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Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Dec 9, 2012 - 03:55pm PT
The Grand Wall bolt ladder is recognized in the park's master plan (or rock climbing strategy) as of historical significance, and not to be tampered with. Replacing missing bolts, preferably in the existing holes with something like the original units, would likely be the way to go. It'll take a few decades to replicate the rusty nail atmosphere, and don't leave hangers on the bolts - it's way more fun to loop parachute cord over them. Nuts on most of the bolts would be OK, but leave about 5% without, and a few bent down a bit for extra cord-looping fun.

The Vancouver Rock Climbing Group at its fundraiser for Habitat for Humanity last night, at Cliffhanger in Vancouver. Last week they were at Cliffhanger in Coquitlam, next week at the Hive, a bouldering gym. They were having fun, and thought the event was going well.
Credit: Mighty Hiker
The guy hanging upside down with the red & white hat on is Joe, the organizer.
'Mo

Big Wall climber
Squamish, BC
Dec 9, 2012 - 04:34pm PT
Hello,

I am responding to your opinion on replacing hardware on the Baldwin Cooper bolt ladder. My opinion is to not do this. I believe that the old ladder is of historical value and I get a kick out of looking at it, I would however find it quite distasteful to see shimmering new hardware on this section of wall.

No one uses the bolt ladder anymore, and I believe you are using it because the thought of using the Merci Me approach is unpalatable: soaking, run out 5.8, by yourself, is an intimidating prospect! Although I think an adept aid climber could navigate past the busted rivets with some sort of cheater stick and I do agree that you shouldn't be hanging yourself and your wall rig off an original anchor, I do think you could bypass this anchor and use another modern anchor on this section of wall with a longer rope and a small pendulum.

It would be different deal if this were a standard pitch on a standard aid route eg (Cannabis Wall)But the Grand Wall has evolved and the use of new bolts on and around it should be considered carefully.
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
Dec 9, 2012 - 05:28pm PT
It will be best when all the bolts at Squamish attain "Historical Significance". Then we can cherish and worship construction hardware from afar,while reciting the Greek Classics, as it was meant to be...

1 1/4" Rawl split pin bolts would work fine in the vernacular and look like rusty lumps of carbon in no time.
thekidcormier

Gym climber
squamish, b.c.
Dec 9, 2012 - 05:30pm PT
Thanks MH and Mo, going to leave it be,

I got two pitches down, so any one who's doing the 5 buck per pitch donation is in for 10 so far...

Probably gonna get back at it early this week with either a hooking approach, or perhaps a blow torch and my free shoes.

I've tried hookng the second pitch in the rain on my Uncle Bens Ascent but wasn't able to find hook placements with in reach past the second bolt. Maybe a grappling hook on a ski pole will do the trick.
bmacd

Trad climber
100% Canadian
Dec 9, 2012 - 05:33pm PT
with Luke Cormier
with Luke Cormier
Credit: bmacd

To wait for dry rock and clear skies, might be the sensible thing to do.
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Dec 9, 2012 - 05:48pm PT
The Grand Wall bolt ladder is recognized in the park's master plan (or rock climbing strategy) as of historical significance, and not to be tampered with.

Oh, yes, much better to leave the existing crap in place. Any one who uses it might die, but that doesn't matter, does it, because the bible says "Thou must not change Squamish from the way it was thirty years ago" And what the hell, any deaths due to the non-tamper clause will, in time, also have historical significance.

What a load of total bullsh#t.

Sure the Grand Wall ascent has historical significance, but rusting-out quarter-inch split shafts as holy objects? Give me a break.
Big Mike

Trad climber
BC
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 9, 2012 - 05:50pm PT
+1000 ghost! It's cerro torre all over again! ;)
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Dec 9, 2012 - 06:02pm PT
Virtually no one uses the initial Grand Wall bolt ladder any more - Luke may be the first in quite some time. It's not a hazard to anyone. Some of the bolts are newer, for example due to more recent routes crossing or overlapping with it. A few are missing. If it isn't needed for climbing, and doesn't pose any harm, why not leave it as it is? It can quietly rust away, and we can recite Greek myths at Perry's next Friday (21st).

Perhaps Luke should be given a bye, and allowed to fix ropes from above on key areas that would otherwise be unclimbable when wet? Although there's snow on Bellygood today, and carrying up eight to ten ropes and the needed gear wouldn't be much fun.
bmacd

Trad climber
100% Canadian
Dec 9, 2012 - 06:13pm PT
Luke my offer to supply the machine heads to retro the old ladder still stands.

If the Balldwin Cooper bolts are so sacred the the ones on the pillar would not have gotten chopped, nor would Perry have replaced bolts on the upper bolt ladder to facilitate his lieback, and then the Squamish guides replaced how ever many else ?

The only precedent here is hypocrisy. The statement that they are part of the park master plan is a load of BS.

Fact is, these bolts are now, very dangerous, and were then, a lame ass Atrocity. Truly Squamishes own version of the Maestri route on Cerro Torre
Tami

Social climber
Canada
Dec 9, 2012 - 06:19pm PT
When is Perry's 'do at the Chief ? I thought it was on the Solstice ? Which is a Friday but not NEXT Friday. Isn't next Friday Ander's big Five Seven?

:-)
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
Dec 9, 2012 - 06:29pm PT
If it's a matter of expense, we should consult the ASCA.

If not, ask not for whom the bolt tolls...
Chief

climber
The NW edge of The Hudson Bay
Dec 9, 2012 - 08:12pm PT
Here's a novel concept.
It's called consideration of context.

I pulled the 1/4" bolts out from beside the Pillar after watching way too may people run for them in the days of hexes, then take horrifying lobs onto them with nothing backing them up.
By the way, they came out with shocking ease.
With the advent of SLCDs, the bolts had outlived their need.
I was also explicit that it would be reasonable (though unnecessary) to replace the originals with 3/8 stainless. So far no one's done it and probably won't.

As has been flogged ad nauseum, Baldwin and Cooper took some flak for their first ladder.
It's appropriate to make comparison to Maestri's ladders because in 62 the notion of the Diretissema was very much in vogue and Maestri wasn't the only protagonist, the Brandler Hasse on the Cima Grande as example.
All things considered, given the tools of the day and the fact B&C were first, the criticisms directed at them were easy shots from the safety of the bleachers.
With the advent of sticky rubber, better gear and a perspective gained on the big face routes on Middle along with a better sense of the local terrain, the BC ladders were bypassed via Merci Me at 11a A0 and Cruel Shoes 10d by yours truly.
The old ladders have fallen in to disuse and are at best an amusing anachronism and at worst an eyesore. While they have some interesting history, they are not in my view, deserving of designation as historically or culturally significant. It's hard to imagine any climbing artifice left in place worthy of such recognition.

Given my druthers, the remnants of the old ladder would be removed leaving opportunity for a cool free route linking the top of the Flake with Les MacDonald's legendary effort on the upper reaches of that smooth expanse. Conversely, replacing the bolts would be retrograde.

With regard to the bolted lieback into the Flats, as previously thrashed and debated, they were placed long before big cams were available and I suspect even todays #5 Camalots might be a bit small for the leaning off width. Having said that, technology will advance and perspectives change and these contrivances may too outlive their original necessity.
Big Mike

Trad climber
BC
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 9, 2012 - 08:30pm PT
I've tried hookng the second pitch in the rain on my Uncle Bens Ascent but wasn't able to find hook placements with in reach past the second bolt. Maybe a grappling hook on a ski pole will do the trick.

You got hosed by Merci Me that time until it dried out too.. What's wrong with having
a wet weather alternative via a bolt ladder which was established on the FA of the wall?

I think it's high time that we went and pulled all that old hardware off the wall and put it where it belongs. In a museum where it can be preserved rather than being left out to rot in the elements.
Relic

Social climber
Vancouver, BC
Dec 9, 2012 - 08:33pm PT
So you can't climb a bolt ladder or a 5.7 cuz its wet. Wow. You are so light. Maybe you should give puddle jumping a try.
Chief

climber
The NW edge of The Hudson Bay
Dec 9, 2012 - 08:48pm PT
Just to be clear, it's wet 5.8 with 80 foot fall potential, a bit more unforgiving than puddle jumping.
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Dec 9, 2012 - 08:54pm PT
Any body ask Ed Cooper?

Personally, if it was me the last thing I'd want as a legacy to my name would be some gross rust spots mucking up an otherwise gorgeous slab .... but thats just me.

Anyway, lets drink about it later and Luke why not switch to U Wall or something else that makes more sense? What matters more - Homes for the homeless or just another pointless bolt squabble?

By the way - get your comments into BC Parks regarding their intention to allow continued Heli Skiing in the Spearhead Range. For a very well reasoned and thorough explanation of why this should not be allowed read John Baldwins letter to the editor, in the last Whistler Pique.

http://www.piquenewsmagazine.com/whistler/letters-to-the-editor-for-the-week-of-december-6th/Content?oid=2442974

send comment to:

Jennie.Aikman@gov.bc.ca
Relic

Social climber
Vancouver, BC
Dec 9, 2012 - 08:57pm PT
Some puddles can be unforgivably deep.

I'm just trolling the poor bastard cuz he didn't come riding with us last wednesday.
Chief

climber
The NW edge of The Hudson Bay
Dec 9, 2012 - 09:00pm PT
bk, I made the same recommend to Luke re U Wall.
A way better alternative any time of the year.
bmacd

Trad climber
100% Canadian
Dec 9, 2012 - 09:18pm PT
Well if the lower bolts got replaced in a fashion that facilitated a future free ascent and left us setup with a still viable recreational aid line to gain grand for the keeners on a rainy day, then that section of rock is put to good use.

Just used the Lieback as evidence that no statute sez the ancient bolts can't be touched. I am 100% in favour of what you have done Perry don't get me wrong.

Just my view from the bleachers ...

Rusty bolts are not meant to be preserved in active climbing areas.
Big Mike

Trad climber
BC
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 9, 2012 - 09:19pm PT
^^^^^^^ +10000
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