steck-Salathe.)
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GhoulweJ
Trad climber
El Dorado Hills, CA
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Donini... Pffft... What does he know.
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mike m
Trad climber
black hills
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Jim, I forgot to give you back your cordelette.
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
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Climbing mult-pitch is certainly more fun if you are quick, organized and know your stuff.
I once spent nearly an hour trying to sort out the mess at a hanging belay (Little John Right) when both I and my parter failed to stay organized. It was quite scary because if you unclip the wrong thing you might die.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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I can't believe he didn't mention the Blue Donini, and its uses on the Third Pillar.
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sac
Trad climber
Sun Coast B.C.
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Some good info!
Having "muddled" extensively...
Perhaps a good way to massively minimize multipitch muddle... is to try and incorporate your climbing rope as much as possible @ belays. Often, the rope is simpler to equalize an anchor... que no?
Whenever I rope up w/ someone and they got all the daisy doohicks, webbolenghs, and such for anchors... I start muttering... muddlemuddlemuddle...
uh boy...
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Ooooh! get the popcorn! Riley's gunnin' fer Donini!
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curt wohlgemuth
Social climber
Bay Area, California
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I'm quite sure that donini has set up a lot more belays than I have, but I'll give a couple views on efficient climbing too.
I learned a long time ago that *leading* fast was never going to be an option for me. I'm just too slow. That said, I always try to optimize *everything else* -- setting up belays, the switchover when the second comes up, and: the second should *climb fast*.
My feeling is that the job of the second is to get to the belay as fast (don't be an idiot tho) as possible. Don't work out moves; if you can't make a move, pull on gear, move along li'l doggie. If you want purity of the ascent, lead the pitch next time.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 3, 2011 - 05:31pm PT
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Yo Riley, climbed with Trundlebum at IC a few days ago, ask him how many cams I carry. Don't actually take all of that stuff on Grade IV's but it's what I took on the Reg Route on Half Dome and what I hope to take on the Nose next Spring. Probably the right amount for people on Grade IV's until they get experience, of course you can go sans shell when weather is good.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Great advice.
Unfortunately I find most topos suggest way too much pro. SuperTopo included.
Caught me out this past weekend when I had a monkey's bag of pro for a climb that I had absolutely no "beta" on except the topo. Made the chimney near the end of the first pitch a real pain in the arse. Since we didn't know anyone who'd done the climb we took what was suggested.
I had a similar problem on Matthes Crest. Took WAY too much stuff. We took a bit less than SuperTopo said, which was still more than we found necessary.
Edit: I've found the fastest way to climb is to Go Steadily. Just keep moving. Rather like mountaineering. Whatever pace you can maintain for hours. Combine that with efficient belay changes. Both climbers must be willing and able to make their leads. Climb "French Free", both parties climbing with leader placing pro and follower picking it up when the route is moderate for both climbers.
Have a rehearsed, efficient and safe rappelling drill. Again, be smooth but DON'T hurry. Hurrying either climbing or rapping is when you get into a ClusterF and that really costs you.
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G_Gnome
Trad climber
In the mountains... somewhere...
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I throw 2 or three good pieces in and clip a runner into one and tie the rope into the other then clip the third piece to one of those. Fast and versitile and easy to clean up.
I once saw all 3 parties on Z Tree in TM with packs on. In that it takes about an hour to climb all three pitches I just couldn't fathom it. I don't even bring water until it is going to take 4 hours or more to do the route unless it is really hot.
Light and fast baby!
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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More....while I'm at it already.
Yeah, not so blamed many doohickies. I've cut back recently. Mo Bettah. Multipurpose things like slings and belay device. I still carry too many free 'biners but last weekend carried too few slings. The extra 'biners came in handy but it was the wrong tradeoff.
Practice good rope management on every climb. Get it right. Again take your time to avoid the ClusterF. Don't let it slide down the slab unless you KNOW the slab is smooth. Keep it slaked neatly while taking in slack. If it's tangled, take a moment to sort it out before the leader takes off. If it's getting tangled, have the leader stop and self belay while you sort it out before he's caught short.
Be efficient but careful when tossing your rappel ropes. Coil loosely, split the coil into two. Toss the first coil and if it's going where you want it let the second coil follow. This takes no more time but minimizes the chance of getting the rope caught. First one down the rapp can start setting up and threading the next rap anchor. It will be ready by the time the second gets down.
and one last suggestion.
DON'T get off route! Take the time to be sure you're going the right way. From hard experience.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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It goes to the 'if you got the junk in the trunk you might as well haul it up the route.'
Unfortunately I do know what you mean!
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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One of the major problems is the Ego associated with the learning curve. Ask any climber heading out to do an 'easy' route, and you almost always catch a reluctant "oh, just something silly... the white maiden... easy day."
Why attach weight to the difficulty of the route?
I learned the hard way, by starting at tahquitz on 5.4's and doing as many laps on routes that did not challenge me physically until I had my logistics dialed. I agree with Jim that too many head straight to routes at or near their limit, thus adding stress to the situation. I always recommend to do 5.easy routes until you have your systems dialed.
What is fascinating is when I climb with my 59 year old mom on long routes. For instance, recently we went to do the East butt of whitney... did it in 4 hours and caught up to several parties who were pitches ahead of us. Not out of shape dudes looking to relax and take it easy, but dudes in their young twenties who claimed to be 5.10 climbers.
Its weird to see someone that can climb a 5.11 off the deck on bolts or 5.10 placing their own gear, but get them a pitch or two up on a 5.7 and zzzzz..... this is no more prevelant than on the ULTRACLASSIC mountain routes in California. See a lot of people that have to backpack in to do relatively short routes (5-10 pitches), and even then finishing in daylight is kind of a question... again its all good, but keep in mind you should let others pass and take steps in training to make sure it doesn't happen. I have been 50lbs heavier than I am now and still managed to never get benighted, not because I'm some fantastic climber (I absolutely am not) but because I put the effort in to make my goals accomplishable rather than getting on a route over my head because its a 'clasic.'
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Tried to, Riley, you guys aren't making it easy....
DNB, onsight, 5 hrs, ctc. Single rack of friends to #3, wires, slings, 1 rope ( 50 meter) no water. And, Wheels was a face gun.
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Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Donini bump.
Just keep moving.
My right-foot anchor top-belay on last pitch of a "un-listed" Sawtooth five-lead climb, with a long approach, in 1986.
Ecdysis.
We got back to camp before dark.
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David Knopp
Trad climber
CA
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many of you talk of swinging leads-on longer multi pitch climbs blocking leads really helps save time and energy-you may have to be a bit more careful at the changeover, with the getting the rope "right side up," but both partners get equal rest-the second gets to catch his breath after you have caught yours at the belay.
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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That sounds like sound advice for someone that is not a total noob. I can remember learning the "too much gear" lesson more than once. While doing the Trip, someone dropped a whole rack of stuff and we still had plenty of gear. You will use what you have.
I use that term "sense of urgency" a bunch when teaching young cooks in a fast moving kitchen. I find it very efficient in conveying an attitude that one must acquire to be good under fire while still remaining in control.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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Don't work out moves; if you can't make a move, pull on gear, move along li'l doggie. If you want purity of the ascent, lead the pitch next time.
I don't buy that, but there is a limit.
If I don't get it clean on the follow, I may retry the move. If I fall again and I can tell I can climb it, I'll retry.
If it looks grim, and it's a long day, then yeah, bear down and pull up and get thru.
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Banquo
climber
Morgan Hill, CA (Mo' Hill)
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Lots of preaching to the choir here - which is OK but doesn't make much progress. One thing I see missing is mentoring. Sometimes I think I only see two types of climbing parties, the experienced and the inexperienced. A bunch of old, grousing curmudgeons and another bunch of greenhorns who wish those old goats would either shut up or help out.
But then I didn't have a mentor. I took a one day climbing class (before there were gyms), liked it and decided I wanted to go climbing. I got a rope, some basic gear and started luring the unsuspecting out to the rocks. Most of these people refused to ever go again but gradually I have gotten to the point where I am at least a mediocre climber still working on some of the basics. I have gone to the gym about 3 times but I didn't like it and my my agoraphobia drove me away.
Take a noob under your wing now and then.
I teach engineering at SJSU and always seem to have a few students who tell me they climb 5.11 but they have never touched a rock. I need to take a couple of them out now and then. On a weekend trip with one or two of them I think we could progress from top rope to following to leading on bolts or even easy pro.
A noob weekend might actually be fun. So what do you say Donini? want to take some nice kids climbing?
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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LOL, Locker, ya coulda died it sounds - of boredom.
At least you were smarter than me trying to take two n00bs up Hallet Pk.
I pulled the plug after 4 pitches. Gud thing too as we would never have
made it before the afternoon monsoon.
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Floyd Hayes
Trad climber
Hidden Valley Lake, CA
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Why the emphasis on speed? I climb for fun, not for speed. I can see why it's necessary to climb fast on a long multipitch climb if you want to finish before dark or a storm blows in. But on shorter multipitch climbs, why rush? I agree that slow parties should allow faster parties to pass, but what's wrong with enjoying the scenery without suffering from hunger, thirst and cold?
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Although I don't disagree with any of Jim's points, I think that in reality the situations are not so black and white. For example, when I am doing two-pitch routes in the Gunks, I usually construct three-piece anchors, because of the added security and the fact that the additional time (which is really quite minimal when you know what you are doing) is not important in the context of a cragging day.
When the routes get longer and time matters more, I won't do a three-piece anchor if two are solid and it is going to require fiddling to do better. But sometimes you just have to work harder. I remember a sloping ledge on sandstone with no bracing for the belayer, a fingertip-sized horizontal crack the only anchoring option, and obviously way run-out climbing on the next pitch. I had four small cams in that crack for an anchor and was not happy with it even so.
Before the information explosion about climbing safety and practices, there were no "standard practices," and all climbers employed a wide and flexible spectrum of responses to climbing realities. But now things have become codified, there are guides and books advocating the best way to do things, and the net result is that beginners are more likely to try to shoehorn every situation into the ideal one they read about or were instructed in. So they've already got two bomber pieces and they're still stuggling to fiddle in a third marginal one, or they are fussing with their cordelette when the rope would be faster and more effective, or they miss the best anchoring opportunities because those optimal choices don't make for an anchor at eye level that they can hang their guide plates on.
I do think it is worth separating the efficiency practices from the elevated risk practices when it comes to speed. Everyone can gain speed by being more efficient, and then on top of that more speed can be gained by upping the risk level. Light racks mean spaced-out protection and minimal belay anchors, minimal clothing can mean hypothermia in conditions that are not common but are also not rare, and the availability of rescue in many areas plus having cell phones to call for help encourage people to be minimally prepared. Since moving slowly on a long climb is a risk factor itself, drawing the line on what accommodations to make in the name of speed requires experience, which is just what inexperienced parties do not have.
One of the problems with regard to the risk concerns that must be arbitrated is that, at least in my opinion, the educational industry has skewed perceptions. A classic example of this are the arguments against anchoring with the rope on the grounds that it makes belay escape more difficult. Situations requiring a belay escape are exceptionally rare, whereas the efficient anchoring speeds you up every day on every pitch. The expected benefits from anchoring efficiency are vastly greater than the highly unlikely problems of belay escape, but the two somehow end up being treated as of equal concern.
I think Jim's initial point about the skewed development of gym-trained climbers is the most significant one. We old folks developed the manifold aspects of our climbing in unison, so while we were learning to climb and protect 5.4's those routes were also adventurous for us. Now someone who may be climbing 5.10-5.12 in the gym comes outside, and their total beginner gear and vertical navigation skills are completely out of whack with their physical climbing abilities. Sure, they can do some 5.4's, but it won't be the same, because the climbing will be way too easy. I suspect that the net result of this is that there are far more parties with beginner-level skills on technically harder climbs, and that is the ultimate source of the issues Jim identifies.
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le_bruce
climber
Oakland, CA
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Good thread, lots of good advice, but
I normally suffice with two solid anchors and I would hazard a guess that I have set up more belays than 99.9 percent of American climbers and I'm still here.
Isn't there a contradiction here? You're telling the less-experienced to do as you do, in the same breath you're stating the truth that you have a lifetime more experience than they do. You've earned the skills and critical eye needed to quickly build and assess an anchor.
If I'm climbing with a rookie or anyone that resembles a rookie, I'd much prefer they take more time to build an equalized, 3-piece anchor. Better chances that the 5/10 .75 and the 6/10 nut will compensate for the 2/10 .5 they placed tipped out in flaring, crap rock but didn't realize was crap, because they're inexperienced.
Donini has got to be the textbook definition of solid in the mountains. If he calls a belay good, it's good. Not so for someone who's new to the game, where another layer of safety is a good idea.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Excellent post, Richie. Amplifying on your last point, the set of beginner's climbs has really changed since I started climbing. Sometimes, I find myself stuck in a 1967 mindset, and don't expect to find beginning outdoor climbers on the route I chose. I need to remember that a serious rating then is considered easy or moderate in the gym now.
As an example, the Kor-Ingalls route on Castleton Tower had sufficient technical difficulty to keep it off of most beginners' minds then. Now, to the typical gym climber just beginning to climb outdoors, its rating is moderate enough to seem to be a suitable objective.
Thus, when we say that a gym climber's technical ability doesn't match his or her outdoor leading skills, we may just be identifying our generational standards. A 5.9 route could be entirely suitable for such a climber now if it has suitable protection, and indeed may be the equivalent of what a 5.5 route was to me when I first started leading.
Again, practice makes perfect, and I need to remind myself of that when I get impatient.
John
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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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climbers are stronger than ever but the overall climbing IQ is at a low ebb
Roger that!
Does everyone forget that, for example, the third ascent of the Nose was 98% aid, virtually no fixed anchors, all pitons and done in 2.5 days?
How many of your "average" Nose parties these days are up to that level of expertise?
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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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The point is that those guys knew their gear and they knew how to move. Do you ever watch people on the Nose? How long does it take to clip three bolts and tie up and anchor? How long does it take to set up the haul? Five minutes? 45 minutes?
BTW Royal did the second, not the third.
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mike m
Trad climber
black hills
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I think it leads to less crowding on the routes when someone straight out of the gym thinks they should float a 5.8-5.9 trad climb and get spanked. Many never come back. Too bad they can't swallow their pride and see what they are missing.
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Grippa
Trad climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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While overall alpine/climbing experience does play a major role. How about guidebooks playing up the fact of "easy bailing" "super classic" or otherwise very flamboaynat terminology playing up a particular route? I can admit that I've been guilty of choosing a route based on this type of beta, and know others have as well. I feel as if guidebooks nowadays, particularly the supertopo series, use this as a selling point. No one wants a guide book where everything seems scary, commiting, and above their heads. Put in easy bail info, and pitch by pitch gear beta, and you have everyone who thinks they can hang dog their way up the climb vying to be the first team on it "so they don't get stuck behind slow parties". When in fact they are the slow party!
I'm young at 25, and furtunately was brought up slowly as a trad climber. I lapped my favorite 5.6's for years before jumping up to tougher, and more commiting climbs. This isn't because of strength or experience either. It's because I was terrified at not knowing what lay up there on the 11 pitch 5.9 at my home crag (little cottonwood). Slowly I built up my skill set so that I knew no matter what we could do the route.
Certain areas are known for commitment to routes as soon as you leave the ground, but with an over abundance of information regarding routes, areas, gear, and decent. It not only takes away the "adventure", but also gives beginners a false sense of security when choosing a route. Don't church it up because you want to sell a route or guidebook to these people. Give them a slight pucker factor even before they step to the approach trail. Make them second guess themselves, and truly question their ability to send a route in style.
Some might say "I climb for fun" or "that's ok for you, but I climb on my own terms", and that's fine by me. But when I climb I think of those who came before me, and how they climbed the route. I think to myself "what can I do to climb this route in a similar style?" instead of simply having the goal of getting to the top.
I feel like guidebooks have their place, but many need to tone down the "classic" terminolgy. This way we disperse the crowds. This way we retain adventure. This way we mature as climbers slowly.
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AP
Trad climber
Calgary
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Always interesting to watch people at Red Rocks on their first multi-pitch, some with huge expedition packs. One time I was starting off on Dream of Wild Turkeys and 2 guys (one Aussie, one Canadian) were waiting for a couple to make progress on Prince of Darkness. This couple took about 20 minutes to get their shite together on a fixed, hanging belay. The Aussie started saying things in a loud voice like "At least we are as good as we think we are". He shamed the others into retreating.
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tornado
climber
lawrence kansas
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Right on Coz!
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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I agree. God damn those people who just haven’t fully adapted. I mean with a stick even. J-Do is right again. Damn! I think though, we need to pause and learn from J-Do’s peerless examples to really benefit from his specific wisdom here.
(1) He is the only climber who has had all his cams re-anodized to blue, regardless of size. Its true.
(2) In line with his Calories In Calories Out dictum, he singlehandedly wiped off the academic map the now anachronistic yet wide-ranging disciplines of psychiatry and psychology; this was an immense and humane act of his for which he is rarely recognized and thanked.
Of what does J-Do really speak? Pilgrims, here it is, the insidious multipoint anchor that now has all the Great Lakes threatened, the Mississippi Delta, and which has already wiped out most of the ecoculture of the SF Bay where the Striped Bass is on its last legs; the Sturgeon too.
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marty(r)
climber
beneath the valley of ultravegans
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I've been hearing lately that the era of patient apprenticeship has ended but from what I can tell, there are some mentors out there that, while well-intentioned, are endangering their friends.
This past summer the anthill that has become Cathedral Peak had no fewer than 12 parties climbing at once in one afternoon. One party of three had an able-bodied leader with two followers in tow, each carrying full packs with Thermarests. I believe they ended up calling for but not needing a rescue while another climber in separate team partially dislocated his shoulder, lowered down several pitches, and walked out. The chimney had a line four parties deep with fine route alternatives to either side.
Regardless of the number of pieces in your anchor or the matches in your pocket, the mountains are for everyone. But not every route fits every climber.
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Peter, it's heartwarming to see redundance done right, although I'm a little disturbed at the sight of so many perfectly good cams going unplugged. I'm also worried about whether the system is properly equalized. It seems there may be pieces getting more than 1/25 of the total load, which might be disastrous in case of a factor two fall onto the toilet paper rolls.
Speaking of those rolls, two may be good enough for experienced defecators like Donini, who has taken more mountain dumps than 99% of the Super Topo user base and does his grade IV's and V's with a 1.5 liter hand sanitizer pack and a role of TP wrapped around his waist, but it isn't right to suggest to noobs leaving the indoor restroom for perhaps the first time that they too ought to manage with just two rolls. That's like suggesting a mineral oil enema to a suicidal irritable bowel syndrome sufferer.
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Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
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To answer Floyd: who asked this question a few posts back
Why the emphasis on speed? I climb for fun, not for speed. I can see why it's necessary to climb fast on a long multi-pitch climb if you want to finish before dark or a storm blows in. But on shorter multi-pitch climbs, why rush? I agree that slow parties should allow faster parties to pass, but what's wrong with enjoying the scenery without suffering from hunger, thirst and cold?
This is a valid question to many in these sport climbing times.
Floyd: In the old days, rock climbing was considered practice for real climbing in the mountains, and eventually the "major ranges."
Rock climbing was intended to hone skills needed to climb "Big Mountains." Speed & efficiency was to be learned and enhanced by doing longer, and more difficult rock-climbing routes.
I realize that "speed & efficiency" does not mean much at your local crag, and if you have no desire to go do longer routes: you can continue to enjoy a leisurely outdoor activity.
Unfortunately, you may encounter some climbers that want to quickly climb the route you are having fun on.
So it goes.
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KlimbIn
climber
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Noob here. I can probably count the number of multi-pitch I've lead/been on without taking of both shoes. I'm scared so I don't on MPs unless they are 2 or more grades below my level, or have a solid/mentor partner to lead and setup the harder pitches.
And I mostly agree with what Mr. Donini stated but overall Mr. Cosgrove sums it up quite well.
"Too much (way too much) gear. If you THINK you need something you don't: if you KNOW you need something you do."
Agree when Donini describes gear as shoes, excess water, food etc. Carrying the right amount of safety for the job can be learned outside of climbing. Doing long hikes, or backpacking teaches what's too much, and when you cut it a bit too close. So maybe the advice is to learn that somewhere else than a wall. However at this stage in my experience I can't have too much climbing gear. Having the right nut or cam when I WANT it (not necessarily when it's really needed) means the difference between uhming and ahing for 5-10 minute before a difficult move. I don't have the experience yet or testicular fortitude to just run it out on an MP. If I'm sketching I'm slow. For me more climbing gear means less wasted time.
"Too much (way too much) time building belay anchors and going from "off belay to "on belay."
Guilty. But getting better. Realizing now that one bomber sling around a tree or formation, with a single emotional backup is better that wasting time equalizing, and trying to remember all the Building Anchor advice. But when confronted with something I haven't seen before, something that's not in my anchor repertoire; I'm slow. I place 3 pieces (sometimes 4). I check them; I equalize; I check it again. Why? Because I don't have the experience and I don't want to hurt myself or my partner.
Something that wasn't mentioned here is rope management at the belay. Oh god the clusterf*#ks; one would think a simple strand of rope would be simple but how the hell does it get so tangled up and doesn't do what you want it to.
"No sense of urgency. Bring a watch- dammit!"
100% agree here. Unless I'm completely confident in getting off any time I want; I have one aim and it's to move fast. That unfortunately often supersedes the "I am here to have fun" aim. Once I'm back down safely I can call it fun. Until then all is at stakes. Again I think that knowledge can be gained by doing other things than climbing; hiking 20 or more miles in a day, backpacking, biking long distances, etc.
But as Coz says "Climbing is hard to learn and easy to die, take your time, be safe, and don't feel pressured on your first multi-pitch, bring way more than you think you need, because you're a beginner and not qualified to know the difference."
And that's the thread through my whole writing. You got to lead and do multi-pitches to gain the experience to do them efficiently. You can't gain the experience if you die while doing it. So unfortunately noobs who want to keep climbing and learning should be slow and over-protective.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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So unfortunately noobs who want to keep climbing and learning should be slow and over-protective. And try to find good mentors.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 6, 2011 - 12:44am PT
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Bottom line- do it, don't just read about it and bring some common sense along.
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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So unfortunately noobs who want to keep climbing and learning should be slow and over-protective.
I think this is true. When we grouchy old curmudgeons were noobs, we blundered our way up stuff too. I recall an ascent of the East Ridge of Nez Perce which involved getting off-route onto the North Face, dropping a pack that was loaded with with everything needed for two weeks in the Himalaya, then getting benighted and spending the night near the summit in t-shirts while the temps dropped below freezing. I was so wrecked from shivering all night that it took me ten minutes of jumping up and down (holding on to an anchored rope) before I had enough balance to even walk.
The difference between then and now is that we didn't have the Wyoming All-Star Climbing Team breathing down our necks. Those guys were off on things we weren't ready for yet. Now the same noobs as us start up some mega-classic and hold up a string of World Cup Finalists who are out for a relaxing morning of enchaining seventeen grade IV's before lunch.
No one is to blame here, although both ends of the spectrum might be a little inconsiderate (recalling that consideration for others wasn't really supposed to be a major component of the climbing experience). The problem isn't so much noobs building three-point anchors as it is just population density. There are too many damn climbers on the rock, and they end up getting in each other's way.
Here's what I think. The noobs and the experts need to stay off the super popular routes on super popular days. The star system and classic climb beta stream have turned certain admittedly marvelous routes into teeming anthills, as someone said upthread. You know you're gonna be on a conga line for a lot of these routes. If you're a noob, you'll be holding everyone up. If you're an expert, you'll be fuming at all the incompetence. Are we having fun yet?
Sometimes the experts can pull some tricks. Bragg and I went up to do Crimson Chrysalis on a miserable day in March with glowering clouds scudding low across the crags and a cold wind howling through the canyons. We were the only party on the route and, as far as we could tell, the only party in the canyon. This was during Spring Break and when the sun came out the route filled up with parties on every pitch and more parties rapping down on top of them. A gust nearly blew Bragg off one pitch and we had to cower below the final summit scramble for ten minutes waiting for a lull in the gale, but we might as well have had the whole range to ourselves as far as encounters with other climbers were concerned. It was a good day.
Back in the Gunks, we had one of the most crowded Columbus Days on record this year. The West Trapps lot was full and closed at 8:30 AM on Saturday. I wasn't going to go anywhere near the Trapps Zoo, so headed out to Millbrook with two visiting Canadian friends. Noobs don't go to Millbrook. Neither do quite a few non-noobs. The crowds are kept at bay by an hour or so of walking, a long rappel, a hair-raising scramble along the Death Traverse Ledge, the need to climb out, and the manifold uncertainties of a steep and forbidding crag with virtually no fixed anchors anywhere and no dotted chalk lines to show the way. On this beautiful but most packed of days, we shared the crag only with the turkey vultures and hawks spiraling silently on the updrafts while peregrines swooped and chattered.
One of the things that I've found from this approach is that there are a lot of one- and zero-star climbs that are really pretty good. If you are a noob, you can bumble your way up in peace and learn your craft at your pace rather than someone else's, and you don't have to feel bad about causing a parking lot on the freeway. If you are an expert, you'll be surprised at how good some sections are, and will enjoy actually figuring out the moves, protection, and route, rather than phoning them in by memory reinforced by countless previous trips.
The noobs will climb and get better, the experts won't blow a gasket, and everyone will have those ineffable experiences that climbers think of as fun.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 6, 2011 - 01:06am PT
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Interesting, just climbed with Bragg today in Eldo. Weather just marginal enough to keep the crowds down. Yes, go slow and be conservative but use your brain. No, you don't need a 15 lb. pack on a two pitch climb. No, you don't need to carry approach shoes when you're going to rap the route. No, you don't have to build intricate belay anchors when natural options are next to you. The list goes on... there is a difference between being cautious and just not thinking things thru. I love it when I see people top roping with two belay devices, belay gloves, cordelettes, and a nut tool hanging from their harness.
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giegs
climber
Tardistan
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Threads like this are why I only aid solo 5.4s.
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john hansen
climber
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I think that some of these people might think that if they leave their stuff at the base of a climb it will be stolen.
typical city folk.....
I never saw anything wrong with just a hip belay, with no pro, if you had a really solid stance.
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ME Climb
Trad climber
Behind the Orange Curtain
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I have not been climbing very long and do not get to climb very often. That being said my learning curve has been slow. I have been blessed with good mentors and pay attention to what they say. I have placed gear and built anchors. I will always choose the big healthy tree before looking to place gear in a crack. I know for me safety is a huge deal for me. My problem is I don't have the practical experience of being able to quickly look at the terrain and grab the right piece the first time. All that being said....I would much rather be on a 5 easy placing gear than struggling to climb and place gear at the same time. Once I am more proficient with placing gear and building anchors I will work on harder routes. But in the mean time I truly enjoy climbing long easy routes.
Until I get more "seat time" I will do my best to stay out of the way of faster parties.
Eric
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mike m
Trad climber
black hills
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Go to the Needles. Hundreds and hundreds of moderate to easy trad climbs. No lines on any of them. Can do most with a fairly limited rack and you will scare yourself silly if you try to bite off too much. Seems like everyone that just starts trad climbing thinks they have to start on 5.9 or higher because that is all the lower their ego will let them dip. There is something about climbing comfortably and swiftly on 5th class terain that you will not get to enjoy if you start out with routes over your head. You might need to climb 5 number grades below what you do in the gym. You might just realize that these routes below 5.7 are cool, a whole lotta of fun, harder than you think, and teach you things to make you comfortable on harder grades.I would imagine that most older traditional areas have many of these routes as well. Do you climb to have fun or do you climb to impress others? You will have more fun if you have a good base IMO.
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TWP
Trad climber
Mancos, CO
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I want to second Hanson's comment:
"I never saw anything wrong with just a hip belay, with no pro, if you had a really solid stance."
This is often key to developing a stance and getting "on belay" for the second in a heart beat as opposed to the time-consuming tyranny of thinking TWO pieces of GEAR are ALWAYS a MUST. BS. The only "must" in alpine, multi-pitch climbing is finishing the climb (hopefully in good style — before sunset, the weather breaks, fatigue/thirst overwhelm the body, etc).
I also feel that hip belays for the leader offer advantages over the modern belay devices.
To wit: when belaying the leader a stance/hip belay with these elements is an excellent multi-pitch technique.
1. Belayer short ties to the belay anchor so belayer can't be pulled off-stance when catching a fall;
2. Route the running end to the leader through a carabiner at the waist, then around hip. This increases angle/friction on the catch.
3. Sit down;
4. Use the terrain of the stance creatively to brace the body through the strong muscles of the back and legs to resist the direction of anticipated force.
In other words, make your body stance an additional strong point so that in the event of a fall, force is not transferred to the "belay anchor" at all. An anchor that never receives force can never fail.
One more advantage: one can yard in rope far faster (and with less energy) with the hip belay as opposed to an arrangement putting a belay device between the belayers two hands.
The gear centric, Nazi mentality of modern climbers toward old-fashioned hip belays deters me from deploying these techniques except with climbers of long pedigree.
I can't wait to hear the howls of protest from youngsters against my prediluvian thinking. (I don't tweet or text either; my daughter created my Facebook page without my consent). (I learned the strength of the sitting hip belay from an Exum guide in 1969; too bad this technique is now lost art).
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phylp
Trad climber
Millbrae, CA
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I'd like to add a few practical observations:
1. I have also noticed that the thing which takes my less experienced partners the most time is their obsession with equalizing a three piece (or four) belay. It's not my place to recommend whether you want to use 2 or three pieces, but equalizing can be done in 10 seconds with a sling and circle-link device sold by Trango - I think it's actually called the equalizer. I use it and like it a lot. The sliding configuration allows for 2 or 3 pieces to be equalized.
2. You do not have to take the time to set your "up" pull piece of the belay until the second gets to the anchor. They may have cleaned from the pitch while they are seconding, exactly the piece you need for your bomber "up" placement.
3. Re 2 piece "down pull" belay anchors: One often has the opportunity to set a bomber piece just before pulling onto the belay ledge or stance. If you have a ton of gear left, place that piece. It's a good backup if the anchor placements are a bit suspect.
4. If you are at a hanging belay and need to coil the ropes back and forth over your stance, coil each successive loop slightly shorter than the one previous. That way, when the leader starts up the next pitch and you are feeding out the rope, the loops on top are much less likely to catch underneath the lower loops and pull them into an impossible knotty tangle. I hadn't been doing much multipitch climbing recently until my October trip to the Red Rocks and forgot this myself until I was reminded by my own messy tangle.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Fewer gizmos. Learn how to use a minimum set of tools as they are intended in max number of situations. The corollary: minimize dependence on single purpose tools.
Understand the strengths and weaknesses of your ropes/'biners/cams/nuts/slings.
Reduction Ad Absurdum: donini's single #3 Camalot. Or so I thought until Thursday's TR of Lone Pine Peak
http://www.supertopo.com/tr/South-Side-Lone-Pine-Peak-Serrated-Ridge/t11244n.html
Learn the BASIC mechanical forces in a belay and protection placements. Every good book on climbing shows it. Understand it. Then you can minimize your use of the "three piece anchor", instead using smart two or even 1 piece anchors. You'll also know when you REALLY need that Sea of Dreams 8 Rurp belay!
There's nothing wrong with the sitting hip belay in many circumstances. This was impressed upon me this summer watching an Exum guide belay clients down a short 5th class section on the Grand Teton.
Something that I think has been overlooked but was drilled into me by my mentors: As the second cleans gear, she should re-rack it as well as possible. This can really shorten changeover time. Use the racking sling instead of your gear loops to rack gear. Each item on your gear loops has to be taken off and handed over one at a time.
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YoungGun
climber
North
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This is pretty... well... you read:
http://www.ottawaclimbing.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=925&p=7109
Last weekend K8, Jonathan, Celine and I decided to go climbing in the Adirondacks. There is a lot of beautiful climbing in the Keene Valley area. Our plans were to head out early Saturday morning, get down there around mid-day, set up camp at the Alpine Club of Canada camp site at Keene farm, then have a relaxing day afternoon of climbing Saturday. Sunday we would climb Gothic Arch, a 6-pitch 5.6 slab climb up the south face of The Gothics. Then Monday, we'd break camp, and climb something close to the road with an easy approach and drive home.
Saturday went just as planned -- up early, meet up and load up at Jonathan's and on the road by about 7:15am. Pleasant drive down, amusement at the border guarders (K8 has a "golden ticket" -- that is, a US passsport.) Find the camp site, setup, drive back to the pull out and hike in to the beer walls. We lost the trail and did a bit of bushwhacking -- but not a problem. We even ran into another crowd of Ottawa folks (Glauco, Bertrand, Craig and a 4th who I didn't previously know and whose name I have forgotten.) Then a pleasant dinner, a beer (for the other 3) and to bed.
Sunday was The Gothics. It is a 4800' peak, and the climb on the south face we were doing (Gothic Arch) was a 6-pitch 800' climb, no pitch harder than 5.6. The guide book listed the approach as "3.5 hours, difficult". Jonathan figured they'd given a conservative estimate -- and that it might only be 3 hours in; I was less optimistic and thought probably 4-4.5 hours. So we got up a little after 7am, made breakfast, packed lunch, chose gear, packed up, etc and were on the road by about 9:45am, found the parking and started hiking by about 10:30am. I figured 4.5 hours in, climbing by 3pm, 5-6 hours climbing the cliff, and we might be hiking out in the dark -- but along a trail with headlamps, not too bad. The hike in goes about 3.5 miles up (continually up, though not steeply, a gain of about 800') a road, then leaves the road and becomes a trail. The trail starts at Lower Ausable Lake (about 2000') and climbs up over Pyramid Peak (4500') and then down into a col. We bushwhacked down a ravine (about 200' vertical), including some 4th class bits (that we rappelled down), then found the base of our climb. That was about 4:30pm. So, it took us about 6 hours to do the 3.5 hour hike in.
At this point, up the cliff really is our way out -- we're in an interior valley, and civilization is back over the ridge and down. So, I start leading up the climb -- and it is gorgeous climbing. A bit run-out in places, but beautiful rock, interesting moves, and just good climbing. I'm about 4 pitches up, and have done about 650' of climbing and the sun has gone down at the start of the 4th pitch and it is starting to get noticeably dark by the end of the 4th pitch, and the other pair is about a pitch behind me. So, we start talking about how to bail. The last 2 pitches are shorter than the others -- only about 150' total, but they're a lot steeper. I consider climbing them, and leaving a top-rope for the others, but as soon as I actually take a look at them, I decide no way do I want to try and climb (and route find) up that section in the dark. So... we can traverse to the side of the cliff, where there are trees, and maybe scramble up that. I lead that traverse (maybe 80') in the fading then dark -- placing gear as much by feel as site. (Celine, my 2nd, forgot to pack her headlamp, and she wanted the headlamp for cleaning.) That was one of the most... interesting leads I have ever done! Once I'm across, K8 and Jonathan have caught up to Celine at the last belay -- though K8 took a lead fall on no gear on the way up; luckily on quite non-steep rock, and she managed to catch herself with a fist-jam under an overlap she was falling beside.
I bring Celine, then K8 across the traverse, them just unclipping, then reclipping the gear, so the next person can just follow easily. Jonathan comes last, cleaning the gear. In the middle of cleaning one of my pieces, he knocks his headlamp off. We watch it skitter down the face a 100' or so. He ends up leaving that piece behind, and finishes the traverse.
So, we're all sitting in some trees, on steep terrain, probably about 200' of bushwhacking through dense, steep, brush from the trail. It is about 10pm, full dark, and we have 2 headlamps for the 4 of us. We're dress for hiking and climbing on a sunny hot mid-summer day. I was wearing the most clothing, with a very light long-sleeved shirt and pants. (I like those for protection from the sun, scrapes on the rock, and from branches when bushwhacking.) Everyone else was in longish shorts and tank tops. We had no food by this point, little water, and no preparation for spending the night. But, the idea of bushwhacking up this very steep terrain, possibly with sections of open rock, with enough light was even worse. So, we decided to bivouac (bivy) for the night.
We found the largest open space we could, tied in to the trees and started huddling together. After a bit, and getting colder, especially as the wind blew, Jonathan figured that covering us with cut pine boughs would help. So, he cut a bunch of them, and threw them over us. This did help, but of course the terrain was steep enough that every time we shifted they would slide off us and often out of reach, so the layer slowly diminished over the night. And the ground was both steep and uneven, so there was no such thing as a comfortable position. We huddle closer and closer as the night wore on, shivering more when the wind blew, as it did more and more towards the end of the night. About the most reassuring thing was that every time we looked up, we could still clearly see stars in the night sky. (This meant it wouldn't cloud over and rain on us.)
It finally got light, so we started packing up -- coiling rope, collecting gear, etc. Then we had to get out. The only food we had left was a large chocolate bar, which we split before heading out. I led the way most of the way through the bushwhack, pushing through generally dense scrub, and accross a couple bits of slab, until we found the trail. We were almost at Gothics peak (our original goal) so all of us but Celine dumped our packs, and did finish the summit. Then we had to hike back out -- down into the col, up to Pyramid peak, then all the way back down again. We were exhausted, both from lack of sleep and lack of food. So, we moved slowly and carefully the whole way. Jonathan had a pumped water-filter with him, so we were able to replenish water a couple times along the way, else it would have been far worse. We finally made it back to the car around 1pm.
We grabbed some food in the car, slowly carefully only eating a bit at a time so as to not make ourselves sick, then went to a restaurant for a meal. Back to the camp site, a quick nap (about 45 minutes), then tear down, pack up, and head back to Canada. I was finally home by about 9pm and after a quick shower, fell into bed exhausted.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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I shudder when I see Macho Men leading with their girlfriends in tow. Those poor gals, they're told to carry the big pack when they follow. The men, you know, are taking all the brunt of leading those life-threatening pitches. The gals, climbing long routes with the burden of a mule. Ugg...
I was over by Central Pillar and saw these two guys, the second just starting. He had a rope bag on his back (and not a small one at that). I commented that usually folks like to trail the second line, makes it easier--especially when you have squeezes to negotiate. The leader, up at the belay, just scowled at me. Odd, the next day I ran into them and they told me of all the fun they had on the Moratorium.
You'd think ...
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 8, 2011 - 10:27am PT
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High Traverse, I use a sitting hip belay whenever the person following is on easy/moderate terrain where he/she is climbing quickly. In 1974 I held a 80 ft. leader fall in Yosemite on the Meatgrinder with a hip belay and swami belt with no ill effects to either me or the leader.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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donini, I do the same--us a hip belay when the follower is floating up easy ground. Man, the looks I get from the less experienced!
Edit:
Trango Alpine Equalizer
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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I was held on an 80 foot slider/bouncer on Pywiack Dike route by a sitting hip belay on a swami. No worries myte!
Trango Alpine Equalizer Complex, single use gizmo.
And in the extremely unlikely but SH@T happens event that a falling rock cuts the webbing, you're toast.
Meh! Unless someone can explain better why I need one.
I STILL don't get the use of a GriGri for free climbing except Planet Granite requires you to use one. Go ahead, call me a Luddite.
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ydpl8s
Trad climber
Santa Monica, California
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phylp
Trad climber
Millbrae, CA
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"Complex, single use gizmo."
High Traverse - my husband says the exact same thing about it, and that is why he doesn't like it. I respect your opinion. It is not something you NEED. But I still like it. :)
"And in the extremely unlikely but SH@T happens event that a falling rock cuts the webbing, you're toast."
You are right if using it as in the picture with no knots of any kind clipped to the biners of the belay gear. It is basically a one piece of long runner. The instructions specify you can tie a clove hitch at each anchor point if that is your preference.
Phyl
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tolman_paul
Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
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I agree that climbers will be rewarded when they can climb efficiently with the smallest possible rack.
But, what needs to be realized is why the noobs take too much gear, and too much time. The lack confidence. When you lack confidence, you are scared to commit to a move, and it takes you more time. When you lack confidence, you don't trust the placement you've made, so you fiddle around with it, and place another piece 3-5' above it. When you don't have confidence you place multiple anchors, and are still afraid they won't hold. Same with extra clothing, food, water etc. All one has to do is peruse rc.noob to see the hoards that are second guessing how to equalize three or four anchors. The don't have the experience to trust themselves, and the overload of manuals and equipment options just makes them second guess themselves. The make up for their lack of confidence by clipping extra gear to their harness.
Life was pretty easy when 7 1/2' of 1" webbing with a sliding X to equalize two pieces and two opposed biners to tie in was all you knew.
You can scold them, you can berate them, you can avoid them. But none of that will build their confidence. What is required is for them to put in the mileage. Experiencing different situations and being able to build on that experience. To me there is no better teacher as to why you don't want to haul a pack, then hauling a pack on a multi pitch route. One or two times is usually sufficient to wean one of that madness.
Until one has done 10, 20, 30, 50 etc pitches of a given type of climb on a similiar type of rock, it's tough to be confident with say a set of nuts, dozen cams and 8 runners. Once one gains the experience, then they will naturally pare down their rack.
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zeta
Trad climber
Berkeley
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great topic!
It takes time to be faster, more efficient. Having a good mentor is key. I used to take forever to lead a pitch and build an anchor so I try to remember to be patient with others for doing things that I used to do...now when I climb w/ new people (new to multi-pitch), here's what I try to impress upon them:
Be ready at the base:
I hate it when I finish a lead, build the anchor, pull up the rope, tell them they're on belay...and then ...spend like 5 minutes waiting...they're putting on their climbing shoes, packing sh#t away, etc. I learned early on to be ready to climb the moment the rope comes tight and you're on belay.
Don't take a pack unless you absolutely have to..and even then, pare it down. Getting in the habit of guzzling a lot of water at the base before a long climb so you can just get away with carrying less water...
Cleaning/racking:
making sure the new MP person knows how to properly and quickly rack the gear so that it's efficient/fast to pass the gear to the leader. Such a pain when the follower comes up with all the gear splayed all over their bodies when they arrive at the anchor.
Rope management:
this is key and took me a while to get better at it. Phylp's point below I only recently started to do on a more regular basis. Sometimes a little thing makes a huge difference!
4. If you are at a hanging belay and need to coil the ropes back and forth over your stance, coil each successive loop slightly shorter than the one previous. That way, when the leader starts up the next pitch and you are feeding out the rope, the loops on top are much less likely to catch underneath the lower loops and pull them into an impossible knotty tangle. I hadn't been doing much multipitch climbing recently until my October trip to the Red Rocks and forgot this myself until I was reminded by my own messy tangle.
you just keep learning though. When I climb with other partners, I like seeing their systems for efficiency...and then deciding if I'll copy it
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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But, what needs to be realized is why the noobs take too much gear, and too much time. The lack confidence.
Truth!
John
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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A Norwegian story from the 50s
Odd Saether was the uncrowned king of Kolsaas at the time. He was a climbing maestro. I have never seen anything like him when it comes to grips. Whatever he touched he was able to hold. He never gave in to a grip, he left it. Before he went for the next move he let his fingers hang for a short time to regain his power. His footwork was just as excellent. He was not nonchalantly relaxed as Franz Beckenbauer. All of Saethers moves were calm and conscious. The free foot was left to hang for a moment to rest before he raised it and placed it, precisely every time. To Saether climbing was coordination, transfer of weight, balance, precision.
The king do not see the novices. Dag and I had been climbing for a long time before we understood that Saether had seen us. A Sunday he invited us to climb Brochs gate. It was an incredible recognition. We felt accepted by the grown ups, it was our confirmation as adults. We were allowed to carry the rope. Pride!
To me it became a school of "harm makes wise". It started well. Saethers instructions were short and made with authority. The essens of the climbing ethics came in short sentences. They stuck to the young receptive minds: Never trust a bolt! The climber on lead must never fall! What he did not say, but what I became painfully aware of during the climbing was: "Neither do Sather climb with people who fall while following as second".
This is what happened:
I wanted of my whole heart to show Saether that I was a good climber. I knew that Saether disliked slowness. Climbing should happen flowingly. Problems should be solved first time.
In my eagerness I went the wrong way. I realised it soon, but instead of admitting it and ask for rope to climb back, I pushed on.
Saether watched me from above. He did not say anything. When I fell he let a couple of meters of rope go to give me air. He still did not say anything when I came up, but I understood that imprecision was a hundred times worse than slowness. I was air to him. Dag was allowed to carry the rope.
It took a long time before I again was asked to follow him climbing. Saether had written me off as a climber. I had failed at the exam. And climbers do not have a second chance.
Saether's pedagogics was short and effective. The message was clear as ice.
As he said many years after: "I let you go Ralph".
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 8, 2011 - 04:27pm PT
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High Traverse, don't, never have and never will use a GriGri. The last thing I would ever do is to allow someone to lower me with one unless I had complete faith in them.
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tolman_paul
Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
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Put me in the don't have, nor can't ever see me using a gri gri or it's ilk.
If somebody can't handle an atc, sticht plate, munter etc, then they have absolutely no business belaying IM(notso)HO.
As to mentors, they can be great if you have the option. But I expect many of us managed to become confident and efficient climbers without a mentor.
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Degaine
climber
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I'm pretty sure my grandpa knew a bunch of you, including the OP. He used to tell stories about how all of you used to walk to school backwards uphill in the snow barefoot. He also told me how about the time before now was the good old days, where the women were all young and beautiful, and the beer was ice cold all day, every day.
Seriously, while good advice has been provided, including the OP, everyone seems to be looking at noobs through the glasses of experience, forgetting just how much one has learned through the years in order to have the privilege of being so judgmental.
Kind of like looking at teens and saying to yourself "there's no way in hell I ever acted like that!"
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 8, 2011 - 05:46pm PT
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Degaine, you have some very good points. We all our guilty of imaging that we were different (better?) than the current crop at different stages of our lives. As an ardent reader of history I suffer no such illusions. I am merely trying to ease the passage for many of today's beginning climbers from gym and sport climbing to multi pitch trad- a transition we didn't have to go thru in my era.
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G_Gnome
Trad climber
In the mountains... somewhere...
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I don't even think it is a problem to bring too big a rack and to take a long time setting up anchors, it is the packs and approach shoes to climb a two pitch slab that you are going to rap that seems ridiculous. And quite frankly, it would have seemed ridiculous to the 25 year old me too.
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Degaine
climber
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Hi donini,
I certainly appreciate the knowledge and experience that you're willing to share on this forum.
But, given the slight "those kids today" undertone of your first post, I could not help but respond in jest.
cheers
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pFranzen
Boulder climber
Portland, OR
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Nov 11, 2011 - 05:46pm PT
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So we got up a little after 7am, made breakfast, packed lunch, chose gear, packed up, etc and were on the road by about 9:45am, found the parking and started hiking by about 10:30am.
This sounds like their biggest problem, aside from too few headlamps. What were they thinking starting a full 12-hour day at 10:30?
Moving quickly with people who aren't used to it can sometimes be tricky from a personnel/morale standpoint. People don't like to be rushed, especially when they're in a situation that isn't 100% comfortable, but Jim and all you other old crusties are absolutely correct that there is a need for urgency. Finding a way to encourage a slow partner or party while not making them panicked and angry can be a good skill to have, and I'm sure it's something that guides are very adept at doing.
I have seen far too many young(er) climbers just assume that multi-pitch climbs take forever, so they approach the outing thinking that a 4-pitch climb is going to take the entire day.
The other thing that I just can't wrap my head around is why people get on routes (or worse-- get in line for routes) that already have 3 or 4 parties on them. If Crimson Chrysalis has 10 people stacked up from the base to the top of P3, just find another f'ing route for the day rather than setting yourself up for a midnight rappelling party.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - May 19, 2012 - 04:51pm PT
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Looks like an appropriate time for a bump.
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matlinb
Trad climber
Albuquerque
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May 20, 2012 - 12:03am PT
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One of the ways I have eased into carrying a lighter rack is to use a 100 feet of 6 mm as a tag line and have the second keep the extra gear I would normally take with me. That way if I really, really have to use that 2nd .75 I can pull it up.
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| Messages 1 - 79 of total 79 in this topic |
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